Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 17199

 1                           Tuesday, 16 August 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  We're back to work, back to

 6     normal.

 7             Before we -- I deal with the matter I prepared, I wonder whether

 8     there's anything to be raised by the parties.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Good morning.  First of all,

10     I would like to introduce Vincent Le Junter, who is a legal intern

11     working on our team who will be present during the first session this

12     morning.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Robinson.  Welcome.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Secondly, Mr. President, we have filed this

15     morning a motion for modification of protective measures for the next

16     witness, KDZ-555, and we have done that in another case.  It's a

17     confidential filing because we were advised yesterday by the

18     Prosecution's notification that --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Can I interrupt you, Mr. Robinson.  I will come to

20     that issue.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  Then I have nothing further.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             We are seized -- shall we go into private session?  I think it's

24     safe to deal with everything in private session.

25                           [Private session]


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13                           [Open session]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We are now in open session.

15             Before bringing the next witness, I understand there's one matter

16     that you, Mr. Robinson, wanted to raise in relation to the scheduling.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  One matter we do have in

18     mind, and I alerted the Chamber to this earlier, was the possibility of

19     having one week in October so that we could organise ourselves to conduct

20     some interviews that I have to conduct, myself, in Canada and also to

21     give Dr. Karadzic and our team a little bit of a break between now and

22     the time we have our winter recess.  So we ask that the Chamber consider

23     taking one week in October off so that we can accomplish those things

24     without any disruption down the road to our continuing preparation for

25     our Defence case.  Thank you.


Page 17204

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Has that been notified to the Prosecution?  If I can

 2     hear from you on this matter, Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  We did receive an indication that the Defence would

 4     be bringing such a matter to the attention of the Chamber, and we didn't

 5     take a position on it.  So we -- and that remains.  We're in the

 6     Trial Chamber's hands.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll let the parties know in due course

 8     very soon.

 9             Then we need to draw the curtains in order to bring in the

10     witness.

11             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we can begin doing that.  But while we are

13     doing that, I wanted to also ask the Trial Chamber to consider hearing

14     this witness viva voce as opposed to pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  In the

15     witness's prior statement, he has basically signed a statement from 2008,

16     but subsequently in two trials he's indicated that statement was not

17     complete and has expressed some reservation about the accuracy of that

18     statement.  So in light of those concerns that he has expressed himself,

19     we think that -- and in light of the history of his testimony and

20     statements that have been made with the Office of the Prosecutor, we

21     believe that it's best that he testify viva voce and that the statement

22     not be considered as substantive evidence.  Thank you.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The interpreters would

24     kindly like to ask not to perform any proceedings while there is noise

25     from the curtains going down.


Page 17205

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  My apology.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Let's wait.  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, maybe I can respond before the

 5     witness is brought in to that.  I think that would be jumping the gun a

 6     bit and it's really only half of the story.  The witness's statement was

 7     accepted (redacted)

 8     (redacted)

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, could we go into private session for

11     this.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll go into private session briefly.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'd ask to redact line 5.

14                           [Private session]

15   (redacted)

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 7                           [Open session]

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, if the audio-video unit could show

10     the image of the witness, how he is seen in the monitor.

11             You will be seen like this, Mr. Witness.

12             If the witness could take the solemn declaration, please.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

14     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we could first show

17     the witness the pseudonym sheet, which is 65 ter -- oh.  Actually, the

18     pseudonym sheet's not uploaded yet, so I'll do it a different way.  If we

19     could please bring up in the Serbian language 65 ter 22781, which should

20     not be broadcast.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Are we still on Sanction or something?  Yes.

22                           Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

23        Q.   Now, Witness, without saying your name out loud, reading this

24     first page of this statement in your language, can you confirm that your

25     name is written on the front page as the witness?


Page 17209

 1        A.   Yes, I can.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Can we now go to the last page of the document.  And

 3     the -- is that your signature, Witness?

 4        A.   Yes, it is.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, sir, do you recall that you met me for the first

 6     time recently on 26 July of this year?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And at that time, did I provide you with a copy of the statement

 9     we've just seen in your language?

10        A.   Yes, you did.

11        Q.   And do you recall that you read the statement and then had some

12     comments on it?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And do you recall that you had a clarification to the last page,

15     the last paragraph, I should say, of the statement, and that other than

16     that, you had no other corrections or clarifications to make?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   What I'd like to do now, then, is -- well, subject to the

19     clarification that you made which we will do in a moment here in court,

20     can you confirm that you still have no alterations, changes, corrections

21     to the statement, that it's accurate and that if you were asked about the

22     same topics, the information you provide us today would be the same?

23        A.   I signed this statement two years ago.  The Prosecutor has

24     extracted the things that were needed by you.  It is true what I said,

25     but the statement does not reflect what I said.  In other words, you have


Page 17210

 1     used only the things and portions that you were interested in.

 2        Q.   [Microphone not activated]... but is it correct that you reviewed

 3     the statement --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry.

 6        Q.   But it's correct that you did review the statement paragraph by

 7     paragraph and sign it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Now, I understand that this statement does not contain everything

10     you've said to the Prosecution and does not contain everything you said

11     during the making of the statement, but are the contents of the statement

12     accurate?

13        A.   What was taken is correct, but it was taken out of context, but

14     it's correct.

15        Q.   And do you stand by the statement and would give the same

16     information today if asked on the same questions, albeit with additional

17     comments or additional clarifications or points?

18        A.   Well, all that I said is clear to you, but if the Court needs to

19     understand everything that was happening, I think a clarification is

20     necessary.  The statements are summarised, and perhaps they require

21     clarification.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, Your Honours, what I would propose -- sorry,

23     Your Honours.  What I would propose at this time is to admit the

24     statement, ask the witness to make the clarification he has to the one

25     paragraph, 114, that he's identified, and I think as in previous times,


Page 17211

 1     any additional issues may be clarified during the cross-examination and

 2     much briefer direct which I would have.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before I hear from you, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Witness,

 4     sir, you said like this:  The Prosecution has used only the things and

 5     portions that the Prosecution was interested in, and what is --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What is taken is correct, but it was taken out of

 8     context while it is correct.  Can you give me one or two examples so I

 9     can understand what happened, some concrete -- in some concrete sense?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For example, I don't know the exact

11     item, but it deals with arming.  Did you arm yourselves?  I said, Yes.

