110217ED

Page 12065

1 that?

2 A. Yes. Half of the people were killed, half were arrested.

3 MR. GAYNOR: This is at the top of page 7 for the other

4 participants in the courtroom.

5 Q. Witness, you said that half of the people were killed and I want

6 you to describe what exactly you saw during that incident.

7 A. When we tried to make a breakthrough to the nearby forest and

8 head onwards to Visoko, fierce infantry fire was opened from the forest

9 and from the surrounding area at a group that was in a plum grove. Some

10 ten men were either shot dead or wounded. I was among the wounded.

11 I was wounded in the leg. Since there was no other way out for us, the

12 Chetniks surrounded us and those who were able to walk or were slightly

13 injured were taken to a nearby field. They told us to sit down on the

14 ground and to put our hands behind our heads. Next to me was a cousin of

15 mine who nodded his head towards me and said there were Bato Arnautovic

16 and Dragan Koprivica there. The two approached the dead and the

17 seriously wounded and shot them. I also noticed when they took out their

18 knives, they grabbed Jusuf Suljic, aka Juka, by the head and slit his

19 throat. Also they did the same to Nihad Tomo. One of the soldiers

20 shouted at us, "Bow your heads. Otherwise I'll kill you all." At that

21 moment, from the direction of the houses in Kalkan [phoen], an officer

22 appeared and came close. One of the soldiers, Stevo Petricevic --

23 Q. I'll stop you there, Witness, please. Witness, I'd like to ask

24 you a couple of questions about the description you've just given. In

25 the group of people who were shot at, you said some were dead already.

Page 12066

1 Can you give an estimate as to the number of men who were, in fact,

2 killed in that specific incident who were not already dead?

3 A. Around 15.

4 Q. Were any of those men, of those 15, armed at that moment?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Now, I'd like to move on to the arrival of Tintor, which you

7 describe in your statement and you describe it at paragraph 27 of your

8 statement. First of all, could you give me the full name of Joja Tintor?

9 A. Jovan Tintor. His nickname is Joja.

10 Q. In your statement at paragraph 23, you describe Tintor as the

11 commander of the enemy formation. And elsewhere you referred to him as

12 being in a position of command. What was it that you saw which led you

13 to believe that he was in command?

14 A. First and foremost, a relative of mine who led the group from the

15 village when they went to negotiate at the Butile barracks had

16 Jovan Tintor there, on the other side, as well as Nikola Stanisic and the

17 rest. That's what he told us about when he came back from the

18 negotiations.

19 The second thing I wish to point out is that when we were taken

20 prisoner, when Joja Tintor came to us, he introduced himself to us and he

21 asked whether there were any wounded persons there. And from his

22 military bag he took something out and gave us something to keep us warm.

23 He wore the summer uniform of the JNA. He had a pistol at the waist. He

24 had a military bag, and on his head, he wore a cap with a five-pointed

25 red star.

Page 12067

1 Q. And what was it your relative had told you, after coming back

2 from negotiations with Tintor, about Tintor's position?

3 A. He said that they had negotiated, that they had demanded that men

4 from the age of 15 to 70 surrender to the barracks and that they would

5 guarantee their safety and security. However, our leaders did not accept

6 that.

7 Q. Specifically focusing on the question of Tintor's position, what

8 did your relative tell you Tintor's position was?

9 A. Tintor commanded a paramilitary formation that, in my view,

10 consisted of about 2.000 men. When they arrived - how should I put

11 this? - it was as if they were ants.

12 Q. Just one final question: Was there anything else that Tintor

13 said or did that made you believe that he was in command of the

14 paramilitary formation?

15 A. Well, while we were sitting there, all these soldiers of his

16 addressed him as Commander Joja. How should I put it? Even before,

17 until Stevo Petricevic came there, he's a neighbour of mine, and he had a

18 radio transmitter on his back, as far as I can remember, it was an RUP 3,

19 a military radio. He addressed him as Commander Joja, what do we do

20 about this, what do we do about that? So he talked to him.

21 Q. I want to move now to the period that you were detained at the

22 cistern in Rajlovac.

23 MR. GAYNOR: Could I call up 65 ter 01428, please?

24 Q. Now, Witness, you're about to be shown a photograph. I'd be

25 grateful if you could tell the Court what the photograph depicts.

Page 12068

1 A. This depicts the compound where the company was, the fuel

2 company. There are two cisterns there, in which we were held prisoner.

3 The smaller one was a petrol cistern and there were about 90 prisoners

4 there, and the bigger one had been used for diesel fuel, and other

5 prisoners were held there.

6 Q. Very well. Thank you, Witness.

7 MR. GAYNOR: Could I ask that that be admitted.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] About 130.

9 MR. GAYNOR: That can be a public exhibit, Mr. President.

10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be Exhibit P2311.

11 MR. GAYNOR:

12 Q. Which of the two cisterns were you detained in, the smaller one

13 or the bigger one?

14 A. I was in the smaller one.

15 Q. Now, how many nights did you spend in that cistern, do you

16 recall?

17 A. 13 nights.

18 Q. Could you describe the surface of the cistern? By which I mean

19 the ground, essentially, of the cistern.

20 A. As for this cistern, they made a door there, like two by two

21 metres, and then they put a reinforced door there. There was a chain and

22 a padlock on the door. However, as they cut that opening for the door,

23 there was this 15-centimetre edge that they could not cut through, so

24 that was there by way of support. And that is where water accumulated

25 because it rained, and in -- therefore in the cistern itself, there was

Page 12069

1 always about 15 centimetres of water. In 1985, this has been -- this had

2 been abandoned, this entire terminal --

3 Q. Let me -- let me interrupt you, Witness, please.

4 A. -- however, you could still feel the smell of fuel, I mean the

5 odour, bad odour.

6 Q. How were you able to sleep in the cistern if there was

7 15 centimetres of water on the ground?

8 A. We didn't sleep at all. Whoever managed to tried to lean against

9 the metal wall. Some people would even fall asleep and then fall into

10 that water. That's the way it was, roughly. We were crowded into half

11 of that cistern.

12 Q. I'd like to take you to a person called Hajro Delic. He was

13 detained with you in the cistern; is that right?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Could you describe briefly what happened to him?

16 A. Well, as for Hajro Delic, a day after we were brought there, he

17 and his son and their neighbour had been captured. They told us about

18 those details, how they had been captured. However, some two days later,

19 Nikola Stanisic came with Sok and the members of his special unit, and

20 quite simply, they said that they needed to interrogate him about

21 something. They took him away that day and returned him only the next

22 morning. He was all black and blue. He had been beaten that badly. His

23 tongue was swollen as if it were a ball. He could barely say anything.

24 I knew him from before and his son was there as well. We tried to hold

25 him and he just managed to say that Nikola Stanisic had asked him for one

Page 12070

1 million marks in order to release him, and then he and these members of

2 the special unit beat him up. As far as I can remember, they had been

3 involved in conflicts even before the war.

4 Q. Did he survive his injuries?

5 A. This is what I wish to say: Just as he said that to me, a woman

6 walked into the cistern, she wore a white coat, and she examined him, and

7 she established at that point in time -- I mean, I noticed that he took a

8 deep sigh and he died. She examined him and gave him some kind of an

9 injection and realised that he was dead, established death.

10 Q. Thank you, Witness. I'm afraid I'm going to have to press on.

11 Could you describe very briefly what happened to Enver Celik?

12 A. Well, I don't know exactly which date it was, but this Sok,

13 Mile Stojanovic, these four members of the special unit, they had wooden

14 sticks, and there was this short man who came with them, as if he were a

15 child, and allegedly he pointed out Enver Celik and said that he had

16 mistreated his sister. They took him out and took him behind the

17 cistern. However, the cistern nearby was in such a position that those

18 other prisoners could see what had happened. They hanged him on this

19 construction where cisterns were filled with fuel. So they saw him

20 hanging by the arms from that construction, they hit him twice with

21 metal bars, and they broke his backbone in that way, so he never moved

22 afterwards.

23 Q. Witness, in your statement, this is at paragraph 44, you state

24 that on or around the 10th of June, Zuti came to your container and

25 called ten people out. And you go on to say that you --

Page 12071

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. They had never been heard of or seen again. Do you have any

3 information as to what became of those ten men?

4 A. These men were allegedly taken out for an exchange. As far as I

5 can remember, it was stated that they were taking them to Ilidza.

6 However, as far as I can remember, I never heard of them again. I mean,

7 I heard that they had been killed and some of them were found at Vlakovo,

8 in the city cemetery.

9 Q. I want to move now to the incident involving the bus. You state

10 in your statement that -- this is at paragraph 50 -- that Serbian police

11 Special Forces arrived armed to the teeth and ordered you to step out in

12 single file and to board the bus. What was it that made you believe that

13 they were Serbian police Special Forces?

14 A. When they came there to the cistern, they stood there in a line

15 of three or four metres. They had black masks on their faces, black and

16 white camouflage uniforms, with those anti-terrorist automatic weapons

17 and ordinary automatic weapons. They had grenades around their waists.

18 I mean, like real guerrillas. Then they ordered us to leave the cistern,

19 one by one, with our hands on our heads. We were supposed to run to the

20 bus. And after we board the bus, we were supposed to lie on the floor,

21 one upon the other, for our own safety, and then we would be taken for an

22 exchange to Kobilja Glava.

23 Q. I want to move on. You said that the driver of the bus was Zuti,

24 who had been a driver for Tintor. How do you know that he had been a

25 driver for Tintor?

Page 12072

1 A. Yes. When he came to the cistern to get those ten other people

2 that he previously took away for an exchange, allegedly, my neighbour

3 Alija Gacanovic was in the cistern too and he used to know him, and he

4 said that he was a member of the Special Forces of Vikic's army, who left

5 after the war started. So I heard that from him. And I saw him then as

6 well, when that van took them and I saw him at the steering wheel on --

7 in the bus.

8 Q. Now, Witness, very briefly, you said that the bus was accompanied

9 by four cars. Could you describe, very briefly, who you believe were in

10 those four vehicles?

11 A. In those vehicles -- well, they were escorting those who had come

12 to get us. I mean they were the ones who brought these vehicles in the

13 first place and the bus too.

