Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 18827

 1                           Thursday, 15 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 1.32 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7             If the witness could take the solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  KDZ-379

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If you could make yourself comfortable.

13     Sir, before you begin your testimony, I would like to inform you on

14     behalf of the Chamber that you will be testifying today with the benefit

15     of pseudonym and image distortion.  This means that there will be no

16     reference to your real name or information that might reveal your

17     identity to the public or media.  The audiovisual record of your

18     testimony which is broadcast to the public will have a distorted image,

19     which can be seen right now in front of your monitor.  Why don't you show

20     the image of the witness to the witness.

21             Yes.  To ensure that your identity is protected and the

22     transcript, while available to the public, we'll always refer to your

23     pseudonym which is KDZ-379.

24             Yes, Mr. Gaynor.

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.

Page 18828

 1                           Examination by Mr. Gaynor:

 2        Q.   Good afternoon, witness.

 3        A.   Good afternoon.

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  Could I please have 65 ter 90276.

 5        Q.   Witness, on the screen in front of you, could you confirm that

 6     you see your name.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that pseudonym sheet under seal,

 9     Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3331, under seal, Your Honours.

12             MR. GAYNOR:

13        Q.   Mr. Witness, is it correct that you testified before this

14     Tribunal in the trial of Milorad Krnojelac?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Have you recently had an opportunity to listen to an audio

17     recording of your testimony in that trial?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Do you adopt that testimony as your evidence in this trial, and

20     would you provide the same evidence to the Court if questioned on the

21     same matters here today?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honour, I would like to tender the transcript

24     of the witness's testimony which is 65 ter 22162, for admission as a

25     public exhibit.

Page 18829

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted as Exhibit 3332.

 2             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I now propose to read a

 3     brief summary for the public of the evidence in that transcript.

 4             In April 1992, at a JNA fuel warehouse in Filipovici, Foca

 5     municipality, the witness and others gave refuge to Muslim civilians who

 6     came there from their villages and from the town of Foca to seek

 7     protection.  They said that an attack had taken place on villages around

 8     Foca as well as in Foca town, and people had been expelled.

 9             On 26 April 1992, several days after the witness had received a

10     warning from an SDS representative, Pero Mihajlovic, not to offer

11     protection to any more refugees, the fuel depot was attacked and taken

12     over by around 20 armed members of a Serb military formation known as the

13     White Eagles, accompanied by an armoured vehicle.  The refugees were

14     placed on a bus and the witness was arrested and taken to

15     Velecevo women's prison.  He was shown to a room in which a number of

16     Serb men were having a meeting, including Velibor Ostojic.  There were

17     large topographic maps on a table in front of them marked in red and

18     blue, and a large map of Foca on the wall.  Ostojic asked the witness if

19     he had joined the balijas and the Ustasha.  The witness was then detained

20     at KP Dom in Foca where he saw the bus which had taken the refugees from

21     the warehouse at Filipovici.  He testified about the detention of

22     non-Serb women and children at KP Dom.

23             During his detention at KP Dom, the witness was repeatedly

24     returned to Velecevo women's prison for interrogation.  That concludes

25     the summary.

Page 18830

 1             I'd now like to call up 65 ter 07473, if we can look at the first

 2     page in English and B/C/S.

 3        Q.   Mr. Witness, as we will see in a moment we will see the first

 4     page of an issue of the Official Gazette of the Serbian Municipality of

 5     Foca.  This issue, as we can see, is dated the 17th of September, 1992.

 6     Now, I'd like us to turn to page 8 in B/C/S and page 39 in English.  If

 7     we could enlarge the top half of the page in B/C/S, please.  Mr. Witness,

 8     can you see there a record of a decision of the Assembly of the

 9     Serbian Municipality of Foca taken on the 3rd of April, 1992, to

10     establish the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Foca?  Can you

11     see that?

12        A.   I see it.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I ask the Registrar to focus on the list of

14     names numbered 1 to 15, on the right-hand side of the B/C/S version.

15        Q.   In that list of names in front of you, Mr. Witness, could you

16     identify by name and number which of those persons you saw at Velecevo on

17     the 26th of April, 1992?

18        A.   Under number 1, then number 5, number 4, and number 13.

19        Q.   For the record, number 1 is Miroslav Stanic, number 4 is

20     Vojislav Maksimovic, number 5 is Petko Cancar, number 13 is

21     Radovan Mandic.  Simply to clarify the record, Mr. Witness, in your

22     statement of the 23rd of December, 1995 - no need to bring it up for the

23     moment - you referred to a man called Rajko Mandic, who you saw at

24     Velecevo women's prison.  Could you confirm whether Rajko Mandic is the

25     same person as Radovan Mandic?

Page 18831

 1        A.   This doctor was short, but I heard the name, and they referred to

 2     him as doctor.  But there was another doctor, Crni, but I don't know his

 3     proper name and I don't know who the man was.

 4        Q.   But you're quite sure that Radovan Mandic was at Velecevo women's

 5     prison on the 26th of April 1992?

 6        A.   I think he was.

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like to tender that edition of the

 8     Official Gazette of the Serbian Municipality of Foca, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  That is admitted.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3333, Your Honours.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd like now to play a video, and this is

12     65 ter 40199.  It was formerly recorded under the number 45314.  I'll

13     play a number of clips from this video.  If we could start, please, at 4

14     minutes and 27 seconds.  I'd like to direct the interpreters to page 1 of

15     the transcript in English and B/C/S.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Host:  It is three years from the

18     liberation of Srbinje.  The guest in our studio is Miroslav Stanic,

19     member of the Main Board of the Serbian Democratic Party of all Serbian

20     states, member of the Municipal Board of Srbinje and the first commander.

21     Welcome."

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop there, please.  We stopped at 4 minutes and

23     52 seconds.

24        Q.   First of all, witness, the presenter there referred to Srbinje.

25     What was Srbinje formerly known as?

Page 18832

 1        A.   Foca.

 2        Q.   What do you understand the term "Srbinje" to denote?

 3        A.   Well, mostly during the war and after the war, names were

 4     changed.  All the places that came to belong to the Serbian Republic were

 5     changed and they were given other names, with the prefix Serbian,

 6     Srpski Brod, Srbinje, and so on.  Now, they -- the reason was probably

 7     that the Serbs remained in Foca, so that's why they had the place names

 8     changed to reflect that.

 9        Q.   The second clip will start at 9 minutes and 45.  For the benefit

10     of the interpreters, this is at the top half of page 3 in English and in

11     B/C/S.  If we could play it, please.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Host:  You were the first war

14     commander in the area of Srbinje.  Can you give our viewers your account

15     of the beginning of the armed conflict and the three war years?

16             "Stanic:  I cannot talk about the whole period.  I shall talk

17     only about the part when I was the commander on behalf of the SDS which

18     enabled me to become the first war commander because I was there at the

19     time.  However, I must say, before we continue, our response to their

20     bacchanal in the Drina valley which was inevitable, at least a verbal

21     response, was the magnificent founding assembly of the SDS in September

22     1990 followed by a yet more magnificent Trojcindan Sabor, or convention,

23     when we said that the Drina would never become a border but a windpipe

24     between two lungs."

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop there please.  It's stopped at 10 minutes and

Page 18833

 1     40 seconds.

 2        Q.   First of all, Mr. Witness, in that extract Stanic said:

 3             "I was the commander on behalf of the SDS, which enabled me to

 4     become the first war commander."

 5             Now, is that statement consistent with your understanding of his

 6     role in Foca in April 1992?

 7        A.   His duty was the main person, the number 1 man, and I received

 8     the information from my colleague who was a prominent public figure and

 9     he told me that he was the commander.

10        Q.   Stanic refers to the Drina, and he refers to a statement made at

11     a convention where it was said, "The Drina would never become a border

12     but a windpipe between two lungs."  Could you assist us with what you

13     understand that expression to mean?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask that -- I have to

15     intervene with the translation.  He didn't say "granica," a border, he

16     said "medja."  There is a slight difference in the terminology

17     dividing -- for example, "medja" is used to divide two fields, the

18     boundary line or dividing line, and I'd like the witness to confirm that.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             MR. GAYNOR:

21        Q.   Now, witness, could you, in any event, explain your understanding

22     of the words used by Stanic and his reference to the windpipe between two

23     lungs?

24        A.   Well, one part of the lungs was Serbia, the Republic of Serbia,

25     and the other lung; the other part of the lungs, was Drina, which was to

Page 18834

 1     become joined with the Serbian Republic; and on the other side, the other

 2     lung would be the people from the Serbian Republic, which meant that they

 3     would breathe with the same breathing system, the Serbs on the one side

 4     and the Serbs on the other side.  They would breathe together.

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  I'd now like to move to 15 minutes and 47 seconds.

 6     For the benefit of the interpreters this is in the middle of page 4 in

 7     English and the lower portion of page 4 in B/C/S.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Host: ... knew what the enemy were

10     up to.

11             "Stanic:  Of course.  What else could I have ordered because

12     experience taught us that if we choose the first option, we would suffer

13     the same fate as Gorazde.  That was the beginning of our outstanding

14     victories.  We liberated the town in six days.  By the 25th of April, we

15     managed to liberate the whole of the Foca municipality, the largest

16     municipality in Republika Srpska.  I submitted my war report to the

17     ministerial council, as it was then called at that time, at the beginning

18     of June.  We were active in the Crisis Staff, crisis committee, and later

19     in the army command.  I turned over the command to 11 officers headed by

20     Colonel Marko Kovac.  Our organisation changed names, it was called

21     Tactical Group Drina, and then the garrison.  It changed names several

22     times, but the structure of the battalion remained the same until a year

23     ago.  It was very efficient, as everyone knows, in the whole of

24     Republika Srpska territory."

25             MR. GAYNOR:  Stopped at 17 minutes, 24 seconds.

Page 18835

 1        Q.   In that extract, Mr. Witness, Mr. Stanic referred to the

 2     liberation of the town and the liberation of the municipality of Foca in

 3     April 1992.  On the basis of what you observed, what did the liberation

 4     of Foca municipality involve?

 5        A.   Well, it stretched right to Filipovici, Ustikolina, Jabuka up at

 6     the top, and those villages there which belonged to the

 7     Municipal Assembly of Foca at that time.  They weren't taken control of.

 8     It was only on the 26th or 27th when that happened.  Up until the 25th,

 9     all the rest of Foca municipality had been taken.

10        Q.   Thank you.  And where he talks about -- where he says "We managed

11     to liberate the whole of Foca municipality," what did you understand the

12     liberation process to involve?

13        A.   It included the expulsion of the Muslim population from that

14     region, expulsion, killings and incarceration.  So it was liberated from

15     the Muslim population of the Municipal Assembly of Foca.

16        Q.   Did you say, "The Muslim population of the Municipal Assembly of

17     Foca"?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  The Muslim population living in the Municipal Assembly

19     of Foca.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Witness, earlier you identified for the Trial Chamber

21     several members of the Crisis Staff who you saw at Velecevo on the

22     26th of April, 1992.  In the interview, Mr. Stanic has referred to the

23     Crisis Staff and to the army command in the takeover of Foca.  Could you

24     comment as to what Stanic's words were and whether they were consistent

25     with what you observed in Foca in late April 1992?

Page 18836

 1        A.   At that period, the Crisis Staff was the body which assigned war

 2     assignments.  Since -- well, it issued orders and tasks to some units,

 3     whether it was the infantry or some other units that existed.  So the

 4     Crisis Staff was the body that issued commands to take certain territory,

 5     places and positions.

 6        Q.   I'd like to move now to 18 minutes and 50 seconds.  This is the

 7     middle of page 5 in the B/C/S transcript and the top of page 5 in the

 8     English.  To play from 18 minutes and 50 seconds to 19 minutes and

 9     33 seconds.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Stanic:  However, I would like to

12     say something about the surroundings of our command, but as far as the

13     Serb sentiments are concerned ..."

14             MR. GAYNOR:

15        Q.   For the record, witness, could I ask you to read out the words on

16     the screen in front of you?

17        A.   Miroslav Stanic, member of the Main Board of the

18     Serbian Democratic Party, president of the municipal board of Srbinje and

19     the first war commander.  So he was a member of the Main Board of the

20     SDS, that's number 1.  Then he was president of the municipal board of

21     Srbinje, number 2.  And the first war commander, under 3.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.  That was at 19 minutes and two seconds.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Can we play on, please.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Stanic:  I can't say who is a

Page 18837

 1     bigger Serb or a better Serb.  However, regarding their revolutionary

 2     fighting spirit, if certain individuals have been in the command at the

 3     beginning of the conflict, we would certainly not be sitting here in free

 4     Foca, and we would probably have a constant headache from the muezzins'

 5     singing from the tops of the minarets and songs such as 'Vino piju age

 6     Sarajlije,' a traditional Muslim song."

 7             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you.  We stopped at 19 minutes and 35 seconds.

 8        Q.   And there we see Mr. Stanic referring to if other Serbs had been

 9     in charge, that one might experience in Foca a constant headache from the

10     muezzin singing from the tops of the minarets, what happened to the

11     minarets in Foca municipality after the Serb takeover?

12        A.   They were shelled, the minarets were shelled so that most of the

13     mosques were destroyed or had their minarets destroyed.  And I was told

14     that by the refugees who came to the warehouse.

15        Q.   Is Mr. Stanic's comment consistent with the conduct of the Serb

16     authorities towards the Muslim population in Foca in April 1992?

17        A.   Yes.

18             MR. GAYNOR:  Could we move now to another clip.  This is at

19     47 minutes and 38 seconds, and this is a speech given by Mr. Stanic to

20     the public, so we will play the introduction to the speech to understand

21     the context in which it was given and then we'll play part of

22     Mr. Stanic's speech.  Start now from 47 minutes and 38 seconds.  This is

23     on the last page of the transcript, for the benefit of the interpreters.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "The Reporter:  The atmosphere today

Page 18838

 1     in Srbinje was magnificent.  With the participation of several thousands

 2     of citizens of Srbinje neighbouring municipalities, a meeting of support

 3     was organised for Dr. Radovan Karadzic, President of Republika Srpska,

 4     and General Ratko Mladic, Chief of the Main Staff of the Republika Srpska

 5     army.  The name of the meeting was:  'We won't give you our Nemanjics

 6     without bloodshed,' a verse from Serbian epic, and it was aimed against

 7     the provisions of The Hague Tribunal which had charged them for alleged

 8     war crimes.  The meeting was organised by the municipal board of the

 9     Serbian Democratic Party.  Besides the representatives of

10     Srbinje municipality, the following prominent people attended the

11     meeting:  Zoran Vujanovic, vice-president of the Serbian Democratic Party

12     of Republike Srpska; Bozidar Vucurevic, mayor of Trebinje municipality;

13     Mirko Mijatovic, deputy of the People's Assembly of Republika Srpska;

14     Dr. Dusko Kornjaca, mayor of Cajnice municipality; and Drago Pejovic,

15     deputy in People's Assembly from Cajnice and others.  Miroslav Stanic,

16     president of the Municipal Board of the SDS in Srbinje was the first to

17     greet the participants of the meeting, the citizens of Srbinje and

18     neighbouring municipalities.

19             "Stanic:  Dear brothers and sisters, dear guests, I would like to

20     greet you all with a sincere wish that there be no more war, but with

21     firm resolution to be the creators of our happiness and our own future.

22     The younger generations do not remember, but those of us relatively older

23     or very old know full well that we organise meeting of support for

24     Patrice Lumumba, Che Guevara, the Karinthian Slovenes, the

25     Czechoslovakians, the Khmer Rouge and many others whose names are almost

Page 18839

 1     unpronounceable.  So why not support ourselves today?  We want to choose

 2     our own leaders.  We, the Serbs on the west bank of the Drina River, know

 3     full well that our leaders are Dr. Radovan Karadzic and

 4     General Ratko Mladic."

 5             MR. GAYNOR:  Stop there, please.  We've stopped at 49 minutes and

 6     40 seconds.

 7        Q.   You heard there Mr. Stanic describe the leaders on the west bank

 8     of the Drina River as Dr. Radovan Karadzic and General Ratko Mladic.

 9     Could you tell the Trial Chamber who, on the basis of your observations,

10     you understood the Serbs of Foca considered their leaders to be in April

11     1992?

12        A.   The Serbs considered as their leader Radovan Karadzic.  They saw

13     him as -- or rather, the man number 2 was Ratko Mladic, and that could be

14     seen in various gatherings, rallies.  And even before Foca was taken, a

15     colleague of mine who was near another warehouse, he would go on a daily

16     basis to the Municipal Assembly, where there was Miroslav Stanic, and he

17     would get information there which he later conveyed to me.  He would

18     describe the situation to me exactly as it was developing.  He would tell

19     me what would happen, when, who was their ideological leader, and so on.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Witness.

21             MR. GAYNOR:  I've no further questions for this witness.  There

22     are no associated exhibits to be tendered.  I would like to tender the

23     video in evidence.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Did you give us the indication as to the time frame

25     of this video, the first interview and this speech?

