1 Wednesday, 8 December 2010
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 11.47 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning to you all. My apologies for having
7 kept everybody waiting due to a logistical problem. So why don't we
8 begin. If the witness kindly take the solemn declaration.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The truth, the whole truth, and
10 nothing but the truth.
11 JUDGE KWON: Please be seated, Mr. Besic.
12 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
13 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
14 WITNESS: SEAD BESIC
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 Examination by Gaynor:
17 Q. Witness, could you state your fall name, please?
18 A. My same is Sead Besic.
19 Q. What is your current occupation?
20 A. I'm working at the canton Sarajevo MUP. I'm criminal technician,
21 I'm junior inspector. That is my position.
22 Q. You previously testified in the trials of Stanislav Galic,
23 Dragomir Milosevic, and Momcilo Perisic; is that correct?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Previously provided statements to the Office of the Prosecutor of
1 this Tribunal?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you've had an opportunity, I believe, to review an
4 amalgamated statement containing relevant portions of your previous
5 testimonies and statements; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask the Registrar to bring up 65 ter 22060,
9 Q. In front of you, Mr. Besic, do you see the first page of your
10 amalgamated statement?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Does the amalgamated statement accurately reflect the evidence
13 you have previously given, and if you were examined on the same topics
14 today, would you provide the same information to the Court?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to seek admission of the amalgamated
17 statements, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1966, Your Honours.
20 MR. GAYNOR:
21 Q. I'll now read a short summary of the statement of Mr. Besic.
22 Mr. Besic was -- Mr. Besic was a criminal technician in the CSB
23 Sarajevo of the RBiH MUP. He participated in investigations of shelling
24 and sniping incidents in Sarajevo. Mr. Besic's duties involved preparing
25 diagrams and photographs of crime scenes and retrieving physical
1 evidence. His statement concerns investigations into the shelling of a
2 residential area in Dobrinja on the 4th of February, 1994. The shelling
3 of the Markale Market on the 5th of February 1994, and on the 28th of
4 August, 1995, and the sniping incident on the 18th of November, 1994. In
5 respect of the Markale incident on the 4th of February, 1994, Markale I
6 in which 66 people were killed and over 140 were wounded, Mr. Besic
7 states that during the initial examination of the impact point, the
8 stabiliser could not be seen above ground level. Mr. Besic participated
9 in cleaning the area around the impact point. The stabiliser was
10 subsequently removed by French UNPROFOR personnel and later provided to
11 Mr. Besic. Mr. Besic confirms that scene, including part of the work by
12 a member of UNPROFOR, to remove the stabiliser was recorded by one of his
13 colleagues using a video camera.
14 Mr. Besic also participated in the investigation of the shelling
15 of the Markale Market on the 28th of August, 1995, Markale II, which
16 killed 43 people and injured 75. Mr. Besic took a number of photographs
17 and prepared a diagram of the incident scene. Mr. Besic also
18 participated in an investigation of a scheduled sniping incident on the
19 18th of November, 1994, in which Dzenana Sokolovic and her son Nermin
20 Divovic were fired on while walking on Zmaja Od Bosne. Dzenana Sokolovic
21 was wounded and her son was killed.
22 At the time of the incident, they had been walking home from
23 Frazno where -- pardon me, that's Hrasno, where they had gone to collect
24 firewood the previous day. Mr. Besic's tasks were to photograph and to
25 make a diagram of the scene. That concludes the summary.
1 Q. Mr. Besic, my questions to you today will only concern the
2 Markale I incident and the Markale II incident. Starting with Markale I,
3 I'd like to call up a video which has been admitted as P1711. If we
4 could play that video, please. We are going to play from the start until
5 11 seconds.
6 [Video-clip played]
7 MR. GAYNOR:
8 Q. Mr. Besic, could you describe the scene that you've just seen on
9 the screen in front of you?
10 A. Yes, this is Markale I market. On the photograph, you can see
11 the damage, the stalls turned over, and on the photograph you can also
12 see me, the person that you can see on the photograph is me.
13 MR. GAYNOR: If we can now go to 2 minutes and 33 seconds,
14 please. If we could play that for a few.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. GAYNOR:
17 Q. Now, if we could stop there, please. What we've stopped now at 2
18 minutes and 38 seconds. What did you see in that portion of the video,
19 Mr. Besic?
20 A. This is the centre of the mortar shell explosion where you can
21 see material that has fallen on to this place. By cleaning it, you can
22 see much better, the centre of the explosion of the mortar projectile.
23 Q. Was it your standard practice to clean the area around the impact
24 of a mortar projectile during your investigations?
25 A. Yes, that is a standard thing because in order to be able to see
1 exactly the centre of the impact and the damage on the asphalt indicating
2 the direction from which the projectile came.
3 Q. How exactly did you clean the area around the impact point?
4 A. This place I cleaned -- I didn't have a broom or anything like
5 that, so I used a cloth and I removed the material composed of different
6 objects, tissue, blood, and so on.
7 MR. GAYNOR: If we could play on now from 02:38 until 03:30.
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. GAYNOR:
10 Q. Now, in general terms what kind of objects were on sale at
11 Markale Market in February 1994?
12 A. Flour, oil, cigarettes, lighters, a lot of items that were used
13 for different kind of gas installations. Very few sort -- types of fruit
14 and vegetables were there. This is the kind of thing that was sold at
15 the Markale Market at that time.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask the technical booth to turn on the sound
17 of the video for the next -- in fact for all of the videos we are going
18 to play today. Now, I'd like to play the next 15 seconds and I'd like
19 you to listen carefully to the voices, please, Mr. Besic.
20 [Video-clip played]
21 MR. GAYNOR: Stop it there, stopped at 3 minutes and 45 seconds.
22 Q. Did you hear those voices, Mr. Besic?
23 A. Yes, I heard that one voice.
24 Q. What was the voice that you heard and who was that person?
25 A. That was my voice because I was addressing the judge to permit us
1 to begin the cleaning and freeing up of the material from the centre of
2 explosion so that we could have a better view of the point of impact.
3 Q. So is it right that you did not begin cleaning that location
4 until the Judge gave you permission to do so?
5 A. All the actions performed during an on-site investigation have to
6 be done pursuant to the agreement and permission of the investigating
7 judge. No act can be done without that.