14 Q. Who was in the vehicles?

15 A. These Special Forces members.

16 Q. Witness --

17 A. The ones that I could not see.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just one intervention, the

19 transcript does not reflect that the witness also said "probably."

20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Could you clarify that as well?

21 I wonder whether the witness has answered your previous question, what it

22 was that made him believe that they were Serbian police Special Forces.

23 Did he mean the police from Republic of Serbia?

24 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I'll clarify that, Mr. President.

25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

Page 12073

1 MR. GAYNOR:

2 Q. First of all, in your immediately previous question, Witness --

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. -- you said -- I asked you who were in the vehicles. Did you say

5 that they were Special Forces members or probably Special Forces members?

6 A. Well, judging by the way they were dressed, I considered them to

7 be Special Forces members, a Special Forces unit.

8 Q. Now, my next question is, in the English language, the term

9 "Serbian police Special Forces" is somewhat ambiguous. Could you clarify

10 whether you meant they were from Serbia or whether you meant they were

11 Serbs from Bosnia?

12 A. Well, I cannot say where they were from, but I know for sure that

13 they were not ordinary soldiers. I mean, it's like in the movies, when

14 you see those anti-terrorist forces. That's what they looked like, with

15 those socks over their faces.

16 Q. Very well. I'll continue. Witness, I want to take you now to

17 the moment when Zuti got off the bus to put some water into the cooler of

18 the engine. Could you just describe, and keep it fairly short, what you

19 were able to see or hear just when he -- when you -- when he decided to

20 get off the bus?

21 A. When we came to this place that was called Sokolina, I heard the

22 driver, because on the bus there were two men who were escorts, guards,

23 who asked him why he stopped. He said that the engine was boiling and

24 that he had to add some water into the cooler. What I heard was the

25 stream, the brook, nearby, when the bus stopped.

Page 12074

1 Q. Now, could you describe the nature of the weapons used? In your

2 statement you state that small arms, hand-held rocket launchers and

3 zoljas were being fired. How were you able to tell that?

4 A. Now I'm going to tell you all about this but I'm not going to

5 take too long. When they got off the bus, for about 10 or 15 seconds --

6 or, rather, after 10 or 15 seconds, a strong detonation was heard from

7 the front and then gunfire started from small arms, and there were also

8 two stronger detonations. Then hand grenades were going off underneath

9 the bus. This went on for about 15 minutes. Later on, it went quiet.

10 I heard vehicles that were turned on afar, I heard wailing. I was being

11 sensible, and I said, "Try to keep quiet because if they hear that anyone

12 survived, they are going to kill everyone." However, nothing could be

13 heard after that. Vehicles approached the front of the bus. One man got

14 out of a vehicle and said to this person in the other vehicle, and I

15 heard it, he said, "Board the bus and see whether there is anyone who

16 survived." And this other one swore at him, he was using swear words in

17 relation to God and the church and he said that he could board the bus

18 himself and check if he wanted to. And then these vehicles went back to

19 the -- in the direction of Srednja.

20 I mean, I was underneath the dead and I was drinking the blood of

21 my relatives and neighbours. I was on the floor. My face and mouth were

22 on the floor but there was that much blood. It was unbearable.

23 I managed to get out with a neighbour and two more relatives and we managed

24 to get two other men out as well into the nearby forest, about 50 metres

25 away. They died on the spot. So we continued through the forest.

Page 12075

1 Let me try to explain something. Before the war, I was a

2 mountaineer, so I could recognise different places. I could realise

3 whether there would be any settlements nearby. I could also read

4 markings on trees, and luckily, I managed to get to Vukasevici, a Muslim

5 village, where I was received by the then Territorial Defence, headed by

6 Dzafer Heric, who immediately organised two tractors and went to take the

7 massacred persons out.

8 Q. Okay, Witness --

9 A. He found some zolja and Osa ammunition and some machine-gun

10 ammunition belts, and then the commander of the Chetnik guard in Srednja

11 arrived with his Chetniks and they tried to hush things up. However,

12 Dzafer said to Dragan Ikanovic, Dragan, there are witnesses who are still

13 alive. He said to Dzafer Heric that he did not see anything, that he is

14 not going into that, that this what is Boro Radic did and Ratko Hadzic.

15 And that's what Dzafer Heric conveyed to me when he came back, all of it,

16 and I saw these weapons that had been used. And that is why I claim

17 what -- that that was used to fire. And all of that.

18 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, in -- could you just specify the

19 precise number of men who were able to get off the bus after the shooting

20 incident?

21 A. Six of us got out. Two of them died immediately after they were

22 out, and the rest were found by the territorials on the next day, when

23 they came to get the massacred persons out.

24 Q. Witness, I'd now like to show you a video, so if you look at the

25 screen in front of you, we are going to play 65 ter 40159E.

Page 12076

1 [Video-clip played]

2 MR. GAYNOR: We can stop it there. We've stopped at

3 3 minutes and 14 seconds of that clip.

4 Q. Witness, could you explain what you saw in that video-clip?

5 A. I didn't see the video-clip.

6 JUDGE KWON: Probably we need to broadcast that video

7 otherwise --

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Now I can see.

9 JUDGE KWON: Shall we play it again?

10 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, thank you, Mr. President.

11 JUDGE KWON: Let's broadcast only that video-clip.

12 We will play the video again, Mr. Witness.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it now.

14 JUDGE KWON: We'll play it again.

15 [Video-clip played]

16 MR. GAYNOR: We can stop the video now. Thank you. We stopped

17 at 3 minutes and 7 seconds.

18 Q. Witness, can you tell the Court what you saw in that video-clip,

19 please?

20 A. This is the bus that took us there and we were massacred there.

21 As you can see, in the rear part of the bus, you can see a pile of

22 massacred bodies, and even on the outside, you can see blood that was

23 spurting all over.

24 Q. In your statement, this is paragraph 60, you state that Ibrahim,

25 a photographer from Vogosca, filmed a video. Is this the video to which

Page 12077

1 you were referring?

2 A. Yes.

3 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that as a public exhibit,

4 Mr. President.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2312, Your Honours.

7 MR. GAYNOR: Finally, I'd like to play another video. This is

8 65 ter 40159G. And again, if this could be broadcast so the witness can

9 see it.

10 [Video-clip played]

11 MR. GAYNOR: We can stop it there please, stopped at

12 15 minutes and 2 seconds.

13 Q. Could you tell the Court what you saw in the first part of that

14 clip, please?

15 A. That is the place near Vukasevici village, where the local

16 residents dug a mass grave in which the massacred residents of Ahatovici

17 village were buried. This grave is still there, only The Hague had

18 requested exhumation, and as a result, all these residents had been

19 identified for the second time and are now buried next to the mosque in

20 Ahatovici.

21 Q. And in the second part of that video we saw human bodies. Could

22 you tell the Court what you know about those?

23 A. Those were the bodies of the people who were butchered in the

24 bus. They were pulled out by members of the TO. And with their

25 assistance, since TO was in the area, and was commanded by Dzafer Heric,

Page 12078

1 they were brought up there to this location and buried. They were loaded

2 on two tractors.

3 Q. Now, in your answer a moment ago, where you said that residents

4 dug a mass grave in which the massacred residents of Ahatovici village

5 were buried, were you referring to the victims of the attack on Ahatovici

6 or to the victims of the bus massacre?

7 A. I was referring to the victims of the attack on the bus.

8 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that as a public exhibit.

9 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember the time frame where the video-clip

10 started? It's around 13 minutes, I remember.

11 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, 13.26.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.

13 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2313, Your Honours.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 MR. GAYNOR:

16 Q. Finally, Witness, were you personally present for the burial of

17 the victims of the bus massacre?

18 A. Alongside my relative, I was there. The other people who were

19 seriously wounded were transported via Olovo and Kladanj to Tuzla. They

20 were supposed to be operated but they only received first aid. My

21 relative and I tried to help with the identification of those massacred

22 bodies. We tried to determine that on the basis of their clothes and

23 things like that because none of them had any IDs on them because all the

24 documents were confiscated from us at the time we were taken prisoner.

25 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. Witness. That ends the direct

Page 12079

1 examination. There are no associated exhibits to be tendered.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor. We will take a break for

3 20 minutes, and we will resume at 11.00.

4 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

5 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Now, Mr. Witness, you will be asked further

7 questions by Mr. Karadzic. Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, witness. First of all, I would

11 like to clarify a number of issues relating to your village, and then we

12 shall move on to this incident. When did you start preparations for the

13 defence of your village?

14 THE ACCUSED: I don't hear. [Interpretation] I can't hear the

15 witness. You have to switch on that in front of you.

16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Could you repeat your answer,

17 Mr. Witness?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, we did not make

19 any preparations for the defence of our village.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. But didn't you state already that you had made some preparations?

22 Did you have trenches around your houses?

23 A. Those were not preparations. These trenches were to serve as

24 cover for people from shells. People wanted to survive, and as for women

25 and children, we hid them in the cellars of our houses that we called

Page 12080

1 shelters.

2 Q. When did you dig those trenches in your village?

3 A. It took place on or around the 23rd -- or, rather, between the

4 20th and the 25th, when the Serbian forces started digging themselves in

5 on the hills around Ahatovici.

6 Q. And when did you set up the Crisis Staff?

7 A. The so-called Crisis Staff, it wasn't actually a Crisis Staff.

8 Those were the village elders or leaders who, at the summons from the

9 Serbs from the barracks, who inherited this barracks after the departure

10 of the JNA, to enter negotiations. However, the Serbian side demanded

11 surrender of all men, which was not accepted. Those were the men who

12 were village leaders, and they were answerable to the local residents of

13 the village.

14 Q. Thank you. With all due respect, Mr. Witness --

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, make sure that you put a pause between

16 his answer and your question. In particular, given the fact that the

17 witness is not with us at this courtroom.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm kindly asking you that we don't make any

21 generalisations. Let us establish the exact order of move. Is it true

22 that Vahid Alispahic was a high-ranking official of the SDA and he was a

23 high-ranking official in the MUP? Was he the president of your SDA

24 branch?

