Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13527

 1                           Thursday, 17 March 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             Obviously, we are sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with

 7     Judge Morrison being away due to his urgent matters.  He will join us

 8     tomorrow.

 9             Yes, Mr. Tieger.  Good morning to you.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Good morning, Mr. President, and good morning,

11     Your Honours, and everyone in and around the courtroom.

12             I just wanted to raise a couple of matters in connection with

13     Mr. Robinson's submissions yesterday.  Let me make it clear from the

14     outset, I'm not attempting in any way to revisit the Court's decision,

15     but simply to clarify some matters on the record so the record is as

16     clear as possible.

17             First, with respect to the submissions in support of the motion

18     for additional time, Mr. Robinson mentioned the credibility of

19     General Smith and appeared to represent that the general had stated that:

20             "They had no capability to use laser-guided weapons for the

21     air-strikes."

22             Although it's not entirely clear who is meant by "they" in that

23     reference, we were unable, in any event, to find support for that

24     submission in General Smith's evidence and would, at least, request an

25     appropriate transcript cite or a correction in respect of that.

Page 13528

 1             Secondly, with respect to the submission that a notation in

 2     Mr. Banbury's notebook would be the "first confirmation" that there was,

 3     on the UN side, negotiations for exchange, I note that while it's

 4     somewhat unclear, what was meant by "first confirmation," it certainly

 5     suggests that the information was new or unique, and in that regard I

 6     would direct the Trial Chamber to the cross-examination of General Smith

 7     at transcript pages 11891 to 11894 on the 15th of February, where the

 8     accused cross-examined and received information on that very issue.

 9             And, finally, Mr. President, with respect to the submissions

10     suggesting that the problem with getting to these particular questions

11     that are the subject of today's extended hearing were the responsibility

12     or the fault of the Court's allocation of time, we would reject that

13     characterisation.  The review of the record, we believe, demonstrates

14     that those matters could have been embraced within the time allotted

15     easily, with a focused cross-examination, without argumentation or

16     commentary, et cetera, and the responsibility lies with the accused.

17             Those are the points I wanted to raise.  Thank you for your time,

18     Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Taking this opportunity of the witness being absent:

20     After this witness, we'll be resuming to hear Mr. Prstojevic's remaining

21     examination-in-chief.  For the planning purpose, can I hear from you?

22     How long would you take for your remainder of your examination-in-chief?

23             MR. TIEGER:  My expectation is to complete it within one session,

24     if not sooner; that is, an hour-and-a-half session.  And I will actually

25     be making -- or raising a point in that regard to facilitate the process,

Page 13529

 1     I trust.  But as the Court is aware, projecting time-periods in this

 2     instance is a little more difficult than it normally is, but that's my

 3     hope and expectation, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic:

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wouldn't wish to oppose respected

 6     Mr. Tieger, but just the fact the notes were written by hand and I had to

 7     ask Mr. Robinson, as an American, to try to decipher it, I am not able to

 8     read, and it's a huge amount.  If the OTP had transcribed it, if we had

 9     it typed out, I would have studied it in time, and probably there would

10     be other elements that would be significant.

11             That's all.

12             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Robinson, now, Mr. Tieger did say that this

13     would not be a revisiting of the Court's decision, but we should like

14     very much to hear you on his submission this morning.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you very much, Judge Baird.

16             I was feeling uneasy myself when the Prosecutor sometimes says

17     that I mischaracterised the record and then we just move on.

18             So I would like to call your attention to, first of all, on the

19     transcript of the 15th of January, 2011, page 11880, where General Smith

20     said there were no forward air controllers involved in the attacks

21     carried out in May, which is what I was referring to when we talked about

22     the laser-guided bombs.

23             Secondly, with respect to the exchange of prisoners, on the 15th

24     of February, at page 11894, General Smith said that he thinks that there

25     was an exchange, but he wasn't involved, essentially, in the

Page 13530

 1     negotiations, which is true, because that was being done by

 2     General Janvier, who was working directly with Mr. Banbury in Zagreb at

 3     the time.

 4             So those are the two references for the points that I made, and I

 5     stand by my submissions that I made yesterday.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you very much indeed.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Well, the Chamber wants to make sure that the

 8     allowance for additional time was granted on an exceptional basis, and

 9     this should not be interpreted as a precedent.

10             And, finally, for planning purposes, the Chamber will sit on

11     Monday next week.  And thanks to the Tolimir Bench, we'll be able to sit

12     in an extended format, i.e., from 9.00 to 2.30.

13             Let's bring in the witness.

14             Mr. Karadzic, you'll have about half an hour, and the

15     subject-matter is to be limited to the issues relating to his notes.

16             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you, Excellency.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18                           WITNESS:  ANTHONY BANBURY [Resumed]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Banbury.

20             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning, everyone.

22                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Banbury.

24             I would like to ask you something, as briefly as possible, which

25     concerns your notes.

Page 13531

 1             Firstly, could you tell me, as I know that you are being promoted

 2     now along the UN lines, but at the time when you were making these notes,

 3     what was your role?  Was your role to note this truthfully?

 4        A.   Yes, one of my roles was to attend meetings that my superiors

 5     were attending as the principal, and I was there to essentially record

 6     what had transpired and then to draft a report to either UNPROFOR

 7     headquarters -- normally, UNPROFOR headquarters, recounting the event,

 8     the meeting, what the exchanges had been, and then to provide an

 9     assessment of the meaning or significance of the exchange that had taken

10     place.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you take part in the talks?

12        A.   At times, and perhaps more so as time went on and my superiors

13     became more knowledgeable of my role or my contributions.  I perhaps

14     spoke up a little bit more.  But normally, my role was to be silent, but

15     sometimes I spoke.

16        Q.   And did you change anything that was said or did you record

17     everything as truthfully as possible?

18        A.   I recorded everything as truthfully as possible.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Could we now please see in e-court 1D3476.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is this the 12th notebook, book 12 of your note-books, which

23     begins on the 17th of May, which deals with the month of May 1995 through

24     to the 10th of June; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 13532

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Could we now please see page 29 in e-court.  Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you please identify the participants of this meeting held on

 5     the 24th of May?

 6        A.   That would be the deputy force commander, the NATO liaison

 7     officer, Colonel Rudd, John Almstrom -- "J.G." is probably

 8     Jack Greenberg, Emma Shitaka, who was a political affairs officer,

 9     Chris Gunnas [phoen], who worked in the spokesman's office, myself,

10     "A.B.," together with the SRSG -- sorry, together with the SRSG.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please continue and explain to us what you

12     recorded in the following five or six lines?  Can you just explain to us

13     what this refers to?

14        A.   There would have been a discussion on the situation of Sarajevo,

15     a question of whether air-strikes were appropriate.  Seven Bosnian

16     military and eighteen Bosnian Serb Army confirmed violations of the heavy

17     weapons exclusion zone.  The SRSG said:

18             "Maybe hit them at the ratio of 3:1."

19             I suppose he was referring there to air-strikes against both the

20     Bosnian Serb Army and the Bosnian Government:

21             "Three weapons collection points were being used by the

22     Bosnian Serb Army in today's shellings; i.e., weapons -- heavy weapons

23     from the UN-monitored weapons collection points within the 20-kilometre

24     heavy weapons exclusion zone were being used by the Bosnian Serb Army to

25     participate in the shelling.

Page 13533

 1             "Smith was thinking that we would strike tomorrow, we'll use

 2     laser-guided bombs."

 3             Four weapons are loose from the weapons collections point -- four

 4     weapons have been taken out of the weapons collections points and

 5     presumably were beyond UNPROFOR's monitoring at that point.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And "Smith," that is Admiral Smith; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, excuse me, yes, Admiral Smith.

 8        Q.   Could I ask you to explain the penultimate line for us, because

 9     I think one of the words has not been recorded.

10             [In English] "Laser-guided bomb"?

11        A.   Yeah, I'm sorry, I can't read my own writing there.  I don't know

12     what kind of bombs.  "Laser-guided --"

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Would it be "smart bombs"?

14             THE WITNESS:  I think that's probably what it is.  Yes, sir,

15     "smart bombs," "laser-guided smart bombs."  Yes, that's probably what it

16     is.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Could we now please see page 33 of this document.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Please have a look at the following sentence.  The first,

21     second -- the sixth line from above, the special representative of the

22     Secretary-General.  If you can just explain to us what this is about.

23        A.   It's, again, an internal meeting with the SRSG, the deputy force

24     commander, the NATO liaison officer, the chief of staff, John Almstrom,

25     Jack Greenberg, Emma Shitaka.  "Fred" was probably Fred Eckhart from the

Page 13534

 1     spokesman's office, and myself.  And the SRSG starts off by saying:

 2             "Albright," that is to say, Madeleine Albright, who at the time,

 3     I guess, would have -- I don't know if she was the -- still the

 4     ambassador to the UN or the secretary of state, probably the ambassador

 5     to the UN of the United States:

 6             "Albright was upset at our intention to strike the

 7     Bosnian Government.  We never had such an intention.  We were prepared

 8     to, if necessary, violations, but we don't equate the actions of the

 9     sides."

10        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right when I read this "Albright upset"?

11        A.   Yes, "Albright upset."

12        Q.   "Over" or what?

13        A.   "At our --" that's my symbol for "@," like the e-mail address:

14             "Albright upset @ our intention to strike Bosnian Government

15     military forces."

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we now please see page 41.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Would you need the previous page in order to identify the

20     meeting?

21             Can we please have a look at page 40 so that Mr. Banbury could

22     see what this is all about, because this is the continuation of what

23     precedes.

24             Can you just tell us what meeting this was?

25        A.   I think this picks up still in the middle of the meeting.  And

Page 13535

 1     that's not the first page of the notes from that meeting, I don't

 2     believe, so I'm not sure which meeting it is.

 3        Q.   Were there several meetings held on the 27th of May or was this

 4     the only one?

 5        A.   I don't know, off-hand.  There quite possibly were several.

 6     Again, I would need to -- to flip through.  There it is, that's the

 7     beginning of the meeting there.

 8             Okay, 27 May, 8.30 in the morning.  The SRSG is meeting with the

 9     SRSG, the force commander, the deputy force commander, the chief of

10     staff, the NATO liaison officer, John Almstrom, Jack Greenberg, a Dutch

11     colonel, probably from the chief of staff's office, the force commander's

12     aid, and myself.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you still need this introduction, the opening

14     words of the SRSG?

15        A.   I don't need it, no.  If you'd like me to --

16        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, please, just the first statement of the SRSG.

17     This is Mr. Akashi, isn't it?

18        A.   Yes, that's correct, this is Mr. Akashi, and he's saying that the

19     Secretary-General went to the Security Council and had also spoken to

20     President Chirac:

21             "The French are anxious that better measures need to be put in

22     place to protect UN personnel.  These measures should be taken.  Possibly

23     including concentrating our troops," in other words not having them so

24     dispersed, "and that we should perhaps focus on our mandate and take more

25     energetic measures.  Withdraw of UNPROFOR, if possible, but only if the

Page 13536

 1     situation becomes impossible --" "or only if the above," I'm sorry, "only

 2     if the above becomes impossible."; in other words, these measures I just

 3     mentioned.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we now please see page 41.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Please, the force commander, "FC" stands for "Force Commander";

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   May I ask you to explain for us the first sentence -- the first

11     and second sentences, rather?

12        A.   The force commander is saying:

13             "The fundamental problem of weapons collection points was they

14     were set up in a case of urgency.  The use of the weapons - under what

15     circumstances - was never defined.  The concept of demilitarisation never

16     took hold.  The progressive erosion of the exclusion zone, the use of

17     weapons," i.e., heavy weapons, "has led us to where we are now.  Soldiers

18     are hostages and shields against air-strikes."

19        Q.   Thank you.  That reflects accurately what was said; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can we now, please, have a look at page 47.

23             THE WITNESS:  Just to be precise, that reflects accurately the

24     sense of what was said.  It's not necessarily verbatim, but it's

25     certainly the essence of what the force commander said or others say

Page 13537

 1     here.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   And does that concern only this note or all of the notes?

 4        A.   All of the notes.  It was impossible to take absolute verbatim

 5     notes.  I tried as best as possible to reflect what was said.  Where

 6     there were very important statements, I tried to put even quote marks

 7     around them.  So the notes reflect very accurately what was said, but

 8     it's not a verbatim record.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please explain for us what the SRSG was

10     saying, and the first sentence of the force commander's response:

11             "Are talks continuing ...," and so on and so on?

12        A.   The SRSG said:

13             "Are talks continuing on the exchange of prisoners between us and

14     the Bosnian Serb Army."

15             The force commander said they -- the talks are interrupted now

16     and that he would talk to the SRSG later.

17        Q.   Thank you.  That also reflects what was being said; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Could we please have a look at page 61 now, and can we please

21     zoom in on the upper part of the page.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you know what was happening on the 2nd of June, when you

24     attended?

25        A.   I know that this was a very difficult time for UNPROFOR,

Page 13538

 1     following the strikes at the end of May and the response by the

 2     Bosnian Serb military against us, the hostage-taking, the shelling in

 3     Tuzla and other places.  So I know that this was a very difficult time.

 4     I don't recall precisely what was happening on June 2nd.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Could we see the previous page as well so that Mr. Banbury might

 7     identify this specific meeting and the participants.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Would this be of help?

10        A.   This is the regular morning briefing of the SRSG.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we now please see the following page, that is, page 61.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you help us?  "Gen," is it some general who is speaking?

15        A.   No, this -- this is referring to General Divjak, but the

16     identification of the speaker here would be on the previous page.  This

17     is a continuation, probably, of what I was writing.

18        Q.   "Fred," does that help you, "Fred"?

19        A.   Yes, it does, thank you.  "Fred" would refer to Fred Eckhart from

20     the spokesman's office.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the previous

22     page once again, the bottom half, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is it Fred who's speaking?

25        A.   Correct, Fred Eckhart.

Page 13539

 1        Q.   Is it correct that Fred Eckhart says that:

 2             "In an interview for the BBC, I called these prisoners war

 3     prisoners.  Karadzic holds them to be prisoners of war"?

 4        A.   Yes.  According to what Fred told the meeting, that you had given

 5     an interview to the BBC, where you threatened retaliation against the

 6     UNPROFOR military personnel that we referred to as hostages.  But in that

 7     interview, you referred to them as prisoners of war.

 8        Q.   Did you see that interview?

 9        A.   Not according to my recollection.  It's possible, but I don't

10     recall.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can we have the next page, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you tell us what it is that Fred Eckhart is saying,

15     reporting?

16        A.   Mr. Eckhart says that:

17             "General Divjak said that the NATO target was very well chosen,

18     one of the most heavily fortified military targets in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

19     Destruction of the ammunition stocks has already had an impact on the

20     Bosnian Serb Army attacks on Sarajevo.  The Bosnian Serbs will need 15 to

21     30 days to replenish the stocks from Serbia."

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is this General Jovan Divjak the general from the

23     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina who said this about targets?