12     But before that, I explained the whole history, when we established the

13     formation, when the Muslims started arming, what the videos were, and

14     then they asked, Did you arm yourselves?  I said, Yes.

15             Another examples would be --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED:  Sorry.  Sorry.  Technical problem.  It's okay now.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Witness.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second problem is that about

21     ten people from the OTP spoke to me from 2002 to today.  And during that

22     time they would change, and everybody had -- well, I don't know.  When

23     you speak to somebody from the OTP, they do not differentiate between

24     Mali Zvornik, Veliki Zvornik, while that is very important to us.

25             Another thing that is very important for the accused or for the


Page 17212

 1     indictment is that our whole lives we were getting by because we knew

 2     about that agreement with Holbrooke, and we thought that he would never

 3     be charged, and we thought he could help us at the local level in the

 4     community and it cannot do any harm.  So perhaps I mentioned him in some

 5     context which was not quite accurate in view of the fact that I have just

 6     mentioned.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  If you could locate -- let us know the passage where

 8     he's referred to Mr. Holbrooke.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  There's none in the statement, Your Honour.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I think what the

11     witness is referring to is the fact that he's -- because what he

12     understood to be the situation, he said some things about Dr. Karadzic

13     that may not have been accurate, thinking that Dr. Karadzic would not be

14     brought before a court because of the Holbrooke agreement, not that he

15     had said anything about the Holbrooke agreement in his statement.  That's

16     my understanding.  You could confirm that with the witness, if you like.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  And if I may say, Your Honour, the -- the mention

19     of Dr. Karadzic in paragraph 114 is exactly what the witness clarified to

20     me and found is the only thing which he wanted to change in the

21     statement.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Can I hear you now, Mr. Robinson.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  If you look at the text of

25     Rule 92 ter (A)(3), it requires that the witness attest that the written


Page 17213

 1     statement or transcript accurately reflects the witness's declaration and

 2     what the witness would say if examined.  And I think it's clear here that

 3     the second part of it has not been met, that this is not what the witness

 4     would say if examined, that he wants to add context to it.  He says some

 5     parts of it were inaccurate.  It doesn't accurately -- while it may be

 6     accurate in part, it does not accurately reflect what he would say if

 7     examined, and I think the requirements of Rule 92 ter are not met in this

 8     case.  And I also think, just as a matter of fairness and as a matter of

 9     the Trial Chamber's discretion, that it would be safer to hear the

10     witness's testimony viva voce so you can understand what his position is

11     more accurately.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to reply, Mr. Nicholls?

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just this, Your Honour:  I think that the witness

14     has not said the statement is inaccurate.  What the witness has said is

15     that it's not everything he would say on every topic, and that it's -- if

16     he spoke about these things viva voce, there would be more.  That's

17     almost always true, but I think the requirement has been met, that he

18     would -- that what is in this statement is accurate.  He would say these

19     things.  He might say more but that the Rule has been met in that

20     respect.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just in case, I'm asking you, how much time would

22     you need if required to lead him in viva voce?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm -- I'm sorry to say I'm not sure what an

24     accurate estimate would be.  It would be, I think, at least a day,

25     probably more, and there's no -- there's no mystery.  If I lead him


Page 17214

 1     viva voce, what I will do is -- is intend to do is go through the --

 2     essentially, the entire statement and would go through the same order and

 3     go through these points.  So it would take quite a while.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber carefully reviewed the words of

 7     Rule 92 ter, as well as what the witness said.  Although the witness was

 8     not able to give some concrete examples, the witness clearly said that,

 9     "The statement does not reflect what I said."  In light of this answer of

10     the witness, the Chamber is not satisfied that the requirements of

11     Rule 92 ter has been satisfied.  So I order you to lead evidence live.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

13        Q.   Sir, we're going to go through your testimony now.  Please

14     remember that you've been reminded before to be careful about what you

15     say so that you don't, unintentionally yourself, compromise your

16     protective measures.  Do you understand?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And we will be careful to avoid in public testimony points which

19     would identify you.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we go into private session, please.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

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20                           [Open session]

21             JUDGE KWON:  We are now in open session, Witness.  Whenever you

22     are going to say anything that may reveal your identity, please let us

23     know that we go into private session in order to protect your identity.

24     Do you understand that, Mr. Witness?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need.  We all follow


Page 17221

 1     that.  We know all the witnesses who come.  This is just because of the

 2     name and the face, because of the work that I'm doing in a different

 3     town, but people are just not interested any more in what happened before

 4     and what's going on now.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:

 7        Q.   All right, Witness.  Earlier, we talked just a little bit

 8     about -- well, strike that.

 9             I want to ask you now a little bit about the background in

10     Zvornik in 1991 and your view of the situation building up to the -- to

11     the outbreak of the armed conflict.  So can you tell us quickly what you

12     recall of the approximate population breakdown in Zvornik in 1991, early

13     1991, between different ethnic groups, Muslims and Serbs.

14        A.   I know, because we took part in the census at the time, the

15     Muslim population accounted for 60 per cent of the population.  The Serb

16     population accounted for about 40 per cent.  There were about 1 or 2

17     per cent who declared themselves as Yugoslavs or Croats or some other

18     minority.  That caused some concern among us, because we used to have

19     55 per cent of the population in Zvornik, we the Serbs, according to the

20     previous census.  So we realised that people intentionally moved in, and

21     also there is the traditional birth rate in the Islamic world, as it

22     were.

23        Q.   Now, very briefly, can you explain what the relationship was like

24     between Muslims and Serbs in Zvornik before and after the 1991 elections.