25 A. Well, I knew that he was the president in town, but I don't know

Page 12081

1 that he did anything in the village of Ahatovici.

2 Q. But do you know that Bakir Alispahic, Hasan Efendic, commander of

3 the TO, and Jusuf Pusina, another high-ranking police official, came to

4 Ahatovici often during the summer of 1991?

5 A. I don't know about that, but I do know, while I was captured in

6 the camp, Mile Stojanovic, who introduced himself as the prison warden

7 and who said that he was a captain who had been stationed in another army

8 district, and I know that because a relative of mine, Esmar Jusufovic,

9 who is unfortunately deceased, told me later, after the war, that they

10 used to work together. That's how he introduced himself. And whenever

11 he came in front of this cistern where we were locked up, he would

12 mention Bakir Alispahic, who allegedly promised exchange at Kobilja Glava

13 and the women and children at the Bozica pump, he actually said that

14 Bakir Alispahic had no people for exchange.

15 Q. Thank you. Let us be precise. Is it true that this Crisis Staff

16 was formed in 1991, "yes" or "no"?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Is it true that at the head of this Crisis Staff, as its

19 commander and the commander of the TO, was Hasan Mujkic?

20 A. I don't know about that.

21 Q. In your amalgamated statement, in paragraph 5, did you say that

22 Mujkic, Hasan Mujkic -- give me just a moment, that in March of 1992,

23 during negotiations between representatives of the SDA and SDS, it was

24 decided by the Serbs to ask the Muslims to vacate the village of

25 Ahatovici and that this was conveyed to you by Hasan Mujkic,

Page 12082

1 representative of the village, who attended the meeting? Is that

2 correct?

3 A. Yes, but he was a representative of the residents of Ahatovici, a

4 representative, and nothing else. He wasn't a commander and he wasn't a

5 military person. I didn't know that.

6 Q. Thank you. 41 Serbs, voters, are asking 1500 Muslims to move out

7 of the village, is that what you're trying to say?

8 A. I know that they made that request, that they said that we should

9 surrender at the barracks and that our safety would be guaranteed, and

10 that pertained to men between 15 and 70 years of age.

11 Q. When did the war start in Sarajevo, Mr. Witness?

12 A. Well, the war -- the media war and every other war, as far as I'm

13 concerned, started when my village was attacked.

14 Q. Let me remind you that the war in Sarajevo started on the

15 6th of April.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. How was it possible, then, for the Serbs to ask you,

18 in March, to surrender, and 41 of them asked 1500 of you to surrender in

19 March, before the outbreak of war?

20 A. I don't know if it was March.

21 Q. Can Mr. Ram show you your statement because that's what it says

22 in your statement under item 5, to the effect that in March, negotiations

23 were held and that the Serbs were requesting you to leave the village.

24 A. That's not correct. I know that there were negotiations in May,

25 when Hasan Mujkic went there, and then he returned and told us what the

Page 12083

1 other side wanted.

2 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. You say, that the Serbs had erected barricades and that they

6 checked people at those barricades and their identity cards were

7 inspected. When were these barricades erected?

8 A. Well, sometime between 20 and 25th, while they were preparing an

9 attack on Sokolje village.

10 Q. Which month?

11 A. May.

12 Q. Thank you. But up until then, you could move freely without any

13 checks?

14 A. Well, the barricades around Ahatovici were set up earlier, I

15 don't remember the exact date, on the bridge near Butile barracks, where

16 at present there is cattle market. There is a bridge on the River Bosna

17 and that's where one barricade was, so in order to pass through there,

18 you had to be inspected. It was possible to go to -- through the forest

19 to Visoko via Bioca.

20 Q. When was this barricade erected and how long it stayed there?

21 A. This barricade was still there when I was taken prisoner and

22 taken away to Butile. And after that, when we were transported in a

23 military bus from Butile to Rajlovac, all these barricades were there.

24 They had to remove those iron beams in order to allow the vehicles to

25 pass.

Page 12084

1 Q. That was nearly two months into the war, correct?

2 A. Not two months. The war that I recollect, and everything else,

3 started on the 25th of May when Sokolje came under attack.

4 Q. Thank you. But up to that point, you didn't have any problems

5 with the war?

6 A. No. I didn't have any problems because I was trying to survive.

7 I was working in Blazuj and sometime in February or March 1992, my

8 foreman told me not to come to work anymore.

9 Q. Let's dwell on the barricades. You say that people were stopped

10 there and that their IDs were checked, and that the people manning the

11 barricades had certain lists. Does that mean that they were looking for

12 specific people and that if the people were not on the list, they were

13 let through?

14 A. Yes. That's correct. While the bus was travelling between

15 Dobrosevici and Stup, it was mostly women who travelled. Men didn't dare

16 venture out, and they would tell us what they saw on the way, after they

17 would return, and what the situation was.

18 Q. In 65 ter 90224, this is another statement of yours, you said

19 that the Serbs were checking the people while they were going to work.

20 A. No. We heard that from the women upon their return from town,

21 because that is what they saw. If there were any men on the bus, they

22 were probably Serbs.

23 Q. Well, there were your women, Muslim women?

24 A. Yes. And they witnessed when people were checked, their

25 identification papers were checked. And that's what they did at the

Page 12085

1 barricades.

2 Q. In paragraph 7 of your statement, didn't you say that while you

3 would go to work, you would come across these barricades, and the Serbs

4 checked identity of the passengers by looking at a list and they compared

5 the names with the names on the list? Is that how it was?

6 A. No. That's not what I said. When I was travelling to Blazuj,

7 already in Blazuj, near the company where I worked, they were erecting

8 barricades and checking people's IDs.

9 Q. I'm going to read your paragraph 7. Unfortunately, I have to do

10 it in English. That's your amalgamated statement, page 3:

11 [In English] "Since I travelled to Sarajevo daily by bus, at that

12 time, due to the presence of the -- these Serbs, check-points and

13 barricades, I feared to come to work. The Chetniks who manned these

14 check-points used to stop the buses and search them with the pretext of

15 searching for weapons. I noticed that during these searches the Chetniks

16 checked the Muslims rather than the Serbs, who travelled in them. They

17 always asked for our identity cards and checked them with a list of

18 Muslim names which they had. I do not know on what basis this list was

19 prepared. However, no one was arrested in my presence. I have not seen

20 this list but I am aware that it was prepared in March 1992 and

21 consistent -- consisted of Muslim names whom the Serbs thought were

22 trouble-makers."

23 [Interpretation] Is this what you stated?

24 A. All of this was happening in Blazuj, at the barricades.

25 Q. But it says here that you travelled from Ahatovici to Sarajevo,

Page 12086

1 in which case you don't pass through Blazuj?

2 A. Yes, but at the time there was no barricade on the bridge in

3 Bojnik. When I reached Stup and then Ilidza, and from Ilidza by bus to

4 Blazuj, at the Mostar intersection in Blazuj there were already

5 barricades erected and IDs were checked.

6 Q. But, Mr. Witness, Blazuj is not in Sarajevo. Ahatovici is closer

7 to Sarajevo than Blazuj; is that correct?

8 A. Yes, I know that. And I said where they performed these checks

9 in Blazuj. If I said barricades, I didn't say that there was a barricade

10 in Bojnik.

11 Q. We'll get back to this. It says here that you were afraid to go

12 to work any longer. You don't say that you were sacked from your job by

13 your foreman.

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 12088

1 A. No. Well, some people did but I don't know about that. People

2 who had money and whatever, perhaps they did buy some. I know that in

3 Ahatovici, there was a registered hunting society, and then from

4 Dobrosevici, Kobilja, Bioce, this was a hunting society and these people

5 had hunting guns. Some people even had two. Before the war people had

6 pistols as well. And I'd like to point out that in Ahatovici, and in

7 part of Dobrosevici and the surrounding area, there were some active duty

8 policemen as well of the reserve police force. They had had automatic

9 weapons issued to them. I know that.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at

12 65 ter 22187?

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. That is your statement from the 15th of April, 1993.

15 Could it please not be broadcast because of the name.

16 The second paragraph contains information that you gave, that you

17 had, about 150 small arms and that these were actually semi-automatic and

18 automatic rifles. Is that what you said?

19 A. I meant semi-automatic and automatic weapons that active duty

20 policemen had as well as the reserve police force. There were only about

21 15 pieces or so. All the rest were hunting guns. They -- the hunters

22 also had carbines.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 17 of this

25 document? And I'm going to read it out to you.

Page 12089

1 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Page 17 of the document says -- so here it is. It's the second

4 line from the top:

5 "To that end, we bought weapons individually, exclusively

6 infantry weapons, that is to say, pistols, guns, all the way up to

7 semi-automatic and automatic rifles. With a view to better organisation

8 and defending the village, we established a Crisis Staff and it was

9 headed by Hasan Mujkic, son of Jakub. We had about 150 weapons. In

10 addition to Hasan Mujkic, on the Crisis Staff there was Mujkic Husein,

11 Mujkic Sefko, Gacanovic Cazim, Gacanovic Muhamed, Novalija Meho, Mujkic

12 Fikret, Mujkic Dzemal ..."

13 Is that true what you stated in April 1993?

14 A. Well, look. Again you're saying Crisis Staff. These are village

15 leaders, the village elders. You can call them the Crisis Staff or

16 whatever. I told you no one could forbid the people to buy weapons and

17 whatever. However, even if there were who knows how many weapons in the

18 village, if you look at guns, tanks, Pragas, on the other side, and then

19 there is this village in Lijeva [phoen] that is surrounded by barracks,

20 and also around Ahatovici, even if some people did buy weapons out of

21 fear, so what? To defend their own homes, their own door step, no

22 problem with that. As for Ahatovici, I know about 50 men were there,

23 able bodied --

24 Q. We'll get to that. Please.

25 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated] Let me understand the

Page 12090

1 situation, how the witness is able to see the document. Is he seeing the

2 document through e-court or has he the document in front of him?

3 Probably Court Deputy in Sarajevo can help us.

4 THE REGISTRAR [via videolink]: Your Honours, we have the

5 document here, but we're not sure of the page number.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Whenever a specific document is referred to,

7 please help him to read the document. We are on page 17 of his

8 statement.

