Page 8875
1 Wednesday, 3 November 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.22 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
7 Before we go into anything, shall we go into private session
8 first. There's one matter I'd like to deal with in the private session.
9 [Private session]
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Page 8876
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11 Page 8876 redacted. Private session.
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Page 8877
1 (redacted)
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10 [Open session]
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
12 Mr. Tieger, you wanted to address the Chamber.
13 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President. Thank you very much.
14 I wanted to advise the Chamber that one of the witnesses affected
15 by yesterday's decision, KDZ477, was scheduled for next week. We will
16 attempt to substitute, at least during the course of next week, not
17 necessarily in the same precise time-frame, Witness KDZ244. I wanted to
18 alert the Defence and the Chamber to that effort. And we'll, of course,
19 alert the Court if there are any scheduling difficulties in that regard.
20 JUDGE KWON: Is 477 a protected witness?
21 MR. TIEGER: I was trying to recall. Yes, that's correct.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to say thank you for
24 these documents. They are not corps documents, they are police
25 documents, so we'll probably have them all.
Page 8878
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
2 There may be one matter I will raise at the end of today's
3 session that may affect the future witness scheduling. We'll see.
4 If the witness would kindly take the solemn declaration.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
6 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
7 WITNESS: KDZ485
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
10 Mr. Hayden.
11 MR. HAYDEN: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Good afternoon, Your Honours; good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
13 Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 90201, please, and this should not be
14 broadcast.
15 Examination by Mr. Hayden:
16 Q. Mr. Witness, without reading it out, can you confirm that that is
17 your name on the screen in front of you?
18 A. Yes.
19 MR. HAYDEN: Can this, please, be admitted under seal?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1903, under seal, Your Honours.
22 MR. HAYDEN:
23 Q. Mr. Witness, as discussed, your evidence in this case is going to
24 be submitted in writing, so let me address the formalities associated
25 with that submission.
Page 8879
1 Mr. Registrar, 65 ter 90200, please. And, again, this should not
2 be broadcast.
3 Mr. Witness, you have previously provided statements to the
4 Prosecution, and you have also testified in the cases of
5 Dragomir Milosevic and Momcilo Perisic. Now, looking at the screen in
6 front of you, do you see your signature at the bottom of the page?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you have an opportunity to review this statement before
9 appending your signature to it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And does the document accurately reflect the evidence you have
12 previously given the Tribunal?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Finally, if you were examined on the same topics today, would you
15 provide the same information to the Court?
16 A. Yes, I would.
17 MR. HAYDEN: I request the admission of this statement, under
18 seal.
19 JUDGE KWON: Are you minded to produce a public version with
20 redaction?
21 MR. HAYDEN: Yes, Mr. President. In keeping with our previous
22 practice, we shall provide a public version.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll give them a number.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 65 ter 90200 will be Exhibit P1904
25 under seal, and the public redacted version will be Exhibit P1905.
Page 8880
1 MR. HAYDEN: The following is a summary of the evidence contained
2 in that statement:
3 Witness 485 worked as a homicide inspector for the Sarajevo
4 Security Services from around April 1994 until the end of the conflict.
5 In this role, he participated in the investigation of shelling and
6 sniping incidents. He attended so many incidents of shelling and sniping
7 that he cannot remember how many he investigated.
8 His role in the on-site investigation team was to ensure that the
9 crime scene was secured and that each team member, which included
10 forensic technicians and ballistic experts, executed their role. And
11 observations and information obtained during this preliminary
12 investigation were included in an official report.
13 Among other investigations, the witness investigated four
14 scheduled incidents: Incident F-11, the firing on a passenger tram on
15 8 October 1994
16 22nd December 1994
17 Safeta Hadzica Street on 26 May 1994; and G-19, the shelling of
18 Markale Market on 28 August 1995
19 investigation identified the origin of the fire as Bosnian Serb-held
20 territory.
21 And that concludes the summary.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Hayden.
23 MR. HAYDEN: I now have some additional questions for the
24 witness.
25 Turning, firstly, to Scheduled Incident F-11, and if I could have
Page 8881
1 65 ter 09673, please. Once again, this document should not be broadcast.
2 Q. Mr. Witness, this is a report dated 10th of October, 1994, and it
3 concerns the firing on a tram on the 8th of October, 1994. Without
4 reading it out, does your name appear as one of the participants in the
5 investigation?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. HAYDEN: And if we can turn to page 2 of the English, leaving
8 the B/C/S where it is.
9 Q. At the bottom of both versions, it states that:
10 "Four entry holes were made by bullets. This was most probably
11 caused by the so-called 'Sijac Smrti,'" which is here translated as a
12 "Death Sower."
13 Mr. Witness, what type of weapon, to your knowledge, was known as
14 a "Death Sower?"
15 A. What I know, although I am not an expert in fire-arms, it's a
16 submachine-gun that fired rounds at very high velocity, and I heard
17 people saying that anyone who found themselves in the cross-hairs of such
18 a weapon was unable to run away quickly enough because the gun fired so
19 quickly, and that's why it got the nickname "Death Sower."
20 MR. HAYDEN: Can this document please be admitted under seal.
21 Again, the Prosecution is minded to also provide public redacted versions
22 of each of these associated exhibits in due course.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Hayden.
24 That will be admitted.
25 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1906 under seal, and the public
Page 8882
1 redacted version will be Exhibit P1907.
2 MR. HAYDEN: 65 ter 09906, please, Mr. Registrar, and turning to
3 Scheduled Incident G-19.
4 Q. Mr. Witness, had you ever visited the Markale Market area prior
5 to or during the month of August 1995?
6 A. Yes. I went to that part of Sarajevo
7 war and after the war.
8 Q. Can you describe briefly what you observed at the Markale Market
9 or the area of the Markale Market on any typical day?
10 A. It's a market-place where people buy and sell all sorts of
11 products, including meat and dairy products. One part of the market is
12 closed, and the other part is in the open air. What you could observe at
13 any time before the war, during the war, and after the war was that many
14 civilians gathered and concentrated in that and similar places because
15 they needed to buy things for their own needs.
16 Q. And do these observations include the alleyways around
17 Markale Market, itself?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Witness, you participated in the investigation of the
20 shelling of Markale Market on 28 August 1995, and you wrote the report
21 that we see in front of us. That report states that your team arrived on
22 the scene at 12.15 p.m.
23 explosion. Can you briefly describe what you found, arriving on the
24 scene?
25 A. I'm trying to find that passage, because I can't see the
Page 8883
1 beginning of the report on the screen.
2 MR. HAYDEN: If we might move to page 2 of the B/C/S, please.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From what I see in this report, it
4 is correct that we arrived at 1215 hours. And my first impression, my
5 first observation, was that officers from the local Police Administration
6 had sealed off the site, meaning that they closed access to the very spot
7 hit by the projectile, and they closed all the alleyways leading to the
8 site. And when we arrived to one of those main streets -- to the
9 main street, which is one of the main streets in Sarajevo, you could see
10 a lot of personal items scattered around, items that had belonged to the
11 casualties, shards of glass, fragments on the surrounding buildings, but
12 it was immediately obvious that there were no bodies of anyone killed or
13 anyone wounded. That is what I was able to see at the first moment.
14 Q. You mentioned that there were no bodies of killed or wounded.
15 Was this typical when you arrived on the scene of a shelling or sniping
16 incident you investigated?
17 A. Yes. In most cases where I did the on-site investigation, that
18 was the rule. We usually did not find any of the casualties still lying
19 there.
20 Q. And in your view, why was it that both the wounded as well as the
21 deceased bodies were moved from these scenes almost immediately after the
22 incident?
23 A. Well, surviving eye-witnesses or anyone who happened to be there
24 at the time of the explosion, without even checking whether any of the
25 people lying there were still alive or not, rushed to move them, by any
Page 8884
1 transport vehicle available, to the hospital, probably also because there
2 was rarely a doctor around who would carry out the triage, to see who was
3 dead, who was seriously wounded, or who was lightly wounded, or who would
4 be able to assign any priorities in transporting people to the hospital.
5 Even when the ambulance arrived, the physician and the paramedics who
6 came with the ambulance were able to take perhaps one person to the
7 hospital. The rest was up to the passersby. That's what I think, and
8 that's what I also heard from other people while conducting my business.
9 That's the main reason why casualties and the dead were taken away before
10 the on-site investigation team arrived. And also the interval between
11 the explosion and our arrival was more than one hour. I don't think that
12 even the bodies of the dead, let alone those injured, should have been
13 left waiting for us.
14 Q. Turning to page 2 of the English and page 3 of the B/C/S, at the
15 end of the report, Mr. Witness, it indicates that 35 persons were killed
16 and 78 wounded, and that lists of the victims and killed are attached to
17 the report. Did you participate in the identification of these listed
18 persons?
19 A. Yes, I did. This is mainly data that we got then. I don't know
20 if this is the final number of those killed, 35. It's hard for me to
21 remember. It's been a long time ago. I don't remember if anyone who was
22 seriously wounded in the meantime died from sustained injuries in
23 hospital, but this is the initial data that we were able to get initially
24 at the medical institution; to be precise, in the two hospitals, the
25 State Hospital
Page 8885
1 Q. And when you went to these two hospitals and compiled this list,
2 how could you tell that these persons were killed or wounded as a result
3 of the explosion at Markale Market, as opposed to some other cause of
4 death or injury?
5 A. Most of them had their identification documents with them, and we
6 were able to establish their identity on the basis of their IDs that they
7 had on them. Another source of information were their relatives, closer
8 or more distant relatives, who also provided information regarding those
9 who were killed or wounded. So these were sources for the identification
10 of those persons. Naturally, we got some information also from the
11 medical personnel, who also got their information in the same way. So it
12 was either us or together with the medical personnel who got this
13 information about the persons in the hospital.
14 Q. You've identified how you were able to ID the bodies or the
15 wounded persons. I'm also interested as to how you were able to link the
16 death or injury of these persons to the Markale Market explosion. How
17 could you tell that they had been killed or wounded in that explosion?
18 A. When we came to the hospital, we went to the place where the
19 wounded are admitted and we also went to the morgue. At both those
20 places -- actually, in the morgue, we met the forensic experts, who told
21 us -- who confirmed for us that the persons that I listed here as killed
22 from the explosion -- said that all of them had blast injuries, injuries
23 from fragments of the explosive device. Regardless of what this
24 forensics expert confirmed for us, we, ourselves -- I mean, I went to so
25 many investigations on-scene. This also applied to the judge as well as
Page 8886
1 those present from the United Nations. We could all see that these were
2 blast injuries, and they are definitely very different types of injuries
3 from injuries caused by projectiles fired from a fire-arm. So even I, as
4 a layperson, was able to see that these were really people who were hurt
5 in the explosion.
6 MR. HAYDEN: I tender the document in front of us as an exhibit
7 under seal.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1908, under seal, Your Honours. And
10 the public redacted version will be Exhibit P1909.
11 MR. HAYDEN:
12 Q. Finally, Mr. Witness, aside from the incidents that I described
13 in your summary before, did the shelling incidents that you investigated
14 in 1994 and 1995 generally involve fatalities?
15 A. For the most part, yes. I belonged to the Homicide Department,
16 or murders, so this is what kind of investigations on-scene I and my
17 colleagues carried out. We would go out to investigate on the scene when
18 a person was killed.
19 Q. And did that include civilian fatalities?
20 A. Regardless of what kind of a victim it was, what I did and what I
21 wrote about -- actually, my reports mostly had to deal with civilian
22 casualties.
23 Q. And when you arrived to investigate a fatality, did you take
24 steps to determine whether there had been military activity in the area
25 immediately prior to the incident you were investigating? And if so,
Page 8887
1 what steps were those?
