1 Wednesday, 2 March 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Mr. Tieger.
6 MR. TIEGER: Good morning, Mr. President. Sorry to commence with
7 something as mundane as scheduling concerns but I thought it best to
8 raise them now. I had discussed them briefly with Mr. Robinson earlier.
9 So, a few matters arise that I wanted to bring to the Court's attention,
10 and hopefully with some anticipation, we might be able to resolve them.
11 First of all, the Court will recall perhaps that the testimony of
12 Mr. Banbury was rescheduled from commencing on 14th to 15th and
13 discussions about his interview by the accused also took place with the
14 Defence and while -- and now on the basis of the understanding that we
15 would not be sitting on the 14th, which was the reason for moving him to
16 the 15th, in the first place. Now I understand we are scheduled for
17 the -- to have court on the 14th. I would --
18 JUDGE KWON: No. Are we scheduled to sit on 14th?
19 MR. TIEGER: That's what I understood from the Registry
21 JUDGE KWON: It is so scheduled, but the Chamber is not in the
22 position to sit on the 14th. That's why I -- probably that message has
23 not been -- has not been conveyed clearly to the Registry.
24 MR. TIEGER: I see, Mr. President. Well, that certainly obviates
25 one problem so I'm pleased that we raised it. In a related matter, we
1 are trying to project out the appearances of witnesses for a number of
2 reasons, one of which is whether or not we would come to the commencement
3 of proceedings and have witnesses left who didn't testify. I discussed
4 that with Mr. Robinson as well. Another is whether or not witnesses
5 would have to give way for long periods to fixed witnesses. So in that
6 regard I would ask two things. Number 1, if the Court would be in a
7 position to provide the cross-examination estimates for KDZ182 and
8 Mr. Banbury at the earliest opportunity; and number 2, if there was the
9 possibility of exploring whether or not some extended sessions could be
10 held perhaps tomorrow and/or Tuesday of next week, and that might
11 eliminate the risk of one of the witnesses being here for quite an
12 extended time waiting while fixed witnesses take the stand.
13 Thank you, Mr. President.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber will consider the matters.
15 Unless there are other matters to be raised, we will bring in the
16 witness, Mr. Muracevic.
17 [The witness entered court]
18 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE KWON: No problem. Yes, Mr. Tieger?
20 MR. TIEGER: One additional inquiry, the current court calendar,
21 as you noted, erroneously has us sitting on the 14th but it also notes
22 that we are not sitting on the 18th, and I didn't know if the Court --
23 JUDGE KWON: We will move Tuesday to Friday.
24 Good morning, Mr. Muracevic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, time is precious, Mr. Karadzic. Please
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning to
4 everyone. Good morning, Excellency Lattanzi. I am glad to see you back.
5 That means that you have recovered.
6 WITNESS: ESET MURACEVIC (Resumed]
7 [Witness answered through interpreter]
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
9 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Muracevic, how are you?
10 A. I'm very well, Mr. Karadzic.
11 Q. Yesterday, we went a little bit forward with respect to the
12 events. Therefore let's go back in time. A critical time in Svrake.
13 And up until the 2nd of May, you practically had no war. There was only
14 tension and mutual mistrust; is that correct?
15 A. One could say that. Concerning the departure of Serbs from our
16 village, it wasn't related only to the need to have peaceful nights
17 outside our village, but overnight there was shooting from the places
18 where they went, from automatic weapons, and that caused anxiety in the
19 village where I was living.
20 Q. Was fire opened at your village, Mr. Muracevic, or was that just
21 the shooting into the air?
22 A. There was some shooting into the air but at times a stray bullet
23 would reach our village as well.
24 Q. Was anyone hurt?
25 A. No. Not in those shootings prior to the 2nd of May.
1 Q. Thank you. Now let us be accurate. I put it to you that that
2 many Serbs, 170 of them, in the midst of 1080 Muslims needed to go to
3 other villages to spend nights in uncomfortable conditions because they
4 were afraid and they were frightened of your guards, not in order to
5 shoot at your village.
6 A. That's not correct, Mr. Karadzic. People from our village, who
7 lived in the centre part of the village, had their houses on the edges of
8 the village. Therefore, they did not sleep in uncomfortable conditions.
9 They slept in their own houses, because many of them, on the slopes of
10 the Paljevo hill, had built houses later in the centre of the village,
11 such as the Cetkovic family.
12 Q. Thank you. Were you closely connected and did you have close
13 cooperation with your police station?
14 A. Since our police station had a branch office, so to speak, in our
15 local commune, we can say that we were keeping close relationship because
16 part of the police force from Vogosca was deployed in my local commune,
17 and I'm talking about the part of the reserve police force, that they
18 were in charge of.
19 Q. Thank you. I am making a pause, and you should know why I'm
20 doing that, and please also pause before answering.
21 These two telegrams of the 12th and the 29th of April, did they
22 contain information about the attack on the JNA?
23 A. I may have -- need to look at these telegrams but I don't think
24 that anyone from the police notified me of that.
25 Q. Well, we saw this document yesterday but we can look at it again.
1 I think it's -- but let me check the number of the document.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could D400 be shown to the witness
3 in order to refresh his memory?
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. That's the second one, immediately prior to your crisis. D400.
6 A. I don't have it on my screen.
7 Q. Press e-court.
8 A. I didn't have an opportunity to see this document before the
9 conflict broke out in my village. As I said yesterday, I saw this
10 document for the first time here in this courtroom.
11 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at the date, which is the
12 29th of April? And it says to the Security Services Centres, all of
13 them, SJB, all of them, and secretary of the Sarajevo SUP, and then it
14 says, "Order on the implementation of the decision of the Presidency of
15 the Republic BH," and then this is followed by the number of the order.
16 And it says, "On the 27th of April, the decision was made," and then,
17 under number 1:
18 "It is ordered to carry out the full and massive blockade of all
19 road intersections on the territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
20 on which the units of the former JNA are beginning to withdraw technical
21 and material assets and do that in coordination with the MUP. Carry out
22 the blockade of the wider region of military facilities from which
23 technical and material assets are attempted to be taken out of with
24 various methods of formational and natural barriers which should be
25 secured for the units of the Territorial Defence of the Republic of BH.
1 Unannounced convoys of units of the former JNA and those that are not
2 escorted by the MUP should be prevented from leaving the barracks and
3 communicating on the territory of the Republic of BH. Immediately begin
4 preparing and initiating battle activities on the entire territory of the
5 Republic of BH and coordinate them with the headquarters of the
6 Territorial Defence of the region, district or Republic of BH. Within
7 the scope of battle activities, plan all encompassing measures of
8 protecting the population, the material assets of the citizens of the
9 Republic of BH. Minister of the Interior, Alija Delimustafic."
10 Therefore there is no doubt that your police station had received
11 this. Why didn't they inform you about these preparations for war
12 operations against the JNA?
13 A. There were elements of the police in my village, so I can tell
14 you with full responsibility, and I said that yesterday as well, I saw
15 this document for the first time yesterday. Before the conflict broke
16 out in my local commune, nobody told me about the content of this
18 Q. Well, I'd like to believe you but do you think that it would be
19 appropriate for the secretary of the local commune to be notified about
20 what was being prepared at the Semizovac barracks?
21 A. There were some police actions regarding the barracks in
22 Semizovac, but there was no need, actually, for that because the army had
23 already distributed the weapons from Semizovac to the local Serbs a long
24 time before that. Nobody informed me about this but they should have
25 done that, and as I said yesterday, I knew nothing about this document,
1 and I saw it for the first time here in the courtroom. But I didn't know
2 about this document, nor did anyone inform me about the content of this
3 document before yesterday.
4 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that in testimony of yours, which is in
5 document 1D3349, in your testimony in the case versus Dragan Damjanovic,
6 before the state court of Bosnia-Herzegovina, when asked whether you
7 attacked by the JNA, you said, "No, it was done by our Serb neighbours
8 who were stationed within the JNA facilities."
9 Let me ask you this for starters: Do you agree that the
10 Slovenes, the Croats, the Muslims, failed to respond to the call-up of
11 the reserve forces of the JNA?
12 A. I know that some of them didn't. However, as far as the
13 activities of the local Serbs and the JNA is concerned with relation to
14 the Semizovac barracks, I can state with full responsibility that the
15 local Serbs enjoyed tremendous support by the JNA stationed at the
16 Semizovac barracks, which, until 1991, until the conflict broke out, was
17 gradually coming under the control of the Serbian authorities. So in a
18 way, the Semizovac barracks served as a kind of compound where weapons
19 were being distributed, where local Serbs were trained in handling the
20 weapons, and also when all these barricades were erected, it provided a
21 significant logistical support to the local Serbs by placing all the JNA
22 assets in the Semizovac barracks at their disposal. So the local Serbs
23 and members of the JNA who were at the Semizovac barracks acted in
24 concert against my village.
25 Q. Let's turn this a little bit upside down. I put it to you not
1 that the local Serbs had the support of the local Serbs but that it was
2 vice versa and that it was only the local Serbs who responded to the
3 call-up, but the Muslims and the Croats didn't.
4 A. I cannot confirm that because I was not part of the JNA
5 structure. I had no opportunity to see what was the rate of response to
6 the mobilisation. What I'm telling you is based on my own experience as
7 the secretary of the local commune because my local commune had an
8 excellent cooperation with Pero Crnogorac, the commander of the barracks,
9 and the barracks itself, in terms of cultural cooperation and every other
10 cooperation, and also previously through TO units that were joint, and we
11 always had understanding on the part of the Semizovac barracks before the
12 war. Therefore, there was no need for the people at the barracks to be
13 frightened of the villagers of Svrake because, for years before that, the
14 population did not show in any way whatsoever that they were bent on
15 threatening the safety and security of the soldiers. After all, the JNA
16 was the army of our common country and state, and we considered it to be
17 our army as well.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that until the 2nd of May, 1992, the JNA
19 had already had bloody and terrifying experiences with their barracks in
20 Slovenia and Croatia, where they were under blockade, where soldiers were
21 killed, where they had electricity, water and telephone lines cut off,
22 that it had been humiliated and that as a whole it was under the threat
23 posed by the local population in those republics?
24 A. From the media, I know what was going on, but the Semizovac
25 barracks did not face these problems. As a commander of the barracks, he
1 was my friend. Dobrica Stojanovic was also there. We were good friends.
2 And as secretary of the local commune and representatives of my local
3 commune and representatives of the executive branch in those times when
4 these events were taking place in Slovenia and Croatia, we went to the
5 barracks to pay them visits, to exchange experiences, to discuss the
6 shooting that was happening overnight around our villages, and we asked
7 the JNA to help us calm down the situation and try to reduce the level of
8 the shooting that was present at the time. In other words, there was no
9 fear that the local Muslims in my local communes would threaten the
10 safety and security of the JNA barracks in Semizovac in any way
11 whatsoever, and their commander Pero Crnogorac and other associates of
12 his, on the other hand, never warned us, as something that might due to
13 our conduct jeopardise their safety.
14 Q. Can we please focus on your answers because I don't think that
15 you would like to stay here tomorrow as well, but nevertheless, we would
16 like to hear everything that you wish to say. Now, if I put it to you
17 that the Semizovac barracks --
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: The previous question put by Mr. Karadzic to the
20 witness was about Slovenia and Croatia and I was about to rise and ask
21 him what the relevance of that question was in any event. And now he's
22 telling the witness to focus when, in fact, he was the one that put the
23 question. And the witness actually brought it back to his commune.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. If I may just say that the relevance is in the fact that the army
3 already had such experiences and they had reasons to be afraid, and since
4 they intercepted these two telegrams, and I had them on my desk on the
5 same day the Muslims sent me those telegrams, so they also knew about
6 them. So if I were to ask you, Mr. Muracevic, if you agreed that the
7 Semizovac barracks was mostly for the warehousing of ammunition and fuel
8 for the JNA, would you say "yes" or "no"?
9 A. I think that the JNA barracks in Semizovac and the one in Misoca
10 was one of the barracks used to store fuel, lubricants and so on. So it
11 was more of a depot, yes.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D3349? I don't
14 see -- I don't see it. I don't see it on the screen.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. This is a transcript from your testimony in the Damjanovic case.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry to interrupt again, Your Honour, this
18 is actually a summary of the witness's testimony. Mr. Karadzic has the
19 witness's full testimony at 1D03350, so I think it's better to take the
20 witness to his actual testimony and not a summary of his testimony.
21 JUDGE KWON: Summary of his transcript or the excerpt?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry. The document Mr. Karadzic is taking the
23 witness to now is a summary of the transcript of his evidence, but we do
24 have the witness's actual evidence at 1D03350, and I think if
25 Mr. Karadzic is going to put any questions to the witness, he should put
1 his actual testimony to him and not the summary of the transcript of the
3 JUDGE KWON: I tend to agree with Ms. Sutherland's observation.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Can we then get that
6 JUDGE KWON: Next -- just next 65 ter number. 1D3350. You have
7 it in your list.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. It's there but in order
9 to save time, it would have been easier for me.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Is it correct that in response to the question that -- were you
12 attacked by the JNA, you replied at these proceedings, during the
13 cross-examination, your reply to lawyer Stojanovic, that it was not the
14 JNA but that it was the neighbours, the local Serbs; is that correct?
15 A. We were attacked in coordination by local Serbs and the members
16 of the Yugoslav People's Army who were there because the local Serbs
17 were -- a large number of them were billeted at the Semizovac barracks
18 any way. So in a way when I say "the local Serbs" that already would
19 imply that it was the local Serbs who had been well instructed by that
20 time and already billeted at the barracks in Semizovac. So in some way
21 the attack of the local Serbs on my village was in full coordination with
22 the equipment and materiel located at the Semizovac barracks. Fire was
23 opened from Semizovac itself and also from the actual facility of the
25 Q. But you still said it wasn't the JNA but it was the Serb
1 neighbours. I kindly ask for a little bit of patience. I thought that
2 this summary would help to us work more quickly. Now we are going to get
3 the right page.
4 It's page 33 in the Serbian. Up there, your answers at the top:
5 "Stojanovic, no, not the JNA but our neighbours, the Serbs from
6 Semizovac, Krivoglavci, and the inhabitant Serbs from Svrake, meaning
7 that they used the capacities of the former Yugoslav People's Army,
8 specifically the barracks in Semizovac, which up until then was a
9 barracks of the Yugoslav People's Army, even the air force?"
10 Were the peasants from Krivoglavci and Semizovac have aviation
11 [as interpreted]?
12 A. As for the villages, the peasants, did they have the aviation,
13 you may say that they didn't but a member of the Serbian ethnic group
14 from my village was a pilot from the Yugoslav People's Army, and during
15 the attack, the air force of the JNA was used on my village and,
16 specifically, a number of buildings were damaged in the bombardment and
17 some of the air bombs that were dropped on my village did not activate.
18 And then later, the local Serbs, when the village fell, took some of
19 those unexploded air bombs and took them to certain housing facilities,
20 public and private ones, and blew up those buildings. Specifically in
21 that way they knocked down my home, the local mosque in Svrake and they
22 also blew up a commercial building in another local commune. Part of
23 this testimony from this court does say that we were attacked by the
24 local Serbs who, to their full capacity, used all that the JNA had at its
25 disposal in the Semizovac barracks.
