1 Thursday, 25 August 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 2.27 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone.
7 If the witness could take the solemn declaration, please.
8 THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, sir. Please be seated and make yourself
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We couldn't hear the
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. That will be noted.
14 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Just, Your Honours, I'm sorry. Good morning --
16 good afternoon. I see on the transcript there was no interpretation of
17 the witness. I didn't get it on my headphones either.
18 JUDGE KWON: Sir, do you hear me? Do you follow the proceedings
19 in the language you understand?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
21 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed, Mr. Nicholls.
22 Ah-ha, the witness's declaration hasn't been reflected in the
24 Sorry for your inconvenience, but could you repeat your
25 declaration, please. Probably your microphone was not on at the time and
1 it was not interpreted. Thank you.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
3 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
4 WITNESS: KDZ-605
5 [Witness answered through interpreter]
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. Good afternoon again, Your Honours.
9 Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness.
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
12 be asked to move closer to the mike. Thank you.
13 MR. NICHOLLS:
14 Q. Thank you, Witness. Now, I'm just going to ask you a few
15 questions and please remember not to say your name as we talk today.
17 A. Okay.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: First of all, could I please have 65 ter 90263
19 which is the witness's statement on the screen, and it should not be
21 Q. Sir, now just a very few questions concerning this statement. Do
22 you remember that you and I met for the first time just this last Monday?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And do you remember that we went through a statement together
25 that day and that you signed the statement at the end?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Looking at the statement in front of you on the screen, without
3 saying your name out loud, under where it says "witness information,"
4 could you just please confirm to the Trial Chamber that your name is
5 written there.
6 A. Yes, it is.
7 Q. Thank you. And I have to ask you two more questions about the
8 statement. You recall it was read back to you on Monday, before you
9 signed it, off the computer screen. Can you confirm to the Trial Chamber
10 that this statement is accurate?
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 Q. And could you also please confirm that if you were asked
13 questions about the same topics that are in the statement today, that
14 your answers on those topics, the information you gave, would be the same
15 as what we have in the statement?
16 A. Yes, it would.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I ask to admit the statement under
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, just before I assign the exhibit
21 number to this, I make a correction to the exhibit list from yesterday.
22 65 ter number 00749 was assigned Exhibit P3205; in fact, it should be
23 Exhibit P3202.
24 And as far as this particular exhibit is concerned, 65 ter 90263,
25 that will be Exhibit P3205, under seal. Thank you.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honour, thank you. And before I continue, I
2 should note there is one typographical error on the cover of the
3 statement where it says language used in interview at the bottom, it says
4 "English." That should be "English and B/C/S" because both languages
5 were used.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, before we move on further.
7 Sir, I take it that you were explained as to the effect of the
8 protective measures you were given. Do you understand you will be called
9 rather by your pseudonym, and your voice and image will not be broadcast,
10 and when we are going to deal with the information that may reveal your
11 identity, we will go into private session, which means the people outside
12 this courtroom cannot follow the proceedings at all. Do you understand
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
16 MR. NICHOLLS: I will now read a brief summary of the statement
17 for the public.
18 The witness is a Muslim man who lived in Bratunac with his family
19 before the war. Tensions rose between Muslims and Serbs in Bratunac
20 municipality prior to the outbreak of the war in 1992. Paramilitary
21 troops, Arkan's men, and Seselj's men arrived in Bratunac on the 17th of
22 April, 1992. JNA soldiers also arrived and Muslim homes were broken into
23 and looted. In late April 1992, Muslims in Bratunac were required to
24 sign oaths of loyalty to the Serb authorities in Bratunac and the witness
25 personally signed such an oath. On 10 May, the witness and his family,
1 along with thousands of others -- of people, Muslim people from Bratunac,
2 were detained in the stadium in Bratunac town.
3 The witness was separated from his family, from his wife and from
4 his children. Women and children held at the stadium were taken to Tuzla
5 on buses. The witness and hundreds of other men were detained at the
6 Vuk Karadzic school and hangar in Bratunac. The witness was held at the
7 school for three days. During this time, he saw guards beating and
8 murdering prisoners. Men were beaten to death, stabbed, and shot. And
9 the witness was beaten when he was held at the Vuk Karadzic school.
10 After three days, most of the men held at the school were taken
11 by truck to Pale. There they were held in a sports hall for three days.
12 In Pale, in the sports hall, the conditions were better and the witness
13 did not observe any murders, but some prisoners were beaten. Ultimately,
14 the prisoners and the witness were taken from Pale in trucks to Visoko
15 and released.
16 That's the end of the summary.
17 Q. Sir, I have just a few questions for you, and the first thing I
18 want to do is show you a video which is 65 ter 40115A.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: We'll play it in Sanction, but I will ask to go
20 into private session, Your Honours, for the witness's comments on the
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, would you like to view the video in
23 private session?
24 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour. I've struggled to find a way to
25 deal with it. I think the best is to view it in private session.
1 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
2 May the Chamber go into private session.
3 [Private session]
11 Pages 17872-17878 redacted. Private session.
16 [Open session]
17 JUDGE KWON: And, Mr. Nicholls, you are tendering that video?
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
19 JUDGE KWON: That can be admitted in public?
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: That will be done, Exhibit P3206.
22 And you're tendering the associated exhibits?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honours, and I can read those numbers,
24 if you like. That would be --
25 JUDGE KWON: Six of them?
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, correct, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: But the sixth one is a video that we just saw?
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, Your Honour, six including the video.
4 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Robinson?
5 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. They will be all admitted and given numbers in
7 due course.
8 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I should say, if I may, that 618
9 should be under seal.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: 609 should be under seal, and 608 should be under
12 seal, and I can explain why in private session, if necessary. 23447, I
13 think should also be under seal, and that was a new document not on our
14 65 ter list which came up when I met the witness on Monday. I've spoken
15 to Mr. Robinson about it. He does not objected to it being entered -- to
16 it being tendered. I thank him for that.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 So the addition of the document was granted and will be admitted.
19 Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
20 Sir, you will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his
22 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency. Good
24 afternoon, Excellencies. Good afternoon, everyone.
25 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Witness.
2 A. Good afternoon.
3 Q. I am addressing you as Mr. Witness because of the protective
4 measures, and I hope I will not make an error and address you by your
5 real name. But please bear in mind that that wouldn't be intentional if
6 that happened because that would be a mere mistake. (redacted)
7 (redacted) is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who drafted the answers that you gave?
10 A. For the most part, I did.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls, you are referring -- you are
12 going to refer to lines 17 and 18?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, and if I could go into private session for
14 just one minute. I'm sorry to interrupt.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
16 [Private session]
3 [Open session]
4 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic, bearing that in mind.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. What did you say a moment ago? What formulated your answers?
9 Who chose the words?
10 A. Your Honours, nobody chose the words. I gave answers on my own,
11 the way I saw things, and I actually saw very little. There were a great
12 deal of things going on, but I just said what it was that I saw. And in
13 some cases, I spoke about the things I heard, too. At any rate, nobody
14 formulated my answers or suggested what I should say.
15 Q. Thank you. This cross-examination will be conducted in that
16 sense. We will try to spell out precisely what we can take as facts,
17 things you have seen yourself, and what are the things that you heard of.
18 But I would be interested in hearing who it was that lived in Bratunac,
19 which ethnic community, which people?
20 A. For the most part, Muslims and Serbs: 64 per cent Muslims;
21 32 per cent Serbs; a few others that characterised themselves as
22 "others." At any rate, it was a very small, negligible number.
23 Q. Thank you. How did it happen then that you kept repeating
24 Muslims and non-Serbs? Who are these non-Serbs of yours in Bratunac?
25 A. Well, those persons who characterised themselves as Yugoslavs,
1 Roma, there were a few Croats as well, a negligible number. Basically,
2 those were the people who were considered as "others."
3 Q. But these Yugoslavs, it doesn't mean that they were non-Serbs. I
4 wonder how you got this term "non-Serbs." Did you invent it or was it
5 suggested by the OTP?
6 A. No one formulated it. I said it of my own free will. I meant
7 people who were not Serbs and who were not Muslims either, in terms of
8 their orientation.
9 Q. Thank you. What was the population of your village?
10 A. In my local commune -- my local commune was not a village, it was
11 called a local commune. It was a wider area. I could never actually
12 establish that. I never know the exact figure. If you would like to
13 hear my free assessment, I can provide it, but it's probably not going to
14 be very accurate.
15 Q. And in your village itself?
16 A. It was not a village. Your Honours, that was a town, a suburb.
17 I cannot say in any way that this is a limited number of houses. Well,
18 it depends on what we are going to take into account and what we are
19 going to consider a village. (redacted) went from the outskirts of town, and
20 most of the area it comprised, it was, say, 2.000 people.
21 Q. Ah-ha, and the majority population was Muslim there; right?
22 A. That's right.
23 Q. There were Serbs there as well; right?
24 A. There were Serbs but very few.
25 Q. I do apologise for pausing and I'm asking you to do the same
1 thing because this has to do with interpretation. Are you familiar with
2 your municipality, its structure, who lives where and things like that?
3 A. Well, I know enough, quite a bit.
4 Q. Thank you. Now we're going to ask you to show us -- actually, I
5 did turn on my microphone. Can the interpreter hear me?
6 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Yes.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now we are going to show you a map, and we are going to identify
9 these settlements so that it would be easier for the Trial Chamber to
10 follow things.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D225. Could we please have that in
12 e-court. Thank you. Could we please zoom in on the middle part of the
13 right-hand side, on the very right.
14 Now, you will see in the middle of the picture Bratunac and
15 Srebrenica. So could we please zoom in there. It's Bratunac-Srebrenica
16 and that part of Serbia that is there.
17 JUDGE KWON: We need to zoom in further, pursuant to
18 Mr. Karadzic's --
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we put that in the centre, if
20 possible, please.
21 JUDGE KWON: No, no, to the right -- to the other way -- further.
22 We see Bratunac and Srebrenica on the right side part, why don't we put
23 it in the centre -- no, no, the other way around, further, further, and
24 we zoom in further.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On the very right.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, move it further. I think that -- is that --
2 does that suit you, Mr. Karadzic?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This will do. Thank you. I think
4 this will do.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Witness, do you see this dark line that denotes the border of
7 the municipality of Bratunac and the thin lines show the borders of
9 A. Yes, I see that. I see these lines showing the municipality of
11 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that Bratunac seems to resemble a
12 lizard, a salamander, if you wish, with a head on one side and a long
13 tail on the other side?
14 A. I have no idea how come you think it resembles that, but maybe
15 you could put it that way.
16 Q. Could you please mark Skelani with the map -- with the pen that
17 you've been provided with.
18 A. I was in Skelani personally. Skelani is right by the Drina,
19 upstream from Bratunac, 45 or 50 metres.