2 A. Before we would go to the scene, we would usually get in touch --
3 actually, we would usually be informed by the local police, the police
4 officers in the location, what the security situation was and if the
5 conditions existed for us to go out there safely, arrive across town
6 safely, and what the situation was at the scene. The local police
7 officers were our source for that kind of information, and, of course, we
8 would gather information from them, if there was any kind of combat
9 action underway at the point in time when the incident occurred for which
10 they were requesting an on-scene investigation.
11 Q. And in your view, were the civilian fatalities that you
12 investigated generally the result of military exchanges, what is commonly
13 referred to as "collateral damage"?
14 A. A large majority of the fatalities in the events that I
15 investigated were casualties that occurred outside of any type of
16 military activity. When I say "military activity," I mean fighting
17 between the warring parties. Usually -- I mean, Sarajevo is not a large
18 town, so if there was any fighting, people knew that very well. They had
19 learned how to live in such conditions. So whenever any kind of combat
20 action is sensed, very few or practically no civilians were out in the
21 streets or in places where they would be exposed to fire. Therefore, in
22 those investigations that I took part in, these people were not
23 collateral damage; they were the actual victims.
24 MR. HAYDEN: No further questions, Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
Page 8888
1 MR. HAYDEN: At this stage, I tender the remaining associated
2 exhibits. I note that since filing the notification, none of the 65 ter
3 numbers have become exhibits, so it's just those that were already listed
4 with their exhibit number.
5 JUDGE KWON: Of particular interest would be those investigation
6 reports signed and authenticated by the witness. There are four other
7 reports: 9688, 9769, 9821, and 9921. All that witness did in previous
8 proceedings is that he authenticated them. So in that regard, I have
9 some question whether it would form an indispensable and inseparable part
10 of this transcript, but not as an indispensable and inseparable part of
11 this previous statement, but on the basis of the witness's answer given
12 today, that he would have given the same answers had he been examined
13 again, so we take it that he authenticated it today, so on that basis
14 I think we can admit them, unless they are objected to.
15 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: Any other objections?
17 So your intention is to produce all the investigation reports and
18 other exhibits, to produce a public version of them with proper
19 redaction?
20 MR. HAYDEN: That's right, they should all be admitted under
21 seal, and we will produce a public version.
22 JUDGE KWON: Okay. With that understanding, they will be all
23 admitted, and the proper exhibit numbers will be circulated by the Court
24 Deputy.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
Page 8889
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 Now, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Good afternoon to everyone.
5 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Good afternoon, Witness.
8 A. Good afternoon.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just before you start your examination, I'd like to
10 remind you that whenever we are to discuss any information which may
11 reveal the witness's identity, we should go into private session. Bear
12 that in mind, please.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. So far, it went well.
14 JUDGE KWON: And whenever you may feel that any question and any
15 answers you may give may reveal your identity, please ask for the private
16 session, please, before you answer, Mr. Witness.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 I hope everything went well so far, and also we have half an hour
21 delay, so the witness need not be overly concerned.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. But, first of all, I would like to ask you, sir, why you are so
24 committed to the protective measures.
25 A. I don't know how relevant that is. I stated my reasons, they
Page 8890
1 were accepted, so I really wouldn't like to explain why.
2 JUDGE KWON: You don't have to.
3 If you'd like to discuss it, we should go into private session,
4 first of all.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go into private session
6 briefly, please.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Hayden.
8 MR. HAYDEN: Your Honour, I believe the Court has already ruled
9 on this. The representations have been made by the witness to the
10 Prosecution, and he's confirmed those representations today. I'm not
11 sure there is any further information that will change the Chamber's
12 ruling.
13 [Trial Chamber confers]
14 JUDGE KWON: We are in private session? No.
15 The Chamber made it clear that the previous protective measures
16 would continue, but I take it Mr. Karadzic is not -- I take it that
17 Mr. Karadzic is not asking for the variation of protective measures, and
18 the Chamber is of the view he may be entitled to put some questions in
19 relation to those protective measures to test the credibility of the
20 witness. But as a matter of practicality, I'm not sure whether there
21 would be many points on that.
22 If you would like to put some questions, we need to go into
23 private session.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the Chamber's assessment of my
25 intentions or gauging of my intentions is absolutely correct.
Page 8891
1 Can we go into private session?
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 [Private session]
4 (redacted)
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Page 8892
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Page 8895
1 (redacted)
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5 [Open session]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Thank you, Witness, for your contact with the Defence team and
9 with me via videolink. This helped us a little bit to go a little bit
10 faster through a number of circumstances, because we have a number of
11 incidents that are going to require a lot of time.
12 We agreed during the interview -- you informed us that you
13 carried out many investigations and that you did not keep records of
14 that, so that you don't know the number, but that there are records of
15 that in the MUP archives. That's what you believe; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, I said that I did not have a private diary, I didn't keep a
17 private diary, but I did write reports about what I did and where I went.
18 And in the same way that this Court and this OTP has records, in the same
19 way the records of my work should be in the police archives.
20 Q. Thank you. You said that the investigations were carried out
21 according to the provisions of the then enforced Law on Criminal
22 Procedure and Rules of Service, and that you only could find some,
23 perhaps, comments or something lacking in these reports because they were
24 done in wartime circumstances?
25 A. It's correct that the investigations were carried out according
Page 8896
1 to the laws and the Rules of Service at the time, and I said that if
2 there are any errors or anything that is unclear in my reports, it's
3 possible that this happened only because of the circumstances in which we
4 were doing our work; the war conditions, primarily.
5 Q. Thank you. How would that circumstance affect your reports?
6 A. Could you be more specific? Which circumstance? So far, it
7 hasn't been said that an error had been found that I was not able to
8 explain. If you have something specific in mind, please tell me.
9 Q. Well, you said that the possibility of repeated fire on the site
10 resulted in hasty work, which might explain any deficiencies in
11 investigative actions?
12 A. One of the reasons why an error could possibly occur -- I said
13 "possibly," but if you have a specific error in mind that needs to be
14 explained, or some deficiency in my report, please put it to me and I'll
15 try to explain.
16 Q. How many times did it happen, Witness, that the crime scene was
17 hit again while the investigation was ongoing?
18 If I can help you, look at item 8 in your amalgamated statement,
19 where you say that:
20 "At times, it was a problem. It was risky to perform our
21 procedures. There was always a possibility for the location to be fired
22 at again."
23 How many times, out of the countless investigations you
24 conducted, did it happen that a location was hit again during
25 investigation?
Page 8897
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, do you have your statement in front of
2 you, or can you answer the question without having to see your statement?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can answer the question, and the
4 answer is very brief.
5 I said, even in the statement, that there was a possibility. I
6 didn't say it ever happened. It didn't actually happen to us. But why
7 was there a possibility? Because our chiefs told us that our radio
8 traffic was susceptible to listening, to eavesdropping, and that the
9 enemy might hear what we were doing and where. So I didn't say that it
10 happened. I said there was a possibility, and we were warned about that
11 possibility. And we tried to finish our work in the open air as quickly
12 as possible.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Q. But did those who fired the initial shell that was being
15 investigated have the possibility of seeing that an important team had
16 arrived, and since the MUP had arrived, the target could be profitable?
17 And how is it possible, then, that in hundreds of cases, it never
18 happened that they fired a shell again and thus killed people who could
19 have been a profitable target?
20 A. I don't know whether I ever confirmed or said anywhere that I, as
21 a policeman, participated in any military activities. Neither I nor my
22 colleagues from my department, or other departments of the criminal
23 investigation police, ever participated in military activities. I only
24 said we used our own radio communications, and we were warned that our
25 radio traffic might be eavesdropped on, and that our location could be
Page 8898
1 discovered at any time.
2 Considering the circumstances prevailing in Sarajevo and how
3 encircled it was, whether somebody was able to look at us, to observe us,
4 or to listen to us, it's quite certain that it was a possibility, but I
5 cannot positively answer whether somebody from their position was able to
6 see us or establish visual contact well enough to see that we were the
7 police, especially since I was always wearing civilian clothes, I had no
8 police markings, and I said that I belonged to the part of the civilian
9 police that worked in "Mufti." Whether somebody could have watched us
10 while we were working, I really don't know and I can't give you a
11 positive answer. That they were able to eavesdrop, they were. Anyone
12 who knew the city and the streets in the city could have a very good idea
13 of where we were.
14 Q. Please don't feel offended or defensive.
15 If somebody who fired already and knows where they fired - they
16 have the trig point - they can expect well that there will be a lot of
17 people concentrating there very soon. Have you heard ever that a single
18 investigator got killed from such repeated fire?
19 A. I said already that it never happened to me, personally, but we
20 had been warned about such a possibility. I am not aware that any of my
21 colleagues died in precisely those circumstances, but I cannot say
22 positively that such things did not happen. It's just that I'm not aware
23 of any.
24 Q. Can I draw your attention to paragraph 10 in your statement,
25 where you say that the direction of fire was determined in cases of
Page 8899
1 shelling, and you said in our interview that the distance could not be
2 determined.
3 A. Not when we talked, no. I did not say, when we talked, that the
4 distance could not be determined. Speaking about that, what I said was
5 that the direction from which the projectile was fired was determined by
6 the bomb squad team and ballistics team. I wrote in my report whatever
7 they told me on that subject. I was not the person who determined the
8 direction, or claimed that a projectile came from that location or
9 another location, or that it was possible or impossible to determine it.
10 I just said that it was not part of my job.
11 Q. All right. But did they do their job according to procedure?
12 A. Again, I don't think it's a good question for me. I am not an
13 expert. I don't know much about the methods they use, the aids they use,
14 the tables they use. I don't know these things. And I didn't interfere
15 much with their work, if I can put it that way. For me, it was
16 sufficient that they give me a preliminary estimate that a projectile had
17 landed from such and such a direction, plus/minus 5 degrees, that's how
18 it usually went, and I put that in my report.
19 Q. I'm looking at paragraph 6 of your statement. That's what I
20 mean. It says there that you made sure that all members of the team did
21 their job properly, and that's what I'm asking you. Did you make sure
22 that they did their job properly?
23 Now, tell me, Witness, in paragraph 11 you said, very honestly,
24 that there were not many ballistics experts available. How did it go
25 when there was no ballistics experts around? Who did that part of the
Page 8900
1 work? You can feel free to use your statement. It's paragraph 11.
2 A. If I may go back to what you asked me, you asked first about
3 paragraph 6. I said my job was to provide the right conditions for them
4 to do their job properly, and to make sure they're not interfered with.
5 When I said there was a shortage of ballistics experts, there is
6 some truth in that. However, if it happened that ballistics experts were
7 unable to come to a particular crime scene, especially in incidents where
8 it was possible for CID
9 then they did it, because they had training as part of their job. In
10 easier incidents, where it was easier to determine the direction of fire,
11 scenes-of-crimes officers from the Criminal Investigation Department did
12 that.
13 Q. And did they do it at the scene or in their offices?
14 A. I can only remember one such incident where one person was killed
15 and ballistics experts were unable to come, and in that case only the
16 SOCO, the scene-of-crime officer, determined the fire.
17 Q. In all other cases, it was the ballistics experts?
18 A. It was, in all incidents that I can remember, the ballistics
19 expert or the bomb squad expert. There's only one case that I remember
20 when the ballistics expert was absent, and that was gun-fire and sniping
21 in Dobrinja settlement.
22 JUDGE KWON: Now put your question.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Those other things concerning the trams and the sites we'll deal
25 with later when we come to specific incidents.
Page 8901
1 You said during the interview that your report alone would be
2 insufficient for court purposes.
3 A. You have to make yourself clearer. What do you mean? What do
4 you mean, it would be insufficient?