9 Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 22187, Mr. Ram, and it's

11 page 17 in this longer document.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness, while it's being found, I don't call that the

14 Crisis Staff. You were calling it the Crisis Staff. And you say who

15 headed it. In the next paragraph, you say that the Serb population moved

16 out, in mid-May, from Ahatovici to Butile and Reljevo. Are you trying to

17 say that, in mid-May, the Serbs, the Serb population, went to the

18 barracks in Butile to stay there, to live there; is that right?

19 A. They left their homes and they went down there to Bojnik, where

20 Serb areas were.

21 Q. What about Butile, does that mean that they went to the barracks?

22 A. I consider that to be Serb territory at the time.

23 Q. Thank you. Is Butile barracks of the former JNA?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Thank you. In this same statement you say that you stood guard

Page 12091

1 around the village, and then, on the 25th of May, you received an

2 ultimatum from the former JNA and the local paramilitaries to surrender

3 your weapons, and this was done through a loud speaker.

4 A. Yes, that's right. An armoured vehicle was moving about and they

5 used a loud speaker from the school in Dobrosevici, and they were asking

6 for surrender.

7 Q. They were calling for a surrender of weapons, right?

8 A. Well, surrender. Well, generally speaking. I mean of men, too.

9 And probably they meant weapons as well.

10 Q. Could you please take your statement where it says that you

11 should hand over weapons. It doesn't say that you were supposed to

12 surrender?

13 A. This is what was said very nicely, that men should surrender,

14 whoever has weapons.

15 Q. Could you please have a look at this paragraph on the first page

16 of your statement? "On the 25th of May, 1992," do you see that

17 paragraph? Page 17 of this compound document, on the first page.

18 JUDGE KWON: It would be more convenient if you read out the

19 ERN number so that the Court Deputy can be -- can identify the proper

20 page.

21 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation].

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I found it.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Does it say here that you should surrender your weapons?

25 A. I'm going to read it out:

Page 12092

1 "On the 20th of May, 1992, we received an ultimatum from the

2 former JNA and local paramilitaries to surrender our weapons. This

3 request was issued by guards around our village."

4 Q. This request came over a loud speaker. That's what it says,

5 right? You skipped one line.

6 A. "This request came over a loud speaker. Of course, we did not

7 agree to this, and we continued to stand guard around our village."

8 That's right. But they were issuing this ultimatum to us for us

9 to surrender as well.

10 Q. So why didn't you say that in this statement?

11 A. Well, I cannot think of everything.

12 Q. Then, on the 27th of May, you say you were attacked. By what

13 kind of forces, how many soldiers were there?

14 A. On the 27th of May, that is after the attack at Sokolje, on the

15 27th, because they did not manage to take Sokolje, they just turned their

16 weapons, because Ahatovici is to the left. All the hills around

17 Ahatovici, Serbs were there, they dug in there with their heavy weapons,

18 and the barrels were just turned in this direction.

19 Let me just tell you one more thing. You can see the barracks of

20 Butile and Rajlovac from my house, and the entire farm, and also the area

21 where the tanks were placed. On the hills you saw Pragas that were dug

22 in. It's about 100 metres away from my home as the crow flies.

23 Q. Thank you. Thank you. Can I please ask you that we do not speak

24 in so general terms. Let us focus on these details. Were you attacked

25 by infantry from Dobrosevici or by artillery on the 27th of May?

Page 12093

1 A. On the 27th, shelling started and, from time to time, there was

2 gunfire coming from side arms, probably to scare the population, and to

3 show force.

4 Q. And then you say that you successfully repelled that attack

5 without any losses on your side. How could you repel an artillery

6 attack? Were you attacked by the infantry from Dobrosevici and you

7 managed to repel the attack? Look at this very same page, the next

8 paragraph.

9 A. I have to explain this a bit. I was in the lower part of the

10 village because up above Ahatovici you could hear infantry gunfire,

11 things like that. It's possible that someone was attacking. Perhaps the

12 guards were trying to repel the attack.

13 Q. You say, in another paragraph, on the 20th of June, 1997 --

14 65 ter 22187, we had called it up a few moments ago. Let's just see

15 which page we need. You say that attacks on Ahatovici took place on the

16 27th of May from Rjecica and Rajlovac at 2300 hours, but the villagers --

17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. The villagers responded with gunfire and repelled the attack.

20 For defence we only had about 50 small calibre weapons.

21 So how many did you have as stated?

22 A. The entire village had between 50 and 150 weapons, as far as

23 I could tell, roughly. And I did say that it came from the area of Do.

24 It's on the other side. There is this small river there, this brook.

25 Q. And you say here that you were attacked from the direction of

Page 12094

1 Rjecica, the brook, and from the direction of Rajlovac?

2 A. Yes. That was behind the part where we were, this brook, and

3 Rjecica was behind us, where our guards stood, and that's above

4 Ahatovici. That place is called Do.

5 Q. Did you suffer any losses on the 27th of May?

6 A. As far as I know, there were people wounded.

7 Q. In your statement given on the 15th of April, 1993, you say that

8 you repelled the attack and sustained no losses; whereas in your

9 statement of the 20th of June, 1997, you say that two Muslims were killed

10 and about ten wounded. So which is true?

11 A. What is true is that they were wounded, that people were wounded.

12 As for two Muslims, I heard in the village that they had committed

13 suicide.

14 Q. Why would they commit suicide?

15 A. Most likely -- four women committed suicide with them, probably

16 out of fear.

17 Q. Why is that not mentioned anywhere in your statements?

18 A. Well, it just depends on what I remembered at what point in time.

19 Q. Ah-hah, all right. Let me now read parts of the statement of

20 Mujkic Edin, which is 65 ter 22184. You don't have that part with you.

21 I will read it out to you. He gave that statement and on page 2, and

22 over on page 3, he says:

23 "I learned later on that commander of the Territorial Defence of

24 Ahatovici, Mujkic Hasan, decided to flee before his men. He's a former

25 policeman, and he fled together with his brother and deputy Husein and

Page 12095

1 his uncle, Junuz. They reached Visoko via Krstac hill."

2 And then on page 3 it says:

3 "I emphasise that the enemy found, in his house, lists of

4 fighters with weapons issued to them. It was typed on four pages. I saw

5 these lists in the hands of aggressor officers. They used these lists in

6 order to determine the status of each one of our captured soldiers. In

7 relation to that, they particularly tortured those fighters who had been

8 issued with a sniper or with a mortar."

9 So you had the names of fighters, taking the whole of four pages,

10 together with information about the weapons issued to them. Among them

11 there were people who had snipers issued to them and mortars, sabotage

12 mortars. Do you know about that?

13 A. I don't. I don't know about that.

14 Q. Did you build two shelters, two fortified shelters in your

15 village?

16 A. No, no shelters were built. Those were simply houses who had

17 very strongly built basements.

18 Q. And were they reinforced? What did they use to reinforce them?

19 A. No, this was just a basement area, cellar area, that was made out

20 of concrete.

21 Q. Uh-huh. Did you have trenches or not? And then back in 1991,

22 did you have them?

23 A. Not in 1991, but in 1992, in May, depending on where people lived

24 and where they had houses, people would dig out an area in order to hide

25 there, near their houses. And I apologise but let me tell you that I had

Page 12096

1 no weapons whatsoever, nor did I have any need to attack anyone or kill

2 anyone.

3 Q. Thank you. You mention here that the barracks were just across.

4 Was it the barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army?

5 A. There were two barracks. One was called Orao, which was a

6 factory, and the other one was the Butile barracks.

7 Q. Thank you. Do you know that in mid-1991, there was a

8 mobilisation of reservists of the Yugoslav People's Army due to war in

9 Croatia?

10 A. I know about that. But let me tell you, I also was a reservist

11 in the barracks called Koran, at Pale. They called me up sometime in

12 1988. If you remember, there were exercises, manoeuvres, held of the

13 Yugoslav People's Army. I think that the whole operation was called

14 Nevesinje 88. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It was quite sometime

15 ago. And then in 1990, they called me to come to Lukavica. There was an

16 entire battalion there, mostly Muslims and Croats, who were dismissed.

17 They returned their equipment and they were sent home without being given

18 any other assignment.

19 Q. Did you say 1988?

20 A. Yes. But actually during that period of time, I'm not quite

21 sure, it was a long time ago. Perhaps you know better than I do.

22 Q. Thank you. I apologise to the interpreters. In Ahatovici, did

23 you manufacture weapons, ammunition and explosives?

24 A. I don't know about that.

25 Q. So there could have been something of that nature without you

Page 12097

1 knowing about that?

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 Q. Thank you. I would kindly ask you, since we do not have much

14 time, and we would rather not recall you to come back to complete your

15 testimony, let us just focus on the most important things. You say that

16 the main attack on Ahatovici commenced on the 29th of May, that they used

17 Howitzers, 105- and 155-millimetres multiple rocket launchers, mortars,

18 tanks and similar weaponry. How did you come to this conclusion?

19 A. Yes. It was an all-out attack from all directions, from both

20 barracks, from the surrounding hills, such as Tijekovac [phoen]

21 Koprivica, Paljevo. From the entire area that had been taken by Serbs

22 around Ahatovici, they started shelling, and it lasted some three days,

23 as far as I can remember. Everything was on fire. My house was knocked

24 down.

25 Q. Thank you. I regret about your house, but let us look at this,

Page 12098

1 Witness. You mentioned 4.000 shells. How did you come to conclusion

2 that 4.000 shells had fallen?

3 A. I gave it as a rough figure. There were numerous shells,

4 innumerable shells that fell.

5 Q. Thank you. How many Serb fighters, Serb soldiers, attacked you

6 on the 29th of May?

7 A. Well, I can't give you the exact number but there were thousands

8 of them. They came from all directions.

9 Q. Thank you. In one place you said 1.000, in another place you

10 said 2.000. So there could have been more than 2.000?

11 A. Well, listen, that's my estimate.

12 Q. Thank you. Did you undertake any offensive operations prior to

13 that against surrounding Serb villages and the Butile barracks? Did you

14 undertake any offensive operations against surrounding villages?