20 THE ACCUSED: May I ask the assistance with the pencil, please.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that is Skelani is
22 somewhere here, right on the Drina River, on the border with Serbia. On
23 this map -- actually, Skelani is on Drina and on the border with Serbia.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. But is it not these blue areas at the very horn, if you wish, on
1 the extreme right where the municipality of Bratunac starts by the Drina?
2 A. Skelani belongs to the municipality of Srebrenica, Your Honours.
3 Q. Can you mark that horn that is blue. And do you know that it
4 used to be a municipality, and during the war it was again the
5 municipality of Skelani?
6 A. Yes, I heard of that.
7 Q. Consisting of these Serb villages from Bratunac and Srebrenica;
9 A. I heard something like that, but I'm not sure.
10 Q. Thank you. Can you now mark Glogova with a G. You were in the
11 army, you are familiar with maps.
12 A. Well, in the army, yes. Glogova is not far away from Bratunac,
13 perhaps 10 kilometres away. First, it's the village of Hranica [phoen],
14 then there's a Serb village, then Hranca, and then Glogova, 10, 12
15 kilometres -- Glogova was a big village and basically populated by
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
18 speak into the microphone, we can no longer hear him.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Do you see the green area --
21 JUDGE KWON: Did you say anything further after saying Glogova
22 was a big village and basically populated by Muslims?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I didn't say anything else. I know
24 Glogova very well. (redacted)
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. When you answer the question, could you
1 kindly speak to the microphone so that the interpreters can follow you.
2 Thank you.
3 Let us continue, Mr. Karadzic.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, not to interrupt, but perhaps a
5 redaction in line 10.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. May I ask you, Mr. Witness, to note this point that shows the
9 town of Bratunac and then to the north-west. Is that the first Serb
10 village and then Hranca and then Glogova surrounded by Serb villages?
11 And can you place number 1 by Bratunac; 2 by the Serb village; 3 by
12 Hranca; 4 by Glogova using that pen?
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the witness
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Number 1, that's the town of Bratunac; right?
18 A. [No interpretation]
19 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Next to the west is the Serb village?
23 A. [No interpretation]
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot hear the
1 JUDGE KWON: Is it possible to move back the microphone, a bit
2 further. Yes.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Can you mark that Serb village with 2, Hranca; that is the next
5 one, by 3; and Glogova, the largest light area by 4, if those are the
6 villages concerned.
7 A. [Marks]
8 Q. Do you know where Glogova is? Do you see it there?
9 A. I'm not sure I see it. What colour? What colour denotes which
11 Q. Dark blue, Serbs; light green, Muslims. And when you move --
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I think we are -- we seem to be losing
13 the point when the witness is not able to identify where a certain
14 village is. We can do this by the exercise of comparing two maps later
15 on --
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.
17 JUDGE KWON: We can move on.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I agree.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Let me just ask you something, Mr. Witness: Is it correct that
21 an agreement had been reached and signed on establishing two
22 municipalities out of Bratunac; isn't that right?
23 A. The only correct thing in Bratunac was that an agreement was
24 reached to divide the police. As for two municipalities, I had never
25 heard of an agreement like that. The Serbs had asked for that kind of
1 thing, but I have no knowledge of any agreement being reached to that
3 Q. Thank you. And you were in the leadership of that party, weren't
5 A. Yes, yes, I was --
6 Q. Don't say where.
7 A. No. I was sort of a chairman in an area, but I also worked the
8 first shift. So I was always absent during the day. My engagement in
9 that government was virtually nil.
10 Q. Thank you. But did you hear of the Serbs asking for the
11 establishment of two municipalities, one Serb and one Muslim, and also
12 establishing a Serb MUP and a Muslim MUP, respectively, and that Serb
13 policemen go to Serb villages and Muslim policemen to Muslim villages,
14 and would these villages be in the Muslim municipality and the Serb
15 villages in the Serb municipality?
16 A. I just heard once of the Serbs asking for this division. This
17 was one particular variant. However, nothing was done about it. I don't
18 know what kind of maps were discussed, which villages should go where, I
19 did not participate in that, and I don't know about anybody saying
20 anything about that.
21 Q. Thank you. We had a higher official of your party here, the man
22 who had signed that agreement. Is it correct that the division of the
23 MUP was not something that you decided upon; rather, it had been agreed
24 at central level, the question of establishing municipalities and local
25 communes is a municipal affair. Did you agree that as for the MUP, a
1 decision had been made at central level, at the level of the ministry
3 A. I had not heard of that.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we remove this map. We're not
6 going to have anything signed. I just wanted the Trial Chamber to see
7 this salamander and also the distribution of the villages. If that is
8 the reason, then we can have this admitted, this section of the map, that
9 is, without having it signed.
10 JUDGE KWON: Has this not been admitted previously?
11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D225, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the whole map, but I meant
14 this segment of Srebrenica and Bratunac. But all right. The
15 Trial Chamber can always have it enlarged when they need it.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, with the magic of e-court we can do that.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We don't need the map
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You said in several places that you had attended a meeting at the
21 cinema, where Mr. Miroslav Deronjic, president of the SDS of Bratunac,
22 said -- and I'm going to quote that and I'm going to say what the
23 paragraph is, and that is 16, let me not say anything more than that,
24 paragraph 16 of the amalgamated statement. You say that he said:
25 "If there have to be conflicts, if conflicts break out in Bosnia,
1 then we are going to do our best to ensure that Bratunac is the last
2 place where this will happen."
3 Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, that's correct.
5 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the conflict in Bosnia broke out
6 on the 26th of March in Brod, on the 31st of March in Bijeljina, on the
7 2nd and 3rd of April at Kupres, and in Bratunac, it was only sometime in
9 A. I don't know about the other conflicts. I wouldn't know what the
10 answers would be. But in Bratunac, the conflict broke out a lot earlier.
11 Actually, there were conflicts, there were killings that started a lot
12 earlier, barricades, misunderstandings. But true ethnic cleansing and
13 persecutions started around the 9th of May, and then on the 10th of May
14 my neighbourhood had its inhabitants expelled.
15 Q. Thank you. We'll get to that. When I ask you about dates, then
16 let us identify the dates. Let us not go any further than that ethnic
17 cleansing, et cetera. That is a particular qualification and then I have
18 to do more than is necessary.
19 Tell us, please, are you referring to barricades, crises, and
20 killings that occurred in 1991?
21 A. Well, yes, that happened as well.
22 Q. However, you preserved the peace until the 9th of May, if we make
23 an exception in the case of what happened in September 1991, when there
24 was this killing in Kravica and the barricades were there?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. So, for all of four weeks you had peace, four weeks longer than
2 the rest of Bosnia?
3 A. Well, I don't know how you can call that peace. People were
4 afraid. People were detained. People did not move around. We did not
5 dare go into town. What kind of peace was that? I don't know what was
6 going on elsewhere. Quite simply, there was fear, we were expecting
7 something to happen, and then what happened did.
8 Q. Thank you. When you say people were detained, you mean that they
9 shut themselves up? It's not that somebody else had detained them?
10 A. Well, yes. People were shut in their homes and yards, and some
11 people would walk out and say that the situation was not good, that there
12 are some armies there and that there are weapons there and things like
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: I'd ask Your Honours to consider redacting from
24 line 24 on page 26 to 27, line 6.
25 JUDGE KWON: Shall we go into private session briefly.
1 [Private session]
13 [Open session]
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Witness, I'm going to call this "your village," and I am
17 kindly asking you not to mention its name. Can you tell me, why did you
18 ask for protective measures to be granted to you?
19 A. Your Honours, I asked for protective measures for one single
20 reason: I wanted to provide protection for my family. After my first
21 (redacted) I had serious problems. There were threats made, people called
22 me anonymously on the phone, and I had all sorts of problems and the
23 local authorities are aware of that.
24 Q. Thank you. I might agree that only victims are entitled to
25 protective measures, not witnesses, but that was a decision of the
1 Chamber and I'm not interested in your motives.
2 In your amalgamated statement, did you say in paragraph 20 --
3 JUDGE KWON: That was an unnecessary and improper comment during
4 the course of your examination.
5 Mr. Nicholls.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours, and I'm sorry to keep
7 doing this, but I'd like to redact line -- the first word in 28, line 6.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, Your Excellency, but I
9 have no other way of indicating and showing to you that I have 142
10 witnesses of which only two are viva voce witnesses. And there's a
11 plethora of protective measures that, in my mind, are totally
12 unnecessary. So this proceedings look to me to be somewhat odd. I don't
13 want some untruths to be discovered by people on the ground because I am
14 receiving feedback information that untruths are being spoken here.
15 JUDGE KWON: What I meant, Mr. Karadzic, was this is not a proper
16 moment, i.e., in the presence of the witness, to argue as to the
17 appropriateness of protective measures.
18 Let's move on. And the word to be redacted is not your words,
19 it's ...
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will take care to
21 refer to his village as a village only.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. In paragraph 20 of your amalgamated statement, did you say that
24 first a JNA officer arrived and that he wanted to collect the military
25 records. Since he was denied that, he came again with some people, but
1 the residents prevented him from taking these records and that you took
2 part in that?
3 A. Yes, Your Honours.
4 Q. And then you said that after this incident, all Muslims and other
5 non-Serbs refused to respond to mobilisation and refused to participate
6 in the war in Croatia. Up until the 31st of August, had the Muslims went
7 to do their military service and responded to call-ups and stopped doing
8 that after the 31st of August?
9 A. I don't know if I can answer that because I was not in the
10 government structure in the municipality and I did not keep record of who
11 went and who didn't. Anyway, I heard that there were people who refused
12 to join the army and to be mobilised and sent away to a front line.
13 Q. Thank you. Did you hear that much earlier Mr. Izetbegovic and
14 the Muslim and Croatian part of the Presidency had recommended that
15 conscripts refused to respond to mandatory, compulsory military service
16 or mobilisation?
17 A. Your Honours, I personally didn't hear that, but people used to
18 talk about that, the people of Bratunac.
19 Q. Thank you. Then this sentence where you said that after that
20 incident the Muslims and Serbs refused to respond wouldn't be correct; is
21 that right?
22 A. I'm not sure.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 22, you said - and I'm paraphrasing in
24 Serbian - that paramilitary groups started appearing in Bratunac on the
25 17th of April. You said that there were Arkan's and Seselj's troops.
1 They used to drive cars belonging to the Yugoslav People's Army. They
2 were dressed in camouflage uniforms, et cetera. Can you tell me, please,
3 the reservists who responded to mobilisation call-ups, what kind of
4 uniforms did they have and what kind of vehicles did they drive in?
5 A. Your Honours, the reservists who responded to the mobilisation
6 were mostly Serbs. And since what was all -- it was already summer, they
7 were dressed in summer uniforms, military uniforms. As for the vehicles
8 in -- if there was any movement of troops, they would normally use army
9 vehicles, but I don't remember that there was much movement initially,
10 after the mobilisation.