8 Q. Now, just visible on the right-hand portion of the screen in
9 front of you, one sees a pair of scissors. Do you have any idea why one
10 might find scissors at that location?
11 A. The scissors probably dropped from a market stall. All kinds of
12 things were being sold at the market. People were offering anything in
13 order to get a box of cigarettes, a litre of oil, sugar, flour in return,
14 so among other objects the scissors were also there. They probably fell
15 from one of the stalls, there's no other reason for them to be there.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Could we now go to 6 minutes and 38 seconds, please.
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Gaynor.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
19 JUDGE KWON: We haven't heard the translation of that voice
20 asking for the permission, but I don't take it it's challenged by the
21 Defence. We can carry on then on that basis. Thank you.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. If we can -- we'll start
23 playing at 6:38.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 MR. GAYNOR: Stop please at 6:42.
1 Q. What do you see on the screen in front of you now, Mr. Besic?
2 A. You can see the point of impact there of the mortar projectile,
3 the clearing has been done precisely in order to see the markings on the
4 ground because they are used in order to determine the direction from
5 which the projectile came. The sticks -- actually aids in the shape of
6 the letter T were placed by the ballistics experts, and based on the
7 damage of the asphalt surface they can determine the direction from where
8 the projectile came.
9 Q. Is it correct that it was not part of your duties to determine
10 the direction of fire?
11 A. That is correct. This was something that was done by the
12 ballistics experts. That was their job.
13 Q. Do you happen to remember who they were, the ballistics experts
14 in this particular instance?
15 A. Mirza Sabljica, ballistics expert was there. And this other one,
16 he died. I cannot remember his name.
17 MR. GAYNOR: Very well. If we could now play from 08:37 to
18 08:47, please.
19 [Video-clip played]
20 MR. GAYNOR:
21 Q. What -- stop it there. We stopped at 08:47. What do you see on
22 the screen in front of you now, Mr. Besic?
23 A. This is the very centre of the explosion of the mortar
24 projectile. You can see parts of the soil, the asphalt, pebbles that are
25 in the centre itself.
1 MR. GAYNOR: If we could now play on until 09:20, please.
2 [Video-clip played]
3 MR. GAYNOR: Stopped at just before 09:20.
4 Q. Could you describe for the court what you saw in that portion of
5 the video, please?
6 A. In this part of the recording you can see the clearing of the
7 very centre of the explosion. And after the asphalt, the pebbles, and
8 the other material, the soil was removed, the stabiliser was found of the
9 120-millimetre mortar shell.
10 Q. Did any members of the BiH MUP participate in removing the
11 pebbles and removing the stabiliser?
12 A. You can see from this that this was done by members of the UN,
13 specifically from the FrenchBat. We didn't want to do anything until
14 they came and saw for themselves and extracted the projectile.
15 Q. Why was it you didn't want to do anything until they came and saw
16 for themselves?
17 A. There were different kinds of speculations during previous
18 shelling and when people were killed, so we decided that it was better
19 that they do it rather than us.
20 Q. Now, after the members of FrenchBat removed the stabiliser, who
21 did they give it to?
22 A. I took the stabiliser fin from the mortar shell and took it to
23 the CSB crime lab as an exhibit, as evidence where it was properly
24 recorded, packed, and kept or stored as an exhibit.
25 Q. On the following day at what -- which is the 6th of February,
1 1994, what if anything happened to the stabiliser?
2 A. On the 6th of February a team was formed for ballistics expertise
3 which went to the scene again which was secured over a period of 24
4 hours, and my boss at that time Mohammed Hadzisakovic, went with the team
5 as head of the criminal investigations. He took the fin with him to the
6 location where the place was examined by ballistics experts, specifically
7 Berko Zecevic, who actually compiled a report about this particular
8 projectile and its impact.
9 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to play on from the current location,
10 to 09:20 until 09:39.
11 [Video-clip played]
12 MR. GAYNOR:
13 Q. Now, where do you understand this footage has been taken?
14 A. This was taken at the Kosevo hospital in the morgue. All the
15 corpses were transferred to the morgue of the Kosevo hospital. We see a
16 corpse here that is placed on a corrugated iron strip which had been on
17 the roof of one of the stalls at the market, and people used it as a
18 stretcher. They used the roof parts of the stalls as stretchers.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MR. GAYNOR: If we could just play another five seconds, perhaps.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. GAYNOR:
23 Q. Did you see in that clip that there were several bodies which
24 were lying on parts of roofing unit, if I may put it that way, which had
25 been used as stretchers, it wasn't just one body?
1 A. Yes, you can see the corpses on several locations that are laid
2 on the roofing pieces from the stalls. People used all kind of things to
3 transport the wounded, the casualties, the dead, to the hospital as soon
4 as possible and some to the morgue.
5 MR. GAYNOR: The video-clip stopped there at 10 minutes and 3
6 seconds. If we could now play from 19 minutes and 50 seconds until 20
8 [Video-clip played]
9 MR. GAYNOR:
10 Q. Now, we can see on the bottom left of the video picture,
11 Mr. Besic, the date 6.2.1994, which was the day after the incident; is
12 that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you describe what you saw in that portion of the video?
15 A. At this place you can see the centre of impact. You can see the
16 traces of damage on the asphalt surface, and the chalk marks the damaged
17 parts. The chalk was put by the -- there by the experts who were doing
18 the investigation at the scene. That is that ballistics part of the
20 MR. GAYNOR: If we could move now, please, to 22 minutes and 20
21 seconds. If we could just play please from there.
22 [Video-clip played]
23 MR. GAYNOR: Stop there, please, at 22 minutes and 28 seconds.
24 Q. Do you happen to know what those markings on the ground refer to,
25 Mr. Besic?
1 A. I'm not an expert in that field, I wasn't there at the time, but
2 the arrow indicates the direction of the north, 18 degrees. I don't know
3 if that is the angle of impact or 18 degrees to the north-east. I cannot
4 be sure but the arrow indicates the direction of the north and this
5 degree, 18 degrees probably indicates the direction from where the
6 projectile came.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Could we now play 26 minutes and 32 seconds to 26
8 minutes and 54 seconds.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. GAYNOR:
11 Q. Could you describe what you saw in that portion, Mr. Besic?
12 A. Again, this is the centre of impact of the explosion of the
13 mortar projectile, and this was filmed by my colleague Suad Dzumisic, so
14 this is a close-up and then probably from the roof of the building or
15 from the building itself, there was another shot made of the wider area
16 of impact.