Page 18840

 1             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, from what we have been able to determine, the

 2     introduction to the first interview is described as the third anniversary

 3     of the Serb takeover of Srbinje, so we would date that as approximately

 4     April 1995.  The second video, the speech of Mr. Stanic to the crowd, has

 5     taken place after the indictment of Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic,

 6     which would place it, at the very earliest, in late July 1995, and I

 7     don't have any more specific information as to the date of the speech by

 8     Stanic.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And you are tendering these video-clips in one go,

10     in one exhibit?

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, we can do that.  If Your Honours wish to assess

12     the video-clips in the context of the entire video, perhaps Your Honours

13     might wish to admit the entire video.  I leave it --

14             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit only those parts shown to the Chamber.

15             Mr. Robinson.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we object to the portions of

17     the video other than that of the speech because we believe that this is

18     an after-the-fact statement of the third party which you have

19     consistently not admitted.  So even though it's oral as opposed to

20     written, this is a 1995 interview, three years after the events, and we

21     believe that it's the same as if it were a written statement taken in

22     1995 from Mr. Stanic.  So it's our position that those -- while the

23     witness's answers and the -- it's a third party statement being shown to

24     a witness.  He can comment on it, but we don't believe that under your

25     rules it's admissible.  Thank you.

Page 18841

 1             JUDGE KWON:  When we referred to a third party statement, we

 2     usually referred to a news clipping or a newspaper article, interview or

 3     the statements taken for the purpose of criminal investigation,

 4     et cetera.  Do you see any difference taken spontaneously or

 5     contemporaneously?  Take your time.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, there is a difference.  There is a

 7     difference.  Had this been taken in 1992, then we wouldn't be objecting,

 8     but it was a contemporaneous -- it was three years after the events.  It

 9     was reflecting back.  The only difference was it was a newscaster instead

10     of some other -- a police officer or investigator from the OTP who was

11     asking someone for their recollection of events which had occurred in the

12     past.

13             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I've prepared some submissions on the

14     matter if you would care to hear them now.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MR. GAYNOR:  Well, first of all, Mr. Robinson is drawing an

17     equivalence between a statement prepared for the purposes of an

18     investigation or for the purpose of testimony prior to a trial, but if

19     you -- the jurisprudence of the Tribunal is consistent that Rule 92 bis

20     and Rule 92 ter and 92 quater are concerned solely with the admission of

21     statements prepared for a criminal investigation or for criminal

22     proceedings.  And the principal decision in which the purpose of Rule

23     92 bis is considered is the decision on interlocutory appeal concerning

24     Rule 92 bis(c) of the 7th of June, 2002, by the Appeals Chamber in the

25     Galic trial, and paragraphs 28 to 31 make it absolutely clear that Rule

Page 18842

 1     92 bis was intended to cover documents made in relation to pending or

 2     anticipated legal proceedings.  Now, Rule 92 ter which was enacted after

 3     Rule 92 bis falls into the same category.  Your Honours have provided

 4     guidelines to the parties in this case.  I'm referring to the additional

 5     guidelines which were handed down on the 19th of May, 2010, the decision

 6     on guidelines for the admission of evidence through witnesses.  At

 7     paragraph 25 of that order, Your Honours have set down the additional

 8     guidelines.  Guideline 25(e) concerns the circumstances in which a party

 9     may confront a witness with the witness statement or the transcript of

10     prior testimony of another witness from another case before the Tribunal,

11     so 25(E) is concerned exclusively with proceedings before this Tribunal.

12     Of course, those are general guidelines and Your Honours have also taken

13     a consistent position that documents taken by, for example, RS MUP

14     authorities during the war are documents prepared in the course of a

15     criminal investigation and therefore fall within the general prohibition

16     on using a witness to get around the lex specialis of Rule 92 bis, 92 ter

17     or 92 quater.

18             Your Honours' additional guidelines do set out the general rule

19     which is that a party should tender a piece of evidence through a witness

20     who is either the author of that piece or who can speak to its origins

21     and/or content.  The tendering party shall demonstrate some nexus between

22     the witness and the document before offering the document into evidence.

23     You've also ruled that there will be no blanket prohibition on the

24     admission of evidence simply on the grounds that the purported author of

25     the evidence has not been called to testify.

Page 18843

 1             Now, in this case, there is clearly no prohibition the admission

 2     of this evidence simply because the TV interviewer or Mr. Stanic have not

 3     been called to testify.  The question is whether we have demonstrated,

 4     first, that it is relevant and probative.  In my submission, it's

 5     relevant because it concerns the circumstances of the takeover of Foca in

 6     April 1992.  It's probative because it advances the Prosecution's case

 7     that the takeover was co-ordinated, among others, by the Crisis Staff and

 8     the military, and that it advances the Prosecution's case that the

 9     purpose of the takeover was to rid Foca of its non-Serb population.

10     Furthermore, the witness was present in Foca at the relevant period.  He

11     observed members of the Crisis Staff of Foca attend a meeting on the

12     evening of the 26th of April, 1992, at Velecevo and the -- that evidence

13     corroborates what Stanic said about the takeover of Foca being more or

14     less complete by the 25th of April, 1992.  What Stanic says about the

15     co-ordination between the army and the Crisis Staff in the takeover, and

16     also what Stanic says in relation to, you know, ridding Foca of the

17     annoying sound of the muezzin singing from the minaret.  So in my

18     submission, the witness is clearly in the right place, and with his

19     career background, he's qualified to comment on military matters, and we

20     have demonstrated a sufficient basis --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.  He's reading into it.

22     This was not uttered.  If Mr. Gaynor is testifying, then it's another

23     matter but that's not what we heard from the witness.

24             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, I haven't --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Don't intervene while the other party is making its

Page 18844

 1     submission.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And when am I going to

 3     cross-examine Mr. Gaynor?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No.  He's not giving his evidence.  Yes, please

 5     continue.

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  Thank you, Mr. President.  In short, the relevant

 7     rule governing the admission of this evidence is Rule 99(c).  The

 8     question is:  Is it relevant?  Is it probative?  And has the Prosecution

 9     demonstrated some nexus between the witness and the evidence before

10     offering it into evidence?  And in my submission, the answer to those

11     three questions is yes.  For that reason, it should be admitted.

12             Thank you, Mr. President.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, maybe Mr. --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             Yes.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Maybe Mr. Tieger can back me up on this, but it's

17     my recollection that we've already dealt with this identical issue in

18     another instance where video interview after the fact was taken, and I

19     believe that you ruled that that was not admissible, that that was a

20     statement of a third party.  I don't know if Mr. Tieger recalls that.

21             MR. TIEGER:  Actually do I recall that, Mr. President, because if

22     we are thinking about the same instance, because I believe at that time I

23     had raised a concern that this matter was belatedly raised, and had asked

24     for such matters, such objections, to be raised previously or as early as

25     possible so we could research the matter more fully, and Mr. Robinson

Page 18845

 1     raised the same objection.  Thereafter, I had the opportunity to go back

 2     and see the history behind this objection and discovered that in May of

 3     2010, a similar issue had arisen, that is a videotaped interview that was

 4     proffered by the Defence and argued by Mr. Robinson that the witness had

 5     provided a sufficient nexus to the comments on the interview, that it had

 6     confirmed his basic knowledge of the person who was giving the interview

 7     and had purported to affirm some of the underlying statements and that

 8     document was admitted at Mr. Robinson's instance.

 9             So it's true that this was raised before.  I had raised concerns

10     about the fact that we didn't have an opportunity to fully look at the

11     back drop to it, and when I did, I found that the opposite was true, that

12     the Defence had taken the contrary position previously when it was a

13     matter -- when it was a document they wanted in.  I don't think there is

14     any question but that the factors outlined by Mr. Gaynor are accurate.

15     We -- his position is completely correct with respect to the proffer

16     here.

17             I would also note that this is the kind of document that would be

18     appropriate, in my submission, for bar table submission by virtue of the

19     fact that we have an executor of SDS policies talking about the reason

20     why those policies were implemented.  It's hard to imagine, in fact, more

21     relevant and probative information on its face for the Trial Chamber to

22     consider.  So for many reasons, we would assert this document is fully

23     admissible, not the least of which is that that's the position taken by

24     the Defence when this issue was first broached and now that it's a

25     document they don't want in, they have taken a contrary position.

Page 18846

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just for food for thought, Mr. Gaynor, do you see a

 2     difference between the situation in which the witness confirmed the

 3     content of the interview and in the case in which the witness did not?

 4             MR. GAYNOR:  In my submission, I believe in both cases, the words

 5     of Stanic would be admissible.  The reason being this:  If we had asked a

 6     witness, not necessarily this witness, Did you see Mr. Stanic on

 7     television, he said, Yes, and we said, What did he say?  And the witness

 8     then recounted to the best of his memory what the witness had said, that

 9     hearsay evidence would be admissible under the Rules of this Tribunal.

10     Now, what we have here is the original recording of Stanic's words, so

11     Your Honours have an opportunity to observe Stanic himself, listen to

12     every single word that he said in the original, which is a far more

13     reliable version of what he said, than simply asking a witness what he

14     had said.  For those reasons I believe that whether the witness agrees

15     with what Stanic said is accurate or whether he takes the view that it is

16     inaccurate, it is admissible in both instances.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

18             MR. TIEGER:  And, Mr. President, if I could add to that slightly.

19     It may depend on the position of the declarant.  So if the declarant, as

20     in this case, is an SDS official outlining the policy of the party as it

21     was pursued, that has its own independent value, that doesn't require,

22     I would say, a witness to affirm his own independent observations of the

23     reflections of that policy on the ground in contrast to another witness

24     who is not so positioned and whose declarations don't, on their own, have

25     such a powerful probative value.

Page 18847

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, can I just make one more

 2     small reply.  Just thinking about yesterday, you remember when we had the

 3     document where this Commander Alagic had been interviewed in 1993 about

 4     events in Sanski Most that had taken place in 1991, it was interview by

 5     someone in Republika Srpska, and first of all, you chastised Dr. Karadzic

 6     for putting the third party statements to a witness.  That statement had

 7     actually said that the witness was involved in persuading him -- or, it

 8     referred directly to the witness's conduct during the events, and you

 9     didn't admit it over objection by the Prosecutor because it was a

10     statement of a third party and it was taken after the fact.  It wasn't

11     contemporaneous.  And that's been basically the rule.  We didn't really

12     even complain about that.  Now the Prosecution wants to change the rule

13     and have you admit statements of people after the fact that are not

14     contemporaneous and I don't see any basis for changing the rules of the

15     game in mid-stream.  How many times have you told Dr. Karadzic, Call this

16     witness, call Prlic, call this one, as a response to when he's putting

17     third party statements to a witness and we asked for them to be admitted.

18     It's time to tell them, Call Stanic.  Thank you.

19             MR. GAYNOR:  Mr. President, can I make two responses to that,

20     with your leave.  First of all, the vast majority of statements put by

21     Mr. Karadzic to witnesses are witness statements taken by investigative

22     authorities.  The second point is this, and it may not necessarily apply

23     to the documents Mr. Robinson has just raised, and that is some of these

24     statements put by Mr. Karadzic to witnesses are witnesses taken by RS MUP

25     investigators of Muslim prisoners of war during the conflict, and there

Page 18848

 1     has been considerable evidence provided to the Chamber about the

 2     interrogation methods used by the RS MUP during the conflict, and such

 3     statements may well be inadmissible under Rule 95.  But as a general

 4     matter, we are not asking the Trial Chamber to change the rules.  We are

 5     stating that a television interview of a person does not fall within the

 6     lex specialis of Rule 92 bis or 92 ter, and it falls within 89(C) 6c and

 7     should be considered in accordance with the guidelines that the

 8     Trial Chamber has handed down.  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber wishes to issue a more informed decision

11     on this, and we will put this matter under its advisement.  We will come

12     back to this issue in due course.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, are you ready to start your cross-examination?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies.  Good

15     afternoon, your Excellencies, good afternoon to everyone.

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, witness.

18        A.   Good afternoon.

19        Q.   I would like to cover as quickly as possible the issues you

20     discussed in examination-in-chief.  So, Mr. Ostojic, according to you,

21     objected about you being among Ustashas, had his exact words were that

22     were you among Ustashas and balijas.  Is it true that Mr. Izetbegovic

23     knew exactly which faith you were of and what ethnicity you were of, and

24     that that did not mean automatically that you were to be among Ustashas?

25        A.   I have nothing to do with Izetbegovic.

Page 18849

 1        Q.   No, no.  I meant Ostojic.

 2        A.   Well, Ostojic said, You went and are now among Ustashas and

 3     balijas.  And I told him that I was with the JNA and I had nothing to do

 4     with the SDS.

 5        Q.   Let me tell you, do you know that Mr. Ostojic was married to a

 6     Muslim woman and that he never ever used the word balija?

 7        (redacted) and there was

 8     an unpleasant situation.  I know that his wife was a Muslim.  I also knew

 9     who his father was because that's what I learned from my late father.

10     But these are the words that he addressed to me.  He personally said that

11     to me.

12        Q.   Thank you.  We saw that the Crisis Staff, the Serb Crisis Staff,

13     was established on the 3rd of April, 1992.  Do you know when the

14     Muslim Crisis Staff was set up in Foca?

15        A.   As an active military serviceman, I was never interested in when

16     the SDS Crisis Staff was set up, nor that one of the SDA, or of any other

17     party in Bosnia-Herzegovina or in the former Yugoslavia for that matter.

18     As an active military serviceman, I received orders from the

19     777th Logistics Base in Sarajevo which in turn received its orders from

20     Belgrade.  So I was not interested in these things in the least.

21     However, my colleague, who was some 3 kilometres away at another

22     warehouse, up until the 2nd of April, he went on a daily basis to the

23     Municipal Assembly in Foca where there were members of the SDA and SDS

24     party.  There was the Crisis Staff there as well, or members of the

25     Crisis Staff were present, mostly it was Stanic, this is what my

Page 18850

 1     colleague told me.  They tried to calm the tensions and to ensure that a

 2     war would not break out and that they would find peaceful solutions to

 3     the problems.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether -- do you think that all of those

 5     members of the Crisis Staff whose names were on the list shown to you by

 6     Mr. Gaynor, do you think that all of them are members of the SDS or

 7     perhaps some were not?

 8        A.   There are still political parties in Bosnia-Herzegovina and the

 9     SDS is one of them.  Currently, it is possible for somebody of another

10     ethnicity to be a member of the SDS.  I can give you an example of

11     Desnica [phoen], who is now a member of the SDA and I know another Serb

12     from Sarajevo who is a member of the SDA.  However, at that time I didn't

13     know about these matters, I wasn't interested, and I never heard that

14     somebody of another faith could have joined the SDS or the SDA for that

15     matter.

16        Q.   Thank you.  What I wanted to ask you is this:  Whether all

17     members of the Serb Crisis Staff were necessarily members of the SDS as

18     well, or perhaps there were some Serbs there who were members of another

19     political party.  That's what I asked you.

20        A.   Well, the Crisis Staffs depended on political parties, and how

21     they envisioned them.  There wasn't just the Army of Republika Srpska

22     during the war but there were also people who remained there after the

23     29th of May who used to be active members of the JNA -- or rather, the

24     Army of Yugoslavia and then there were members of the paramilitary

25     formations who used to come from Serbia who were not members of political

Page 18851

 1     parties, so it doesn't mean that members of the Crisis Staff were

 2     necessarily members of the SDS.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that Foca, before the arrival of Turks

 4     and for a while after the Turks arrived, had a different name?  Do you

 5     know what name it had?

 6        A.   I don't know.  I would probably make a mistake if I were to tell

 7     you.

 8        Q.   Well, I will give you a proposition.  Do you agree that it was

 9     called Foca -- Hoca?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And there is a place name, identical place name, in Kosovo.  It

12     exists as well?

13        A.   Well, that was a transit town in Turkish times.  I've heard of

14     that name, but I never really researched it and I really never was

15     interested in the meanings of words and so on.

16        Q.   Thank you.  You said today that Serbs gave Serb prefix to place

17     names.  Are there perhaps Bosnian prefixes that remain, for example,

18     Bosanska Krupa, and so on?  So were there places that had in their name

19     Bosnian prefix and that -- were such cases known to you and were they

20     also similarly places where Serbs lived and where Serbs added Serbian

21     prefix?

22        A.   Yes.  It's true.  In the old Yugoslavia, there were place names

23     that had prefix "Bosanski" or "Bosnian."  And before this war ended, some

24     place names were changed.  In cases where Serbs had taken up that

25     territory, they assigned their own names to places based on their own

Page 18852

 1     decisions which were published in the Official Gazette and so on.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that during the Austro-Hungarian empire,

 3     we and Croatia were part of the same country called Austro-Hungarian

 4     empire?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Do you agree that a number of towns on the Sava River were a

 7     single entity, Kostajnica was one town, and then after the

 8     Austro-Hungarian empire fell apart, it split into two parts, the Croatian

 9     part and Bosnian part.  And the same could be said of Brod and Samac and

10     some other places; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes, that's correct.