11 Q. How do you know that these people there were Arkan's formations
12 and you say that they declared themselves as belonging to Arkan's or
13 Seselj's formations? How did you know that?
14 A. Your Honours, I have information from a worker who used to work
15 with me. I was his foreman. He left his job very early, he told me that
16 he was going to Croatia to the battle-field. And after a month or two,
17 after that, I saw him again in Bratunac. I saw him in town. And he told
18 me that he was a member of Arkan's unit that was fighting in Croatia.
19 Q. Thank you. We'll have to go into closed session once I decide to
20 ask you to tell me his name. Here you say that you were told this by
21 your Serbian neighbours and also I will ask you their names in a closed
22 session. But tell me, how do you know that there were Seselj's men there
23 as well?
24 A. The majority of information we got was from the people who went
25 into town as well as the Serbs with whom we still had some contacts,
1 those were the citizens that retained their jobs and their Serb friends
2 told them that Arkan's men and Seselj's men were coming, that they wanted
3 to cause disruption, and that we were going to drive them out and that we
4 would not allow them to create problems in our town.
5 Q. Thank you. But judging by the insignia, it was impossible for
6 you to determine who was which paramilitary unit in particular. Were you
7 able to recognise who the JNA reservists were?
8 A. Yes, because I knew almost everybody in Bratunac, not by name but
9 by sight, and I saw a lot of local Serbs who put on those military
11 Q. Thank you. In the next paragraph, you say that you heard many
12 things from other Bosnians who at that time, in mid-April, were still
13 going to work alongside their Serbian neighbours; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Can you tell us where this Bane came from and to which unit did
16 he belong?
17 A. Bane said that he was from Serbia, that he was a member of
18 Arkan's unit, and we-- quite simply, he said that he had been invited to
19 come there, that he had been paid to kill people.
20 Q. We will come to this issue of payment. You inquired about this
21 with the local Serbs, but can you tell me when did that man have this
22 cross carved in his arm?
23 A. This cross was carved, in my opinion, on the second day inside
24 the hall. They brought school desks and put them in a circle in the
25 middle of the hall. That is when Bane and the other two men who killed
1 most people would call people's names. But sometimes even if you
2 established an eye contact with this Bane, he would simply point a finger
3 at you and say: Come out, and you would have to come inside the circle.
4 Sometimes they would take a volleyball ball and hurl it at somebody, and
5 the detainee that he hit with the ball was forced to come into that
6 circle, where he was beaten and some people were beaten to death.
7 Q. Thank you. You said that was on the second day. When was that?
8 So you said you came to this school on the 11th?
9 A. I was brought to this school on two occasions. The first time I
10 was singled out from a column that was supposed to enter the stadium.
11 They simply told me that I couldn't go in, that I had to make a
12 statement. They took me to the school building where they beat me. A
13 Serb friend of mine recognised me, tried to rescue me so that I wouldn't
14 be killed, but I cannot relocate you. You will have to go to the stadium
15 again and then you will be transported to Tuzla. I was returned to the
16 stadium, and when -- in early evening they started evacuating people from
17 the stadium --
18 Q. We'll come to that. Let us just identify the day when this man
19 had this cross carved in his arm.
20 A. I'm not sure whether that happened on the first or the second
22 Q. 11th/12th?
23 A. The 12th or the 13th. Everything that happened in the hall in
24 Bratunac happened on those two days.
25 Q. On the 12th or 13th of May. You arrived in Visoko on the 17th of
2 A. Yes, I think it was either the 17th or the 18th.
3 Q. Do you have any explanation how -- as to how it was possible for
4 this wound to heal so quickly and that completely new skin, fresh skin,
6 A. Your Honours, I'm not an expert. People were injured in all
7 sorts of ways from the beating. When -- if they beating someone and they
8 decided to kill someone, they would leave the one who was being beaten
9 and then go away and then we would try to help this person. As for this
10 wound, I don't know how long it took for it to heal.
11 Q. I am a physician. What it looks to me, Mr. Witness, is as if
12 something was rubbed in, into the skin. If it had really been the skin
13 carved with a knife, four days is not enough for such heal -- wound to
15 A. You're --
16 JUDGE MORRISON: Dr. Karadzic --
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours --
18 JUDGE MORRISON: Excuse me, Dr. Karadzic, you are giving
19 evidence. That is simply not permissible and this is not an expert
20 witness. He can't deal with it, but there are other ways that you can
21 deal with it.
22 JUDGE KWON: Further, the witness has answered the question. Let
23 us move on, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Today, on page 9, you said that your name was called out -- some
2 people were called out as well to come out to be beaten. And elsewhere
3 you said -- and I can find the exact reference. You said that sometimes
4 they called the names of the people who weren't there at all. Can you
5 decide in what way and what criterion did they apply in calling out your
6 names? Why did they call your names at all? Why didn't they take you
7 out one by one?
8 A. Your Honours, I personally believe that pieces of paper were
9 being brought from another room. Somebody would bring it to the door and
10 the guard would then pass these people on to those who were doing the
11 killings, and before that, they would call out the names. That happened
12 on a number of occasions, and I think that that happened to people who
13 had some dispute with a Serb or an altercation or a fight. That was a
14 good chance to exact revenge.
15 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 32 you say that you had not seen the
16 killing of Mumin Selimovic and that you heard most of these things. In
17 paragraph 33, the last sentence says:
18 [In English] "I did not witness it myself."
19 [Interpretation] So you say that you did not witness it yourself.
20 Can we ask you to identify all the things that you heard and to
21 make a distinction between that and the things that you saw. What was it
22 that you saw? Did you see that cross being carved into that arm? A few
23 moments ago, you said that you did see that.
24 A. I did see that.
25 Q. And blood came out then?
1 A. Yes, I think so. I think there was blood.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Where in paragraph 32 - could Dr. Karadzic show me
4 - the witness said that he heard most of these things.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, here it is in paragraph 32:
6 [In English] "On 18th of April, 1992, a local salesman called
7 Mumin Selimovic was killed. He was found dead by the Krizevica River. I
8 knew Mumin Selimovic well. He was the manager of the department store in
9 Bratunac, so everybody in Bratunac knew him. I did not see it, but I
10 only heard from people detained with him," or with me, probably, because
11 it is obviously partially [indiscernible] --
12 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, there was no problem reading that part out,
13 that he heard about this incident, but Mr. Karadzic tried to imply that
14 the witness had somewhere said that he heard most of these things, and
15 that's nowhere in the paragraph he cited.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in paragraph 33, as well, at
17 the end, it says:
18 "I did not witness it myself."
19 I did not see this personally. But with regard to most
20 incidents -- actually, the witness heard about more things than he saw,
21 but about the carving of the cross in the arm, blood gushes out, in that
22 case. And that is what we would like to hear about. It is different
23 when it is carved in with a knife or if something else happens.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So you saw that?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And there was blood?
3 A. Well, you cannot say that it exactly gushed, but since this was
4 an army knife, experts know full well that it is not sharp, it is just a
5 pointed knife, and it can leave a strong mark, but it does not
6 necessarily mean that there has to be lots of blood.
7 Q. Was the skin cut?
8 A. I think it had been cut, but not very much.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 JUDGE KWON: Now we'll take the break for 25 minutes and resume
11 at ten past 4.00.
12 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.
13 --- On resuming at 4.11 p.m.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Were you familiar with these events in Bratunac?
18 A. Your Honour, I don't know which events I'm being asked about. I
19 knew about most of the incidents.
20 Q. Thank you. Do you know that on the 9th of April there was an
21 agreement reached that the public security station would be divided and
22 that there would be a Serb part and a Muslim part, and that they remained
23 on the same premises but on different floors?
24 A. Well, I know that there was a separation, but what the agreement
25 was exactly, I don't know, and they were not in the same building, but,
1 rather, in two different buildings. The Bosnian police remained in the
2 old police station, whereas the Serb policemen who opted for the Serbian
3 police left and were located in an old school building not far from the
4 train station.
5 Q. Thank you. Now you confirmed this when you said that on the 18th
6 of April some volunteers arrived, some of whom joined paramilitary groups
7 and others joined the JNA as volunteers; correct?
8 A. On the 17th of April, these volunteers arrived. They had -- they
9 came from Serbia. That was the information that I had. And a group of
10 them took lodging at Fontana Hotel in Bratunac. Later on, they had a
11 headquarters in cafe called Jasen, which was not far from the church and
12 mosque in Bratunac, because in Bratunac, I believe the church and the
13 mosque actually were on the same plot of land. They were on either side
14 of a road.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, is it correct that the Serbs and Muslims -- the
16 leadership, the Serbian and Muslim leadership, had joint meetings with
17 these volunteers at Hotel Fontana? Just tell us if you know about it.
18 A. Well, I did hear that there was a meeting, and I also heard from
19 a Bosniak who had come from Tuzla who told me that these volunteers told
20 them that they should leave there for Tuzla, they should go back to
21 Tuzla, and they did. He didn't say why he had to go, but he said that he
22 was trying to save his skin.
23 Q. Thank you. Well, let's try and make a distinction between
24 paramilitaries and volunteers. I'm sure that you could see for yourself
25 that this Bane was an Arkan man, but, as for the others, you couldn't
1 really make the distinction?
2 A. Well, yes, Bane said that he was an Arkan man. He didn't have
3 any insignia. He had just a uniform that was sort of nondescript.
4 Everyone had uniforms like that. Others had other uniforms, and they,
5 themselves, said that they were Arkan's men.
6 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that the local reservists had JNA
7 uniforms and insignia?
8 A. Well, yes. The locals - and there were quite a few of them - had
9 JNA uniforms and of course they bore JNA insignia. But some didn't even
10 have any insignia but just the uniforms.
11 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that Naser Oric set an ambush on the
12 20th of April for these volunteers, on which occasion he killed 12 of
13 these volunteers and disposed of their bodies by dumping them in the
15 A. Well, Your Honours, all I can say is that I heard information --
16 I heard the -- about these things. I didn't see anything for myself --
17 with my own eyes. I was at home at the time. I heard that these -- that
18 this Arkan group of volunteers had come to Srebrenica. I did see them
19 riding around town in some vehicles and looting, and they went to the
20 local department store where they looted some items. And most probably
21 what happened was that on their way back this ambush was set up, or maybe
22 they had gone back and then returned, and on that occasion they were
23 ambushed. But he didn't really throw their bodies into the river. He
24 just set up this ambush. What happened was that some of them got killed,
25 and as the river ran nearby, I heard later on that some of their bodies
1 were actually recovered from there.
2 Q. Thank you. Now, tell me, did this actually contribute to a
3 deterioration of the relationship between Srebrenica and Bratunac?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: The situation in
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, that's what I heard.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Is it correct that the Serbian public security station --
9 JUDGE KWON: I want to tell you to put a pause. Let's move on,
10 Mr. Karadzic.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. It says here that you heard that the situation in Bratunac was
14 exacerbated by this, but you did not see this for yourself. But you
15 could actually see for yourself that the tensions had risen?
16 A. Well, yes, I did. You could feel it. And especially when we
17 heard of this incident, then we also got frightened.