15 A. No. I personally didn't. But some people that had weapons, most

16 likely they did return fire.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know who was the leader of the Green Berets

18 and Patriotic League in your village?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you know that the Patriotic League and the Green Berets had

21 been established back in early 1991?

22 A. I know that they were established, but I don't know that any of

23 them were present in Ahatovici. I know that we received some

24 misinformation that there were about 500 members of Green Berets in

25 Ahatovici, which is simply beyond comprehension, as though it rained

Page 12099

1 members of the Green Berets in Ahatovici. We didn't have that many

2 residents.

3 Q. Weren't there 1500 Muslim residents in Ahatovici?

4 A. Yes. But many residents fled as a result of fear. They fled to

5 their relatives in the city and surrounding towns, Visoko, Breza and so

6 on.

7 Q. Is it true that it was mostly women, children and the elderly who

8 went to stay with relatives?

9 A. Also younger people left, because the parents took them with

10 them. They didn't allow them to remain back in the village. When the

11 attack started, people were fleeing all over, in panic. Some managed to

12 flee via the forest. Some came across minefields. All kinds of things

13 happened.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, can we see 1D3261? I hope that you have that in

15 hard copy in front of you. 1D3261. Could we see it in e-court, please?

16 Unfortunately we don't have it yet but I will read it out to you.

17 This document comes from the Ministry of the Interior of

18 Republika Srpska, and this is the bulletin of daily events number 114.

19 It says here that there were places where sniper fire was opened in

20 Dobrinja and Vrace. And then in the second paragraph it says:

21 "Green Berets and other Muslim paramilitary formations which,

22 yesterday, on the 29th of May, 1992, attacked parts of local commune

23 Dobrosevici, villages Bjelugovici, Mihaljevici and Bojnik, were repelled

24 and pushed into the -- into the school in Dobrosevici and from the

25 village of Bioce in Ilijas municipality, and then surrounded in the

Page 12100

1 village of Ahatovici. The Serb army issued an ultimatum to these

2 paramilitary groups in the village of Ahatovici to surrender by

3 30th of May, 1992, by 1800 hours."

4 So you attacked --

5 JUDGE KWON: Just a minute. Yes, Mr. Gaynor?

6 MR. GAYNOR: I simply want to inform the Court that an English

7 translation of this "SRNA" press release -- sorry, of this document,

8 excuse me, is available at 65 ter 00298.

9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see it in the

11 e-court and we can put aside the Serb version because I've read it out.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Witness --

14 A. Yes?

15 Q. The first paragraph, before the heading "Banja Luka CSB."

16 Witness, so the Green Berets attacked the Serb parts of the local

17 commune of Dobrosevici. They were repelled, pushed back to Dobrosevici

18 and then given an ultimatum to surrender. It was only then that an

19 ultimatum was issued to have soldiers surrender, right?

20 A. Mr. Karadzic, what is stated here is not true. Just like when

21 I was in the camp in Rajlovac, when I was imprisoned in the cistern, they

22 came with a prewritten text and those people who had no visible injuries

23 were given these texts to read out while the cameraman from "SRNA" was

24 filming it, and these people had to lie in front of cameras.

25 Q. Please, please, let us not waste time because we will need

Page 12101

1 ten hours instead of two.

2 A. So this is not true. Did you capture a single member of the

3 Green Berets?

4 Q. We will get back to that.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D3262, which is where

6 police report the events on the next day. I hope this document has been

7 translated too. This is the bulletin of daily events number 115.

8 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. It says here, constant sniper fire in the area of Grbavica, Vrace

11 and Dobrinje is what Muslim groups used to provoke and so on. And then

12 the next paragraph, in the Serbian village of Rajlovac, local commune

13 Dobrosevici, village of Ahatovici, the Green Berets carried out an attack

14 on the Serb houses in the villages of Bojnik, Bjelugovici and

15 Mihaljevici. The attack was repelled during the night on the

16 1st of June, 1992. Muslim terrorists were encircled. In the village of

17 Ahatovici they are putting up resistance, but the village is under the

18 control of the Serb army.

19 Witness, let me ask you: In your statement given on the

20 15th of January, 1998, you said that they captured all of your civilians.

21 So were you a civilian on that day or were you a combatant?

22 A. Which date did you mention?

23 Q. Well, on the 1st of June, 1992, you were pushed back into

24 Ahatovici.

25 A. This is when the village Ahatovici was captured.

Page 12102

1 Q. And in relation to that, you say that women and children were

2 separated and then transported to the industrial centre. And they

3 arrested all of us civilians. So were you a civilian?

4 A. I was.

5 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, we have a hard copy of the English

6 translation of this document. I can provide the hard copy to

7 Your Honours right now.

8 JUDGE KWON: But I take it Mr. Karadzic has done with that

9 document, right? Do you need to continue with that document?

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I am done with this,

11 only this part pertains to Ahatovici. We don't need to deal with this

12 document anymore. We can use it for some other locations.

13 JUDGE KWON: I note the time. It's time to take a break. This

14 time we'll have a break for half an hour.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you please take into

16 consideration the possibility that we might need more time? It is well

17 known that people from Bosnia, we, who come from Bosnia, like to talk at

18 length. I would prefer him to focus on the answers, but at any rate,

19 I would appreciate if additional time were granted to me.

20 JUDGE KWON: We will resume at half past 12.

21 --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

22 --- On resuming at 12.32 p.m.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 12103

1 Q. Mr. Witness, what kind of military specialty did you have in the

2 army?

3 A. Technical service. I underwent three months of training and

4 after that I was appointed a courier.

5 Q. Is someone who is a courier good with maps?

6 A. Yeah, well, yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Let us now discuss groups that you mentioned. Do you

8 call all Serbs Chetniks or were you referring to some specific groups

9 based on their insignia and their uniforms?

10 A. I was referring to specific groups according to their uniforms.

11 Q. Therefore, you are not calling all the Serbs Chetniks and

12 extremists?

13 A. No, I don't.

14 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us now which specific groups you

15 observed and identified, what kind of uniforms they had, and what kind of

16 insignia they wore?

17 A. They had fur hats with a cockade, with four Ss. They had

18 bandoliers and bayonets and weapons. Only a few of them had rifles. The

19 majority had automatic weapons.

20 Q. Thank you. In your statement when you are making reference to

21 Serbian Special Forces, did you mean those groups?

22 A. No. When I said Serbian Special Forces, I was referring to the

23 soldiers dressed in camouflage uniforms who had Red Berets on their

24 heads, that's what I saw.

25 Q. You say that the Serbian Special Forces wore masks.

Page 12104

1 A. Yes. Those who came to the camp where we were, allegedly to take

2 us for exchange.

3 Q. Thank you. You said that you noticed White Eagles and Arkan's

4 men. How did you distinguish between the two?

5 A. When I was taken prisoner in Bojnik, Zoran Damjanovic told me

6 about Arkan's men. In fact he says, "You will be taken over now by

7 Arkan's men." As for the White Eagles, they had white ribbons on their

8 sleeves and around their heads.

9 Q. Thank you. Tell me, this man Zuti that you mention was a member

10 of Vikic's unit of Special Police, is that the same Vikic who remained as

11 the commander of the Muslim Special Police, the notorious Vikic?

12 A. Yes, that's him.

13 Q. Thank you. So this person Zuti was a member of Special Forces.

14 Are you sure that such member of Special Forces would be a simple driver

15 for Mr. Tintor?

16 A. I don't know about that. I heard that from Alija Gacanovic, a

17 neighbour of mine who knew him, and he said this is Zuti, he's a member

18 of the former special unit of Vikic, and the driver of Joja Tintor.

19 Q. Thank you. In your statement of the 30th of October -- just a

20 moment. No, no, thank you. I'm sorry. You say that a woman wanted to

21 kill some people because her brother had been killed by the Muslims.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Thank you. Did you make any mention of a student who wanted to

24 take revenge on his teacher while he was a young man?

25 A. I don't remember that.

Page 12105

1 Q. Thank you. During the fighting in Ahatovici, did you have any

2 combatants outside Ahatovici?

3 A. No. We didn't. Those were not combatants. Sometime in May,

4 from the direction of Visoko, four men were brought down there who

5 originated from Bratunac, who were actually captured in Bratunac and were

6 imprisoned in the school, and they were exchanged in Visoko. In order

7 for them to be exchanged they were brought to Ahatovici and they were

8 supposed to proceed to Sarajevo. However, it was impossible for them to

9 travel any further and they remained in Ahatovici. I remember that the

10 two of them had the last name of Salkic, and another two were brought

11 with these two. They were all active-duty soldiers of the former JNA who

12 had fled Vukovar and were brought there. They didn't have any weapons

13 with them. I remember the name of one of them, Ramiz Peljto.

14 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Witness, if I tell you that we captured some

15 men several times, do you realise then that these men from Bratunac had

16 come there to fight again once they had been exchanged?

17 A. No. They just wanted to pass through and head for Sarajevo.

18 Q. Thank you.

19 A. I'm sorry, they had relatives in Sarajevo.

20 Q. Thank you. You say here, on page 4 of your statement, that

21 Nikola Stanisic used to have some personal problems with the man called

22 Sok, and that that was a good opportunity for him to settle the accounts

23 with him.

24 A. I'm sorry, it wasn't Nikola Stanisic who had problems with Sok.

25 Sok was the commander of the unit that mistreated us.

Page 12106

1 Q. Yes. You're right. I'm sorry. Delic Hajro, you say, told us

2 that at the initiative of Nikola Stanisic, with whom he had some problems

3 before, was beaten by Sok as if it was Nikola Stanisic who had ordered

4 that?

