Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19151

 1                           Tuesday, 20 September 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning, Mr. Panic.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your

 9     cross-examination.

10                           WITNESS:  PETKO PANIC [Resumed]

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, your Excellencies.

14     Good morning, your Excellencies, good morning, everyone.

15        Q.   Good morning, witness.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Yesterday we discussed very briefly, and we will continue today,

18     the transcript of your examination-in-chief, esteemed Ms. Elliott asked

19     you if you had seen that my demand or, rather, order or whatever, was

20     obeyed, that our children be resettled in Divic and Kozluk.  Was it the

21     case that abandoned buildings and apartments in Divic and Kozluk were

22     placed at the disposal only of the local population or the refugees?

23        A.   They were given exclusively to refugees, with perhaps a few

24     individual exceptions.

25        Q.   Also on page 94, you were asked about the evacuation from the

Page 19152

 1     Serbian Municipality of Zvornik if the two municipalities had undergone

 2     transformation, would Muslims have been evacuated from the

 3     Serbian Municipality of Zvornik.  In fact, were they evacuated from the

 4     Serbian municipalities or from the joint municipality?  You know it was

 5     planned to have two municipalities.  Do you know whether it was planned

 6     for Muslims not to live in the Serbian part?

 7        A.   I know that before the outbreak of the conflict, the population

 8     was mixed, Serbian and Muslims.  After the outbreak of the conflict, the

 9     Muslims were evacuated, whereas refugees from other areas came to Zvornik

10     as had been agreed earlier by the politicians.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Just one more point from the transcript.  Two points.

12     On page 93, under quotation marks, there is a reference to "our heroes

13     from Kovacevici," did you understand that reference as ironic, as a

14     reference to those who fled Kovacevici because the word "heroes" is under

15     quotation marks?

16        A.   I can't see that anyone was a hero at that time, especially in

17     the early days of the conflict.  Why it is worded as "our heroes", I

18     don't know.

19        Q.   If you call somebody who ran away a hero, it must be irony, or

20     not?

21        A.   Well, those who run are rarely heroes.  Now, whether it's irony

22     or not, I couldn't say.

23        Q.   One more thing we will come back to later.  On page 81, you were

24     asked whether the police secured some of the prisons and detention

25     facilities.  I want to ask you were they able to prevent a regular

Page 19153

 1     citizen from coming in and, more importantly, were they able to stop

 2     paramilitaries from coming in?

 3        A.   Regular citizens never went in, in the first place.  And they

 4     were unable to prevent paramilitaries because they were not strong

 5     enough.  The paramilitaries were always stronger.  They had combat

 6     experience from earlier wars, whereas the policemen were regular people

 7     who had simply done regular police work before the outbreak of the

 8     conflict.  They were unable to cope with that situation.

 9        Q.   Could we briefly look at P325 in e-court?  P325.  I think it's

10     something else.

11             Do you remember one rally in Zvornik, organised by the

12     Democratic Party of Federalists, Dr. Djukanovic, where Zulfikar Pasic and

13     I took part on the occasion of the historic Muslim/Serbian agreement to

14     stop the war?  Do you recall that big rally in the summer of 1991?

15        A.   I remember it took place, but I wasn't there.  I don't know what

16     it was about.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that in the entire

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbian side was complaining about the MUP

19     increasing the number of policemen to the detriment of the Serbs and in

20     favour of Muslims?

21        A.   Yes.  That was the case in Zvornik as well.

22        Q.   Do you agree that the Serbian people were anxious that it might

23     lead to the creation of a para-army that would confront the Serbs, like

24     it had already happened in Croatia, organised by Tudjman?  There was

25     similarity?

Page 19154

 1        A.   At that time, people were talking about that.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall or were you aware that some Muslims,

 3     with extremist inclinations, went to Croatia as volunteers to wage war

 4     against Serbs on the Croatian side?

 5        A.   Yes.  People were saying that there were some volunteers who went

 6     for training in Croatia.

 7        Q.   Well, that's a different question.  Did you know that the SDA was

 8     sending people from Zvornik, Vlasenica and the entire area of Birac, they

 9     were sending their own members, policemen, to be trained in Croatia

10     although we had our own training centres in Bosnia?

