Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13206

 1                           Friday, 11 March 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  Good morning, everybody.

 7             Dr. Karadzic, if you would like to commence your

 8     cross-examination.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Good morning, everyone,

10     Your Excellencies.

11                           WITNESS:  KDZ354 [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   Before I begin my cross-examination, I would like to tell you

17     that I would rather not conduct it at all because of my feelings of

18     solidarity for you because of all the horrors that you lived through, and

19     I would kindly ask you to clarify the circumstances in Grbavica during

20     those months rather than deal with the horrific events that you yourself

21     experienced.  So I would kindly ask you to work together with me so that

22     we can see exactly what was happening.

23             In your amalgamated statement, paragraph 7, you describe the

24     confiscation or seizure of cars committed by young men with masks on

25     their heads.  How long did this last, this confiscation of vehicles?

Page 13207

 1        A.   When I talked about masks on the heads, what I meant was the

 2     date, the 1st to the 2nd of March night, and what I saw in the media.

 3     That was the first thing, because this happened immediately close to the

 4     place where I lived.  However, this continued later in a period.  I

 5     cannot establish it precisely, but I looked from my window as they were

 6     stopping cars, standing on the street.  And under threat of weapons, they

 7     would get the person out of the car, then they would get in the car.  The

 8     person would be left behind just looking at them.  They would drive off

 9     quickly.

10             I saw that.  I used to see that, not once but a number of times.

11     And first of all, I was thinking how is this possible?  How can I be

12     seeing this at all?  This went on for days, let's say.  I can't really

13     specify exactly.  I mean, it wouldn't be fair.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did I understand you correctly that it wasn't

15     necessarily night, that they did this in daylight as well?

16        A.   Yes, of course.  What I'm saying that I saw happened in daylight.

17     The first time I saw it, though, it happened at night, because we were

18     woken up by these voices.  We live on the high -- ground floor, and you

19     could hear -- I mean, the windowpanes were broken in this room where we

20     were sleeping, so we improvised something, but it felt like we were

21     directly on the street.  These voices woke me up and I could see and hear

22     something.  This is speaking about the events that happened at night.

23        Q.   Thank you.  I need to wait for the translation because we speak

24     the same language.  Was it possible to see roughly the age of these

25     masked persons?

Page 13208

 1        A.   Well, I think that they were younger men.  I could conclude that

 2     by their gestures, by their behaviour, by the way they looked.  They

 3     looked like younger people in their 20s, 30s.  Twenty-five to 30, perhaps

 4     a little bit older, but in any case, younger people.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In April were there any policemen on the street to

 6     whom those people whose cars were seized could complain?

 7        A.   No, there weren't any.  This happened so quickly that one

 8     couldn't possibly react in any other way than just to be left standing on

 9     the street.  I remember one gentleman who came out.  He was holding some

10     kind of overcoat in his hand and he was waiting.  Perhaps he thought it

11     was some kind of inspection or something, a flash inspection that was

12     going to pass, but he was turned out of his car so quickly that he just

13     stood like that, and as he was looking, they already drove away.  You

14     could see that they were driving away towards Vraca, the intersection

15     towards Vraca, leading from Zagrebacka Street towards Vraca.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Well, I don't want to stay on this topic too long,

17     but can you just tell us whether you had any information that the cars

18     were taken to a specific place or could their owners see them around

19     later?  You don't know anything about that?

20        A.   Well, I don't know.  It would be ridiculous to conclude that they

21     could look for the car because of the things that followed after that.  I

22     mean, it just wasn't realistic.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13209

 1        Q.   In paragraph 22 of your amalgamated statement you say that Serbs

 2     and Muslims were leaving Grbavica in large numbers at that time while it

 3     was still possible to leave Grbavica.  Is this correct?

 4        A.   Yes, you could say that.  There was no rule, which is why I said

 5     that people were leaving.  Some took more things with them, some took

 6     less, depending on what they expected.  I could perhaps say what they

 7     maybe knew, what they assumed would happen.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Are you able to say until when it was possible to

 9     leave without any organised way of crossing over or asking for some

10     particular permission or paper?  For how long was it possible to leave

11     Grbavica just like that and come back?

12        A.   Well, I'll tell you about my own case specifically.  On the

13     27th of May -- actually, on the 26th of May, I tried to cross over

14     together with my sister, because her family had crossed over to the other

15     side, crossing over the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge.  They went to their

16     cousins.  We tried to cross at the same place.  We still had some food in

17     the house, and we wanted to carry all of that across for her children,

18     because the most important thing was for them not to feel any shortages.

19     It wasn't much, but whatever you would usually find in a house.

20             We tried that day.  We didn't succeed because there were guards

21     all over the place.  We were stopped.  They asked us where we were going.

22     We explained that we wanted to cross over.  They said you can't do that,

23     so we gave up that day, and then the following day, on the 27th, we tried

24     again, and then we were fortunate and did cross over.  We passed through

25     an inspection.  The person was asking us -- there was some shops close

Page 13210

 1     by.  Everything was open, everything was being taken out.  You could see

 2     everything.  You just kind of register that, but you try more not to

 3     notice than to notice.  And somehow we managed to reach the bridge.  It

 4     was a small pedestrian bridge leading towards the Hotel Bristol, and we

 5     did cross over.

 6        Q.   All right.  Thank you very much.  When you say "taken out,"

 7     things were being taken out, are you saying that they were being robbed

 8     or things were being bought?

 9        A.   No, it was looting and robbery.  Glass was broken.  There was

10     packaging, shoe boxes, all kinds of stuff that were left over just strewn

11     about.  It was a small area, and the buildings were very close together,

12     so all these other shops and facilities were also close together, and

13     they were there at the same place at that time.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry, Your Honours, but I'm just wondering if

16     Madam Witness could be cautioned to make a small pause before she answers

17     to allow for our colleagues to catch up in the interpretation.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  It's easily --

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, no need to apologise because you're not

21     used to it, and it's easily done.  Where both the questioner and the

22     person being questioned speak the same language, it's natural that you

23     have a conversation, and exceptional though our interpreters are, they

24     can't work magic.

25             THE ACCUSED:  May I, sir?

Page 13211

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You returned on the same day?

 3        A.   Yes, we returned the same day.  I can't really say what time it

 4     was, but judging by the panic in town, we could see that something was

 5     happening, but since we were in a part of town where the telephones were

 6     not working, I'm talking about Ciglana, on our way back we met a

 7     colleague of mine from work who asked me what's happening with me, where

 8     I was, and I explained and he said, Where are you going now?  And I said

 9     I'm going back home.  He asked me am I crazy.  Do I know?  Did I know

10     what happened today?  I really didn't know and then when we came to the

11     Kosevo Street leading towards the Presidency building, we saw horrific

12     images.  I will find it very difficult to forget them.  There were

13     different cars, vehicles, ambulances, private cars rushing towards the

14     hospital.  The sirens were on.  Later we found out that a shell had

15     struck and that the massacre happened in which two of my professors were

16     killed.  Perhaps there was some confusion there.  One professor, I

17     apologise, was actually wounded, Milan Banjac, and the other professor,

18     who used to teach mathematics to me, he was killed.

19             And we came back.  It took a while.  We had to run across

20     pedestrian crossings, jump over things.  There was some improvised

21     shelters to protect us from fire.  We were running across.  My sister was

22     a little bit -- well, I had a problem.  I was always a bit braver.  I had

23     to keep encouraging her, going back for her.  Then we reached the small

24     bridge, and we crossed over that same bridge.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And your sister, she definitely left with her family;

Page 13212

 1     is that right?

 2        A.   Yes.  My sister actually followed after her family, which was

 3     already at Ciglana, like I said before.  My mother was a big problem for

 4     me, and if I regret anything, it's that I never -- I didn't leave

 5     Grbavica, but I couldn't prevail on my mother who didn't want to leave.

 6     She believed that all these things wouldn't happen.  And that day when we

 7     came back, perhaps I wouldn't have even come back, and the reason why I

 8     came back was actually that we couldn't get in touch with her by phone.

 9     Phones where we were were still operating till June.  So my sister and I

10     couldn't get in touch with my mother on the phone.  I could imagine that

11     she was worried.  She could have assumed that we were in some bread line.

12     I mean, it would be easy to imagine that we had gone to buy something.

13     And this is why I returned and I stayed with my mother after my sister

14     left, which actually turned out to be quite dramatic as she told us

15     later.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I would kindly ask you to answer more succinctly, and

17     I will try to put my questions more briefly as well.

18             I read somewhere in your statements that already at that time in

19     Grbavica you were not getting bread from the federal part of Sarajevo.

20        A.   Well, this is a situation that I described.  Bread would arrive

21     in front of the Mis.  Those from Grbavica would know that that is on the

22     intersection leading towards Vraca.  The bread would be delivered there.

23     We would wait in line.  We would take the bread.  So I'm already talking

24     about the period of June, after the 11th of June.  Until then it was

25     possible to take -- to get bread -- I mean, there were some armed people

Page 13213

 1     standing there, but if there was enough bread, you felt lucky you would

 2     get it.  If not, then you would have to find another way of dealing with

 3     it.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And how many times did you personally leave Grbavica?

 5        A.   You mean in that period?

 6        Q.   Yes.

 7        A.   The last time I left Grbavica was on the 25th [as interpreted] of

 8     May, and then when I came back I didn't leave anymore.  I did try

 9     sometime in June, but I didn't go farther than Soping.  I didn't get

10     farther than the military command or something.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the transcript please change,

12     the witness said the 27th and it says the 25th.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   I can see in your statements, then, you tried on a number of

15     occasions to leave Grbavica and that this was not possible.  Can you

16     briefly tell us what was the procedure after mid-June when somebody

17     wanted to leave Grbavica?  Do you remember that it was necessary for

18     somebody to put you on a list, somebody from the federal part, to put you

19     on the list?  And generally, how was it done that you could cross in

20     buses over the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge?

21        A.   I cannot talk about the federal part.  I can only speak about

22     myself.  I didn't have a telephone, because it was physically removed.

23     Even the telephone sets were broken.  Therefore, I had no possibility to

24     get in touch with anyone.

25             There was a young neighbour of mine, a young girl, who

Page 13214

 1     immediately after she'd left Grbavica got killed by a shell.  She came to

 2     our place because she had heard what my mother and I had gone through,

 3     and she said if we wanted to be put on a list that would then be sent to

 4     the command, because that was the procedure, she said that all you need

 5     to give me is your ID card.  I said, "Amila, we don't have our ID cards

 6     and I can't do that."

 7        Q.   Thank you.  But did you ever find out that at certain periods

 8     there were some rounds of groups of Muslims going from Grbavica to the

 9     federal part and the Serbs coming into Grbavica, that all of that was

10     conducted across the Brotherhood and Unity Bridge?

11        A.   I don't know about that period.

12        Q.   And when was this happening?

13        A.   That was later when one registered first and then required a

14     permit, and we were allowed to even bring some of our belongings with us,

15     but that was later.  I think it was in 1994.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us in more detail what kind of an

17     insignia were worn by these armed young men?  What did they have on their

18     caps?  Let's start with that.

19        A.   Well, we're talking about different periods.  There were

20     cockades.  There were caps with five-pointed stars at the beginning,

21     which looked a bit ridiculous, because I had always had a good opinion

22     about the Yugoslav Army.  And then they started wearing patches on their

23     jackets, which was a circular one with the inscription "The Army of

24     Republika Srpska," and a flag.  And we also had a sticker with this

25     insignia attached to our door to indicate that our flat had been

Page 13215

 1     inspected by the Army of Republika Srpska.

 2        Q.   Did that mean that there was no additional inspection required?

 3        A.   Well, that's what I thought too.  However, our neighbours told us

 4     that we need to put our name on the door, because it was known that there

 5     were Muslims there, because somebody was regularly reporting the

 6     situation.  So we had to put our family name on the door, and that's what

 7     we did.

 8        Q.   These weekend searches, who were the people who did that?  What

 9     did they wear, and what kind of insignia did they have?

10        A.   First of all, I am referring to soldiers in uniform, because

11     there were several instances.  I can't tell you exactly the number of

12     times it happened and was repeated.  The upper part was a uniform, and

13     the lower part of the outfit was the civilian clothes.

14             Two men would come, invariably, each time, and over and over

15     again you go through the same fear.  You can't explain things, and on the

16     other hand, you must try and act as normally as possible in order for

17     them not to realise that you were actually afraid.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any parts of Grbavica where it was unsafe

19     to go through, people had to run across, and do you remember if blankets

20     were put in the streets as a kind of barrier?

21        A.   I think that happened a little bit later, because I wasn't going

22     out much in that initial period.  A wall was even built in front of our

23     house overnight, it was a pretty high wall, a little bit higher than the

24     average height of a person, on the grounds that fire was coming from

25     Debelo Brdo and that protection was needed.  Although, if I'm being

Page 13216

 1     honest, no incident happened there.  At least I didn't see or hear

 2     anything happening at that particular spot.

 3             There were those blankets hanging along this route, and I'm

 4     talking about Grbavicka Street, which is opposite Vilsonovo Setaliste.

 5     They were erected on several places, but I'm talking about the nearest

 6     one that I could see.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  These searches that you mentioned in your statements

 8     took place more often than not over a weekend.  Did the same people

 9     always came, or did different people come to conduct these searches?

10        A.   Different people came.  I remember that from the previous group

11     or of the two, if there were two, I would recognise only one.  They would

12     go from flat to flat.  They would start with our flat and then move

13     onwards and upwards.  After that, our neighbours said that since the

14     front door was completely demolished and unhinged, that we should put

15     something to close the building.

16        Q.   You're talking about the -- the entrance door?

17        A.   No, no, no.  I'm talking about flats, because flats were forcibly

18     opened if they were empty, and there were quite a few flats in our

19     apartment building.  There were 16 of them.

20        Q.   And many people had left.

21        A.   Yes, they had.

22        Q.   Those who came to search the flats did not wear any masks?

23        A.   No, no, they didn't.

24        Q.   You are talking about how you went to the cellar where you could

25     find shelter during shelling.

Page 13217

 1        A.   That was part of subterranean part of the building, because it

 2     had windows almost of the same size as the ones that we had.  Therefore,

 3     they were so big that you couldn't feel safe at all, but we thought that

 4     that was at least a little bit safer than our flats.  That was a flat

 5     that belonged to a neighbour of ours who had left.  So it was not exactly

 6     an abandoned place.  It was simply a place where you can spend some time.

 7        Q.   How often did you go to this shelter?

 8        A.   Well, during the day we might have gone once, although I already

 9     started feeling certain of anxiety and awkwardness.  I -- it was kind of

10     looks that we received and the questions that were asked of us in terms

11     of why hadn't we crossed over, what were we doing there.  It sounded as

12     if they were concerned, but in most cases that was actually a message:

13     Go away so that we don't have problems.

14        Q.   You are talking about your neighbours who also used this same

15     shelter.

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.

17        Q.   How far or how close did the shells land in order for you to go

18     to the shelter?

19        A.   They fell rather close.  There were a couple of situations when

20     after we had made some makeshift -- or took the windows from the next

21     room and put it in the living-room another shell will -- would break

22     those windows again.  Now, what I'm talking about is what happened in the

23     close proximity to the building where I lived.

24        Q.   Was anyone killed close to your flat or your street in those

25     days?

Page 13218

 1        A.   I believe that a young girl was killed at the very beginning, and

 2     I think she lived in the neighbouring apartment building.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did it come from Debelo Brdo?  Where did it come?

