Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15469

 1                           Tuesday, 28 June 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.

 8                           WITNESS:  MILORAD DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Before we begin, I wished to put this on record.

11             On Friday last week, the Chamber issued a redaction order of a

12     portion of the public audio-visual record of the hearing so as to delete

13     a conversation which was unrelated to these proceedings and which could

14     be heard on the French channel.

15             Thank you.

16             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Good morning, Your Honours.

18                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff: [Continued]

19        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.

20             On Friday, we stopped after having played a part of a video

21     showing an award ceremony in Kula, and we had seen the man,

22     Zika Crnogorac reporting to Jovica Stanisic.  Although we couldn't hear

23     the words spoken in the English at that time, I don't see a reason to

24     repeat this.

25             I would ask that the video be played, 65 ter 45235; however,

Page 15470

 1     another section.  And the section to be played is at 00:09:02.

 2             And as we are seeing it, Mr. Davidovic, would you please tell us

 3     whom you recognise.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I recognise Mr. Milosevic and

 6     Jovica Stanisic, and this is Zika Crnogorac; Zika, nicknamed Crnogorac.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can stop here.  That is at 00:00:34.

 8             Can we now please move on to number 00:15:36, and we will hear

 9     something said.

10        Q.   And my first question to you would be, if you hear it:  Who is

11     speaking?  And then we will listen to what is being said.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

14        Q.   If you recognise someone, please.

15        A.   Vucevic; Milosevic; Jovica Stanisic; Petar Gracanin, my minister;

16     Mr. Kertes.  Frenki is the person who is speaking, but let me see a few

17     more faces.

18        Q.   Would you please concentrate now on the text also, what is said?

19             Mr. Davidovic, having heard what was said, does that confirm your

20     own observations in relation to where this group was actually deployed in

21     Bosnia and Herzegovina?

22        A.   Yes, this refers to all the places where that unit had fought.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, I would like to have this

24     video admitted.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do we have a transcript for this?

Page 15471

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It was actually -- yes, we do have a

 2     transcript for this one.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, because it was not read out and it's not

 4     reflected in the transcript, so that it's better if we have that separate

 5     transcribed script.  Could you give the number?  Is it in the same

 6     number?

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's the same number, Your Honours.  It's a

 8     transcript in both languages.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do we have the entire clip or do we have a separate

10     number for this clip?

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would actually ask to have the entire clip

12     be admitted.  But if you prefer differently --

13             JUDGE KWON:  The entire clip, in terms of length, how long would

14     it be?

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's quite a lengthy -- a lengthy -- but

16     it's mostly people attending the award.  It's 48 minutes, I'm just told,

17     48 minutes.  Part of this is the speech, part of what we heard, and a lot

18     of this is basically people being greeted and these kind of things.

19             JUDGE KWON:  For the clarity, I'm minded to admit those parts

20     that we saw in the courtroom.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That's fine.  Yes, that's fine, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.  I don't think there's

23     any objection to it.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No.  We preferred the way you've decided to do it

25     also.

Page 15472

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll give it an exhibit number.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2852, Your Honours.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honours, that would also include, of

 4     course, the Friday clip.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 7             I would ask that as the next exhibit, P01105 be called up.

 8             And as it is coming up:  It's a transcript from the 22nd

 9     RS Assembly session of the 23rd and the 24th of November, 1992.  And we

10     would need on the screen the English, page 20, the top part, and the

11     B/C/S version, page 18, the bottom part.  Page 18.

12             Just for Mr. Davidovic, you see who's speaking here at the

13     Assembly session.

14             Can we please have in the B/C/S now the next page?

15        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, Ms. Plavsic, as a response to Mico Stanisic, is

16     stating here the following.  She says that:

17             "It is the truth, not rumours, Minister, that after the statement

18     by the president of the republic, that is, his call to volunteers in all

19     Serbian lands and other Orthodox countries, I sent letters to all

20     addresses.  My intention was to collect anybody who was willing to fight

21     for the Serbian cause ..."

22             And she also refers to letters being sent to Seselj, to Arkan,

23     and to Jovic.

24             Mr. Davidovic, are you aware of this Assembly session, and did

25     you have -- did you review this part during your preparation for the

Page 15473

 1     testimony?

 2        A.   I had heard earlier on that there was a debate at the Assembly

 3     session concerning volunteers, and I heard that Biljana had clearly said

 4     that she was the one who had called upon these volunteers to come, and in

 5     writing, at that.  And I had an opportunity of seeing this document

 6     during my first proofing with the Prosecutor.  That was the first time I

 7     saw this.

 8        Q.   And do you know whether the president of the Republika Srpska,

 9     that is, Mr. Karadzic, called for volunteers?

10        A.   Yes.  I also heard that Mr. Karadzic had asked that all of those

11     who wished to fight for Republika Srpska should report as volunteers and

12     come to Bosnia, join the units of the army, and fight on the Serbian

13     side.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have a reference for

15     this?

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could only the speaker's

17     microphone be on, please.  We can barely hear the witness.  Thank you.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

19        Q.   Here is also mentioned Mr. Jovic, who was sent a letter.  Who

20     would that be, if you know him, and do you know whether certain

21     paramilitaries or volunteers were associated with him?

22        A.   Well, I think that Mr. Jovic is from Pazova, either Stari Pazova

23     or Nova Pazova.  I think they were called the Eagles, or the Falcons, or

24     something like that.  They were also volunteers in the territory of

25     Republika Srpska.

Page 15474

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Madam Uertz-Retzlaff, would you be minded to take up

 2     the objections of Mr. Karadzic, in terms of when and where did he hear

 3     that?  I'll ask him.

 4             Mr. Davidovic, you said you heard that Mr. Karadzic had asked the

 5     volunteers to come to Bosnia, but can you help us, in terms of when and

 6     where did you hear and when and where did he speak about it?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard that several times, not

 8     only from one person, but several persons.  I heard it from military

 9     personnel, from members of the authorities, too.  If I were to remember

10     individually who it was, I was also informed about this from

11     Mico Stanisic, and his assistants, his associates, and military personnel

12     who were there at the time; Colonel Ilic, commander of the corps.  And I

13     had a great many other conversations with people.  This was, more or

14     less, a generally-known thing.  It wasn't some kind of a secret or it's

15     not something that was being concealed.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this document is already in

18     evidence.  There's no need to admit it.

19             I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 07347 be brought up on the

20     screen, please.

21             And as it is coming up:  It is a report of the chief of the

22     CSB Bijeljina, Mr. Jesuric, to the RS MUP, of the 21st of May, 1992.

23        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, Mr. Jesuric is referring here to the security

24     situation and to the behaviour of certain informal and uncontrolled

25     paramilitary groups, which he calls soldiers from the front, and the

Page 15475

 1     problems they caused in relation to crime prevention.  Mr. Davidovic,

 2     were you aware that these problems existed in May 1992?

 3        A.   Yes, such things did happen in the area of Bijeljina, Zvornik,

 4     Brcko; that is, that area that is covered by the CSB Bijeljina.  And that

 5     is what Predrag Jesuric is speaking about.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would request the admission

 7     of this document into evidence.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be done.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2853, Your Honours.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now ask that video-clip 65 ter

11     45359A be played, and just the sequence 00:34:30 to 00:36:26.

12             And if you would tell us whom you see, and then, of course,

13     listen to what is said.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is Arkan; Zeljko Raznatovic,

16     nicknamed Arkan.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can see what is written there.  I don't

18     know whether this can be read into the transcript.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure the accused can hear the B/C/S.  We

20     have sound, don't we?

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We should have sound.  I'm also surprised

22     that nothing is coming.  I don't know.

23                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  What can be done about it, I'm not sure.

25             JUDGE KWON:  A technician is coming to take a look.

Page 15476

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Perhaps we can wait until this is done and

 2     go on with something else in between.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             But, actually, we do have another -- we do have another

 6     video-clip, and I hope that this works now.  It's 65 ter 45048, and I

 7     would request to play the parts 00:01:00 to 00:04:05.  It is in Sanction

 8     with subtitles, but it should also be audible.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I see it's not working either, so we can see

11     how this can be fixed.  We can move on.

12             Your Honour, it will take a minute.

13                           [Audio-clip played]

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's not functioning.  We have to do this in

16     the break, and we can move on using now documents.

17             Can I please have 65 ter 13290 be brought up on the screen.

18        Q.   And, Mr. Davidovic, it is a document which purports to be a

19     letter from the Party for Serbian Unity to the president of

20     Republika Srpska, dated the 16th of April, 1994.  Mr. Davidovic, did you

21     have an opportunity to see this document in the preparation for your

22     testimony?

23        A.   Yes, I saw it in the OTP during my proofing.

24        Q.   Do you know the Party for Serbian Unity and his [sic] leader?

25        A.   The Party for Serbian Unity is a party that was founded by

Page 15477

 1     Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan, who led the party and who had a certain number

 2     of supporters.  I think that he actually had four or five -- or,

 3     actually, six seats in the Serbian Parliament.

 4             This is a document I looked at earlier on, and I think that it

 5     primarily refers to the telegram of support that was sent when the NATO

 6     bombing took place.  They are being supported here to continue with their

 7     heroic resistance.  And, if necessary, he is expecting a call to join the

 8     armed forces, which can be seen unequivocally from this document.

 9        Q.   And, Mr. Davidovic, looking at the address of this party, do you

10     know this address?

11        A.   That is the street where Mr. Arkan's house is to this day; the

12     late Arkan, that is.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would request the admission

14     of this document.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2854, Your Honours.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now please have item 65 ter 01596 on

18     the screen.

19        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, in many paragraphs in your statement, you refer to

20     problems with paramilitary formations, and we do not need to repeat this

21     here.

22             And as this is now on the screen, it is a report on paramilitary

23     formations in the territory of the Republika Srpska, issued by the VRS

24     Main Staff on the 28th of July, 1992.  In your written statement, you,

25     indeed, refer to this report.  And, Your Honour, that's at paragraph 77.

Page 15478

 1             Did you review this report when you came to The Hague to prepare

 2     for your testimony?

 3        A.   Yes, I reviewed this document in the OTP, and even before I came

 4     here I knew that the military security had compiled an analysis about the

 5     situation among the military units that was submitted to the Main Staff.

 6     On the basis of this assessment that was written up by Tolimir, an order

 7     followed which was written by Radovan Karadzic, in which he asks for

 8     urgent measures to be taken throughout Republika Srpska and measures that

 9     would be aimed at removing the paramilitaries or placing them under the

10     command of the Army of Republika Srpska.  This document reflects the

11     situation as it actually was, the real situation.

12        Q.   And as the paramilitaries -- the groups described here on the

13     first page and their behaviour, would that be correct, a correct

14     assessment?

15        A.   Yes, absolutely correct.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we have the second page, please, in

17     both languages.

18        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, in the complex paragraph in the middle on that

19     page, reference is made to the fact that such groups hiding behind

20     official authorities, behind the ruling party.  Did you, yourself, make

21     observation to this effect?

22        A.   You know what?  It is hard to explain and hard to say these are

23     volunteers of a political party.  Usually they come in groups, bigger or

24     smaller ones.  They introduce themselves as being representatives or

25     members of some political party, and then they report in the Army of

Page 15479

 1     Republika Srpska.  Now, whether they're actually members of that

 2     political party or not, it is hard to say.  Later on, it would turn out

 3     very quickly that they didn't belong to anyone, that they were

 4     self-organised, that quite a few of these people had come to the

 5     front-line with criminal intent, just to loot.  I'm not sure that they

 6     were under any political party.  Perhaps they were sympathisers or

 7     supporters, but that is totally insignificant in relation to what they

 8     were doing.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have page 5 in the English,

10     and the focus would be on the middle of the page, and page 5 in the

11     B/C/S, more to the bottom, focusing in the B/C/S more to the bottom.

12     Yes.

13        Q.   You see here a paragraph with this reference to Mauzer and the

14     Serbian National Guard, and their backing by the Bijeljina SDS.  Is that

15     a correct assessment that is provided here?

16        A.   I think so.  I'm going to try to explain.

17             At the start of the war, it was believed that the army, the

18     former JNA, should not be defending the Serbian people because they

19     considered it to be a traitorist army, a former Communist army, and that

20     this was something that was to be left behind.  And they felt that they

21     should form a military formation that should be exclusively under the

22     control of the SDS, and that is why the crisis staffs in the

23     municipalities of Bijeljina and Zvornik, and, more or less, everywhere,

24     as far as I know, formed different units.  In Bijeljina, this was the

25     Serbian National Guard.  In Ugljevik, it was an independent unit under

Page 15480

 1     the TO Staff, but it was commanded from the beginning by Mitar, Mando was

 2     his nickname.  So wherever I had the opportunity to go, I encountered

 3     these units which were exclusively under the command of the Crisis Staff

 4     or the SDS.  I even have an explanation of why they were doing that.

 5        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, just one clarification.  The Serbian National

 6     Guard in Bijeljina, who was their head, the commander of them?

 7        A.   It was Ljubisa Savic, aka Mauzer.

 8        Q.   This Mando that you just mentioned, that is the group referred to

 9     in the next paragraph; is that right?

10        A.   Yes.  It's a group that was formed by the SDS TO Staff, headed by

11     a person called Mando.

12        Q.   And the persons mentioned in that paragraph, the last sentence,

13     these people, do you know them and to which bodies they belong?

14        A.   Yes, I am aware of them, and I know under whose command they

15     were.  I even knew some individuals who were members of that unit.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to have this

17     document admitted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2855, Your Honours.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I'm also informed that the

21     videos are now working, and I would like to try this again.

22             Can we please have now 65 ter 45359A and play it.  And as I said,

23     it's from 00:34:30 to 00:36:26.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  My information was incorrect.  Thank you.

Page 15481

 1             We continue, then, with documents.

 2             Your Honour, we continue with a video.  However, there is no

 3     spoken text on it, so I think that allows us to play it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I think I found the transcript in both languages,

 5     B/C/S and English.  If Defence is fine, we can move on.  But that's the

 6     problem; the witness cannot hear them.

 7             Yes, let's move on.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The clip 45341A should be played from

 9     00:55:35 to 00:56:55.  And as I said, there is no spoken text.

10             Mr. Davidovic, perhaps you could give us a comment on what we

11     see.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a review of a unit from

14     Petrusic, previously in Bijeljina.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter is not sure of the name.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in front of the Municipal

17     Assembly building, when the monument to King Peter was being unveiled,

18     the liberator.  I think it's Peter.  I'm not sure.

19             This is Mauzer holding the flag.

20             This is General Simic.

21             Prince Karadjordjevic.

22             This is a Serbian deputy.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That's enough.

24        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you know when and where this event happened?

25        A.   This is in front of the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly building,

Page 15482

 1     when the monument was being unveiled.  Actually, there was a monument

 2     here before, except that it had a five-pointed star on it.  And instead

 3     of that, Petar Karadjordjevic, the liberator, was placed there.  This was

 4     in 1993.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to request the

 6     admission of this video.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2856, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask for a clarification?

