1 Monday, 22 August 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Good afternoon, everyone. Is there anything
6 to be raised before we hear evidence?
7 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Good afternoon. This relates
9 to the next witness and the protective measures which are to be granted
10 to the witness, and I would like to make my remarks in public session and
11 I'll keep them general because it's a matter of a principle as opposed to
12 something that will reveal the identity of the witness.
13 So, first of all, we want to again reiterate that we object to
14 closed-session testimony in this trial unless it's absolutely necessary.
15 And we note that in this case the witness had testified in the first
16 trial here at the Tribunal without closed session, and so we think that
17 he ought to be, at the minimum, asked whether or not his subsequent
18 requesting of a closed session was generic to the particular case that he
19 was testifying in and whether he needs to have the testimony in this case
20 in closed session where there's an absolute record of no problem that any
21 of our witnesses who've testified in this case have had. We think the
22 Chamber ought to make as many efforts as possible to have this testimony
23 heard in public --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Mr. Robinson. You knew from the
25 beginning that this witness is given the protection of closed session a
1 while ago.
2 MR. ROBINSON: Yes.
3 JUDGE KWON: Is this something we should spend time, precious
4 time, court time? Could it not have been -- have been raised in writing
5 in advance?
6 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. Every time we've raised something like this
7 in writing, however, you've declined to inquire as to the witness, so we
8 decided that it's better to just ask you before the witness comes in
9 rather than starting a motion with an answer and a written decision,
10 because you've, in the past and as recently as last week, declined to
11 inquire of the witnesses whether or not the protective measures that they
12 have in place should be continued. And I'm referring to your decision on
13 protective measures for KDZ-601 and 605, which I believe was issued on
14 the 18th of August. So we didn't believe that it would be a good idea to
15 raise the same issue in writing, but nevertheless, I apologise for taking
16 your time, but I think it's an important principle that we would like to
17 maintain each time a witness comes here.
18 I also wanted to point out to the Chamber that if you Google the
19 name of this witness, you'll find newspaper articles about the very same
20 thing that he's going to testify about, and so to us these protective
21 measures seem really unnecessary.
22 Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Elliott, would you like to respond?
24 MS. ELLIOTT: Yes, Your Honour. As the Court has noted, the
25 details surrounding this witness's protective measures were contained in
1 the 4th of July notification. And unless the Court wants me to, I won't
2 bother revisiting the circumstances surrounding these protective
3 measures, but this Trial Chamber has repeatedly held and most notably on
4 the 14th of September, 2010, decision, that it doesn't need to hear
5 personally from a witness when considering a request to modify or rescind
6 existing protective measures where certain circumstances exist, and they
7 existed here. So I submit it's unnecessary to hear from this witness
8 regarding his protective measure status.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber sees no reason to -- to vary the
12 protective measures allowed to the witness by the previous Chambers.
13 Yes, Ms. Elliott. Shall we go into private session to bring in
14 the witness?
15 MS. ELLIOTT: Just one matter, Your Honour. It relates to
16 Exhibit D1585. And a revised translation was ordered for this exhibit on
17 the 19th of July, 2011, and that's been received and has now been
18 uploaded in e-court.
19 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Unless there's anything, we'll go into
20 private session -- I'm sorry, closed session.
21 [Closed session]
11 Pages 17581-17633 redacted. Closed session.
17 [Open session]
18 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, we're now in open session.
19 [The witness entered court]
20 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, sir. If you could take the solemn
21 declaration, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: MUSAN TALOVIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
2 Ms. Edgerton, before you begin, I wanted to tell you that we'll
3 have another break, a last break for the day at 10 to 6.00 for 20
5 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
8 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
9 Q. Mr. Witness, can you hear me in a language you understand?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Then could you give us your full name.
12 A. Musan Talovic.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Talovic, if you could look at me. Thank
14 you. Mr. Talovic, do you remember 11 years ago in June of 2000 and then
15 again in 2002 giving statements to investigators from the Office of the
16 Prosecutor for this Tribunal?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. And those statements were about what happened to you in Glogova
19 in May of 1992; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And then do you remember in 2004 giving a statement to the
22 cantonal prosecutor's office in Tuzla about the same thing?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Now, in July of this year, 2011, in Sarajevo, do you remember
25 signing another statement putting all those earlier statements together
1 into one document?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And did you look at that statement from 2011 before you came to
4 testify here today?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And you noticed a problem with the handwritten date on the first
7 page, didn't you? It says 2001, doesn't it?
8 A. Yes. I should have added another 1 there, yes. I did it
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
11 be asked to speak into the microphone. Thank you.
12 MS. EDGERTON:
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Talovic, when you answer my questions and
14 Dr. Karadzic's later on, you are going to have to lean forward a little
15 bit more than you are and speak into the microphones with the red lights
16 on, in front of you, okay? Great. Thank you.
17 Now, Mr. Talovic, other than that little correction, are you
18 satisfied that the statement you signed in July of 2011 is accurate as
19 far as you can remember?
20 A. Yes, it is accurate.
21 Q. Now, if you were asked the same questions that you were asked in
22 2000, 2002, 2004, and July of this year, would you give the same answers?
23 A. The same, all of it.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Well, then, Your Honours, could I offer the -- or
25 tender the amalgamated statement of Mr. Talovic, 65 ter 90261, as the
1 next Prosecution exhibit, please.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3188, Your Honours.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. I'll now read a summary of that
5 written evidence.
6 Up until 9 May 1992, Musan Talovic had lived his whole life in
7 the village of Glogova in the municipality of Bratunac. In April 1992,
8 tensions in the area rose. The witness recalls the police was divided
9 into Serb and Muslim sections.
10 And April 1st, Serb police went through the area, calling for
11 people to surrender their weapons at the Bratunac municipality building.
12 On April 3rd, villagers from nearby Hranca fled to Glogova
13 reporting that local Chetniks were burning houses and killing people.