5 Q. Well, I asked you, Would a report like yours be sufficient for
6 you to appear before a court in Bosnia
7 report, you would not be unable -- you would be unable to do anything
8 before the Court in Bosnia
9 A. I, alone, would not be doing anything with my report. Somebody
10 would have to assess my report, and that would be the person presenting
11 the case to the Court. I said my report was just one of the many
12 documents the Court received. In addition to my report, there were
13 reports of everyone else who was part of the team; first of all, the
14 report of the scene-of-crimes officer, the ballistic report and the bomb
15 squad report. My report was just one of the attachments to the criminal
16 report that was sent to the prosecutor's office. And how worthy or
17 unworthy my report was, I am not the best person to estimate. It was up
18 to the prosecutor to determine how solid it was.
19 Q. Thank you. You said in your statement that you would wait for
20 others to give you their reports, and then you made yours. Is it then
21 the case that your report is some sort of synthesis?
22 A. I'd like to see that statement where I allegedly said I waited
23 for other reports. No, I did not say that. I said I wrote my report.
24 That was sent to a department, which at that time was called the Genocide
25 Department, and they collected all the other reports. My report was only
Page 8902
1 my report, describing what preceded my arrival at the scene, what I found
2 at the scene, and what I saw; nothing else.
3 Q. We'll find that. It's somewhere in the amalgamated statement and
4 in your prior evidence.
5 Now, did the BH Army have so-called "Death Sowers"?
6 A. I don't know.
7 Q. So if you mention a Death Sower, your first thought would be the
8 Bosnian Serb side?
9 A. I would not have any thoughts of any side. I just told you I'm
10 not aware whether the BH Army had that weapon. I just told you that in
11 one incident, it seemed to have been used by the other side, that's all.
12 Q. Did the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of the Interior know
13 whether Death Sowers were available to the BH Army?
14 A. I'm not the right person to ask this question. I told you that I
15 had no contact with -- in my work with the army or members of the army,
16 because I did strictly police work, work that was within the purview of
17 the Homicide Department.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get 1D429 in e-court,
19 please.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Could I ask you: Where is the dental clinic?
22 A. Somewhere close to a place called Bjelave.
23 Q. Is that where you lived, in that part of Sarajevo?
24 A. I lived in a part of Sarajevo
25 sorry, Bjelave.
Page 8903
1 Q. Can you confirm this format and the person who signed this?
2 Chief of the Security Services Centre, Sarajevo?
3 A. I cannot recognise the form. I wasn't in a position to look at
4 documents like this, especially since I can see it's marked as "Secret"
5 or "Confidential." So this was not accessible to me. I do know the
6 person who signed the document. He was my chief for a while.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we look at the next page, please.
9 For the others to know, because we don't have information, this
10 is information of the 19th of October, 1993, and the chief of the
11 Security Services is informing his superiors about the conduct of the
12 11th Independent Battalion of the Army of the Republic of Bosnia
13 Herzegovina
14 ground-floor premises of the School of Dentistry
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Do you agree that that is the first sentence?
17 A. Yes, that is the first sentence.
18 Q. Thank you. We can't really manage the rest, but it says at the
19 bottom:
20 "In front of the sighted bunker, there is a concrete slab, 30 by
21 10 metres, on which four vehicles are parked, two ambulances, as well as
22 one an armoured combat vehicle. This vehicle is very interesting
23 because ..."
24 Can we look at the next page.
25 "... because there is a guard with a machine-gun inside it, a
Page 8904
1 so-called 'Death Sower'."
2 Is that what it says?
3 A. I really wasn't able to follow you. I'm trying to find where
4 that is.
5 Q. The first sentence at the top:
6 "This vehicle was very interesting for the reason that there was
7 a guard in it with a machine-gun called the 'Death Sower'."
8 A. At the top, I can just see the end of that sentence. Probably,
9 the beginning is on the previous page, but that's probably what it says.
10 Q. Thank you. Somewhere in the middle, I'm going to read:
11 "Members of the said unit have been boasting how they have 13
12 machine-guns, Death Sowers, as well as no one can do anything to them."
13 They're also mentioning two nitroglycerine rifles. It's
14 somewhere towards the middle of the page, where it says "2 STMB."
15 A. Yes, I see that.
16 Q. Thank you. If I'm correct, this is the clinic, and between it
17 and the Medical Faculty, there was the former Nemanjina Street; is that
18 correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Can we tender this document, please?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If I may just add that, from
23 whatever I was able to see, this is a document from 1993. I would just
24 like to draw your attention to the fact that I was not in town at the
25 time and I was not living in the part of town called Bjelave at that
Page 8905
1 time.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, but you are not the
3 problem here but the Death Sowers --
4 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to, we'll mark it for
5 identification pending translation.
6 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
7 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, I wanted to raise a general matter with
8 respect to the documents that are being marked for identification. I
9 raised this with Mr. Robinson earlier.
10 I had noted the increasing number of documents that are not
11 translated, and so I inquired about the process for attempting to ensure,
12 to the extent possible, that there are translations when documents are
13 presented. I understand that that effort has essentially been abandoned
14 by the Defence, and we have no longer any realistic expectation of
15 receiving translations for documents -- well, other than those that may
16 already be up-loaded in the e-court -- and that would even include
17 documents that have been translated, are available on EDS, but will not
18 be identified as such when presented in court.
19 I raise that not to necessarily revisit the issue. We've been
20 attempting to cope with it as well as possible, but I think the problem
21 is -- the problem that it creates, as we're attempting to assimilate the
22 significance of a document on the spot, are obvious. And in addition, I
23 raise it because I want to ensure that when translations finally come
24 back, that that does not mean the automatic admission of the document,
25 because it will still be incumbent on us then to finally review the
Page 8906
1 document once we finally have the opportunity to do so.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. You beat the Chamber in
3 raising this. The Chamber was waiting for a moment to raise this
4 concern.
5 It's imperative for the Defence to prepare the English
6 translation well in advance, while understanding the difficulties
7 preparing for the Defence. It's time-consuming when we deal with any
8 untranslated document. We'll come to that issue later on.
9 We give the number for this.
10 THE REGISTRAR: MFI
11 JUDGE KWON: And we'll have a break for 25 minutes and resume at
12 five past 4.00.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 It would really be good to dwell a little bit on the matter of
15 translations and also on the resources of the Defence, and perhaps at the
16 first opportunity we could place this on the agenda.
17 [The witness stands down]
18 --- Recess taken at 3.42 p.m.
19 --- On resuming at 4.08 p.m.
20 JUDGE KWON: There is a matter the Chamber wishes to deal with in
21 the absence of the witness. It's sort of an oral ruling.
22 The Chamber is seized of the accused's 26th motion for finding of
23 disclosure violation and for remedial measures, which makes reference to
24 the disclosure of an additional 14.276 pages of documents by the
25 Prosecution on 13th and 22nd October 2010 pursuant to Rule 68. A
Page 8907
1 decision on whether this amounts to a disclosure violation will be issued
2 in due course, along with the decisions on the pending 22nd and 24th
3 motions for finding of disclosure violations.
4 Irrespective of whether the disclosure of this substantial
5 quantity of material at this stage constitutes a violation of the
6 Prosecution's obligation to disclose potentially exculpatory material to
7 the accused on an ongoing basis, and as soon as practicable after such
8 material comes into the Prosecution's possession, the Chamber is of the
9 view that the sheer volume of this material is such that it is in the
10 interests of justice to suspend the proceedings temporarily. This is to
11 allow the accused and his team time to conduct the necessary review of
12 the material and, where appropriate, make use of it in his ongoing
13 cross-examination of Prosecution witnesses and preparations for the
14 Defence phase of the case.
15 The Chamber reminds the accused that it is his task, as lead
16 counsel in his own Defence team, to properly organise and co-ordinate the
17 review of this material, and to prioritise documents which seem most
18 pertinent to upcoming witnesses. The period of time given for the review
19 is not premised on a calculation of the time necessary to conduct a
20 detailed examination of all the documents, but rather, on the time
21 required to assess the material, as a whole, and identify those which
22 must be given the most immediate attention.
23 In determining the period of suspension, the Chamber also takes
24 into consideration the significant number of violations by the
25 Prosecution of its disclosure obligation under 66(A)(ii) and Rule 68
Page 8908
1 which have been found to date. While, individually, it may be said that
2 the accused has not suffered prejudice by the late disclosure of certain
3 documents, the Chamber is increasingly troubled by the potential
4 cumulative effect of such late disclosure. The Chamber reminds the
5 Prosecution that the size and complexity of this case is not an excuse
6 for its failure to properly organise itself to ensure that disclosure is
7 carried out in accordance with the Rules. Indeed, in the pre-trial phase
8 the Prosecution was urged to reduce the scope of the case, or to find
9 ways to divide it into more manageable pieces, in the interests of a fair
10 and expeditious trial. The Prosecution represented that it was ready for
11 trial in 2009, but apparently ensuring that it had fully complied with
12 the dead-lines set by the Pre-Trial Judge for disclosure was not fully
13 reflected in that assertion. The Chamber, therefore, reiterates that the
14 Prosecution - I mean the Office of the Prosecutor as a whole - must take
15 seriously its disclosure obligations and ensure that all necessary
16 resources are dedicated to ensuring timely disclosure of material to this
17 accused, as, indeed, to all other accused at this Tribunal.
18 Taking all these factors into account, the Chamber finds that it
19 is necessary to suspend the trial proceedings for a period of one month,
20 as soon as possible. We will finish hearing the witnesses scheduled for
21 this week. We will also hear evidence next week from those witnesses who
22 are already in The Hague
23 shall suspend the proceedings for a month, and resume on a date and time
24 to be notified to the parties. Therefore, Mr. Tieger, we expect you to
25 advise us, by tomorrow morning, which witnesses we will thus hear from
Page 8909
1 next week.
2 We are also cognisant of the fact that there are certain
3 witnesses scheduled for later this month whose evidence is locked in to
4 particular dates. We hope that you will make your best efforts to
5 reschedule them. However, should there be one whose evidence is
6 scheduled for sometime in this period whom it is impossible to
7 reschedule, we will consider hearing the evidence of that witness on the
8 currently scheduled date, so long as you advise us in writing by close of
9 business on Wednesday, 10th of November, who that witness is and why,
10 despite your best efforts, he or she cannot be rescheduled. Should it be
11 necessary to hear such a witness, the Chamber will consider the impact
12 thereof on the end-date for that period of suspension.
13 That's the oral ruling, and we'll bring in the witness again.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like to express my
15 gratitude and -- gratitude for your understanding. But I'm just
16 wondering if perhaps the Prosecution doesn't wish to be rid of this case
17 by bringing us into such a position that the case could be dismissed
18 before the beginning of the case defence.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: I just want to -- I don't want to respond. I just
21 hope the Court appreciates that I don't rise to the bait of such
22 outlandish statements and provocation.
23 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Tieger, we would have been very surprised if
24 you had.
25 [The witness takes the stand]
Page 8910
1 JUDGE KWON: Shall we open the blinds.
2 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 Q. Witness, sir, I would like to go through a small part or number
5 of your investigations as soon as possible.
6 Did you take part in the investigation of the shelling of the
7 Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina building on the 8th of December,
8 1994?
9 A. I can't remember now. If you do have that report, perhaps you
10 would be kind enough to show it to me and then I confirm it.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Can we look at 1D2721 without broadcasting it outside, page 2.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Until then: Witness, did the CSB treat in the same way all the
15 incidents where, for example, there was civilian casualties or civilian
16 buildings were hit, and did they differentiate such incidents from those
17 that suffered damage in fighting?
18 A. As far as I know, we treated all incidents in the same way, and
19 we acted or worked in the same way.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 1 of this
21 document. Perhaps it's a good thing that you saw the signature. Can we
22 make sure that this is not broadcast, then. Anyway, can we look at
23 page 1. Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Did the CSB
Page 8911
1 military targets?
2 A. As far as I know, it did not.
3 Q. It conducted exactly the same investigations in the case of
4 civilian targets and legitimate military targets; is that right?
5 A. As far as I know, when I went for investigations, and from what I
6 could see, we treated all incidents in the same way.
7 Q. Other than the first person on the list, can you please tell me
8 the training or the qualifications of each of these people on the list?
