Page 17199
1 Tuesday, 16 August 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. We're back to work, back to
6 normal.
7 Before we -- I deal with the matter I prepared, I wonder whether
8 there's anything to be raised by the parties.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Good morning. First of all,
10 I would like to introduce Vincent Le Junter, who is a legal intern
11 working on our team who will be present during the first session this
12 morning.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Robinson. Welcome.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Secondly, Mr. President, we have filed this
15 morning a motion for modification of protective measures for the next
16 witness, KDZ-555, and we have done that in another case. It's a
17 confidential filing because we were advised yesterday by the
18 Prosecution's notification that --
19 JUDGE KWON: Can I interrupt you, Mr. Robinson. I will come to
20 that issue.
21 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. Then I have nothing further.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
23 We are seized -- shall we go into private session? I think it's
24 safe to deal with everything in private session.
25 [Private session]
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13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We are now in open session.
15 Before bringing the next witness, I understand there's one matter
16 that you, Mr. Robinson, wanted to raise in relation to the scheduling.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. One matter we do have in
18 mind, and I alerted the Chamber to this earlier, was the possibility of
19 having one week in October so that we could organise ourselves to conduct
20 some interviews that I have to conduct, myself, in Canada and also to
21 give Dr. Karadzic and our team a little bit of a break between now and
22 the time we have our winter recess. So we ask that the Chamber consider
23 taking one week in October off so that we can accomplish those things
24 without any disruption down the road to our continuing preparation for
25 our Defence case. Thank you.
Page 17204
1 JUDGE KWON: Has that been notified to the Prosecution? If I can
2 hear from you on this matter, Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: We did receive an indication that the Defence would
4 be bringing such a matter to the attention of the Chamber, and we didn't
5 take a position on it. So we -- and that remains. We're in the
6 Trial Chamber's hands.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll let the parties know in due course
8 very soon.
9 Then we need to draw the curtains in order to bring in the
10 witness.
11 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we can begin doing that. But while we are
13 doing that, I wanted to also ask the Trial Chamber to consider hearing
14 this witness viva voce as opposed to pursuant to Rule 92 ter. In the
15 witness's prior statement, he has basically signed a statement from 2008,
16 but subsequently in two trials he's indicated that statement was not
17 complete and has expressed some reservation about the accuracy of that
18 statement. So in light of those concerns that he has expressed himself,
19 we think that -- and in light of the history of his testimony and
20 statements that have been made with the Office of the Prosecutor, we
21 believe that it's best that he testify viva voce and that the statement
22 not be considered as substantive evidence. Thank you.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The interpreters would
24 kindly like to ask not to perform any proceedings while there is noise
25 from the curtains going down.
Page 17205
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. My apology.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry.
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's wait. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, maybe I can respond before the
5 witness is brought in to that. I think that would be jumping the gun a
6 bit and it's really only half of the story. The witness's statement was
7 accepted (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 JUDGE KWON: No.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, could we go into private session for
11 this.
12 JUDGE KWON: We'll go into private session briefly.
13 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd ask to redact line 5.
14 [Private session]
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7 [Open session]
8 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
9 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, if the audio-video unit could show
10 the image of the witness, how he is seen in the monitor.
11 You will be seen like this, Mr. Witness.
12 If the witness could take the solemn declaration, please.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour. If we could first show
17 the witness the pseudonym sheet, which is 65 ter -- oh. Actually, the
18 pseudonym sheet's not uploaded yet, so I'll do it a different way. If we
19 could please bring up in the Serbian language 65 ter 22781, which should
20 not be broadcast.
21 JUDGE KWON: Are we still on Sanction or something? Yes.
22 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
23 Q. Now, Witness, without saying your name out loud, reading this
24 first page of this statement in your language, can you confirm that your
25 name is written on the front page as the witness?
Page 17209
1 A. Yes, I can.
2 Q. Okay. Can we now go to the last page of the document. And
3 the -- is that your signature, Witness?
4 A. Yes, it is.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, sir, do you recall that you met me for the first
6 time recently on 26 July of this year?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And at that time, did I provide you with a copy of the statement
9 we've just seen in your language?
10 A. Yes, you did.
11 Q. And do you recall that you read the statement and then had some
12 comments on it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And do you recall that you had a clarification to the last page,
15 the last paragraph, I should say, of the statement, and that other than
16 that, you had no other corrections or clarifications to make?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What I'd like to do now, then, is -- well, subject to the
19 clarification that you made which we will do in a moment here in court,
20 can you confirm that you still have no alterations, changes, corrections
21 to the statement, that it's accurate and that if you were asked about the
22 same topics, the information you provide us today would be the same?
23 A. I signed this statement two years ago. The Prosecutor has
24 extracted the things that were needed by you. It is true what I said,
25 but the statement does not reflect what I said. In other words, you have
Page 17210
1 used only the things and portions that you were interested in.
2 Q. [Microphone not activated]... but is it correct that you reviewed
3 the statement --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry.
6 Q. But it's correct that you did review the statement paragraph by
7 paragraph and sign it?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, I understand that this statement does not contain everything
10 you've said to the Prosecution and does not contain everything you said
11 during the making of the statement, but are the contents of the statement
12 accurate?
13 A. What was taken is correct, but it was taken out of context, but
14 it's correct.
15 Q. And do you stand by the statement and would give the same
16 information today if asked on the same questions, albeit with additional
17 comments or additional clarifications or points?
18 A. Well, all that I said is clear to you, but if the Court needs to
19 understand everything that was happening, I think a clarification is
20 necessary. The statements are summarised, and perhaps they require
21 clarification.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, Your Honours, what I would propose -- sorry,
23 Your Honours. What I would propose at this time is to admit the
24 statement, ask the witness to make the clarification he has to the one
25 paragraph, 114, that he's identified, and I think as in previous times,
Page 17211
1 any additional issues may be clarified during the cross-examination and
2 much briefer direct which I would have.