14 Early in the morning of 9 May, Mr. Talovic woke to find haystacks
15 burning around the village and soldiers coming toward them. Muslim men
16 from the area gathered at his house and tried to hide near a creek close
17 by. They were found by armed Serbs in uniform, one of whom the witness
18 recognised. Their captors directed the prisoners at gunpoint to the
19 supermarket in the village centre. The witness saw numbers of Serb
20 soldiers gathered nearby. Eventually Najdan Mladjenovic arrived. He
21 directed three of the Muslim prisoners into his car. The witness then
22 heard Mladjenovic issue orders to get on with the job and kill the rest.
23 Four of the soldiers came forward armed with automatic weapons. They
24 took the remaining 20 men, including the witness, to the riverbank where
25 they were ordered to line up and face the river. The soldiers opened
1 fire on the group. The witness hit the water and lost consciousness. He
2 woke hours later 10 metres downstream under a tree and two dead bodies.
3 He recognised the bodies. They were his neighbours. The witness found
4 only one survivor to the shooting who had been wounded trying to escape.
5 The rest of the prisoners were killed. In the village, Mr. Talovic saw
6 houses burning and found the bodies of more neighbours who had also been
7 killed that day. Altogether, there was a total of 68 victims of the Serb
9 That night the witness and other survives of the attack decided
10 to leave the village of Glogova. One group made their way to
11 Konjevic Polje, another to Srebrenica.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Talovic, I just have a few clarifying questions about
13 the written evidence that I've just read a summary of. First of all, in
14 that written evidence in paragraph 8, you mention that Miroslav Deronjic
15 was the main person on the Serbian Crisis Staff. How did you know that?
16 A. Because Selim Delic and Nesib Besovic [phoen] went to negotiate
17 in Bratunac and they returned and told us that Miomir Nikolic and
18 Miroslav Deronjic were the main people on that Crisis Staff of the SDS of
19 the Serb Republic in Bratunac.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, Mr. Talovic, on the 9th of May, did you see any
21 military vehicles in Glogova?
22 A. I saw a APC and a tank in the centre of Glogova when we were
23 brought there.
24 Q. Were there any personnel manning those pieces of military
1 A. Three or four men were on the APC. They were armed with a PAM
2 and a machine-gun and a tank - you know what that is - and there were
3 other soldiers accompanying them.
4 Q. How were they dressed?
5 A. Military uniforms, olive-green/grey.
6 Q. Could you tell us what you mean when you describe a PAM?
7 A. Well, that's what is mounted on an APC, and it turns around, and
8 I think it has these big bullets, and they kept twirling it around and
9 scaring us.
10 Q. Did you see any markings of any kind on the transporter or the
12 A. JNA.
13 Q. Thank you. Now to move on, in paragraph 31 of your statement,
14 you describe how Mustafa Golic, Sejid Ibisevic, and Almaz Talovic were
15 taken away in Najdan Mladjenovic's car, but later on, in paragraphs 39
16 and 40, you describe how you met with Golic again and what he told you.
17 So I'd like to know after they were taken away did you ever see Ibisevic
18 and Talovic again?
19 A. Talovic is my cousin and Sejid is a neighbour. They were killed
20 that same night. And Mustafa Golic is alive to this day. He survived.
21 He managed to run away. How he managed to do that, that is what he
22 knows. From the school of Vuk Karadzic, that is.
23 Q. How do you know that Sejid Ibisevic and Almaz Talovic were killed
24 the same night?
25 A. Well, because these neighbours when we met up later on, they said
1 they were buried in Voljevica. The graves are there, and they know to
2 this day who found them and who buried them. And this is my very own
3 cousin. I asked about him.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, to move on, in paragraph 35 of your statement,
5 you list a number of names, including yourself, of men who you say were
6 lined up with you at the edge of the river. Now, apart from yourself and
7 the three men who you said were taken away by car whose names also appear
8 in that list and Seco Delic, who you refer to later in your statement, to
9 your knowledge did any of these men in that list at paragraph 35 survive
10 this shooting?
11 A. None of them survived excepted myself and Seco Delic, who was
12 later killed by a shell.
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
15 MS. EDGERTON:
16 Q. Could you just repeat the end of your sentence that you've just
17 given, the answer where you said Seco Delic was killed by a shell. The
18 interpreter didn't hear you.
19 A. It was later, five or six or seven months later. Seco was just
20 wounded. He survived.
21 Q. Among the victims, among the group that was with you and shot on
22 the side of the riverbank, were there any children?
23 A. Hajrem [phoen] Ibisevic was 11 and Mujo Ibisevic was 13. The
24 rest were 18, 20, young men.
25 Q. Now, to your knowledge, up until this time, till the 9th of May,
1 had any of these victims been involved in any kind of military activity
3 A. None of them ever. They never participated in any such thing or
4 did they have any need to.
5 Q. Now, later on in your statement you give another list of names at
6 paragraph 38 where you describe how after the shooting you saw the bodies
7 of killed persons from your village which had been piled in two
8 locations. There are 24 people listed there.
9 Now, can you just clarify because it's not perfectly clear in
10 your statement, are those 24 people the names of some of the villagers
11 you saw who had been killed and whose bodies had been piled up?
12 A. All of them are neighbours, all of these men there.
13 Q. Were they all men, those 24 who you saw?
14 A. All of them except Banovka and Adem.
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Could you just repeat your sentence. You said "All of them
19 except Banovka and Adem," what?
20 A. Junuzovic.
21 Q. And who was Adem Junuzovic?
22 A. Banovka's husband.
23 Q. And can I just -- I'll go back to line 11 at page 63 and correct
24 myself. You saw actually far more than 24 bodies, didn't you?
