Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 13879

 1                           Tuesday, 31 May 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Good morning, everybody.

 6             First of all, I have to say that we're sitting under the

 7     provisions of Rule 15 bis this morning, in the absence of Judge Kwon, who

 8     is unavoidably detained.  But before we start with the testimony of

 9     Radomir Kezunovic, there are four procedural matters that I would like to

10     deal with.  The first is an oral decision on the admission of documents

11     bearing 65 ter 11701.  The first, it's an oral decision.

12             On the 1st of November, 2010, the accused used page 86 of the

13     Prosecution document with Rule 65 ter 11701 during his cross-examination

14     of Prosecution Witness Anton Brennskag.  This page, which is at

15     transcript 8770, line 3, forms part of the report prepared by Prosecution

16     Witness Robert Donia, was admitted into evidence by the Chamber, and

17     should have been assigned an Exhibit number, D855 at the time (transcript

18     page 8771, line 8).  However, due to an oversight, it was never assigned

19     an exhibit number and consequently does not appear as admitted in

20     e-court.

21             Given that the Exhibit D855 has been assigned to a different

22     document, the Chamber hereby instructs the Registry to assign the next

23     available defence exhibit number to page 86 of the document with

24     Rule 65 ter 11701, and to record that it is admitted into evidence.

25             There is also an addendum to the decision of the accused, 9th of

Page 13880

 1     March, 2011 motion to make oral arguments made available to the public.

 2             On the 4th of May, 2011, the Chamber issued a decision on the

 3     accused's 9th March 2011 motion to make oral arguments available to the

 4     public, in which it ordered the Registry to lift the confidentiality of

 5     the portions of the transcript in which a Rule 70 condition had been

 6     placed on part of Rupert Smith's testimony.

 7             In order to be comprehensive, the Chamber wishes to clarify that

 8     the instruction to lift the confidentiality of the said portion of

 9     Rupert Smith's testimony applies to both the written transcript and to

10     the audio-visual record.

11             There is also a motion to subpoena for interview General Delic

12     and Brigadier Brdjanovic.

13             In relation to the motion to subpoena those individuals, the

14     Criminal Defence Section of Bosnia-Herzegovina has tried to contact both

15     Mr. Delic and Mr. Brdjanovic to communicate the accused's request for an

16     interview.  General Delic was contacted.  However, he refused to be

17     interviewed by the accused or by his legal adviser.  Efforts to contact

18     Brigadier Brdjanovic were unsuccessful.  In a supplemental submission

19     filed on the 11th of April, 2011, the accused stated that he will seek a

20     subpoena for General Delic, but he would file additional information if

21     and when Brigadier Brdjanovic was contacted.

22             Mr. Robinson, is there any update as to that last matter?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, we've had no more contact from

24     the office -- the Defence office in Bosnia, and we would ask that the

25     Chamber issue an order or request to the Government of Bosnia to summon

Page 13881

 1     those individuals.  I believe they'd indicated their capable of receiving

 2     a summons and can arrange contact with them in that way.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

 4             Well, the Chamber will discuss that matter.

 5             The last matter I want to deal with is a motion for subpoena for

 6     interview of Christoph von Bezold.

 7             In the latest confidential correspondence from Germany regarding

 8     this motion, Germany stated that the German national law does not

 9     envisage a court ordering subpoena of a person for an informal interview

10     realised by the legal adviser of the accused.  Germany also states that

11     it is prompted to inform Mr. von Bezold in writing of the accused's

12     request.

13             Now, those are matters which, although they are not in themselves

14     confidential, again, Mr. Robinson, it would be useful for the Chamber to

15     be informed of any further action you may be taking in light of that

16     response from Germany.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

18             We haven't heard anything from Mr. von Bezold, and we would like

19     to be in contact with him directly.  And so if we don't hear anything

20     within the next few days, we planned on asking the German government to

21     give us his contact details so we can determine whether he's willing to

22     be interviewed.  And we can get back to the Chamber on that.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  While you're on your feet, Mr. Robinson, is

24     there anything further you wish to deal with or mention before we proceed

25     to the witness?

Page 13882

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  No, thank you, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

 3             Ms. Edgerton, is this your witness?

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  It is.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Any other matters that the OTP wishes to raise

 6     before we proceed to testimony?

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  No.  Then let the witness be brought in, please.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Honours --

10     with your leave, Your Honours, I would like to express my greatest

11     gratitude to the Trial Chamber and to the Office of the Prosecutor for

12     their efforts invested in visiting Sarajevo and gaining an insight into

13     our geography and the scene where all the developments took place.  Thank

14     you very much.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, your acknowledgment to that is

16     appreciated, Dr. Karadzic.  It was a substantial visit, and I think it

17     was appreciated by everyone who took part in it.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  For the record, 65 ter 11701,

19     which was just admitted by the Trial Chamber, will be assigned

20     Exhibit D1250.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Let the witness take the solemn declaration,

24     please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 13883

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  RADOMIR KEZUNOVIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Can you give the Court your full name for the

 5     record?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Radomir Kezunovic.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Kezunovic, if you would like to sit and make

 8     yourself comfortable.  Then you'll be asked questions first by the Office

 9     of the Prosecutor.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

11                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

12        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kezunovic.  Do you hear me in a language you

13     understand?

14        A.   Good morning.  Yes, I do hear you, and I understand you.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kezunovic, do you recall, in March 2004 and

16     January 2008, giving statements to the Office of the Prosecutor on your

17     observations and experiences during the conflict in Bosnia and

18     Herzegovina?

19        A.   Yes, I do remember.

20        Q.   And is it correct that you gave evidence last year, in July 2010,

21     in the Stanisic and Zupljanin case here before this Tribunal, on those

22     same observations and experiences?

23        A.   Yes, it is correct.

24        Q.   And can you confirm that on 21 May of this year, 2011, you met

25     with me and another member of the Office of the Prosecutor, during which

Page 13884

 1     time we discussed and finalised a statement amalgamating all that

 2     previously-recorded evidence, together with some additions and

 3     clarifications that you wish to make?

 4        A.   Yes, precisely.  So I have that amalgamated statement in front of

 5     me, and I thank you for the opportunity you gave me to review my previous

 6     testimony and to bring some precision into some of the things that I

 7     previously stated.

 8        Q.   Now, apart from some clarifications -- some further

 9     clarifications I think we're going to make here today, if I was to ask

10     you the same questions which gave rise to the information contained in

11     that amalgamated statement of 21 May, would your answers also be the

12     same?

13        A.   Yes, my answers would be absolutely identical as you can see them

14     in the amalgamated statement dated 21st May this year.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, then could I ask that that

16     statement, which is 65 ter 90242, be marked as a Prosecution exhibit,

17     please?

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2526, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

22             I'll now read a summary of that written evidence.

23             Following the multi-party elections in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

24     this witness served as president of the Executive Board of

25     Ilidza Municipality, and from January 1992 until late March or early

Page 13885

 1     April of that year, held the title of president of the Serbian

 2     Municipality of Ilidza.  In this capacity, he also held the post of

 3     president of two successive crisis staffs until he resigned all his

 4     official functions in April or May of 1992, turning his duties and

 5     responsibilities over to Mr. Nedjeljko Prstojevic.

 6             According to the witness, Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik

 7     were the first two men in the SDS and in the Republika Srpska, and kept

 8     this position until the end of the war.  The witness describes the

 9     organisational structure of the SDS party, with specific reference to

10     Ilidza and the administration for the city of Sarajevo.  He gives

11     evidence as to the methods of communication within and between the

12     different levels of the SDS party, again particularly with respect to

13     Ilidza.  Information and instructions were mostly orally transmitted from

14     the top down, either through Mr. Prstojevic, Mr. Velibor Ostojic, or

15     other high-level officials who lived in the area of Ilidza.

16             The witness confirms the proclamation of the Serbian Municipality

17     of Ilidza in January 1992.  He describes the growing tension in the area

18     and the constitution of the two crisis staffs -- two successive crisis

19     staffs I've referred to in and for the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza.

20             The witness describes Ilidza as the last municipality in Sarajevo

21     where hostilities started.  He talks about unrest and tensions in the

22     area from as early as May 1991, and his efforts to avoid conflict by,

23     among other things, encouraging dialogue between the national parties.

24     He discusses his efforts to develop a proposal for the territorial

25     reorganisation of Ilidza Municipality, taking into account not only the

Page 13886

 1     area's ethnic structure, but also its economy and infrastructure.

 2             Prior to the outbreak of conflict, he talks about arming in the

 3     area.  The witness also speaks to the presence of paramilitary forces in

 4     Serbian Ilidza, as well as the situation for civilians in that

 5     municipality during the conflict.

 6             That's the summary of the written evidence, Your Honours.

 7             Pardon me.

 8        Q.   Now, with respect to that statement, Mr. Kezunovic, I'd like to

 9     ask you some questions by way of further clarifications.  And if I'm not

10     mistaken, is that a copy of that amalgamated statement that you have in

11     front of you today?

12        A.   Yes, precisely.  I've already said that.

13        Q.   All right, then.  Perhaps I could do this by way of references to

14     particular paragraphs.

15             At paragraph 16 in that document, there is an incomplete

16     sentence.  Regarding Mr. Prstojevic, who you referred to earlier in the

17     statement, you noted he was in a position to transfer information and

18     organise activities about the SDS party activities at the top level.  And

19     the next sentence, which is the incomplete one, reads:

20             "Sometimes it was Karadzic or Krajisnik's, sometimes Koljevic or

21     Plavsic."

22             Now, I wonder if you're able to complete the thought or to finish

23     that sentence for us.

24        A.   Yes.  When my words were transcribed with regard to the

25     functioning of the party in Ilidza municipality, and the activities of

Page 13887

 1     the party leadership, I mentioned, as one of the possibilities, that the

 2     political information were transferred by Mr. Prstojevic, amongst others,

 3     and he was the one who attended the meetings where all the other persons

 4     that you mentioned in that sentence were present.  And then he would come

 5     to Ilidza and he would inform us what was said, what suggestions were

 6     made, and what the activities of the party had been, and so on and so

 7     forth.  So that was one of the ways we, in Ilidza, were informed about

 8     the activities by the top leaders of the party, and I'm talking about the

 9     year 1991.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, just to go further:  In paragraph 18, we see

11     reference for the first time to the name Jovo Jovanovic from Vogosca, and

12     you referred to him at several times -- several points in your statement.

13     And I'd just like to ask you about this man, if you know whether he was a

14     member of the SDS Main Board as well as the SDS Town Board.

15        A.   Yes.  The late Mr. Jovo Jovanovic, as far as I can remember, I'm

16     sure that he was the president of the City Board of the SDS of the city

17     of Sarajevo.  And as far as I can remember, he was also a member of the

18     Main Board of the SDS at the time.  When I say "at the time," I mean

19     1990, 1991, up to the months of April or May 1992.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now to go on to paragraph 20 of your statement, there

21     you refer, actually, to a media report on a gathering on 6 May 1991, on

22     Novakova Pecina, on Romanija Mountain, that Seselj's men were supposed to

23     have attended.  And I'd like to know:  At that time, did you actually

24     have a chance to see that media report?

25        A.   We are talking about an event which happened on the 6th of May or

Page 13888

 1     the Day of St. George in 1991.  And you say that these were media

 2     reports, but they were not.  At the time, all the media in Sarajevo on

 3     that day, on the 6th of May, and I mean the radio and newspapers, they

 4     reported on a gathering that had taken place on Mount Romanija, in one

 5     part of Mount Romanija, the so-called Novakova Cave.  That was a

 6     gathering, but not of Seselj's men.  That was a gathering connected with

 7     St. George's Day.  It is a traditional gathering of the population of the

 8     Romanija region around Novakova Cave, and that year the gathering was

 9     somewhat more extensive so that Vojislav Seselj and many other people who

10     were politically engaged attended.  I learned about the gathering from

11     the Sarajevo media, but why I mentioned the whole thing was the reaction

12     to the gathering which took place in the city of Sarajevo, and I

13     described that reaction that was the harbinger of future concern and

14     fears in Sarajevo, and especially in Ilidza, because that was the initial

15     demonstration and show of weapons in response to that gathering that had

16     taken place on Mount Romanija.  So this is what I described under bullet

17     point 20 of this amalgamated statement.

18        Q.   Now, you've just said that you didn't actually see a media

19     report, but you knew, as I see from your answer, that Seselj --

20     Vojislav Seselj, among other people, attended that gathering.  How do you

21     know that he attended?

22        A.   Well, as I've already told you, that was the main news on the

23     radio and in newspapers that morning.  The media reported about

24     Mr. Seselj having attended the gathering around Novakova Cave.  That was

25     the top news for all those who were in a position to listen to radio

Page 13889

 1     reports or read newspapers.

 2        Q.   Have you seen any video reports of that gathering?

 3        A.   Yes, I saw a video footage on YouTube over the past five, six, or

 4     seven years.  I subsequently saw a video footage depicting the event that

 5     took place on the 6th of May, 1991, at Novakova Cave.  What I'm saying is

 6     that I saw all those subsequently.  I didn't see any of those on the very

 7     6th of May.  That video footage appeared some five or six years after the

 8     event - in any case, after the war - and that is how I was able to

 9     complement my whole knowledge, or, rather, I was reminded of the event,

10     which was the St. George's Day gathering on the 6th of May, 1991.

11        Q.   Do you know whether Dr. Karadzic attended that gathering?

12        A.   Yes.  Owing to that video footage, I noticed that

13     Dr. Radovan Karadzic also attended that meeting.  I didn't know it in

14     1991.  However, when I saw the footage, I realised that Dr. Karadzic was

15     also there.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

17             Now, Your Honours, with your leave and Dr. Karadzic's agreement,

18     I'd like to play 65 ter 45100.  That was a late-notified exhibit from

19     yesterday afternoon that was discussed with the witness during the

20     proofing on Sunday.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  I noticed that Dr. Karadzic has no objection, so

22     that can be played.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

24             And for the record, we're playing time code 9:21 to 13:36 from

25     65 ter 45100.  It's been synchronised in Sanction, so I would ask my

Page 13890

 1     friends in the booth if they would be able to read from that transcript

 2     for the record, please.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "My brothers and sisters, after half

 5     a century of Communist dictatorship, we have lived to see the day ... the

 6     Serbian national awareness, our pride and dignity, when we have rebuilt

 7     the Serbian accord and unity.  And never again, my brothers and sisters,

 8     shall we allow someone to divide us and rip us apart and to make us

 9     confront each other ...

10             " ... Of the world and our traditional enemies have joined forces

11     against the Serbian people.  They are attacking our women, our children,

12     our elders who are helpless and unarmed.  Our enemies from the West are

13     trying to carry out a new genocide against the Serbian people.  My

14     Serbian brothers and sisters, it is up to us to put an end to this, and

15     our enemies should know that not only shall the current victims be

16     avenged, but we shall make them pay for all the previous ones as well,

17     for they have dared once again to put the Ustasha knife against the

18     Serbian throat.

19             "That's right.

20             "Especially you from the Serbian part of Bosnia, from the

21     heroic Serbian Herzegovina, do not allow no one to separate and divide

22     you.  You have but one political party, the Serbian Democratic Party.

23     You have your leadership, which was the first to prove itself in action,

24     and which has saved the dignity of the all-Serbian brotherhood ...

25             " ... The superior Ustasha forces that had them outnumbered, they

Page 13891

 1     showed them that the Serbian heroism has not died yet.  The Serbian

 2     Chetnik detachments shall be active in all other regions of

 3     Western Serbia as well as in Serbia Krajina, Serbian Slavonia, Baranja,

 4     Western Srem.  We shall not give an inch of the Serbian land.  The

 5     Slovenians can leave Yugoslavia.

 6             "That's right.

 7             "They were never neither our brothers or our friends.  The Croats

 8     can leave too.  They can separate Croatia, but we shall not give them an

 9     inch of the territory east of the Karlobag-Ogulin-Karlovac-Virovitica

10     line.

11             "That's right.

12             " ... glad to celebrate the St. George's Feast and brigand's

13     early-morning gathering.  This year, after only one year, we have changed

14     the ... of Bosnia and Herzegovina.  It is you who have changed it without

15     harming anyone.  It was possible for the Serbs to get to their senses and

16     become Serbs without getting anyone harm ...

17             " ... in the past period, he had to hide his being he had to go

18     to a place where ... This morning, when ... over our celebration cake, it

19     seemed as if he caught old Slavs and gathered them in the woods to

20     introduce them to Christianity again.

21             "I'm not saying that things are great in Serbia.  They should

22     fight to diminish the power of the Socialist Party, but they should

23     fight, as Mr. Seselj said, in a democratic manner, without damaging any

24     of the Serbian interests, basic interests.  Croatia has been militarised,

25     gentlemen.  If any other independent country armed itself to such an

Page 13892

 1     extent, by doubling or even quadrupling its armed forces, the United

 2     Nations would be in session day and night to find out why that is so.

 3     But they are surprised at us ...

 4             "... requests from the Bosnian Krajina for 30 years.  Then we

 5     thought about it for a long time and gave our political consent for this

 6     regionalisation, the goal of which is to economically strengthen all the

 7     Serbian regions and Serbian areas that were neglected and

 8     underprivileged.  Then our partners pointed out one thing to us, that it

 9     also has a great political significance.  Well, fine, if it has a

10     political significance, we will accept the political significance as

11     well."

12             MS. EDGERTON:

13        Q.   Mr. Kezunovic, is that the YouTube video that you saw?

14        A.   Yes, that is the video that I had occasion to see on YouTube.  I

15     don't remember when it was that I saw it the first time, but, in any

16     case, it was after 2002.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

18             Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please, Your Honours?

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2527, Your Honours.

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   Now, also in this same paragraph, you refer to a document dated

23     23 July 1991, which is marked as Defence Exhibit D1178, minutes of an

24     inter-party meeting between the national parties in Ilidza.  Now, this

25     document refers to your appeal to the population in Ilidza to preserve

Page 13893

 1     the common life there, and I wonder if that appeal has any relation to

 2     the unrest you've referred to otherwise in paragraph 20.