 4        A.   Well, I can't tell you that.  There was, for example, a car that

 5     was parked nearby.  There were pieces of metal.  Although, I personally

 6     did not see the place where the shell landed.  I only see the effects,

 7     and they were obvious.

 8        Q.   In paragraphs 82 through to 91, you describe how, on the

 9     1st of October in 1992, a soldier forced you to give the key to your flat

10     that was subsequently sealed.  Then the military police explained to you

11     that that kind of behaviour was illegal and that it was not based on any

12     order.

13        A.   They didn't say that in so many words.  They only said that this

14     operation was aborted.  I even told them that this soldier introduced

15     himself as Simic.  Later I found out that he was from Zavidovici.  They

16     said that this operation was suspended and that no one was to leave

17     Grbavica.

18        Q.   Thank you.  You don't know to which unit this Simic man belonged?

19        A.   Oh, no, no, no.  He would introduce himself by putting his hand

20     on his handgun and telling me that I have to go out with him in order for

21     the flat to be searched.  That is something that caused a personal

22     distress for me, because it was night-time.  There was no electricity.

23     We had a couple of candles.  And this is where I stood and talked with

24     him.  He said he wanted to search the flat and that for that purpose he

25     needed the key.  I put the key in his hand.

Page 13219

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Simic came by himself on that occasion?

 2        A.   Yes.  Simic came by himself, and he said specifically, "I have a

 3     tip-off," and for quite some time later I had this fear, because he had a

 4     piece of paper with our names on it, and he said that he had received a

 5     tip-off about a mother and a daughter living there.  And every time,

 6     whenever I saw anyone holding a piece of paper similar to that one, it

 7     would take me some time to compose myself.

 8             So he went to our flat once.  He came out shortly afterwards.  My

 9     mother was not feeling well.  We were busy taking care of her.  However,

10     he told me that I should accompany him into my flat, allegedly to show

11     him where everything was.  I don't know.  It was pitch dark.  I think

12     that we didn't even have a candle.  We just had some improvised things.

13     Even that was running out, this material that we sort of improvised

14     lighting.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You say that electricity was cut off quite often.

16        A.   Occasionally the power supply was cut off, and one had to adapt

17     to such situations and try somehow to survive the period without

18     electricity.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraphs -- or in paragraph 40 of your

20     amalgamated statement, you say that in early June 1992, you saw the

21     perpetrator of the crime against you for the first time, and his name was

22     Veselin Vlahovic, aka Batko.

23        A.   Not June, July.  July 1992.  I can briefly describe this

24     situation.

25             I was in a flat of a neighbour of mine who had invited me for

Page 13220

 1     some reason.  They had electricity.  The atmosphere there was kind of

 2     normal.  They were watching TV, and they offered me to sit down, and then

 3     at one point, of course not knowing that I was going to see that, while

 4     watching TV I saw this person, and I started crying out loud.  They

 5     didn't know what was going on.  I didn't tell them anything, but I think

 6     that I said something, "Wow, it's him."  They didn't press me with any

 7     questions, but they did realise that something was going on.

 8             So what I saw was this footage, and what -- what horrified me was

 9     that this Veselin Vlahovic was actually standing in front of our

10     building.  I'm talking about this footage.  And there was a tank.  He was

11     standing next to it.  So as soon as you leave the building, that was the

12     place that you can see with the naked eye.  This is where he was standing

13     and making a statement to a SRNA journalist, reporter.  Whether the

14     Muslims were coming back to Grbavica again, that was the question, and

15     his answer was, The Balijas would never live in Grbavica again.  So that

16     was the first time that I saw this person.

17        Q.   That was the first time that you identified him.  You didn't know

18     his name before?

19        A.   When this happened to us, a female neighbour of ours would

20     occasionally bring us bread, because that was our major problem.

21     Everything else was a problem, but of course without bread, you can't do

22     anything.

23             On the 28th of June, that same person took her away, but

24     something prevented him from taking her away while his car was still

25     running, and he parked his car in a different place, and by some kind of

Page 13221

 1     miracle she avoided being taken by this same man.  Before that, we were

 2     conversing, and there was already mention that this person was known as a

 3     Batko.  There were stories circulating around Grbavica.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, on page 13194, I'm giving the page

 5     reference so that the other participants can find this, you confirmed

 6     that this man belonged to an organised military group.  He came to see

 7     you by himself when he committed these crimes; right?

 8        A.   The first time he came with another soldier.  He asked for our

 9     personal IDs.  He gave certain comments with regards to what our IDs

10     contained:  My age, what I looked like, things like that.  The other man

11     didn't do anything.  That was our first encounter with him.

12             And the second time he came was during that night, after the

13     police had come to see us.

14             The next day the military police came.  I'm saying that because

15     of those white belts, and I had some relatives who belonged to such

16     units, so -- I mean in peacetime, had belonged to these units in

17     peacetime.  So I could recognise the military police therefore.

18             So everybody addressed the commander of that unit as Zenga,

19     Zenga.  Zenga.  So I have to say that he was very polite at the very

20     outset.  He addressed us in a very polite way.  He asked for our IDs, and

21     he was saying that we were just sitting there while his people were

22     getting killed.

23        Q.   That's the one who had a Croatian accent; right?

24        A.   Well, that was my impression, yes.  I think that that was the

25     case.  He sounded like someone who had lived in Croatia a long time.  You

Page 13222

 1     can hear that kind of accent.

 2        Q.   Do you remember that Zenga was the abbreviation used for members

 3     of Tudjman's National Guards Corps?  Did you know that?

 4        A.   Later on I knew about that, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  So your impression was that he was threatening to use

 6     some group of Chetniks.  Again I'm talking about the perpetrator of the

 7     crime, that he was relying on someone.  Did that lead you to say that he

 8     was part of a group?

 9        A.   Oh, no.  I think he was a member of the army, the regular army.

10     The others who came with him -- well, perhaps when you're afraid you seem

11     to see things bigger than they are, but they were very tall men, the ones

12     who came with him.  One stayed in front of a door that was open, and he

13     stood there with a rifle sort of.

14        Q.   You're talking about Zenga now, aren't you?

15        A.   Yes, yes.

16        Q.   I thought that we should go back to Batko.

17        A.   All right.

18        Q.   Did you have the impression that he was threatening you with some

19     group of his, and did that lead you to believe that he had an organised

20     group?

21        A.   Oh, no.  That was not his comment.  I said that he was talking

22     about what I looked like, and he asked me whether that was my personal ID

23     and whether I was that age, and I said of course.  That was the comment.

24     And then like whether there were any searches, or not, no, no.  He wasn't

25     hinting at anything then, no.

Page 13223

 1        Q.   But later on in your statements, you say that he threatened you,

 2     that he would hand you over to the Chetniks or something like that.

 3        A.   Yes, that was when he took us away during the night.  That night

 4     and the next day, I can't remember exactly -- I cannot actually assess

 5     the time-frame.  He kept us at this apartment in Vraca in

 6     Petrovacka Street.  Excuse me.

 7             I started reacting when he mentioned that he would execute my

 8     mother by some brook and hand me over to his Chetniks.  He kept using

 9     derogatory terms all the time, terrible insults, and his beating was

10     merciless.

11             I cannot say that I'm very frail exactly, but it's not that I'm

12     that sturdily built either.  It was terrible, all of it.  Seeing my

13     mother lying there next to me.  I actually just started reacting when he

14     said he would do that.  He also mentioned a brothel.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned some strange behaviour on his part,

16     grabbing his head.  You're referring to headaches, confusing behaviour,

17     confused behaviour.  Can you tell us what this was all about?

18        A.   We were in some apartment, and the two of us were definitely

19     shocked there.  The doors -- the windows were open in that apartment.

20     Things were strewn about, and at one point my mother tripped over.  He

21     climbed up on this open window, and he sat there.  And I see the

22     silhouette now as I'm saying this.  It was night-time, and then he said,

23     "No, no.  Not there.  Let's move on."  And now I'm in an area that I'm

24     totally unfamiliar with.  My mother tripped over at one point, and she

25     said that her shoe fell off, and I kept encouraging her, "Mama, take it

Page 13224

 1     easy.  I'll do it."  And I bent over to get her shoe, and we stepped on a

 2     body.  That's a terrible feeling.  At that moment I see -- I mean, what

 3     can I expect.

 4             And we came to this other apartment where there was electricity,

 5     and let us say that that was the living-room of that apartment.  And on a

 6     table I see jewellery, money.  Everything seems -- well, he is sort of

 7     looking for a pill or something.  He has a headache.  He's holding his

 8     head.  And at one point he walks into another room.  I look at my mother.

 9     I think she understood me, and I'm walking towards the window.  And I say

10     to her, "Mama, I'm going to jump out of the window."  And she just looks

11     at me, and I don't see any sign of approval there, in her look, nothing.

12     And I see bars on the window, and at that moment he is hollering at me,

13     saying, "Where are you going?"  And I just sat by my mother then.

14        Q.   That's the part that I was interested in the most.  In your

15     statements you say that he behaved like a madman.

16        A.   Well, you know, he's holding his head, and, you know, the way

17     he's driving and everything.  I don't know.  I seem to have come to now.

18     But in that moment, he was holding his head and looking for a pill, a

19     pain-killer.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, in your statement of the 17th of February,

21     1996, or it's probably the 21st as you said yesterday, you describe him

22     as a member of the Serb army without all of these details, but yesterday

23     you mentioned that he wore a former JNA uniform without any insignia.

24             Can you tell us actually what he looked like, whether he was tidy

25     and what his general condition was?

Page 13225

 1        A.   Well, what I first saw was his overcoat.  He wore a military

 2     uniform, full military uniform, but he had this overcoat.  That's why I

 3     had that impression.  He therefore looked sort of untidy, because it was

 4     the wrong size.  It was too big for him.

 5             By the next day he was wearing camouflage uniform, just a blouse

 6     and trousers.  But if you're asking about later on, I saw him through the

 7     window of our apartment.  Again -- well, all of a sudden he was wearing

 8     something like overalls and then a military jacket over it.  I mean,

 9     well, he changed uniforms all the time.  Let's put it that way.

10        Q.   I'm a bit perplexed by the jewellery.  At one point you say that

11     it was in a jar and in another statement you say that it was on the

12     table.

13        A.   Oh, no, no.  I was probably referring to the jewellery that we

14     had hidden in our own apartment and not in a jar but in a pillow, and it

15     was sewed up.

16             Over here it was very obvious.  I saw it right in front of me.  I

17     sat on a sofa, and in front of me on a table there was lots of jewellery,

18     thick chains.  It was very, very obvious.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, line 6, page 20,

21     the witness said that later she saw him in a third type of clothing.  I

22     guess that we were speaking very fast and perhaps you didn't hear it.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] So it was your impression that he

24     was in these two apartments and that this other apartment was where he

25     kept -- kept most of his valuables.

Page 13226

 1        A.   The first apartment was not really very well equipped with any

 2     kind of amenities, but the second one, I told you what it looked like,

 3     the one where we spent the night.

 4        Q.   I'm really unhappy to deal with this scene, but I would like us

 5     to draw a distinction in relation to your statements.  In one statement

 6     you say that when this occurred your mother was in another room, but in

 7     other statement you say that just before the act occurred, he brought

 8     your mother in.

 9        A.   No, no.  We were together in this living-room, if we can call it

10     that, and then he beat my mother and threatened her and took her away.  I

11     didn't even know what the layout of the apartment looked like at that

12     point in time.

13             He took her away.  He took her somewhere.  I have to put it that

14     way, "somewhere."  I hear her cries and moaning.  She is begging him not

15     to tie her up.  She says that she is in pain, and she even says, "I could

16     be your mother."

17             After that, he returned.  My mother stayed then.  However, since

18     this went on during the entire night, you're probably talking about what

19     followed.  I know that the best.

20             Of course, later on he did bring my mother.

21        Q.   Oh, I see.  It's the first statement of the 17th of February,

22     page 4, around line 15.  All right.  But basically, it doesn't change

23     much.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have a look at document

25     1D3415.  Can we have that in e-court.  Thank you.

Page 13227

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Again, I would like to recall that you said that he belonged to

 3     some organised military group.  May I draw your attention to this.  This

 4     was taken off the official site of the Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 5     The second paragraph, the first line:

 6             "The indictment alleges, inter alia, that the accused Vlahovic,

 7     as a member of the paramilitary forces of the so-called Serb Republic of

 8     BiH, later Republika Srpska, persecuted the civilian non-Serb population

 9     from Grbavica, Vraca and Kovacici settlements."  That what you meant when

10     you said he belonged to some organised group?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  No --

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know of --

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I have a problem with the characterisation of this

15     question, Your Honour.  The -- this report on the confirmation of the

16     indictment refers to -- or uses the word "paramilitary forces" to

17     describe the organised forces of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina, and I don't think that's an appropriate question in any case

19     for this witness.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, it's certainly not something that I

21     anticipate the witness would have any direct knowledge of.  This was a

22     question of a form of art by the person who drafted the indictment.  I

23     very much doubt, Dr. Karadzic, that this line of questioning is really

24     going to assist.  The question that I anticipate you were posing really

25     should be put towards the person, whoever that might have been, who

Page 13228

 1     drafted this indictment.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we briefly have a

 3     look at two other documents, 1D3414.  1D3414.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This man is confessing his crimes and is not repenting at all.

 6     Does this look like him?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Have you heard of him being called the "Monster of Grbavica"?

 9        A.   It's hard to find an appropriate term, but this one is most

10     suitable.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, the -- are you asking that it's admitted

13     as evidence of the truth of its contents or simply for the accuracy of

14     the description of the perpetrator as being a monster?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  And what is particularly

16     horrifying here for me is the absence of repentance.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if I may say this:  He's not

18     the first one.  A soldier monster, yes.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well --

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton, what do you say?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  It's just another characterisation of the first

23     point that I rose on, Your Honour:  What's a paramilitary, in effect?

24     No.  I don't think there's any basis for admission of this.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, that's why I posed the question that I

Page 13229

 1     did.  It seems to me that the witness has already answered that calling

 2     him a monster is an accurate description, and that's already in evidence

 3     in the testimony.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  So I think it's safer to leave it at that,

 6     Dr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we look at 1D3417

 8     now, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   While we're waiting, is it correct that this person was arrested

11     in Spain and that now he's facing trial in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

12        A.   I don't understand whether that's correct or not.  It is that

13     same man.  The years have passed, and he, like everyone else, like all of

14     us, looks different because of the years that have gone by.

15        Q.   Well, I'm asking you because of the other parties to the

16     proceedings.  They don't have to know what we know from the media.

17        A.   Yes, that is that person.

18        Q.   The lawyer of this person here notes that -- I'm going to read

19     that in English.  Second paragraph:

20             "[In English] Radivoje Lazarevic, the Defence attorney for

21     suspect Vlahovic, says he expects the indictment to be filed 'in a few

22     days' because the investigation began 'more than two and a half years

23     ago.'"

24             [No interpretation].

25             "[In English] 'Vlahovic approached me several times, complaining

Page 13230

 1     about various problems he has, most of which are related to his mental

 2     health.  I advised him to visit a physician at the Detention Unit.  I

 3     even think he visited him twice and some symptoms were found,' said --

 4     Lazarevic said."

 5             [Interpretation] Does this description of him by his lawyer

 6     correspond to your impression when you went to this other apartment when

 7     he was holding his head and all of that?