1 Q. Can we agree on something, please? Can we make it a little bit
2 more succinct? Mr. Muracevic, did you know that pilot from your village?
3 A. Yes, I did. His name was Predrag Cetkovic.
4 Q. Was he deployed in Sarajevo?
5 A. I don't know where he was deployed, but before the conflict broke
6 out, I had the opportunity to see him once when he landed in a helicopter
7 at the local stadium in my local commune. I had the opportunity then to
8 see him myself as he was getting out of the helicopter. He wasn't
9 operating an aeroplane at the time but he had at that time come to visit
10 his house.
11 Q. All right. Thank you. But you don't know whether he took part
12 in this action or not?
13 A. Well, I can't confirm that. From the ground you cannot see who
14 is piloting the airplanes, and it wasn't just one plane in the action but
15 several. So if he was one of the pilots, this is something that
16 I couldn't have seen.
17 Q. So let's clarify this, then. Was this action by the air force
18 the action by the JNA or some private action of one of your neighbours?
19 A. Until the air force began to operate, actually I'm not aware that
20 any private individual had a war plane that was part of the JNA
21 formations in his own private possession. Several aeroplanes that bombed
22 my village, though, were planes of the Yugoslav People's Army. They were
23 part of their arsenal. I'm not aware that any individual could have had
24 such a type of combat plane in their personal possession.
25 Q. Thank you. Is it true that the mosque was damaged in a
1 subsequent action by an unexploded bomb or was it hit by an aeroplane?
2 A. The mosque in Svrake was significantly damaged after an air bomb
3 that had not exploded was activated.
4 Q. All right. Thank you. So it wasn't struck by an air bomb, was
6 A. Well, you understand, the minaret of that mosque was not
7 destroyed during that attack on our village but it was destroyed later
8 when an unexploded air bomb was detonated.
9 Q. Can you tell me how many people were killed in that action, from
10 the 2nd to the 4th of May?
11 A. One person was killed and four people were wounded in my
13 Q. In the amalgamated statement, paragraph -- let me just tell you
14 which one, you say that a number of people were killed. Why do your more
15 recent statements paint the Serbs in a worse light?
16 A. Can you please show me that statement? As far as I know,
17 I always said that one person was killed and four were wounded. Perhaps
18 this was something to the effect that several people were hurt.
19 Q. Can we look at paragraph 13 of your amalgamated statement now,
20 please? Here it says:
21 "[In English] People were wounded and killed. [Interpretation]
22 One person was killed and the second one killed themselves?"
23 Well, it arises from this that people were wounded and killed.
24 How is it that you increase the number in this general formulation when
25 one person was killed?
1 A. Mr. Karadzic, you're evidently either not reading what I said.
2 One person was killed and that means that one person was killed in that
3 period. At that point in time, it wasn't possible to determine whether
4 that person was killed from a self-inflicted wound or from fire from
5 somebody else. So one person was killed, four people were wounded. In
6 the statement at the time, we couldn't pinpoint whether that person was
7 killed by fire from the Serbs or as a result of a self-inflicted wound.
8 So one person was killed, four were wounded. There are no two persons
10 Q. Here it says people were wounded and killed. Can you please tell
11 us how that one person was killed?
12 A. I wasn't there when the person was hurt, but the person had a
13 wound. I was able to get to that person, to their house, and I could see
14 a specific wound in the chest. Since, in the action on my village,
15 different kinds of ammunition were used, fragmentation ammunition and
16 dumdum bullets, I couldn't really tell whether the person was really hit
17 by fire from local Serbs or perhaps by a weapon that that person happened
18 to have on them. So in the statement it is not precisely stated whether
19 the person was killed as a result of fire from Serbs or as a result of
20 self-wounding. I wasn't able to establish how the person died.
21 Q. Mr. Muracevic, believe me, all of that can be said much, much
22 more briefly.
23 A. Well, that's up to you, Mr. Karadzic.
24 Q. All right. So you say that at that point in time, you didn't
25 know whether the person was killed by their own device or they were hit
1 by some Serbs. Did you know that when you gave the consolidated
2 statement? Was it clarified that that person died from a wound inflicted
3 from their own home-made pistol?
4 A. We were able to see that later. When the person was actually
5 killed, no criminal investigation was carried out to establish the cause
6 of death. The body was there unburied for days and then, after a few
7 days, it was buried at the local cemetery.
8 Q. All right. All right. I didn't ask you where and when the
9 person was buried. Can we please look at 3354? Is your memory better
10 today than it was in 1992?
11 A. Well, as for my specific recollection of this particular event,
12 I couldn't establish whether the person was killed by Serb soldiers or by
13 a self-inflicted wound from the weapon that he had on him. I stuck more
14 by the option that he was probably killed from a self-inflicted wound,
15 and that was the context even though there was no particular
16 investigation. This was more a matter of my personal conviction than an
17 actual --
18 Q. Thank you, thank you. Sir, you escaped on the 5th of December,
19 and then on the 6th, you provided your first statement, "yes" or "no"?
20 We can go with a "yes" or "no" here, please.
21 A. Yes, 6th of December.
22 Q. Can we now look at page 3 of this statement of yours?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We are looking at page 1 but can we
24 look at page 3 in the Serbian? I believe that it's probably page 3 in
25 the English as well. Can we please look at the first paragraph of page 3
1 of this statement? Let me just find it.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the statement, I stuck to the
3 option that the person was killed from a self-inflicted wound because the
4 person had an improvised device on them which could have caused the
5 wound. So in that context, I stayed by the option that it was actually
6 self wounding and not perhaps a shot fired by the local Serbs.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Well, let's see what you say in the beginning. You say:
9 "I went towards the bus station in Vogosca where I managed to get
10 to Semizovac in a bus of Centrotrans, by hiding myself, where I increased
11 the combat readiness of the TO units and the reserve police, and called
12 on the population to undertake maximum measures of caution and use of
13 shelters" and so on and so forth.
14 So you managed to raise the combat readiness of the units. Why
15 did you do that, Mr. Muracevic?
16 A. From what you read, you can see why. Had I not done that, had
17 I not taken the inhabitants to a safe place, I assumed that there would
18 have been many more casualties in my village than there already were,
19 because for days before that you could hear the rattling of weapons
20 around our village, especially from early 1992. So in some way we were
21 constantly afraid of some possible attack occurring. An attack was even
22 attempted between the 3rd and 4th of April, 1992, because in the
23 Krivoglavci local community there was a --
24 Q. Thank you, thank you. Please believe me --
25 A. I'm sorry, but, Mr. Karadzic, Your Honours, if I can clarify --
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please, Mr. Muracevic.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For months before the attack on my
3 village, the neighbouring village and the local commune of Krivoglavci,
4 where the firing range of the JNA was, as well as of the TO and everybody
5 else, that's where they checked weapons. For days, on that firing range,
6 local Serbs, together with various volunteers who arrived from theatres
7 of war in Slovenia, Croatia, stayed there. One day, between the 3rd and
8 4th of April, 1992, from this road between Zenica, Sarajevo, where there
9 was a police station right by Krivoglavci, they tried to attack my
10 village from there. They even opened fire. But thanks to the night
11 guards we had, they didn't manage to enter the village. So in a way,
12 before the 2nd of May when my village was attacked, it had gone on for
13 months, gunfire provocations, everything that happened at the firing
14 range in Krivoglavci, all these people who we hadn't known before who
15 came to this firing range and who tested different weapons. We were
16 afraid, in a way, and we were waiting for something to happen to our
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Muracevic, as for these incidents and attacks against your
20 village before the 2nd of May, you never said a word of any of that in
21 your previous statements, right?
22 A. That's not right. Perhaps you did not have an opportunity to
23 read all the statements that are referred to in the footnotes. But when
24 we spoke about the Serb population getting out of our village and the
25 beginning of 1992, when in my statements I refer to armed Serb guards
1 around our village, also the trenches that were dug out around our
2 village, that in a way went without saying, what was possibly in the
3 making as far as my local commune was concerned.
4 Q. Sir, going without saying is not a fact. It is a fact that you
5 never stated that any Serb had attacked you before the 2nd of May. Do
6 show us a statement where you said that, or tell us of a criminal
7 complaint that was filed before that.
8 However, let's deal with this now. Sacir Fejzovic, you did know
9 that on the 6th of December, was killed as the result of a self-inflicted
10 wound, and when you were compiling your amalgamated statement you said
11 that people were wounded and killed. Tell us now, is that what you said
12 or did this sort of slip into your statement?
13 A. It didn't slip into my statement. It is a fact that
14 Sacir Fejzovic was killed during the attack on my village. Now, was this
15 deadly wound self-inflicted or was it inflicted by the Serbs, there is
16 nothing special in that respect. It is a fact that he lost his life in
17 that period.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, as Mr. Karadzic knows well, the
20 witness doesn't prepare the amalgamated witness statements, the Office of
21 the Prosecutor does based on all of the witness's prior testimony.
22 JUDGE KWON: But he read through --
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: He reviewed the --
24 JUDGE KWON: -- reviewed and confirmed --
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: He reviewed the amalgamated statement but he's
1 not the one that puts the amalgamated statement together, if I can put it
2 like that. And also, in relation to paragraph 9, if Mr. Karadzic reads
3 when he -- the witness actually does say that there was a lot of firing
4 and they sometimes turned the weapons on the Svrake village. So that
5 sort of information is contained already in the witness's statement, also
6 in relation to the sentence "People were wounded and killed," the
7 footnote to that specific sentence takes Mr. Karadzic to the witness's
8 prior statement where he says, four people were wounded and one was
9 killed. And that was a statement taken in 1996.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect to
11 Ms. Sutherland, we object to the amalgamated statements because they were
12 authored by the OTP. As we move on, they get worse and worse, as far as
13 the Serbs are concerned. And on the 6th of December, 1992, this witness
14 unequivocally stated that Sacir Fejzovic killed himself with this device
15 that he had made by himself. So as time goes by, and as the OTP creates
16 more and more of these statements, the Serbs look worse and worse.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: With respect to the amalgamated statements,
18 Your Honour, the OTP has been instructed by the Trial Chamber to prepare
19 an amalgamated witness statement or submit one testimony of a witness.
20 This witness has not testified previously before this Tribunal.
21 JUDGE KWON: Let us move on.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can we agree that the population had been warned by the JNA as
25 well to seek shelter and to take care of themselves because there would
1 be operations under way?
2 A. The population of Svrake had not been warned by the JNA that
3 there would be certain operations under way. That is to say that the
4 population of my village had not been informed by the JNA that there
5 would be certain operations under way.
6 Q. Then who spoke to the population through a loud speaker and
7 warned them to hand over their weapons, telling them that there would be
8 operations going on?
9 A. Well, it was done by the local Serbs. The local Serbs. They
10 used a loud speaker, issuing warnings. There were all sorts of threats
11 issued as well. At any rate, the local Serbs were calling upon people to
12 leave the village. In these threats they did not say that it would be
13 the JNA that would attack or whoever. They were just calling upon the
14 population to leave the village. And as for the people themselves, why
15 would they leave their homes of their own accord, just like that?
16 Q. Let us see that -- or, rather, let us see what you said in
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have that back? Can we have
19 the next page? Next one, please.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. You said that two of your representatives went to negotiate and
22 received guarantees that they could leave and they did leave with one
23 group, and another group was left behind and that group was taken to the
24 barracks, right?
25 A. We talked about that yesterday. It's not two groups. It is one
1 and the same group. The local Serbs and members of different armies cut
2 it off. There was just this one group, this one column, that was cut off
3 by the local Serbs, the army and all sorts of other formations that were
5 Q. All right. Yesterday we saw that that was not the case, that
6 they did not inform you and that you left in a great rush only after
7 them, and that that is why you were not included in this announcement
8 that pertained to the first group. So you were warned through
9 loudspeakers that the population could seek shelter while operations were
10 under way, right?
11 A. That is not right, Mr. Karadzic. Now you are misstating what we
12 discussed yesterday. We did not discuss that yesterday. These two
13 gentlemen who went to negotiate with the local Serbs, familiarised me
14 with the agreements that had been reached. However, the two of them did
15 not familiarise the entire village with that. However, I went, together
16 with my co-workers, to warn the rest of the people in the village about
17 this, and to tell them that we should leave the village in an organised
19 It is a fact that these two and part of the column left before
20 the set deadline. That is to say, before the entire village managed to
21 get together at this point of departure. So this column that they
22 started was one column. And it was just cut off, and part of that column
23 was taken to the Semizovac barracks. There was no mention whatsoever of
24 one column leaving and another one having who knows what happen to it.
25 It was the entire population of the village that was involved.
1 Q. Let us see what happened exactly in the barracks. There were
2 about 400 people there, right?
3 A. Roughly.
4 Q. The next day, after the night was spent within the barracks
5 compound, women, children, the elderly, civilians, were returned into the
7 A. I was among the first to be taken out of the barracks, and
8 I found out only a few days later that women and children were taken back
9 to the village and that men from the barracks in Semizovac were taken to
10 Naka's garage, close to the Vogosca flyover, and after that, they were
11 returned to Svrake, but they were supposed to report to Planjo's house.
12 Later on, it turned into everyday detention for them. 28 villagers from
13 my village were taken in an unknown direction, sometime in mid-June, from
14 that particular location, and to this day, no one knows what happened to
15 these 28 persons except for three of them whose mortal remains we found
16 after the war in the bed of the Bosna River near Visoko.
17 Q. Mr. Muracevic, that is part of one of my next questions. We'll
18 get to that. That is a very important thing. So were you with these
19 people who were in Naka's garage, and did you spend 33 days there, or
20 were you taken further immediately?
21 A. I was immediately taken to the bunker, but on one occasion they
22 took me from Naka's garage, where I spent one night, and almost half of
23 the next day. Actually, on one particular day, they took me from the
24 bunker to Naka's garage. I spent the night there. So I had the
25 opportunity of seeing that in this facility of Naka's garage, there were
1 150, or perhaps even more than 150, villagers from my village.
2 Q. Thank you. So nine of you were detained in the bunker. You
3 mention or you accepted that the Serbs knew what you had been doing.
4 Today we read that you were the person who raised combat readiness there.
5 Yesterday, we saw, from your very own words, that you smuggled a mortar
6 and mortar rounds. However, you said that among these nine, there were
7 some for whom you did not know why they had been detained in the bunker.
8 Are you trying to say that there was some personal revenge involved
9 there, because one of them was a teacher and then one of his students was
10 after him? Could you try to deal with this as briefly as possible? If
11 it wasn't the case of personal revenge in your personal case, because you
12 were involved in preparing the defence, what about all these other
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic puts about four or
15 five statements and then says try and deal with this as briefly as
16 possible and then goes on again. So he needs to put a question and get
17 an answer, and a question and answer.
18 JUDGE KWON: It's about time, Mr. Karadzic, to -- for your skills
19 to have improved. One by one, and be simple in putting questions. But
20 can you answer the question or shall I ask the accused to reformulate his
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, since Mr. Karadzic
23 said a few things that were untrue in relation to what I did, I wish to
24 say that I did not smuggle a mortar. We took it away from the local
25 Serbs at the check-point. How come they had it? I did not smuggle
1 anything. Smuggling means that you are buying and reselling things for
2 personal profit.