25        A.   Well, while the strong fist of Communism was still there,


Page 17222

 1     inter-ethnic conflicts were punished severely.  So the situation was

 2     good, under quotation marks.  Quite simply, these were two parallel

 3     world.  If I tell you that in my village which is a purely Serb village

 4     ethnically, no one ever married a Muslim.  There was a river dividing us

 5     from a Muslim village, and no one ever had even a meadow on the other

 6     side.  (redacted) and I

 7     never even went there for a dance or something, and they never came to my

 8     village either.  So with Communist oppression, all of this was kept in

 9     peace, apparently.  However, after the multi-party system was introduced,

10     there was this explosion of inter-ethnic tensions that rose all the way

11     until 1992 when the trigger was the international recognition of

12     Bosnia-Herzegovina and their separation from Yugoslavia.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  And, Your Honours, out of an abundance of caution,

15     we should probably have a redaction.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:

18        Q.   And from your -- from your perspective as a member of the SDS

19     then, what was the goal or position of what the SDS wanted at that time

20     for Bosnia-Herzegovina before the outbreak of war?

21        A.   Well, my personal motive for joining the SDS was to preserve

22     Yugoslavia within its former framework.  That was one of the main points

23     of the SDS.  Another thing, in view of the history in that part of the

24     country, it had to do with the survival of myself and my family in this

25     house where we were born and raised.


Page 17223

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I want to move on now to December 1991.  Did you

 2     attend any large SDS meetings that month?

 3        A.   I don't remember exactly what date it was, but I think it was the

 4     end of December.  I attended a meeting at the Holiday Inn where there

 5     were a lot of people, 500, 600, perhaps even more.

 6             For the most part, it was all the representatives of Serb people

 7     in the state organs, in the municipalities, members of parliament.  All

 8     of them were invited.  Since the SDS had most of the members there, but

 9     there were other people who represented the Serb people at municipal and

10     republican level.

11        Q.   And do you recall who was there from the SDS leadership?

12        A.   Well, as far as I can remember, all of them were there.

13        Q.   Do you recall Radovan Karadzic being there?

14        A.   Yes.  I do recall that the president spoke there at that meeting,

15     and I think that Mr. Krajisnik spoke as well, and I think

16     Professor Ekmecic, and I cannot remember who else.

17        Q.   All right.  Excuse me.  To the best of your recollection, tell me

18     what your recall Mr. Karadzic -- President Karadzic saying at that

19     meeting.  In other words, what was his speech about?

20        A.   Well, he informed us about the situation at that moment in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the political situation, also what the position of

22     Bosnia was on an international plane and what the position of Serbia was.

23     And basically what was discussed was the political situation and the

24     attitude of the JNA towards this entire situation and the attitude of

25     Yugoslavia towards Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That was the context, but for the


Page 17224

 1     most part, it had to do with providing information about the political

 2     situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was very difficult.  I think that

 3     the parliament was about to disintegrate, and so on.

 4        Q.   And what did Karadzic say about the situation regarding the JNA?

 5        A.   Well, I mean I cannot remember exactly.  It was about 20 years

 6     ago, but I think that it was that well-known situation that the Muslims

 7     were boycotting the JNA, that quite a few of them were not responding to

 8     call-up, and that the position of the Serbs was that we should promptly

 9     respond to JNA call-up because the war on Croatia was well underway

10     already.  So it was that variant.  And the position of the JNA was at the

11     time -- and I think that a reference was even made then.  I don't know if

12     it was Mr. Karadzic or somebody else, but the American embassy at the

13     time officially supported the preservation of Yugoslavia.

14        Q.   Do you recall Karadzic discussing whether he'd been in contact

15     with President Milosevic about the situation?

16        A.   I really do not remember whether he mentioned Mr. Milosevic then.

17     Well, there were journalists there and they were reporting about it, and

18     it can probably be seen from the newspaper reports at the time whether he

19     did mention that or not.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, may we go into private session for

21     one moment?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


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16                           [Open session]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   Now, Witness, earlier you were asked on this topic of what

20     Mr. Karadzic had said at this meeting, and you explained what you've just

21     said about the American ambassador, and you also said:

22             "And he," Karadzic, "also had been to Belgrade and spoken to

23     President Milosevic.  And then we also had the support of the Serbian

24     people to preserve the Yugoslavia, albeit truncated."

25             Does that help you to remember what Dr. Karadzic said in his


Page 17226

 1     speech?

 2        A.   Well, no.  It's been 20 years.  I really cannot remember.  I

 3     probably mentioned that in that case that you referred to, no problem

 4     with that, but, I mean, thinking of the consequences of this sentence, I

 5     mean, free interpretation remembering some meeting that took place 20

 6     years ago and who said what, that would not be a normal thing, especially

 7     at that time I did not attach any importance to that meeting, and, I

 8     mean, I didn't realise there was anything important going on.

 9        Q.   Excuse me, let me just clarify that.  This is a meeting with

10     hundreds of people.  You said who all the representatives were who were

11     there.  You said that you joined the SDS because of your concern about

12     your people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you said there was talk about

13     the JNA and support and what would happen.  Let me ask you, are you --

14     did this have importance to you at that time?  Did you attach any

15     importance to this meeting?

16        A.   Well, believe me, it's the end of 1991.  It was like the fastest

17     movie you could imagine.  I could not even count what was going on and

18     what was more important than the other thing, but there were hundreds of

19     things happening at local level and -- I don't know.

20        Q.   And just let me ask again though.  Out of these hundreds of

21     things happening at very quick speed, was this meeting important?

22        A.   I did not notice a difference between that and other meetings

23     except that this one was a more massive one, as it were.

24        Q.   Okay.  Were any documents distributed at this meeting?

25        A.   No documents were distributed to the participants.  I did not


Page 17227

 1     receive a single document.  But when I returned to Zvornik, I found out

 2     from the president of the SDS that he had received some document that

 3     later on we read together.  It included an elaboration of some theses as

 4     to how one should behave in crisis situations.  That was Variant A for

 5     municipalities where the majority population was Serb and Variant B for

 6     municipalities where Serbs were a minority.