 3        A.   Yes, that's right.  I've also -- I've already mentioned it.  It

 4     was a reaction to the news that this St. George's Feast Day had been

 5     held.  All the inhabitants of Ilidza, including me, were witnesses to an

 6     event that scared us all; namely, that a motorcade had been formed of

 7     about 15 or more vehicles.  Most of them were taxis, and coming from

 8     Sarajevo, they passed through Ilidza, across the Ilidza Bridge, and by

 9     the municipality building there was shooting from the windows, volleys of

10     gun-fire, and that was the first shooting in Ilidza.  Since I was

11     president of the Executive Council of Ilidza at the time, I felt it was

12     my duty to react to something like that, this public show of weapons, and

13     I convened the Executive Board, which is the local government of Ilidza,

14     and we made a public statement condemning that and similar attempts to

15     disturb law and order and cause unrest among the population.  That was my

16     first statement of that kind, but not the last.  I used every opportunity

17     I had from that time on, including this one you're asking about,

18     23rd July, at a meeting that included all the parties in power in Ilidza

19     at the time, and I used this opportunity because it was an important

20     meeting of prominent people in Ilidza, and I proposed to make a joint

21     appeal to use the influence of political parties to get things under

22     control again so that the events of 6th May never repeat themselves.

23     That proposal was unanimously accepted, and it was one of my efforts, one

24     of my attempts, something that I considered my duty to do, to act

25     politically to try to prevent things from taking the wrong course, which

Page 13894

 1     eventually they did, unfortunately.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now we'll move on to paragraphs 29 to 31, where you

 3     talk about the ethnic structure in Ilidza municipality.

 4             Now, first, in paragraph 29, you refer to people from Sandzak who

 5     were brought by buses to take part in the census, especially in

 6     Sokolovic Kolonija, and say that as a result you had an abnormal change

 7     in the ethnic structure as compared with 1991.  You said in that

 8     paragraph that percentages of the Muslim population were being

 9     mechanically changed, and then you said -- then you say you had at that

10     time 40.000 illegal structures in the area, built without housing

11     permits.  So I want to ask you a few clarifying questions about that

12     paragraph.

13             First of all, could you clarify, were these 40.000 structures you

14     refer to built in the immediate area of Ilidza municipality or elsewhere?

15        A.   Well, first of all, if you allow me one observation.  It was a

16     very broad question, from the census of Sokolovic Kolonija to the number

17     of illegal structures.  I'll try to answer in sequence.

18             At that time, that is, up to 1992, and for 20 years before, from

19     the 1970s to the 1990s, the city of Sarajevo always had this major

20     problem of illegal building, building of structures without building

21     permits issued by the city or the municipality.  The incidence of that in

22     Sarajevo was very high, and in all 10 city municipalities that number

23     reached 40.000 houses that were built without any design documentation,

24     without any building permits, and they were occupied by people who tried

25     everything to legalise them.  One of the possible ways to legalise such

Page 13895

 1     illegal structures was to take the opportunity of a census, such as the

 2     one in April 1992 [as interpreted].  That was the last census in

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina, by the way.  And during the census, the people would

 4     bring their families from their native places to be registered in places

 5     where they had built those illegal structures.

 6             The most numerous population of these newcomers was from Serbia,

 7     from the Sandzak area, and over those 20 years they had built these

 8     illegal houses, and they tried to register themselves in that place of

 9     residence in 1991 to meet one of the conditions to legalise their

10     buildings.  That's how this settlement in Ilidza came to be, like

11     Sokoljevo in Novi Grad, like Sanac in Novo Sarajevo, like Buljak [phoen].

12             But to come back to Ilidza, such an illegal settlement was

13     Sokolovic Kolonija, and comparing the 1991 census with the 1981 census,

14     we noticed an anomaly in the results, in terms of the ethnic structure of

15     the population.  At that time, we called it a mechanical inflow of

16     population rather than the normal demographic development, so that Ilidza

17     municipality experienced this completely abnormal change in the ethnic

18     structure over those 10 years, which we clearly saw by comparing the 1991

19     census with the 1981 census.

20             How do I know this?  I know this because at the time I was

21     president of the Executive Board of the Ilidza Municipality and,

22     ex officio, I was chairman of that commission in Ilidza whose legal duty

23     it was to carry out the census.

24             I'm sorry if I speak too fast.

25             So it was my formal obligation in my position then to carry out

Page 13896

 1     the census.  And during the census, it was noticed and it was common

 2     knowledge that people from Sokolovic Kolonija brought their families from

 3     Sandzak to participate in the census and be registered, and that resulted

 4     in a drastic and unnatural change in the ethnic structure of Ilidza,

 5     which eventually resulted in all the other consequences that were

 6     negative.

 7             That's a very long answer, but it's also the briefest way I can

 8     describe this situation in the territory of Ilidza.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  It's a very long answer to not only the question I

10     asked, but many that I didn't pose.

11             Before I go on with a further question, I just want to note at

12     page 16, line 18, you refer to the census as being in April 1992.  In

13     fact, that's not correct, is it?  The census was in April 1991.  And, I'm

14     sorry, page 16 of the transcript.

15        A.   1991, certainly.

16        Q.   I'd really like to encourage you, and we've spoken about this

17     before, to try to speak not quite so quickly, Mr. Kezunovic, because

18     sometimes speed of speech is how these misunderstandings occur.

19             In relation to what you've just said, I have a -- as a result of

20     the answer you've just given, I have a question I'd like to ask you,

21     actually.

22             I'm wondering, why would resettlement for economic or any other

23     reason, regardless of whether the houses one settles in were built

24     without building permits, why would resettlement be considered an

25     anomalous, unnatural development, in terms of the ethnic structure of an

Page 13897

 1     area?

 2        A.   You're right.  If we talk about the normal development of

 3     population in any region, including Sarajevo, there's nothing

 4     controversial about that.  But if, over a very short period of time,

 5     there is pronounced resettlement by any ethnic group, single ethnic

 6     group, like it happened in Ilidza, it raised indirect issues.  And in

 7     Ilidza, for local administrations, it caused a whole new set of problems.

 8     I will try to explain why it's unnatural.

 9             Of course, if people of one ethnic group move in, they bring with

10     them their cultural needs, their customs.  And these newcomers, in their

11     new environment, like in Ilidza, tried to practice their own way of life

12     and their customs and traditions, and that raises issues with the

13     traditional original environment.  And we, in Ilidza, with this new

14     changed ethnic structure, faced demands for the building of new places of

15     worship.  And I, as president of the municipal government, was faced with

16     a request for building five or six new places of worship, including

17     mosques.  That's how this changed ethnic structure in Ilidza required to

18     continue their traditions and their way of life, including the building

19     of places of worship which had not been there in Ilidza before, and that

20     was a legal issue that we, as the administration, had to deal with.  And

21     I must say that we did deal with those problems, and in most cases we

22     managed to accommodate the newcomers, including their cultural and

23     religious needs.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a brief intervention in the

25     transcripts.

Page 13898

 1             It's not "including mosques" in that line, but most of the places

 2     of worship that were required to be built were mosques.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Let's move on to paragraph 40 of your statement and a very simple

 5     question.

 6             You talk about a meeting at the Holiday Inn which you attended,

 7     saying Prstojevic was there, Markovic was there, and Bosiljcic was there.

 8     My question is:  Does that refer to -- does that name, Markovic, refer to

 9     Dragan Markovic, who's mentioned in paragraph 46 and further in your

10     statement?

11        A.   Yes, it's the late Dragan Markovic, commander of the Staff of the

12     Territorial Defence of Ilidza Municipality.  And the question is ...?

13        Q.   I've answered [sic] the question, thank you, and you've given me

14     the answer.  Or I've asked you the question, you've provided the answer.

15             And the man you refer to as Bosiljcic, is that the

16     Ljubo Bosiljcic you refer to in paragraph 56?

17        A.   Yes, it's Mr. Ljubo Bosiljcic, deputy to the National Assembly,

18     which is the Parliament of Bosnia and Herzegovina, who became or was

19     elected MP at the first multi-party elections held in Bosnia-Herzegovina

20     on the 24th November 1990.  So he was an MP from Ilidza municipality.

21        Q.   And do you know whether he was also a member of the

22     SDS Main Board?

23        A.   Yes, if I remember well.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to move on a little bit to paragraph 46

25     and following, where there's a discussion about the crisis staffs in

Page 13899

 1     Ilidza.  And it's going to take a while, but I think we'll get to some

 2     clarification in some dates through this.

 3             In paragraph 46, you talk about the formation of a crisis staff

 4     for Ilidza municipality in January 1992, saying that, formally speaking,

 5     you were the head.

 6             And then in paragraph 54, you said that, in fact, there were two

 7     crisis staffs: One constituted in January 1992 as a political organ of

 8     the SDS in Ilidza, succeeded in April 1992 by the Crisis Staff for the

 9     Serbian Municipality of Ilidza.

10             You also said in paragraph 54 that at the very beginning, you

11     were the head of the Crisis Staff for 15 to 20 days, and as a result of

12     your position as the head of the Serbian -- and that was as a result of

13     your position as head of the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza.  You said

14     that after no more than 15 days, you sat with Mr. Prstojevic and told him

15     that the job was his, and then at the end of April or the beginning of

16     May 1992, you formally resigned all your functions.

17             Can you follow all this -- the chain of the discussion so far?

18        A.   Yes.  But if you allow me, I would like to put it in the right

19     chronology.  The beginning was --

20        Q.   Well, if you allow me, actually, maybe I can help you along the

21     way with reference to a couple of documents.  Then we can see if we can

22     get the chronology in place.  Is that all right?

23        A.   All right, thank you.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we have a look --

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I meant the 3rd of January is the

Page 13900

 1     first event.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 3             Could we have a look, please, at P2410, an order on the

 4     implementation of general mobilisation, signed on 6 April 1992 by

 5     Mr. Prstojevic, as president of the Crisis Staff.

 6        Q.   Do you see this document, on the left of the screen in front of

 7     you, in your own language?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Please, can we go to the first page - thank

10     you - in the English.

11        Q.   You've looked at this document in preparation for your testimony

12     here today, have you not?

13        A.   Correct.  Of course, that was the first time I saw these

14     documents, during proofing.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16             If we could just move on to a further document now, D1193.  It's

17     assigned by Mr. Prstojevic on 10 April 1992, setting out the members of

18     the Crisis Staff for the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza.

19        Q.   Do you see those documents in Serbian and in English on the

20     screen in front of you?

21        A.   Yes, I do.

22        Q.   Now, this document of 10 April 1992 sets out the members for the

23     Crisis Staff for the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza, and I note,

24     actually, your name doesn't appear on it.  So now, looking at these

25     documents, I wonder if they help you place in time when you might have

Page 13901

 1     had the conversation with Mr. Prstojevic handing over your functions.

 2        A.   Well, from the 3rd of January, when that Serbian Municipality of

 3     Ilidza was established as a preventive political act, and when I was

 4     elected as the president for that Serbian Ilidza Municipality, on the 3rd

 5     of January also a political crisis staff was also formed, and its task

 6     was to monitor security-related events, and otherwise they did not

 7     operate at all until the beginning of April 1992.  With the formal

 8     establishment of the Crisis Staff, including the members on this list - I

 9     believe it was at an Assembly of the 4th or 5th of April - that

10     Crisis Staff was formalised and it had an official role.  It was

11     established as a part of the official Ilidza Administration.  And this

12     conversation between me and Nedjeljko Prstojevic, when I asked him to

13     allow me to hand over my duties, it was a private conversation between me

14     and him, without any formalities, without any written documents.  He

15     accepted that I would continue to work in my own profession, which is

16     engineering, and he would take over from me the other duties, including

17     the role of the president of the Crisis Staff and my role in the

18     municipality, and he did that.  And these documents before us reflect

19     this first period and the formal establishment of the Crisis Staff which

20     would operate from April onwards and would later take specific decisions

21     and specific actions on the ground.  That's how it worked.

22        Q.   I can go back to the question I asked you.  The question I asked

23     you was, and I'll ask it a slightly different way --

24        A.   Yes, please.

25        Q.   Did those documents, dated 6 and 10 April 1992, both signed by

Page 13902

 1     Mr. Prstojevic, as head of the Crisis Staff, help you in remembering or

 2     dating when you might have handed over your functions?

 3        A.   Well, certainly before this date, it's clear from this signature

 4     that this document from the Crisis Staff goes out under the name of

 5     Mr. Prstojevic.  I cannot remember the exact date, but it was certainly

 6     sometime in mid-March, before these events, and that is why I am not

 7     listed here either as a nominee or a member of that Crisis Staff which

 8     operated without me as of mid-March.

 9        Q.   Now, you've just said that you -- that the Crisis Staff operated

10     without you as of mid-March.  But in light of that, I'd like to go back

11     to a document you referred to in your written evidence.  It's D1199,

12     dated 21 April 1992, and it's a decision of the Crisis Staff of the

13     Serbian Municipality of Ilidza -- pardon me, it's dated 19 April 1992 --

14     in light of the imminent threat of war, and it's signed by

15     Mr. Prstojevic.

16             Now, if I could direct you to the top right-hand corner of this

17     document, there's a notation there that says that the decision was

18     re-examined on 21 April 1992, there was a vote on it, and of those

19     present, 10-9 were in favour and there was one abstention, Kezunovic.  So

20     I wondering how this document and that notation fits in with what you've

21     just said about how the Crisis Staff operated without you as of

22     mid-March.

23        A.   Yes.  Well, look, I was still in Ilidza.  The role of the

24     president of the Crisis Staff was taken over by Mr. Prstojevic.  He was

25     leading that institution, and at that time I was still in Ilidza.  The

Page 13903

 1     Executive Board still worked.  I still participated in it, attended all

 2     its meetings, but not as the chairman of the Crisis Staff but a person

 3     who was part of that local government.  And I attended this meeting, too,

 4     although I had not seen this document before, but I can confirm this.

 5     And even at meetings that I attended informally, not as a member of the

 6     Crisis Staff, I attended as president of the Executive Board.  And I

 7     needed sometimes to get instructions, what to do and how, and at this

 8     meeting I was trying to influence the decisions taken by the Crisis Staff

 9     by opposing, even, some decisions and proposals that did not sound

10     reasonable to me.

11             And you have to bear in mind the context of the events that were

12     going on in April 1992.  It was my opinion that we should continue in our

13     attempts, I mean the attempts of the whole government of Ilidza, to

14     prevent misunderstandings or the beginning of hostilities, and we still

15     expected that an understanding would be reached, in general terms, and we

16     had great hopes in the Cutileiro-Carrington Agreements from Lisbon.  We

17     all expected that this agreement would be implemented and that an end

18     would be put to all the disagreements in Bosnia and Herzegovina.

19             And we all played our roles, including me.  We opposed all the

20     decisions that could have complicated the situation in Ilidza, and this

21     decision of the Crisis Staff was one of those that I believed to be

22     unreasonable.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I just want to try and remind you,

24     Mr. Kezunovic, to stay focused on my questions, because we are under some

25     time constraints.

Page 13904

 1             I'd like to go now to paragraph 69 of your statement.  There, you

 2     referred to a meeting in Ilidza held somewhere around the middle of April

 3     1992, where the discussion was -- the discussion centred on where to

 4     establish the government of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and

 5     Herzegovina.

 6             Now, in that regard, I'd like to refer to a transcript of an

 7     intercepted conversation you reviewed in preparation for your testimony

 8     here today, and that's 65 ter 30682, an intercepted conversation between

 9     Jovo Jovanovic and Maksim Stanisic, both of whom have been referred to in

10     your statement.

11        A.   Stanisic.

12        Q.   And Mr. Jovanovic you've spoken about in your evidence today.

13             Now, could we have 65 ter 30682, please.

14             And while we're waiting for that, perhaps I could ask you:  Did

15     you listen to an audio recording of that conversation in preparation for

16     testifying here today?

17        A.   Yes, I listened to that audio recording yesterday or the day

18     before.

19        Q.   Did you recognise the voices of the speakers?

20        A.   Yes, I recognised the voices of Mr. Jovo Jovanovic and

21     Maksim Stanisic.  They were the interlocutors in that intercepted

22     conversation.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for a moment, Your Honours.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Unless mistaken, the booth

25     have not received this transcript.  Thank you.

Page 13905

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  That's not the conversation.  I'd like 65 ter

 2     30682, and you've got 30862 on the screen.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  And for my friends in the booth, we

 5     won't be playing this intercept, we'll just be referring to the document.

 6     So no need for separate distribution of the transcripts, but thank you

 7     for alerting me.

 8        Q.   How did you recognise their voices?

 9        A.   I recognised their voices because I knew the gentlemen,

10     personally.  I'd had several occasions to meet up with them and talk to

11     them, so I did not have any doubt when I recognised Mr. Jovanovic and

12     Mr. Stanisic's voices.

13        Q.   Now, in this -- for these purposes, we'll just look at the

14     transcript of the conversation.  But without referring to a specific

15     page, perhaps I could ask you this question:  Having reviewed -- having

16     listened to the conversation and reviewed the transcript, does this

17     conversation have any relationship with the meeting described in

18     paragraph 69 of your statement?

19        A.   Yes, I believe that the conversation took place one day after the

20     meeting at Ilidza.  And from this conversation, it transpires from

21     Mr. Jovanovic attended that meeting, and he -- or, rather, Mr. Stanisic

22     attended that meeting and shared his impression with Mr. Jovanovic.  In

23     other words, they are commenting the meeting that had taken place in

24     Ilidza one day before, and the topic of that conversation were the

25     governing bodies of the SDS, where they were going to function, whether

Page 13906

 1     it would be in Pale or whether they would be moved to Ilidza.  In other

 2     words, the immediate cause for that conversation was the meeting that had

 3     taken place at Ilidza.

 4        Q.   Now, if we can go over.  And since you can read English

 5     perfectly, Mr. Kezunovic, I wonder if we can remove the Serbian version

 6     of the transcript from the screen.

 7             If we can go over to page 2 of this transcript, I see

 8     Mr. Stanisic saying, towards the bottom of the page -- sorry, go back to

 9     the preceding page.  My mistake, page 1 of the transcript.

10             Mr. Stanisic says he was at a meeting at Ilidza until midnight

11     the previous day, at the bottom of the page.

