1 Friday, 2 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Yes, Mr. Robinson?
6 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, thank you, Mr. President. Good morning.
7 Mr. President, this is our 57th motion for finding of disclosure
8 violation and for remedial measures. The provision that in this instance
9 was violated was paragraph L of your order on the procedure for the
10 conduct of the trial which provides that the final amalgamated witness
11 statement shall be provided to the Trial Chamber and the accused at least
12 48 hours prior to the testimony of the witness.
13 There have been three violations of this rule. The first being
14 with the witness Suad Dzafic who testified yesterday on the
15 1st of September, and his amalgamated statement, final amalgamated
16 statement was not delivered to us until the evening of 31 August. We let
17 that go because we thought perhaps it was an isolated incident. However,
18 last night, we received the final amalgamated statements for the two
19 witnesses who are proposed to testify today, KDZ-606, which was sent by
20 e-mail about 5.35 p.m., which Dr. Karadzic also received after 5 p.m. at
21 the Detention Unit. And which contains comments on 13 documents which
22 had not previously been included in the draft amalgamated statement.
23 The third witness, Sefik Hurko, we received -- it was sent about
24 8.35 last night. I have to admit I didn't check my e-mail until this
25 morning, but Dr. Karadzic still hasn't received that amalgamated
1 statement, that final amalgamated statement, and it contains new
2 information about new incidents and some additional significant
3 information about incidents that had been previously described by the
4 witness. And so we are asking that you make a finding that there has
5 been a violation on three occasions of the requirements for disclosure,
6 and as a remedy for that, that you postpone the testimony of the next two
7 witnesses until Monday, so Dr. Karadzic can have an adequate time to
8 prepare. We realise that this situation is caused mostly by the pace of
9 the witnesses at this phase of the trial, because we are hearing a lot of
10 short witnesses and we understand it's difficult for the Prosecution,
11 even with all their resources, to keep up with this pace, and, of course,
12 it's extremely difficult for us with about one tenth of those resources.
13 But, in any event, the problem appears to be that the witnesses are not
14 being brought to The Hague in sufficient time to comply with your order,
15 and we think that that problem needs to be addressed and remedied not
16 only for these witnesses but so that the problem doesn't arise in the
18 In particular, in our Defence case, we anticipate that the
19 witnesses will need to arrive significantly in advance of their testimony
20 in order to -- for us to properly prepare and disclose the material that
21 will be necessary and so we ask the Chamber to make a finding that there
22 has been violation to postpone the testimony of the two witnesses until
23 Monday, and to make whatever arrangements the Chamber can make to ensure
24 that in the future witnesses are brought to The Hague sufficiently in
25 advance so that the problem doesn't recur. Thank you.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor?
2 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. First of all, I'd like to
3 treat each of the three witnesses that Mr. Robinson has identified in
4 turn. In respect of Suad Dzafic, we did file on the 14th of July, 2011,
5 a draft amalgamated statement as an appendix to the notification in
6 respect of Rule 92 ter for that witness. There is no requirement in
7 Your Honour's order for the conduct of trial that the Prosecution should
8 file a draft amalgamated statement. It's something we do to assist the
9 Defence in their preparation for cross-examination of the witness. The
10 draft amalgamated statement for Mr. Dzafic was practically identical to
11 the final signed version with the addition of some comments on some
12 payment lists which had been admitted in evidence already.
13 Now, in respect of the second witness, that is -- if we can deal
14 with KDZ-606, a draft of the amalgamated statement of that witness was
15 filed on the 25th of August, 2011. The draft amalgamated statement
16 highlighted references to nine additional documents, four of them are
17 simply photographs of sites of mosques in Rogatica, with the specific
18 indication that we intended to show these documents to the witness during
19 proofing. And the rest of the additional information and the final
20 amalgamated statement are corrections of a minor nature made by the
21 witness during proofing yesterday. As Your Honours are aware, the
22 proofing for that witness was slightly postponed due to illness on his
24 Let's deal now with the third witness and that is Sefik Hurko. A
25 draft amalgamated statement was filed as an appendix to his 92 ter
1 notification on the 16th of August, 2011. Along with that draft
2 amalgamated statement, we notified the Defence of a number of documents
3 that we might discuss with the witness. Of those documents, we selected
4 three which made their way into the final amalgamated statement. So just
5 to emphasise, the final amalgamated statement simply contains comments on
6 three documents listed in the notification filed on the 16th of August.
7 Other changes in the statement do refer to Rajko Kusic's
8 involvement, for example, in Rasadnik, a scheduled detention facility,
9 Rajko Kusic's role in transferring the witness to a high school in
10 Rogatica, another scheduled detention facility. And Rajko Kusic's role
11 in the cleansing of Rogatica is well heralded in that statement. The
12 witness identifies him as being one of the principal players in Rogatica
13 in 1992. I want to emphasise again that we are doing what we can within
14 the resource constraints of the Tribunal to give the Defence as much
15 advance notification as we reasonably can so that they do have draft
16 amalgamated statements which really cover 90 to 95 per cent of what the
17 witness is going to say, and we are going above and beyond what we are
18 required to do by an order on procedure for conduct of trial.
19 Now, in respect of Mr. Robinson's concern that there have been
20 new comments made by the witness on specific areas --
21 JUDGE KWON: I will come to that. Mr. Gaynor, what we ordered in
22 our previous order referred to, that is 8th of October, 2009, order, was
23 that the Prosecution should provide the accused and the Trial Chamber the
24 final amalgamated witness statement at least 48 hours prior to the
25 testimony of the witness. That does not mean that it is always okay to
1 provide that document, statement, two days before. In the same
2 paragraph, we said the amalgamated statement shall be prepared well in
3 advance of the witness arriving in The Hague to testify. Although our
4 order didn't refer to the draft statement, I take it the final witness's
5 amalgamated statement should have been provided at the time when you
6 usually provide with the draft in our past experience.
7 Do you have any observation to that, Mr. Gaynor?
8 MR. GAYNOR: I do, Mr. President. We -- in many cases, we
9 provide the draft amalgamated statement to the Defence weeks in advance.
10 Now, obviously we haven't yet had a position to confirm that with the
11 witness. The resources don't permit witnesses to be brought to The Hague
12 to review the statement and then to go back to their home, their country
13 of origin, and then to return for testimony. So what we do is we send a
14 draft amalgamated statement which has been prepared well in advance of
15 the witness arriving in The Hague to testify, to the Defence. Now the
16 disclosure of the draft is not required under paragraph L. If
17 Your Honour is asking: Did we comply with the obligation to provide a
18 final amalgamated statement 48 hours before start of testimony, the
19 answer is no, but I'm attempting to put the sequence of events into
20 context to indicate that we have done a considerable amount to facilitate
21 the Defence's preparation of cross-examination.