3 JUDGE KWON: Before I hear from you, Mr. Robinson, Mr. Witness,
4 sir, you said like this: The Prosecution has used only the things and
5 portions that the Prosecution was interested in, and what is --
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE KWON: What is taken is correct, but it was taken out of
8 context while it is correct. Can you give me one or two examples so I
9 can understand what happened, some concrete -- in some concrete sense?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For example, I don't know the exact
11 item, but it deals with arming. Did you arm yourselves? I said, Yes.
12 But before that, I explained the whole history, when we established the
13 formation, when the Muslims started arming, what the videos were, and
14 then they asked, Did you arm yourselves? I said, Yes.
15 Another examples would be --
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
17 Yes, Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: Sorry. Sorry. Technical problem. It's okay now.
19 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Witness.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The second problem is that about
21 ten people from the OTP spoke to me from 2002 to today. And during that
22 time they would change, and everybody had -- well, I don't know. When
23 you speak to somebody from the OTP, they do not differentiate between
24 Mali Zvornik, Veliki Zvornik, while that is very important to us.
25 Another thing that is very important for the accused or for the
Page 17212
1 indictment is that our whole lives we were getting by because we knew
2 about that agreement with Holbrooke, and we thought that he would never
3 be charged, and we thought he could help us at the local level in the
4 community and it cannot do any harm. So perhaps I mentioned him in some
5 context which was not quite accurate in view of the fact that I have just
6 mentioned.
7 JUDGE KWON: If you could locate -- let us know the passage where
8 he's referred to Mr. Holbrooke.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: There's none in the statement, Your Honour.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. I think what the
11 witness is referring to is the fact that he's -- because what he
12 understood to be the situation, he said some things about Dr. Karadzic
13 that may not have been accurate, thinking that Dr. Karadzic would not be
14 brought before a court because of the Holbrooke agreement, not that he
15 had said anything about the Holbrooke agreement in his statement. That's
16 my understanding. You could confirm that with the witness, if you like.
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: And if I may say, Your Honour, the -- the mention
19 of Dr. Karadzic in paragraph 114 is exactly what the witness clarified to
20 me and found is the only thing which he wanted to change in the
21 statement.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
23 Can I hear you now, Mr. Robinson.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. If you look at the text of
25 Rule 92 ter (A)(3), it requires that the witness attest that the written
Page 17213
1 statement or transcript accurately reflects the witness's declaration and
2 what the witness would say if examined. And I think it's clear here that
3 the second part of it has not been met, that this is not what the witness
4 would say if examined, that he wants to add context to it. He says some
5 parts of it were inaccurate. It doesn't accurately -- while it may be
6 accurate in part, it does not accurately reflect what he would say if
7 examined, and I think the requirements of Rule 92 ter are not met in this
8 case. And I also think, just as a matter of fairness and as a matter of
9 the Trial Chamber's discretion, that it would be safer to hear the
10 witness's testimony viva voce so you can understand what his position is
11 more accurately. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to reply, Mr. Nicholls?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Just this, Your Honour: I think that the witness
14 has not said the statement is inaccurate. What the witness has said is
15 that it's not everything he would say on every topic, and that it's -- if
16 he spoke about these things viva voce, there would be more. That's
17 almost always true, but I think the requirement has been met, that he
18 would -- that what is in this statement is accurate. He would say these
19 things. He might say more but that the Rule has been met in that
20 respect.
21 JUDGE KWON: Just in case, I'm asking you, how much time would
22 you need if required to lead him in viva voce?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm -- I'm sorry to say I'm not sure what an
24 accurate estimate would be. It would be, I think, at least a day,
25 probably more, and there's no -- there's no mystery. If I lead him
Page 17214
1 viva voce, what I will do is -- is intend to do is go through the --
2 essentially, the entire statement and would go through the same order and
3 go through these points. So it would take quite a while.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber carefully reviewed the words of
7 Rule 92 ter, as well as what the witness said. Although the witness was
8 not able to give some concrete examples, the witness clearly said that,
9 "The statement does not reflect what I said." In light of this answer of
10 the witness, the Chamber is not satisfied that the requirements of
11 Rule 92 ter has been satisfied. So I order you to lead evidence live.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you.
13 Q. Sir, we're going to go through your testimony now. Please
14 remember that you've been reminded before to be careful about what you
15 say so that you don't, unintentionally yourself, compromise your
16 protective measures. Do you understand?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And we will be careful to avoid in public testimony points which
19 would identify you.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go into private session, please.
21 [Private session]
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20 [Open session]
21 JUDGE KWON: We are now in open session, Witness. Whenever you
22 are going to say anything that may reveal your identity, please let us
23 know that we go into private session in order to protect your identity.
24 Do you understand that, Mr. Witness?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no need. We all follow
Page 17221
1 that. We know all the witnesses who come. This is just because of the
2 name and the face, because of the work that I'm doing in a different
3 town, but people are just not interested any more in what happened before
4 and what's going on now.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
6 MR. NICHOLLS:
7 Q. All right, Witness. Earlier, we talked just a little bit
8 about -- well, strike that.
9 I want to ask you now a little bit about the background in
10 Zvornik in 1991 and your view of the situation building up to the -- to
11 the outbreak of the armed conflict. So can you tell us quickly what you
12 recall of the approximate population breakdown in Zvornik in 1991, early
13 1991, between different ethnic groups, Muslims and Serbs.
14 A. I know, because we took part in the census at the time, the
15 Muslim population accounted for 60 per cent of the population. The Serb
16 population accounted for about 40 per cent. There were about 1 or 2
17 per cent who declared themselves as Yugoslavs or Croats or some other
18 minority. That caused some concern among us, because we used to have
19 55 per cent of the population in Zvornik, we the Serbs, according to the
20 previous census. So we realised that people intentionally moved in, and
21 also there is the traditional birth rate in the Islamic world, as it
22 were.
23 Q. Now, very briefly, can you explain what the relationship was like
24 between Muslims and Serbs in Zvornik before and after the 1991 elections.