3 As for the specific question, whether there was any personal
4 revenge involved, in this group of nine men from Svrake, there weren't
5 any teachers who were there with me. Obviously the teacher that he is
6 actually referring to is the man who was brought in much later, not
7 together with these nine men from Svrake. But I would not say that it
8 was a question of personal revenge or anything like that. Quite simply,
9 it was something coordinated that was done by the local Serbs. For
10 instance, before my village was attacked, Jovan Tintor, as the leader of
11 the local organisation of the Serb Democratic Party and president of the
12 Crisis Staff, almost a day before my village was attacked issued an order
13 in relation to the Kontiki bed and breakfast, that is better known as
14 Kod Sonja. He declared it to be his staff. And that is what they had
15 intended to do, that they would bring certain people detained in there,
16 in the bunker, and it so happened that I was one of them.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Thank you, Witness. Let me tell you something. A moment ago
19 I recapitulated what you said yesterday, that, yes, you were smuggling,
20 but I mean it wasn't smuggling for the sake of selling something. You
21 managed to get a mortar into the town of Sarajevo through Serb lines,
22 surreptitiously and also a few mortar rounds.
23 And now you mentioned Jovan Tintor. Do you agree or should we
24 look for a document, that Jovan Tintor only had this building handed over
25 to the Ministry of Justice and that the prison was something that the
1 Ministry of Justice planned, not Jovan Tintor?
2 A. As for the facilities that were used for detaining the non-Serb
3 population, they could be subdivided, as it were. Jovan Tintor, as the
4 president of the local organisation of the SDS in Vogosca and president
5 of the Crisis Staff, did have influence over the local authorities, the
6 establishment of local authorities --
7 Q. Oh, please. This is a very restricted question. You mentioned
8 that Jovan Tintor decided to detain people and that he intended to use
9 Planjo's house for those purposes and that he designated it for that.
10 Jovan Tintor, as a local functionary, approved that it be handed over to
11 the Ministry of Justice. Was Planjo's house under the Ministry of
12 Justice, the department for sanctions, and for keeping captives and
14 A. Mr. Karadzic, you are constantly trying to put words in my mouth.
15 I said that by his order, Mr. Jovo Tintor placed Kontiki and the bunker
16 as the facilities for detention. As for Planjo's house, it had been a
17 detention facility throughout the whole period. I think that sometime in
18 mid-July 1992, the local authorities issued an order, and by this order,
19 it was placed at the disposal of the Ministry of the Interior. And even
20 before that order, Planjo's house was used to detain people from Svrake.
21 Q. Can we now look at 1D3351. On the 6th of December, it was quite
22 clear to you how Sacir was killed, and then on the 26th of December --
23 can we have the next page, it's 1D3351. This is your statement from
24 1992, can we look at page 3? The first complete sentence reads:
25 "As a result of this operation, Sacir Fejzovic was killed, son of
1 Smajo, and four people were wounded."
2 On the previous page it says that the JNA bombed Svrake with
3 two aircraft, and that Sacir Fejzovic was killed as a result. Only two
4 weeks later, you have completely twisted this whole story and attributed
5 this to the Serbs. Why did you you do that?
6 A. The fact is that Sacir Fejzovic was killed during these war
7 operations. In my previous statement I only clarified it to the effect
8 that I wasn't sure whether he was killed by a bullet from the Serbs or
9 whether he died of a self-inflicted wound. So I wasn't determining
10 anything. I just wanted to state the fact that one person was killed and
11 four were wounded. And I don't see anything that is in dispute here,
12 because there is a possibility here that this was a self-inflicted wound.
13 Q. But on this page, where Hajrudin Djulovic is mentioned and
14 Senad Kevla [phoen] reached an agreement but failed to inform the
15 population, but rather, on the 5th of May, people set off in a
16 disorganised way so that the enemy forces let a small portion of the
17 population to pass through. So we are finished with this.
18 Now, when you were in the bunker, are you talking about the
19 bunker next to Sonja's restaurant?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. Was this facility fenced?
22 A. Are you talking about the bunker itself or the entire facility of
23 Kontiki guest house?
24 Q. Where you stayed, were this whole compound secured by a fence?
25 A. On the side facing the local road, I think there was a -- there
1 was a hedge, and there were guards posted by the prison management. So
2 on the side facing the road that connected Semizovac and Vogosca was a
3 kind of hedge, maybe there was also a fence there, but I'm not quite
4 sure. It might have been concealed by this greenery. And there was a
5 gate leading into the compound, whereas on the other side, where the
6 railroad tracks were, there was no fence.
7 Q. So a hedge needs time to grow up; is that correct?
8 A. I suppose so. I don't know how it looked before.
9 Q. There was no wire fence, and when you went out you were not
10 confined in a wired area?
11 A. When we were going out from the bunker, there was no wired or
12 mesh fence, but the whole compound was fenced, or rather, restricted from
13 one side by the railroad and the other side by the hedge next to the
14 road. So that constituted a kind of physical barrier in which there was
15 a gate leading to the restaurant.
16 Q. Thank you. At one point in time, the Serbs brought mattresses
17 from the gym for you to sleep on them, and these became soaked later by
18 rain; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Is it correct that the inmates had been roasting lambs on stakes
21 whenever delegations came to visit them, for example, UNPROFOR?
22 A. The bunker inmates were taken out quite often to perform a kind
23 of -- all kinds of jobs, including roasting lambs when some celebrations
24 were held, and that included the visit by UNPROFOR.
25 JUDGE KWON: Please put a pause between the answer and your
1 question. You make the life of Judge Lattanzi, who has just recovered,
2 very difficult. The French interpreters are relying on the English
3 translation, so you have to further slow down. Let's proceed.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. One more reason for me
5 to make an effort.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Is it true that some detainees would go to the well to fetch
8 water and that they picked pears on the way?
9 A. It is a fact that some detainees were taken to the well which was
10 in close proximity to the Kontiki guest house. Now, whether they picked
11 pears on the way, I suppose they did.
12 Q. Were they being taken there or were they being sent to the well
13 to fetch the water?
14 A. They were taken from the bunker, but I don't know whether from
15 the Kontiki, they were let go to go there on their own. However, I saw
16 quite often that these detainees were accompanied by guards.
17 Q. But sometimes it happened that they had no escort but that you
18 were, rather, sent away to the well to bring water and that on the way
19 they would pick pears and bring them back; is that correct?
20 A. Look, yesterday you spoke about various interpretations and
21 translations. When we say that people were taken out of the bunker to
22 carry out jobs, including the fetching of water, I could not have known
23 whether they were taken from the Kontiki guest house and whether they
24 were escorted by the guards. But I think in most cases, they were
25 accompanied by the guards who were providing security for the Kontiki and
1 the detention facility as a whole.
2 Q. Did you tell your people, after you escaped, that you had seen
3 and identified General MacKenzie, when he came to visit?
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters didn't hear the name of the
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a statement given before
7 representatives of UNPROFOR or the international community, I explained
8 under which circumstances I saw General MacKenzie. However, after I left
9 prison, and in the context of the statements that I gave at the time,
10 I mentioned in passing visits paid by representatives of the
11 international community, specifically UNPROFOR. However, in it my
12 statements given in early 1993, I wasn't able to confirm that in the
13 context relating to the account of the visit of UNPROFOR to this
14 facility, that were given by some other detainees, or members of the
15 Serbian army, such as Borislav Herak and Sretko Damjanovic, as well as
16 some of the inmates of the bunker who had often been taken to do the
17 roasting of lambs, so in my statements given in early 1993, it was not
18 possible for me to confirm, based on their stories, the fact that I saw
19 UNPROFOR coming to the area. All I knew was what I heard from these
20 inmates who told me that they had come to that area.
21 Sometime towards the end of 1994, I subsequently recalled a
22 situation when a Serbian soldier whom I hadn't known before, because he
23 was not part of the security detail in the prison, who came to take me
24 out of the bunker and take me in an unknown direction. Because he was
25 treating me in that way, I had an opportunity to see in front of the very
1 restaurant certain UNPROFOR vehicles. I did not link this event at the
2 time with UNPROFOR visits to this location irrespective of the fact that,
3 for days before that, the prison management were speaking about a visit
4 by members -- representatives of the international community and
5 General MacKenzie. I just was aware of this kind of situation and
6 I heard guards saying that Mr. Tintor had appropriated or misappropriated
7 in a certain way a number of UNPROFOR vehicles. I thought that that was
8 the situation in which they would use one such vehicle to transport me to
9 Pale or somewhere else.
10 Now, in those circumstances, I noticed a number of people dressed
11 in UNPROFOR uniforms, and among them, I noticed an individual about whom
12 I was not aware at the time that that was General MacKenzie. I learned
13 that only much later when I saw on TV. It reminded me that it was
14 possible that general himself was there in the area.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. I will kindly have to ask the Chamber to give me some time
17 tomorrow as well because you are giving me really lengthy answer.
18 Now, is it true that in the BH media, a campaign was launched
19 against General MacKenzie in which there were allegations that the Serbs
20 pimped minor Muslim girls to him at the restaurant? Do you remember that
22 A. Yes. I remember that people were making statements to that
23 effect, and the possibility that something like that happened. However,
24 I was in Kontiki, and I knew that representatives of the international
25 community came to visit us and I know that on such occasions, lambs were
1 roasted and all these feasts were prepared, but I couldn't know any
2 specifics about what this was all about. There were situations like
4 Q. Thank you. Can we just stick to "yes" or "no"? After your
5 escape, did you state that you had seen and recognised General MacKenzie,
6 and that at the time, there were four girls loosely dressed and that it
7 you couldn't believe that that was attributable to such a reputable
9 A. No. I was not involved in these intrigues targeting
10 General MacKenzie because this visit of his to Kontiki was being
11 discussed by the Serbs, such as Borislav Herak and Sretko Damjanovic, who
12 were detained alongside me.
13 Q. Do you want to confirm that Borislav Herak and Srecko Damjanovic
14 were convicted by the Bosnia-Herzegovinian court of murder of people who
15 later on turned out to be alive; "yes" or "no"?
16 A. I am not quite familiar with the grounds on which they were
17 convicted. I know that one of the persons charged, whether
18 Sretko Damjanovic or the other one, one of the victims appeared to be
19 alive and his sentence was reduced.
20 Q. Or he was maybe acquitted because it was decided that everything
21 was fabricated and based on lies?
22 A. No. He wasn't -- Sretko Damjanovic wasn't acquitted. He was
23 sentenced to eight years in prison and the time spent in prison during
24 trial was credited to his total sentence.
25 Q. Were you a human shield? Were you used as human shield once?
1 A. Yes, I was.
2 Q. Were you taken out of the bunker to perform labour?
3 A. Yes, I was.
4 Q. Can we now look at 1D3356? How many times were you taken out for
5 work assignments from the bunker?
6 A. I was taken from the bunker twice, but throughout the whole
7 period of my detention, I was taken out six times tops, but specifically
8 twice from the bunker.
9 Q. All right. Can you see that this is an interview that you gave
10 to Lars Nielsen in 1994, a police inspector of the United Nations? Do
11 you remember that he interviewed you?
12 A. Yes. I remember that they talked to me.
13 Q. Thank you. You told him that you escaped on the 5th of December,
14 after being used as a human shield, live shield. Is that what you said?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can we now get -- just one moment, please. Could all the
17 participants please take a look at this first page before we move to the
18 next one? It states here -- I will have to read in English here:
19 "[In English] The witness explained that there was no well
20 situated on the plot. He knew, however, that there was a well somewhere
21 east of the plot. He knew that the well was located near the pear tree.
22 He knew this because when people had been sent for water, they often
23 brought back pears. Most of the time it was Hido, Ahmed, and
24 Zornic, Zlatan, who were sent to the well."
25 [Interpretation] And then on page 2 it says that there was no
1 fence on the northern side of the restaurant, that the parking lot was on
2 the eastern side, and that there was a green fence, a hedge, you have
3 said that, and that there was no barbed wire fence; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that is right.
5 Q. And then it goes on to say a little bit further along:
6 [In English] "At the end of May 1992, beginning of June 1992, the
7 prison held about 40 male prisoners. These were held in the bunker,
8 together with one woman. In the barracks were held four girls from the
9 village Vogosca. He did not know them by name but he recognised their
10 faces. He assumed that they were Muslims."
11 [Interpretation] Were they waitresses or were they something
12 else? Because you say here, "He assumed" so you assumed something; is
13 that right? Did you know were they waitresses or were they something
15 A. Those girls were not waitresses in that location, and since
16 during those days I was frequently taken out to a hut that was between
17 the bunker and the Kontiki guest house, I had the opportunity to see
18 those girls. I had the opportunity even to hear when the prison warden,
19 Branko Vlaco, was giving certain instructions to the girls, how they
20 would behave towards the guests. I didn't know which guests were in
21 question at the time, but judging by their expression I could see that
22 these were persons there who had been brought from outside of the
23 locality of the territory of the Kontiki guest house, and they were not
24 part of the restaurant staff at the guest house.
25 Q. Are you saying that men and women detainees were permitted to go
1 out, but at the time they were accompanied by armed guards? Are you --
2 then you speak here about how you got these mats. Can we look at page 3.
3 Can you please tell us how you identified General MacKenzie, and you talk
4 about it on this page? What did you notice about him that made you
5 convinced that it was him?
6 A. Well, it's described there. I don't have anything particular to
7 add other than just something that is not indicated in the statement. I
8 don't know because it's an English translation so I don't know exactly
9 what is written there, but I think that that person that I later
10 identified as General MacKenzie had an unusual watch on his wrist. It
11 was a bit larger than what I had had the opportunity to see, in terms of
12 watch size before. But everything else is in the statement.
13 Q. It says: "MacKenzie was dressed in green battle dress. [In
14 English] His shirt sleeves were rolled up."
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, Ms. Sutherland?
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have a copy of the statement
17 that's been translated into B/C/S if it -- to assist the witness. This
18 was disclosed to the Defence a few days ago.
19 JUDGE KWON: But not yet uploaded in the e-court? Yes, a hard
20 copy can be provided to the witness.
21 Shall we take a break, Mr. Karadzic, now?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the Trial Chamber, in view of
23 these very long answers, allow me a bit more time?
24 JUDGE KWON: How much more would you need? You have half an hour
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, at least the next session.
2 The witness gave a lot of statements, testified in a lot of cases, and
3 it's very important, all of this, for the Trial Chamber to be able to
4 have an insight into all the things that this witness said.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: Conclude your cross-examination in an hour's time.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 JUDGE KWON: We will resume at 11.00.
9 --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.
10 --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Well, in order to keep it short, I kindly ask you to reply with a
15 "yes" or "no" wherever possible. Is it correct that in different
16 statements you cited different number of times that were you taken out
17 for work assignments while you were at the bunker?
18 A. Yes, that is correct, but mostly it was not more than six times
20 Q. Is it correct -- excuse me, is it correct that you stated that
21 you were taken out twice, four times, seven times?