24        A.   Yes, that would have been the same General Divjak.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, pages 29, 30, 40, 41, 47

Page 13540

 1     and 61, I would like to tender them, please.  If it would be helpful,

 2     then perhaps page 60 would also be acceptable because the speaker is

 3     identified in that way.  I think one of them has already been exhibited

 4     by the Prosecution, but I don't know which one.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Just on that, Your Honours, especially given that

 7     Mr. Banbury has noted that these are excerpts from meetings and he has

 8     difficulty sometimes putting them in context without looking at the

 9     speakers who are on previous pages and other such things, I actually

10     think, rather than excerpts and separate pages, it would be of greater

11     use to everyone to have the notes from those days.  Mr. Banbury has

12     already indicated that it was an intense time, it was a difficult time,

13     and there were often several meetings during the course of those days.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Were excerpts which relate to the whole meeting,

15     that specific meeting?

16             MS. EDGERTON:  At a minimum, yeah.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I think that's fair enough.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we have no objection to that, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  But there are some parts you are not going to

20     tender, even if we saw some part of it?  For example, page 33, referring

21     to Madam Albright, you're not tendering that page?  I want to make it

22     clear.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, certainly, certainly.

24     However, 29, 33, 41, 47 and 61 -- possibly 60, and 61, unless we opt for

25     the entire meeting or the sentences just before the meeting started.  We

Page 13541

 1     don't oppose that.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit those pages related to those

 3     five specific meetings.  We'll give the number.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It's Exhibit D1176, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             You concluded your cross-examination?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since I have been confined to this

 8     topic, I have finished.

 9             Thank you, Mr. Banbury.  Thank you, Excellencies, for this

10     additional time.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, reviewing the materials from

14     yesterday and listening to today, I can indicate I have no

15     re-examination.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Banbury, that concludes your evidence.  On

18     behalf of the Tribunal and the Bench, I would like to thank you for

19     coming to The Hague and staying with us for a long time to give it.  Now

20     you are free to go.

21             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Please have a safe journey back home.

23             THE WITNESS:  Thank you, sir.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 13542

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 2             I'll need a longer-than-normal interruption between two witnesses

 3     to both log on and log off and assemble quite a number of materials, so

 4     I'd ask for a break for that purpose.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  How longer than normal?  Ten minutes would be --

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I think so.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll break for 10 minutes.

 8                           --- Break taken at 9.37 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 9.49 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Welcome, Mr. Hayden.

11             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

13             I indicated a bit earlier that I would be seeking to facilitate

14     the process today, and I wanted to advise the Court, generally in

15     accordance with the practice we've followed up to now with the witness,

16     that I would be moving more quickly in the course of this remaining

17     examination to the use of pointed or leading questions, and I wanted to

18     let the Court know that.  This is, in our submission, appropriate for any

19     number of reasons.

20             First, generically, the jurisprudence of this institution, the

21     jurisprudence of adversarial systems, recognise that there are categories

22     of witnesses for whom the use of such techniques of examination are

23     appropriate.  Indeed, there's a rule of evidence in the United States,

24     but I believe it's reflected in other jurisdictions in other forms, that

25     provides that when a witness is identified with an adverse party,

Page 13543

 1     interrogation may be by leading questions.  That's a reflection of two

 2     things, as the cases note; number 1, the fact that the Prosecution

 3     obviously takes witnesses where it finds them, and in any number of

 4     instances they will be witnesses who are -- who may be accomplices,

 5     co-conspirators, or otherwise persons who have a reason to provide

 6     evidence that is -- or to slant testimony in a manner -- in a particular

 7     manner.  And, again, that's reflected in our jurisprudence as well,

 8     providing wide latitude under circumstances for efficient examination,

 9     and a reflection of the fact that under such circumstances, there is no

10     risk of the concern that underlies leading questions, and that is that a

11     party will simply agree to a proposition presented to him or her by an

12     advocate with whom he or she identifies.

13             But beyond that, of course, we have the example of this

14     particular witness's testimony thus far.  And, indeed, I suspect that the

15     Chamber may think the use of more focused questions is long overdue, as

16     reflected by some of the questions asked by the Bench at the end of the

17     session when we adjourned.

18             The witness has engaged in long, digressive responses that moved

19     away from the focus of the question and the point of the question, often

20     volunteering information; thought that he clearly considered to be in

21     support of positions he wanted to advance.  He actually mentioned that

22     he'd come here to prove certain things.

23             And perhaps most of the point -- the first two matters I want to

24     raise involve areas where this particular witness has levelled a kind of

25     attack on what the Prosecution said or what his position was in previous

Page 13544

 1     instances.  Even colloquially, we have a situation where we have a

 2     hostile witness.  I think -- and I think it would be, clearly,

 3     inappropriate to ask -- to treat this witness as if he is a normal,

 4     co-operative witness in the context where he's actually raised

 5     allegations that need to be addressed in that particular manner.

 6             For what it's worth, I mentioned this to Mr. Robinson as well.  I

 7     don't think he has any particular objection to the use of such questions

 8     and maximising the use of our time in the remaining period we have.

 9             But, as I say, because I indicated at the outset I would attempt

10     to move progressively through this process, and did so, that is, first

11     posing open-ended questions to the witness and then focusing more

12     carefully, I think we've reached a point now where we can move more

13     expeditiously through this examination.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to respond, Mr. Robinson?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

16             We don't have any objection, and we think that the Chamber has to

17     make that determination under paragraph 26 of the Popovic decision.  And

18     we think that the Prosecutor, having now made the application -- or even

19     having made the application earlier to the Chamber that sat last week,

20     and was indicated that he would be allowed to ask leading questions,

21     I think these are the kind of circumstances which actually the Rule is

22     designed for, so I don't have any objection to his doing that.

23             I would note that your instinct to have this witness testify

24     viva voce, as opposed to adopting wholesale the Krajisnik testimony, has

25     proven to be a good one, since he's disowned some of his Krajisnik

Page 13545

 1     testimony.

 2             Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's bring in the witness.

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           WITNESS:  NEDJELJKO PRSTOJEVIC [Resumed]

 6                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Prstojevic.  How are you, sir?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  Thank you, I'm well.

 9     Thank you for asking.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12                           Examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Prstojevic.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I want to take you back to where the examination

16     was when we temporarily concluded your testimony on Friday, the 11th.

17     And at that time, the focus of the examination was on P1492, an

18     intercepted telephone conversation dated the 14th of June, 1992, during

19     which, among other things, we see in the intercept the quote from you:

20             "Well, what shall we do?  Would it be good if we gave it a

21     thought and if we organised people from a side outside to expel them all?

22     Nobody needs to be shot or killed.  Everybody expelled."

23             And your interlocutor says:

24             "That would be the right move."

25             There's further discussion about that, but the question was then

Page 13546

 1     asked:

 2             "When you refer to organising people from outside to expel them

 3     all, who did you have in mind?"

 4             You provided -- or started to provide what was a fairly long

 5     answer about when the conversation was taking place, what neighbourhood

 6     you're from, how well or sparsely populated the neighbourhood was,

 7     et cetera.  The Judge -- the Presiding Judge then said:

 8             "Witness, do you have a short -- or affirmative or short answer,

 9     in any event, to Mr. Tieger's question?  Regardless of the surrounding

10     circumstances, who did you mean by people from outside?"

11             You said:

12             "It is well known who these people are in the situation."

13             Et cetera.  Then you went on to say:

14             "The MUP and the military police come out, run out, and they

15     arrest all those who are military age ..."

16             Et cetera.  The Judge then asked:

17             "Are you then saying in your answer that what you meant was that

18     the MUP and the military police should be the people to expel them?"

19             You then talked about the MUP -- some reference to the MUP from

20     the western part and the military police, and then went on to say:

21             "These people never moved out."

22             You talked about the number of households.  And then I asked you

23     about something you had said before, directing your attention to an

24     interview you had in 2005 concerning this very intercepted conversation,

25     indicating that at page 41, you were asked:

Page 13547

 1             "When you say 'bring people from outside,' who are you thinking

 2     of?  And your answer was:

 3             "For example, I think about the group of Arkan's, group of Boban,

 4     Brne's group, who is from Pale, any unit from outside."

 5             And I ask you:

 6             "That's what you said, isn't it, Mr. Prstojevic, and that's what

 7     you meant by 'people from outside?'"

 8             And your answer was:

 9             "That is not correct, I did not say that.  You are totally

10     diluted, Mr. Tieger."

11             I take it you recall that exchange we had, Mr. Prstojevic.  Is

12     that right?  Just yes or no, because I want to show you something in

13     response to that.

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   Well, then, let me actually -- that interview, in fact, was

16     recorded on videotape.  That's 65 ter 22231.

17             And for the benefit of the interpreters, we'll be looking at

18     page 41 through page 42.  I'm sorry, 65 ter 40243.

19             First of all, Mr. Prstojevic, you recognise the people shown on

20     screen now?  This is a portion of 65 ter 40243, with the time code

21     indicating -- well, this time code is just the very beginning of this

22     clip.  So that's -- and we'll mark it as we go through.  You recognise

23     yourself in there, Mr. Prstojevic, as well as people attending the

24     interview?

25        A.   Oh, please.  I do recognise myself, and I do not recognise anyone

Page 13548

 1     else here.

 2             Secondly, during your introductory remarks, you said many words

 3     that were untrue, and you provided a lot of untrue information.

 4             Thirdly, if this is an interview from 2003, could you start a bit

 5     earlier, and then you will see that you got it wrong, in terms of what

 6     I'm providing as an answer, who I meant.  At one moment just before that

 7     sentence, the topic of the conversation changes.  I think that there is

 8     some Stjepan involved.  He moves on to a completely different topic, and

 9     he asks me about paramilitary --

10        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, we're going to play this right now.  And the

11     previous references, the Court will be able to check the transcript of

12     these proceedings concerning the accuracy of what I said regarding what

13     happened on Friday, March 11th.  But let's look at this interview right

14     now.  And please recall that I asked you if you had said that.

15             So let's -- first of all, let's play this first portion to make

16     sure we're agreed that we're talking about the same intercept, P1492.  If

17     we could just begin, please.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             "This is intercept bears the numbers 0401-3878, 0401-3882, and is

20     an intercept that was recorded on the 14th of June, 1992."

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

22        Q.   And, Mr. Prstojevic, this 14th of June intercept, P1492, bears

23     the ERN numbers 0401-3878, so I take it we can agree this discussion was

24     about the intercepted telephone conversation during which you are

25     recorded as talking about organising people from outside to expel them

Page 13549

 1     all.  That's the same conversation that's at issue here; right?

 2        A.   Yes, that is that conversation.  However, you are abusing this,

 3     you and your investigators.  I did not say that they should be expelled.

 4     I said that they should move out.  That is a completely different term,

 5     in relation to "expel."  And that can be heard very well during the

 6     course of that speech.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Prstojevic, whether it should be interpreted to

 8     move out or to expel, that's a separate matter we can take care of later

 9     on, but let's concentrate on the questions put by Mr. Tieger at this

10     time.

11             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

12             And if we could move now to -- let me show Mr. Reid.

13             Let's see if we're in the relevant section now.  If we can start

14     to play.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             "How many did he kill?"

17             "I don't know what was I thinking, but, in essence, we did not

18     bring people from outside and we did not plan to do that."

19             "How many what?"

20             "It's okay.  Just, when you say 'bring people from outside,' who

21     are you thinking of?

22             THE INTERPRETER:  [Voiceover] "For example, I think about the

23     group of Arkan's, group of Boban, Brne's group, who is from Pale, any

24     unit from outside.

25             "Group of Boban, Brne's group, who is from Pale, any unit from

Page 13550

 1     outside."

 2             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Because we defended ourselves on

 3     the basis of our own forces, from local forces."

 4             "On the basis of our own forces which is -- forces made of local

 5     people and people who were refugees in our territory."

 6             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "But I did not hear the word

 7     'expel.'  It's not in accordance with -- it's not in accordance with my

 8     principles."

 9             "Well, it's not in accordance with my principles, with the way I

10     think.  However, I do not want to exclude that possibility.  But it's not

11     in accordance with my principles."

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, as I follow the words spoken by the interpreter,

14     the transcript on screen, and the transcript of the question I asked you

15     on Friday, they seem to be identical.  So do you now acknowledge that

16     that -- that you were asked in 2005, when you say, Bring people from

17     outside, who are you thinking of, and you said, for example:

18             "I think about the group of Arkan's, the group of Boban, Brne's

19     group, who is from Pale, any group from outside"?

20        A.   I do not accept that.  Play this back.  Listen to everything I

21     said.  And Stjepan Margans [phoen], I have that here translated into

22     Serbian, and Your Honours will understand everything, that we changed the

23     subject.  From the telephone conversation, we moved on to discussing

24     these groups that came from elsewhere, and for two pages we are

25     discussing these groups.  We are not discussing my telephone conversation

Page 13551

 1     with the man from Kasindol, from the Civilian Protection there.  Please,

 2     let us go back to Margan's question and then my answer, and you will you

 3     see that the subject had been changed.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Well, Your Honour, let me expedite this by

 5     tendering - I take it there will be no objection - the entirety of the

 6     passage dealing with this.  That covers approximately -- it's actually

 7     from 17:41 to 29:28 of this 65 ter number, and, of course, I tender it.

 8     It will be available to the Court to read -- to listen to and to consider

 9     in its entirety.

10             JUDGE KWON:  You have a transcript for that?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we now heard that the fact

14     that this video-clip has been cut up changes the meaning.  Why are we

15     just taking the part that was challenged by the witness, and he claims

16     that the meaning was changed in this way?

17             JUDGE KWON:  It is for the Chamber to determine later on.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Exactly, and I'm not -- I'm tendering the entirety

19     of the discussion concerning this intercept.  And if anyone identifies a

20     further portion, I'll be happy to tender that as well.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's admitted.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2512, Your Honours.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Now, Mr. Prstojevic, in connection with the discussion that took

Page 13552

 1     place regarding your speech at the 17th Assembly session, that is, the

 2     Assembly session that --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Did you move from that intercept of the 14th of

 4     June?

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.  That's already in evidence as

 6     P1492.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I haven't checked.  It's still in the status of

 8     MFI'd?

 9             Mr. Prstojevic, did you confirm that that is your voice?  Have

10     you done that?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did confirm that.  However, I

12     have the original translation into Serbian here.  The subject changed.

13     As a matter of fact, we did hear this conversation.  There's a point

14     where I say that we did not bring people from elsewhere.  In general

15     terms, we did not, and that was heard.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I was dealing with the intercept, itself.  You

17     confirm that that was your voice?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So we can admit it in its entirety, without having

20     to mark it for identification.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Let us move.

23             MR. TIEGER:

24        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I was turning our attention to the 17th Assembly

25     session and your remarks during the course of that session, which was

Page 13553

 1     held in July of 1992, I think specifically July -- toward the end of

 2     July, July 24th through 26th of 1992.  And among -- there was discussion

 3     about what was said and what was not said in connection with that.  And

 4     among the things you said at this time, at transcript pages 129240, was:

 5             "Mr. Tieger gave himself the right to say that it's

 6     one-and-the-same word, 'protjerali' and 'potisli,' that these two words

 7     mean the same thing in the Serbian language, which is completely

 8     incorrect.  It is like the sky and the earth."

 9             And I'd like to address your assertion, Mr. Prstojevic, that the

10     Prosecution asserted, in the course of the Krajisnik case, that the word

11     "protjerali" and the word "potisli" mean the same thing and thereby

12     misled the Chamber.

13             Now, first of all, let me direct your attention generally to some

14     matters that occurred during the Krajisnik case.  And I'll note a number

15     of these and ask if you recall them or can confirm them or not.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  The transcript pages that you

17     referred to is a transcript of what?