11        A.   I personally did not know, but I heard from other people, that

12     they did go for training to Croatia.

13        Q.   I would now like to quote something, and I'll do it in English so

14     it would be interpreted better.  Something you said in your interview

15     with the OTP on 17 October 2002, it's 65 ter 22580, page 35.  You said,

16     and I don't know if I'm quoting correctly:

17             [In English] "There was a joint police force in Zvornik you" --

18     [Interpretation] You were.  [In English] You said that the deputy

19     commander for traffic police, Adnan Karovic, mobilised only Muslims to

20     come and to secure the SUP, the police station.  You were upset by that.

21     You said that the -- it was frustrating for you that Adam Karovic only

22     invited Muslims from Tuzla sent there to secure the police station.

23             [Interpretation] One quotation was from page 21 and the other

24     from page 35.

25             Now, let me ask you, witness, is it the case that the split in

Page 19155

 1     the MUP along ethnic lines started very early on, as a result of

 2     misunderstandings and the leadership in the MUP always favoured their own

 3     ethnic community?

 4        A.   Officially, the MUP was divided in Zvornik on 6 April, but the

 5     division started much earlier, and it's true that the man called Adnan,

 6     not Adam, Karovic called only upon Muslim policemen on that day to secure

 7     the MUP.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that there were suspicions and it was

 9     not advisable to send Serbian policemen to chase Muslim criminals in

10     Muslim areas and villages?  Do you agree that this was the reason why the

11     police force, joint as it was, could not operate properly?

12        A.   Yes.  Already at that time, patrols were mixed, one Serb, one

13     Muslim, and if the criminal concerned was Muslim, Muslim policemen

14     handled it, and if it was a Serb criminal, or offender, Serb policemen

15     would intervene.

16        Q.   You said, in the transcript of this interview on page 23, that

17     you do not know, you did not see Zvornik station receive any instructions

18     from Pale.  Can we agree that all your communications were towards the

19     ministry along the chain of command, not towards Pale?

20        A.   As far as the work of SUP Zvornik is concerned, the

21     communications ran normally towards the Ministry of the Interior.  In the

22     early days, communications were not working, so they were diverted

23     through the Bijeljina centre.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember the Lisbon Conference and the fact

25     that we were given the right to have our own republic and our own police

Page 19156

 1     force on 18 March?  You must have read about it in the media.  I know you

 2     were not there.

 3        A.   I can't remember.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that in this statement, the interview

 5     with the OTP in 2002, you stated that you had heard rumours about

 6     Green Berets, that they were coming to town and they were dangerous?

 7        A.   Yes.  People were saying in Zvornik that the Patriotic league and

 8     the Green Berets had been established and that even some reserve

 9     policemen have green berets in the boots of their car, and after their

10     regular working hours, work as security men in local communes.

11        Q.   So effectively, the MUP was divided because the reserve force was

12     reinforced by Muslims, because Serbs were no longer able to go to Muslim

13     communities, and vice versa because of the Patriotic League and the

14     Green Berets, so the division of the MUP took place long before 6 April?

15        A.   I couldn't pinpoint exactly when the division effectively started

16     but I know it started earlier than 6 April.

17        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, in this interview with the OTP, on

18     page 35, you say, and I'm going to read it out in English, actually, you

19     said that this significantly contributed to the acceleration of the

20     crisis.  Actually a murder of a JNA officer and the firing at a JNA

21     column in Sapna that that significantly contributed to it.  Do you

22     remember that happening on 5 April when, as a convoy was leaving for

23     Yugoslavia, the local Muslims in Sapna attacked it quite unnecessarily,

24     killing an officer and wounding some soldiers?

25        A.   Yes.  I remember that happening, and I think that Vasilic Marinko

Page 19157

 1     and Mujic Fadil went from the SUP to carry out the on-site investigation.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You were also aware, and you spoke about that in the

 3     Zupljanin case on 12 November, that is 65 ter 22584, on page 2974, you

 4     said that you were aware that there was a Muslim Crisis Staff that was

 5     led by Sakib Halilovic.  Actually, you didn't know exactly whether he was

 6     the commander, you knew the man but you didn't know whether he was the

 7     commander of the staff but you knew that the staff had been established,

 8     right, also that it was established a lot before the Serb Crisis Staff

 9     was established?

