Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 9407

 1                           Wednesday, 8 December 2010

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 11.47 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning to you all.  My apologies for having

 7     kept everybody waiting due to a logistical problem.  So why don't we

 8     begin.  If the witness kindly take the solemn declaration.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The truth, the whole truth, and

10     nothing but the truth.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated, Mr. Besic.

12             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14                           WITNESS:  SEAD BESIC

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Examination by Gaynor:

17        Q.   Witness, could you state your fall name, please?

18        A.   My same is Sead Besic.

19        Q.   What is your current occupation?

20        A.   I'm working at the canton Sarajevo MUP.  I'm criminal technician,

21     I'm junior inspector.  That is my position.

22        Q.   You previously testified in the trials of Stanislav Galic,

23     Dragomir Milosevic, and Momcilo Perisic; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Previously provided statements to the Office of the Prosecutor of

Page 9408

 1     this Tribunal?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And you've had an opportunity, I believe, to review an

 4     amalgamated statement containing relevant portions of your previous

 5     testimonies and statements; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask the Registrar to bring up 65 ter 22060,

 8     please.

 9        Q.   In front of you, Mr. Besic, do you see the first page of your

10     amalgamated statement?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Does the amalgamated statement accurately reflect the evidence

13     you have previously given, and if you were examined on the same topics

14     today, would you provide the same information to the Court?

15        A.   Yes.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to seek admission of the amalgamated

17     statements, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it will be admitted.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1966, Your Honours.

20             MR. GAYNOR:

21        Q.   I'll now read a short summary of the statement of Mr. Besic.

22             Mr. Besic was -- Mr. Besic was a criminal technician in the CSB

23     Sarajevo of the RBiH MUP.  He participated in investigations of shelling

24     and sniping incidents in Sarajevo.  Mr. Besic's duties involved preparing

25     diagrams and photographs of crime scenes and retrieving physical

Page 9409

 1     evidence.  His statement concerns investigations into the shelling of a

 2     residential area in Dobrinja on the 4th of February, 1994.  The shelling

 3     of the Markale Market on the 5th of February 1994, and on the 28th of

 4     August, 1995, and the sniping incident on the 18th of November, 1994.  In

 5     respect of the Markale incident on the 4th of February, 1994, Markale I

 6     in which 66 people were killed and over 140 were wounded, Mr. Besic

 7     states that during the initial examination of the impact point, the

 8     stabiliser could not be seen above ground level.  Mr. Besic participated

 9     in cleaning the area around the impact point.  The stabiliser was

10     subsequently removed by French UNPROFOR personnel and later provided to

11     Mr. Besic.  Mr. Besic confirms that scene, including part of the work by

12     a member of UNPROFOR, to remove the stabiliser was recorded by one of his

13     colleagues using a video camera.

14             Mr. Besic also participated in the investigation of the shelling

15     of the Markale Market on the 28th of August, 1995, Markale II, which

16     killed 43 people and injured 75.  Mr. Besic took a number of photographs

17     and prepared a diagram of the incident scene.  Mr. Besic also

18     participated in an investigation of a scheduled sniping incident on the

19     18th of November, 1994, in which Dzenana Sokolovic and her son Nermin

20     Divovic were fired on while walking on Zmaja Od Bosne.  Dzenana Sokolovic

21     was wounded and her son was killed.

22             At the time of the incident, they had been walking home from

23     Frazno where -- pardon me, that's Hrasno, where they had gone to collect

24     firewood the previous day.  Mr. Besic's tasks were to photograph and to

25     make a diagram of the scene.  That concludes the summary.

Page 9410

 1        Q.   Mr. Besic, my questions to you today will only concern the

 2     Markale I incident and the Markale II incident.  Starting with Markale I,

 3     I'd like to call up a video which has been admitted as P1711.  If we

 4     could play that video, please.  We are going to play from the start until

 5     11 seconds.

 6                                [Video-clip played]

 7             MR. GAYNOR:

 8        Q.   Mr. Besic, could you describe the scene that you've just seen on

 9     the screen in front of you?

10        A.   Yes, this is Markale I market.  On the photograph, you can see

11     the damage, the stalls turned over, and on the photograph you can also

12     see me, the person that you can see on the photograph is me.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  If we can now go to 2 minutes and 33 seconds,

14     please.  If we could play that for a few.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. GAYNOR:

17        Q.   Now, if we could stop there, please.  What we've stopped now at 2

18     minutes and 38 seconds.  What did you see in that portion of the video,

19     Mr. Besic?

20        A.   This is the centre of the mortar shell explosion where you can

21     see material that has fallen on to this place.  By cleaning it, you can

22     see much better, the centre of the explosion of the mortar projectile.

23        Q.   Was it your standard practice to clean the area around the impact

24     of a mortar projectile during your investigations?

25        A.   Yes, that is a standard thing because in order to be able to see

Page 9411

 1     exactly the centre of the impact and the damage on the asphalt indicating

 2     the direction from which the projectile came.

 3        Q.   How exactly did you clean the area around the impact point?

 4        A.   This place I cleaned -- I didn't have a broom or anything like

 5     that, so I used a cloth and I removed the material composed of different

 6     objects, tissue, blood, and so on.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could play on now from 02:38 until 03:30.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. GAYNOR:

10        Q.   Now, in general terms what kind of objects were on sale at

11     Markale Market in February 1994?

12        A.   Flour, oil, cigarettes, lighters, a lot of items that were used

13     for different kind of gas installations.  Very few sort -- types of fruit

14     and vegetables were there.  This is the kind of thing that was sold at

15     the Markale Market at that time.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask the technical booth to turn on the sound

17     of the video for the next -- in fact for all of the videos we are going

18     to play today.  Now, I'd like to play the next 15 seconds and I'd like

19     you to listen carefully to the voices, please, Mr. Besic.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop it there, stopped at 3 minutes and 45 seconds.

22        Q.   Did you hear those voices, Mr. Besic?

23        A.   Yes, I heard that one voice.

24        Q.   What was the voice that you heard and who was that person?

25        A.   That was my voice because I was addressing the judge to permit us

Page 9412

 1     to begin the cleaning and freeing up of the material from the centre of

 2     explosion so that we could have a better view of the point of impact.

 3        Q.   So is it right that you did not begin cleaning that location

 4     until the Judge gave you permission to do so?