25 A. Well, while the strong fist of Communism was still there,
Page 17222
1 inter-ethnic conflicts were punished severely. So the situation was
2 good, under quotation marks. Quite simply, these were two parallel
3 world. If I tell you that in my village which is a purely Serb village
4 ethnically, no one ever married a Muslim. There was a river dividing us
5 from a Muslim village, and no one ever had even a meadow on the other
6 side. (redacted) and I
7 never even went there for a dance or something, and they never came to my
8 village either. So with Communist oppression, all of this was kept in
9 peace, apparently. However, after the multi-party system was introduced,
10 there was this explosion of inter-ethnic tensions that rose all the way
11 until 1992 when the trigger was the international recognition of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina and their separation from Yugoslavia.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, out of an abundance of caution,
15 we should probably have a redaction.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. And from your -- from your perspective as a member of the SDS
19 then, what was the goal or position of what the SDS wanted at that time
20 for Bosnia-Herzegovina before the outbreak of war?
21 A. Well, my personal motive for joining the SDS was to preserve
22 Yugoslavia within its former framework. That was one of the main points
23 of the SDS. Another thing, in view of the history in that part of the
24 country, it had to do with the survival of myself and my family in this
25 house where we were born and raised.
Page 17223
1 Q. Thank you. I want to move on now to December 1991. Did you
2 attend any large SDS meetings that month?
3 A. I don't remember exactly what date it was, but I think it was the
4 end of December. I attended a meeting at the Holiday Inn where there
5 were a lot of people, 500, 600, perhaps even more.
6 For the most part, it was all the representatives of Serb people
7 in the state organs, in the municipalities, members of parliament. All
8 of them were invited. Since the SDS had most of the members there, but
9 there were other people who represented the Serb people at municipal and
10 republican level.
11 Q. And do you recall who was there from the SDS leadership?
12 A. Well, as far as I can remember, all of them were there.
13 Q. Do you recall Radovan Karadzic being there?
14 A. Yes. I do recall that the president spoke there at that meeting,
15 and I think that Mr. Krajisnik spoke as well, and I think
16 Professor Ekmecic, and I cannot remember who else.
17 Q. All right. Excuse me. To the best of your recollection, tell me
18 what your recall Mr. Karadzic -- President Karadzic saying at that
19 meeting. In other words, what was his speech about?
20 A. Well, he informed us about the situation at that moment in
21 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the political situation, also what the position of
22 Bosnia was on an international plane and what the position of Serbia was.
23 And basically what was discussed was the political situation and the
24 attitude of the JNA towards this entire situation and the attitude of
25 Yugoslavia towards Bosnia-Herzegovina. That was the context, but for the
Page 17224
1 most part, it had to do with providing information about the political
2 situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was very difficult. I think that
3 the parliament was about to disintegrate, and so on.
4 Q. And what did Karadzic say about the situation regarding the JNA?
5 A. Well, I mean I cannot remember exactly. It was about 20 years
6 ago, but I think that it was that well-known situation that the Muslims
7 were boycotting the JNA, that quite a few of them were not responding to
8 call-up, and that the position of the Serbs was that we should promptly
9 respond to JNA call-up because the war on Croatia was well underway
10 already. So it was that variant. And the position of the JNA was at the
11 time -- and I think that a reference was even made then. I don't know if
12 it was Mr. Karadzic or somebody else, but the American embassy at the
13 time officially supported the preservation of Yugoslavia.
14 Q. Do you recall Karadzic discussing whether he'd been in contact
15 with President Milosevic about the situation?
16 A. I really do not remember whether he mentioned Mr. Milosevic then.
17 Well, there were journalists there and they were reporting about it, and
18 it can probably be seen from the newspaper reports at the time whether he
19 did mention that or not.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, may we go into private session for
21 one moment?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 [Private session]
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16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. Now, Witness, earlier you were asked on this topic of what
20 Mr. Karadzic had said at this meeting, and you explained what you've just
21 said about the American ambassador, and you also said:
22 "And he," Karadzic, "also had been to Belgrade and spoken to
23 President Milosevic. And then we also had the support of the Serbian
24 people to preserve the Yugoslavia, albeit truncated."
25 Does that help you to remember what Dr. Karadzic said in his
Page 17226
1 speech?
2 A. Well, no. It's been 20 years. I really cannot remember. I
3 probably mentioned that in that case that you referred to, no problem
4 with that, but, I mean, thinking of the consequences of this sentence, I
5 mean, free interpretation remembering some meeting that took place 20
6 years ago and who said what, that would not be a normal thing, especially
7 at that time I did not attach any importance to that meeting, and, I
8 mean, I didn't realise there was anything important going on.
9 Q. Excuse me, let me just clarify that. This is a meeting with
10 hundreds of people. You said who all the representatives were who were
11 there. You said that you joined the SDS because of your concern about
12 your people in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you said there was talk about
13 the JNA and support and what would happen. Let me ask you, are you --
14 did this have importance to you at that time? Did you attach any
15 importance to this meeting?
16 A. Well, believe me, it's the end of 1991. It was like the fastest
17 movie you could imagine. I could not even count what was going on and
18 what was more important than the other thing, but there were hundreds of
19 things happening at local level and -- I don't know.
20 Q. And just let me ask again though. Out of these hundreds of
21 things happening at very quick speed, was this meeting important?
22 A. I did not notice a difference between that and other meetings
23 except that this one was a more massive one, as it were.
24 Q. Okay. Were any documents distributed at this meeting?
25 A. No documents were distributed to the participants. I did not
Page 17227
1 receive a single document. But when I returned to Zvornik, I found out
2 from the president of the SDS that he had received some document that
3 later on we read together. It included an elaboration of some theses as
4 to how one should behave in crisis situations. That was Variant A for
5 municipalities where the majority population was Serb and Variant B for
6 municipalities where Serbs were a minority.