10             It is stated here that this is a review of the unit Petrusic.

11     Can the witness be asked to clarify which unit this is?  What is this?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Can you answer the question?  The witness noted that

13     he couldn't hear the names you referred to.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not say Petrusic at any

15     point.  I said that this was a unit lined up in front of the sugar

16     refinery.  I don't know whose unit it is.  But judging by the insignia on

17     their shirts, on their blouses, on the camouflage uniforms, there is a

18     black panther on it which I can assume would indicate that this is

19     Arkan's Guard.  I'm not sure, though, because I cannot see who the

20     commander is.  I wasn't able to see that.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I just wanted to note that

22     Mr. Karadzic will have a lot of time with the witness during

23     cross-examination, and it's now the second time that he basically asks

24     questions.

25             JUDGE KWON:  No, that question was about to be asked by me

Page 15483

 1     because of the interpreter's notation.  Thank you.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3             Your Honour, I also wonder -- your proposal to play the other two

 4     videos, nevertheless, is actually a good one, because the witness has

 5     reviewed the transcript, so he would know what is being said.  So we can,

 6     indeed, play, if that is a convenient time, even without the words.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's do that.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  And the first one would be

 9     65 ter 45359A, and it is 00:34:30 to 00:36:26.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I think we can actually stop it here.

12        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, you have already mentioned that this is Arkan

13     speaking.  And did you have an opportunity to see this clip in your

14     preparation for the testimony?

15        A.   Yes, I've seen it.

16        Q.   And Arkan is referring here to an invitation of the TO Semberija

17     and Bijeljina from the Crisis Staff to help the Serb people which were

18     endangered here.  Which crisis --

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to interrupt you, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

20     Why don't we up-load the transcript in English and B/C/S, and then --

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Because the witness had seen the video already, so

23     we don't have to see the video, and we can work on the transcript, if

24     you'd like to ask some questions.

25             We switch to the e-court.

Page 15484

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  That would, indeed, be helpful.

 2        Q.   And we would just look at the first paragraph, where Arkan is

 3     stating that he came on the invitation of the TO Semberija and Bijeljina

 4     from the Crisis Staff to help the Serb people which were endangered.

 5             This Crisis Staff he's referring to, who would that be,

 6     Mr. Davidovic?

 7        A.   The Crisis Staff which called Arkan to come to Bijeljina to

 8     liberate it, quote/unquote, they were members, first of all, of the

 9     Municipal Assembly, the president of the Municipal Assembly, the

10     president of the Executive Board, the chief of the Defence, the chief of

11     MUP, the head of the Economic Sector.  These were members of the

12     Crisis Staff.  As needed later, the Crisis Staff expanded and invited

13     other people from other organs or jurisdictions which at that point in

14     time were important for them.  Somebody from the Crisis Staff and the

15     president of the SDS would be present in the area of the municipality

16     where this would be happening.

17        Q.   And when -- being, yourself, a citizen of Bijeljina, were the

18     Serbs endangered in Bijeljina in April 1992, as Arkan says here?

19        A.   No, not to that extent.  [No interpretation].

20        Q.   I didn't hear what the witness said.  There was no translation,

21     at least not that I could hear.

22        A.   Should I repeat?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We didn't hear after:  "No, not to that

24     extent."

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that the situation was not

Page 15485

 1     as serious that would require anybody from outside to intervene.  I think

 2     that only an intervention by the police at the proper time would bring

 3     about a calming down of the situation.  There was no need to resolve the

 4     situation with weapons, and there was no need for all the killings that

 5     happened at the time and after that.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, thank you.

 7             I would like to have this admitted.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Do we have the indication of the time?  Do you have

 9     that with you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  It's 34:30 to 36:26.  It's right in

11     the beginning of this item.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2857, Your Honours.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to move on now to

15     the video-clip 65 ter 45048, and that is the sequence from 00:01:00 to

16     00:04 -- oh, no, the other one.  Yes.

17        Q.   There is nothing said here, but, Mr. Davidovic, looking at this

18     particular still, where is this parade or what I sort of call this, where

19     is it taking place?

20        A.   This is a review of Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan's unit, in

21     Bijeljina, in front of the Municipal Assembly building, and in the

22     background you can see the monument that was erected.  And we looked at

23     that footage a little bit earlier.

24        Q.   And do you know the flag that is being carried?

25        A.   This is the flag of Arkan's guard, of his unit.

Page 15486

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we move on a bit in this video?

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The person that you can see here at

 4     the front is Vojkan Djurkovic from Bijeljina.

 5        Q.   And what role did -- I think you have described the role of

 6     Vojkan Djurkovic quite extensively in the statement, so we don't need to

 7     go into more details.

 8             Can we please move on.

 9                           [Video-clip played]

10             THE WITNESS:  Stop. [Interpretation] Stop.

11             You can also see the unit that is on review, and you can see the

12     area where the mosque used to be.  It was demolished in

13     1983 [as interpreted], in the second half of 1983, and to the left is the

14     youth hall.  And if you play the video a little bit more, you would be

15     able to see the court building.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, the transcript reflects that you said "in 1983."

18     Is that a misspoken --

19        A.   I apologise, 1993, 1993.  The mosque was demolished in 1993, and

20     I think this footage was recorded in 1994 because you can see the grass

21     growing at the location where the mosque was, so sometime -- this is,

22     then, some time later.  This review was held in 1994.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we just go on a bit.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE WITNESS:  Stop.  [Interpretation] Stop.

Page 15487

 1             This is the court building.  You can see it clearly now.  This is

 2     between the court building and the youth hall.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can now go on playing it until we see a

 4     reward.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Karadzic.  The person is

 7     reporting or saluting.  Arkan is standing next to him.  I didn't see the

 8     person who saluted him and reported first.

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Sir, the Battalion of the Serbian

10     Volunteer Guard is lined up in your honour.  Ranks ready for inspection

11     for the guard and for you as the commander of the guard.  Thank you very

12     much.

13             Mr. President, gratitude for you being there.  This is not the

14     end.  This is the beginning.  Thank you very much, Mr. President.  Would

15     you be so kind to say a few words?

16             "I am deeply thankful and I congratulate you, and I hope that we

17     will meet again in peace and you will always have a place in the heart of

18     those you have defended.  Thank you.

19             "Mr. President, in the name of the Serbian Volunteer Guard, I

20     wish to say two words to you, which is that we're ready, if you call us,

21     and that we will be back to defend our ancient homeland, to defend our

22     woman and children, to defend the Serbian territory and our Orthodox

23     religion.  Thank you, Mr. President."

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We can stop here.

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, were you aware of this event in Bijeljina?

Page 15488

 1        A.   I heard of it, but I wasn't there.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to have this video

 3     admitted.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Exhibit P2858.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, you mentioned the details of your activities to

 7     establish law and order in Zvornik, Bijeljina and Brcko in the summer of

 8     1992.  I would like to put to you now some lists -- payment lists related

 9     to groups that were paid, and the first one to show you is 65 ter 14641.

10             And as it is coming up:  It is a payment list for TO members in

11     April 1992.

12             Mr. Davidovic, while preparing for your testimony, did you review

13     this document?

14             And can we have the next page in the B/C/S, please.

15             Did you review this list?

16        A.   Yes, yes, I did, I looked at everything individually and the

17     payrolls that were shown to me later, as such.

18        Q.   And, Mr. Davidovic, can you read the handwritten note on the top

19     right in this first page?

20        A.   "Payment carried out following conclusions of interim government

21     number ...," such and such.

22        Q.   Were you aware that such an interim government existed in

23     Zvornik?

24        A.   I knew that there was a crisis staff.  They said they had a

25     government of sorts, but I believed it was all the Crisis Staff.  Later,

Page 15489

 1     I had the opportunity to see a document showing that they already had a

 2     government, a separate government, that they had suspended all the laws,

 3     and so on and so forth.

 4        Q.   And do you know who was heading this interim government or the

 5     Crisis Staff?

 6        A.   I think it was Mr. -- I can't recall his name right now.  I

 7     cannot remember his name.  I know the name, but at the moment I really

 8     just can't --

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, no problem.

10             Can we please have page 6 in the English and page 5 in the B/C/S.

11        Q.   And we see here that the payment is approved by Stevo Radic.  Do

12     you know which body this gentleman represents?

13        A.   No, I don't.  I think that that was the president of the

14     Municipal Assembly or of the Crisis Staff.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we have the next page, please, in

16     both languages.

17        Q.   And there is reference to members of a unit from Loznica.

18     Loznica, is this in Serbia?

19        A.   Yes.  These are members of the paramilitary formation, volunteers

20     who had come and who were being paid by the Crisis Staff, from their

21     fund.

22        Q.   And were you aware that there was a group from Loznica in Zvornik

23     and the region at that time?

24        A.   When I arrested the Yellow Wasps group then, I also arrested

25     people from Loznica, Mali Zvornik, Sabac, and so on and so forth.

Page 15490

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can we have this document

 2     admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2859, Your Honours.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 00633 brought up

 6     on the screen, please.

 7             And as it is coming up:  It is a pay list as well for the -- we

 8     have here a pay list, if you briefly look at this one.

 9             And can we also have the next page, please.

10             Yes, yes.  This list that you see -- can we just go back to the

11     previous page.

12        Q.   These people listed here, do you know them, some of them?

13        A.   Well, this Marko Pavlovic, who was chief of the TO -- actually,

14     I think these were TO employees who received some compensation for

15     something.  I don't know what for, but I think that there is a reference

16     to members of the TO Staff, the one that was headed by Marko Pavlovic.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can we have this document

18     admitted, please?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2860, Your Honours.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now like to have 65 ter 00673 be

22     brought up on the screen, and it is another pay list.

23        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, would you please read the handwritten words on the

24     top right of the B/C/S version, what it says?

25        A.   It says:  "The 2nd Tank Company."

Page 15491

 1        Q.   And did you know that the Zvornik TO had a tank unit?

 2        A.   They had a few tanks, and they were making some kind of armoured

 3     train, and this armour was supposed to protect it from bullets.  And then

 4     with these two tanks and with this armoured train, they would go to

 5     liberate Kalesija, as they said, and then move further on to Tuzla,

 6     within the Territorial Defence -- or, rather, these paramilitary

 7     formations that were headed by the Yellow Wasps, and this Pavlovic, they

 8     actually had multiple rocket-launchers and other weapons.  I think that,

 9     objectively speaking, the Territorial Defence does not have that kind of

10     thing, and it should not.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can this be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2861, Your Honours.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now have 65 ter 00671 be brought up

15     on the screen.  And it is -- it's actually two other pay lists.

16        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, as it refers here to Commander Zuca, who would

17     that be?

18        A.   That is actually the paramilitary unit of Dragan Vukovic,

19     nicknamed Zuca.  That's the Yellow Wasps; that's the criminal group that

20     did some work for the TO Staff, and later when they became renegades,

21     when they became a classical paramilitary formation, they did what they

22     did, and then they had problems with it.  But probably we will be dealing

23     with that later.  But these are Zuca's paramilitaries or the

24     Yellow Wasps.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have the last page in both

Page 15492

 1     languages.

 2        Q.   Looking at the handwritten note -- the last page in both

 3     languages, please.

 4             Mr. Davidovic, looking at the handwritten note that is on there,

 5     are you able to who is authorising the payment to this group?  --

 6        A.   Approved by the commander of the staff of the TO; that is, that

 7     man Pavlovic, the one that is mentioned as commander of the TO Staff.

 8     It's a false name.  He is not the person that he was introducing himself

 9     to be.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can this please be admitted, Your Honour?

11             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't follow, Mr. Davidovic, when you referred to

12     a false name.  Could you explain to me that?  What did you mean?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This Pavlovic who was commander of

14     the TO Staff, he came from Serbia and he introduced himself by the name

15     of Pavlovic.  Actually, he was not that Pavlovic.  He used that name

16     falsely.  Allegedly, he said that the State Security Service had sent

17     him.  However, I never received any official confirmation from the

18     State Security of Serbia.  But he did come from Serbia.  Later on, when

19     we arrested him and when he was brought before a court of law, his true

20     name was established, he said who he was.  I was also a witness before

21     the court in Belgrade when the Yellow Wasps were being tried, and he was

22     one of those persons tried then.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             We'll admit this as Exhibit P2862.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now have 65 ter 00682 on the screen.

Page 15493

 1     It's another pay list with reference to Zuco.

 2        Q.   On top -- Mr. Davidovic, on top of this list there is a -- there

 3     is an abbreviation.

 4             Can we have this -- the top -- the very top.  Yes.

 5             This abbreviation, "PB-Grupa, Zuca," "1st PB," what does it stand

 6     for?

 7        A.   Roman numeral I says that this is a separate or a special combat

 8     group, Zuco; that is, this elite group, Vojin Vuckovic's brother, Dusko,

 9     and Miroslav, they were basically the core of the command of the

10     Yellow Wasps.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this be admitted?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2863, Your Honours.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to have 65 ter 00683 be brought

15     up on the screen, please.  And it is another payment list, and it is, as

16     it says here, to Pivarski's group of the 2nd Battalion.

17        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you know this Pivarski group?

18        A.   This unit, Pivarski, actually, their commander was

19     Stojan Pivarski.  He was a member of the Army of Republika Srpska,

20     I think, and as far as I knew, in the beginning.  Later on, he withdrew

21     from the front-line, and in town he joined the Yellow Wasps and he placed

22     himself under the command of the Yellow Wasps.  He was also arrested

23     among the people I arrested when I arrested the Yellow Wasps, because he

24     said that he was a member of the Yellow Wasps and that he was under their

25     command.

Page 15494

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2864, Your Honours.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The next item is 65 ter 00660, and if that

 5     could be brought up.

 6        Q.   And as we can see here, there is reference to "Beli Orlovi" or

 7     "White Eagles."  Mr. Davidovic, were you aware that White Eagles were

 8     also participating in that area?

 9        A.   Yes, and they came, among others, as volunteers.  Allegedly, at

10     first when they arrived, they were with Captain Dragan.  Later on, they

11     joined the Yellow Wasps.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can that be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2865, Your Honours.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to ask 65 ter 23167 be brought

16     up on the screen, please.

17             And as it is coming up:  Your Honour, it is a certification in

18     relation to a number of similar documents.

19        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, while preparing for your testimony, did you review

20     a number of very similar documents related to payments or support of

21     certain military formations in the months April to June 1992?

22        A.   Yes, I saw a large group of these documents that you showed me.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the second

24     part of the sentence.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

Page 15495

 1        Q.   Can you repeat the second part of the sentence?  The interpreter

 2     didn't hear it.

 3        A.   They paid these paramilitary formations, the TO Staff paid them;

 4     volunteers, as they called them.

 5        Q.   And is that -- what we see here, is that when you reviewed these

 6     documents, and is this your signature?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we have the next page, please.

 9        Q.   And did you make comments in relation to the lists that you saw,

10     and are they reflected here?

