1 Friday, 1 July 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
9 WITNESS: MILORAD DAVIDOVIC [Resumed]
10 [Witness answered through interpreter]
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, 15 minutes for you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.
13 Good morning. Good morning to everyone.
14 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, may I tender 3793?
19 I believe it will be of assistance to the Chamber. That's the transcript
20 of Mr. Davidovic's testimony in Belgrade.
21 JUDGE KWON: In its entirety?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: No objection, Your Honour.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
1 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1450, Your Honours.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. We have these 15 minutes, Mr. Davidovic, so I'll try to shed
5 light on some things that remained unclear.
6 You mentioned some man called Pejo as one of the Arkan's men. Is
7 he one of the locals in Bosnia and Herzegovina or he came from outside,
8 from Serbia?
9 A. Even before he came to Bijeljina, he was a well-known criminal.
10 He was investigated by our operative staff. He used to live in Belgrade.
11 He was a member of Arkan's clan.
12 When the war began -- or, rather, during the preparations in
13 Erdut and on the Drina River, he was with Arkan all the time and later
14 became his deputy. He was later given the rank of colonel in the army,
15 led by Arkan, and later he was even given the rank of general.
16 Q. Was there a problem among the local population? Were there
17 people who were associated with Arkan?
18 A. Yes, there were, in Bijeljina, people who were associated with
19 Arkan. They even got killed, fighting with him. They had undergone
20 training and later became members of the Arkan's Guard, paramilitaries.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I now call up 65 ter 13403.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. May I ask you - and there is also a translation - do you agree
24 that pursuant to some sort of report, a man responsible for embezzlement
25 is trying to leave and I'm intervening with General Tolimir to have him
1 arrested so that he couldn't leave?
2 A. I agree.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is 15 March 1995.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. That's when he tried to
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this will be admitted.
8 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1451, Your Honours.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 May I now have 1D3781.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. May I ask you to look at this. Is it the case that on
13 23rd September 1992 the ministry informs the prime minister and members
14 of the Presidency that the smuggling of weapons in SAO Herzegovina has
15 been stopped; these weapons were smuggled by Serbs, but our police
16 stopped them and arrested them? It's the police who wrote this, and the
17 names are Serb names?
18 A. Yes, 23rd September 1992.
19 Q. And the smugglers are Serbs, judging by the names?
20 A. Yes. They tried to sell those weapons, the weapons they had been
21 issued with in Republika Srpska. They transferred them across the Drina.
22 And there was even a trial of some people from Ugljevik in Serbia because
23 they tried to sell those weapons or re-sell those weapons in Kosovo.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1452, Your Honours.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3780, please.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Do you agree that in this paper I inform the Main Staff on
6 27 January 1994 that representatives of the Republic of Herceg-Bosna will
7 hand over, at some check-point probably, these persons: Svetomir,
8 Sacira, Alen, Denis, all of them last name Brankovic? Is this a Muslim
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. It says:
12 "On the same occasion, the sister and the brother-in-law of
13 Osman Karabegovic, Berka and Muharem Osmic from Mostar, will also be
14 handed over. Please give safe passage and complete security to these
15 persons on their way to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. Pay special
16 attention to the Osmic married couple."
17 Who was Osman Karabegovic?
18 A. He fought in the war. I think he was even a war veteran from
19 World War II. He had been decorated. And I believe he was also the
20 president of the War Veterans Association.
21 Q. Just clarify for the interpreters.
22 A. It's a war veterans association from the Second World War.
23 Q. Although we had changed the system, we were a
24 non-Communist Party, we were not anti-Communist. I left the names of
25 some streets named after national heroes from World War II?
1 A. [No interpretation]
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the witness's
4 JUDGE KWON: We didn't hear your answer, Mr. Davidovic. Could
5 you repeat it.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This paper is something I support
7 with all my heart. It is an attempt, an effort, to protect the family of
8 Osman Karabegovic.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll mark this for identification.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1453, Your Honours.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 Can we look at 1D3784.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Do you agree that my adviser is addressing the Main Staff, on my
15 authority? He's, in fact, writing to the municipalities of Vogosca and
16 Ilijas that the Main Staff had informed me that without the consent of
17 the army, volunteers are being engaged, contrary to the Law on the Army,
18 and that I am asking to be urgently briefed?
19 A. Yes. Those are members of some political party that the local
20 authorities are trying to engage as volunteers, and you're trying to stop
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1454, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Can we see 1D3787.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. This is a bulletin of daily incidents of the
4 Police Security Station in Bijeljina, dated 23rd October 1992.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 2 and the page
6 after so Mr. Davidovic can see to whom this was sent.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Members of the Government of Republika Srpska, Jovo Miskin, the
9 same Jovo Miskin who supported you on behalf of the government in your
11 A. I introduced this bulletin when I came, and there was a person in
12 charge of publishing it. And I wanted the local authorities informed on
13 a daily basis at first, and later also the government in Pale. This
14 bulletin covered all the incidents that happened in one day in Bijeljina.