5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

6 MR. GAYNOR: I'm trying to keep up with the various statements

7 that the accused has referred to, so if he could just -- every time he

8 refers to a statement could he tell us which statement he's referring to,

9 please. Thank you.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, that's the witness [as

11 interpreted] of the 15th of April, 1993, given by this witness, and on

12 page 3, at the bottom, and on page 4, it says that Hajro Delic told

13 how -- about how he had been beaten up and then he said that that was

14 done at the initiative of Nikola Stanisic with whom he had some conflicts

15 before the war.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Is that correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Thank you. Then on the same page, page 4, towards the bottom,

20 you said that a woman called Mladjenka asked the guards, a couple of

21 prisoners, so that she can execute them because allegedly we, the

22 Muslims, had killed her brother Mladjen in Ahatovici, and that the guards

23 removed her and drove her away?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Again, there is reference to the guards when Zuti threw tear gas

Page 12107

1 or some other gas to the cistern, and as soon as he went away, the guards

2 opened the cistern up and saved you?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. Thank you. On page 5, you say that on the 14th of June, at

5 around 1830, Ramiz Peljto was taken out by his former colleagues, two of

6 his former colleagues, from the JNA, that he had abandoned, and that you

7 had never seen or heard of him again. Was there something between those

8 three?

9 A. Well, look, as far as I know, the two who came there were dressed

10 in camouflage uniforms and they called the name of Ramiz Peljto, claiming

11 that they allegedly went to school together. They took him behind and

12 I never saw him return. Immediately after that, members of the Special

13 Forces came, packed us on to the buses and drove us away where they did.

14 Q. Thank you. Do you know or is your village in Novi Grad

15 municipality?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. Do you know that Joja Tintor was associated with

18 Vogosca municipality?

19 A. I know that very well. Joja Tintor and my late father were

20 friends. My father was born in Ahatovici and my grandfather, my late

21 grandfather, being elderly people, they knew each other. There were

22 brotherly connections among these people and I really don't know who

23 could have driven a wedge between them, and how a human being can do

24 something like that to another human being. Now, Joja Tintor had friends

25 in Ahatovici that he used to visit. Anyway, I would see him in passing,

Page 12108

1 and to this day I believe that he was a nice man. I saw him when I was

2 taken prisoner, and he sent us in a file -- and these soldiers were

3 taking us. But as soon as he came, all these things that were happening

4 stopped. He gave us bandages to dress our wounds. I never saw

5 Joja Tintor again, but I know that he owned a restaurant in Vogosca. I

6 know where his family house is. They used to attend burials, funerals,

7 at the Serbian Orthodox cemetery. For example, the funeral of Dusko from

8 Rajlovac, we all attended the funeral. People knew each other. They

9 were perhaps not nodding acquaintances that didn't need to socialise.

10 Q. Thank you. But during the attack you did not see Joja; is that

11 correct?

12 A. No, I didn't.

13 Q. Thank you. You saw him after the attack. Who told you that he

14 was the commander?

15 A. That's how the soldiers addressed him, Commander Joja.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 A. Maybe if I add something it will help. On the ex-JNA uniform

18 that he wore he had three stars on each epaulette.

19 Q. And he had a five-pointed star on his cap?

20 A. Yes, he did.

21 Q. Mr. Witness, I must tell you that the last person on this earth

22 to put the five-pointed star on his cap would be Joja Tintor. Could that

23 have been perhaps someone else?

24 A. No. When we were imprisoned in the camp, this man Sok, whose

25 full name I don't know, used to wear a flag on his shirt, the Yugoslav

Page 12109

1 flag, and also another flag on the right-hand side of his cap.

2 Q. If I told you that he never liked either Yugoslavia or the

3 four-pointed star -- now, you were taken out of this detention and put on

4 the buses on the 14th of June?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many men were in the bus?

7 A. 55.

8 Q. Thank you. And you say that you were all lying on the floor of

9 the bus?

10 A. In the rear of the city transport bus, if you can imagine how big

11 this space is, which is only the space for standing, we were lying face

12 down, one on top of the other, like sardines in a tin.

13 Q. Thank you. In how many rows, all 50 of you or whatever number

14 you said?

15 A. Two rows. And in between, between those rows of seats, there was

16 some more space.

17 Q. Were you in the first row and was someone lying on you or were

18 you in the second row and was someone on the other side?

19 A. I was in the first row. I was the third one to get out of the

20 cistern, and I lay there by the back door of the bus, right next to the

21 stairs.

22 Q. And how many men were lying over you?

23 A. All of them. There were like five men lying on me. It was

24 crowded.

25 Q. Five rows or five men or in two rows? How many rows were above

Page 12110

1 you?

2 A. One row, but there were five, one next to the other.

3 Q. Thank you. And inside, in addition to yourself, how many did you

4 say were there, 50, 55?

5 A. 55, 55. Packed, no one was allowed to sit down where the chairs

6 were. At the entrance, this guard, who had this black mask on his face,

7 he was hitting people in the back and he was saying, "Going to -- go into

8 the back of the bus, lie down, face down."

9 Q. Thank you. So there were two guards there in addition to the 55

10 of you packed like sardines?

11 A. Two guards and a driver, of course, this Zuti, who I know as

12 Zuti, and who came with a van in front, and Alija Gacanovic said that he

13 was a member of the Special Forces of Dragan Vikic.

14 Q. Thank you. Then you went from Semizovac to Srednjevo [phoen],

15 right?

16 A. We set out towards the gate, to the right, to Rajlovac, across

17 the railroad. You know very well that you go right to town and to the

18 left you go to the Vogosca intersection, and from there, you go to the

19 right to Kobilja Glava and to the left to Semizovac. And then from

20 Semizovac to the right and on the right is Ilijas. Let me just remind

21 that you had family members in Gora, which is a village near Srednje, if

22 you know the area.

23 Q. Yes, yes, in Gora, the predominant population is Croat, right?

24 So you took the right-hand road towards Srednjevo?

25 A. Yes, to the right from Semizovac.

Page 12111

1 Q. Did you pass Srednje or did you turn before Srednje?

2 A. When you pass the bridge, in Srednje, we passed underneath

3 somehow, and we turned, and that is where the barricade was, and I heard

4 the driver ask, Where is this, what place is this? And this man said

5 Srednje. And he also asked how much more to this place called Sokolina.

6 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that along that road towards Gora and

7 Bozic, that's where the separation line was, right, or the front line?

8 A. I don't know about that. I don't know about that.

9 Q. Thank you. Then you turned right and you came to this place

10 called Sokolina?

11 A. Well, look, in Srednje, we turned left, and that is where this

12 conversation took place, and then we went straight ahead. Then I felt

13 that we were on a macadam road.

14 Q. Thank you. But if you had turned left, you would have gone to

15 Bozici. Straight ahead you went through Vukasevici and Visevice; right?

16 A. Yes, yes.

17 Q. Is Sokolina along the road between the villages of Visevice and

18 Vukasevici?

19 A. Yes, yes. Also, there is a sawmill there that was processing

20 wood, logs, from that area.

21 Q. Thank you. Your hearing is pretty good, isn't it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. You heard a vehicle escorting you behind the bus, right?

24 A. No. No. When we set out from Rajlovac, I saw two vehicles

25 straight ahead, and two vehicles behind us. These two vehicles were

Page 12112

1 following us. I heard them all the way up to the barricade in Srednje.

2 When we took this macadam road, I no longer heard them.

3 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that Vukasevici is a Muslim village in

4 Serb territory?

5 A. I don't know that they are in Serb territory, but I know that it

6 is a Muslim village. Next to Vukasevici is the Serb village of

7 Drazevici.

8 Q. Thank you. Vukasevici, at that point in time, had a

9 Territorial Defence which helped you, right?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. Thank you. Then at one moment, you said that you heard a big

12 explosion, right, and after that you also heard automatic gunfire, right?

13 A. Yes, a strong detonation, explosion. As I was lying in the back

14 part, I felt this detonation behind my back. There were masses of

15 people. Everybody was shaken. Glass was shattered. We heard wailing.

16 Well, look, that cannot happen if a bullet is fired. It can only be a

17 100-millimetre rocket launcher or zoljas. The Territorial Defence, when

18 they took out the massacred men and brought them to the spot and showed

19 them there, and down there, there were members of the Serb army as well,

20 headed by Dragan Ikanovic, until then they were negotiating. You know

21 where Gajevi is, at Cevljansko Polje, where the hunting lodge is, of the

22 former president, the late president Tito. That is where they met and

23 where they negotiated all the way up until the massacre.

24 Q. Thank you. So the Visevice is a Serb village, and this Dragan --

25 is Dragan actually from Visevice or Srednje?

Page 12113

1 A. From Visevice.

2 Q. Vukasevici is a Muslim village and they had reached an agreement,

3 and I can refer to folk poetry to describe this, but it meant that no one

4 would touch anyone.

5 A. That's right. It was just this road where the massacre was

6 committed that was separation line, as it were, from Visevice. And then

7 from Visevice, a road had been made -- or actually, it was made later on,

8 from this hill, where these locals took me. And they showed me trucks

9 and trucks, going from Vogosca, and they were driving something, but I

10 don't know what it was.

11 Q. When was this shown to you, Witness?

12 A. During those days between the 16th of June and, well, further on,

13 because I stayed there with my uncle for about 11 days, for

14 rehabilitation and recovery.

15 Q. In Vukasevici?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Thank you. How was it that you got wounded? Did you enter the

18 bus as a wounded man?

19 A. Yes. My big toe on my left foot, it was grazed by a bullet and

20 also my upper leg was grazed by a bullet. This was before the massacre.

21 However, during the massacre, my upper left arm was hurt.

22 Q. Thank you. And wounded as you were, you got up and left with

23 your colleagues. Were any of them wounded?

24 A. Yes, yes. My neighbour, a young man who was about 15 at the

25 time, his arm and his leg were wounded, and my uncle was wounded -- I beg

Page 12114

1 your pardon, his private parts. And my relative was wounded with a large

2 calibre bullet, it must have been a 7.9, in the arm, up here, sort of

3 somehow it went length wise through his arm. And then his leg. And then

4 I, with the help of my uncle, who was a pretty strong man, so we managed

5 to help each other and also we helped those two.

6 We were so afraid but I realised that they were alive, sort of,

7 Rizvanovic Safet and the other colleague, and we just got them out

8 through the window. Oh, it was unbearable. And it was in the nearby

9 forest, we got them out there. It was about 50 metres away. And then

10 they died there in the forest because they had been so badly injured.