11        A.   Yes, yes, these are my comments in relation to the list that you

12     showed me.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would request the admission

14     of this certificate and also the documents listed in the certificate.  It

15     is much more efficient to do it this way.  But if you prefer to have all

16     the lists be brought up, we can, of course, do that.  But it would be

17     much more efficient to simply admit the document and the certificate.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber would be assisted by hearing from the

19     Defence.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             I was thinking about this, and it seems like this is essentially

22     a Rule 92 ter statement with associated exhibits, although it's being

23     presented as sort of an addendum to it.  But it's the same.  They could

24     have actually put all this material in the text of a 92 ter statement and

25     used all of them as associated exhibits.  So with that perspective, we

Page 15496

 1     don't really object to them doing this.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can I also say something in

 3     addition?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We, indeed, had first -- had thought about

 6     just merging it into the amended -- the amalgamated statement.  But as we

 7     had produced it already to the Court and to the Defence, we thought

 8     this -- it would be better to do it this way and not add a block to the

 9     amalgamated statement.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Given the position taken by the Defence and that the

11     nature of these documents are limited to a similar kind, we'll admit

12     this.  They will be given numbers in due course.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we admit in one go or do you like each

15     document to be admitted separately?

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would suggest that each document be

17     admitted separately.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And I just want to refer to one fact.

20             The very last document is slightly different.  It's not a pay

21     list.  It is, rather, a document from the interim government, referring

22     to a particular unit.  If you would rather have this separate, then

23     I can, of course, do that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Then why don't you deal with that document, and

25     we'll admit the remaining --

Page 15497

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  All the documents.  That will be done by the

 3     Court Deputy in due course.  Thank you.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             Can we then have 65 ter 00685 be brought up on the screen.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  685?

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  685, yes.

 8        Q.   And is that also one of the documents, Mr. Davidovic, that you

 9     looked at?

10        A.   Yes, yes.

11        Q.   It is a permission by the head of the interim government,

12     Branko Grujic.  Does this name ring a bell with you?

13        A.   Oh, yes.  I couldn't remember a moment ago.  Later on, I

14     remembered.  I wanted to tell you at the very end.  He was actually

15     president of the Crisis Staff.  It says "Provisional Government" here.

16     This shows unequivocally that they secured funds for the purchase of

17     material for the manufacturing of uniforms that they were supposed to

18     give to those units.

19        Q.   And Igor Markovic Special Unit, do you know what unit that is?

20        A.   This is someone who got killed at the end of the war.  They

21     immediately named the unit Igor Markovic in the beginning, but later on

22     they grew into the Yellow Wasps and this name, Igor Markovic, was never

23     mentioned.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this be admitted?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 15498

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2867, Exhibit P2866 being the

 2     certificates, Your Honours.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour -- no, thank you.

 5        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, in your statement you referred to an individual

 6     with the name of Branislav Filipovic, and his association with

 7     Mirko Blagojevic.

 8             And, Your Honour, just for reference, this is in paragraph 118.

 9             In this context, I would like to have 65 ter 06926 be brought up

10     on the screen.

11             And, Your Honour, you will see we have now a few documents that

12     are in a bit of a bad quality, at least in relation to the B/C/S version.

13             Mr. Davidovic, what do we have here?

14        A.   This is a pass issued in the name of Branislav Filipovic,

15     allowing him to leave the battle zone and Brcko municipality.  It says

16     that he is a volunteer.  Otherwise, he was a member of the Radical Party,

17     Mirko Blagojevic.

18        Q.   And can you see who is issuing this pass?

19        A.   Well, the War Presidency, that's what it says here, the

20     municipality, but I cannot see who signed it.  It's illegible.

21        Q.   And for what purposes were such documents needed and issued?

22        A.   Well, because at the entry points into Brcko and Bijeljina, and

23     all along the road between Brcko and Bijeljina, there were

24     check-points manned by police, paramilitaries, or the military; it

25     doesn't matter.  You were supposed to show an ID and a pass showing that

Page 15499

 1     you were allowed to be on the road on some mission.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this please be admitted?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             Does Mirko Blagojevic's name appear on this pass?  You mentioned

 5     his name in your answer.  Do you understand my question?  Mr. Davidovic,

 6     you said:

 7             "Otherwise, he was a member of the Radical Party,

 8     Mirko Blagojevic."

 9             Did you mean Mirko Blagojevic was the president of the

10     Radical Party?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mirko Blagojevic was president of

12     the Radical Party in Bijeljina; that is to say, the

13     Bijeljina Radical Party had its own unit, and Branislav Filipovic, among

14     others, belonged to that unit at the start of the war.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             This will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2874, Your Honours.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 06970 on the

19     screen.

20        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, what are we seeing here?

21        A.   The Crisis Staff is providing a certificate to

22     Branislav Filipovic, allowing him to move freely, without any limitation.

23     And this guarantee is provided by the Semberija and Majevica SAO

24     Crisis Staff.  Mirjana Simic travels with this person, his common-law

25     wife, if I can put it that way.

Page 15500

 1        Q.   And for which Crisis Staff is Mr. Savic signing this?

 2        A.   Well, on behalf of the Crisis Staff of Majevica and Semberija; or

 3     rather, the SAO of Majevica and Semberija.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we have the next page in the B/C/S.

 5     There is only a small note there.

 6        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, who is signing this, the back side, and on -- and

 7     what stamp does it show, what reference is made?

 8        A.   This was signed by some person named Dobrica Peric for

 9     Petar Bacic.  Petar Bacic was a reserve policeman.  He was an active-duty

10     policeman.  Then he retired, and then he was activated again in order to

11     have the check-points manned.  And down there you see a stamp of

12     Republika Srpska, or, rather, the SDS, the Serb Democratic Party.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this be admitted?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2875, Your Honours.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now have 65 ter 07848 be brought up

17     on the screen.

18        Q.   It is very hard to read, but can you tell us what we are looking

19     at?

20        A.   This is a receipt that was received by the Military Command,

21     I think, of the town of Belgrade, the command of the defence of the city

22     of Belgrade.  I think, 132/2, the 20th of June, and then various types of

23     ammunition are referred to here further down; mortars, Zoljas, Osas, and

24     other types of weapons.  Actually, this is just ammunition that was given

25     to them.  I don't know who, it just says "FI."  I don't see exactly who

Page 15501

 1     this was given to.  However, this receipt was issued by the Command of

 2     the Military District from Belgrade for a certain type of ammunition.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can this be admitted, Your Honour?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2876, Your Honours.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, just so that you can see, in

 7     the --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask something?

 9             Do we have in Serbian the same thing that we have in the

10     translation?  I did not see "Brcko" anywhere, and I don't understand

11     whether this is a translation of this particular document.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I just wanted to also mention

14     that in the English translation, we can read a lot more.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And I have tried to get a better copy, but

17     obviously it was not possible.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Can we collapse the English and zoom in on the B/C/S

19     a bit further?

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let's give it a try.  Upper part.  We can zoom in a

22     bit further.

23             Could you read the handwritten parts there?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says "5" or "S," but I think it

25     is "OSS-10," and then "MOK Srbije, and then in parenthesis "TO," and I

Page 15502

 1     can't see the rest.  And then down here, it says, "KODB."  I assume that

 2     it's the command of the district either of the city of Belgrade or of

 3     State Security.  I cannot read it.  The number is "3-132/2 of the 20th of

 4     June," and I cannot see anything else.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  If we go to the very end of this document,

 6     Your Honour.  Zoom in on the -- below this, please.

 7        Q.   Can you make out who receives it?

 8        A.   It says "Fil," and then "VIC," and the signature is illegible.

 9     The stamp is of the Military Post of Belgrade.  And "Miroslav Radic --"

10     no, "Radisavljevic" [phoen], something like that.  I'm not sure.  I just

11     know the first three letters are "Rad," "Radi," and I cannot read the

12     rest.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] How do we link this up to Brcko?

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  At least according to the English

15     translation, there seems to have been a better version at some point in

16     time where you could read.

17             If you could go to the very top -- the very top again.

18        Q.   We can see there is, in brackets, a "TO," and then we can't read

19     the rest.  I would assume that --

20             JUDGE KWON:  But where do the interpreters get "Brcko"?  So your

21     assumption is there must be a better version of it?

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I tried to get a better version.  I even

23     asked whether we could have the original here in the courtroom, but it

24     didn't work out; at least not for now.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.

Page 15503

 1             On the back of this same receipt, there is this text.  And if you

 2     could turn the back of this document, this very same document, we can

 3     have a look.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  This is only --

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  There is nothing on the back.  We can try to

 6     bring the original in here and come back to it later.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Okay, very well.  I note the time.  Let's think

 8     about it during the break.

 9             We'll have a break for half an hour.  We'll resume at five past

10     11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.35 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Madam Uertz-Retzlaff.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15             Your Honour, we do have now the original in the courtroom, and

16     can this be -- please be put on the ELMO.

17             Can we have it with -- yes, yes, this first list part.

18        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, can you now see who is receiving this, or do you

19     now see the right-hand side reference?

20        A.   Yes.  It's supposed to be received by the Territorial Defence of

21     Brcko.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we please move down to the end so

23     that we can see the end.

24        Q.   Can you now see who is receiving this to hand it over?

25        A.   Branislav -- B. Filipovic took it, personally.

Page 15504

 1             I can add one thing.  Branislav Filipovic was in the theatre of

 2     Brdjani in the end, and he was killed after.  He never got to another

 3     theatre of war.  That's how I know it's all about Brcko.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, thank you.

 5             Your Honour, can this now be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It has already been admitted.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please think about up-loading a B/C/S version of

 9     better quality.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We could scan it again.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE KWON:  It has been done; okay.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now please have 65 ter 07169 be

16     brought up on the screen.

17             Yes.  Can we zoom in a bit more in the B/C/S version so it's

18     easier to read.

19        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, what are we looking at?

20        A.   This is a paper giving Branislav Filipovic - his ID number is not

21     clearly seen - approval to bring ammunition to Brcko for the anti-tank

22     gun.  The calibre is indicated - hand held rocket-launchers, Zolja, Osa,

23     and hand-grenades.  Lieutenant Predrag Manojlovic's signature is there.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have the B/C/S version, the

25     second page.

Page 15505

 1        Q.   There is a reference, Mr. Davidovic, to a Mitar Bolero.  Can you

 2     tell us who that is?

 3        A.   This is a telephone number, and it says "Mitar Bolero."  That's a

 4     person from Brcko, where the Radical Party headquarters were, headed by

 5     Vojvoda Blagojevic.  And this man, Bolero, was a member of the

 6     Radical Party, and his own house was there.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this be admitted, please?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we -- could we get the date

 9     of this document?  It is important.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, there is no date on it, but

11     perhaps Mr. Davidovic can help us.

12        Q.   You said that Mr. Filipovic was killed.  Do you know when he --

13     approximately when he was killed?

14        A.   I think sometime in July or August.  More likely in August 1992,

15     or perhaps earlier.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   In fact, it wasn't August; it was earlier.  It could even been

18     the end of May or June, because I was in Sarajevo when I heard of the

19     death of Brano Filipovic in Brcko.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What the Defence is interested in

21     is whether this was a JNA garrison or the VRS garrison.

22             JUDGE KWON:  That's a subject you can explore in your

23     cross-examination.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

Page 15506

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2877, Your Honours.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we now please have 65 ter 13255 be

 4     brought up on the screen.

 5        Q.   And as it is coming up:  Mr. Davidovic, you have mentioned

 6     Mirko Blagojevic a couple of times, and you also referred to him in your

 7     statement, where you mentioned that he, in fact, at some point in time

 8     protected Muslims in Bijeljina.  Do you remember that?

 9        A.   Mirko Blagojevic was president of the Serbian Radical Party in

10     Bijeljina.  I'm talking exclusively about Bijeljina in the period I know

11     about.  Mirko Blagojevic was a very positive character during the war, in

12     terms of protecting the Muslims, their lives and protecting their lives.

13     Mirko Blagojevic was emphatic in opposing the decisions of the

14     Crisis Staff and the SDS to move the Muslims out, to expel them or kill

15     them.  He fought this by public statements, public appearances and

16     speeches, all of which encouraged the Muslims and gave them some trust in

17     him as their defender.  Whoever would like to say any different, this

18     simply is a fact.  That's what happened in Bijeljina.

19        Q.   Looking at this document here, it is an announcement of

20     Blagojevic related to the murder of the Sarajlic and Sejmenovic families.

21     Are you aware of this declaration and his request for an investigation?

22        A.   Yes, I know that public announcement, because it was the only one

23     about the killing of two families.  When those families were taken to the

24     Drina River and liquidated, the local authorities tried to cover that up.

25     They didn't want it to go into the public or anyone to know about it.

Page 15507

 1     There was a decision of the Presidency at the time to prohibit any public

 2     statements by political parties in the media, so Mirko Blagojevic used a

 3     ruse and he wrote this public statement as the commander of

 4     Serbian Chetniks, making it sound like it was coming from a military

 5     unit.  And the radio editor, Pero Simic, decided to release this, and,

 6     indeed, it was broadcast on the radio that these two families, Sejmenovic

 7     and Sarajlic, were killed by the Drina River, and there was a whole story

 8     about it.

 9        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, Mr. Blagojevic blames the murders on the RS MUP

10     Special Unit.  Do you know or did you come across information who

11     murdered these families?

12        A.   In my earlier testimony in the Krajisnik case and the

13     Mico Stanisic case, I said, more than once, that members of the police,

14     headed by Dusko Malovic, a special police unit, in the sole jurisdiction

15     of Mico Stanisic, the interior minister, were brought to Bijeljina and

16     installed there.  And Dusko Malovic told me personally, a month later

17     when I returned from Pljevlja, where I was with my unit, that what had

18     been done had been done on the orders of the Crisis Staff and the chief

19     of Public Security in Bijeljina, and this operation was meant to further

20     intimidate the Muslim population so that they leave Republika Srpska and

21     Bijeljina.

22        Q.   And when you say after you returned from this Pljevlja, when was

23     this, approximately?

24        A.   It could have been the end of July or early August when those

25     killings occurred.  I don't know the exact dates, but that's the period,

Page 15508

 1     in July or August.

 2        Q.   No.  I was asking about your conversation with Mr. Malovic.

 3        A.   That could have been in September or October that year, 1992.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would request the admission

 5     of this document.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2878, Your Honours.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 18846 be

 9     brought up.  However, before that is done:  We have a public redacted

10     version and an unredacted version.

11             And before we do this, can we go briefly into private session?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15509











11  Page 15509 redacted. Private session.















Page 15510

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

18        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, under paragraph 2 in both languages, and

19     continuing, actually, if we now also go to the page 2 in both languages,

20     there is quite a detailed description of personalities and their actions;

21     in particular, their crimes.  Did you have time to review this?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And what is mentioned here, is it an accurate description of the

24     events at the time?