15 Q. You see number 2. Two strangers came into the yard of some
16 Masic, Nurija, and drove away his tractor; investigation is underway.
17 A. That's correct. That was just reported.
18 Q. Next page.
19 But you accept it. You know what it is. It's all recorded. It
20 cannot be covered up because it's documented?
21 A. Yes. Wherever we have the full names, we record them, and the
22 Internal Affairs organs then took action. But we were not responsible
23 for monitoring what happened later.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
25 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
1 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D1455, Your Honours.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3788, please.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. 26 December 1992, just for you to see that the bulletin you
5 introduced continued. 26 December, page 2, to see who received this?
6 The corps command, garrison command, chief of the CSB, head of
7 the Public Security Station, chief of the National Security, and chief of
8 Crime Investigation.
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Next page.
11 These are the topics you introduced: Crime, public order, and
12 peace. Some people had their documents checked. Some were brought into
14 Next page.
15 Traffic accidents, reprimands issued. There were no foreigners.
16 Next page.
17 What you introduced, in other words, continued?
18 A. Yes.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
20 JUDGE KWON: This will be marked for identification.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1456, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: You should come to your last question, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have two more questions -- or,
24 rather, two more documents. Could I please have that extra time because
25 we actually did not start exactly at 9.00? It would be useful because it
1 really has to do with what the witness knows just before he came.
2 65 ter 583.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Do you agree that this is the 6th of June, 1992, it's the Command
5 of the East Bosnia Corps, and they're issuing an order to rename
6 territorial defence staffs and TO units, thus part of a single
7 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
11 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit D1457.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 7402, another one. 7402.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is this the 3rd of June, also transformation of the guard into
15 units of the Eastern Bosnian Corps? And the order is issued to transform
16 the guard of Semberija-Majevica, and then, further on, one company to the
17 Bircanska Brigade, another one to the Bijeljina MAP? Is that the
18 Volunteer Guard of SAO Semberija that, on the basis of the
19 Territorial Defence --
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can we have the next
21 page, the last one.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mauzer, yes. The Eastern Bosnia Corps is asking for it to be
24 transformed and to become part of a single army; right?
25 A. Yes, that's right. This order did exist, but this order was
1 never carried out. Up until the end of the war, the guard did function.
2 It was totally autonomous, independent, and it never wanted to be under
3 the command of the Army of Republika Srpska. There were a great many
4 difficulties involved, and you know that General Mladic warned about that
6 It is true that sometime in 1992, in the beginning of July, an
7 active-duty military person, a major by rank, was assigned to that unit
8 after all. Now, was Panta his name or nickname? I don't know.
9 Q. Pantelic?
10 A. Possibly. I don't know. I know that when he came there, he had
11 a talk at the corps command, and I happened to be there, when it was
12 indicated to him how this separation from the command and the Main Staff
13 would affect everything. This major actually got killed afterwards, and
14 the guard was never transformed into three, the Bircanska and the rest.
15 The guard functioned until the very end.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that Mladic and I came, after some
17 crises had emerged, and I exerted pressure on the president of the
18 municipality, who was a good man except for his inclination towards these
19 territorial units, but Mauzer took his rank and returned him to the rank
20 of private? Have you heard of that?
21 A. I heard of it. I heard that he was degraded -- rather, that his
22 rank was taken away from him. But he didn't have a rank in the first
23 place. I know that these were problems. I know that there was a lot of
24 brazen behaviour there. At one point in time, there was a lack of
25 respect for your order to have him re-subordinated to the Army of
1 Republika Srpska.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1458, Your Honours.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Last question, Mr. Davidovic.
8 It was only yesterday that I heard from you that these 15 young
9 men who you had brought were that well trained. At the time, did we have
10 a leader, like yourself, and well-trained young men like them?
11 A. No. The unit that used to be the Special Unit within BH, I mean
12 the Republican MUP, before the war, it fell apart along ethnic lines, and
13 I think that about 10 persons who were ethnic Serbs separated from the
14 unit and moved to the school at Vraca. If you remember, when I first
15 came to Sarajevo, it had to do with an attempt to get that Special Unit
16 that was later led by Karisnik [as interpreted] or, further on, his
17 deputy, Repija. That is why I said at the very beginning why I didn't
18 want to take that unit in.