17 Q. And on the basis of those observations and on the basis of your
18 experience in other investigations, does it appear to you that the projectile
19 detonated upon impact with a roofing unit or upon impact with the ground?
20 A. It's a fact that it came into contact with the asphalt surface,
21 you can see damage on the asphalt surface. Had the contact been on the
22 roof above this, the damage caused by the projectile, the centre, the
23 stabiliser, would not be here. This location is therefore the very
24 centre of impact of the mortar projectile.
25 Q. We are going to move now to the subject of photographs. Is it
1 correct that you compiled a file of photo documentation relating to the
2 Markale I incident?
3 A. Yes.
4 MR. GAYNOR: Could I call up Exhibit P1709, please.
5 Q. Is this the -- on the left-hand part of the screen in front of
6 you, is that the first page of the file of photo documentation which you
7 prepared relating to the Markale I incident?
8 A. Yes, that is the document.
9 Q. Now, I think it's fair to say, Mr. Besic, that this photo file is
10 divided into three parts. The first part contains photographs of the
11 incident location, the second part contains photographs of the stabiliser
12 and of shrapnel, and the third part contains photographs of bodies of the
13 deceased in a morgue; is that correct?
14 A. That is correct.
15 Q. Could you briefly clarify which parts of those you personally
16 took photographs of?
17 A. I photographed the first photographs the way you divided them
18 into three groups, I photograph the first group, the actual location.
19 The second part was done by Suad Dzumisic in the lab, and he also did the
20 photographs with the scale. The third photograph was done by Miralem
21 Sarvan of the victims, and this was done in the morgue. This is a team.
22 In view of the circumstances in which the whole event occurred, there
23 were many wounded, so one team was at the location, one was working at
24 the Kosevo hospital, and so on and so forth.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Could we move, please, to page 8 of the photo file,
1 and could we blow up the photograph just so it's visible, and the text,
2 to include the text below it.
3 Q. Could you briefly tell the Court what this photograph depicts?
4 A. As the caption says, it's the place of impact of the mortar
5 projectile photographed after it was cleared from tissue and various
7 MR. GAYNOR: If we could go now, please, to page 12. This is
8 photograph number 11 of the documentation file.
9 Q. And just briefly describe what this photo shows?
10 A. It shows again the centre of the explosion, and the caption says
11 "after clearing of the debris in the place of impact of the mortar
12 projectile, the stabiliser was found of a mortar projectile calibre 120
14 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask the Registrar, please, to bring up page
15 4 of 65 ter 09620A.
16 Q. While that's coming, Mr. Besic, is it correct that yesterday you
17 provided to me photographs which are essentially print-outs of the
18 originals which you used to create this photo documentation file?
19 A. Yes. I brought it with me because we have saved the films. We
20 have a video library of all the events filmed during the war and at any
21 time we can make a still.
22 MR. GAYNOR: If I could ask the Registrar just to zoom in really
23 on the centre of the photograph that Mr. Besic provided to us which is on
24 the right. If I could just tell Your Honours that as you can see, the
25 quality of the photographs Mr. Besic has provided, they are the same
1 photographs, but we now have better quality images, so my suggestion, my
2 submission is to upload those photographs which we've received and to
3 associate them with this exhibit number so that Your Honours can inspect
4 them, if you wish. The Defence have received copies of them. They are
5 exactly the same photographs.
6 JUDGE KWON: Is there any objection from the Defence? That will
7 be done, Mr. Gaynor.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you. We'll see to that. Thank you,
9 Mr. President.
10 If we could move on to the next photograph, please, in the photo
11 file, which is photograph 12 on page 13. We can now close the other
13 Q. Just briefly tell us what this is, Mr. Besic.
14 A. This is the tail-fin of the mortar projectile photographed after
15 it was brought to the crime lab and photographed in black and white. You
16 see a ruler on one side with dividers at intervals of 1 centimetres.
17 This is always done with a photograph to determine the size.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Could we go to the next photograph, please.
19 Q. What does this depict?
20 A. It's the same projectile photographed from a different angle
21 where you see the fuse itself and the markings on the fuse.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Could I now ask the Registrar to produce 65 ter
23 10457, please. This is the artifact, Mr. Registrar, you have in your
24 custody. We can now show it to the witness, thank you.
25 Q. Mr. Besic, are you in a position to identify that object?
1 A. Yes, that's the object.
2 Q. Could --
3 A. There was another band here with a marking that we make for our
4 filing purposes, but it's missing here, but that's the object.
5 Q. So just to clarify the record, is that the stabiliser from the
6 Markale I incident?
7 A. Yes, that's the stabiliser.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Besic. We are now going to move to the Markale II
9 incident. Now, you participated in that investigation --
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, sorry to interrupt you, but just for
11 planning purpose, irrespective of our belated start, we are minded to
12 take a break at 12.40. We'll have a break for half an hour, so you have
13 ten minutes.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Very well. Thank you, Mr. President. And I forgot,
15 can I tender in evidence the Markale I stabiliser. This has already been
16 admitted in evidence as part of the record in the Galic trial. I
17 understand that the procedure here is that the same artifacts cannot be
18 entered into evidence in two different trials, so I understand that we
19 have to tender into evidence a photograph of the artifact. That's my
20 understanding of the procedure. I'm open to correction.
21 JUDGE KWON: It's due to some administrative matters, reasons.
22 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I mean the Galic trial is completely finished,
23 but I understand it still remains part of the evidentiary record in that
24 trial. Certainly if it could be admitted in evidence in this trial.
25 JUDGE KWON: That being the case, unless there's an objection
1 we'll do so. We'll give this a number for...
2 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P1967, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KWON: Photographs representing the real stabiliser.
4 MR. GAYNOR: That's correct, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE KWON: But it's always possible to see the real artifact.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, it will be in the custody the Registrar at all
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 MR. GAYNOR:
10 Q. Now, Mr. Besic, could you briefly describe your duties in the
11 investigation of the Markale II incident?