11 Let me just mention, Mr. Karadzic, that I had been a mountaineer,

12 a boy scout, that I did my military service in the army, that I know,

13 because there was a transmission line there, that I would reach some

14 village, and on a plateau I could hear fire. So I didn't want to go that

15 side. I went to the other side where it was peaceful. The road brought

16 me, luckily for me, to these Muslim villages.

17 And let me say one more thing. Up until then, negotiations were

18 taking place. And let me say one more thing. When the massacred men

19 were being buried, a Serb from the village of Drazevici came and said

20 that his wife died when she heard of this case, when these Muslims who

21 had not attacked went out there and helped him to bury his wife.

22 Q. Thank you. Let us try to explain this. The two men you got out

23 died soon afterwards, and you also said today that three men who remained

24 in the forest died and were later found massacred. Does that mean --

25 A. No, no. No, no. Those three hadn't died. What I said was that

Page 12115

1 three more men were found after the Territorial Defence arrived but they

2 were pretending to be dead. They didn't know who it was until they saw

3 TO on the shoulders of these men.

4 Q. The Muslim TO was wearing its own insignia in Serb-held

5 territory, right?

6 A. I don't know about that being Serb territory at the time.

7 Q. On whose territory was the bus hit?

8 A. Where the separation was, right in the middle of the road.

9 That's where the bus was stopped.

10 Q. On the separation line, right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Thank you. And wounded as you were, how long did it take you to

13 get to Vukasevici, how long is the road between Sokolina and Vukasevici?

14 A. I don't know exactly. But, look, an area that is unknown, fear,

15 everything else, when we got out of the bus -- and let me point out one

16 more thing. The rain that started to fall, it was all over the ground.

17 We just remained in our T-shirts and underwear, and throughout the night

18 we walked through the forest, and I managed to find some dirt path as

19 well, and I could crawl there, and I was trying to check whether land

20 mines had been planted there. And it's only towards daybreak that

21 I reached that village. Somehow I first tried to realise who was living

22 there, whether there were any sheep or pigs, or what kind of clothes

23 people were wearing. So this young man who was 15 years old, we told him

24 to go towards the house and to shout, "Neighbour, help." We said to him

25 that if everything is all right, he should get in touch with us, let us

Page 12116

1 know that everything was all right. If he doesn't get in touch

2 afterwards, then we should go on running.

3 Q. Thank you. Could we please try to keep the answers as short as

4 possible so that we don't take up too much time? So we did see that on

5 the 16th -- or, rather, on the 15th, in the morning, this Ibrahim

6 recorded this with a camera. Why didn't he get closer? Why did he stay

7 so far away? Was it because of the separation line?

8 A. No. Look, he was up there because when Dzafer Heric, the then

9 commander of the Territorial Defence up there, there were about 30 or

10 35 territorials, arrived. However, when they were getting the massacred

11 people out and towards the end, Dragan Ikanovic came with his own

12 fighters and with two trucks in order to trail the bus away. Probably to

13 cover up. I don't know. I can only guess. However, three days later,

14 they came and they set the bus on fire.

15 Q. Let us now try to keep it simple, Witness. Serbs -- two plus

16 two Serbs, two guards and two drivers, are driving 55 prisoners on a bus.

17 Then they use an explosive device to hit their own bus and the explosion

18 is strong. Then they fire at their own bus in order to ruin it and in

19 order to hit some Muslim inside if they are lucky, and then they leave

20 everything the way it was, and then the Muslim Territorial Defence

21 arrives. They get the dead and wounded outside. They record it with a

22 camera.

23 Can you explain this to me? How is it that the Serbs found that

24 to be useful for their own purposes, to do that and to leave the bus

25 right there on the spot?

Page 12117

1 A. Well, look --

2 MR. GAYNOR: Objection.

3 JUDGE KWON: He started, yes, just a second. Yes, Mr. Gaynor?

4 MR. GAYNOR: My objection is this. It's quite all right for the

5 accused to put a summary of the incident to the witness but the summary

6 is inaccurate. He says: "Serbs -- two plus two Serbs, two guards and

7 two drivers." I mean the evidence is quite clear. There was a bus and

8 four vehicles escorting the bus. There were two guards on the bus plus

9 the driver. That's point number 1. Point number 2, I don't think there

10 has been any evidence so far that the Muslim Territorial Defence took the

11 wounded off the bus. So if Mr. Karadzic is going to summarise the

12 incident, I submit that he should do so accurately.

13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.

14 He's absolutely right, Mr. Karadzic. Be cautious citing evidence

15 when summarising evidence and putting it to the witness.

16 Probably, Mr. Witness, having had the benefit of hearing

17 Mr. Gaynor, now you should be able to answer the question.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Did you say in your statements that on the following day, on the

21 15th, the TO came from the Muslim village of Vukasevici to pull out the

22 dead and wounded?

23 A. Could you please repeat your question?

24 Q. Is it true, and did you state this and was it true when you

25 stated it, that in the morning, on the 15th of June, the Territorial

Page 12118

1 Defence from the Muslim village of Vukasevici reached the bus in order to

2 pull out the dead and the wounded?

3 A. Yes, they came with two tractors.

4 Q. Thank you. And it was then that they filmed the bus, from the

5 hill, from an elevation?

6 A. Well, it wasn't the hill. It was a road, a path, used by horses

7 to transport logs, and there was a stable there where the horses were

8 kept, the horses used to pull out logs from the forest. And let me tell

9 you something else. When I managed to get out, when I managed to go up,

10 the territorials left immediately, and the TO men had their own scouts,

11 and their scouts followed the situation as it unfolded.

12 Q. All right. So we have resolved that. The Muslim TO came to pick

13 up these people. Did the Army of Republika Srpska join them or perhaps

14 another regular military formation headed by this Dragan, did they come

15 on the same day, did they analyse what had happened?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. All right. Witness, I will put this to you, this hypothesis.

18 This bus was hit by some sort of an explosive. It was either a mortar or

19 a rocket launcher, and then they started firing on it, and it was a sort

20 of an ambush and people in that ambush killed those on the bus and just

21 left them there. Do you know exactly which unit attacked you and who did

22 this?

23 A. I can't say. I didn't see who fired at us. I didn't see

24 anything. All I know is that once they had brought in the massacred

25 people, Dzafer Heric said that Ikanovic had said that he knew nothing

Page 12119

1 about the case and that it was the doing of Boro Radic and Ratko Hadzic.

2 Q. Witness --

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to show everyone here

4 65 ter 30836, please. With all the reservations we have concerning the

5 intercepts, let us see what is it that Momcilo Krajisnik and his brother

6 discussed on the 15th. I regret that you don't have the document there.

7 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The witness is -- the Sarajevo

8 office does not have this document.

9 THE REGISTRAR [via videolink]: We do not have the document,

10 Your Honour.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You don't have it, all right. Can

12 you see what's on e-court?

13 JUDGE KWON: Before --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I read it out?

15 JUDGE KWON: Before putting the question, if you could tell the

16 witness the nature of this document.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Witness, I have in my hands here, in hard copy, and we also have

19 it on our screens, the intercept of a conversation which took place on

20 the 15th of June, 1992, and it is a conversation between

21 Momcilo Krajisnik and his brother Mirko Krajisnik. Krajisnik Momcilo is

22 at Pale in the assembly, whereas Mirko Krajisnik is in Rajlovac in his

23 village of Zabrdje.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will skip the first two pages in

25 the Serbian -- rather, three pages in the Serbian version, and then we

Page 12120

1 will go straight to page 0736, which is page 6 in this document in

2 Serbian.

3 Could we find the corresponding page in English, please?

4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. And for you, sir, I will be reading this out in the drama style,

6 theatre drama style.

7 Mirko says: "What is it?"

8 Momcilo says: "Well, running around all day."

9 Mirko cursing devil and saying, "I heard that the Muslims who

10 were running away from Misoca killed a full bus of Serbs in Srednje,

11 Misoca was being cleansed."

12 Momcilo: "Yeah?"

13 Mirko: "So Muslims killed a full bus of Serbs," and then Mirko

14 says, "who were on their way to Pale as refugees. Just a little while

15 ago, they told me that this wasn't the case but that, in fact, they took

16 these prisoners with them. Actually an old sergeant who does exchanges

17 up there received a phone call from the city, can you hear me?" And so

18 on.

19 And then the following page in Serbian, Krajisnik says:

20 "So they called them from the city. Alispahic, what was his

21 name, and he said those prisoners had been killed.

22 Momcilo: "What prisoners?"

23 Mirko: "They took the prisoners to Pale again."

24 Momcilo: "Uh-huh."

25 Mirko: "And then at Srednje, they were intercepted by Muslims

Page 12121

1 who killed all those prisoners. Our two men were heavily wounded."

2 Momcilo: "They thought those were our people."

3 Mirko: "They thought those were our people too.

4 Momcilo: "Yeah."

5 Mirko: "And tonight they want to retaliate against all Serbs in

6 the city and in prison."

7 Momcilo -- or rather, Mirko says:

8 "And allegedly, they will use their cut-throats to attack

9 Rajlovac in groups and all kinds of things like that."

10 Do you see, Witness, that this first explosion is a completely

11 illogical attack on the bus, as a result of which two Serbs were wounded

12 too?

13 A. I don't know about that. I know how long they fired for, how

14 long they fired on the bus. I know what they used to fire. What do you

15 think, that two, three lengths of ammunition belts for machine-guns were

16 enough, the so-called Gorenje. They fired over 1.000 bullets, and we saw

17 casings that had been brought from up there. How did they end up being

18 there? They didn't just fall from the sky. Then we saw all those

19 casings of zoljas and other ammunition used from rocket launchers. I saw

20 them as they fired at the bus.

21 Q. Sir, I'm not challenging that. I'm asking you only: Was it only

22 the Serbs who had rocket launchers, bombs and zoljas, or did Muslims have

23 them too?

24 A. I don't care who had what. What I know is that genocide was

25 perpetrated, a massacre, a completely incomprehensible killing of people,

Page 12122

1 helpless people.

2 And let me just tell you that the day before, on the 13th, when

3 women, children and men were exchanged at a petrol station, in Boric --

4 in Bozic they then put us into refrigerated trucks and they drove us

5 along the same road. They only opened the door when we reached Sokolac.