9 Let's say number 2, what was the education?
10 A. Higher Administrative College.
11 Q. Go on. 3?
12 A. I think he was a graduate of law school. As for number 4 and
13 number 5, I really couldn't tell. I don't know. I'm not able to tell
14 you, either, for 7 or 8, number 9 -- no, no, I really couldn't tell you
15 what the education of the others was, or their qualifications. I can
16 only say it for 2 or 3, because I know that myself for a fact. I don't
17 know about the others.
18 Q. Can you tell me, the person under number 2, why is that person
19 qualified or on what grounds are they able to be the head of the criminal
20 investigations team, with or without the presence of the investigation
21 judge?
22 A. Well, his training, education, and his experience qualify him for
23 that job, and, of course, fulfilling the terms that are set for that
24 particular post.
25 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us, Administrative School
Page 8912
1 school for administrative personnel; isn't that right?
2 A. In the diploma which you get after you graduate from that school,
3 you are granted the title of administrative lawyer. So you are not a
4 graduated lawyer but an administrative lawyer.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that this team investigated this
6 incident of the 8th of December, 1994, when a section of the Presidency
7 building was hit? Is that correct?
8 A. Yes, this was the team that went to the site and conducted an
9 investigation there. I don't see that it says in my report that they
10 conducted the complete investigation. It just says that the on-scene
11 investigation team went and did their job.
12 Q. Do you remember which part of the building was struck?
13 A. I'm trying to find that here in my report and to confirm that,
14 but I think that this was a part that is facing Trebevic, that is, the
15 southern side.
16 Q. In this paragraph beginning: "By inspecting the scene of the
17 incident ...," this is the fourth paragraph after the names, is it true
18 that the struck kitchen premises of the Ministry of Defence area is
19 located at the southern side of the Presidency building? Is that
20 correct?
21 A. Yes, that's what it says in the report.
22 Q. Then does this make the building a legitimate military target?
23 A. Well, I'm not the person who would be able to determine what is a
24 legitimate military target and what isn't. Probably there is somebody
25 who could make that evaluation, but these were -- this was a part where
Page 8913
1 the administrative area of the Ministry of Defence was.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness repeat the rest of his
3 answer, and could Mr. Karadzic repeat his question.
4 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters couldn't hear the last part of your
5 answer, Mr. Witness. You stopped, in terms of interpretation:
6 "But there were -- this was a part where the administrative area
7 of the Ministry of Defence was."
8 Did you say anything else from there?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that's from what I know
10 was the administrative part of the building, and that at the time when I
11 was there, I didn't see -- well, I saw that it was a kitchen, that it was
12 being used by the Ministry of Defence, but I didn't see any armed
13 soldiers in that area.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. But you did see that it was a kitchen, and you knew that it was
16 the Ministry of Defence kitchen, just as it says in the report; is that
17 correct?
18 A. It states in the report that that was a kitchen that was being
19 used, not that it's their property. So they were using it, they were
20 probably coming there, but I don't know that this belongs to them. I
21 just wrote that it was being used by them.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we have 1D2629, please.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And can I ask you to confirm or deny that this is a document by
Page 8914
1 the president of the Presidency, who is writing a letter to the prime
2 minister, in which he said:
3 "You promised that you were going to free up some rooms in the
4 Presidency buildings, and nothing came of that."
5 And then he says:
6 "We're only using 30 per cent, three salons, and at the same time
7 the government in the same building is using 150 rooms."
8 And then it says -- you can look at this part here, where it
9 says:
10 "There is another problem. The Chetniks are shooting at the
11 Presidency building and are constantly stating that they are doing that
12 because the Ministry of Defence is located there. They know it. It
13 doesn't matter what the Chetniks say, but this is something that UNPROFOR
14 is telling us as well. As far they're concerned, this is a military
15 facility. Also, the building has been entered in the Registry of
16 Cultural Monuments, and such buildings, according to The Hague Convention
17 and according to our laws, should not have anything in them that would
18 constitute a military target, and that is why, when you're considering
19 relocating, the first thing that should be relocated would be the
20 Ministry of Defence. In town, allegedly, there are two more buildings,
21 the property of the republic, which, for unknown reasons, have not been
22 taken over. One of them is in Dositejeva Street, 20 offices, and the
23 second one is in the Kesovanija Street, 40 offices. And the second one
24 in the Kesovanija Street, 40 offices."
25 And so on and so forth.
Page 8915
1 Is that the signature by Mr. Izetbegovic, the late
2 Mr. Izetbegovic?
3 A. Well, I was never in a position to see documents that were signed
4 by the president of the Presidency, so I really can't tell whether this
5 is an original document or not. I cannot confirm its authenticity. All
6 I can say is that I am familiar with the name Dr. Haris Silajdzic and the
7 name of the late president, Mr. Alija Izetbegovic. I didn't have the
8 opportunity of receiving any document directly from him, so I really
9 never saw any document that he, himself, signed personally.
10 Q. But this corresponds to what you said and what you reported
11 yourself, that there were some parts of the Ministry of Defence there.
12 And he even says that the whole Defence Ministry is situated in the
13 Presidency building and that the government has taken many rooms in that
14 building; is that correct?
15 A. You can see from the document that it confirms what I said
16 earlier, that we treated all the incidents in the same way and that I
17 just wrote down what I actually saw. I didn't do anything.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document,
19 please?
20 JUDGE KWON: You're tendering the previous document as well?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's not necessary, that's not
22 necessary. I do not want to overburden the list of exhibits.
23 MR. HAYDEN: I'd only note, in that respect, that the line of
24 questioning presumes that you have the document in front of you to be
25 able to understand it, so it may be prudent to admit it.
Page 8916
1 JUDGE KWON: Unless it is objected to by you, we'll admit both of
2 them, marking them for identification, both of them.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 1D2721 will be MFI D859, and
4 1D2629 will be MFI
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Q. Witness, did you take part in the investigation where a girl was
7 killed in Dobrinja, I believe, on the 14th or 15th of May, 1995?
8 A. I've already mentioned that I did attend one such on-site
9 investigation. But whether it was on exactly that very day, I would very
10 much appreciate if you could tell me where I can find it.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Could we now have 65 ter 09766, the first page. This should not
13 be broadcast.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Witness, does this assist you?
16 A. Yes, and I did attend this on-site investigation.
17 Q. Who carried out the ballistics examination?
18 A. The forensic technician, the crime-of-scene [as interpreted]
19 officer.
20 Q. And the official report was drafted by you?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you accepted his report and integrated it here, or was it a
23 separate report that was attached to yours?
24 A. As I've already mentioned on a number of occasions, I integrated
25 into my report all the information that I obtained on site, and later on
Page 8917
1 he would prepare his own report.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you please confirm that this incident was at
3 Nehruova Street, number 10? Today, the name of that street is
4 Hamdije Kapidzica; correct?
5 A. As for Dobrinja and its various parts, I really am not very
6 familiar with that part of the town. I wasn't really familiar with it
7 before the war, let alone during the war. And if I noted in the report
8 that it was Nehruova Street, then that refers to its name from that time.
9 What its new name is, I don't know.
10 Q. Well, we do have that new name and the list of new street names.
11 It is Hamdije Kapidzica Street.
12 Can you now tell us, please, whether you were able to establish
13 how far the police building was from this building?
14 A. I don't really know. And as far as I can recall, we did not
15 consider that to be very relevant to the incident, itself.
16 Q. Well, don't you think that it was necessary to establish, in view
17 of the fact that the uniformed police took part in combat, that the
18 police station building was an important feature in view of the fact that
19 it could be treated as a military target?
20 A. In the vicinity of the building that I indicated was a
21 residential building, there was nothing that I could observe as being the
22 police station, and I also was not able to observe that in the vicinity
23 of this residential building and this apartment where this one individual
24 was killed, that any other apartments in the neighbourhood were used as
25 military installations.
Page 8918
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the name.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm familiar with that name. And
4 as far as I know, it's in the area of the new part of town.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters were not able to hear
6 your last question, i.e., the name of something.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Refika Sokolara Street, are you familiar with that? If I tell
9 you that Refik Sokolar, during his testimony, testified that there was a
10 police station on that street, would you accept that?
11 A. I don't know what he confirmed or what his statement was, and I
12 really can't comment on that.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 Could we now please have 1D215.
15 JUDGE KWON: What was the name of the witness you referred to,
16 Mr. Karadzic?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The police officer's name was
18 Refik Sokolar.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Witness, do you know that this police officer's name,
21 Refik Sokolar, can be found in reference to at least two incidents and
22 maybe more?
23 A. I'm not aware of that. And as far as my work was concerned, I
24 never came across it.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have 1D2151, please. It's
Page 8919
1 a map. This is not the document that we see now. This is not what I was
2 asking for.
3 Could we zoom in on the area indicated as "Dobrinja," because I
4 would like the witness to mark some things there. Is it possible to
5 focus this a little better? We can't make out the street names.
6 JUDGE KWON: If we zoom out, then we may be able to see the
7 names. No. This is a scanned version, and the quality of the map is not
8 that good as one can expect. That's what I'm told.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps we can use a different map
10 from the Prosecution binder.
11 Could we have 65 ter 19089. My apologies, 65 ter 13581.
12 JUDGE KWON: Sheet number 10, Exhibit P1739.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe we can zoom this in
14 without losing the sharp image.
15 Could we just have before us Dobrinja, itself. Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Witness, would you please mark Miroslava Krleze Street. You can
18 see the street name right here. It is indicated on the map, itself.
19 A. If I'm not mistaken, it's right here [indicates].
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We zoom out again. Before you go
21 on, we need to zoom out. Just wait a minute. Move to the left a bit.
22 Further, further, and going up.
23 Is it okay?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think so.
25 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Could you mark the street? We should
Page 8920
1 zoom out. Fine, fine. Now go to the left.
2 THE ACCUSED: Change to the pencil.
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. You have to push the arrow first and
4 then move the map to the left. Further, yes, going up. Yes, I think
5 it's okay now. Go down, a bit down. Further. Yes. Too much? Yes,
6 yes.
7 Let's start.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Please mark Miroslava Krleze Street and the building of the
10 incident.
11 A. [Marks]. I don't think it was on Miroslava Krleze Street
12 I think the incident involving one victim was in Nehruova Street.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you see Hamdije Kapidzica Street?
14 A. Yes, I do.
15 Q. Can you mark the building now?
16 A. I've already said that I'm not very familiar with this part of
17 town, especially not at that time. But as far as I can see on this map,
18 there are two buildings on that street, and I will indicate both of them,
19 if that's all right [marks].
20 Q. May I remind you. You said in your report that the room where
21 the young woman was killed was facing south-east; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you established that the round had come from Miroslava Krleze
24 Street; correct?
25 A. Yes.
Page 8921
1 Q. Is it correct that one of the referent damages to the facility
2 was on the curtain, itself? That's in paragraph 19 of your statement, on
3 page 5.
4 A. Well, first, it says that there was some damage on the left part
5 of the window, 116 centimetres from the floor, where there was a bullet
6 hole where the bullet had entered, and the same kind of damage or hole
7 was found on the curtain, 116.5 centimetres from the floor, and also on
8 the wardrobe, and the distance between the various points where the
9 bullet struck were some 20 centimetres on the wall, behind the wardrobe.
10 We recovered the round on the floor, and there were traces of blood found
11 on the bedside and on parts of the floor. And, yes, that's what it says
12 in my report, and there's also mention made of the hole in the curtain.
13 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 19, you also said that there was a hole
14 in the curtain, but then earlier on you said that you need two reference
15 points in order to be able to determine the direction of the projectile,
16 the incoming projectile?
17 A. I said earlier that I never claimed anything as regards the
18 direction of the fire, but as you can see from the report, the
19 scene-of-crime officer was able to find a number of holes or damages
20 incurred by the bullet. So it was not just a hole in the curtain, but
21 also a number of other holes.