 8        A.   Oh, no.  I'm not that kind of expert.  What is being talked about

 9     here is what was done and the passage of time.  If that person, after

10     what he had done, is able to have peace of mind and sleep peacefully,

11     that would be something strange.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Just one moment, please.

13                           [Defence counsel and accused confer]

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   In your statements you mentioned who was on the other side of the

16     river, on the other bank.  Is it correct that the HVO component of the

17     B and H Army was located there?

18        A.   I mentioned that when we crossed the small bridge, a soldier who

19     was checking our IDs - I'm talking about the 27th of May - commented the

20     origin of my family and he mentioned her mother, who is from Herzegovina,

21     let's say, and I think he did say this was the HVO.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  The time that was allocated for

24     cross-examination has actually expired five minutes ago, but we are

25     minded to grant some extra time bearing in mind that since that

Page 13231

 1     allocation was assessed, there was an additional material, some

 2     additional material, but we'd ask you, please, to aim to finish your

 3     cross-examination by 20 past 10.00 -- just one moment.

 4             Ms. Edgerton, how much time would you anticipate, if any, for

 5     redirect?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  The ten minutes after that would do it,

 7     Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.  Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you now tell us how the supermarket that you saw was

12     destroyed, demolished, the one that you saw in ruins, and how was it

13     looted?

14        A.   It was torched.  The fire spread to our building as well.

15     Actually, the smoke caught our building as well.  There was a warehouse

16     there, so we ourselves tried to extinguish the fire.  The people who

17     lived in neighbouring apartments all around me, we tried to extinguish

18     the fire on the roof of the supermarket.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You said you were a part of the Civilian Defence.

20     Did you do this fire-fighting as part of the fire-fighting civil

21     protection unit, or did you do it as volunteers?

22        A.   No.  We just came out of our apartments.  We were in a panic, and

23     we took whatever we had, filled buckets with water, whatever we could

24     find and we were pouring this water from above on the roof of this

25     supermarket to stop the fire from spreading.  It wasn't organised at all.

Page 13232

 1     I came out in my housecoat.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  And the witness has never said she was part of the

 3     civilian defence, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  With that correction, Dr. Karadzic,

 5     continue, please.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   And were you subject to work duty?  I perhaps mixed it up, but I

 9     think you mentioned both.

10        A.   Yes, you probably did mix it up.  I was not subject to work duty,

11     but I was in the work platoon that was formed in Grbavica and which, from

12     time to time, went to the military farm in Gornja Presjenica.  We went to

13     Kijevo.  I think that's what those places were called where we would go

14     from time to time, and we would cultivate crops.  We would dig up onions,

15     potatoes, things like that.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And that is where your got two meals; is that right?

17        A.   Well, depending on the time we spent there, yes, we did.  We did

18     get a meal.  All right.  It was a meal.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And you described some people who were carrying some

20     kind of scabbards or holsters.  Did you see anybody fire?

21        A.   Well, if I went out every day, every day I would see certain

22     people.  There weren't too many of them, not too many familiar faces to

23     me at least.  I could see them entering the entrance at Lenjinova 58.

24     Later that became the street of Nikola Radovic.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I can see that I found somewhere in your statement

Page 13233

 1     the Women's Organisation of Women Victims of War of the 27th of January,

 2     2006, page 046757569, paragraph 5, where you -- paragraph 4, where you

 3     say that you and your mother were -- received notice to go to the civil

 4     protection, that you were summoned to go to the civilian protection just

 5     as the women of all ethnic groups were summoned to work.  It wasn't work

 6     on a daily basis.

 7        A.   It was a wrong translation.  It was not civil protection but it

 8     was the work platoon.

 9        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Now that is clear to me.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just give me a moment, please.  I'm

11     asking for a little bit of patience because I have to skip some things.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   This Batko introduced himself falsely.  In your amalgamated

14     statement, in paragraph 58, you say that he said that you could call him

15     Dragan.

16        A.   Yes, Dragan.

17        Q.   All right.  That's correct.  Thank you.

18        A.   I didn't expect him to tell me his full first and last name or to

19     show any kind of consideration or respect for me.

20        Q.   Are you saying that he himself was aware what he was doing?

21        A.   No, no.  I cannot say that.  Perhaps you know that in view of

22     your profession, perhaps.

23        Q.   But in any case, he had the need to conceal his identity; is that

24     right?

25        A.   Well, in that kind of thing, you know how it was.  He said, "You

Page 13234

 1     can call me Dragan," even though no one asked him anything.

 2        Q.   In paragraph 88, you say that these military policemen -- this

 3     military policeman sat you down and explained to you, when you asked them

 4     to let you go or to kill you, he explained, he sat you down and explained

 5     to you, "We don't that."  Is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.  It was ironic, but it was said.

 7        Q.   You asked him to "expel us [In English] at least to the smaller

 8     bridge, and they said that wasn't being done any longer and that Grbavica

 9     was completely sealed.  They said that what happened yesterday had been

10     stopped."

11             [Interpretation] Here you say that some people were expelled the

12     previous day.

13        A.   Yes, yes.  Right.  I was in a hopeless situation.  I didn't have

14     a flat.  I didn't have any documents.  There was nowhere I could go and

15     seek shelter.  I didn't know what to do.  And I said that in desperation,

16     in pleading.

17        Q.   Well, that topic doesn't touch me very much, but you mentioned

18     this Mr. Aleksic.  Yes, he really does look unconventional.  However, you

19     don't know of any of his criminal acts, do you?

20        A.   No, I don't.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that visit of Seselj's that we looked

22     at here?  Do you recall that in mid-May, a referendum was held in

23     Republika Srpska on the Vance-Owen Plan and that he mentions voting and

24     the fact that 60 Muslims voted in Grbavica in that excerpt?  Do you agree

25     that that visit of Seselj's was in connection to the referendum?

Page 13235

 1        A.   No, I can't say that.  All I know is that I did not participate

 2     in the referendum.  Without an ID card you absolutely are nobody and

 3     nothing.

 4        Q.   You say that on this market it was possible to buy and that there

 5     was a certain degree of supplies?

 6        A.   Yes, there were some products.  More homemade ones.  It was quite

 7     meager.  Some agriculture products, something from humanitarian aid.

 8     Actually, it was a very, very meager offering.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I'm not going to touch on any other topics.  Just one

10     question:  Did you hear of any names of any paramilitary groups?  For

11     example, did you hear of the Beli Andjeli, White Angels, paramilitary

12     group?

13        A.   I don't know.  Perhaps later.  I really don't know.

14        Q.   What about the White Eagles, Beli Orlovi, or some other one,

15     Emperor Dusan, Tsar Dusan?

16        A.   Perhaps the White Eagles, Beli Orlovi.  I don't know.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we going to admit this 15 --

19     13417, 13417 that was shown last?

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, I don't think the witness was able

21     to speak to that document at all, so it falls into the category of

22     documents which you might seek to have admitted through another method

23     later on.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13236

 1        Q.   Madam Witness, I am deeply grateful to you, and I am completely

 2     in solidarity with you.  Thank you.

 3        A.   Well, I have to pause a little bit at these words.  Thank you,

 4     Mr. Accused, for that understanding of yours.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 7                           Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

 8        Q.   Madam Witness, today at page 11, line 23, through to page 12,

 9     line 12, you discussed with Dr. Karadzic a period of time during which

10     you went to the cellar of your building to find shelter during the

11     shellings, and that's referred to in your amalgamated statement at

12     paragraph 12.

13             Was this limited to any particular period of time where you went

14     to the cellar to find shelter during the shellings?

15        A.   Yes, we did go, just like everybody else did, and then as the

16     days went by, we went more and more seldom, because we didn't feel

17     comfortable.  I said that.  Namely, our neighbours were listening to

18     Radio Belgrade, and I was supposed to listen to what Belgrade was saying

19     that was happening to us.  I couldn't accept that, because these were

20     pure untruths.

21             I can believe that people really -- when the same things are

22     constantly being repeated people start to believe them.  Some people; not

23     me.

24        Q.   What period of time was that limited to?

25        A.   You mean when we went down to the shelter?  Well, if not every

Page 13237

 1     day, then there was a period, and I'm referring to the day when I was --

 2     we were taken away, we were in the shelter.  However, immediately before

 3     that, we went up to our flat because I was very hungry.  Our neighbours

 4     who had rifles could hear what was happening, that somebody had come,

 5     that they were pulling us out.  My mother was screaming calling the names

 6     of our neighbours, Radoslav Vuckovic among them.  However, everybody kept

 7     quiet.  Nobody helped us in any way whatsoever.  I'm talking about those

 8     who had rifles.  I'm not talking about the civilians.  I understand that

 9     everybody is afraid and trying to save their own skin, so to speak.

10        Q.   I take from your answer, then, this period where you would seek

11     shelter is limited to this very beginning period of the war; is that

12     correct?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think this is a leading question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, exclusively, even though it

15     might sound as leading, but, you know, after you experience certain

16     things, then you move to another level of struggle to survive, not in a

17     shelter any longer.

18             MS. EDGERTON:

19        Q.   Now, at page 13 of today's transcript, with respect to events on

20     October 1st, 1992, Dr. Karadzic put the following to you, he said:

21             "Then the military police explained to you that that kind of

22     behaviour was illegal and that it was not based on any order."

23             But then later in today's transcript he referred to your

24     statement at paragraph 88 and read the following:

25             "I asked them again to expel us, at least to the smaller bridge.

Page 13238

 1     They said that wasn't being done any longer and that Grbavica was

 2     completely blocked.  They said what had happened yesterday had been

 3     stopped."

 4             Could you tell us, then, which is correct or a correct rendering

 5     of events, what Dr. Karadzic put to you or what he read to you at

 6     paragraph 88 of your statement?

 7        A.   The exact word of the military policeman, Boro Sljuka, because I

 8     saw his name tag, was that that operation was suspended.  These things

 9     were not being done any longer.  Grbavica was under blockade.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now finally at page 19, lines 13 to 14, Dr. Karadzic

11     told you that in your statements you said that, referring to Batko, he

12     behaved like a madman.

13             Have you ever -- do you recall every using the word "madman" to

14     describe Batko?

15        A.   No, I never said that, because I tried to avoid using such

16     qualifications.  I'll leave that to the gentleman who is a psychiatrist

17     by vocation.

18             Only at that moment when he put his hands on his head, I think

19     that, in inverted commas, this people -- this man who was "insane," came

20     to our door.  He wanted to return our ID cards.  He was banging at our

21     door so fiercely that I think that he was going to break into.

22             I had no other choice but to open the door.  Of course, he had no

23     ID cards of ours with him, and all these horrible events then followed.

24     The whole of that night and the following day.  But this is how it

25     started.  He pushed us -- pushed us into a cart -- a car.  I think it was

Page 13239

 1     a Golf one.  He forced us.  I had problems with my mother.  He was

 2     driving fast.  He knew exactly where he was.  Everything was being done

 3     by design.

 4             Nobody asked me this, but if I may say, when I reacted for the

 5     first time, when I felt that I might perhaps survive, I was affected much

 6     more about -- by what he said, that he was going to shoot my mother dead

 7     and then take me to a brothel and hand me over to Chetniks.  At that

 8     point I started thinking very intensively, because although everything

 9     was going according to his plan, he asked me, and I think it is in one of

10     my statements, "Have you got anything to buy your lives with?"  I just

11     waited to see what he was referring to, and he said, "Do you have money?"

12     I said, "A little."  Then he asked, "Do you have gold?"  And I

13     immediately said, "Yes, we do."  He asked then, "Plenty of gold?"  I

14     said, "Yes."  And then he said, "If you trick me, I'm going to kill you

15     in front of your mother."

16             From that moment on, I tried to continue living just for us to

17     leave that place and, before that, to give him whatever he wanted and he

18     thought sufficient.  After that, he changed his uniform.  He looked a

19     completely different person.  He was in a camouflage uniform.

20             We went back again in this same Golf, entered the flat, and we

21     started looking for this pillow in panic, given that a search had been

22     conducted by the military police before and everything was ransacked.

23     All the things that were in cupboards were thrown onto the floor.  So it

24     took some time for us to find this pillow where my mother had hidden

25     gold.

Page 13240

 1             He took these two pouches, and before that he had threatened us

 2     by saying, "If you are lying to me," he also fired some bullets close to

 3     my head, "I am going to kill you in front of your mother."  However, as

 4     soon as he saw this gold, he took it and said, "If you decide to go out,

 5     if you talk to anyone about this, I have my men.  I have my snipers.  I

 6     have my men who are going to kill you."  And then he left.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Nothing further, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you very much for coming to The Hague to

 9     give evidence before us.  It has not been contested that you have -- but

10     that you have gone through a dreadful personal ordeal, and you are

11     obviously a very strong lady.  Good fortune for the future, and a safe

12     journey home.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.  I am

14     grateful for having this opportunity, although this is terrible for me to

15     testify, nevertheless, in this case and to give my account of what really

16     was actually the point where my normal life stopped.  There have been

17     some improvements, but this is my personal thing.  And also on behalf of

18     my mother, I would like to thank you, because she's not capable of giving

19     testimony.  This is what I owe to her.  And I also did this for all those

20     who were killed in Grbavica.  Some of them were found.  Some have still

21     not been found.  So I'm thanking you on behalf of the living and the

22     dead.  Everyone says that I am a brave and patient woman, and I'm going

23     to wait for justice with patience, and it might come eventually.  Thank

24     you.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  We'll rise now until 11.00.

Page 13241

 1             Madam, if you stay seated until the curtains are lowered and then

 2     leave when it's safe for you to do so.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.00 a.m.

 6                           [The witness takes the stand]

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you for returning to continue with your

 8     testimony.  I'm sorry about the length of the delay.  Now we will

 9     continue.

10             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           WITNESS:  NEDJELJKO PRSTOJEVIC [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Examination by Mr. Tieger:  [Continued]

15        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Prstojevic.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, let me remind you where we were when we adjourned

18     the other day.  There was discussion about your comments at the

19     17th Assembly session, that is the 17th session of the Republika Srpska

20     Assembly in July of 1992, and we were looking at comments in which you

21     were discussing a meeting in Ilidza with Mr. Karadzic and others that you

22     say took place on the 18th of April, 1992.  And as I'm sure you'll

23     recall, there was discussion about a particular word in the text.  I

24     don't know that there's any particular value in pursuing that discussion

25     further.  The Court will have the text in front of it.  I think you've

Page 13242

 1     made your points about the text.  You've mentioned, for example, the word

 2     "potisli" instead of the word "potjerali."  But I noted that you had said

 3     toward the end of your testimony the very last thing you said:

 4             "If this is an original, then I accept it, and I am interpreting

 5     it.  I can indicate another word that is important in order to interpret

 6     what you're asking me and it's a little different."

 7             So before we move on, I will give you an opportunity to say if

 8     you want to suggest another word instead of the word that appears in the

 9     text, and remind you that you have already said that you said "potisli,"

10     that is that your position is the text should not say "potjerali" but it

11     should say "potisli."  But if there is another word you want to introduce

12     as well, I note you were cut off because of the time the other day, and I

13     give you that opportunity.

14        A.   I have nothing to come up with and use different words.  What I

15     have here in three documents are three different words, and I stand by

16     the wording that I provided.  In some parts we extended the territory,

17     and "potisli," "pushed back" the Muslims from the territory where they

18     were practically the majority.