22 A. See, when we are talking about being taken out of prison,
23 I talked about the more significant times that I was taken out. I went
24 out of the bunker compound a number of times. But these six times, two,
25 four, six times, that was when I was in some way exposed to firing from
1 both sides of the separation line, and when I was doing some more
2 difficult assignments that prisoners were taken out to carry out. And
3 this was six times at the most.
4 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that in one statement you said that you
5 were never used as a human shield?
6 A. The use of human shields and what is a human shield is something
7 that one cannot know unless they experience it. My escape from prison
8 involved the classic use of human shields. However, when I went out to
9 do certain work assignments, in a way I could also be considered as a
10 human shield because the jobs that we were doing were in the areas
11 between the two armies, in the areas of separation between the Serbian
12 army and the Bosnian army. On the 5th of December, when I escaped from
13 prison, I was in an actual human shield situation where I was exposed, in
14 front of the Army of Republika Srpska, facing the JNA.
15 Q. Hides behind the grandfather in order to fire at the bear. Does
16 that mean that you were placed in front of Serbian soldiers who were
17 advancing and you were in the role of a human shield? When did this
19 A. The most significant human shield situation where I was -- where
20 I was -- that I was in was on the 5th of December, when I escaped from
21 the prison where I was kept captive. The Serbs placed us in front of
22 them. We were carrying ammunition boxes, they placed heavy weapons on
23 the shoulders of some prisoners and were pushing them in front of them.
24 We were practically walking in front of them so that we would be exposed
25 to Bosnia-Herzegovina army fire, and at the same time, in case we
1 encountered an explosive or a device or a mine, we would be the first
2 ones to trip or to be exposed to these explosive devices.
3 Q. So you were a live target or a human shield, is that the same
4 thing to you?
5 A. I'm sorry. I was a human shield, and at the same time, I served
6 as a live target for the other side. We were used as a kind of shield
7 behind which the Serbian army soldiers could hide because they held some
8 of us by the shoulders and were pushing us in front of them. They also
9 placed heavy weapons on our shoulders and they were walking in front, and
10 before that, they were warned that they were not allowed to bend over, to
11 try to seek cover in any way. They were instructed to behave like human
12 live targets.
13 Q. And in which statement specifically did you describe that?
14 A. Wherever I was describing my escape. Wherever I said that
15 I escaped, I said that I escaped from being a human shield.
16 Q. Well, we will find that if we have time. Please tell us, you
17 described that you were sent to cut trees, to do other things. What were
18 the kinds of things that you did and is it correct that those who applied
19 to go to work got more food and more cigarettes?
20 A. Well, there are different forms of torture that people who were
21 together in the camp with me were exposed to. Those who went out for
22 work assignments, in order to be able to carry out these difficult tasks
23 given to them, they were given certain quantities of food when they were
24 doing these jobs. Not infrequently, those of us who stayed behind did
25 not really get adequate quantities of food or were given that much
1 attention from the Serbian soldiers. While prisoners were taken out for
2 tasks outside of the compound, we were sent to cut wood, that's what
3 I did specifically. We were sent for digging and covering up the
4 trenches, whenever the lines moved forward, so mostly these were jobs
5 involving trench digging between the line of separation between the two
6 armies. This was when the Serbian army was moving its lines forward
7 towards the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Then they would release the
8 prisoners into the area in front of them in order to dig the
9 fortifications, in order that they could capture that area later.
10 At one occasion I was taken out with a group of prisoners to the
11 Ravne hill above Semizovac, this is a plateau that runs towards
12 Ravne Nabozic mountain from Semizovac, and in mid-August, we were
13 clearing the forest there, in order to create a clearing that was located
14 between the two armies, and that forest was exposed to a fire the night
15 before. It was torched. So besides being exposed to strong sunlight, we
16 also suffered from the heat from the fire that raged in that area
17 earlier. And at the same time, we had to clear the scorched trees in
18 order to create a clearing, and at the time we were also suffering from a
19 shortage of food and water. We were suffering from burns as well because
20 we were not allowed to drag those smouldering pieces of wood but we
21 actually had to pick them up and carry them to a place where that
22 material was going to be burned. But those who were suffering from
23 exhaustion, who couldn't work, who couldn't run, were subjected to
24 physical torture. They were hit and they were struck by rifle butts, by
25 the Serbian soldiers. One of the fingers on my left hand was hurt and
1 then later when I returned to the camp, for days after that I didn't get
2 proper medical treatment for that injury, so that the wound got infected
3 and was treated only after I escaped from prison. This was after the
4 5th of December when I crossed over into the territory under the control
5 of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
6 Q. Mr. Muracevic, you're making this big salad of lies here. Did
7 the prisoners report voluntarily for work assignments?
8 A. There were some for which the detainees themselves reported.
9 However, when it happened that in addition to agricultural work and
10 trench digging, the prisoners were being used as human shields, then
11 there were less and less volunteers. So in the beginning of September,
12 hardly anyone wanted to volunteer for any kind of work because it was
13 well known that they could be used as human shields as well. Or perhaps
14 they could be exposed to gunfire in other ways.
15 Q. Please, wherever possible, just say "yes" or "no." Did you
16 report for work voluntarily ever and, if so, how many times?
17 A. I never volunteered to go out to work.
18 Q. Thank you. Who was mistreated in the way that you described and
19 was then beaten using rifle butts? Give us a name.
20 A. Suad Sosevic, Zahid Barucija and a few others who I cannot
21 remember. I cannot remember their names.
22 Q. Did you see that or did someone say that to you?
23 A. I saw it myself.
24 Q. Where?
25 A. Suad Sosevic at the Ravne hill above Semizovac, Zahid Barucija on
1 the Zuci [phoen] plateau.
2 Q. Who was responsible for them, then? Who was it that escorted you
3 up there, name and surname?
4 A. Well, I cannot give you the name and surname of the person, the
5 soldier, who was actually beating him. I didn't know his name. But the
6 responsible person on that line, in this zone, rather, was
7 Dragisa Damjanovic. So, at the time when he was mistreated, he was some
8 kind of commander in the area. Dragisa Damjanovic.
9 Q. How many guards did you have in the bunker, Mr. Muracevic?
10 A. Since the number changed, it was, say, 15 or 20, but I cannot
11 give you any definite figure as to how many there were. Around the
12 bunker usually there would be about ten soldiers, ten guards, in
13 different positions.
14 Q. Did you know the names of the persons who were taking you out to
15 do that work?
16 A. Most of the guards that were there -- well, we knew them but very
17 often it wasn't the guards themselves who took people out to work, those
18 who were guarding us at the place where we were held captive. Various
19 persons came for this person, either members of military units or police
20 structures or some local Serbs, and I was not aware of what they
21 particularly did in that area. So it wasn't the guards who invariably
22 escorted the prisoners to the locations where they worked, for which they
23 were taken out of the place where they had been detained.
24 Q. Thank you. So we cannot identify the Serb who mistreated these
25 two men because they were so weak, right?
1 A. Well, it's not that we cannot but I don't know. Specifically,
2 Suad Sosevic was mistreated by Ranko Jankovic. He's the brother of a
3 friend of mine from school, and he had some kind of a command position in
4 that area.
5 Q. Have you ever you stated that before?
6 A. Well, somewhere, but I don't know whether it was included in the
7 statements that are part of this sublimated statement. There are a lot
8 of statements. There have been a lot of statements and I'm not sure that
9 all of them are contained in this one.
10 Q. Thank you. You mentioned some people who came from time to time
11 and wore cockades, where?
12 A. Usually on their caps, berets, head gear, right?
13 Q. Thank you. You say that some persons mistreated others but they
14 said that Branko Vlaco, the commander, should not find out about that.
15 Was it your impression that they were afraid of Vlaco?
16 A. Branko Vlaco was the commander of the prison, so the logic is
17 that his subordinates were afraid if he were to find out what they did,
18 especially if they did something that he did not tell them to do.
19 However, sometimes some prison wardens and guards brought in persons who
20 we did not know, or dogs, or they themselves took part in the
21 mistreatment of prisoners, and on such occasions they would say to us
22 that we could not convey that to Brano Vlaco, the commander of the
24 However, when certain mistreatments took place, when tear gas was
25 brought into the bunker and things like that, in front of these guards
1 and in front of Branko Vlaco, this kind of thing would happen but neither
2 he nor the guards did anything particular to protect us. I am not sure
3 that Branko Vlaco did not know what his subordinates were doing.
4 Q. Mr. Muracevic, it would be a very good thing, and the Prosecution
5 would appreciate it, if you would stick to the truth. This way, you are
6 just ruining your very own credibility. And the --
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour --
8 JUDGE KWON: No, Mr. Karadzic. Yes, Ms. Sutherland?
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's not a comment that should be made by
10 Mr. Karadzic.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. You put a question to the witness.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You said that they were afraid of Branko Vlaco, and you even said
14 in some statements that guards did not mistreat you but that some guards
15 allowed unknown persons to enter the premises and mistreat people. On
16 one occasion, when they threw some kind of gas in, the guards were trying
17 to save people; right?
18 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer, Mr. Muracevic, you want the
19 reference for that?
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I had the amount of time that I
22 had asked for, you'd have a reference too.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did you state that, sir? That they were afraid that Branko Vlaco
25 would find out what they did? That's one question, "yes" or "no"?
1 A. As for whether they were afraid or not, I do not remember having
2 stated anywhere that they were afraid of this Branko Vlaco. However, as
3 a person whose -- who was their boss in a way, if I can put it that way,
4 they should be afraid if they did something without him knowing about it.
5 However, when I said that in prison not all the guards were extremists
6 who mistreated the camp inmates, that was presented in my statement, but
7 some of them were more extreme and they themselves mistreated us who they
8 were guarding, but at the same time they also brought in other people to
9 mistreat us.
10 Q. Thank you. You are wasting my time terribly. I just asked you
11 whether they threatened you that the warden should not find out. In
12 paragraph 11 of your statement, did you not say --
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry, Mr. Karadzic said that
14 the witness said a certain thing. The witness said that he didn't say it
15 and then he's telling him he's wasting his time. He's simply answering
16 the allegation that's being put to him.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Did you not say in one statement in respect of persons who
19 mistreated you, that they threatened you saying that the prison warden
20 should not find out about that, "yes" or "no"?
21 A. Mr. Accused, that is just one situation in a sea of other
22 situations in which they and the prison commander coordinated their
23 intimidation of the detainees. Well, there was a certain situation when
24 they took some money from a person who they brought into custody. And
25 this person had collected that money in order to buy something for some
1 other citizens. And then they threatened him saying that they -- that he
2 should not tell the prison warden that they had taken that money from
3 him. So that is that situation that you're getting at, whether they were
4 afraid or not. Of course, they were afraid if they took something away
5 from someone and did not report that to the prison administration.
6 Q. And had they reported that, you say that they could get away with
7 it, right, "yes" or "no"?
8 A. Sorry, no one took that money away from me but they did take away
9 this money from Asif Sehic. In the bunker we tried to resuscitate him
10 for three days because he was beaten so badly. He said that when he
11 came, the guards took some money away from him and threatened him that he
12 should not report that to the prison warden.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I kindly ask the Trial Chamber to
14 give me another session so that we go through all of the statements made
15 by this witness. This is not a question. This is a request.
16 Did you not say in paragraph 11 -- I'm going to read it in
18 [In English] "The Municipal Crisis Staff of which I was a member
19 was involved in working on manning the police reserve formation and later
20 on working on the recruiting people into the new TO unit. In cooperation
21 with the Municipal Crisis Staff I was engaged in acquisition of weapons
22 for the settlement of Svrake, Semizovac --"
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, these questions were all dealt
24 with with the witness yesterday. I don't know why Mr. Karadzic wants to
25 go back over them again today, if he has very limited time.
1 JUDGE KWON: What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. My question is whether it is true that you had dugouts where you
4 hid these weapons.
5 A. We had no dugouts and we did not have any special weapons that we
6 were supposed to hide in dugouts.
7 Q. But then we'll have to call up a document, a record of when you
8 were heard as a witness on the 15th of March, 1993. The Army of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina versus yours truly. ERN page number -- I'll have to
10 rely on that, 00287259. This is what you say. Some hunting weapons that
11 we had we hid in bunkers, dugouts and cellars.
12 Did you have them all on the 2nd of May?
13 A. Every house, or most houses, in my neighbourhood had certain
14 basements. We didn't have any bunkers. Bunkers are special
15 establishments that have to be built. Now, in addition to housing
16 facilities, whether someone had dug out a trench or a small dugout or
17 something to protect oneself from gunfire that was aimed at our village
18 for months, it is possible that that kind of thing existed. But it
19 wasn't that these were specific dugouts for hiding weapons that we didn't
20 even have, right.
21 Q. Does that mean, witness, that we should not take your statements
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland? Did you find the reference?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]
25 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: 65 ter number 22195 is the statement of the
2 25th of March, 1993.
3 JUDGE KWON: Let us upload it and show it to the witness.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: And, Your Honour, a moment ago when I made a
5 reference to Mr. Karadzic having very limited time, that's his
6 understanding, it's not the OTP's. He's had over four hours with this
7 witness already.
8 JUDGE KWON: Where can we see his reference to bunkers --
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Page 3 of the English translation and --
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 2 of Serbian.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- page 2 of the B/C/S.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. While we are waiting for that, may I explain. Today the witness
14 said that he had not been informed about what the MUP had been informed
15 about. This is what I read from his statement and it shows that he
16 cooperated with the MUP. And also what I said, that he was buying and
17 procuring weapons, and then he says that they only had hunting guns.
18 Ah, yes, now I'm going to read it. It's the end of the
19 second paragraph, Witness. The end of the second paragraph.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And in English, could you also get
21 the English version for the other participants?
22 JUDGE KWON: At this moment, I don't think the English
23 translation has been uploaded. But let's proceed.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The end of the second paragraph, you say, "Near your village --
1 or, rather, the military facility of Semizovac fire was opened at our
2 village and for two days we put up some resistance with the few hunting
3 weapons we had. We hid in dugouts, shelters, and bunkers -- or, rather,
5 If that was not the case, can we not take your statements
7 A. Sorry, you cannot say that you cannot take my statements as such.
8 This is in context. When you're fired at, you have to hide somewhere.
9 I mean bunkers and dugouts, as I say here, it's sort of makeshift
10 bunkers. It's not those that were fortified by concrete. Before that,
11 during the attacks, people were digging dugouts to protect themselves
12 from the fire that was coming at them. And that is what you can
13 establish on the basis of this statement. It is true that we were
14 seeking shelter before fire.
15 But in your previous question, when you asked about bunkers,
16 dugouts and cellars, it seems that we had enormous quantities of weapons
17 that we were hiding in basements, bunkers, and dugouts. After all, if
18 there was combat activity going on, we wouldn't be hiding weapons. We
19 would be using it, possibly.
20 Q. Thank you. Witness, after escaping, on the 5th of December,
21 1992, did you join the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina again? You can say
22 "yes" or "no" now.