18             MR. TIEGER:  In these proceedings, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the number again?

20             MR. TIEGER:  I have it down as -- I think I have one too many --

21     I think that would be 12924, but I'd have to double-check that.

22             JUDGE KWON:  There was an unnecessary "0" at the end.  Yes, let's

23     move on.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, is the following correct, that during the course

Page 13554

 1     of the Krajisnik case:  For example, at page 14676, you looked at the

 2     transcript and read the word as "potjerali," and indeed said that more

 3     than once; that at page 14676, the Court read the word as "potjerali," as

 4     did the booth some seven pages later; the booth confirmed that the word

 5     meant "chase away," not "push back"; that confirmation was necessary

 6     because you, in reading the transcript, had substituted the word

 7     "potisnuli," a variation of "potisli," when you were reading the text?

 8     You were later asked about that, and you said, well, the document says

 9     "potjerali," and I'm referring to page 14676, but that you would not use

10     that word and you considered "potisnuli" an adequate term to substitute.

11     And, finally, rather than asserting that the two words were the same, it

12     was the Prosecution who pointed out that the two words were different,

13     and that you had used the word "potisnuli" instead of the word

14     "potjerali"?  Isn't -- and that was at page 14681.  Isn't that all

15     correction, Mr. Prstojevic?

16        A.   I don't know what's correct.  I could see from the previous part

17     that you are proving things that are incorrect.  And even here the word

18     "pushed back" has to do with pushing back enemy units at the front

19     backwards.  And "expelling" is another word that refers to civilian

20     population.  And "potjerali," "chase away," it has to do with driving

21     cattle, for example.  "Potjecali," it has to do with chemical reactions.

22     In documents, I can find four words, and I could only have used --

23     knowing how I speak and the manner of speaking, I could only have said

24     "potisnuli," that is to say, "pushed back," and it had to do with enemy

25     military units.  And I said that this was in connection with Dobrinja.

Page 13555

 1             MR. TIEGER:  And you've raised -- by the way -- and, Your Honour,

 2     I'm going to move, to short-circuit this, by tendering the relevant pages

 3     of the Krajisnik testimony so the Court can see for itself exactly what

 4     was said and at that time.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And those would be -- that should start at

 7     page 14662 and conclude at 14681, but I will double-check to make sure we

 8     have the entirety of that.  And, obviously, the Defence is free to

 9     indicate if there are any pages concerning that discussion that were not

10     contained in that range.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit it.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2513, Your Honours.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   And, Mr. Prstojevic, you also mentioned the word "potjecali," and

15     I take it you consider that that's not -- you said it has to do with

16     chemical reactions.  I take it you consider that that is not a word that

17     was used at the time, and if you see it in a document, it must be a typo

18     or a mistake; is that it?

19        A.   No.  The document which I have here in front of me precisely

20     includes the word "potjecali."  It cannot be a typo, because the

21     formulation is different and the way you type this is different.  It says

22     here "potjecati."

23        Q.   And isn't it correct that "potjecati" means "originate"?  Now, I

24     don't know how you get that translation back, but when I use the word

25     "originate," it means -- I'll try to find a synonym -- which means "to

Page 13556

 1     begin from," for example.  I'm trying to avoid a situation where we

 2     simply get translated back the same word that we're talking about.

 3        A.   Yes, you are right, it's to originate, to encourage it, means the

 4     origin, what something comes from, but also, in chemistry, to encourage

 5     something, to cause, to bring about a chemical reaction.  If you use a

 6     catalyst, then you help the chemical reaction to develop.

 7        Q.   And is it also -- and that's in its -- as I understand it, in its

 8     grammatically correct form.  Is it also the case that in a grammatically

 9     incorrect form, but, nevertheless, sometimes used, "potjecati" can also

10     mean either "chase away" or "encourage"?

11        A.   No, it doesn't mean that.

12             MR. TIEGER:  And, again, the Court is going to have the benefit

13     of the transcript, and it has the benefit of being able to turn to highly

14     sophisticated translation and interpretation resources to address any

15     concerns about the meaning of particular words.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, do you, by any chance, have before you

17     the Krajisnik transcript page 14681?

18             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE KWON:  The first full submission of yours there contains

20     some three B/C/S words.  Are they correctly spelled?  Are they the same

21     words we discussed today?

22             MR. TIEGER:  Well, they should be.

23             JUDGE KWON:  "Potjerali."

24             MR. TIEGER:  There are a number of words discussed, Your Honour,

25     and let me see if I can answer the Court's question in this fashion:  To

Page 13557

 1     the extent possible -- excuse me.  I referred to the use of particular

 2     words during the Krajisnik case.  So when you see, on page 14681, those

 3     three words, "potjerali," "protjerali," and "potisli," those are words

 4     that were mentioned during the course of the Krajisnik testimony by this

 5     witness.  And I think the Court will find references to them.  I can

 6     actually provide certain references right now.  They will be contained in

 7     the pages of the transcript that we submitted.  The word --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Today, you used a different word?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  And that was a word that was used by this witness

10     during the course of this testimony, but was not -- I don't believe was

11     raised, although the record will indicate one way or another, during the

12     course of the Krajisnik testimony.  In any event, it was not the focus of

13     that discussion, as the Court should be able to see from the transcript.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Is there a way for the court reporters to have the

15     exact correct spelling of the words you used today?

16             MR. TIEGER:  I think the best thing to do -- I mean, we can

17     provide that, Your Honour, although I can indicate there are potentially

18     dialectic and grammatical differences, I think -- and I'll give that some

19     thought, but I think the words will be -- at least the words used during

20     the course of the Krajisnik case will be clear in context because they

21     are mentioned several times.  They're mentioned, as I indicated -- the

22     word "potjerali," which has been mentioned here, was mentioned by the

23     witness more than once.  You can find that on page 14676 and other

24     portions.  It's mentioned by the Court also at that same page.  The booth

25     reads the transcript, and you'll see that same word again at 14673

Page 13558

 1     through 74.  And I can find further reference, if necessary, but it will

 2     be present there.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Of course, we can find the words that were used in

 4     the Krajisnik trial, but what I was concerned about was the words that

 5     were used by you being different from the Krajisnik transcript, whether

 6     we can get it right or not.  Could you let us know, in brief terms, what

 7     different terms you have used today, other than these three ones?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             The only additional term that I used came from this witness's

10     testimony in this case earlier.

11             JUDGE KWON:  How do you spell it?

12             MR. TIEGER:  And that was the word "projecali," and that

13     difference is, as I understand it -- and, again, I'm relying on what

14     appears in the transcript, what was said in court, and what I can glean

15     from extensive discussions with interpreters.  The word "potjerali" is

16     spelled p-r-o-t-j-e-r-a-l-i [sic], and "protjecali" is a word which is

17     p-r-o-t-j-e-c-a-l-i, so you have a C instead of the R.  At least that's

18     the way I've been using it, and that's the way I understood the

19     distinction that was drawn by the witness, which is why, because he

20     referenced it here, which is why I brought his attention to it and asked

21     him a few questions about it and brought it to the attention of the

22     Court.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I notice the time.  It's time to take a break.

24             We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at 11.00.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

Page 13559

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.04 a.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, I have information from the Chamber's

 3     staff, who understand B/C/S, to the effect that the word spelled in the

 4     Krajisnik transcript as "potisjili," p-o-t-i-s-j-i-l-i, is misspelled and

 5     should be spelled as "potisnuli," p-o-t-i-s-n-u-l-i, which is one of the

 6     words the witness used today.  And so all these should be checked again,

 7     and probably the Chamber will be benefitted having a submission or the

 8     submission from the CLSS, having --

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I certainly understand, Your Honour, and agree.

10     I think the reference -- if I recall correctly, that both the word

11     "potjecali" and "potisnuli" were separately used, perhaps one

12     incorrectly in the -- or appear in the Krajisnik transcript, but I

13     certainly understand the Court's concern and fully agree with the need to

14     be as accurate as possible, and we'll review all the transcript for that

15     purpose.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Probably, the best way to deal with this is to have

17     a submission from you, and that can be checked against by the Defence as

18     well as by the CLSS.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Certainly, I think that sounds like a very sensible

20     expedient.

21             And in that regard, I was going to note that I took a last

22     portion of the transcript, when the Court asked about the additional word

23     used.  I correctly indicated earlier, I think, that it was "potjecali,"

24     beginning with p-o-t, but then I proceeded to spell it, I spelled it as

25     p-r-o, rather than p-o-r, which is how it was intended to be, and that

Page 13560

 1     underscores the need, I think, to review for that purpose.  In other

 2     words, not to go back to it, the witness in the Krajisnik case made a

 3     distinction between "potjerali," which is defined as "chased away," and

 4     "protjerali," which means "expel," and then in this case referred earlier

 5     to the word "potjecali," which was the subject of some discussion today

 6     as meaning "originate" and some other possible meanings.  And when I

 7     tried to spell it at the end of the last session, it should have been as

 8     p-o-t, not p-r -- excuse me, p-o-r -- we're doing it again.  Anyway,

 9     "potjecali" and "potjerali," were the two words that I was referring to

10     there.

11             But, again, I'll take your comments very much on board, and we'll

12     be going through it and working with the Defence in that regard.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's move on.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I wanted to turn next to P -- another intercepted

15     telephone conversation, this one dated 25 June 1992.  That's P1515.

16        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I believe you'll recognise this as a conversation

17     which you had the opportunity to hear most recently during this visit to

18     The Hague; specifically, on the 2nd of March of this year, and it's a

19     conversation between you and Rade Ristic.

20             At the beginning of the conversation, Ristic is on the phone,

21     seeking to speak to you.  You ask about the situation.  Ristic says:

22             "It's so -- not bad, but not either."

23             You ask whether what was taken is now being kept.  Ristic says:

24             "Well, about that one thing, they are not going any further, fuck

25     it."

Page 13561

 1             And you say:

 2             "All right.  But have them hold on to it tightly, and have them

 3     all killed there, please."

 4             Ristic says:  "Yes."

 5             You say:

 6             "All that is Muslim is to be killed, like Alija ..."

 7             Ristic says:  "Yes."

 8             Then turning to the next page in the English, you say:

 9             "I don't want to see one military-aged Muslim alive there."

10             Ristic says:  "Aha."

11             And then you say:

12             "Secondly, immediately, I give you the authorisation to give

13     Muslim apartments to Serbs there."

14             Ristic says:  "Where?"

15             You say:

16             "Well, there, in that part of Dobrinja."

17             Mr. Prstojevic, can you confirm that you listened to this

18     intercept, as I say, most recently, if not before, on the 2nd of March,

19     and confirm that this was your voice in the conversation?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the discussion between you and Mr. Ristic is about a portion

22     of Sarajevo that has already been taken by the Bosnian Serbs, right, and

23     that you want to ensure is held on to?

24        A.   Please, this is a conversation between myself and

25     Mr. Rade Ristic, who is involved in civilian affairs of the Gojkovic

Page 13562

 1     local community or the area of the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade.  I'm speaking

 2     with a civilian, who is not a commander of any sort and who was

 3     practically dealing with security, and I am being informed -- this is

 4     during the June Muslim offensive that lasted for 50 days.  We managed to

 5     repel it, and we took Dobrinja I and Dobrinja IV under our control.

 6     Everything that is said here refers to that part, and this --

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I tender P1515 not for MFI any longer.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  My record shows that it's fully admitted already.

 9                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

10             JUDGE KWON:  The 4th of February.

11             MR. TIEGER:  That's what I had indicated as well, but in light of

12     the previous discussion -- yeah, that's fine.  Thank you.

13             If we could turn next to 65 ter 31709.

14        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I think you'll recognise this as a -- this is a

15     conversation that is dated as the 10th of July, 1995, between you and

16     Mr. Tepavcevic.  It's a conversation that I believe you had an

17     opportunity to listen to when you listened to a number of intercepts in

18     2005, which was the same interview we looked at a bit earlier, and

19     I think you'll recognise that from the discussion in the transcript.

20             It begins with greetings between Tepavcevic and someone from

21     Ilidza municipality, looking for Rade Ristic, and then you come on the

22     phone.  There is greetings between you and Tepavcevic, a discussion about

23     what the soldiers are doing, and whether everything is all right.

24     Further discussion continues about what activities are underway, what has

25     not been happening, as we see in the second page of the English and the

Page 13563

 1     second page of the B/C/S:

 2             "Nothing in the last two or three days."

 3             And if we turn to the third page of the English, the conversation

 4     continues about -- first it begins that:

 5             "They," presumably there had been reference to the Turks, "are

 6     probably up to something.  They attacked an unprotected zone in Sarajevo.

 7     When we attacked them, then everybody is --"

 8             Tepavcevic says:  "Yes, we've heard all that."

 9             You say:  "Whining."

10             He says:  "Yes."

11             You say:  "They whine as loud as they can."

12             Tepavcevic:  "That's what they always do."

13             You say:  "Yes, yes."

14             Tepavcevic says:  "May they whine their entire lives."

15             You say:  "When they disappear, they won't whine anymore."

16             And Tepavcevic says:  "With God's help."

17             First of all, Mr. Prstojevic, by looking at the transcript, can

18     you confirm this is a conversation you've had a chance to listen to

19     before and that you recognised your voices, a participant in that

20     discussion?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And when you refer to the -- first of all, when you refer to

23     "they disappearing," are you referring to those you called Turks in the

24     earlier part of the intercept?

25        A.   No, this is not correct.  Here, I am speaking during the June

Page 13564

 1     offensive in 1995 aimed at the east part of the Serbian municipality of

 2     Ilidza, with a person from the Civilian Protection who is unfit for

 3     service and did not serve his military term of duty.  The entire

 4     conversation has to do with civilian defence and what they did, and we

 5     were just joking, the two of us.  And you can see from the conversation

 6     that they did certain -- put up certain protections in the neighbourhood

 7     where there was Muslim sniper activity at the civilian population.  They

 8     were helping the Serbian soldiers to order certain defensive lines, and I

 9     was simply joking with this person who wasn't being asked for anything in

10     that local commune, but was heading the civilian defence.  And I,

11     incidentally, informed him that in the western sector, the Muslim

12     offensive had not succeeded.  We had beaten them.  This offensive took 45

13     days at Serbian Sarajevo and at some parts of Treskavica and Trnovo.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I would tender for admission

15     65 ter 31709.

16             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2514, Your Honours.

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, during the course of some questions about the

20     17th Assembly session, there was a discussion about Sarajevo and the

21     division of Sarajevo; that is, raised some questions in connection with

22     that, and you said that when you were speaking in July of 1992, you

23     weren't thinking about the strategic objectives then.  I think you said

24     that at 13247.  When do you say, if at all, you found out that Sarajevo

25     was part of the strategic objectives and that there was an effort

Page 13565

 1     underway for the division of Sarajevo?

 2        A.   I said on a number of occasions that I found out about the

 3     strategic objectives when they were published in the "Official Gazette"

 4     of Republika Srpska and when we received them.  Until then, everything

 5     that we did was on our own initiative, and we did it on the basis of

 6     self-organising in order to defend our ethnic territories.

 7        Q.   And did you periodically hear references, particularly references

 8     by the Bosnian Serb leadership -- let me step back for a second.