22 Q. Is it correct that in paragraph 19, you mention only two of
23 those? One of them was on the window frame, a plastic sheet on it, and
24 the other end was in the curtains?
25 A. Well, I mentioned the plastic sheet because it was actually
Page 8922
1 attached to the window, and it was there to replace the window-pane. The
2 second one was on the curtain, and the third reference point was on the
3 wardrobe. And then if you draw a line and connect all these three
4 points, then you could draw a certain conclusion. So I am repeating
5 again: There was not just one such reference point on -- there was
6 another one on the curtain.
7 Q. Thank you. In your report, you mention two different parts.
8 These two different parts or two different areas are, in any case, either
9 the curtain or the plastic sheet of the window, and this ballistics
10 expertise was actually carried out by a scene-of-crime officer and not by
11 a ballistics expert; is that correct?
12 A. Well, I don't know if you can call it "expertise," but on the
13 basis of everything that is stated here in the report, the scene-of-crime
14 officer determined the direction. As for any details in that respect, I
15 believe you should ask him about it. I only accepted the information
16 that he provided to me on the site, itself. We should look at his report
17 and see what method he applied in order to determine that the bullet had
18 come from that direction.
19 Q. Tell us, please, what floor was this apartment on?
20 A. If it's not mentioned in the report, I can't really recall it. I
21 will try to find and see whether that was mentioned in the report.
22 Q. It was on the fourth floor; correct?
23 A. Yes, that's what it says here, the fourth floor.
24 Q. Now, please take a look at the map. Between Miroslava Krleze
25 Street and the two buildings on Hamdije Kapidzica Street, are there any
Page 8923
1 buildings in between that are taller than four storeys?
2 A. Well, I've already said that I'm not very familiar with the area.
3 I don't know if there are any other buildings that are higher than four
4 storeys.
5 Q. Now, tell us, you said that the room where the incident occurred
6 faced south-east; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Is it correct that this part of the building actually faces
9 west-south-west? Would you please draw a perpendicular line in relation
10 to these two buildings, or, rather, the closest one to Hamdije Kapidzica
11 Street. So could you draw a perpendicular line in relation to the street
12 between the two buildings?
13 A. Well, I'm not sure -- I don't know what you mean.
14 Q. Well, the closest -- the closer of the two buildings on
15 Hamdije Kapidzica Street, would you draw a perpendicular line?
16 A. [Marks]
17 Q. That is not a perpendicular line. Would you please make a right
18 angle in relation to the street there?
19 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're asking me to do. What
20 do you mean "right angle"? Right angle to what? In relation to the
21 building on Hamdije Kapidzica Street or in relation to Miroslava Krleze
22 Street? Which building?
23 Q. Well, let me explain it. Do you agree with me that when we say
24 you need a perpendicular line, that means that there is a right angle --
25 JUDGE KWON: We do not need the assistance of the witness to see
Page 8924
1 how a perpendicular line to that building would look like.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you agree with me that a perpendicular line, in relation to
4 that building, would actually be -- would face south-west and not
5 south-east?
6 A. Are you referring to the building on Hamdije Kapidzica Street
7 Q. Well, the building where the incident occurred.
8 A. Well, if you want me to mark approximately where the south-east
9 is in relation to the building on Hamdije Kapidzica Street, I can do
10 that. That is in the direction, roughly, of the airport runway.
11 Q. The rooms on this side in this building, do they face south-east
12 or south-west?
13 A. Well, I would say south-west, which is not to say that they do
14 not face south-east as well.
15 Q. But you said they faced south-east, and here we see that this
16 apartment is actually facing south-west.
17 A. Well, I'm not really such an expert to determine exactly where
18 south-west or south-east on this map would be. I may have made an error,
19 and I may be corrected, but that's what it says in the report, that it is
20 in the direction of Miroslava Krleze Street. If that is not south-east,
21 then that's just another way of saying that it faces Miroslava Krleze
22 Street.
23 Q. Thank you. Will you please sign and date this document.
24 A. [Marks]
25 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
Page 8925
1 JUDGE KWON: Delete the signature part, and why don't you put
2 your witness number, which is "KDZ485." So we delete that signature.
3 Shall we ask the witness to delete the lines between the
4 buildings and the street or shall we leave it as it is?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm talking about the mistake made
6 here. I think we should erase this, perhaps, and draw a perpendicular
7 line pointing to this building, or leave it empty.
8 JUDGE KWON: We just delete the line you draw between the two
9 markings. Yes.
10 Could you put "KDZ485"?
11 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 That will be admitted ...?
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D861, Your Honours. And for the
15 record, MFI
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Q. Is it correct that you participated in investigating an incident
18 of the 22nd December 1994 in a part of Bascarsija known as "flea market"?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. That incident happened at 10 past 9.00, and you made your report
21 and signed it.
22 Can we see 65 ter 09721 - it's page 3 in Serbian - without
23 broadcasting it, please.
24 What was the weather like that morning; do you remember?
25 A. I can't remember, but I will try to see if it's in the report.
Page 8926
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 09721, page 3, without
2 broadcasting. And there's a translation as well.
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 JUDGE KWON: Which is ...?
7 MR. HAYDEN: I only note that -- perhaps we can quickly move into
8 private session.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did say it shouldn't be
10 broadcast.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we announced that exhibit number. I know what
12 you mean.
13 Let's proceed.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Do you also need to see the page before, Witness?
16 A. If that's the page with names, the names of the members of the
17 team and the commission, then, no, I have it before me.
18 Q. Thank you. Is it the case, if you are informed, that members of
19 the police and members of the BH Army rushed to help the injured at that
20 moment?
21 A. I can't remember that now. But if it's in the report, then it's
22 true. Right now, I can't remember. I'll try to find it in the report.
23 Q. It's not in the report. I'm quoting from some evidence.
24 Can we see 65 ter 13172. 13172, page 70.
25 Because this has been exhibited and the witness has refreshed his
Page 8927
1 memory, we can remove this document.
2 How do you explain the presence of police officers, and
3 especially of the members of the Armed Forces of the Army of Bosnia and
4 Herzegovina, so quickly on the site?
5 In English, it's page 21. You can see the name of this witness
6 and his signature. In the second paragraph, line 16, you find what I've
7 just said. I believe in English it's perhaps on the next page.
8 Do you see, line 16, that the police and members of the BH Army
9 came to their rescue immediately? Yes, it says so there, to help the
10 wounded -- in English, it's the second line from the top.
11 "... to help the wounded, followed by policemen and members of
12 the BH Army."
13 A. I do not know what this witness says. I did not see policemen or
14 army members on-site when I came. Perhaps that person, the person who
15 gave the statement, can explain. I have no explanation.
16 Q. Did you secure these witnesses, because it's your duty to secure
17 the witnesses so they can give the statements?
18 A. Well, the statements were taken from my colleagues from a
19 different department called the Genocide Department. I just took their
20 names.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we have some time left, we'll
22 talk about that genocide. But before that, I'd like to tender this
23 document, unless it's already a Prosecution exhibit. Sorry, it's D554,
24 and it's already exhibited.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 8928
1 Q. Are you familiar with a sketch made by the members of your team?
2 A. Regarding this incident? No, I don't remember if that sketch
3 ever reached me. A sketch is normally made by the scene-of-crime
4 officer.
5 Q. But you know that scene because you participated in the
6 investigation?
7 A. Yes, I roughly remember the scene. If you could show me a
8 photograph, that would help me remember the details, but I know
9 approximately where it happened.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 17 of this
11 document. We can remove the rest, the document on the right.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is this the scene, Telali Street? It used to be Petar Kocic
14 Street, and the other street is Oprkanj Street. It used to be
15 Danila Ilica Street.
16 A. Yes, that's approximately that place, yes.
17 Q. Can we agree that the spots where two persons lost their lives
18 are not marked?
19 A. On this sketch, I see only numbers, and I don't know what clues
20 were marked by the scene-of-crime officers by which numbers. I just know
21 that one of these is the place of descent of one projectile and the spot
22 marked on the rail tracks is the landing of the other projectile. Now,
23 what the other numbers mean, I don't know.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 16 at the same
25 time, using the split screen? That's where the key is shown. Pages 16
Page 8929
1 and 17 on our split screen.
2 Oh, then we need the sketch to remain on one half of the screen.
3 This is page 16 that I asked for, and the sketch should remain on the
4 other side of the screen.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can we agree that the report mentions there were two casualties,
7 and that the place is mentioned?
8 A. My report mentions the place where the shell landed and where the
9 victims fell, yes, correct.
10 Q. Is it normal, in cases of homicide, that the position of the body
11 is marked by a chalk, its shape is marked?
12 A. Yes, if the body is found on the spot when we arrive. Otherwise,
13 there's nothing to mark. And I already said earlier that by the time we
14 arrived on the scene, we would not find either the bodies of the killed
15 or people who were wounded. And in this case, again, we did not find the
16 bodies of the dead, so we were not able to mark their position. Our job
17 was to record and present the crime scene as we found it, not as someone
18 describes it. That's what we found. That's what we saw at the time when
19 we were conducting our investigation.
20 Q. In our interview, and again I see in your statements, you said
21 that if the crime scene had been changed, you would normally record it.
22 Did you record in this report whether this crime scene has been altered
23 and how?
24 A. I don't see it is written that the bodies had been taken away.
25 It must be an omission on my part.
Page 8930
1 Q. Can you use the pencil again, if I may ask the usher to help, to
2 mark the place where the first projectile landed?
3 A. Well, I don't know anymore which landed first and which landed
4 second, but I will try to mark the two projectiles. [Marks] I believe
5 one is designated by number 2 here, and the second one [marks] could be
6 the one marked by one, if I remember correctly.
7 Q. Feel free to use this key. That's why we placed it on the
8 screen. And can you tell us where the fuse was found, the fuse of one of
9 the projectiles? Just look at the key, please.
10 A. I'm looking at my report, because that's the only thing that I'm
11 responsible for. The key was made by the scene-of-crime officer. I
12 would not to make any markings based on something I'm not entirely sure
13 about.
14 Q. Is it written in your report that you found the fuse, in what
15 condition it was, and where it was lying?
16 A. It says that forensic inspection found fragments of the
17 projectile, and the place of descent, that it was taken over by the MUP,
18 and that it would be submitted to experts. So in my report, it says that
19 examination by scenes-of-crime officers of the place where the projectile
20 landed found fragments of the projectile. They were taken over by
21 members of the bomb squad of the MUP of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and they
22 would be sent for further examination. So I did not describe in detail
23 which fragments were found. And it goes without saying that a fuse is
24 also a part of the projectile.
25 Q. Do you agree that here, under number 9, it says: "Part of the
Page 8931
1 fuse"? So on the picture, under number 9 is the place where part of the
2 fuse of the projectile was found?
3 A. That's written here.
4 Q. Can you then put a circle around this "9." Because there is no
5 translation of the key, we would know that it's where the fuse was found.
6 JUDGE KWON: We do have the translation of the key. It's page 7
7 of the English version.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] All right.
9 Q. Could you now put the date and your number there.
10 A. [Marks]. It's not a problem. Would somebody remind me of my
11 number?
12 Q. 485.
13 A. [Marks]
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be admitted?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. When we have an English translation, this was
16 not necessary. But, in any event, we'll admit it.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D862, Your Honours.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D2163.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You are familiar with that place, you frequented it before;
21 right?
22 A. Which place?
23 Q. The place where the incident happened.
24 A. Yes, yes, I know it.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D2163, please, in e-court.
Page 8932
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Do you know this street? Is it Danila Ilica Street, nowadays
3 called Oprkanj?
4 A. Yes, I know this street.
5 Q. Could you mark, roughly or exactly, the spot where the
6 projectile, or at least one of the projectiles, landed?