18 Q. Is it true that the Serbian public security station had only 11
19 police officers?
20 A. Your Honours, I don't know how many police officers there were
21 from the time when the police separated. I never went into the police
22 station anymore and I didn't have any contacts with anyone from either
24 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that these paramilitaries were a
25 dominant force there, that they confiscated police vehicles from the
1 police officers and that they began to enforce the law there?
2 A. Your Honour, I can't tell you what they did or what happened, but
3 the fact is that we heard the screeching and sirens of police vehicles.
4 These vehicles were from another state and you could hear this at night.
5 Of course this was totally unusual. We heard the sirens of police
6 vehicles. We heard them crossing the bridge. And we concluded that
7 something was wrong and that the situation in the town itself was very
8 bad, so we did not go there anymore. We never ventured out of our homes
9 after that.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, in late April, is it correct that another group
11 of volunteers arrived and that they, too, split, that one group joined
12 the JNA, and the others as volunteers, and the others just formed a
13 paramilitary group. So did this paramilitary force that was there, was
14 it reinforced by this new group?
15 A. Well, I really don't know much about that. I did hear that there
16 was another group that arrived. I don't know exactly when it was, I just
17 heard that there was a group of paramilitaries at the Fontana Hotel and
18 there was another group at the Jasen cafe.
19 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that on the 3rd of May in Hranca, which
20 is between a Serbian village and Glogova, a JNA column was attacked in
21 which 12 men -- and in this attack 12 men were killed?
22 A. Your Honour, we were never told, nor did I ever hear that a
23 column was attacked, and especially not that there were 12 fatalities of
24 12 dead Serbian soldiers. I did hear on one occasion from an old man,
25 the father of Ismet, the cobbler, who was -- that there was a man brought
1 from Hranca, a very old man, whose back was -- who had a hump on his
2 back. And this man was brought into the room and was beaten by this
3 Bane. He was the one who said that there was a column going through
4 Hranca. And then Bane said: Well, this column was attacked while it was
5 going through Hranca and you contributed to this, and so on, and this
6 poor man said: How could I have done anything? Look at me, I'm an old
7 man. And, anyhow, I think that he was killed, that Bane shot at him and
8 he was killed.
9 Q. You think he was killed?
10 A. Well, yes, I know that he was killed at the hangar. I am sure
11 that you can actually easily establish that because there were quite a
12 few men who were killed there and who were then buried at the Bratunac
14 Q. Is it correct that on the 8th of May, Goran Zekic, a deputy and
15 judge, was killed?
16 A. Well, yes, that's correct. I'm sure it is true. I heard of
18 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that following these two incidents the
19 road between Kravica and Rogova --
20 THE INTERPRETER: And Glogova, interpreter's correction.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. -- was cut off, that barricades or roadblocks were erected there
23 and that this only contributed to a further deterioration?
24 A. Well, that's possible but I never took that road. I did not go
25 towards Glogova and I can't really tell. But I do know that Goran Zekic
1 was killed. (redacted)
5 (redacted) And
6 that's how I heard, but I didn't take that road again.
7 Q. Thank you. That means that you don't know who took part in the
8 incident on the 9th of May in Glogova?
9 A. I don't really know.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I see Mr. Nicholls is on his feet.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
12 MR. NICHOLLS: No objection, Your Honour, I'm sorry to interrupt.
13 Could we go into private session for one second?
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 [Private session]
25 [Open session]
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. You described how your village and Mihajlovic and Krasan Polje
5 were places where paramilitaries came, or volunteers, but I think you
6 also mentioned that the JNA entered the villages, or its volunteers, and
7 demanded that weapons be surrendered because then they -- their security
8 and safety could be guaranteed?
9 A. Yes, that's correct. The army came and they asked for weapons.
10 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that Milutin Milosevic prevented the
11 rape of a young girl, beat up a member of this paramilitary group?
12 A. Well, I'm not sure that I've heard of this particular incident,
13 but I did hear of occasions where crimes were prevented.
14 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that as a result of all these
15 incidents -- we've seen that there was a killing on the 20th of April by
16 Arkan's men or other paramilitaries; then the 3rd May, the attack on the
17 column; the 8th of May, the murder of Goran Zekic. Is it correct that
18 then a lynch mob was -- came into being, as it were, and that it became
19 very dangerous for Muslims to move around and that that's why it was
20 dangerous to, for instance, go to the health centre, and so on?
21 A. Well, certainly it was dangerous, especially because we, Muslims,
22 had no leadership. We didn't have any organised group of people who
23 would advise us on what to do. We were just left to our own devices. We
24 were just sitting there waiting for God knows what to happen. We signed
25 our oaths of allegiance to the Serbian municipality. Some people
1 returned who had earlier left for Tuzla, but I just want to say that
2 before the murder of Goran Zekic -- before the killing of Goran Zekic and
3 these people in Potocari, there had been the attack on Srebrenica, where
4 there was a lot of shooting and shelling. There were helicopters flying
5 over, going to Srebrenica, so that the overall situation was laden with
6 fear and difficulty.
7 Q. Thank you. But you were not in Srebrenica, were you?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Is it correct that your leadership, as early as mid-April, left
10 Bratunac, or part of your Muslim leadership?
11 A. Yes, Your Honour. Most of our leaders simply left. They just --
12 the authorities just sort of fell apart. They were afraid. They
13 realised they couldn't do anything there, so they just left because we
14 were exposed. You could see on the other side of the Drina you could see
15 the Serbs or they could see us. And simply Nijaz Durakovic told me one
16 day: Well, don't worry, if need be, we will just move out. We will hand
17 the town over to them. If need be, we will provide transportation for
18 all of you. But anyhow, whether they voluntarily or not, in any case, we
19 tried to save our skins.
20 Q. You speak about that in paragraph 36 of your statement, that
21 between the 18th and 29th of April, the ultimatum period, you say that it
22 was relatively peaceful, and you say that: We were asked to return to
23 work and allowed to move freely in town. And then you say: Most of the
24 Muslim population had left the area over the next few weeks. Many did
25 not return to work because they were too afraid. That is what you are
1 saying; right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Who called you back to work? Who asked the refugees to come
4 back? Who called the Muslims to go back to work?
5 A. For the most part, these were individual calls, people who
6 happened to have some contact with Serbs. And then they talked about it
7 in town. They said that the Serbs took over the government in town and
8 all of that was happening, and they were saying that they as the
9 authorities, the government, and the Serb police were providing
10 guarantees. Some people believed that. They went back to work. This
11 did not last for a very long time. I personally did not leave home at
13 Q. Thank you. I asked you about the number of policemen. How many
14 houses and apartments were abandoned when this population left in
15 mid-April? How many houses had to be guarded? Many, right, many?
16 A. Well, quite a few Bosniak houses were in town, in the centre of
17 town. I don't know how many policemen there were. At any rate, people
18 left their homes in the centre of town and most of the people who lived
19 outside the centre did not leave their houses. However, some people from
20 the centre of town did not flee to Tuzla either. They simply spent their
21 time in the suburbs, or rather, these places that were further away from
22 town, as it were.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 37 you say that -- I'm going to read it
24 out in English:
25 [In English] "The Serbs made it appear as if they wanted the
1 people back and everything was back to normal."
2 [Interpretation] The last sentence of this paragraph
3 [as interpreted]:
4 [In English] "... Bratunac municipality, that we are signing
5 this --"
7 "I cannot give you exact wording, but the main thing I remember
8 about the content of these papers was that it said we were loyal citizens
9 of the Bratunac municipality, that we are signing this document, and in
10 exchange for this signature, they are going to guarantee the safety of
11 our property and our freedom."
12 [Interpretation] Does that mean that if you live in your own
13 house, and if you state that you're not going to shoot, they, on their
14 part, will guarantee your security?
15 A. We signed an oath of allegiance to that municipality; quite
16 simply, we had no choice. That is what we were told when signing this
17 and also during some contacts. However, there was very little contact,
18 because we were afraid when we came before the municipality and when we
19 were signing this. We said that the precondition was that, that is to
20 say, whoever does not sign this will not have a security guarantee. And
21 practically all of us decided to do it, all of us from my neighbourhood
22 went there and signed that piece of paper.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 41, you describe that, as for your
24 village -- no, settlement - it's not a village - an officer came there.
25 He assembled you there, Remzija Halilovic did, and the officer delivered
1 a speech, said that he was a captain of the JNA and that he was in charge
2 of the security of the civilian population of Bratunac. He proposed that
3 you hand over your weapons. He said that it was up to you; however, he
4 thought that it would be better for you to surrender your weapons; right?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. Thank you. When all of this happened, when all of these people
7 were killed, and when this lynch atmosphere came into being, you say that
8 you were told to assemble at the stadium for the sake of your own safety.
9 Do you agree that 11 Serb policemen could not protect even themselves,
10 let alone masses of people like that?
11 A. Your Honours, our very own neighbours, the locals, took us from
12 our homes and brought us there. I had no way of knowing there were only
13 11 Serb policemen there. There were a lot of people in Bratunac who were
14 armed. These volunteers did not really go out of town to get people. I
15 remember that morning when we were picked up, there was such a lot of
16 gun-fire around town that I thought it was perhaps 2 kilometres away from
17 my house. I thought the shooting was right underneath my window. And I
18 saw everything in flames, hills, sheds where the cattle were, everything.
19 I fled from home. I told my wife that I had to run away. After that, I
20 saw men in military uniforms getting close to the houses, and all of a
21 sudden people were on the road leading to town.
22 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 46, you say that you thought it was time
23 for you to hide, and you told your wife to watch the children. So you
24 left your children to your wife and your wife to your children because
25 they were not in danger. Otherwise, you, as a traditional Balkan male,
1 would not have done that. Why would you have to hide as opposed to them?
2 A. Your Honours, I think that this question is really -- well, we
3 all knew that the military-aged men were the first to be detained and
4 arrested and that they would leave women and children alone. I did not
5 hide very far away from my home. I couldn't go very far away. I just
6 went to some bushes about 200 metres away from my house, and I observed
7 the situation. At the moment when a man came to us and said that our
8 family members were under threat, as the gentleman said just now, when I
9 realised, as a Bosnian male, that my family would be in danger, I left
10 the bushes and joined my family in this column.
11 Q. Thank you. Is it possible, though, that the army held something
12 against you or some paramilitaries did? Because you see here that in
13 August 1991, you took part in this operation that prevented the army from
14 carrying out its duties related to military files? Also, your brother
15 had deserted in 1991 from the JNA, as an active-duty military officer,
16 and came to live with you. Was that perhaps the reason why you had to
17 hide and your family did not have to hide?
18 A. That's not the reason. Quite simply, atmosphere was like that.
19 We, all the men, thought that we should hide a bit. We knew that there
20 was no place to hide, but anyway. It's not that anyone had anything
21 against me, either the soldiers or anybody else in Bratunac.