 5        A.   All the actions performed during an on-site investigation have to

 6     be done pursuant to the agreement and permission of the investigating

 7     judge.  No act can be done without that.

 8        Q.   Now, just visible on the right-hand portion of the screen in

 9     front of you, one sees a pair of scissors.  Do you have any idea why one

10     might find scissors at that location?

11        A.   The scissors probably dropped from a market stall.  All kinds of

12     things were being sold at the market.  People were offering anything in

13     order to get a box of cigarettes, a litre of oil, sugar, flour in return,

14     so among other objects the scissors were also there.  They probably fell

15     from one of the stalls, there's no other reason for them to be there.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we now go to 6 minutes and 38 seconds, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Mr. Gaynor.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We haven't heard the translation of that voice

20     asking for the permission, but I don't take it it's challenged by the

21     Defence.  We can carry on then on that basis.  Thank you.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we can -- we'll start

23     playing at 6:38.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop please at 6:42.

Page 9413

 1        Q.   What do you see on the screen in front of you now, Mr. Besic?

 2        A.   You can see the point of impact there of the mortar projectile,

 3     the clearing has been done precisely in order to see the markings on the

 4     ground because they are used in order to determine the direction from

 5     which the projectile came.  The sticks -- actually aids in the shape of

 6     the letter T were placed by the ballistics experts, and based on the

 7     damage of the asphalt surface they can determine the direction from where

 8     the projectile came.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that it was not part of your duties to determine

10     the direction of fire?

11        A.   That is correct.  This was something that was done by the

12     ballistics experts.  That was their job.

13        Q.   Do you happen to remember who they were, the ballistics experts

14     in this particular instance?

15        A.   Mirza Sabljica, ballistics expert was there.  And this other one,

16     he died.  I cannot remember his name.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  If we could now play from 08:37 to

18     08:47, please.

19                           [Video-clip played]

20             MR. GAYNOR:

21        Q.   What -- stop it there.  We stopped at 08:47.  What do you see on

22     the screen in front of you now, Mr. Besic?

23        A.   This is the very centre of the explosion of the mortar

24     projectile.  You can see parts of the soil, the asphalt, pebbles that are

25     in the centre itself.

Page 9414

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could now play on until 09:20, please.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Stopped at just before 09:20.

 4        Q.   Could you describe for the court what you saw in that portion of

 5     the video, please?

 6        A.   In this part of the recording you can see the clearing of the

 7     very centre of the explosion.  And after the asphalt, the pebbles, and

 8     the other material, the soil was removed, the stabiliser was found of the

 9     120-millimetre mortar shell.

10        Q.   Did any members of the BiH MUP participate in removing the

11     pebbles and removing the stabiliser?

12        A.   You can see from this that this was done by members of the UN,

13     specifically from the FrenchBat.  We didn't want to do anything until

14     they came and saw for themselves and extracted the projectile.

15        Q.   Why was it you didn't want to do anything until they came and saw

16     for themselves?

17        A.   There were different kinds of speculations during previous

18     shelling and when people were killed, so we decided that it was better

19     that they do it rather than us.

20        Q.   Now, after the members of FrenchBat removed the stabiliser, who

21     did they give it to?

22        A.   I took the stabiliser fin from the mortar shell and took it to

23     the CSB crime lab as an exhibit, as evidence where it was properly

24     recorded, packed, and kept or stored as an exhibit.

25        Q.   On the following day at what -- which is the 6th of February,

Page 9415

 1     1994, what if anything happened to the stabiliser?

 2        A.   On the 6th of February a team was formed for ballistics expertise

 3     which went to the scene again which was secured over a period of 24

 4     hours, and my boss at that time Mohammed Hadzisakovic, went with the team

 5     as head of the criminal investigations.  He took the fin with him to the

 6     location where the place was examined by ballistics experts, specifically

 7     Berko Zecevic, who actually compiled a report about this particular

 8     projectile and its impact.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to play on from the current location,

10     to 09:20 until 09:39.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. GAYNOR:

13        Q.   Now, where do you understand this footage has been taken?

14        A.   This was taken at the Kosevo hospital in the morgue.  All the

15     corpses were transferred to the morgue of the Kosevo hospital.  We see a

16     corpse here that is placed on a corrugated iron strip which had been on

17     the roof of one of the stalls at the market, and people used it as a

18     stretcher.  They used the roof parts of the stalls as stretchers.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could just play another five seconds, perhaps.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. GAYNOR:

23        Q.   Did you see in that clip that there were several bodies which

24     were lying on parts of roofing unit, if I may put it that way, which had

25     been used as stretchers, it wasn't just one body?

Page 9416

 1        A.   Yes, you can see the corpses on several locations that are laid

 2     on the roofing pieces from the stalls.  People used all kind of things to

 3     transport the wounded, the casualties, the dead, to the hospital as soon

 4     as possible and some to the morgue.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  The video-clip stopped there at 10 minutes and 3

 6     seconds.  If we could now play from 19 minutes and 50 seconds until 20

 7     minutes.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MR. GAYNOR:

10        Q.   Now, we can see on the bottom left of the video picture,

11     Mr. Besic, the date 6.2.1994, which was the day after the incident; is

12     that correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Could you describe what you saw in that portion of the video?

15        A.   At this place you can see the centre of impact.  You can see the

16     traces of damage on the asphalt surface, and the chalk marks the damaged

17     parts.  The chalk was put by the -- there by the experts who were doing

18     the investigation at the scene.  That is that ballistics part of the

19     investigation.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could move now, please, to 22 minutes and 20

21     seconds.  If we could just play please from there.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop there, please, at 22 minutes and 28 seconds.

24        Q.   Do you happen to know what those markings on the ground refer to,

25     Mr. Besic?

Page 9417

 1        A.   I'm not an expert in that field, I wasn't there at the time, but

 2     the arrow indicates the direction of the north, 18 degrees.  I don't know

 3     if that is the angle of impact or 18 degrees to the north-east.  I cannot

 4     be sure but the arrow indicates the direction of the north and this

 5     degree, 18 degrees probably indicates the direction from where the

 6     projectile came.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we now play 26 minutes and 32 seconds to 26

 8     minutes and 54 seconds.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. GAYNOR:

11        Q.   Could you describe what you saw in that portion, Mr. Besic?

12        A.   Again, this is the centre of impact of the explosion of the

13     mortar projectile, and this was filmed by my colleague Suad Dzumisic, so

14     this is a close-up and then probably from the roof of the building or

15     from the building itself, there was another shot made of the wider area

16     of impact.