7 A. That would be really difficult now to remember and to mark. My
8 report says it's somewhere in that street, but would I be able to
9 remember exactly whether it is close to the curb?
10 Q. Well, roughly.
11 A. [Marks]. I find it hard to remember anything with certainty, but
12 I think it's not far from the curb.
13 Q. Could you repeat the same again; put the date and number.
14 A. [Marks]
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be received?
16 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit D863.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see page 40 of the
18 previous document, 13172. Page 40.
19 Page 40 in the 65 ter 13172. We had that document on the screen
20 a moment ago.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you know -- can you recognise this window?
23 A. I cannot remember it. It's just a fragment of a wall and a
24 window.
25 Q. Can you remember it from your file? It's written below.
Page 8933
1 Can we zoom in a bit further.
2 A. It says that it's a protective metal window with damage on it,
3 damage from explosion. It's possibly a window on this street. I think
4 it's in Danila Ilica Street.
5 Q. Thank you. Your job was to record the evidence?
6 A. To record and mark the evidence. Photo documentation,
7 photographs, and video footage are the job of the scenes-of-crime
8 officer. I just indicated it in the sketch, but it was not my job to
9 photograph this.
10 Q. Who told him to photograph the window, and who made these
11 markings in chalk?
12 A. I cannot recall now. It was too long ago. I cannot remember who
13 ordered him to take pictures. If there are markings, then they must have
14 been made by the scenes-of-crime officer or the ballistics person. They
15 would have been recorded also on the sketch, together with the markings
16 of other damage and other clues.
17 Q. But all this is going on under your supervision, correct, under
18 the supervision of one of the leaders, and you said it was your
19 responsibility to record evidence?
20 A. No, I said it was my responsibility to put together a team and to
21 enable each member of the team to do his part of the job. It was not my
22 job to tell them what to mark, what not to mark, how to photograph or
23 film it, and how that would look on the sketch.
24 Q. Do you have any explanation for the fact that there are no --
25 there is no fragment damage on the wall, just chalk marks?
Page 8934
1 A. I cannot give you no such explanation [as interpreted]. I
2 believe the experts from the bomb squad could give you the explanation of
3 the effects of such an explosion and how the fragments would be
4 scattered. All I know is that on some sides, there would be more
5 fragments; on another side, less. But you need an expert to give you
6 that sort of explanation.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Can we now have page 41 of the same document.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you agree that in the previous photo, you couldn't see marks
11 on the wall, and they were not marked in any way, either; only on the
12 window?
13 A. I wasn't able to see everything that was marked and what traces
14 are visible on that photograph. I can't do that on this photograph,
15 either.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Let's bring the
17 previous picture back.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Do you see that the shutters are open? This is that same window,
20 and it's now the shutters are open; is that correct?
21 A. That's what it says in the caption below the photograph.
22 Q. And do you see any markings or traces on the wall in this one?
23 First, let's look at the first picture.
24 Do you see, on any of these photographs, fragment traces on the
25 wall? The fragments that damaged metal must have left some traces on the
Page 8935
1 wall as well.
2 A. I don't know if I can see very well. I mean, I'm using glasses,
3 but from what I can see, there are some circles on the black background.
4 I don't know if that is the damage represented in the comments below the
5 photograph. I'm not sure if that's what I'm seeing or not. But, anyway,
6 on the -- in the text below the photograph, it states that the metal
7 protective area of the window does indicate damage.
8 Q. Yes, you can see it on the window. Those places are marked in
9 chalk. But we have no traces on the wall of any fragments -- made by any
10 fragments; is that correct?
11 A. Again, I'm telling you that I don't see if there are any or not,
12 and I don't see them marked. I don't know whether there were any or not.
13 And if there were any, I don't know why they weren't marked. I really
14 think these questions should be directed to the person who created these
15 photo documents.
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break --
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: -- for 25 minutes. We'll resume at quarter to 6.00.
19 --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.
20 --- On resuming at 5.51 p.m.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Can we look at page 35 in this document, please.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And while we're waiting: Witness, sir, how has this scene
Page 8936
1 changed in the meantime, other than removing the people who were killed?
2 To what extent has the scene of the incident been altered?
3 A. I really couldn't say, because I don't know what it looked like
4 initially, especially because in my report, I failed to note all the
5 things that were altered. But based on my experience from that period,
6 usually the scene was altered to the extent that those who were killed or
7 wounded were removed, and that would be the information that we would get
8 from the local police. I don't know if anything else was altered or not.
9 I couldn't know something like that, so I had to rely on what was
10 conveyed to me by the local policemen.
11 Q. Was the ground or the soil around the crater cleared, within the
12 crater? Did anybody inform you about that?
13 A. Well, it's difficult for me to recall such details. It's been a
14 long time since then. I really cannot remember. I wouldn't be able to
15 confirm that or deny it.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Can I ask the usher, please, to turn the marker on.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And can I ask you to link up these rocks or stones and these
20 parts of something from the top of the photograph down. But those that
21 are lying on the periphery of the center, do you see those objects in the
22 photograph? You can see them in the upper top left-hand corner. There's
23 one, two, three, four, five, six, or seven pieces or so. Could you link
24 them or connect them with one line, please?
25 A. [Marks]. If that's that.
Page 8937
1 Q. Well, all right, these are the closest to us. Well, would you
2 agree, when you look at it, that these fragments are in a convex shape --
3 concave in relation to the top and convex in relation to us?
4 Perhaps let me say that again in our language, like my adviser
5 says.
6 So is this depressed part facing away from us and the one that is
7 convex towards us?
8 A. The part that is bulging is facing the crater, it's facing us.
9 Q. All right. Is that what is marked with number 2 the place where
10 the projectile hit the curb of Oprkanj Street?
11 A. Yes, that's what it says, the curb of the Oprkanj Street.
12 Q. Thank you. Do you have an explanation why these fragments are
13 not facing us, why the shape those fragments are making is not reverse
14 than what it is?
15 A. I really cannot comment on that. I'm not an expert, and I can't
16 tell.
17 Q. All right. Thank you very much. Could you put your initials and
18 the date on this photograph so that it can be tendered.
19 A. [Marks].
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Can we tender this, please?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D864, Your Honours.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at page 36 of this same
25 document.
Page 8938
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. This is that same location; is that correct? It just says:
3 "Crater photographed from close up."
4 So we can see the pipes that are shown in the previous
5 photograph, but the image is not so close up.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer.
7 JUDGE KWON: Did you say, Yes, Mr. Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said, Yes, that is what it
9 states in the caption underneath the photograph.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at page 37. So
11 it's just one page ahead.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Do you notice the pattern of the soil that you can see there?
14 Can we zoom in, please.
15 Can you please read out what it says underneath this photograph.
16 A. "The same crater photographed after the clearing of the material
17 that was scattered around, with marked damage created by the explosion."
18 Q. What do we see here? We see the compass and the number 1?
19 A. Well, I see the number 1. I don't recognize what is to the right
20 of the number 1.
21 Q. But you can see that the soil has been removed and cleared here,
22 is that correct, just like it is written at the bottom?
23 A. Yes, it says at the bottom of the photograph that the material
24 that was scattered around was cleared.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 8939
1 Could we move on to the next page, please, 38.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Hayden.
3 MR. HAYDEN: I wonder what the point of this line of questioning
4 is, this and the previous half hour before the break, looking at
5 photographs. The witness hasn't been able to add anything, other than
6 read the description.
7 JUDGE KWON: Quite true, Mr. Hayden.
8 I don't see the point, Mr. Karadzic. This is --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I will, then, tell you, and I
10 will disclose my Defence case before this witness.
11 Everything was altered here, and nothing was conducted in keeping
12 with the standards of on-site investigations. And we have before us one
13 of the leading persons working in these teams, and this is the person who
14 should explain whether an on-site investigation should be conducted in
15 this manner.
16 JUDGE KWON: You could put that question easily to the witness,
17 for the first thing.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can you tell us what these hands, the compass hands, indicate?
20 A. I don't know what they indicate. All I can do is read the
21 caption below the photograph, which says that the arrow shows the
22 direction -- the incoming path of the projectile.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, it was put to you that everything was
24 altered here, nothing was conducted in keeping with the standards of
25 on-site investigation. What would you have to say to this?
Page 8940
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that once my team arrived
2 on site, they did everything as prescribed by the law. It was not
3 pointed out, in any specific terms to me, what it was that we failed to
4 do according to the standards of the profession. The only thing was, and
5 we failed to mention that, that the bodies of the casualties were -- and
6 the wounded persons were removed from the scene. So I could not infer
7 from the question what it was that was missing, because in the last
8 question, apparently the suggestion is that nothing was done according to
9 procedure, so I would like it to be pointed out to me and then I can
10 comment.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, with the Trial Chamber's
12 patience, and if you can just bear with me, I will show what my direction
13 of questioning is.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So, Witness, the scene of crime was altered; correct?
16 A. Well, only in the sense that the bodies of the casualties were
17 removed. Everything else is as recorded in the report.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D02178.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. And could you tell us whether the clues or the traces on the
21 ground were altered in any way?
22 A. I don't know what traces you are referring to.
23 Q. Well, we've just heard now that the crater was cleared and that
24 the soil was disturbed.
25 A. Well, I can only comment and say that I assumed that the crater
Page 8941
1 was cleared after the KDZ team, the bomb squad team, examined the scene
2 and stated what kind of condition they found it in. And you can also see
3 that from the photographs. You could see the photographs made before the
4 clearing of the area and after it was cleared. In other words, it was
5 done in stages.
6 Q. Would you please look at this photo, and just disregard the
7 arrows and the numbers there. Can you observe that these are the
8 photographs of the same scene, and we see that the ground or the soil was
9 disturbed, and that there are no traces of any fragments on the ground
10 there that would indicate the direction of the -- the incoming path of
11 the projectile?
12 A. Well, all I can say is that these photos were taken from two
13 different angles. Now, whether any fragments were there or not, and what
14 the bomb squad experts and ballistics experts recorded in their reports
15 about the crime scene, I really can't comment on. All I can observe here
16 is that these two photos were made from two different angles and that the
17 magnification degree was different.
18 Q. Well, you can see that the ground was disturbed and the soil was
19 not in the same spot where it was in reference to the curb?
20 A. Well, I don't know when the first or the second photos were
21 taken, whether they were taken immediately upon arrival on the scene or
22 after it had already been examined and documented. So whether, in
23 photograph 2, the number indicates the soil or anything else, I don't
24 know. I cannot really go into commenting this because I don't know
25 anything about this.
Page 8942
1 JUDGE KWON: I don't think that was a fair question to the
2 witness.
3 Can we bring up page 37 of the previous document, and English
4 version page 10.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Would you agree that these two photos were photos of the same
7 site from two different angles?
8 JUDGE KWON: Could you wait.
9 If we look at the English translation, it says that it's the same
10 photo of the close-up projectile crater, but crater photographed after
11 debris was cleared away. It's clear from the caption.
12 So what is your question, Mr. Karadzic? The investigative
13 report, itself, says it cleared the debris. So that's what you referred
14 to as being altered. Can you confirm that's what it says?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is what it says in the
16 original as well.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can we agree that a crime scene may not be altered before it is
19 examined and documented? Could you answer with a yes or no, please.
20 A. Well, I can't be as brief in my reply. All I can say is that the
21 same site, the same crime scene, is photographed at various stages at
22 first, when we just arrived, and then at the second and third stages,
23 after certain measures were taken. So, in other words, photographs can
24 be taken at several different stages, and that is true of this photograph
25 as well. And probably the photo file contains the crime -- the scene of
Page 8943
1 crime as we found it originally, and then this one after it was cleared.
2 Q. How is the incoming trajectory of a projectile determined?
3 A. I'm sure that that's a question for an expert in that field, and
4 I am not such an expert nor am I familiar in detail with what methods
5 they use in order to determine the incoming trajectory and path.