 9             Did you understand that the division of Sarajevo meant the

10     division of Sarajevo into two cities?

11        A.   Absolutely this was our desire, the wish of the Serbian

12     population in Sarajevo, and this is what we wanted, ultimately.  We

13     constantly asked our leadership to provide guarantees to us that this

14     area would not be handed over to the Muslims in some peace process.

15     However, as you can see, pursuant to the Dayton Accords, the main part of

16     it, 90 per cent of the urban area, was handed over, and 10 per cent

17     remained as part of Serbian Sarajevo.

18        Q.   And did you hear from members of the Bosnian Serb leadership that

19     pursuant to the strategic aims or objectives adopted by the Assembly,

20     that Sarajevo would be turned into two cities if -- based on that

21     Bosnian Serb aim?

22        A.   It was understood that I did hear of it, because citizens kept

23     constantly asking me whether Ilidza would be handed over, what would

24     happen with other parts of Serbian Sarajevo.  Then we, in turn, asked,

25     and then -- starting from ministers, or any other functionaries, up to

Page 13566

 1     President Karadzic, if we had the opportunity.  And naturally we always

 2     received assurances that everything would be done, that Serbian Sarajevo

 3     would remain, as a whole, where our ethnic area is.  However, we all know

 4     what happened later in Dayton.  Of course, I heard about it, and I did

 5     tell people that there would be a split in two.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And let me ask you to look quickly at 65 ter 45177.

 7             This is a videotape, you'll see, Mr. Prstojevic, not -- that is

 8     not in colour, of a meeting held in 1995.

 9             And if we could go quickly to approximately 1:43:30, and play

10     that, please.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MR. TIEGER:  And if we could stop quickly, please.

13        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, do you recognise yourself present and speaking at

14     that meeting, and did you hear the reference to you by the commentator?

15        A.   I do, but something is odd here.  At the time, I was wearing a

16     military uniform and boots, but probably that day I changed into my suit,

17     into civilian clothing, to be adequately or appropriately dressed at this

18     meeting.  But, yes, it is me.

19        Q.   And as the camera canvassed the group at the table, did you

20     recognise any of the persons present?

21        A.   I recognised -- perhaps you can bring back or go back a little

22     bit.  I did recognise some people, but I couldn't tell you now.  I think

23     all of the people should have been familiar to me.

24             This is Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik, the president of the Assembly.

25     And there are some people here from the municipality of Ilidza

Page 13567

 1     leadership, practically all of them; also, directors of key enterprises.

 2     I recognise the director of the Famos enterprise, the director of the

 3     Radio/Television of the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza; the director of

 4     the hospital, Zica; and some other officials from a neighbouring

 5     municipality.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  And the portion that we just looked at was 1:43.30

 7     to 1:43:53.

 8             And if we could move next to the portion of the meeting depicted

 9     at 1:55:45.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MR. TIEGER:  If we could commence again at the beginning of

12     Mr. Karadzic's talk, and if the interpreters could translate.  I think

13     they have a transcript available to them.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We are determined -- strategic aims

16     which our Assembly adopted, to get separated, and we have separated and

17     formed our state.  But some changes have to happen in very Sarajevo in a

18     way that Serbian areas go to Serbs in its entirety, by means of political

19     negotiations and talks, in the way that Serbian city will be formed and

20     separated, as a whole, in the way that the former Sarajevo is transformed

21     into two cities.  It is our firm political will and decision, and if our

22     neighbours and the international community as well wish to peacefully

23     solve this problem, then they have to realise that genuine Serbian areas

24     in the territory of Sarajevo have to go to Serbs and a city will be

25     formed there which should have -- be a shelter and home for about 200.000

Page 13568

 1     Serbs, and continually developing on an urban principle and on

 2     centre-towards-periphery principle."

 3             Could all extra microphones be turned off, please.

 4             [Voiceover] "We have a completely clear vision about it, and we

 5     will -- try to make it true.  We have entirely accepted and welcomed your

 6     regulation in the declaration so that the rest of Sarajevo can stay in

 7     Republika Srpska if it wants to, as there are economic and historical,

 8     national and all other conditions and reasons.  And if not, then we will

 9     make some arrangements to enable those who do not want to live with us to

10     connect to their territory in some way.

11             "If our neighbours do not show enough understanding, we will

12     decide for ourselves how big Srpsko Sarajevo will be and what will be in

13     Srpsko Sarajevo, and then we -- Sarajevo is a city, and the city in

14     Republika Srpska, because all the land of Sarajevo is situated on Serbian

15     land and all the surroundings are Serbian.  And if they do not want to

16     come to a quick solution, the whole of Sarajevo will be Serbian in the

17     end."

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Let me understand the technical

21     situation at this moment.

22             There was no French translation, obviously.  Do you understand

23     the reason why, Mr. Tieger, you or -- just a second.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  You offered the English transcript to the

Page 13569

 1     interpreters?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct, Your Honour.

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters note that the sound quality in

 4     B/C/S was very, very bad, and we could read the transcript, but we

 5     couldn't really hear it all that well, even though the volume was turned

 6     up very high.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The French booth was not able to interpret the

 8     English translation.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  I have no explanation for that technical glitch,

10     Your Honour.  I would have thought that it would have happened.

11             JUDGE KWON:  In any event, the Bench had no problem in following

12     the English translations.  Now I understood the reason why.

13             Let's move on, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, is that one of the meetings at which the -- at

16     which local cadres were reminded by the leadership that the strategic

17     aims were called for, and that the Bosnian Serbs were pursuing the

18     division of Sarajevo into two cities?

19        A.   I'm sorry.  There were some interruptions, and occasionally I

20     could not hear parts of this speech given by Mr. President Karadzic, and

21     it was with the utmost effort that I could hear some of it.

22             And in answer to your question, I can say, yes, this was a

23     meeting, or, rather, a visit of the president of Republika Srpska,

24     Dr. Radovan Karadzic, to the Serbian municipality of Ilidza and partly to

25     the western section of Serbian Sarajevo on the Boxing Day, the second day

Page 13570

 1     of Christmas, the 8th of January, 1995, as far as I can determine, in

 2     terms of dates.  So it was at a moment when the war was already in its

 3     final stage.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 5             I tender this exhibit, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The time-frame is until 1:58:28.  Yes, that will be

 7     admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2515, Your Honours.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, and I'm just checking to see that -- make

10     sure that we've included the first portion, where we -- where

11     Mr. Prstojevic identified himself, and then he also reviewed some of the

12     people in attendance.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. TIEGER:  If we could turn next to 65 ter 31635, please.

15        Q.   65 ter 31635 is a conversation between Mr. Ristic and yourself,

16     Mr. Prstojevic, on the 16th of June, 1995, and this is a conversation

17     which you had the opportunity to listen to in 2009, when you were

18     interviewed by representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor.

19             Again, we see, at the beginning of the conversation, greetings

20     between yourself and Mr. Ristic.  Then there is a discussion about what

21     is -- questions about what is taking place.  And as we turn to page 2 of

22     the English, and toward the bottom of your page in B/C/S and moving on to

23     the next page, you say:

24             "All right.  We beat the Turks here in Nedzarici.  I don't know

25     whether I told you.  We beat them here."

Page 13571

 1             Ristic says:  "You didn't.  That's good."

 2             You say:

 3             "There was an attack over here from two sides, and they went back

 4     to Alija not very happy."

 5             Ristic says:  "Is that right?"

 6             You say:

 7             "They were beaten, without any results."

 8             And then a few lines later, you say:

 9             "We pounded them, we attacked them again, and now and then we

10     send over to them a krmaca or two."

11             And "krmaca" there, it says "krmaca," expression for modified air

12     bomb.

13             And Ristic says:

14             "You're right to do so, of course.  We need to shake them up a

15     little bit by all means.  All in all, I think that things will be okay.

16     I don't know how long you'll be there."

17             First of all, Mr. Prstojevic, can you confirm that you have an

18     opportunity to listen to this conversation, and that you confirmed that

19     this was your voice on the tape?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And when you say in the intercept:  "Now and then we send over to

22     them a krmaca," what are you referring to?  How often were "krmacas" sent

23     over, and describe what they are.

24        A.   I was having this conversation with the number-one man from the

25     local commune of Vojkovici, in the eastern section, and it was on the

Page 13572

 1     second day of the June offensive in the year 1995, when the Muslims were

 2     given a green light to launch an attack on the ethnic Serbian areas of

 3     Sarajevo with the aim of persecuting and destroying the Serbian

 4     population in these areas so that, by military force, it could be taken

 5     over, rather than handed over to them peacefully as envisaged by the

 6     Dayton Accords.  And I wanted to know how serious the attacks were in the

 7     eastern part.  And I was directly involved in combat on the 15th in the

 8     western part, because we knew the date, the hour and the minute when the

 9     enemy units would attack us along the entire front-line.

10             And directly in answer to your question, I explained this in

11     detail to your team of investigators in 2009.  The team included two

12     military analysts.  One of them was Viktor Bezruchenko, who spent the

13     entire war in the Sarajevo area and in the territory of the Serbian

14     municipality of Ilidza.  There were also two representatives of OTP.  I

15     think that there was a chief Prosecutor and also an interpreter.

16             And it's not exact that the word "krmaca" only implied modified

17     air-bombs, but also all artillery weapons from 82 millimetres, 120, 105,

18     155 millimetres, and so on.  And the word was not invented by Serbs, but

19     rather by the Muslims.  All anti-personnel weapons were called "krme" by

20     them, from the small "krme," which is 60 millimetres, that's the simplest

21     mortar shell, to the biggest one.  And also as we had 155-millimetre

22     cannon which they used from Igman, we called it "Suta."

23             And I stand by my testimony from 2009 as regards this telephone

24     conversation.

25        Q.   Well, your testimony in 2009 also embraced a discussion about

Page 13573

 1     what you had said to the investigators in 2006, and so let's look at what

 2     you're referring to when you use the word "krmaca," and how you explained

 3     that.

 4             And if we can turn to 65 ter 11562, page 15.

 5        A.   From what year is that?

 6        Q.   This is the 2006 interview.  And you were asked, at --

 7        A.   And I referred to my -- to the interview from 2009, because

 8     that's the one I remember better.

 9        Q.   No, I understand, and I'll turn your attention to that as well.

10        A.   But this one from 2006 is also not a problem.  It's not a problem

11     at all.

12        Q.   Okay.  And just so the Court can understand what was said at that

13     time:  You were asked about modified air-bombs, that is, bombs designed

14     as gravity bombs that were modified to be used as ground-launched

15     weapons, and then you began to explain.  You said:

16             "As the war went on, more hope was laid on some new weapons which

17     will improve and help the defence in this or that way."

18             Then you mention that one such weapon was a tank or an armoured

19     vehicle.  And then you continued, on page 16:

20             "Second, for a while, there were stories about 'krmace,'

21     pig-looking-like bombs which were launched in a way towards the enemy

22     units.  We were -- we did not have much access to many things, and you

23     don't ask certain things for military protection, just like I never asked

24     about the whereabouts of Karadzic or Mladic, because it would be thought

25     that a secret may be revealed, so if one would ask about the weapons,

Page 13574

 1     then the function of it may be revealed.  How those 'krmace' bombs

 2     existed, and the conversation I had with Colonel or

 3     Lieutenant-Colonel Josipovic of the Serb Sarajevo brigade commander was

 4     in most details about it, while awaiting for a meeting between the

 5     military and political structures.  Among other things, he asked us, Do

 6     you know the name of that bomb?  Some said this or that.  I didn't say

 7     anything because I've only heard of its name from soldiers or citizens,

 8     whereas he said it is called 'wherever it lands,'" that's from Josipovic

 9     in the midst of your quote, "because it was so poor in preciseness that

10     it actually threatened the crew that launched it that it could have

11     landed on the territory and VRS, and not to hit a military target and a

12     civilian one, so once it was in the air, nobody knew how and in what way

13     it would function, so the commanders knew it was extremely imprecise."

14             And then on the next page, 17, you're asked:

15             "During this conversation with Colonel Josipovic, do you recall

16     when that took place?"

17             And you said:

18             "I don't remember, but I remember it was in Vogosca, while

19     waiting for a meeting to take place, round the beginning of 1995 or so,

20     but I think that the Muslim forces were attacking Misici Plateau at the

21     time and coming closer to Vogosca.  And what I remembered about it was

22     'where it lands' was what it was named."

23             And then you refer to the 2009 interview as well.  That's

24     65 ter 22233.  And at the page marked "61" in the hard-copy English

25     transcript, but I believe at the bottom of page 81 of the e-court, you

Page 13575

 1     confirmed that again, saying:

 2             "I remember that in an informal conversation, Josipovic said,

 3     'This weapon is called "wherever it falls," "wherever it lands."'  And

 4     then the nickname 'krmaca' also applies to an air-bomb because it falls

 5     into this category of weapons that I described."

 6             Mr. Prstojevic, can you confirm that those are -- accurately

 7     captures what you said to the investigators in 2006 and 2009 regarding

 8     "krmaca"?

 9        A.   As you read this from 2006, it does not reflect at all what I

10     said during the interview, because everything is practically wrongly

11     interpreted, maliciously formulated, and the translation is incorrect,

12     and where I say the opposite thing, they interpret it differently.  So I

13     completely oppose the idea that this interview of mine from 2006 should

14     be taken as my testimony here today, because everything would have to be

15     checked.  I have that in my manuscripts.  I also have in translation, in

16     the Serbian language, what I said.  And you read it and present it to

17     this Court in such a way and it's translated in such a way that nothing

18     is practically true, except for one thing, and that is that I had heard

19     of this weapon, where I said that, and it was not connected.  It was in a

20     group.  I did not inquire.  I just heard that accidentally while I was in

21     the midst of a discussion and waiting for an official meeting.

22             And as for the interview from 2009, you intentionally left out

23     the portion where I listed all the weapons which they used to call in

24     this or that way.

25             And there are a dozen of places where the word "krmaca" is used

Page 13576

 1     where I did not use it, but it's a matter of the interpreter and the

 2     investigators and so on.

 3             Therefore, I am against taking this as my testimony at the time,

 4     even though I do accept what I said when interpreted correctly.  But I do

 5     not accept that this should be accepted or admitted as a document at this

 6     trial.  I only accept what I'm saying here today.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I'm going to tender the transcript and

 8     the audiotapes of those portions of the interviews that were discussed,

 9     and the Court will be free to review those.  We have the translation

10     check.  As the Court will see, it's a translation that takes place in

11     small chunks as the witness is speaking, but the original tape of the

12     witness's comments and the questions he was asked will be available to

13     the Court.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The witness confirmed the statement in 2009, and you

15     stated that in that statement, he embraced his statement in 2006.  Could

16     you tell us where he embraced the 2006 statement in his 2009 statement?

17             MR. TIEGER:  What I was referring to, Your Honour, was the fact

18     that the 2006 interview was referred to, and then the witness also

19     referred to that same conversation with Josipovic which is referred to in

20     the 2009 interview.  That portion begins at -- well, indeed, I'm more

21     than happy to tender the entire part.

22             At the beginning of e-court page 79, I think it is,

23     Mr. Prstojevic is shown the intercept which we've just looked at; that

24     is, the one in which "krmaca" is referred to.  And then there's a

25     discussion which goes on about that, and the interviewer points out that

Page 13577

 1     in a 2006 interview, Mr. Prstojevic said that one of the nicknames for

 2     air-bombs was "krmaca."  And then Mr. Prstojevic discusses the Josipovic

 3     conversation that was read out.