17        Q.   And on the basis of those observations and on the basis of your

18     experience in other investigations, does it appear to you that the projectile

19     detonated upon impact with a roofing unit or upon impact with the ground?

20        A.   It's a fact that it came into contact with the asphalt surface,

21     you can see damage on the asphalt surface.  Had the contact been on the

22     roof above this, the damage caused by the projectile, the centre, the

23     stabiliser, would not be here.  This location is therefore the very

24     centre of impact of the mortar projectile.

25        Q.   We are going to move now to the subject of photographs.  Is it

Page 9418

 1     correct that you compiled a file of photo documentation relating to the

 2     Markale I incident?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I call up Exhibit P1709, please.

 5        Q.   Is this the -- on the left-hand part of the screen in front of

 6     you, is that the first page of the file of photo documentation which you

 7     prepared relating to the Markale I incident?

 8        A.   Yes, that is the document.

 9        Q.   Now, I think it's fair to say, Mr. Besic, that this photo file is

10     divided into three parts.  The first part contains photographs of the

11     incident location, the second part contains photographs of the stabiliser

12     and of shrapnel, and the third part contains photographs of bodies of the

13     deceased in a morgue; is that correct?

14        A.   That is correct.

15        Q.   Could you briefly clarify which parts of those you personally

16     took photographs of?

17        A.   I photographed the first photographs the way you divided them

18     into three groups, I photograph the first group, the actual location.

19     The second part was done by Suad Dzumisic in the lab, and he also did the

20     photographs with the scale.  The third photograph was done by Miralem

21     Sarvan of the victims, and this was done in the morgue.  This is a team.

22     In view of the circumstances in which the whole event occurred, there

23     were many wounded, so one team was at the location, one was working at

24     the Kosevo hospital, and so on and so forth.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we move, please, to page 8 of the photo file,

Page 9419

 1     and could we blow up the photograph just so it's visible, and the text,

 2     to include the text below it.

 3        Q.   Could you briefly tell the Court what this photograph depicts?

 4        A.   As the caption says, it's the place of impact of the mortar

 5     projectile photographed after it was cleared from tissue and various

 6     items.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could go now, please, to page 12.  This is

 8     photograph number 11 of the documentation file.

 9        Q.   And just briefly describe what this photo shows?

10        A.   It shows again the centre of the explosion, and the caption says

11     "after clearing of the debris in the place of impact of the mortar

12     projectile, the stabiliser was found of a mortar projectile calibre 120

13     millimetres."

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I ask the Registrar, please, to bring up page

15     4 of 65 ter 09620A.

16        Q.   While that's coming, Mr. Besic, is it correct that yesterday you

17     provided to me photographs which are essentially print-outs of the

18     originals which you used to create this photo documentation file?

19        A.   Yes.  I brought it with me because we have saved the films.  We

20     have a video library of all the events filmed during the war and at any

21     time we can make a still.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  If I could ask the Registrar just to zoom in really

23     on the centre of the photograph that Mr. Besic provided to us which is on

24     the right.  If I could just tell Your Honours that as you can see, the

25     quality of the photographs Mr. Besic has provided, they are the same

Page 9420

 1     photographs, but we now have better quality images, so my suggestion, my

 2     submission is to upload those photographs which we've received and to

 3     associate them with this exhibit number so that Your Honours can inspect

 4     them, if you wish.  The Defence have received copies of them.  They are

 5     exactly the same photographs.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Is there any objection from the Defence?  That will

 7     be done, Mr. Gaynor.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.  We'll see to that.  Thank you,

 9     Mr. President.

10             If we could move on to the next photograph, please, in the photo

11     file, which is photograph 12 on page 13.  We can now close the other

12     file.

13        Q.   Just briefly tell us what this is, Mr. Besic.

14        A.   This is the tail-fin of the mortar projectile photographed after

15     it was brought to the crime lab and photographed in black and white.  You

16     see a ruler on one side with dividers at intervals of 1 centimetres.

17     This is always done with a photograph to determine the size.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we go to the next photograph, please.

19        Q.   What does this depict?

20        A.   It's the same projectile photographed from a different angle

21     where you see the fuse itself and the markings on the fuse.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I now ask the Registrar to produce 65 ter

23     10457, please.  This is the artifact, Mr. Registrar, you have in your

24     custody.  We can now show it to the witness, thank you.

25        Q.   Mr. Besic, are you in a position to identify that object?

Page 9421

 1        A.   Yes, that's the object.

 2        Q.   Could --

 3        A.   There was another band here with a marking that we make for our

 4     filing purposes, but it's missing here, but that's the object.

 5        Q.   So just to clarify the record, is that the stabiliser from the

 6     Markale I incident?

 7        A.   Yes, that's the stabiliser.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Besic.  We are now going to move to the Markale II

 9     incident.  Now, you participated in that investigation --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, sorry to interrupt you, but just for

11     planning purpose, irrespective of our belated start, we are minded to

12     take a break at 12.40.  We'll have a break for half an hour, so you have

13     ten minutes.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  Thank you, Mr. President.  And I forgot,

15     can I tender in evidence the Markale I stabiliser.  This has already been

16     admitted in evidence as part of the record in the Galic trial.  I

17     understand that the procedure here is that the same artifacts cannot be

18     entered into evidence in two different trials, so I understand that we

19     have to tender into evidence a photograph of the artifact.  That's my

20     understanding of the procedure.  I'm open to correction.

21             JUDGE KWON:  It's due to some administrative matters, reasons.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I mean the Galic trial is completely finished,

23     but I understand it still remains part of the evidentiary record in that

24     trial.  Certainly if it could be admitted in evidence in this trial.

25             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case, unless there's an objection

Page 9422

 1     we'll do so.  We'll give this a number for...

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1967, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Photographs representing the real stabiliser.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  That's correct, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  But it's always possible to see the real artifact.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, it will be in the custody the Registrar at all

 7     times.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:

10        Q.   Now, Mr. Besic, could you briefly describe your duties in the

11     investigation of the Markale II incident?

12        A.   Well, when that incident happened, the work of a scenes-of-crime

13     officer consists of photographing the scene as found, video recording,

14     photograph documentation, and collecting all the evidence that could be

15     helpful in the investigation.  In this case, a team was formed.  We came

16     out to the scene and we carried out that part of the work.  As you can

17     see from everything attached.  If we hadn't done that job, there would be

18     no photo documentation, there would be no sketch, there would be no

19     projectile.  At the end of the day, that's the point of police work.