12             And now if you move over to page 2, he says:

13             "Everyone was there, including the Crisis Staff of Ilidza.  The

14     big boss held the meeting."

15             And later in the transcript, at page 4, he says Krajisnik was

16     there, Momo Pejic was there, Nadazdin was there and Simovic were there.

17             Does that correspond with your recollection of the attendees at

18     page 69 of your statement?

19        A.   Yes, it does.  Milivoj Nadazdin is the name.  He was the minister

20     of agriculture in the government of the then Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21     Pejic, Simovic, were also member of the government on behalf of the SDS.

22     Mr. Miodrag Simovic was the vice-president of that government as well.

23     And as far as I can remember, there were eight members of the then

24     government present at the meeting, and they were all representatives of

25     the SDS in the then government of Jure Pelivan.  In other words, eight

Page 13907

 1     ministers were present that evening.  In addition to the three you

 2     mentioned, there were others.  I wouldn't mention all of their names; I'm

 3     afraid I might make a mistake.  But there were eight of them present at

 4     that meeting.

 5        Q.   Now, also in this conversation, at pages 4 and 6, Jovo Jovanovic

 6     says:

 7             "I didn't convene the Crisis Staff.  I have no people."

 8             And, further:

 9             "I didn't put this staff of mine into operation.  I practically

10     surrendered.  I'm not doing anything.  I didn't activate you because

11     there was no need," because he practically took over the command and is

12     running the municipality directly.

13             Now, given this, I wonder if you see any relationship between

14     this conversation and the document mentioned in paragraphs 51 and 52 of

15     your statement, 65 ter 08176, listing the membership of the Crisis Staff

16     for Sarajevo, dated 24 December 1991.  And you will recall that document

17     lists --

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   -- Jovo Jovanovic and Stanisic as members.

20        A.   Mico Stanisic.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we please see 65 ter 08176.

22        Q.   Do you see in front of you a document dated 24 December 1991,

23     listing the members of the Crisis Staff for the Serbian Democratic Party

24     for the city of Sarajevo, with Jovo Jovanovic and Maksim Stanisic under

25     numbers 1 and 2 among the members?

Page 13908

 1        A.   Yes, I can see that.

 2        Q.   Now, seeing this document, do you see any relationship between

 3     the intercepted conversation of 19 April and this document?

 4        A.   Well, in this document, you can see that previously we were

 5     talking about the Crisis Staff in the territory of Ilidza, and the

 6     document that we can see in front of us shows the composition of the

 7     Crisis Staff for the city of Sarajevo.  And let me remind you that

 8     Sarajevo had 10 municipalities, and Ilidza was just one of them.  There

 9     was a crisis staff for Sarajevo, just as there were crisis staffs for all

10     the 10 municipalities.  And the intercepted conversation describes the

11     situation or the drastic differences, in terms of the organisation and

12     functioning of the Crisis Staff in Ilidza that is functioning, that

13     pursues activities, it was established, whereas it transpires from

14     Mr. Jovo Jovanovic's statement that the Crisis Staff does not function in

15     Sarajevo at all.  And as we could hear from this conversation,

16     Mr. Jovo Jovanovic says that the Crisis Staff did not pursue any

17     activities, that it couldn't, nor did he intend to launch the activities

18     of the Crisis Staff.  As far as I can remember, the Crisis Staff for the

19     city of Sarajevo actually never took off the ground, never started

20     functioning properly.  So there is a direct link between the intercepted

21     conversation and the document that is currently in front of us on the

22     screen.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Finally, can we please go back to the intercepted

24     conversation -- the transcript of the intercepted conversation, with one

25     last question.  That's 30682.  If we could go to page 8 of the English.

Page 13909

 1     30682, page 8.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kezunovic, about halfway down that page, you see

 3     Mr. Jovanovic saying --

 4        A.   Can this be blown up just a little, please.

 5        Q.   You see Mr. Jovanovic saying, about halfway down that page:

 6             "We ought to negotiate in the town to continue to exist and

 7     function."

 8             And then Maksim Stanisic says, immediately following:

 9             "Let me tell you something.  This is a matter for the republic

10     organs because it's the capital.  But their insistence on the division of

11     Sarajevo and the drawing of maps ..."

12             And I wonder if you have any comment on this last --

13        A.   Yes, of course I do have a comment.  I can see that we have to

14     establish a certain context.

15             Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Jovanovic were the two most prominent people

16     in the city of Sarajevo.  Jovo Jovanovic was the first president of the

17     city Board of the SDS and Mr. Maksim Stanisic, who was the president of

18     the Executive Board of the city of Sarajevo on behalf of the SDS, and the

19     two number-one men, as it were, who were members of the administration

20     and in these institutions of government.  And the party had dilemmas

21     about their own roles and about their own functioning, when it came to

22     the work that they were supposed to do in Sarajevo, and it is very clear

23     from their conversation that their positions were identical to mine, and

24     that was that efforts had to be made to talk with the partners in the

25     government between the parties in order to reach an agreement that would

Page 13910

 1     be put in place while a final solution for Bosnia and Herzegovina and

 2     Sarajevo were being sought.  And when it comes to decision -- divisions

 3     in Sarajevo, we have to note that there were a lot of pressures coming

 4     from the municipalities in Sarajevo because of inter-ethnic conflicts and

 5     the skirmishes that happened on the ground.  They wanted to achieve some

 6     sort of reorganisation or territorial reshaping of Sarajevo, and that's

 7     why Mr. Stanisic says "drawing of the maps."  There were ideas to try and

 8     find solution in that way.  But both Mr. Jovanovic and Mr. Stanisic

 9     thought that that would have been a wrong way, and I agreed with them,

10     which means that we were like-minded at the time.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Could this be marked for further

12     identification, according to the usual practices, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P2528, Your Honours.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, still in relation to paragraph 69 of your

17     statement, you said that in mid-April, the Serb leaders left the Holiday

18     Inn and moved to the Hotel Srbija in Ilidza.  Koljevic was there;

19     Karadzic and Krajisnik came from time to time.  My question is quite

20     simple: If Karadzic and Krajisnik were there from time to time, where

21     were they the rest of the time?

22        A.   I can answer in general terms, from what I remember.

23             Both Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik worked at the Holiday Inn, up

24     to a dramatic event when the hotel was surrounded, and --

25        Q.   Mr. Kezunovic, I've referred you to the paragraph that says:

Page 13911

 1             "In mid-April, the Serb leaders left the Holiday Inn and moved to

 2     the Hotel Srbija in Ilidza.

 3             "... Koljevic was there.  Karadzic and Krajisnik came from time

 4     to time."

 5             Do you know where Karadzic and Krajisnik were the rest of the

 6     time they weren't in Ilidza?

 7        A.   I assume that they were in Pale.  But we're talking about the

 8     meeting that took place on that day, and of course, Mr. Koljevic spent

 9     longer times in Ilidza, where he worked from the Srbija Hotel, and on

10     that day, when that meeting took place, Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik

11     also came.  Mr. Stanisic attended, I attended, and all of us from Ilidza,

12     and that was a huge gathering at which we decided where the Government of

13     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina would be working from then

14     on.

15        Q.   Thank you.  On paragraph 74 of your statement, you said on one

16     occasion in mid-May, you saw paramilitaries coming to Ilidza on buses

17     from Drina, Zvornik.  Apart from that one occasion, do you have any other

18     information on paramilitary forces in the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza?

19        A.   I cannot tell you anything about information.  I can tell you

20     what I experienced with my own eyes.

21             When I abandoned all of my formal positions, I continued living

22     in Ilidza, and at that time Ilidza was a very small municipality and all

23     of us knew each other very well.  When somebody new turned up, we all

24     noticed that.  At that time, people, wearing different uniforms unknown

25     to us appeared in larger numbers.  I'm talking about May and June.

Page 13912

 1     People arrived in Ilidza whom we today call paramilitary formations.  I

 2     don't know what they were called at the time.

 3             Let me share a concrete example.  It was not Drina-Zvornik, but

 4     it was a bus owned by the Drinatrans company from Zvornik, and it carried

 5     uniformed people.  That happened over one weekend.  They spent the entire

 6     weekend there.  They participated in some actions in Ilidza municipality,

 7     I suppose.  What I remember is that those same men got on the same bus

 8     and left Ilidza, but that bus was full of stolen goods; and not only the

 9     bus, but there were also passenger vehicles full of the looted goods that

10     they had stolen in Ilidza.  That was their weekend warfare, as it were.

11     I was not very pleased, and that was not an only example.  There were

12     several occasions when people in uniforms arrived, ostensibly to help the

13     Serbs in Ilidza, but actually why they came was to loot what they could.

14     They actually made use of our war drama in Ilidza to gain their own

15     benefit.

16        Q.   When you say "different uniforms," as you did in one of your

17     answers, what did you mean?  What was different about those uniforms?

18        A.   Actually, they were varied, there were all sorts of uniforms,

19     ranging from the uniforms of the former Territorial Defence, to

20     camouflage uniforms of the JNA, the police uniforms of all shades of blue

21     or white.  They mostly came in groups of 10 to 15 men, and those groups

22     did have identical uniforms, and they had some insignia showing

23     affiliation to one of those paramilitary formations.  These were all

24     characteristics of the initial period in May/June when chaos reigned

25     supreme in Ilidza.

Page 13913

 1             Later on, when the structure of police and the police organs

 2     started being established, and when the Army of Republika Srpska took

 3     over and organised themselves as a military, those paramilitary

 4     formations dwindled in numbers and finally completely disappeared from

 5     our area.

 6        Q.   Can we go back to my question and focus on the uniforms, as I was

 7     doing.  I'll just revert to one of your answers, actually.  You said they

 8     had groups:

 9             "They had some insignia showing some affiliation to one of those

10     paramilitary formations."

11             Do you remember those, in particular?  And if so, what were they?

12        A.   No, unfortunately not.  They were small groups, and they all had

13     insignia, but none of them known to me.  And to be honest, my experiences

14     of seeing them were very short, so I wouldn't be able to remember them.

15     Some of them just wore bands around their sleeves, which allowed them to

16     recognise themselves as belonging to the same group.  So, unfortunately,

17     I wouldn't be able to tell you who they were.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence, please.

19        Q.   Do you remember the presence of a group under the control of a

20     man named Gavrilovic?

21        A.   Yes, I can say that Brne Gavrilovic's name is well known.  I know

22     that a group of Brne Gavrilovic's Chetniks arrived in Ilidza sometime in

23     the summer of 1992, which is beyond the scope of the period to which I'm

24     testifying.  Brne Gavrilovic's group was in Ilidza as of summer 1992.

25     However, from the 15th of May, I did not hold any formal position in

Page 13914

 1     Ilidza, but I can confirm that Mr. Brne Gavrilovic's group was there.

 2        Q.   Now, do you remember, similarly, the names of any other

 3     commanders of these groups that you've been speaking about?

 4        A.   Well, I can say that at that time, I didn't know any of the

 5     names.  I only saw those groups of people coming and going and passing

 6     through.  Later on, subsequently, I learned who they were.  I didn't know

 7     at the time, but later on, in conversations, in following trials, in

 8     talking to people in Ilidza, I learned their names were Legija - he was

 9     there with a group - and then there was Bokan.  Again, I don't know his

10     full name, and he was there with his group for a short period of time.

11     They would arrive for weekends or they would spend seven or ten days in

12     Ilidza.  In general terms, Seselj's men would come from Zvornik.  They

13     were referred to as Seselj's men.  I don't know whether they were a

14     member of Seselj's party or his formation, but they were popularly known

15     as Seselj's men.  And they also came, they spent a short time in Ilidza,

16     and then they left.  Seselj, himself, also spent some time in Ilidza.  I

17     wasn't there, but Mr. Nedjo Prstojevic, in a conversation, told me that

18     he had spoken with him, that he had met up with him, and that Seselj had

19     also visited Ilidza together with Mr. Tomislav Nikolic.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, I have one last question in your

21     examination-in-chief, and it relates to paragraph 72 of your statement.

22     There, you indicated that civilians in the Serbian municipality of Ilidza

23     had the same as the civilians of Sarajevo.  What do you mean by that?

24        A.   Well, what do you mean by "they had the same"?  What do you mean?

25     If you mean -- oh, right, yes.

Page 13915

 1        Q.   In your statement, you said --

 2        A.   Yes, yes, 72.  Yes, I can answer, yes.

 3             I spent the entire war at Ilidza.  Ilidza was divided into east

 4     and west parts, and in the middle was Hrasnica.  That was under the

 5     control of the Bosniak Muslim forces.  When I was not in the western

 6     part, where I resided, I was in the eastern part, where I worked in the

 7     Famos company, and I witnessed all the war developments that took place

 8     at Ilidza throughout the war, and especially those events that were

 9     described by the victims of the misfortune that we experienced at Ilidza,

10     as its residents.  I, as a resident of Ilidza, can say that in my

11     immediate vicinity, I saw the killings, the sniping, the artillery shells

12     falling all over Ilidza.  A drastic example would be the example of a

13     child, who was my son's friend, a 13-year-old boy, Bojan Stijak, who was

14     killed by a sniper.  My first-door neighbour, Katica, who was a Croat,

15     was injured by a shell that had been launched from Hrasnica.  My

16     acquaintance and friend, Drasko Vukosav, a member of the government, was

17     also a victim of the events in Ilidza.  And my overall assessment was

18     that when it came to the war at Ilidza and the general situation at

19     Ilidza, I compared all that with the situation in Sarajevo that was

20     encircled, and my assessment was that the population of Ilidza was in an

21     identical position, that they were exposed to sniping, artillery fire,

22     and there were a lot of victims and casualties.  I witnessed a lot of

23     those events.  I barely survived some of those events myself.  And the

24     number of victims, in contrast with the small area of Ilidza, which had

25     about 30.000 inhabitants at the time, I can tell you that over a thousand

Page 13916

 1     were killed.  They were elderly, children, women.  In public spaces, they

 2     were killed.  And the overall situation in Ilidza was almost identical to

 3     the situation that prevailed in Sarajevo that was under siege.  And this

 4     is what I tried to describe in paragraph 72.  I tried to describe the

 5     situation at Ilidza and how the citizens of Ilidza, the combatants, the

 6     civilians, how they fared through the war.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have an intervention for the

 8     transcript, if I may.

 9             The witness said that the situation in Sarajevo was something

10     that he knew from the video.  Very important, and it wasn't recorded.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is very important.  I

12     wasn't in Sarajevo at the time.  I was near Sarajevo, about a hundred

13     metres away from Sarajevo, because there was a border, as it were,

14     between Sarajevo and Ilidza.  I can talk about Sarajevo only based on

15     what I heard and saw in the media.  Apart from that, I can say that I

16     personally survived --

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour --

18             THE WITNESS:  [Interpretation] I didn't say video, I said media.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, the witness is continuing to answer the

20     question that you asked, but -- and is now, as it were, making the

21     addition as to the video which was interjected, and I think properly

22     interjected by Dr. Karadzic, because it didn't appear in the transcript.

23             Was that the end of your questions?

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, thank you.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Kezunovic, that's the end of the questions

Page 13917

 1     of the Office of the Prosecutor.  We're now going to turn to the

 2     cross-examination from Dr. Karadzic, but we're going to do that after the

 3     break which we will take between now and 11.00.

 4             But can I ask you this -- to do this:  There are time

 5     constraints.  It's not a criticism, but you are plainly a voluble witness

 6     who -- it's plain that you're an intelligent and thoughtful man, but you

 7     must, please, try, first of all, to answer the actual question which has

 8     been asked with as much exactitude as possible and, secondly, to be as

 9     concise as an accurate answer allows.  Dr. Karadzic is also under time

10     constraints, and it's only fair to him to do that.

11             So until 11.00, please.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Actually, Your Honour, if I may, there's a short

16     matter of a small number of associated exhibits to deal with that I

17     omitted to deal with before we broke.  And those associated exhibits

18     referred to in the amalgamated statement, that I would now move to tender

19     as Prosecution exhibits, have 65 ter numbers 16198, 10825, 16200, 08176,

20     17237, and the last, 30607, which I would be asked to be marked for

21     identification as it is a transcript of an intercepted telephone

22     conversation.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Robinson.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  We have no objection, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  So be it.  Then, those will be so admitted.

Page 13918

 1     Thank you.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, for the record, they will be

 4     Exhibit P2529 through P2533.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning to everyone.

 7                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Kezunovic.  Right at the outset, I want to

10     express my gratitude to you for meeting with the Defence, so I hope that

11     these three hours will enable us to shed light on the greatest part of

12     your testimony, if not all.  Thank you again.

13        A.   You're welcome.

14        Q.   First of all, let me ask you:  Did you provide a supplemental

15     sheet to the Prosecution over the past two days, including 20

16     paragraphs or 20 bullet points?  We discussed it yesterday.

17             Can we call -- can we call 1D3520.

18             Do you recall providing that?

19        A.   Yes.  I spent two days with the Prosecution in proofing, and I

20     just clarified some of my statements given, beginning 2004, to date.  It

21     just clarified what I've already said.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3520 in e-court, please.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is this the statement?

25        A.   As I've said, I haven't seen it.  What I had before me and have

Page 13919

 1     before me still is the amalgamated statement.  I haven't seen this text

 2     before, but I believe it reflects what I've discussed with the

 3     Prosecution over the past two days.

 4        Q.   And in response to questions from the Prosecution, in this

 5     statement you clarified some points from the amalgamated statements?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May the Defence offer this document

 8     too?

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  The witness hasn't seen it.  He said two times

10     that he hasn't seen it.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, that does make it rather difficult,

12     Dr. Karadzic.  Hold on to it for the moment.  There may be another way in

13     which you can produce it.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Maybe we could ask the witness to

15     look at the document during the break and authorise it.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I'm concerned, it's all

17     right, I accept it.  It's up to the Court.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             Is this proposal acceptable, that the witness look at the

20     document during the break to see if it reflects, indeed, his positions,

21     and then it could be admitted, perhaps?

22             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, the witness has said he accepts it,

23     without having seen it, which perhaps is a little less than satisfactory.

24     So it would be better if the witness does see the document, and then the

25     determination can be made when he's been able to refresh his memory or

Page 13920

 1     otherwise.