25        A.   Yes, that's the situation which is reported.

Page 15511

 1        Q.   And there is -- in the middle of the page in both languages,

 2     there is a reference to Colonel Nikola Dencic and his co-operation with

 3     Zuco.  Do you know who this officer is and whether he co-operated,

 4     indeed, with Zuco?

 5        A.   Nikola Dencic was the corps commander.  He was colonel

 6     quarter-master.  He was, as I said, the corps commander, and he had a

 7     security officer, Dusan Atanackovic.  They were very closely tied to the

 8     Yellow Wasps, because I know that during the war they used to come to

 9     Ugljevik, and at the prison there, a make-shift prison in a boiler room

10     in Ugljevik, Zuco and his brother, Repic, used to come and beat the

11     prisoners.  And this make-shift prison held mostly Croats and Muslims who

12     had been detained at check-points between Bijeljina and Tuzla, and every

13     non-Serb would be stopped and, without any reason whatsoever, taken to

14     that prison.  And I know that he did that together with this security

15     chief.  I know people -- other people came in to beat the prisoners, and

16     mistreat them, and make them sing Chetnik songs.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just be of assistance?

18             The Chamber cannot see the threat that was made.  It was redacted

19     by mistake.  It should be seen in English.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we have the next page, please, in both

22     languages.

23        Q.   And there is a reference to a visit of Karadzic and Mladic on the

24     30th of June -- the 30th of June, it says, 30th of June.  And a

25     discussion is mentioned about the training centre in Divic.

Page 15512

 1             Mr. Davidovic, are you aware of the training centre in Divic, and

 2     do you know anything about a concern about this training centre that

 3     Mladic or Karadzic had?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think this should be

 5     allowed.  It doesn't follow from the document.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  In the document, there is, indeed, a

 7     reference to the training centre, Captain Dragan's volunteer training

 8     centre.  And then as we follow through, General Mladic is making comments

 9     related to it.  And I'm just asking the witness whether he knows anything

10     about this training centre and concerns.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed.

12             What is your concern, Mr. Karadzic?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's leading.  Which was done by

14     Karadzic and Mladic, this does not follow from the document.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I see a reference to General Mladic and you in the

16     document.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's the translation which had --

18     by Karadzic and Mladic.  This is a leading question which does not follow

19     from the document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I see a passage -- yes, Mr. Robinson.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

22             I think the way the question was phrased, a training centre that

23     Karadzic or Mladic had, may have given the wrong impression that they

24     were the operators of the training session, as opposed to the concern

25     that they had about the training centre, because I, myself, when I first

Page 15513

 1     heard the question, thought it was implying that Dr. Karadzic and

 2     General Mladic had some training session -- or centre.  But it appears

 3     that the question was intended to address the concern that they had about

 4     training centres, so I think that may be the cause of the confusion.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.  On that basis, we can

 6     proceed.

 7             Yes, Mr. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 9        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you know about this training centre and that

10     there were concerns about it?

11        A.   I was aware that there were -- and I will be free enough to say

12     there were several training centres in Divic, and paramilitary formations

13     gathered there.  Divic was a location which was like a dead-end in

14     Republika Srpska.  You could not enter it from any side by the Muslim

15     forces, because it's in the Drina area between Serbia and Bosnia.

16             At the beginning of the war, a training centre was formed in

17     Divic, led by Captain Dragan, who was sent from Serbia, with the aim of

18     training volunteers.  And then they were sent from military units, and

19     younger, more fit and capable people were sent to be trained at the camp

20     by Captain Dragan.

21             I know a person who went to a training course, and then later he

22     was returned as not being fit enough to go and complete the whole

23     training.  Later, people were sent there.  Also Vuckovic, he spent some

24     time in Divic.  And then later, when the Yellow Wasps came, there was a

25     special unit there of the Republican MUP, led by Karisik, who also spent

Page 15514

 1     some time in Divic.  So Divic is referred to in all these military

 2     reports and information.  I know General Mladic was against paramilitary

 3     formations.  I don't know whether he went there or not, and I don't know

 4     if this has anything to do with Mr. Karadzic, whether they went there

 5     together to visit it.  That's something that I really cannot help you

 6     with.

 7             This was a period when all kinds of things were being said.  They

 8     were there perhaps to improve the rating of the centre, itself.  But I

 9     don't know, really, if they were actually there or not.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, thank you.

11             Can we please have the next page and in both languages.

12        Q.   There is, in the beginning -- in the first paragraph, there is a

13     reference to a man with the nickname Crni, and that -- the problems with

14     him.  Do you know this person and what the problems were?

15        A.   A person with the nickname Crni came from Serbia, and he was in a

16     part of the unit that was stationed in Bosanski Samac.  This group, among

17     others, came to Bijeljina as well.  At one time, I think they also

18     attempted or actually carried out a rape.  As far as I know, some 10 or

19     20 days ago, the Special Prosecutor's Office from Belgrade initiated

20     proceedings against some persons, even for one person with the name Crni.

21     I assume that is that group of persons that actually carried out a lot of

22     crimes, mistreatments, killings.  They harassed and abused some women.

23     They committed crimes in Republika Srpska.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this document be admitted,

25     one the full version under seal, and the other one --

Page 15515

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 2             We don't have an objection to this, but I just want to note that

 3     it's on an exceptional basis because it could be said this constitutes

 4     the statement of a third person and might not otherwise be admissible.

 5     Most of this is a report of an interview with an individual, but in this

 6     particular case we don't object because we feel it's more advantageous to

 7     us than detrimental.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We'll deal with it when the issues arise.

 9             We'll admit this.  We'll give separate numbers for both versions.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P2879, under seal, and Exhibit P2880,

11     Your Honours.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we just establish that the

14     threat there was to kill?  In the English version, this is redacted, but

15     in the B/C/S version --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, because we have both versions, we can

17     compare that later on.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it's been redacted in the

19     English.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We have an unredacted version in our exhibits.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You're correct.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

24             Can we now have document D00450 brought up on the screen, please.

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, it is a note by the RS MUP to several CSBs,

Page 15516

 1     inter alia, Bijeljina, of the 19th of July, 1992.  Did you have an

 2     opportunity to review this document?

 3        A.   Yes, I had the opportunity to look at the document when I was

 4     preparing for my testimony with the OTP.

 5        Q.   And in the beginning, there is a reference made to a meeting of

 6     MUP executives in Belgrade on the 11th of July, 1992, relating to

 7     problems with paramilitary units; in particular, their crimes.  Do you

 8     know about this meeting and who attended?

 9        A.   I know that there was a MUP meeting that was held.  It was a

10     meeting in Bosanska Villa, attended by the minister, his deputies, his

11     assistants, and the chiefs of the CSBs and of the administrations,

12     certain administrations within the ministry.  It's a little bit unusual

13     to have a ministerial -- ministry meeting in a different state, in

14     Belgrade, but this is possible too.

15        Q.   And the problems referred to in this document, are they

16     consistent with what you, yourself, were aware of and saw on the ground?

17        A.   Yes.  What I was saying is accepted.  Actually, it's been

18     confirmed.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we have a look at paragraph G.

20     That's the next page, I would think.  And in the English, it is D,

21     paragraph D.  In the B/C/S, it's G.

22        Q.   If you look at what is described here, a reference to the

23     treatment and custody of prisoners, and the reference to collection camps

24     into which the army brings Muslim residents, do you know about such

25     collection centres, as they are called here, and treatment of prisoners

Page 15517

 1     in detention facilities?

 2        A.   At the beginning of the war, the crisis staffs adopted a decision

 3     to exert pressure on the Muslim population, in the sense of their

 4     mobilisation and engaging militarily in the Serbian Army ranks.  And then

 5     there was a series of questions put with some people who were opposed to

 6     this.  And then as far as I know, within the army's jurisdiction a

 7     decision was made to form collection centres, or, as they called them in

 8     the beginning, labour camps, where certain Muslim persons would be

 9     placed.

10             At the time, I asked Colonel Ilic, the colonel of the corps who

11     came after Dencic, what was the meaning -- why these camps were being

12     formed, on what grounds, what would they be used for.  And he said

13     pursuant to the model during World War II, when the Americans also placed

14     all the Germans who were in Germany to some collection camps so that they

15     would not be used by their enemies, that was the reason why they were

16     doing that too, these people were being placed into these military camps,

17     certain persons.

18             However, later the camps, as they called them, collection centres

19     or labour camps, turned into something else.  Citizens were being brought

20     here, mostly of Muslim ethnicity from Brcko, Zvornik, Bijeljina, all the

21     other places in Central Bosnia, and in the beginning these people were

22     taken for work duties.  But later, when the International Red Cross

23     arrived, they did not release them.  They were registered.  This was

24     already in late 1992/early 1993, and they could not manipulate to the

25     extent that they could at the beginning.

Page 15518

 1             As for MUP and this document, what they meant by handing over

 2     these camps to MUP organs of Republika Srpska, that is not clear to me.

 3     What does MUP have to do with these camps, and why would they be handed

 4     over, even though I know that when we're talking about the Yellow Wasps

 5     in Zvornik, Celopek, they were holding Muslims in the Dom who were

 6     brought from Muslim settlements, especially from Kozluk.  They were

 7     placed there.  At that time, the "milicija" was providing security and

 8     guarding them.  There was no "policija" at that time.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.  Your Honour, this is already in

10     evidence so there is nothing to be done here.

11             I would like to call up now P1500.  The document is also already

12     in evidence.

13             And as it is coming up:  It's an order from Ratko Mladic, dated

14     the 28th of July, 1992.

15        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this document when you came

16     here, Mr. Davidovic?

17        A.   Yes, I did have the opportunity to see it.

18        Q.   And the assessment that General Mladic gives here on the

19     paramilitaries, is that a correct assessment, according to your own

20     observations?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not understand the witness.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23        Q.   Could you please repeat your answer?  The interpreters didn't

24     hear you.

25        A.   It's absolutely true, the overview of the situation, and it

Page 15519

 1     corresponds to the actual situation.

 2        Q.   General Mladic also refers to their association with profiteers

 3     and authorities.  In relation to Bijeljina, who would that be, the

 4     authorities and the profiteers?

 5        A.   The local powers, the local government, crisis staffs, and those

 6     who can work within those crisis staffs and have permission to carry out

 7     certain jobs that are outside of the jurisdiction of the army.  This

 8     would be trade, the import of different articles, such as fuel,

 9     cigarettes, alcohol, other items of that nature.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have the next page in both

11     languages.

12             And in the B/C/S, please, the previous one.

13        Q.   General Mladic orders what is supposed to happen with those kind

14     of paramilitaries, including joining them to the regular army, arresting

15     and disarming them, and so on and so forth.  Do you know why this joint

16     action, that was executed in July 1992 and not already earlier?

17        A.   This order did yield some results, in the sense of attempting to

18     arrest the paramilitary formation members and to place them under the

19     command of the army.  However, this was not successful for the simple

20     reason that the paramilitary formations had the support of the local

21     authorities, crisis staffs, certain high-ranking functionaries, and when

22     the army opposes them and if there was a conflict, they were always then

23     released, freed, and they would continue to do whatever they were doing.

24     So I don't think that this order managed to create any particular

25     results.

Page 15520

 1             The same thing went on until the end of the war.  There were

 2     always paramilitary formations who committed different crimes, and nobody

 3     could oppose them, although I know for sure, and I'm repeating a number

 4     of times, that General Ratko Mladic was always against these paramilitary

 5     formations, but he could not confront them.  He even stated that

 6     paramilitary formations were -- the Serbian Volunteer Guards and other

 7     units, that they waged war as much as they wanted, and they were

 8     protected by those whose existence suited them.  So, in fact, there were

 9     no results in the sense of trying to establish command or subordinate

10     them to the military.

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question?

12             JUDGE KWON:  You just overlapped with the interpretation.  Could

13     you repeat?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             Can we establish whether this is the same document, because the

16     one in the English has numbers of paragraphs which are not there in the

17     original and I don't recognize the contents.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move to the last page, page 3.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  When you -- yes, there are the numbers.

20     Yes.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think this is, more or less, all

22     right now, but we didn't see the last typewritten page.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, thank you.  This document is already in

24     evidence.

25             I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 08106 be brought up on the

Page 15521

 1     screen, please.

 2             And as it is coming up:  It is a report drafted by

 3     Danilo Vukovic, related to the work results, 26 June to 25th July 1992.

 4        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you know of this report?

 5        A.   Yes, I'm familiar with the document, and I am one of the

 6     drafters.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can it be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Was that all of your question, whether ...?

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  He was one of the drafters, therefore the

10     question, Is this a correct description of what happened?, seems a bit

11     strange, but --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, yes, it will be admitted.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2881, Your Honours.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would ask that Exhibit 65 ter 00651 - I

15     see it's P00036 - be brought up on the screen.  It is already in

16     evidence.

17        Q.   This report now by Mr. Dragan Andan, is that something you know

18     from that time, and is it correct?

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll not broadcast this.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On what basis?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 15522

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

17        Q.   Just, Mr. Davidovic, what is described here about the activities,

18     is that correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 18844 be brought

21     up on the screen.

22             And as it is coming up:  It is a document dated 8 August 1992,

23     from the Public Prosecutor in Zvornik to the Lower Court, and charging a

24     number of persons, including Vojin and Dusko Vuckovic.

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you know this document?

Page 15523

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   How do you know it?  Did you know it at that time already?

 3        A.   I was interested in the proceedings against Zuco.  I'm thinking

 4     of Vojin, Rade, all the others against whom charges were submitted.  And

 5     when I came to the Bijeljina SUP, I asked them to show me the charges,

 6     and to see what was done about that, and why the case was not processed.

 7     And that is why I'm familiar with all the details about what happened and

 8     what the reason was for these criminal proceedings to be kept quiet

 9     about.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this be admitted?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, could you help us with this?  It says

12     "Public Prosecutor," and also refers to MUP.  Is the Public Prosecutor

13     subordinated to MUP?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The MUP is a special

15     organisation that works on uncovering crimes, and a criminal report is

16     provided to the Office of the Prosecutor, and it is not subordinated to

17     the MUP in any way.  It is even above the MUP, in a way.  And it is the

18     Prosecutor's Office that processes all these criminal reports that are

19     filed.

20             JUDGE KWON:  The MUP is copying this report to the

21     Public Prosecutor?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  We write what had

23     happened and what the reason was for filing a criminal report, and then

24     the Prosecutor's Office decides whether there is criminal liability or

25     not and whether they are ultimately going to initiate proceedings or not.

Page 15524

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I now understand it.

 2             This will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2882, Your Honours.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 5        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, you spoke about Bijeljina and the Zvornik crisis

 6     staffs in your statement, and I would just want to put to you one

 7     document in this context.

 8             65 ter 02552, can this be -- please be brought up.  We would need

 9     the -- yes, yes.  Can the -- yes, thank you very much.

10             Mr. Davidovic, it is a conclusion of the Zvornik

11     Interim Government of the 20th of April, 1992, appointing a Commission

12     for Negotiations.  These persons listed here, do you know them.