20        Q.   Is it correct that you personally took photographs of the

21     location of the Markale II incident on the day of the incident?

22        A.   Yes, I did that and my colleague did the video recording.  I made

23     photographs and my colleague filmed.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I ask for 65 ter 09533, please.

25        Q.   To your right, Mr. Besic, you see a large whiteboard containing a

Page 9423

 1     composite of several photographs.  Could you describe for the court what

 2     that depicts?

 3        A.   This photograph was taken from the second floor of the building

 4     opposite Markale Market.  It was a so-called panorama shot combined from

 5     four photographs.  You see a lot of blood-stains, a lot of debris.  You

 6     also see the centre of explosion of the mortar shell.

 7        Q.   Who took these photographs?

 8        A.   I did and I combined them to obtain this panoramic shot.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I tender that in evidence, please,

10     Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit P1968, Your Honours.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  I'm now going to play two different videos relating

14     to this incident, and I'm going to begin with 65 ter 40102, please.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             MR. GAYNOR:

17        Q.   We stopped at 1 minute and 23 seconds.  Mr. Besic, could you

18     describe in general terms what that portion of the video shows?

19        A.   We saw a horrifying incident.  You could see how many people fell

20     victim, people were running to each other's aid.  What can you say.

21        Q.   Could you specify which incident that was?

22        A.   That's the Markale II incident in Mustafe Baseskije Street, it is

23     the northern entrance and exit to Markale.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could play now from 1 minute and 23 just to 1

25     minute and 26, just three seconds, please.

Page 9424

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. GAYNOR:

 3        Q.   Do you see in that clip a man moving a bicycle, Mr. Besic?  We'll

 4     play it for you again if you wish.

 5        A.   Yes.  That man is probably moving his bicycle to be able to

 6     extract a body because everyone is trying to help other people here.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we play on, please, to 3 minutes and 20

 8     seconds.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MR. GAYNOR:  We can stop there, please.

11        Q.   In that --

12             MR. GAYNOR:  We stopped at 3 minutes and 25 seconds.

13        Q.   In that extract, Mr. Besic, you observed bodies of the deceased

14     and injured being placed in vehicles; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Can you describe for the Court what kinds of vehicles were

17     usually used to take away the injured and the deceased from shelling

18     incidents on the basis of your experience?

19        A.   As we were all able to see, there's a Volkswagon Golf, there is a

20     Jugo car produced locally.  Cars of the newspaper in town.

21        Q.   Was it the standard practice to leave the bodies of the deceased

22     at an incident location or was it standard practice otherwise?  By

23     standard practice, I should say, the general situation in shelling

24     incidents in Sarajevo?

25        A.   Well, wherever there were a large number of casualties, the first

Page 9425

 1     priority was to give assistance to people as soon as possible, to

 2     transfer them to the Kosevo hospital where they were met by doctors who

 3     did the triage, who sent those who were already dead on arrival to the

 4     mortuary, and helped the others.  That was the standard practice in war

 5     time.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.  We can take a break now, if you wish,

 7     Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll take a break, about half an hour.  We

 9     will resume at quarter past 1.00.

10                           --- Recess taken at 12.42 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.56 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I apologise yet again for the delay.  There was some

13     miscommunication amongst the Judges.

14             So let's continue, Mr. Gaynor.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

16             Could we play the remaining 35 seconds of the video that we were

17     watching before the break.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just for purposes of planning, we'll sit until five

19     to 3.00.

20             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MR. GAYNOR:

23        Q.   I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about that portion,

24     Mr. Besic.

25             First of all, I think we saw, at one point, a soldier in that,

Page 9426

 1     and later on I'll show a video showing a couple of other soldiers.  Did

 2     you personally go to the Markale Market very often in 1994 and 1995?

 3        A.   Yes.  A large number of people frequented Markale, without any

 4     distinction, in civilian, in military uniform.  It was just a place for

 5     trading all sorts of goods.  There were people in uniform as well as

 6     others.

 7        Q.   Could you explain to the Court, on the basis of your

 8     observations, whether Markale Market was primarily frequented by

 9     civilians or primarily frequented by military personnel?

10        A.   Well, it was intended for civilians.  But in view of the

11     situation in which the city was then, it was frequented by everyone,

12     including people in uniform, and many people wore uniform.  It was

13     normally intended for civilians, but in those times people were wearing

14     all sorts of things, whatever they could lay their hands on.

15             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to tender that video into evidence,

16     Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  The whole of it?

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, all of it.  We've played all of it.  The final

19     portion we've played was from 3 minutes and 25 until 4 minutes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P1969, Your Honours.

22             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to move to a video which has already

23     been admitted in evidence as P1450, and I'll be playing some extracts

24     from that.  Initially, I'd like to play the first minute of this video,

25     please.

Page 9427

 1                           [Video-clip played]

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  We've stopped at 48 seconds.

 3        Q.   Mr. Besic, it's been repeatedly asserted in this court that many

 4     of the bodies at the Markale I and Markale II incidents were brought from

 5     the front-line, that the bodies were already dead.  I want to ask you if

 6     you can comment on that assertion.

 7        A.   It's difficult to comment.  We can see, with our own eyes,

 8     everything that happened.  All sorts of stories circulated, that bodies

 9     were brought there and planted there.  However, we've seen what's going

10     on.  If dead bodies had been brought here, then the wounded people here

11     would not be acting this way.  You see the man without his lower leg.  If

12     you look at the other photographs and recordings, you will see parts of

13     extremities.  There were all sorts of stories and guesses, but the facts

14     are here.

15        Q.   Do you personally have any experience with the exchange of bodies

16     which have been dead for some time?

17        A.   Yes.  We frequently worked in the mortuary of the

18     Kosevo Hospital.  All bodies received from exchanges had to be examined

19     by the police, the police had to describe their condition, and those

20     bodies received from exchanges and these bodies here are very, very

21     different.

22        Q.   Explain, briefly, in what way they are very, very different.

23        A.   If we look at the photographs of the bodies in mortuaries, bodies

24     brought from Markale I and Markale II, you will see that those are fresh

25     bodies that have no soil on them, their skin is not puckered up, whereas

Page 9428

 1     the bodies received from exchanges are received in very bad condition,

 2     the skin puckered up, a lot of mud and soil on them, they are in sacks,

 3     and so on.