12        Q.   Do you distinguish between the commander of the Crisis Staff and

13     commander of the Territorial Defence?

14        A.   The commander of the Territorial Defence could exist in a certain

15     territory, whereas the commander of the Crisis Staff could be in charge

16     of several areas, not necessarily just one.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that Mr. Stanic mentioned the

18     following:  He said, Had we not done that, we would have experienced the

19     same thing we experienced during World War II?  Do you agree that the

20     Serbs and Muslims exterminated each other in World War II and that Foca

21     was a particularly bloody spot during that war, civil war --

22             MR. GAYNOR:  Objection, this is irrelevant.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   -- and religious war?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think it's irrelevant.  On

Page 18853

 1     the basis of that, things happened in 1992 on the basis of the experience

 2     gained beforehand and the witness -- or rather, Stanic mentioned that.

 3     That is what we believe, that this war was a continuation of the

 4     Second World War.  That is what we fully believe and the witness can say

 5     yes or no.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  In the clip, Mr. Stanic referred to that experience.

 7     So for clarification, that question can be asked and answered.  Could you

 8     answer the question, Mr. Witness?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat that question again.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is it correct that during the Second World War, the Serbs and

12     Muslims had a terrible experience exterminating each other?  What was

13     particularly drastic and bloody was the past of Foca?

14        A.   My father, my late father, was a veteran.  Foca suffered after

15     the fall of the Drina bridge that had been destroyed.  The entire

16     population of Foca fell victim to the Chetniks.  Most of these Chetniks

17     came from Montenegro and from Serbia.  I can say that the families of

18     Popovic, Dragovic from Foca, who were locals from Foca, they were not in

19     those units, rather they were in the Partizan units.  So that statement

20     is not correct.  It's not correct that the Serbs and Muslims were

21     slaughtering each other during the war.  It was the Chetnik units that

22     were slaughtering the Muslim people.  And along with the Muslim people,

23     all of those who were helping them, the Muslim people, or rather, who

24     were against the Chetniks.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I allowed you to put that question but if you pursue

Page 18854

 1     that line, there is no end.  So come to the issues.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right, Excellency.  I didn't

 3     want to establish whose fault it was, but it's a well known thing that

 4     the Muslims first sided with the Ustashas, and that was the reason why

 5     the Chetniks sought their revenge, and the gentleman, the witness,

 6     expanded on this topic.  I just wanted to say who did what to the other

 7     side without trying to establish who was guilty.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Sir, do you know who Alija Siljak is?  During this war and before

10     the war, was he not a citizen of Foca who was in the Ustasha movement of

11     the Croatian rights movement in Zagreb?  Was he not the vice-president or

12     something like that?

13        A.   Alija Siljak?  I was born in Foca.  He's a neighbour of mine.

14     His father and his entire family, one brother and several sisters, are

15     die-hard Muslims.  Alija was an extremist who went to Croatia, and he

16     says that he's one of the greatest Ustashas.  He's a man with a criminal

17     record, and he had nothing in common with his parents.  Quite simply, he

18     strayed away from his own people.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that during the war in Croatia, and

20     before our war, quite a few young Foca Muslims went to Alija Siljak to

21     take part in combat against Serbs, to train and to bring weapons?  If you

22     didn't know anything about it you can say so, just tell us.

23        A.   I did not know about that because I was not in Foca at the time.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know how the negotiations on the

25     transformation of Bosnia were going in order to have the Serbs accept

Page 18855

 1     Bosnia's independence and how the negotiations went at the level of the

 2     republic and at the level of Foca, and that it was envisaged that there

 3     would be two municipalities, one Serb and one Muslim in Foca?

 4        A.   Since at that time I hardly ever watched the news and followed

 5     that, because I was in Pale for a while, but then I was immediately

 6     seconded to Filipovici, so I wasn't really interested in this political

 7     aspect, whether the division would go this way or that way, or whether

 8     things would happen the way they actually did in Sarajevo, that there is

 9     this eastern Sarajevo and whatever else.  I was not really following all

10     of that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Is it not true that to this day, there is a Muslim

12     municipality that is called Foca Ustikolina?

13        A.   Yes.  There is Ustikolina who is 12 kilometres away from Foca.

14     That is where the population is Muslim, that is to say the population

15     that was expelled from Foca and from around Foca.  The real citizens of

16     Foca rebuilt their houses, do not want to have them sold.  That's what

17     they have been saying.  Quite simply, they want to have their own homes

18     in Foca.  Quite a few real Focaks returned to Foca, but only elderly

19     people.  Young people haven't returned.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know or do you not know that gunfire came from

21     the mosques in Foca, sniper fire, and also fire from heavy weaponry?

22        A.   This is some information that you received from someone, and that

23     is not correct.  My colleague who went every day to attend meetings did

24     not provide that kind of information to me.  We were together until the

25     25th of April.  The 25th of April.  That could not have happened until

Page 18856

 1     the 25th of April.  In addition to that, all the weapons that people had

 2     at their homes were handed over in order to avoid a fight.  I, as a unit,

 3     I didn't have any snipers.  How could the Muslims have snipers or

 4     somebody else.  If the JNA did not have snipers in that territory, how

 5     could somebody else?  Well, perhaps they may have gotten them from

 6     somewhere but I don't know.  I haven't heard about it.

 7        Q.   Do you know who Meho Karisik nicknamed Kemo is?

 8        A.   I don't know.

 9        Q.   Haven't you heard that he's a general of the

10     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?  At the time he was the Commander-in-Chief of

11     the Patriotic League.  Meho Karisik, a famous person, a celebrity, have

12     you not heard of him?

13        A.   I heard of him in Sarajevo but I thought that you were not

14     talking about that period, April.  I mean Meho Karisik was in Sarajevo,

15     although after that, I mean, after Foca I didn't go to Sarajevo so

16     I cannot say exactly who this man was.  I heard the name, though.

17        Q.   Thank you.  This is what Mr. Karisik said in the "Oslobodjenje"

18     daily on the 3rd of May, 1997, on page 21:  Just before the war, I was in

19     Foca twice.  Foca had quite a lot of weapons.  Why was -- were these

20     weapons not used?  We are going to find out later who the culprit was.

21     Secondly, we sent two co-ordinators to Foca in order to carry out

22     military preparations for the war.  However the people from Foca said

23     that they knew how to do it without them.  Probably they mistrusted

24     military personnel.

25             Now you are saying that there were no weapons in Foca, and the

Page 18857

 1     general says that Foca had enough weapons.  However, they didn't want to

 2     accept these officers.  What do you say to that?

 3             MR. GAYNOR:  Can I object for one moment.  The "Oslobodjenje"

 4     article that Mr. Karadzic is referring to is not on the list of

 5     cross-examination documents referred -- presented to us by the Defence,

 6     and if he's going to show it to read large parts of it, perhaps he could

 7     show it on the screen to the witness.  Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond?  I'm reading this

 9     from this book that is called "The black Book," and there is a quote from

10     "Oslobodjenje."  I didn't really want to bring this up but the witness

11     denied that the Muslims were armed in Foca.  Had he not disputed that,

12     I would not have brought this up.  When the time comes, we are going to

13     deal with this through another witness.  I just wanted to see whether the

14     witness still claims that Foca had been unarmed.  A Muslim general says

15     that Foca had been armed.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Did you give notice to the Prosecution of the --

17     your potential use of that "Black Book," Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, no.  This is a book that is

19     full of quotations, and it is an accurate quotation.  I wouldn't have

20     brought it up had the witness not said something that -- or rather,

21     disputed something that we all knew, or at least I thought we all knew

22     that, we all knew that Foca was armed, and how.  I am just reading out to

23     him what the general said in contrast to what he's been saying to us.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We are discussing the proper disclosure of material

25     you are going to use in your cross-examination.  You should give a proper

Page 18858

 1     notice to the other party.  Consult Mr. Robinson.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, if the witness is

 3     denying something that I did not think he would deny, how do I deal with

 4     that?  I did not think that that would be denied.  It is a generally

 5     known thing that Foca was armed.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Can I answer?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If someone was armed and if that

 9     someone is then attacked by somebody else, how come the one who is armed

10     escapes and then Foca falls within six days?  So if I have weapons and if

11     I can defend myself and if I have the right kind of morale in my unit, at

12     any rate there has to be fighting.  And one part after the other should

13     be liberated or taken or whatever, so the morale in the SDA was zero

14     compared to the SDS that was carrying out the attacks.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  We have statements from the SDA where it says the

17     entire leadership had fled, Saja, this well known Saja packed up and

18     left.  He left people in the lurch.  And if the Muslims had been unarmed,

19     the Serbs would not have needed six days to take over.  They would have

20     needed only one day; right?

21        A.   Well, maybe.  But you know what, well actually you know better

22     than I do, all the Serbs who used to go to school with me who did not

23     want to attack Foca ended up at the KP Dom, the correctional facility.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, today you mentioned that this person said that

25     he had a headache from the prayer coming from the mosque.  Do you know

Page 18859

 1     that to this day, there is a recommendation issued by Catholic, Orthodox

 2     and Islamic religious leaders that bells should not ring too loud and

 3     that prayers should not be called to in this very loud manner either,

 4     also discussions were held on having a 50/50 balance.  However, to this

 5     day, for instance, there is this discussion in Bijeljina because to this

 6     day the imam in Bijeljina is playing this call to prayer that is too

 7     loud.  Do you know about that?

 8        A.   Yes.  I know.  There is -- there are some situations where the

 9     volume is shattering.  However, what can we do?  People have to come to

10     their senses, and realise that in accordance with their very own religion

11     they should not disturb the other population that lives in the

12     neighbourhood.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know about this incident, or rather, crisis

14     in interethnic relations that broke out in connection with Focatrans

15     before the elections in August and September 1990, when the Serbs lost

16     all rights in Focatrans because that man, Kaliman, the director, did not

17     want to respect their rights?  Do you remember that crisis?  Did you know

18     about it?

19        A.   I knew about it from the media.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember, or actually, have you heard about

21     this or were you present when the founding assembly was held in -- of the

22     SDS in Foca and I attended, and Mr. Muhamed Cengic attended as well, he

23     is a native of Foca, and together with the Muslim delegation, I threw

24     flowers into the Drina from the bridge where both Muslims and Serbs had

25     been victims before?

Page 18860

 1        A.   I did not really follow that so I cannot say.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Let me not mention the name of the place that you

 3     went to from Pale.  You were sent to Foca; is that right?

 4        A.   It was Filipovici that I was assigned to.  Not Foca.

 5        Q.   All right.  Was it your understanding that it would have been a

 6     good thing for you to be there in a view of your ethnic and religious

 7     affiliation?

 8        A.   Perhaps that's what they thought but I don't think that that was

 9     the thinking of the JNA.  On the other hand, this is a purely technical

10     warehouse, and I'm a technical person.  So it is only guards that would

11     belong to other parts of the military.  As for all the other personnel

12     there, they were technical people.

13        Q.   Thank you.  When did you actually arrive there in Filipovici?

14        A.   I arrived when the order was written up.

15        Q.   What date?  If that is a delicate matter we can move into private

16     session.

17        A.   It is not delicate at all.  On the 15th of January.

18        Q.   The 15th of January 1992; right?  Did you live in town or did you

19     live at the warehouse?

20        A.   I lived at the warehouse.

21        Q.   During that time, did you have insight into what was happening in

22     town and in the municipality in general?

23        A.   I had no insight until the 2nd of April when in accordance with

24     the orders from our superiors from Sarajevo somebody had to go to Foca.

25     My colleague went, the one who received every -- information every day

Page 18861

 1     and, yes, meetings were held and he conveyed all of this to me.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned in your statements that it was very

 3     difficult to get through to Sarajevo.  In the beginning of March, there

 4     were roadblocks and so on; right?

 5        A.   That's right.

 6        Q.   And you then thought and said that those were the SDS people;

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And what made you think that the SDS had organised the

10     barricades?  Where did you get that information from?

11        A.   Well, it's not information.  It was the actual state of affairs

12     because I was supposed to go back to Filipovici.  I didn't go to work,

13     and -- for three days, and when we stopped at the barricade at Trnovo,

14     you knew whose barricade it was.  In Miljevina, I had some problems and

15     there were police of -- if it wasn't for the police of the JNA I would

16     have terrible problems.  So I knew that there were barricades, people

17     were fleeing towards Montenegro in their private cars, in their firms'

18     cars.  They were running to the south.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Now, these people at the barricades, by the economic

20     school in Sarajevo, you said, and then in other places too, did they have

21     any masks on their faces?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know any of them personally?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And then you said in your statement of the

Page 18862

 1     23rd of December, 1995, which is on page 4 -- or rather, paragraph 4,

 2     from April 1996 -- well, you said that you came across the barricades

 3     which were erected by the terrorists of the SDS.  Is that what you said?

 4        A.   Well, you could say so, yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you equate the Serbs were the SDS?  Do you

 6     think it's one and the same thing?

 7        A.   No, God forbid.

 8        Q.   You say that in the same statement -- in the same statement of

 9     1995, page 3, paragraph 2, you say there that you came across -- you were

10     stopped at Miljevina by armed SDS people with Chetnik insignia.  Did they

11     actually have Chetnik insignia?

12        A.   Well, they always did.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that at the beginning of April, when the

14     crisis broke out, Professor Koljevic crossed the mountains which were

15     snow-covered, and him and his group were almost shot as -- the

16     vice-president, premier of Republika Srpska, a member of the

17     BH Presidency because they were considered traitors?  Did you ever hear

18     about that?

19        A.   Yes.  Those are the kinds of things that happened in wartime.

20     But you couldn't command all the units so that's what happens.  So it's

21     not strange.  I don't find it unusual.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. GAYNOR:  Your Honour, I'd like to raise an objection, I did

24     it as fast as I could.  A few moments ago, Mr. Karadzic referred to

25     page 4 of the witness's statement of 1996 which is 65 ter 21 -- 22158,

Page 18863

 1     and said the witness had referred to barricades under the control of SDS

 2     terrorists, I believe he said.  Now those words do not appear in the

 3     witness's statement.  He says barricades at Mojmilo which was under the

 4     control of the SDS.  Now, I invite Mr. Karadzic to direct us to where he

 5     found the words "SDS terrorists."  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Terrorists of the SDS.  And witness confirmed in a

 7     way that he can say so.  Could you give the reference, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             MR. KARADZIC:  [Interpretation].

 9        Q.   That, then, is footnote 39, and it says the statement of the 23rd

10     of December, 1995.  Page 3, paragraph 1.  And the statement goes on.  The

11     next statement is the 1996 statement, 00391491 is the page number,

12     paragraph 4, and it refers to the barricades at Trnovo by the Treskavica

13     hotel where they had less problems.  And then in Miljevina which is the

14     next bit, it's the 1995 statement, page 3, paragraph 2, that in

15     Miljevina, when they arrived there, they found armed SDS people there,

16     they were called Elezi and they had Chetnik insignias; is that right?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  The issue was whether witness referred to the

19     terminology of terrorists of the SDS.  So he's asking for the reference

20     for that.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's in that first 1995

22     statement, page 3, paragraph 1.  The 23rd of December, 1995, page 3,

23     paragraph 1.  1D04224 is the number.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Are you satisfied with that, Mr. Gaynor?

25             MR. GAYNOR:  I'll check that, Mr. President, and I'll come back

Page 18864

 1     to you if there is any issue.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you know that the SDA issued, to its followers, instructions

 6     and directives to block the JNA barracks and to attack the JNA barracks?

 7        A.   No.  Because I didn't collaborate with the SDA.  I just

 8     co-operated with -- well, I wanted to call a meeting between the SDS and

 9     the SDA twice, representatives from the warehouse, but I didn't succeed

10     in reconciling the two sides.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you happen to note whose barricades in

12     Sarajevo existed, were there only Serb barricades or were there Muslim

13     barricades in Sarajevo too?

14        A.   When I was supposed to report for duty in Sarajevo, well, I set

15     out, first of all, towards Trnovo, and I was unsuccessful.  The barricade

16     that was there was in the eastern section of Sarajevo, and that was a

17     Serb barricade.  The next day, following orders, I was supposed to go

18     across Bascarsija to Pale, but I didn't manage to do that because there

19     was fighting and the tunnel was unsafe.  On day three, I tried to go

20     towards Kosmice [phoen] and Trbelic [phoen], but I didn't succeed in

21     doing that either because there was shooting once again.  Whether it was

22     from both sides, I can't say, but anyway I went back.  On the fourth day,

23     I set out towards Trnovo and that's where I had problems.  They asked

24     that the chief of the municipality in Trnovo be replaced so we were

25     stopped.  We had a big problem.  And the barricades in Trnovo were Serb

Page 18865

 1     barricades.  In Miljevina there were Serb barricades again.  There were

 2     no other barricades because I reached the barracks with ten military

 3     policemen.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, is it true that the Marshal Tito Barracks is

 5     located practically in the centre of Sarajevo, between the museum and the

 6     railway station and that it is in the Muslim part of Sarajevo, if I can

 7     put it that way?