22 Q. But it is correct that you did prevent the army from taking
23 military files and that your brother deserted in 1991 and came to live
24 with you; right?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. All right. Now, in paragraph 48, did you say that you had been
2 told to seek shelter at this stadium for your own protection? Is that
3 true or not? And were you told that you would be protected from Arkan's
4 men there, Arkan's men who were causing all the problems; is that right?
5 A. Well, when leaving the houses, and when I left the bushes and
6 when I got out into the road that leads to town - and then, later on,
7 from town to the stadium - along the way people had some contact with
8 these soldiers and what was said was that they would simply take us to
9 the stadium, protect us, prevent Arkan's men from killing us and robbing
10 us, and a few people from my neighbourhood should give statements and
11 then we would all be allowed to go home. That is correct.
12 Q. Thank you. Is that the reason why you thought that the moment of
13 your arrest was not when you came out with your family but the moment
14 when you were taken from the stadium to the station to give an interview
15 or statement?
16 A. Yes. Later on, I heard, Your Honours, that these guards were
17 reading out my name on the road in connection with two other people from
18 (redacted) who were supposed to give statements.
19 Q. Thank you. Then you were taken to the station. First, you hid
20 in the bushes, then you joined your family, then you set out to the
21 stadium, as instructed. And along the way to the stadium, you were told
22 that you should go to the station to give a statement; right?
23 A. As we were about to get to the main road, I was recognised by one
24 of my employees, previous employees. He walked up to me and said, (redacted)
1 (redacted) As we were getting closer to the stadium, two
2 soldiers walked up to me and asked me whether I was such and such a
3 person and I was told that I had to go to the police station to give a
4 statement. And that's the way it was.
5 Q. Thank you. Occasionally, you said that your suburb, or your
6 neighbourhood, had up to 3.000 inhabitants including women and children;
7 is that right? However, there were fewer than 1.000 of them; is that
9 A. Your Honours, we are going back to the same question again. (redacted)
11 (redacted) proper itself, then the
12 number of inhabitants is lower.
13 Q. Something has to be redacted, obviously, and the Defence has no
14 objection to that.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Branko Jovanovic wanted a list to be made of the Muslims who were
18 issued weapons; is that correct?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If necessary, we can go into
20 private session for a short time. Do we need a private session?
21 JUDGE KWON: We'll go into private session.
22 [Private session]
11 Page 17917 redacted. Private session.
17 [Open session]
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Did they get this list that they wanted, and how long was it?
22 A. I did not make any list. I simply told them that I didn't
23 distribute any weapons, that I, myself, didn't have any weapon, that I
24 hadn't been making any lists. That enraged them, and they said, "All
25 right. Let's go to the hall and you're going to see us killing." And
1 they simply said that that will happen to me.
2 Q. Thank you. Is it true - and I can refer you to proofing notes
3 (redacted) - that you said that the Serbs told the local Serb
4 authorities that they were fighting the paramilitaries with the aim of
5 chasing them out of the zone but that they were not exactly successful in
7 A. Yes, Your Honours, some Serbs used to say that. I could never
8 believe that was true, that they couldn't manage to deal with a group of
9 people. But we did hear that from our Serb acquaintances.
10 Q. That is contained in 1D4113. You also said in that same
11 statement, in that same document, rather, that the guards told you that
12 everything was going to be all right as soon as the Serbian leadership
13 managed to expel those people outside the town and that neither you nor
14 they knew who was paying them?
15 A. Yes, Your Honours. While these killers were passing from the
16 hall, the guards at the door who were our neighbours were very kind and
17 polite. They talked to us and they told us, "Okay, you who remained
18 here, we are going to try and save you. Don't be afraid. The only
19 problem we have to resolve is to get rid of Arkan's men, and you will be
20 released after that." We believed that that was a good plan, and we
21 expected that to come true. However, an officer came into the hall and,
22 quite simply, he started shouting, "What are you doing with these
23 people?" And with the simple command, he just drove all these people out
24 of the hall and they left after a few hours. This officer then brought
25 some food and water, together with two soldiers. But as soon as he went
1 away, these same people reappeared and continued the killing. So I
2 really couldn't understand what was actually happening.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 Did you say in your statement given to the (redacted)
5 (redacted) that you noticed
6 that people were singled out according to a certain pattern, and that
7 people from Potocari were in greater danger because the group of Arkan's
8 was killed -- Arkan's men were killed there? It's document 1D142.
9 Did -- is that what you observed, that these people were in greater
10 dangers and that they were more frequently singled out?
11 A. Yes, Your Honours, that's what I observed. I heard them asking
12 several times whether there were people from Potocari or Srebrenica, and
13 anyone who responded was severely beaten up.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
16 Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I'm sorry to interrupt, at page 53,
18 line 8, could we redact the date. I haven't come up with it until now.
19 I just wanted to check in the prior testimony he has referred to by
20 exactly the same date.
21 JUDGE KWON: Actually, the transcript does not contain the date,
22 actually. Did --
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Our transcript, Your Honour?
24 JUDGE KWON: The transcript.
25 MR. NICHOLLS: It does on page 53, line 8, to the proofing note.
1 JUDGE KWON: The month was not reflected. I am -- very well.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Oh, it didn't -- I think it was said but did not
3 show up in the --
4 JUDGE KWON: It was not translated. I remember that. But in any
5 event, we will delete it, redact it.
7 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Was the area of Potocari the place where on or around the 20th of
11 April, 12 Arkan's men were killed, and was it also the area where
12 Judge Zekic was killed?
13 A. Yes, Your Honours. The area of Potocari, as I heard, was the
14 location where this fighting took place; however, how many people were
15 killed and who was killed, I don't know. I just heard that some Arkan
16 men were killed and that there were casualties.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm very sorry.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: On page 54, Your Honour, for the same reasons,
20 lines 9 and 10, refers to the date of the statement and the ERN, and that
21 statement was an exhibit in the prior case, a public exhibit, under
22 89(F), I believe.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Nicholls.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Isn't that under seal?
25 JUDGE KWON: Not in the case.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I beg your pardon.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You're not quite sure -- you were not quite sure whose bodies you
4 saw in relation to the hangar; is that correct?
5 A. While entering the hangar, I couldn't distinguish any bodies.
6 The only body I saw was one body that I saw when I was taken to the
7 school for the second time. That was the body of a neighbour of mine who
8 was killed there and when he was thrown into the lavatory that was in the
10 Q. Is it true - and we're not going to mention any family members of
11 Judge Zekic - that they were going to find out who was responsible for
12 his death and that he would be revenged?
13 A. Yes, Your Honours, I believe that that person came to the hall
14 and he asked who had killed his son. He said, "I'm really sorry, but 300
15 of you will have to pay for the death of my son."
16 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that somewhere Dzemo Hodzic, an
17 employee from Osijek, an employee from the draft office and a reserve
18 captain, was beaten up and put on the truck together with the dead
19 bodies. He was alive and he was shouting, "Brothers, run away, you are
20 going to be killed"; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, it is.
22 Q. Has this been recorded? Has this been investigated? Is there
23 any investigation, related material?
24 A. Your Honours, I don't know if this was recorded. We heard his
25 voice. We heard it coming from outside. And later on, people told us
1 that that man was on board the truck. Some people were shouting and he
2 was taken back to the hall. He was so badly beaten that he died as a
3 result, and then his body was taken out. I don't know whether to the
4 hangar or elsewhere.
5 Q. So you heard that from the outside?
6 A. Yes, because the windows were open and we could hear that voice
7 behind the hall and under the windows.
8 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Is it true that you were told that they
9 couldn't protect you until they cleansed Bratunac from all paramilitary
10 and that that was the reason for you being taken to Pale?
11 A. Your Honours, while we were in the hall, nobody told us that they
12 couldn't protect us from the paramilitary. The only thing that they told
13 us was when we were being taken out of the village, some of our uniformed
14 neighbours told us that there was a misunderstanding with the Arkan's
15 men, and that they would like to have us all in one place in order to
16 provide better protection. However, what was the background of all of
17 that, I don't know, and I invite everyone to draw their own conclusions
18 as they please.
19 Q. Thank you. Then on the 13th of May, was it the 13th of May or
20 which date, you were taken to the sports hall in Pale?
21 A. Yes, Your Honours, it was late in the evening. I don't remember.
22 It might have been around midnight. Soldiers entered the hall and told
23 us, "You are going to Pale. Lorries are coming. You are safe now. Act
24 correctly, don't try to escape, don't risk your lives. You are going to
25 Pale to be exchanged." And that is what happened.
1 Q. Thank you. Is it true that at Pale you didn't see anyone being
2 killed and that the policemen did not allow any soldiers to enter the
3 premises where the detainees were. That's what you stated; right?
4 A. Yes, and, if necessary, I can describe the situation. We were
5 just sometimes smacked on our way to the lavatory or maybe kicked, but
6 nothing major, no major beatings. We saw that there were bars on the
7 doors and the policemen were standing at the door. Whoever came to the
8 door, if he was a soldier, he would be prevented from entering.
9 Q. In another statement, or rather, (redacted)
10 you said that the army tried to establish some law and order --
11 intervened. This does not pertain to Pale. It was before that, to
12 establish some kind of order and to intervene; right?
13 A. I do not remember that. Maybe I did state that somewhere.
14 Perhaps that is what some Serbs had told us, that the army was trying to
15 establish some order.
16 Q. All right. Let us not go into closed session. I don't want us
17 to waste time. So, then, together with these 400 persons in Pale and 400
18 persons in Visoko -- so, the number of people who set out, returned as
19 well. You crossed over to the Muslim side. You called that an exchange.
20 Who crossed over to the Serb side from the Muslim side?
21 A. Your Honours, I don't know who crossed over. Once, while we were
22 in Pale, perhaps a day before the exchange, or perhaps two days before
23 that, but I think it was just one day, a soldier appeared at the door
24 screaming. I think he actually wanted to get in. He was shouting and
25 saying that if his brother who was captured in Sarajevo would be killed,
1 that he would kill all of us, that we should all pray for his life;
2 otherwise, we will not stay alive. So we came to that conclusion. No
3 one told us who we would be exchanged for. We came to the conclusion
4 that this exchange would take place and we were praying and hoping that
5 all of that took place in the best possible way.
6 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that they had to protect you from the
7 enraged people when you were boarding the buses. People were furious.
8 It wasn't only one soldier but there were lots of people who were very
9 angry at you?
10 A. That's true, Your Honours. We were not on buses. We were
11 transported from Pale in open trucks, that is to say, with no cover. And
12 we were tied by ropes, ten by ten of us. And the last, tenth, person
13 would be tied to the truck. From the buildings around us and from the
14 terraces there and also the masses of people who were around us, they
15 were throwing stones. A friend of mine next to me was hit by a can that
16 made his head bleed.