 2             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. Edgerton, any objections to that?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  No, not at all.  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   I want to ask you to clear up a little the tensions in Ilidza in

 7     1990, before the elections and concerning the elections.  Do you agree

 8     that these tensions did not originate in Ilidza, they were just a

 9     reflection of overall tensions in Yugoslavia that arose with the

10     appearance of new political forces in Slovenia and Croatia, and the first

11     indications that Yugoslavia might be broken up?

12        A.   I can hardly connect Ilidza and the events in Ilidza with the

13     global level of political events in Yugoslavia at the time.  What is

14     specific to Ilidza and what I can discuss is an analogy -- a parallel

15     between Ilidza and the Yugoslavia as it was then in the 1990s.  And this

16     similarity lies in the fact that Bosnia was Yugoslavia, in a nutshell,

17     and Sarajevo was again a nutshell of Yugoslavia at a lower level, and

18     Ilidza was, in terms of its structure, very consistent with the structure

19     of 1990s Yugoslavia.  So all the disagreements that existed at the time

20     in Yugoslavia were very quickly felt in Ilidza because of its ethnic

21     structure, which reflected the ethnic structure of Bosnia and of

22     Yugoslavia.

23        Q.   I hope you understand I have to make a pause between your answers

24     and my questions to enable the interpreters to do their job.

25             So there was nothing that happened in Ilidza to generate these

Page 13921

 1     tensions.  On the contrary, the tensions in Ilidza were the result of

 2     overall developments in Yugoslavia?

 3        A.   No, I can't remember anything from those times, any single event

 4     that happened in Ilidza or a disagreement that contributed to tensions in

 5     1990.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Esteemed Ms. Edgerton showed a video here which we

 7     won't show again - there's no need - but it shows St. George's Feast

 8     which, in your view, resulted in a protest of taxi-drivers in Ilidza and

 9     the surrounding area.  I'm not sure if it's quite clear to the Chamber.

10     Is it the case that those taxi-drivers were Muslims from Sarajevo who

11     demonstratively passed through Serbian areas?

12        A.   I cannot say what I haven't seen myself.  There was a motorcade

13     of vehicles, and they were taxis.  Who the drivers were, I didn't know,

14     but I heard the shouts from those cars.  I could distinguish what they

15     were saying.  I heard the volleys of gun-fire on the bridge in Ilidza,

16     and all of us who were there think that it was a protest, a demonstration

17     of the Muslim structures in Sarajevo against the presence of

18     Vojislav Seselj at this St. George's Feast Day.

19        Q.   Judging by the shouts, what they were saying, could you identify

20     or determine who they were?

21        A.   Yes.  It was quite clear who was protesting and on whose behalf

22     they were saying, "The Chetniks will not pass," "Sarajevo is a place

23     where there's no room for Chetniks."  Nobody said they were Muslims, but

24     it was quite clear from their words on behalf of which part of Sarajevo

25     they were saying these things.

Page 13922

 1        Q.   Now I'll ask you to answer with a yes or no, if possible.  Can we

 2     agree that Novakova Cave is an old locality mentioned in our epic poetry,

 3     and it's about 70 kilometres from Ilidza?

 4        A.   I am from Ilidza, and I was born not far from that Novakova Cave.

 5     Yes, you're right.  It's actually 40 kilometres.

 6        Q.   Do you agree that that meeting in Novakova Cave was in a

 7     completely uninhabited area, a place normally used for picnics?

 8        A.   Novakova Cave is a rather famous tourist site near Sarajevo where

 9     people go very often and where people traditionally gathered on

10     St. George's Day.

11        Q.   So it was not a populated area?  There were no Muslims who could

12     be offended by that gathering, that holiday?

13        A.   Since I was born not far from Mount Romanija, Novakova Cave is

14     linked to the brigands from Ottoman times in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And as

15     far as nearby villages are concerned, the first village is Careve Vode,

16     where the population is half-half, Serbs and Muslims.  All of them are my

17     neighbours.  But from what I remember of those times, there were no

18     disagreements or protests from that village against the gathering of

19     St. George's Day.

20        Q.   You said it was a tradition.  Let me remind you.  Do you agree

21     that the tradition of early-morning gatherings on St. George's Day is

22     something that exists for centuries, attended by Muslims and Serbs and

23     especially the Roma of all religions?  Is that a century-old holiday or

24     something that we introduced in 1991?

25        A.   You're completely right.  It's a tradition respected by everyone

Page 13923

 1     in Bosnia and Herzegovina, especially the Roma, Serbs and Muslims.  It's

 2     an old tradition.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             Now, could we look at 65 ter 30487 -- sorry, 478, 65 ter 30478,

 5     in e-court.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Do you recall that Mr. Seselj was also in that video, and at that

 8     time he still did not have a party, he only had the Chetnik movement?

 9        A.   I really can't confirm or deny, because at that time I wasn't

10     following these things, and I don't know whether the party of

11     Mr. Vojislav Seselj existed.  As for him being in that video, yes, he was

12     there.  I saw that after the war.

13        Q.   In any case, he wasn't in power in Serbia?

14        A.   Certainly not.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2 of this

16     intercept.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Towards the bottom, in English it straddles pages 3 and 4.  We

19     see Tintor is talking to me, and I say -- I'll read it to you in our

20     language.  Tintor says:

21             "Okay.  I asked him not to deal with this, and Seselj, he was at

22     the Assembly."

23             And Karadzic says:

24             "Yes.  Somebody else should do that from his staff.  These staffs

25     are no good.  They shouldn't be dealing with that.  That's up to the

Page 13924

 1     army."

 2             And then there's some profanity, and then Karadzic says:

 3             "What do Seselj's soldiers have to do with it?  They should go to

 4     the army."

 5             That is in December, before the war in Croatia.

 6        A.   I cannot testify about this, either the transcript or the

 7     conversation.

 8        Q.   But this position that I took, that there should be no troops

 9     except those who are formally part of the army, do you know that it was

10     consistent with my overall position?

11        A.   Yes.  I've heard many of your statements in this context, and

12     it's consistent with what you are saying here.  I've had occasion to hear

13     that in your earlier statements.

14        Q.   Do you agree that it was me and the SDS, as a whole, and even the

15     authorities in which the SDS took part, were always emphatically against

16     any military formations, apart from the army?

17        A.   I said that in my previous answer.  What I heard in your earlier

18     statements is consistent with that.  That's what I recall.  I remember

19     you publicly expressed that position at that time.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Can this document be MFI'd?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  No objection.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, I'm advised that, in fact, it can

Page 13925

 1     be admitted, rather than MFI'd.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, based on the view that there

 3     is a translation in place.  However, based on our position in relation to

 4     the pre-war intercepts having been made on an unlawful basis, we are

 5     seeking that it be admitted as MFI'd only.

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I mean, your position as to that has been

 7     made plain.  The fact -- the difference between MFI'ing and admitting has

 8     no qualitative difference as to how it's taken into account by the

 9     Trial Chamber.  It's only a question of technicality.  So I don't think

10     you're going to lose your position simply by having it admitted now, but

11     it saves it forming part of the enormous bundle of material that would

12     otherwise need further translation.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1251, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             I'd like to clarify something, for the sake of the Chamber and

16     everyone involved, the issue concerning illegal housing developments.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   When you're talking about people moving in from Sandzak, you're

19     referring to what were mostly Muslims coming to Sarajevo to -- I think

20     99 per cent of them were Muslims.

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Can we agree that Sokolovic Kolonija was built in a stretch of

23     Ilidza which was made up of Serbian neighbourhoods?

24        A.   One of the problems that were there, objectively, when it comes

25     to the settling of population in Ilidza, was that this was an area that

Page 13926

 1     traditionally belonged to the Serbs.  However, it is also true that land

 2     was not taken forcibly; it was bought off Serbs by individuals arriving

 3     from Sandzak.  However, the structures built on that land did not have

 4     the requisite building permits, and they did not pay for any of the

 5     infrastructure costs involved, municipal levies normally imposed on that

 6     sort of land, et cetera.  So these were basically illegal structures, and

 7     the problem was that there was a whole lot of them.  It was a large

 8     quantity of such structures, in the context of Ilidza as a small place.

 9        Q.   You mentioned Sanac, Sokoljevo, or that is to say,

10     Sokolovic Kolonija, Buca Potok?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can we agree that all these illegal neighbourhoods emerged in

13     what were traditionally Serb areas or, rather, Serb land?

14        A.   Yes.  The same applies to Sokolovic Kolonija.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that we distinguish in our language

16     between increasing population and natural increase?  When we talk about

17     natural increase, that is through birth, and increase in general is

18     through other deliberate or just natural ways in which it happens?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  The witness answers immediately after Dr. Karadzic

20     finishes his question, and I wonder if he could just be encouraged to

21     make just even a brief pause to allow our colleagues to catch up to

22     ensure we have the most accurate transcript possible.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  When you're both speaking the same

24     language fluently, it's very easy to engage in a conversation, as opposed

25     to a question and answer.  The translators do a great job, but can you

Page 13927

 1     assist them by slowing it down a bit, please, and putting a pause between

 2     questions and answers.  Thank you.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise to all.  I apologise to

 4     the Trial Chamber.  It was an oversight on my part.  It will not happen

 5     again.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   One other question.  Do you agree that there existed three

 8     reasons for the artificial increase in population that were generally

 9     known; the settling of people from Sandzak; the thesis that there were

10     four million Bosniaks and three million of their descendants in Turkey;

11     and, lastly, that the top religious cleric issued the instruction that

12     the Muslims should have at least five children in a family to secure the

13     independence of Bosnia?

14        A.   Yes.  Where you mentioned the settling of people from Sandzak,

15     this was a matter of fact that was obvious for everyone to see.  It had

16     been going on from the 1970s all the way to the 1990s, the beginning of

17     the war.  As for the other issues you mentioned, the possible settlement

18     of Bosniaks from Turkey, yes, I do recall such and other similar

19     statements by Mr. Ceric, the top cleric, that all the Turks -- or that's

20     to say all the individuals who left the Balkans after the Balkan wars in

21     1912, were, in fact, leaving together with many Bosniaks.  These Bosniaks

22     were now Turkish citizens, and the number mentioned at the time was seven

23     million Bosniaks who were citizens of Turkey and who claimed that

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina was their country of origin and their domicile.  And

25     they were announcing the possibility of all these individuals returning,

Page 13928

 1     but nothing has come out of that.  If we look back at the 1990s, all the

 2     way to this day, nothing has been seen of this announced return of

 3     Turkish Bosniaks.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             Can we now call up 65 ter 22142.

 6             This is your statement, dated the 30th of January, 2008.  I'd

 7     like to ask you about your views of the SDS.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   While we're waiting for the document to appear, can I ask you to

10     confirm, if you can, briefly, please, that you had never been a member of

11     the SDS?

12        A.   Yes, that's quite true, but if I can be allowed to explain this

13     in one sentence.

14             People who showed up at my door-step in 1990 to -- asking me to

15     be on the SDS list, had they insisted that I become a member of the SDS,

16     I would have done so.  But there was no such insistence, so it so

17     happened that I never joined the SDS at the time.  And the situation

18     prevailed in that same way to this day.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the individuals who set up the

20     Serbian Democratic Party had for decades been dissidents or some sort of

21     an opposition and that they did not have -- they were not endowed with

22     the abilities to run the government, to run the state, and that was the

23     reason why they placed professionals, people with the requisite expertise

24     who were not members of the party, on their list?

25        A.   Yes, I'm aware of many individuals who, at the time when the SDS

Page 13929

 1     was in the making, and that was in 1990, were invited by the SDS to take

 2     up a number of significant positions, from the municipal all the way up

 3     to the republican level, without having been members of the SDS.  In the

 4     main, these were competent individuals who were able to professionally

 5     carry out the duties they had.

 6        Q.   Is it also true that as you were forming the municipal

 7     government, you asked for a free hand to be able to include in the

 8     Municipal Board people of high qualities, rather than political

 9     suitability?

10        A.   Yes, I did ask that the Executive Board, that is to say the local

11     government, be made up of people that I proposed, who did not necessarily

12     have to be members of the SDS.  At the same time, this was only true of

13     the SDS.  The other two parties, the SDA and HDZ, insisted that only

14     those who were members of their respective parties could have been

15     nominated for any of the functions within the local government.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             Can we now have page 3 of the document, item 11 -- paragraph 11.

18     I'd like to read it out:

19             "The purpose of the Main Board was to carry out the political

20     goals of the party, just like any political party.  The Main Board set

21     policy and fulfilled the intentions stated in the party's documents,

22     expressed as political intentions, intentions with regard to resolving

23     the problems of Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time."

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Will you agree with me that when it came to issues of human

Page 13930

 1     resources, the resolution of problems locally, the local level of the SDS

 2     had full autonomy and freedom in their activity?

 3        A.   Yes, and the illustration I gave was the Executive Board of the

 4     Municipality of Ilidza, where, at my insistence, people who were not

 5     members of any political party were asked to join.  Mr. Salovic [phoen]

 6     and Ms. Snjezana Soldat [phoen] were the individuals who performed

 7     certain duties within the municipality even in the previous period during

 8     the socialist times, and I decided to keep them in their jobs during my

 9     term of office there.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that it was a matter of general

11     knowledge that it is the Main Board that is in charge of running a

12     certain political party, and not an individual?

13        A.   Yes, and I did say as much.  That was my understanding of how the

14     party worked, and that was a fact.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can we now have 65 ter 949, please.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I think that's now P2529, if I'm not mistaken.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  This will make it

19     easier for us.  We don't have to have it admitted.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I'd like you to look at the document, specifically at the

22     preamble, which reads:

23             "It is a well-known general recommendation of the

24     Serbian Democratic Party of BiH that the principal place for the party's

25     activity should be the local board.  Because of the risk that the party's

Page 13931

 1     bureaucratisation and self-congratulatory isolation within a circle of

 2     the party's officials separated from the people, the president from the

 3     SDS issued the following:"  Et cetera.

 4             Can you help the Trial Chamber understand what the local board

 5     and the local commune stand for?  Is that the lowest structure of

 6     organisation that would exist in a village?  Is that the basic structure

 7     which helps a certain neighbourhood resolve its day-to-day problems?

 8        A.   Yes, you're right about that.  The municipality of Ilidza had 19

 9     local communes, Blazuj, Centre of Ilidza, Vojkovici, Hrasnica, Grlica,

10     Kasindol, et cetera.  There were 19 local communes in all, which were

11     basic structures of organisation.  They had their own organs of

12     self-government which saw to it that life in general was running

13     smoothly.  In other words, the local commune was the basic unit of

14     administrative structure of every municipality in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

15     including that of Ilidza.  All the political parties had their own

16     political structure at the level of the local commune so that every party

17     had its local board at the level of the local commune, including the SDS.

18     And in most of these local boards - not all of them, but most of

19     them - had not only the local self-government unit, but also the party

20     local commune.  And then higher up from there, you would have the

21     Municipal Board, and higher up the Town Board, et cetera.  But in that

22     structure, the lowest level of organisation was the local board within a

23     local commune.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You know that the position of the SDS was that that

25     was the place where the party had to pursue its activities, and not

Page 13932

 1     higher up?

 2        A.   Yes.  Well, of course, because that was the level where people

 3     lived, had day-to-day problems, and that was the level where they had to

 4     be -- where it had to be resolved, in the grassroots.  And that was not

 5     only the case in that period, because the local Communist unit of

 6     organisation existed in the previous times as well.

 7        Q.   We don't think that this has been admitted.  Let me ask you this:

 8     Would you say that this is the position on the maxim of "decentralisation

 9     of power"?

10        A.   Yes.  Objectively speaking, the only presentation or the only

11     characteristic of the party's democratic nature was that it functions

12     from the grassroots, from the local communes.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             Has this been admitted?  If so, then we don't have a problem with

15     it.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   And now I would like to draw your attention to the phenomenon of

18     regionalisation.  Can one say that you were more familiar with the idea

19     of administrative or regionalisation of urban areas, especially Sarajevo,

20     than with the creation of regions around Bosnia-Herzegovina?

21        A.   Yes.  I can't talk about Serbian autonomous provinces because I

22     was not involved in those activities.  However, when it comes to the

23     ideas that dealt with the territorial and administrative reconstruction

24     of the city of Sarajevo, I was very much involved in that, so my answer

25     would be yes.

Page 13933

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the prewar appearance -- or,

 2     rather, the administrative appearance of the city of Sarajevo, with 10

 3     municipalities, was not always the same, that there were changes, that

 4     there were municipalities such as, for example, Pazaric, Blazuj,

 5     Rajlovac, and that our administrative reconstruction of Sarajevo would

 6     not have been the first one, but, rather, that such reconstructions had

 7     happened even before that time?

 8        A.   Yes, you are right.  Let's not go far back, but let's say that

 9     after the Second World War, the administrative organisation of the city

10     of Sarajevo relied on the so-called districts, and then that

11     administrative form was abandoned and gave place to another

12     administrative and territorial organisation at the level of the entire

13     Bosnia and Herzegovina, the borders of the administrative units, which

14     were known as municipalities, were changed.  And in practical terms, from

15     the Second World War to the 1990s of the last century, there were

16     constant attempts to reorganise the territory with a view to meet the

17     interests of the grassroots of the local communes.  So this was an

18     ongoing process.  The territorial reorganisation of Sarajevo was an

19     ongoing process.

20        Q.   When it comes to local communes, did they have the constitutional

21     right to vote in referendums on leaving one municipality and joining

22     another municipality?  Did the municipality have the right to join a

23     different association of municipalities by leaving their previous ones?

24        A.   When it comes to the association of municipalities, this was not

25     a new term, this was not a newly-coined term.  That existed during the

Page 13934

 1     socialist times of Bosnia and Herzegovina and it still exists.  Local

 2     communes in the previous period were legal subjects.  They were

 3     organisations that were organised by the population in a smaller area,

 4     and based on the laws of the then Bosnia-Herzegovina, they had the right

 5     to be consulted on any issue that concerned their rights stemming from

 6     that territory, and that included referendums, joining another

 7     municipality, changes in administrative and territorial borders.  What

 8     applied to local communes also applied to municipalities in general.