 8        A.   Well, yes, that is true.  That's its location, proper location.

 9     However, you can't say that it's the Muslim section of town because

10     behind the barracks, behind the Marshal Tito barracks, there is a

11     monument to Tito, and to the left of that, and you know this full well,

12     there are some apartment houses where there were active military

13     personnel living, high-ranking officers, in fact, and you know that much

14     better than I do.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  If it is convenient, shall we take a break now?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just ask one more question

18     before we break?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Is it true that you had difficulties, together with Kovacevic, or

22     whoever you were with, to reach the barracks?  And is it true that the

23     barracks were blocked by the Muslim forces, the Green Berets and the

24     Patriotic League?

25        A.   No.

Page 18866

 1        Q.   Well, did you have difficulty in reaching the barracks?

 2        A.   No.  The difficulties I had was in Miljevina, whether they would

 3     let us through or not.  Because in Miljevina, they picked and chose

 4     whether they would let you go towards -- on towards Montenegro because

 5     people were fleeing.  So I arrived there with the military policemen that

 6     I mentioned and they were armed, and everybody setting up this blockade,

 7     all of us, the Serbs, the Croats and the military police was under my

 8     command, and so there would have been an attack and we would have

 9     defended ourselves.  So they couldn't stop us because they knew that a

10     clash would ensue.

11        Q.   Yes.  Not even Elezi; right?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, did you find that the witness indeed in

13     his statement in December 1995 referred to barricades set up by the SDS

14     terrorists?

15             MR. GAYNOR:  Yes, I did find that reference, thank you,

16     Mr. President.

17                           [Trial Chamber confers]

18             JUDGE KWON:  We will take a break for half an hour and resume at

19     3.35.

20                           --- Recess taken at 3.02 p.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 3.37 p.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]  Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Witness, is it true that you thought that the military security

Page 18867

 1     and military police were surveying you and controlling you?

 2        A.   I didn't give it much thought.

 3        Q.   But you said something similar, that you were monitored by the

 4     military police in Ustikolina.  You say that in your statement of the

 5     20th and 21st of April, 1996, on page 00391491, paragraph 2.  Did you

 6     think that they mistrusted you?

 7        A.   Well, if I said that in my statement, then quite possibly yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that for a whole year before the war

 9     broke out, the Muslims and Croats did not do their regular military

10     service, nor did they respond to the call-up for reservists, the

11     mobilisation of reservists and the call-up there?

12        A.   As far as I know, in Donja Skladiste, next to me, the lower

13     warehouse, the Muslims were reservists and it was only on the basis of an

14     order from the SDA on the 1st of January, 1992, that they all left the

15     JNA as reservists.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you mind?

17        A.   No, because I didn't want to accept duties that weren't the

18     duties of regular soldiers so I just had regular soldiers within my

19     composition, I didn't have any reservists so it didn't effect me much,

20     except for my deputy, he was a reservist and a civilian.  All the others

21     were soldiers of different ethnicity.  I had Albanians, Macedonians,

22     Serbs from Serbia proper, Serbs from Bosnia and Muslims.  It was the

23     regular -- well, they were doing their regular military service which was

24     extended for two or three months.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that at one point in time, while you were

Page 18868

 1     in Ustikolina, the Muslim reservists left the JNA?

 2        A.   Yes, they did.  They left the JNA, that's quite true, and as far

 3     as logistics was concerned, I was linked to the lower barracks so I knew

 4     exactly what was going on down there in the barracks, and I was on good

 5     terms with the commander who was down there.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And it was a fuel warehouse, was it not, and other

 7     military equipment was stored there as well?

 8        A.   It was just a fuel warehouse, which following an order given in

 9     December from the federal state organs of Yugoslavia, it was transferred

10     for the army, army purposes, for the JNA, and they were -- it was

11     supposed to serve the UN units, supply the UN units in that area.  That

12     was the purpose of it.

13        Q.   Thank you.  May we have D400 briefly on e-court, please.  I'd

14     just like to remind you and ask you whether as an officer, you knew that

15     an order was issued to block the barracks of the JNA units.  On the

16     12th of April was the first one, the second one on the 22nd of April, and

17     the third one on the 29th of April.

18        A.   No, I did not know about that.

19        Q.   Can we take a look at the document now.  You have both versions,

20     Serbian and English.  And this is dated the 29th of April.  So this is

21     from the minister.  The minister of internal affairs elaborating the

22     directive given by Hasanefendic.  Is it true that on the 8th April, the

23     command of the Territorial Defence of -- Vukosavljevic [phoen], a Serb

24     was replaced and Hasanefendic, a Muslim, appointed in his place?  Is that

25     true?

Page 18869

 1        A.   I'm not aware of that.  So I can't say either way.  I don't know.

 2        Q.   Can we -- well, take a look at where it says, I am ordering,

 3     I hereby order, that paragraph, so your colleagues from the JNA, did they

 4     warn you of it, that this order would be issued?  And it was given on the

 5     12th of April.  This is an elaboration at the MUP.

 6        A.   No they didn't draw my attention to that because in Sarajevo at

 7     the command, every day at 8.00 we would report, and it was the duty of

 8     the commander down there at the barracks to inform others of the

 9     information -- the commander in Sarajevo of the information received.  So

10     we had to inform and brief Sarajevo every day on events up until the 22nd

11     of April.

12        Q.   But the telephone lines were down after the 22nd of April; is

13     that right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Were you able to go to Foca and call from Foca, or

16     were those lines down too?

17        A.   Well, communication with Foca were operational, but I didn't need

18     to do that because I was on orders from -- it was the commander from

19     Donja, the lower barracks.  He was -- he had orders to go and see what

20     was happening and to report back to the commanders in Sarajevo.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, between Filipovici and Foca, the lines were not

22     down, but between Foca and Sarajevo, the communication lines were down;

23     is that right?

24        A.   I don't know.  I think the switchboard, the exchange, was manned

25     by seven soldiers and an officer, senior officer.  Now, what happened to

Page 18870

 1     that, I'm not sure.  My telephone line was not working to Sarajevo or

 2     with Foca.  So on the 23rd I wasn't able to call Foca either.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, is it true and correct that in the second half

 4     of April, a helicopter arrived and a Muslim officer and another Serb

 5     lower-ranking officer brought salaries with them?

 6        A.   Yes.  They brought in the salaries, and they bought some sanitary

 7     material because the previous day, the helicopter which was supposed to

 8     fly in all these medical supplies was stopped in Foca.  Anyway, it

 9     wasn't -- the medical supplies were not handed over for the purposes of

10     the JNA.  So the next door warehouse to me received very little medical

11     supplies.

12        Q.   Mr. Hasanefendic came together in that helicopter with another

13     Serb?

14        A.   Yes, that's right.  That's how it was.

15        Q.   Is it true that they came in a helicopter because due to

16     roadblocks and wartime operations, one couldn't travel in a car?

17        A.   No.  It seems that the itinerary that the helicopter was taking

18     and that was Sarajevo-Pale-Foca-Filipovici-Visegrad and then back to Pale

19     and Sarajevo, Rajlovac, dictated that they come in a helicopter.  In such

20     situations when one anticipate something it is quicker and more efficient

21     to travel that way.  In addition to that, they received an order from

22     Sarajevo, not from just anybody.  There were people in charge of security

23     who were there to evaluate whether transport should be made by this means

24     or by some other means.

25        Q.   That was on 19th or 20th of April and the order came from the JNA

Page 18871

 1     command in Sarajevo, the command of the 2nd Military District; right?

 2        A.   Yes.  That was the 2nd Military District, 777th Logistics Base.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, 65 ter 22158, on page 5,

 4     paragraph 7, you say that the refugees kept coming into your facility.

 5     And that the refugees were threatened by paramilitary groups, not by

 6     regular forces.  It was you who took in refugees as well as your deputy,

 7     Zoran Milicevic.  Is this Milicevic a Serb?

 8        A.   Yes.  All soldiers remained faithful to the JNA.  My deputy was

 9     Zoran, and we took in refugees because there had been an order on the

10     12th of April saying that we could take in refugees.  Prior to that, on

11     the 6th of April, I talked to my superior, Zoran Jovanovic,

12     lieutenant-colonel, in Sarajevo, and he told me that he would be sending

13     me a written order stating that I could house refugees.  He also said

14     that he would guarantee in case there was an attack on either of the

15     warehouses, that they would react, that they would evacuate us and the

16     refugees.  Since I had no fax machine, the order arrived at the lower

17     warehouse.  And later on, I had to show this order when some other forces

18     came to take the barracks, and that saved my life.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Would you please look at the same page where it says

20     that the Muslims on the 6th of April 1992 started fleeing from Foca to

21     Gorazde, quite a number of them stopped in my warehouse, that's your

22     warehouse, so these are the refugees that had fled town and had come to

23     you, right, already on the 6th of April?

24        A.   Yes, yes.  No, they actually started coming already on the

25     3rd of April, the refugees.  And they started inquiring whether they

Page 18872

 1     could find shelter with me because they still believed, and this is what

 2     the SDA was saying and Alija, they were still saying that they were

 3     believing in the JNA.  So this is why the people came inquiring whether

 4     they could spend a night in the barracks, to which I told them they could

 5     stay in the houses that were next to the barracks, and that on the

 6     following day they could start doing something.  I had received a verbal

 7     order from my superiors, based on which I took in refugees, I had to

 8     confiscate their weapons first, and if they wanted to leave the warehouse

 9     and go to Gorazde because one couldn't travel to Sarajevo any longer, one

10     had to travel via a forest, and as they were leaving I would give them

11     back their weapons.  They mostly did not have any rifles, just pistols.

12        Q.   So the refugees had some weapons on them and who did they return

13     the weapons to?

14        A.   They didn't return the weapons to me.  I was duty-bound to take

15     their weapons as they arrived in the warehouse and I kept their weapons

16     while they were staying with me.  As they left the warehouse, I would

17     return their weapons to them.  It was mostly pistols.  You know yourself

18     what one can use a pistol for, only for short-distance firing.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you see the next passage where you say in your

20     statement that the Crisis Staff of the SDA, on the 10th of 11th of April,

21     fled from Foca because their life was in danger there?  Do you agree and

22     did you know that the Muslim fighters were quite dissatisfied?  They

23     wrote reports to Izetbegovic saying that they had been betrayed, that the

24     elite had run away, leaving them to fight the Serbs.

25        A.   President of the Municipal Assembly of Foca, Gojo, who in

Page 18873

 1     wartime, in a way, became a commander and was a member of the SDA, he was

 2     among the first to flee to Ustikolina.  One day, after the landing of the

 3     helicopter, I met him for the first time.  He came looking for some

 4     medical supplies, saying that they had nothing at the health centre in

 5     Ustikolina, to which I replied that me and the commander of the other

 6     warehouse received basically very little of the medical supplies, which

 7     were insufficient for us.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that from the -- in the Muslim part of

 9     Foca, the hospital was surrounded, that they were firing at the hospital

10     and that the director of the hospital, Dr. Simo Stankovic, informed via

11     Tanjug that there were bullets flying into the hospital, that the

12     surgical ward had been damaged and that the hospital had been practically

13     completely surrounded?

14        A.   I was informed about Simo Stankovic from the other commander.  I

15     also knew about the case that you described, and when these people came

16     and took all medical supplies from the hospital, I also heard about that.

17     I think that Dr. Simo was almost killed on that occasion and my colleague

18     informed me of all of these events.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that on 8 April, in the evening, there

20     was shooting on the Serb houses and that the house of Dr. Kovac, a

21     dentist, was set on fire, Mico Krnojelac, and some other houses owned by

22     Serbs, that the Green Berets took large parts of town under their

23     control, and that all the way up until the KP Dom, the entire territory

24     was fired at?

25        A.   I didn't know all these details, but, yes, the commander told me

Page 18874

 1     that there was some shooting on some houses near the hospital.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any Serbs who had sought shelter in your

 3     barracks or was it just Muslims?

 4        A.   Among the first group of refugees, there was a Serb.  He was a

 5     relative of a school friend of mine, Stojan.  His name was Ivan and he

 6     was among the first ones to come.  He remained there the entire time

 7     until the barracks was overrun.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And did you hear that prior to the conflict erupting,

 9     there were a lot of Serbs and Muslims, entire families, who had left Foca

10     and that later on, after the fighting calmed down, the Serb authorities

11     issued a public statement inviting all of them to come back?

12        A.   I have heard of that.  However, if one wants to be reasonable, if

13     you want to take a reasonable look at it, to return after the territory

14     after having been expelled from there, after the war had taken place

15     there, to return to the place where there were a lot of newcomers from

16     some other areas, regardless of who had control of the area, whether

17     Serbs or Muslims, I wouldn't recommend anyone to come back without there

18     being a stable system in place.  And to this day we don't have a stable

19     system in Bosnia, even though it is peaceful.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So you speak about people who had come from

21     elsewhere.  You call them paramilitary formations.  Do you have the

22     White Eagles in mind when you say that?  Those White Eagles were headed

23     by Desimir Dida and some other people who were not from Foca.

24        A.   I speak of people who had come in and taken territory.  Dida

25     himself said that he had been tasked with doing that.  He said that his

Page 18875

 1     order was to take up 65 per cent of the territory and to ensure that it

 2     was Serbian.  Those people were against the Yugoslav People's Army and

 3     they wanted to be paid for their services.  They also didn't allow

 4     anybody to disobey their orders, otherwise they would kill them.

 5        Q.   Is it true that you observed, yourself, that they were far more

 6     powerful than Krnojelac and some others, and you stated so in your

 7     testimony?

 8        A.   Yes, because that same Dida told me in the office that Serbs from

 9     Foca were not good fighters, in his view.  Only Serbs from Krajina were

10     good fighters.  And as for the other Serbs, he used an insult when

11     referring to them, and this is what I stated in my statement.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that the SDA Crisis Staff moved to a

13     factory of carpets; is that right?  Was there such a factory?

14        A.   Where did you find that written?

15        Q.   Well, that's something you stated in your statement given on the

16     20th and 21st April, 1996, 003942, paragraph 4.

17             MR. GAYNOR:  I think, Mr. Karadzic, he said SDS Crisis Staff, not

18     SDA Crisis Staff on that one.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No.  It says here, [In English]

20     "They also told him ..."  [No interpretation] [In English] "... was

21     functioning from the factory producing carpets and rugs and they started

22     their own radio station."

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let's upload it.  What's the 65 ter number?

24     April 21st.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 22158.

Page 18876

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We don't broadcast the first page.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 391492.  Three

 3     pages further, or four pages further down.  Now, that should be

 4     paragraph 4.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which paragraph?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It says, "I was also told by them that

 7     Krizni Stab," I take it Crisis Staff SDS, "was functioning from a factory

 8     producing carpet and rugs."

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Was that the SDS Crisis Staff in the carpet factory or the SDA

11     staff?

12        A.   Based on what I heard, they killed a certain number of people,

13     and they mentioned the names, so unless it was a case of the SDA shooting

14     at their own people, I don't think so.  They also said that nobody around

15     the railway station had even a theoretical chance of crossing the bridge.

16        Q.   All right.  And it begins with the words that the Crisis Staff of

17     the SDA escaped from Foca and then they say that the SDS was actually in

18     the carpet factory.  Do you know who was at the carpet factory?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Very well.  So when the refugees arrived in your

21     base, you were cautious, you were worried that White Eagles could attack

22     them; right?

23        A.   I thought somebody could attack them.  I was afraid that there

24     would be a situation where the SDA, who was stationed near the fence of

25     the warehouse, could cause some shooting, and on one night there was

Page 18877

 1     shooting.  So one day I called Suad from the SDA and I told them, We are

 2     not going to shoot at you first and make sure you don't shoot at us,

 3     otherwise there would be huge problems.  Therefore there was never a

 4     single incident while the regular army was in place and while the SDA was

 5     there up until the 26th of April.

 6        Q.   So between the 6th of April until the 26th of April, you hosted

 7     those refugees and you provided for them?

 8        A.   I didn't really host them.  That was no hosting.  Those people

 9     slept on tables, under the tables, I couldn't provide food for them,

10     excuse me, because I received my supplies from the lower barracks.  These

11     people stayed in the houses that were next to the warehouse and they

12     found food there, but it was important for those people to be able to

13     spend a night safely at the warehouse making sure that nobody was killed

14     and so on.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Was there nevertheless some shooting in the area,

16     shooting between Muslims and Serbs, in the vicinity of your base?

17        A.   Yes.  There was shooting.  I sent out my deputy, Zoran, when two

18     Serbs were killed in Gornji Grad.  So I sent out my deputy, Zoran, to see

19     what the situation was, to talk to people, to check with the SDA

20     representative Suljo, what needed to be done.  He did all that together

21     with Vukovic, Drago Vukovic.  However, there was yet another shooting

22     after that between them, and two more Serbs were killed in that shooting.