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Just before I hear from you, from both
23 of you, I have a question for Mr. Robinson. So the Defence position is
24 that had there not been an addition to the draft statement, you wouldn't
25 have objected to the belated disclosure, if the only change is the
1 witness's signature?
2 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct. I think that we would have
3 considered what we had been provided with earlier to be the final
4 amalgamated statement if it was only the matter of the signature.
5 JUDGE KWON: So one solution one can think of is that to order
6 the Prosecution to lead the witness live in relation to whatever is
7 contained in the -- added to the previous draft statement.
8 MR. ROBINSON: I think that can be a solution for Witness KDZ-606
9 because the only differences is his comments on documents that are sought
10 to be admitted as associated exhibits, so if those are led live then
11 I think that we would be in the same position, essentially, as if we have
12 the draft -- there's not many changes to the draft that we received a
13 long time ago. But for the other witness, for Mr. Hurko, there is
14 disclosure of new elements that I think -- first of all, and
15 Dr. Karadzic hasn't seen that statement. That's a Rule 66(A)(ii)
16 statement now because it's not only amalgamating what was earlier
17 disclosed but it contains new elements, and, therefore, we think that we
18 would be prejudiced by the fact that new elements have been added to a
19 statement we just received on the eve of the witness's testimony.
20 JUDGE KWON: Let's put that aside for the moment because we are
21 not in the position to say anything unless the Chamber is also able to
22 see that document in relation to Rule 66(A)(ii).
23 MR. ROBINSON: You should definitely see that document. I think
24 it was maybe copied to Chambers when it was sent to us last night. But
25 if you see there is a track-change version of that statement. And once
1 you see it, you'll see exactly what is at stake.
2 JUDGE KWON: And my last question for Mr. Gaynor is this:
3 Whether it is possible on the part of the Prosecution, instead of trying
4 to incorporate everything witness adds to the existing draft statement,
5 that it leads those evidence live as a kind of change to the previous
6 statement when the witness is in the courtroom.
7 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. I would be willing to do that. Mr. President,
8 can I just point out at this stage that the tracked changes version which
9 I provided to the Defence, there are a couple of paragraphs, four
10 paragraphs, which simply moved position in the statement. Now, due to
11 the way the tracked changes operate, they appear to be new paragraphs.
12 They are simply moved from one part of the statement to the other, but,
13 yes, to answer Your Honour's question, I am willing to lead the new parts
15 JUDGE KWON: And has it been your practice that when you provide
16 a final amalgamated statement that has been changed in one way or another
17 from the previous one, you provide a track-change version -- has been
18 practised all the time?
19 MR. GAYNOR: Not always. In respect of these two witnesses, 606
20 and Sefik Hurko, we have provided documents showing the new material.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. I offer the parties to add whatever they
22 want to say in addition to what has been already said.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I think the only thing I would like to
24 emphasise at the end, Mr. President, is that as a trial lawyer, myself,
25 I just absolutely cannot see how Dr. Karadzic could be expected to
1 cross-examine Mr. Hurko without seeing that statement, and I invite you
2 to look at it. And I'll just give you an example: The witness had
3 previously described beatings that he and his father endured, and for the
4 first time in his statement, in this statement we received last night, he
5 acknowledges that he was found to be in possession of a number of bullets
6 and a -- his father had a pistol and that was the reason they were
7 beaten. That's just one example. Another example is a description of
8 sexual misconduct at one of the facilities. He's given -- recounted a
9 completely new incident that had not been disclosed, that we were not
10 aware of before. So those are two examples of the new material that's
11 contained in that. So I know that you want to move forward and not delay
12 the trial, but in this particular instance, besides the violation of the
13 Rule itself, there is prejudice because of Dr. Karadzic's not having seen
14 that material. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just add one word from the
16 point of view of drafts?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can read one statement, only
19 once. That's my rhythm. If I get a draft and if I study the draft, and
20 then if I get the final version of the amalgamated statement, that is two
21 readings and I don't have time for that. Hence, the draft would not
22 really help me much. I need 48 hours to get the final version.
23 Technically speaking, that's the way it is. Mr. Robinson simply doesn't
24 know that because I've never told him. Thank you.
25 JUDGE KWON: I have a similar experience on my part because we
1 give it a read before -- well in advance of the draft whether those
2 alleged associated exhibits are part -- are forming indispensable and
3 inseparable parts of the witness statement. And then I find very many --
4 recently new passages added in the final amalgamated statement in
5 relation to those exhibits. So I had to compare, just once again, just
6 the day before the witness's evidence. That's why I asked whether there
7 is -- a track-change versions have been offered in the previous time.
8 Unless you have anything to add, Mr. Gaynor?
9 [Prosecution counsel confer]
10 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. I'd simply want to make the point when we
11 balance the advantages and disadvantages, that in our submission, it is,
12 in fact, advantageous for the Defence to have in writing, prior to the
13 witness's testimony, new evidence which he wishes to give, as opposed to
14 a situation where the witness might be called live by the Prosecution and
15 the new material arrives literally in the courtroom while we are all
16 listening to that material. So that is one factor to take into account
17 when we add material to a statement which is then disclosed to the
18 Defence. That was my only additional observation.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, if I could just mention that we
20 would still expect that material to be disclosed through a proofing note
21 even if it's not in the amalgamated statement.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will rise for 15 minutes to consider
24 this matter.
25 --- Break taken at 9.22 a.m.
1 --- On resuming at 9.43 a.m.
2 JUDGE KWON: Having reviewed the submission of the parties, and
3 giving -- having given careful consideration to the matter, the Chamber's
4 conclusions are as follows:
5 In relation to KDZ-606, we order the Prosecution to lead the
6 witness live in relation to the information which has been added to the
7 previous draft amalgamated statement. Given that the added information
8 is not that significant, and also having considered the submission of
9 Mr. Robinson on this matter, the Chamber is of the view that the Defence
10 is able to cross-examine the witness today.