 4             But I'm certainly happy to tender the entirety of that that

 5     begins with the presentation of that intercept in 2009, plus, of course,

 6     the relevant portions of the 2006 interview.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9             I think we recognise that a prior inconsistent statement can be

10     admissible, and we don't -- we leave it to the Chamber as to how much of

11     it it wishes to receive.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit those parts.  So shall we give

13     separate numbers for the two interviews?

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             65 ter 11562 will be Exhibit P2516, and 22233 will be

16     Exhibit P2517.

17             JUDGE KWON:  In order to be precise, could you give the page

18     numbers for the 2009 interview, Mr. Tieger, again?

19             MR. TIEGER:  I believe the B/C/S page numbers, and I will

20     double-check that, Your Honour, go from B/C/S 79 to B/C/S 82 -- 82,

21     I think.  I'm not entirely sure it doesn't bleed over to 83.  But I think

22     those references are correct, and we will double-check those.

23             JUDGE KWON:  That should include the page numbers which the

24     witness alleged have been omitted when you read out?

25             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, I wanted -- I wanted to begin with the moment

Page 13578

 1     where he's presented with this intercept, and discussion about "krmaca"

 2     begins in that context.  And if anyone can show it begins earlier, I'll

 3     be happy to tender earlier portions as well.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, could also the recordings be

 5     admitted, since the witness has indicated that he was not translated

 6     properly?  I think it would be proper for the Chamber to also receive the

 7     actual recordings.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  In relation to the 2006 interview?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  I would say 2006 and 2009.

10             MR. TIEGER:  I think I indicated that that was my intention, and

11     so I certainly have no objection to that.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That will be done.

13             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15             If we could turn next to 65 ter 31673.

16        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, I believe you'll recognise this as another

17     intercept that you had an opportunity to listen to in 2009.  It's a

18     conversation between you and Mr. Veselinovic on the 29th of June, 1995.

19     It appears, at the beginning, that Veselinovic is trying to reach you,

20     and then you come on the line.  And there is a discussion about what's

21     being taking place, referring to counter-attacks and who's been fighting

22     and not.

23             And then, as we continue on to the second page of the English, at

24     the top of the page you say:

25             "That's why we need to reach for this harder and more frequently

Page 13579

 1     and ..."

 2             And Veselinovic says:

 3             "He did that.  They mainly didn't move anything that was done,

 4     and so ..."

 5             And then you say:

 6             "Nothing, nothing.  The ploughing and the levelling needs to

 7     continue further out, the rest ... to be around."

 8             Veselinovic agrees:  "Yeah, yeah:

 9             "You say:

10             "Stay around.  I told Radojcic that everything ... all the way to

11     the PTT is ours."

12             He begins say:  "Well ..."

13             You say:

14             "And if he attacks, he levels.  As I could see on TV, the

15     television's been hit, that's good."

16             And Veselinovic says:

17             "Of course it's good.  Mladic congratulated and all."

18             And you say:

19             "Mladic congratulated?"

20             And Veselinovic says:

21             "Sure he did.  He called this morning."

22             And then you say -- apparently, there's laughter:

23             "Well, yeah.  Oh, bro, it's good, it's good.  But we need to use

24     these heavier and stronger if they go into counter-attack and level them

25     out wide."

Page 13580

 1             First, Mr. Prstojevic, can you confirm that this is an interview

 2     that you had an opportunity to hear in 2009 and confirmed that it was

 3     your voice on the intercept?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   We've had evidence in this court about what the television

 6     building was hit with, but what do you say you were referring to when you

 7     say:

 8             "We need to use these heavier and stronger," and then there's an

 9     object omitted, "if they go into counter-attack"?

10        A.   Please, this is a conversation that is taking place during the

11     June offensive in 1995, when we were supposed to be expelled and

12     slaughtered.  As opposed to other situations, I was at home, because

13     throughout the war I was away from home, as I am in The Hague now.  And

14     I'm talking to a man in the municipality of Ilidza, Mr. Veselinovic.  The

15     situation is very difficult, critical, and the chief of staff of the

16     Ilidza Brigade is panic-stricken because the attacks are so forceful and

17     artillery, ammunition and mortar shells are being used with great

18     intensity.  We are defending ourselves, and we are practically hitting

19     all military targets.

20             And what I'm saying here, what should be hit, that is my house,

21     Stup 365, before I was born.  That's where I spent four or five years,

22     and I know that area.  That area, from the home for the elderly in

23     Nedzarici, to the intersection of the railroads from Zenica and Mostar,

24     moved towards Ilidza about 100 metres.  That is a military target only.

25     There was one APC next to another, a tank next to another, military

Page 13581

 1     units, and other weapons, and there was terrible fighting there.

 2             The most important thing for us was that we were persistently in

 3     a lowland.  Ilidza is below Sarajevo, and our mortars, I mean --

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry to interrupt, but I think to the extent I

 5     sought an answer to my question, I've received all I'm going to get in

 6     response to that.  I wasn't asking for a dissertation on the entire

 7     situation that existed at the time.

 8             Your Honour, I'd tender 65 ter 31673.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Well, did you get the answer to your question,

10     Mr. Tieger?

11             MR. TIEGER:  No, Your Honour, but I'm not going to press on it.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, what the witness said has not

15     been interpreted.  Otherwise, an answer would have been received, the end

16     of the sentence.  If you can ask the witness to say what he said at the

17     end.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There were overlapping

19     speakers at that point in time.  We cannot hear two people speaking at

20     the same time.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

22             Mr. Prstojevic, could you repeat your last -- the last part of

23     your answer?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The last part of my answer is as

25     follows:  This area that I spoke about is a military target only.  When

Page 13582

 1     we are speaking about this, I explained very specifically.  A

 2     120-millimetre mortar shell is lethal, and that is the heaviest of all.

 3     For example, if our artillery were to have 155 millimetres, they still

 4     couldn't hit that, because it has to go to the sky and then back down.

 5     That's what I mean, that weapon, and nothing else.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             As indicated, I tender the intercept.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2518, Your Honours.

12             MR. TIEGER:

13        Q.   And finally, Mr. Prstojevic, we've seen that -- your position in

14     the municipality from 1992 through 1995.  Is it correct that Mr. Karadzic

15     could have removed you from your position any time he wanted?

16        A.   That is not correct.  He could not have removed me from that

17     position, because it wasn't President Karadzic who appointed me.  I was

18     elected by the Grand Assembly of the Serb Municipality of Ilidza,

19     consisting of about 70 assemblymen on the 5th of April, 1992, I think.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Let me direct your attention to two -- to portions

21     of two documents.  First -- sorry, Your Honour, I have the tape number,

22     but I need the 65 ter number.  That's 65 ter 07875, and that would be

23     page 26 of the English and page 16 of the B/C/S.

24        Q.   And if we look in the middle of the -- sort of the top -- bottom

25     of the top third of the English, you say:

Page 13583

 1             "Momcilo Krajisnik and Karadzic could remove me whenever they

 2     wanted."

 3        A.   That is not correct.

 4        Q.   And then if we turn to your testimony in the Krajisnik case.  At

 5     page 14572, you're asked the following:

 6             "Q.  Let me direct this question, Mr. Prstojevic, to you, in

 7     particular.  Did Dr. Karadzic, or Mr. Krajisnik, or both, or neither,

 8     have the power to remove you whenever they wanted?

 9             "A.  It is crystal clear.  Had he wanted to, had Mr. Karadzic

10     wanted to remove somebody from a position of local authority, he would

11     consult Mr. Krajisnik, and they could do that sort of thing at any time,

12     although I don't know of a single case regarding local authorities such

13     as municipalities."

14             First of all, Mr. Prstojevic, will you confirm that that's what

15     you said during the Krajisnik case, under oath, and also what you said to

16     the interviewers in 2003?

17        A.   In 2003, that was a different interview and I couldn't have said

18     that.  I'm looking through my notebook now to see what I said during the

19     trial of Mr. Krajisnik.  But I could not have said what you read out just

20     now.  And I'm looking through my notebook to see what I heard the other

21     day on a CD and what I said with regard to that matter.  I will speak up

22     when I find that.  As far as I can remember, I said then as well that

23     they could not have removed me because, quite simply, they were not the

24     ones who affected my election as president of the SDS, or the commander

25     of the Crisis Staff, or president of the municipality.  Those who elect

Page 13584

 1     you can replace you.  We were not appointed by way of directives, we, the

 2     presidents of municipalities.

 3             I'm now looking for this, and we'll see when I find it.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I would tender those relevant portions,

 5     first of the 2003 interview and then of the Krajisnik transcript, which,

 6     as I indicated, was page 14572, and those should probably be separate.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to tender that portion of the Krajisnik

10     transcript separately from the one we have already admitted?

11             MR. TIEGER:  I don't think it makes much difference, Your Honour.

12     If you think it's more expedient to tender them as one exhibit, that's

13     fine, as long as we have an appropriate reference in the transcript.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit the -- how about the

15     interview?

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit this portion of the interview and add

18     the Krajisnik transcript portion to the already-existing exhibit.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit P2519.

21             MR. TIEGER:  And that concludes my examination.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  For the record, can I have the exhibit number of the

23     Krajisnik transcript?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It's P2513, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 13585

 1             Mr. Karadzic, although we'll have a break in 15 minutes' time,

 2     let us begin.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Prstojevic.

 6        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I manage to do so, I would like

 8     to adhere to the chronology of events, so I would like to ask for 1D1363

 9     in e-court, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   While we're waiting for that, can you tell us when the

12     Serb Democratic Party was established in Ilidza?  There should be a

13     translation as well.

14        A.   The Serb Democratic Party in Ilidza was established with a major

15     delay.  I was not present at the founding Assembly, so I will have to

16     look up the exact date in my documentation.  However, I know for sure

17     that the SDA and the HDZ were established before the SDS in Ilidza.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to draw your attention to this article

19     from "Oslobodjenje," the joint "Oslobodjenje" at that time.  The 8th of

20     September, 1990, is the date.  Is this piece of news correct?  Can you

21     have a look at this, and can you tell us what the essence of this piece

22     of news is?

23        A.   I have found my own manuscript.  The SDS was established on the

24     7th of September, 1990.  The text I see here is what "Oslobodjenje"

25     carried on the very next day.  We can see, from the headline, that it

Page 13586

 1     says:

 2             "Respect the basis for life together."

 3             So that is mutual respect, mutual love, because for love, you

 4     need two or three people.  And everything is clear, practically, from the

 5     headline itself.

 6        Q.   Does this say that the representatives of the Party of Democratic

 7     Action were present as guests?

 8        A.   Yes, I know that they were present.  I talked to people, and

 9     later on as well.  I know that Mr. Haris Silajdzic attended in person.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please ask the Registry to

11     provide the translation here for all the other participants to see,

12     because there is a translation.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

14        Q.   Could you please look at this first sentence uttered by

15     Momcilo Ceklic, "Brothers and sisters"?  Could you read it out, because

16     we haven't much time.

17        A.   "Brothers and sisters, we have met here --" now they've changed

18     this for me, this text.

19        Q.   Yes, now we have the translation.

20        A.   Should I go on reading?

21             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think so, Mr. Prstojevic.  We can read it

22     now, Mr. Karadzic.  Put your question.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   What is being highlighted here, in respect of hatred, and, as

25     opposed to hatred, respect for neighbours, brothers and friends, was that

Page 13587

 1     the basis upon which the Serb people of Ilidza responded, in terms of

 2     joining the SDS?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can this be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  What is the nature of this document, Mr. Karadzic?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a newspaper report in the

 8     joint "Oslobodjenje," two months before the elections, that the

 9     Serb Democratic Party was established in Mr. Prstojevic's municipality.

10     The words uttered at the founding Assembly were transmitted here on the

11     basis of what this party is being established.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Yes, that will be admitted.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1177, Your Honours.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Prstojevic, that then, and all the way up

17     until after the elections, the end of January 1991, the SDA was also in

18     favour of preserving Yugoslavia?

19        A.   Yes, for a long period of time, up until some Assembly there.

20        Q.   In addition to other elements, was that the basis for your

21     co-operation with the SDA in Ilidza?

22        A.   Absolutely, yes, and mutual respect, maintaining safety and

23     security for all citizens in the municipality of Ilidza, the functioning

24     of the state authorities of government, and that will go on functioning

25     in our territory until the war broke out.

Page 13588

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 65 ter 16197.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Is it correct that government was shared by the three victorious

 4     parties and that, with regard to this power-sharing, the agreement

 5     reached at republican level was respected as well as the agreements

 6     reached by the local leaderships of the parties involved?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Was this agreement reached immediately after the elections, and

 9     was it used to usher in the new government after the Communists lost

10     power?

11        A.   Yes.  In essence, we had certain objections in respect of the

12     elections.  We believed that in Hrasnica I, Hrasnica II, and

13     Sokolovic Kolonija, the Muslims had stolen our votes, or, rather, that

14     they forged the ballots.  However, that could not be adopted at the first

15     Assembly, because against us we had Serbs too, assemblymen from the SDP,

16     the reformists, and then the HDZ and so on.  But then when that did not

17     succeed, then we proceeded to share power in a very fair way.  I think we

18     gave the Croats more than they were entitled to on the basis of the

19     number of votes they had won.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right if I say that as for the elections and as

21     for the census in 1991, which was never adopted in the Assembly, there

22     was this strong objection voiced by the Serb side; that is to say, that

23     there were suspicions of forgery, of falsifying the results?

24        A.   Yes to both.  As for the statistics concerning the elections, I

25     worked on that myself as a mere clerk.  And this is how they falsified

Page 13589

 1     it:  The Serb local communes provided information about the elections,

 2     how many people voted and for who.  They kept their own information from

 3     the local communes that had the largest populations, and then they simply

 4     forged a sufficient number of votes for the SDA so that they would get

 5     somewhat more than we did.

 6             Let me add one more thing.  Regardless of that, ethnic Serbs in

 7     the SDS and in the reformist party, the SDP, could out-vote both the

 8     Muslims and the Croats because they were more numerous.  When the census

 9     took place, we have written documents through which we challenged the

10     legitimacy of the census in 1991.  I know that it was Mr. Momcilo Ceklic,

11     the secretary, who worked on this document, and also Nikola Tausan, an

12     administrative officer who has a degree in law.  He worked on this as

13     well.  However, this was never presented before the Assembly because,

14     quite simply, the Assembly services that were headed by the president,

15     Mr. Mahmutovic, did not put this on the agenda and there was no debate in

16     this regard.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that for the Council of Municipalities,

18     MPs were elected on the basis of major principle, and that in Ilidza, it

19     was the Serb representative that won the majority of votes?

20        A.   Yes, Mr. Ljubo Bosiljcic.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did that confirm your own suspicions with regard to

22     the census and with regard to the elections, based on the proportion of

23     principle, that something was wrong?

24        A.   Absolutely, because Mr. Ljubo Bosiljcic could not have become a

25     member of the Republican Assembly if the Muslims were a majority, because

Page 13590

 1     the Muslims had their own candidate and the Croats had their own

 2     candidate.  So most of these divisions were along ethnic lines.  So Serbs

 3     voted for Bosancic, the Muslims voted for their candidate, and the Croats

 4     voted for their candidate.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I will have to ask you before the kind interpreters

 6     who have been exercising restraint, caution us.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Prstojevic, do you have something to say?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  I just took off my glasses

 9     because I don't really need them now.  I just need them when I read.