10        A.   Yes.  I heard that it had been established but I'm not sure

11     whether it was Sakib or Asim who was the commander.

12        Q.   Thank you.  You also said in that same transcript that you were

13     aware that the Patriotic League had been established and the

14     Green Berets.  Did you know that there were other paramilitary

15     formations, Muslim paramilitary formations like the Mosque Doves, the

16     Black Swans, the Cobras and so on.  Have you heard of all of these?

17        A.   I heard that such units existed, but I did not come across them.

18     Possibly I knew them but I didn't know that they were members.

19        Q.   Do you remember that the Muslim Crisis Staff imposed a curfew in

20     Zvornik?  You spoke about that in the Zupljanin case on page 2976, that

21     is 65 ter 22584.  Actually I'm saying all of this for the Trial Chamber,

22     the participants.  I mean this number.  I don't want it to confuse you.

23     Do you remember that you confirmed or rather that you said during that

24     testimony that the Muslim Crisis Staff imposed a curfew in Zvornik?

25        A.   Yes.  They secured particular facilities separately.

Page 19158

 1        Q.   Do we agree that the Serb people in the urban part of Zvornik, as

 2     well as throughout the Municipality of Zvornik, were in fear for months

 3     before the war because of this paramilitary force and because of this

 4     behaviour of the Muslim leadership?  Was there fear among the Serb people

 5     and were they leaving Zvornik?

 6        A.   Stories like that started even before.  Also, people were saying

 7     that the situation from the previous war would repeat itself, that Serbs

 8     would not be able to live there any more.  I heard stories like that.

 9        Q.   That was the Muslim position, right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You said in the Zupljanin case, on page 2869, same

12     number, you said that there was a division of the municipality, or rather

13     that there were negotiations aimed at transforming the municipality into

14     two.  You said or actually do you agree that what existed was a purely

15     rural and purely Muslim area and that in town there was an area that was

16     predominantly Serb and another that was predominantly Muslim?  You

17     mentioned this river and from there onwards, the Serb municipality would

18     start, right?  Zlatica, whatever the name of the river was, Zlatica, from

19     Zlatica towards Karakaj, that was supposed to be Serb and the rest was

20     supposed to be Muslim, right?

21        A.   Yes.  That is what was being discussed.  First there was a

22     discussion of joint patrols that would patrol the entire region, and the

23     other option was to have a division, that Muslim -- the Muslim part of

24     Zvornik should go to Zlatica and then from Zlatica towards Karakaj that

25     would be the Serb part of Zvornik.  As for the surrounding villages, most

Page 19159

 1     of them were Serb, Lok, Pilica, Rocevici.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  That was on page 77 so I do apologise a bit, 2877,

 3     that was the page.  All right.  Of course, it's not that there would be a

 4     border there.  It would be an administrative division, like in Sarajevo

 5     and elsewhere, where there are several municipalities, right?

 6        A.   Yes.  That was the option.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You said in this interview with the OTP that you had

 8     never heard of Variant A or B, and that you did not notice that something

 9     was being implemented on the basis of that paper, right?

10        A.   Yes.  That was the first time I heard about some Variant A and B,

11     in court.

12        Q.   Thank you.  1D3939, can we please have a look at that in e-court?

13     1D3939.  I believe we have a translation too.  Could the page on the left

14     be zoomed in for the witness?  Yes, yes, that's it.

15             I'd like to draw your attention to this decision on the

16     proclamation of the Serb Municipality of Zvornik of 15 March 1992.  Do

17     you agree that what is written there is that the Serb Municipality of

18     Zvornik is being proclaimed and in Article 2, that it says that it will

19     consist of areas of local communes and urban and rural areas where the

20     Serb people constitute a majority?  So what you've been saying is that,

21     isn't it:  Where the Serbs are a majority there would be a Serb

22     municipality and where the Muslims are a majority there would be a Muslim

23     municipality, right?  Yes, you can see it in English?