 9             At the end of the day, I can say, since I was very much involved

10     in local self-government, I can say that this is a process that exists,

11     that is guaranteed by the European Charter on Local Self-government,

12     which guarantees all local communes in all the 47 states of the European

13     Council to have autonomy on decision-making or processes concerning

14     decisions on issues important for that local community.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Maybe the Trial Chamber and the participants in these

16     proceedings are not very clear on the distributive role and nature of

17     socialism.  Let me ask you:  Was it advantageous for a municipality,

18     which held the seats of the regions or the seats of chambers of commerce,

19     which means that the payment institutions were there, does it mean that

20     those places which were regional centres developed much faster than all

21     the other places within that region?

22        A.   Yes, that is correct.

23             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  The witness has already answered the question,

25     because both Dr. Karadzic and the witness are speaking with great speed

Page 13935

 1     and alacrity.  But I was rising, Your Honour, because that's not an

 2     appropriate question for this witness, in any event.

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, it demands a level of expertise which this

 4     witness may or may not have, but, in any event, it may not be an area of

 5     evidence that is going to be very useful.  I speak for myself when I say

 6     that.

 7             Can we move on, gentlemen, and again may I exhort you please to

 8     remember the interpreters.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10        Q.   Just one question, then.  Is it true that, for example, the

11     municipalities that disappeared in Sarajevo, such as Blazuj or Rajlovac,

12     stopped developing, and that that development had long-term consequences

13     on their development?

14        A.   Not only Blazuj and Rajlovac.  It is a fact that was valid

15     throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Where administration was focused in

16     any sense, that municipality developed faster than all the other towns

17     which did not hold centres of administration.  This was a fact that was

18     true of Bosnia and Herzegovina, but not only in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

19     but in all of the former Yugoslavia.

20        Q.   My question was prompted by this:  In the indictment, it is

21     suggested that our intentions on regionalisation or administrative

22     redistribution had a political nature.  It is the Defence case that even

23     before the break-up of Yugoslavia, such measures were governed by

24     economic reasons, because municipalities that lost their position as

25     seats of administrative government lagged in development?

Page 13936

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the accused be kindly

 3     asked to make pauses between questions and answers.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  I was rising for the same reason that my

 5     colleagues in the booth have just spoken up.  It's absolutely impossible

 6     to follow the conversation between these two gentlemen unless they slow

 7     down, for all of us.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I don't have to ask twice.  I shall ask

 9     for a third and, I hope, for the last time.  Put a pause between

10     questions and answers, please, a conscious pause, and please speak more

11     slowly.  It's difficult, I know, to speak at a pace less than one's

12     natural pace of speaking, but it's very important that you do so when

13     it's being interpreted.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I am under the

15     pressure of time, but still I will try to make those pauses.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I would like to ask you this:  As the president of the municipal

18     government, with your colleague, who was the president of the municipal

19     parliament, who was a Muslim, a representative of the SDA, you managed to

20     preserve order in Ilidza, although you were privy to the information that

21     the Muslim community had established a military organisation, the

22     so-called Patriotic League; is that correct?

23        A.   There are two questions in one.  The first one, whether

24     Mr. Mahmutovic and I tried, during the period from February to April

25     1992, to postpone the expressions of conflict in Ilidza, and the answer

Page 13937

 1     to that would be yes, I can confirm this, and I'm sure that

 2     Mr. Mahmutovic can confirm this.  He was the then number-one man in the

 3     then municipality of Ilidza.  He was the president of its parliament.

 4     Mr. Mahmutovic and myself agreed on most things.  We would give ourselves

 5     tasks or the task to preserve Ilidza, to protect it until the final

 6     solution is reached for Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we did that in

 7     co-operation with the then existing police structure in Ilidza, headed by

 8     Edin Lidic and Tomo Kovac.  Our intention was successfully realised.  In

 9     order to do that, there had to be mutual trust between the two of us.  We

10     had to be convinced that we were involved in something that was for the

11     benefit of all our citizens.

12             In order to gain mutual trust, we also had to exchange

13     information on the situation and the events that took place in Ilidza at

14     that time.  That's how I was informed about the second part of your

15     question, and that is that the entire municipality of Ilidza was being

16     armed -- or, rather, that Bosniak Muslims were being armed.  I received

17     information that the Patriotic League had, indeed, been organised, and so

18     on and so forth.

19             So the answer to both parts of your question is yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether the Serb structures

21     in the government were under the pressure of Serbs who felt threatened by

22     the Patriotic League, by the influx of refugees from Croatia, and so on

23     and so forth?  Were people under pressure and distressed, and did they

24     request protection from the bodies of authority?  Did they ask you to

25     allow them to organise themselves in a similar manner?

Page 13938

 1        A.   Yes.  If we go back to the year 1992, to the spring of 1992, and

 2     if we briefly remember the context which saw the end to the war in

 3     Croatia, and if we remember that we had a lot of refugees who had arrived

 4     in Ilidza from Croatia and who wanted to find solution to their problems,

 5     we have to remember that there was an overall atmosphere of fear in

 6     expectation as to what would happen to all of us in Bosnia and

 7     Herzegovina.  I, personally, and all of us in Ilidza, were under pressure

 8     from all the other municipalities and their populations to try and find a

 9     solution to stop the spiral of misfortune that was in place, for the

10     course of events to be turned around, and to avoid the destiny of our

11     neighbours in Croatia.  The pressure was put on us by the general

12     population, who wanted us to find a political solution in order to

13     prevent the happenings that loomed upon us.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would kindly ask you to look at the

15     document known as Variants A and B.  You have already said something

16     about that document in your statement.

17             Could you please tell us whether it is correct that the meeting

18     which took place on the 19th December 1991 was a very big meeting,

19     involving some 400 or 500 people at Holiday Inn Hotel, and that among the

20     attendees were members of the Main Board, the representatives of the

21     government, the presidents of the municipal boards from the entire Bosnia

22     and Herzegovina?  In other words, was that a very public and a very

23     large-scale meeting?

24        A.   Yes, I attended that meeting on the 19th of December, 1991.  It

25     was a large gathering, as you said it yourself.  Anybody who held a

Page 13939

 1     public position on behalf of the SDS from all over Bosnia and Herzegovina

 2     were present at that meeting.  I remember that meeting very well.  I

 3     remember the hall where it took place.  I would say that your figure of

 4     400 attendees is quite an objective figure.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can we agree that this paper was distributed outside

 6     of the agenda of the meeting, that no discussion preceded the adoption of

 7     this document?

 8        A.   Yes.  I've already told you that I remember the meeting very

 9     well.  I remember the topics very well.  I remember individuals who took

10     the floor, for example, Bozidar Vucurevic.  I still remember some of the

11     sentences he uttered on that occasion.  I remember that it was a meeting

12     which analysed the current political situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina in

13     late 1991.  During the course of the meeting, nobody said anything about

14     any variants, either A or B.  Nobody announced during the meeting that

15     materials would be distributed during the meeting, nor, indeed, were

16     materials distributed in written or any other form.  The material under

17     that name, Variant A and B, is something that I saw for the first time

18     during my interview with the OTP in 2004.  However, even before that, in

19     early January 1992, I heard of the existence of such a document.

20     However, I never saw it with my own two eyes before the Prosecutor showed

21     it to me.

22        Q.   It was not imposed on you, as president of the local government,

23     as an obligation or a document that you should act upon, was it?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Later on, you probably saw or read that this paper,

Page 13940

 1     although we're not now discussing who created it, that this paper also

 2     envisaged care for citizens of other ethnic groups and religions and

 3     their inclusion in the administration.  But when you saw that document,

 4     did you think that it had some military wisdom to it, a military effort

 5     to prevent some undesirable developments?  Did you see the old Communist

 6     mentality in that paper?

 7        A.   I believe it would be inappropriate for me to comment on a

 8     document that I saw five or six years after it was created.  I believe it

 9     would be wisdom in hindsight, but, yes, I did have the impression when I

10     saw it that it was driven by a logic of the previous system.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now call a map of Ilidza.

12     It's this binder, ERN 0701-0751.  It's Map 30 in this binder.  I don't

13     know the 65 ter number.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Do we agree, then, that Ilidza municipality did not always look

16     this way, that it looked a bit different when Rajlovac municipality

17     existed?

18        A.   Right.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 19129 is the 65 ter number.  Is

20     that right, Ms. Edgerton?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm just wondering how the witness was able to

22     answer that question when none of us seem to have the map on the screen

23     in front of us.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I believe the witness knows

25     his municipality well.

Page 13941

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  And, frankly, Your Honour, I don't know the 65 ter

 2     number of the map Dr. Karadzic proposes to use, because we weren't

 3     notified he was going to use a map.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  That's the inscrutable workings of providence,

 5     Ms. Edgerton.  But let's have the map on the screen, and the witness can

 6     be asked if his answer accords with the map.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, may I say something?

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Of course.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my previous answer, I didn't

10     comment on a map which I didn't see, but it's a fact that Ilidza

11     municipality changed with time in its administrative borders and outlook.

12     We'll now look at the map and see what it's like.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 19108 is the right number.  I

14     apologise.

15             Now we can see it.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is this a map of Ilidza municipality, and is it a bit elongated

18     like a lizard?

19        A.   It is elongated.  Whether it's lizard-shaped, I wouldn't know.

20     Yes, it's typical.  It stretches quite long, and that's what I spoke

21     about in my previous answers to the Prosecution, the territorial

22     appearance of Ilidza municipality.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we zoom in on the central part,

24     but not too much.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 13942

 1        Q.   And then I would ask you to take a pen that would be activated by

 2     the Usher, and mark for the Trial Chamber predominantly Serb and

 3     predominantly Muslim and predominantly Croat areas.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  At what point in history, Dr. Karadzic?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Current.  I believe this is a

 6     pre-war map.  1991, 1992, early 1992.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hrasnica was traditionally

 8     predominantly Muslim.  That's the area in brown.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Would you put a circle around predominantly Muslim

11     neighbourhoods?

12        A.   [Marks].  Hrasnica and Sokolovic Kolonija.

13        Q.   I'm afraid you also included Otes and Stup.  Can you erase this?

14        A.   I don't know how to erase it.  Is that possible?  Hrasnica is

15     only this part here [indicates].

16        Q.   Can you now focus.  You see Donji Kotorac, Gornji Kotorac,

17     Vojkovici, Sokolovic Kolonija, airport, Ilidza, Stup, Otes?

18        A.   I think it's easier to enumerate.  Sokolovic Kolonija, as I

19     already said [marks].  This part of Ilidza is practically the centre,

20     where the population was very mixed [marks].  Otes and Stup were parts of

21     Ilidza with predominantly Croat population, including Bare, that we see

22     to the north.  As for the rest of Ilidza, Hrasnica, of course, I

23     mentioned it as predominantly Muslim.  And the rest to the right,

24     Vojkovici, Donje Mladice, Kasindol, that's predominantly Serb.  Blazuj is

25     also predominantly Serb.  And territorially speaking, all these areas

Page 13943

 1     were very concentrated.  Osijek was totally Serb, densely concentrated in

 2     one area.

 3        Q.   Can I ask you one thing.  Do you agree that there was talk about

 4     establishing two municipalities, one Serbian and one Muslim, and there

 5     was talk about creating a Croat municipality?  Can you show us what they

 6     would look like?  Were they consistent with the front-line?  Was the

 7     Muslim municipality supposed to include Sokolovic Kolonija, Butmir,

 8     Hrasnica, and Donji Kotorac?

 9        A.   I don't know.  It must have been one of the discussions about

10     territorial divisions.  None of these options was ever finalised, in

11     terms of an agreement.  Those were all possibilities on the table, but

12     they were never completely agreed to by all the three ethnic groups.

13     Those were options proposed by one or another ethnic community, depending

14     on their interests.  One was Serbian, Bosniak, and the third Croat, but

15     all of them boiled down to the proposal that the Bosniak part was to have

16     its seat in Hrasnica, the Croat around Stup, and the Serbian one around

17     Vojkovici and Kasindol.  Those were three areas of Ilidza that were

18     ethnically compact and mostly ethnically balanced.  That was supposed to

19     be the territorial division, but it was never finalised.  There was never

20     a consensus about them, never an agreement, so none of them was ever

21     verified.  Those were a series of ideas about territorial restructuring

22     of Ilidza.

23        Q.   I asked this because I want to see whether this is consistent

24     with territories controlled by Muslims, by Serbs and by Croats,

25     respectively.

Page 13944

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Did Serbs and Croats try to take control of those areas of Ilidza

 3     that were controlled by Muslims?

 4        A.   In the beginning of the war and the beginning of hostilities was

 5     right at the outset, and the separating lines were along these divisions

 6     in Ilidza.  In Stup, we had the centre of HVO, and part of Stup was

 7     controlled by Croatian forces.  Hrasnica, Sokolovic Kolonija and this

 8     part of Butmir, up to the airport, was an area controlled by Bosniak

 9     Muslim forces.  And to the east and west, those separated parts of Ilidza

10     were under the control of Serbian forces, and that was established as a

11     separation line according to those areas.

12        Q.   You don't have to draw that.

13        A.   I believe it's quite clear from this map, these territorial

14     divisions within Ilidza.

15        Q.   I want to ask you now if it is true that one needs to make a

16     distinction between the establishment of the Assembly of the Serbian

17     People in Ilidza and the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza?  Is it the case

18     that the Serbian Assembly in Ilidza was a kind of house, like house of

19     the people, not a national assembly that was established in 1992, early

20     1992, not as a territory; it was functionally like a house of the people,

21     the kind we have now.  Do you agree that there is a distinction between

22     the Assembly of the Serbian People in Ilidza and the Serbian Municipality

23     of Ilidza that was set up later?

24        A.   Yes.  We have already discussed that it was on the 3rd of

25     January, 1992, that the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza, it was a

Page 13945

 1     political act of the Serbian Democratic Party.  It was practically an

 2     institution that never really came to life, never really worked, because

 3     I was president of that assembly and I never convened a single assembly

 4     session.  I never sent out a single invitation, and that assembly never

 5     convened.

 6             However, in the beginning of April, this second assembly was

 7     formed, the one you mentioned.  It began to work in early April, the

 8     beginning of hostilities in Ilidza, and it operated the way you

 9     described.  Those were two different assemblies that worked in completely

10     different ways but also in completely different circumstances.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To clear up the terminology, can we

12     see 65 ter 16200.  There's also a translation.

13             JUDGE MORRISON:  Before we do that, Dr. Karadzic, what do you

14     want in respect of this map?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Nothing, Your Excellency, because

16     nothing is marked on it.  I just wanted to see, the Trial Chamber, what

17     the distribution of neighbourhoods is.  Although you've seen it before,

18     but you can see it here on a map, they are practically clearly defined,

19     except the centre.  All the rest is Muslim or Serb or Croat.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Very well.  By looking at the map and the

21     transcript, that becomes obvious.  There is no need, as you say, to admit

22     the map.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 16200.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  It's now P2531, as I understand it.

Page 13946

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   In the headline, the journalists combined my name and your

 3     surname.  It says on the 11th of January, in the famous tourist spot in

 4     Ilidza municipality, the Assembly of the Serbian People was established.

 5             Now, to clear up the terminology, Assembly of the Serbian People

 6     is distinct from the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza which was created

 7     during the war; correct?

 8        A.   On the eve of the war, I would say, the beginning of April.

 9        Q.   Right.  That's what I wanted to clarify.  "Assembly of the

10     Serbian People" does not mean that authorities have already been elected.

11     If the Council of Serbian People had existed in Ilidza, do you think this

12     assembly would have been formed?

13        A.   It is my conviction that if you speak about the council of the

14     people, it was one of the proposals to overcome the problems in Bosnia

15     and Herzegovina.  And if the council of various peoples had been formed,

16     I believe there would have been no creation of assemblies of the Serbian

17     people anywhere in Bosnia, including Ilidza.

18        Q.   This establishment of the assemblies, just the establishment of

19     the Assembly of the Serbian People, not a Serbian municipality, was this

20     disputed by the Muslims or was it accepted?  Did it meet with their

21     understanding?  Sorry, before that:  Was this done in secret or was it

22     completely in the public domain and published in the media?

23        A.   As we can see from the newspaper, it was no secret, it was not

24     clandestine activity.  It was a very public act.  And the next morning, I

25     personally informed my colleagues in the Ilidza Administration, including

Page 13947

 1     my Muslim colleague Mr. Mahmutovic, that this had happened.  I explained

 2     the context in which it had happened, and we both concluded that it would

 3     be necessary for this to be published.  We agreed about that.  We called

 4     the newspaper "Oslobodjenje," and that's how this was published, as one

 5     of preventive political steps that was to help find a solution for Ilidza

 6     municipality, and we were also hoping to set an example for other areas,

 7     other parts of Bosnia, to confront -- or, rather, prevent the things that

 8     happened later.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have this document,

10     P52534 [as interpreted], admitted.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  It's already been admitted.  I don't quite

12     understand Dr. Karadzic's question.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I'm looking for a new document,

14     actually, P2534.  It was a misinterpretation.  We don't need this

15     document anymore.  It's been admitted.  I just wanted Mr. Kezunovic to

16     make a distinction between the Assembly of the Serbian People and the

17     Serbian Municipality of Ilidza that was established only in April.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Is that correct?  Do you agree with me, there is a distinction?

20     The Serbian Assembly is something like a national council that is written

21     into law nowadays, whereas the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza is

22     something quite different; correct?

23        A.   Yes.  I've already answered your question.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we now look at this new document, and can we see page 4 in

Page 13948

 1     both versions.

 2             Let's first identify who the interlocutors are.  On the 19th of

 3     February, 1992, I talked to my secretary in the Serbian Democratic Party,

 4     Mr. Grkovic.

 5             Can we look at page 4 in both Serbian and English versions.

 6             Okay:  "Did he find Kezunovic?"

 7             We're looking at the lower portion of the text in both Serbian

 8     and English.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Do you agree with me that I am trying to contact you, that I know

11     your family name, but I don't know your first name, which also confirms

12     that we had not had any private contacts before that; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, that is correct.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Everybody can see that.