23 A. After my escape from prison, I did join the Army of
25 Q. Thank you. The Army of Republika Srpska, the Sarajevo
1 Romanija Corps, did they make it possible for you to see your mother in
3 A. It wasn't this Sarajevo Romanija Corps that made it possible for
4 me. This happened in a very roundabout way. Before the war, my mother
5 was treated in the Kasindol hospital. After I escaped from the camp,
6 with the assistance of the local Red Cross and with the assistance of the
7 International Red Cross, I managed to transfer my mother from the
8 Kasindol hospital to Sarajevo where I lived.
9 Q. This will also require only a "yes" or "no" answer. Does the
10 Kasindol hospital belong to the area of Sarajevo under Serb control?
11 A. It was under Serb control.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3353, could I have that now,
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm actually having trouble with
15 LiveNote. I can't scroll back up to the transcript. I don't know if
16 that can be fixed by the technicians. Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: One way of resolving is to restart but, okay, no
18 doubt the technician will look into the matter. I have no problem with
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Mr. Muracevic, this is the Main Staff of the Army of
22 Republika Srpska addressed to the command of the Sarajevo Romanija and
23 Drina Corps, dated the 25th of November, 1993. Can we now look at the
24 next page? And it reads as follows:
25 "On Sarajevo-Grbavica road, and then via Pale towards Belgrade,
1 the following reunion of the people with their family will take place.
2 Number 1, Muracevic, Rabija and her son Muracevic, Eset," and now the
3 remaining names are Croatian and Muslim respectively. And it was signed
4 by Major-General Manojlo Milovanovic, the Chief of Staff. So he's giving
5 permission to the Sarajevo Romanija Corps to enable you to reunite with
6 your mother. Is that how it happened?
7 A. That is when my mother was exchanged. With the assistance of the
8 ICRC, my mother was transferred from Kasindol hospital to Sarajevo where
9 I lived. It is true that that is when my mother was transferred to the
10 part of Sarajevo which was under the control of the BH Army, and she
11 joined me.
12 Q. You, as her son, Eset Muracevic, you said that she was exchanged.
13 What did the Serbs gets in exchange for her?
14 A. As I told you, with the aid of the ICRC, my mother was reunited
15 with me and she came to live with me. I have no information as to what
16 preceded that and what was the response of the Army of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The only detail I knew was that with the assistance
18 of the Red Cross, my mother would be transferred and that is what
19 happened. But I didn't have an opportunity to see this document. Maybe
20 it was hidden somewhere in the piles of documents, and I see some
21 signatures here. I was offered at the time of reunification to sign some
23 Q. Mr. Muracevic, let's go on. Your mother remained living in the
24 Serbian territory while you were in captivity. Then she was treated in a
25 Serbian hospital, and then, in November of 1993, at your request, she was
1 released and she reunited with you; is that correct?
2 A. My mother was supposed to be placed at the clinical centre in
3 Kosevo to receive treatment. However, due to some prior treatments that
4 he [as interpreted] had received in Kasindol, that is why she was put up
5 there. She stayed in that hospital, according to her words, and she
6 wasn't maltreated by anyone there because she was an elderly person who
7 suffered from high blood pressure and diabetes. According to what she
8 said after reunification, she had not had any significant problems, apart
9 from the fact that she was worried that no family members came to visit
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this document admitted
13 into evidence?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1111, Your Honours.
16 JUDGE KWON: 1111, yes.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have now to move to an important
18 document, and if the Trial Chamber allows me, on some other occasion, we
19 are going to demonstrate a whole number of incongruities that occurred in
20 the statements given by this witness.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Mr. Muracevic, did you bring with you or did you provide a list
23 here - can we have 1D3334? - a list of citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina
24 killed in Vogosca by the aggressor army?
25 A. That's part of the list that was provided in a sort of way, as
1 part of my statements. However, the final number that I reached of the
2 people killed in Vogosca municipality that were under the control of the
3 Serbian authorities was 294. Those people were either killed or taken to
4 an undisclosed location. Many of them passed before that through the
5 camps, Planjo's house and the garage and bunker, and some were killed in
6 their villages.
7 Q. Let's stick to the documents.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Since we do not have the English translation,
9 could you kindly read the first two lines, including the title,
10 Mr. Muracevic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So this is one of the lists of the
12 people killed --
13 JUDGE KWON: Could you kindly read the document so that we can
14 hear the interpretation?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "List of the citizens who, during
16 the aggression against Bosnia-Herzegovina, in the period 1992/1995, were
17 killed in Vogosca by the aggressor army, the army of Bosnian Serbs, and
18 whose burial places are not known."
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. We are now going to demonstrate that these people that have
22 numbers next to them, at least those people, but not only them, we
23 identified with the assistance of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina as
24 people who rejoined the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and were subsequently
25 killed in combat. The list that we received from the Army of
1 Bosnia-Herzegovina is 1D3355. If we can have this list on the other half
2 of the screen, so 1D3355. I'm going to read now. Adnan Puris, killed in
3 combat, and is listed under number 50 --
4 JUDGE KWON: I think we are experiencing some technical
6 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
7 JUDGE KWON: We need to break for ten minutes.
8 --- Break taken at 11.43 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 11.55 a.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Karadzic, you will have 15 minutes.
11 THE ACCUSED: 15?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: I think -- I think I would have even more than 15.
14 JUDGE KWON: Maybe 20 minutes but not more than that,
15 Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Would the participants please look
17 on the right-hand side of the screens? The Republican Centre for
18 Investigation of War Crimes is informing us in February of this year that
19 there was a list attached to this letter that had already been provided
20 to The Hague Tribunal. I'm going to read this letter:
21 "Attached herewith please find the list in electronic form
22 provided at your request referring to members of the BH Army killed
23 during the war in 1992/1995. This list had previously been provided to
24 The Hague Tribunal, and the Hague Tribunal placed these lists at the
25 disposal of the Commission for Srebrenica of the government of
1 Republika Srpska and the archives of the commission are stored in the
2 Republican Centre for Investigation of War Crimes."
3 Number 1, I'm not sure if this list has been disclosed, and
4 secondly, can we have the -- this list, 1D3348? We need both the list
5 that we saw earlier and the one which is listed as 1D3348. This one is
7 JUDGE KWON: 1D3334.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now it's all right. We have both
9 lists. Can we now find page 543 in e-court on the left-hand side of the
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: 453.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Muracevic, you said killed by the aggressor army.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, can we have 1D3334 and next to
15 it 1D3348, and then within 1D3348 we need page 453 in e-court.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You say, and this list has been introduced through you, claiming
18 that these people were killed. Do you make a distinction in our language
19 between dying and getting killed?
20 A. Mr. Karadzic, on the left-hand side of the screen we see the list
21 of members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and on the right-hand side
22 is the list that I provided of the people who were killed in the
23 territory under your control. The left-hand side list treats people who,
24 in a way, regulated their status as members of the armed forces. So in
25 this list, it is not shown the circumstances of their death. The people
1 listed on the right-hand side of the screen are people who were in
2 Vogosca under the Serbian control and they were either detained on the
3 premises where I was kept, such as Planjo's house, the garage and the
4 bunker, or were taken away from their homes and executed in a way.
5 So the list that I provided contains the names of the people
6 killed in the territory controlled by the local Serbs. At the time when
7 these people were killed, they were not killed as members of any armed
8 formation of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, meaning that they were not
9 members of a unit that was attacking the local Serbs. They were -- they
10 lost their lives as prisoners, people who didn't have weapons, and were
11 in the territory under your control. Most probably depending on the
12 degree of their engagement before taken prisoner, whether they were in
13 the reserve police or the regular police, their families probably had an
14 opportunity to regulate their status as members of the armed forces, and
15 the list that you are showing on the left-hand side of the screen shows
16 the people whose families managed to regulate their status as members of
17 the armed forces. They were killed, though, in the territory under the
18 Serb control but they were not killed carrying weapons or a rifle but,
19 rather, as unarmed people.
20 Q. Thank you. Can you please keep your answers short. Are you
21 saying that Adnan Puris was killed in Vogosca as a prisoner? If the
22 answer is yes, can you tell us where and when?
23 A. When I came here, I provided a list. I don't know if it was
24 given to you as well. It contains the names of 294 people who perished
25 in the territory under the Serb control. Maybe we can call up some of
1 those documents because this particular list contains the details as to
2 the place and date of their demise.
3 Q. Are you saying that Ibrahim Brkic was killed as a prisoner or was
4 he killed as a combatant?
5 A. Definitely not as a combatant. He was killed as someone who had
6 been detained in the territory under the Serb control. So he was not
7 killed as a combatant who was engaged in fighting with a rifle in his
8 hand but, rather, killed in the territory held by the Serbs and he was
9 not armed.
10 Q. Can you tell us when was Adnan Puris killed? Can you tell us
12 A. 294 people who --
13 Q. When was Adnan Puris killed?
14 A. Well, you can't ask me to give you such details off the top of my
15 head about nearly 300 people. If you would allow me to see and look at
16 this list, I can give you this information.
17 Q. Could the participants look at the number 50291, Adnan Puris,
18 born in Foca, lived in Vogosca, killed on the 21st of February, 1991.
19 "A" means "army." Killed. Not a civilian. He was killed. He wasn't
20 murdered. You say that the family here of the late Adnan Puris was
21 smuggling something. Is that correct?
22 A. You're showing the list of persons on the left-hand side of
23 persons who were killed while they were in the armed forces. Adnan Puris
24 definitely was killed in the territory of Vogosca, which was under the
25 control of your forces.
1 Q. When and where?
2 A. Perhaps we can call up the document that I brought with me. I
3 don't know if you've been provided that document.
4 Q. All right. Thank you. I hope that we will get the document that
5 you brought. I don't have it. I wasn't given it. But let's move on to
6 the next thing, sir.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland?
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: This was provided to Mr. Karadzic with the
9 proofing note. It's document number 13 which was attached to the note.
10 JUDGE KWON: By the way, can you zoom in on the left document so
11 that we can read the columns? The titles and the column. Can you show
12 the first column, the first row? Could you read the column for our
13 benefit? Because we don't have the English translation, Mr. Muracevic.
14 Could you read -- one by one.
15 A. First column is RB, I assume that that means ordinal number.
16 Next is last name, then name of the parents. Then the first name. Then
17 JMBG, unique identification number. Then municipality of birth,
18 municipality of residence, date of death, and ethnicity. And the cause
19 of death.
20 JUDGE KWON: Could you read the first column underneath cause of
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says "Poginuo," "killed."
23 JUDGE KWON: So the person we saw, Adnan Puris -- I'm sorry, let
24 me find it, yes, Puris, Adnan Puris, died when?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is the 21st of February, 1995,
1 according to this.
2 JUDGE KWON: According to this. And you wanted to take a look at
3 your documents that you brought with you? Let's revert to the previous
4 setting so that we can see the first name, Adnan Puris. Do you have it
5 with you, Ms. Sutherland?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes. Mr. Reid is uploading it at the moment.
7 JUDGE KWON: All right. Mr. Karadzic, please continue in the
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to recommend to the
10 participants, first of all a piece of information. This left-hand list
11 was given to the Army of Republika Srpska by the Army of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina in a mutual exchange of information about those who
13 were killed. So I would like to draw everyone's attention to column
14 "Belongingness" or "Membership," where we have the letters, A and P.
15 Army, police and unknown. And the column "Cause of death," there is
16 killed and unknown. So "N" is "unknown" and "Poginuo" is "killed."
17 Can all the parties now, as soon as the documents are uploaded,
18 to look at the left-handed number on the right-hand list and that is the
19 number according -- under which the person is in the left list, in the
20 records of members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who were killed.
21 Can we look at the following page of the list on the right-hand side?
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Are these members from Arab countries listed under 61 to 65,
24 Mr. Muracevic?
25 A. I don't know if they come from Arab countries, but the documents
1 that were found in the municipal building, these -- this was marked by
2 the Army of Republika Srpska that these people were killed in that
3 period, in that area. I don't know who these people are. They were
4 killed in the area held by the local Serbs. I don't know who they were.
5 They were not brought to the facilities where I was detained. I found
6 their names in the part of the documentation that we found after the
7 23rd of February, 1996, when we entered this part of the area. And we
8 found that among the documents that were left behind by the Serbian
10 Q. Are you trying to say --
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, bear it in mind that the Chamber does
12 not have the English translation of this. So first thing you should do
13 is to ask the witness to read the handwritten part so that we can follow.
14 And whose handwriting it was. And then put such questions. Could you
15 read out what is written in by hand there, Mr. Muracevic?
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the list that I provided,
17 somebody added the numbers and specifically two, four, the five last
18 names that are circled, these are the names Majrem Abu, Maris Abu,
19 Imran Abu, Muraj Aub, and Talha Abu. Somebody added in handwriting next
20 to those names, "Who are these Arabs?" I don't know who added that. It
21 was probably somebody from Mr. Karadzic's Defence. They might have
22 marked that.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Muracevic. Yes, Ms. Sutherland?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, that's the point I was going to
25 make. The document did not have any of the numbers written down the side
1 when it was -- when the witness provided it to the OTP.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Or the comment next to the names 61 to 65.
4 JUDGE KWON: Do you agree that those comments, the note, has been
5 made by the Defence? Yes, thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree. On the left-hand side,
7 the Defence put in the numbers under which these are listed in the list
8 given to us by the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. As for this, "Who are
9 these Arabs," it was probably an investigator from the Defence. These
10 Arabs are not on the list of the Armija dead soldiers.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Muracevic, who drafted this list, who compiled the list that
13 you brought?
14 A. The list that we are looking at on the right-hand side is a list
15 that I made on the basis of my personal information and on the basis of
16 documents we found in the territory when we entered it on the
17 23rd of February, 1996, that was left behind by the Serbian authorities.
18 Q. According to this, it turns out that the Serbs captured these
19 six Arabs, held them and killed them; is that correct?
20 A. Based on the documentation that I was able to see, all the
21 documentation says is that they were killed on a specific day in the
22 Vogosca territory, but we couldn't decipher whether they were captured or
23 whether they were liquidated somewhere, killed. I don't know. There
24 were no circumstances listed as to how they died.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D335 now, please, on
1 the right-hand side? 1D3335.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, again I note for the record that
3 the markings made on this document were not there when it was provided by
4 the witness, so presumably the Defence have also made those.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic has agreed with it.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. May I ask you, Mr. Muracevic, to read the text that is above the
9 A. So we are talking about the document that is shown on the
10 right-hand of the screen and it is titled, "List of citizens who during
11 the aggression on Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1992 to 1995 were captured by the
12 aggressor soldiers, the Bosnian Serb army, detained at their camp in
13 Vogosca, and from there taken in an unidentified direction."
14 Q. Thank you. Can we now look at -- can we look at 5031, let's say.
15 Hajrudin Raonic Hajco, 50301. Hajrudin Raonic Hajco, what do they say
16 for 50301? Killed on the 16th of June, 1992. Here it is, 50301,
17 Hajrudin, son of Rifet Raonic. Vogosca, born in Vogosca, lived, killed
18 on the 16th of June, 1992, a member of the army. You say that he was a
19 prisoner. Where was he a prisoner? Are you also trying to say that this
20 family also was messing with information?