23     So all in all, four men were killed up there.  And after the other two

24     were killed, the situation escalated and people didn't really talk

25     rationally any more.

Page 18878

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Serbs suspect refugees of being armed still

 2     and did they suspect them of shooting, those refugees who sought shelter

 3     with you?

 4        A.   Which Serbs do you have in mind?

 5        Q.   Those who were getting killed in the area, those that were

 6     involved in shootouts with the SDA.

 7        A.   No way.  Even the representative of the SDS, Pero Mihajlovic or

 8     Knezevic, I don't know, anyway, this was the man who co-operated with me.

 9     He phoned me and not at a single moment did he suspect the refugees of

10     having done anything.  They were fleeing for their lives.  So it's the

11     population of Filipovic together with Novi Grad.  So it's both.  I mean,

12     nobody involved the refugees in anything and they had nothing to do with

13     any of it.

14        Q.   However, how did your superior command interpret this, the

15     takeover of this base?

16        A.   Well, I stated that quite properly in my report, regardless of

17     which report you're looking at.  (redacted)

18     (redacted) that the

19     commander from the lower warehouse had found out that there would be a

20     takeover of Ustikolina within six or seven days.  In our report we

21     provided this information to our commander.  He said that he would take

22     all necessary measures and issue orders to prevent that.  However,

23     unfortunately, on the 22nd April, all communications were cut, telephone,

24     telefax, everything, all communications were Sarajevo, so we did not have

25     any contact at all with our commander or did we know what was going on,

Page 18879

 1     and which order we should be receiving or not receiving, because

 2     telephones and everything else were taken over, but by who, we don't

 3     know.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You said in your statement, on the

 5     23rd of December 1995, paragraph 4 -- or rather, page 4, paragraph 1,

 6     that already on the 25th, the White Eagles, led by this Desimir, Dida,

 7     and his brother started attacking the warehouse; is that right?

 8        A.   Yes.  Shells were falling.  However, you know full well that in

 9     war, it depends on what the co-ordinates given for the shells were.  So

10     shells were falling on the village and on the warehouse, and later on

11     there was sniper shooting towards the entrance so I actually had to

12     withdraw my soldier from the entrance.

13        Q.   Thank you.  In your testimony, in the Krnojelac trial, that was

14     page 3109 to 3110, you say that in the night between the 20th and the

15     25th, the gunfire was getting closer, closer and closer to this

16     warehouse, and that refugees started leaving on the 25th of April during

17     the night.  They were going to Gorazde; right?

18        A.   Well, yes.  That's what I said but it's been so long, so many

19     years, and you keep insisting on each and every minute detail.  Well,

20     I guess you're entitled to do that.  But anyway, I've already said that

21     from the 3rd onwards refugees started arriving, and some of them stayed

22     for a day or two and others would just spend the night there and then go

23     on to Gorazde.  However, on the 25th, when we knew already, this

24     commander who was close to me -- when we knew that the attack against

25     Ustikolina was being prepared, we said, Run because we cannot guarantee

Page 18880

 1     anyone's safety or life.  And I don't want people to get killed and

 2     I don't want it to be my responsibility.  And I'm not to be blamed at

 3     all.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  But these were the White Eagles, and in your

 5     testimony on page 3112, paragraphs from 2 through 5, you say that at the

 6     end they ultimately showed up at the entrance to the warehouse and they

 7     were asking for something.  They were asking for some negotiations or

 8     something?

 9        A.   No.  During that shooting, a soldier brought this sort of piece

10     of paper, before they broke through by the gate.  I had to withdraw my

11     soldier from the gate, and before this break through, the soldier came

12     and since I had deployed all the other soldiers -- I mean, if there were

13     to be an attack, we would respond by way of an attack.  He was waving

14     this paper, whatever, he was saying that a fax had arrived because the

15     fax machine started working and he said that that was an order, and

16     I said, Come in through the main gate, try to crawl underneath the main

17     gate, and then after five metres, he was supposed to leave his weapons.

18     However, in the meantime there was this breakthrough by the White Eagles

19     with this vehicle of theirs and then the situation was different.  They

20     entered the barracks, and I can tell you about all the rest if you're

21     interested.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Then they prevailed; right?  There were more of them

23     and they prevailed, and you know exactly that it was the White Eagles.

24     What kind of insignia did they have?

25        A.   On their vehicle, it said, the Serb guard, Srpska Garda.  Dida

Page 18881

 1     then said, "We are the White Eagles."  They were marked with all sorts of

 2     markings and insignia.  Five-pointed stars.  However, they had no

 3     insignia of the JNA.  They had all sorts of badges and whatever else.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let us see now how this

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel Zoran Jovanovic reported to his superiors, the

 6     2nd Military District.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D42160, can we have that for a

 8     moment, please.  Can we have that in e-court.  1D4260.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Now, this is his report.  Was there a warehouse in Stojkovici, a

11     JNA warehouse?  Please take a look at this, the first sentence.

12     Situation in unit 744, logistics brigade.

13        A.   I don't know about Stojkovic.  I really wasn't interested in

14     that, to tell you the truth.

15        Q.   Thank you.  He reports here that this warehouse in Stojkovici was

16     taken by some Muslim colonel, Filipovic, or rather, the forces of the

17     Territorial Defence of the BH.  And then this paragraph 3, it says that

18     he received a report that this warehouse in Filipovici was taken, and the

19     commander and nine soldiers were taken to the KP Dom Foca by the

20     Crisis Staff of Foca, their forces.  This was preceded by the entry of

21     refugees including armed members of the SDA who probably intended to take

22     the warehouse.  Aware of this incursion, SDS formations intervened and

23     placed the warehouse under their control, (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18882

 1   (redacted)

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let us proceed.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Please, do you see this?  Now, down here there is yet another

 5     reference to Ustikolina, that there were conflicts, I mean it's this

 6     fourth paragraph down here.  Now, what does it say here in the fifth

 7     paragraph, the commander of the 2nd Military District took measures to

 8     have the commander and the soldiers returned to the warehouse, and then

 9     the next paragraph, that there was fighting.  Do you see that?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And the combat went on from 12 until 1500 hours, between the SDS

12     and the SDA, and he doesn't know who they are, the SDS and the SDA, and

13     he thinks it's the Serbs and Muslims; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So do you see that there was this fear, there was this

16     information that among the refugees there were combatants of the SDA who

17     had sought shelter and that they would take over the warehouse, and that

18     was the reason for the Serbs to break into the warehouse?

19        A.   I mean, well, of course, you're entitled to ask whatever you

20     want.  Twelve people -- I mean, if all of them were Muslims, those who

21     went to the KP Dom -- since they did not have any weapons because we had

22     frisked them.  So they could not have been armed.  All the weapons, the

23     pistols, were taken.  Only if they threw something over the fence, but

24     there was a soldier who was guarding the fence, two soldiers actually.

25     Now, these 12 people, taking 17 soldiers of mine, who were in the

Page 18883

 1     warehouse and that the SDS had to intervene?  And my soldiers were combat

 2     ready, although they did not have mortars but they had proper side arms.

 3     I mean, I really cannot understand any of this.  I cannot understand this

 4     at all.  The 12 men unarmed can take 17 men who are armed and that

 5     somebody needs to intervene.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And what about these people outside the warehouse?

 7     Did they know that it was 12 people or could they think that it was all

 8     over and that the warehouse could fall into the hands of the SDA?  They

 9     had no way of knowing, right, how many of them were there?

10        A.   Well, they had had no way of knowing, but there has to be some

11     kind of reconnaissance, some kinds of unit that was reconnoitering,

12     although there was a war, that had to have been monitored by some

13     formation.  I mean, please.  On the 25th, I've already said that I had

14     said everyone should flee, just to save their lives.  They should run for

15     their lives, with their children.  I mean, I wasn't interested in

16     anything else.  I mean, I didn't belong to any one of these formations

17     and I wasn't interested in any of this, and that's when the warehouse was

18     emptied.  It was basically children, old men and women who remained.  So

19     these 12 men they could not go any further.  They were either sick or

20     quite simply they were not capable of doing anything.  Anybody could see

21     the columns that were moving on the 26th, that were leaving in the

22     morning.  Everybody who could, left.  When the attack started, five or

23     six men with women broke into the warehouse.  I have no idea who they

24     were.  They sought shelter, there and I put them in a hangar and I have

25     no idea who these people are.  It was just a question of saving their

Page 18884

 1     lives.  I wasn't really interested in anything else, to tell you the

 2     truth.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Tell me, is it correct that you say, actually, that

 4     they were reinforced with another 50 White Eagles who had come on buses,

 5     and they looked through the depot, looking for weapons, ammunition, and

 6     soldiers who were guarding the warehouse?  That's what you said in your

 7     statement of the 23rd of December, 1995, on page 4, paragraph 1.  Was

 8     that actually the case?

 9        A.   They came.  They searched the entire warehouse.  They wanted to

10     torch it.  And then I had to say where the refugees were.  And then

11     I opened all the safes that I could, and then they found those that had

12     not been opened, and then they went to take weapons, ammunition,

13     everything else.  I had already issued an order to the soldiers who were

14     under my command, that they should come in front of the headquarters, and

15     they did come and none of them got killed, whereas the Serb guard or

16     White Eagles they were searching through the warehouse.  They took

17     everything they could.  They loaded all of that and then they left with

18     it.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So what did they load on those vehicles and what type

20     of weapons?

21        A.   Well, if I have to say, I guess I have to say, first of all,

22     I did not have any anti-armour.  I had infantry weapons, nothing else.

23     Because according to the order that I had received from

24     Commander Jovanovic, in case there were to be any kind of attack,

25     additional units would arrive and they would be supplied logistically

Page 18885

 1     from the third warehouse that was close to me, and that I would receive

 2     help in troops from the third warehouse.  Perhaps it was three BK for

 3     infantry weapons, combat sets.

 4        Q.   The interpreters probably don't know what BK is.  It's combat

 5     sets, kits.

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  And then you use that for firing.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Then you and your soldiers were taken away, nine

 8     soldiers, it says here, right, your soldiers?

 9        A.   No.  Nine?  Seventeen soldiers, not nine soldiers, eight

10     civilians, rather.

11        Q.   Ah-hah.  Eight civilians, well, there were 17 Muslims who were

12     taken prisoner and taken to Velecevo together with you; right?

13        A.   They set out towards Velecevo.  They were not there.  Actually,

14     they went down to Livade.  That's what I found out later, that they

15     returned the soldiers.

16        Q.   And you went on.  Who went with you to Velecevo?

17        A.   My driver, and Dida was in this other car, and two more people

18     who were from the White Eagles.  I don't know who they were.

19        Q.   And then you say that you saw a map on the table there.  Was it

20     on the wall or on the table?

21        A.   Both.  On the table and on the wall, Vojo Maksimovic arrived

22     then, and he said, I've just come from Belgrade.  I don't know about any

23     of this.  I saw these topographic maps on the wall, and on the table, and

24     I saw some circles placed around certain locations and I saw red and blue

25     arrows, and I couldn't see any details because I came as a man who was a

Page 18886

 1     prisoner.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What you saw in that map, did it correspond to what

 3     you had heard that 60 per cent of the territory of the municipality of

 4     Foca was Serb and that it belonged to the Serb municipality?

 5        A.   No, I couldn't.  Who could do that?  I mean, you're taken

 6     prisoner and you're looking at details?  I just cast a glance there.  And

 7     after all, it wasn't 60 per cent of Foca, but I told you a moment ago,

 8     65 per cent of the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina was supposed to be

 9     Serb and they did not want the JNA.  Perhaps I did not speak properly but

10     that was their main objective.  That is why these people were there

11     anyway.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And did you see on the map that there were two areas,

13     one was green and one was blue, the Serb and Muslim areas?

14        A.   No.  It depends who marks what area in what colour.  Whether the

15     units attacking or combat units, whether red or blue or green.  No,

16     I can't say.  I said I saw topographical maps on the table.  I asked,

17     What's this?  And I saw them on the wall.  I wasn't an idiot.  I didn't

18     want to ask about any details, and nobody would have allowed me to ask

19     about the details anyway.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Then you mention Ivanic, for example, who told Stanic

21     to see that nobody killed you, and that there would be refugees and

22     soldiers who were held in the school centre, and that they would be

23     released.

24        A.   Yes, that's what Ivanic said.  He said I'm a Serb and I have to

25     leave on the 15th of May, otherwise I'll be a POW.  And I'll be

Page 18887

 1     considered a war criminal unless I leave on the 15th of May.  And he

 2     said, you mustn't kill this commander here.  I'll inform everyone.  You

 3     have to release the refugees and the soldiers have completed their

 4     military service and you have to let them go home.  How they are going to

 5     get there and what transportation they are going to use is another

 6     matter.  So Stanic had come out before that and he said that to Stanic,

 7     and that was the end of the story.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, bear in mind that you have five

 9     minutes left.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'd like to ask Mr. Robinson

11     to present our views in the matter.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, if I could just indicate that

13     the examination which is the subject of the 92 ter is approximately two

14     hours and 50 minutes of direct examination.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We observed how he spent one hour or more than an

16     hour on what matters.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, what has been admitted already as direct

18     examination is far in excess of what you've allowed him, and there was

19     one hour of cross-examination in that case, and that was the case of an

20     individual who had nothing to do with the events in this municipality

21     other than at one specific location, and didn't involve any of the events

22     that Dr. Karadzic has been questioning this witness on.  So he ought to

23     at least have the same amount of time as the direct examination which,

24     when added to Mr. Gaynor's half an hour, is about three hours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Number 1, that submission was too late.  It should

Page 18888

 1     have been raised at the outset.  And I don't see any good reason to

 2     extend the time.  But we will consult.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             MR. KARADZIC:  Excellencies, initially we asked for ten hours.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have 15 minutes to conclude your

 7     cross-examination.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I just wanted to remind

 9     you that initially we had asked for ten hours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I won't repeat our ruling, we gave it to you, in

11     relation to how we come to the conclusion as to the proper time for your

12     cross-examination.  Just get on with it, please.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Witness, is it correct that this man Dida was well -- liked to

15     threaten, to say that he would kill the refugees and you, and that he had

16     to be held back by Vlado and Krnojelac, and that Krnojelac said that was

17     an order, that he should leave the refugees alone?

18        A.   Dida wanted to kill the refugees at 3.00 a.m., 3.00 at night,

19     because they had failed to pay him something that was due him, and he

20     wanted call up Vojvoda, however, Vlado prevailed, whether it was his

21     cousin or brother or what, not to call him because he would have

22     problems, and then the chief, Milorad, told me that he mustn't do that to

23     the refugees because there would be terrible problems if that were to

24     happen.

25        Q.   And he also threatened you, said he would kill you, and he was

Page 18889

 1     prevented in doing so, once again, by someone?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   That someone was Krnojelac, wasn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And he didn't kill any of the refugees, did he?

 6        A.   Thanks to Krnojelac, who found a method of dissuading him.  He

 7     talked to him, he told him not to call up Vojvoda, and he said that --

 8     and somehow he managed to send the women and children to the KP Dom and

 9     to protect them.  How he managed to do that, I don't know, but later on

10     those people left, except for the men, that is.  The women and children

11     were allowed to go but not the men.  Krnojelac told a young man, I knew

12     that.

13        Q.   So they were sent to the KP Dom for one night to save them from

14     Dida's intentions; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Then they ordered the White Eagles to leave Foca; right?

17        A.   Yes, on the 15th of May, otherwise they said they would be

18     considered as war criminals, so anybody who didn't leave until the 15th

19     of May -- a United Nations letter came in, and the deadline was extended

20     to the 29th of May, but after the 29th of May everybody remaining in

21     Bosnia would be considered as a criminal of war.  That's how the

22     International Tribunal would see them.

23        Q.   This man Ivanic, did he link that up to the decision on the JNA's

24     withdrawal from Bosnia, and did he say that after the 15th of May,

25     anybody remaining would not be there legally?

Page 18890

 1        A.   Yes.  That's right.  And not only him.  There were others in the

 2     warehouse, there were some officers, who were from Cacak for instance and

 3     from different places, Smederevo, and so on, who left.  They left as

 4     early as the 10th because they were told from Belgrade to withdraw.  So

 5     -- and that anybody who failed to withdraw, well, would suffer the fate

 6     they would suffer.  God help them.

 7        Q.   Is it true that these White Eagles threatened to set fire to

 8     villages?  And I think they did set fire to a Serb villages because one

 9     of their members was killed, I think, and that they were quite wild and

10     their actions were unforeseeable?