13        A.   I know them.

14        Q.   And this Ljubisa Mauzer, it's called "Mauzer" here, he is from

15     Bijeljina or not?

16        A.   He's from Bijeljina.  You can see here the conclusion of the

17     provisional government.  When Arkan came to Bijeljina with a group of his

18     warriors, or members of his unit, when he went to Zvornik, he took along

19     some people from Bijeljina as well who, at the time when Arkan had a

20     training camp on the Drina River, he took along those people as well, who

21     joined him to attack or, rather, liberate Zvornik.  A large number of

22     group -- a large group of Muslims in Zvornik wanted to move towards

23     Tuzla.  They were asking to be allowed, irrespective of all the movable

24     and immovable property they had, to be allowed to leave.  And I'm sure

25     that this commission was established with the intention of negotiating.

Page 15525

 1             I'm surprised to see Ljubisa Mauzer -- Ljubisa Savic, nicknamed

 2     Mauzer, on this commission when he's not from the area of Zvornik and he

 3     has nothing to do with it.  He just happened to be there, and, well, he

 4     was this military leader who, if I can put it that way, was supposed to

 5     help the government in Zvornik to deal with this more easily.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this be admitted, please?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A question, please.

 9             It would be a good thing if we had a signed copy with a stamp, or

10     if, as it says here, it was published in the bulletin of the Serb

11     Municipality, then its authenticity could not be denied, and even more so

12     because "Savic" is the last name of Ljubisa Savic.  "Mauzer" is only his

13     nickname.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we can check for this, but --

15             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow his last.  What about Savic?  Could

16     you -- yes.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, number 2 there, "Ljubisa Mauzer,"

18     the person's actual name is "Savic," and "Mauzer" is like a nickname, and

19     so he's questioning why an official document would include a nickname of

20     an individual, and that has some bearing on its authenticity.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I know that all goes to the matter of weight, which

22     can be explored in his cross-examination.

23             We'll admit this and move on.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2883, Your Honours.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 07346 be brought

Page 15526

 1     up.  And it actually relates to the man, Mauzer.  It's an interview with

 2     Mauzer on 15 June 1992.

 3        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, did you have an opportunity to read this interview

 4     during your preparations?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   What kind of this publication is this:  "List SAO Semberije

 7     i Majevice"?

 8        A.   This is a paper that was being issued by the Crisis Staff of

 9     Bijeljina.  In actual fact, it was supposed to cover the territory of the

10     newly-formed SAO Majevica and Semberija.  In the area of

11     Republika Srpska, well, as they say, there are different regions that

12     it's being divided up into, SAO, MAO, et cetera, and then they get their

13     own regions, Semberija and Majevica.  So it's Bijeljina, Brcko, Lopare,

14     Ugljevik, Zvornik, and more or less all of that up to Bratunac and

15     Srebrenica, Sekovici, Milici, all of those locations in that part of

16     Bosnia.  And these are special defence preparations.

17        Q.   Is there a -- what do you mean, that these are special defence

18     preparations?  What do you mean by saying this?

19        A.   When I say "defence preparations," a civil war was in the making.

20     It was obvious, it seemed inevitable.  All of that could be seen from

21     what the politicians were saying and what the media were saying.  They

22     said -- they kept on saying that there would be a war, inevitably that

23     would be --

24             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... unless certain agreements were

Page 15527

 1     to be reached, and they never seemed to be able to reach these

 2     agreements.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 4        Q.   The interpreters didn't get a part of your answer.  It is here

 5     stated:

 6             "They kept on saying that there would be a war, inevitable that

 7     would be ..."

 8             And then they lost you.

 9             Could you complete the answer?

10        A.   It would be hard, a difficult war.

11        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, do you know this journalist, Pero Simic?

12        A.   Yes, I know him well, I know him well.  He was the editor of this

13     Semberija newspaper, and he was one of the initiators of this

14     misinformation in the territory of Semberija.  It wasn't only him, but he

15     was one of the key persons there.  They called him a small-scale

16     Goebbels.

17        Q.   And when you say "misinformation," what do you mean?

18        A.   The untruths that were presented in these newspapers.  Different

19     things were being written there; for example, some Muslims who lived in

20     Bijeljina, prominent Muslims, people I knew, that allegedly now they

21     joined the Muslim military formations and that they were taking people

22     into war, and that at Majevica they had established lines that were

23     supposed to be taken, and that actually they were in charge of this war,

24     that they were waging this war.  All of this was preconceived in order to

25     attain the desired objective to sow fear, panic, uncertainty for

Page 15528

 1     something that would be inevitable, and that is the war that would

 2     follow.

 3             Then in the media, they came up with these violent programmes,

 4     propaganda, various wrong news, like the ones I mentioned to you now, and

 5     then also patriotic songs, Chetnik songs, Get ready, Chetniks, we are

 6     going to slaughter all those who don't wish to join us.  All of this was

 7     supposed to show that we would not allow ourselves to lose the war that

 8     would inevitably follow.

 9        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, when you look at the first page here, Mr. Savic,

10     Mauzer, speaks of Bijeljina, a peaceful and normal life, and he speaks --

11     he says this in mid-1992.  Is that -- was there a normal and peaceful

12     life at that time?

13        A.   Oh, no.  He's saying that it's a peaceful town, and he's talking

14     about people moving out and population exchanges.  How can it be a

15     peaceful town when one-third of the Muslim population had already left,

16     or was expelled, and others were being expelled and taken out during the

17     night and taken to the separation lines?  He thinks that it's a peaceful

18     town because they are keeping silent and obediently following orders,

19     without resisting what they are being told.  Rather, they take this

20     docile attitude and simply obey whatever they're asked to do.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we look at the -- in the English, it

22     must be now the second page.  The B/C/S is correct.

23        Q.   We have here Mauzer speaking of a large enclave of Muslims living

24     and working normally.  Is that a correct description or not?

25        A.   No, that is not correct.  This is a total lie.  What it says here

Page 15529

 1     is incorrect, and they are trying to present before the public a picture

 2     that is wrong, saying that everything is peaceful and that all is well.

 3             I can give you a few details that are important, in terms of what

 4     was going on in Bijeljina at the time, what was happening to the Muslims.

 5        Q.   Yes, but very briefly, because we have quite an extensive

 6     statement to this effect.

 7        A.   Very briefly.

 8             The Muslims were being called upon to respond to the military

 9     call-up through military departments, to be members of the Army of

10     Republika Srpska.  When they refused that, then these Muslims are

11     immediately laid off, not able to work any longer.  They're telephones

12     are being disconnected, and those who oppose this publicly or suggest to

13     their other compatriots who are also Muslims to do that, then they take

14     them to Batkovici.  As for Muslims who cannot go to Tuzla, or if they

15     don't have enough money to pay for this and money is being taken for

16     their alleged exchange, then attempts are made for eminent Muslims, all

17     of those who are educated, who are intellectuals, they are humiliated so

18     that they would see what their place is then; for example, the principal

19     of the music school or, for example, the previous deputy from the SUP,

20     then the director of the construction company, Rad, then Dr. Jahija.  And

21     many others, who were leading intellectuals, were being engaged to sweep

22     the streets.  They were simply trying to show them what their place is.

23     Can you imagine a doctor, a pediatrician, who is being sent to the market

24     with a little bag, or a director of the music school, swearing a suit and

25     a tie, who is sweeping the street?  Can you imagine what effect this has

Page 15530

 1     on the Muslims?  When he says that the situation is fine, that is what

 2     was actually happening.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

 4             I would like to have a video-clip played, and I really hope it

 5     works now.  65 ter 40578, and we play the section 00:49 -- 49:40 to

 6     00:52:30.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "This is one of the many new

 9     admission centres in Tuzla, last night, one hour before midnight.

10     Following the 1400 expelled Bosniaks from Semberija who were accommodated

11     in the other admission centres in Tuzla and the neighbouring towns

12     yesterday, soon this hall will be prepared to admit new victims, who will

13     come in the course of the night from Mount Majevica area.  It is

14     midnight.  Bus after bus is arriving to Tuzla during this rainy and

15     chilly night.  Those who are coming are women, children, old people, and

16     only now and then a man fit for military service.  Others have been

17     separated from their families by Chetnik gangs and imprisoned in camps.

18     There are Bosniak families arriving, who were once well off but now all

19     their property has been seized and looted, and who even had to pay a lot

20     in foreign currency and gold for deportation tickets, for night walk in

21     rain and through Majevica woods, past minefields.  Even seriously

22     disabled, poor old grannies, and paralysed Munevera Bajramovic.

23     Hopefully at least someone in this dormant world will ask to whom had

24     Munevera Bajramovic posed an threat, same as Zade Manjic's twins, also

25     from Janja.  They don't even have names yet, they're just born, yet these

Page 15531

 1     days the brother and sister from Manjic family will get border passes and

 2     number for toddlers.  Lord, may in Bosnia justice prevail at last.  These

 3     people are not handball or basketball game spectators, these people are

 4     expelled Bosniaks from Janja waiting for mattresses and sponges to be

 5     pulled down on the hall floor - the ill fate and constant companions of

 6     Bosniaks in the current days of horrible genocide committed against them

 7     by Chetnik military leaders from Pale.

 8             "People are waiting.  Another Tuzla admission centre hall is

 9     slowing filling up.  The second hour past midnight is passing.  This

10     night another 427 expellees have arrived from Semberija.  The people with

11     terrible scars on their soul, physically and emotionally broken.  The

12     only thing that criminals at least spent peacefully -- they're getting

13     ready to at least spend peacefully their second night in exile.  The

14     first night, they spent surrounded by gangs of Vojkan Djurkovic, Rista,

15     and other war criminals in the trucks on Majevica Mountain.  It is the

16     19th of September of the war year 1994.  Tuzla, one hour past noon, yet

17     another bus from Majevica and yet another group of Bosniak expellees.

18     The Janja tragedy is getting to an end, and now its turn for final ethnic

19     cleansing of Bijeljina, while the world is still talking about the

20     dictators from Haiti."

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, did you have an opportunity to see this footage?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   During the events, were you aware about the forcible removal of

25     non-Serbs from Janja in September 1994?

Page 15532

 1        A.   Well, I did know about that, of course.  How could I not know

 2     about that?  I lived there with my family.  I came there every weekend

 3     when I was not in Belgrade.  Every day, I asked people what was going on

 4     and where the end would be.  First, Bijeljina was done.  80 per cent of

 5     the Muslims had already been taken out of the town of Bijeljina.  And

 6     then in September, they moved on to Janja.  Janja tried to hang on.  They

 7     even tried to feed the Army of Republika Srpska.  After all, these are

 8     hard-working farmers who can provide lots of food.  But even that could

 9     not help.  Quite simply, their turn had to come, I mean, their turn to be

10     transferred to other parts of -- from Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   And what is described in the video, the way that this was done,

12     is that what you -- is that consistent with what you also observed or got

13     to know?

14        A.   Oh, yes.  This was a time-tested method.  Lists were made, and

15     these lists were being given to Vojkan Djurkovic.  At the time, the

16     police was withdrawing from the streets.  No one dared oppose him.  He

17     went from house to house, knowing which houses belonged to Muslims, and

18     he took people out of their houses, took them into trucks.  What do you

19     think?  What can you do when they give you a ten-minute dead-line to

20     leave your house and everything you have?  What did people take?  They

21     take their personal IDs, they take their diplomas, if any, a bit of

22     clothes, and money or other valuables they have.

23             When they gather 300, 400, or even more than that, they take them

24     to Suvo Polje.  That is where they put them up, search them in great

25     detail.

Page 15533

 1             I have to admit that even old women were subjected to

 2     gynaecological examinations, women of over 80 years of age.  They were

 3     looking for money wherever they could.  When they get all of that, then

 4     they put them onto buses or trucks or -- and then take them to Brcko or

 5     Majevica, to the separation line.  They let them leave the trucks from

 6     the Serb side, and then they go towards Muslim territory.  And what

 7     happened then was that the Muslims would not take them in immediately

 8     either, because sometimes this happened late at night, so they waited

 9     until dawn to see who these people were.  So when these people were being

10     expelled or deported from Republika Srpska, they would spend a night or a

11     day or two or three in no-man's land, and then they would finally get

12     through and be taken in by the Muslims.  And that is how families were

13     reunited.

14             Also, there were cases of organised transfers through the MUP,

15     going through Serbia, and then they were taken in the same way.  They

16     were taken to the army between -- at the border with Hungary.  The

17     Hungarians would not take them, and then after a few days the

18     International Red Cross would come and get them and take them to other

19     European countries.  That happened on a daily basis from the beginning of

20     April, then May, June, until the end of the war.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.

22             Can we have -- can this be admitted, Your Honour?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be admitted.  But you are not minded

24     to tender the interview with Mauzer into evidence?

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  I forgot.

Page 15534

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Any observation, Mr. Robinson?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Both will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter 07346 shall be Exhibit P2884, and the

 5     video will be Exhibit P2885, Your Honours.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 65 ter 00625 be brought

 7     up on the screen.

 8        Q.   And as it is coming up, Mr. Davidovic, we have already referred

 9     to people being moved out via Serbia, and what we have here is an

10     interview with Marko Pavlovic, dated the 30th of June, 1992, to the -- to

11     "Borba" in Belgrade.  Did you have an opportunity to read this article in

12     preparation of your testimony?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes, I did.

14        Q.   Mr. Pavlovic is speaking about the situation in Kozluk and the

15     wider area, and is speaking of the massive moving out of Muslims, and he

16     says that he would not know why they want to leave, given their freedom

17     of movement.  Did you know about this moving out in summer 1992 of quite

18     a huge number of people from Zvornik; in particular, Kozluk?

19        A.   Well, I did know that from the area of Kozluk, they had picked up

20     all the Muslims and reached some kind of agreement there allowing them to

21     go unhindered via Serbia, not to Europe, but, as they said, to reunite

22     with their families.  So the people from Kozluk, led by Banjanovic at the

23     time - he was an assemblyman who was some kind of leader of theirs - they

24     were given some kind of consent to go from Kozluk to Zvornik, and then

25     they put them all up at the dom in Celopek.  In Celopek, they were taken

Page 15535

 1     by the reserve police in accordance with the decision of the

 2     Crisis Staff.  They were securing this building in Celopek.  And then

 3     when I went to arrest the Yellow Wasps, I had an opportunity of seeing

 4     armed persons standing by the Dom.  I didn't know that these people

 5     persons were there at the time.  It was only later that I heard that

 6     these persons were put up there and later transferred somewhere towards

 7     Europe or the Federation.  I don't know how they left the premises.  I

 8     heard that in that building, some persons were even taken out and killed

 9     by Zuco's members, especially some journalist of the "Duga" weekly, which

10     was particularly very brutal.  He did horrible things to people there.

11     He cut off their ears and --

12        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, let's stay with the people from Kozluk that were

13     moving out.  Mr. Pavlovic says here that they -- they left voluntarily

14     and they exchanged their houses.  Did the Muslims leave voluntarily?