 7             Later, as for the municipal variant, we looked at this paper and

 8     we assessed that it was something that was not bad for implementation in

 9     a community such as Zvornik was.  And I think we corrected some things

10     with regards to Variant B.  We got rid of some things that we could not

11     adopt but we did adopt some of it as a good idea.

12        Q.   And how soon after this meeting was it you say when you returned

13     to Zvornik?  You found out from this document from the president of the

14     SDS.

15        A.   Well, a few days.  Five or six days, not more than that.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I please have P005 on the screen.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, now, looking at that document in your

18     language, tell us what that is, please, if you've seen that document

19     before.

20        A.   Yes.  That's the instructions that I got from the president of

21     the party.

22        Q.   And when you say the president of the party, could you say that

23     person's name?

24        A.   Mr. Grujic.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  And now could we go into private session, please.


Page 17228

 1                           [Private session]

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

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Page 17229

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Page 17232

 1   (redacted)

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17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23                           [Open session]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll have a break for half an hour.

25                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.


Page 17233

 1                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Before we resume, Mr. Robinson and Mr. Tieger, the

 3     Chamber has decided that it will take a week off in the week of 10th of

 4     October.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes Mr. Nicholls.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  If we could go

 8     back into private session.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

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Page 17234

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Page 17237

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   Now, Witness, can you please tell me -- take a look at this

 5     document adopted on 15 March 1992, so before the outbreak of hostilities

 6     is the date you've put on the armed conflict.  The Assembly of the

 7     Serbian municipality of Zvornik adopted this decision regarding the ban

 8     on the sale of real properties.  And if you look at item number I, I

 9     won't read the whole portion out, but these types of real property cannot

10     be subject to trade except between ethnic Serbs within the municipal

11     territory.  And there is a similar clause under number VII regarding

12     privately owned real estate between ethnic Serbs cannot be traded to

13     other ethnic groups.

14             Can you tell me about this decision.  Why was this type of

15     decision issued regulating the sale of property on an ethnic basis and

16     prohibiting property from going outside of members of the Serb ethnicity?

17        A.   Well, I remember this decision.  Since Zvornik has some specific

18     features, a lot of Muslims lived in Serbia.  Now, in the face of the

19     heightened tensions, there emerged a huge influx of Muslims from

20     Mali Zvornik and Sakaj [phoen] -- were swapping land with the Serbs.  In

21     fact, that only deteriorated and exacerbated the ethnic composition of

22     Zvornik to the detriment of the Serbs.  Now, given that the war in

23     Croatia was in progress and that the situation was such that for three

24     months Serbs were holding guard in their own villages, as did the

25     Muslims, the Serbs did not dare enter any Muslim village and vice versa.


Page 17238

 1     So people were already divided on the ground.  And under such

 2     extraordinary circumstances, we thought that it would not be good to

 3     engage in any swapping or sale of land given that the circumstances were

 4     so exceptional.

 5        Q.   Now, just let me clarify.  This decision is from 15 March 1992.

 6     You're talking about the war being in process and for three months the

 7     Serbs were holding guard.  Was the war in process on 15 March 1992 when

 8     this decision was issued?

 9        A.   No, no.  I said clearly that on the 15th of March there was no

10     war, but I am telling you that before the war, the situation in Zvornik

11     municipality was such that both the Serbs and the Muslims were armed.

12     Three or four months before the war, the Serbian police could not enter

13     any Muslim village or vice versa because that was the division on the

14     ground, and that implied [as interpreted] guards for a few months before

15     the outbreak of hostilities, because that was the factual situation on

16     the ground.  Everybody was armed.

17        Q.   And do you recall, as you sit here today, whether this decision

18     we've just been looking at was pursuant or in relation to the plan B as

19     you're called it?

20        A.   As far as I --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer from

22     the beginning.  The interpreters couldn't understand him.  Sorry.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, the interpreters were not able to hear your

24     answer.  Could you repeat it kindly.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that was not in


Page 17239

 1     compliance with plan B, because I think that there is no mention in

 2     plan B of such provisions.  This was our measure taken in Zvornik

 3     municipality in order to exert pressure on the incumbent authorities

 4     because we were disenfranchised, and we were put in the position of being

 5     in opposition.  That was the situation at the local level.

 6             If you look at these plans A and B, they were never applied

 7     according to the same pattern in every municipality.  It was different in

 8     each municipality.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:

10        Q.   And let me ask you how you know, just so you can explain to us

11     the way in which the Variant A and B instructions were applied in each

12     municipality.

13        A.   We communicated with Ugljevik, Bijeljina, Bratunac, Srebrenica,

14     neighbouring municipalities like Sekovici.  All of them had their own

15     respective patterns.

16        Q.   And, sorry, who is the "we communicated"?  Who's the "we" in that

17     answer?

18        A.   I am referring to the representatives of the Serbs, representing

19     them in the government organs, whether they were members of the SDS, of

20     the League of Communists, or people from the party of Ante Markovic.  All

21     in all, those were the Serbs who held offices and who were elected at --

22     by the Serbs at the elections.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  [Microphone not activated]... Your Honours, I

24     would ask -- Your Honours, I'd ask to admit that -- or I tender that

25     document, rather.


Page 17240

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be admitted.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3151, Your Honours.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'd like to bring up another document now quickly.

 4     That's 14639, please.  And I would ask if we can just quickly show the

 5     witness the second page of this document.

 6        Q.   Now, you've seen this before, sir.  Could you tell us what this

 7     is, what this document is about.