12 A. Well, when that incident happened, the work of a scenes-of-crime
13 officer consists of photographing the scene as found, video recording,
14 photograph documentation, and collecting all the evidence that could be
15 helpful in the investigation. In this case, a team was formed. We came
16 out to the scene and we carried out that part of the work. As you can
17 see from everything attached. If we hadn't done that job, there would be
18 no photo documentation, there would be no sketch, there would be no
19 projectile. At the end of the day, that's the point of police work.
20 Q. Is it correct that you personally took photographs of the
21 location of the Markale II incident on the day of the incident?
22 A. Yes, I did that and my colleague did the video recording. I made
23 photographs and my colleague filmed.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Can I ask for 65 ter 09533, please.
25 Q. To your right, Mr. Besic, you see a large whiteboard containing a
1 composite of several photographs. Could you describe for the court what
2 that depicts?
3 A. This photograph was taken from the second floor of the building
4 opposite Markale Market. It was a so-called panorama shot combined from
5 four photographs. You see a lot of blood-stains, a lot of debris. You
6 also see the centre of explosion of the mortar shell.
7 Q. Who took these photographs?
8 A. I did and I combined them to obtain this panoramic shot.
9 MR. GAYNOR: Could I tender that in evidence, please,
10 Mr. President.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit P1968, Your Honours.
13 MR. GAYNOR: I'm now going to play two different videos relating
14 to this incident, and I'm going to begin with 65 ter 40102, please.
15 [Video-clip played]
16 MR. GAYNOR:
17 Q. We stopped at 1 minute and 23 seconds. Mr. Besic, could you
18 describe in general terms what that portion of the video shows?
19 A. We saw a horrifying incident. You could see how many people fell
20 victim, people were running to each other's aid. What can you say.
21 Q. Could you specify which incident that was?
22 A. That's the Markale II incident in Mustafe Baseskije Street, it is
23 the northern entrance and exit to Markale.
24 MR. GAYNOR: If we could play now from 1 minute and 23 just to 1
25 minute and 26, just three seconds, please.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. GAYNOR:
3 Q. Do you see in that clip a man moving a bicycle, Mr. Besic? We'll
4 play it for you again if you wish.
5 A. Yes. That man is probably moving his bicycle to be able to
6 extract a body because everyone is trying to help other people here.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Could we play on, please, to 3 minutes and 20
9 [Video-clip played]
10 MR. GAYNOR: We can stop there, please.
11 Q. In that --
12 MR. GAYNOR: We stopped at 3 minutes and 25 seconds.
13 Q. In that extract, Mr. Besic, you observed bodies of the deceased
14 and injured being placed in vehicles; is that right?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you describe for the Court what kinds of vehicles were
17 usually used to take away the injured and the deceased from shelling
18 incidents on the basis of your experience?
19 A. As we were all able to see, there's a Volkswagon Golf, there is a
20 Jugo car produced locally. Cars of the newspaper in town.
21 Q. Was it the standard practice to leave the bodies of the deceased
22 at an incident location or was it standard practice otherwise? By
23 standard practice, I should say, the general situation in shelling
24 incidents in Sarajevo?
25 A. Well, wherever there were a large number of casualties, the first
1 priority was to give assistance to people as soon as possible, to
2 transfer them to the Kosevo hospital where they were met by doctors who
3 did the triage, who sent those who were already dead on arrival to the
4 mortuary, and helped the others. That was the standard practice in war
6 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you. We can take a break now, if you wish,
7 Mr. President.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll take a break, about half an hour. We
9 will resume at quarter past 1.00.
10 --- Recess taken at 12.42 p.m.
11 --- On resuming at 1.56 p.m.
12 JUDGE KWON: I apologise yet again for the delay. There was some
13 miscommunication amongst the Judges.
14 So let's continue, Mr. Gaynor.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
16 Could we play the remaining 35 seconds of the video that we were
17 watching before the break.
18 JUDGE KWON: Just for purposes of planning, we'll sit until five
19 to 3.00.
20 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
21 [Video-clip played]
22 MR. GAYNOR:
23 Q. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about that portion,
24 Mr. Besic.
25 First of all, I think we saw, at one point, a soldier in that,
1 and later on I'll show a video showing a couple of other soldiers. Did
2 you personally go to the Markale Market very often in 1994 and 1995?
3 A. Yes. A large number of people frequented Markale, without any
4 distinction, in civilian, in military uniform. It was just a place for
5 trading all sorts of goods. There were people in uniform as well as
7 Q. Could you explain to the Court, on the basis of your
8 observations, whether Markale Market was primarily frequented by
9 civilians or primarily frequented by military personnel?
10 A. Well, it was intended for civilians. But in view of the
11 situation in which the city was then, it was frequented by everyone,
12 including people in uniform, and many people wore uniform. It was
13 normally intended for civilians, but in those times people were wearing
14 all sorts of things, whatever they could lay their hands on.
15 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to tender that video into evidence,
16 Mr. President.
17 JUDGE KWON: The whole of it?
18 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, all of it. We've played all of it. The final
19 portion we've played was from 3 minutes and 25 until 4 minutes.
20 JUDGE KWON: It will be admitted.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P1969, Your Honours.
22 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to move to a video which has already
23 been admitted in evidence as P1450, and I'll be playing some extracts
24 from that. Initially, I'd like to play the first minute of this video,
1 [Video-clip played]
2 MR. GAYNOR: We've stopped at 48 seconds.
3 Q. Mr. Besic, it's been repeatedly asserted in this court that many
4 of the bodies at the Markale I and Markale II incidents were brought from
5 the front-line, that the bodies were already dead. I want to ask you if
6 you can comment on that assertion.
7 A. It's difficult to comment. We can see, with our own eyes,
8 everything that happened. All sorts of stories circulated, that bodies
9 were brought there and planted there. However, we've seen what's going
10 on. If dead bodies had been brought here, then the wounded people here
11 would not be acting this way. You see the man without his lower leg. If
12 you look at the other photographs and recordings, you will see parts of
13 extremities. There were all sorts of stories and guesses, but the facts
14 are here.
15 Q. Do you personally have any experience with the exchange of bodies
16 which have been dead for some time?
17 A. Yes. We frequently worked in the mortuary of the
18 Kosevo Hospital. All bodies received from exchanges had to be examined
19 by the police, the police had to describe their condition, and those
20 bodies received from exchanges and these bodies here are very, very
22 Q. Explain, briefly, in what way they are very, very different.
23 A. If we look at the photographs of the bodies in mortuaries, bodies
24 brought from Markale I and Markale II, you will see that those are fresh
25 bodies that have no soil on them, their skin is not puckered up, whereas
1 the bodies received from exchanges are received in very bad condition,
2 the skin puckered up, a lot of mud and soil on them, they are in sacks,
3 and so on.