 4        Q.   Could you explain approximately when you personally participated

 5     in the exchange of dead bodies?

 6        A.   Well, the job of the police, with all the bodies received from

 7     exchanges at the Kosevo Hospital, was to send a team.  Usually, my

 8     colleagues and I went.  We would photograph, make records and

 9     documentation, and within a certain time the bodies had to be identified.

10     That was done in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, through to the end.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to ask now if we can play from 1 minute and

12     30 seconds to 1 minute and 50 seconds.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop there, please.

15             We're at 1 minute and 51 seconds.

16        Q.   Could you explain what building that is we see on the screen?

17        A.   This entrance/exit on the north side to Markale, formerly

18     Marsal Tita Street, now called Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.

19        Q.   Now, simply to clarify and to orient the Court here, could you

20     explain, where you say "that's the north side," that's the north side of

21     what building, exactly?

22        A.   Well, that's the northern side of Markale, the entry/exit into

23     Markale, and there is another southern entrance from Vase Miskina Street.

24     That's the main entrance.  This is one of the other entrances from

25     Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street.  There are another two side entrances, but

Page 9429

 1     they are not used.

 2        Q.   The impact location for the Markale I incident, how far away was

 3     it from the impact location for the Markale II incident?

 4        A.   Well, it's a distance of 100, 150 metres, not more, in the same

 5     street, Mula Mustafe Baseskije.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just for clarification, the entrance that we are

 8     seeing is the entrance that is in that panoramic view, Mr. Besic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             MR. GAYNOR:

12        Q.   In respect of the picture on the screen in front of you,

13     approximately where -- how far from the door was the impact location?

14        A.   Looking from this angle, the point of impact is on the right-hand

15     side some 4 to 5 metres away.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we play on now, please.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop there, please.

19        Q.   Now, could you describe what we're seeing in this picture here?

20        A.   Yes.  Here we see one body in uniform.  They are commenting that

21     he is a soldier, he is probably a soldier who came there to buy

22     something, or he was passing by and he got hit.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  That was at 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

24        Q.   Did you at any stage encounter any information to suggest that

25     any soldiers had been placed at the site?

Page 9430

 1        A.   In that part of town around the market, there is no single

 2     location holding members of the armed forces.  At least I'm not aware of

 3     any such location.  Further away, there is the army hall, but it's some

 4     500 metres away.  And in this neighbourhood around Markale I and

 5     Markale II, there is no location holding BH Army members.

 6        Q.   Did you encounter any information to suggest that any corpses of

 7     soldiers had been placed at this location?

 8        A.   No.  No, I'm not aware of that.

 9             MR. GAYNOR:  Can we play on now until 3 minutes and 7 seconds.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. GAYNOR:  If we could stop there, please.

12        Q.   Could you confirm what door that is?  That's at 3 minutes and 7

13     seconds.

14        A.   Entrance/exit on the north side from the Mula Mustafe Baseskije

15     Street.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like now to skip to 3 minutes and 40 seconds and

17     play for 20 seconds, please.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             MR. GAYNOR:  And stop, please.  We stopped at 4 minutes and 2

20     seconds.

21        Q.   Could you describe what we saw in that extract?

22        A.   This is the situation as found when we came.  There are members

23     of the UN as well.  Most of the location has already been cleared from

24     people and from the wounded, and the place has already been secured by

25     the police.  And we proceeded to work to determine the facts of this

Page 9431

 1     incident.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Could you play on for 30 seconds, please.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop there, please.  Stopped at 4 minutes and 35

 5     seconds.

 6        Q.   Can you describe your understanding of what was going on in that

 7     clip?

 8        A.   On this picture, we see that UN members are measuring the

 9     distance from the center of the explosion to the northern wall of the

10     Markale Market, just close to the entrance.  The white chalk marks the

11     damage at the center of the explosion and damage incurred by shrapnel.

12             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to move now to 6 minutes and 45 seconds.

13     If we can play from there until the end.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.

16        Q.   What did you understand to be taking place in that final clip?

17        A.   This is a list of the casualties in Kosevo Hospital.  And this

18     woman speaking was saying where each injured person was, most of them

19     being in the Orthopaedics Department, which indicates that there were

20     many injuries to the extremities in this incident.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, that ends the Markale II portion.  I simply wish

22     to clarify the photographs which you gave me yesterday.

23             Is it correct that you gave me photographs relating to photo

24     files from the Markale I incident, the Markale II incident, and the

25     incident which took place in Dobrinja on the 4th of February, 1994?

Page 9432

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, the photographs we've received from

 3     Mr. Besic are some -- are most, but not all, of the photographs in those

 4     photo files relating to those three incidents, which have already been

 5     admitted in evidence, and we have up-loaded the photographs that we have.

 6     So I would just like to read into the record the 65 ter numbers

 7     pertaining to the higher-quality images which have been up-loaded into

 8     e-court.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             MR. GAYNOR:  In respect of P1709, which is the photo file for

11     Markale I, the images received from Mr. Besic are at 65 ter 09620A.  In

12     respect of P1926, which is the photo file relating to Markale II, the

13     photos received from Mr. Besic are at 65 ter 09900A.  Finally, in respect

14     of P1707, which is the photo documentation file relating to the Dobrinja

15     incident, which is Incident G-7, the photographs received from Mr. Besic

16     are at 65 ter 09624A.

17             I'd like to deal now with the associated -- I'd like to tender

18     those in evidence, and I'd also like to deal with the outstanding

19     associated exhibits, Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  What do you mean by "tendering"?  Do you like to

21     replace the current pictures?

22             MR. GAYNOR:  No, no.  The current pictures are in there.  They

23     are the official photo documentation files.  These are simply

24     high-resolution images of the same photographs, substantially.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So 9620A, 9900A, 9624A?

Page 9433

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, those three 65 ter numbers.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  They will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             65 ter 09620A will be P1970.  65 ter 09900A will be P1971.  And

 5     65 ter 09624A will be P1972.  Thank you.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Now, in respect of the balance of the associated

 7     exhibits, we pointed out, on the filing which we submitted for Mr. Besic

 8     on the 22nd October, I think it was, the exhibit numbers of those

 9     associated exhibits which have been admitted, and there are two further

10     associated exhibits which have since been admitted since we made our

11     filing.  So I can weed out the ones which have not yet been admitted, or

12     as Your Honours wish.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's do that.