10     Thank you very much.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I will have to ask you to pause.  We should both pause.  I have

13     to remind myself as well, that we should both pause so that we do not

14     exhaust our interpreters.

15             This document that is on the screen now, does it represent a

16     record of the successfully-achieved agreement on responsibility for

17     running the schools in the territory of your municipality?

18             And let us look at the next page now and then the one after that

19     so that we gain sufficient insight.  The last one as well, and then let's

20     go back to the first page.  Thank you.

21             Can we have the first page now, please.

22             Is it correct, Mr. Prstojevic, that at the proposal of the

23     chairman -- actually, who was chairing this meeting?

24        A.   As a rule, this meeting was supposed to be chaired by the

25     president of the SDA, Mahmutovic, or I was supposed to be chairing it.

Page 13591

 1     The participants were people who were officials.  However, it is under

 2     the auspices of the political parties.  It wasn't under the auspices of

 3     the officials.  So it wasn't chairing in terms of the office held.  This

 4     is an agreement between the political parties, and I'm a participant in

 5     this inter-party meeting.  And it's not really important, who chaired the

 6     meeting.  It was probably the representative of the SDA, because it was

 7     believed that they were the most numerous party.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that the first item before this is a

 9     proposal to adopt a joint appeal of the victorious parties, addressed to

10     the citizens of Ilidza, and an agreement on specific activities of the

11     victorious parties, in terms of preserving the peaceful co-existence of

12     the citizens of Ilidza?

13        A.   Yes, that was done with good reason.

14        Q.   Are you trying to say that on the 23rd of July, 1991, when this

15     meeting was held, there had already been tensions that you consider to be

16     a reason for working further on maintaining co-existence?

17        A.   Well, yes, there was certain information that was coming in from

18     the area of Sarajevo, in more general terms, and that was spilling over

19     to the municipality of Ilidza that is practically on the outskirts, and

20     this disturbed inter-ethnic relations.  And we didn't want this kind of

21     spill-over into our area, because the things that the SDA primarily did

22     in the area of the city of Sarajevo, this was leaking into the public

23     domain through people who had a Yugoslav orientation, both Serbs and

24     Muslims and Croats, who were in favour of peace and tolerance.  It is the

25     women who transmitted this the best and the most as they had coffee.

Page 13592

 1        Q.   Can you give us a few specific examples of what was going on and

 2     what made the citizens of Ilidza feel upset?

 3        A.   Well, you see it's almost the end of July 1991.  I have specific

 4     examples only later.  It was only later that they became more prominent.

 5     For example, in this period, for instance, this Council for

 6     National Defence, for instance, some Muslims established this Council for

 7     National Defence that they had, and I cannot remember exactly, but

 8     already in one period of time they established some Patriotic League as a

 9     separate army.  At any rate, these disruptions came from the Muslim side.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do we remember or do we recall that on the

11     10th of June or on the 11th of June, this Council for Defence was

12     established by the Muslims, and that this council was chaired by

13     Mr. Izetbegovic, who otherwise, ex officio, was supposed to chair the

14     Council for National Defence of the entire republic, not only the

15     Muslims?

16        A.   Yes, there was some meeting at the police building where the

17     creme de la creme of the Muslims was gathered under the chairmanship of

18     Mr. Izetbegovic.  Everyone was there, starting with intellectuals to the

19     representatives of the youth.  And I fully agree that that was the case.

20        Q.   At the time, did the Muslim side declare publicly that they would

21     not respond to call-up by the Yugoslav People's Army, and that they would

22     not send conscripts to the JNA?

23        A.   In that period, they clearly would appeal to their Muslim

24     citizens not to send recruits to the Yugoslav People's Army.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 13593

 1             Can this document be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1178, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we going on the break?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             Mr. Karadzic, I should have --

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  This time, did you want to say something, or just

 9     holding on to your glasses?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, thank you.  I'm waiting for the

11     break too.

12             JUDGE KWON:  This time, the Court Deputy was mistaken, not

13     myself.

14             I should have told you this, Mr. Karadzic:  We allotted you 10

15     hours for your cross-examination.  Given that this witness gave his

16     evidence-in-chief viva voce and that the Prosecution has used nine hours

17     and thirteen minutes for its examination-in-chief, I would expect you not

18     to spend more than nine hours, the same amount of time as the Prosecution

19     has used, for your cross-examination.

20             We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at five past 1.00.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I was hoping I would get more than

22     10.

23                           --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 1.06 p.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 13594

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can we have 1D1388 in e-court, please.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   And while we're waiting:  Mr. Prstojevic, do you know who Senad

 5     Sahinpasic, called Saja is?  It is not necessary that you know him

 6     personally, just if you know who he is?

 7        A.   I don't know him, but I did hear of this man.  I don't know.  I

 8     assume that there's something that has to do with the Patriotic League or

 9     the Green Berets in connection with that person.  I'm not sure.

10        Q.   All right.  Let's see what we have now.

11             Are you familiar with this publication called "Vox"?

12        A.   Yes, the "Vox" publication is familiar.  I am also aware that

13     there was "Slobodna Bosna."  There was another publication similar to

14     "Vox," but I will remember.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Can you recognise on whose heads is this member of

16     the Handzar Division?  Is this person dressed in the traditional way that

17     members of the Handzar Division were dressed, who were members of the SS?

18        A.   Yes, it says:

19             "The 4th Reich is coming."

20             We did look at this original publication.  All I can tell from

21     this now is we see a soldier, a member of the notorious Handzar Division,

22     that reached Stalingrad in World War II.  He's standing, and I can see

23     that he has one foot on your head.  I cannot recognise these other

24     people, but evidently it's obvious that they are Serbs.

25        Q.   Could this person next to me be Professor Koljevic?

Page 13595

 1        A.   I really cannot tell from this picture.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Can we look at the

 3     following page, and can the English page stay.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is October 1991.  This publication existed since 1990.

 6     Would you agree -- can we just zoom in on the Serbian text, please.

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the accused please be asked to speak into

 8     the microphone.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you agree that it states here that:

11             "A year ago, a satirical text appeared in our newspaper about the

12     creation of a hypothetical Islamic Republic of Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina ..."

14             And so on and so forth?  Does that mean that the publication

15     existed from a year before that?

16        A.   Yes, I remember this publication, and I remember what this other

17     publication was called too.  It was called the "Muslimanski Glasnik."

18     But they are similar and the text in it was similar.  It was as if they

19     were written during the war.  When you read the text, you feel as if you

20     are not in Bosnia-Herzegovina at that time but you feel like you're in

21     some country where there is war.

22             For example, in 1991, Bosnia was occupied.  Certain places were

23     occupied.  They would be liberated, and so on and so forth.  Practically,

24     it was a publication from wartime, even though there was no war at the

25     time.

Page 13596

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And you can see here what will happen to the Serbs.

 2     First of all, it says:

 3             "The day is nearing when the announced Islamic Republic of Bosnia

 4     and Herzegovina will be proclaimed:  That date, which every Muslim in

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Sandzak is ardently waiting for, has been known

 6     for a long time to be the 31st of December of this year."

 7             They are thinking of 1990, following the elections, is that

 8     correct, since this was published the year before?

 9        A.   Yes, but -- yes, that's what I think, yes, but I can't see it

10     here now.  But it's quite clear from which period this publication dates.

11        Q.   I'm going to list here in order, and I ask the parties to look at

12     that, all the things that belong to the Serbs or will be given to the

13     Serbs in such an Islamic republic:

14             "Thus, every individual must be aware of the responsibility of

15     the entire people for his uncontrolled actions.  Penalties for crimes

16     committed shall be collective - for one destroyed Muslim house, ten

17     Serbian ones will be demolished; for one dead Muslim shall be liquidated

18     10 to 50 Serbs."

19             Then it says:

20             "All Serbs shall work --" I don't know how many hours per day,

21     probably there is a translation here.  Yes, you cannot see it, and:

22             "... their salaries shall be 30 per cent lower.  Serbs will be

23     dismissed first.  They cannot visit public buildings without special

24     passes.  Serbs are getting their food on coupons.  Serbs have no national

25     rights.  They shall not have any national parties."

Page 13597

 1             "And Serbs shall not be deprived of the right to produce alcohol,

 2     but Muslims shall be entitled to apply Sharia to all inhabitants of the

 3     state."

 4             And so on and so forth.

 5             Is this a fairly faithful description of the situation of the

 6     Christians during the Turkish occupation?

 7        A.   Well, yes, but I did notice one particular point, and that is

 8     that Serbs will be issued food on ration points.

 9             And there is a witness who is referring to, Risto Coric.  In

10     April 1992, in the neighbourhood of Alipasino Polje, where this person

11     lived, they were already asking for personal ID cards when buying

12     articles in supermarkets and department stores, and that person visited

13     me in Ilidza in April on two occasions.  He's a classmate of mine.  His

14     hands were shaking as he was telling me about these dramatic things that

15     were happening there.  We were powerless to do anything about that.

16             And, secondly, kill 50 for 1, this something that was done in

17     World War II during the fascist period and the fascist NDH state, where

18     for one person killed, 100 Serbs would be shot, they would be taken from

19     their homes and executed.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can we look at the next page, please, in the Serbian.  I don't

22     know if it's translated.  It's not necessary, because pictures are --

23     we're looking at pictures.

24             Can we look at this half only where there are photographs?  Can

25     we zoom in on that part, please.

Page 13598

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, is this the usual way of announcing somebody's

 3     death, and that these are notices of my own death, the death of

 4     Nikola Plavsic, Nikola Koljevic, your own deputy, Bosiljcic, the

 5     president of the Reformist Party, of Ante Markovic, in Bosnia that was

 6     Nenad Kecmanovic, then Nenad Pejic, who was from the Croatian Television?

 7        A.   Yes, I know all the people in these photographs.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at this part where the

 9     text is, please.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   I don't know whether this is translated, but does it not state

12     here that:

13             "The Homeland War is at our door-step.  Bosnia is occupied, but

14     not for long."

15             Is this the title?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I am going to just read one sentence in the last

18     paragraph, the second sentence, and you can control me:

19             "War is our fate.  No matter how much weaker we are at this

20     point, we have to get into battle.  We have to liberate our Bosnia."

21             Does it not say that in this paragraph?

22        A.   Yes, it states that in the last paragraph that begins:

23             "All right, let's look at the truth straight on."

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we now zoom in on the bottom part, where we can see who the

Page 13599

 1     publisher is.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Does it not state here that the founder and publisher is

 4     Senad Sahinpasic, editor-in-chief, Esref Rasidagic, and so forth?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Does not the last sentence say "Novi Vox," by a special decision

 7     of the republican Committee for Information, does not have to pay a

 8     special tax on sales, a special sales tax?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So is this publication favoured as a publication of special

11     national importance?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not get the beginning of

13     the answer.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a special magazine that

15     affirms culture, science, music, so it's not common for a political

16     magazine to be waived from paying the sales tax, as far as I'm concerned.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Can we now have page 4 from this one.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Prstojevic, since you overlapped with the

20     interpretation, the interpreters couldn't hear the first part of your

21     previous answer.  Did you say anything before you say:

22             "This is a special magazine that affirms culture, science,

23     music ..."?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said this:  The "Vox" publication

25     didn't have to pay a sales tax, but I added that it was not usual for

Page 13600

 1     political magazines not to have to pay sales tax.  This was a privilege

 2     for magazines that covered cultural issues, literature, music, that dealt

 3     with human values.  Such publications did not have to pay a sales tax.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Your Excellency, I missed it, I didn't see that, because it

 6     turned out that this magazine was affirming culture and music and science

 7     and so on.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, this is a magazine that is

 9     actually simulating war.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we look at the fourth page from this one.  No, no, the fourth

12     page from this one; three more and then the fourth.  Can we zoom in on

13     the left part of the page where the photographs are, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Are you familiar with the names Hasan Delic and

16     Dzevad Galijasevic?

17        A.   Dzevad Galijasevic, yes.  I cannot recall Hasan, though.

18        Q.   Are these Muslim names, and are these people Muslims, according

19     to your knowledge and judging by their name?

20        A.   Yes, these are Muslim names and these are Muslims.

21        Q.   Does it not state here:  "Stenogram, Chetnik, Hasan and Dzevad"?

22     And does that not mean that these pro-European Muslims were proclaimed

23     Chetniks, just because they were not fundamentalists; in other words,

24     they were proclaimed as Serbs?

25        A.   Yes, practically, yes.  The magazine that I referred to, the

Page 13601

 1     second one, it practically proclaimed all Yugoslav-oriented people,

 2     regardless of their ethnicity and religion, enemies of Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina.  And this publication that I mentioned did that in early

 4     May, immediately around the period of the referendum.  So it's nothing

 5     unusual to see something like this, to see Muslims, who were in favour of

 6     tolerance, life together, and who were pro-European and pro-Yugoslav, to

 7     find themselves at the brunt of such pressure.  They were also fleeing

 8     from Muslim areas, and we have data about that in the Ilidza

 9     municipality.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can we have the fifth page from this one; that is, three pages

12     from the end.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This is a photograph of Dr. Mate Mestrovic, a well-known Croatian

15     emigre of the Ustasha orientation; would you agree?  Can you please just

16     read out the title to the Trial Chamber?  What does Dr. Mate Mestrovic

17     say?

18        A.   "Serbs are people suffering from complexes."

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             Can we tender this document?

21             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1179, Your Honours.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is this publication one of the things that was of concern or

25     causing concern among the Ilidza population?

Page 13602

 1        A.   Yes, I quite clearly said that, Mr. President.  It simulates war.

 2     It writes as if war was already going on in Bosnia and Herzegovina, so

 3     whoever read that had to get upset.  But "Slobodna Bosna" also had some

 4     extremely disturbing text, as well as another Muslim publication,

 5     "Muslimanski Glasnik," which was a bit milder than "Vox," much milder,

 6     but, for example, did tag Serbs as enemies of Bosnia and Herzegovina as

 7     well as other oriented citizens who were in favour of life together and

 8     in favour of tolerance.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             Can we now have 1D3840 [as interpreted], please, but it should

11     not be broadcast until the Prosecution says whether there are any

12     restrictions about this document.  I don't see that there are any, but

13     let us wait.  So 1D3480.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Indeed, there are restrictions, and it must be used

15     in private session, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If not broadcasting is not

18     sufficient, then we have to go into private session.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we go into private session.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, let us see it in e-court.

21     Yes, here it is now.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 13603











11  Pages 13603-13606 redacted. Private session.















Page 13607

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Prstojevic, in this text, persons from Sandzak are mentioned

13     as a specific group or entity belonging to Bosnian Muslims.  They are

14     also mentioned in the declaration about what lay in wait for the Serbs,

15     and that the Muslims from Sandzak also were in favour of such a state,

16     and that their heart was all for that.  Did you have any such phenomenon

17     in your municipality, a phenomenon that could be called the

18     Sandzak Phenomenon?

19        A.   Yes.  Well, we knew from before the war that the Muslims -- the

20     Muslim leadership in Sarajevo, the political and military wing that in

21     late 1991 was already visible, that they had called on the Muslims from

22     Sandzak and Kosovo and Macedonia to participate in the defensive war in

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina which had not yet broken out.  However, in Ilidza, the

24     case was rather specific, and so it was in other parts of Sarajevo.