19 Actually, when this unit was established, these 10 young men were
20 supposed to be trained individually, with our assistance. Actually, each
21 one of them was supposed to train other people. So then, ultimately, a
22 unit was formed that existed of over 100 persons, on the basis of this
23 attitude we had taken. We wished to turn this unit into a
24 special-purposes unit. While I was in Sarajevo during that one month, we
25 did not manage to do that.
1 You had words of praise for the commanders, but my view is
2 something different. I think that we stopped only halfway. This unit
3 separated itself from the rest. They thought that they were well trained
4 and that they had nothing else to learn. I think that they were not
5 trained enough.
6 The ten persons that the special unit at Krtelj had, and so many
7 other good young men in different SUPs, those who knew how to shoot well,
8 those who were well versed in the martial arts, out of all of these men a
9 good special unit could have been formed that would have been the
10 counterpart of the unit we had in Belgrade at the SUP, and, actually, all
11 the special units in different units -- in different republics were based
12 on that original unit from the Federal SUP.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. It is of utmost
14 interest to me to have these proceedings take place in public. I respect
15 witnesses, and all of those who respect me respect the witnesses, and I
16 am proud of my friends and supporters, and I have to say that no
17 witnesses so far have had any problems, and I believe that you will not
18 have any problems either, although our views may differ. In a way, these
19 are words of praise for my friends. It is only an enemy of mine that
20 could cause any unpleasantness to any witness.
21 Thank you, and I apologise for having squabbled with you over
22 certain things. Perhaps it was a lack of precision and then I wanted
23 things to be spelled out as clearly as possible.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, as well.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Good morning, Your Honours, and thank you.
2 Re-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Davidovic.
4 Mr. Davidovic, during --
5 A. Good morning.
6 Q. Mr. Davidovic, during cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic put to you
7 a number of documents, mostly from 1994, related to the judiciary and the
8 prosecution of perpetrators. Do you recall that?
9 A. Yes. For the most part, it was 1994 and 1995.
10 Q. During the first day of cross-examination, at
11 transcript page 15678, Mr. Karadzic put to you a letter sent by the
12 President's Office on 7th August 1994 to the VRS Main Staff
13 Intelligence Department, asking them which steps had been taken in
14 relation to the case of Nenad Milicic, commander of the VRS Brod
15 Battalion. And Mr. Karadzic suggested to you that he had urged the
16 judicial organs to speed up the procedure, and you agreed that the
17 document showed an effort to establish legality.
18 Could we now have 65 ter 22020 brought up on the screen.
19 And as it is coming up: It is a document sent by the
20 VRS Main Staff Intelligence Department to the President's Office on
21 5th June 1994 informing them of tasks in co-operation with the RS MUP
22 State Security and Public Security departments in two specific cases.
23 Mr. Davidovic, the first case listed under number 1 in this
24 letter is a case of booby-trapping the car of Borivoje Djuric, president
25 of the Deputies' Club of the SDS in Brod, and that the RDB organs learned
1 about the involvement of the commander of the Brod Battalion of the
2 Army of the Republika Srpska, Nenad Milicic, aka Neso, his assistant, and
3 some other members in this sabotage act.
4 Do you see this, Mr. Davidovic?
5 A. Yes, I see it.
6 Q. Mr. Davidovic, given the name and the position of that crime,
7 would you be able to say whether this person was a Serb or a non-Serb?
8 A. I think it's a Serb.
9 Q. And if you now look at the second case mentioned in this
10 document - it's under number 2 - it relates to a crime committed in
11 Janja, and the victim is Reserve Police Officer Mirko Tomic, the owner of
12 a catering business. Do you know Mr. Tomic?
13 A. I cannot remember who that is. It does ring a bell, the name,
14 but at this moment I cannot remember.
15 Q. What would be his ethnic origin, if you can tell by looking at
16 his name?
17 A. I can conclude that it is Mirko Tomic, an ethnic Serb. You can
18 see that by his name. However, Mirko Tomic, before the war, did not have
19 any kind of restaurant. I can claim with certainty that he either got
20 it, or someone handed it over to him, or he usurped it. I cannot say.
21 He became the owner of that restaurant, and that is not right. There
22 were no Serb restaurants in Janja, and this is that period --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand the rest of
24 the sentence.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
1 Q. Can you -- the interpreters missed -- couldn't get all your
2 answer. You said.
3 "... this is that period --"
4 And then they lost you. Could you complete that sentence,
6 A. Yes. That is the period when that kind of thing could not happen
7 in Janja. There was not a single catering establishment in Janja that
8 was owned by the Serbs. This facility that is referred to as
9 Marko Tomic's must have been received or usurped from a Muslim, and now
10 this Mirko Tomic was running it. So it's quite clear.
11 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.
12 Your Honour, I would like to tender this exhibit.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2924, Your Honours.