24        A.   Yes, that's what the decision says.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 19160

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1693, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You say in your testimony in Zupljanin, that is page 2980, that

 6     in April the Muslims started guarding buildings in the town of Zvornik

 7     itself, and that they introduced check-points where they checked people,

 8     where they asked for IDs and were searching for weapons that were being

 9     smuggled already then.

10        A.   Yes.  At the time the Muslim population had already started

11     securing various facilities and a few days later the Serb population

12     started securing their own facilities.

13        Q.   So there was a maximum distrust, right?

14        A.   Yes.  As soon as they started providing security on an individual

15     basis for their own buildings.

16        Q.   1D3666, could we see that in e-court now?  Is it correct that

17     quite a lot of people, civilians, both Muslims and Serbs, started leaving

18     before the war, especially Serbs?  They started crossing the Drina River

19     and going to Serbia?

20        A.   Yes.  After the conflict broke out --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Panic.  Yes, Ms. Elliott?

22             MS. ELLIOTT:  I believe this was admitted as P3390, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] It doesn't say it's been admitted,

25     3390, was that yesterday?  Whenever?

Page 19161

 1             MS. ELLIOTT:  It was an associated exhibit with Mr. Panic's

 2     Stanisic and Zupljanin testimony, I believe.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   So, Mr. Panic, you are aware of this document.  It's a report

 5     dated 7 January 1993 and it has to do with 1992.  I remember you

 6     mentioning that.  It has to do with the work of the police in Zvornik,

 7     right?

 8        A.   Yes, that's right.

 9        Q.   Can we have page 3?  Please focus on this, the lower part of the

10     page, in the month of March, there is an open split between the

11     employees.  I don't have to read it all out.  You can read it yourself.

12     And in English it's probably on page 3 or 4 as well.  It has to do with

13     the functioning of the MUP.  Could we please have page 3 in English?  See

14     what it says here, between 10 and 15 March, as well as on 23 and 27

15     March, policemen of Muslim ethnicity were mobilised, which led the Serbs

16     in the public security station to organise a rally that was attended by

17     the chief of the CSB Tuzla, the chief of the milicija of the CSB Tuzla

18     and an employee of the SDB from the CSB Tuzla.  This rally was supposed

19     to be attended by a representative of the MUP as well but he did not

20     come.  It's actually the next page in English.  Do you remember that

21     rally?  Do you remember all that drama about this division and this

22     mobilisation of the reserve force, the Muslim reserve force, an

23     explanation was demanded, who had ordered this mobilisation of employees

24     of Muslim ethnicity and so on?

25        A.   Yes.  I remember.  That is the case of Adnan Karovic.

Page 19162

 1        Q.   Ah-hah.  Thank you.  Then Serb employees left the rally by way of

 2     a demonstration.  Can you read all the rest of it, to the end?  And it

 3     says this Muslim employee in charge of communications said that on the

 4     telephone Adnan Karovic -- can we have the next page in Serbian --

 5     Adnan Karovic, the deputy commander of the traffic police station had

 6     given the order for mobilisation by telephone, right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have -- yes, yes.  It's the next page, next

 9     paragraph, Serb employees came up with an ultimatum saying that things

10     could not be done that way adding that if a division was necessary, it

11     should be carried out peacefully.  Is that the way it was?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please look at B down here, on 4 April, in

14     English it also starts on this page, 6.  The assistant commander and the

15     commander who were Serbs went to a meeting of the Crisis Staff in

16     Ugljevik to discuss further activities, right?  And that is when this

17     officer or non-commissioned officer, was killed in Sapna and another

18     soldier was wounded, right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  We are not going to dwell on this any longer and the

21     document has been admitted anyway.  So this started on 4 April?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let us confirm whether this is part of what is

23     already admitted.