21 A. Mr. Karadzic, on the left-hand side, there is the list of persons
22 whose families did manage to resolve for their missing and killed and get
23 the status for them as members of the armed forces. On the right-hand
24 list, all the persons who are on the right-hand list were captured,
25 detained by the Serbs in the Vogosca municipality area that you were
1 controlling. Specifically when you are talking about Hajco Hajrudin
2 Raonic, that was one of the persons who was taken from the Planina Kuca
3 camp in Svrake in June 1992 by representatives of the Serbian army, taken
4 in an unidentified direction, and that was when this person was taken
5 from this camp and has not been heard of since. We don't know of his
6 fate to this very day. His body was never found, and he's still on the
7 list of missing persons from the village of Svrake.
8 The list also has Hasan Abaz under number 1, who was tortured
9 horrifically in the camp. He was beaten, made to somersault on his head
10 from a height of three metres. He was exposed to homosexual relations,
11 he was forced into homosexual relations with other prisoners, and in
12 June 1992, this person was taken with a group of 28 Svrake citizens from
13 Naka's garage in an unidentified direction and we have not learned of
14 their fate to this very day. Most of these people here, their fate is
15 unknown. In the meantime, some of their bodies have been exhumed.
16 Q. Mr. Muracevic, were you captured, just briefly, were you captured
17 and detained?
18 A. I was detained by the Serbian army. I was taken to the barracks
20 Q. Yes. We know all of that. If you had been killed after 1993,
21 would you be listed as missing or would you be listed as somebody who was
23 A. In the legal structures of the authority of Bosnia-Herzegovina,
24 I would be listed as unofficial in the local commune of a certain
25 municipality, and probably my family would have tried to get me the
1 status of a member of the army because members of the TO, the police, and
2 the reserve forces, even if they were killed in detention camp, were
3 considered as members of the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina who were
5 JUDGE KWON: I think now it's time for you to conclude your
6 cross-examination. We'll deal with the documents but come to your last
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Mr. Muracevic, you claim that this list on the left-hand side,
10 which is an official document of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
11 where the status is killed, unknown, succumbed to injuries or wounds, are
12 you saying that list is incorrect and that what -- the list that you
13 brought you are saying that is correct and that we should not be taking
14 into account this list on the left-hand side; is that correct?
15 A. The list that you are talking about on the left-hand side is a
16 list of names of people whose families, regardless of the fact that these
17 men were captured and detained, their families, because these people were
18 either members of the reserve forces, the Territorial Defence or of the
19 police forces, secured for them the status of members of the army. So
20 this is a list of persons whose families managed to obtain for them the
21 status of members of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina regardless of the
22 circumstances of how they really died.
23 The list on the left-hand side are -- on the right-hand side is a
24 list of persons who were killed, taken away in an unidentified direction,
25 by Bosnian Serbs, and at the point of -- in time when they were killed or
1 when they died in a different way, they were not part of the armed
2 formations. They were simply unarmed prisoners who were at the time held
3 by the Serbian forces in camps such as Nakina Kuca, the bunker, Planjo's
4 garage, and other things.
5 Q. Sir, Mr. Muracevic, do you have any proof that things are the way
6 you say or should we just take your word for it?
7 A. Look, some --
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the witness has answered the question
9 already. Whether you challenge it, whether it's correct or not, it is
10 subject of your further submission, but don't argue with the witness.
11 The witness said that on the left table -- side list, it is not shown the
12 circumstances of their death. So it -- let's move on. Or it's time to
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Well, I think, witness, sir, that these are dangerous lies that
16 insult these victims and these families, "yes" or "no"?
17 A. Mr. Karadzic, I cannot understand this remark of yours. It is
18 your intention to use this court to intimidate me and to make me forget
19 what I experienced. On the right-hand side of the screen are listed
20 persons who were in detention in captivity in camps by members of the
21 Army of Republika Srpska. They were taken away, killed, or taken away in
22 an unidentified direction from their places of captivity. And, for
23 example, if we look at Alic, Enes, or any of these people have in the
24 meantime been exhumed. Their bodies have been exhumed. We have exhumed
25 a certain number, three persons, down river from that particular camp.
1 It was some ten kilometres downstream from Svrake. That's where their
2 bodies were exhumed. The other option was that all of these people on
3 the right-hand side were captured in the places where I was, bunker,
4 Planina Kuca, Naka's garage, they were in house detention, and sometimes
5 we were would pass through areas where members of the Serbian army were
6 keeping these persons captive. At the point in time when they died, at
7 their time of death, they were not part of any armed formations. They
8 were simply persons who were being held as prisoners, as detainees, or I
9 don't know how else to describe them.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Thank you. Can these
11 three lists be tendered, please?
12 JUDGE KWON: I think we have seen four documents. First 1D3334,
13 1D3334 and 1D3335, list A and B. And a letter of confirmation, 1D3355,
14 and finally the list, 1D3348. Are you tendering all of them? Shall we
15 mark them for identification pending translation?
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, Your Honour, 1D3334 and 1D3335, we have
17 read into the record the headings on the top of the document so I think
18 they can be admitted.
19 JUDGE KWON: Ah, yes. Yes. We can admit those two documents
20 without having to wait for the English translation because we can read
21 them all. So we will admit them, those two documents, with the caveat
22 that notations made on these documents were made by the Defence team.
23 And in the meanwhile, we'll mark for identification 1D3348 and
24 1D3355. Shall we give the numbers?
25 The list of people -- only the columns can be -- should be
1 translated not all the names. So just the --
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: I think that has been translated as well. So we can
4 admit that list as well, which is 1D3348. It is document of 700 pages,
5 more than 700 pages, yes. That will be admitted.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: The only thing, Your Honour, we would need to
7 know what these other things stand for in the final column because I see
8 some Ns and then some abbreviations.
9 JUDGE KWON: But we heard what "poginuo" means. And we heard
10 these Defence submission what N means and then --
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: What does "PODO.US.R" mean?
12 JUDGE KWON: Can we have the assistance from the interpreters?
13 PODO --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may help, I assume that that
15 means succumbed to injuries or wounds, so wounded and then died later.
16 "N" can be "nepoznato," "unknown," or "nestao," "missing." "Poginuo"
17 means killed in fighting. "Ubijen" means "executed." Membership, "A" is
18 "army," "P" is "police," so that means that there are no civilians on
19 this list. There are only members of the army and the police.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Ms. Sutherland, do you have much for
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, maybe 15 or ...
23 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether we need to take a break or not.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Maybe 15 or 20 minutes.
25 JUDGE KWON: Then it's safe to have a break. When did we resume?
1 Since they haven't changed the tape we have to take a break now. Half an
3 --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.01 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, if I could just deal with the last
7 document we were talking about?
8 JUDGE BAIRD: Ms. Sutherland, may I interrupt you for just a
9 brief while to assist us in a very, very small matter?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Judge Baird.
11 JUDGE BAIRD: And can I refer you to the statement of the
12 witness, the amalgamated statement, at para 13. The attack on Svrake,
13 para 13. You have it there? The line, "People were wounded and killed."
14 Now, the conjunction "and" there is joining two sentences, is it not?
15 People were wounded and people were killed? You agree with that.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
17 JUDGE BAIRD: Well, now, you referred to us footnote 49, and you
18 said in his statement of 1996, he said that four people were wounded and
19 one killed.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE BAIRD: I mean, you know, they aren't the same, are they?
22 People were wounded on the one hand and one -- and killed, on the one
23 hand, and one was killed, on the other.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
25 JUDGE BAIRD: What then would you want the Chamber to consider,
1 if, for instance, it's addressing the issue of conflicting previous
2 statements? Which one?
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the witness has clarified that the
4 word -- that one person was killed and that's on the record. So the
5 sentence now reads, "People were wounded and one killed." In fact, he
6 said that four people were wounded.
7 JUDGE BAIRD: All right. So therefore --
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Because the -- the footnotes to this statement
9 are not in evidence. It's simply the amalgamated witness statement is
10 and the footnotes are to assist the Defence if they want to go back to
11 find where the information that -- where we have drawn the information
12 from in compiling the amalgamated witness statement --
13 JUDGE BAIRD: I appreciate that.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: -- and he can see --
15 JUDGE BAIRD: So therefore when it reads, "People were killed,"
16 we should not take it literally as people, meaning more than one person
17 was killed.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, people were wounded and one person
19 was killed. I take the point.
20 JUDGE BAIRD: And one person was killed. That is how we should
21 approach it?
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes.
23 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much, indeed.
24 JUDGE KWON: We haven't given the number for the last four
25 exhibits. Shall we do that now?
1 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. 1D3355 will be MFI D1112.
2 1D3334 will be D1113. 1D3335 will be D1114. And 1D3348 will be D1115.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, at one point in time, did you or did
4 you not say that, in the meantime, you are going to produce all the
5 inconsistent parts of various witness statements made by -- this witness?
6 I'm trying to find that part. Did you say so?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Sorry, I'm waiting for the
8 interpretation. [In English] I'm waiting for the interpretation.
9 JUDGE KWON: But in order to do so, do you not need to tender all
10 the witness statements?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? May I say what my idea was?
12 I wanted to seek leave to make this comparison and to tender these pages.
13 Not necessarily the entire material. There are about 15 or 20
14 testimonies and statements. Had they all been admitted, I would be able
15 to deal with it in my closing arguments but this way --
16 JUDGE KWON: If it is not in the evidence we cannot look at it.
17 So that's why I turned to Mr. Robinson.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, it's unfortunate that he did
19 not have enough time to do this correctly so that we could have presented
20 them to the witness and gotten their comment -- his comment on them. But
21 if you're minded to receive the statements, we would think that that's a
22 good solution, given the lack of time to use to -- for traditional
23 impeachment methods.
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I disagree. I think that the
1 witness -- any inconsistencies that Mr. Karadzic deems in his prior
2 statements, should be put to the witness that he has an opportunity to
3 explain them. And not simply after he's left the Tribunal to then
4 produce a document.
5 THE ACCUSED: Then I need time.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: We agree with you, Ms. Sutherland. Now he's your
9 THE ACCUSED: Does it mean that I am going to get time?
10 JUDGE KWON: No, Mr. Karadzic.
11 Ms. Sutherland.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, just on D1115 that's just been
13 admitted, the list of persons, the big long list, Mr. Karadzic asserted
14 that the word "poginuo," apologies for my pronunciation of it,
15 p-o-g-i-n-u-o, means "killed in fighting." In fact, it's our
16 understanding that that word simply means "killed" and it can be a death
17 caused by unnatural causes or any other form of death, but simply, it
18 doesn't mean "killed in fighting."
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That has been noted.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: We would invite the Chamber to seek input from
21 CLSS in relation to that matter.
22 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we ask just the first page of that
23 document to be translated, to be safe. Thank you. That can be done.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting, "ubijen" and
25 "poginuo" mean completely different things. If somebody is "ubijen,"
1 "killed," and if he is a member of an army, although even if he were not
2 to be killed in combat, if he loses his life, the status of his death
3 remains the same, and his family is entitled to the same rights, if he is
4 a member of the army.
5 JUDGE KWON: All those are matters to be discussed in the
6 submission and to be clarified by the language expert. But this is not
7 the time to discuss it further.
8 Ms. Sutherland.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
10 Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
11 Q. Mr. Muracevic, this afternoon, earlier today, at page 50,
12 Mr. Karadzic was taking -- was -- took you to one of the lists that you
13 had provided, a list of citizens killed, and you said that:
14 "That list was provided as part of my statements. However, the
15 final number that I reached of people killed in Vogosca municipality that
16 were under the control of the Serbian authorities was 294."
17 First of all, that list, the earlier list, that was up on the
18 screen, that was provided to the Office of the Prosecutor in 2001, was it
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I can have on the screen 65 ter number 23 --
22 sorry, 90236, please.
23 Q. Do you recognise the document that's on the screen?
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And this was a list of 294 persons, and this list you provided to
1 the Prosecution when you came to The Hague on the weekend; is that
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And is this the list that you were referring to earlier in your
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When did you prepare this list?
8 A. This list was created from the moment I was detained until
9 I walked into this courtroom. So we can take it until the present day.
10 That is to say that it was compiled on the basis of information that was
11 compiled after the war as well. This list does include a large number of
12 people who were in bunker, Planjo's house and other locations where they
13 were detained. They were taken from their homes and then they suffered
14 in the occupied part of the territory of Vogosca municipality.
15 Q. And when you say this list was compiled from when you were first
16 detained until -- until today, if I understand you, does -- well, does
17 that mean that you're updating this list as we go or as -- as you obtain
18 further information in relation to exhumations, for example?
19 A. That is correct. Every new bit of knowledge that came after the
20 exhumations and after we found out about what happened to missing persons
21 meant that people were added to this list. It is not a final or finite
23 Q. If we could just go to the last page, please, page 19, and that
24 is, I think, what you say at the bottom of the document, is it not?
25 A. Yes, that's right. That's right. This is a list of names, and
1 then on the basis of exhumations or relevant witness statements, these
2 are persons who may be considered to have lost their lives in
3 Serb-controlled territory in the Vogosca municipality.
4 Q. When you say witness statements, are you referring to people
5 coming to you in the municipality?
6 A. I'm referring to persons who were detained together with me in
7 some of the camps or in the period when the territory of the municipality
8 of Vogosca was under Serb control, they lived in that territory. When
9 the war was over in 1995, when we entered the area, we found about
10 100 inhabitants who were ethnic Muslims and who spent almost the entire
11 war in that area. In most cases these were families that involved mixed
12 marriages and things like that.
13 Q. And it was those people that provided with you the information?
14 A. From these people, on the basis of personal knowledge, and also
15 in view of persons who spent some time with persons who had been killed
16 or who went missing from a certain area.
17 Q. Thank you.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'd seek to tender this document.
19 JUDGE KWON: You have to put it be marked for identification.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, until we have the document
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Does the Trial Chamber allow the
24 Defence to put a mark next to every one of these names of the persons who
25 are on this list denoting the nature of these deaths? So can we bar
1 table that kind of a document so that the Trial Chamber would know what
2 this was all about?
3 JUDGE KWON: We'll deal with that when it is filed. I can't --
4 I'm not in the position to give an answer to that question without
5 knowing what it is about.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this document was disclosed to the
7 Defence, so they may well have used it in cross-examination if they
8 wished to.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We will give that an MFI number.
10 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI P2397.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. Mr. Muracevic --
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? Just one word.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to spare Madam Sutherland
16 of this remark of mine. This was disclosed at the very last moment and
17 I've just seen it now. I think that we got it on Monday, while I was
18 busy with other witnesses, so at the very last moment.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let's move on.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, it is on the record that the
21 witness brought it on the weekend and it was disclosed on Sunday.
22 Q. On pages 24 and 25 today, Mr. Karadzic asked you a question in
23 relation to was it a matter of personal revenge of things being --
24 happening to you in relation to the bunker, and the detention facilities.
25 And in your answer you said, quite simply, it was something coordinated
1 that was done by the local Serbs, and then you went on to refer to a
2 document by Jovan Tintor. And Mr. Karadzic said do you agree, should we
3 look for a document that Jovan Tintor had this building handed over, and
4 you said, no, it was earlier in May and then sometime in mid-July.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 01509 on the
6 screen, please.
7 Q. Do you recognise this document?
8 A. Yes, I do recognise this document.
9 Q. And this is a document that you brought on the weekend, however,
10 it has been an exhibit in -- a 65 ter exhibit in this case for some time.
11 But in relation to the document, is this the document that you were
12 referring to earlier today?