6 Some people suffocated on the trucks. They urinated there. They fainted

7 there. They drove us up there to Rogatica, and to Koran, where I used to

8 serve as a reserve soldier of the former JNA, and then they took us back

9 to Pale, to the old boy scout centre in front of the Panorama Hotel, and

10 I know it from my time as a boy scout. And then they let us get off the

11 refrigerator trucks. I met then somebody called Sasa, who used to serve

12 in the army with me.

13 Q. Thank you. It would be nice to hear all that if we had time but

14 let us go back to our topic. What you described was much before the

15 event with the bus. Now that you have mentioned the exchanged -- the

16 exchange which took place at the Bozic petrol station, let me tell you

17 what happened. The Bozic petrol station is between Rajlovac and the

18 city, and this is where women, children and the elderly from Ahatovici

19 were exchanged -- rather, they were allowed to enter the city of

20 Sarajevo. Was that the exchange?

21 A. Yes, that was the exchange. However, those of us who had been

22 kept in the smaller cistern were boarded on the refrigerator trucks, and

23 Mile Stojanovic told us that we were going to be exchanged at

24 Kobilja Glava. However, they took us all the way to Rogatica, and then

25 again, in the evening hours, they took us back to fuel cisterns. There

Page 12123

1 were no longer any women, children, or the elderly there. In my view,

2 they did it in order to hide us, to conceal us from UNPROFOR so that

3 UNPROFOR wouldn't find us there.

4 Q. All right. So was that an exchange? Did any Serb civilians

5 leave Sarajevo on that occasion? Or perhaps it wasn't an exchange, was

6 it simply the case that the women, children and the elderly from

7 Ahatovici were allowed to enter Sarajevo?

8 A. It was an exchange.

9 Q. And who left Sarajevo as part of that exchange?

10 A. From Sarajevo, I have no idea.

11 Q. Did some civilians come from the Muslim part to the Serbian part

12 of Sarajevo, or was it only the case that the Muslim women, children and

13 the elderly were allowed to enter Sarajevo?

14 A. I don't know that either.

15 Q. All right. Thank you. So we've concluded with that. That was

16 on the 15th. We don't know whether it was an exchange or simply women,

17 children and the elderly from Ahatovici were allowed to enter Sarajevo,

18 right?

19 A. Yes, right.

20 Q. Now, as for the able-bodied residents or, rather, prisoners, they

21 were transported on the following day to the place where this happened?

22 A. Yes. When we returned in the evening, let me tell you, the Serb

23 guards who were there, even they were surprised to see us back. They

24 were surprised that we had been brought back. We spent that night,

25 nobody slept during the night. In the morning they brought some awful

Page 12124

1 food, just salted water. I ate bread that was all covered in mildew.

2 Q. I understand you, I understand you but we have to go on.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 30839, 65 ter, please?

4 Another intercept intercepted by the Muslim state security. Could we see

5 it in e-court, please? I will tell you what this is about. This is a

6 conversation where Camil calls Mirko Krajisnik and then they have a

7 conversation. So:

8 "Hello, Mirko, Camil here," and so on.

9 Could we see the next two pages in Serbian, please?

10 Camil says: "Well, let me tell you," he curses a relative, and

11 he says, Well, let's see if we can find something equivalent."

12 And then Camil says: "Edin Brajlovic seems to be here in the

13 Rajlovac barracks."

14 And then Mirko says: "Edin Brajlovic."

15 And then Camil says: "Yes, from Ahatovici."

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did you know this Edin Brajlovic from Ahatovici?

18 A. Zuti took Edin Brajlovic in the van and he was never seen again.

19 I also know Zijo Brajlovic. It was a family there.

20 Q. Very well. Very well. Thank you.

21 A. There is a witness who is their relative and who says that

22 Edin Brajlovic was killed, and that he was found in some grave and then

23 later buried.

24 Q. Thank you. So we see that Camil is searching for Edin Brajlovic,

25 and then Camil says: "Is he there at Rajlovac?"

Page 12125

1 And then the other man says: "No, there is nobody here."

2 And then Camil says: "So there is nobody there, so that means

3 that we had a wrong piece of information."

4 And then Mirko says: "No, for sure, believe me."

5 And just to tell you this conversation took place on the

6 20th of June.

7 And then Camil says: "Somebody told me, somebody called me."

8 And then Mirko says: "No, everything -- everybody who was here

9 was exchanged. You know, 284."

10 Camil says: "Yes."

11 And then Mirko says: "I think that about 50 of them were

12 released beyond all requests or outside of all requests," and so on.

13 "The Gacanovics and the Martinovics and the rest were sent to Pale, part

14 of the people, as you know, got killed," and then they continue talking.

15 And he says: "Parts of the people went up to the central for

16 exchange," and he says, "as a matter of fact, they are going somewhere to

17 Sokolac?"

18 So on the 20th of June, they mentioned this exchange, 284 were

19 exchanged, 50 were released to go home, then Gacanovics and Martinovics

20 are mentioned, and then Mirko says: "You heard some of them got killed."

21 Obviously he's referring to the bus.

22 Sir, Witness, can we agree that first there was a detonation

23 which made all the glass on the bus shatter, right?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Do you still believe that the Serbs would destroy their own bus

Page 12126

1 if they wanted to kill somebody? Wasn't it easier to take that person

2 out and execute?

3 A. Listen, that was not a Serbian bus. That was a city transport

4 bus that had been confiscated by them. It was not an army vehicle. It

5 was a state ownership.

6 Q. At the time of Republika Srpska?

7 A. Yes, but that was a city transport bus that had been confiscated.

8 We were loaded onto this bus with the intention of killing us, as was

9 done.

10 Q. Witness, a little patience, please.

11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted

12 into evidence, the first and the second ones, but, of course, with all

13 the reservations that we have, and could it be marked for identification?

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor.

15 MR. GAYNOR: I think it's fair to press Mr. Karadzic right now as

16 to whether he accepts these an authentic intercepts or not. And if he

17 does not accept that they are authentic intercepts, on what basis is he

18 tendering them?

19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Having issued the decision on intercepts,

20 I think it's about time to hear the parties' argument and deal with it.

21 But before we do that, can you answer the point raised by Mr. Gaynor,

22 Mr. Karadzic, as to the authenticity of these documents you are

23 tendering? Mr. Robinson?

24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. If I could just answer the

25 point with respect to intercepts. Our position is that with respect to

Page 12127

1 intercepts, we put the Prosecution to its proof to prove the reliability

2 of any and all of the intercepts. However, because the Chamber has

3 decided to allow them to do that at the end of their case or later on in

4 their case, we don't want to be disadvantaged by not using those

5 intercepts that would be useful to our case, in the event that the

6 Chamber finds that the intercept procedures were reliable and they are

7 admitted. So that's the basis on which we are proceeding. So our

8 position is that it's up to the Prosecution to establish the reliability

9 of intercepts in general, and if they do that, then our intercepts should

10 be admitted as well as theirs. And we still have -- reserve the issue of

11 the pre-war intercepts, which you've already ruled on.

12 JUDGE KWON: Is it not that you are having it both ways, you are

13 tendering them.

14 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we are having it both ways, exactly, because

15 we are taking the position that the Prosecution has the burden of proving

16 that the intercepts are reliable and so we don't want to waive that

17 issue. But in the event that you find them reliable, then he we also

18 will want -- we wouldn't want to be deprived of having the ability to use

19 intercepts to our advantage, so we are having it both ways in that sense,

20 but I don't see anything wrong with that. It's not our job to prove that

21 these intercepts are reliable or unreliable. That's the burden of the

22 Prosecution.

23 JUDGE KWON: We will not spend too much time on this today. So

24 what if we find those tendered by the Prosecution reliable and then you

25 did nothing about the intercept you tendered.

Page 12128

1 MR. ROBINSON: Well, when we hear the testimony of the Bosnian

2 officials who intercepted these conversations, I think that that

3 testimony will apply to our intercepts as well.

4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We will mark these two intercepts for

5 identification following our practice.

6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits D1088 and D1089, marked for

7 identification, Your Honours.

8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. It's time to have a break. We will

9 break for 15 minutes this time. We will resume at 10 to 2.00.

10 --- Recess taken at 1.34 p.m.

11 --- On resuming at 1.53 p.m.

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, for your re-examination, five minutes would be

13 sufficient, Mr. Gaynor?

14 MR. GAYNOR: It would indeed. Thank you, Mr. President.

15 JUDGE KWON: If you could conclude by 25 past. If you could

16 conclude by 2.25. You have about half an hour.

17 THE ACCUSED: I do intend to conclude much earlier.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Witness, I'm not going to go into any other details and minutiae.

21 On page 11, you said today that a man called Enver Celik had maltreated

22 somebody's sister and that these men took him out, hanged him and beat

23 him up for that; is that correct?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Is it true that you never mentioned the fact that he had been

Page 12129

1 hanged? How come?

2 A. I did mention that. I don't know how this was not recorded. I'm

3 sorry, I have a document here with me compiled after the massacre, when

4 I was doing the identification of the bodies, and it is written here,

5 Hajro Delic and Enver Celik were murdered at the camp.

6 Q. Please, was it really possible for someone to do something bad in

7 the past and then someone comes to take him out, beat him up and

8 eventually kill him?

9 A. Listen, I can't tell you that. I know that Enver Celik and the

10 late Esad Celik, his brother, and they had a third brother as well, whose

11 name I don't know, they were - how shall I put it? - they liked to enter

12 into brawls and fights. They had tattoos. So he recognised this man as

13 the one who abused his sister according to the tattoo that he had, and

14 these followers of his took him out because of that. And you know how --

15 this structure for loading such big cistern that has the capacity of

16 8.000 tonnes, so they hanged him on that structure and they beat him and

17 they broke his spine.

18 Q. So if we take all this into consideration, if it hadn't been for

19 the guards, these incidents would have happened more often; is that

20 right?

21 A. Look, I'm not going to mention the name, but there was a guard

22 whom I knew very well. We used to meet each other in a restaurant and

23 treat each other with drinks, so when he was on duty in the evening, he

24 would bring me bread and the packet of cigarettes. And he would tell me,

25 Just go back there into the dark, so that no one would see this.