25 A. Correct.
1 Q. Now, just another question about these lists at paragraph 35 and
2 paragraph 38. The name Selmo Omerovic -- pardon me the name
3 Selmo Omerovic appears on both lists. How could that be?
4 A. Selmo Omerovic, father's name Hakija; Selmo Omerovic, father's
5 name Adem. These are two different men, that's true.
6 Q. Thank you. Now on this list in paragraph 38, I saw the name
7 Uzeir Talovic. Is he any relation to you?
8 A. That's my father's side of the family, children of my uncle.
9 Q. And one last question: How did this experience, even though it's
10 many years after the fact -- how did this experience of being shot down
11 and then surviving affect you?
12 A. My neighbours and my family know better than anyone else. I
13 wouldn't wish it on anyone else. It was very difficult.
14 MS. EDGERTON: I don't have any other questions, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton. I take it there's no
16 associate exhibit for this witness.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Mr. Talovic, you will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic on -- by
20 way of his cross-examination.
21 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
24 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Talovic.
25 A. Good afternoon.
1 Q. You were the president of Glogova local commune. When was that?
2 A. I was the president of the chapter in 1998 -- sorry, 1988, 1989,
3 1990, and 1991, and my tenure in office somehow came to an end at that
5 Q. So were you the president of the local commune in 1991?
6 A. I was.
7 Q. Please, both of us have to wait for the interpretation to finish,
8 otherwise we won't be heard by the interpreters.
9 In your 2000 statement, which is 1D4078, on page 2 you say that
10 in early 1992, tensions rose between ethnic groups, and you added that
11 you remember when Bosnia separated from Yugoslavia, the life changed; is
12 that correct?
13 A. No, it's not.
14 Q. Well, I'm going to read it in English:
15 [In English] "In early 1992, we could feel changes and tensions
16 between the ethnic groups. I remember that when Bosnia separated from
17 Yugoslavia, life changed."
18 [No interpretation]
19 A. That's not what I said.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We didn't hear the translation of
21 what you said after citing the passage in his written statement.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's why I asked the witness to
23 wait for the translation.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. If you look at the transcript, when it stops you will know when
1 the translation is over.
2 JUDGE KWON: If you switch from English to B/C/S, you should wait
3 yourself for some time.
4 Yes. Could you repeat your question, the last part of your
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. My question was: Are you establishing a connection between the
9 tensions and the separation of Bosnia from Yugoslavia? Do you think that
10 there is a link between the ethnic tensions and the secession? Would you
11 believe that the situation would have been different, that there were
12 no -- would have been no tensions had there been no separation?
13 A. I was not involved in separation at all, so I don't know.
14 Q. But you did say this, didn't you?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Now could you answer the question.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't separate anything, neither
17 Yugoslavia nor Bosnia.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Witness, I am not attacking you in any way whatsoever. You
20 said that tensions occurred in early 1992. I'm asking you whether the
21 reason for that was the secession or something else.
22 A. You know that better than I do.
23 Q. You say that in April the army came to Bratunac and tried to
24 seize the draft records from the municipal building, from the draft
25 office. As a result, people gathered in front of the municipal building,
1 you were there, and the army was prevented from taking these records; is
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes, it is.
4 Q. Did the army try to do something illegal, or was it their legal
5 duty and obligation to take hold of draft records?
6 A. I don't know about that.
7 Q. But this did not take place in April. That was on the 30th of
8 August, 1991; correct?
9 A. I don't know.
10 Q. Well, I'm going to tell you how it all happened. A military unit
11 arrives on the 31st of August, 1991, in order to take over the records in
12 order to be able to call up the conscripts. The Muslim crowd gets
13 together in order to try and prevent them from doing so, but the police
14 prevented any major riots. Do you agree?
15 A. No, I don't.
16 Q. How was it then?
17 A. Well, they wanted to take all these record cards, although the
18 majority -- the minority of officers were Muslims. They could have used
19 those cards for later purposes of killing them.
20 Q. Are you saying and alleging then that on the 30th of August, the
21 JNA wanted to get hold of draft records in order to kill the prominent
22 Muslims? Is that what you're claiming?
23 A. I'm not claiming anything of the sort. I experienced that.
24 Q. On that same occasion, a large group of Muslims gathered around
25 the municipal building and prevented the army from doing that, whereas a
1 group of extremists were breaking things around the town and shooting at
2 the police station; is that correct?
3 A. I don't know if that's correct.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Talovic, could I remind you again that it's
5 necessary for the benefit of the Chamber and others who follow the
6 interpretation for you to put a pause before you start answering the
7 question, please.
8 And, Mr. Karadzic, what occasion are we talking about now? Is
9 it -- we are talking about April or August?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This event happened on the 30th of
11 August, two or three days after Mr. Izetbegovic withdrew his support of a
12 historic agreement.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, in his amalgamated statement, para 12
14 he's specifically referring to early 1992, and he said on April 1992.
15 Then you have to explore with the witness first whether it's August or
16 April, and then you should proceed. You should not take it for granted
17 that it should have taken place in August.
18 Ms. Edgerton.
19 MS. EDGERTON: I was about to make the point that August is only
20 on the basis of evidence Dr. Karadzic has just given and nothing else.
21 That wasn't what the witness had said.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
23 Please carry on, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I know when this happened exactly,
25 and we are going to present very strong documents in support of that, but
1 I'm eager to hear what the witness has to say, and I'm putting to him
2 proposition made by the Defence.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Witness, in September 1991, was the flag of the SDS put on
5 fire in Bratunac? Do you recall that?
6 A. No, not at all.
7 Q. All right. In that same month of September, the Serbs in Kravica
8 were threatened and told that their houses would be set alight. Do you
9 recall that?
10 A. No, I don't.
11 Q. Thank you. In the autumn of 1991, armed Muslims erected
12 roadblocks in your village of Glogova as well as in Sandici. Do you
13 remember those roadblocks?