17 Q. Thank you. As for what the guards were telling you about the
18 attempts of the Serb leaders to get soldiers out, you spoke about that in
19 page -- in paragraph 77. I'm just saying that for the benefit of the
20 participants so that they know what I'm referring to. So you're sure
21 that 400 people left Pale and came to their destination. How many people
22 were there who were so enraged? Why were they so enraged? Did some of
23 their nearest and dearest get killed?
24 A. I don't know why people were enraged. I have no information
25 about any casualties in Pale. I just know that in Pale, as we entered
1 the hall, all of us from Bratunac were basically sitting on the floor.
2 And on the left-hand side, there were wooden benches. And on these
3 wooden benches, there were some other people. Later on, we found out
4 when we had some contact, they said that they were Muslims and that they
5 were captured around Pale.
6 Q. Thank you. Several times you kindly corrected yourself. You
7 said that you had heard that some people had been killed, but it would be
8 invaluable if you could tell us the names of these individuals. Did you
9 know Bajro Mahmutovic, the son of Sinahim [phoen] Mahmutovic?
10 A. Bajro Mahmutovic? I never mentioned him. I don't know. I don't
11 remember. There are quite a few Mahmutovics. But, Bajro, I don't know.
12 Q. All right. He's from Zanjevo. You don't know his son. You
13 don't know how he lost his life. You didn't hear anything about that?
14 A. Your Honours, I did not hear anything about that.
15 Q. All right. Then we're not going to go into that.
16 So you were brought to Semizovac -- or, rather, to the border, to
17 the front line between the Serb and Muslim forces near Visoko; right?
18 A. Yes, that's right, Your Honours. We stopped briefly at a
19 particular place where there were Serbs. I think it was called Ilijas.
20 There was some misunderstanding there, too. There were some verbal
21 attacks by civilians against our trucks. Since these were open trucks,
22 we heard the soldiers, the Serb soldiers, shouting that the border, the
23 separation line was closed. At one moment I even heard one of their
24 superiors tell them, "If there is a skirmish, try to fire single
25 gun-shots and economise with your ammunition."
1 Q. That is as you were getting closer to the border; right?
2 A. Yes, that's right.
3 Q. And then the separation line was crossed. The Serb lines were
4 crossed, and then the Muslim lines were crossed. Who mediated in this
5 entire effort and who facilitated it?
6 A. On the Serb side, it was the army. And when we entered the
7 peaceful area where we no longer heard the citizens, and, quite simply,
8 we didn't hear anybody or anything anymore, we were outside populated
9 areas, we were at a clearing, we were stopped there. I think I was in
10 the first truck. The trucks were open and I saw soldiers of the
11 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina, that is what their emblem
12 said, TO. They walked up to us and said that we should be careful, that
13 we were saved. They gave us some knives. They started cutting the rope.
14 We started getting off the trucks. And one by one, we walked in the
15 direction that we were told to go into for about 100 metres or so. We
16 kept on walking and we saw a lot of civilian vehicles, buses that
17 transported us to a hall in Visoko.
18 Q. Thank you. Nevertheless, Serb trucks did not cross Muslim lines.
19 You stopped on no man's land before the Muslim lines. That's where the
20 trucks stopped?
21 A. Well, I cannot be sure and say where we were exactly. Quite
22 simply, when the trucks stopped we heard people speaking outside. When
23 they opened the truck for us, we saw Serb soldiers and a few TO BH
24 soldiers as well.
25 Q. Thank you. So there was no incident involved, nobody opened fire
1 or anything like that?
2 A. That is correct, there was no incident there.
3 Q. And then you were put up at this hall in Visoko. Is that a
4 sports hall or what?
5 A. It's an enormous hall out of town. It was a sports hall and
6 there were still some flags outside. There was the Yugoslav flag. So we
7 knew that it was a sports hall.
8 Q. Is that where they made lists, where they wrote all of your
9 names, and does that list correspond to the list that was compiled in
10 Pale, and were there exactly 400 of you on those lists?
11 A. They wrote down our names there. Of course we were checked,
12 examined, assisted. I don't know what the list from Pale was, and I
13 don't know whether these two lists correspond to each other. I don't
14 know whether they coincide.
15 Q. Thank you. And then how long did you stay in the hall? How long
16 did you stay and how long did the others stay?
17 A. I was in the hall for a while. I could not stand on my feet. I
18 asked for medical assistance. Doctors came. They tried to help me,
19 quite simply. My back was painful, my kidneys. I was taken to an
20 infirmary. They tried to alleviate the pain. All of that was in vain
21 for about two or three hours -- two or three days, and then they decided
22 to transport me to the medical centre of Zenica, to the hospital there.
23 But they also said that there were some difficulties involved because
24 we'd have to cross an area that was held by Serbs, Serb lines, Serb
25 roadblocks, and it was for me to decide. And I could no longer take the
1 pain and I said, "I'm going no matter what."
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, are you coming to an end? How long do
3 you need?
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, as you say, Excellency,
5 whatever you say. Perhaps a few more questions?
6 JUDGE KWON: See if you could conclude in five minutes.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So did you cross these barricades and were you in an ambulance?
9 A. Yes, I was in an ambulance. I passed these barricades. I had
10 Red Cross papers on me stating that I had been exchanged, and they told
11 me that if anybody at the roadblock says anything, that I should just
12 keep silent, that I should say that I was exchanged, and that's the way
13 that it was. I think we stopped by the roadblock, they looked at that
14 piece of paper, and they let me go to Zenica, to the hospital there.
15 Q. Thank you. Was this a Serb officer or an ordinary soldier?
16 A. A Serb police manned these barricades, roadblocks, they wore Serb
17 police uniforms.
18 Q. Thank you. What about the rest, do you know how long they stayed
19 on in that hall in Visoko?
20 A. I think that these people stayed on for about a month. Others
21 stayed even longer in Visoko. I was in Zenica for a while. I heard that
22 my wife was in trouble in Tuzla, that she was at this school with our
23 children. We spoke on the telephone. She said that there wasn't enough
24 food, that it was very difficult. The doctors advised that I stayed in
25 the hospital longer. I heard that a relative of mine from Visoko was
1 prepared to go to Tuzla. And I asked the doctors to allow me to go and
2 spend the weekend in Visoko so that I would contact my relative and say
3 hello to my wife and children. I came to Visoko. When I was actually
4 supposed to go to Visoko there were no longer any roadblocks there.
5 Quite simply, the Bosnians took that area and the roadblocks, too. I
6 came to Visoko and I decided to walk to Tuzla together with my relative
7 and a group of people, and that is how we tried to get there. Sometimes
8 we got some transportation, like trucks, and in other places we didn't.
9 But we ultimately reached Tuzla after a night.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you know that your countrymen who remained in
11 Visoko returned towards Sarajevo, joined the unit in Ahatovici and many
12 of them were captured yet again, once again? Did anyone tell you about
13 that, what the fate of the others was; that is to say that they were
14 captured yet again, taken prisoner once again, these very same people?
15 A. I had not heard of that, that they were taken prisoner again.
16 How do I put this? The partner of a relative of mine said that he saw
17 his wife and children being killed, and then he joined the TO in Visoko
18 and set out towards Sarajevo, and I heard that he lost his life during
19 that breakthrough. As for taking people prisoner, Your Honours, I don't
20 know about that.
21 Q. Did you join the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina at a
22 particular point in time after leaving Zenica?
23 A. After arriving in Tuzla sometime in the autumn, late in the
24 autumn, I joined the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Perhaps at that time it
25 was called the army or was it still the TO? No one forced me to do that.
1 However, all of those people who joined in received food packages and
2 money, and since there was hunger in Tuzla, I volunteered to go. I left
3 that food and some money to my wife and children. I was mobilised
4 thereby. I was trained for a while. Then I was on guard duty in Teocak.
5 That was very brief. There was no fighting up there, no operations, no
6 shooting, just a bit of sporadic gun-fire. I received a telegram from my
7 command that my wife was very ill, that she had to undergo heart surgery.
8 I went back to Tuzla. (redacted)
13 Q. The last question, Witness, I don't have enough time to show all
14 these documents and perhaps you won't know much about some of them. My
15 last question is as follows: When you got off the Serb bus -- Serb
16 trucks near Visoko, were some Serbs loaded onto these trucks, or, rather,
17 did you see any Serbs crossing from the Muslim side to the Serb side?
18 A. Your Honours, no, I could not see anything. Actually, I did not
19 see anything. I didn't express any interest. As soon as I got off the
20 truck, I was told that I should go straight ahead. I walked down that
21 road straight ahead. I couldn't see anything.
22 Q. Is it correct that someone had told the people there that: If
23 you respect the president and the state, this convoy would be allowed to
24 pass through. If you respect your president and your state, you will
25 allow this convoy to get through?
1 A. Your Honours, I do not remember having heard that and I do not
2 know who it was who said that.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Witness. Thank you for your testimony and please
4 don't hold anything against me.
5 A. Thank you, too.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, if we could redact, please, line 65,
8 13, at the end, to 17. It's, again, a relatively unique little segment
9 that was --
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: -- explained before.
12 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Nicholls?
13 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour. Thank you.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 Sir, your testimony has now come to an end. On behalf of the
16 Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to thank you for your
17 coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go, but we will rise
18 all together.
19 We'll take a break for 25 minutes and resume at ten to 6.00.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.
21 [The witness withdrew]
22 --- Recess taken at 5.24 p.m.
23 --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.
24 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, Ms. Edgerton.
25 Before we begin to hear the evidence of the next witness, his
1 evidence, there are a few matters to deal with.
2 Let me see. First of all, the Chamber is seized of the accused's
3 motion for eighth suspension of proceedings: Witness KDZ-490 filed on
4 23rd of August, 2011, and the Prosecution's response to that motion filed
5 today. While, in the Chamber's decision on accused's motion for
6 modification of protective measures, Witnesses KDZ-490 and KDZ-492 dated
7 25th of March, 2010, the Chamber was satisfied that delayed disclosure of
8 KDZ-490's identity until 21 days prior to the witness's testimony was
9 justified. The Chamber acknowledges that the accused will require
10 additional time to consider the volume of Rule 66(A)(ii) material
11 disclosed with respect to the delayed disclosure Witness KDZ-490.
12 However, the Chamber is not convinced that a suspension of
13 proceedings is necessary to allow the accused and his team to complete
14 this review. The material can be reviewed on a rolling basis and any
15 material the accused and his team have been unable to consider can be
16 reviewed during the scheduled break in proceedings from 10th of October
17 to 14th of October, 2011. Further, the Chamber does not consider that
18 calling the witness after 17th of October, 2011, would adversely impact
19 on the protective measure of delayed disclosure granted to him. The
20 Chamber therefore denies the motion but instructs the Prosecution not to
21 call the witness, KDZ-490, before 17th of October, 2011.