4 Q. Could you explain approximately when you personally participated
5 in the exchange of dead bodies?
6 A. Well, the job of the police, with all the bodies received from
7 exchanges at the Kosevo Hospital, was to send a team. Usually, my
8 colleagues and I went. We would photograph, make records and
9 documentation, and within a certain time the bodies had to be identified.
10 That was done in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, through to the end.
11 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to ask now if we can play from 1 minute and
12 30 seconds to 1 minute and 50 seconds.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 MR. GAYNOR: Stop there, please.
15 We're at 1 minute and 51 seconds.
16 Q. Could you explain what building that is we see on the screen?
17 A. This entrance/exit on the north side to Markale, formerly
18 Marsal Tita Street, now called Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.
19 Q. Now, simply to clarify and to orient the Court here, could you
20 explain, where you say "that's the north side," that's the north side of
21 what building, exactly?
22 A. Well, that's the northern side of Markale, the entry/exit into
23 Markale, and there is another southern entrance from Vase Miskina Street.
24 That's the main entrance. This is one of the other entrances from
25 Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street. There are another two side entrances, but
1 they are not used.
2 Q. The impact location for the Markale I incident, how far away was
3 it from the impact location for the Markale II incident?
4 A. Well, it's a distance of 100, 150 metres, not more, in the same
5 street, Mula Mustafe Baseskije.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Could we --
7 JUDGE KWON: Just for clarification, the entrance that we are
8 seeing is the entrance that is in that panoramic view, Mr. Besic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 MR. GAYNOR:
12 Q. In respect of the picture on the screen in front of you,
13 approximately where -- how far from the door was the impact location?
14 A. Looking from this angle, the point of impact is on the right-hand
15 side some 4 to 5 metres away.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Could we play on now, please.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 MR. GAYNOR: Stop there, please.
19 Q. Now, could you describe what we're seeing in this picture here?
20 A. Yes. Here we see one body in uniform. They are commenting that
21 he is a soldier, he is probably a soldier who came there to buy
22 something, or he was passing by and he got hit.
23 MR. GAYNOR: That was at 2 minutes and 30 seconds.
24 Q. Did you at any stage encounter any information to suggest that
25 any soldiers had been placed at the site?
1 A. In that part of town around the market, there is no single
2 location holding members of the armed forces. At least I'm not aware of
3 any such location. Further away, there is the army hall, but it's some
4 500 metres away. And in this neighbourhood around Markale I and
5 Markale II, there is no location holding BH Army members.
6 Q. Did you encounter any information to suggest that any corpses of
7 soldiers had been placed at this location?
8 A. No. No, I'm not aware of that.
9 MR. GAYNOR: Can we play on now until 3 minutes and 7 seconds.
10 [Video-clip played]
11 MR. GAYNOR: If we could stop there, please.
12 Q. Could you confirm what door that is? That's at 3 minutes and 7
14 A. Entrance/exit on the north side from the Mula Mustafe Baseskije
16 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like now to skip to 3 minutes and 40 seconds and
17 play for 20 seconds, please.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. GAYNOR: And stop, please. We stopped at 4 minutes and 2
21 Q. Could you describe what we saw in that extract?
22 A. This is the situation as found when we came. There are members
23 of the UN as well. Most of the location has already been cleared from
24 people and from the wounded, and the place has already been secured by
25 the police. And we proceeded to work to determine the facts of this
2 MR. GAYNOR: Could you play on for 30 seconds, please.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. GAYNOR: Stop there, please. Stopped at 4 minutes and 35
6 Q. Can you describe your understanding of what was going on in that
8 A. On this picture, we see that UN members are measuring the
9 distance from the center of the explosion to the northern wall of the
10 Markale Market, just close to the entrance. The white chalk marks the
11 damage at the center of the explosion and damage incurred by shrapnel.
12 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to move now to 6 minutes and 45 seconds.
13 If we can play from there until the end.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
16 Q. What did you understand to be taking place in that final clip?
17 A. This is a list of the casualties in Kosevo Hospital. And this
18 woman speaking was saying where each injured person was, most of them
19 being in the Orthopaedics Department, which indicates that there were
20 many injuries to the extremities in this incident.
21 Q. Thank you. Now, that ends the Markale II portion. I simply wish
22 to clarify the photographs which you gave me yesterday.
23 Is it correct that you gave me photographs relating to photo
24 files from the Markale I incident, the Markale II incident, and the
25 incident which took place in Dobrinja on the 4th of February, 1994?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, the photographs we've received from
3 Mr. Besic are some -- are most, but not all, of the photographs in those
4 photo files relating to those three incidents, which have already been
5 admitted in evidence, and we have up-loaded the photographs that we have.
6 So I would just like to read into the record the 65 ter numbers
7 pertaining to the higher-quality images which have been up-loaded into
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 MR. GAYNOR: In respect of P1709, which is the photo file for
11 Markale I, the images received from Mr. Besic are at 65 ter 09620A. In
12 respect of P1926, which is the photo file relating to Markale II, the
13 photos received from Mr. Besic are at 65 ter 09900A. Finally, in respect
14 of P1707, which is the photo documentation file relating to the Dobrinja
15 incident, which is Incident G-7, the photographs received from Mr. Besic
16 are at 65 ter 09624A.
17 I'd like to deal now with the associated -- I'd like to tender
18 those in evidence, and I'd also like to deal with the outstanding
19 associated exhibits, Mr. President.
20 JUDGE KWON: What do you mean by "tendering"? Do you like to
21 replace the current pictures?
22 MR. GAYNOR: No, no. The current pictures are in there. They
23 are the official photo documentation files. These are simply
24 high-resolution images of the same photographs, substantially.
25 JUDGE KWON: So 9620A, 9900A, 9624A?
1 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, those three 65 ter numbers.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. They will be admitted.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 65 ter 09620A will be P1970. 65 ter 09900A will be P1971. And
5 65 ter 09624A will be P1972. Thank you.