14 A. Yes, I do remember roadblocks put up by the Serbs.
15 Q. You don't remember Muslim roadblocks?
16 A. No. Those were definitely Serb roadblocks erected at the exit
17 point from Kravica towards Sandici and on the other exit towards Repovac.
18 Q. Can we please have 65 ter 30180 in e-court. While we're waiting,
19 do you remember that by the end of August there was debate and discussion
20 about a historic Serbian Muslim agreement that envisaged Bosnia remaining
21 in Yugoslavia and the Serbs renouncing the idea of autonomous regions,
22 et cetera?
23 A. I don't recall any of that. I was more concerned how to get
24 firewood and things like that.
25 Q. Thank you. Look at this document. This is a discussion between
1 myself and the then member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina,
2 Professor Nikola Koljevic. This is September 1991, three or four days
3 after Izetbegovic's withdrawal from the agreement. But if you don't know
4 anything about that, we're not going to address this issue. Can we have
5 the next page, please. I'm going to read this in Serbia. Koljevic and I
6 are talking, and the subject is the barricades, and Koljevic asks me:
7 "Tell me, what happened in Han Pijesak? Are those people alive?
8 "Karadzic: They are, they are. One was wounded in the hand, one
9 in the leg. There are wounded near Bratunac. There are some barricades.
10 "Koljevic: Mm-hmm near Bratunac.
11 "Karadzic: Yes, and then ours put up barricades at Han Pijesak
12 and made a huge queue.
13 "Koljevic: Yes.
14 "Karadzic: And then I could go up there, but I found -- I tried
15 to find a solution. I found a solution and they made a leaflet and said
16 that this barricade was a warning to the authorities of BH because of the
17 lawlessness that was being tolerated. This should be given to every
18 driver who passed by the barricade as a condition for going through. So
19 it was treated as a warning and not as a bandit-like thing or something,
20 you know.
21 "Koljevic: Yes, yes, yes.
22 "Karadzic: Today, we will clear things with them. I think we
23 have to tell Izetbegovic today that the Muslims already hit the Serbs at
24 several places."
25 And you believe that there were no Muslim erected barricades,
1 whereas this conversation clearly indicates that the Muslims opened fire
2 and that the Serbs responded by erecting barricades in Han Pijesak.
3 A. This is all news to me.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be marked for
6 identification as is the standard practice?
7 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton.
8 MS. EDGERTON: I'm not sure on what basis at all this can be
9 marked for identification. Is Dr. Karadzic putting it forward on the
10 basis that it's authentic, because the witness didn't confirm one single
11 thing about any aspect of this conversation.
12 JUDGE KWON: Whether it may be contextually relevant as to his
13 reference to barricade.
14 MS. EDGERTON: I don't think there's enough there, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: Would you like to respond, Mr. Karadzic, or
16 Mr. Robinson?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, gladly. I would like this to
18 be a factual basis, but maybe Mr. Robinson has some procedural matters.
19 As far as the facts are concerned, the tensions did not happen in
20 April 1992, but, rather, the Muslim majority was terrorising Serbs as of
21 September 1991. And this conversation demonstrates that we were intent
22 on telling Izetbegovic that this lawlessness against Serbs must stop.
23 That was the basis for my proposal to have this marked for identification
24 simply because this is the way I treat intercepts as such, but if
25 Mr. Robinson feels that he could add something to this, let's hear him.
1 MS. EDGERTON: If -- if I may. Dr. Karadzic has made the context
2 abundantly clear now, so I would withdraw any concern I might have had.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll mark it for identification.
5 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1642, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KWON: MFI.
7 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 3189, two days
9 later. 30189.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. So this is the second half that you are aware of. This is a
12 conversation between Momcilo Krajisnik and the man called Trifko, who is
13 on duty at the party headquarters. He's asking whether Mr. Krajisnik as
14 the president of the Assembly was aware of the problems in Bratunac.
15 Krajisnik says:
16 "Tell me, what it is?"
17 And Trifko says:
18 "Well, it's war, brother. Two Muslims have already been killed.
19 Everybody is on the run" --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please indicate where he's
21 reading from.
22 JUDGE KWON: Where are you reading from?
23 THE ACCUSED: Fourth stance from the beginning.
24 JUDGE KWON: Could you start again.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. "War, my brother. Two Muslims already got killed. Well,
2 everybody is up in arms. Two got killed, two are wounded. Barricades
3 were put up by the village of Kravica. These are on the move. It is
4 this conflict that is happening in B probably." He means Bratunac.
5 And then Krajisnik is then asking him: "How was it? Do you
7 And then he then explains. Please look at it. He says that one
8 of the Muslims was questioned and then set free.
9 So there was an attempt on the life of Radojlub Djukanovic, the
10 President of the Executive board, a Serb. Do you remember that?
11 A. No, I don't.
12 Q. The assassin was arrested and immediately released, and Trifko is
13 confirming that by saying, yes, yes. You don't remember any attempted
15 A. This is news.
16 Q. All right. Then the group of Muslims set out towards Kravica and
17 then Kravica put up barricades; correct?
18 A. Not correct.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Can it be admitted on
20 the same basis?
21 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you, Ms. Edgerton, again.
22 MS. EDGERTON: On this one, no, Your Honour. We -- there --
23 there is no context. While I understand the principle that this could
24 have been tendered as an impeachment document, Dr. Karadzic hasn't, in
25 fact, done that at all. He's just read this to the witness and asked the
1 witness confirm anything about it that the witness has absolutely no
2 inkling about. So, no, not this time, I would think.