7 Later, as for the municipal variant, we looked at this paper and
8 we assessed that it was something that was not bad for implementation in
9 a community such as Zvornik was. And I think we corrected some things
10 with regards to Variant B. We got rid of some things that we could not
11 adopt but we did adopt some of it as a good idea.
12 Q. And how soon after this meeting was it you say when you returned
13 to Zvornik? You found out from this document from the president of the
14 SDS.
15 A. Well, a few days. Five or six days, not more than that.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I please have P005 on the screen.
17 Q. Thank you. Witness, now, looking at that document in your
18 language, tell us what that is, please, if you've seen that document
19 before.
20 A. Yes. That's the instructions that I got from the president of
21 the party.
22 Q. And when you say the president of the party, could you say that
23 person's name?
24 A. Mr. Grujic.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: And now could we go into private session, please.
Page 17228
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23 [Open session]
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll have a break for half an hour.
25 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
Page 17233
1 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
2 JUDGE KWON: Before we resume, Mr. Robinson and Mr. Tieger, the
3 Chamber has decided that it will take a week off in the week of 10th of
4 October.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you very much, Your Honour. If we could go
8 back into private session.
9 [Private session]
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Page 17237
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
3 MR. NICHOLLS:
4 Q. Now, Witness, can you please tell me -- take a look at this
5 document adopted on 15 March 1992, so before the outbreak of hostilities
6 is the date you've put on the armed conflict. The Assembly of the
7 Serbian municipality of Zvornik adopted this decision regarding the ban
8 on the sale of real properties. And if you look at item number I, I
9 won't read the whole portion out, but these types of real property cannot
10 be subject to trade except between ethnic Serbs within the municipal
11 territory. And there is a similar clause under number VII regarding
12 privately owned real estate between ethnic Serbs cannot be traded to
13 other ethnic groups.
14 Can you tell me about this decision. Why was this type of
15 decision issued regulating the sale of property on an ethnic basis and
16 prohibiting property from going outside of members of the Serb ethnicity?
17 A. Well, I remember this decision. Since Zvornik has some specific
18 features, a lot of Muslims lived in Serbia. Now, in the face of the
19 heightened tensions, there emerged a huge influx of Muslims from
20 Mali Zvornik and Sakaj [phoen] -- were swapping land with the Serbs. In
21 fact, that only deteriorated and exacerbated the ethnic composition of
22 Zvornik to the detriment of the Serbs. Now, given that the war in
23 Croatia was in progress and that the situation was such that for three
24 months Serbs were holding guard in their own villages, as did the
25 Muslims, the Serbs did not dare enter any Muslim village and vice versa.
Page 17238
1 So people were already divided on the ground. And under such
2 extraordinary circumstances, we thought that it would not be good to
3 engage in any swapping or sale of land given that the circumstances were
4 so exceptional.
5 Q. Now, just let me clarify. This decision is from 15 March 1992.
6 You're talking about the war being in process and for three months the
7 Serbs were holding guard. Was the war in process on 15 March 1992 when
8 this decision was issued?
9 A. No, no. I said clearly that on the 15th of March there was no
10 war, but I am telling you that before the war, the situation in Zvornik
11 municipality was such that both the Serbs and the Muslims were armed.
12 Three or four months before the war, the Serbian police could not enter
13 any Muslim village or vice versa because that was the division on the
14 ground, and that implied [as interpreted] guards for a few months before
15 the outbreak of hostilities, because that was the factual situation on
16 the ground. Everybody was armed.
17 Q. And do you recall, as you sit here today, whether this decision
18 we've just been looking at was pursuant or in relation to the plan B as
19 you're called it?
20 A. As far as I --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer from
22 the beginning. The interpreters couldn't understand him. Sorry.
23 JUDGE KWON: Sir, the interpreters were not able to hear your
24 answer. Could you repeat it kindly.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said that that was not in
Page 17239
1 compliance with plan B, because I think that there is no mention in
2 plan B of such provisions. This was our measure taken in Zvornik
3 municipality in order to exert pressure on the incumbent authorities
4 because we were disenfranchised, and we were put in the position of being
5 in opposition. That was the situation at the local level.
6 If you look at these plans A and B, they were never applied
7 according to the same pattern in every municipality. It was different in
8 each municipality.
9 MR. NICHOLLS:
10 Q. And let me ask you how you know, just so you can explain to us
11 the way in which the Variant A and B instructions were applied in each
12 municipality.
13 A. We communicated with Ugljevik, Bijeljina, Bratunac, Srebrenica,
14 neighbouring municipalities like Sekovici. All of them had their own
15 respective patterns.
16 Q. And, sorry, who is the "we communicated"? Who's the "we" in that
17 answer?
18 A. I am referring to the representatives of the Serbs, representing
19 them in the government organs, whether they were members of the SDS, of
20 the League of Communists, or people from the party of Ante Markovic. All
21 in all, those were the Serbs who held offices and who were elected at --
22 by the Serbs at the elections.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated]... Your Honours, I
24 would ask -- Your Honours, I'd ask to admit that -- or I tender that
25 document, rather.
Page 17240
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted.
2 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3151, Your Honours.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd like to bring up another document now quickly.
4 That's 14639, please. And I would ask if we can just quickly show the
5 witness the second page of this document.
6 Q. Now, you've seen this before, sir. Could you tell us what this
7 is, what this document is about.
8 A. This is another proof that Zvornik functioned as a state within a
9 state. You can see here that it was the municipality paying out
10 pensions, which is nowhere within it -- its remit. (redacted)
11 (redacted) This has to do with
12 the paying out of Serb pensioners who were receiving their remuneration
13 through the Investbanka in Zvornik.
14 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, could we go into private session for
15 one moment.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
17 [Private session]
18 (redacted)
19 (redacted)
20 (redacted)
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 17241
1 [Open session]
2 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
3 MR. NICHOLLS:
4 Q. Now, this document concerns the allocation of assets for pensions
5 from April and states:
6 "We ask you for the purposes of payment of pensions for April to
7 the pensioners of Serb ethnicity, who receive their pensions through
8 Investbanka ..." to enlarge it.
9 Why is it, going back to April, there were only persons of Serbs
10 ethnicities who are on this document to receive pensions?