11 In relation to Mr. Hurko, while the Chamber will order the
12 Prosecution lead the witness live in relation to the added information,
13 as in the case of KDZ-606, the Chamber postpones the cross-examination of
14 this witness to Monday, given the size and scope of added information, as
15 well as the alleged 66(A)(ii) violation which will be considered by the
16 Chamber separately.
17 For the future conduct of the trial, the Chamber very much
18 encourages the Prosecution to continue its practice of offering draft
19 amalgamated statements. However, the Chamber encourages the Prosecution
20 to comply with its 48-hours deadline in offering their final version of
21 amalgamated statement, as well as offering a track-change versions when
22 there is any changes from previously disclosed draft statements.
23 Mr. Gaynor, who will be the next witness we hear first?
24 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. Hurko is here, and he's ready to go, and KDZ-606
25 is being brought to the Tribunal as we speak.
1 JUDGE KWON: Then what we are going to do is to hear the
2 examination-in-chief of Mr. Hurko and we will postpone the
3 cross-examination of the witness to Monday, and then we proceed to hear
4 evidence of KDZ-606.
5 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, Mr. President, can I just ask for one
6 item of clarification. It wasn't my understanding that the Defence had
7 asserted a Rule 66(A)(ii) violation. It was a violation of Your Honour's
8 order on the procedure for the conduct of trial. I'd invite
9 Mr. Robinson, perhaps, to clarify his position.
10 JUDGE KWON: What I understand -- yes, Mr. Robinson?
11 MR. ROBINSON: Well, that's exactly correct and I was going to
12 rise for that very same reason. Because the material was not in the
13 Prosecution's possession until yesterday, this new information, then its
14 disclosure didn't violate Rule 66(A)(ii), but the nature of the material
15 was such that it obligated them to disclose it, but they didn't disclose
16 it late, they disclosed it on time. But we do ask the Chamber to make a
17 specific finding that paragraph L of your order has been violated on each
18 of the three occasions in which we alleged so that that's part of the
19 record. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for the clarification. There is no
21 dispute that there's a non-compliance with that order in relation to
22 these two witnesses.
23 Yes, let's call your next witness, Mr. Gaynor.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. The next witness is
25 Sefik Hurko.
1 [The witness entered court]
2 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, sir.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
4 JUDGE KWON: If you could kindly take the solemn declaration,
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: SEFIK HURKO
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please make yourself comfortable.
11 Good morning, Mr. Hurko, do you follow the proceedings in the
12 language you understand?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
15 Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
17 Examination by Mr. Gaynor:
18 Q. For the record, could you state your full name, please?
19 A. Sefik Hurko, that's my name.
20 Q. You're from the municipality of Rogatica; is that correct?
21 A. Yes, the municipality of Rogatica.
22 Q. What is the name of the village from which you come?
23 A. Village is Madzer.
24 Q. Do you know the location of Kopljevici?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Where is Madzer in relation to Kopljevici?
2 A. Madzer is before Rogatica. It is six kilometres away from
3 Rogatica, whereas the other village is about a kilometre and a half away
4 in the other direction, towards Visegrad.
5 Q. In a statement which you gave in 1994, you said that you stayed
6 in the neighbourhood of Rudo with your father, your mother and your
7 family from the 6th of April 1992. Where is Rudo?
8 A. Rudo is in Rogatica. That's a neighbourhood in Rogatica. That's
9 where I lived with my wife and children. That's where we had sublet an
10 apartment. When the war started, I went to the village of Madzer where
11 I was born. That's where my father, mother and grandmother lived.
12 Q. Take you now to the 22nd May, 1992. On that date, you were in
13 Madzer; is that right?
14 A. The 22nd of May, I was in the village of Madzer where my father
15 lived. On that day, around 1300 hours, fire was opened at all Muslim
16 villages in the municipality of Rogatica; that is to say, literally all
17 of them. And that is when that happened for the first time.
18 Q. How do you know that fire was opened on all the Muslim villages
19 in the municipality of Rogatica?
20 A. The village of Madzer is up a hill, and you can see all of
21 Rogatica and the other villages like Kovalj, Vragolovi, Kopljevici,
22 Orahovo, Sljedovici, Cubrici. All of these villages could be seen and
23 you could see the shells falling on all of these villages. You could see
24 all of that from this village of mine where I was, Madzer, and also these
25 shells were falling on Madzer, too.
1 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to call up now, please, 07859.
2 Q. Now, the screen in front of you, on the left, do you see a
3 document which appears to have been issued by Rajko Kusic, addressed to
4 the Supreme Command of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and
5 to Sokolac TO commander?
6 A. Yes, I see this document.
7 Q. In the first sentence, do you see that on the 22nd of the 5th,
8 1992, the author states:
9 "We conducted armed operations with military police company
10 against enemy strongholds in the villages of Dub, Pokrivenik,
11 Kopljevici," and he names other places, including Rudo 2 settlement?
12 A. I see that. Dub, Pokrivenik, Kopljevici, I know all of that.
13 Rudo, as I told you, is a neighbourhood in Rogatica. That's the day when
14 the war started. So in this area, from Madzer to Visegrad, the
15 population was predominantly Muslim, so these were Muslim villages; that
16 is to say that the population was 90 per cent Muslim. There were no
17 strongholds there then. All these people were civilians who had left
18 Rogatica earlier on. I think that the fighting was over by then in
19 Visegrad. Visegrad had been liberated and there were refugees in the
20 area. In Gorazde, there was fighting, and there was about 35 square
21 kilometres there and there were refugees all over.
22 Q. I just want to confirm: Were you aware of any enemy strongholds
23 in any of the villages named in that document?
24 A. I've just said that there were no strongholds whatsoever, of all
25 these people there were civilians, in all of these places.
1 Q. I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3265, Your Honours.
4 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to call up now, please, 65 ter 08538.
5 Q. The document on the screen in front of you appears to bear at the
6 bottom the date 23rd of the 5th, 1992, and commander Rajko Kusic is the
7 name which appears at the bottom of this document. As you can see,
8 Mr. Hurko, Mr. Kusic in this document appears to be ordering units to
9 hold their positions towards Kusturice, Oskoplje, and Rakitnica. And he
10 orders that in the following 24 hours, the operations unit shall mop up
11 Oskoplje, Kusturice, Zakome and Kalimanici with the assistance of
12 Sokolac. Could you tell us the ethnic makeup, as far as you're aware, of
13 the four settlements of Oskoplje, Kusturice, Zakome and Kalimanici.
14 A. Kusturice is Muslim; Oskoplje, Muslim; Rakitnica, Muslim; and
15 Cadove, Muslim. Muslims lived there.
16 Q. Are you aware of the presence of any armed Muslim formations in
17 those locations on the 22nd of May, 1992?