15             Can we go to the following page.  Actually, 6 in Serbian, 5 in

16     English.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do you agree with me that Mr. Grkovic was aware of your moderate

19     positions and views, and that somebody actually complained about you, and

20     that I say that I don't believe that and that I say that you are always

21     present and that you work well?  Let me ask you, was it a generally-known

22     fact that you were a very moderate person and that you were supported in

23     your moderate views by the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party?

24        A.   I've never seen this transcript -- or, rather, I only saw it

25     recently.  I know Mr. Ljubo Grkovic, and from your conversation with him,

Page 13949

 1     I understand the context.  And as for my activities in Ilidza, I did

 2     everything autonomously, as it were, and in that sense I did not have any

 3     objections coming from you, personally, or the Serbian Democratic Party.

 4     Nobody ever told me that what I was trying to do in Ilidza was wrong,

 5     that those activities were not in keeping with the policy of the SDS.  At

 6     the end of the day, in that sense, I was not the only one.  We can look

 7     at the example of Jovanovic and Maksim Stanisic, and some others as well.

 8     At that time, I was certain that I enjoyed the support of the party for

 9     all my activities.  If that had not been the fact, I'm sure that the

10     reactions would have been different.  I was very active in the

11     municipality, and I did not experience any objections coming from the

12     party.

13        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to ask you about the authorities

14     of municipal bodies; primarily, the president of the municipality.  You

15     were close to him because you were the president of the municipal

16     government.  Can you give us an outline and tell us about the

17     independence of the work of the president of the municipality, in terms

18     of European charters as well as in terms of the tradition of our own

19     self-governing socialism?

20             And the document I would like to call up is 1D3498.

21             And while we are waiting -- 1D3498.

22             Is it true that our municipalities have always functioned in

23     keeping with the European Charter on Local Self-Government, which was

24     adopted in 1985, and that because of the previous self-governing

25     socialism, our municipalities even enjoyed more independence than

Page 13950

 1     envisaged by the European Charter?  It was adopted in 1985.  You

 2     mentioned the charter earlier in your testimony, and that's why I'm

 3     referring to it now.  It was adopted in 1985.

 4        A.   Yes, I described the authorities of the president of the

 5     Municipal Assembly, and those authorities stemmed from his election

 6     legitimacy.  The president of the municipality was elected directly in

 7     municipal elections as the representative of the party that won the

 8     majority of votes in local elections.  The president of the municipality

 9     was also the number-one man in the local community, and he was

10     responsible for the overall activity in that municipality.  There were

11     also executive boards, as the executive bodies of government at the local

12     level, which also had very clearly-defined authorities pursuant to the

13     then Law on the State Administration that was in force in Bosnia and

14     Herzegovina.  The president of the municipality and all bodies of the

15     local community had very well delineated and defined roles.  And when we

16     compare those today with the provisions of the European Charter on Local

17     Self-Government, which was ratified twice in Bosnia and Herzegovina, the

18     first time during the war and the second time after the war, I would say

19     that they were a very close reflection of the provisions of the European

20     Charter, which means they were adopted even at that time during the war.

21     And I can describe that with only one word, the autonomy of local

22     government, when it comes to making decisions on the issues of importance

23     for that community.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Can we go to the following page, and can we look at Article 4.

Page 13951

 1     Can you please throw a glance at that.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  One moment.

 3             Ms. Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Just a request for clarification, because hearing

 5     the witness, I understand him to be referring to municipality

 6     administrations pre-war.  Is that correct?

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, that's what we need to determine.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Because if that's the case, I think this is

 9     completely irrelevant.

10             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask the witness.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   The charter that was adopted in Europe in 1985, when the war

14     started in Bosnia, was it the level of autonomy that our municipalities

15     enjoyed?  Please look at Article 4.  Does this reflect the situation in

16     our municipalities, irrespective of the fact when the charter was

17     ratified?  Do you agree that the former Yugoslavia ratified the charter

18     even before Bosnia-Herzegovina became an independent state?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I don't think that's a question for

20     this witness.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, that's probably true.  But, in any event,

22     I'm not sure this is going to help us very much, in terms of what we need

23     to determine, Dr. Karadzic.  I'd like to think about that over the break,

24     which we're now going to take until 1.00.

25             I just want to deal with one matter that arose earlier, when

Page 13952

 1     there was a discussion as to the admissibility or MFI'ing of D1251.  And

 2     as a result of information I had, I thought it was consistent to admit

 3     it.  I don't think that is accurate, and it was no fault of the advice

 4     which I received.  But we shall MFI D1251, rather than admit it.

 5             1.00.

 6                           --- Recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.03 p.m.

 8             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   First of all, I would like to ask you, Mr. Kezunovic:  Did you

12     have an opportunity to look at this additional information?

13        A.   Yes, I've looked at the additional information, and it is

14     correct.  It reflects my words, it reflects what I said to the OTP.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             Can this be admitted?

17             MS. EDGERTON:  No objection.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  It will be admitted.  Thank you.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1252, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Kezunovic, the Defence has been given only three hours for

23     the cross-examination.  I requested 10 hours.  I am hoping that the

24     Trial Chamber will give me a bit more time, but we have to be efficient.

25             Do you know that the SFRY had adopted the European Charter on the

Page 13953

 1     Local Self-Government?

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, how is that relevant?

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be allowed to explain?

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  If you can explain the relevance, of course.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to confirm

 7     for us or deny and say what were the principles of the work of the

 8     municipalities and what was the relationship between the municipalities

 9     and the central government before the war and after the war started,

10     until the moment when the witness was in power.  This is a European

11     document, and I would like the witness to say whether this document was

12     ever adopted.  The fact that Bosnia and Herzegovina adopted it as an

13     independent state is a different matter, but before that it was adopted

14     by the former state of Yugoslavia, and I would like the witness to

15     confirm that this was, indeed, the way municipalities functioned.  And

16     then we will see the link between central bodies of government and local

17     bodies of government, and whether the local bodies of government were

18     independent, and to what extent.

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, the Judges will just confer on that.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  The Bench will allow the question, but can we do

22     it -- it can be done very expeditiously with "yes" or "no" answers, I

23     suspect.  I'm not putting that into the mouth of the witness.  But if he

24     can do it, one could see how it could very easily be done.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 13954

 1        Q.   My next question:  Do you know that Yugoslavia adopted and

 2     ratified this Charter on Local Self-Government before the war?

 3        A.   I'm not aware of that ratification before the war.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  In Ilidza municipality, were you familiar with this

 5     charter?

 6        A.   Yes, I was familiar with it, and I can only speak on my behalf.

 7     I was familiar with these charters.  And since I was the president of the

 8     Executive Board, somebody who worked at the level of local

 9     self-government on the eve of the war and after the war, when the

10     European Charter was fully applied in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was in a

11     position to compare the position of local self-government from before the

12     war with what was happening after the war, when I was the mayor of

13     East Sarajevo.  And according to my assessment and evaluation, I thought

14     that the position of local self-government in 1991 was fully compatible

15     with the provisions of the European Charter on Local Self-Government.

16     I'm not sure whether the charter was ever ratified in the pre-war

17     Yugoslavia, but that doesn't change the fact.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be adopted?

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  I'm not sure what you mean, Dr. Karadzic.  Do

20     you mean adopt the European Charter on Self-Government?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because Ilidza municipality and all

22     the other municipalities function in compliance with that charter, I

23     wanted it to be admitted into evidence.

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  No objection.

Page 13955

 1             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, I see no alternative but to admit it in

 2     the circumstances, but for the limited purpose of confirming the question

 3     and answer that was given.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1253, Your Honours.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Could the witness tell us something about Article 4?  Was that

 7     the basis for the functioning of the municipalities?  Maybe we can narrow

 8     down the document.

 9             The document number or the exhibit number is 1D3498.  Article 4

10     is on page 2.

11             Please look at the first four articles, and can you tell us

12     whether this was the basis for the functioning of our own local

13     self-government?  Did our local self-government function on these

14     principles?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Can I -- can I just say, Your Honours, the witness

16     has said time and again he can only refer to his own experience in Ilidza

17     municipality, and he said it again with respect to this last question of

18     Dr. Karadzic, yet Dr. Karadzic continues imposing broad-based questions

19     here instead of listening to the witness and being responsive to his

20     answer.  I'd ask he rephrase the question, please.

21             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Dr. Karadzic, you have heard what the

22     witness has said.  He can only refer to his own position and his own

23     locality, so we will assume the question is limited to that.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I?  May I try and answer the

Page 13956

 1     question, please?

 2             Your Honours, I would like to broaden my answer by adding to it

 3     one fact.  My role was as the president of an association of cities and

 4     municipalities of the Republika Srpska.  It is an association which

 5     expresses the interest of all local communes of Republika Srpska, and

 6     that was in 2005 and 2006.  In that role, I was very close and very well

 7     informed about the application of the European Charter on Local

 8     Self-Government, in general, and especially in Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 9     and that's why I'm in a position to be able to assess our own behaviour

10     in 1991 with respect to the provisions that we applied in a later period.

11             In my previous answer, I've already stated that even then in

12     1991, we applied the key provisions of the European Charter.  I've

13     already explained what those were.  I've also explained our autonomy, and

14     that was the standard adopted by the European Charter, which we adhered

15     to in 1991.  I had two different roles at that time, I still do, and

16     I can say that we were autonomous, which is the main provision of the

17     European Charter on Local Self-Government.

18             In answering Mr. Karadzic's question, I would like to say that,

19     yes, these are the provisions of the European Charter on Self-Government,

20     and they reflect exactly what I am talking about.

21        Q.   And now I would like to put some yes/no questions to you.

22             Do you agree that the authorities of a municipality and its

23     bodies were stipulated by the Constitution of Yugoslavia and the Law on

24     Local Self-Government; yes or no?

25             My question was not recorded properly.

Page 13957

 1             Was it stipulated by the Constitution of the SFRY, Article 117,

 2     the Constitution of the SRBiH, the Statute on the Municipality and the

 3     Law on Local Self-Government?  Are these the four documents that

 4     determine the position of the local self-government?

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  These all seem to be things which can be matters

 6     of agreement, if they can be agreed.  And, in any event, they also seem

 7     to me, at least, to be matters for expertise.  I'm not sure how far this

 8     is going to get us, Dr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wouldn't ask anybody who was not

10     exercising the authority, but Mr. Kezunovic was a representative of the

11     local government and knows the principle on which it operated.  I just

12     wanted this question to be answered:  Was it regulated; whom did it

13     report to; who could replace whom?  And then we could move on after these

14     questions are answered.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, it may be simpler, simply, to ask the

16     witness if he was behaving in a way which he considered to be in concert

17     with the Constitution.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Kezunovic, did your municipality function and did you

20     personally operate in compliance with these documents, and do these

21     documents regulate the conduct of local government?

22        A.   May I try to give an answer that is as brief as possible?

23        Q.   All right, please try.  Otherwise, I'm afraid we're going to stay

24     here until tomorrow.

25        A.   Well, the local government was neglected as a local body of

Page 13958

 1     government in Bosnia and Herzegovina generally.  "Local government" tried

 2     to become a constitutional category.  The European Charter says local

 3     governments throughout Europe should be and must be constitutional

 4     categories, because this was not the case in the whole of Europe.  And at

 5     the same time, I'm telling you that in pre-war Yugoslavia, the local

 6     government was a constitutional category at the level of the SFRY, at

 7     level of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In that sense, Yugoslavia was - how can I

 8     put it? - very contemporary in relation to the European Charter

 9     simultaneously.  So in the role that I had, I was very familiar with

10     those rules, and we were very pleased with the position of local

11     government in relation to state governments, and this was something that

12     was guaranteed under the Constitution.

13        Q.   So the president of the government was responsible to the mayor;

14     is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it correct that each elected organ was responsible to the body

17     that elected it and not to some higher body?  Is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the main SDS board, including the

20     president, did not have any power in relation to municipal government,

21     other than moral and political authority?  I am speaking about your

22     municipality now.

23        A.   As far as I know, this option was not available to influence the

24     government in any other manner, in view of the clear legal and

25     constitutional position of self-government.  So the influence could only

Page 13959

 1     be carried out by the elected representative government, including those

 2     at the local level.

 3        Q.   You, as a representative of power, could receive any kind of

 4     directives or instructions from the SDS party as to how you would work

 5     and the manner in which you would operate?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, directly -- or, actually, I'm sure

 7     that, specifically, such instructions from you or from the organ called

 8     the SDS Main Board is something that I do not recall receiving; I,

 9     myself, personally.  So I did not receive any such things directly, no.

10        Q.   Thank you.  I'm waiting for the translation, so that is why I

11     am -- do you agree that all the other autonomous activities and powers,

12     the local government was responsible for social self-protection and

13     territorial defence, which was something under the jurisdiction of the

14     mayor, ex officio?  Is that correct?

15        A.   Yes, that is correct.

16        Q.   Do you agree that the municipality had its own sources of

17     finance, to a degree, and it also received funds from the republican

18     budget in order to be able to finance its own activities?

19        A.   Yes, that was also an element of the European Charter that was

20     applied in the then Bosnia-Herzegovina, the financial aspect, one of the

21     key aspects of the European Charter, the financial independence of local

22     government.

23        Q.   Do you agree that the control by the republican organs mainly

24     came down to the legality and constitutionality of the work of the

25     municipal organs; it did not affect any other aspects of government?

Page 13960

 1        A.   That is correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the republican organs were not able

 3     to replace or call to responsibility the president of the municipality or

 4     any others whom they did not actually elect?

 5        A.   Of course.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the election and the end of the

 7     mandate of stripping of office of the mayor was regulated by the statute

 8     of each individual municipality?

 9        A.   Yes, and the election law.

10        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 21 of your consolidated statement, you

11     speak about the manner in which the SDS functioned.  Did you have in mind

12     the period of 1991 and 1992, when you were actually performing these

13     duties, just after the war broke out and the first month that you were

14     there?

15        A.   Yes, I'm speaking about the relevant period from the 1st of

16     January, 1991, until the 15th of May, 1992.  All that I have said refers

17     to that period.  Nothing I say includes the period before or after that.

18        Q.   Thank you.  We've seen here, in the intercept between

19     Jovo Jovanovic and Maksim Stanisic, that there was a recommendation for

20     people not to go to work.  Is it correct that you, during a mission in

21     order to calm down the situation in Sokolovic Kolonija, were arrested by

22     paramilitary or armed groups who were in that neighbourhood?

23        A.   Yes, but I cannot say that this was an arrest.  I can say that it

24     was a temporary capture that lasted for one night, let's say, from 10.00

25     in the evening to 2.00 a.m.  And I think that is the first capture that

Page 13961

 1     occurred in our territory.  So in that sense, I am the first prisoner in

 2     Sarajevo, for sure.

 3        Q.   Is it correct that this was before the war broke out, and that

 4     armed groups of Muslims appeared in the municipality even before that and

 5     then, and that you, in spite of your immunity, were captured, taken

 6     prisoner, and that this happened before the war?

 7        A.   Yes, much before that.  I'm saying that this happened in the

 8     second half of February, so it was a month and a half before the war

 9     broke out.  There were no combat actions or any other reason for such an

10     action.

11        Q.   First of all, perhaps briefly, can you explain --

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm actually, Your Honours, completely lost as to

14     whether we're talking about the capture being in the month of February or

15     the presence of armed groups being in the month of February.  It's

16     completely incomprehensible.

17             JUDGE MORRISON:  I thought it referred to both, but I may be

18     mistaken.  I thought -- Dr. Karadzic, can you clarify?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will try to ask the witness.  I'm

20     going to be precise.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is it correct that Muslims, armed groups, would appear in the

23     municipal building, take it over or occupy it, and that you spoke with

24     your Muslim counterparts and went to the settlements to calm down the

25     situation, and that on one of such occasions you were captured?  Can you

Page 13962

 1     please tell us whether this is correct, what groups were these, and in

 2     which period did this happen?

 3        A.   Yes, I'm not talking about a lot of events.  I'm talking about

 4     two individual events, one, when armed persons unknown to me waited for

 5     me in the municipal building when I came to work, and after my

 6     intervention they explained that this was their attempt to occupy the

 7     municipal building, but they left in the spirit of co-operation and talks

 8     which I had already had with the mentioned Mr. Mahmutovic.  This is

 9     something that happened once, so we cannot talk about several attempts to

10     occupy the building.  It just happened once.

11             The second attempt or the second incident is the capture which

12     happened during one night in Sokolovic Kolonija, and this is one single

13     incident, and it ended definitely with an agreement between myself and

14     Mr. Mahmutovic, and that regardless of the unpleasant situation that I

15     have found myself in, we found a way to overcome it and to try to wait

16     for some kind of solution or some kind of better solution, not only for

17     us, but for Bosnia-Herzegovina as a whole.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So you had gone to Sokolovic Kolonija in agreement

19     with Muslims -- with the Muslim president of the municipality and his

20     chief of police.  You went with the Serbian chief of police in order to

21     calm down the situation, and this is where you were captured; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.  We -- this was our practice:  We tried to preserve the

24     territory of the Ilidza municipality and tried to prevent

25     misunderstandings.  Unfortunately, this incident that we're talking about

Page 13963

 1     now occurred in such a way that our successful practice until then was

 2     interrupted because it was an event of such a nature.  Even though the

 3     act of my capture was unsuccessful, the result of our talks after that

 4     night was to attempt to postpone misunderstandings in Ilidza as much as

 5     this was possible and as much as it was up to people who were at the head

 6     of the municipal administration and to people who were at the head of the

 7     then police.

 8        Q.   And how did they treat you, those people who captured you?

 9        A.   Well, the details are really not that important, but it was

10     something -- an event where I was mistreated, I was hit, something that

11     happens throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina or anywhere else in a similar

12     situation.  It was a very unpleasant situation for me that night.

13     However, I found strength to overcome it and, in a way, to forget about

14     it, with the goal of trying to postpone any misunderstandings happening

15     in Ilidza.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D3494, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   As opposed to the Assembly of the Serbian People, is it correct

19     that in early May -- from April to early May, the Serbian Municipality of

20     Ilidza and Serbian territory was delineated in the existing municipality

21     of Ilidza; is that correct?  Can you see this document?