15 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
16 Q. Mr. Davidovic, Mr. Karadzic also put to you, and here it's
17 transcript page 15681, a letter sent by him to the Supreme Military Court
18 and the supreme military prosecutor of the RS on the
19 6th of September, 1994 - and that's Exhibit D01422 - asking them to
20 explain why a trial involving 10 perpetrators, scheduled for the
21 26th of September, 1994, while the accused are free because the military
22 prosecutor failed to file a motion for detention measures, and it also
23 referred to the fact that seven of the perpetrators were kept in
24 detention only briefly and three of them only for 30 days.
25 Do you remember that you discussed this with Mr. Karadzic?
1 A. I cannot remember. This is a document that confirms that he did
2 this to see what the reasons are why some people are free and others are
3 not, why they were released before the investigation was completed. And
4 I think that that could be an answer.
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Can we please have 65 ter 23174 be
6 brought up on the screen.
7 Q. And as it is coming up: It is another letter signed by
8 Mr. Karadzic to the Supreme Military Court and the supreme military
9 prosecutor of the RS, of the 31st of August, 1994, in which Mr. Karadzic
10 stated that Radenko Renic had sent a letter to the President's office
11 concerning the murder of his son Vojin Nenic [sic], whose killers were
12 set free, still free, and were sending new threats to the family of the
13 killed person.
14 And if you look a little bit further down in the main paragraph
15 in this letter, Mr. Karadzic states further that the VRS Main Staff
16 Intelligence Sector had informed them that the murder had taken place on
17 5th July 1993 in the building of the Command of the 5th Battalion of the
18 2nd Brigade in Rijecani. And he refers also to the seven perpetrators
19 were released the same day and three of them held 30 days.
20 Mr. Davidovic, looking at the names of the victim and the father,
21 what would be the ethnicity of Ranko Nenic [sic] and his son
22 Vojin Nenic [sic]?
23 THE COURT REPORTER: Renic or Nenic?
24 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Nenic. Oh, sorry, Renic. I misspoke.
25 Renic. It says here Radenko Renic, at least in the version that I can
1 read. The original I cannot read whether it says "Renic" or ... it says
2 Renic. Renic, yes. Sorry. Renic.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say for sure whether it's
4 a Serb or a Croat. There are names that appear among both ethnic groups,
5 so you cannot say for sure whether it's a Serb or a Croat name.
6 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you.
7 Your Honour, I would like to tender this document.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Davidovic, you told us that you do not
9 understand English. Is that correct?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No -- yes, that is correct.
11 JUDGE KWON: Would you kindly take off your headphones for a
13 Yes. Madam Uertz-Retzlaff, if you could tell us, in a brief
14 manner, how this document and the previous document are relevant to your
16 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: The Prosecution's position is that the
17 accused was able to influence and to direct authorities to investigate or
18 prosecute. However, he chose to do that on a selective basis. And these
19 documents are supposed to show that this was, in fact, the case; that
20 when, here, for instance, the Serb is the victim, then there is
21 intervention. And when it is not, then it's different. That is just two
22 examples. As this is here a murder taking place in the Command of the
23 5th Battalion of the 2nd Brigade in Rijecani, there seems to be also the
24 indication that this is, again, a Serb victim. The selective actions
25 that he takes.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can there be an answer?
3 JUDGE KWON: No. This is not a time for debate. We just wanted
4 to know where she was going. You'll have another time to respond to the
6 Yes, please go ahead.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: These are only two -- the two examples that
8 I want to put in relation to this particular issue. And, Your Honour,
9 I --
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 This will be admitted.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2925, Your Honours.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
14 Q. The other topic that I would like to ask you about is the fact
15 that -- who the person Vojkan Djurkovic was and whether he was promoted.
16 At transcript pages 15712 to 15715, you discuss the promotion of
17 Vojkan Djurkovic, and you made a reference to the video-clip depicting an
18 award parade of Arkan's troop in Bijeljina, and you -- at page 15714, you
19 said that he was standing there at the head. And also during the
20 examination-in-chief, when we had a video, you mentioned his name.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have Exhibit P02858 be played,
22 and only the first eight seconds.
23 Q. And, Mr. Davidovic, please say "stop" when you see the person by
24 the name of Vojkan Djurkovic.
25 JUDGE KWON: We need to switch to Sanction first and start again.
1 [Video-clip played]
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He's the first one here, the first
3 one on our right-hand side. As he is walking, he's the first one on the
5 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
6 Q. And this -- what is the uniform and the flag that he is basically
7 next to?
8 A. This is the flag of Arkan's unit, the Panthers, and he is wearing
9 a camouflage uniform with a beret. Officers wear red berets. Actually,
10 they're a dark-cherry colour. And soldiers wear olive-grey berets.