11 A. You're not right. This is dated the 17th of June and this is a
12 backpay of these pensions that were due in April. On the 17th of June,
13 there were no Muslims in Zvornik anymore.
14 Q. It's a backpay for April. That's my point. And there were no
15 Muslims left in Zvornik by June.
16 A. Yes, but the payment is being made, according to the document, on
17 the 17th of June. So they were about two months overdue. And on the
18 17th of June, no pensions could have been paid to the Muslims because
19 none of them was physically present any longer in Zvornik.
20 Q. Okay. Now, you saw this document. I'll ask you: Did you see
21 any similar documents authorising the paying of pensions to people of
22 ethnicity other than Serb?
23 A. I have no information about that.
24 Q. Let me see -- let me ask you a question about your --
25 MR. NICHOLLS: If we go into private session, Your Honour.
Page 17242
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 [Private session]
3 (redacted)
4 (redacted)
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
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Page 17243
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Page 17245
1 (redacted)
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15 (redacted)
16 [Open session]
17 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
18 MR. NICHOLLS:
19 Q. We're in open session now, sir, so if you think we need to go
20 into private session for a part of your answer, just tell me.
21 You spoke earlier about the difficult ethnic tensions before the
22 war, about every side arming themselves and about standing guard. I want
23 to ask you now about your knowledge of the arming of -- of persons before
24 the actual outbreak of the conflict.
25 Now, first, which -- which groups were arming themselves,
Page 17246
1 Muslims, Serbs, both, neither? Can you tell us who was arming?
2 A. Both were arming, and there was a race as to who would do it more
3 successfully and better. They had their own methods, and that was
4 Croatia, the front from the Croatian front where there were many
5 volunteers on the side of Croatia. They were importing them from abroad,
6 then the MUP was expanding. We had such a high number of the reserve
7 forces, much more than the international standard was, and the Serbs used
8 the JNA more. They would enlist in the JNA. They would use the fact
9 that the Muslims were not enlisting, so they were filling up the reserve
10 forces. And also there were other weapons issued from the
11 Territorial Defence, but mostly the biggest source was the army, the JNA.
12 Q. And just tell me if you have any knowledge about the arming by
13 the Muslims in your area.
14 A. Well, as I said, mostly it was from the Croatian front and
15 through foreign purchases. I also mentioned the example that we received
16 information as well as a tape that sometime in 1991, in October, I saw
17 that they established the Patriotic League in the village of Godus and
18 what surprised us very much at the time was that we saw about 100 armed
19 persons dressed up to standards of NATO, wearing vests and with other
20 equipment. And there was panic, and to this very day in this place of
21 Horgos there is a monument saying that in October 1991 they formed this
22 Patriotic League. So, for us, that was the starting shot for us to start
23 pushing the army and people in Serbia who would be able to help us in
24 this part of the Republic of the Serbian Krajina, because there was a
25 lull then with the Croats. There were no combat actions, so we used some
Page 17247
1 private connections in Slavonia, Baranja, from Beli Manastir, and so on,
2 to bring in the bulk of the weapons. Besides the fact that the army
3 distributed weapons for the reserve forces through some personal
4 connections, we brought weapons from Slavonia, Baranja, from
5 Beli Manastir.
6 THE INTERPRETER: And the interpreter notes: We did not hear the
7 second location.
8 MR. NICHOLLS:
9 Q. If you could repeat the second location. I think it must have
10 been at the end of your answer. The interpreters didn't hear it.
11 A. I was saying from Baranja it was from Darda and Beli Manastir.
12 Q. Thank you. And let me just ask you one point on your -- on your
13 last answer. Is your -- is your information that the Muslims were arming
14 up to NATO standards?
15 A. No. No. I'm just saying that we saw this video from the
16 founding of the Patriotic League, and we could see the people there were
17 dressed like members of a professional army. They had helmets,
18 bullet-proof vests, automatic weapons, night vision equipment,
19 communications equipment, just like any other professional army and
20 special units at that.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: May we go into private session, Your Honour.
22 [Private session]
23 (redacted)
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
Page 17248
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 [Open session]
5 MR. NICHOLLS: I neglected to tender --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. 14639 will be admitted as
7 Exhibit P3152.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. If we could go back to private now and
9 move on.
10 [Private session]
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
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16 (redacted)
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Page 17249
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25 [Open session]
Page 17265
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls. It's time to take a break.
2 We will break for one hour and resume at 1.30.
3 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.29 p.m.
4 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, before I -- could we go into private
7 session, please.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 [Private session]
10 (redacted)
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Page 17266
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Page 17275
1 (redacted)
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8 (redacted)
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
11 MR. NICHOLLS:
12 Q. Now, sir, in open session could you please describe to us what
13 you remember of the way the attack on Zvornik took place from the
14 beginning of who ordered the attack on how it commenced.
15 A. The attack on Zvornik, as I said, was ordered by Arkan. His men,
16 some 20 soldiers, took part in this attack. There were also some 100
17 volunteers, and another 100 or 200 people from the Zvornik TO and MUP.
18 So I estimate that following Arkan's order, some 2- to 300 men launched
19 an attack on Zvornik. (redacted)
20 (redacted) And
21 the conflict lasted from 4.00 or 5.00 until 8.00, and that makes it about
22 three hours.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry, Your Honour, if we could --
24 JUDGE KWON: You can carry on.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
Page 17276
1 Q. And could you tell me the names that you remember of some of the
2 volunteer groups that took part.
3 A. I think -- I'm not sure, because it's been a long time since
4 then, but I think the Niski Pivarski were there, Zuco's group. There
5 were some who said that they were from Vukovar, White Eagles. It's very
6 difficult to know now who was there, you I think that there were about a
7 hundred of these volunteers in my estimate.
8 Q. Do you recall if there was a group of volunteers called Gogic's
9 group?