 8        A.   This is another proof that Zvornik functioned as a state within a

 9     state.  You can see here that it was the municipality paying out

10     pensions, which is nowhere within it -- its remit.  (redacted)

11     (redacted)  This has to do with

12     the paying out of Serb pensioners who were receiving their remuneration

13     through the Investbanka in Zvornik.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, could we go into private session for

15     one moment.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 17241

 1                           [Open session]

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   Now, this document concerns the allocation of assets for pensions

 5     from April and states:

 6              "We ask you for the purposes of payment of pensions for April to

 7     the pensioners of Serb ethnicity, who receive their pensions through

 8     Investbanka ..." to enlarge it.

 9             Why is it, going back to April, there were only persons of Serbs

10     ethnicities who are on this document to receive pensions?

11        A.   You're not right.  This is dated the 17th of June and this is a

12     backpay of these pensions that were due in April.  On the 17th of June,

13     there were no Muslims in Zvornik anymore.

14        Q.   It's a backpay for April.  That's my point.  And there were no

15     Muslims left in Zvornik by June.

16        A.   Yes, but the payment is being made, according to the document, on

17     the 17th of June.  So they were about two months overdue.  And on the

18     17th of June, no pensions could have been paid to the Muslims because

19     none of them was physically present any longer in Zvornik.

20        Q.   Okay.  Now, you saw this document.  I'll ask you:  Did you see

21     any similar documents authorising the paying of pensions to people of

22     ethnicity other than Serb?

23        A.   I have no information about that.

24        Q.   Let me see -- let me ask you a question about your --

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  If we go into private session, Your Honour.


Page 17242

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2                           [Private session]

 3   (redacted)

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Page 17243

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Page 17245

 1   (redacted)

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 8   (redacted)

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10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16                           [Open session]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   We're in open session now, sir, so if you think we need to go

20     into private session for a part of your answer, just tell me.

21             You spoke earlier about the difficult ethnic tensions before the

22     war, about every side arming themselves and about standing guard.  I want

23     to ask you now about your knowledge of the arming of -- of persons before

24     the actual outbreak of the conflict.

25             Now, first, which -- which groups were arming themselves,


Page 17246

 1     Muslims, Serbs, both, neither?  Can you tell us who was arming?

 2        A.   Both were arming, and there was a race as to who would do it more

 3     successfully and better.  They had their own methods, and that was

 4     Croatia, the front from the Croatian front where there were many

 5     volunteers on the side of Croatia.  They were importing them from abroad,

 6     then the MUP was expanding.  We had such a high number of the reserve

 7     forces, much more than the international standard was, and the Serbs used

 8     the JNA more.  They would enlist in the JNA.  They would use the fact

 9     that the Muslims were not enlisting, so they were filling up the reserve

10     forces.  And also there were other weapons issued from the

11     Territorial Defence, but mostly the biggest source was the army, the JNA.

12        Q.   And just tell me if you have any knowledge about the arming by

13     the Muslims in your area.

14        A.   Well, as I said, mostly it was from the Croatian front and

15     through foreign purchases.  I also mentioned the example that we received

16     information as well as a tape that sometime in 1991, in October, I saw

17     that they established the Patriotic League in the village of Godus and

18     what surprised us very much at the time was that we saw about 100 armed

19     persons dressed up to standards of NATO, wearing vests and with other

20     equipment.  And there was panic, and to this very day in this place of

21     Horgos there is a monument saying that in October 1991 they formed this

22     Patriotic League.  So, for us, that was the starting shot for us to start

23     pushing the army and people in Serbia who would be able to help us in

24     this part of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, because there was a

25     lull then with the Croats.  There were no combat actions, so we used some


Page 17247

 1     private connections in Slavonia, Baranja, from Beli Manastir, and so on,

 2     to bring in the bulk of the weapons.  Besides the fact that the army

 3     distributed weapons for the reserve forces through some personal

 4     connections, we brought weapons from Slavonia, Baranja, from

 5     Beli Manastir.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  And the interpreter notes:  We did not hear the

 7     second location.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:

 9        Q.   If you could repeat the second location.  I think it must have

10     been at the end of your answer.  The interpreters didn't hear it.

11        A.   I was saying from Baranja it was from Darda and Beli Manastir.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And let me just ask you one point on your -- on your

13     last answer.  Is your -- is your information that the Muslims were arming

14     up to NATO standards?

15        A.   No.  No.  I'm just saying that we saw this video from the

16     founding of the Patriotic League, and we could see the people there were

17     dressed like members of a professional army.  They had helmets,

18     bullet-proof vests, automatic weapons, night vision equipment,

19     communications equipment, just like any other professional army and

20     special units at that.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  May we go into private session, Your Honour.

22                           [Private session]

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 17248

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  I neglected to tender --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  14639 will be admitted as

 7     Exhibit P3152.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  If we could go back to private now and

 9     move on.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

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Page 17249

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Page 17264

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25                           [Open session]


Page 17265

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.  It's time to take a break.

 2     We will break for one hour and resume at 1.30.

 3                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, before I -- could we go into private

 7     session, please.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9                           [Private session]

10   (redacted)

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Page 17266

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Page 17275

 1   (redacted)

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 8   (redacted)

 9                           [Open session]

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:

12        Q.   Now, sir, in open session could you please describe to us what

13     you remember of the way the attack on Zvornik took place from the

14     beginning of who ordered the attack on how it commenced.

15        A.   The attack on Zvornik, as I said, was ordered by Arkan.  His men,

16     some 20 soldiers, took part in this attack.  There were also some 100

17     volunteers, and another 100 or 200 people from the Zvornik TO and MUP.

18     So I estimate that following Arkan's order, some 2- to 300 men launched

19     an attack on Zvornik.  (redacted)

20     (redacted)  And

21     the conflict lasted from 4.00 or 5.00 until 8.00, and that makes it about

22     three hours.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honour, if we could --

24             JUDGE KWON:  You can carry on.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.


Page 17276

 1        Q.   And could you tell me the names that you remember of some of the

 2     volunteer groups that took part.

 3        A.   I think -- I'm not sure, because it's been a long time since

 4     then, but I think the Niski Pivarski were there, Zuco's group.  There

 5     were some who said that they were from Vukovar, White Eagles.  It's very

 6     difficult to know now who was there, you I think that there were about a

 7     hundred of these volunteers in my estimate.