22 Then I will deal with two matters emanating from yesterday's
23 hearing. Firstly, the Chamber refers to Mr. Robinson's motion made
24 during yesterday's hearing to strike out para 12 of Mr. Gusic's
25 amalgamated statement which bears exhibit number P3196. Having heard the
1 parties, the Chamber is satisfied that the additional evidence provided
2 yesterday by the witness in relation to paragraph 12 provides sufficient
3 clarification to the information therein, and, therefore, that the
4 exclusion of paragraph 12 is not warranted. The request is, therefore,
5 denied. However, in this regard the Chamber notes that, as with all
6 determinations of admissibility, the weight and probative value, if any,
7 of any admitted evidence falls to be assessed when the evidence has been
8 heard in its totality.
9 Secondly, with respect to the admissibility of 1D4092, the
10 Chamber notes that, except for the cover page, it is not a document
11 produced by a member of the European Parliament; rather, it is a
12 "dossier" compiling information on crimes against Serbs gathered by two
13 individuals, Stojsavljevic and Gerratt. The witness was shown a few
14 pages of the document, including the one where his name appears.
15 However, he did not provide much information about his position on the
16 contents of the document. As such, the Chamber will not admit the
18 Finally, the Chamber is seized of the Prosecution's request for
19 leave to add documents to the 65 ter list, filed on 2nd of August, 2011,
20 as part of its 92 ter notification of submission of written evidence for
21 Witness KDZ-033. The Chamber has reviewed each of the documents and
22 finds that each is relevant and of sufficient importance to justify their
23 late addition to the 65 ter exhibit list. Additionally, because each is
24 indispensable and inseparable from KDZ-033's amalgamated witness
25 statement, the Chamber finds that the Prosecution has shown good cause
1 for its request.
2 Finally, the Chamber notes that the accused did not respond to
3 the request and the Chamber is satisfied that the amendments at this
4 stage of the proceedings provide the accused sufficient notice and do not
5 adversely affect his ability to prepare for trial. The Chamber thus
6 grants leave for the Prosecution to add Rule 65 ter numbers 23197 to
7 23209, 23211 to 23218, 23221, and 23222 to its 65 ter exhibit list.
8 Unless there are other matters, we will bring in the next
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wanted to ask --
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm wondering, Your Excellencies,
13 would it be acceptable, given that this is the seventh witness that I'm
14 examining this week and I cannot complete my cross-examination today,
15 would it be acceptable that we hear the witness in examination-in-chief
16 and that I start and finish my cross-examination on Monday next week?
17 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any observation, Ms. Edgerton?
18 Mr. Tieger?
19 MR. TIEGER: I understand the impact on the schedule would be
20 minimal, given the time of the day and the length of the
21 examination-in-chief. We don't have any adverse position on that.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
23 Yes, we'll accommodate your request, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: Let's bring in -- so, Ms. Edgerton, please call your
1 next witness.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, while we're bringing in the
4 witness, I just wanted to let you know I won't be here on Monday, as I
5 indicated to the Chamber, and my apologies for that.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. President.
8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President, I think I took this for
9 granted, but I assume that the Defence would be prepared to still provide
10 the documents they intend to use in cross-examination once the
11 examination-in-chief is completed, pursuant to the Rule. I -- except --
12 maybe there's further preparation, there may be some additional documents
13 but [Overlapping speakers] --
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I see the nodding of Mr. Robinson.
15 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we'll do that.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE KWON: Good evening, sir.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good evening.
19 JUDGE KWON: Could you kindly take the solemn declaration.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: IBRO OSMANOVIC
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, sir. Please be seated and make yourself
1 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
3 Examination by Ms. Edgerton:
4 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Witness. Could you give us your full name,
6 A. My name is Ibro Osmanovic.
7 Q. Mr. Osmanovic, you have no problem hearing me in a language you
9 A. No problem.
10 Q. So then, Mr. Osmanovic, I'd like to ask you, do you remember
11 meeting representatives from this Tribunal for the first time in 1994 and
12 giving a statement to them about what happened in Vlasenica to you and
13 your family during the war?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And since that time, you've testified here at the Tribunal about
16 these things in five cases, and I'll list them: The Dragan Nikolic case
17 in 1995; the Dusan Tadic case in 1996; the Slobodan Milosevic case in
18 2003; the Momcilo Krajisnik case in 2004; and the Stanisic and Zupljanin
19 case in 2010. Do I have those right?
20 A. Yes, you do.
21 Q. And in Bosnia in 2009, you also gave evidence to the state court
22 there in the trial of Predrag Basta; is that correct?
23 A. Predrag Bastah with an H at the end.
24 Q. And then -- and recently, you've listened to audio recordings of
25 those proceedings and re-read the transcript of your evidence in the
1 Bastah trial; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And then the day before yesterday, on 23rd of August, you
4 listened to an interpreter read back to you another statement
5 consolidating all this evidence you have given into one chronologically
6 organised statement; is that also correct?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And when you did that, you made some clarifications, you
9 corrected some things, and you gave some additional information which was
10 then written down in this statement, didn't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. So then after hearing that statement and taking into account the
13 changes that you made, are you satisfied that it's an accurate record of
14 what happened to you during the war as far as you can remember?
15 A. Yes, I am.
16 Q. And if you were asked all those same questions that you were
17 asked during the first interview in 1994 and all the earlier proceedings,
18 would you give the same answers?
19 A. Yes, I would.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Then, Your Honours, given that the witness's
21 amalgamated statement of 23 August is 65 ter number 90266, could that be
22 the next Prosecution exhibit, please?
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P3212.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
1 I'll go to the summary now of that written evidence.
2 This witness was born and raised in Vlasenica, working as a
3 factory worker and a volunteer firefighter.
4 Around 22 April 1992, the town was taken over by the JNA Novi Sad
5 Corps, assisted by local armed Serbs. Overnight the JNA moved in and by
6 early morning these combined Serb forces had occupied municipality and
7 other buildings, services, even factories. The JNA brought in armoured
8 vehicles. The witness saw four tanks near the local stadium. Early that
9 morning, a police vehicle announced via a loud-speaker that all weapons
10 must be surrendered by 9.00 a.m. and the JNA would use force on those who
11 failed to comply. Weapons were surrendered.
12 A curfew was established. Non-Serbs were arrested by Serbian
13 forces, and freedom of movement was restricted. People could not move
14 about the town or leave the municipality without passes issued by the
15 Serbian Crisis Staff. The witness's mother requested a pass to leave but
16 was told it would only be issued if she signed a form voluntarily
17 surrendering her rights to her home. She refused to sign the surrender
18 form and never received a pass to leave Vlasenica. She remained in her
19 apartment until she was taken to Susica camp.
20 The JNA left Vlasenica around --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the Prosecutor
22 please slow down a little bit. Thank you.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, my apologies.
24 The JNA left Vlasenica around 17 or 18 May of 1992, leaving their
25 equipment behind for local Serb forces, who began attacks on Muslim
1 villages. The witness learned from survivors that the villages of
2 Pijuci, Dzamdzici and Bare were shelled and burned. Villagers were
3 killed in the attacks.
4 On 22 May 1992, the witness was arrested and detained with other
5 Muslim men in the police station at Vlasenica. This began a period of
6 detention that spanned 14 months and across four different facilities
7 listed in Schedule C of the indictment in this case. From the police
8 station, the witness went to the municipality prison in Vlasenica, Susica
9 camp, and finally Batkovic, in Bijeljina, where he ultimately remained
10 until he was exchanged in July 1993.
11 In the Vlasenica police station, the witness learned from other
12 detainees about the attack on the Muslim village of Zaklopaca by Serb
13 forces. He speaks of the conditions in the jail, constant beatings of he
14 and the other prisoners -- pardon me, of the conditions in the police
15 station. Constant beatings of he and the other prisoners, torture, and
16 killings perpetrated by members of the police forces, among others.
17 At the municipality prison, the experience was much the same. In
18 the prison, which would normally accommodate 50 people, there were about
19 150 detainees, all Muslims. Prisoners were taken out by Serb forces. A
20 group of just over 30 men, 20 of whom were from the witness's own cell,
21 were taken away on 2nd of June. The witness knows of only three
22 survivors. While detained, the witness and other prisoners were taken
23 under guard to the Muslim settlement of Drum where they buried the bodies
24 of 22 civilian men. All but one had a single gun-shot wound between the
1 The witness was moved to Susica, a facility commanded by
2 Dragan Nikolic. He estimates there were more than 500 people detained
3 there. Those he knew were Muslim. The witness recounts his experiences
4 and those of the other detainees of the desperate conditions at Susica.
5 There was no hygiene. Prisoners were constantly maltreated. He
6 speaks -- the witness speaks of beatings, torture, and killings at the
7 hands of Nikolic himself, guards, and members of the Serb police forces.
8 He saw some of his fellow prisoners die after being beaten. He saw
9 Nikolic beat a detainee so badly that person begged to be killed. He saw
10 Nikolic put his bayonet in the mouth of one prisoner, and on another
11 occasion saw Nikolic put his pistol in the mouth of another detainee;
12 Nikolic then cocked the gun and pulled the trigger.
13 The witness was moved to Batkovic at the end of June 1992. His
14 younger brother, also detained at Susica, was kept behind, a camp
15 official told him as a guarantee in case the witness ran away. He never
16 saw his brother again. There were close to 3.000 prisoners from -- in
17 Batkovic from locations all across Bosnia and Herzegovina, non-Serbs.
18 There, again, the witness gives evidence of beatings, torture, and
19 killings of the detainees by the Serb guards. A special group of
20 prisoners was particularly singled out for beating and mistreatment.
21 Under the eyes of Serb guards, three non-Serb detainees also took part in
22 brutalities against the prisoners. Of the witness's immediate family,
23 only two remain alive today. He's still searching for 33 members of his
24 extended family from Vlasenica.
25 And that's the summary of the written evidence.
1 Q. Now, Mr. Osmanovic, I'd actually like to go to only one document,
2 65 ter number 11294, if we could call that up, please. You referred to
3 that in your amalgamated statement at paragraph 157, which is your
4 evidence about this document excerpted from your testimony in the
5 Stanisic and Zupljanin case. It's a photocopy of a list of persons
6 detained at Batkovic, stamped and certified on 29 July 1999 by the
7 Bijeljina lower court as being identical to the original. We could
8 display the first page of this document in English, and after that,
9 because this is a name list, I don't think we need to go to the
11 Mr. Witness, did you have a chance to have a detailed look at
12 this document yesterday?
13 A. Yes, I did.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go first over to e-court page 138 of this
17 Q. Can you have a look, Mr. Osmanovic, at entry 21. Is that your
19 A. Yes, that's my name.
20 Q. Now I'd like to take you to a few pages in this document that
21 you've looked at. If we could go back over to page 3, starting at the
22 front of the document. And while we wait for that, Mr. Witness, do you
23 remember at paragraphs 156, 164, 170, and 171 of your statement referring
24 to someone by the name of Fadil Alihodzic as being one of the group of
25 special prisoners singled out for constant beatings at Batkovic?
1 A. Yes, I do, that's Fadil Alihodzic, son of Ismet.
2 Q. Could you have a look at entry number 38, please, on this page
3 and tell us then if you recognise the name there.