18 A. This is opposite the place where I was staying, so I don't know.
19 Q. Did you observe any troops commanded by Rajko Kusic, who you
20 believe to be commanded by Rajko Kusic, in action?
21 A. The 14th of August, when I was taken prisoner, that's when
22 I found out that Rajko Kusic was commander of the Serb army in Rogatica.
23 That's when I saw him and that is how he introduced himself.
24 Q. We will come to that date in a moment.
25 MR. GAYNOR: In the meantime, I'd like to tender that document,
1 Mr. President.
2 MR. ROBINSON: I don't think the witness has really confirmed
3 anything about that document, Mr. President.
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor?
5 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I believe the witness has given us information
6 about the ethnic makeup of the four settlements where Kusic is ordering
7 the operations unit to carry out mop-up operations.
8 JUDGE KWON: That's all that he gave.
9 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. That's correct.
10 [Trial Chamber confers]
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, the Chamber will not admit this document
12 through this witness.
13 MR. GAYNOR: Very well, Mr. President. I'll move on.
14 Q. I'd now like to move ahead to the 14th of August. You have
15 previously in your statement of the 16th of November, 1994, described
16 your arrest by four Serb soldiers, and you said that they took you to a
17 garage by the house of a person called Andric. Do you recall that?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. What was the first name of the Andric?
20 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, I just --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mico Andric, the house of
22 Mico Andric.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
24 MR. ROBINSON: I just had a question about whether this witness
25 was being led viva voce or whether there was going to be any use made of
1 the amalgamated statement. So I -- as I'm hearing it, I'm thinking this
2 is a viva voce witness, but I --
3 JUDGE KWON: My understanding is that Mr. Gaynor is going to lead
4 live in relation to the information that has been added, and then he will
5 proceed to tender the 92 ter statement.
6 Am I understanding correct, Mr. Gaynor?
7 MR. GAYNOR: Absolutely correct, yes.
8 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you.
9 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
10 Q. Now, you were taken to the garage by the house of Mico Andric.
11 And in your previous statement you said that you were beaten up there.
12 Who beat you there?
13 A. I was arrested, my mother, my father and my cousin,
14 Hurko Abdulah, were arrested in the village of Madzer. I said we were
15 brought in in the garage of Mico Andric in the village of Kosovo. It's
16 about four kilometres away from the village of Madzer. We were brought
17 there. We were sitting in front of the house for 20 or 30 minutes.
18 Soldiers began to arrive. When the soldiers arrived, four soldiers told
19 us to enter the garage. When we entered the garage, the soldier -- there
20 was a soldier with a mustache. He was shorter than I was, perhaps 1.75
21 metres tall, and he asked us if we knew a certain person. I said we
22 didn't know him. He said, I'm Rajko Kusic, the commander of the Serbian
23 army in Rogatica. Stojan Perkovic was with him. Also Brane Krsmanovic,
24 aka Pipa, and Danko Neric. There was a bench there. We sat there next
25 to each other. My father first, then me, then my mother, and then my
1 cousin. Then Rajko Kusic said to Brano Krsmanovic and to Perkovic to
2 search us. Stojan Perkovic found in my pocket 70 bullets from a
3 7.62-millimetre pistol for which I did have a licence from before the
4 war. He took the ammunition and hit me on the head, and this ammunition
5 just spilled all over this garage. Krsmanovic, Brane approached my
6 father and began to tell him to stick his tongue out, he took a knife out
7 to cut his tongue off. He started to cut his ears and then he took my
8 ammunition and made me eat three or four of those bullets in the garage.
9 And I did eat them. Then they continued to beat us. My father fell to
10 the ground. He was already all covered in blood. Stojan Perkovic then
11 took out a knife and then he started to stab me in my hands, then he
12 wanted to slash my throat. I put my hands up there so I was all covered
13 with blood as well. I don't know how long that lasted. Kusic brought me
14 outside, then -- and then Danko Neric was there, too. He was holding a
15 rifle and Kusic only had a pistol. He said that I should start to talk
16 about something. He said I -- he wasn't interested, I should start
17 talking about something else. I mean, it wasn't any good what I was
18 talking about, and he wasn't interested in what I was saying either.
19 Then --
20 Q. If I can interrupt for a moment. Was Rajko Kusic present when
21 you were forced to eat the bullets?
22 A. Rajko Kusic was present the whole time, when I was eating the
23 bullets and while everything else was going on. He was there the whole
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just briefly say something
1 about the transcript so that all of these mistakes don't pile up? The
2 witness said he was captured, and the transcript says once "taken
3 prisoner," and the second time "arrested." And this is something that
4 I've been pointing to the whole time that semantically these are quite
5 different things, so I would kindly ask the interpreters --
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber will bear that in mind in
7 reading the transcript. And there will be another opportunity to correct
8 the transcript, if necessary. In any event, thank you for your
9 intervention. We will proceed.
10 Mr. Gaynor.
11 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
12 Q. I want to clarity another point which you've eluded to: Was
13 Rajko Kusic present when you and your father were being beaten?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you then taken -- I believe in your previous statement you
16 said you were taken by car, that is, you, your father, and your mother,
17 to the secondary school centre in Rogatica and imprisoned there. My
18 question is this: Who was in the car, taking you from Andric's garage to
19 Rogatica secondary school centre?
20 A. I just want to say first that in the garage, where we were
21 beaten, at one point Dragomir Abazovic came and Rajko asked him what is
22 he going to do with us, and he said that the three of us, me, my father
23 and my mother, should be taken to Rogatica and to interrogate my cousin.
24 And then when we stood up, this Stojan Perkovic and Brane Krsmanovic
25 immediately started to beat him. They put his hands in his mouth, they
1 began to hit him, use the knifes, that they had. He started moaning and
2 screaming, and they took him outside and killed him. I am asserting that
3 they killed him because he never appeared again. Then, when they came
4 out, there was a vehicle, a caddy vehicle with only two seats in the
5 front. They put my mother, my father and me in the back. The driver was
6 Danko Neric. Next to him, Rajko Kusic sat, and they took us to the high
7 school centre in Rogatica.
8 Q. What was the name of the person you describe as your cousin who
9 was killed on that occasion?