 8        Q.   Do you recall if there was a group of volunteers called Gogic's

 9     group?

10        A.   Well, yes.  There was a group of volunteers from Loznica, yes.

11     About ten people at the most from Loznica.

12        Q.   And did they take part in this action?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And then what -- what was the outcome of this action?  What

15     happened immediately after the attack ended, as you say?

16        A.   The outcome of the action was that about half of Zvornik was

17     placed under the control of the Serbian side, all the way up to the

18     department store.  Then for the next 20 days or so, there was a part that

19     was no man's land because it was controlled by firing up from Kula, and

20     once Kula was placed under Serbian command, then practically all of

21     Zvornik came under Serbian control.

22        Q.   Now, I'd like you to tell me --

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, if I may request private session.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25                           [Private session]


Page 17277

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Page 17281

 1   (redacted)

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22                           [Open session]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session, Your Honours.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:

25        Q.   Okay, Witness.  What is the -- you've already stated these are


Page 17282

 1     what we refer to as the Variant A and B plan or instructions.  What is

 2     the heading on the top left?

 3        A.   It states:

 4             "The Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina,

 5     Main Board."

 6        Q.   [Microphone not activated]... what is the next -- what does the

 7     next writing on the document say?

 8        A.   "Strictly confidential, copy number 100."

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So did I understand you to say that this was an open

10     document?  It was openly discussed?

11        A.   That's how we treated it, and you can see that besides the

12     Crisis Staff members there are also members from other parties there, the

13     people from the SDA who were sitting in the offices next door knew about

14     it.  We didn't understand this to be particularly confidential or

15     anything like that.  Party post was delivered in a particular way.  This

16     was given by somebody to Grujic at a meeting at the Holiday Inn.

17        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  I'm going to move on.  We can stay in

18     public session.  After the takeover of Zvornik, the attack, whatever we

19     want to call it, how long did the Crisis Staff continue to function in

20     that form?

21        A.   I'm not sure, but I think it was till the 20th of April, and then

22     after the 20th of April, sometime the temporary government was formed.

23        Q.   And who, as best you recall, was the head of the temporary or

24     interim government?

25        A.   Grujic was at the head of the provisional government, the


Page 17283

 1     temporary government.

 2        Q.   And who were -- well, were any of the members who'd been on the

 3     Crisis Staff members of the provisional government?  Any others, I should

 4     say.

 5        A.   Yes, some were part of the continuity, and they transferred from

 6     the Crisis Staff to the interim government.

 7        Q.   Can you name the persons you remember who were part of that

 8     continuity?

 9        A.   I think Grujic, Radic, Peric.  I'm not sure about any others.

10     There is a list in the documents that was shown to me before, so perhaps

11     they are in the list.

12        Q.   Okay.  And that would be Stevo Radic and Rade Peric?

13        A.   Yes, I did mention them.

14        Q.   And were there any persons of Muslim ethnicity in the provisional

15     government?

16        A.   I do remember Mr. Muhamed Jelkic.  He was a cardiologist from

17     Zvornik.

18        Q.   And what was his role there?  Was he voluntarily a member?  Can

19     you explain why he was a member?

20        A.   I don't think he was too enthusiastic about being a member of the

21     interim government, but I think that he was one of the most respectable

22     Muslims in Zvornik because he was from a good family.  He was a

23     cardiologist.  He worked at the medical centre, and he enjoyed a good

24     reputation among the Muslims and the Serbs, and this government tried to

25     forge good links with the Muslim sides, and I think that he even


Page 17284

 1     participated in efforts to free a Serb policeman who was captured.  He

 2     was a kind of link between the interim government and the Muslims.

 3        Q.   Now, who was the TO commander during the actual takeover of

 4     Zvornik, during the combat?

 5        A.   I think that was Marko Pavlovic.  At the beginning, there was

 6     some two or three shifts that lasted for a day or two.  Some other people

 7     were mentioned, but I think that Marko Pavlovic was the TO commander from

 8     the point of time when Zvornik was attacked onwards.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  If I could have 17245, please.  And page 37 of the

10     B/C/S, please.

11        Q.   Have you seen this document before?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And this is -- this is a decision of the temporary or interim

14     government, Serbian government of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, on

15     10 April, appointing Marko Pavlovic, TO headquarters commander.

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And whose name is at the bottom of the appointment?

18        A.   President of the interim government Grujic.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'd offer that, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3155, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Where do you have Mr. Grujic's name in English?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't actually see it on the English.  It is on

24     the --

25             JUDGE KWON:  In the next --


Page 17285

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.  It is a difficult format.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It's on the next page, yes.  You can carry on.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   Now, at about this time did some members, in your words, of the

 5     Crisis Staff or provisional government quit and withdraw from that

 6     organisation?

 7        A.   Well, I did not take part in anything at the time, so I don't

 8     know what you're thinking of, so if you can remind me.  I don't know

 9     exactly what you are thinking of.  I wasn't participating in the work of

10     the TO or the interim government at that time, or the Crisis Staff.

11        Q.   Well, do you recall Jovo Mijatovic and Jovan Ivanovic withdrawing

12     from the Crisis Staff?

13        A.   They resigned and did not take part in all of that anymore.

14     After being beaten by Arkan, they were very unhappy about that, and even

15     for a while they suspected that somebody set them up from the

16     Crisis Staff.  So they withdrew.  They were disappointed with what was

17     going on.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we go into private session, please?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 17286

 1

 2

 3

 4

 5

 6

 7

 8

 9

10

11  Page 17286 redacted. Private session.

12

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25


Page 17287

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We are in open session, Mr. Nicholls.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:

18        Q.   Witness, you've testified, for example, that the Crisis Staff

19     financed the paramilitaries, that they were supported, they were given

20     weapons by the provisional government and Crisis Staff when they arrived.

21     How do you say -- is in that -- you say they have nothing to do with the

22     provisional government, but you've explained even the way some of them

23     were billeted and their accommodation paid for by the provisional

24     government.  Can you just explain it?