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, we find no basis to admit this
4 document or even for the purpose of marking for identification through
5 this witness.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree, Excellency, because I'm
7 not the interlocutor, so I can agree with you on that. Can we have a
8 look at 65 ter 30186.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. This is a conversation on the 4th of September between
11 Zvonko Bajgic from Vlasenica and myself. So it is the fifth or sixth
12 line from above. Bajgic is saying: "I don't know whether you've been on
13 top of things since Friday." Karadzic says: "I know that they shot at
14 the president of the Executive Council. That fellow was arrested and
15 then released." And he says: "Yes." And I say: "Then Muslims were
16 headed to Kravica village. Was their intention to attack or what?"
17 Can we have the next page, please.
18 Bajgic says: "After Friday, the SUP deployed, police in those
19 villages, on those hot spots. So only Serbs were deployed in Kravica."
20 Karadzic says: "Yes." Bajgic says: "Because that is what they
21 demanded. The patrols consisting of both Serbs and Muslims were in
22 Konjevic Polje and in that place over there in Lolici."
23 And a bit further down it says: "After the firing at the
24 president of the Executive Council," and Karadzic says: "All right."
25 That was a pretext for that. They informed you about that, and Karadzic
1 says: "Two men were wounded. All right." And Bajgic says: "Then,
2 after that wounding, this assassination was -- there was an assassination
3 attempt." And Karadzic says: "And were Serbs wounded?" And Bajgic
4 says: "And listen, to keep you abreast of things, you note that an
5 attempt was made to kill him but they did not kill him." I don't have
6 time to put entire conversation to you, but this was a crisis, a huge
7 crisis, and the MUP patrolled hot spots and you don't know anything about
9 A. No, nothing.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't know how we should treat
12 this, Excellencies. Believe me, I would have this admitted, because it
13 directly states that the tensions started earlier on -- or, rather, not
14 tensions, a small-scale war, a local war among the local people.
15 JUDGE KWON: Could you be more specific how this is related to
16 the evidence of this witness?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, what happened to this witness
18 happened on the 9th of May, but the tensions did not start in April. The
19 tensions started in September, at least. There was gunfire, there were
20 barricades, and all of that had to be calmed down. This was a
21 preparation for what happened. This was a local development. It was not
22 ordered from headquarters. That is the essence of what I've been saying.
23 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you again, Ms. Edgerton?
24 MS. EDGERTON: It may be relevant to events in Bratunac generally
25 and aspects of the police forces, and on that basis I would have no
1 objection. It may be of some contextual assistance otherwise, but it's
2 certainly not relevant to this witness's evidence.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will receive it.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be MFI D1643, Your Honours.
6 JUDGE KWON: We will have a break for 20 minutes. We will resume
7 at 12 past 6.00.
8 --- Recess taken at 5.53 p.m.
9 --- On resuming at 6.11 p.m.
10 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Talovic, was your village of Glogova armed before the war?
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. In your statement of 2000, that's 1D4078, on page 2, you said --
16 I have to read it out in English so that it would be translated more
18 [In English] "Starting from the 1st of April, 1992, Serb police
19 were walking around Bratunac and villages, including Glogova. They had
20 loudspeakers, and they were asking people to surrender their weapons.
21 They also promise that had if we give our weapons, nothing bad is going
22 to happen to us."
23 [Interpretation] So did the Serb police ask for weapons to be
24 surrendered, and what was surrendered in Glogova?
25 A. Yes. They asked for the hunting guns that people had, along with
2 Q. Ah-ha. So what do we call this? There weren't automatic weapons
3 that were being distributed by the SDA and other activists?
4 A. I don't know. That is your information. That never happened in
6 Q. Thank you. In that same statement on page 2 you say -- again,
7 I'm going to read it out in English so it will be translated correctly:
8 [In English] "I had a hunting rifle that I gave away at the
9 municipality building. I had my pistol with me as well, but they did not
10 want to take it from me. They gave me a receipt for my rifle."
11 A. That's correct.
12 JUDGE KWON: Just for the record, I note it's identical to para
13 13 of his amalgamated statement.
14 Yes, Mr. Talovic. You said -- or you answered already, that's
15 correct. Yes, I'm sorry.
16 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do apologise to the Trial Chamber
18 and the Office of the Prosecutor. Right now there are going to be some
19 very short witnesses. I confused this witness with the previous witness,
20 so this is the witness who had a pistol. So would you please accept
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. So there were guards, guards in Muslim villages were Muslims and
24 in Serb villages they were Serbs, and there were night guards; right?
25 A. No.
1 Q. There were no guards in villages?
2 A. The Serb police guaranteed our safety and security if we handed
3 over the hunting weapons, as I've already explained, that we had, along
4 with permits, and we had no need to organise guard duty.
5 Q. In that same statement -- no. Yes. On page 2 of that same
6 statement, you say:
7 [In English] "I know that the SDA won the majority of seats in
8 Bratunac. I also remember that Nijaz Dubisic, SDA, became the president
9 of municipality. The president of the SDS was Miroslav Deronjic.
10 "A man called Sreten Radic was a member of the SDS. He was very
11 active, and he had some high rank in position of SDS.
12 "I do not know who was the chief of police, but I know that
13 police was divided to Serb and Muslim section. That started to happen in
14 April. We did not have police station in Glogova at all, so all that
15 happened in Bratunac."
16 [Interpretation] Do you agree that Serbs and Muslims were
17 together in the police until April and that the chief was a Muslim and
18 that a Serb was appointed quite late and that this was accompanied with
19 lots of quarreling?
20 A. You know what it was like. I was not a politician. The Muslim
21 policemen left Bratunac. They weren't at the station there at all.
22 Q. Do you agree that even when they divided the police, the Serbs
23 and Muslims remained in the same building but on different floors, and
24 they reached agreement, namely that Serbs would work in Serb villages and
25 Muslims in the Muslim villages but they lived and worked in the same
2 A. I have no idea whatsoever about the police.
3 Q. But over here you did mention that it had been divided. Can we
4 have a look at 65 ter number 603, 603, page 17 in English, and 13 in
6 The English seems to be all right.
7 MS. EDGERTON: The Serbian one is still upside down though.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. This is the 23rd of December, 1991, whereas in Serbian we need
10 the 9th of April, 1992. And I'm going to read it out in -- it's the same
11 collection of minutes. We'll find it. It's page 17 in Serbian as well.