10 A. Abdulah Hurko.
11 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to request document 65 ter 07336,
13 Q. The events you've been describing took place on the 14th of
14 August, 1992; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. The document which is appearing on the screen in front of you is
17 dated 15th of the 8th, 1992, addressed to the General Staff of the Army
18 of the Republika Srpska, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and to the command of the
19 SRK. At the bottom, it appears to have been issued by commander
20 Rajko Kusic. Now, you see in this document that Kusic refers to enemy
21 forces, yesterday, that being the 14th of August, 1992, in the villages
22 of Orahovo and Kopljevici. Do you see that?
23 A. I do, yes.
24 Q. Where exactly were you arrested on the 14th of August, 1992?
25 A. In the village of Madzer.
1 Q. Where is that in relation to Kopljevici?
2 A. It's before Kopljevici in the direction of Rogatica, some one to
3 two kilometres.
4 Q. Were -- the forces who arrested you, who were they commanded by?
5 A. Rajko. You mean when I was arrested, at that point?
6 Q. Yes.
7 A. There were three soldiers there, three Serbian soldiers from
8 Rogatica. I knew them, just by sight. Milica Pecanica [phoen] I knew
10 Q. Who did you believe to be the commander of those soldiers?
11 A. Rajko Kusic.
12 Q. This document refers to operations by members of the
13 Rogatica Brigade in the villages of Kopljevice and Orahovo. Is that
14 consistent with what you observed on that day?
15 A. Yes.
16 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, it will be admitted.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P3266, Your Honours.
19 MR. GAYNOR:
20 Q. I'd now like to move to the 15th of August, 1992. In your
21 statement, you say that Danko Neric and a person called Krsman came to
22 pick you up in a car. Would you like to correct the name Krsman?
23 A. Brane Krsmanovic.
24 Q. They were picking you up from what location?
25 A. From the secondary school centre in Rogatica.
1 Q. You state that they took you towards the village of Kosovo?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. They left you and your father with a soldier at crossroads in
5 A. Yes. Well, perhaps I can talk about what happened that -- a
6 little bit from Rogatica on.
7 Q. I'd like you to describe the incident where a bus arrived.
8 That's the incident I'd like you to describe. If you can describe that
9 briefly, when the bus arrived at the crossroads in Kosovo.
10 A. My father and I came in this Golf vehicle to the village of
11 Kosovo at the crossroads towards Duljevac. Danko Neric was driving,
12 Brane Krsmanovic was sitting next to him, and there was a FAP 13 truck
13 that was following us. The FAP was driven by Sinan Catic. And then at
14 the crossroads there was a soldier, and we were told to get out there, my
15 father and I. And this Brane Krsmanovic said: These two should stay
16 here. And when the bus comes, they should get on the bus. They drove
17 off in the car, and this FAP truck continued towards Duljevac. Then in
18 about 15 or 20 minutes, I'm not sure exactly how long, this minibus came
19 and there was a board on it, "Rogatica-Istanbul," it was a Centrotrans
20 Rogatica bus. It stopped. It was driven by Radisav Rubinac, called
21 Pjano. When the bus stopped, the car was coming back then from the
22 direction of Duljevac, and they said there that my father and I should
23 not get on the bus because Rajko Kusic had to interrogate us about
24 something. Then the car went back, followed by the bus, and they left.
25 After a while, this can be 15 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour, I cannot
1 remember, I was all bloodied because the day before I had been beaten,
2 then firing started, shooting, from the direction of Duljevac, and when
3 the shooting stopped, when Krsmanovic, Brane came back, and this
4 Danko Neric and this soldier who was there, Brane Krsmanovic told me, We
5 have killed all the balijas. Danko Neric took my father to Rajko Kusic
6 to some place in some house and they took me back to Mico Andric's house,
7 where I was arrested and brought the day before. This was on the
8 15th of August. It was the second day of my captivity.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, you in your statement describe your transfer to
10 the detention facility at Rasadnik. Is it correct that that took place
11 the next morning, as you say, which is the 16th of August, 1992?
12 A. Yes. On the 16th of July, I was in the secondary school centre,
13 and a truck came with a tarpaulin with policemen. They came and said
14 everyone should get on to the truck and they were going to the Rasadnik
15 camp. Only they mentioned some families who should -- who were loyal who
16 should return.
17 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is kindly asked to repeat the names
18 of the families.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Then in two hours --
20 MR. GAYNOR:
21 Q. Can I interrupt to seek your clarification on two point. First
22 of all, you said:
23 "On the 16th of July, I was in the secondary school centre."
24 Did you, in fact, mean the 16th of August?
25 A. Yes, yes, August, August. August, yes. I'm sorry.
1 Q. Second, you said the names of certain families who the
2 interpreters did not catch. Could you repeat their names, please?
3 A. The families were Hodzic, Soso [phoen], Pasic, and another family
4 were told because -- because they were loyal, they were told that they
5 could go home.
6 Q. Now, was -- is it the case that a person called Kojic gave the
7 order that all the loyal Muslims should be released?
8 A. Yes. The person who came, that was Kojic, he was the one who
9 said that.
10 Q. And in your previous statement, you described him as being from
11 the Serbian MUP. In the interests of clarification, did you mean the MUP
12 from Serbia, or did you mean the --
13 A. No, no, not from Serbia. But since Rogatica was seized and Serbs
14 were there, what I was thinking of was Rogatica, from Bosnia.
15 Q. When you arrived in Rasadnik, you've described in your previous
16 statement a conversation you had with Mujo Jasarevic about the prisoners
17 who had been taken away to collect hay. Do you recall that conversation?
18 A. I do. In two hours a car came again. They took me and my mother
19 to the secondary school centre, to the same prison. They put me in a
20 cell which is where I saw a number of prisoners. One of them was
21 Mujo Jasarevic. There was some bags, travelling bags, standing there in
22 a corner. There were about 15 bags and some cans of peas, and I said
23 What are these bags? They said that there were about 30 more prisoners,
24 that they had gone to Duljevac to collect the hay, and the tins allegedly
25 was where people -- that people used to relieve themselves because nobody
1 was allowed to leave the prison or the room.
2 Q. Do you know what happened to the prisoners who were taken away to
3 collect hay?
4 A. In some 20 to 30 days, Radisav, Pjano, this person that they
5 called Pjano who was the bus driver told Mujo in front of me, he said,
6 They killed your father over there in Jivistit [phoen] I saved you, you
7 were also supposed to be killed. And then Mujo and I had found out that
8 those people were killed over there. I don't know if anybody survived or
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MR. GAYNOR: I now propose to go into private session briefly for
12 the next portion.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 MR. GAYNOR:
15 Q. In your previous statement --
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
17 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, sorry.