10 A. Well, yes. There was a group of volunteers from Loznica, yes.
11 About ten people at the most from Loznica.
12 Q. And did they take part in this action?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then what -- what was the outcome of this action? What
15 happened immediately after the attack ended, as you say?
16 A. The outcome of the action was that about half of Zvornik was
17 placed under the control of the Serbian side, all the way up to the
18 department store. Then for the next 20 days or so, there was a part that
19 was no man's land because it was controlled by firing up from Kula, and
20 once Kula was placed under Serbian command, then practically all of
21 Zvornik came under Serbian control.
22 Q. Now, I'd like you to tell me --
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, if I may request private session.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 [Private session]
Page 17277
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Page 17281
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21 (redacted)
22 [Open session]
23 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session, Your Honours.
24 MR. NICHOLLS:
25 Q. Okay, Witness. What is the -- you've already stated these are
Page 17282
1 what we refer to as the Variant A and B plan or instructions. What is
2 the heading on the top left?
3 A. It states:
4 "The Serbian Democratic Party of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
5 Main Board."
6 Q. [Microphone not activated]... what is the next -- what does the
7 next writing on the document say?
8 A. "Strictly confidential, copy number 100."
9 Q. Thank you. So did I understand you to say that this was an open
10 document? It was openly discussed?
11 A. That's how we treated it, and you can see that besides the
12 Crisis Staff members there are also members from other parties there, the
13 people from the SDA who were sitting in the offices next door knew about
14 it. We didn't understand this to be particularly confidential or
15 anything like that. Party post was delivered in a particular way. This
16 was given by somebody to Grujic at a meeting at the Holiday Inn.
17 Q. All right. Thank you. I'm going to move on. We can stay in
18 public session. After the takeover of Zvornik, the attack, whatever we
19 want to call it, how long did the Crisis Staff continue to function in
20 that form?
21 A. I'm not sure, but I think it was till the 20th of April, and then
22 after the 20th of April, sometime the temporary government was formed.
23 Q. And who, as best you recall, was the head of the temporary or
24 interim government?
25 A. Grujic was at the head of the provisional government, the
Page 17283
1 temporary government.
2 Q. And who were -- well, were any of the members who'd been on the
3 Crisis Staff members of the provisional government? Any others, I should
4 say.
5 A. Yes, some were part of the continuity, and they transferred from
6 the Crisis Staff to the interim government.
7 Q. Can you name the persons you remember who were part of that
8 continuity?
9 A. I think Grujic, Radic, Peric. I'm not sure about any others.
10 There is a list in the documents that was shown to me before, so perhaps
11 they are in the list.
12 Q. Okay. And that would be Stevo Radic and Rade Peric?
13 A. Yes, I did mention them.
14 Q. And were there any persons of Muslim ethnicity in the provisional
15 government?
16 A. I do remember Mr. Muhamed Jelkic. He was a cardiologist from
17 Zvornik.
18 Q. And what was his role there? Was he voluntarily a member? Can
19 you explain why he was a member?
20 A. I don't think he was too enthusiastic about being a member of the
21 interim government, but I think that he was one of the most respectable
22 Muslims in Zvornik because he was from a good family. He was a
23 cardiologist. He worked at the medical centre, and he enjoyed a good
24 reputation among the Muslims and the Serbs, and this government tried to
25 forge good links with the Muslim sides, and I think that he even
Page 17284
1 participated in efforts to free a Serb policeman who was captured. He
2 was a kind of link between the interim government and the Muslims.
3 Q. Now, who was the TO commander during the actual takeover of
4 Zvornik, during the combat?
5 A. I think that was Marko Pavlovic. At the beginning, there was
6 some two or three shifts that lasted for a day or two. Some other people
7 were mentioned, but I think that Marko Pavlovic was the TO commander from
8 the point of time when Zvornik was attacked onwards.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: If I could have 17245, please. And page 37 of the
10 B/C/S, please.
11 Q. Have you seen this document before?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And this is -- this is a decision of the temporary or interim
14 government, Serbian government of the Serbian municipality of Zvornik, on
15 10 April, appointing Marko Pavlovic, TO headquarters commander.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And whose name is at the bottom of the appointment?
18 A. President of the interim government Grujic.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd offer that, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: It will be admitted.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3155, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: Where do you have Mr. Grujic's name in English?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I don't actually see it on the English. It is on
24 the --
25 JUDGE KWON: In the next --
Page 17285
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes. It is a difficult format.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's on the next page, yes. You can carry on.
3 MR. NICHOLLS:
4 Q. Now, at about this time did some members, in your words, of the
5 Crisis Staff or provisional government quit and withdraw from that
6 organisation?
7 A. Well, I did not take part in anything at the time, so I don't
8 know what you're thinking of, so if you can remind me. I don't know
9 exactly what you are thinking of. I wasn't participating in the work of
10 the TO or the interim government at that time, or the Crisis Staff.
11 Q. Well, do you recall Jovo Mijatovic and Jovan Ivanovic withdrawing
12 from the Crisis Staff?
13 A. They resigned and did not take part in all of that anymore.
14 After being beaten by Arkan, they were very unhappy about that, and even
15 for a while they suspected that somebody set them up from the
16 Crisis Staff. So they withdrew. They were disappointed with what was
17 going on.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go into private session, please?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 [Private session]
21 (redacted)
22 (redacted)
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25 (redacted)
Page 17286
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14 (redacted)
15 [Open session]
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We are in open session, Mr. Nicholls.
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. Witness, you've testified, for example, that the Crisis Staff
19 financed the paramilitaries, that they were supported, they were given
20 weapons by the provisional government and Crisis Staff when they arrived.
21 How do you say -- is in that -- you say they have nothing to do with the
22 provisional government, but you've explained even the way some of them
23 were billeted and their accommodation paid for by the provisional
24 government. Can you just explain it?
25 A. Of course. That is why I asked to testify live. What I stated
Page 17288
1 is correct. The Crisis Staff was gathering volunteers, paying them.