12 Mr. Witness, if this is enlarged a bit, can you see that on the
13 agenda is:
14 "The analysis of the past negotiations with Muslims regarding the
15 division of power within the Bratunac municipality, duration of the
16 process and the setting up of the Serbian police force"?
17 Do you remember that an agreement was reached to constitute two
18 municipality in Bratunac, one Muslim and the other Serbian, and that even
19 there were congratulations exchanged, and that Mrs. Subic, the president
20 of the Socialist Party, attacked Izetbegovic after that for going back or
21 canceling this agreement? Don't you know that there was an agreement
22 reached in Bratunac?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Very well. In that case, apparently I shouldn't tender this into
25 evidence, but if an agreement was reached, would you agree that that was
1 a good starting point for solving the crisis in a peaceful way, that a
2 division was signed and in place, that people -- Muslims went to their
3 communities and Serbs went to their communities, and they would share the
4 same [indiscernible].
5 A. But why were you beating me then?
6 Q. Well, I can only regret what happened to you, Mr. Witness, but
7 one can see that there was bad blood between you starting from August
8 already, and it has nothing to do with me.
9 I'm asking you if the municipality was divided into two
10 municipalities, would that solve a problem?
11 A. The problem wouldn't be solved in any way, because people had no
12 weapons, and this is what you, Karadzic, brought upon my head.
13 Q. Let's look what you also said in your 2000 statement, which is
14 4078, page 3.
15 [In English] "I was present when this man called Milutin said
16 that they are going to collect weapons from the nearby Serb village
17 called Gornji Magasici as well. Later on, we found out that it did not
19 MS. EDGERTON: That's paragraph 14 of the witness's amalgamated
20 statement, P3188.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would never attack my
22 learned friend, Ms. Edgerton, but the truth is that we are receiving the
23 signed amalgamated statements at the 11th hour, although we do receive
24 drafts somewhat earlier.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. How do you know that the Serbs were not disarmed, and how do you
2 know that had the events not been so rapid what their intentions were?
3 A. I don't understand.
4 Q. You say that you know that Magasici hadn't been armed. How do
5 you know that?
6 A. Because they were shooting at us.
7 Q. Then you say on the same page:
8 [In English] "The collection was completed by the evening of that
9 day. They advised villagers to continue with their everyday activities
10 without any fear because we already surrendered our weapons."
11 [Interpretation] Is that correct?
12 A. Yes, it is.
13 Q. Thank you. Mr. Witness, do you know that on the 20th of April,
14 Naser Oric sent up an ambush for the Serbian reservists and that 20
15 volunteers were killed on that occasion, their bodies thrown into the
16 river. Do you recall that incident?
17 A. I don't know.
18 Q. Do you remember an event in Hranca on page 3 of this same
19 statement, 1D4078, but maybe inadvertently you gave the wrong date and
20 you said 3rd of April instead of the 3rd of May. Do you agree that it
21 could have been on the 3rd of May?
22 A. Yes. What I said in my statement about Sacir and his son did
23 happen on the 3rd of May. And on the 6th of April -- no, sorry. On the
24 6th of May, Hranca was completely cleansed.
25 Q. I am a bit perplexed, Mr. Talovic. On the 3rd of April, Bosnia
1 and Herzegovina was still in existence. There was joint Presidency and
2 the authorities. How come that nobody was informed about this attack on
3 Hranca on the 3rd of April? Maybe it did happen on the 3rd of May
5 A. I don't know all I know that it happened and that Hranca was
6 completely cleansed on the 6th and Glogova on the 9th.
7 Q. April or May?
8 A. The 9th of May.
9 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that there was no conflict in Glogova on
10 the 9th of April and, rather, on the 9th of May, and you corrected that
11 in your 2000 statement?
12 A. I didn't correct anything. The truth is that it did happen on
13 the 9th of May.
14 Q. Very well. Let us now look at a video-clip, 1D4079. Can we look
15 at this video-clip, please, 1D4079.
16 [Video-clip played]
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Is this the village of Hranca?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. On that day, was there an attack on a JNA column that was
21 withdrawing from Sarajevo and that 12 men were killed on that occasion?
22 A. I don't know anything about that.
23 Q. You know that some people fled Hranca, but you don't know what
24 they fled from and why they fled, and you don't know that a JNA column
25 was attacked while retreating and that 12 people were killed? Are you
1 telling me that you don't know anything about that and that those people
2 who came told you nothing about that?
3 A. It is not true that anyone was killed by the Muslims from Hranca,
4 any members of any ethnic community.
5 Q. Can we now look at another video which is 1D4080. Were there any
6 Serbs in Hranca?
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Serbian part of Hranca is next
9 to Glogova, 2 kilometres, and next to it is the Muslim part of Hranca.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Let's look how -- look at the Serbian houses in Hranca. Were
12 these Serbian houses destroyed by the JNA or the local Muslims?
13 A. The Muslims did not destroy Hranca.
14 Q. Thank you. Were you acquainted with the Serbs of Hranca? They
15 are only 2 kilometres from you.
16 A. Yes. I went to school with some of them.
17 Q. Have you forgotten, or maybe you don't know at all -- let me put
18 it this way: Did you know Judge Goran Zekic?
19 A. I did, formally.
20 Q. Was he from Bratunac? He was a deputy representing Bratunac, but
21 he was a judge in Srebrenica.
22 A. I don't know what he did and where he was a judge. This is the
23 first time that I hear of that.