6 Q. Thank you. Would you agree that the layout of the traces around
7 the crater has to be preserved and should not be removed before it's
8 examined? You were the person who documented the recovery of evidence on
9 the site, so why was the site cleared away before you arrived?
10 A. Well, I can't really see, from this photo, whether the trajectory
11 was already established and then the crime scene cleared away or whether
12 it was done the other way around. I can't see it, based on this photo.
13 This is probably a question you should put to the author of this
14 photograph and to the people who conducted the investigation.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Hayden.
16 MR. HAYDEN: Three points, Your Honour.
17 One, the witness has now stated on a number of occasions that he
18 is not familiar with the methods of determining trajectory or direction
19 of fire.
20 Second, the accused has stated in his question:
21 "Why was the site cleared away before you arrived?"
22 The witness has already made it clear that that's not the case,
23 it was only the bodies that were removed before he arrived.
24 JUDGE KWON: Probably the Chamber has allowed too much for
25 cross-examination of this witness to the accused.
Page 8944
1 Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpretation was --
3 Your Excellency, it's quite all right. This is a large case and
4 involving many incidents. The interpretation was bad. I asked, What was
5 altered before on the ground, and then my question was, Why was it
6 necessary to clear away the soil from the crime scene? So we are having
7 difficulty here with the interpretation, and I will have to obtain the
8 video materials in order to check them at home.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now, Witness, I would like to know this: Did you make sure that
11 each member of your team carry out their work properly, because that's
12 what you stated in your statement, and why, then, did you allow the soil
13 to be removed, and that was a determining factor in establishing the
14 direction of fire?
15 A. Well, again, I have to --
16 JUDGE KWON: He answered your question.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
18 Can we then have 1D2164, please.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Would you please indicate, on this photograph, the point of
21 impact of the second shell. Is this where it landed, and could you
22 please mark the spot where it was? But do not use the marker that you
23 have there.
24 Could the witness please be provided with a pen, a regular pen.
25 A. This is a new photograph, and it approximately depicts the area.
Page 8945
1 However, I can only mark approximately the place where that projectile
2 would have fallen.
3 Q. Well, can you just do it approximately?
4 A. No problem, I will try to indicate where that was [marks].
5 I think it's about here somewhere, but please don't take my word for it.
6 It's not 100 per cent precise, but it's approximately in this area here,
7 because this is a later photo and in the meantime the street was
8 repaired, the stores are different and they were changed, and so on.
9 Q. Thank you. Would you please date this and put your pseudonym
10 number.
11 A. [Marks]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will not discuss this incident
13 at length or as much as I wanted to, because I won't be able to ask you
14 about many of the things I'm interested in.
15 Could we now please have page 44 of the earlier document, and I
16 would like to tender this photograph, please.
17 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit D865.
18 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
19 JUDGE KWON: Unfortunately, because of technical difficulty, we
20 lost the picture. Could you mark it, kindly, again, Mr. Witness, and
21 sign it again.
22 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 THE REGISTRAR: This is Exhibit D865.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
Page 8946
1 Q. Witness, can you tell us, who could answer our questions in
2 relation -- regarding this incident? Who is the person who could answer
3 all our questions? Who was the person responsible for the investigation
4 into this particular incident, so that we can put all our questions to
5 them? Could you -- you don't have to use a name. Could you just tell us
6 the job title of that person?
7 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Hayden.
8 MR. HAYDEN: That's not an appropriate question, Your Honour.
9 The witness, for a start, can't possibly know what kind of questions
10 Mr. Karadzic has regarding this incident.
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
12 Previously, you answered, Mr. Witness, that Mr. Karadzic should
13 put that question to the author of this investigation report. Do you
14 know who the author was?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The part relating to the photo file
16 and the sketch of the scene of crime, as well as the video-recording of
17 the scene of crime, is the person indicated there as the scene-of-crime
18 officer.
19 As for the questions about the incoming trajectory and the angle
20 of descent, and other matters that relate to the explosion, itself, I
21 assume -- or, rather, I'm sure that a bomb squad expert would have all
22 the answers to those questions, because that would have been the person
23 who conducted the investigation and tried to establish what kind of
24 projectile was in question.
25 So each individual would be responsible for their own field of
Page 8947
1 expertise, to answer the questions relating to that field of expertise.
2 JUDGE KWON: And as regards the timing to clear the crime scene
3 after having investigated?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please be more specific?
5 Do you mean the clearing away after everything was completed or does this
6 relate to the earlier question?
7 JUDGE KWON: For example, whether or not to clear the debris from
8 the crime scene after proper investigation, and when to do it, who
9 decides that?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I could see the method of
11 the bomb squad experts and the way they work, I saw that first -- what
12 they do first is establish and determine -- describe the exact situation
13 as they found it when they arrived. Then they determine the angle of
14 descent, and once that is done, they would clear away the debris from the
15 point of impact, itself, and I assume this is done because it is expected
16 that other parts of an explosive device or projectile that had come in
17 could be found. So that is done at that stage.
18 There is a stage called the "clearing of the debris" stage, but I
19 cannot tell you exactly what that pertains to because that was done by
20 the individuals who are responsible for that part of the investigation.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 Mr. Karadzic.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Q. Why would, then, the marking of the direction from which the
25 projectile came, on page 38, take place after the marking of the crater
Page 8948
1 and the scene -- after the clearing of the crater, correcting.
2 The interpretation is a disaster. I apologise to the
3 interpreters. We're probably speaking too fast, but the interpretation
4 is confusing.
5 After the clearing of the crater, the direction of fire is
6 determined. Does that mean that the traces are not important or even
7 make it harder to determine the direction of fire?
8 A. I believe we're coming back again to the answers I've already
9 given. I don't know their methods. Perhaps we should look to see if
10 there is a photograph taken before the clearing, and how it was taken,
11 not look at the photo file selectively, but look at the entire photo file
12 to see if there was a photograph before, just when the team came to the
13 site, and then you can maybe get an answer.
14 Q. In this document, itself, it is written on page 38 and it is
15 shown that the direction was determined.
16 May I now ask for page 44.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic -- no, I will stop you. Your question
18 was on the basis that the photos in this investigation report were
19 compiled in chronological order. How can this witness answer that
20 question?
21 You said you would move on to your next topic. Please do so.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In this case, I want just one more
23 photograph so the witness can confirm. It's directly within his purview.
24 Page 44 of this document.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 8949
1 Q. Until then: Witness, can you tell us who is answerable for this
2 case, for this documentation? Who is responsible at the moment when this
3 documentation is submitted to the Prosecutor's Office? Who is the author
4 of this document, as a whole?
5 A. I've said that the author of the photo file is the
6 scene-of-crimes technician.
7 Q. No, no, no. Who is responsible for this case? Who is answerable
8 for this whole case file? It is submitted to the Prosecutor's Office
9 with the intention of bringing the perpetrator to justice. Who is
10 responsible, who is the end author who makes the synthesis and submits
11 the file with the intention of bringing the perpetrator to justice?
12 A. The synthesis of all the material that has been made, the
13 findings, the traces, et cetera, was done by the department called at
14 that time the Genocide Department. Based on that material, they wrote up
15 a criminal report that was submitted to the Prosecutor's Office.
16 Q. The whole department or a person in that department whom we can
17 call? We can't call the department. Who can we call to shed light on
18 this case?
19 A. To the best of my knowledge about the method of work, on every
20 criminal report given to the Prosecutor's Office, there is the name of
21 the person who processed the case, who worked on it. So probably on
22 their document, you can find the identification of the person who put
23 together the whole material.
24 Q. With all due respect, Witness, in all these cases, whenever we
25 try to pin-point someone who is responsible, they slip away like soap.
Page 8950
1 Can you mark on this picture the fuse? These are fragments that
2 you recorded. Could you mark the fuse on this photograph?
3 A. I don't see anywhere a document where it says that I recorded and
4 gathered these fragments. In my document, it says, and we can come back
5 to it again, that fragments were found. There is not a single word or a
6 sentence in my report that says that a fuse was found or any other
7 specific fragment by name. Again, I repeat, I am not the person who
8 knows or is able to identify the fuse on this photograph.
9 Q. We saw, in the key under number 9, that there was a fuse. If we
10 have a fragment of fuse on this photograph and you're unable to mark it,
11 we can move to the next incident.
12 Did you investigate the incident in Safet Hadzic Street?
13 A. I was in Safet Hadzic Street, but it would be good if you could
14 tell me which incident happened there and what it was all about. And I'm
15 telling you, again, I did not conduct the whole investigation, but the
16 on-site investigation.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then get -- just a moment.
18 We have an ERN number here. 65 ter, it would be, 09784, without
19 broadcasting it.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Are you familiar with this official report?
22 A. Yes. My name is on it, but there must be another two pages of
23 it.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get the next page to see who
25 signed it, page 3 from here. This is the first in Serbian. We need the
Page 8951
1 third.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you see who signed it?
4 A. Yes. That's my signature.
5 Q. Thank you. Look at that page, and then we should go back to the
6 front to see all you need. Tell us when you need to go back to page 2 or
7 1.
8 A. You can start asking your questions while we're on page 3. I
9 don't know what you wanted to say by -- what you mean by saying, Look at
10 what you need. I have no idea what your questions are going to be.
11 Q. Because I'm going to ask you about another case, I wanted you to
12 refresh your memory using this document so I can call up something else
13 into e-court.
14 Can we see page 2. Thank you.
15 We will call them every time, or perhaps we can have the Serbian
16 version of this document printed out so we can call up other things. Can
17 we print pages 1, 2 and 3 and give the witness a hard copy?
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness has a hard copy with him now. That's
19 what you said, yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent. I didn't know that.
21 No, I wanted him to have it now. Does he have it now?
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Do you have this report on paper?
24 A. Yes.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellent, thank you.
Page 8952
1 Can we now get 10273.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. While we're waiting: Witness, before which number in
4 Safet Hadzic Street did this incident happen?
5 A. I believe my report speaks about, if I can put it that way,
6 events of two kinds. An event is described where activation of explosive
7 devices was found, as written in my report, from a 90-millimetre gun, and
8 the impact of a modified air-bomb on a residential building. If you mean
9 Safet Hadzic Street, and it was -- it used to be called the 1st of May
10 Street, an explosive device of huge destructive power impacted outside
11 number 152. But also in the same street, outside numbers 110, 102,
12 et cetera, damage was found caused by a projectile fired from an
13 artillery gun, or, rather, several projectiles fired from artillery guns
14 of 90 millimetres and one projectile of great destructive power, which
15 was a modified air-bomb.
16 Q. And what happened outside number 52? Because you also list that
17 number.
18 A. It says "on the roof," so there must be a mistake here, a typo.
19 Either number "1" was typed by mistake before "52," or perhaps "1" was
20 omitted before "52." In any case, it's a typo, because there was only
21 one projectile of huge destructive power.
22 Now, at this moment, after all this time, I cannot tell you
23 whether the correct house number is 152 or 52. In any case, it was about
24 one residential building and one roof.
25 Now, in view of what happened, and in retrospect, to view our
Page 8953
1 work in this way, as if we had worked under ideal circumstances, and to
2 expect me to explain how an error occurred, I cannot. It is a typo,
3 anyway.
4 Q. Can you mark which projectile fell on which building? Use green,
5 please, or black. You can change the colour on that pen.
6 A. If I can remember correctly now, it's this one [marks].
7 Q. Put number 1 and tell us what fell there.
8 A. [Marks]. I think this explosive device of great destructive
9 power or, as I wrote down, modified air-bomb, fell on this building.
10 Q. Thank you. Where did this German Nazi shell fall, whatever you
11 found?
12 A. It's written exactly, what impacted there, and there is a
13 description. I'll try to draw a line to mark, approximately in this area
14 [marks], damage was found in several places from these artillery
15 projectiles. If my memory serves me well, this is a school and these are
16 residential buildings. And on this axis, damage was found, including one
17 unexploded shell.