14             MR. GAYNOR:  The ones -- the associated exhibits which have not

15     yet been admitted are 09 -- 65 ter 09619, 10457, 10228, 09899, 10226 and

16     09910.  So I would tender those to be admitted as associated exhibits.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We dealt with 10457 already.  That's the real one?

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  That's correct.  Yes,

19     thank you.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The Registry will assign

21     exhibit numbers in due course.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             What about 9910?  Oh, yes, you mentioned it at the end.  I think

24     that's consistent with what I have.  Thank you.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 9434

 1             That ends the direct examination.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

 3             Mr. Besic, you'll further be asked by Mr. Karadzic.

 4             Mr. Karadzic, let's begin your cross-examination.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Good afternoon to everyone.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Besic, good afternoon.

10        A.   Good afternoon.

11        Q.   I would just briefly like to throw some light on the following.

12     You started to work at the police in 1975?

13        A.   Yes, the 1st of March, 1975, and I have been working as a crime

14     technician from 1987.

15        Q.   Although we need to make a break --

16             JUDGE KWON:  That's what I wanted to say.

17             Mr. Besic, because the question and answers should be interpreted

18     into English, another official language of the United Nations -- of the

19     Tribunal, so I would like you to put a pause between the question and

20     answer.  Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22        Q.   The 12 years that you worked there, what was the type of work

23     that you were doing?

24        A.   I continued to work at the police, but I worked in the

25     Technical Service.

Page 9435

 1        Q.   Thank you.  When you became a crime technician and started to

 2     work in that branch, you processed crime scenes, was this homicide or

 3     something else?

 4        A.   When I began to work in this field, I had to complete a six-month

 5     course first, which I completed.  And then in 1988, I began to work

 6     actively on on-site investigations, and these were usually homicides,

 7     robberies, burglaries, traffic accidents, other types of crimes and

 8     incidents.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And how many homicides did you investigate before the

10     war broke out?  Before Markale, let's say.  Before the war broke out,

11     let's say.

12        A.   During the four years, I conducted investigations into four

13     homicides.  There were very few cases at that time of homicide.  And this

14     required a more serious investigation, a more specific one.

15        Q.   Thank you.  All of this was conducted as part of the

16     investigation which was then done for a case which was brought to trial

17     pursuant to provisions of the criminal law; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And in that sense, there were certain rules about the way the

20     scene should be processed; is that right?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Let us now go back to Markale I.

23             You took part in the on-scene investigation.  Can you please tell

24     us when you arrived at the market after the Markale I incident?  When did

25     you arrive at the market, and who came with you?

Page 9436

 1        A.   After the Markale I incident, after receiving information, in

 2     some 10 minutes the investigation team was formed, comprising the

 3     investigative judge, the technician, the policemen, and in some 15 or 14

 4     minutes, we were there.  By the time we got there, the scene was secured

 5     by policemen from the Stari Grad Police Station.

 6        Q.   When you say "secured," what does that mean?  What does it mean,

 7     to secure the scene?

 8        A.   That means that the scene is secured from people entering and

 9     altering the scene in any way, the existing scene.  This is something

10     that was done by policemen from the Police Administration in Stari Grad.

11     They did not allow any passersby or any civilians to enter the scene.

12        Q.   Am I right when I say that the incident occurred at 1220 hours,

13     that the explosion occurred at 1220 hours?

14             Let me help you.  Let's look at 65 ter 09634, 09634.  In the

15     Serbian, this is page 5, and in the English, maybe it's page 4.

16             In the first paragraph, we can see that the notification arrived

17     at 1320 hours; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, that is what it says in the report, that the notification

19     arrived at 1320 hours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can we now look at the report from the investigation.  This is

22     9622, 65 ter 9622.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is this the report from the investigation, which states that from

25     1320 to 1600 hours, a criminal/technical examination of the site was

Page 9437

 1     conducted; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.  I think five minutes is the time -- is off here.  The

 3     investigation began at 1330 hours, and it was completed at 1600 hours.

 4     In one place, also, it says that the explosion occurred at 1300 hours.

 5     So there is a little bit of a time difference here amounting to some five

 6     to ten minutes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You managed, in 10 minutes, to put together a team

 8     and to come to the scene of the incident; is that correct?

 9        A.   No.  Actually, the team was formed and came to the scene in a

10     period of 40 minutes.

11        Q.   Can you look at the last sentence of the first paragraph:

12             "The projectile dropped around 1220 hours."

13             You were informed at 1320 hours, and at 1330 you were already at

14     the scene; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   Isn't it a little bit unusual that you are informed about it a

17     whole hour after the projectile dropped?

18        A.   We received the notification -- the Communication Centre was

19     notified by radio that there was a projectile that landed, that a lot of

20     people were wounded.  A team is formed along the command -- chain of

21     command, and a judge is appointed, and the team goes to the scene.  In

22     view of the type of incident that occurred, it's possible that there are

23     some errors in this.

24        Q.   In the previous document, it states that the notification arrived

25     at 1320 hours, and then that you were at the scene already at 1330 hours.

Page 9438

 1     And it's not in dispute in any of the documents that the explosion,

 2     itself, occurred at 1220 hours.  What happened during that hour before

 3     you were informed?

 4        A.   Since we are not all in one building, the prosecutors are in one

 5     building, the judges are in another, the police is in another location,

 6     we needed time to form the team, the duty prosecutor, duty investigating

 7     judge, operative workers, and that is exactly that amount of 40 minutes

 8     or so that we needed in order to form a team.  Also, if the location

 9     is -- actually, in this case the location is some 500 to 700 metres away

10     from where the police were.

11        Q.   Yes, but I don't see those 40 minutes.  I see that the shell fell

12     at 1220, that the information reached you at 1320, and that very quickly

13     you came to the scene.  It seems that you did not waste that much time.

14     Someone else wasted an hour.  And are you able, then, to tell us what

15     happened to this time, what happened in that hour?

16        A.   No, I'm not able to tell you that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you take with you a photographer or a person who

18     made the video-recording?

19        A.   Yes.  He's an integral part of the team.  There is a crime

20     technician that is in the team, a person who is a videographer, and other

21     members of the team.