15        A.   Who could they exchange their houses with?  How come?  Who --

16     whoever is a normal person, we all have our homes and our families.  Who

17     will say, of his own free will, I'm going to hand all of this over, this

18     is where I live, this is where my nearest and dearest were buried, my

19     ancestors?  How are they going to say, We voluntarily want to leave this

20     area?

21             People were saving their lives.  Let's try to survive.  We are

22     offering everything to you, our houses, our movable and immovable

23     property.  We're giving you everything.  Just let us live, and let us

24     reunite with our families, and let us leave this area.

25             So people just tried to leave this hell, one way or the other,

Page 15536

 1     because they had no other way out.  That is why they left all their

 2     property.  They voluntarily handed it over to the Serb Army and everyone

 3     else, and then they just left.  What reasonable person would want to

 4     leave everything that they had earned over the years, or even the

 5     previous generations, too?

 6             Am I clear when I say all of this?

 7        Q.   Yes, definitely.  Mr. Davidovic, what we also find in this

 8     article, and it's a little bit further down in the English, Mr. Pavlovic

 9     states that it would be best for the people to be moved into enclaves,

10     for the properties to be exchanged, and for these enclaves to be

11     nationally homogenised so that at least temporarily there are as few

12     nationally-mixed places.  What Mr. Pavlovic is saying here, did you hear

13     these kind of views expressed by others as well?

14        A.   Well, Mr. Pavlovic is saying what the Crisis Staff and the

15     politicians expect him to say.  You shouldn't think it's up to an

16     individual, that it's all the responsibility of this Marko Pavlovic.  He

17     just came from the outside and placed himself at the disposal of the

18     Crisis Staff to implement policies they had charted.

19             I can say with certainty that it was the policy of the SDS to

20     have the Muslims moved out.  It was not only in Brcko or Bijeljina or

21     Zvornik.  It was not even their decision.  That happened in every area of

22     Republika Srpska wherever the SDS was in power.  It was a planned

23     operation.  It could not have happened spontaneously in such an identical

24     way everywhere.  The Crisis Staff did nothing more or other than putting

25     in place the instructions they had been given.  It's not a coincidence;

Page 15537

 1     it was a rule.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would request the admission

 3     of this document into evidence.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2886, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I note the time.  It's time to have a break, if it

 7     is convenient.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Thank you, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for an hour and resume at 1.30.

10                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.

11                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

14             Can we please have 65 ter 645 on the screen.

15             And as it is coming up:  It is a newspaper article in the

16     newspaper "The Independent," dated the 19th of July, 1992.

17        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, did you have an opportunity to read this article

18     when you prepared for the testimony?

19        A.   If you allow me just to read it.

20             Yes, I've seen it, yes.  I'm sorry, I wasn't seeing it right from

21     the beginning.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have the second page in

23     English and the third page in the B/C/S, please.

24        Q.   On the top of the page in the B/C/S, and rather further down,

25     second-last paragraph in the English, there's reference to

Page 15538

 1     Mr. Banjanovic, and you mentioned him already, that he took part in this

 2     removal of the Muslim population in Kozluk.  What role did he actually

 3     have in it?

 4        A.   As far as I know, he was an activist earlier, either of the

 5     Socialist Alliance or some other organisation in Kozluk, and he did have

 6     a certain influence on the inhabitants of Kozluk.  He was their

 7     ideological leader.  He participated in negotiations in Kozluk.  They

 8     contacted him.  I know Pavlovic told me that he was sorry he didn't kill

 9     him.  It's a no-good man who cheated everybody and escaped.  And the

10     Muslims, nevertheless, managed to leave, thanks to him, and to pull out

11     with as few losses as possible.

12        Q.   And Mr. Banjanovic states here that he told the villagers, on the

13     25th of June, that they had only one hour to get ready to leave, and that

14     they faced only two options: to flee or to stay and be killed.

15             Mr. Davidovic, in relation to your own observations, were these

16     the options that the Muslim villagers had?

17        A.   Yes.  They were given an hour, and even that is a lot.  So he

18     still managed to get an hour.  Otherwise, usually when Vojkan Djurkovic

19     was assembling people, then he would give 10, 15 minutes at the most.

20     This time, they were given an hour, in their version.  Yeah, it's a lot.

21        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I would like now to move on to Brcko, and for this

22     I would like to have Exhibit 65 ter 07113 be brought up on the screen,

23     please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And you are tendering this "Independent" article?

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Sorry.  Yes, I forgot.  Yes, I would like to

Page 15539

 1     tender it.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2887, Your Honours.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 5        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, it is a summary of events and situations, with an

 6     assessment of the degree of achievement, related to Brcko.  Did you

 7     have -- did you have the opportunity to review this document in

 8     preparation of your testimony?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.

10        Q.   Were you aware of this document during the events in 1992?

11        A.   When I came to Brcko in 1992, the Crisis Staff informed me about

12     this review of events in order for me to be able to get into the problem

13     more easily.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And if we please look at the last page in

15     the B/C/S, and the same in the English.  No, sorry, not the last page;

16     the second-last page in the B/C/S, the previous one.  The English, it

17     should be the last page, yes.

18        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, who is signing this report?

19        A.   I don't know who could have signed it.  I'm not familiar with the

20     signatures.  But I assume that it was Beli.  He was the deputy -- he was

21     the president of the Brcko Crisis Staff.  He was a deputy.  They called

22     him "Beli," I called him "Beli."  He was a deputy in the

23     Republican Assembly of Republika Srpska.

24        Q.   And this document has no date on it.  When did you get this

25     information during the events, so that we can narrow it down a bit?

Page 15540

 1        A.   May/June 1992, in late May or early June.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have page 1 in the English and

 3     page 2 in the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   In the second paragraph in the B/C/S, and in the third paragraph

 5     from the bottom, there is a -- there is a reference that there is a

 6     threat to the Serbian population in the municipality.  Knowing the area,

 7     do you know whether there was such a threat and what this threat was?

 8        A.   In view of the overall situation before the war in Brcko, the

 9     ethnic structure was as follows:  The Muslims were the most numerous,

10     followed by the Serbs and then the Croats.  Since the Muslim and the

11     Croat sides were linked up, they felt that they were endangered.  And in

12     view of the proximity of Croatia, they felt that they were in an

13     unfavorable situation.  And because of that, they felt that they were in

14     danger and that they needed help, and that was the reason why they asked

15     for help from the Crisis Staff in Bijeljina.  And that assistance was

16     given.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have page 3 in the English and

18     page 5 in the B/C/S.

19        Q.   There is -- on this page, there is a reference and a description

20     of the various troops arriving to help out in Brcko, and there is also

21     reference to Semberija and the two formations; in particular, those of

22     Mauzer and those of Mirko Blagojevic.  Do you know whether forces from

23     Bijeljina participated in the events in Brcko, and which?

24        A.   As it happened, I was in Bijeljina when Bijeljina and the

25     Crisis Staff were preparing to extend assistance for the liberation of

Page 15541

 1     Brcko.  And I say "liberation" in quotes.  I was in a commission in

 2     Croatia, and then I got some days off, so it was either before or after

 3     or on the 1st of May, that holiday, very likely that it happened in that

 4     period.  I went to town, and it just happened that I met -- or I

 5     encountered a large gathering of people on the square.  I could see

 6     uniformed units arriving, also members of the active and reserve police

 7     forces, soldiers, members of the military reserve who had been mobilised

 8     that day.  I could see that the people who were coming were running to

 9     the reporting place, taking the most basic things with them, carrying the

10     summonses in their hand to report to somebody.  I could see that the

11     person in charge there was Mauzer, with a bullhorn, and the Crisis Staff

12     leadership from Bijeljina was next to him.  Dr. Novakovic was there as

13     well, Milan Novakovic, the president of the SDS, deputy, all of those who

14     were persons who counted in Bijeljina, if I can put it like that.

15     Arkan's people were there, Pejo, Sasa.  Legija was there, many of those

16     whom I knew from Belgrade from the police.  People were wearing police

17     uniforms.  A number of Arkan's men were wearing police uniforms with the

18     insignia of chief inspectors even though that is not a rank that they

19     ever held.  There were interesting details there that I was interested

20     in.  What's going on, I asked.  What is this, what sort of review is

21     this?  They said, well, they're getting ready to go to Brcko to liberate

22     it.  I said, From whom?  They said, Well, there are Muslims and Croats

23     over there, the said, so that the people from Bijeljina can finish this

24     whole thing up.

25             Before they set off, I could see that they were all lined up on

Page 15542

 1     the square, and they made a solemn oath.  All of them were crossing

 2     themselves.  Those who had not been baptised and were Orthodox were given

 3     the opportunity to be baptised.  There was a priest there.  I told him --

 4     I told him, What are you doing?  I'm not familiar with these terms; I'm

 5     an atheist.  So the priest was baptising everybody.  And among the

 6     members of the active police there were Muslims, there were people whom I

 7     knew, subordinate policemen.  I had known them from before.  I was a

 8     superior officer of that organ, so, more or less, I knew all of those

 9     people.  Some of them noticed me, but I was standing to the side, near

10     the courthouse, near a corner.  I didn't want to be too obvious.  After

11     the line-up was finished, they entered trucks and buses, and they were

12     going in to go and liberate Brcko.

13             It's a paradox, it's an interesting piece of information.  They

14     were followed by about 100 small TAM trucks.  These trucks were following

15     them.  Later, I found out that after Brcko was liberated, lots of things

16     were taken and piled into all of those trucks and brought back after the

17     action to liberate Brcko was over.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.

19             Can we have this document admitted, Your Honour?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P2888, Your Honours.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now ask Exhibit 65 ter 07711 be

23     brought up on the screen.

24             And as it is coming up:  It's an extraordinary report of the

25     East Bosnia Corps, chief of intelligence organ, of the VRS Main Staff --

Page 15543

 1     sorry, to the chief of the VRS Main Staff, of 29 September 1992.

 2             Mr. Davidovic, did you have an opportunity to review this

 3     document in the preparation for your testimony?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   This document is -- originates from a

 6     Captain Simeon Guduric [phoen].  Do you know this person?

 7        A.   Just by name in passing.  I never had any direct contacts with

 8     him.

 9        Q.   In the bigger paragraph on the first page, he states that the

10     town was flooded with different patriotic-oriented individuals, who used

11     devotion to Serbism as an excuse for robberies, rapes and murders, and he

12     also refers to his belief that group had support of the then military and

13     civilian authorities.  Would that be a correct assessment or not?

14        A.   Yes, quite correct.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can we have this document

16     admitted, please?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2889, Your Honours.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20        Q.   I forgot to ask you something in relation to this document.

21             In this document, there's also a reference to murders in Luka.

22     Were you aware of the Camp Luka and who was detained there?

23        A.   Before I came to Brcko, I was informed at the Crisis Staff that

24     there was a group of people detained in Luka.  According to the same

25     system, in order to achieve full control over the Muslims, there was a

Page 15544

 1     kind of labour camp which served to place those who were undesirable

 2     there; mostly Muslims.  Before I came, I heard that individuals would

 3     barge into the camp in Luka, where they were liquidating people.  I heard

 4     that this was done by the Red Berets and another paramilitary

 5     organisation, Bozic brothers.  All of these groups felt they had the

 6     right to do the things that are stated in this report.

 7             When we came, I will say that when we entered Brcko, when we took

 8     over the internal affairs organ, the municipality and other institutions,

 9     we went to the Luka, in Brcko - it was after midnight, 2.00,

10     3.00 a.m. - and we found about 60 detainees.  Among them, there were

11     children.  I ordered the doors of the hangars to be opened.  People came

12     out.  It was night, it was nightmarish.  People didn't know what was

13     going on.  There was shooting from all sides, and nobody believed it.  It

14     was night.  There was firing.  In order to say who I am, I said, I am the

15     legal government.  What does it mean at that point in time, to say that I

16     am the legal authority, legal government?  It means that I'm an active

17     police officer, that I am speaking, stating my first and last name,

18     talking about the police representing the legal state.  I said that it

19     was war, that people should flee, they should hide, because when they

20     leave here, I cannot guarantee their safety, and let them do the best

21     they can to find some safe shelter.

22             After half an hour, nobody was there anymore.  They had all gone.

23     I assumed they went to their friends', acquaintances'.  I don't know

24     where they managed to go.  In any case, we set a curfew.  There was no

25     more moving around.  There were no more arbitrary arrests.

Page 15545

 1             I didn't see the people who were in Luka at the time, but later I

 2     had people coming up to me after the fact and thanking me.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Davidovic, just one other camp I would like to

 4     speak to you about, and that's the Batkovic Camp.  And you have spoken

 5     about it already, and also in your written statement, you have

 6     information about that.

 7             Can we please have 65 ter 11292 be brought up on the screen.

 8             Mr. Davidovic, it is an order of the 2nd of July, 1992, of the

 9     East Bosnia Corps Command to establish a camp.  Do you know which camp

10     that relates to?

11        A.   I read the order.  It pertains to the Batkovic Camp.  I think at

12     the time the proposal originated from Dencic.  Later, it was taken up by

13     Colonel Ilic.  And then they went to implement it, to ask the

14     municipality for an area where they could have a collection centre or, as

15     they described it, some kind of labour camp.  Later, it turned into a

16     real camp.  And then they were offered a space in Batkovic by the

17     Semberija enterprise, where there was some hangars and stables, hangars

18     to place the equipment in and the stables or the barns for the livestock.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters note:  We did not hear the

20     last sentence by the witness.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, could you please repeat the last sentence, because

23     the interpreters couldn't hear that.

24        A.   To form the camp there, if that's what they mean.

25        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, here we have the date 2nd of July, 1992.  When did

Page 15546

 1     the camp start operating, or do you know that?

 2        A.   They began preparing it a little bit earlier.  It took some time

 3     to get the space, to build the fence, to build the doors, to create the

 4     minimum of conditions in order to be able to place people there, so it

 5     took some time before the camp began to work officially.

 6        Q.   And who was the first camp commander?  Do you know?

 7        A.   Yes, I do.  Milos, Marko.  Milos, Despot's son.  His name is

 8     Marko.  He lived in Nis, but he came from the Command of the

 9     Federal Secretariat of National Defence.  He transferred there, and then

10     he was given the assignment of forming a camp.  And he was among the

11     first of those to write the decree order, manner and instructions on how

12     to maintain order, discipline and responsibility in the camp.  I just

13     happened to know this man, and only after the war I heard from him.  He

14     said he was the commander of the camp.  I couldn't believe it.  He told

15     me some details here, and actually when I came here, I just happened to

16     see a document with his signature.  He was there very briefly, for a

17     month.  After that, he had to return to Nis because of a family tragedy,

18     and then he never returned.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this document be admitted?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2890, Your Honours.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

23        Q.   And as you just mentioned it, can we please have Exhibit 11777

24     pulled up on the screen.

25             Mr. Davidovic, is that the document that you were just referring

Page 15547

 1     to having seen?