22        A.   Yes, I can see the document.  I was not present when the decision

23     was adopted, because by that time already, in a manner of speaking, I was

24     not carrying out my posts -- my duties anymore, not completely.  But I am

25     familiar with the document when the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza was

Page 13964

 1     practically defined.

 2        Q.   Is it correct that only Serbian settlements were part of the

 3     Serbian Municipality of Ilidza in the then municipality of Ilidza, and we

 4     can see that those settlements are listed here?

 5        A.   Well, yes, when we were looking at the map and when I was trying

 6     to describe to the Trial Chamber the territorial compactness and the

 7     ethnic compactness of the municipality of Ilidza, this is something that

 8     is reflected in this decision, the territorial space of the municipality

 9     of Ilidza that was territorially and ethnically compact.

10        Q.   Can we look at the date now --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Would the accused please repeat the date.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Is this the 8th of May?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Where it is said "the Serbian Municipality of

16     Ilidza," is it understood that the Muslims, wherever it was possible,

17     would form their own municipalities, and the Croats at Stup would also

18     form their own municipality, and that this was pursuant to some political

19     agreements and accords?

20        A.   When you say "is this something that is implied," I think that I

21     would hesitate to use that term, because what I tried and what I wanted

22     to achieve at the time was the territorial reorganisation of the then

23     municipality, as well as the town, and what that implied was reaching an

24     agreement or a consensus at the level of the three key important

25     political factors.  No consensus was in existence at the time, and I

Page 13965

 1     assume that similar decisions were being adopted among the Bosniaks in

 2     Hrasnica and the Croats in Hrasnica [as interpreted].  However, there was

 3     no consensus or agreement among the parties about that, unfortunately.

 4        Q.   Is it correct that up until the 22nd of April, there was shooting

 5     and there were skirmishes, and that the first major attack on Ilidza

 6     occurred on the 22nd of April, 1992?

 7             I'm sorry, excuse me.  I would like to tender this document.

 8     Could it be admitted?

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Very well, it will be admitted.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1254, Your Honours.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Page 84, line 13, should

14     state "Croats in Stup."

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Can I repeat the question.  Leave the skirmishes aside.  Were

17     there any skirmishes before the 22nd of April?  Was there any shooting

18     against Ilidza?

19        A.   Yes.  I've already said that, unfortunately, problems in Ilidza

20     started on the day -- on the holiday of Bajram.  That was the 3rd or the

21     4th of April, and there were daily skirmishes until the 22nd, shooting

22     from guns to scare neighbours.  That went on until the 21st.  And then on

23     the morning of the 21st, the first major attack against Ilidza was

24     organised from Hrasnica, from the side of the Institute for

25     Rehabilitation, and the first casualties were 11 people, among whom my

Page 13966

 1     neighbours, friends and colleagues, four of them I know personally from

 2     the Janic family, Stanko Stanic, and I won't enumerate the others.

 3        Q.   When we talked, you informed us that an hour or two before the

 4     attack, itself, you were in contact with the then president of the

 5     municipality, the Muslim official, Mahmutovic, and you had a feeling that

 6     something was afoot.  You were trying to diffuse the situation.  Is that

 7     correct?  You had a proposal to make, to proclaim Ilidza an open city?

 8        A.   In the same spirit that I mentioned before, when I talked about

 9     our talks and attempts to diffuse the situation in Ilidza, we had that

10     last conversation with Mahmutovic around 4.00 a.m. on the 22nd of April,

11     just an hour or two before the attack.  And then, as a last-ditch

12     attempt, I suggested that the two of us together proclaim the territory

13     of Ilidza an open place to deter hostilities, to prevent them, and that

14     was the last proposal I made in my role that I had then in the

15     administration.

16        Q.   And then started the artillery cannonade by the Muslim forces,

17     followed by an infantry attack; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You said 11 people were killed then.  Were most of them

20     civilians?

21        A.   No.  There were also armed soldiers who were trying to defend

22     Ilidza that morning, and they did repel the attack.  But there were also

23     civilians among the casualties.  I can speak from memory because I knew

24     some of these people.  Half of them were soldiers, half civilians,

25     roughly.

Page 13967

 1        Q.   What is the purpose -- what was the purpose of that attack from

 2     the Muslim side of Ilidza against the Serbian side of Ilidza?  Was there

 3     any need for the Muslims to capture the Serbian part of Ilidza, at the

 4     cost of human lives?

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Calls for speculation, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  That's an enormously wide question,

 7     Dr. Karadzic, and I think it's best to move on.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9        Q.   Is it correct that the second major attack against Ilidza

10     happened on the 14th of May, 1992?

11        A.   Yes, but the second attack was more comprehensive.  It was an

12     attack also from Stup, from the side of Otes, from Butmir, and from

13     Hrasnica, and at that time there were some eight new casualties in

14     Ilidza.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Does that mean that from all the Muslim

16     neighbourhoods, in the Serbian part of Ilidza and in the Muslim part,

17     like Hrasnica and Butmir, they attacked from all sides from which they

18     could possibly attack on the 14th of May?

19        A.   That's what I just said.

20        Q.   And what was the outcome of that attack, in terms of destruction

21     and casualties?

22        A.   I mentioned that, too.  I believe eight people were killed, and

23     there was a lot of destruction; buildings, private houses,

24     infrastructure.

25        Q.   Do you agree that Pofalici was a Serbian neighbourhood that

Page 13968

 1     remained isolated, completely encircled by the Muslims in the centre, and

 2     it was attacked on the 16th of May and completely devastated?

 3        A.   Of course, I cannot speak at that time of the effects of the

 4     attack on Pofalici, but I know that refugees came from Pofalici to Ilidza

 5     via Zuc and Vogosca, and they shared very fresh impressions with all of

 6     us, including me, from those two days, the 15th and 16th of May, 1992, in

 7     the Sarajevo neighbourhood of Pofalici.

 8        Q.   Now, Mr. Kezunovic, in view of the large number of refugees from

 9     Croatia, did you already have at that time refugees in Ilidza who had

10     come from Central Bosnia?

11        A.   I'm not sure they were there at that time, but a bit later, yes,

12     there was a whole enclave from -- of people from Zenica who had first

13     moved to Otes and then after the war moved to Visegrad.

14        Q.   By that time, the 14th, 15th and 16th, did refugees come from

15     Sarajevo, itself; Pofalici, Dobrinja, Alipasino Polje, the adjacent

16     neighbourhoods?  Did refugees flow into Ilidza from the city of Sarajevo,

17     itself?

18        A.   I've already said that.

19        Q.   Can you tell us, very briefly, these two attacks on Ilidza and

20     the repercussions of the attack against Pofalici, how did that affect the

21     population of Ilidza and the refugees who had already settled there?  In

22     other words, did you have problems with the people who, under the

23     impression of all these attacks, were in communication with the

24     authorities?

25        A.   I've already tried to explain.  General panic prevailed in

Page 13969

 1     Ilidza.  There seemed to be absolutely no prospects, and that made the

 2     situation unbearable for me.  I felt I could not any longer continue to

 3     be responsible for the situation in Ilidza, and that's why, on the 15th

 4     of May, I wrote my letter of resignation to all my duties, because of the

 5     situation in Ilidza and the complete hopelessness of any efforts and all

 6     the ideas that I had until then believed in as the only possibility to

 7     avoid war in our region as well.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P1086 is the next document I would

 9     like to call.  It's an intercept of a conversation between Prstojevic and

10     Milenko Novakovic.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Under those circumstances on the evening of the 15th, when you

13     have new casualties among civilians, this conversation took place.

14     Please look at it, and tell us, do you see the panic and the crisis

15     you've just described reflected in the tone of this conversation?  First

16     of all, do you see where it says:  "Good evening," in line 4?  Is it a

17     conversation that took place in the evening of the 14th of May, after

18     this second attack?

19        A.   Yes, I can see from the transcript that Mr. Prstojevic says in

20     line 4:  "Good evening."

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page in

22     Serbian, and I believe it's also page 2 in English.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you agree there is reference to people in Kotorac, and

25     Prstojevic asks if they had been arrested?  Was Ilidza also attacked on

Page 13970

 1     that same day from the direction of Kotorac?  Is Kotorac a small area

 2     just next-door to Butmir?  Was it one of the points from which the

 3     Muslims attacked?

 4        A.   I never heard or saw this intercept before.  And as for what

 5     happened on the 14th of May, I already said that it was an all-out attack

 6     on Ilidza from all directions, and that means including Butmir and

 7     Donji Kotorac.  So it was also aimed at this western side of Ilidza that

 8     is surrounded by Donji Kotorac, Butmir, et cetera.

 9        Q.   Read through to the end.  Read, in fact, the whole intercept, and

10     then I'll ask my question.

11             Next page, please.

12             Do you agree that in his rage, Prstojevic says, "We'll clear out

13     Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija, Hrasnica"?  Did Serbs, in fact, attack

14     Butmir, Sokolovic Kolonija and Hrasnica, or were these just words that

15     never materialised?

16        A.   Well, there is only one period about which I can testify.  I've

17     already said it was up to the 15th of May.  And in that period, there

18     were no such attacks against these places.  It would be irrelevant to

19     hear anything from me about the period later.

20        Q.   You know the other people in government in Ilidza.  Did

21     Prstojevic, or anyone else there, have the intention of expelling Muslims

22     and Croats from Ilidza, and was any action ever taken for that purpose?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour --

24             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, that's rank speculation you're

25     asking the witness to engage in.

Page 13971

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 2             I'm just wondering about that.  Maybe that question wasn't

 3     exactly posed so artfully, but we've had many testimonies from UN

 4     personnel that they believe that shells were intended to terrorise the

 5     civilian population or what the intent was.  And someone who was on the

 6     scene, who was a direct participant, knew the people involved, I think,

 7     could enlighten the Trial Chamber as to maybe not exactly directly what

 8     another person intended, but as to whether the expulsions were the result

 9     of somebody's -- that's what they regarded as a desirable outcome, or

10     whether there were other reasons for it.  So perhaps you could give

11     Dr. Karadzic some latitude, because I think the witness is in a position

12     to give you information on that issue that could be very helpful to you.

13     Thank you.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Mr. Robinson, it's one thing for a person

15     to assess the effect of, for instance, direct fire by artillery, but it's

16     another thing to ask him to go into the mind of another person.  So if

17     Dr. Karadzic can formulate the question in a way that doesn't require

18     speculation, but simply is asking the witness for his impression of what

19     happened as a result of a particular attack, then that could be relevant.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   First of all, Mr. Kezunovic, you know Mr. Prstojevic and you know

23     other members of that government.  Were you able to ever gain any

24     knowledge -- did you ever hear of any intentions on their part to drive

25     anyone out of Ilidza?  Was there such a policy in existence in any

Page 13972

 1     quarters in Ilidza?

 2        A.   Right.  I know Mr. Prstojevic, and I knew him very well; not only

 3     him, but all the people who held any posts of importance in Ilidza or had

 4     any influence.  From what I know about the areas with a concentration of

 5     Serbs, and I can say the same about the areas populated by Muslims and

 6     Croats, the basic policy was to defend one's own families and territories

 7     where they were compact:  Vojkovici, Krupac, Grlica, the centre of

 8     Ilidza, Blazuj, Serbian area; Hrasnica and Kolonija being the Muslim

 9     area; and Stup, the Croat area.  I don't remember hearing, and if I had,

10     I would have reacted as I did react in such situations.  If I had ever

11     heard of any conquering -- of any ambitions of conquest or expulsion, I

12     would have reacted.  But this was all about defence, self-defence from

13     the other parties, and that also applies to the judgements and words of

14     Prstojevic in this intercept.

15        Q.   Can you say, briefly, yes or no, at the beginning of war, in this

16     chaos, did Serbs and Muslims and Croats alike leave Ilidza of their own

17     accord in certain numbers?

18        A.   Yes, panic reigned supreme.  There was fear, there was

19     hopelessness, and whoever had an opportunity to move their familiar out

20     of Ilidza, they did that.  And one of those who did that was me.  I moved

21     my family to our weekend house in Pale.  I wanted to separate them from

22     Ilidza, because I considered Ilidza a very difficult area, where future

23     events were very unpredictable.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that a considerable number of Muslims and

25     Croats stayed in Ilidza and that a number of Croats moved into Ilidza

Page 13973

 1     from the areas in the direction of Kiseljak once the situation in Ilidza

 2     stabilised?

 3        A.   Yes, of course people stayed in Ilidza, irrespective of their

 4     ethnic background.  For example, my first-door neighbour, Husein Cehic,

 5     who stayed in Ilidza throughout the war, despite all the traumas that he

 6     experienced during the war, and then Katica, who was wounded in Ilidza

 7     and still remained living in Ilidza.  There were a lot of examples like

 8     that.  There were people who shared the destiny of Ilidza because they

 9     probably did not have an alternative.  They couldn't do anything else, I

10     suppose.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up D1164 just

12     briefly to see -- D1164.  This is a UN document dated 15th September

13     1994.  Page 4 -- let's first look at the title page.  The document has

14     been admitted.  D1164, 15 September 1994.  Can we go to page 4.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Where it says: "The movement of people," here the United Nations

17     inform that the ICRC witnessed when 100 Serbs were stopped on the road,

18     and then the last sentence says:

19             [In English] "The authorities may offer exchange for Muslim

20     residents in Ilidza."

21             [Interpretation] This means that the exit of the Serbs from

22     Hrasnica is conditioned by the Muslim authorities by the release of

23     Muslim detainees.  Is this evidence that there was a considerable Muslim

24     community living in Serbian Ilidza in 1994?

25        A.   Yes.  I cannot speak of any documents of the United Nations, but

Page 13974

 1     since I lived in Ilidza throughout the war and I personally knew people

 2     of different ethnic background, I've already mentioned two examples of my

 3     first-door neighbours who lived in Ilidza throughout the war, and at the

 4     same time I heard and I witnessed attempts of exchanges similar to the

 5     one mentioned in this document here.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Milomir Soja, from Ilidza, who was a witness here,

 7     testified that he was a member of a delegation that went to Muslim

 8     families to pacify them, to encourage them to stay in Ilidza.  While you

 9     were a member of the local government in Ilidza, did Muslims and Croats

10     have an address that they could go to --

11             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  If Dr. Karadzic is going to refer to previous

13     testimony, I'd like to have a page reference, please.

14             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.  Dr. Karadzic, this is another example

15     of what's happened on numerous occasions.  Can you please provide a page

16     reference when you're going to quote from a testimony.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I would do that if

18     I were given not ten, but at least six hours.  I would be really precise.

19     I'm trying to bridge the lack of time.  But let's not talk about

20     Mr. Soja.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Could Muslims or Croats talk to either you or to somebody else,

23     and did they, indeed, talk to you in order to feel safe, given the chaos

24     that prevailed and the large number of refugees that had arrived?

25        A.   Yes, I can say that during the time I was in Ilidza, I had daily

Page 13975

 1     conversations with people who resided at Ilidza at that time, and that

 2     included residents of different ethnic backgrounds.  They would come to

 3     me, asking me to try and influence or find a solution for them to be

 4     cared for, or to organise their departure or transfer to a different

 5     territory, and so on and so forth.  Unfortunately, my options towards the

 6     end of my activities were very limited at the time, unfortunately, and I

 7     could do very little to meet the requests of those people, who were

 8     afraid for their lives, basically.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to briefly talk about the

10     phenomenon of crisis staffs.  Unfortunately, we don't have much time, so

11     I would invite "yes" and "no" answers.

12             Am I right in saying that the term "crisis staff" is something

13     that was connected with any natural disaster, floods, fires, earthquakes,

14     and that also includes wars; yes or no?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Should we make a distinction between the Crisis Staff

17     of the Serbian Democratic Party that was in a position to report on

18     events from the Crisis Staff of the municipality as a government body?

19        A.   Yes, we're talking about two different bodies.  The first was a

20     political body, and the second -- the latter was a government body.

21        Q.   Was membership in crisis staffs usually ex officio and stemmed

22     from their positions in the government, and did these people represent

23     the government in the crisis staffs to which they were appointed?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Was it customary for a crisis staff to report to the regular

Page 13976

 1     bodies of authorities?  Was it customary for the crisis staff to inform

 2     the bodies of government of their decisions when those bodies of

 3     government could be convened?  For example, the municipality Crisis Staff

 4     or the War Presidency, when they took a decision at their session, were

 5     they duty-bound to report on that decision to the Municipal Assembly for

 6     such decision to be ratified by the latter body?

 7        A.   I can only say that my answer would be, yes, in principle.

 8     However, during the period while I was in office and while I participated

 9     in the work of the Crisis Staff, there were examples when the work of the

10     Crisis Staff was monitored and reported on by the Assembly of the

11     Municipality of Ilidza.

12        Q.   Can we say that the Crisis Staff of Ilidza was completely

13     autonomous and independent in its work?  Was it independent in its work?

14     Could somebody dictate the Crisis Staff what decisions it would take?

15        A.   The Crisis Staff reported only to the Municipal Assembly.  When

16     it comes to Ilidza municipality and when it comes to the time when I

17     participated in the work of that body, nobody could dictate the body what

18     decisions to take, or at least I didn't know of any such instances.

19        Q.   Could we then say that a crisis staff is a form of concentrated

20     municipal authorities, with a view to taking rapid decisions in

21     situations when 15-day dead-lines could not be complied with?  Is this

22     just a form of concentrating the existing authorities because members of

23     the Crisis Staff were all appointed ex officio and they were all members

24     of the existing government?  Am I right in saying that?

25        A.   Well, yes, the Crisis Staff was established in order to provide

Page 13977

 1     for efficient work, because the ordinary bodies of government would have

 2     been very slow and not very efficient.

 3        Q.   Is it true that the Crisis Staff in Ilidza was not a generator of

 4     ethnic cleansing, that it didn't take any decisions that would be in

 5     breach of any laws, at least during the period of time while you were in

 6     office?  Especially, it didn't take any decision of that sort with regard

 7     to people of other ethnic backgrounds?

 8        A.   While I participated in the work of the Crisis Staff, I cannot

 9     talk about illegal decisions, especially not decisions that would have

10     been taken against the population of other ethnic backgrounds.  At the

11     same time, there were some decisions that I either opposed or was -- or

12     abstained in their passing because I believed that the Crisis Staff had

13     to try not to compound the situation in Ilidza even further.  I thought

14     that the Crisis Staff had to try and relax the situation as much as

15     possible.