18 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
20 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
21 Q. In your previous statement, you have described instances of
22 sexual assault of detainees at Rasadnik. Yesterday, you described to me
23 one incident in particular that you wanted to testify about.
24 A. In early December, the prison commander was Vinko Bojic, who came
25 there. He was appointed by Rajko Kusic to the post. At that time, in
1 December, he killed two Muslims who were in the camp. One was
2 Ibro Karaman, the other one was Himzo Brankovic. And in late December,
3 until the 21st of March, there was a lot of sexual mistreatment. They
4 would be taking away men and women to this room where Vinko Bojic was, as
5 the commander of the camp, and then there were three other rooms leading
6 from that room where Serbs were serving their sentences, and there was a
7 Muslim soldier in also one of those rooms. One evening Mujo Jasarevic,
8 Semso Vatres and myself, Dzemo Jamakovic and another person was summoned
9 by Brane Paunic to enter Vinko's office. When we came to the office, we
10 saw four or five Serbian soldiers there who had beards. They had some
11 sort of insignia on their caps, black caps with some insignia on them,
12 skull and cross bones, something like that. They had ammunition belts,
13 you know, the belts with the ammunition. There were rifles there, and
14 they were sitting at Vinko's desk. And I could see four women, Muslim
15 women, who were in the camp. I know their names but I don't want to
16 mention them now. If necessary, I will. He said when we entered that we
17 should strip. We started begging, Why should we strip? He took some bat
18 and said, Come on, take your clothes off. He started shouting so we all
19 started to take our clothes off. The women had already started to take
20 their clothes off, and then we were all naked. And then when we took all
21 of our clothes off, he said we should hold each other's hands and dance,
22 to dance the kolo [phoen] dance, and then we were dancing around those
23 Serb soldiers, Chetniks. I don't even know how to call them. I don't
24 know what sort of soldiers they were. They were people who were there.
25 This took an hour, hour and a half. They made us touch their breasts and
1 made them touch us, but I don't really want to describe that. And then
2 there were three rooms leading off from that office, and then they made a
3 woman enter one of those rooms, naked. She stayed up there for some 20
4 minutes and then she came out by herself. When she came out of the room,
5 they would -- made another one go in and this lasted for an hour or two.
6 Then they commanded that we should get ready, that they would take us to
7 the room. This was one occasion. And it happened to me on three or four
8 occasions, as well. And it wasn't the same people each time. It was
9 different men, different women each time. And that is the most difficult
10 time for me. When I was eating bullets, when I was beaten, none of that
11 is as bad as the trauma that I carry for the rest of my life because of
12 that. Even when I think of those women, I mean even now when I meet any
13 of them, I just hide. This is something that Vinko Bojic ordered.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Are we in semi-private session?
15 JUDGE KWON: We are in private session.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I suggest that we get the names
17 under seal, the names of the persons who were mistreated.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor?
19 MR. GAYNOR: I'll leave it in Your Honour's discretion.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, very well. Mr. Hurko, in the course of your
21 answer, you said that you can give the names of those women. We are in
22 private session, which means that nobody else outside, other than us, can
23 hear the proceedings, nor can they read the transcript of our
24 proceedings. Now you had the -- heard the request from Mr. Karadzic.
25 Are you minded to give the names of those women or the ladies?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
3 MR. GAYNOR:
4 Q. If you can provide the names, please, Mr. Hurko.
5 A. (redacted)
6 These are four women who were there. That was on that particular
7 occasion that I described on that day. But there were other women who
8 had been taken there the following days. I don't know what they did to
9 them then. I'm just talking about the things that I saw myself.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Hurko.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I suggest the witness said that
12 he was abused like this three or four times. Was it always the same
13 women, and if not, can we have the names of those other women as well?
14 JUDGE KWON: I think you can explore that in your
16 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. We can return to open
17 session, please.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 [Open session]
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
21 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd now like to turn to
22 the question of Rajko Kusic at Rasadnik. This is on paragraph 44 for the
23 other participants.
24 Q. Did you ever see Rajko Kusic at Rasadnik while you were there?
25 A. About six or seven times he came to the prison there.
1 Q. What years did you -- were those six or seven times?
2 A. It was in 1992 and 1993.
3 Q. Did you form any impression as to whether he had any control
4 whatsoever over Rasadnik?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is it permissible to ask for
7 MR. GAYNOR: I'm going to get to the facts which led to that
8 impression in a moment.
9 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed.
10 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Objection overruled.
12 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you.
13 Q. Mr. Hurko, did you form an impression as to whether Rajko Kusic
14 exercised any control over Rasadnik?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. To what extent did you believe he was in control of that
17 detention place?
18 A. Fully, fully.
19 Q. Now, could you describe any particular incident which led you to
20 believe that?
21 A. Around the 23rd of July, 1993, he entered the room that we were
22 in. He said: I'm not going to feed you any more here. I've been
23 feeding you until now. I'm going to have you transferred to Alija.
24 You're going to be exchanged. I don't need you any more. That was
25 around the 23rd. Not necessarily that particular day, but around the
1 23rd of July, 1993.
2 During the next two or three days, a bus came, one or two buses
3 came, and they said that we would be exchanged in Bijeljina and that
4 that's where we were going. We all boarded these buses around the 25th,
5 and we arrived in Vlasenica. They only negotiated, talked about
6 something. They didn't reach any agreement. Then we arrived in Zvornik.
7 I don't know what the name of that room is where we were in Zvornik, and
8 they said, You're going to spend the night here, and you're going to
9 continue your journey to Bijeljina on the next day, Batkovic, where the
10 prison was there. We entered that room. It was empty, totally empty.
11 We lay on some parquet floor, and in the morning, around 5.00, a soldier
12 came. He introduced himself as the commander of the Serb army in
13 Zvornik. He started cursing. He was saying all sorts of things, using
14 swear words about our mothers, what are you doing there, lying there?
15 You're going to be exchanged. He said, Get out. And we did get out.
16 There was a truck there covered with a tarpaulin. And we all entered
17 that truck. There were old women there that we had to carry, and so on,
18 but anyway, we were like sardines, packed in that truck. We set off to
19 Bijeljina, Batkovic. We arrived in the Batkovic prison. When we arrived
20 there, they said that we should all get off that truck and a soldier said
21 to us, Now, when I call out your names, women are going to go on to one
22 side and men to the other side. And he started calling out people's
23 names. And once he was halfway done, roughly, another Serb soldier came
24 to him and then they talked for about five minutes. After, that this
25 soldier said, All of you get into that truck again. So we all got into
1 that truck. And the truck left, and returned us to Rogatica, to the
2 prison where we had been before. We arrived in Rogatica around 5.00 or
3 6.00 in the early evening, that is to say, about 1700 or 1800 hours.