25     There was a marked movement of persons from Sandzak who were moving into

Page 13608

 1     one specific local commune, one of the 20 local communes in Ilidza which

 2     was called Sokolovic.  Because these people from Sandzak were moving in,

 3     it received the name Sokolovic Kolonija, which means "Sokolovic Colony."

 4     In that area, the persons from Sandzak will become dominant over time,

 5     both politically and economically, and they used political and economic

 6     influences not only on the Serbs, but also on the Muslims who had lived

 7     there originally, and they began to dictate how everything would be

 8     ordered in this local commune.  One of the prominent people in this local

 9     commune was Enver Hodzic - I believe that that was his name - who was

10     nicknamed Enker.

11             These people from Sandzak were a great evil for this local

12     commune and then for Ilidza as well.  However, over time they became

13     great evil for Sarajevo, for in Sarajevo the commander-in-chief and the

14     person who organised paramilitary units before the war was

15     Sefer Halilovic, who is himself a native of Sandzak.  Up until 1991, he

16     hadn't practically been an inhabitants of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He had

17     been born in Sandzak, in Serbia.

18             And with these people in Sandzak, they will have huge problems,

19     the autochthonous Muslims, who were there from the beginning.  And as for

20     us, they were a source of danger as we came into 1992, and there were

21     already incidents in 1992.  And immediately after the referendum, there

22     were even some murders of Serbs that were mysterious, and we did not

23     manage to resolve up until the beginning of the war, which broke out on

24     the 3rd of April.

25             So this was a segment of the population which was extremist,

Page 13609

 1     fundamentalist, and had at -- had some property that was gained in

 2     various unlawful ways from Sandzak all the way to Sarajevo.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I will try to ask you as many questions to which you

 4     can answer yes or no, though your information is very helpful.

 5             Is it true that persons from Sandzak became identified with

 6     belligerence, danger and crimes?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right when I say that Sokolovic Kolonija became

 9     synonymous with building new settlements for the Sandzak Muslims in the

10     Serbian ethnic territories, with the aim of changing the ethnic make-up?

11        A.   Yes, Mr. President, I am well aware of this, because since the

12     1st of February, 1991, I was the secretary for inspection, whose

13     responsibility it was to prevent illegal construction in the area of the

14     entire Ilidza municipality.  And, simply, in this period while I was the

15     secretary for inspection, when I introduced the norm for other

16     inspectors, what they had to do on the ground and what had to be

17     prosecuted in court, in this local commune, out of fear, fearing their

18     personal security, the inspectors and Muslim -- both Muslims and Serbs

19     could not do their tasks during 1991 and 1992.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Am I right if I say that illegally-constructed

21     settlements, Sanac and Sokolje, above Rajlovac, were also built in order

22     to allow large numbers of Muslims to move from Sandzak to Sarajevo?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let me now ask you another thing.  Would you accept

25     that our language knows terms such as "birth-rate" and "natural

Page 13610

 1     birth-rate"?

 2        A.   Yes, President, this is something that is well known in science,

 3     what is natural birth-rate and what is birth-rate on other bases.

 4        Q.   Yes.  In English, they have some difficulty with translating

 5     this, but let me ask you this:  Do you know -- have you seen or heard,

 6     and did the people know that even before it was published, that the chief

 7     of the religious community of Muslims in Bosnia had issued a fatwa,

 8     saying that every Muslim woman should give birth to at least five

 9     children so that one could be sacrificed for Bosnia?

10        A.   I do not know this.  However, generally speaking, I am aware that

11     according to their religion, because I was born among Muslims 100

12     kilometres away from Sarajevo, that their religion says that one should

13     give birth to children and should sacrifice oneself, because the one who

14     dies, allegedly, makes revenge.  I saw something about that in an

15     instruction for a Muslim soldier from the Meshihat, that is, the Islamic

16     religious community of Zenica.  This was published in 50.000 copies,

17     which means that it was available to any and every Muslim soldier.

18     Everything there is founded on the Koran, and I gave a copy of that to

19     investigators in 2003.  There are no Geneva Conventions there or other

20     regulations, but how things were done when the Koran was authorised.

21        Q.   Thank you.  We will obtain this text, I hope, while you are still

22     testifying and present it.  But I wish us to make a distinction between

23     natural birth-rate and the sources of artificial birth-rate.

24             The first source of artificial birth-rate or growth of

25     population, I mentioned the fatwa of the religious leader, that one

Page 13611

 1     should give birth to children for political reasons.  If you haven't seen

 2     it, we'll present it with another witness.

 3             Is another source of artificial growth a forced movement of

 4     Muslims from Sandzak to Sarajevo?

 5        A.   Well, it's quite clear.  The moving in of Muslims from

 6     Sokolovic Kolonija -- to Sokolovic Kolonija, in Ilidza, it was an

 7     artificial means of growth.  And it is something that we in Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina were well aware of, that the entire Sarajevo grew in the

 9     numbers of the population by people moving in from elsewhere.  And

10     natural growth is the birth-rate, the birth-rate of the people who are

11     already inhabitants of one particular place.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Have you heard or been informed at party meetings

13     about the secret plan of Omer Behmen and Alija Izetbegovic to provide a

14     third source of artificial growth of population; that up to four million

15     Muslims should move into Bosnia, mainly Turks?

16        A.   I cannot remember that.  However, I know that Behmen is one of

17     the authors of "The Islamic Declaration," together with Mr. Izetbegovic.

18     However, it wasn't only Turkey, Mr. President; it was generally known.

19     All of us knew that Islamic fanatics find closer to their hearts a man

20     from Asia, Africa, wherever, just as long as they are of the Islamic

21     faith, rather than their very own neighbours next to whom they live.  In

22     wartime, they were counting on having people moved in from these

23     countries.  They were not trying to save their own lives.  They didn't

24     mind how many of their soldiers would lose their lives when fighting the

25     Serbs.  Before the war and even now, they will increase their population

Page 13612

 1     that way, unless the European Union brings this to a halt.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Now I would like to see what the Serbs were doing at the same

 4     time.

 5             Could we have 65 ter 30407 now, please.

 6             This is an intercept, a conversation between Radovan Karadzic and

 7     Jovo Jovanovic, the 6th of November, 1991, before our plebiscite on

 8     Yugoslavia.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber who Jovo Jovanovic is?

11        A.   Mr. Jovo Jovanovic is an elderly man, if I can put it that way,

12     the president of the City Board of the SDS, and a man who, in contrast to

13     many Serbs, myself included, is a person whose ancestors have lived in

14     the territory of Sarajevo since time immemorial.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please have a look at this intercept.  I

16     called him late in the evening, and I apologised.  So everyone will have

17     an opportunity to see this document:  It has to do with preparations for

18     our referendum on the 10th and 11th of November; isn't that right?

19     That's when we had our plebiscite on whether we wished to remain in

20     Yugoslavia?

21        A.   Yes --

22        Q.   Thank you.

23        A.   And I think that you even went to some of the polling station in

24     Ilidza.  And that Enker who I mention here recorded you with a video

25     camera in Sokolovic Kolonija, if I remember properly.

Page 13613

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Possibly, thank you.

 2             Can we have the last page.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Here it is.  Jovo Jovanovic says:

 5             "In the morning, I will be speaking about the plebiscite on the

 6     radio."

 7             It's around the middle of the page in Serbian:

 8             [In English] "Tomorrow morning, I will be on Radio 202 at 10 to

 9     7.00."

10             [Interpretation] "10 to 7.00."

11             And this is what I say:  "Aha."

12             And then in a peaceful way, we are just expressing our views.

13     And Jovo says:

14             "You know what it's like, strong current."

15             And I say:

16             "Yes, yes, and that's great.  Everybody should come out."

17             And Jovo says:  "Of course."

18             And I say:

19             "That's the best way to maintain the peace."

20             And so on.

21             Then Jovo says:  "It's going pretty well."

22             And Radovan:  "All right, Jovo, take care."

23             Jovo:  "Have a nice day, so goodbye."

24             And another:  "Goodbye."

25             Is this fully in line with what you know about our efforts to

Page 13614

 1     work on a political level while preserving togetherness and unity?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   On the basis of this and on the basis of what you, yourself know,

 4     is it not the case that this referendum was only there to express the

 5     wish of the people, and that no decision is derived from it?

 6        A.   Yes, the referendum was fully public, and other people who were

 7     not only Serbs, who were of a pro-Yugoslav orientation, Muslims included,

 8     those who declared themselves as Yugoslavs as well, they all voted in the

 9     referendum, and there is information to that effect in Ilidza.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             Can this document be admitted?  MFI'd, rather, because of our

12     reservations, in general, vis-a-vis intercepts.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1181, Your Honours.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Prstojevic, that the Muslim political party

17     establishes crisis staffs at a very early stage, and that even the

18     Presidency, in September 1991, established a crisis staff, and in this

19     way basically handed over all power to Ejub Ganic ?

20        A.   I think that the Crisis Staff of the SDA for Bosnia-Herzegovina

21     was established even before that, Mr. President, around the middle of the

22     year, practically, because the Crisis Staff for Sokolovic Kolonija,

23     Hrasnica -- or, rather, for Ilidza, the Muslim part, was established

24     already in August -- July, August, somewhere around that time.  So these

25     republican and regional crisis staffs must have been established before

Page 13615

 1     that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What about the Serb Crisis Staff in Ilidza; when was

 3     that established?

 4        A.   On the 2nd of January, 1992.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  We have a document about that, so we'll get to that

 6     topic too, but let us distinguish between crisis staffs that belonged to

 7     municipalities and those that belonged to political parties.

 8             Could I now please have 65 ter 10765 [as interpreted].

 9             Chronologically, I am going back to this, because it will be

10     easier for us to show what you know from that time in such a way.

11             10756 would be the 65 ter number.  We have Vogosca, but we need

12     Ilidza.  No, no, the City Board, yes.

13             On this page, in Serbian, do you see that this is the 10th joint

14     session of the City Board and the Executive Board of the

15     Serb Democratic Party?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   It's the 27th of November, 1991.  And there is a reference down

18     here to Mr. Jovo Jovanovic as president, and you identified him as the

19     president a few minutes ago?

20        A.   Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have page 6.  I believe

22     that it's page 6 in English as well.  Maybe it's 5.  Please, could we

23     have a look.  It starts -- oh, it's okay, it seems to be okay.  No, no.

24     In Serbian, keep this one -- both of them.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13616

 1        Q.   Look at the top in Serbian:

 2             "Jovo Jovanovic responded that it was correct that in the

 3     municipality of Stari Grad, the Serb people had no rights and that they

 4     do not take part in executive power, and that there is out-voting in

 5     Parliament.  However, all of that is coming to the fore in other

 6     municipalities as well, where we are minority people, such as Hadzici,

 7     Novi Grad, Trnovo and so on, because the other parties in the coalitions

 8     out-voted the Serb representatives in the Parliament and in the executive

 9     government and made the decisions instead of them."

10             Because of this, he stated:

11             "Very soon, regionalisation will be carried out, and in areas

12     where the Serb majority and places were Serbs were owners of real estate,

13     Serb organs of government will be formed."

14             Is this in line with your own experience about how the Serb

15     people fared after this government was formed, after these first

16     elections?

17        A.   Well, you see, I was supposed to participate in this session of

18     the City Board because I was a member of the City Board.  I cannot

19     remember whether I was present or not.  However, it is fully correct,

20     what Mr. Jovo Jovanovic is saying here at the top of the page.  That is

21     the truth, and nothing but the truth.  In part, this goes for Ilidza as

22     well.  Efforts will be made to out-vote us, especially in the

23     Executive Board, where I was a member, too; in the municipal government,

24     that is.  If the Croats were to go hand in hand with the Muslims, we

25     would regularly be out-voted.  However, we were fortunate enough, in so

Page 13617

 1     much as that the Croats did not always want to go hand in hand with the

 2     Muslims.  But these two first points made here in this text are the

 3     truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we please have the next page in Serbian, and in English we

 6     can keep this page.  You can just scroll down a bit.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   "Jovo Jovanovic said that the SDA, itself, was facing problems

 9     with Hadzibajric and other extremists in the SDA.  Jovo Jovanovic made

10     the proposal that full assistance should be given to the construction of

11     the first church in the city of Sarajevo, on Veljine, by both the

12     municipal boards, by engaging --" and here it says "decision."  That is

13     to say, the construction of the first Orthodox Church in Veljine is given

14     assistance of 50.000 dinars.

15             Is this to say this was the first Serbian Orthodox Church that

16     was built in Sarajevo since the end of the Second World War?

17        A.   Well, basically, the construction started before the war.  And it

18     is in the territory of the municipality of Novi Grad, and during the war,

19     it was in the territory of the municipality of Ilidza.  I am quite

20     familiar with the problems that were involved in getting permission for

21     this church.  Perhaps it's a kilometre and a half away from my house.

22     There were so many obstructions that were placed before it by the

23     Communist government.  As a matter of fact, the railways of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina -- and I was among the 7.000 employees there at the

25     time, I was the number-three man.  The priest asked me to get a document

Page 13618

 1     from him -- for him certifying that no railroad would go through that

 2     area where that location is, and I managed to get that document for him.

 3             So this is the first church whose construction started between

 4     the two wars, between 1945 and 1992.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that this Hadzibajric, who Jovo calls

 6     an extremist, is a person with whom the Muslims have problems as well,

 7     was the president of the municipality of Stari Grad, where the Serbs had

 8     no rights?

 9        A.   I know that the Serbs had problems there.  But believe it or not,

10     I do not remember who the president over there was.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1182, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we have 65 ter 17422.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   While we're waiting for that:  The distinguished Mr. Tieger asked

18     you about that speech of mine in Ilidza, whether I was advocating the

19     division of Sarajevo.  That was already the end of the war, 1995.  Do you

20     agree that I am not mentioning division at all there; I am referring to

21     transformation?  If necessary, we can call this document up.

22        A.   The other day, I listened quite carefully to that speech, and

23     this was my understanding:  Because it was obvious that the war was

24     coming to an end, because at this hospital that you visited at the time,

25     you visited part of the Famos factory, then the Zica Hospital, the

Page 13619

 1     radio/television, Ilidza and so on, there were no wounded persons, it was

 2     my understanding that you say at one point in time, If we do not reach

 3     agreement, then it is with pleasure that we are going to do such and such

 4     a thing, as if we would get a present.  I understand that as something

 5     said by way of a joke for the sake of optimism among the people, that

 6     something nice should be said to the people who are present there so that

 7     they could have a bit of a laugh too.  And as far as I can see, they are

 8     accepting what it is that you were explaining there.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  On page 40 of today's transcript, it says that I said

10     that through negotiations, by peaceful means, we shall attain the

11     transformation of Sarajevo into two cities.  Do you remember that the

12     beginning of regionalisation was based -- even before the war, when

13     people thought that there would be no war, it was based on the idea that

14     Serbs should run Serb affairs, and Muslims should run Muslim affairs, and

15     that for all of Bosnia-Herzegovina and for Sarajevo, our position was

16     transformation, not division?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that before the war and even during

19     the negotiations that took place during the course of the war, itself, we

20     mentioned the model of Brussels, where, out of 17 municipalities, each

21     and every one belongs to either the Walloons or the Flemish, but the city

22     is not divided physically, but only in administrative terms?