11        A.   When they said what their aim was, well, somebody issued orders

12     to them and said that 65 per cent of BH should be Serbian, and then the

13     soldiers linked up and they said, we will see what we are going to do

14     with the village tomorrow because one of our men was killed.  And they

15     would send his body to Serbia to be buried there.  And then they said

16     those Serbs will pay, they will pay for that.  And then there was a

17     village, I'm not sure of the name of the village, but anyway they did set

18     fire to the village, and the people fled to Serbia.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So they didn't differentiate much between the Serbs

20     and Muslims, Serb houses and homesteads and Muslim households?

21        A.   Well, according to the order, they were given the assignment, and

22     they were mercenaries, they were paid to carry out those assignments.

23     All they were interested in was to be paid for their assignments.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you manage to learn who the man behind the

25     name Vojvoda was?

Page 18891

 1        A.   No.  He was called Motorola, but who he was and what he was, I

 2     have absolutely no idea.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on the 30th of April, or rather, on the 30th of

 4     April, from Ustikolina you went -- moved towards Titograd, Titograd which

 5     is now called Podgorica, and then further on to Belgrade; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.  Although this isn't important for our discussions, I did go

 7     to Belgrade, yes, and I fled from Belgrade and went to Macedonia, and

 8     from Macedonia I went to Turkey, and from Turkey I returned to Slovenia,

 9     but they are all unimportant details as far as you're concerned.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Yes.  But you were interrogated briefly and they were

11     interested in the arming of Muslims, the refugees from Foca and the

12     leaders of the SDA; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   They didn't raise an indictment against you, did they?

15        A.   No, they did not.  And I was supposed to go to court in Sarajevo

16     first but I didn't want to because I'd have to go through Miljevina and

17     then Ivanic ordered me to go to Belgrade, and that's how things were.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know how many of these Elezi were killed

19     during World War II and how many were killed in this war?  You mentioned

20     the Elezi as a separate entity, an entity that didn't want to listen to

21     anyone.  So do you know how many of them were killed in World War II and

22     then this recent war?

23        A.   I know that the partisans killed quite a lot of the Elezi during

24     World War II because -- and lots of them lost their mind through what had

25     happened, but how many in this war, I don't know.  They had their command

Page 18892

 1     at the exit to Miljevina.  I saw it that night.  They were in the

 2     restaurant.  But they were all prominent citizens in Sarajevo.  Vojo

 3     Maksimovic knows about that.  You know about that.  All this situation

 4     concerning the Elezi, you were all well aware of that.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, according to your personal experience as an

 6     experienced officer, to what extent did personal revenge and the history

 7     of families influence the situation and what happened in Foca?

 8        A.   As far as the families of Foca are concerned, there would never

 9     have been a war.  There was just a portion of individuals.  Let's take

10     Stanic as an example.  He co-operated and collaborated very well with the

11     Muslims.  He was on good terms with them.  He was on excellent terms with

12     my brothers.  Take Vojo Maksimovic, he had an excellent relationship with

13     my brother, and as a professor and a family of long standing, Muslim

14     families, Serb families, they got on very well.  Just as Blagojevici in

15     the Old Town, get on well with the other Muslim families.  No problem

16     there.  However, certain number of extremists who -- and I say extremists

17     because they were people who couldn't resolve these problems and reach an

18     agreement by peaceful means, but resorted to fighting which was to

19     nobody's advantage, I think we would have been able to find a peaceful

20     solution.  And none of this would have happened.  I think there were

21     enough Serbs in Foca, old-standing Foca families, who would have found a

22     solution.  Saja, there was Saja, and well, I can exclude him.  But the

23     people of Foca know who these people are and which these old families are

24     and so on.

25        Q.   Now, do we agree that Sahinpasic, nicknamed Saja, was rather

Page 18893

 1     extremist and a fairly well off and able to finance a lot of those SDA

 2     operations in Foca?

 3        A.   Well, I can't say anything for certain but Saja is a man who is

 4     interested in money.  Money is what he's interested in.  And from a

 5     green grocer, he grew to become a businessman.  And in Sarajevo he had a

 6     whole chain of refrigerator trucks, and so on, and you know that arms and

 7     drugs yield the greatest profits.  You don't need me to tell you that.

 8     So just look at him and his situation.  He's got a palace now.  His

 9     brother is a very intelligent man, one of the most intelligent men living

10     in Sarajevo.  He -- but he has his own views.

11        Q.   Do you agree that Saja was the owner of the paper "Vox," which

12     was published before the war and during the war?

13        A.   No.  I haven't heard of that, no, to be quite frank.

14             JUDGE KWON:  How are these relevant to your case, Mr. Karadzic?

15     You have two minutes to conclude your cross-examination.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I have to paint

17     the entire picture of the situation in Foca because many witnesses

18     testified to the things that happened to them and that's all.  But thanks

19     to the Prosecution, there are a lot of generalised and general things

20     that he has talked about, and I can't discuss these with anybody else but

21     him because it's in his statement.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   And now one last question, witness:  Did you know or do you

24     know -- well, it's half my last question:  Do you know who Halid Cengic

25     and Hasan Cengic are, men from Foca?

Page 18894

 1        A.   Halid Cengic was a miller, a deputy miller, but he profiteered,

 2     he was a profiteer.  The other one I know by sight but I don't know much

 3     about him.

 4        Q.   And Halid Cengic -- Hasan, his son, Hasan Cengic, he's a Muslim

 5     priest and a high-ranking official of the SDA, did he appoint from the

 6     main quartermaster in Visoko -- do you know that Halid Cengic in

 7     August 1990 established the first units of the Patriotic League in

 8     Bosnia?

 9        A.   No, I'm not aware of that.  I don't know about that.  When I was

10     down there, he was an ordinary manual worker.  Now, all this about the

11     SDA, I really don't know.  I'm not a member of any party so I really

12     can't say.  I have absolutely no idea.  I was a member of the

13     League of Communists of Yugoslavia.  I was never excluded from the league

14     so I'm -- I remain a member.

15        Q.   Did you work in Visoko, in logistics?

16        A.   No, I didn't.

17        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, we would need

19     more time, not because of the witness but because of the OTP which

20     expands, which broadens the issues with every witness.  They give the

21     entire history of the conflict, whereas the witness knows only of one

22     part of it.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I think we dealt with these issues.  You are minded

24     to tender 1D4260.  Should we go into private session briefly?

25                           [Private session]

Page 18895











11  Page 18895 redacted. Private session.















Page 18896

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Gaynor, you have redirect examination?

 6             MR. GAYNOR:  I do, Mr. President, on simply one point.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Gaynor:

 9        Q.   Mr. Witness, the point is the Serb who sought shelter in your

10     barracks.  Today at page 47, Mr. Karadzic put a question to you:

11             "Were there any Serbs who had sought shelter in your barracks or

12     was it just Muslims?

13             In your answer you said:

14             "Among the first group of refugees, there was a Serb.  He was a

15     relative of a school friend of mine, Stojan.  His name was Ivan.  And he

16     was among the first ones to arrive.  He remained there the entire" --

17        A.   Ljuban.

18        Q.   That man Ljuban, do you know his surname?

19        A.   Blagojevic.

20        Q.   Is he still alive?

21        A.   I don't know that.  He was taken together with -- or rather, when

22     the barracks was taken, he was taken together with us in a car.

23        Q.   Did you ever have a conversation with his brother after these

24     events, while you were at KP Dom?

25        A.   No.  I only saw him for a moment, and he was surprised to see me

Page 18897

 1     in Velecevo.  That's all there was there.  We never saw each other

 2     afterwards.  I never saw him after the war.

 3        Q.   Perhaps, could you confirm for me, yes or no, whether there was a

 4     Serb who took refuge with the Muslim refugees because he was helping

 5     Muslims in Foca?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   Do you recall what happened to that Serb?

 8        A.   He was also arrested.

 9        Q.   Do you know if he is still alive?

10        A.   I don't know.

11             MR. GAYNOR:  Very well.  I won't pursue the matter, Your Honours.

12     No further questions in redirect.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.  That concludes your evidence at the

14     Tribunal.  On behalf of this Chamber, as well as the Tribunal as a whole,

15     I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now, you

16     are free to go.  Please have a safe journey back home.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Defence is also very grateful

19     to you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We will rise together.  We will take a break for

21     half an hour and resume at 20 past 5.00.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           --- Recess taken at 4.51 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 5.25 p.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

Page 18898

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. President.  First, we would

 2     like to introduce Marko Mrkonjic who has been working as an intern with

 3     our Case Managers, and today is his last day with our team so I would

 4     like to introduce him to you.

 5             Mr. President, the next issue we would like to raise involves the

 6     time for cross-examination of this next witness.  I'm a little surprised

 7     that you thought it was untimely to raise the issue when we were at the

 8     end of the allotted time for cross-examination because usually you're

 9     telling us you want to wait and see and how things develop, but since --

10     if you prefer to hear the submissions now we would like to ask for more

11     time for cross-examination of this next witness.  And I can -- if you're

12     ready to hear that, I can go into that right now.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Robinson.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, this witness testified in an

15     earlier trial here in the Tribunal and the direct examination took

16     approximately four hours.  It's scheduled for another hour of direct

17     examination here today, for a total of five hours, plus he was

18     cross-examined for about one hour and 30 minutes on issues that are not

19     particularly important to Dr. Karadzic because they involved one

20     particular location in the municipality.  And so we would ask that you --

21     you have given three hours, which is 60 per cent of the

22     cross-examination, and we basically believe that it's not fair to give

23     Dr. Karadzic less than the amount of the direct examination.  For

24     cross-examination you have to not only deal with material in direct but

25     you raise issues of credibility, so in theory you need more time than for

Page 18899

 1     direct examination.  And I don't see the Prosecution getting graded on

 2     performance in terms of the time for direct examination or redirect

 3     examination, and it seems somewhat unfair to Dr. Karadzic to give him

 4     below the time for direct examination by -- based on performance as

 5     opposed to telling him when something is irrelevant and making him move

 6     on to another area.  Sometimes in my own experience and perhaps

 7     Judge Morrison has had the same experience, sometimes you hit gold in the

 8     last half hour of your cross-examination and it's, you know -- there can

 9     be unproductive cross-examination and productive cross-examination but an

10     accused ought to have the time to be able to explore all the issues

11     raised by the direct examination.  So we would ask that you consider

12     increasing the cross-examination time for this witness.

13             I also have another issue with respect to the witness's

14     protective measures and I would ask that we go into private session for

15     that.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we deal with the first issue first?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff or Mr. Tieger, would you like to

20     respond?

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I think it's basically a matter

22     for the Trial Chamber to address the request and I don't really want to

23     make any submission.

24             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Robinson, we have listened with interest to

25     your submission, and in particular, the area where you referred to

Page 18900

 1     touching gold.  Very interesting.  At the moment, we are going to let the

 2     figure that we have awarded stand, but we shall most certainly consider

 3     your submission, and depending on the situation we will get back to you.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much.

 5             JUDGE MORRISON:  There is one issue I've dealt with before and,

 6     Dr. Karadzic, I address you.  I think it's worth repeating.  In the first

 7     place, in relation to that which Mr. Robinson said about a nugget of gold

 8     in cross-examination, I do confess that I once cross-examined somebody

 9     for several hours without effect and my last question to him was that he

10     was lying and he looked at the floor and he looked up at me and he said,

11     Well, just a little bit.  So I felt I had got somewhere.

12             But on a much more serious note, it is, and I remind you, it's

13     not the Serbian people who are on trial in this case, it's you.  And what

14     I'm about to say is intended to help rather than to be seen as any form

15     of a stricture.  While of course we don't know exactly what your case is

16     until we hear it, the thrust of your case should really be focused upon

17     issues of law, in particular those that revolve around command and/or

18     superior responsibility and any allegation of any joint offending.

19             Now, I agree that sometimes it's necessary to challenge factual

20     matters in that regard, but very often it isn't, and especially if the

21     facts are not in reality contested to any significant degree.  Questions

22     of historical reasoning and provocation are almost always irrelevant to

23     the case.

24             So try to make your essential legal point first in

25     cross-examination, and then any remaining time can be spent on what might

Page 18901

 1     be thought to be secondary issues.

 2             That is going to require a different focus on cross-examination

 3     than you usually employ, and for that reason, I don't expect you to be

 4     able to do it immediately.  But my experience over the years, and

 5     I suspect Mr. Robinson's, that by dealing with the really central points

 6     first, you become a better cross-examiner and the cross-examination is

 7     often more effective and productive, and as a byproduct it's usually much

 8     shorter.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Judge Morrison.  We have had that same

10     discussion and in Dr. Karadzic's defence, he's told me that as a literary

11     person who is a writer he's used to making a buildup and so it's a

12     different way of working for him, but I think he understands and he's

13     improved quite a bit.  I just want to point out to everyone, you don't

14     hear Dr. Karadzic making comments any more.  That was a constant source

15     of concern for the Chamber.  And he has -- doesn't do that any more and

16     I think that he does quite a good job of learning from these -- advice

17     that he receives from the Chamber.  Thank you.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  Every day in court is a learning process,

19     Mr. Robinson, even for judges, so I take that point.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We will hear from you on your next point.  Shall we

21     go into private session?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you.

23                           [Private session]

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18902











11  Page 18902 redacted. Private session.















Page 18903

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let the witness be brought in.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting for the

15     witness, let me ask can we work in the afternoon tomorrow?  I need half a

16     day to prepare.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Practically, I don't think it's possible.  No.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, sir.

20             Good afternoon, sir.  Do you follow the proceedings in the

21     language you understand?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I haven't understood.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Do you hear me in the language you understand?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  If you could take the solemn

Page 18904

 1     declaration, please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  KDZ-239

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated and make yourself

 7     comfortable.

 8             Sir, I would like to inform you, on behalf of the Chamber, that

 9     you'll be testifying today with the benefit of pseudonym, image and voice

10     distortion.  This means that there will be no reference to your real name

11     or information which might reveal your identity to the public or media.

12             The audiovisual record of your testimony, which is broadcast to

13     the public, will have a distorted image, which you can see in front of

14     you on the monitor.  Shall we show it to the witness now.  Like this.

15     And distorted -- and image and distorted voice to ensure that your

16     identity is protected, and the transcript, while available to the public,

17     will always refer to your pseudonym, which is KDZ-239.

18             Do you understand that, sir?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And are you -- you are happy with that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24                           Examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

25        Q.   Good afternoon, sir, can you hear me?

Page 18905

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we briefly have Exhibit 20788 displayed

 3     on the screen but not broadcast, please.

 4        Q.   Sir, the name listed as the first, and the date below there, is

 5     this your name and is it your date of birth?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this is the pseudonym sheet

 8     used in the Krnojelac case, and I request the admittance of this exhibit

 9     and it needs to be under seal.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be done.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit P3334, under seal,

12     Your Honours.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

14        Q.   Mr. Witness, you testified before this Tribunal in the case

15     against Milorad Krnojelac on the 27th and 28th November, 2000; is that

16     correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Did you have an opportunity to review this testimony when you

19     prepared for your testimony in the current case?

20        A.   I did.

21        Q.   Can you affirm that the testimony accurately reflects the

22     evidence you provided to the Tribunal in the year 2000?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, one correction needs to be

25     made, only to the English transcript.  In line 2, on page 1187, in a

Page 18906

 1     question, there is a reference to a Mr. Kovacic and what he said in

 2     relations to Muslims.  The question is not about Mr. Kovacic, as it

 3     states here in the English transcript, it was about Mr. Karadzic.

 4        Q.   Is that correct, witness?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Witness, would you provide that same evidence to the Court if

 7     questioned on the same matters here today?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, with the one correction I just

10     made I would like to tender this testimony as 65 ter 20783 for admission

11     under Rule 92 ter, and it needs to be under seal because there is a

12     closed session part in it.  A public version is uploaded as 65 ter

13     20783A.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit both versions.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As 65 ter 20783 will be Exhibit P3335, under

16     seal, and the redacted version, 20783A will be Exhibit P3336.

17             JUDGE KWON:  The pseudonym sheet we just saw earlier on contains

18     other names, names of other protected witnesses, which can be redacted?

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  The pseudonym sheet here --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we up load without broadcasting?

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, it was without broadcasting and I had

22     actually asked that it be admitted under seal.  The references to the

23     other witnesses refer to their names that are from the Krnojelac case,

24     and in the Krnojelac case, the witness basically refers to these numbers.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So we may need them --

Page 18907

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We need them here as well.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  -- to understand the context.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That will be done.  We will leave it at

 5     that.  Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.  With the Court's permission I

 7     would now read a brief summary of the witness's evidence as admitted.

 8             Witness KDZ-239 lived in Foca and observed the political

 9     developments before the outbreak of the conflict and heard speeches by

10     politicians of the SDS such as that Serbs can no longer live with the

11     Muslims.

12             Shortly after the attack on Foca by Serb forces, the witness was

13     arrested and first detained in the hangar of the former TO warehouse in

14     Livade and then at the Foca KP Dom prison.

15             Among the non-Serbs detained in the various hangars of the TO

16     warehouse in Livade were women and children.  While detained at Livade,

17     the witness observed looting and destruction of houses inhabited by

18     Muslims.

19             While detained in the KP Dom, the witness observed the

20     mistreatment of detainees and noticed the effect the abuse and the living

21     conditions, in particular, the hangar and the coldness, had on the

22     physical and psychological health of the detainees.