22        Q.   Thank you.  How many videographers did you take?

23        A.   Just one, Suad --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the last name.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 9439

 1        Q.   Did you have any other people who were video-recording at the

 2     scene?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell the name of the gentleman who took

 4     the video?  The first name is Suad, and the interpreter couldn't hear his

 5     last name.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no.  I mixed up Markale I

 7     and Markale II.  It was Zlatan Sadikovic who was the one who was

 8     recording at Markale I.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   For the transcript, can you spell the last name, Sadikovic,

11     because the last name is not recorded correctly in the transcript.

12     I think I spelled it -- did I spell the name correctly, this Sadikovic?

13             Mr. Besic, I need your confirmation.  Did I spell it correctly?

14     Is the last name spelled correctly in the transcript now?

15        A.   Yes, Zlatan Sadikovic.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And did Sadikovic, Zlatan, come with you, and was he

17     a part of your official team, an official photographer?

18        A.   Yes, he was part of the team.  At that time, he was working at

19     the CSB, and he was working on developing films in our film lab.  And he

20     also was in charge of the video camera, and he would be present at

21     certain on-site investigations to help us.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And did you take him with you?

23        A.   Yes, he was a part of the team.

24        Q.   When you came to Markale, was the evacuation of those wounded and

25     killed already completed?

Page 9440

 1        A.   Yes, the scene was already free.  All the wounded and the corpses

 2     had been taken away.  There were no bodies.  Only the extremities were

 3     left, tissue and blood.

 4        Q.   So this is what this hour was spent on; is that correct?

 5        A.   Well, probably at the point of impact and explosion, you could

 6     see from the video footage the people going in and out of the scene, the

 7     kind of chaos, the vehicles coming -- arriving to take people away for

 8     treatment, so I don't know whether this was something that took 40

 9     minutes or an hour.

10        Q.   As a crime technician, did you have any problems with the fact

11     that you were summoned only after the bodies were removed and the scene

12     altered in a way that was not permissible under the law?

13        A.   No, we didn't really pay much attention to that.  There was a

14     large number of people and corpses.  People needed treatment.  This is

15     not something that accords with the correct procedure according to the

16     law, but this is a humanitarian act, a humanitarian issue, so I believe

17     that that was how they should have done it.  According to the law, the

18     corpse should be left at the scene, if it's one corpse or two, but this

19     is something that can be applied in peacetime.  In wartime, the

20     propositions change.

21        Q.   Am I to understand that the wounded were supposed to be taken

22     care of immediately, but the dead should have stayed on the scene for

23     purposes of crime scene investigation?

24        A.   Yes, in peacetime.  But in wartime, humane considerations come

25     first.  This was something like a force majeure.  Plus when something

Page 9441

 1     like that happens, there is no police on the spot.  People need to be

 2     taken care of.  People are more important.

 3        Q.   Do you know who was the first to come to the aid of the wounded

 4     and the dead at Markale I?

 5        A.   I was not at the scene, nor could I have been at the scene.  Like

 6     everyone else, I saw it all from the videos and on television.  I saw the

 7     people who came to help, people who were on the market, who happened to

 8     be on the market and were not injured.  The same people who were on the

 9     market already came to the aid of others, those who were lucky enough not

10     to be injured themselves.

11        Q.   Is it true that this work was mostly done by the soldiers and the

12     policemen who were there?

13        A.   In my previous evidence, I said that it was a market open to

14     everyone.  It is not strictly for civilians or strictly for the army.

15     Everyone frequents that market.  As for the police, policemen are often

16     present to prevent theft and such.  And those members of the army who

17     were there were probably off duty and came to the market to get

18     cigarettes and swap goods, cigarettes for flour, or oil, or something.

19        Q.   Can you tell us the number of injured?

20        A.   It's difficult to say after all this time.  The first figures

21     were something like 60 people, but it turned out that there were 35, 40

22     in the mortuary, and the bodies -- and the injured [as interpreted]

23     buried in numbers.  I cannot say whether it's 58 or 60.

24        Q.   And how many wounded; 200 something?

25        A.   Approximately.  Whether it's a little more or a little less, I

Page 9442

 1     did not find out.

 2        Q.   And they were being aided by those who happened to be on the

 3     market and who were lucky enough, as you said, not to be wounded or

 4     killed?

 5        A.   Many people ran to them, perhaps out of curiosity, wishing to

 6     help.  People who were passing by ran to the market after it happened.

 7        Q.   But, in any case, there were many of those who were not hurt by

 8     shrapnel?

 9        A.   Yes, a certain number.

10        Q.   Are we then to conclude that there were between 400 and 500

11     people at the market?

12        A.   Yes, it's likely that there were many people there at that time.

13     It's a very large surface.  It's possible that there were 400, 500

14     people.  The market can hold a thousand, perhaps.  Yes, I would agree

15     with 400, 500.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I asked, but never got the answer.  Was there more

17     than one cameraman?

18        A.   As far as the police is concerned, there was just one cameraman,

19     Zlatan Sadikovic, and no one else.  If there was anyone else filming,

20     they could only have filmed from a distance.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now play 65 ter 40125.  It's

22     an exhibit already, P1711, from 1 minute 05 to 1 minute 17, and later

23     from 5 minutes 03 to 5 minutes 11.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Tell us, what kind of goods were available at Markale attractive

Page 9443

 1     enough to draw 500 people?

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As you can see, there's a large

 4     variety of items, clothing, and everything else.  If you think it was

 5     just a green market, selling fruits and vegetables, that's very far from

 6     reality.  Each stall had something different.  If you take the number of

 7     sellers and the number of people who came to trade and swap things, it

 8     could have easily been more than 500.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you agree that we see on this footage that only one-fifth of

11     the stalls, perhaps, hold something, and even that is very insignificant?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Play back to the previous image.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   What could have possibly drawn 500 people to a market like this?

15        A.   What we see on the stalls now is the narrow circle of the

16     explosion.  The area to the side was not devastated, and the sellers who

17     were there had probably picked up their goods in a hurry and left.

18     That's why the stalls are empty.

19        Q.   Do you think the goods were collected and taken away before the

20     wounded and the dead were helped?

21        A.   Various people and passersby were helping the injured, and the

22     sellers probably picked up their property and ran from the scene.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, we'll see a

24     different film recording the evacuation, showing the market as empty as

25     it looks on this image.

Page 9444

 1             Can we see 503 to 511?  Oh, sorry, this is it.  This has already

 2     been exhibited.  Thank you.

 3             Could we now look at 65 ter 09513.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you make this sketch of this incident?  09513.