18 Q. The black line is number 2; right?
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. And that denotes the layout of fragments from another projectile?
21 A. Not fragments, but damage caused by several projectiles that fell
22 there.
23 Q. And what is this building just behind number 2?
24 A. I just told you. If I remember well, it was a primary school. I
25 believe it's still a primary school.
Page 8954
1 Q. And what was it during the war?
2 A. I really don't know.
3 Q. And what's that building further towards the top with two big
4 windows? Or, rather, is that a transformer station in Novi Grad?
5 A. Possibly. Possibly, there was a transformer station near this
6 streetcar depot.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you put number 3 on that building.
8 A. [Marks]
9 Q. Can we agree that this transformer station for Novi Grad feeds
10 everything that's important in Novi Grad?
11 A. I have no idea what areas are fed by this transformer station and
12 which area it covers.
13 Q. Again, could you please put the date and your number.
14 A. [Marks]
15 Q. What you said was the school, could it have been a police station
16 in Novi
17 A. No.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
19 May this document be received?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D866, Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D02198, please. 1D02198.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Please, do you see the building of the television station here,
25 then the transformer station, the Surveying Institute? Can you just mark
Page 8955
1 them and say, Number 1 is this, number 2 is this? Can you see the TV
2 building?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Can you put number 1 there, in whatever colour.
5 A. [Marks]
6 Q. The Surveying Institute?
7 A. It's together with the Municipal building of Novi Grad, if I can
8 combine both the Municipality building and the Surveying Institute at
9 number 2.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you see the police station at Novi Grad? Is the
11 red roof at the police station?
12 A. No, it isn't.
13 Q. All right. Do you see the transformer station better now?
14 A. I'm not sure whether this is perhaps the transformer station. I
15 can mark it, but I'm not sure.
16 Q. All right. Put number 3 there.
17 A. [Marks] But I'm not sure.
18 Q. Can you just mark the building on which the projectile impacted?
19 Formerly, 1st of May Street, nowadays Safet Hadzic Street.
20 A. This is the photograph --
21 Q. Do you see the school?
22 A. It could be this building [marks].
23 Q. Can you put number 4?
24 A. Yes. [Marks]
25 Q. Can you tell us how the direction of fire was determined here?
Page 8956
1 A. I don't know.
2 Q. May I ask you to look in your report to see what's written there?
3 A. It says that if we are talking about this modified air-bomb, it
4 says that the direction is south-south-west, that it came from that
5 direction, which corresponds with the positions in the area of Lukavica.
6 Q. But here, at the beginning of page 2 -- or, rather, the end of
7 page 1, it says:
8 "The projectile fell not far from the north-western wall of the
9 residential building in Safet Hadzic Street."
10 Can you draw an arrow to mark this north-western wall of the
11 building? You know where the north is, you know what it looks like. Can
12 you draw a line -- or, rather, an arrow to show the north-west direction.
13 A. I don't know if that's right [marks], but the north-western part
14 of the building is on this side.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I wanted to let you know that you have
17 spent so far two hours and a half, and you will have one hour left. So
18 plan the remainder of your cross-examination to cover everything.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 That's the source of the greatest frustration for the Defence.
21 We are dealing with important witnesses and important documents, and a
22 large number of incidents, so we cannot just muddle through it and rush
23 through it. In cases where there was a rush through such things, people
24 have been convicted.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 8957
1 Q. Look at your report. Based on unexploded projectiles and the
2 detected parts of exploded projectiles, it was established that they were
3 always armoured projectiles, 90-millimetre calibre. Can you see that
4 passage?
5 A. Yes, I do.
6 Q. Now, about this north-west wall, can you connect it -- or,
7 rather, can you extend this line, this arrow you drew, across the entire
8 photograph?
9 A. [Marks]
10 Q. Thank you. Can you put the date and your number.
11 A. [Marks]
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May this be received?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D867.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 Q. Can you continue? It says here that you also found a shell
17 produced in Germany
18 "Calibre, 90 millimetres, produced in Nazi Germany ..."
19 A. "With the following markings."
20 Q. Go on until "Ilidza."
21 A. "The sign of eagle with the swastika, WOA411." And then in the
22 extension number, "3." "Eagle with swastika," and opposite that,
23 number "1." And then "CZL," and below, "BYW." And then opposite that,
24 "043," and below that number, "968." And in extension letter "A."
25 Q. Does that mean that three such projectiles were found, or is it
Page 8958
1 one?
2 A. If I can remember well now, it was one unexploded projectile.
3 I'm not sure.
4 Q. It says:
5 "Explosive artillery projectiles, calibre 90 millimetres"?
6 A. It says there were several of them that landed and exploded, and
7 this one was found unexploded.
8 Q. Look at the next sentence:
9 "According to the traces --"
10 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not have this text.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. "According to the traces, it was established that all these
13 projectiles from a weapon so far undetermined were fired from the
14 direction of the west, which corresponds to the positions of the Serbs."
15 How did you come to this conclusion?
16 A. That's a question for the members of the team. If you have
17 before you the first page of my report, those are persons under numbers 3
18 and 4, especially the person under number 3. That was his field of work.
19 Q. Who is the ballistics person in this investigation?
20 A. You can probably see, yourself, that not a single person here is
21 identified as a ballistics expert or a member of the bomb squad team, so
22 there were probably none of those.
23 Q. And how was the conclusion made in Bascarsija, in the previous
24 incident, that the shell came from Mount Trebevic, from the Serbian
25 positions? What was the decisive criterion enabling you to say that it
Page 8959
1 came from the Serbian positions on Mount Trebevic?
2 MR. HAYDEN: Asked and answered. He's already stated that he
3 doesn't know about the methodology and how it was determined. He only
4 recorded the conclusions.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you know, Witness, that on Trebevic, the forces of the BH Army
8 held several hills and several important features just overlooking
9 Bascarsija at Colina Kapa, Mala Kapa, then further on Debelo Brdo,
10 et cetera; is that so?
11 A. I'm not sure whether I told you that today or yesterday when we
12 talked, but I had never been at the lines, nor do I know in which areas
13 members of the BH Army were positioned or members of the VRS. And I
14 cannot tell you now where the BH Army positions were.
15 Q. But do you agree that for a while you lived at the very
16 separation line in Ilidza?
17 A. Perhaps this is a question that might --
18 Q. Well, you don't have to. It cannot have any effect, but I
19 withdraw my question.
20 Do you consider that a team that is supposed to establish the
21 direction of fire, it is very important to know the disposition of the
22 forces?
23 JUDGE KWON: I don't think it's for the witness to answer that,
24 such a question.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect,
Page 8960
1 Your Excellency, it says here that the projectile had come from the
2 aggressor side, the rebel Serb forces. I will overlook what it says
3 here, "the Serb rebel forces," but there is an identification of a
4 perpetrator and a location of where they were, so we have to know where
5 that was if that's what is stated in his report.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Is that so, Witness? If you say that a projectile had come from
8 a place, here or there, that would mean that you know where it had come
9 from?
10 JUDGE KWON: I think the witness answered that he doesn't know.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Well, why, then, did you put your signature on this report, where
13 it says that the place from which the projectile had been fired was
14 identified and who had fired it?
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I may put your cross-examination to a
16 stop if you continue to ask such a question.
17 Move on to your next topic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 Could we now briefly look at P1058, please.
20 Can we zoom in on the central portion of this. Or, rather, my
21 apologies, leave it as it is.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Would you agree with me that this is a map of the chief of staff
24 of the 12th Division Command? Is that correct?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Hayden.
Page 8961
1 MR. HAYDEN: The witness has previously answered that he had no
2 contacts with the ABiH, did not visit any of their positions, had no
3 contact with the military. This is --
4 JUDGE KWON: But by chance, he may have noticed.
5 Can you answer the question?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm not really the person who
7 can confirm whether this is a map of the chief of staff. I mean, it does
8 say so on the map, itself. It says, at the bottom right, "Chief of
9 staff," Colonel So-And-So. But whether this indeed his map or not, I
10 really don't know.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a Prosecution exhibit, so
12 there is no reason to doubt it.
13 Now, could we zoom in on the part of the map, the area where
14 several incidents took place, and tomorrow we will clarify some other
15 parts.
16 Could we zoom in a bit further, the entire area below. A bit
17 further, please. Thank you.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Could you mark the television building here, please, and
20 Safeta Hadzica Street?
21 A. No, I'm sorry, the print is too fine.
22 Q. Can you see, at "102," there's the wire factory, and that's where
23 the television building is? Are you familiar with this part of Sarajevo
24 A. Well, all I can do is read that below number "102 bbr," it says
25 "Goranka" neighbourhood, but perhaps the television building -- it's too
Page 8962
1 small here, but it's possible that it's to the left of the digit "1" in
2 the number "102."
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I'm asking you again whether it is a
4 proper and efficient use of time putting such question to the witness,
5 who says -- who is not familiar with the military situation. You can use
6 this map in your submission, as much as you can, later on. What's the
7 point of putting this question to the witness?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you tell us what the final conclusion of your investigation
11 was? You can take a look at the report.
12 Can we have 1D2143. I consider it very important for this
13 witness to be able to place the incident and its location.
14 Now, we will have to play this, because it hasn't been up-loaded
15 into e-court. If you allow me to play 1D --
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Hayden.
17 MR. HAYDEN: It's not for Mr. Karadzic to prove or disprove this
18 incident to this witness. Therefore, it's not appropriate to have him
19 show to him where this position is, as Mr. Karadzic has just stated.
20 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show this map from our
22 computer. Very well.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Now, would you please mark the same buildings, the television
25 building, the factory, here on this map? Can you see it now? Or,
Page 8963
1 rather, can you see the map of this place before you?
2 A. I cannot.
3 JUDGE KWON: I'm told that it is not possible to mark on this.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it possible to save it as it is?
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you see now the incident site?
7 A. I cannot. What I see before me, on my screen, is just a form to
8 enter case numbers, and description of case, and so on.
9 Now I can see it. I can see the facilities that you wanted me to
10 mark.
11 Q. Well, could you then, please, put a circle around Geteova Street
12 and then the incident site?
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I was told that it's impossible to
14 mark on this map.
15 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
17 Q. Well, do you agree with me, then, that the television building
18 can be seen here, as well many factories, as well as two incident sites,
19 the Geteova Street and the Safeta Hadzica Street incidents?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you investigated those two incidents, as well as the third
22 one on the building?
23 JUDGE KWON: If necessary, and if you have a hard copy, you can
24 ask the witness to mark on the hard copy.
25 I note the time. We'll adjourn for today.
Page 8964
1 And you have to finish your cross-examination in 35 minutes
2 today [sic].
3 Mr. Tieger, yes.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 In light of the cross-examination today, I'd just like to note
6 that the next witness, as I related earlier, has been in The Hague for a
7 considerable period, accommodating both the requests by the Defence --
8 scheduling adjustments. If we don't conclude tomorrow, he'll obviously
9 have to be here until Tuesday. I would note that for the purpose of
10 encouraging, if at all possible, the completion of his evidence tomorrow.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond.
12 I would request that -- at least one session tomorrow for this
13 witness. And we were allowed four hours for the next witness, which is
14 insufficient.
15 JUDGE KWON: No, you have to finish in half an hour tomorrow.
16 And we are supposed to sit from 9.00 to 2.30 tomorrow.
17 MR. TIEGER: I had checked -- let me check the schedule once
18 more. I didn't note that, but that's good to know.
19 JUDGE KWON: I'll check the court schedule now, but we'll see how
20 we can manage.
21 Mr. Witness, have a nice evening. But during the adjournment,
22 you are not supposed to discuss your testimony with anybody else.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.
24 JUDGE KWON: The hearing is now adjourned.
25 Tomorrow morning at 9.00.
Page 8965
1 [The witness stands down]
2 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.02 p.m.
3 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 4th day of
4 November, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.
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