2 They were on a payroll. But I also explained that at one point in time
3 these volunteers because the strongest armed force in Zvornik, and that
4 it culminated to such an extent that there was an official proposal made
5 that Zvornik should be named Zuca's town. Can you imagine that? It's as
6 if seven or eight persons came to visit you at your home, they get drunk
7 and they then start mistreating you and your children and everybody. You
8 ask for help. Help did arrive, a bit late though, by way of a special
9 unit from the MUP of Sarajevo reinforced by some other forces. They
10 arrested them, but until that happened, by the time this information
11 reached Pale, I said that there was no communication. Practically there
12 was no communication. And by the time a reaction arrived from up there,
13 ugly things had already happened. That's my answer to this question.
14 Otherwise, let me just say that everyone in Zvornik knows that these
15 paramilitaries, after all, the Muslims know this, too, they mistreated
16 the president of the Crisis Staff. They took him out to execute him. He
17 was a martyr, not a president of a Crisis Staff. Zuco, Captain Dragan
18 both detained him, anyone who wanted to arrest him. Quite simply, from
19 the time when Arkan came and until these paramilitaries were arrested,
20 they were the strongest unit in Zvornik, and no one dared oppose them in
21 any way, let alone not give them a salary or fuel or whatever, do
22 anything against their wishes, what they had asked for. They wanted to
23 attack Kalesija and they were using an engine that they wanted to
24 transform into a train for that attack, and they used millions for it.
25 Not to go into detail, but the culmination of this was that there was an
Page 17289
1 official proposal in the Municipal Assembly of Zvornik that Zvornik be
2 renamed into Zuca's town. Can you then imagine the environment that we
3 lived in?
4 Q. So these groups of volunteers or paramilitaries that you're
5 discussing, if I understood you correctly, they were invited by the
6 Crisis Staff who paid for their transportation; is that right?
7 A. We, the Serbs who were a minority in Zvornik, asked all
8 volunteers, I mean all of those who volunteered to come. We gave them
9 weapons. They joined units. We put them on the payroll of the TO and
10 that was the practice then. However, very soon they withdrew from the
11 front line. They set up check-points on the road. They started seizing
12 cars. They started checking people who were going in and out of town,
13 because they had their own propaganda, too. They were not naive about
14 any of this. They said, you know, The government is taking away your
15 money. They're selling Muslims for money. They were saying millions of
16 subversive things like that. This was some kind of negative marketing
17 regarding the authorities. For a while they even had a lot of support
18 amongst the population, you know, because when there's this kind of
19 disbelief, it is fertile ground for rumours and misinformation. They
20 used that skilfully. So along with the volunteers that came from
21 elsewhere, quite a few of the locals from the TO joined these
22 paramilitary units.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. Could I have 07136, please.
24 JUDGE KWON: While we are waiting for that document, sir, by
25 Captain Dragan, who allegedly detained the president of the Crisis Staff
Page 17290
1 together with Zuco, who did -- who did you refer to, Captain Dragan?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I think his name is
3 Dragan Vasiljkovic. He operated in Croatia, and he came to us as
4 "Captain Dragan."
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MR. NICHOLLS:
7 Q. If you just look at this document, sir. You've seen this before.
8 Invoice dated 30th of April. Does this document indicate the provisional
9 government paying for bringing volunteers from Belgrade to Zvornik, if we
10 look at page 2 especially?
11 A. Yes.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I would tender that, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be admitted.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3156, Your Honours.
15 MR. NICHOLLS:
16 Q. You talked about some of these groups joining the TO and their
17 members. Did any particular volunteer/paramilitary group join the
18 police?
19 A. As far as I know, all of those who came were deployed in the
20 Territorial Defence. But later on, I think it was in May, precisely in
21 an attempt to stop these well-organised paramilitary groups, one group
22 was admitted into the police. Since they were from Loznica, we knew
23 them. They were neighbours from across the Drina. They joined the
24 police in order reinforce it and precisely to put a stop to these
25 organised groups.
Page 17291
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go into private session for one moment?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But at the time I was not in the
3 police or the Crisis Staff. This is what I know as a citizen.
4 [Private session]
5 (redacted)
6 (redacted)
7 (redacted)
8 (redacted)
9 (redacted)
10 (redacted)
11 (redacted)
12 (redacted)
13 (redacted)
14 (redacted)
15 (redacted)
16 (redacted)
17 (redacted)
18 (redacted)
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session, Your Honours.
21 MR. NICHOLLS:
22 Q. All right. I'm going to go through some of these documents --
23 some documents quickly, Witness, which relate to what you've just told us
24 about the paramilitaries being paid, being put on the payroll of the
25 provisional government, and the first one is 12159.
Page 17292
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could this be made more
2 specific? I have an objection. The government did not pay
3 paramilitaries. The government paid volunteers in accordance with the
4 law. It is only later that the volunteers became paramilitaries.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: I believe that's matter for cross.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree. You can clarify with the witness.
7 And it is the accused not the witness who intervened just before.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, I can't see the English of 12159.
9 JUDGE KWON: I think we have it.
10 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, I'll have to, I'm sorry, come back to that
11 one. Could I have 14640, please.
12 Q. Now, sir --
13 MR. NICHOLLS: And can we go to the second page for the witness
14 in Serbian. And continue on to page 6 of the Serbian.
15 Q. Now, Witness, I'm showing you page 6 of a document entitled,
16 "Payroll of unemployed reservists who were at the military exercise," and
17 this is for the month of May, 1992, 1st of May, going on.
18 First of all, do you see who signs this payroll?
19 A. On behalf of the TO staff, but then I'm not sure whose signature
20 it is.
21 Q. Does it say TO commander?
22 A. It looks like Marko Pavlovic's signature, but I'm not sure.
23 Q. And he was -- and he was TO commander in May 1992; correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. And if we can scroll over to the left. Number 41, who is that
Page 17293
1 gentleman listed as number 41 who is getting paid by Marko -- or who
2 Marko Pavlovic is signing off for this man's pay in May?
3 A. Vuckovic, Vojin Zuca.
4 Q. [Microphone not activated]... is that the same Zuca you were
5 talking about earlier? Is that the same Zuca you were speaking about
6 earlier?