19             The word that I used at that time could only be "potisli,"

20     "pushed back."

21             Another thing that I would like to emphasise is the following:

22     You see, I'm not saying where they are a majority.  I'm saying where they

23     are practically a majority.  I have here in front of me that speech as

24     well, and I also have the statistics.  At the moment when I was speaking,

25     that is to say, at the 17th Assembly session, we did not have under our

Page 13243

 1     control a single local commune out of the 20 Ilidza local communes where

 2     the Muslims were a majority.  In 11 local communes -- in the 11 local

 3     communes that we held there was a Christian majority.  In some of them

 4     there's not a single Muslim.  Muslims hold five local communes with an

 5     enormous population.  The Croats hold two local communes with a

 6     population that is somewhat smaller than ours, and they have their own

 7     municipality there.

 8             In the territories that we have under our control in 11 local

 9     communes, at that time there was 5.858 Muslims according to the census

10     from 1991.  And in the areas that were held by the Muslims, according to

11     the 1991 census, there were 6.943 Serbs.  That is to say, over

12     1.000 Serbs more, whereas in the Croat-held territory there was

13     1.724 Serbs.  That is to say, over 2.000 Serbs remained in territories

14     that were under the control of the Croats and Muslims.

15             As for Croats, I am not going to speak about them.  We were not

16     at war with them, and it doesn't really matter, but in August and

17     September, the Muslims seized two -- two local communes from them, Stup

18     and Otes, and practically they pushed them back in military terms, and

19     then civilians fell victim and there was fierce fighting between the

20     Serbs and Muslims on the borders between these local communes.

21        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, by the time of the 17th Assembly session in

22     July of 1992, was -- did you know that division from the Muslims was or

23     was not a goal of Republika Srpska and the Republika Srpska leadership?

24        A.   Our primary goal in an Ilidza was defence and self-defence of our

25     own ethnic areas.  It is quite clear when it was established that it was

Page 13244

 1     impossible to live in a dignified and peaceful manner with mutual

 2     respect.  Then everybody protected their own territory, and in a way,

 3     what was opted for was division.

 4        Q.   Was division an express goal of the Republika Srpska authorities?

 5        A.   I don't know that ultimately, and I cannot give a specific answer

 6     to that, because everything I would say would be maybe yes in some

 7     periods or in some previous periods no.  Certainly in the pre-war period,

 8     no, but as the war went on, it became obvious that in the Muslim part

 9     there were quite a few fundamentalists, extremists with whom it was not

10     easy to live, even for the autochthonous Muslims, let alone Serbs and

11     Croats.

12        Q.   Ever hear of the strategic goals, Mr. Prstojevic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And you knew about the strategic goals by the time you gave this

15     speech in July of 1992; is that right?

16        A.   I don't know when I exactly knew, but possibly it was in a

17     Official Gazette that we received these strategic goals.  Perhaps there

18     was mention of it beforehand too.  It was well known when the Official

19     Gazette was published, and if it was published in the Official Gazette,

20     then that would be that moment.  I mean the mail would arrive in three or

21     four or five days.

22        Q.   Well, let me see if I can perhaps refresh your recollection about

23     when you might have heard about the strategic goals.

24             Do you recall, for example, that the strategic goals were made

25     known through the participants of the Assembly and even through others,

Page 13245

 1     for example, through the people's deputy?

 2        A.   Well, you see, I mean the strategic goals, when they were adopted

 3     by the Assembly, they were published in the Official Gazette.  As soon as

 4     we received the Official Gazette, we read that.

 5             The deputy who was there, if he was there, if he participated in

 6     that Assembly when they were adopted, could have told us about it too.

 7     However, the Ilidza leadership and the Ilidza people did not meddle in

 8     high-level politics.  We were always prepared, before the war and during

 9     the war, and that was shown by Dayton as well, that we are prepared to

10     accept what high-level politics agrees upon, and what was agreed upon in

11     Dayton was fatal for Ilidza, and about 20.000 Serbs were moved out on the

12     eve of the application of the Dayton agreement, that is to say from the

13     western part --

14        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, excuse me, but if we don't want to be here for

15     the next month, please try to answer my questions rather than elaborate

16     by moving from 1992 into 1996.  I don't want to prevent you from

17     answering questions, but I am asking you not to expound on subjects that

18     haven't been raised.

19             Now, during the course of your previous interviews, you had an

20     opportunity to see an Official Gazette in which the strategic objectives

21     were promulgated and to see that that was in 26 -- that was in

22     November of 1993, more than a year after the discussion of the strategic

23     objectives at the 16th Assembly in May of 1992.  You recall seeing that

24     Official Gazette and having it presented to you, don't you?

25        A.   Well, yes, but you see, I don't remember the date.  However, when

Page 13246

 1     I skipped all the way to 1996, I was trying to say that we did not meddle

 2     in high-level politics but that we accepted it unconditionally, whatever

 3     was agreed upon, and that's what we did.

 4        Q.   And going back to the discussion and the question I just raised,

 5     when you were shown that Official Gazette and when saw it and saw that it

 6     was in November of 1993, did you then clarify that the decision was known

 7     through the participants of the Assembly and was known to us through the

 8     people's deputy and through political meetings, because there were many

 9     meetings of the leadership of the Serb people from Pale with people from

10     Sarajevo.

11        A.   Well, you see, it's very hard for me to explain all of that.

12     However, the procedure in the Assembly is practically this:  The

13     professional staff prepares material, then a meeting of the deputies'

14     club is held, and then all of this goes before the Assembly.  It's not a

15     long period of time within the Assembly from these initial meetings until

16     the actual session of the Assembly.

17        Q.   And with respect to Assembly sessions that you did not attend,

18     you'd get information back from those who did, including the deputy or a

19     Member of Parliament; is that right?

20        A.   First of all, information arrived through the Official Gazette.

21     Secondly, from our Member of Parliament, Ljubo Bosiljcic, if he was

22     present and to the extent to which he thought it was necessary to provide

23     information.  There were no other ways.  Perhaps if somebody attended as

24     a guest, as I attended the 17th session, and the other presidents of the

25     Sarajevo municipalities.

Page 13247

 1        Q.   Did the strategic goals call for the division of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina?

 3        A.   Well, I mean I cannot remember that now.  If we talked about the

 4     strategic objectives in Mr. Krajisnik's case, I mean, for me not to say

 5     something in a different way, then I accept what I said there and then,

 6     because I remembered better then.  Now I could not say just off-the-cuff

 7     what any one of the strategic objectives was except that perhaps there is

 8     some mention of the Neretva River, and I was born on the banks of the

 9     Neretva and lived on the banks of the Neretva.

10        Q.   Were you aware that the division of Sarajevo was part of the

11     strategic goals or part of the objective of Republika Srpska and the

12     Republika Srpska authorities, when you were speaking in July of 1992,

13     for example?

14        A.   Well, I wasn't thinking about the strategic objectives then.  You

15     said that they were published in 1993.  That is to say, I didn't even

16     know about them.  However, every Serb who was in Sarajevo in the ethnic

17     areas where Serbs had lived for centuries wanted to have these areas

18     remain Serb and asked the leadership to reach agreement with the Muslim

19     leadership in order to have these areas remain Serb.

20             People kept asking me too:

21             "Has Ilidza been sold out?  Will Ilidza stay in Serb hands or

22     will it be handed over to the Muslims by way of some agreement," and so

23     on.

24        Q.   We talked the other day about agreement by hook or crook, that

25     is -- not agreement, about division by hook or crook.  That was at

Page 13248

 1     transcript page 12994.  That is, either division by agreement or division

 2     by force of arms to free or liberate territories which Serbs believed

 3     belonged to them.

 4             Did anyone at the 17th Assembly session, Mr. Prstojevic, speak

 5     about division of Sarajevo either by agreement or, if not, by force of

 6     arms?

 7        A.   Well, you see, I did not attend that session until the very end,

 8     and I did not really pay much attention to what other MPs were saying.

 9     When I finished my speech, I left, either immediately or after some time,

10     because the Assembly session went on for a long time.  I think it went on

11     for several days.  However, in this speech of mine, which I have here, I

12     said, among other things, that the Serb municipalities in the western

13     area are surrounded by a double encirclement and that food cannot arrive.

14             At the end of the speech, and that's what you're interested in, I

15     said, and I'm reading this verbatim.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We don't have the text.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When you look further on:

18             "I kindly ask high-level politics to tell us very nicely whether

19     the peace process can bring a division to Sarajevo in an appropriate way

20     so that we know.  If not, let us take up arms to free the territories

21     that we consider to be our own.  Otherwise -- or, rather, because

22     otherwise, there may be an unprecedented genocide against the Serb people

23     in Sarajevo in that area."

24             That's the end of the quote.

25             Let me just say this:  Where we did not defend our ethnic areas

Page 13249

 1     by military means, there was practically a genocide, like in Pofalici,

 2     where everyone was killed and only one Muslim soldier lost his life.

 3     Over 300 civilians were killed there.

 4             That is what I said, not having in mind any strategic objectives

 5     or anything.  That is to say, my personal view and my personal position.

 6        Q.   And what did you understand was meant by "division,"

 7     Mr. Prstojevic?

 8        A.   I'm going to explain here what I meant, what my understanding was

 9     and what the Serbs in that area thought.

10             Where there is an ethnic Serb majority according to the census,

11     the 1991 census, our wish was for that to be our Serb Sarajevo, that we

12     be in a decision-making position there and that there is no out-voting of

13     anyone by anyone.  After all, Dayton divided Sarajevo into the eastern

14     and western parts.  Five Ilidza local communes will, in fact, remain in

15     the eastern part -- or, rather, Serb Sarajevo.  Some municipalities in

16     their entirety, like Pale.  Others, Trnovo, Stari Grad, Centar, in part.

17        Q.   Were you aware of demographic concerns about the Muslim

18     birth rate and the number of -- and the proliferation or the propagation

19     or the increase in the Muslim population in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and

20     particularly in portions of Bosnia and Herzegovina that the Serbs

21     considered to be their ethnic territory?

22        A.   In Ilidza we have information from the 1991 census.  We have the

23     number of inhabitants, the ethnic composition, the number of households,

24     the number of livestock, everything.  I'm not an expert.  I never thought

25     about the birth rate, and I really do not know anything about that.  Even

Page 13250

 1     more so because my parents had ten children, and I am their seventh

 2     child.

 3        Q.   Were you aware that others did think about the birth rate,

 4     including members of the Bosnian Serb leadership, and made their concerns

 5     about the birth rate of the Muslims known to the other members of the SDS

 6     and of Republika Srpska authorities?

 7        A.   Oh, please.  I cannot guess.  I cannot answer such questions.

 8     But I do know that, to this day, the Muslims have a low birth rate and

 9     that they go hand-in-hand with the Serbs as far as that's concerned, that

10     we are on a totally equal footing there, equals.

11             Mr. Tieger, this is the first time I come across a question like

12     that.  Please.  I cannot think about that.  I couldn't think about it at

13     the time either.  Time did not allow me to do that, nor was there any

14     need to think about that.

15        Q.   I understand that's the position you want to take,

16     Mr. Prstojevic.  I wasn't asking you at all to guess.

17             Let's go back now to the transcript of the 17th Assembly session,

18     which you attended.  You told us earlier that Mr. Ostojic was the

19     president of the SDS Executive Board and a resident of Ilidza who was "at

20     our disposal without limitations."  He spoke at that Assembly session.

21     Did you know that?

22        A.   Look, it is true that Mr. Ostojic was a resident of Ilidza and

23     that it was possible to contact him at all times.  However, I don't know

24     what he spoke about at the Assembly session.  I know that Mr. Ostojic is

25     married to a Muslim woman, and I know that his wife and their two sons

Page 13251

 1     spent the whole war with us in Ilidza, in the central neighbourhood of

 2     Ilidza known as Vito.

 3        Q.   Let me give you -- those are interesting details about

 4     Mr. Ostojic, but not exactly focused on the question I asked.

 5             At the 17th Assembly session, and the transcript of that session

 6     is in evidence, Mr. Prstojevic, he was speaking about certain territory

 7     and the number of Serbs, the number of Muslims -- the percentage of

 8     Serbs, the percentage of Muslims, and the percentage of Croats.  And then

 9     he said:

10             "Through birth rate, within ten years you will lose even that

11     percentage."

12             That's at page 81 in the English of that session and page 83.

13             Do you recall hearing Mr. Ostojic refer to the birth rate at that

14     session?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  It seems that

16     Mr. Tieger is now impeaching his witness, and I would ask that the

17     Chamber decide whether that's permissible or not.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Well, Your Honour, first of all, that's not

19     something that could be known, as the Court pointed out earlier, until

20     the witness answers a question.  The witness may say, "Thank you very

21     much for reminding me about that.  I had previously forgotten."  It may

22     turn out to be in the nature of additional information which contradicts

23     a position the witness is taking, but we won't know that.

24             Secondly, I will point out once again that I don't believe

25     there's a system in the world that calls upon either party to make a

Page 13252

 1     question-by-question request to the Court to put questions to a witness.

 2     If there's a concern about whether or not questions that add to, clarify,

 3     illuminate or even contradict a witness's previous information, that's

 4     something that is indeed in the Court's hands, but the Court is alert to

 5     that issue now, has approved of the manner in which this has been

 6     proceeding, and I think is receiving information to which its entitled

 7     and indeed obligated to get.

 8             The -- having Mr. Robinson rise at every point, interrupt

 9     examination and other consequences, I think is not merely inefficient,

10     but I think it undercuts the utility, purpose and ultimate value of an

11     examination and the illumination the Court will receive from it.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Mr. Tieger, I don't think Mr. Robinson is

13     rising at every point.

14             Generally speaking, of course, if during the course of an

15     examination-in-chief there are questions which are asked in order to

16     clarify or illuminate an answer, that's a perfectly standard technique.

17     Where you get into the realm of contradiction, however, it is an

18     impeachment or it may be an impeachment and I accept your point that

19     until the witness gives an answer, you don't know whether it's necessary

20     to go down that road or not.

21             In order to be as efficient as possible, what I would say is that

22     it seems to the Court at the moment that you are likely to be going down

23     the road of impeachment, and there is a continuing authority from the

24     Court to do so, but if you are going to do so in a very radical manner,

25     by putting, for instance, a completely contradictory document, it would

Page 13253

 1     be useful, I think, for you to make that plain.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President, and I trust I try to be

 3     as both progressive and transparent in this process as possible.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  We will have to understand that this is not a

 5     jury trial and we have to see and assess everything at the end of the

 6     day.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I quite agree.

 8        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, the question was whether you recall hearing

 9     Mr. Ostojic refer to the birth rate of Muslims or Croats at that

10     17th Assembly session.

11        A.   It seems to me that you said that Mr. Ostojic and his speech were

12     recorded on page 81 of the minutes of the meeting of the Assembly

13     session.  Am I right?

14        Q.   That's in the English, Mr. Prstojevic.  That's 83 in the B/C/S.

15     But I'm not asking you to read it out.  I'm asking you first if you

16     recall it.

17        A.   I don't recall it, because my speech was recorded on page 68 of

18     B/C/S version.  Mr. Tieger, I would like to remind you now that in 2003

19     as well, I told your investigators that upon finishing my speech, due to

20     some prior commitments I had to leave.  However, you are pursuing the

21     same practice that you pursued in the Krajisnik case by saying that I

22     said something, for example, during interview in this way and then later

23     I changed it, and after giving it some thought over the past two days and

24     on the basis of the documents that I have with me, I decided that this is

25     not the case.