6 MR. GAYNOR: Now, in respect of the balance of the associated
7 exhibits, we pointed out, on the filing which we submitted for Mr. Besic
8 on the 22nd October, I think it was, the exhibit numbers of those
9 associated exhibits which have been admitted, and there are two further
10 associated exhibits which have since been admitted since we made our
11 filing. So I can weed out the ones which have not yet been admitted, or
12 as Your Honours wish.
13 JUDGE KWON: Let's do that.
14 MR. GAYNOR: The ones -- the associated exhibits which have not
15 yet been admitted are 09 -- 65 ter 09619, 10457, 10228, 09899, 10226 and
16 09910. So I would tender those to be admitted as associated exhibits.
17 JUDGE KWON: We dealt with 10457 already. That's the real one?
18 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. That's correct. Yes,
19 thank you.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The Registry will assign
21 exhibit numbers in due course.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 What about 9910? Oh, yes, you mentioned it at the end. I think
24 that's consistent with what I have. Thank you.
25 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
1 That ends the direct examination.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.
3 Mr. Besic, you'll further be asked by Mr. Karadzic.
4 Mr. Karadzic, let's begin your cross-examination.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
6 Good afternoon to everyone.
7 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Besic, good afternoon.
10 A. Good afternoon.
11 Q. I would just briefly like to throw some light on the following.
12 You started to work at the police in 1975?
13 A. Yes, the 1st of March, 1975, and I have been working as a crime
14 technician from 1987.
15 Q. Although we need to make a break --
16 JUDGE KWON: That's what I wanted to say.
17 Mr. Besic, because the question and answers should be interpreted
18 into English, another official language of the United Nations -- of the
19 Tribunal, so I would like you to put a pause between the question and
20 answer. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
22 Q. The 12 years that you worked there, what was the type of work
23 that you were doing?
24 A. I continued to work at the police, but I worked in the
25 Technical Service.
1 Q. Thank you. When you became a crime technician and started to
2 work in that branch, you processed crime scenes, was this homicide or
3 something else?
4 A. When I began to work in this field, I had to complete a six-month
5 course first, which I completed. And then in 1988, I began to work
6 actively on on-site investigations, and these were usually homicides,
7 robberies, burglaries, traffic accidents, other types of crimes and
9 Q. Thank you. And how many homicides did you investigate before the
10 war broke out? Before Markale, let's say. Before the war broke out,
11 let's say.
12 A. During the four years, I conducted investigations into four
13 homicides. There were very few cases at that time of homicide. And this
14 required a more serious investigation, a more specific one.
15 Q. Thank you. All of this was conducted as part of the
16 investigation which was then done for a case which was brought to trial
17 pursuant to provisions of the criminal law; is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And in that sense, there were certain rules about the way the
20 scene should be processed; is that right?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Let us now go back to Markale I.
23 You took part in the on-scene investigation. Can you please tell
24 us when you arrived at the market after the Markale I incident? When did
25 you arrive at the market, and who came with you?
1 A. After the Markale I incident, after receiving information, in
2 some 10 minutes the investigation team was formed, comprising the
3 investigative judge, the technician, the policemen, and in some 15 or 14
4 minutes, we were there. By the time we got there, the scene was secured
5 by policemen from the Stari Grad Police Station.
6 Q. When you say "secured," what does that mean? What does it mean,
7 to secure the scene?
8 A. That means that the scene is secured from people entering and
9 altering the scene in any way, the existing scene. This is something
10 that was done by policemen from the Police Administration in Stari Grad.
11 They did not allow any passersby or any civilians to enter the scene.
12 Q. Am I right when I say that the incident occurred at 1220 hours,
13 that the explosion occurred at 1220 hours?
14 Let me help you. Let's look at 65 ter 09634, 09634. In the
15 Serbian, this is page 5, and in the English, maybe it's page 4.
16 In the first paragraph, we can see that the notification arrived
17 at 1320 hours; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, that is what it says in the report, that the notification
19 arrived at 1320 hours.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Can we now look at the report from the investigation. This is
22 9622, 65 ter 9622.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Is this the report from the investigation, which states that from
25 1320 to 1600 hours, a criminal/technical examination of the site was
1 conducted; is that correct?
2 A. Yes. I think five minutes is the time -- is off here. The
3 investigation began at 1330 hours, and it was completed at 1600 hours.
4 In one place, also, it says that the explosion occurred at 1300 hours.
5 So there is a little bit of a time difference here amounting to some five
6 to ten minutes.
7 Q. Thank you. You managed, in 10 minutes, to put together a team
8 and to come to the scene of the incident; is that correct?
9 A. No. Actually, the team was formed and came to the scene in a
10 period of 40 minutes.
11 Q. Can you look at the last sentence of the first paragraph:
12 "The projectile dropped around 1220 hours."
13 You were informed at 1320 hours, and at 1330 you were already at
14 the scene; is that correct?
15 A. Yes, that is correct.
16 Q. Isn't it a little bit unusual that you are informed about it a
17 whole hour after the projectile dropped?
18 A. We received the notification -- the Communication Centre was
19 notified by radio that there was a projectile that landed, that a lot of
20 people were wounded. A team is formed along the command -- chain of
21 command, and a judge is appointed, and the team goes to the scene. In
22 view of the type of incident that occurred, it's possible that there are
23 some errors in this.
24 Q. In the previous document, it states that the notification arrived
25 at 1320 hours, and then that you were at the scene already at 1330 hours.
1 And it's not in dispute in any of the documents that the explosion,
2 itself, occurred at 1220 hours. What happened during that hour before
3 you were informed?
4 A. Since we are not all in one building, the prosecutors are in one
5 building, the judges are in another, the police is in another location,
6 we needed time to form the team, the duty prosecutor, duty investigating
7 judge, operative workers, and that is exactly that amount of 40 minutes
8 or so that we needed in order to form a team. Also, if the location
9 is -- actually, in this case the location is some 500 to 700 metres away
10 from where the police were.
11 Q. Yes, but I don't see those 40 minutes. I see that the shell fell
12 at 1220, that the information reached you at 1320, and that very quickly
13 you came to the scene. It seems that you did not waste that much time.
14 Someone else wasted an hour. And are you able, then, to tell us what
15 happened to this time, what happened in that hour?
16 A. No, I'm not able to tell you that.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you take with you a photographer or a person who
18 made the video-recording?