 6             Did you, Mr. Besic, make the sketch of the Markale I incident?

 7        A.   I can't say with any certainty that I worked on this one.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Can you switch into e-court from Sanction.  Yes.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   We see that sketch here.  Is this a drawing of the Markale

11     Market, showing the dimensions of the main surface?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In this layout of stalls, can you mark where the stalls actually

14     holding any goods were?

15        A.   I couldn't do that.  I don't know how to mark, and more or less

16     every stall or every other stall was occupied by a seller, by a vendor.

17     I really cannot say.  This shows the total number of stalls at the

18     market.  But how many goods there were, I can't say.

19        Q.   And can you mark the place of the incident?  This, towards the

20     bottom of the picture, is Mula Mustafe Baseskije Street?

21        A.   Yes, that's where the train line goes, and this is the place of

22     the incident.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now tell us, where were these 300 people hurt

24     by shrapnel scattered?

25        A.   I can try, but the shrapnel is shrapnel.  Shrapnel does not stay

Page 9445

 1     in the center of the explosion; it travels.  It can hurt you at 50 metres

 2     distance.  Most of the injured were in this area.

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I don't believe Mr. Karadzic has elicited evidence

 6     that 300 people were hurt by shrapnel.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Can you give us the reference?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if 67 were dead and over 200

 9     were injured, the figure comes close to 300.  It's official information.

10     That is the score of Markale I.

11             Let us now look at G-8, 5th February.  Sixty-six dead and over

12     140 injured, but some reports refer to over 200 injured and 68 dead from

13     a mortar shell.  This 120-millimetre shell killed 66 and killed at least

14     140.  And according to other reports, there were 180 to 190 injured.

15     That's the G-8 schedule.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, did you mean the number or the way they

17     were hurt?

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I understood the question to refer to the

19     number of persons injured by shrapnel, and I didn't -- I thought that was

20     around 200.  Now he's adding 200 to those who died to get 268.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So on that basis, we can carry on.

22             What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

23             Do you remember the question or shall I ask the accused to repeat

24     his question, Mr. Besic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I remember the question.

Page 9446

 1             I put a circle around an area that was very busy.  Whether there

 2     were 200 or 260, it's hard to say.  These were the first reports that

 3     were necessarily very terse.  It was difficult to estimate the number of

 4     people injured.  In the mortuary, we had at that time 35 to 40 bodies.

 5     The number of the injured, as reported, increased all the time.  It's

 6     difficult to give precise figures.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Well, the indictment is rather precise, and I'm now wondering

 9     about a couple of things.

10             First of all, what were 500 people doing in an empty market?

11     Second, taking into account all these stalls, where did they fit?  Three,

12     how did shrapnel reach so many people, with all these obstacles and

13     stalls and bodies, because one body covers another?  Can you, as a

14     scenes-of-crime officer, explain --

15             JUDGE KWON:  You're not making a speech now.  Ask questions one

16     by one.

17             What was your question?

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   My question was:  What were 500 people doing in an empty market?

20     My other question is:  Where were these people standing who were hurt by

21     shrapnel?

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  Let the witness answer each question in turn,

23     Dr. Karadzic.  It doesn't help anybody to ask compound questions.

24             Your first question that you were asked if you could answer it

25     was:  What were 500 people doing in what was said to have been an empty

Page 9447

 1     market?  Can you help us on that, Mr. Witness?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we cannot assert with

 3     certainty that all the stalls were empty.  That's one.

 4             People came out of curiosity, sometimes looking for just one

 5     thing.  Whether they will find stalls full or bare, they don't know in

 6     advance.  They came to the market to see what there was.  I can't tell

 7     you what they were doing at the market.

 8             The second question, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Well, you are a scenes-of-crime officer and you know about these

11     things.  Taking into account all these stalls and all these obstacles,

12     where did these 200 - some reports say 300 - people fit when they were

13     hurt by shrapnel, mortally or otherwise?  Where could they have possibly

14     stood in this area to be reached by shrapnel?

15        A.   Well, the dead were probably close to the center of the

16     explosion.  And those injured were some 15 to 50 metres away, and, of

17     course, they could be hurt by shrapnel, because it penetrates through

18     tin, through plastic.  They can easily be injured in the upper arms, the

19     upper body.  A shell is an explosive device created to kill, to kill the

20     enemy.

21        Q.   Yes, but --

22        A.   What I just used, to create -- to kill the enemy, that was the

23     term we used in the JNA, when we served there, to kill enemy manpower.

24     It has nothing to do with actual hostility.

25        Q.   Yes, those were hostilities, and not anymore.  Now, who

Page 9448

 1     recorded -- who filmed before you came, before the evacuation was

 2     completed?

 3        A.   I can't tell you.  I was not there.  I don't know who could have

 4     possibly done it.  It could have been a wandering reporter.  There were

 5     many journalists and even foreign reporters roaming the town, hunting for

 6     news.  That was their job.  It was a scoop to be the first on the scene

 7     of some incident.

 8        Q.   Do you remember that at the time, Radio Hayat was already

 9     operating?

10        A.   Yes, Radio Hayat was operative.

11        Q.   There was a programme at this radio station where people could

12     call in live during the programme.  Are you aware of that?

13        A.   No, because the phone lines were not working.  Definitely, I can

14     really state that with certainty.  In 1994, the telephones were not

15     operating.  I don't know how they could have been calling in live to a

16     programme.  I really don't know that.

17        Q.   Well, let me draw your attention -- let me carefully -- have you

18     listened to this audio-recording that we're going to play?

19             We don't have a transcript, so we would kindly ask you to --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like the witness to put his signature on this

21     marked sketch and you tender it?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, please.  Yes, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Besic, would you kindly place the date and your initials on

25     this sketch?

Page 9449

 1        A.   [Marks]

 2        Q.   Number 1 is the center of the explosion.  Number 2 is the

 3     concentration of the killed and those wounded.

 4             And the last question for today:  This is a 40-second clip --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, we have to rise.  The Appeals Chamber will be

 6     here very soon, so we have to vacate as soon as possible.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  And, Your Honours, the exhibit number for the

 8     marked map will be Exhibit D891.  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             We'll adjourn for today.  We'll resume at 9.00 tomorrow morning.

11             In the meantime, Mr. Besic, you are not supposed to discuss about

12     your evidence with anybody else.

13             We'll rise.

14                           [The witness stands down]

15                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.57 p.m.,

16                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 9th day of

17                           December, 2010, at 9.00 a.m.