24                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Some part of the document is written in Cyrillic and

Page 19163

 1     the other part Roman.  I'm just checking whether -- can you upload

 2     Exhibit P3390 to confirm?

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] This has a number, has a date and

 4     the signature of the chief.  And the number of the copy.  It says it's an

 5     internal document, official secret.  We could see that on the first page

 6     in English.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I confirm it's part of the exhibit P3390.  Let

 8     us continue.  Yes.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Then you say that on 7 April there was a meeting in Mali Zvornik

11     and for the benefit of the Trial Chamber, I should say that Mali Zvornik

12     is a part of Zvornik that remained in Serbia, just across the river.

13     Correct?

14        A.   Yes.  Mali Zvornik is in Serbia.

15        Q.   Thank you.  It was an attempt to agree on how to divide the

16     municipality, and it was attended by representatives of Serbs and of

17     Muslims, and then you say Arkan slapped Serb representatives about,

18     saying, "There would be no such agreement."  You said that in the

19     Zupljanin trial on page 2877.

20        A.   Yes.  He slapped Dragan Spasojevic, Brano Grujic and the Muslims'

21     president.  I can't remember the man's name.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that sometime from 3 or 4 April until 7 or

23     8, Serbs ran en masse to Karakaj and across the river to Serbia?

24        A.   Yes.  After that incident with the killing of the officer in

25     Sapna, a lot of the Serbs crossed over to Serbia or joined their

Page 19164

 1     relatives in villages further away, leaving Zvornik.

 2        Q.   You said there was then an attack by Arkan on Zvornik and there

 3     was fighting with Serbian forces?

 4        A.   Yes.  I believe it was on 8 April that Zvornik was attacked, and

 5     there was some but not much resistance by Muslim forces.

 6        Q.   Is it true that their leadership ran away immediately after the

 7     meeting with Arkan?  They left their units and that's why the resistance

 8     was so poor?  They withdrew to Kula?

 9        A.   Yes.  Even earlier on, they had disagreements in their

10     leadership, between Asim Zubar and the other leader who was president of

11     the municipality, and they withdrew, yes.  They pulled out.

12        Q.   You said you saw, after the initial clashes, some dead bodies in

13     civilian clothing.  Do you agree that civilians also took part in the

14     fighting and if such a person were killed, somebody else would pick up

15     their weapon and go on?  Is it true that civilian clothing, itself, did

16     not mean that a person did not take part in combat, such as Fahrudin,

17     Nale and similar people?  Were they able to fight still wearing civilian

18     clothes?

19        A.   Yes, it's quite possible because in the early days of the

20     conflict, many Serbs and Muslims had weapons but had no uniforms, or they

21     would have the top of the uniform and wear it with jeans.

22        Q.   And then you said that after 10 days, Zvornik was practically

23     empty.  You spoke about that in your interview with the OTP, page 5 of

24     the 65 ter 22581, but also in your evidence in Zupljanin, page 2982, you

25     said it was empty after Arkan pulled out, Zvornik was empty.  Serbs and

Page 19165

 1     Muslims alike had fled.

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   Can we look at 65 ter 30665?  You've already said that the

 4     communications had broken down and it was very difficult to get anyone on

 5     the telephone.

 6        A.   That's correct.  And if there was something urgent, we sent a

 7     messenger to Bijeljina.

 8        Q.   What about Pale and Sarajevo?  You couldn't even send messengers

 9     there, the roads were blocked or rather you could take a round-about via

10     Crni Vrh but it was risky.

11        A.   We informed and reported to Bijeljina centre, and we couldn't

12     report to Pale at all.

13        Q.   Now, look at this, please.  This is a recorded telephone

14     conversation of 16 April 1992 between Jesiric and Cedo Kljajic.  Did you

15     know who these people were?

16        A.   Never heard of Jesiric.  I heard of somebody called Jesuric in

17     Bijeljina.  Also never heard of Cedo Kljajic.

18        Q.   Next page, please.  In both versions.  In English, we need page

19     3.  Look at the top.

20             Jesuric says, "So, everything is normal in Bijeljina, things are

21     returning to normal in Zvornik," and he's saying this to Cedo Kljajic,

22     who was for your information some sort of chief at the ministry.