19 A. Yes. He's an integral part of the team. There is a crime
20 technician that is in the team, a person who is a videographer, and other
21 members of the team.
22 Q. Thank you. How many videographers did you take?
23 A. Just one, Suad --
24 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last name.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Did you have any other people who were video-recording at the
3 JUDGE KWON: Could you tell the name of the gentleman who took
4 the video? The first name is Suad, and the interpreter couldn't hear his
5 last name.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no. I mixed up Markale I
7 and Markale II. It was Zlatan Sadikovic who was the one who was
8 recording at Markale I.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. For the transcript, can you spell the last name, Sadikovic,
11 because the last name is not recorded correctly in the transcript.
12 I think I spelled it -- did I spell the name correctly, this Sadikovic?
13 Mr. Besic, I need your confirmation. Did I spell it correctly?
14 Is the last name spelled correctly in the transcript now?
15 A. Yes, Zlatan Sadikovic.
16 Q. Thank you. And did Sadikovic, Zlatan, come with you, and was he
17 a part of your official team, an official photographer?
18 A. Yes, he was part of the team. At that time, he was working at
19 the CSB, and he was working on developing films in our film lab. And he
20 also was in charge of the video camera, and he would be present at
21 certain on-site investigations to help us.
22 Q. Thank you. And did you take him with you?
23 A. Yes, he was a part of the team.
24 Q. When you came to Markale, was the evacuation of those wounded and
25 killed already completed?
1 A. Yes, the scene was already free. All the wounded and the corpses
2 had been taken away. There were no bodies. Only the extremities were
3 left, tissue and blood.
4 Q. So this is what this hour was spent on; is that correct?
5 A. Well, probably at the point of impact and explosion, you could
6 see from the video footage the people going in and out of the scene, the
7 kind of chaos, the vehicles coming -- arriving to take people away for
8 treatment, so I don't know whether this was something that took 40
9 minutes or an hour.
10 Q. As a crime technician, did you have any problems with the fact
11 that you were summoned only after the bodies were removed and the scene
12 altered in a way that was not permissible under the law?
13 A. No, we didn't really pay much attention to that. There was a
14 large number of people and corpses. People needed treatment. This is
15 not something that accords with the correct procedure according to the
16 law, but this is a humanitarian act, a humanitarian issue, so I believe
17 that that was how they should have done it. According to the law, the
18 corpse should be left at the scene, if it's one corpse or two, but this
19 is something that can be applied in peacetime. In wartime, the
20 propositions change.
21 Q. Am I to understand that the wounded were supposed to be taken
22 care of immediately, but the dead should have stayed on the scene for
23 purposes of crime scene investigation?
24 A. Yes, in peacetime. But in wartime, humane considerations come
25 first. This was something like a force majeure. Plus when something
1 like that happens, there is no police on the spot. People need to be
2 taken care of. People are more important.
3 Q. Do you know who was the first to come to the aid of the wounded
4 and the dead at Markale I?
5 A. I was not at the scene, nor could I have been at the scene. Like
6 everyone else, I saw it all from the videos and on television. I saw the
7 people who came to help, people who were on the market, who happened to
8 be on the market and were not injured. The same people who were on the
9 market already came to the aid of others, those who were lucky enough not
10 to be injured themselves.
11 Q. Is it true that this work was mostly done by the soldiers and the
12 policemen who were there?
13 A. In my previous evidence, I said that it was a market open to
14 everyone. It is not strictly for civilians or strictly for the army.
15 Everyone frequents that market. As for the police, policemen are often
16 present to prevent theft and such. And those members of the army who
17 were there were probably off duty and came to the market to get
18 cigarettes and swap goods, cigarettes for flour, or oil, or something.
19 Q. Can you tell us the number of injured?
20 A. It's difficult to say after all this time. The first figures
21 were something like 60 people, but it turned out that there were 35, 40
22 in the mortuary, and the bodies -- and the injured [as interpreted]
23 buried in numbers. I cannot say whether it's 58 or 60.
24 Q. And how many wounded; 200 something?
25 A. Approximately. Whether it's a little more or a little less, I
1 did not find out.
2 Q. And they were being aided by those who happened to be on the
3 market and who were lucky enough, as you said, not to be wounded or
5 A. Many people ran to them, perhaps out of curiosity, wishing to
6 help. People who were passing by ran to the market after it happened.
7 Q. But, in any case, there were many of those who were not hurt by
9 A. Yes, a certain number.
10 Q. Are we then to conclude that there were between 400 and 500
11 people at the market?
12 A. Yes, it's likely that there were many people there at that time.
13 It's a very large surface. It's possible that there were 400, 500
14 people. The market can hold a thousand, perhaps. Yes, I would agree
15 with 400, 500.
16 Q. Thank you. I asked, but never got the answer. Was there more
17 than one cameraman?
18 A. As far as the police is concerned, there was just one cameraman,
19 Zlatan Sadikovic, and no one else. If there was anyone else filming,
20 they could only have filmed from a distance.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now play 65 ter 40125. It's
22 an exhibit already, P1711, from 1 minute 05 to 1 minute 17, and later
23 from 5 minutes 03 to 5 minutes 11.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Tell us, what kind of goods were available at Markale attractive
1 enough to draw 500 people?
2 [Video-clip played]
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see, there's a large
4 variety of items, clothing, and everything else. If you think it was
5 just a green market, selling fruits and vegetables, that's very far from
6 reality. Each stall had something different. If you take the number of
7 sellers and the number of people who came to trade and swap things, it
8 could have easily been more than 500.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you agree that we see on this footage that only one-fifth of
11 the stalls, perhaps, hold something, and even that is very insignificant?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Play back to the previous image.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. What could have possibly drawn 500 people to a market like this?
15 A. What we see on the stalls now is the narrow circle of the
16 explosion. The area to the side was not devastated, and the sellers who
17 were there had probably picked up their goods in a hurry and left.
18 That's why the stalls are empty.
19 Q. Do you think the goods were collected and taken away before the
20 wounded and the dead were helped?
21 A. Various people and passersby were helping the injured, and the
22 sellers probably picked up their property and ran from the scene.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we'll see a
24 different film recording the evacuation, showing the market as empty as
25 it looks on this image.
1 Can we see 503 to 511? Oh, sorry, this is it. This has already
2 been exhibited. Thank you.