7 A. Yes, the same one we were speaking about. I have already said
8 that every volunteer who came was sent either to a TO unit or to the MUP,
9 and they would pay such a person as a member of the TO. Until they
10 became the strongest ones. Once they became the strongest ones, then
11 they took whatever they wanted themselves.
12 Q. All right. And who would send them to the TO and incorporate
13 them into the TO as you've just talked about?
14 A. When they would come, they would report to the Crisis Staff, to
15 the provisional government, and then they would go directly to the TO,
16 and then they would be deployed in accordance with their capabilities
17 depending on what kind of military service they did, et cetera.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour, and would I tender that
19 document.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3157, Your Honours.
22 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, could I now have 13326, please.
23 Q. Now, Witness, this document is titled:
24 "List of payments to be made to TO members of the Serbian
25 municipality of Zvornik for the month of May."
Page 17294
1 You've seen this document before. Just very quickly, is this
2 another payroll for volunteers?
3 A. Mr. Prosecutor, yes, but this is already annoying me, that I am
4 supposed to comment on a document from May that you are showing me now?
5 Bring someone from the government. I can just read it out as an
6 announcer or whatever. This doesn't mean a thing to me.
7 Q. Well, the reason is you already spoke about this document in your
8 statement and said that you recognised it as a unit of the Serbian
9 Radical Party led by Janko Lakic. That is why we're showing it to you at
10 this point. Could I have 23235, please.
11 A. I have no comment. If you want me to read this out, I will read
12 it out then. It is a list. The TO is paying a unit for the month of
13 May, and I have no comment in relation to that.
14 Q. Thank you. And this is part of --
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, if I can explain. 23 -- 23235 is
16 the remainder of the document shown to the witness that was in paragraph
17 78 of his statement that he commented on. Unfortunately, just the first
18 two pages of this ERN range were originally included. So this is just --
19 although the statement is now not being admitted 92 ter, this -- these
20 following pages are part of the same range the witness was shown for
21 23235 for -- sorry, P00159. And I've spoken with my friend who has no
22 objection to these being shown to the witness.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
24 MR. NICHOLLS:
25 Q. Now, Witness, I'm not trying to annoy you, but these are the
Page 17295
1 remainder of the pages. Again, you don't need to comment more than this
2 is another payroll certificate for volunteers; is that right?
3 A. I can just read it out like an announcer: "Certificate by which
4 it is being confirmed that Boris Bosner received the following amounts as
5 compensation for the payments to the Serbian municipality Zvornik --"
6 Q. I'm not asking you to read it aloud. I'm just asking you if you
7 know what it is.
8 A. This is a certificate, and then I can read out what it says
9 there. I don't see in which other way I can comment upon this.
10 Q. Who is the first person named on this list?
11 A. Number one says Janko Lukic. That is what is written here.
12 Q. And we can see that it's -- we can see that there's a sort of
13 handwritten correction to "Janko Lakic." Who was Janko Lakic? Did you
14 know who Janko Lakic was in May 1992?
15 A. If it has to do with the Janko Lakic I know, this was a man who
16 was born in the territory of the municipality of Zvornik. In 1991, he
17 lived in Mali Zvornik. I don't know whether he was a volunteer or
18 whether it was his duty to respond to a call up from this unit. Now, I
19 don't know. The man was born in the territory of the municipality of
20 Zvornik but I know that he lived in Mali Zvornik in Serbia as I did and
21 many others. Now, whether he was a volunteer or he responded to a
22 call-up from the TO, I don't know.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I would submit that.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
25 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We would object because the
Page 17296
1 witness hasn't really confirmed the contents of the document.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Well --
3 JUDGE KWON: But his observation was that it was consistent with
4 what he saw at the time before.
5 MR. ROBINSON: That may be Mr. President, but with respect -- I
6 don't want to say anything in open session that might reveal his
7 identity, but the time-period makes a difference, in our view.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] But if I may add something.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Yes, Mr. Witness.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, Judge, perhaps it seems
11 that I have now started paying attention to details, because this is my
12 fifth trial. Look at this document. There is no number here. There is
13 no stamp. No one signed that they received this money. Commenting upon
14 a document like this and saying anything about any of these people here,
15 I think that is a thankless thing. As for what the Prosecutor asked me
16 to do, I can read all of this out like an announcer, but I really have no
17 knowledge of any of this. There is no stamp. There is no number.
18 JUDGE KWON: That is sufficient, Mr. Witness.
19 Yes, Mr. Nicholls, would you like to reply?
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Just, Your Honours, that the -- yes. Perhaps -- I
21 don't think we need to go into private session. The witness said that he
22 knew the first person named on the list, knew that he was from Serbia and
23 was serving in a unit in the TO. So he does know about this document.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, may I intervene? Unless
25 there is a mistake in the translation, the witness did not say that he
Page 17297
1 was from Serbia. The first person on the list is from Zvornik. He was
2 born in Veliki Zvornik, but he lived in Mali Zvornik. He is not from
3 Serbia. He just lived in Serbia, and that is the basis upon which he
4 could have been a military conscript.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that's correct. Thank you.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: Given the answer of the witness that he has no
8 knowledge of this document, the Chamber is of the view that the
9 Prosecution will have another opportunity to tender this. It's not
10 appropriate to admit this document through this witness. We'll not admit
11 this.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: I see the time, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes. Thank you. For planning purpose, how much
14 would you need for your remainder of your examination-in-chief tomorrow,
15 Mr. Nicholls?
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I would -- I would try to finish in less than two
17 hours.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We will resume tomorrow at 9.00, and it
19 will be a normal sitting, not being an extended one.
20 The hearing is now adjourned.
21 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.01 p.m.,
22 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 17th day
23 of August, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.
24
25