Page 13254

 1             I understand this to be a psychological pressure exerted on me to

 2     disrupt my concentration, to stop me from thinking and providing proper

 3     answers to the best of my knowledge and recollection.  In other words,

 4     I'd like to say that I didn't hear Mr. Ostojic talking about this issue.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Witness, we're all under constraints of

 6     time.  If you can attempt simply to answer the question that is asked,

 7     whether it's coming from Mr. Tieger or, in due course, from Dr. Karadzic,

 8     we would all get along much more efficiently.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   You do recall, Mr. Prstojevic, that you had an opportunity to

11     look at video coverage of a meeting or convention in 1991 at which

12     Mr. Ostojic spoke; correct?

13        A.   Well, I saw it the other day during proofing here in The Hague.

14     On the last day of proofing, in fact.  I saw a meeting of the local

15     board -- or, rather, the Assembly of the Dobrinja SDS local board where

16     Mr. Ostojic spoke and delivered a speech as a guest.

17        Q.   And if we could call up 40132, and I'd like to listen to a

18     portion that I believe -- well, first of all, show the very beginning of

19     it so that we can see Mr. Ostojic.

20             And you identified this speaker as Mr. Ostojic; is that right?

21     At the point at which he greets everyone on behalf of the SDS Main Board

22     and Mr. Karadzic.

23        A.   I can't see the speaker here on this device, in this image.

24     However, on the 2nd of March of this year I saw this footage for the

25     first time.

Page 13255

 1        Q.   And viewing the portion of the footage that you had an

 2     opportunity to see at that time, you did indicate that the speaker was

 3     Mr. Ostojic.  Isn't that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  If we could play a portion of the video at 20:11.4

 6     through 20:21.2, and I think for the benefit of the interpreters, that

 7     should be found on page 8 in approximately the middle of the transcript.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot find the exact

10     portion in the transcript.  Apologies.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Could you pause that, please, for a moment.

12             Well, it would -- if I can assist the interpreters.  At

13     approximately the -- I mean, we can go back and do it quickly.  At

14     approximately the -- just above the middle of the page you should in

15     capital letters the name Izetbegovic and immediately below that

16     "51 per cent."

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, we have found it.  Thank you so much.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Perhaps we can commence again.  It might be the

19     easiest thing to do.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We can prevent what's in

22     Izetbegovic's declaration.  And it says that this will be an Islamic

23     state when there's 51 per cent of them.  That's being cooked, for us,

24     gentlemen.  That's what we are being told."

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have lost the sound.

Page 13256

 1     Sorry.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  The text appears to be coming up in English in

 3     any event.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "That's what we were being told.

 5     We /unintelligible/ are not in a hurry /unintelligible/ my grandchild

 6     does not have to live to be in an Islamic state, but he will

 7     /unintelligible/ with the intention to Islamic Bosnia to /unintelligible/

 8     and we, gentlemen, are in a state of prenatal genocide.  One Serb family,

 9     two heads and one child.  Well, there's two of them, but at neighbour

10     Sejo ... seven.  Therefore, another thing:  We hope that this fixation,

11     this absurd political idea of the Serb people called Yugoslavism will

12     disappear.  And --"

13             MR. TIEGER:  And we can stop the tape there.

14        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, the reference to "a state of prenatal genocide.

15     One Serb family, one child.  But at neighbour Sejo's ... seven," is that

16     a reference to the concern over the Muslim birth rate?

17        A.   First of all, I didn't hear at all what Mr. Ostojic was saying,

18     probably due to some technical reasons.  I don't know why.

19             Secondly, I heard this speech on the 2nd of March, and I

20     understood that my task was solely to confirm the identity of the

21     speaker, and I didn't bother too much to listen what he was saying, and I

22     didn't make any note of it.

23             Thirdly, as a farmer and a pensioner, I don't have any capacity

24     or competence to comment on a speech delivered by, I think,

25     Professor Ostojic, delivered in 1991.  That would be inappropriate and

Page 13257

 1     impolite.

 2             That is not true.  For example, I have three children.  My

 3     younger brother has four children.  And it was not exactly true that each

 4     Serbian family had one child only.

 5        Q.   Last question on that subject, Mr. Prstojevic.  Are you -- is it

 6     your position that you never heard any expression of concern about

 7     demographics and the unfavourable demographics from the Serbian point of

 8     view, including the Muslim birth rate, from any member of the SDS or

 9     Republika Srpska leadership?

10        A.   I kindly ask you not to try and make me remember that.  I cannot

11     remember that at the moment.  But by watching television, and I watch

12     TV Belgrade most of the time, I hear that there is a lot of talk about

13     birth rate in Serbia, but I cannot remember that there was any such

14     discussion about birth rates and things of that sort before the war or

15     during the war for that matter.

16        Q.   The discussion at the 17th Assembly session was about the meeting

17     in Ilidza at April 18th.  When did you next see Mr. Karadzic after that

18     meeting?  Do you recall?

19        A.   Well, I cannot recall exactly, but there were certain meetings,

20     mainly in the latter part of 1992, where President Karadzic was present.

21        Q.   Well, I'm not talking about the latter part of 1992, but let's

22     see if -- since you can't recall exactly, let me see if it assists you to

23     hear what you said in 2005.  There was a discussion of that meeting in

24     April.  You made reference to subsequent meetings in Pale, and then you

25     were asked:

Page 13258

 1             "How long after this meeting in Ilidza did you then go to Pale?"

 2             You said:

 3             "I cannot remember really."

 4             This is page 28 of the English.  And page 47 of 65 ter 22231.

 5             "I cannot remember really, but I think it was in May, but what is

 6     important is that Vojo Djordjevic was still the commander of -- he was

 7     still the commander of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, and he was in Lukavica at

 8     that time when went to Pale.  That was around the 10th of May roughly."

 9             Then you were asked what's the importance of him and you said

10     that's part of the chronology of events or helps you fix the date.  Then

11     you were asked how often -- just a rough guide, how often were you

12     invited to Pale, and you said invitations to go to Pale were more and

13     more often as the war was progressing.  More or less immediately from the

14     10th of May, there was another meeting held in Pale.

15             And can you confirm, Mr. Prstojevic, that that's what you said,

16     or does that refresh your recollection about a meeting at or around the

17     10th of May in 1992 in Pale with Mr. Karadzic and others?

18        A.   In my documents I have the date of that meeting, and I remember

19     it because for a short while I saw the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija

20     Corps, but his name was Vojislav Djurdjevac, not Vojo Djordjevic.  And

21     during the break I think I can locate this date in my papers.  I know

22     that all presidents of city municipalities were in attendance at that

23     meeting and that the presidents of the city municipalities were extremely

24     dissatisfied with the leadership because the seat of the government had

25     remained in Pale.  And I can find in my notes exactly that we criticised

Page 13259

 1     the leadership and they criticised us back.

 2        Q.   You mentioned that -- in that interview that invitations to go to

 3     Pale were more and more often as the war progressed.  What was discussed

 4     at those meetings?

 5        A.   It is absolutely true.  As war progressed, the meetings became

 6     more and more frequent.  The purpose of the majority of meetings, or

 7     maybe all of them, except the first one, where there was rifts, as I

 8     said, in the majority of meetings the military situation was discussed

 9     and also the political situation, but it only had to do with high

10     politics.  So what was discussed was military and political situation.

11             Secondly, there were requests made by the leadership to us, what

12     we needed in terms of logistics, what was needed by the military and what

13     the ordinary people needed.  There were also discussions about

14     co-operation at the local level between the civilian authorities, the

15     army, and the MUP and how to bring the rule of law about.

16        Q.   In addition to personal contact by, for example, going to Pale,

17     did you also have communication with the leadership through other means

18     such as the telephone?

19        A.   I remember my personal contacts mainly.  At the time when

20     telephone service was active and functioning, of course we communicated

21     over the telephone whenever it was necessary and if we could reach the

22     relevant people that we wanted to speak to.

23        Q.   And telephone service was active and functioning in, for example,

24     April and May 1992; is that right?  And you've had a chance to see large

25     numbers of telephone conversations in which you participated during that

Page 13260

 1     time.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I state an objection?  I think

 5     this is leading.

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Well, first of all, there's an answer to the

 8     question.  I can re-ask it.  If -- in light of the number of intercepts

 9     already tendered and reviewed, if that's at issue, I'll be -- I can

10     re-ask the question, although I think we have an answer to it.  We have a

11     proofing note in which the witness confirmed his participation in, I

12     think, dozens, or at least over 20, conversations.  We've seen it in the

13     transcript, but I'm in your hands, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  I was simply seeking your observation.  It

15     strikes me that it -- the question doesn't actually fall into the classic

16     example of a leading question.  It gives an alternative and then makes an

17     inquiry, but if you can rephrase it, so much the better.

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Well, let me ask this in light of the fact that the question has

20     been answered, let me ask:  Can you give us an example of some of the

21     people you were in contact with, for example, that is what organisations

22     or bodies they were associated with, and I have in mind, for example, JNA

23     officials, MUP officials, RS political authorities in Pale, other

24     municipal leaders around Sarajevo and so on?  Can you give us an example

25     of some of the people you were in contact with, either referring to the

Page 13261

 1     specific conversations you listened to the other day or others that you

 2     may have in mind?

 3        A.   Well, at the local level of our municipality there were

 4     continuous telephone contacts with brigade commanders, with the people

 5     from the JNA, up until the 19th of May, and then from the 19th of May

 6     with the corps command, with people from our -- some 20 local communes,

 7     and so on.  But when the phones were working and there was contact with

 8     the government in Pale and our leadership in Pale, if there was any need,

 9     we didn't hesitate to call the leadership in Pale, meaning the members of

10     government, certain ministers, and other state functionaries.

11        Q.   And did you have contact with other local leaders around Sarajevo

12     in other municipalities?

13        A.   I did.

14        Q.   I had asked you about the Crisis Staffs the other day.  After

15     the -- during the course -- well, let me ask you this question:  Did --

16     were the Crisis Staffs replaced by another body, and did that body --

17     well, first of all, was the Crisis Staff replaced by another body?

18        A.   It was, yes.

19        Q.   And what was that?

20        A.   The War Commissioner.

21        Q.   And did the War Commissioner have -- did the War Commissioner --

22     or who was the War Commissioner in -- in Ilidza, and did that person have

23     any connection to the Republika Srpska leadership?

24        A.   The first War Commissioner for the Serbian municipality of Ilidza

25     and for the Serbian municipality of Rajlovac was Miroslav Radovanovic,

Page 13262

 1     who had a master's degree.

 2        Q.   You --

 3        A.   He came to us, to Ilidza, meaning that he was sent by the

 4     leadership in Pale.  I don't know which organ formed the

 5     War Commissioner's office.  He introduced himself, and he began to help

 6     us in our work.

 7        Q.   Do you recall the War Commissioner for Vogosca and/or Ilijas?

 8        A.   This was Dr. Nikola Poplasen.

 9        Q.   And were you aware that the War Commissioner, Mr. Radovanovic,

10     had been sent by the leadership in Pale?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And how would you characterise, then, the level of control that

13     the leadership in Pale had over the -- over Ilidza?

14        A.   This was a very difficult time.  There was confusion, and we

15     simply didn't know each other.  Amongst ourselves in the Municipal Board,

16     out of 38 people I only knew one before the Municipal Board was

17     established.  So then in the horizontal co-operation there were a lot

18     sparks flying around the TO staff, the MUP, the civilian part, and the

19     commissioner came practically to take a snapshot of the situation and to

20     horizontally link up and co-ordinate.  It meant that he could criticise

21     somebody, and also he could harmonise the co-operation.

22             Secondly, I understood that it was his goal to help us, to link

23     up the co-operation, to aid, because Ilidza was complex.  Ilidza only had

24     two public security stations at two ends and a third police station

25     somewhere in the middle.  It had border police as well.  So it had

Page 13263

 1     four police units.  So simply, the need was to link all of that up and to

 2     have the rule of law start functioning again.  Then he, as a person whose

 3     jurisdiction included us, had to also provide evaluations and assessments

 4     of us.  Where were the problems?  Who was responsible if -- if the

 5     co-operation was not good?  Who was responsible if something was not

 6     working well?  So that practically he was -- I could put it that way,

 7     first among equals, but he was above us because he could evaluate our

 8     work, but we couldn't evaluate his.

 9        Q.   Let me ask you about something you said in 2005, at page 28 of

10     the English, and page 47 of the B/C/S.  Again, you were talking about

11     meetings with Pale, and then you said:

12             "Well, what's even more important is that they sent us war

13     commissioners."

14             And then you pointed out that Radovanovic was sent to Ilidza,

15     Poplasen to Vogosca and Ilijas, and then you said:

16             "So practically the leadership from Pale controlled the local

17     municipality president or local leaderships through those war

18     commissioners.  They were sent there to be superior to the municipal

19     organs."

20             What was -- was that accurate, Mr. Prstojevic, and does that

21     expand on the impact of the role of the commissioners?

22        A.   I said the same thing but in a different way.  It's quite clear

23     that he is evaluating somebody -- or the person who he is evaluating

24     somebody's work and submitting a report, they are positioned above the

25     local leadership.  The statements do match.

Page 13264

 1        Q.   And we had talked about meetings.  Do you recall a meeting at

 2     Jahorina in September of 1992 or at some point in 1992?

 3        A.   I remember.

 4        Q.   Do you remember who attended that meeting?

 5        A.   The top state and political leadership was there, headed by

 6     President Karadzic, President Krajisnik, some ministers.  I know that

 7     there was some Finance Minister, someone called Petra.  I don't remember

 8     ministers, the other ones.  Of the military leadership General Mladic was

 9     there, the commander of all Sarajevo brigades and headed by the corps

10     commander, all municipal presidents, presidents of the Executive Boards.

11     It was quite a big gathering.

12        Q.   Now, Mr. Prstojevic, I want to next ask you some questions

13     following up on the comment that you read out from the 17th Assembly,

14     asking what the division of Sarajevo would be and whether arms should be

15     taken up to free the territories, which -- I think the quote was, "We

16     believe are ours."

17             So if I could turn first to a document I'd like to show you.  But

18     actually, before I do, I just wanted to ask you about something you said

19     about the demographic situation in Ilidza.  Where were the Muslim areas?

20     And perhaps that's not a question that's a particular problem.  Let me

21     ask you first of all, were Butmir, Hrasnica, Sokolovic Kolonija, for

22     example, Muslim-majority areas?

23        A.   Our decisions on the formation of the Serbian Municipality of

24     Ilidza of the 5th of April left out all the Muslim communities where the

25     Muslims were in a majority, including Hrasnica 1, Hrasnica 2,

Page 13265

 1     Sokolovic Kolonija, Butmir, Stupsko Brdo, and a part of Kotorac,

 2     Donji Kotorac, where the Muslims are the majority population.  We also

 3     left out Stup 1 as a whole and Otes.

 4             Let me correct myself.  Stup 1, actually there is a part called

 5     Doglodi where the Serbs are a majority.  That part was not included.  But

 6     Stup 1 and Otes was given to the Croats and that's where they formed

 7     their municipality and the HVO until the Muslims drove them out, which is

 8     what I talked about earlier.