3 Could we now look at 65 ter 09513.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Did you make this sketch of this incident? 09513.
6 Did you, Mr. Besic, make the sketch of the Markale I incident?
7 A. I can't say with any certainty that I worked on this one.
8 JUDGE KWON: Can you switch into e-court from Sanction. Yes.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. We see that sketch here. Is this a drawing of the Markale
11 Market, showing the dimensions of the main surface?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In this layout of stalls, can you mark where the stalls actually
14 holding any goods were?
15 A. I couldn't do that. I don't know how to mark, and more or less
16 every stall or every other stall was occupied by a seller, by a vendor.
17 I really cannot say. This shows the total number of stalls at the
18 market. But how many goods there were, I can't say.
19 Q. And can you mark the place of the incident? This, towards the
20 bottom of the picture, is Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street?
21 A. Yes, that's where the train line goes, and this is the place of
22 the incident.
23 Q. Thank you. Can you now tell us, where were these 300 people hurt
24 by shrapnel scattered?
25 A. I can try, but the shrapnel is shrapnel. Shrapnel does not stay
1 in the center of the explosion; it travels. It can hurt you at 50 metres
2 distance. Most of the injured were in this area.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Objection, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
5 MR. GAYNOR: I don't believe Mr. Karadzic has elicited evidence
6 that 300 people were hurt by shrapnel.
7 JUDGE KWON: Can you give us the reference?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if 67 were dead and over 200
9 were injured, the figure comes close to 300. It's official information.
10 That is the score of Markale I.
11 Let us now look at G-8, 5th February. Sixty-six dead and over
12 140 injured, but some reports refer to over 200 injured and 68 dead from
13 a mortar shell. This 120-millimetre shell killed 66 and killed at least
14 140. And according to other reports, there were 180 to 190 injured.
15 That's the G-8 schedule.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, did you mean the number or the way they
17 were hurt?
18 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I understood the question to refer to the
19 number of persons injured by shrapnel, and I didn't -- I thought that was
20 around 200. Now he's adding 200 to those who died to get 268.
21 JUDGE KWON: So on that basis, we can carry on.
22 What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?
23 Do you remember the question or shall I ask the accused to repeat
24 his question, Mr. Besic?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember the question.
1 I put a circle around an area that was very busy. Whether there
2 were 200 or 260, it's hard to say. These were the first reports that
3 were necessarily very terse. It was difficult to estimate the number of
4 people injured. In the mortuary, we had at that time 35 to 40 bodies.
5 The number of the injured, as reported, increased all the time. It's
6 difficult to give precise figures.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Well, the indictment is rather precise, and I'm now wondering
9 about a couple of things.
10 First of all, what were 500 people doing in an empty market?
11 Second, taking into account all these stalls, where did they fit? Three,
12 how did shrapnel reach so many people, with all these obstacles and
13 stalls and bodies, because one body covers another? Can you, as a
14 scenes-of-crime officer, explain --
15 JUDGE KWON: You're not making a speech now. Ask questions one
16 by one.
17 What was your question?
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. My question was: What were 500 people doing in an empty market?
20 My other question is: Where were these people standing who were hurt by
22 JUDGE MORRISON: Let the witness answer each question in turn,
23 Dr. Karadzic. It doesn't help anybody to ask compound questions.
24 Your first question that you were asked if you could answer it
25 was: What were 500 people doing in what was said to have been an empty
1 market? Can you help us on that, Mr. Witness?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we cannot assert with
3 certainty that all the stalls were empty. That's one.
4 People came out of curiosity, sometimes looking for just one
5 thing. Whether they will find stalls full or bare, they don't know in
6 advance. They came to the market to see what there was. I can't tell
7 you what they were doing at the market.
8 The second question, please.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Well, you are a scenes-of-crime officer and you know about these
11 things. Taking into account all these stalls and all these obstacles,
12 where did these 200 - some reports say 300 - people fit when they were
13 hurt by shrapnel, mortally or otherwise? Where could they have possibly
14 stood in this area to be reached by shrapnel?
15 A. Well, the dead were probably close to the center of the
16 explosion. And those injured were some 15 to 50 metres away, and, of
17 course, they could be hurt by shrapnel, because it penetrates through
18 tin, through plastic. They can easily be injured in the upper arms, the
19 upper body. A shell is an explosive device created to kill, to kill the
21 Q. Yes, but --
22 A. What I just used, to create -- to kill the enemy, that was the
23 term we used in the JNA, when we served there, to kill enemy manpower.
24 It has nothing to do with actual hostility.
25 Q. Yes, those were hostilities, and not anymore. Now, who
1 recorded -- who filmed before you came, before the evacuation was
3 A. I can't tell you. I was not there. I don't know who could have
4 possibly done it. It could have been a wandering reporter. There were
5 many journalists and even foreign reporters roaming the town, hunting for
6 news. That was their job. It was a scoop to be the first on the scene
7 of some incident.
8 Q. Do you remember that at the time, Radio Hayat was already
10 A. Yes, Radio Hayat was operative.
11 Q. There was a programme at this radio station where people could
12 call in live during the programme. Are you aware of that?
13 A. No, because the phone lines were not working. Definitely, I can
14 really state that with certainty. In 1994, the telephones were not
15 operating. I don't know how they could have been calling in live to a
16 programme. I really don't know that.
17 Q. Well, let me draw your attention -- let me carefully -- have you
18 listened to this audio-recording that we're going to play?
19 We don't have a transcript, so we would kindly ask you to --
20 JUDGE KWON: Do you like the witness to put his signature on this
21 marked sketch and you tender it?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, please. Yes, please.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Mr. Besic, would you kindly place the date and your initials on
25 this sketch?
1 A. [Marks]
2 Q. Number 1 is the center of the explosion. Number 2 is the
3 concentration of the killed and those wounded.
4 And the last question for today: This is a 40-second clip --
5 JUDGE KWON: No, we have to rise. The Appeals Chamber will be
6 here very soon, so we have to vacate as soon as possible.
7 THE REGISTRAR: And, Your Honours, the exhibit number for the
8 marked map will be Exhibit D891. Thank you.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 We'll adjourn for today. We'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.
11 In the meantime, Mr. Besic, you are not supposed to discuss about
12 your evidence with anybody else.
13 We'll rise.
14 [The witness stands down]
15 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.57 p.m.,
16 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of
17 December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.