24 Q. Did you forget? Did you omit it intentionally, or maybe you
25 forgot that on the 8th of May, Judge Goran Zekic was killed from an
1 ambush while he was try to find a solution for reconciliation between the
2 Serbs and the Muslims?
3 A. This is completely new to me, because I had no access to any news
4 on the 9th of May.
5 Q. But this was on all -- covered by all the media. A Serb judge
6 was killed. You didn't notice that?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have these two video-clips
9 admitted into evidence, Excellencies?
10 JUDGE KWON: I take it they are -- they were taken by the Defence
11 team recently, Mr. Karadzic?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: Speaking for myself, there's a basis for us to admit
14 the first one, but what's the purpose of the second one? Witness didn't
15 confirm anything about that video-clip.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we see the devastated Serbian
17 houses, and he alleges that this was not done by the Muslims. At the
18 moment, this village is being reconstructed, and I'm sure that neither
19 the Serbs nor the JNA had burnt it, and the witness says that some of the
20 Muslims of Hranca fled to his village.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's correct.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
23 Q. The event did not happen as it is indicated in the testimony,
24 but, rather, the column was attacked and the Serb houses were destroyed.
25 A. That's not correct.
1 JUDGE KWON: Can you confirm, Mr. Talovic, that the houses,
2 destroyed houses, were Serbian houses?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't confirm that, Your Honours.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Witness: Two-roofed houses are usually
6 Serbs, and those who have four are those belonging to the Muslims?
7 A. I never paid any attention to that.
8 Q. Was that the Serbian Hranca that we saw?
9 A. It could have been Muslim as well.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: I -- I just can't see any basis with respect to
12 the second film, Your Honour. The only evidence that we have about what
13 that film purports to represent comes from Dr. Karadzic's mouth.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit only the first one.
16 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1644, Your Honours.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Can we agree that your village of Glogova is situated on the
20 Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road on the right-hand side viewed from Bratunac?
21 A. There is an asphalt road that goes through Glogova, 4 or 5
22 kilometres, and Glogova is situated on the -- both sides of the road.
23 Q. But most of it is on the right-hand side; right?
24 A. I would say the ratio is 60/40, but all of it is -- all of it is
25 the local commune of Glogova.
1 Q. Thank you. Can we now have 1D4081. Unfortunately, we don't have
2 the translation yet, but the witness can understand our language. 1D4 --
3 yes, yes.
4 This is an Official Note from 2003 in which it says that a man
5 came and introduced himself. This name is confidential. And he said
6 that during the war he was Naser Oric's unit in the area of Srebrenica
7 and that he knows about how a number of Serbs had been killed in that
8 area. And he goes on to say, first of all, at the beginning of war in
9 1992, an ambush was set up on the Srebrenica-Zalazje road in which an MP,
10 Goran Zekic, was killed. It was carried out by Mrki and the son of Redzo
11 Salihovic from Bratunac, and all of this had been ordered by Naser Oric,
12 and he's talking about Zulfo Tursunovic.
13 And towards the bottom he says that in 1992 I was in the village
14 of Sandici, Bratunac municipality, where our forces manned a roadblock on
15 the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. Our forces means Muslim forces,
16 because he's a Muslim. In May and June - can we have the next page,
17 please - when a vehicle ran into an ambush with some people in it.
18 Milutin Milosevic from the Bratunac police station was taken prisoner.
19 Naser Oric was wounded there, as a result of which Naser Oric tortured
20 Milutin who was wounded. He said that he kicked Milutin and finally shot
21 him dead from a close range. Before he was killed, he was taken to
22 Konjevic Polje where he was tortured, cut with a knife, et cetera.
23 Did you know policeman Milutin Milosevic from the Bratunac police
25 A. I knew only a few policemen.
1 Q. Did you hear about this capture and murder of this police
3 A. This is something completely new to me.
4 Q. Can we now have two pages further. Can we see that part, and
5 let's see whether you've heard of this.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Well, Your Honour, I'm actually wondering why
7 we're going down this road with this statement. It's the same type of
8 thing we've dealt with again and again and again. This is unsourced.
9 The type at the first page indicates that it came from the Bratunac MUP,
10 but, in fact, if you look, Your Honour, it looks like it's been
11 photocopied from a book.
12 If there's a question in this related to this witness's evidence,
13 I'd like us to get on with it. I'm just wondering otherwise about the
14 relevance of this.
15 JUDGE KWON: I quite agree, Ms. Edgerton.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond briefly.
17 JUDGE KWON: You didn't give the time-frame of these events put
18 to the witness, and we have a witness who testified as to his surviving a
19 massacre scene. What relevance does this have to his evidence at all,
20 Mr. Karadzic? What -- before we proceed, what time-frame are we talking
21 about in this document?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This witness, a Muslim, came to
23 Bratunac to provide a statement to the police, and we can find out what
24 his name was, and he speaks of events on the 8th of May. Now, the
25 incident that this witness was affected by was on the 9th of May. And
1 here we can see the developments and the events and incidents between the
2 local Serbs and Muslims, and no one from outside the area in any way had
3 any influence on what was going on locally. They killed each other, and
4 it all started with their setting up barricades and ambushes and with the
5 killing of a Serb judge the previous day.
6 Now, all of this was happening in a relatively small area, and
7 this witness should be aware of it, because these are well-known events,
8 and they were reported in the media.
9 Now, if the witness refuses to know anything about it, that also
10 speaks of something.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know anything about
12 this, and I never heard about it. I didn't hear of any of it.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you will have less than ten minutes to
14 conclude your cross-examination.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. You mention a vojvoda, namely that these local Serbs who captured
17 you -- well, first of all, tell me, Witness, sir, when did you build a
18 dugout in Glogova?
19 A. It wasn't a dugout. It was a brook where we took refuge.
20 Q. Didn't you say that you actually sought refuge underground?
21 A. Well, this was below my meadow, some 150 metres further. There
22 were some trees there and some underbrush, and that's where we crawled
23 under and hid there.