 9             The other local communes had a major Christian majority.  I have

10     a description here, and I can read it out precisely.  There are some

11     local communes where there is no -- not a single Muslim.  There are some

12     communities where there isn't a single Croat.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to repeat the

14     last sentence.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, the interpreters have asked that you repeat your

17     last sentence.  They couldn't either hear it or understand it.

18        A.   I'm sorry.  They didn't understand.  It's a Serbian proverb.

19     When people get on well together, we say like nail and flesh or cuticle.

20     We managed somehow to stay without quarreling, but what high politics

21     decides high politics does.  But there was a lot of pressure on the

22     Croats also, from the leadership from Zagreb and leadership from Bosnia,

23     to enter into war against us, but they knew that this was not in their

24     interest.  They knew that we were not touching on their territories and

25     they didn't want to do that, and I commend them for it.

Page 13266

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please just make it clear in

 2     this answer that the witness is talking about relationship between the

 3     Croats and the Serbs.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Is that correct, Mr. Witness?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.  We are talking

 6     about the relations between the Croats and the Serbs in Ilidza and the

 7     Croats from the municipality of Kiseljak where they are in a majority and

 8     they border on us.  Some 11 kilometres of the border is an area that was

 9     never taken up by anyone, and we never had any incidents or excesses with

10     them.  We had local communities in Ilidza during the war where there were

11     more Croats during the war than during peacetime.  For example, the local

12     community of Blazuj, where there were a lot of holiday homes.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. Registrar, can we call up P01006.

14        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I indicated I was going to show you a few

15     documents from that time.

16             While we're waiting for the English to be called up, I'll

17     indicate to you, Mr. Prstojevic, that that is a document from the command

18     of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

19             Well, since I'm going through a series of documents, Your Honour,

20     I don't know if we want to take an early break or not, but -- I'm getting

21     a nod of assent from the Registrar, who thinks that might be a good idea

22     in view of the technological difficulties.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  I think that's probably a very good idea.  So

24     we'll break now and sit again at 5 to the hour.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.21 p.m.

Page 13267

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I had previously called

 4     up P0111 -- P01006.  I see it was already on the screen.

 5        Q.   And, Mr. Prstojevic, I believe you've already been looking at

 6     that for the last few minutes, is that right?  The September 12, 1992,

 7     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps document.

 8             THE ACCUSED:  We don't have it on the monitor.  Now it's okay.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Well, just to commence again, that's a document dated

11     12 September 1992, from the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps to the

12     command of the SRK rear command post.  And the preamble begins:

13             "In the VRS Main Staff telegram dated September 7th, 1992, we

14     received tasks from the conference on military and political matters in

15     the SRK area held on 6 September 1992 on Jahorina ..."

16             And then it goes on to describe the attendees, including the

17     SRK command, brigade commanders, presidents of Municipal Assemblies,

18     chiefs of municipal recruiting offices, members of the Main Staff, and

19     members of the government and Presidency of the Serbian Republic.

20             First, Mr. Prstojevic, is that a reference to the Jahorina

21     meeting that you mentioned earlier when you described a meeting attended

22     by, I believe you said, all municipal presidents, presidents of

23     Executive Boards and so on?

24        A.   Look, this was the first meeting of its kind at such a high level

25     after the beginning of the war.  A while ago, however, I commented and

Page 13268

 1     spoke about the different meeting of the same sort that was held sometime

 2     after this one.  I don't remember exactly when.

 3             Concerning this document that I see in front of me, I would need

 4     to see the end of this document to see who signed it, and with an

 5     apology, I would like to remind you of a mistake made by Mr. Tieger,

 6     intentionally or unintentionally, when he said that at the Assembly

 7     session I asked how to divide Sarajevo.  This is not true, and one can

 8     see from the minutes that I never asked anyone how to divide Sarajevo.

 9     Instead, I laid stress on a peaceful agreement.

10        Q.   We have your words here in court, Mr. Prstojevic.  We have your

11     words on paper, and I'm sure the Court will be attendant to all of the

12     information available to it.

13             Now, this document was signed by Mr. Galic, commander of the SRK.

14     And if it will assist you in -- I'm happy to look at the back of the

15     document.

16             And now I want to turn to the tasks that emerged from the meeting

17     on Jahorina on the 6th of September, 1992, as reflected in this document,

18     and, in particular, in paragraph 1 on the first page.  It begins:

19             "Ensure stubborn and decisive defence of the lines reached,

20     improve the operational position," and so on.

21             Then it concludes, turning to the portion beginning on the

22     third line from the bottom:

23             "... and liberate and take control of important parts of the

24     city, features close to it (Mojmilo, Stup junction) and estates

25     (Donji Kotorac, Hrasnica, Butmir, and Sokolovic Kolonija)."

Page 13269

 1             Now, first of all, those are the -- Hrasnica, Butmir, and

 2     Sokolovic Kolonija you identified as Muslim areas within Ilidza.  Was

 3     Donji Kotorac also a Muslim area?

 4        A.   Yes.  It was, and it still is, under the Dayton Accords.

 5        Q.   And what about Gornji Kotorac?  Had that been a Muslim area too?

 6        A.   Kotorac is a single local commune in its own right.

 7        Q.   Well, there's a reference to Donji Kotorac.  Was there a

 8     Gornji Kotorac as well?

 9        A.   That's one and the same neighbourhood.  Kotorac was a local

10     commune that had 1.950 inhabitants; 1.083 of them were Muslims and the

11     rest was the Christian majority.  The Muslims were mainly concentrated in

12     Donji Kotorac, and in an enclave in Gornji Kotorac as well, which is

13     within the Serbian-populated area.  There are about 70 households there.

14     So if you multiply that by 4, that makes up to 300 residents.

15             However, this line, Butmir, Kotorac and Donji Kotorac and Ilaca,

16     elevation 655 Crveni Klanac, et cetera, was strategically significant

17     both for the Muslims and for us.  And for that reason Gornji Kotorac and

18     Srednji Kotorac were to become the area of permanent activity by

19     artillery, and practically, the Muslim and the Serbian populations would

20     be evacuated from that area.  In Srednji and Gornji, a total of

21     41 civilians were killed, 39 Serbs and 2 Muslims.

22        Q.   Let me turn to another document quickly in connection with

23     liberating certain areas of Ilidza, and that would be 65 ter 10773.

24             Mr. Prstojevic, this is an excerpt from the minutes of the second

25     Assembly of the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza, which was held on the

Page 13270

 1     29th of August, 1992, as it indicates in the beginning of the document.

 2     It indicates that 41 deputies attended the session and you, president of

 3     the Assembly of the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza, opened the session.

 4     The agenda included an opening speech by the president of the Serbian

 5     municipality on the political and security situation, and in item 1 that

 6     opening speech is reflected, including information about, as we see on

 7     the fifth line from the -- below the heading "Item 1":

 8             "Military Command - realisation of wartime goals, defence and

 9     liberation of yet not-liberated territories."

10             Do you recall that meeting, Mr. Prstojevic?

11        A.   Yes.  That was the second session of the Municipal Assembly of

12     the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza.

13        Q.   And does item 1 reflect you speaking to the persons assembled?

14        A.   Yes, it does.

15        Q.   What were the wartime goals, and what were the yet not-liberated

16     territories to which you referred?

17        A.   Our primary wartime goal was to defend the Serbian ethnic

18     territories, and that wasn't an easy task at all.  However, that is in

19     line 4 where I make this specific reference.

20             One has to look into the future with a certain degree of

21     optimism.  Given that the Muslim forces were attacking us constantly, we

22     issued verbal threats, saying that we would also launch offensive

23     operations against certain territories, but we never did that.  And now I

24     say that according to the order of the Main Staff of the Army of

25     Republika Srpska, I can say that units of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps never

Page 13271

 1     attacked Hrasnica 1, Hrasnica 2, Sokolovic Kolonija or Butmir with a view

 2     to taking possession of these territories.

 3             Furthermore, pursuant to our decision to establish the Serbian

 4     municipality, these local communes that I named, including Stupsko Brdo

 5     and Donji Kotorac, were not part of our municipality.  However, in

 6     parliamentary debates, if any of the deputies was satisfied by what

 7     somebody said but we thought that was irrelevant and not worthy of

 8     implementation, that could become a conclusion.  The person who proposed

 9     it would write a conclusion but it would just remain on paper.

10             I was surprised to see that this is what the Main Staff said,

11     because we would not do it, but I know, and in the conclusions from this

12     particular Assembly session, one can find approximately identical things,

13     but there is no evidence that we every launched any offensives against

14     these territories.  We stand by it, and you can ask the Muslims to

15     confirm that.

16        Q.   Sorry, just a brief technical problem.  Just turning quickly to

17     page 2.  There's reference there in the item marked number 1, and I think

18     that's what you're referring to in talking about various conclusions, to

19     the "Proposal of decisions from the meeting of the Deputies' Club:

20             "1.  In order to free and complete the territory of the Serbian

21     municipality of Ilidza it is necessary to urgently coordinate operations

22     for establishing of the corridor - route through Lukavica."

23             And for that important task, co-ordination between all military

24     units, the public security station, et cetera, would be necessary.

25             Through what territory did that corridor discussed here through

Page 13272

 1     to Lukavica go?

 2        A.   I'd like to read a sentence that you intentionally left out from

 3     the second paragraph, which reads:

 4             "In order to complete this important task, it is necessary to

 5     establish co-ordination between all military authorities, and to ensure,"

 6     that you left out, "unity of command over all armed forces, armed groups

 7     and individuals."

 8             I would like to underline that this demonstrates that we did not

 9     support any paramilitary units.

10             Now, back to your question --

11        Q.   No, Mr. Prstojevic.  Before you go on, I'd like to say one thing

12     to you.  I think I've treated you with a great deal of courtesy.  This

13     document is in front of the Court.  I specifically referred to that

14     sentence, and I would ask you to refrain from allegations and

15     accusations, especially when they're so unfounded.  And I will try to

16     maintain an appropriate decorum here and I urge you to do the same.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Witness, I endorse that which Mr. Tieger has

18     said.  The role of witness is to answer questions honestly and

19     impartially.

20             JUDGE BAIRD:  And, Mr. Witness, I endorse what Mr. Tieger and my

21     colleague has said.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  Then I apologise to

23     Mr. Tieger.

24             Why do we have this conclusion?  In this month, and I'll check

25     the exact date, the Serbian leadership handed over Butmir airport in

Page 13273

 1     Sarajevo that had been under our control of our forces, and this is where

 2     the traffic ran along the tarmac between the eastern and western parts of

 3     Ilidza.  However, after the airport was handed over to the UN

 4     international forces, for quite some time, I don't know whether it was a

 5     year or more, we were not able to travel along that route, but, rather,

 6     we had to go around the entire Sarajevo in westerly and north-westerly

 7     direction as well as a north-easterly direction in order to reach that

 8     particular point.

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, excuse me.  Sorry to interrupt, but you're

11     clearly reading from a document.  What is that document?

12        A.   This is a document -- what you have on the screen I am holding in

13     my hand a hard copy of that, and I'm reading from it.  So this is an

14     excerpt from the minutes of meeting of the second Assembly of the Serbian

15     Municipality of Ilidza.  I'm just reading.  I'm not inventing this.  I've

16     just moved on a bit.

17        Q.   That's not a problem.  If you could just let us know when

18     you're -- when you're doing so.  It's so everyone knows what's happening

19     at any given time.  I'm not trying to preclude you from referring to

20     documents you've brought.  If you're looking at a particular document, if

21     you can just let us know what it is.

22        A.   That's this document.  Now, I can tell you that in my briefcase I

23     have all my testimonies from 2003, 2005, and 2006, as well as my

24     testimony in the Krajisnik case and the proofing notes.  That's why I

25     have so many documents in this briefcase.

Page 13274

 1             Secondly, when I came here, I started writing something about the

 2     winter period in Ilidza, and I have these notes here with me, and I can

 3     consult them whenever it's necessary.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can be of assistance.  I -- I

 5     suppose the witness said, "I'm not reading.  I'm just telling you.  I'm

 6     just looking at the conclusions."

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The essence was that the deputies

 8     asked for a corridor to be opened towards Lukavica, instead of travelling

 9     for three hours and being exposed to fire from Lukavica.

10             Let us look at the tasks assigned to the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

11     and its brigade, and it will not be done.  This corridor would not be

12     open until the end of the war, because in the meantime, UNPROFOR allowed

13     us certain slots for crossing across the tarmac.  And this could only

14     refer to the fighting in Dobrinja, not Butmir, because Butmir is a

15     neighbourhood where indigenous people live and these people were nice and

16     they attacked us and they -- otherwise they wouldn't have attacked us had

17     that not been ordered by the leadership.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again I have to ask for a

19     clarification.  The witness said that "we were being shot at on our way

20     to Lukavica," and in the transcript it says that fire was going

21     Lukavica -- no, opened towards Lukavica.  Did the witness -- to fire from

22     Lukavica.  No.  Fire from Lukavica could not have targeted the Serbian

23     corridor.  Can we clarify that?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The point is that that was a route

25     that took three hours to cover between Rajlovac, Vogosca, Pale, and

Page 13275

 1     finally Lukavica.  Certain areas were covered by snipers and by

 2     machine-gun fire, and everybody who was travel along that route risked

 3     their lives.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   Okay.  I'm going to show you another document, Mr. Prstojevic,

 6     but before I do let me --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I am not complaining particularly about this

 8     intervention, but I think it's -- it should be noted that the proper way

 9     of making an intervention of that sort is to note simply the problem area

10     and ask for clarification rather than providing what the accused thinks

11     the answer should or must be.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  In principle that must be right, Mr. Tieger, but

13     on the other hand, if there has been an error, the earlier it's pointed

14     out the better.

15             MR. TIEGER:  No, as I say, Your Honour, I've no problems with

16     interventions to seek needed clarifications to the transcript, but I

17     think it's important that we don't get in the habit of doing it in a way

18     that could cause problems.

19             Can we turn, please, to 65 ter 09 -- 0898 -- oh, and I tender

20     this document, Mr. President.  The previous document, 10773.  And I would

21     also tender the portion of the video-clip from before, which was 04132.

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Concerning video-clip, I think that

24     the witness only identified the speaker.  He couldn't contribute anything

25     about the views and positions of Mr. Ostojic, and I'm also making this

Page 13276

 1     point as a matter of principle.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  He nevertheless did identify the speaker, and

 3     for that purpose at least the video should be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The video will be

 5     Exhibit P2448, and the document 10773 will be Exhibit P2449.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I wanted to turn next to 65 ter 0989.  And

 8     perhaps before we get into that document -- into -- I think this might be

 9     the wrong one in any event.  Let me ask you a question about the corridor

10     you referred to.  Do you recall when that corridor was to be opened and

11     when there were initial -- and when there were initial attempts to do so?

12        A.   There was only one attempt, and that happened when the Muslims

13     mounted an offensive in June 1992 against us, and it started precisely on

14     the 8th of June, 1992, by an attack launched on all ethnic neighbourhoods

15     around Sarajevo.  At the same time, an offensive was launched from the

16     outside as well.  The municipality of Nova Sarajevo-Lukavica came under

17     fierce attack, also part of Lukavica defended by the Ilidza forces,

18     Kasindol from inside and from outside, Vojkovici, Grlica, Krupac, and

19     Kotorac.  The middle part of the latter village.

20             In the fighting that took place on that day, the 1st Corps

21     sustained the highest losses according to the information provided in the

22     book --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter didn't hear the name of the

24     author of the book.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After our forces stabilised, which

Page 13277

 1     took about five or six days of fighting --

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, not yet and I may not at all ask you for the

 4     details of the corridor operation.  Let's take it a step at a time, okay?