11 Actually, it can be seen even better in another situation, when they're
12 coming from the mosque. That's where you can see Vojkan as well.
13 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we move on and let it play a little bit
15 And, please, again -- Your Honour, just for the record, so that
16 you can identify this particular still, it is at 00:00:06.5.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we just --
19 [Video-clip played]
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can clearly see
22 Vojkan Djurkovic, very clearly.
23 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you.
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
25 Yes. What was it, Mr. Karadzic?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us avail ourselves of this
2 opportunity. May we ask Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff to identify the date, the
3 date when this happened, when this review took place, when this
4 video-clip was taken?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot say. I cannot say the
6 exact date. No chance of that. I can just confirm as I said earlier on,
7 when I watched this video, you can see the monument in front of the
8 municipality. That was placed there in 1993. When the unit is on the
9 other side, when it's moving from the courthouse to the municipality
10 building, then you can see the area where the mosque used to be, the one
11 that was destroyed in 1993. And I see that the grass is green, so this
12 review could be in 1994, but when exactly, I cannot say. You can see
13 that it's green, it's not winter-time, so it's summer-time, spring,
14 perhaps even autumn, because in the area where the mosque used to be,
15 where everything was destroyed, grass was planted, and the grass grew
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecution can say - thank
18 you - it is their exhibit and they should have that information.
19 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes. Indeed, we do have this information,
20 but I purposely didn't mention it because the witness didn't know that.
21 JUDGE KWON: The title says it was the 23rd of October, 1995.
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: It's actually the 26th, so -- I can't see it
23 now, but it should be the 26th of October, 1995, so a year later than the
24 witness thought.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Let us proceed.
1 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
2 Q. At transcript page 15730, Mr. Karadzic told you that his office
3 recorded every visit and every telephone call to him and that there was
4 no trace of any contact between Vojkan Djurkovic and Mr. Karadzic. Do
5 you remember this?
6 A. Yes, I remember him saying it.
7 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have 65 ter 23081 be brought
8 up in e-court. And, Your Honour, it is a document provided by Serbia on
9 the 14th of March, 2007, and there are no protective measures related to
10 this document.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:
13 Q. And as it is coming up, looking at the first page: It is a
14 document dated 9 April 1994, forwarded to Frenki, as it says on top left.
15 This information mostly related to Western Slavonia.
16 Mr. Davidovic, who -- do you know who is Frenki, where this
17 document is forwarded to?
18 A. Well, Frenki Simatovic, assistant to Jovica Stanisic, an
19 individual who was charged directly with planning, directing of all
20 important matters, including logistics, for the Red Berets of the
21 Security Service in the Republic of Serbia. So Frenki was the one who
22 took care of everything, issued others, tours the area, and took care of
23 everything that was of relevance to the unit.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Can we please have the last page in the
1 B/C/S and page 5 in the English.
2 Q. Mr. Davidovic, the last paragraph in the document reads, and I
3 quote here:
4 "In Bijeljina, moving out of the Muslim families by the
5 Exchange State Commission, led by Vojislav Djurkovic, aka Puskar or
6 Vojka, still continues. However, the problem is that the said person
7 takes 300 to 500 German marks per head for departure."
8 And a line later there is a reference to the fact that he also
9 takes money from Serbs moving into Muslim houses.
10 Is this consistent with your own information?
11 A. Yes. I spoke about it. When Vojkan would pick up Muslims and
12 take them from their houses --
13 Q. Mr. Davidovic, we don't need to repeat this because you have
14 already told these details.
15 Just a bit further down, it says:
16 "However, the entire time there is information that Puskar is
17 acting under President Karadzic's orders and has to give him part of the
18 money. Also, allegedly, he gives part of the money to Arkan, as he uses
19 his people for the removes. That information wouldn't be significant if
20 it was not for such a long time in Bijeljina and Janja, and for sure it
21 was given also to the International Red Cross, as well as to the Muslims
22 in Tuzla and Sarajevo and thus in Geneva. One delegate in the Assembly
23 of the Republic of Serbia inquired about Puskar, his moving out of
24 Muslims, and asked whose man he was, Milosevic's or Karadzic's."
25 And the report is signed with the Greek letter sigma.
1 Mr. Davidovic, do you know what the sigma sign at the end of the
2 document stands for?
3 A. This is a code-sign that they used. Whenever you wrote "Sigma,"
4 it meant that the letter came from Frenki Simatovic and that he was the
5 one signing it. So this code-name was assigned to an individual so you
6 would know who would -- who signed it. I knew that it was
7 Frenki Simatovic who was behind the sigma sign. Why they used it, I
8 don't know.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, can this be admitted?