13 A. This is the document that I mentioned, and that shows that
14 Jovan Tintor, as president of the Crisis Staff, ordered the owner of the
15 Kontiki bed and breakfast and her son to make available these premises
16 for interrogating detained persons. That is to say that before the
17 attack on my village, they planned certain activities and they realised
18 that they needed premises for interrogating persons brought in.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P2398, Your Honours.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Now, Mr. Muracevic, the document --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, just one observation? This
1 was not issued by Tintor. It was issued by some deputy of his. And
2 secondly, it is the civilian authorities that are requisitioning property
3 and handing it over to the police. We are not dealing with this in any
4 other way but just saying this, but what the witness said is different.
5 JUDGE KWON: You can make your submission later on. We all can
7 MS. SUTHERLAND:
8 Q. And the later document you referred to, Mr. Muracevic, I will not
9 bring up on to the screen. It's already an exhibit in this case.
10 Yesterday, you were asked about your experiences, about documents,
11 certain documents, that Mr. Karadzic was mistaken when he was assuming
12 that you reviewed certain documents given to you by the state commission,
13 and you clarified that and said that it was documents that you found in
14 the Vogosca municipality and that you had provided to them. But then you
15 also went on to say that -- that you did have an opportunity to review
16 an -- an audio tape in relation to a speech that Karadzic had made. Do
17 you recall that?
18 A. I remember. The documents that we are referring to, we found
19 after the reintegration of the Vogosca area into the federation area,
20 after the 23rd of February 1996. And most of these documents, I can say
21 almost all the documents, that have been presented today and as part of
22 my statements, are documents that we found either in the municipal
23 building in Vogosca or in some other facilities that were before that
24 under the control of the Serbs.
25 Q. Mr. Muracevic, if I can pause you there, if I could -- I want you
1 to look at a document now to see whether this is, in fact, the audio
2 recording that you referred to in your transcript yesterday.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: And I could have Exhibit P00958, please. And if
4 we could see page 6 of the English translation and --
5 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I'm going to object to
6 this now as going outside of the scope of the cross-examination, and this
7 really should have been -- if this was important to the Prosecution, a
8 speech of Dr. Karadzic, it should have been put to the witness on direct
9 examination. But to bring it up now and deny us the opportunity for
10 questioning, I think, is unfair.
11 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, could you tell us how it is
12 transpired -- it transpired from the cross-examination?
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Because Mr. Karadzic was putting to the witness
14 that he was provided all these documents by the authorities, and then he
15 was going on to say that -- well, I can do it another way, Your Honour.
16 In relation to -- he went further on, there was a discussion further on,
17 in relation to the selling of the land, not being able to be sold to
18 Muslims, and that's at -- on page 12687 and 12688. The witness made
19 reference to the fact that 215 citizens of Serb ethnicity, in relation to
20 the municipality of Vogosca, where there were representatives of
21 Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats, they sent a petition actually to this Vogosca
22 Municipal Assembly to ask for banning of sale of Serb houses to Muslims
23 and not to prohibit Muslims from building houses in that village.
24 If I could have 65 ter number 90235 on the screen, please?
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask for Madam Sutherland
1 to let us know exactly what this document is? The Chamber doesn't know
2 what this document is.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: The document that's on the screen is a
4 transcript of a speech by Mr. Karadzic in relation to the plebiscite of
5 the Serb people in November 1991, which was what was referred to by the
6 witness yesterday.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where was it given?
8 JUDGE KWON: Which is not used at this moment. Let's move on,
9 Mr. Karadzic. She is not using this.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: I may come back to it, Your Honour.
11 In relation to --
12 Q. Mr. Muracevic, did you write a book?
13 A. Yes. I wrote a book, "The killed and missing victims of crimes
14 in the Vogosca municipality area in the period from 1992 to 1995." There
15 is an excerpt from that book of mine that we can see on the screen, where
16 I talked about a part of a statement by Mr. Karadzic around the time of
17 the plebiscite, when he addressed a meeting, and then in the footnote,
18 you can see that the source for that is the bulletin of the state
19 commission for compiling facts about war crimes on the territory of the
20 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. In further text, the bulletin. And that
21 contains all the information that I was referring to.
22 Q. And when you mentioned this in your testimony --
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think this is just another
24 way of getting in the same topic which we again say is beyond the scope
25 of the cross-examination. Whether it's the speech directly or his
1 writing about the speech on some other occasions, it's the same thing.
2 So we maintain our objection. I wonder also if Ms. Sutherland could
3 advise us of when this was disclosed to us? We don't seem to recall it.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: This was disclosed pursuant to Rule 66(B) in --
5 I will find the date. Your Honour, if I may respond to Mr. Robinson,
6 this is not simply a way of getting these documents in through another
7 way. I am showing during the cross-examination, and I should have been
8 more clear, Mr. Karadzic, this witness, they were talking about
9 Karadzic's speech, and where he said that land should not be sold to
10 Muslims, and the witness mentioned a document that he had seen that was a
11 petition of 215. And Mr. Karadzic said, "Have you seen this -- where is
12 this in your previous statements?" And he said, "I have said it before
13 several times." I am simply taking the witness to -- to his book to show
14 that he did mention it in 2002, and we actually have the petition of 215,
15 which I would like to exhibit.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: But I simply wanted to take the witness to his
18 book first to see if he would recognise this document.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, the petition I think is --
20 very clearly comes out of the cross-examination but Dr. Karadzic's speech
21 does not.
22 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for another clarification
24 of when the book was disclosed to me? If the witness has written a book,
25 the Defence should have had the book. Secondly --
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: The book was disclosed to Mr. Karadzic on the
2 13th of October, 2009.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And the second question, everything
4 turned on whether the witness saw my speech publicly or whether he got it
5 from the state security. Footnote 3 confirms that this witness was
6 coached on the basis of documents of the state security.
7 JUDGE KWON: No further intervention. Let's move on.
8 Ms. Sutherland.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we go to the next footnote -- the next
10 page, please, in this document?
11 Q. And do we see there, Mr. Muracevic, reference -- the footnote 4?
12 A. Yes, yes, I see it.
13 Q. And is that the document relating to the 200 -- the petition of
15 A. That is that document. It's part of the documents that we found
16 in the municipal building which were handed over to be preserved. That
17 is that document.
18 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Not receiving the translation, Your Honour.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have the footnote 4
21 as well as footnote 3 read by the witness so that the interpreters can
22 translate them? Could the witness please read them out so they could be
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Could you read footnote 4,
25 Mr. Muracevic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Footnote 4 states the archives of
2 the institutes for the investigation of crimes against humanity and
3 international law in Sarajevo, from now on referred to as AIIZ, number --
4 inventory number 31185, citizens of the village of Krivoglavci,
5 municipality of Vogosca, to the president of the Assembly of the
6 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and others, beginning, "Esteemed
8 This is something that the population of the village of
9 Krivoglavci sent by Serb inhabitants. It's a petition sent to the
10 Municipal Assembly of Vogosca and many other addresses, including the
11 president of the Assembly of the Socialist Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. Actually it's a document that I found in the
13 building of the Vogosca Municipal Assembly, and that was handed over to
14 the archives of the institute for them to keep the document, this
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would kindly like to ask the
17 witness just to read footnote number 3. He's read footnote 4. Let him
18 read footnote 3 so that we can see what is the basis for the testimony of
19 this witness, so that we can see whether he's testifying based on his own
20 experience or on the basis of archival material that was provided to him.
21 This witness is not testifying as an expert witness.
22 JUDGE KWON: No, it's not -- but it's fair enough to ask the
23 witness to read out footnote 3. Can we go back to page 32?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: Could you read out note 3?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you allow me just
2 a couple of words about footnote 4.
3 JUDGE KWON: Madam Sutherland will come back to you if necessary.
4 At this moment could you kindly read footnote 3 for our benefit?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Footnote 3 states:
6 "Bulletin for the state commission for gathering facts on war
7 crimes on the territory of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina" in -- for
8 the text referred to as the bulletin number 7, February 1994, pages 3 and
9 4. This is a bulletin that was printed and it was available to the
11 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
12 JUDGE KWON: No, Mr. Karadzic. No, Mr. Karadzic. Yes,
13 Ms. Sutherland?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just 4, can we look at 4 just to
15 see the year, please?
16 JUDGE KWON: He read out and we can see it later.
17 Ms. Sutherland, please continue.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour. Can I have
19 65 ter number 90233 on the screen, please? Your Honours, I'm sorry, I
20 don't have an English translation of this document.
21 Q. Mr. Muracevic, do you recognise what's on the screen?
22 A. I do. This is precisely the petition containing 215 signatures
23 of citizens. Not only did I find the document in the municipal building,
24 when we entered it in 1996, but as the secretary of the local commune,
25 I was present at the municipal council meeting when this material was on
1 the agenda before the conflict broke out in the Vogosca municipality.
2 This is one of the first documents that the delegates or the deputies, I
3 don't know how they were referred to at the time, of the Serbian
4 Democratic Party at the time, submitted to the Municipal Assembly of
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: I tender that document, Your Honour. If we can
7 go to the second page, actually, just to -- so that the witness and the
8 Court can -- and Mr. Karadzic can see the second page.
9 JUDGE KWON: So the footnote 4 we saw before refers to this
10 document, Mr. Witness?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct, Your Honour.
12 JUDGE KWON: But I remember that footnote 4 does not bear a date,
13 does it?
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour, just an archive broad number of
15 the institute.
16 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Are you tendering the excerpt of his
17 book as well?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: I'm sorry, Your Honour. We can see the archive
19 broad number. The one that is in footnote 4 of the book with the broad
20 number is what is in the stamp at the bottom of the document on page 2.
21 JUDGE KWON: I see.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: 3-1185.
23 JUDGE KWON: Are you tendering both documents, the excerpt of his
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I think that's been read into the
1 record, the relevant pages. I would leave it for Your Honours and -- but
2 I seek to --
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, why don't you admit them both.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: We will actually upload the cover page of the
5 witness's book.
6 JUDGE KWON: So we will give the numbers. We will mark that for
8 MR. ROBINSON: About the book --
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 MR. ROBINSON: I'm having some problems, I apologise for this,
11 but looking at the disclosure letter of the 13th of October, 2009,
12 I don't find that the book is included there. It's 20 pages long and I'm
13 looking quickly so maybe I missed it, and that's also a disclosure of
14 materials relating to the death of individuals in Bosnia pursuant to a
15 Rule 66(B) request. And if indeed the book was disclosed to us in that
16 way, I don't think that that's really an adequate disclosure to prepare
17 us to cross-examine this witness, and I'm going to ask, unfortunately,
18 that we allow this witness or ask this witness to remain so that we could
19 review the book this evening and, if necessary, put further questions to
20 him tomorrow, unless there is a better showing of how this was called to
21 our attention. It's our fault for missing it if that's the case, but we
22 truly did -- all of us are seeing this for the first time and I don't
23 doubt it was disclosed to us at some point, but somehow we didn't connect
24 it with this witness and we're not -- we are just taken by surprise by
25 the fact that there is some book written by this witness that we should
1 have read it.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, in the index that was provided,
3 it's -- the description is: "Book by Eset Muracevic in relation to
4 events in Vogosca municipality between 1992 and 1995, presented to
5 Stephen Margetts by Bilal Hasanovic [phoen]." So we gave the title of
6 the book and the source of how we got the book.
7 JUDGE KWON: And it was in 199-- in 2009.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: 13th of October, 2009.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. I thought it would be in the interests
10 of the Defence to admit that book but may I take it that you are opposed
11 to admitting those two pages of the book?
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we are. Simply because we don't feel we had
13 adequate notice of it.
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit the petition only. We mark
15 it for identification. Pending translation.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P2399, Your Honours.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Ms. Sutherland.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, we also have the document that was
19 referred to in footnote 3, but I don't think that that is necessary.
20 JUDGE KWON: It's up to you, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Mr. Muracevic, yesterday Mr. Karadzic, at transcript page 12678,
23 or 77, and again was talking about documents that -- that you had found
24 in relation to the number of persons that were no longer living in the
25 Vogosca municipality, and I offered the two documents yesterday to
1 Mr. Karadzic as -- during his cross-examination.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 90230, and we
3 apologise for the quality of this document in advance, Your Honour, of
4 the B/C/S.
5 Q. Do you recognise the document that's on the screen,
6 Mr. Muracevic?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. And this is a decision appointing a municipal commission for the
9 1993 census and the -- it's being issued by the chairman of the
10 Executive Board of Vogosca municipality; is that right?
11 A. Yes, that's correct.
12 Q. And as a result of that decision, a further document that you
13 referred to yesterday was produced.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 90231 on the
16 Q. Do you recognise what -- that document?
17 A. I do recognise this document. This is an excerpt of listed
18 inhabitants living in the areas controlled by the local Serbs relating to
19 this decision to form this commission, census commission.
20 Q. And this is the first results -- the first results for the
21 Ticisko [phoen] districts and hamlets and it's dated the 17th of June,
22 1993. You said that there were no inhabitants of Svrake left in the
23 municipality at that time.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could go to page 2 in the B/C/S and page 2
25 also of the English.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have a remark. This is not an
2 official census but this is a list made by the municipality of those
3 villages that were accessible to it. So that it could carry out a social
4 policy, that it could provide services to the inhabitants. This is a
5 list of persons who are living there and those who have moved there in
6 order to be able to provide them with benefits, but there are villages
7 where it was not possible to go but that doesn't mean that there is
8 nobody living in those villages.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, that comment was unnecessary.
10 JUDGE KWON: You're not giving evidence and, if necessary, after
11 the re-examination, you may ask for further cross-examination. The way
12 how you intervene during the course of re-examination is not helpful
14 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. And we can see, Mr. Muracevic, can we not, for the village of
17 Svrake, that there are no Muslims residing there as of June 1993; is that
19 A. In this document, you can see that there were no Muslims there.
20 Svrake was under the control of the local Serbs. They could have gone
21 in. They were in control of it, in that area, in that period. All these
22 settlements that are referred to in this list were under full control of
23 the Serbian authorities. Each one of these hamlets and villages could be
24 accessed by them.
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender this document and
1 I also seek to tender the document 90230 which -- which is the decision
2 of Koprica which, in fact, says:
3 "Pursuant to conclusions from the 70th session of the government
4 of the Republika Srpska, a committee will be formed."
5 JUDGE KWON: Did we have the English translation?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, both of them will be admitted.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P2400 and 2401, respectively,
9 Your Honours.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm sorry about this.
11 We are dealing with some exhibits that we're really not familiar with,
12 but if you could go back to the petition, 90233, the 65 ter number, that
13 was -- you've admitted, I'm wondering when that was disclosed to us
14 because in look -- if you could call that up and look at it on your
15 screen, I think it would be useful --
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, that --
17 sorry. We obtained that document this morning at around -- whatever the
18 fax header says on the top of the page.