 5             Did the proposals for opening the corridor include the prospects

 6     of an attack on Butmir or Dobrinja?

 7        A.   Butmir?  Never.  But Dobrinja.  I was just about to say that when

 8     we repelled the attacks that went on for about 30 days, the fighting went

 9     on for 30 days, then our army launched an offensive in the

10     Aerodromsko Naselje part of Dobrinja, and Dobrinja 1 and Dobrinja 4.  And

11     that is when an attempt was made to open the corridor in that area.

12             Fighting went on for a few days.  The Muslim forces were pushed

13     away in one area.  About 2.000 to 2.100 housing units were taken, and one

14     stayed there throughout the war in defence.  So an attempt was made to

15     break through the corridor.

16        Q.   You said Butmir never.  Did you never hear about, were you never

17     consulted about the idea to attack Butmir?

18        A.   Please, it was never our understanding that we were waging war

19     against all Muslims.  Rather, against Muslim fanatics and

20     fundamentalists.  Butmir is a neighbourhood where people have lived for a

21     long, long time, and if someone wanted to take Butmir, it would have been

22     easy prey for the Serbian Army.  However, we were against that.  Every

23     neighbour, every inhabitant of Butmir was against that.  That is to say,

24     the entire leadership, and we never attacked Butmir militarily.

25             Also, when the first part of 1992 was over, they didn't attack us

Page 13278

 1     either.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Let's try 65 ter 09 -- 08989 once again.  Thank you,

 3     Mr. Registrar.

 4        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, this is a document I believe you've seen before.

 5     It's headed "Republika Srpska SDS, Ilidza SDS Municipal Board."  Entitled

 6     "The declaration of the agenda of Ilidza SDS for working in wartime."

 7     Arising from a meeting held on the 6th of February, 1993, at which the

 8     Municipal Board of Ilidza SDS adopted its agenda for working in wartime.

 9     And you are familiar with this document; is that correct, Mr. Prstojevic?

10        A.   I'm holding that document in my hands.  It's a document of local

11     nature.  It is from the Municipal Board of the SDS of Ilidza, and it is

12     it is quite literally the programme declaration of the SDS Ilidza for

13     working in wartime conditions.

14             As for this document, we adopted it as our own initiative and no

15     one asked us to adopt it.

16        Q.   And are you familiar with the document?

17        A.   Yes, yes, absolutely.  This is it.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have great trouble

19     hearing the witness.  Could all microphones please be switched off.

20     Thank you.

21             MR. TIEGER:

22        Q.   And is the declaration in any respect inconsistent with your

23     understanding of the position of the RS authorities or the SDS Main Board

24     at the time?

25        A.   We're not -- or, rather, I am the main author of this text.  When

Page 13279

 1     writing this, I did not have the positions of the Main Board of the SDS

 2     at all.  I just had a small working team, and all of us together had

 3     worked out an outline, roughly.

 4        Q.   I understand that, but you stressed that it was a local document,

 5     and I was simply asking you if in any respects you considered this

 6     document that you were primarily responsible for to be inconsistent with

 7     or incompatible with the positions of the RS republic authorities or the

 8     SDS republic authorities.

 9        A.   Well, you see, I haven't really given this any thought, but I

10     think that it is not inconsistent but barely -- basically, what I was

11     bearing in mind was the local interest.

12        Q.   Paragraph 3 again refers to liberated and strengthened control

13     over all Serb ethnic territories.  It also, in the last sentence of

14     paragraph 3, refers to the significant help that the Serb people of

15     Ilidza led by the SDS gave to Serbs on the territories of other

16     municipalities of Srpsko Sarajevo.

17             What were you referring to there?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection, please.  May I?

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  What is your objection, Mr. Karadzic?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The learned Mr. Tieger said that

21     this has to do with liberation.  However, this actually has to do with

22     defence, and that may affect the witness.  The Serb people of the -- the

23     Serb people of Ilidza led by the SDS defended --

24             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me for interrupting, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- did not liberate.

Page 13280

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry to interrupt in that fashion, Your Honour,

 3     but I raised in principle the objection to commentary and giving evidence

 4     in the guise of an objection.  I think that's precisely what's happening

 5     here, and objections should not be framed in that manner.

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, Mr. Tieger beat me to it.  This is

 7     just again a question of commenting by you and an attempt to give

 8     evidence.  Comments such as this have no evidential value, and the basis

 9     of your objection is one which I think is minimal and one which the Court

10     cannot sustain.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just explain why?  May I just

12     say what my understanding was?  My understanding was --

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, you asked if you may, and the

14     answer is at the moment that you may not.

15             Please allow Mr. Tieger to continue.  If there are matters which

16     you want to put into cross-examination in due course on this topic, you

17     are, of course, free to do so.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, again, what were you referring to when you

20     referred to the significant help that the Serb people of Ilidza led by

21     the SDS gave to Serbs on the territories of other municipalities of

22     Srpsko Sarajevo?

23        A.   Well, you see, that is quite clear.  The Serb parts are an

24     integral whole.  When armed combat operations took place, we transferred

25     Territorial Defence units from one part of the municipality and city to

Page 13281

 1     another through the agreement reached by Territorial Defence commanders

 2     or on the basis of agreements reached by commanders of Crisis Staffs.

 3             Had Ilidza not transferred forces from the eastern to the western

 4     part, we would have collapsed.

 5        Q.   And if we could turn to the next page, please.  The previous page

 6     contained the declaration.  This page contains the tasks according to the

 7     agenda.  And the first sentence below that states:

 8             "A black-winged vulture is looming over our Serb land on which we

 9     have lived from times immemorial.  It is threatening to crush our Serb

10     name, Serb culture, and Serb places of worship and to reduce Serbia to

11     the Belgrade pashalic."

12             And it continues -- well, first of all, let me ask you, what is

13     that a reference to?  Who is the black-winged vulture looming over Serb

14     land?

15        A.   Well, you see, we Serbs speak in terms of symbols.  This dragon

16     threatens man with death.  Several hundred years ago, the Serbian empire

17     collapsed, and since then, poetry has said that all of Serbdom was doomed

18     because of a seven-headed dragon.  That is lethal danger in terms of the

19     biological survival of our people in a certain area.

20             This is still the introductory part, but it is truthful because

21     many settlements were practically razed to the ground in Sarajevo,

22     killing all the inhabitants.  I've already mentioned Pofalici.

23        Q.   And were you aware of any Bosnian Serb military operations in

24     which Bosnian Muslim or Bosnian Croat civilians were killed?

25        A.   Probably there were such operations, but at that point in time we

Page 13282

 1     were following the media very seldom because we didn't have time.  War

 2     was being waged day and night.  However, there were crimes probably on

 3     all three sides.

 4        Q.   Return to the document.  Now, the task of the Ilidza SDS also

 5     outlined where the legal authority of Ilidza Serb municipality is to be

 6     established, and that's in section 1.2.  And that appears to contain --

 7     to include what are referred to -- referred to as the non-liberated parts

 8     of Dobrinja, Vojnicko Polje, Serb Trnovo, Butmir, Hrasnica, Sokolovic

 9     Kolonija, and parts of Serb Kiseljak.

10             That was among the tasks arising from the agenda of the Ilidza

11     SDS?

12        A.   That is what is written here, and this is what it says further

13     on:

14             "While achieving this objective, protect loyal non-Serb

15     population to a maximum.  Parts of Kiseljak, there are 700 Serbs living

16     there."

17             They were never a subject of dispute between us and the

18     municipality of Kiseljak.  To this day they have gone on living in the

19     municipality of Kiseljak, and there was no war there.  I've already said

20     that we did not attack Butmir.  We did not attack Hrasnica, Vojnicko

21     Polje.  We did not attack -- I've already spoken about Dobrinja, parts of

22     Trnovo.

23             MR. TIEGER:  And, Your Honour, I would tender this --

24        Q.   Oh, I'm sorry, you're not finished?

25        A.   I haven't finished.  Part of Trnovo -- parts of Trnovo will be

Page 13283

 1     Serb ethnic areas liberated in July 1993.  However, we were not issuing

 2     orders.  It is well known who starts military operations.  This was our

 3     wish.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  And now I tender that document, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2450, Your Honours.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Your Honour.  Just a moment, please.

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MR. TIEGER:

10        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I'd like to turn our attention next to some of

11     the intercepts that you've both heard before and indeed commented on

12     before, I believe, and including some of those that you asked an

13     opportunity to comment on again.  So let me first turn our attention to

14     P1086.

15             Now, I want you to take a look at that quickly.  I'll walk you

16     through it in a moment, but you may recognise it immediately because

17     you've had a chance to both listen and -- listen to the audio and hear

18     and read the transcript before, but it's a conversation that you have

19     with first someone referred to as Mrki and then with a certain Novakovic.

20             And as we see on the first page, toward the bottom, you indicate:

21     "Why did Miki phone me?"  Milenko says:  "Phoned you to check with these

22     people in Kotorac."  Milenko says:  "What should we do with them?"  You

23     ask:  "Did you arrest them?  What did you do?"

24             And continuing on to the second page.  There are continuing

25     questions about whether those people had been arrested.  Milenko says:

Page 13284

 1     "Down there on the road, all of them.  Men are separated from the women."

 2     He says he's just received the word men are in the Kula prison and women

 3     went in the direction of Butmir.  You tell him to put Tepavcevic on and

 4     he puts on Novakovic.  He'll talk to you.  You ask:  "Have you been

 5     cleaning Kotorac today?"  He says:  "They have.  I don't know the exact

 6     details because I was engaged otherwise."  Then continuing the

 7     conversation, you say:  "That's okay, but tell me, please, I beg of you,

 8     why did you take women to Butmir?"  Novakovic says:  "They said women

 9     were not in Butmir, but --"  He says:  "Well, in Butmir, yes, not to

10     KP Dom but to Butmir.  That's where they're going."  And you say:  "They

11     cannot go to Butmir.  We'll mop up," or cistite [phoen], "Butmir in

12     time ..."

13             And you continue, now on the third page:  "Butmir will be mopped

14     up.  Sokolovic will be mopped up.  Hrasnica will be mopped up."

15             Again Novakovic says:  "Well, I don't know where to take them."

16     You say:  "Well, there's Bascarsija.  Please take them all to Bascarsija

17     on foot."  Novakovic says:  "Aha."  You say:  "Women."  Novakovic says:

18     "Okay, now I'll --"  And you say:  "And men to prison."  Novakovic says:

19     "Okay, I'll check with him now and then I'll let you know."  And then you

20     say:  "Yes.  Tell them, those who convert to Orthodox religion on the

21     spot, they can stay, women and children."  Novakovic says:  "Aha, okay,

22     okay."  And you say:  "Do it, please, but don't make mistakes.  You've

23     done an excellent job, but it means that Butmir will be mopped up in

24     time.  Tell that to the people there."

25             And then the conversation concludes as the two of you sign off.

Page 13285

 1             Mr. Prstojevic, you recall this conversation?

 2        A.   I do not recall this conversation.  At first I had disputed it in

 3     2003, and I needed an entire day.  It was only on the following day, when

 4     I refreshed my memory, when I realised what had happened, I heard my

 5     voice.  It was only then that I accepted that this was my conversation

 6     and that I could comment on it.  So I accept that.  But another thing,

 7     you have briefly recounted this conversation.  According to the way you

 8     recounted it, I'm as black as a raven.  If one elaborates on this speech

 9     analytically, one comes to something different.  The real, actual state

10     of affairs.  That's what I did best in 2003.  I have that in my briefcase

11     here, because I had enough time.

12             However, this is the gravest document that Ilidza has.  In order

13     to get the right picture, because there are omitted words and sentences

14     in the text, there are also mistakes in the translation.  I have here

15     before me this conversation.  I got it from you in 2005.  I would like

16     the original conversation to be heard before this Honourable

17     Trial Chamber so that I could make corrections in terms of the omissions

18     that were made and then analytically explain the -- the conversation.  So

19     here I am and here are the paragraphs of the law too.

20        Q.   I'm -- okay.  A couple things, Mr. Prstojevic.  First of all, I

21     read from the transcript.  I didn't sort of recount it as you say.  So

22     can you identify right now some of the -- and you say what I read

23     indicates that you're black as a raven.  Do you want to read out now the

24     good-guy portions of that intercept?

25        A.   I will tell you that I sleep peacefully and that people from this

Page 13286

 1     neighbourhood visited me after the war as neighbours.  But I would like

 2     the conversation to be heard, and it is only then that I can comment upon

 3     the conversation.

 4             As for the Trial Chamber, I will explain to them what symbols

 5     are, what reality is, and what is transcended, although you have read it

 6     out, because it's quite clear I say "women and children."  The frail

 7     ones.  All of those who are not military-age men can stay.  But if it's

 8     just in the context of a sentence, then you sort of neglect it, and what

 9     you put in the focus is receiving the Orthodox faith.

10             Starting from the Serb uprisings against the Turks, from the

11     early 1800s, we are --

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger, is this a line that the Prosecution

13     wants to elaborate on at this particular juncture?

14             MR. TIEGER:  Not particularly, Your Honour, but I don't -- I

15     don't shrink from playing the intercept, and I -- it appears that the

16     Prosecution is being challenged as omitting portions of the intercept or

17     referring only to particular portions.  I'm certainly in the Court's

18     hands in that -- in that respect.  As far as I'm concerned, it's a

19     document that speaks quite sufficiently on its own.  I'm happy that the

20     witness is free to comment on it, but I don't know that we need to dwell

21     on it for an undue period of time, but I am in the Court's hands in that

22     way.  As I say, I do not shrink in any way from playing this intercept in

23     its entirety.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  Witness, you started off your answers in respect

25     of this intercept by saying that you didn't remember it.  It seems to me

Page 13287

 1     that you're now saying that you accept that it is your words, that you

 2     were a participant in the conversation which has been recorded, but you

 3     are now saying that the full content of what you said has not been

 4     incorporated into the transcript.  Am I right in that analysis?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Look, in 2003, I did not accept

 6     this conversation as mine on the first day because I only had the

 7     transcript, and it looked to me as if it was combined of three parts.

 8     However, in 2003, I did accept that as a conversation of mine with an

 9     unknown person, because he introduced himself under a code-name, and I

10     still don't know who that is.  However, we did not use code-names or

11     pseudonyms during the war.

12             Now, why I want to have this conversation played, to point out

13     the places that were omitted by the interpreter and to clarify the

14     conversation, to explain, first of all, what happened in that

15     neighbourhood, under what conditions this conversation took place,

16     because this conversation was conducted during fierce fighting, when we

17     had ten -- eight dead and ten wounded on that day, and also eastern

18     Ilidza came under attack from that part as well on that day.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  One moment, Dr. Karadzic.

20             So is the answer to my question "Yes"?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is my conversation with

22     an unknown individual.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

24             Dr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Two interventions in the

Page 13288

 1     transcript.  Line 24, page 79.  It's unfinished.  The witness said that

 2     this poetic figure was an issue of loyalty, and then 81, line 5, let us

 3     repeat precisely how many people were killed and how many were wounded.

 4     I think that the figures in the transcript are wrong.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, that can be checked.