16        Q.   Just for linguistic purposes, you say here that you cannot talk

17     about illegal decisions.  Does that mean that you don't know that any

18     illegal decisions were ever taken?  Is that what you meant when you said

19     that?

20        A.   Yes, precisely.

21        Q.   Thank you.  According to what you know, the existence or the

22     functioning of the Executive Board, was that part of a criminal

23     intention, or a criminal organisation, or was it a way for the local

24     self-government to organise itself?  I said "Executive Board," but I

25     meant the Crisis Staff.  Was the Crisis Staff part of a criminal plan, a

Page 13978

 1     body that received its instructions from somebody else, or was it a way

 2     to deal with the problems that existed at the time on behalf of the

 3     government, as its concentrated form?

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I think the first part of that

 5     multi-barrelled question about whether the Crisis Staff was part of a

 6     criminal plan isn't appropriate for this witness.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  Not only that; the witness has already said, in

 8     very clear terms, what he thought the functioning and the necessity was

 9     for the Crisis Staff, so I think the whole question is, frankly,

10     superfluous, Dr. Karadzic.

11             Ms. Edgerton, while -- I'm looking at the clock.  What's the --

12     what, if any, time would the OTP need for re-examination?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like to ask for 10 minutes, Your Honour,

14     please.

15             JUDGE MORRISON:  The position is that Dr. Karadzic's three hours

16     don't expire until 2.30, in any event.  Dr. Karadzic, will you need to

17     take the whole of that time?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Certainly.  I was hoping for more

19     time, actually, but that would mean that we would have to keep

20     Mr. Kezunovic until tomorrow, because I only touched upon a lot of the

21     issues.  And the gentleman who was the president of the Executive Board -

22     that was the executive government at the time - could certainly tell us

23     more.  If we could extend today's work until quarter to 3.00, I am sure

24     that both the Defence and the Prosecution could finish today.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  I'll be advised if that is possible.  That means

Page 13979

 1     the co-operation of all concerned.

 2             In the meantime, while that's being thought about, can you

 3     continue with your cross-examination.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5        Q.   I would like to ask you about your experience and about what you

 6     know about links and co-ordination between local self-government, more

 7     specifically your municipality, with republican bodies.  Was there a

 8     link?  Was there any co-ordination between the local level of

 9     self-government, and I'm talking specifically about Ilidza, and the

10     central bodies of the Republika Srpska, at least during the period that

11     you're familiar with, at the moment when the war broke out and for about

12     a month and a half into that war?

13        A.   The basic chains of communication from Ilidza and from all the

14     other 10 urban municipalities were communication and co-ordination at the

15     level of the city of Sarajevo.  And in practical terms, all the

16     administrative activities at the local level in Sarajevo boiled down to

17     co-operation and co-ordination with the city.  There were also

18     co-ordination attempts with the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina up to

19     the spring of 1999.  We, as local self-government, tried to deal with

20     some large infrastructural problems that surpassed the abilities of both

21     the municipality and the city.

22             When it comes to the period leading up to the war, from the

23     moment when the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina was

24     established, the municipal bodies, and I, as their leader, and, mind you,

25     this was a newly-established administrative body, could not exist -- or,

Page 13980

 1     rather, no serious forms of co-operation could exist at the time, because

 2     very soon thereafter all the communication chains were severed.  So in

 3     that sense, I can't talk about any type of subordination, co-ordination,

 4     or co-operation with the bodies that were established at the level of the

 5     Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  In your examination-in-chief, you mentioned a meeting

 7     which took place on the 17th of April.  That was my only visit to Ilidza.

 8     Do you agree with me that the purpose of that meeting was to pass a

 9     decision on whether the central bodies of the Republika Srpska could be

10     accommodated in Ilidza, and that the ensuing vote did not yield a

11     decision?

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Karadzic, just to interrupt, but it's been

13     confirmed that we can run until quarter to 3.00, but only until quarter

14     to 3.00.  So I would ask you, if you could, to finish your

15     cross-examination by 2.35, and that gives 10 minutes for the OTP.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

17     believe I can achieve that.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you agree with me that voting took place and that the result

20     of the vote was 4-4, which is why we did not take a decision at the end

21     of that meeting?

22        A.   The decision was not taken.  The Serbian ministers in the

23     government - there were eight of them present - could not agree, and

24     that's why a decision was made by an inner circle, which included

25     yourself.  And we were informed at the meeting that you mentioned, that I

Page 13981

 1     attended in Ilidza, that there were no elementary security conditions in

 2     place for the bodies of the Serbian republic to continue working in

 3     Ilidza, which is why the bodies of government would move to Pale, and

 4     that was the result of that meeting which took place on the 18th of

 5     April, I believe, on the 18th of April, 1992, in Ilidza, the meeting that

 6     you and I both attended.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Three days thereafter, there was a big attack.

 8        A.   Yes, on the 22nd of April.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that the meeting was not convened

10     because of the citizens of other ethnic backgrounds?  However, we did

11     talk about them, and do you remember that I gave you some recommendations

12     with this regard?

13        A.   Yes, of course I can remember that meeting.  For us in Ilidza,

14     that meeting was very significant, and we in Ilidza had expected -- we

15     wanted the bodies of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to

16     continue working at Ilidza.  When you took a different decision, we in

17     Ilidza, including myself, were very disappointed.  However, at the same

18     time, I remember that meeting because of your words, because of what you

19     said.  You suggested -- you told us how we should behave in Ilidza, in

20     view of the overall atmosphere.  Your statement -- I cannot quote your

21     words, but, in any case, you told us to organise ourselves so as to

22     protect everybody, especially members of other ethnic groups.  I believe

23     that you spoke -- you uttered words to that effect, as far as I can

24     remember.

25        Q.   Thank you.  I'm sorry we don't have time to show that map.

Page 13982

 1     However, perhaps you can confirm for all of us that Ilidza was also

 2     completely surrounded by Muslims.

 3        A.   Yes.  In answering the Prosecution's questions, I described the

 4     atmosphere -- or, rather, what was happening throughout the war in

 5     Ilidza.  I described the atmosphere in Ilidza as being very similar and

 6     riddled with the same problems as besieged Sarajevo.  In that sense,

 7     Ilidza was doubly surrounded.  On the one side, we had Sarajevo.  On the

 8     other side, there was the area of Central Bosnia, leading towards

 9     Kiseljak.  And in that sense, the territory of Ilidza was almost besieged

10     in the same way as Sarajevo, and Sarajevo is the epitome of a surrounded

11     city.

12        Q.   Is it true that Mount Mojmilo, towering above Ilidza, was the

13     place from which they shelled Ilidza, Nedzarici, and other places in the

14     depth of the territory?  I could enumerate a number of localities, and

15     the Trial Chamber now knows where they are.  Can you tell me, just yes or

16     no, did Muslims shell Ilidza from Mojmilo, and is Mojmilo the mountain

17     towering above Ilidza; yes or no?

18        A.   Yes, as far as I know.  But Igman was much more important, in

19     that sense, as a place from which there is a better view of the entire

20     territory of Ilidza.  When we're talking about Mojmilo, yes, fire was

21     opened from there, but not only on Ilidza, but also Vojkovici, Milici,

22     Krupac, the so-called eastern part of the municipality of Ilidza.

23        Q.   I started with Mojmilo.  I would have arrived at Mount Igman.

24     But could they shell you from Mojmilo, from Lanjaca [phoen], from

25     Svabino Brdo, Sokoljevo, Igman?  And I don't know whether they could

Page 13983

 1     shell you from Ormanj, but they could do it from Igman.  Could they open

 2     fire at you from all the surrounding hills, and did they do it

 3     practically every day?

 4        A.   Yes, but I would also include Ormanj, because in that part of

 5     Ilidza, in the western part of Ilidza, and I mean Zenik, Vela, and part

 6     of Rakovica towards Kiseljak, there was an area which was heavily shelled

 7     from there.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D3493.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is the War Presidency of the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza

11     making a statement, a communique, dated 29 October 1992, at the time you

12     were at the factory, not in government.  Are you familiar with this

13     incident of shelling of Ilidza, causing massive casualties among people

14     standing at a bus stop, nine dead and thirty-five or thirty-three

15     wounded?

16        A.   It's not nine; it's 18.

17        Q.   I did say 18.

18        A.   I've already mentioned my neighbour, Katica, who was wounded,

19     precisely in that incident, and of course I know about this horrible

20     event that day at Ilidza, and I know four or five of them personally.

21     Let me mention Lazar Sarenac, my friend, who was wounded seriously that

22     day, my neighbour Katica.  I'm very well informed of this horrific event.

23        Q.   Where were you at the time?

24        A.   At the factory Famos in Vojkovici, 29 October 1992.  That's on

25     the other -- the eastern side.  On that day, I was not in this part of

Page 13984

 1     the centre where this happened at a bus stop, but it was very close to my

 2     apartment, and most of those people were known to me, my neighbours.

 3        Q.   Do you remember another major massacre when a wedding party was

 4     deliberately targeted near the church in Blazuj, causing, again, a number

 5     of deaths?

 6        A.   Yes, not only near the church in Blazuj.  I believe some 100

 7     metres from the church, there was a hospital run by an enterprise called

 8     Put.  It was targeted by shelling several times, and the patients were

 9     injured.  Both the church and the hospital are in Blazuj.

10        Q.   You, the municipal authorities, established that hospital when

11     you were cut off from communicating between Kasindol and Ilidza.  Was

12     that a hospital that served both Muslims, Croats and Serbs?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  The first part of that question is a statement, so

14     maybe the witness could answer both of those, the statement and the

15     actual question.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The establishment of that hospital

18     called "Zica" was necessitated by our inability to go to the hospital in

19     Kasindol.  Late Professor Miro Njego, we were looking for an adequate

20     building, and we found one provisional building which we called "Zica,"

21     and we tried to find a few doctors.  We found a group of doctors, headed

22     by Dr. Pejic, to organise a field hospital, a make-shift hospital that

23     would deal with the wounded.  It was first on a hill near Blazuj that was

24     later moved to the administrative building of that enterprise Put, and

25     that hospital was shelled and attacked several times.  So with regard to

Page 13985

 1     both make-shift hospitals on both locations, called "Zica," is something

 2     I negotiated with Dr. -- with Miroslav Njego.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Is it the case that this hospital served Serbs, as well as

 5     Muslims and Croats, and even the injured of the Muslims and Croats?

 6        A.   Yes, as far as I know.  And I know personally the director of

 7     that hospital, Dr. Miroslav Pejic, and I talked to him frequently, trying

 8     to help the hospital, in my various roles, including the director of that

 9     factory.  I got that information from him; namely, that his hospital in

10     Blazuj served villages from Kiseljak, and Muslims and Croats from the

11     surrounding area, and anyone who showed up at the door of the hospital

12     and needed medical attention.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, I think that document is -- my

15     objection, actually, is that that document is tu quoque and, therefore,

16     irrelevant.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond?

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE MORRISON:  Yes, Dr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hardly agree with this theme

21     of Ms. Edgerton.  This is not a tu quoque thing, it's not looking for a

22     reason for Serbs to respond.  Ilidza has an advantageous position.

23     People were hit at a bus stop.  It's not a justification for any action.

24     There was no action.  It says in the third paragraph that Serbs from

25     Ilidza never reached out for somebody else's territory.  This document

Page 13986

 1     just shows what the circumstances were and how much the Ilidza people

 2     suffered, and it has great relevance to the state of mind of the people

 3     and individuals in Ilidza.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, it's relevant in this context:  The

 5     relevance to the testimony of the witness.  And in that respect and in

 6     that respect only, we are agreed that it should be admitted.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1255, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3490 is the next document I would

 9     like to ask for.  1D3490.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   It's a document by Dr. Pejic, whom you mentioned, and it

12     confirms he's asking the municipality to give more funding because of

13     late -- pursuant to a decision of the civilian and military authorities,

14     over the past five months they provided complete medical and surgical

15     assistance to the population and troops of HVO Kiseljak.  So they treated

16     both the wounded and prisoners of war.  Do you see in this document that

17     the good doctor is asking the municipality to pay for that?

18        A.   I cannot speak to this document because I am not familiar with

19     it.  But I've said in my previous answer, because I know Milan Pejic and

20     talked to him frequently, and this document shows something that I was

21     well aware of, and I and my colleagues, directors of various businesses

22     in Ilidza, were trying to help the operation of that hospital and help

23     the efforts of Dr. Pejic to do his work.  In that period, I got

24     information directly from him that the hospital catered both to the

25     villagers and the civilian population, but even the military patients.

Page 13987

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             Can this be received?

 3             And since I've exhausted all my minutes, I'm not going to

 4     continue, although there are many more topics and documents outstanding.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  Ms. Edgerton, as to admissibility?

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, the witness said he couldn't speak to it,

 7     but then he offered an answer that assists Your Honours in interpreting

 8     the document.  So no objection.

 9             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

10             And thank you, Dr. Karadzic.  That concludes your

11     cross-examination.

12             Now, Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me.

16             JUDGE MORRISON:  We just need an exhibit number.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  That will be Exhibit D1256.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

19                           Re-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

20        Q.   Mr. Kezunovic, today in the transcript at pages 79 and 80, you

21     engaged in an extended discussion with Dr. Karadzic - not from your

22     statement, but from the transcript - about municipal government and

23     political authority.  And I'd actually like to take that discussion down

24     from the rather abstract constitutional level it was at to the actual

25     political and party structures that figure in your testimony.

Page 13988

 1             Your indulgence for a moment.

 2             I'd like to know, from your experience, from what you heard, from

 3     what you saw, did the SDS influence and even instruct its party members

 4     on the local level to act or vote in a particular manner?

 5        A.   I did not quite understand the question, but my answer would be

 6     that the SDS, as a political party, operated like any other political

 7     party.  Through its membership, they tried to exert influence on various

 8     organs, executive boards, or local governments, or non-party figures like

 9     me, to realise their political intentions.  I believe that is the case

10     with all political parties in any system.

11        Q.   Thank you very much.  One question relating to the note about the

12     proofing session that was admitted here as D1252.  That was the note that

13     the Office of the Prosecutor prepared following your meeting with us

14     yesterday.

15             At page 83 of today's transcript, lines 18 to 22, Dr. Karadzic

16     put to you that you went, with the Serb police chief of Ilidza, to

17     Sokolovic Kolonija with your counterparts, Mr. Mahmutovic and Mr. Mlivic,

18     and you actually agreed with him.  Now, perhaps we could see that

19     document, 1D252 [sic], because paragraph 14 of that document notes you as

20     saying that the Serb police chief of Ilidza did not accompany you to

21     Sokolovic Kolonija, and perhaps you could tell us which is, in fact,

22     correct.

23             Could we see quickly D1252, please, paragraph 14.

24             If I can draw your attention to the fifth line of paragraph 14,

25     it says:

Page 13989

 1             "The witness travelled to --"

 2        A.   [In English] But Kovac did not come.

 3        Q.   So what you said to Dr. Karadzic, when you agreed with him that

 4     the Serb chief of Ilidza, went to Sokolovic Kolonija, that actually, you

 5     were mistaken; is that right?  Mr. Kovac did not come?

 6        A.   [Interpretation] I certainly didn't say anything of the sort,

 7     that Kovac had come with me.  It must be a mistake on the transcript.  I

 8     couldn't have said that, because Mr. Kovac, although he was supposed to

 9     appear there, did not show up, although he had been properly informed.

10     The fact is Mr. Kovac was not there, and if it says in the transcript

11     that he was, it must be a typo.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpretation came through

13     "Chief Kovac."  He was never chief.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Kovac was never the chief.  The

15     chief was Mlivic -- Glivic, Glivic, Nedin Glivic [phoen].

16             MS. EDGERTON:

17        Q.   Finally, at pages 63 and 64 of the transcript today, you

18     enumerated a list of the outlying neighbourhoods of Ilidza, describing

19     their ethnicity, and you pointed out the population of the city centre

20     was ethnically mixed.  And then at page 84, Dr. Karadzic put a document

21     to you from May 1992, D1254, saying that the Serb Municipality -- or

22     dealing with the delineation of the Serb Municipality of Ilidza.

23             Now, I note from this document that this central area, which

24     you've described as being ethnically mixed, is actually included within

25     the municipal boundary of the Serbian Municipality of Ilidza, so I'd like

Page 13990

 1     to know what happened, then, to non-Serbs living and working in this

 2     central area.

 3        A.   Yes, precisely.  The central part of Ilidza was ethnically mixed.

 4     It was even difficult to estimate the ethnic proportions of various

 5     groups.  I suppose there was a slight majority of Serbs, slightly less

 6     Bosniaks, and a minority of Croats, but the central part of the

 7     municipality was ethnically very mixed.  And in that whole situation,

 8     that was another factor that complicated it even further, and that fact

 9     also dictated and narrowed down the options for action in such an area.

10     And there were incidents, like taking the flags down off the building of

11     the municipalities, and other attempts -- we had to deal with any attempt

12     to frighten members of different ethnic communities.  And we always, in

13     the government, tried to make sure the citizens knew that their ethnic

14     group enjoyed equal protection.

15        Q.   How effective was that protection?  What happened to the

16     non-Serbs living and working in that central area?

17        A.   The war happened to them, and all the unfortunate circumstances

18     war brings.  And it brought them to Ilidza, like it brought them to the

19     Serbs in encircled Sarajevo, especially in the initial -- the early days

20     of the war, when there was no legal protection for anyone, before the

21     police and then the army was established.  But the early period,

22     April/May 1992, was a period of complete chaos in Ilidza, where the

23     situation was very hard for the non-Serbs too.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  I think my time's up, Your Honour.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank you.

Page 13991

 1             The Chamber would like to thank everybody involved in the

 2     extension of time, and in particular to you, Mr. Kezunovic.  That's the

 3     end of your testimony.  Thank you very much for coming to The Hague to

 4     give it.  You're now free to go, and have a safe journey back to your

 5     home.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too.

 7             JUDGE MORRISON:  9.00 a.m. tomorrow morning.  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness withdrew]

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 1st day of June,

11                           2011, at 9.00 a.m.