19 MR. ROBINSON: I think that should have been noted. First of
20 all, they needed permission to add it to the Rule 65 ter list. We just
21 noticed it ourselves when we were looking at it. It's a fax -- it's the
22 2nd of March, 2011. Otherwise we were under the impression that this was
23 a document that had been part of the 2 million pages that have been
24 disclosed to us sometime within the last few years. Now we find out that
25 it was -- it's been offered without any motion to add it to the 65 ter
1 list. It's never been disclosed to us. I think that it ought to be
2 withdrawn from admission as a sanction for this kind of way of
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, this is re-examination, not
6 JUDGE KWON: The petition was specifically mentioned during the
7 course of cross-examination.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, it was. It was, but this is a document that
9 hasn't been disclosed to us before.
10 MR. TIEGER: Your Honour, if I may, I'm sorry to intervene --
11 JUDGE KWON: Let's leave it. Let me consult my colleagues.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, can you tell us, this document, would
14 you have been taken ex improviso by this, by surprise?
15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we are taken by surprise by this.
16 JUDGE BAIRD: You have been, have you?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: This petition was raised during the course of
19 cross-examination and we are of the view that the Prosecution is entitled
20 to present this document, and if necessary, the Defence is allowed to put
21 further questions about this document, given the timing of this
22 disclosure. Let's move on.
23 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, Your Honour, it's the Prosecution
24 position that documents used in re-examination don't need to be disclosed
25 to the Defence prior to being used in re-examination.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Prior to -- prior to being used, just before
2 you start the re-examination. I think so, yes.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 MR. ROBINSON: So, Mr. President, just so that we are on the same
6 page in case this arises again. Just as we do when we start the
7 cross-examination, we e-mail a list of all the documents we intend to
8 use, so at the very latest the Prosecution should disclose at the
9 commencement of the re-examination these documents, not that it would
10 have made much difference but I understand that would be the procedure
11 for disclosure on re-examination. If the document has not previously
12 been disclosed to us, then at the time the re-examination commences, an
13 e-mail should be sent to us and the Chamber in which the list of
14 documents to be used in re-examination are disclosed. Wouldn't that be
15 could be consistent with the same principles that we operate under for
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but re-examination comes
18 as a result of cross-examination, and you know, we are doing this on the
19 fly, and if we -- something that is said five minutes before the end of
20 the cross-examination, we react to it by getting a document and putting
21 it to the witness in a certain circumstance. And I think that by putting
22 this -- what is requested by Mr. Robinson is wholly unnecessary and
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say a word?
1 JUDGE KWON: No. I -- not this time, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Do I have the right to respond to
3 what Ms. Sutherland said with regard to cross-examination?
4 JUDGE KWON: I said no, Mr. Karadzic. Yes, the Prosecution is
5 entitled to use documents which was not listed on the 65 ter list, if
6 that topic is triggered by the cross-examination. And not because of the
7 timing of this disclosure of this document, but newness of the content to
8 the Defence, we will allow the Defence to put questions, if necessary, on
9 that basis. Let's move on.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the newness of the content of this
11 document, it's not new information. We have other -- another exhibit,
12 for example, which has information along the same lines as this one.
13 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber was of the view that -- Defence was not
14 in the position to know the content of this petition.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What did I ask -- then I will be
16 granted additional time?
17 JUDGE KWON: Only in relation to this petition. Yes,
18 Ms. Sutherland.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Q. Mr. Muracevic, following on from the decision pursuant to a
21 conclusion of the government of Republika Srpska to set up the census
22 committee and then the results of the census committee in June 1993, you
23 then went on in your testimony yesterday to talk about 13.157 people
24 being expelled from the municipality. And Mr. Karadzic asked you about
25 that figure and where you got that figure from and you said that, you
1 know, you had the documents and that you had brought the documents with
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter 90232 on the screen.
4 Q. Do you recognise this document?
5 A. Yes, I do. I compiled it by comparing the official census
6 numbers in Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1991 and the census conducted in
7 June 1993, by the Serbian authorities in the territory under their
8 control. By making these comparisons, I included only the settlements
9 that they listed and that they -- that were under their control.
10 Q. And when you say the documents listed in their document, that's
11 the document that we have just seen, the 17th of June, 1993, document?
12 A. Yes. I'm talking about these very documents.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to object. This witness is
14 not a demographic expert or any expert at all. He is an eyewitness.
15 Therefore, I need additional time for cross-examination. Here we have
16 elements and data introduced herein that were not comprised by the
17 testimony of this witness. And in addition to that, I feel that I have
18 been ambushed because there are things that I am not aware of and that
19 I wasn't warned about. I'm talking about the book, the petition and the
20 REST of it.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic was querying with the
22 witness where he was coming up with this figure of 13.157. This is
23 simply to show that the witness compiled this document from the Serb
24 figures against the 1991 census figures. And the 1991 census figures is
25 65 ter number 00242.
1 JUDGE KWON: And this is part of the document he brought.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: He brought this document and it was disclosed to
3 the Defence on Sunday. I seek to tender --
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This is handwriting by the witness.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: We don't see any problem in admitting this but shall
7 we mark it for identification? Or is it unnecessary?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, on Monday evening,
9 and this is an expert work produced by this witness. This is a document
10 that we are looking at. And I received it on Monday night. It was
11 disclosed to me after I returned from the court on Monday night.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it doesn't take an expert to
13 compile a chart.
14 JUDGE KWON: The weight of this document is to be decided by the
15 Chamber later on.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I can just take the witness to the second,
18 third and fourth pages. Just -- sorry, I should have done that before
19 I sought to tender it.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Mr. Muracevic, can you just explain to the Court what is on the
23 second, third and fourth pages, please?
24 A. These are the results of the census, the 1991 official census
25 carried out in Bosnia and Herzegovina, but it refers to the entire
1 Vogosca municipality. Listed here are the villages and settlements that
2 were also the subject of the census carried out by the Serbian
3 authorities in 1993. So by comparing the figures from the official
4 census and the figures that they reached, we got the numbers that were
5 mentioned in the previous document. This is an integral part of this
6 document. It is the structure of Vogosca municipality divided into
7 villages and settlements, and the number of residents per nationality
8 that lived in 1991 in those settlements and villages. Specifically, if
9 we speak about my local commune of Svrake, that's the fourth row from the
10 top, there used to be 1.245 residents; Muslims, 1.036; 170 Serbs;
11 two Croats; 21, the others -- Yugoslavs and the others.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: That information is already on the record.
13 Your Honour, I seek to tender that document.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I think it's safer to mark it for
16 identification pending translation.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
18 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P2402, Your Honours.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE KWON: The number is 2400, 2400?
21 THE REGISTRAR: MFI P2402.
22 JUDGE KWON: 02. If necessary, Mr. Karadzic, as we indicated, we
23 will allow you to put questions in relation to the petition, the document
24 we saw previously.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I would also like to ask
1 questions regarding the census, because this was not mentioned in
2 examination-in-chief. I just have a few questions.
3 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
4 Q. [Interpretation] Witness, did you find this document in Vogosca
5 municipality building in 1996? I'm talking about the petition.
6 A. Mr. Accused, I found this document in 1996 when we arrived in
7 Vogosca. However, that was not the first time that I saw that document.
8 I had seen it much earlier because as a secretary of the local commune,
9 I attended meetings of the Vogosca Municipal Assembly and I had an
10 opportunity to be in the municipal building when this petition was
11 discussed and was on the agenda of the meeting, which is before the 1992
12 conflict broke out. So that was in the period after the multi-party
13 elections and 1991. I cannot remember exactly which session that was,
14 and on which date it was held. However, I did see this document before,
15 and as a secretary of the local commune, I did not only see it, I would
16 regularly receive materials for the Assembly meetings, and as part of the
17 materials that I received for these -- ahead of these sessions I saw this
18 document as well.
19 Q. Yesterday, after the adjournment of this Court, who did you talk
21 A. What do you mean, after the adjournment? What are you talking
22 about? Are you talking about the courthouse or somewhere in town?
23 Q. Who did you discuss this document with today in order to obtain
25 A. I personally did not talk to anyone. I suppose that the
1 Prosecutor -- I personally did not talk to anyone about obtaining this
2 document. However, since the place of custody of this document is
3 mentioned in the footnote of my book, I suppose that it was the
4 Prosecution who received the document.
5 Q. Somebody should have been called at the institute and ordered
6 this document to be delivered.
7 A. You are asking me something that I was not in a position to do
8 anything about. I did not contact anyone in Sarajevo yesterday,
9 particularly not in -- with a view to obtaining a document.
10 Q. So this document was in public domain in 1991; is that correct?
11 A. Well, the petition was being mentioned. However, I can't say
12 whether it was published in any of the media. Looking at the number of
13 the addresses that it was sent to, I think that it was in the public
15 Q. And this is not the original, because there is a note which says
16 that the original petition is being kept by the secretary of the
17 Republican Assembly and it can be reviewed if necessary. Do you have the
18 date of this petition? And there must be the date on the original, on
19 the incoming stamp when it was received by the BH Assembly.
20 A. As a secretary of the local commune, I received copies of the
21 material that was being sent to all the deputies that were in the
22 municipal council. So I did not receive the original that was received
23 by the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was anyway not necessary for
24 me to get the original.
25 Q. So what is the connection that you establish between this and my
1 information relating to my conversation with Izetbegovic concerning your
3 A. I did not establish any link between this petition and your
4 conversation with Mr. Izetbegovic. It was mentioned only in the context
5 of your fiery speeches delivered with regard to the plebiscite, when you
6 specifically and personally said that in the areas that were going to be
7 under the Serb control, no sale of land would be allowed to Muslims or
8 the construction of any residential facilities by the Muslims in the
9 Serb-controlled areas. I also quoted the portion in which you said that
10 each foundation made by Muslims would be blown up in those territories
11 and the petition itself was mentioned in the sense that in a certain way,
12 representatives of the Serbian Democratic Party who were on the municipal
13 council, one of the documents that was presented at the joint session
14 which was attended by the Serbs and Muslims alike, they were requesting
15 the ban on the sale of land by the Serbs to the Muslims, and not to have
16 them building houses in that village. So this is the relation that
17 I mentioned.
18 Q. Thank you. You don't know the date, but do you know if I ever
19 said this publicly or was it a document that was relating to a party
21 A. By reading the footnote and I think I provided the -- an
22 explanation of where this quotation came from, what the source was, and
23 this portion that I quoted as your words, I made a reference to a
24 document that was publicly published in the bulletin, which is mentioned
25 in one of the footnotes.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Ms. Sutherland?
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Karadzic put the very same
3 question to the witness yesterday.
4 JUDGE KWON: I think you've exhausted with this. We will allow
5 you one or two questions about the census. Just one or two.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. At least one question relating to the census. Mr. Muracevic, was
8 the sentence that I said, did it refer to the local Muslims?
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I thought your ruling was that he
11 could ask questions in relation to the petition only.
12 JUDGE KWON: No, no. During the course -- when he raised the
13 question, we discussed it.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Okay.
15 JUDGE KWON: But my apology not to have asked you, but we agreed
16 to allow him to put questions in relation to that census, one or two
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Muracevic, what I said to my party colleagues in relation to
20 my conversation with Mr. Izetbegovic, did it refer to the ban on the
21 purchase of land by the local Muslims or did it refer to the land that
22 was intended to be sold to Turkish immigrants that would alter the
23 demographic composition of Bosnia?
24 A. Mr. Karadzic, I don't know what you meant when you said
25 "Muslims." Whenever you said "Muslims," I understood that to mean all
1 the citizens of that ethnicity. I cannot guess, second guess, what you
2 had in mind because I didn't have an opportunity to hear what you really
3 meant. When you said Muslims --
4 JUDGE KWON: How is that question related to that census? Yes,
5 Ms. Sutherland?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: I was raising it for that reason, Your Honour.
7 In fact, this question doesn't relate to the census. It goes back again
8 to something else.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I understood that I was entitled to
10 two questions about the petition and the census respectively. That's why
11 I wanted to ask whether this document shows what I actually said to
13 JUDGE KWON: Then I think -- do you have any further questions
14 with respect to that census we saw?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. Please.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Witness, tell me this: During the war, were any Muslims in
18 the following villages, Hotonj, Kamenica, Kobilja Glava, Perca, Tihovici,
19 Ugljesici, and Ugorsko, and I'll stop there. Were the Muslims living in
20 those villages throughout the whole war?
21 A. Mr. Karadzic, your question goes beyond the census and the
22 documents that we saw because the census that was compiled by the Serbian
23 authorities --
24 Q. I'm asking you what I'm asking you.
25 A. Parts of Kobilja Glava and some of these settlements were under
1 the control of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and, yes, Muslims indeed
2 lived there. However, the question of comparing the 1991 census and the
3 1993 census and the figures contained there took into account only parts
4 of the settlements that were under the Serbian control, and not the
5 territory that was under the control of the BH Army. Excuse me.
6 JUDGE KWON: Don't argue with the witness.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Sir, were these boxes left blank, although they were on the list?
9 So everything was left blank as if nobody lived in those villages?
10 A. I would really like to see this document again, where the summary
11 is shown. So in the villages that you controlled, before actually they
12 came under your control, a certain number of Muslims, Croats and the
13 others used to live, Yugoslavs and other ethnicities. So in my village,
14 in Svrake, 1.036 Muslims lived; whereas in the 1993 census, made by the
15 Serbian authorities, it is shown that there was not a single Muslim
16 living in that village anymore. The village of Tihovici was 100 per cent
17 Muslim, and in 1991 there were 367 Muslims living there, while your
18 census takers, in 1993, did not find a single Muslim there, and they
19 couldn't find them there because on the 4th of July, this village was
20 attacked by the Army of Republika Srpska and killed over 30 residents of
21 the village and expelled the rest of them. So these are comparative
22 indicators of the situation in the villages and places that you held
23 under your control, and it also shows that before you gained control of
24 these territories, a certain number of Muslims used to live. So these
25 are the territories that were exclusively under the control of the
1 Serbian army. And in 1991, there were 11.331 Muslims, whereas in 1993
2 there were only 210 of them. There were 660 Croats, and in 1993, there
3 were 302. And as for the rest, Yugoslavs and other ethnicities,
4 accounted for 1.098 in 1991, and in 1993, your census taker registered
5 only 239 members of this group. So --
6 JUDGE KWON: I think that's more than sufficient. Let's conclude
7 here. As for the -- Mr. Robinson's request to ask the witness to remain
8 until tomorrow to be asked further questions about his book, given the
9 timing of the disclosure, we find it necessary and we do not grant -- we
10 deny that motion, if that is a motion.
11 That concludes your evidence, Mr. Muracevic.
12 Thank you for your indulgence and thank you for your coming to
13 The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
15 [The witness withdrew]
16 JUDGE KWON: I'm wondering whether there is any point to bring in
17 the next witness. I leave it in your hands, Mr. Tieger or Mr. Hayden.
18 MR. HAYDEN: Your Honour, I'm looking at the clock. I think
19 we've only got six minutes left. It's probably not worth beginning
21 JUDGE KWON: We didn't progress very well today. Thanks to the
22 indulgence of the court staff and the interpreters and the stenographers.
23 We -- as indicated, we would be able to sit tomorrow five 1-hour
24 sessions, from 9 until 3.15.
25 And next week, Mr. Tieger, it seems implausible to sit for an
1 extended hours, given the court schedule. There is a -- another trial in
2 the afternoon.
3 Well, tomorrow, 9.00.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.23 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of March,
6 2011, at 9.00 a.m.