 2        A.   Yes, that's the instruction for security commanders.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And can we have the last page of the

 4     document in both languages.

 5        Q.   Is that -- what we see here, the person signing, is that the

 6     gentleman that you referred to earlier?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P2891, Your Honours.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

12        Q.   You mentioned, in your amalgamated statement, several persons

13     that were taken to the camp.  Did you also manage to get someone released

14     from the camp?

15        A.   I never went to Batkovic.  I wanted to have nothing to do with

16     it, and I didn't want my unit to have anything to do with it.  However,

17     when I returned from Bosnia to the Federal Secretariat for the Interior,

18     Minister Bulatovic asked me, privately and officially, to try and find

19     one person there.  He was an electrical engineer, that man.  I was given

20     his name, Karakaj [phoen].  And Minister Bulatovic asked me to look for

21     that person.  He had some vague reports that he might be in Batkovic.  So

22     the first chance I got, I went to Bijeljina for a weekend to see if that

23     man was there and if I could reach him.  I went to Suvo Polje, where the

24     corps command was located.  I found the corps commander, Colonel Ilic,

25     and told him about my errand.  I must say I was on very good terms with

Page 15548

 1     Colonel Ilic, because in my position for the Federal Secretariat for the

 2     Interior, I had helped him earlier arrange some of his business.  So I

 3     made the request to look for that person, and if he's found, that be

 4     released and allowed to go to Serbia for a family reunion.  And he said,

 5     That will be done.  I will be given news, if any, and I be able to take

 6     that person with me.

 7             So I came the next day, around 3.00 or 4.00 p.m.  I found

 8     Colonel Ilic there.  The man had already been brought there.  That was

 9     the first time I saw him, and they just gave him to me.  I didn't even

10     have to sign a paper or anything.  I took that person to my home, gave

11     him a change of clothes, told him to have a shower, gave him my clothes,

12     and that night I took him to Belgrade.  I had no problems crossing the

13     border because I was wearing a uniform and I was never checked at the

14     border because everybody knew me, more or less.

15             So that same night, I was in Belgrade.  I called

16     Minister Bulatovic to tell him that that the man he had wanted to see was

17     in Belgrade.  I took him to Bulatovic's apartment.  I was told that his

18     family had come to pick him up a few days later.  I never heard any more

19     about it.  But if you need to know, I can try to find out and let you

20     know later.

21             That's the one occasion when I helped to get someone out of

22     there.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Mr. Davidovic.

24             Your Honour, this concludes the examination-in-chief.

25             However, there is the request to also admit the associated

Page 15549

 1     exhibits.  And I know Mr. Robinson mentioned, in the very beginning, that

 2     he would not want the exhibits that are listed in footnote 144 be

 3     admitted.  That's my understanding.  The Prosecution wishes to tender

 4     these statements that are mentioned in this footnote, for a variety of

 5     reasons.

 6             First of all, these documents confirm what the witness is stating

 7     in his amalgamated statement, as he describes the arrest scenario of the

 8     Yellow Wasps.  He describes how they were arrested, how statements were

 9     taken from them, and how it then developed.  The documents confirm the

10     number of people arrested, quite a number of persons, their names, names

11     that come up also on the various lists that we have discussed here in

12     court.  We could see these names.  We could see the dates when the

13     statements were taken.  We could see that the statements are focusing on

14     the group -- on the person's group affiliation, being the Yellow Wasps

15     and also others, and they also relate to car theft and the confiscation

16     of other goods, including also those confiscated from RS officials that

17     happened to come across these barricades that were managed by the

18     Yellow Wasps.  Therefore, I think it confirms the witness's evidence, it

19     confirms procedure.  And, therefore, I would like to have these

20     statements also accepted.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Those are all that are in footnote 144?

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, these are the ones in 144, and I

23     address them only because I know that Mr. Robinson did not want this to

24     be accepted.  Of course, we also want all other -- all other associated

25     exhibits admitted, and they are all described in details in the

Page 15550

 1     amalgamated statement.  They are listed in our submission -- our

 2     notification.  Some of them we have already addressed today here, but

 3     most of them not.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Can I hear from you, Mr. Robinson?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 7             First of all, we don't object to the associated exhibits, except

 8     for the 14 statements.  The reason we object to those is:  First of all,

 9     everything that Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff said is true about their contents,

10     but, nevertheless, you haven't been admitting statements of third

11     parties, and there's a good reason for that.  Number 1, it detracts from

12     our ability to have effective confrontation of witnesses providing

13     information to the Chamber.  And, secondly, it subverts Rule 92 bis,

14     which is the proper way for the Prosecution or any party to take a

15     statement of a witness and have it subject to the certification process,

16     and then seek to have it admitted.

17             So to admit statements of third parties under these circumstances

18     as associated exhibits we don't believe is proper, and we ask that you

19     not admit them.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

21             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, Mr. President, but if I -- if the Court

22     would permit me just to respond quickly, because I have been present

23     during the course of discussions about statements and whether they should

24     be admitted or not.

25             I just want to underscore I think this is a horse of another

Page 15551

 1     colour.  There's no effort here to subvert 92 bis or a suggestion that

 2     swallows the Rule.  It's a different matter.  Here, we're talking about

 3     an investigation under issue, what was investigated, what was the focus

 4     of the investigation, what information was obtained, what action was

 5     taken or not taken in response to that, and that presents a different

 6     matter.  And that's why the Prosecution is offering them in this

 7     instance.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit everything except for those 14

10     statements, and also that has not been yet tendered.  And then we'll

11     consider the admission of those 14 matters and issue our decision -- give

12     our decision in due course.  Very well.

13                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15             Mr. Davidovic, you will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his

16     cross-examination.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Good afternoon to everyone.

19             At the outset, I want to apologise to the interpreters because we

20     will produce a few documents that have not been translated.  We made a

21     priority list last week and sent it to the CLSS, but not all of these

22     documents have yet been translated.  So I ask for your understanding.

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Davidovic.

Page 15552

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, such a simple statement cannot be an

 3     excuse for not having prepared an English translation.  So I'll give you

 4     this warning again, and do your best.  We'll see how many untranslated

 5     documents you are going to present.  But if necessary, we will revisit

 6     the issue.

 7             On a separate matter, we, the Chamber, took a look at the

 8     Exhibit P36, which was put under seal, but we don't see the need to keep

 9     it under seal.  So --

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, that's right.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We are minded to lift --

12                           [Overlapping speakers]

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Yes, because also this

14     document, itself, does not refer to the protected witness.

15             JUDGE KWON:  That will be done.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With your leave, Your Excellency,

18     it is the CLSS that is over-worked and over-loaded.  We have done our

19     bit.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, can you tell us when you had your first contact

22     with this Office of the Prosecutor?

23        A.   I can't remember exactly, but it must have been four or five

24     years ago, maybe more.

25        Q.   At whose initiative?

Page 15553

 1        A.   At the request of the OTP of the Tribunal in The Hague.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I must remind you that we are speaking the same

 3     language, so we need to make a pause between question and answer.  The

 4     same applies to me, and I will probably err in this respect myself.

 5             What was your status then?  Have you ever had the status of

 6     witness -- suspect, and until when?

 7        A.   I was never a suspect.  I was never investigated or interrogated

 8     in any case.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you are testifying here both about

10     things you have seen or heard at the time there, or a long time later,

11     and things that you have learned from the Prosecution?

12        A.   Mr. Karadzic, before this Court, I am talking only about things

13     that I did myself, that I saw myself, and that I learnt in direct contact

14     with people as a police officer while gathering information that I needed

15     just because I needed to inform my superiors.  And I also had a personal

16     interest in the things that were going on and the situation that came to

17     prevail in the area of Republika Srpska because I was born there, I lived

18     my life there.  And until a year before the war started, I was one of the

19     highest-ranking officers in Bijeljina.

20             And let me add that nobody taught me, especially not the

21     Prosecution, what I should say.  I am not such a pliable man that I could

22     be led to say anything anyone wants.

23        Q.   So you have not testified about things that you heard as rumours

24     and gossip, and you have not testified about things that you first

25     learned about from the Prosecution?

Page 15554

 1        A.   I testified about the things that I've already stated.  And I

 2     also gave my comments about certain documents that were shown to me,

 3     specifying whether I had seen them before or it was the first time I was

 4     seeing them.  I answered all the questions on that basis.

 5        Q.   Earlier today, you mentioned that you realised certain things in

 6     the beginning of May.  Is it right that at the request of the leadership

 7     of Republika Srpska - let me not mention my own contacts with

 8     Prime Minister Panic - you came to Republika Srpska on the 26th of June

 9     on an assignment to help the police force of Republika Srpska to deal

10     with the problem of illegal armed paramilitary groups?

11        A.   When I was summoned by my superiors, primarily the minister of

12     the interior, Bogdanovic, we went together to the office of

13     General Petar Gracanin, who was minister of defence, and I was told then

14     that they designated me to go to Republika Srpska in Bosnia and

15     Herzegovina and to help the Ministry of Interior of Republika Srpska to

16     disarm paramilitary units, because allegedly you, together with

17     Prime Minister Panic of Serbia, at some meeting in Geneva or somewhere,

18     had asked Serbia's assistance in disarming the paramilitary units in

19     Republika Srpska, saying that you could not do it yourself, on your own,

20     and that you needed help.  So they designated that help to be me.

21        Q.   You got 15 men then, and you came to Republika Srpska and made

22     contact with the MUP of Republika Srpska; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Then you were very much involved in clearing up the situation

25     with illegal armed groups in Bijeljina, and then after that in Zvornik

Page 15555

 1     and Brcko, to considerable effect and results, mass arrests and

 2     elimination of these groups?

 3        A.   That's all correct, except that Brcko came before Zvornik.

 4        Q.   You mean just the order, the sequence of municipalities?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   While you were doing that, you were receiving expressions of

 7     gratitude and recognition by the leadership; correct?

 8        A.   In part, yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  When you over-stepped your authority, both in terms

10     of real jurisdiction and in terms of the degree of using force, and when

11     you got involved in some financial wrong-doing, that was the first time

12     you were removed from the service; is that right?

13        A.   That's not right.  What you're saying has nothing to do with

14     reality.

15        Q.   Did you continue to be involved in fraud and financial

16     wrong-doing even after the war?

17        A.   That's not true.  You are saying rubbish.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3645.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did the Lower Court in Bijeljina initiate a request to conduct an

21     investigation against you and a group of other people, wherein you would

22     be the first accused?

23        A.   After I first testified in The Hague in the case of

24     Mr. Krajisnik - I testified as a Prosecution witness - three criminal

25     cases were started against me; not only the one you are showing, but

Page 15556

 1     another two.  In fact, four in total.  They tried, among other things, to

 2     convict me for crimes like fraud and violent behaviour.  All these cases

 3     were stopped, terminated, some on the lower level, some at the level of

 4     the Higher Court.  One went to appeal, and the appeal reversed the trial

 5     judgement.  I kept all these judgements and I have them with me, and if

 6     the Court wants to see them, I'm happy to provide them.

 7        Q.   Well, according to the Public Prosecutor, the state wants to

 8     issue an indictment against this man called Mico?

 9        A.   This is not about theft or a crime.  It's about alleged

10     over-stepping of authority, because as chairman of the Executive Board, I

11     allowed that one apartment, owned by a certain company which was turned

12     into a squat -- I gave authority for forcible entry so that the apartment

13     can be evacuated.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   When did this happen?

17        A.   I can't remember correctly, but we can see it in the paper.

18     Let's look at the date.  I really can't see.

19        Q.   When did the incident happen, not the proposal to issue an

20     indictment?

21        A.   It could have been in 2004, not later.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the last page.  Can we see

23     the middle page.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   This is the proposal to indict and to schedule a trial hearing,

Page 15557

 1     and point 4 says:

 2             "To procure information about financial situation and criminal

 3     records for all the accused."

 4             Is that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1401, Your Honours.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   A month after this, on the 21st of March, 2005, did you assign or

11     transfer a considerable amount of your property to your daughter?

12        A.   I did not assign it.  It was a sale contract whereby she bought

13     my property.  And the reason was that the money to re-purchase the

14     apartment I got from my employer came from her in the first place.  It

15     was a sales contract that included the real value of the property.

16        Q.   If I understood correctly, she gave you the money to buy shares

17     in a state-owned company or -- a state-owned company, and then you were

18     returning the money to her?

19        A.   She had no guarantee that I would repay that money.  And her

20     husband wanted a guarantee, and that's why he asked that a sales contract

21     be made to protect her property.  I did not re-assign it to her just to

22     cover up something.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, if I could ask you again to put a

24     pause between your start of answering the question of Mr. Karadzic.  That

25     way, the interpreters will be very much benefitted.  Thank you for your

Page 15558

 1     understanding.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3638, please, in e-court.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This is a Land Registry excerpt, or a copy of it; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 3.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is a contract on sale of real estate concluded in Bijeljina

10     on 21 March, 1995, between Milorad Davidovic and Natasa Eric, daughter of

11     Milorad from Bijeljina.  Is that you and your daughter?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   "The seller hereby sells to the buyer the entire real estate

14     entered in the ..."

15             And so on and so forth?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   So a month after the Prosecution requested information on your

18     financial status, you sell to your daughter all the real estate that you

19     owned and that was registered under these numbers; is that correct?

20        A.   That's correct, Mr. Karadzic.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let us look at point 3:

22             "The seller hereby states that the buyer has paid in full the

23     amount of 429.871 convertible marks before signing this contract as the

24     selling price ..."?

25        A.   Yes.  And could you read on?

Page 15559

 1        Q.   " ... and therefore agrees and allows the buyer, on the basis of

 2     this contract, without his further knowledge or permission, to register

 3     ownership over the aforementioned plots of land as owner or occupant with

 4     1/1 share"?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I just give a comment in this

 8     regard?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] As for comments, please give us a

10     gift to Madam --

11             JUDGE KWON:  I will hear from you, Mr. Davidovic.  How is this

12     relevant, Mr. Karadzic?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, Mr. Davidovic said

14     that he was not involved in any kind of financial wrong-doing and that he

15     is not guilty of any such thing, but he actually accused tens of persons

16     and smeared their names.  It is very important, for the benefit of these

17     people, to know who it is that is smearing their good names, and also

18     this is important for his credibility as well as the reason for his

19     dismissal from the service.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Then you should allow him to comment on this.

21             Yes, Mr. Davidovic.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The criminal report that was filed

23     against me in relation to the order or decision of the board that I

24     presided over has to do with the entry into an apartment of a person who

25     is not the owner.  The company was the construction company Rad.  This is

Page 15560

 1     before this purchase contract was signed.

 2             Mr. Karadzic is trying to portray me as an unreliable witness

 3     whose -- or, rather, a person who is undeserving and who does not tell

 4     the truth.