24 Q. In your statement of 2000, you mention a number of individuals
25 who took part in the events on the critical day. You mentioned some
1 Serbs such as Dragan Stevic, Najdan Mladjenovic, and Momir Nikolic; is
2 that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. In your first statement, you never even mentioned Momir Nikolic;
6 A. I don't know if there was any need to mention him, because when
7 we were taken to the shopping centre, Momir Nikolic was there.
8 Q. And you recalled this subsequently in the year 2000 when asked
9 about it by the Prosecution; correct?
10 A. Well, I don't know. I probably mentioned that and maybe it
11 wasn't noted, but it is certain Momir Nikolic was there. There's no
12 doubt about it.
13 Q. Was Momir Nikolic a man of importance, or was he so irrelevant
14 that you never noticed him? I mean, who was more important, this
15 vojvoda, duke, or Nikolic?
16 A. Well, Nikolic.
17 Q. So how come you recalled a vojvoda and you did not recall
19 A. Well, because Mladjenovic came from Kravica. He talked briefly
20 to Momir, and then they took the five of us aside, and because we
21 couldn't all fit in the car, Mustafa Olic --
22 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the names of
23 the persons concerned.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Talovic, interpreters missed the names of the
25 persons you referred to. Could you repeat your answer.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to listen? Okay.
2 So when we were ordered to get into the car there was Mustafa, Sejid
3 Ibisevic and Almaz Talovic. They got into the car, and me,
4 Musan Talovic, and Dzevad, we just stood next to the car because there
5 was no room for us in the car that was headed for Bratunac.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. But somebody actually selected them out; correct?
8 A. Yes. Mr. Mladjenovic. He just came up and said, "You, you, you,
9 and you." That's it. Now there were five of us there, the five that I
10 mentioned earlier.
11 Q. Thank you. Was Golic important? Did he have an important role
12 then or later on in the armed forces?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You failed to remember, or perhaps you didn't see Mr. Deronjic at
15 the time in Glogova.
16 A. Well, whether I failed to remember or not, I don't know, but some
17 20 metres away from us, from the shopping centre, from that road there,
18 there were over 500 Serbs there, and we were all herded there, all of us
19 who were rounded up on that day, and then they were -- well, those who
20 were elected were taken for an execution by the river.
21 Q. You didn't see him; correct? You said -- you didn't say that you
22 saw him?
23 A. Well, I don't know. I just know that Momir was there. But
24 Deronjic was certainly the top man there. He must have been there. I
25 don't know.
1 Q. But in your statement of 2002, 65 ter 22268 in paragraph 3, you
2 say that you had not -- you did not see him on that day?
3 A. Well, if that's what I said, that's how it was. I stand by what
4 I said in my statement.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know how many Serbs from Bratunac were
6 killed in this war?
7 A. That's really a silly question.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now briefly take a look at
9 2135, please.
10 MS. EDGERTON: And just for the record, the witness said at
11 paragraph 8 of P3188, that he did not see Deronjic on the 9th of May.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we now please
13 pull up 2135.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Talovic, do you know that 90 per cent of the Serb soldiers of
16 the Bratunac Brigade were killed defending Serb villages?
17 A. That's news to me.
18 Q. Well, take a look at this list. It begins with number 152, and
19 this document ends at the number 487. And then there are some additional
20 names added by hand. So just take a look at this column where it says
21 "Defence, defence, defence, defence." So how many Serbs were killed in
22 Serb villages and how do you explain that?
23 JUDGE KWON: I see this as a total waste of time. After having
24 hearing from the witness that he had no knowledge, what's the point of
25 continuing such questions?
1 It's time for you to come to a conclusion.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Witness, who was there on that day? Who among the Serbs were
5 there in Glogova on that day?
6 A. Well, all the Serbs from the municipality were there. I don't
7 know how many, but they were all there.
8 Q. You mean local Serbs?
9 A. Well, yes, there were also some soldiers, as I said, the JNA, and
10 of course the army of the Serbian Republic.
11 Q. Do you know that on the 9th of May the Army of the Serbian
12 Republic did not exist?
13 A. Well, I don't know then who was made to shoot at me.
14 Q. Well, when you were arrested, your pistol was noticed.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then they confiscated it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Which unit was in Glogova then?
19 A. Well, only from what I heard from the media later --
20 MS. EDGERTON: Could Dr. Karadzic be asked to give the
21 interpreters a chance to finish interpretation before he ask the next
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well. You were in the middle of answering the
24 question which unit was in Glogova then, Mr. Talovic.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only heard on the radio that
1 mention was made of the Novi Sad Corps.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. What radio was that, what radio station?
4 A. Radio Loznica.
5 Q. Mr. Witness, you were -- there were some very bad blood there
6 locally from August onwards, and all of that was committed by men
7 locally; correct?
8 A. Well, we -- up until the 9th of May, we just went about our
9 business as normal, and I recall that on the 8th of May I was just busy
10 doing the regular things, toiling the soil and so on.
11 Now, as to who committed the murders, you as Karadzic should know
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to express my regret,
14 Your Honour, that I was not able and not allowed more time in order to
15 shed more lights on the events there and their causes, and I believe that
16 the integrity of the whole proceedings will be undermined by this.
17 JUDGE KWON: That's the matter for the Chamber to be concerned
19 Ms. Edgerton, do you have any redirect examination?
20 MS. EDGERTON: No, I don't, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Talovic. I
24 appreciate very much that you have travelled to come to The Hague to give
25 it. Now you are free to go. Please have a safe journey back home.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.
2 JUDGE KWON: We will rise together. There's no point of
3 continuing today given there's only five minutes, Ms. Sutherland.
4 Tomorrow we'll continue at quarter past 2.00 again. The hearing
5 is now adjourned.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.55 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 23rd day
9 of August, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.