10 JUDGE KWON: But this information was supposed to be forwarded to
11 Frenki. So, according to your explanation, something signed by himself
12 is to be forwarded to Frenki. Could you expand on that, Mr. Davidovic?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When a letter is sent from Frenki,
14 there is always the sign there. Why, I don't know. I don't know who
15 assigned the code to him, but I always was aware of the fact that the
16 letter originated from him whenever "Sigma" was written on it. There was
17 one of his men - I think his name was Carli - down in Sarajevo, and I
18 asked him once because I saw a paper with the sign, and he said, It's
19 from the commander. Why this letter has his name at the top, I don't
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the Defence give their response
22 to the request for admission of the document?
23 JUDGE KWON: Have you asked admission of this document,
24 Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, I did ask the admission of the
1 document. And as I said before, it's a document provided by the
2 Republic of Serbia according to an RFI of the Prosecutor's Office, and it
3 was provided to us on the 14th of March, 2007.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic. You're going to deal with --
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I oppose the admission of the
6 document. I can only anticipate that this is a group that we managed to
7 destroy. I think Mr. Davidovic would know about this group. This
8 document is not a credible one. From what I know, the group was, in
9 fact, disbanded, dispersed, but we arrested the members of the group, and
10 I believe that they continued feigning [as interpreted] to exist. I'm
11 sure the gentleman here will know what I'm talking about.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
13 If I could also add: I think this is a situation where a
14 document would have so little weight that you should not admit it, as
15 opposed to admitting it and then taking some of these issues under
16 consideration as to weight, because, first of all, as you've already
17 pointed out, its question as to the authorship, basically unknown. It's
18 unlikely that Frenki would be writing to himself.
19 Secondly, the information that the Prosecution wants to elicit
20 from this document is also attributed to unknown individuals. It's
21 basically gossip. So the probative value of this information is very,
22 very low, and we ought to have the right to confront someone who actually
23 has knowledge of this.
24 There's no expectation that Mr. Davidovic would have ever seen
25 this document or had anything to do with it. It's just simply he's being
1 used as a convenient vehicle to refute something that was suggested to
2 him through a document that there's no expectation that he has any
3 knowledge of, and it denies us our right to confront the person with that
4 kind of information.
5 So when you add all those factors together, I think that the
6 probative value of this document is out-weighed by its prejudicial effect
7 and that it ought not to be admitted.
8 Thank you.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, can I also answer this.
10 And I would suggest that you, perhaps, not make, right now, a
11 decision, but, rather, wait until I show the next document to the
12 witness, because it is related and clarifies the group Sigma and who the
13 group Sigma is.
14 And I also want to mention that the witness has basically said
15 what is written here is exactly what he also says and noticed. I think
16 that's how it relates to the witness, as such.
17 But in as to the value of this document, I would suggest that you
18 perhaps let me show the next document and then you make your decision.
19 JUDGE KWON: Well, let's proceed, then, with the next one, the
20 next document.
21 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes, thank you.
22 Can we please have 65 ter 2315 -- 23015 on the screen. And it is
23 again from the Republic of Serbia, and it has a few redactions in there;
24 basically, the people signing it and the -- yeah, that's on the last
25 page, a few redactions.
1 And as it is coming up: It is a document from the
2 State Security Department -- from the State Security Department of the
3 Republic of Serbia, dated the 27th June, 1994. It discusses the problems
4 of the intelligence group with the pseudonym "Typhoon," and it says that
5 they had approached the 2nd Administration of the RDB of the
6 Republic of Serbia MUP for co-operation.
7 Can we have the three last paragraphs focused on. And in the
8 B/C/S it's actually spreading into the next page.
9 Q. It says here that:
10 "We let the members of the group known that we will accept the
11 group's initiative only under the conditions that they get approval from
12 the president of the Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic, and the minister
13 of interior, Mr. Stanisic."
14 And then it states further that this group has Karadzic and
15 Stanisic's approval that they will be incorporated into the system under
16 Franko Simatovic. They will have the pseudonym "Sigma."
17 Mr. Davidovic --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask that the dates of these
19 documents be indicated? If Madam Uertz-Retzlaff thinks that one document
20 arises from the other, can we have the dates for both of the documents
21 and so we can see for ourselves?
22 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: I've actually mentioned the date. Here,
23 it's the 27th June 1994, and the previous one was --
24 JUDGE KWON: -- the 9th of April, 1994.
25 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Yes.
1 Q. And, Mr. Davidovic, do you know about a group, Typhoon, and, as
2 it says here, renamed then to "Sigma"? Do you know anything about such
3 intelligence groups providing information to Mr. Simatovic?