 5             As for this wrong-doing that the Prosecutor accused me of, it is

 6     only a fine that is levied, and that is, indeed, what the Court did.  The

 7     Court was -- levied the fine of 500 marks, and that has nothing to do

 8     with my property, or any attempt on my part to conceal the property I

 9     had, or that would prevent the Court from disposing of my property and so

10     on.  These are completely different things.  This is a minor misdemeanor

11     that is being portrayed as some kind of grave crime.  Mr. Karadzic is

12     saying that I tried to conceal the property that I had, and I think that

13     that is in poor taste.

14             Secondly, after I testified as a Prosecution witness in the case

15     against Mr. Krajisnik, I had very serious problems and suffered very

16     serious consequences because of that testimony.  Rest assured that I'm

17     going to have some grave problems once this testimony is completed too.

18     A lot of these people still hold high offices and decide on important

19     matters, especially because in Bijeljina, where I live, the SDS -- from

20     the very outset, from the beginning of the war in 1991 -- or, rather,

21     1992, the SDS was always in power, and these persons have a great deal of

22     power.  Ever since I appeared in court in the case against Mr. Krajisnik

23     and in the case of Mr. Stanisic, they are trying to cast me in a negative

24     light and as a person who was involved in different kinds of wrong-doing.

25     I claim, with full responsibility, that I do not have a criminal record

Page 15561

 1     at all.  I have the relevant decision in this case that he referred to.

 2             As for him saying that I had smeared the good names of tens of

 3     persons, I think that that is highly tendentious, and I kindly ask the

 4     Trial Chamber to prevent this kind of exchange from taking place between

 5     Mr. Karadzic and myself.

 6             Secondly, I'm not a person who was dismissed from the service, as

 7     he had put it.  I was not dismissed from the service.  I was pensioned

 8     off, along with an appropriate decision, and the decision to pension me

 9     off was based on my protection of and assistance to Muslims, and that is

10     contained in these documents.  And in my apartment in Belgrade, I kept a

11     man, a Muslim --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the name.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] ... and the SDS and the police of

14     Republika Srpska, especially from the MUP of Bijeljina, when I left.

15     It's not when I was dismissed, as Mr. Karadzic said.

16             In my apartment, I was keeping this Muslim.  And in the Krajisnik

17     case, the Trial Chamber looked at the entire situation, and even during

18     the break the OTP was in Tuzla and they talked to the direct witnesses.

19     I retired because I had legal grounds for that and I had met all the

20     legal requirements.  I am not ashamed of anything I did.  If that was the

21     reason why I retired, then I say that with pride, that I protected this

22     man.

23             I did not come here as a protected witness.  I came here to tell

24     the truth.  What I'm saying are serious allegations.  I'm sorry, but this

25     is the painful truth, and that is the most painful of all.

Page 15562

 1             Mr. Karadzic, I am a Serb, a member of the Serb people - my

 2     father, my mother, my wife - and I do not allow you to impute things of

 3     this nature to me.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Davidovic, thank you very much, but please

 5     understand this is a criminal proceedings and Mr. Radovan Karadzic, as an

 6     accused who is confronting serious charges, has every right to

 7     cross-examine a witness and attack the credibility.

 8             So as a Presiding Judge in charge of conducting proceedings,

 9     we'll monitor that he should not abuse the proceedings.  But as far as

10     the Chamber allows, please try to answer the question as much as you can.

11             Do you understand, Mr. Davidovic?  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you.  I've understood

13     everything.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, I want to get to the truth.  All of us here should

16     get to the truth together.  And you said a moment ago that you say, with

17     full responsibility, that your difficulties are derived from your

18     testimony in the Krajisnik case.  When was it that you testified in the

19     Krajisnik case?

20        A.   I cannot tell you the exact date.  I cannot know exactly which

21     date it was, so could the Court please look this up?  I'm sure that you

22     have all of that in your archives.

23        Q.   It was June 2005, if you allow me to remind you.  Is that right?

24        A.   Possibly.

25        Q.   These proceedings against you were in March 2005, three months

Page 15563

 1     before that?

 2        A.   It's possible that that was the case.

 3        Q.   How could that report have been based on your testimony that

 4     happened three months later?

 5        A.   I don't know exactly when the report was filed, but it happened

 6     later, after I returned after having testified, that is.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Can this be admitted?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I'm not really sure which report he's now

13     referring to.  If that is the real estate sale contract, I really do not

14     see, at the moment, where that is related to the criminal charges in the

15     document before -- that we had before on the screen, although I couldn't

16     read it, but I don't really see that is related to the real estate sale

17     contract.  I see no basis at the moment to have the real estate sale

18     contract be admitted.  There is no relevance to it yet.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond?

21             JUDGE KWON:  In terms of the accused may shed light on this, in

22     terms of credibility, later on, in that sense we'll admit this.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1402, Your Honours.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   In the Lower Court in Bijeljina, were you found guilty of this?

Page 15564

 1        A.   Yes.  However, I was acquitted in the appeal.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3650.  Can we have a look at the

 3     trial judgement.  Can we just cast a glance at it.  We can put page 1 and

 4     2 on the ELMO, actually, because we actually do have a translation.  It

 5     has arrived, but it hasn't been up-loaded.  1D3650 in e-court, please.

 6     That's the Serbian version.  And on the ELMO -- we are going to place the

 7     translation on the ELMO.

 8             [In English] Could you lift it, please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You see this on your screen.  There is the first accused person,

11     the second accused person, and so on.

12             Can we have the next page, please.

13             Number 6, they have been found guilty, all of them have been

14     found guilty; right?

15             [In English] Next page in English, please.  "Are guilty," down

16     there.

17             [Interpretation] That's the judgement, isn't it?

18        A.   Are you asking me?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Yes, yes, yes, and a fine was imposed.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             Can this be admitted?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted as Exhibit D1403.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25        Q.   And then you appealed this decision, and then you say you were

Page 15565

 1     acquitted of all charges; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3649, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So the second-instance court, the District Court in Bijeljina,

 6     does it not say the appeals of Davidovic, Milorad, and others are being

 7     dismissed?  So it was dismissed, your appeal?  You were not acquitted?

 8     Yes or no?

 9        A.   This is the first time I see this, that the fine was actually

10     confirmed.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             Can this be admitted?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Otherwise, fines are not something

14     that is included in a criminal record.  One does not get a criminal

15     record on the basis of fines that are imposed.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is this a criminal case?

18        A.   Yes.  Now everything that used to be a misdemeanor is part of

19     criminal proceedings, because misdemeanors have been abolished

20     altogether.  So a fine was imposed, as if I had committed a traffic

21     violation.  So, all right, I agree it was a criminal case, but,

22     nevertheless, it was only a fine that was imposed.  Is there anything

23     that is in dispute there?

24        Q.   Nothing, thank you.  And then the company called Meteor, was

25     it -- actually, can this be marked for identification, this

Page 15566

 1     second-instance judgement?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That will be done.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1404, Your Honours.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3641.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Did the company Meteor bring charges against you and your company

 7     that you are also general manager of?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Were you charged with avoiding to pay your debts?

10        A.   I was acquitted on first instance, and you don't have that

11     judgement.  As for the second-instance judgement, when I returned, the

12     second-instance judgement said that I was supposed to pay about 246.000

13     marks to Meteor.  I appealed to the Supreme Court of the BH, or, rather,

14     Republika Srpska, and the Supreme Court of Republika Srpska annulled that

15     decision of the second-instance court.  Again, on a second time, the

16     District Court found in favour of the company called Meteor.  However, as

17     they were resolving the case the second time, the Supreme Court passed

18     the same kind of judgement; namely, the final judgement of the

19     first-instance Court was confirmed, and it states that the District Court

20     judgement was not lawful.

21             I have the rulings of all three Courts, and I can show them to

22     you.

23        Q.   You said after you returned.  Returned from where?

24        A.   The Hague.

25        Q.   This is the 1st of March, 2004, the 1st of March, 2004, and you

Page 15567

 1     were in The Hague in June 2005.

 2        A.   Obviously, you are trying -- well, the proceedings took place

 3     even before they were before the Court.  When I received the

 4     first-instance judgement, there were no difficulties because the Court

 5     found in my favour.  However, the proceedings went on, and the

 6     second-instance Court ruled against me.  The Supreme Court annulled the

 7     decision of the District Court and returned the case to the

 8     District Court.  The District Court confirmed its own second-instance

 9     judgement, the one that you say you have -- actually, the one that is

10     here before us now, and then, yet again, I appealed to the Supreme Court.

11     And you have to wait for two years, and even more.  And then perhaps a

12     year and a half earlier on, the Supreme Court supported the judgement of

13     the Lower Court in Bijeljina.  And I will tell you why the District Court

14     is passing such judgements.

15        Q.   Thank you, but that is not our subject now.  The subject of what

16     I'm saying now is that all of this happened before your testimony here.

17        A.   All of this was happening during the proceedings.

18        Q.   But you testified here in June 2005; is that correct?

19        A.   That's correct, but the proceedings went on until 2009.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   And then I get a final decision acquitting me.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Can this be admitted?

24             JUDGE KWON:  This will be marked for identification as

25     Exhibit D1405.

Page 15568

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2        Q.   Were you also sued by a company called Zitopromet?  Did they sue

 3     the company of which you are the owner and director?

 4        A.   Correct.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D3652.  1D3652.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is this a case where the judge is Halida Buljugic, and the case

 8     is between two companies over a debt of 11.250 convertible marks, and did

 9     the judge decide that you have to pay that debt?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

12             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I do not really see the

13     relevance.

14             This is a businessman who has, of course, in the run of his

15     business, disputes with his customers or his co-operating companies.  I

16     don't really see how this could reflect on the credibility of this

17     witness.  That is usual for everyone who runs a business.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very much so.

19             Mr. Karadzic, do you have an explanation as to the relevance of

20     this document, having heard Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff's statement?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If you wait to see the next

22     document, you will see that there is continuity, a pattern of not paying

23     debts, committing fraud, forcible entry into apartments, abuse of

24     authority and position.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll consider admitting this document later on.

Page 15569

 1             Proceed.

 2             Yes, Mr. Davidovic.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've already said even this

 4     judgement was quashed and I was acquitted by the District Court in

 5     Bijeljina.  I don't know if Mr. Karadzic has that judgement.  If he

 6     doesn't, I do.

 7             And if I may clear one thing up.  It refers to business fraud.

 8             I was a witness there.  I interceded with the director of that

 9     company that flour be issued to a certain man.  It's a company called

10     Meteor.  People issue flour, and they write on the receipt:  "At the

11     intervention of Mico Davidovic."  You can see from those papers that I

12     did not take that flour, my name was not on the dispatch documents.  I

13     was later acquitted, but I was acquitted because I just went there and

14     paid for it.  I met that man, the director, two years later, and he told

15     me, Do you know the man who received the flour never paid for it?  I

16     said, What do you mean?  I'm very embarrassed that I was the one who

17     interceded to get him that flour, so I went to that business and paid the

18     debt, the debt of another person before that company.  And in the

19     meantime, proceedings were already underway against me, but the

20     Appeals Court acquitted me.

21             And the whole thing repeats itself many times; proceedings,

22     acquittal, proceedings, acquittal.  And Mr. Karadzic is trying to

23     consistently portray me as a fraud and a criminal.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Were you sued or charged with fraud other times?

Page 15570

 1        A.   I said I was involved in three cases, and all the three

 2     judgements are acquittals.  And at this moment, there are no proceedings

 3     against me.  All the judgements against me are acquittals, and they are

 4     final judgements, and I can provide them to be included in the evidence

 5     if it is of any interest.

 6        Q.   But each of these cases were before you testified in Krajisnik?

 7        A.   Only started before, but they lasted a long time and went from

 8     lower courts to higher courts to appeal courts, et cetera.  And many

 9     years later, I would always be acquitted.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 1D3642.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Is this a criminal report by Jelenko Knezevic, charges of fraud?

13     He was suing you for defrauding him -- or, rather, defaulting on your

14     obligations under a contract; is it right?

15        A.   Yes, but I was acquitted by both the Appeals Court and the

16     District Court in both proceedings.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I see no value and relevance in this

22     document.  Everybody can make a criminal complaint.  The result of the

23     investigation and the result of the prosecution, if there is one,

24     that's -- that would be relevant, but not someone making a complaint

25     because they have a disagreement on a business contract.

Page 15571

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  If I could just be heard very

 4     briefly.

 5             I think in common-law systems, where we have jury trials, there

 6     are strict rules about admissibility of such things, and it probably

 7     would not be admissible.  But in this Tribunal, where we have

 8     professional Judges and items are weighed, as opposed to excluded,

 9     I think this is a circumstances under which a document like this, which

10     does go to his credibility, given the limitations expressed by

11     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, it still ought to be admitted.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, they're pretty severe limitations, aren't

13     they, Mr. Robinson?  It's an allegation; no more.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, that's correct.  And I think with that

15     weight, it should be admitted, because there's not the danger of your

16     being unable to fairly assess that, whereas in a jury trial, there might

17     be such a danger.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  The only problem is that, as you know,

19     Mr. Robinson, there are a myriad of documents that the Trial Chamber is

20     going to have to look at in due course, and it may be that this falls

21     into the category of a document that the defendant would agree is not, of

22     itself, of any real moment.  But that's just an observation.

23             JUDGE KWON:  The other members of the Chamber agree with

24     Judge Morrison's view.  This will not be admitted.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see one more document

Page 15572

 1     before we finish, 3640.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Mr. Davidovic, did you run into trouble with the law even when

 4     you were young?

 5        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you're asking me the same things Mr. Krajisnik

 6     asked me.  As a minor, when I was 15 years old, with boys of the same

 7     age, I was involved in a fight, and I was treated by the law as a minor.

 8     Does it please you that I have a juvenile criminal record as a minor?

 9     But that didn't stop me from finishing university, getting employed with

10     the police and working.  You are now bringing it up, just like

11     Mr. Krajisnik did.

12        Q.   You were 16 or 17?

13        A.   Maybe 16 or 17.  I was a minor, in any case.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, in the previous case,

17     Mr. Krajisnik, indeed, wanted to have this document be admitted.  It

18     wasn't admitted.  But --

19             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think that's --

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The fact that I did not object using this is

21     actually the witness, himself, said that he would like to be able to

22     answer those kind of things.  Therefore, under this limited -- under this

23     point, I have no objection, but want to make, again, clear that there is

24     no real value in this.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond?  It would be a brief

Page 15573

 1     response.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  This is a criminal record that is related to an

 4     event when he was 16 years old.  And given that he admitted what is

 5     contained in this document, the Chamber does not see any need to admit

 6     this.  So we'll not admit this.

 7             Given the time, we'll adjourn for to-day and resume at 9.00

 8     tomorrow morning.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Although the ruling has been made,

10     I just want to say why I offered this.

11             This would shed light on the conduct of this witness in his later

12     years as the basis of a pattern of aggressive behaviour.  That was the

13     reason.

14             JUDGE KWON:  That's an unnecessary comment on your part,

15     Mr. Karadzic.

16             Tomorrow morning at 9.00.

17                           [The witness stands down]

18                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.03 p.m.,

19                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 29th day of

20                           June, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.