4 Around 2100 hours or 2200 hours, Rajko Kusic and Vinko Bojic arrived.
5 They entered the room, and you could see that this Rajko was nervous. We
6 always had to jump up, and when we got up, and he said, Get up and sit
7 down, and he said that several times. And then he started cursing, and
8 he said, You see, Alija doesn't want you there. No one wants you. I
9 don't know what to do with you. I'm going to call the
10 International Red Cross to take you wherever. I don't need you any more.
11 He also said that we should stand there and then he left. About ten
12 minutes later, Vinko Bojic returned and said that we should sit down.
13 Then on the 28th -- so that was around the 25th. And then on the 28th,
14 the International Red Cross came to register us. Can I go on about that
16 Q. Yes, you can. And I'd like you just to explain very briefly, if
17 you can, what it was you said to the Red Cross representatives and what
18 happened afterwards.
19 A. The International Red Cross came on the 28th of July 1993. I
20 have that paper that I got then. Rajko Kusic was in Vinko's office when
21 this jeep came, or whatever the name of the vehicle was; it said
22 International Red Cross. And they entered this office of Vinko Bojic.
23 They talked about something there and about ten minutes later, these
24 people from the International Red Cross entered our cell as well as
25 Vinko Bojic. We got up and they said that we should sit down. We did
1 sit down. We introduced ourselves -- or, rather, they introduced
2 themselves and said, We are from the International Red Cross. Don't
3 worry, no people from the Serb military can be here. They told Vinko to
4 leave, and they said, You are free to tell us everything, what you're
5 doing here and how things are here.
6 I was glad. I thought that I had survived and that I would never
7 be beaten again. And I got up and I said that we were being taken to the
8 front line, that we could not survive, that we did not have enough food.
9 That it was hard for us, that they were beating us, that they were taking
10 us every night, that they were mistreating us sexually, that they were
11 stripping us naked, and so on. And also Mujo Jasarevic said a few
12 things, and my father said that he would like it if we could be
13 transferred to another country altogether. They said that they would
14 give Mujo and me some cards stating that we were registered with this
15 International Red Cross because we talked. As for the others, they said
16 that they would be back in two weeks' time and that they would register
17 all of them as well. Is that the words you use, "register"? What's --
18 what is the word? Well, anyway, yes. Well, they registered us with the
19 International Red Cross, yes.
20 They said that they would bring us some clothes in about 15 days
21 and then they left.
22 Q. I would now like to -- you to tell us about an incident which
23 happened around three days later. Keep your comments fairly brief on
25 A. About a three days later, after the Red Cross left,
1 Hasim Dumanovic and Nazif Dumanovic were called in. They were there for
2 about half an hour. And after that, Brano Planojevic came and said,
3 Sefik Hurko should go to Vinko's. When I walked in, I saw that those two
4 had been beaten up badly, these were old men, they were 65 years old. As
5 for the place where Vinko was sitting in that office, Dragomir Abazovic,
6 nicknamed --
7 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear it.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpreter] Was sitting there. I already
9 mentioned him in connection with the situation when I was being taken
10 prisoner. Vinko was there with a baton in his hand and this Abazovic
11 said to me, Sele - I mean, he knew me very well, and he was born in
12 1957 - as for that statement, when we arrested you, in Kosovo, the
13 statement you gave, it does not tally at all. We captured another
14 Muslim, and now you're going to tell us how things were. I had barely
15 started talking when Vinko started hitting me in the head with his hands.
16 He started hitting me, and also he cocked his pistol, put it in my mouth,
17 and I could not say anything. After that, he said Take off your shirt.
18 I took off my shirt. Then he started plucking hairs from my underarm and
19 made me eat it. And then he started extinguishing cigarettes on my arms.
20 And after that, he told me to strip naked. I was wearing underwear and a
21 jacket and I had to strip. And then they started taunting me quite a
22 bit. And then he took a knife, and then he wanted to hit me in the ribs.
23 And that is when I moved a bit and then he said, Fuck you. What are you
24 doing? You're defending yourself. And he didn't hit me with the tip of
25 the knife, but he turned it around and he used that other part to hit me
1 in the ribs and that's when I fell. There was no air in my lungs any
2 more, it was about five minutes or so, and they kept saying, shouting,
3 Get up, get up. And then I finally managed to get up and I only managed
4 to put my underwear on. A few minutes later, they said that Fejzo Hurko
5 should be called in. That's my father. When they called him in, Vinko
6 started hitting him on the head with both hands. He hit him several
7 times in the head and then he kept saying, Do you want to be taken out?
8 Do you want to be taken to Germany, abroad? All the things that I said
9 to the International Red Cross -- and that I had said to the
10 International Red Cross, that is what they were repeating as they were
11 beating us. Then he started hitting him with the truncheon, too, and
12 then he told him to face the wall and he gave me the truncheon and said
13 that I should beat him. I took the truncheon in my left hand because
14 I did not have enough air in my lungs to use my right-hand. And then I
15 hit him about four or five times. I couldn't do anymore. And then he
16 said, If you cannot do it then I'm going to do it, and then he took that
17 truncheon, I remember that full well. He hit him very strongly 15 times
18 and he did not fall. After the 15th blow, he fell on the floor. He
19 started screaming, moaning. And at that moment, Abazovic, Dragomir and
20 Vinko Bojic left the room. Vinko Bojic had a car, a luxury car, a
21 Stojadin. They got into that car and they left. And they said to
22 Brano Planojevic to take us to the cell.
23 Q. Thank you. Just for the record, could you confirm the nickname
24 of Dragomir Abazovic, which the interpreters just didn't catch a little
1 A. Pidje is his nickname, Dragomir Abazovic's nickname.
2 Q. Thank you. I'll just clarify one or two minor details. You said
3 in your statement then on the 18th of December, 1993, Sejfo Mirvic, a
4 prisoner from the solitary cell, was killed. And then you said in the
5 original statement that somebody came in respect of his death. Who was
6 it that came and what did they do?