 6             Back to you, Mr. Tieger.  This is a Prosecution witness, and it's

 7     your case.  I'm not seeking -- the Bench will not seek to determine for

 8     the Prosecution how it should proceed, but if the witness is not

 9     satisfied with the accuracy of the transcript, then it's of less weight

10     and value in due course to the Court.

11             MR. TIEGER:  And I will not go through this exercise with every

12     intercept, but in this particular case, let's play it.  Do the

13     interpreters have the transcript?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  We don't.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  There's an alternative, of course.  What could

16     happen is that we could move on to another topic, but in the adjournment,

17     which is inevitable and going to start in about 25 minutes, the witness

18     could compare the transcript with the tape himself, as could somebody

19     from the Office of the Prosecution.  If there's unanimity, then there's

20     no issue.  If there is an issue, then the issues can be tested in due

21     course.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'd like to -- if it's possible to play

23     this now, I'd like to do it.  I think the witness is going to assist on

24     that in any event.  I would like to move past this issue, get on to the

25     remainder of the examination and conclude it.  I hadn't -- I had hoped it

Page 13289

 1     wouldn't be this long.  This seems, probably for understandable reasons,

 2     to be a focus of the witness and I'd like to get out of the way.  But

 3     let's see if we can get a transcript to the interpreters as soon as

 4     possible.  That will take a couple minutes.  I'll move on to something

 5     else.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I intervene?

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  If it's going to be useful, Dr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, hopefully the majority of my

 9     interventions are useful.

10             If we give the transcript to the interpreters, we will achieve

11     nothing, because the witness had an objection to the translation as well.

12             Could we ask the interpreters to interpret this live?

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  As I understand it, that's what we're about to

14     embark upon, so that's what Mr. Tieger's intentions are.

15             MR. TIEGER:

16        Q.   Witness, do I understand you have a transcript of this

17     conversation in front of you?

18        A.   Yes, I do.

19        Q.   Well, why don't you stop us where you say that something

20     significant has been left out of the transcription of that conversation

21     as we listen to it.

22        A.   Well, according to the three dots that appear, there will be

23     pretty much of that that is left out, but all right, I will stop it.

24        Q.   You do that on the basis of the audio.  And can you please read

25     out the marking of that transcript that you're looking at, the number.

Page 13290

 1     It should have a number at the very top.

 2        A.   CD76-9-3 over 04 over 026.

 3        Q.   And is there a number immediately above that to the right?

 4        A.   There is 0401-3853.  It's difficult to see because I have it in

 5     handwriting.  Yes, it is correct.

 6        Q.   That's fine, thanks.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. Reid.

 8                           [Audiotape played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover]

10             "Prstojevic:  Hello, hello.  Good evening.  How are you?

11             "UMP:  It will be better.

12             "Prstojevic:  This is Prstojevic.  I need to speak to Mrki.

13             "UMP:  Mrki is not here.  Mrki 2 is here.

14             "Prstojevic:  Give me Mrki 2.

15             "UMP:  One moment."

16             THE INTERPRETER:  This portion is inaudible, interpreter's note.

17             [Voiceover] "Prstojevic:  Good evening.  How are you?  This is

18     Prstojevic.

19             "Milenko:  I am Mika's deputy.

20             "Prstojevic:  Yes.  What is your name?

21             "Milenko:  Milenko.

22             "Prstojevic:  Why did Mika call me?

23             "Milenko:  He wanted to see about these people in Kotorac, what

24     to do about them.

25             "Prstojevic:  Did you arrest them?  What did you do?

Page 13291

 1             "Milenko:  People are down there now.  Moment, just a moment.

 2             "Prstojevic:  Hello?

 3             "Milenko:  Yes.

 4             "Prstojevic:  And where are these people?  Have they been

 5     arrested?

 6             "Milenko:  No.

 7             "Prstojevic:  What happened?

 8             "Milenko:  Down on the road, everything.  We have men separated

 9     and women are on the road also separated.  Just a moment.

10             "Prstojevic:  Above ... yes?

11             "Milenko:  Men say ... now I just received information that men

12     are in the prison in Kula and women had left towards Butmir."

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note, this is too fast for a

14     simultaneous interpretation.  And sound quality is terrible.

15             [Voiceover] "Novakovic:  Women are not in Butmir.

16             "Prstojevic:  They cannot go to Butmir.  Butmir is going to be

17     mopped up.  How about Bascarsija?  And put the men in prison.

18             "Novakovic:  All right.  Then we'll call back to you.

19             "Prstojevic:  And as I say, those who convert to Orthodox

20     Christianity can stay, the women and children.

21             "Novakovic:  All right.  All right.

22             "Prstojevic:  But please don't make any mistakes.  You did this

23     excellently, which means that Butmir is going to be mopped up with time.

24     Tell those people up there.

25             "Novakovic:  All right.

Page 13292

 1             "Prstojevic:  Good-bye."

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Prstojevic, the Court will also have a chance to listen

 4     to that audio on its own, to hear the sound of your voice, to hear the

 5     response of your interlocutor, but why don't you tell the Court now what

 6     your problem with this intercept is.

 7        A.   There are words that were left out.  However, they do not affect

 8     the content significantly, because the interpreters managed to catch what

 9     was important.  I didn't stop the tape for that reason.

10             There is some problem on the last page, and if you allow me, I

11     will try to check the content of this conversation to the best of my

12     ability, and for that purpose it is necessary to explain what happened in

13     Kotorac on that day and on the night between the 22nd and the 23rd of

14     April, because this is significant for the 300 Muslim residents --

15     residents of Gornji Kotor.  Everything else is a completely different

16     story, and the witnesses will contribute to establishing precisely the --

17     the facts who appear in the court in Sarajevo.

18             On the 21st, when the first all-out attack on Ilidza took place,

19     which was the first ordered attack on a Serbian village, according to the

20     Muslim information we had 11 dead and 56 wounded.  However, it was also

21     ordered that this village where there were 300 residents --

22        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I gave you an opportunity to explain what you

23     wanted to explain which was what was left out in this intercept,

24     according to you.  Now you verified the intercept, and you embarked on

25     your explanation of its -- the entirety of its backdrop, and that was not

Page 13293

 1     what you asked to do originally, and that's not what I'm asking you to do

 2     now, but I do have some questions about this, first of all.

 3             So with respect to what we heard from the interpreters and what I

 4     understand you to have affirmed, there's a reference to taking them all

 5     to Bascarsija on foot.  Can you tell the Court, please, where Bascarsija

 6     was and what kind of area it was.

 7        A.   Please, I will say that.  However, at the point when this

 8     conversation took place, the entire civilian population was already, for

 9     several hours, from 14.30 until 1900 hours, when I was approximately

10     having this conversation, this entire population was in Dobrinja 1 or in

11     Butmir.

12             Bascarsija is, if you take the roundabout road through deep

13     Serbian territory, about ten kilometres away.  That is a centre where

14     there are certain craftsmen and where there are shops.  It symbolises the

15     Muslim Sarajevo under Muslim control.

16             In this case of Dobrinja 1, it is 300 metres away from us.  That

17     is where imprisoned soldiers and civilians were.

18             And as for the other case, those who went to Butmir, that is only

19     700 metres away.

20             I ask you kindly, Mr. Tieger, in line 4, I say, "Good evening."

21     And then in the other two penultimate lines I say "good evening" twice.

22     I ran in after combat, because we had 8 killed and 50 wounded.  You have

23     that there.  And I saw that someone called me, code-name unknown.  I left

24     my rifle there and I started talking.  To this day, I think -- well, this

25     is the telephone of the public security station of Kula and all of this

Page 13294

 1     was happening before the public security station of Kula.  I think that

 2     someone for some reason coded this and looked for cover from me for

 3     something that had already been done.  I'm not trying to evade anything.

 4     Who carried out an armed attack took part in combat and therefore had to

 5     take the consequences as well.

 6             Now, people with weapons, who were operating with weapons, well,

 7     women, children, and many of those who were military conscripts but who

 8     actually drove luxury passenger cars or tractors, went wherever they

 9     wanted to and no one searched them, but some military conscripts, I don't

10     know how many of them there were, at any rate there were less than 20 of

11     them, they were kept in prison for ten days, and then they were

12     released -- or, rather, exchanged without any further court proceedings.

13        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, the Court's time is limited.  I'm going to move

14     on to another intercept.  I'd like to move on to P1492, please.

15             Mr. Prstojevic, this is an intercept that is dated the

16     14th of June, 1992, and again it's one you not only had an opportunity to

17     listen to more than once but also comment on in court.  And it's a

18     conversation between you and a certain Radomir, and then Dragan, and

19     identified there apparently as Dragan Despotovic.

20             First of all, just looking at it quickly, do you remember this

21     was raised during the course of the Krajisnik case, and do you remember

22     this, the discussion about this intercepted conversation?

23        A.   This was shown in Mr. Krajisnik's case, but I've said that

24     generally I do not remember any conversations, but I'm interpreting this

25     and trying to place it in time.  I said no one was killed, no one was

Page 13295

 1     wounded, whereas there will be some Muslims staying on.  Two will get

 2     killed only in June, but we are going to have the greatest number of

 3     casualties among the civilian population in any local commune, 39,

 4     because this was a zone of incessant combat between the two sides, the

 5     Serbs and the Muslims.  And everybody escaped from there, and those who

 6     did not manage to escape got killed, those 39.

 7        Q.   Let me take you to a few portions of this conversation quickly

 8     and elicit some comments before our time concludes for today.

 9             So if we can turn to the second page.  You asked Dragan the

10     question:

11             "But tell me, did they disconnect all the phones of the Turks in

12     Kasindol?"  He says:  "Sorry?"  You say:  "Did they disconnect the phones

13     in Kasindol."  And Dragan says:  "All the phones are getting

14     disconnected."  You say:  "They are getting disconnected?"  Dragan says:

15     "Everybody's."  And you ask:  "Had they been disconnected before?"  And

16     he said:  "Well, theirs had been disconnected before."

17             Now the conversation continues on the next page, and you say:

18     "But tell me this, please."  Dragan says:  "Yes?"  "Well, what shall we

19     do?  Would it be good if we gave it a thought and if we organised people

20     from a side or outside to expel them all.  Nobody needs to be shot or

21     killed, everybody expelled."  And Dragan says:  "That would be the right

22     move."  And you say:  "That is a bit -- let's say that you make

23     preparations.  I have a decision from before."  Dragan says:  "Well, we

24     tried it once but then there were some guardians and it remained that

25     way."  And you say:  "Well, you cannot.  No, they won't -- he will -- let

Page 13296

 1     him come if the people are still standing.  When they arrive, they will

 2     go to hell.  He will go with them too."  Dragan says:  "Agreed."  And you

 3     say:  "Up to Bascarsija."

 4             Now, first of all, Mr. Prstojevic, I take it that in this

 5     conversation you're referring to the same Bascarsija you were referring

 6     to before.

 7        A.   This symbolises the Muslim part of Sarajevo.

 8        Q.   And when you refer to organising people from outside to expel

 9     them all, who did you have in mind?

10        A.   Please, this conversation is taking place during the July

11     offensive of the Muslims, and you did not read this out here, that that

12     neighbourhood -- I mean, I am from that neighbourhood.  That is the last

13     one before Trnovo.  Sparsely populated.  It was attacked from the inside

14     and the outside.  You did not say that the artillery was hitting very

15     precisely.  I am talking to a man here who was are involved in

16     Red Cross-like activity.  He was not able-bodied for military service.

17     You see, there are only 1.005 Muslims out of a total population of 1.703.

18     That is to say --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I intervene?

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  No, not at this point, Dr. Karadzic.

21             Mr. Witness, do you have a short and affirmative or a short

22     answer, in any event, to Mr. Tieger's question?  Regardless of the

23     surrounding circumstances, who did you mean by people from outside?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, it is well known who these

25     people are in such a situation, when a place is jeopardised and when its

Page 13297

 1     territory can fall.  That is to say, the MUP and the military police come

 2     out, run out, and they arrest all those who are military age, even if

 3     they're Serbian, and if they are escaping from the area.  And if there is

 4     a fifth column involved, then they have to search premises and check who

 5     it is that is firing from this fifth column and who is guiding the

 6     artillery, because this is Kotlina.  Somebody had to guide the artillery

 7     and correct fire.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  The question that Mr. Tieger asked was in

 9     relation to this:  "Would it be good if we gave it a thought if we

10     organised people from outside to expel them all?"  Are you then saying in

11     your answer that what you meant was that the MUP and the military police

12     should be the people to expel them?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But the MUP from the western part

14     of Ilidza and the military police, but, Your Honour, these people never

15     moved out.  Out of these 25 households I know at least five households

16     that remained with us throughout the war.  One of the houses is

17     200 metres away from my house, and they live there to this day.  That is

18     to say, we did not do that because the offensive was over.  There was no

19     need any longer and nothing was done.

20             MR. TIEGER:  And I will make this, if I may, Your Honour, the

21     last question.

22        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, you said:

23             "Well, it is well known who these people are in such a situation,

24     when a place is jeopardised ..."

25             You were asked about this --

Page 13298

 1             MR. TIEGER:  And now I am impeaching or refreshing, take it any

 2     way, and I think I have the Court's permission, I trust.

 3        Q.   You were asked in 2005 about this very conversation, and at

 4     page 41, you were asked:

 5             "When you say 'bring people from outside,' who are you thinking

 6     of?"

 7             That's page 41 of the English and in the B/C/S page 77.

 8             And your answer was:

 9             "For example, I think about the group of Arkan's, group of Boban,

10     Brne's group who was from Pale, any unit from outside."

11             That's what you said, isn't it, Mr. Prstojevic, and that's what

12     you meant by "people from outside."

13        A.   That is not correct.  I am going to review that after this, or

14     I'm asking for a break straight away so that I review it.  I did not say

15     that.  You are totally deluded, Mr. Tieger.  You will see I have all the

16     answers that I provided.  It's in this documentation that I have in my

17     briefcase.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger, how much longer in chief?

19             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if we continued at the same rate, of

20     course it would be a considerable time.  I am going to review both this

21     transcript, the -- consider the witness's positions, and I can assure the

22     Court I will endeavour to reduce the remainder of the

23     examination-in-chief to a minimum.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  I am simply thinking -- I'm principally thinking

25     of the witness that is fixed for next week, whether or not there might be

Page 13299

 1     a necessity to interpose.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I -- well, I'm sure in light of the length of

 3     cross-examination that has been allocated that will -- and I appreciate

 4     that the Court was going to review that.  I will certainly stick to my

 5     previous estimate which leaves me with only a relatively limited amount

 6     of remaining time, but I still don't -- unless the Court adjusts the

 7     allocation of cross-examination time in a manner I didn't anticipate,

 8     then I think the witness -- the fixed witness would intervene.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.

10             We will rise now, and we will --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say a word?

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Again, if it's -- if it's substantially useful,

13     yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm afraid that correcting

15     the transcript will go to the detriment of my time for cross-examination,

16     and I found many mistakes.  For example, it's not the July -- the July

17     offensive but it's the June offensive, and it's not 1.005 or 105.  So

18     it -- and the Serbs are a majority.  So this significantly changes the

19     essence.  And I'm afraid that I'm going to spend a considerable amount of

20     time in correcting these transcripts, because they are being selectively

21     presented, which is Mr. Tieger's right, but I really am afraid that I'm

22     not going to have enough time.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it,

24     which is always the best thing to do.

25             We'll now rise, and we will sit again at 9.00 on Tuesday morning.

Page 13300

 1                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.34 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 15th day

 3                           of March, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.