23             The detainees were civilians including old and sick people and

24     doctors.

25             Due to the living conditions and the lack of proper medical

Page 18908

 1     treatment and care, several detainees died in the prison.

 2             The witness observed the pattern of interrogations in the

 3     administration building of the KP Dom.  In particular, in summer 1992, he

 4     saw and heard the beatings and killings of detainees.

 5             Detainees had to perform forced labour in the KP Dom and outside,

 6     and some were hidden from the Red Cross when it came to visit the prison.

 7             The witness observed the disappearance of detainees in so-called

 8     exchanges.

 9             The witness had contacts with Milorad Krnojelac, the warden of

10     the KP Dom, who told him that the prison staff acted on orders from a

11     superior command.  Krnojelac told him that there were detention

12     facilities in all municipalities, and the witness found this confirmed

13     after he was transferred from the Foca KP Dom to the Kula prison in 1993.

14             The witness was detained at the Kula prison for about one year,

15     and he observed that detainees were wounded and killed when being taken

16     out for forced labour.

17             Your Honour, that concludes the summary.  And I have now a few

18     questions to ask in addition.

19             Can we please have the transcript of intercept 30532 on the

20     screen, please.

21        Q.   And as it is coming up, witness, did you have an opportunity to

22     listen to an intercept when preparing for your testimony?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Did you recognise any of the voices?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 18909

 1        Q.   Whom did you recognise?

 2        A.   I recognised the voice of Miro Stanic, president of the SDS in

 3     Foca, and Mr. Karadzic.

 4        Q.   And how familiar are you with the voice of Miro Stanic?  Did you

 5     know him from before the war?

 6        A.   Yes.  I knew him well.

 7        Q.   And you said that he was the president of the SDS in Foca.  Do

 8     you know who had this position -- do you know who had this position

 9     before Mr. Stanic became the president?

10        A.   Yes.  It was Mr. Petko Cancar.

11        Q.   And looking at the intercept transcript that we have here in

12     front of you, there is in the lower part of the B/C/S version, there is a

13     reference to problems in relation to Momcilo Mandic.  Do you know what

14     the problems with Mr. Mandic were in January 1992?

15        A.   Yes.  It was a purely private problem of Mr. Mandic's, and

16     I don't think that at that point in time it had anything to do with

17     politics.  At that time he was minister of justice in Republika Srpska.

18     However --

19        Q.   Thank you.  Let me interrupt you here.  That's actually

20     sufficient.  We do not need to go into details, more details, right now.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have the next page in both

22     languages?

23             In the lower part in the B/C/S, and in the English in the middle,

24     there is a reference, Dr. Karadzic is asking, "Can they introduce

25     independence in Foca?"  And, "No,"--  and Stanic says, "No, they won't.

Page 18910

 1     The journalist from the 'Spiegel' were here yesterday."  And he says, "So

 2     we told them we will never allow that."  And then he also says, "We have

 3     formed a Serb municipality and you have that information."

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, do you know what this refers to?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Can you tell us?

 7        A.   Yes.  It has to do with the decision of the SDS of BH to

 8     establish a Serb Municipality of Foca.

 9        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request this to be MFIed

11     according to the procedure here.  It's at the moment MFIed.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P3337.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 01412 on

15     the screen.  And as it is coming up, it is a radio report of 14 April

16     1992, with Velibor Ostojic reporting from Foca.  If you can zoom in in

17     the B/C/S on the upper part?

18        Q.   Sir, when you reviewed this short report when preparing for your

19     testimony, did you find a mistake in there related to the location

20     mentioned here as Ladja?

21        A.   Could that question please be repeated?

22        Q.   When you look at the reference here, it is -- it says here in

23     this document, it says, in the middle, "It is continuing in Donje Polje

24     with several pockets of activity towards Ladja and Celovina."  What does

25     Ladja refer to?

Page 18911

 1        A.   I think that it hasn't been recorded properly.  I think the

 2     proper recording would be Aladza.

 3        Q.   And Aladza, is that a neighbourhood?

 4        A.   Yes.  What is meant here is a neighbourhood called Aladza but

 5     then there is also this mosque in this neighbourhood called Aladza

 6     mosque.

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, can you help us with the sky-scraper Mr. Ostojic is

 8     talking about here?  He speaks about a sky-scraper with a sniper nest.

 9     Do you know where it is situated and who was living there in this

10     sky-scraper?

11        A.   Yes.  This sky-scraper was between the Aladza local commune and

12     the local commune of Donje Polje.  Both Muslims and Serbs lived in it.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to have this

14     document admitted.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3338, Your Honours.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would now like to have

18     Exhibit 65 ter 17234 be brought up on the screen.  And as it is coming

19     up, it is a certificate dated 4th June 1992, referring to the decision of

20     the Presidency of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina to establish

21     war commissions in municipalities and the certificate refers to

22     Professor Dr. Maksimovic being appointed to state commissioner for the

23     Foca municipality.

24        Q.   Witness, this is a document where someone signs on behalf of the

25     president of the Presidency, Dr. Radovan Karadzic.  If you look at the

Page 18912

 1     signature, can you read who is signing for Dr. Karadzic?

 2        A.   I think it was Nikola Koljevic that signed it.  Nikola Koljevic,

 3     in Cyrillic.  For the president.

 4        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Do you know Vojislav Maksimovic?

 5        A.   Yes, I know him well.

 6        Q.   Was he from Foca?

 7        A.   Yes.  He was born in the village of Cvilin, and a bigger town

 8     close to that village is Ustikolina.  He was held in high regard in that

 9     local commune.  The majority of the population there was Muslim,

10     70 per cent.  He was held in very high regard as a citizen and professor.

11     What was depressing for people from that location, from that area, were

12     Mr. Maksimovic's statements at the SDS meeting in Gorazde.

13        Q.   What did he say there that depressed the people?

14        A.   He said, by way of his own rhetoric, that in the previous war the

15     Drina flowed bloody, and in this war the Cehotina river would flow bloody

16     too, and that indeed came true.

17        Q.   It states further here in the certificate, it says this

18     certificate shall supersede the authority previously vested in

19     Velibor Ostojic who had been given new tasks and duties.

20             Sir, do you know Velibor Ostojic also from Foca?

21        A.   Yes.  I know him, not as well as Maksimovic, but I do know him.

22     He was born in Celebici, 45 kilometres away from Foca.  It's almost at

23     the border with Montenegro.

24        Q.   Yes.  Thank you.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to have this

Page 18913

 1     document admitted.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3339, Your Honours.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness, in the testimony in the Krnojelac case, you gave

 6     quite a lot of details on the prison staff and we do not need to repeat

 7     all these details.  I would just like to show you one exhibit, and this

 8     is number 1 -- 65 ter 14942, and can this be please on the screen.  We

 9     have here a decision of the Executive Board of the Foca municipality

10     related to work obligation and it is signed by Mr. Mladjenovic, who -- he

11     signs here for -- as president of the Executive Board.  Do you know

12     Mr. Mladjenovic, and do you know whether he held such a position?

13        A.   Yes.  I know Mr. Mladjenovic.  He was a professor at a school.

14     As for this position, president of the Executive Board, he held that in

15     the joint assembly of the Muslims and Serbs in Foca that had been

16     constituted on the 25th of December, 1990.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Looking at point 3 in this document, could

18     we please zoom in a bit on the B/C/S in particular so that the witness

19     can see it.  And it says here, the Crisis Staff of the Serb Municipality

20     of Foca and the command of the JNA unit shall engage the workers from the

21     previous item if needed and required by the circumstances.

22        Q.   Sir, this work obligation, how does it relate to the KP Dom

23     staff?  Do you know that?

24        A.   Yes.  All of them, guards, policemen, it's synonymous, who worked

25     in the previous system were assigned to work there.  It's called work

Page 18914

 1     obligation here.  But that does not rule out going to the front line.

 2     It's a group of some 37 to 40 previous employees, people who worked as

 3     policemen, that is.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to have this admitted,

 6     Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3340, Your Honours.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10        Q.   Mr. Witness, you mentioned that Mr. Krnojelac and other prison

11     authorities referred to the superior command and that they would just

12     execute the orders of that superior command.  As a reference, it is in

13     page 1172 of the transcript.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please, in this context, have

15     65 ter 07332 on the screen.  And as it is coming up, it is a request by

16     the commander, Miro Stanic, of the command of the tactical group Foca of

17     8 May 1992, to make available rooms in the KP Dom for prisoners of war.

18        Q.   Sir, can you remind us from when people were detained in the

19     KP Dom?  I mean in the war situation, not before the war.

20        A.   People who were detained were kept in building 1 and building 2.

21     Those were the numbers assigned to these buildings.

22        Q.   And can you tell us since when, from when onwards were people

23     detained in the KP Dom?

24        A.   I was transferred to the KP Dom in the evening on the

25     17th of April, 1992.  As they were bringing us in, I found quite a few

Page 18915

 1     people there from Donje Polje for the most part.  This is a Muslim area

 2     that is the closest to KP Dom.

 3        Q.   Thank you very much.  It refers here in this document to

 4     prisoners of war.  Were you and the many other detainees in the KP Dom

 5     prisoners of war?

 6        A.   No, no.  Civilians only.  They took us prisoner at our places of

 7     work, in the streets, in our homes.  Some people were hiding in the

 8     woods, and then they found them there and brought them to the KP Dom.  At

 9     any rate, no one was there who had been at the front line.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I would like to have this

11     document admitted.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  P3341, Your Honours.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 07665 on

15     the screen?  And as it is coming up, it's a response by Mr. Krnojelac

16     complying with this request basically.

17        Q.   Mr. Witness, did anything change at that time for the detainees?

18     You mentioned it was starting in April and now we have the 8th of May.

19     Does anything change at that time?

20        A.   No.  On the contrary, things got worse.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we briefly have document P01141 on the

22     screen.  It's already an exhibit in evidence, Your Honour.

23             And we have here a decision of the minister of justice,

24     Mr. Mandic, appointing Milorad Krnojelac on the 17th of July, 1992, to be

25     the warden.

Page 18916

 1        Q.   Witness, did the conditions for the detainees in any way change

 2     from mid-July 1992?

 3        A.   No.  The bad situation escalated in every way, in terms of our

 4     health and survival.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 16261 on

 6     the screen.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, we can admit 7665.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3342, Your Honours.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

10        Q.   As it is here now, there is another decision of Mr. Mandic dated

11     16 December 1992, appointing Savo Todovic to acting deputy warden, and we

12     do not go into details on Savo Todovic -- it says here "Todorovic."

13     I can't read the B/C/S.  There is a mistake at least in the English.

14     What does it say in the B/C/S in relation to the name of the lawyer from

15     Foca being appointed deputy warden?

16        A.   Todovic, Savo.

17        Q.   Yes, thank you.

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, the name is misspelled here in

19     this document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's noted.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

22        Q.   And now, giving the date December 1992, did Todovic's position

23     vis-à-vis the detainees change at that time, in any way?

24        A.   No.  Well, this was post festum.  I mean the decision came after

25     his de facto appointment.

Page 18917

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

 2     document.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted as Exhibit P3343.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 5        Q.   Mr. Witness in your previous testimony you gave a great many

 6     details on the detainees in the KP Dom and their fate.  We do not go into

 7     this detail again.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  But can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 06929

 9     on the screen.  And it is here already in the B/C/S.  It is a note by

10     Krnojelac to the Crisis Staff of the -- of 15 May 1992, forwarding a

11     release request of a detainee Enes Zekovic.

12        Q.   Sir, do you know this detainee?  Was he indeed detained there and

13     then released?

14        A.   Yes, yes.

15        Q.   Who was he and why was he there detained?

16        A.   Like everyone else, except he was a Muslim and probably he had a

17     different kind of political affiliation.  He used to work for the

18     municipality of Foca before the war.

19        Q.   Do you know why you were detained there?

20        A.   The reasons were the same for most of us civilians, detainees.

21     Just because we were Muslims, because we had a different faith.  And a

22     number also had a different political affiliation.  However, an enormous

23     number of people who happened to be there were not interested in politics

24     at all or political parties.  There were sick people there.  They were

25     not interested in anything.  They could not really orient themselves.

Page 18918

 1     There were really quite a few people like that.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

 3     exhibit.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that will be admitted.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3344, Your Honours.

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have Exhibit 65 ter 14848 on

 7     the screen.  And as it is coming up, it's only partly readable, but it is

 8     a list of persons to be released from KP Dom, from May 1992.

 9        Q.   And Mr. Witness, do you know these people or some of them, and

10     were they in fact released?

11        A.   Yes.  I know them.  And for a longish period of time, they were

12     there.  The camp was officially opened on the 18th and then until the

13     5th of May, well that would be the period that they spent there.  And as

14     we can see, all of them are elderly people, exhausted, full of fear.

15     They were there for a while.  But when they were released, when they were

16     allowed to go home, as it says there, they were supposed to report every

17     day to the public security station of Foca.

18        Q.   And at the end, it says here that they have been operatively

19     processed.  We don't have the English right now here but it says so in

20     the last line.  Do you know what that means "operatively processed"?

21        A.   What I see on the screen is what it says down here, reasons are

22     the illness and age of all the mentioned persons, ah, yes, it does say

23     operatively processed.  It's barely legible.  That means that they were

24     interrogated by the police in the KP Dom.

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

Page 18919

 1     document.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI P3345, Your Honours.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I just was told the English is

 5     there now so you have an English version now in e-court.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We take your word.  That will be admitted.

 7             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you.  I thought you had it.

 8             Thank you.  I would now like to have Exhibit 65 ter 14742 on the

 9     screen, and I hope it's now there in both languages.  It's another list

10     of persons to be released.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could this please be enlarged a

12     bit?

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

14        Q.   Yes, so we have now both languages and it is a list of people to

15     be released without interrogation, dated the 9th of May, 1992.  Do you

16     know these people listed here?

17        A.   Yes.  I know all of them.  For a long time I lived in Miljevina,

18     for over 15 years with my family.  So I knew people well.  And I could

19     deal with them one by one.  But I would immediately like to deal with

20     person number 13.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, we need to go into private

22     session for that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  May the Chamber move into private session.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 18920

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are in open session.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

20        Q.   And the other people listed here, do you know whether they are --

21     were in fact released and are alive or not?

22        A.   I'm not sure that all of them were in KP Dom, that all of them

23     were brought there.  I don't remember the person under number 13, but I

24     know that Subasic, Mirsad was there.  He was a young man, around 25 years

25     old, and also it's not Dzanko Senad but rather two brothers, Elmedin and

Page 18921

 1     Eldin.  They were also younger people and I saw them in the KP Dom.  As

 2     for the others, I'm not sure.  What I'm sure about though is that none of

 3     them are alive nowadays and haven't been alive for a long time.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to have this document admitted,

 5     Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3346, Your Honours.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  One more document, I would like to have

 9     65 ter 14944 be brought on to the screen.  And as it is coming up, it is

10     an order by commander Marko Kovac dated the 7th September 1992, related

11     to the arrest of suspects and their release.

12        Q.   Do you know what this order is related to?

13        A.   This is an order of the commander of the Foca Brigade,

14     Colonel Marko Kovac, who ordered the administration of KP Dom, how they

15     were to release people, under what conditions, and whom they could

16     release.

17        Q.   And to what type of detainees would that relate?  Do you know

18     that?

19        A.   Yes.  This pertained exclusively to civilians.

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I request the admission of this

21     document.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3347, Your Honours.

24             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

25        Q.   Sir, in your testimony, you only very briefly described the

Page 18922

 1     situation of the detainees in Kula prison and you refer to people getting

 2     wounded and killed while doing work outside of the prison, and it's at

 3     the end of the testimony in chief at 1285.  And you refer to a particular

 4     incident in January 1994 when several people were taken out very early in

 5     the morning for work and two got killed.

 6             Mr. Witness, do you remember the persons, the two persons, that

 7     were killed?

 8        A.   Yes, yes.  I can say that -- I can say the names of those people,

 9     or I can tell you where they were from.

10        Q.   Please tell us the names and also where they were from.

11        A.   One of those who were killed was Mesudin Smaic.  And the other

12     was a younger person from the village of Grapska.  I can't remember his

13     first or last name.  However, he was an artisan, and he worked at the

14     chicken farm in Kula because in Kula, I found a number of prisoners from

15     Doboj, Banja Luka, Grapska, from the camps around Sarajevo and Pale.  And

16     this is what confirmed the statement of Milorad on the 10th of June when

17     he talked to me, namely that there were camps throughout

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina under the control of Serb forces.  At the end, he told

19     me, We don't know what to do now.