7 A. [No interpretation]
8 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
9 start his answer again.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Hurko, if you could kindly start your answer
11 from the beginning, they couldn't catch your first part.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Satorovic is the name. Tmurni Do.
13 These are places where most of the Muslims stayed on as loyal citizens.
14 They were expelled, too, but at that time they still called them loyal.
15 MR. GAYNOR:
16 Q. Mr. Hurko, can I just ask you this: After Sejfo Mirvic was
17 killed, is it correct that a doctor came to confirm his death?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, in your statement, you state that you were transferred from
20 Rasadnik to Kula prison on the 30th of April, 1994, and you describe work
21 that you were required to carry out at Ekonomija. Describe briefly what
22 Ekonomija is and where it is.
23 A. Ekonomija is close to Kula. The Serbs called it Ekonomija. That
24 was a farm. Grass was cut, potatoes were dug. I don't know how to
25 explain this. Agricultural activity.
1 Q. Now, in a statement which you gave to representatives of the
2 Tribunal in 1999, you gave a list of people who you believed were members
3 of the Crisis Staff for the municipality of Rogatica. One of those you
4 named was Milovan Lelek. Do you wish to make any correction as to
5 whether you believe he was a member of the Rogatica Crisis Staff?
6 A. I do, by all means. Milovan Lelek. I don't want that name to be
7 mentioned at all here. I saw this man in civilian clothes. He was very
8 fair, very correct. He always greeted me. When I saw him in civilian
9 clothing, there was something wrong with his knee. He was being treated
10 for that. And I don't know how come that man's name is there.
11 Q. You don't believe he was a member of the Rogatica Crisis Staff;
12 is that correct?
13 A. I just saw him in Rogatica once in civilian clothes. I don't
15 Q. Very well.
16 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, what I propose to do is to ask the
17 Rule 92 ter questions in respect to the statement.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
19 MR. GAYNOR:
20 Q. Now, Witness, did you have the opportunity to review, with me and
21 with an interpreter, yesterday, a statement to which you made some
22 corrections and clarifications?
23 A. Yes.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Could I call up, please, 65 ter 90269?
25 Q. Do you see on the screen in front of you the first page of that
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you adopt that statement as your evidence, and if you were
4 asked questions on the same subjects today, would you provide the same
6 A. Well, what I see here is my first and last name and when I was
8 Q. Mr. Hurko, you had an opportunity to review your 1994 statement;
9 is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You then made some corrections and clarifications and additions
12 to that statement. Is that true?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Yesterday it was explained to you that this represents an English
15 translation of your previous statements incorporating the clarifications
16 and additional information which you provided; is that correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. You then signed the first and last pages of the statement; is
19 that right?
20 JUDGE KWON: I think he put initials on each page. Why don't we
21 show him every page, just go through the document. You'll see the entire
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.
24 JUDGE KWON: The last page.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. Yes, I see that.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, the witness's signature is actually on the
3 penultimate page.
4 Q. In any event, Mr. Hurko, do you adopt that statement as your
5 evidence, and if you were asked questions on the same subjects today
6 would you provide the same answers?
7 A. Yes.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Now I'd like to tender that statement in evidence.
9 JUDGE KWON: That is admitted.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3267, Your Honours.
11 MR. GAYNOR: I do have a summary of the statement for the public
12 which I can read.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, thank you.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. Hurko is a Bosnian Muslim from Rogatica. He
15 describes the attack on his village on the 22nd of May, 1992. Mr. Hurko
16 then joins the BiH Territorial Defence. On or around 14th of August,
17 1992, Serb forces arrested Mr. Hurko, his parents and his uncle at his
18 parents' house. They were taken to a garage by the house of Mico Andric.
19 There, in the presence of Rajko Kusic, Serb soldiers brutally beat
20 Mr. Hurko and his father, and forced Mr. Hurko to swallow bullets. Kusic
21 questioned Mr. Hurko and personally escorted Mr. Hurko and his parents to
22 Rogatica where they were detained in the Veljko Vlahovic secondary
24 Kusic took Mr. Hurko's father for further interrogation at the
25 Rogatica police station. On the 15th of August, 1992, Mr. Hurko saw a
1 group of men being transported on a minibus and later heard the sounds of
2 gunfire from the direction in which the bus had travelled. He later
3 became aware that this gunfire may have related to detainees who had been
4 taken from a detention facility at Rasadnik and then killed. Mr. Hurko
5 and his father were transferred to the Rasadnik facility where Mr. Hurko
6 was detained for over 20 months. He saw Rajko Kusic several times there
7 in 1992 and 1993, and formed the view that Kusic had complete control
8 over the prison. Rasadnik was guarded by Serb military police. The
9 warden, Vinko Bojic, was appointed by Rajko Kusic. Bojic subjected both
10 male and female detainees to acts of grossly humiliating mistreatment.
11 Several detainees who were sent to Bojic's office were beaten to death
12 there or shot dead. Mr. Hurko was forced to carry out labour assignments
13 while he was a detainee at Rasadnik, including recovering the bodies of
14 dead soldiers, Serb soldiers, in mined areas. At one stage, Mr. Hurko
15 and other detainees were transferred from Rasadnik to Batkovic camp where
16 they were led to believe they were to be exchanged but were then returned
17 to Rasadnik. On 30th of April, 1994, a group of detainees, including
18 women and children, were transferred from Rasadnik to KP Dom Kula.
19 Mr. Hurko was finally exchanged on the 5th of October, 1994.
20 Now, unless there are other matters, that ends the direct
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Gaynor.
23 Mr. Hurko, due to some procedural matters, and also given that
24 there is another witness who is not well, the Chamber wants to conclude
25 his evidence during the course of today. We have to postpone your
1 cross-examination to Monday. So please accept my apologies for your
2 inconvenience but I hope you do understand the situation of the Chamber.
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That's fine.
4 JUDGE KWON: Well, we'll have a break. Shall we have a break
5 now? We will have a break about half an hour. And we resume at 25 past
6 with the next witness, whose evidence I believe will be heard in closed
8 --- Recess taken at 10.54 a.m.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 --- On resuming at 11.27 a.m.
11 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Ms. Edgerton. Although the blinds are
12 down, we started in open session because there is one matter I want to
13 clarify in relation to the previous witness. So I have to discuss it
14 with you, Mr. Tieger, because you were there. It may be prudent if we go
15 into private session.
16 [Private session]
17 [Closed session]
11 Page 18252-18287 redacted. Closed session.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Monday, the 5th day
9 of September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.