4 A. As far as I know, and I can't claim this with any certainty, the
5 Typhoon group was a group of individuals who were unhappy with certain
6 developments in Banja Luka, both in the military and civilian
7 authorities, and as a result they launched a revolt initiative asking for
8 the president of the municipality and some other individuals to step
9 down. They called themselves the Typhoon Group. Apparently, they wanted
10 some wrongs to be righted, and they pointed their fingers at individuals
11 in the army and civilian authorities for fraud and unlawful activities.
12 After a while, a compromise was reached. Was somebody arrested, was
13 somebody brought in? At any rate, things settled down.
14 I know that the group was active in Banja Luka and operated for a
15 while and suited up with the Army of Republika Srpska as well as
16 Mr. Karadzic and his followers from the government.
17 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, I would like to have this
18 document as well admitted, and I think it has now shed more clarity on
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.
22 This document, we don't have any objection to this being
23 admitted, but I think that it shows that the other document is even more
24 unreliable than we thought, because now it's being authored by some group
25 that's in opposition -- in political opposition to President Karadzic.
1 And I think it's a serious allegation that's contained in the other
2 document, that President Karadzic somehow was complicit in the extorting
3 of money from Muslims, and in order for anything like that to even be
4 remotely considered by this Trial Chamber, we ought to have the chance to
5 confront it. And this witness knows nothing about the source of that
6 information, and the document itself is extremely -- has such low weight
7 that it ought not to be admitted in this trial without someone here that
8 we can confront so that you could have some analysis of what weight to
9 give to that information.
10 Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Just can I ask one question to Mr. Davidovic.
12 Pursuant to this document we are seeing now, the penultimate
13 sentence in English:
14 "The technical aspects of two-way communication were accordingly
15 studied, and the group will from now on contact us under the pseudonym
17 So "Sigma" was allegedly introduced/established in sometime June,
18 but do you know that "Sigma" was used before this time-period?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know. I remember seeing
20 documents with that code, and I didn't know what it stood for. I was
21 told that this had to do with documents that were related to the
22 commander, Simatovic. I don't know the details of it. But I did have
23 occasion to see a document - I held it in my hands - belonging to a
24 member of the Red Berets which had this sign on it, and I didn't know
25 what it stood for.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: As to the first document, the Chamber hasn't reached
4 a consensus. We'll mark it for identification.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI P2927, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KWON: And the second document will be admitted.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P2926.
8 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. This concludes my
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I then have a couple of minutes
11 for a re-cross only on this particular issue?
12 JUDGE KWON: On the issue of this alleged Sigma? I will consult
13 my colleagues.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 Further cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Davidovic, do you know that I ordered for the Typhoon group
20 to be re-subordinated to the Ministry of the Interior and the
21 State Security Service and, when this was not done, ordered that they be
22 disbanded, and when this wasn't done either, Deputy Minister Kovac
23 reported to me that they continued operating and I asked and ordered that
24 they be arrested, which ultimately they were? Did you have this
1 A. Well, I must admit that I know the matter only superficially. I
2 know that there were problems. I know that measures were taken to stop
3 them, to restrain them. Was an order issued for them to be disbanded? I
4 don't know. I don't know about the arrests. I know that problems arose,
5 but I wasn't able to follow the specific issue. I wasn't there. I only
6 know what I was able to tell you now, in general terms.
7 I was aware of the problems, though. I even said, in respect of
8 one of your earlier documents, that there was this revolt on the part of
9 some individuals who asked for people who were involved in crime to be
10 removed. Subsequent problems emerged, barricades, et cetera.
11 I am not aware of these steps that were taken. It is possible
12 that they were arrested.
13 Q. Another question. Had you received this letter, would you have
14 believed them on what they said, that I allowed them to be integrated
15 into the system?
16 A. Well, I know that the consent has to be received from you or the
18 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't catch whether the
19 witness said he would have believed them or not.
20 JUDGE KWON: Did you say, Thank you?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I said, Thank you, I have no
22 further questions.
23 JUDGE KWON: Well, that concludes your evidence --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One moment, please.
25 The interpreter didn't hear what the witness said as to whether
1 you would have believed them or not. And if I recall what the witness
2 said, well, the matter has to be checked. And had the witness --
3 JUDGE KWON: I will deal with it.
4 Questioned by the Court:
5 JUDGE KWON: Your answer to the last question is noted as
7 "Well, I know that the consent has to be received from you or the
9 Did you say anything in addition to that, Mr. Davidovic?
10 A. Yes. I said that in principle, it has to be checked. It's not
11 enough for someone to say that they've received consent from someone.