20        Q.   And this person Mesudin Smaic, where -- when did he arrive in the

21     Kula prison, and how?

22        A.   Mesudin Smaic and his brother Hasudin Smaic arrived after a

23     complete ethnic cleansing in the municipality of Rogatica.  They arrived

24     in a larger group, in two or three buses.  They entered the compound of

25     the Kula camp.  There were a number of elderly people there, women and

Page 18923

 1     some five or six children.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, this concludes the

 3     examination-in-chief.  I request the admission of the associated exhibits

 4     listed in the first table of the appendix to the 92 ter notification.

 5     Some of them need to be under seal, and I have indicated this in the

 6     notification.  There is one particular document, and that is item 23242,

 7     the schedule C to the Krnojelac indictment.  It is tendered only for

 8     reference purpose, as the witness refers to this throughout his testimony

 9     to identify particular victims.  It would be easier if that would just be

10     admitted for reference purposes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objection, Mr. Robinson?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I think we admitted the pseudonym sheet already.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, that's correct.

15             JUDGE KWON:  And there are some photo documentation which is

16     referred to as 65 ter number 11289.

17             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure if that has been uploaded in e-court.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, it has been uploaded in e-court.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I couldn't see it.  Could you check it now?

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  At least the ones that are --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload it [overlapping speakers] ...

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, it's a huge documentation and only a

24     few photos are --

25             JUDGE KWON:  I get the signal from Mr. Reid now.

Page 18924

 1             I take it there should be no problem, but in relation to 16183,

 2     I'm afraid whether the witness had said anything in relation to this

 3     document.  All I can read from the transcript was just the witness was

 4     shown this document.

 5             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I thought he has commented on this, but we

 6     can, of course, show it to him now briefly.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's do that.

 8             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, and it cannot be broadcast.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have 16183 on the screen.  And

11     it is an ICRC document.

12        Q.   Sir, if you look at this document, is it -- this relates to you.

13     Don't read anything from it, in particular not the name.  It's related to

14     your detention time.  Can you please comment on this?  It's referring to,

15     in particular, the details on Kula.

16        A.   I have before me a certificate of the International Committee of

17     the Red Cross, which speaks of the period of my detention in the camps in

18     Foca and Kula.  Is this enough for you?  I can also tell you that there

19     are some items that are not correct there.

20             JUDGE KWON:  That's sufficient, sir.  We will admit it under

21     seal.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3348, under seal, Your Honours.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, that concludes the

24     examination-in-chief.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Other associated exhibits will be admit

Page 18925

 1     the and given numbers in due course and some should remain under seal, as

 2     indicated.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, you will be further asked by Mr. Karadzic in

 5     his cross-examination.

 6             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, can you start?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies, thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Have in mind the Chamber is of the view that at the

 9     moment three hours would be sufficient for your cross.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Not all today.  I think seeing the witness looking

11     at his watch he can be assured that he won't be here for another three

12     hours today.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We will adjourn at 7.00, sir, and then we will

14     continue tomorrow morning.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If we may briefly go into private

16     session, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18                           [Private session]

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 18926

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Witness, while it's still fresh in our minds, I would like to

11     clarify a couple of points from today's examination-in-chief.  I would

12     kindly ask you, and I'm also reminding myself, to make breaks between

13     question and answer because everything we say is being interpreted and we

14     speak the same language so it could present a problem.

15        A.   I shall try.

16        Q.   On page 79 of today's transcript, you said that you heard that

17     the Serb side or some official said that the Serbs could not live with

18     the Muslims.  Did you say that indeed?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   As a member of the SDA and a member of the municipal board, were

21     you familiar with negotiations that we had at the level of the republic

22     and the level of the municipality, the negotiations between the SDS and

23     the SDA?

24        A.   Partially.  I don't know which aspect interests you.

25        Q.   Do you agree that the starting platform of the SDA and the SDS,

Page 18927

 1     when it came to preservation of Yugoslavia, was identical, and that that

 2     was the basis for our coalition?  We wanted to topple the communist

 3     regime and to --

 4        A.   In which period of time do you say that these political parties

 5     had these views?

 6        Q.   Before the elections.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  If I could give you a tip, as to how you can put a

 8     pause between the question and answer, it's to watch the transcript,

 9     which is moving, and when it stops, it means Mr. Karadzic's question has

10     been translated.  And then when the transcript stops, then you can start

11     answering.  Bear that in mind.  Thank you.  Do you understand?  Do you

12     follow?  Yes.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED:  [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I'm now referring to the period of time before the elections when

18     we agreed on the post-elections coalition and when, on the 15th of

19     January, we formed a joint assembly and joint government.  Do you

20     remember that the SDA and the SDS both supported the preservation of

21     Yugoslavia?

22        A.   Yes, in the sense that within Yugoslavia, there should also be

23     Croatia.

24        Q.   Then it's not true, witness, that the Serbs did not want to live

25     with the Muslims.  The truth is that they didn't want to live with the

Page 18928

 1     Muslims outside of Yugoslavia in a single unitarian Bosnia dominated by

 2     Muslims; isn't that right?

 3        A.   That's not correct.

 4        Q.   Didn't we ask you to remain with us in Yugoslavia?

 5        A.   Yes.  But not in the rump Yugoslavia.  Don't forget,

 6     Mr. Karadzic, or rather, you know this full well, that there are three

 7     nations living in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Muslims, Serbs and Croats, and

 8     that all of them need to find their own space in the country where they

 9     live.

10        Q.   Do you remember that in June and July, there was a process

11     underway of an agreement, historic agreement, between Muslims and Serbs,

12     proposed by a man from Foca, Adil Zulfikarpasic, and professor of

13     philosophy, Filipovic?  It was also supported by Mr. Izetbegovic.  For

14     two months we spoke of how Serbs should give up on all regionalisations

15     and that Muslims and Bosnia should remain in Yugoslavia even in the rump

16     Yugoslavia.

17        A.   No.  I don't remember any such agreement.

18        Q.   Should I conclude, then, that you do not know all that well some

19     general facts about the politics in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

20        A.   It wasn't my primary focus, the politics.  Something else was.

21     However, I knew the basic principles that applied to Bosnia and

22     Herzegovina once Slovenia seceded and then Croatia.  There was a

23     referendum and people stated in large numbers that they wanted to live in

24     an independent sovereign Bosnia-Herzegovina with three constituent

25     peoples, Muslims, Croats and Serbs, together with the others.

Page 18929

 1        Q.   Witness, I'm interested in knowing whether I should devote

 2     attention to your general statements, sweeping statements, when you say

 3     that the Serbs said that they couldn't live with the Muslims.  Now, if we

 4     call upon you to remain in Yugoslavia with us, in any variant, then that

 5     is not true, it doesn't mean that we can't live with you, it's that you

 6     didn't want to live with us.

 7        A.   Mr. Karadzic, no.  What I said is a fact, and it was broadcast

 8     over the local radio station, Serbian radio station in Foca, that the

 9     time had come for the Serbs to settle accounts with the balijas once and

10     for all, and that the Serbs would no longer allow their ribs to be

11     broken.  They will no longer allow their children to be circumcised, and

12     that the things that the hodzas did would no longer be allowed.  And that

13     was broadcast over the radio.

14        Q.   Now, witness, do you know about the Islamic Declaration by

15     Mr. Izetbegovic as being the basis for a future Bosnia, and do you agree

16     that the introduction of sharia law would have been unavoidable under

17     that declaration?

18        A.   What declaration do you have in mind?  What Islamic Declaration

19     are you referring to?  When it was written, you mean?

20        Q.   It was written in 1970 and Mr. Izetbegovic was tried because of

21     it in 1983, but he didn't want to give it up but published it again later

22     when I said that he should renounce it publicly.  So are there two

23     Islamic Declarations or only one, the Islamic Declaration of

24     Mr. Izetbegovic?

25        A.   Yes, only one Islamic Declaration.  He never wrote another one, a

Page 18930

 1     second Islamic Declaration, that you have just mentioned.

 2        Q.   Now, would you agree that Momcilo Mandic, on the

 3     6th of January, 1992, was not the minister of justice in Republika Srpska

 4     but the assistant minister of the interior in the joint government, the

 5     joint ministry?

 6        A.   What date in January did you mention?  What year was that?

 7        Q.   The document that was put to you on page 81 of the transcript

 8     today bears the date of the 6th of January, 1992.  And you identified the

 9     collocutor, or rather, co-signatory, or rather, the person that was

10     mentioned that it was the minister of justice in Republika Srpska.  Now,

11     do you agree that on the 6th of January, 1992, Republika Srpska was not

12     in existence so he was the assistant of the minister for crime in the

13     joint government?

14        A.   No, I can't confirm that.  I think he occupied the post that

15     I stated earlier on.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, would you agree -- you say -- you mentioned the

17     20th of December or somewhere thereabouts, that the Serbian Ministry

18     of -- municipality of Foca was constituted.  Do you agree that it was

19     just proclaimed but came into existence and started working only in April

20     1992?  Would that be right?

21        A.   Let's go back for a moment to the date when the joint multi-party

22     assembly was constituted, of the Muslims and Serbs, because they were the

23     two leading ethnic groups in Foca, and that was the 25th of December,

24     1990.  A year after that date it says over there -- or we see that the

25     Serbian Municipality of Foca was constituted.  So the date is the same

Page 18931

 1     but it's one year later, with all its bodies and organs.

 2        Q.   And would it be true that this joint municipality continued to

 3     work and function right up to the 6th or 7th of April?

 4        A.   Yes.  In formal terms, but objectively speaking, this did not

 5     happen because there was constant obstruction by the Serb representatives

 6     in the municipal authorities and agencies, and they carried out these

 7     obstructions quite consciously, and this served the Serbian Democratic

 8     Party to arm itself and prepare itself for an aggression because

 9     unfortunately that's what happened.  There was an aggression in April and

10     May in Bosnia-Herzegovina in a large number of municipalities during

11     those two months.  And that is something that only a people who had a lot

12     of weapons could have carried out.

13        Q.   Witness, may I ask you to stick to what you know 100 per cent,

14     what you witnessed yourself.  Now, tell me this:  This meeting in Gorazde

15     that you say Mr. Vojislav Maksimovic, a university professor, a member of

16     the academy of science said that Cehotina would flow bloody, was that

17     make meeting a public rally?

18        A.   Yes, it was a public rally of the SDS.

19        Q.   Was it the pre-electoral meeting?

20        A.   I'm not quite sure whether it was representing the SDS parties or

21     whether it was the pre-electoral meeting because there were two rounds;

22     first of all, in Bosnia-Herzegovina you presented yourself to the people

23     as a party, and then the pre-election campaign started up.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know that Mr. Vojislav Maksimovic,

25     although he was on the list, he wasn't a member of the SDS right up until

Page 18932

 1     the spring of 1991, although he was on that ticket, but before that he

 2     was not in the party, he was president of the cultural society called

 3     Prosveta?

 4        A.   No, I don't know about that and I doubt what you're saying.

 5        Q.   Very well.  Now, what you're saying, that this eminent

 6     professor - and you say he was a distinguished professor - this drastic

 7     sentence of his, did anybody publish that, publicise that?

 8        A.   Well, yes, the media did.  It was in the media.

 9        Q.   Well, can you help the Prosecution out and get us a copy of that?

10        A.   Well, it's up to the Prosecution to do that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on page 86 of today's transcript, mention was

12     made of work obligations.  Do you agree that a work obligation is

13     something that was prescribed by law, the law on total national defence

14     and social self protection, and that when there is imminent danger of

15     war, those who are not up at the front must do something, do some work,

16     and the local authorities decided what the work obligation would be?

17        A.   That was what it was like in the previous system, and I can't

18     remember that this document existed in the multi-party system.

19        Q.   However, do you remember that all the laws that existed in the

20     old Yugoslavia in the SFRY, and were not changed and they continued to be

21     in force, so there was no legal vacuum so to speak?

22        A.   Yes, that's true, most of them did continue to live on.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, can you tell us what was the army into which on

24     the 8th of May Mr. Miro Stanic was commander of the tactical group of

25     Foca?  What army was that?  The tactical group Foca, what army was that

Page 18933

 1     in, part of?

 2        A.   They had an army, that is to say they set up the Crisis Staff,

 3     and they recruited people from the SDS, from your party, and these people

 4     were called, referred to, as the Serb territorials to begin with.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know when the Army of Republika Srpska

 6     came into being, of which I was the Supreme Commander, or rather the

 7     Presidency?

 8        A.   I think that was in May 1992.  I'm sorry, 1991.

 9        Q.   1991, you say?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Very well.  You're probably tired.  It was 1992 when the decision

12     was made and then the army was formed afterwards.  How could it have been

13     in 1991 when we still had a joint state?

14        A.   Well, Mr. Karadzic, we have the attack by the Serb forces at the

15     beginning of April.  Let me explain the situation to the Prosecution.

16     First of all, there was the Territorial Defence, and then from the

17     Territorial Defence -- or rather, it was transformed to become the

18     Army of Republika Srpska.  Do you agree with that?

19        Q.   Thank you.  Just as from the Territorial Defence of the Muslim

20     forces and Croatian forces, the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina was formed,

21     right, in similar fashion?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Now, on the 8th of May, 1992, yes, the 8th of May, 1992, would

24     you agree that the Territorial Defence, by law, the law governing total

25     national defence and social self protection, was a formation which

Page 18934

 1     belonged to the municipality, and the president of the municipality was

 2     the political leader, the Supreme Commander, of that unit which was --

 3     had this municipal character?

 4        A.   Mr. Karadzic, that was the case in previous documents.  That's

 5     what was stipulated there.  But let me remind you that in Foca, and the

 6     population of Foca already in May had been expelled -- it says in the

 7     reports that the Serb forces took control of the whole of Foca

 8     municipality by the end -- already by the end of April, and were moving

 9     towards Gorazde, whereas your -- you mention the 8th of May.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Witness, let's clear this matter up.  When you say

11     Serb forces, do you mean that they were forces composed of Serbs, or do

12     you consider that to be the Army of Republika Srpska?

13        A.   Well, I mean it to be the Army of Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   And the Army of Republika Srpska, did it exist before the

15     20th of May, 1992?

16        A.   Well, all right, Mr. Karadzic, we are just confusing the two.

17     The Territorial Defence became the Army of Republika Srpska.  This is

18     just a formal transformation.  And the role of your Territorial Defence,

19     or as they were often referred to as the Serb territorials, it's the same

20     thing, the same thing as the Army of Republika Srpska as it became known

21     later on.  And that's what it says in the Crisis Staff documents as well.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, witness, just a little patience.  Legally

23     speaking, we have to determine whether the Law on Total National Defence

24     was changed or was the Territorial Defence the army of each municipality

25     until it was changed, and the president of the municipality, by

Page 18935

 1     ex officio, was the president of the National Defence council, and the

 2     commander of the Territorial Defence was his tactical commander?

 3        A.   Well, I can't con firm that.

 4        Q.   Can you deny it, then?

 5        A.   I would be closer to denying it than to confirming it because

 6     according to the previous system, and the documents in the previous

 7     system is one thing, and as soon as the municipal assembly of Foca was

 8     formed, the Serbs carried out an obstruction.  They failed to adopt an

 9     agenda, nothing could get done, the whole system was paralysed.  So

10     you're going very far away in saying that the Territorial Defence as a

11     joint structure had been established.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know when the Crisis Staff of the SDA was

13     formed and when the SDS Crisis Staff was set up?

14        A.   My answer would be that I don't know that exactly.  I don't know

15     when the Crisis Staff was set up.  I was wondering that when I was

16     captured.  Now, in your document, it says quite decidedly that the

17     Crisis Staff was formed on 3 April and that it was composed of 15

18     members.  Perhaps we could demonstrate that and have it shown on our

19     screens.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now, tell us, please, how many arrested Muslims were

21     there in April, in the month of April, in those clashes?  How many

22     Muslims were arrested?

23        A.   Well, the figure we arrived at was that in the KP Dom of Foca

24     there were between 600 and 650 civilians incarcerated.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And how many Muslims lived in Foca municipality?

Page 18936

 1        A.   The number of Muslims was about 21,500 or 52 per cent of the

 2     population.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And you don't know why you were arrested although you

 4     were questioned?  What were you questioned about?

 5        A.   I was interrogated formally.  I was asked whether I had any

 6     weapons, nothing more than that.

 7        Q.   You said a moment ago that you were asked when the Crisis Staff

 8     was established.  Were there any other questions?

 9        A.   The group that captured me asked me that, but the police later

10     on, the police that came to the KP Dom to interrogate the prisoners, just

11     asked me whether I was in possession of any weapons, and before that they

12     had searched my flat.  So it was just an official matter to call me in

13     for an interrogation.  They already knew that I didn't.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Karadzic, and Mr. Witness, we will stop

15     here and continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.

16             In the meantime, while you are giving your evidence, you are not

17     supposed to discuss about your testimony with anybody else.

18             Do you understand that, sir?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please have a nice evening.  9.00

21     tomorrow.

22                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.59 p.m.,

23                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 16th day

24                           of September 2011, at 9.00 a.m.