23        A.   Well, you know, it's hard to remember all of that.  I know that

24     the model of Switzerland was mentioned as well, cantonisation.  And I

25     have to say something else here.

Page 13620

 1             Then and now, the Serbs considered Bosnia-Herzegovina to be their

 2     own state.  That is our state, and we never challenged it, we never

 3     denied it.  And in that state, people were always supposed to live in a

 4     neighbourly way, and everybody was supposed to run their own affairs.

 5     And, of course, it is quite clear that above that, there is state

 6     authority, some kind of joint authority.  The basic model was always, as

 7     far as I know, joint authority, joint government.  And as you go further

 8     down towards the bottom, everything is brought to the ethnic communities,

 9     the Serbs, Muslims and Croats.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please look at what we have on the screen.  I

11     don't know if it's "Wednesday, the 15th of January, 1992."  And in this

12     Gazette of the Serbian People of Bosnia and Herzegovina, there is the

13     Assembly of the Serbian People in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It gives a

14     recommendation on the establishment of municipal assemblies of the

15     Serbian people in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Can you please read the first

16     two paragraphs?  Perhaps you can read them out loud, because I don't know

17     why there is no translation.  Perhaps there is a translation.  Can you

18     please read them out loud?

19        A.   I can see the "21st of November, 1991" here, "The president of

20     the Assembly of the Serbian People in BiH," "Momcilo Krajisnik,"

21     "Master's degree."  What am I supposed to read?

22        Q.   Well, yes, there is a translation.  This belongs to the

23     Prosecution.

24        A.   Well, I can read:

25             "On the basis of the proposal of the Executive Board --"

Page 13621

 1             Or should I just read the conclusions?

 2        Q.   Just the first two paragraphs.

 3        A.   "Full support is given to the Yugoslav People's Army in the

 4     defence of the joint state of Yugoslavia."

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter could not catch the question.

 6     The speakers were overlapping.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It's impossible to follow at all.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We overlap, yes.

 9             I believe the Prosecution has a translation, because they

10     obtained this document.

11             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Unless it has been already translated, it's for

12     you to translate this document.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

14        Q.   Can I just ask for the recommendation, where it says:  "The

15     Deputies' Clubs recommended"?  Can you do that?

16        A.   Yes, I could do that.  But my microphone is not adjusted very

17     well, so then I'm speaking completely off microphone.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Please put a pause before you start answering the

19     question.  So when you start answering the question, while we are hearing

20     the interpretation, it's impossible for the interpreters to interpret

21     what you're saying.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Then I am going try to

24     do it so that we can do it more quickly.

25              The Deputies' Clubs of the Serbian Democratic Party in the

Page 13622

 1     municipal assemblies of Bosnia-Herzegovina, where decisions are imposed

 2     by over-voting that are counter to the interests of the Serbian people,

 3     are asked to contribute or to adopt decisions on the founding of

 4     municipal assemblies of the Serbian people.  The municipal assemblies of

 5     the Serbian people would comprise deputies of the

 6     Serbian Democratic Party and other deputies of Serb ethnicity who

 7     state -- who give a statement on joining the Assembly.

 8             Now I'm going to put a question to you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But before that:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Through quite extraordinary efforts that continue to

11     astound me, Mr. Reid has found a translation.  I reiterate, these things

12     can be found in advance by the Defence, but if it's helpful now, he can

13     call that up.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             All right.  In the meantime, what is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   The first question about this, Mr. Prstojevic, is this:  Do you

18     agree that the Serbs first declared some bodies which would not

19     function until it turned out that there was no other option?  Does this

20     recommendation mean that some -- the existence of some Serbian Assembly

21     should just be proclaimed, but that the work in the joint body still

22     continues?

23        A.   That is absolutely correct.

24        Q.   And was that the case with your own Crisis Staff, for example,

25     which was just declared in early 1991 and became active only when the war

Page 13623

 1     broke out as the Municipal Staff?

 2        A.   Yes, that is absolutely correct too.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that the distribution of municipalities in Sarajevo

 4     was different and that Rajlovac was a Serbian Assembly -- a Serbian

 5     municipality up until 1957?

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct, but other Serb neighbourhoods also were

 7     municipalities up until that year; for example, Blazuj, which was part of

 8     Ilidza and which was a local community within Ilidza, used to be a

 9     municipality.  I'm aware of this also in the case of Rajlovac.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that from that year or those years, a

11     sort of engineering began whereby Serbian municipalities were merged in

12     order to turn them from majority ones into minority ones?  For example,

13     the Hadzici municipality, which was a Serbian majority, was joined on to

14     the Tarcin and other communities, thereby creating a Serb minority?

15        A.   This is correct in the case of Tarcin and Hadzici.  I know very

16     well the case of Hadzici, because in 1972 to 1975, I lived in that

17     municipality and my wife hails from there.  Centar is exclusively a

18     Serbian area, but then by creating new parts of the new municipality, it

19     became a majority Muslim-populated area.

20             In the town of Sarajevo, there is a striking example with the

21     formation of the municipality Novi Grad, which will then take parts of

22     the Novo Sarajevo and the Ilidza municipalities, and in that way create a

23     change in the ethnic composition of the Ilidza municipality as well as

24     the Novo Sarajevo municipality.  In that municipality, there were 37.000

25     Serbs, which means that that is the highest number of Serbs in any

Page 13624

 1     municipality, but it was incorporated in such a way that Serbs made up

 2     only 30 per cent of the overall population of that municipality.  They

 3     will experience catastrophe in the war, and we will get 3.000 Serbs in

 4     the municipality of Rajlovac who ended up under our control, under our

 5     authority.  And then we would also have some parts that Ilidza took under

 6     its wing immediately at the beginning of the war, i.e., Nedzarici, where

 7     the Serbs were an absolute majority, and then later -- or, actually,

 8     immediately parts of Dobrinja, the people who had been living there for

 9     ages, whose land was used to create the municipality of Dobrinja --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness did not complete his thought.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now find the translation in

12     the e-court for the Trial Chamber for this document, for this excerpt

13     from the "Official Gazette"?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Since you can read the transcript, Mr. Karadzic,

15     check whether the -- what the witness has said has been fully translated.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think so.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Was it your point that these traditional Serbian areas were used

19     to erect new settlements for the purpose of changing the ethnic

20     composition?

21        A.   Yes, but also of new territorial organisations.  That was also an

22     objective.  And that is why I referred to the creation of the

23     municipality of Novi Grad - I don't know which year that occurred - where

24     the ethnic structure in Ilidza and Novo Sarajevo was disrupted.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 13625

 1             Can we look at the following page, please.  Yes, this is the

 2     recommendation.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Does this recommendation mean that something can happen, but does

 5     not necessarily have to?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can we admit this document?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1183, Your Honours.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12        Q.   I am now going to ask you about the so-called Variant A and B

13     paper.

14             Can we call up the first page.  It wouldn't be a bad idea.  This

15     is 65 ter 00219.

16             Do you agree or do you remember that all official documents of

17     the Serbian Democratic Party must and did have a register number at the

18     top, as well as the date, and on the last page they bore the signature of

19     the authorised person?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we bring back the first page,

22     please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is it correct that there is no number here, this register number?

25     There is a date at the bottom, but this document does not have a record

Page 13626

 1     number, register number?

 2        A.   That is correct, it doesn't have one.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the one page but

 4     last.  Then the last page, then, because obviously something is attached

 5     here that I am counting as a page.  The last page, please.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you notice that it states, on the first page "The Main Board,"

 8     but at the end it states "Crisis Staff," and there is no signature or any

 9     particular name given?

10        A.   Yes, absolutely, there is a difference.

11        Q.   Does this look to you like some draft or some proposal that would

12     need to be completed by reviewing it and adopting it?

13        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't know what it looks like, because

14     these are completely two different bodies involved.  At the heading,

15     there is one body.  At the end, where the signatory should be, is another

16     body.  So it's inconceivable that this can happen on any kind of

17     normative act of any party or of any institution.

18        Q.   Thank you.  As a reserve officer, do you recognise elements of

19     military intelligence, of military mentality, where a crisis staff

20     commander is referred to and so on and so forth?  Is this something that

21     is completely different to you from everything that the Serbian

22     Democratic Party stood for?

23        A.   Yes, I already said that a number of times.  When I was a

24     director at my enterprise, there was a committee for ONO and DSZ, so --

25     All People's Defence and Social Self-Protection.  These bodies existed in

Page 13627

 1     municipalities and also in towns, so the number-one person would always

 2     be the director or the president of the municipality.  I always would see

 3     the same thing there.  During socialism, a committee would be referred

 4     to, and here we have the Crisis Staff, and everything was done on the

 5     basis of a book.  I have it here with me.  It's a wartime book that is

 6     riddled with bullets.  I can bring it tomorrow.  And it deals with the

 7     strategy of All People's Defence and Social Self-Protection.  This is a

 8     red book, and it regulates all of these matters.  This is my book that I

 9     had before the war and during the war.

10             I don't know if I was clear enough.

11        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to say that this text was adopted by a

12     group of frightened officers, who saw that they could come to harm

13     because they had become hated, and it was distributed without any kind of

14     review or adoption, would that sound reasonable to you?

15        A.   Yes, but I'm going to remind you about something here.

16             That Muslim publication that I mentioned - I remember the date

17     now too - it's from the 3rd of March, 1992, it mentioned all JNA officers

18     which did not sign loyalty to the Muslim leadership through any channel

19     as enemies of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  And I agree with you completely,

20     and I said on a number of occasions that this document was not reviewed

21     at the meeting which I attended.  There was no mention of it at all, but

22     somebody gave it to someone of those people from Ilidza who were there.

23     Had they given it to me, I would have known about it.  But in time, it

24     also came into my hands.

25        Q.   Since you were not at that meeting, you cannot know the number.

Page 13628

 1     But would it be acceptable to you that members of the Main Staff, the

 2     Executive Staff, and representatives of a number of municipalities were

 3     there, meaning that there were several hundred people there?

 4        A.   President, I was at that meeting.  And do you know how I know

 5     that there were more than 500 people there?  It was an enormous gathering

 6     if five people were present from Ilidza, and in Bosnia and Herzegovina

 7     there are 109 municipalities, including the town of Sarajevo, plus

 8     guests, plus many other municipalities that have over 200.000

 9     inhabitants, it would mean that this was a gathering of more than 500

10     people, based on what I know.  So all the elements indicate that there

11     had to have been at least that many, if not more.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Even though the drafters of this paper meant it to be

13     strictly confidential, would you agree that it was not treated as a

14     confidential document and that it was simply disseminated and circulated

15     if it could be of use to anyone, and that it was not treated as

16     confidential material anywhere?

17        A.   Absolutely, it was not, because "Slobodna Bosna," the

18     publication, would publish this document immediately right before the war

19     in its entirety.  And I'm not ruling out the possibility that we could

20     find that issue somewhere in archives or somewhere with one of our

21     people, but I remember very well that "Slobodna Bosna" published this

22     instruction in its entirety.  And I said that to the investigators right

23     away during the first interview, and they agreed with me.  It's just a

24     question of when this was.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 13629

 1             Do we have time for one more question before we finish?  This

 2     is -- now, can we look at document 65 ter 990, and we should have a

 3     translation of that as well.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This was published in public on the 11th of January, 1992, before

 6     the war.  And in the second paragraph here, it states:

 7             "The new Serbian Assembly will at first act in a

 8     preventive-political manner, and in the case of recognising the

 9     independence of our republic by the European Community, it will begin to

10     act legitimately, legally."

11             This newspaper announces the formation of the Serbian

12     municipality of Ilidza, and in this decision, P2408, it says that you

13     continue to work in your joint organs.  And the journalists here

14     interpret that as being a purely declarative matter, as a mere political

15     declaration, and that the municipality would begin to function if the

16     circumstances allow; is that correct?

17        A.   As soon as the Municipal Assembly was established, we held a

18     press conference.  And I think this is a text from "Oslobodjenje," which

19     was not favourable for our side, and journalists always add something of

20     their own.

21             But one thing is correct, however.  I, as the president of the

22     SDS, and I'm sure this is something that was done by

23     Mr. Radovan Knezevic, who was the president of the Executive Board,

24     together with Mahmutovic, who was the president of the municipality, all

25     of us together, with coffee, explained what this was all about.

Page 13630

 1             The Muslim leadership, the functionaries in the municipality,

 2     didn't have anything against this because they already had that from a

 3     while before, and we continued to work together until the last day, until

 4     the last work day in the municipality of Ilidza.  That day was the 3rd of

 5     April, 1992.  And precisely at 1330 hours, at the invitation of the

 6     president of the municipality and the president of the SDA party,

 7     Mr. Mahmutovic, drank coffee with him, during which Mr. Momcilo Ceklic,

 8     the secretary of the municipality was present, as well as the

 9     vice-president of the Executive Board, Mr. Nurija Omerbasic.  This means

10     two Serbs and two Muslims.  And we congratulated the Muslims, the Bajram

11     holiday that was going to take place the next day.

12             I would like to emphasise that we worked in a very collegial

13     manner with our Muslim and Croat colleagues; that as people, we got on

14     well together, we understood each other.  But the difficulties would

15     always come from outside, from the top of the Muslim leadership, or from

16     extremists and fundamentalists from some local communes where the Muslim

17     population was in a majority.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to read just one more sentence.  It states

19     here in the middle column:

20             "In addition to that, it was established that planned migrations

21     into certain local communes, especially of Muslims from Sandzak, largely

22     changed the ethnic make-up of the population to the detriment of the

23     Serbs."

24             My question, Mr. Prstojevic:  Is this proof that there was no

25     secrecy in your political organisation in Ilidza?

Page 13631

 1        A.   That is absolutely correct.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             Can this be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Prstojevic, did you say this is an article in

 5     "Oslobodjenje"?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think it may have been published

 7     in "Oslobodjenje," but that's not the most important thing there.

 8     However, it is quite true that immediately after the establishment --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that if you were to look at

10     the entire page, you would see that it is "Javnost," and the news was

11     carried in "Oslobodjenje" as well.  I think we have it somewhere.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can check that.  I can check that

13     in my own documentation.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We see "Javnost" in the upper left part.

15             We'll admit this.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1184, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, has the previous document, dealing with

18     Variants A and B, been admitted?  It's 65 ter 219.

19             MR. TIEGER:  There are --

20             JUDGE KWON:  There are other documents similar in topic?

21             MR. TIEGER:  Yeah, there are different copies of that that have

22     been distributed, and a number of them -- at least a couple of them are

23     in evidence already.  This one, I couldn't say off-hand.  I will check.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I take it, Mr. Karadzic, you are not tendering that

25     document.

Page 13632

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am convinced that the identical

 2     text does exist.  I don't know whether it is the same, in terms of the

 3     layout, the design, but I am sure that the Prosecution has already

 4     tendered the identical text.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             We'll adjourn for today, and we resume tomorrow at 9.00.

 7             At that time, Mr. Prstojevic, could you try to be simple in

 8     answering the questions.  Thank you.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10                           [The witness stands down]

11                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.36 p.m.,

12                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 18th day of March,

13                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.