25        A.   Of course.  That is why I asked to testify live.  What I stated


Page 17288

 1     is correct.  The Crisis Staff was gathering volunteers, paying them.

 2     They were on a payroll.  But I also explained that at one point in time

 3     these volunteers because the strongest armed force in Zvornik, and that

 4     it culminated to such an extent that there was an official proposal made

 5     that Zvornik should be named Zuca's town.  Can you imagine that?  It's as

 6     if seven or eight persons came to visit you at your home, they get drunk

 7     and they then start mistreating you and your children and everybody.  You

 8     ask for help.  Help did arrive, a bit late though, by way of a special

 9     unit from the MUP of Sarajevo reinforced by some other forces.  They

10     arrested them, but until that happened, by the time this information

11     reached Pale, I said that there was no communication.  Practically there

12     was no communication.  And by the time a reaction arrived from up there,

13     ugly things had already happened.  That's my answer to this question.

14     Otherwise, let me just say that everyone in Zvornik knows that these

15     paramilitaries, after all, the Muslims know this, too, they mistreated

16     the president of the Crisis Staff.  They took him out to execute him.  He

17     was a martyr, not a president of a Crisis Staff.  Zuco, Captain Dragan

18     both detained him, anyone who wanted to arrest him.  Quite simply, from

19     the time when Arkan came and until these paramilitaries were arrested,

20     they were the strongest unit in Zvornik, and no one dared oppose them in

21     any way, let alone not give them a salary or fuel or whatever, do

22     anything against their wishes, what they had asked for.  They wanted to

23     attack Kalesija and they were using an engine that they wanted to

24     transform into a train for that attack, and they used millions for it.

25     Not to go into detail, but the culmination of this was that there was an


Page 17289

 1     official proposal in the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik that Zvornik be

 2     renamed into Zuca's town.  Can you then imagine the environment that we

 3     lived in?

 4        Q.   So these groups of volunteers or paramilitaries that you're

 5     discussing, if I understood you correctly, they were invited by the

 6     Crisis Staff who paid for their transportation; is that right?

 7        A.   We, the Serbs who were a minority in Zvornik, asked all

 8     volunteers, I mean all of those who volunteered to come.  We gave them

 9     weapons.  They joined units.  We put them on the payroll of the TO and

10     that was the practice then.  However, very soon they withdrew from the

11     front line.  They set up check-points on the road.  They started seizing

12     cars.  They started checking people who were going in and out of town,

13     because they had their own propaganda, too.  They were not naive about

14     any of this.  They said, you know, The government is taking away your

15     money.  They're selling Muslims for money.  They were saying millions of

16     subversive things like that.  This was some kind of negative marketing

17     regarding the authorities.  For a while they even had a lot of support

18     amongst the population, you know, because when there's this kind of

19     disbelief, it is fertile ground for rumours and misinformation.  They

20     used that skilfully.  So along with the volunteers that came from

21     elsewhere, quite a few of the locals from the TO joined these

22     paramilitary units.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  All right.  Could I have 07136, please.

24             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting for that document, sir, by

25     Captain Dragan, who allegedly detained the president of the Crisis Staff


Page 17290

 1     together with Zuco, who did -- who did you refer to, Captain Dragan?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think his name is

 3     Dragan Vasiljkovic.  He operated in Croatia, and he came to us as

 4     "Captain Dragan."

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:

 7        Q.   If you just look at this document, sir.  You've seen this before.

 8     Invoice dated 30th of April.  Does this document indicate the provisional

 9     government paying for bringing volunteers from Belgrade to Zvornik, if we

10     look at page 2 especially?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would tender that, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  This will be admitted.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3156, Your Honours.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:

16        Q.   You talked about some of these groups joining the TO and their

17     members.  Did any particular volunteer/paramilitary group join the

18     police?

19        A.   As far as I know, all of those who came were deployed in the

20     Territorial Defence.  But later on, I think it was in May, precisely in

21     an attempt to stop these well-organised paramilitary groups, one group

22     was admitted into the police.  Since they were from Loznica, we knew

23     them.  They were neighbours from across the Drina.  They joined the

24     police in order reinforce it and precisely to put a stop to these

25     organised groups.


Page 17291

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we go into private session for one moment?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But at the time I was not in the

 3     police or the Crisis Staff.  This is what I know as a citizen.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:

22        Q.   All right.  I'm going to go through some of these documents --

23     some documents quickly, Witness, which relate to what you've just told us

24     about the paramilitaries being paid, being put on the payroll of the

25     provisional government, and the first one is 12159.


Page 17292

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could this be made more

 2     specific?  I have an objection.  The government did not pay

 3     paramilitaries.  The government paid volunteers in accordance with the

 4     law.  It is only later that the volunteers became paramilitaries.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  I believe that's matter for cross.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree.  You can clarify with the witness.

 7     And it is the accused not the witness who intervened just before.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry, I can't see the English of 12159.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I think we have it.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, I'll have to, I'm sorry, come back to that

11     one.  Could I have 14640, please.

12        Q.   Now, sir --

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  And can we go to the second page for the witness

14     in Serbian.  And continue on to page 6 of the Serbian.

15        Q.   Now, Witness, I'm showing you page 6 of a document entitled,

16     "Payroll of unemployed reservists who were at the military exercise," and

17     this is for the month of May, 1992, 1st of May, going on.

18             First of all, do you see who signs this payroll?

19        A.   On behalf of the TO staff, but then I'm not sure whose signature

20     it is.

21        Q.   Does it say TO commander?

22        A.   It looks like Marko Pavlovic's signature, but I'm not sure.

23        Q.   And he was -- and he was TO commander in May 1992; correct?

24        A.   Correct.

25        Q.   And if we can scroll over to the left.  Number 41, who is that


Page 17293

 1     gentleman listed as number 41 who is getting paid by Marko -- or who

 2     Marko Pavlovic is signing off for this man's pay in May?

 3        A.   Vuckovic, Vojin Zuca.

 4        Q.   [Microphone not activated]... is that the same Zuca you were

 5     talking about earlier?  Is that the same Zuca you were speaking about

 6     earlier?