12 You have to check it, you have to double-check it, in order to know
13 whether a letter of this sort by a group is credible or not. I don't
14 know if the other side believed them or not. I can only see what this
15 one side said; that they had received consent. So what should have been
16 done, as a rule, was to send a letter to the authority who apparently
17 issued the consent. So you have to have a confirmation. You can't just
18 trust a letter coming from Pero Peric unless you actually double-check
19 whether it is credible or not.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 That really concludes your evidence, Mr. Davidovic. On behalf of
22 this Bench and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for your coming
23 all the way to The Hague to give it, and now you are free to go. Please
24 have a safe journey back home.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 [The witness withdrew]
2 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Your Honour, now Mr. Gaynor and I have to
3 switch the positions, and also the next witness has protective measures.
4 So some things have to be done; right?
5 JUDGE KWON: Probably -- I'm minded to give a ruling in relation
6 to the next witness. And then before we bring him in, I think we'll have
7 a break so that everything can be adjusted. I'm wondering whether this
8 should be in private session or not.
9 But there's another matter we need to deal with in private
10 session, so let's go into private session first.
11 [Private session]
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we are now in open session.
18 On 30th June 2011, the accused filed a motion for reconsideration
19 of protective measures for Witness KDZ531, contesting the fact that the
20 Chamber had granted Witness KDZ531 the protective measures of delayed
21 disclosure of identity until 30 days before testimony and requesting that
22 the Chamber hold a hearing in the presence of the witness to determine
23 whether he can testify with less stringent protective measures.
24 The accused submits that the Chamber should examine this motion
25 de novo, and not under the "reconsideration" test, as the basis on which
1 the contested decision was made was ex parte the accused.
2 Also, on 30th of June, the Prosecution filed its response,
3 arguing that the motion should be denied, as the accused has failed to
4 meet the test for reconsideration, in that the Pre-Trial Chamber properly
5 considered the information in relation to KDZ531's request for protective
6 measures and correctly applied the relevant protective measure rules.
7 First, the Chamber considers that the accused's motion is,
8 indeed, a motion for reconsideration of its decision of
9 5th of June, 2009, regardless of the fact that the Prosecution's filing
10 upon which the Chamber decision was made was kept ex parte.
11 The Chamber notes that in its response for protective measures
12 for Witness KDZ531, the accused did not provide his position on the
13 trial-related protective measures, but only opposed the delayed
14 disclosure request.
15 The Chamber recalls that in its decision of 5th of June, 2009, it
16 found that the pseudonym and closed session were appropriate measures and
17 were necessary to safe-guard the privacy and protection of KDZ531 and his
18 family. It also found that such measures were consistent with the rights
19 of the accused in the present case. In coming to this conclusion, the
20 Chamber carefully examined all the information presented to it and
21 weighed against the rights of the accused.
22 The Chamber, therefore, denies the accused's motion to reconsider
23 the protective measures for KDZ531, on the grounds that the accused has
24 not demonstrated that there was a clear error of reasoning in the
25 Chamber's decision of 5th of June, 2009, and that given the current
1 concerns expressed by the witness, the Chamber is not satisfied that it
2 is necessary to reconsider its decision, to prevent injustice.
3 That's the ruling.
4 We'll have a break for --
5 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
7 MR. ROBINSON: May I just ask that the portion of today's
8 proceedings that we just went into private session be provided to
9 Professor Seselj. I think that since we discussed his case, and I think
10 that also he'd be interested to know that what had occurred in connection
11 with the Prosecution's dealing with the protected witness in his case,
12 given the contempt proceedings against him, so I think it's only fair
13 that the private session that we just had be made available to
14 Professor Seselj so that he could have that information.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
16 MR. GAYNOR: I was simply going to say that until the protective
17 measures have been rescinded, I believe that the transcript should remain
18 confidential, just should the Trial Chamber in the Seselj case decide not
19 to rescind the protective measures. Now, after the protective measures
20 are rescinded, if that's what the Seselj Trial Chamber decides to do, we
21 have no objection to the portion being made public.
22 MR. ROBINSON: I'm not asking it to be made public,
23 Mr. President. I'm asking it to be disclosed at this stage to
24 Professor Seselj so that he can have knowledge of that for whatever steps
25 he may wish to take in connection with his own cases.
1 MR. GAYNOR: Well, if I may respond to that.
2 That would still be a violation of the protective measures in
3 place in the Seselj case. The Seselj Trial Chamber would probably object
4 to that move, in my submission.
5 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will consider the matter.
6 Yes, we'll have a break. Shall we break until 11.00? Yes, a bit
7 more than half an hour.
8 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
9 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
10 [Closed session]
11 Pages 15840-15939 redacted. Closed session.
4 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.05 p.m.,
5 to be reconvened on Monday, the 4th day of
6 July, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.