4 A. Number 38, Ismet Alihodzic -- Fadil Alihodzic, son of Ismet,
5 brought from Vlasenica, and he was in this group intended for the
6 beatings, as they used to refer to it as a special group.
7 Q. Thank you. Now, in your statement at paragraph 85, you referred
8 to someone with the surname Boric, where you noted that only three men
9 survived from that group of people that was taken out of the Vlasenica
10 prison one night by Predrag Bastah and --
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, on what, Mr. Karadzic?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If it's being properly translated
14 to me, I think that the Prosecutor said: You know that only a few
15 survived. I'm afraid that's a leading question.
16 JUDGE KWON: I think she was referring to the para 89 and the
17 witness noted only three men survived.
18 Shall we take a look at para 85.
19 "Out of this group of men, I found only three of them at Susica
20 camp ..."
21 Is this the passage you are referring to?
22 MS. EDGERTON: Yes it is, indeed, and I thought I had got the
23 paragraph numbering wrong, but I see I didn't.
24 May I continue?
25 JUDGE KWON: Did he say that only these three survived?
1 MS. EDGERTON: The second-to-last sentence says -- the
2 second-to-last sentence says:
3 "I found only three of them at Susica camp."
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 MS. EDGERTON: I misspoke, Your Honour. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 MS. EDGERTON:
8 Q. Mr. Witness, in paragraph 85, you said you found only three of
9 those men at Susica camp. Now, I wonder if we could, please, go to
10 page 13 of this document, 11294.
11 JUDGE KWON: The previous list of Batkovic camp, 11294.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Page 13. Could we just keep with the original
13 B/C/S version of that document, please. Is that e-court page 13? Thank
15 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to entry number 8, Mr. Witness.
16 Do you recognise the name there?
17 A. Nezir Boric, son of Ibro, used to live in Vlasenica. Upon my
18 arrival at Susica, he was one of the persons that I have found there as
19 one of the survivors.
20 Q. Did you learn what happened to the men in that group that were
21 taken out on the 2nd of June?
22 A. Of the three that I found at Susica camp, I heard that the bus
23 with the rest of them proceeded towards Debelo Brdo. After the war, they
24 were found and properly buried in the first burial that took place in
25 Vlasenica and those were the people from that very same group.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Can we move on, please, to page 53, entries number
3 20 and 23. Thank you.
4 Q. There, Mr. Witness, we see the names Hajrudin and
5 Hasim Ferhatovic. And I note in your statement you referred to Hajrudin
6 and Hasim Ferhatovic as two brothers who were directed to bury bodies of
7 two persons who died at Susica. Are these the same persons?
8 A. Yes, they are.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go over to page 94, please.
11 Q. Entry number 11, we see the name of Medin Kolarevic, also from
12 Vlasenica. Now, Mr. Witness, at paragraph 139 of your statement, you
13 talk about the killing of Muharem Kolarevic at Susica camp and refer to
14 his son named Medin, saying he was also at Susica and sent to Batkovic.
15 Is this the same person?
16 A. Muharem Kolarevic was killed at Susica. His son, Medin, was with
17 him there at Susica. And after that, the two of us went together to
19 Q. Based on the father's name and date of birth that you see on this
20 document, do you find this to be the same Medin Kolarevic you refer to in
21 your statement?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, in your statement, at paragraph 125, you refer to someone by
24 the name of Reuf Rasidagic, who was beaten by Dragan Nikolic five times
25 over five days. Now, do you remember that?
1 A. Yes, I do.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Could we then go over to page 151 of this
3 document, please, entry number 18.
4 Q. Do you recognise the name you see there?
5 A. Yes, Reuf Rasidagic, son of Rifet, is the person whom
6 Dragan Nikolic beat as soon as he arrived at the Susica camp. And he
7 asked me to tell you when was he last in --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat. The
9 interpreters didn't hear.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Osmanovic, the interpreters were not able to
11 hear you. Could you kindly repeat your answer, please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Reuf Rasidagic, son
13 of Rifet, is the person beat by Dragan Nikolic at Susica camp every day.
14 He asked him to lie to him and tell him when was he last in China.
15 Rasidagic asked him to kill him and the response Nikolic gave was: A
16 bullet for you would be too costly because it costs us 3 German marks.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Now, you also talked in your statement about a gypsy from Zenica
19 by the name of Dzemal Zahirovic at paragraph 122, 170, and 171. Could we
20 go in this list to page 189 and look at entry number 3.
21 Do you recognise the name you see at entry number 3,
22 Mr. Osmanovic?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And what name is that?
25 A. Dzemal Zahirovic of Zenica.
1 Q. Is it the same person you referred to in your statement?
2 A. Yes, the same person.
3 Q. Now, also in your statement, you described Batkovic as holding
4 groups of detainees from Kalesija, Vlasenica, Koraj, Zvornik, Brcko,
5 Brezevo Polje, Trnovo, Divic, Bosanski Samac, Sanski Most, Rogatica, and
6 Bijeljina, and we find all those names in paragraph 153. In reviewing
7 this list, did you see groups of people from these locations that you had
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. In your statement you talked about a group of 512 prisoners
11 coming from Batkovic from Manjaca after it was closed down sometime in
12 December 1992 or January 1993, and that's at paragraph 154. Now, in that
13 regard, I'd just like to go over to page 127 of this document.
14 Now, do you see on this page a list of people who arrived at
15 Batkovic from Kljuc, Prijedor, Sanski Most, and Kotor Varos on -- all on
16 the same day, on 13 December 1992?
17 A. I do.
18 Q. Does that refresh your memory as to the date when prisoners from
19 Manjaca might have arrived at Batkovic?
20 A. We returned from Lopare, from where they had taken us to work
21 just before the new year, around the 19th of December. These people were
22 already at Batkovic camp when I arrived. When they left -- when I left
23 they weren't there. They were in a separate hangar. They slept in a
24 separate hangar. Only the people who were giving out food had access to
25 the other hangar, and from them I heard that 512 of them had arrived.
1 Q. So now based on everything that we've talked about today and your
2 review of this document, would you say that the list is an accurate one,
3 Mr. Osmanovic?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Could we tender, then, 11294, please, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3213, Your Honours.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. Now, I'd just like to ask you some things about your family.
10 You've mentioned your younger brother, Hajrudin, in your statement at
11 paragraphs 55, 100, 148, 150, and 193. And you spoke -- referred to some
12 of your other family members. In paragraph 193, you spoke about your
13 older brother, who you said was killed on 22 September 1992, who remains
14 missing. Can you tell us his name?
15 A. Hakija was his name.
16 Q. How do you know he -- how did you learn he was killed on
17 22 September 1992?
18 A. When the war ended, his wife, who is an ethnic Serb, came to
19 visit my mother and she said that in September 1992, on the
20 22nd of September, 1992, he was killed. Unfortunately, we haven't found
21 him yet. We don't know where he is.
22 Q. Now, in paragraphs 100 and 193 of your written evidence, you
23 spoke about what happened to your younger sister, who you said was 16 in
24 1992. Could you tell us her name?
25 A. Ferida.
1 Q. Now, you said her burnt remains were located at Pelemis, and I'd
2 just like to know do you have any idea how far Pelemis is from Susica?
3 A. About 15 kilometres.
4 Q. And what is Pelemis, do you know?
5 A. Pelemis is a Serb settlement where there was a four-year
6 elementary school.
7 Q. Is it still in Vlasenica municipality?
8 A. No, that belongs to the municipality of Sekovici.
9 Q. Did you learn how your younger sister, who you said had remained,
10 in your written evidence, at Susica, did you learn how she came or how
11 her remains came to be in the location of Pelemis?
12 A. When I arrived from Batkovic camp, I found Sabic Delva, a lady
13 who was a neighbour of mine. She said that she was together with her and
14 they were taken off the bus when they were being transported to Kladanj.
15 Delva is an older woman who was released and my sister stayed there.
16 When the mass grave at Pelemis was exhumed 7 and a half per cent of my
17 sister's bones were found; the rest were burned, unfortunately.
18 Q. Did your neighbour tell you who took she and your sister off the
20 A. The Serb army.
21 Q. Are you aware, apart from your neighbour, of any other survivors
22 from Pelemis?
23 A. I don't know of anyone else who had survived.
24 Q. Finally, do you think, Mr. Osmanovic, you could put into words
25 for the Judges how losing the family members you talk about in your
1 statement and the members of your extended family and your experiences
2 being detained have affected you?
3 A. It cannot be described in words. It is very hard. You stay all
4 alone. There is no one to open the door for you. You're picking through
5 bones, hoping that you'd at least find that. I managed to find my
6 brother's head 25 kilometres away from his body. His throat had been
7 slit, and I found only 7 and a half per cent of my sister's bones,
8 nothing more than that. It is very hard to describe this in words.
9 However, I hope that there will be justice. I am not the one to mete out
10 justice, but I hope that justice will catch up with those who did this.
11 Q. Thank you. Mr. Osmanovic, I don't have any other questions for
13 MS. EDGERTON: And, Your Honours, I'd like now to tender the
14 associated exhibits listed in our final notification of yesterday, 24
15 August. Some of those, Your Honour, were the subject of an order you
16 issued in relation to KDZ-033 at the beginning of these proceedings.
17 JUDGE KWON: Any objections, Mr. Robinson?
18 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE KWON: Among the suggested associated exhibits, can I draw
20 your attention to 65 ter 14240 and 00584 which were discussed in
21 para 115. If you go to his -- para 115 in his amalgamated statement, he
23 "Even though they are dated a few days before I arrived there,
24 the number of detainees listed as in this document is consistent with
25 what I remember seeing when I arrived at Susica."
1 But if you look at those documents, those documents do not
2 contain such information at all. I wonder, there is a mistake. Shall we
3 upload 1584, for example.
4 MS. EDGERTON: There may have been.
5 JUDGE KWON: 00584.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Paragraph 2 of this document, Your Honours, refers
7 to 640 prisoners.
8 JUDGE KWON: 14240.
9 MS. EDGERTON: Also referring, Your Honour, to 620, which is
10 crossed out, and 640, handwritten, prisoners. And --
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 MS. EDGERTON: -- the witness's comments, Your Honour, of course
13 confine to the number of prisoners being reported.
14 JUDGE KWON: And in relation to other associated exhibits, I
15 noted that you added some new information recently in the final
17 MS. EDGERTON: Correct.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Very well. They will all be admitted and
19 given numbers in due course.
20 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Osmanovic, given the time, we are minded to rise
22 for this week. And since we are not going to sit tomorrow, we'll resume
23 on Monday next week, 29th, at 9.00, but probably you were explained by
24 the Victims and Witnesses Section. Please do not discuss about your
25 testimony with anybody else during those -- during that break. Do you
1 understand, Mr. Osmanovic?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE KWON: Please have a nice weekend.
4 9.00 on Monday morning.
5 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.43 p.m.,
6 to be reconvened on Monday, the 29th day of
7 August, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.