 7        A.   Yes, the same one we were speaking about.  I have already said

 8     that every volunteer who came was sent either to a TO unit or to the MUP,

 9     and they would pay such a person as a member of the TO.  Until they

10     became the strongest ones.  Once they became the strongest ones, then

11     they took whatever they wanted themselves.

12        Q.   All right.  And who would send them to the TO and incorporate

13     them into the TO as you've just talked about?

14        A.   When they would come, they would report to the Crisis Staff, to

15     the provisional government, and then they would go directly to the TO,

16     and then they would be deployed in accordance with their capabilities

17     depending on what kind of military service they did, et cetera.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour, and would I tender that

19     document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3157, Your Honours.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  And, Your Honours, could I now have 13326, please.

23        Q.   Now, Witness, this document is titled:

24             "List of payments to be made to TO members of the Serbian

25     municipality of Zvornik for the month of May."


Page 17294

 1             You've seen this document before.  Just very quickly, is this

 2     another payroll for volunteers?

 3        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, yes, but this is already annoying me, that I am

 4     supposed to comment on a document from May that you are showing me now?

 5     Bring someone from the government.  I can just read it out as an

 6     announcer or whatever.  This doesn't mean a thing to me.

 7        Q.   Well, the reason is you already spoke about this document in your

 8     statement and said that you recognised it as a unit of the Serbian

 9     Radical Party led by Janko Lakic.  That is why we're showing it to you at

10     this point.  Could I have 23235, please.

11        A.   I have no comment.  If you want me to read this out, I will read

12     it out then.  It is a list.  The TO is paying a unit for the month of

13     May, and I have no comment in relation to that.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And this is part of --

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, if I can explain.  23 -- 23235 is

16     the remainder of the document shown to the witness that was in paragraph

17     78 of his statement that he commented on.  Unfortunately, just the first

18     two pages of this ERN range were originally included.  So this is just --

19     although the statement is now not being admitted 92 ter, this -- these

20     following pages are part of the same range the witness was shown for

21     23235 for -- sorry, P00159.  And I've spoken with my friend who has no

22     objection to these being shown to the witness.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:

25        Q.   Now, Witness, I'm not trying to annoy you, but these are the


Page 17295

 1     remainder of the pages.  Again, you don't need to comment more than this

 2     is another payroll certificate for volunteers; is that right?

 3        A.   I can just read it out like an announcer:  "Certificate by which

 4     it is being confirmed that Boris Bosner received the following amounts as

 5     compensation for the payments to the Serbian municipality Zvornik --"

 6        Q.   I'm not asking you to read it aloud.  I'm just asking you if you

 7     know what it is.

 8        A.   This is a certificate, and then I can read out what it says

 9     there.  I don't see in which other way I can comment upon this.

10        Q.   Who is the first person named on this list?

11        A.   Number one says Janko Lukic.  That is what is written here.

12        Q.   And we can see that it's -- we can see that there's a sort of

13     handwritten correction to "Janko Lakic."  Who was Janko Lakic?  Did you

14     know who Janko Lakic was in May 1992?

15        A.   If it has to do with the Janko Lakic I know, this was a man who

16     was born in the territory of the municipality of Zvornik.  In 1991, he

17     lived in Mali Zvornik.  I don't know whether he was a volunteer or

18     whether it was his duty to respond to a call up from this unit.  Now, I

19     don't know.  The man was born in the territory of the municipality of

20     Zvornik but I know that he lived in Mali Zvornik in Serbia as I did and

21     many others.  Now, whether he was a volunteer or he responded to a

22     call-up from the TO, I don't know.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would submit that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We would object because the


Page 17296

 1     witness hasn't really confirmed the contents of the document.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  But his observation was that it was consistent with

 4     what he saw at the time before.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  That may be Mr. President, but with respect -- I

 6     don't want to say anything in open session that might reveal his

 7     identity, but the time-period makes a difference, in our view.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But if I may add something.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes, Mr. Witness.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, Judge, perhaps it seems

11     that I have now started paying attention to details, because this is my

12     fifth trial.  Look at this document.  There is no number here.  There is

13     no stamp.  No one signed that they received this money.  Commenting upon

14     a document like this and saying anything about any of these people here,

15     I think that is a thankless thing.  As for what the Prosecutor asked me

16     to do, I can read all of this out like an announcer, but I really have no

17     knowledge of any of this.  There is no stamp.  There is no number.

18             JUDGE KWON:  That is sufficient, Mr. Witness.

19             Yes, Mr. Nicholls, would you like to reply?

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just, Your Honours, that the -- yes.  Perhaps -- I

21     don't think we need to go into private session.  The witness said that he

22     knew the first person named on the list, knew that he was from Serbia and

23     was serving in a unit in the TO.  So he does know about this document.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, may I intervene?  Unless

25     there is a mistake in the translation, the witness did not say that he


Page 17297

 1     was from Serbia.  The first person on the list is from Zvornik.  He was

 2     born in Veliki Zvornik, but he lived in Mali Zvornik.  He is not from

 3     Serbia.  He just lived in Serbia, and that is the basis upon which he

 4     could have been a military conscript.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's correct.  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Given the answer of the witness that he has no

 8     knowledge of this document, the Chamber is of the view that the

 9     Prosecution will have another opportunity to tender this.  It's not

10     appropriate to admit this document through this witness.  We'll not admit

11     this.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  I see the time, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  Thank you.  For planning purpose, how much

14     would you need for your remainder of your examination-in-chief tomorrow,

15     Mr. Nicholls?

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would -- I would try to finish in less than two

17     hours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We will resume tomorrow at 9.00, and it

19     will be a normal sitting, not being an extended one.

20             The hearing is now adjourned.

21                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.01 p.m.,

22                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day

23                           of August, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.

24

25