23     Probably in charge of the police.  Jesuric says, "15.000 Muslims ran to

24     Serbia, which means they are not afraid of Serbs."

25             And Cedo Kljajic says, "They escaped to Mali Zvornik, right?"

Page 19166

 1             Jesuric says yes.

 2             Cedo Kljajic says, "To Serbia, they escaped to Serbia so they

 3     trust the Serbian people."

 4             Is this also consistent with your knowledge that both sides were

 5     free to run to Serbia and they did?

 6        A.   Yes.  They went to Serbia, to Mali Zvornik, and those displaced

 7     persons we had mentioned before also went to Serbia.

 8        Q.   Do you agree, then, that the Serbian leadership had nothing

 9     against the people?  Nobody tried to stop them from fleeing to Serbia,

10     from finding shelter there.  It was a conflict with the extremists who

11     had sets up these paramilitary Muslim armies?

12        A.   Yes.  There was even a time when the SUP issued them with permits

13     to cross over to Serbia, the Muslims, I mean.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this document be MFIed?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Elliott?

17             MS. ELLIOTT:  No objection, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will mark it for identification.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1694, Your Honours.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now see

21     P1478?  The diary of General Mladic.  Serbian page 250, English page 252.

22     Typewritten version.  Serbian 250, English 252.

23        Q.   While we are waiting, do you remember that the issue of

24     volunteers was governed by law, and most of these men were first

25     volunteers and then became renegades and paramilitaries?  They would

Page 19167

 1     report to the Territorial Defence as volunteers, but they would not go to

 2     the front line as assigned, they would return as renegades and

 3     paramilitaries?

 4        A.   Yes.  At first they joined the Territorial Defence, and then the

 5     army and the police, but then they would leave and start acting

 6     independently.

 7        Q.   Look at line 2, volunteer units enjoyed exceptional success led

 8     by Arkan and Seselj.  Arkan's unit withdrew in orderly fashion but some

 9     others that stayed went out of control.

10             Do you see what's written there?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  This has already been admitted in its entirely,

13     right?  The whole diary?

14             We see that already at that time Arkan withdrew immediately while

15     other volunteer units turned into something quite different.

16        A.   Yes.  Those were mostly units led by Pivarski, Niski, Zuca, the

17     White Eagles, some individuals who didn't belong anywhere, they looted

18     and ran amok in villages.

19        Q.   It says also here that Captain Dragan appeared and complicated

20     the situation and says some units formally joined the brigade but in

21     reality they do whatever they please.  Is that consistent with your

22     knowledge?

23        A.   Yes, some individuals would report to the brigade but they

24     continued acting independently.

25        Q.   You spoke about the situation in Kozluk.  Can we call up in

Page 19168

 1     e-court 65 ter 12163?  Is it true that you knew that Fadil Banjanovic was

 2     negotiating and working to avoid conflicts as the leader of his own

 3     community in Kozluk?

 4        A.   Yes, Fadil Banjanovic was the leader of that community and to

 5     this day he's helping the return of those people.

 6        Q.   Look at this, please.  This is the stamp of the local commune of

 7     Kozluk and we see the header local commune of Kozluk 16 April 1992 and

 8     this is a list, if you will confirm, of Kozluk residents who had handed

 9     in weapons and ammunition?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Received pistols, carbines, hunting rifles.  Carbine is not

12     unlike the M-48 rifle except it has sights and is equipped to be a

13     hunting weapon.

14        A.   Yes.  A carbine is a hunting weapon, but it can be used in

15     combat.

16        Q.   If it has optical sights and it could be used even as a sniper

17     rifle, correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Could we leaf through this document to see all the kinds of

20     weapons that were turned in and the total number?  Can we see the bottom?

21     The last page.  There are combined rifles, all sorts of things.  In

22     total, 87 people handed in their weapons, and we see the signatures of

23     Fadil Banjanovic, Omer Harambasic, Jusuf Durakovic and Adnan Malhosevic

24     or whatever, and it was received by Zoran Pazen.  The names on the left

25     are the names of the members of the Muslim panel that handed in these

Page 19169

 1     weapons, correct?

 2        A.   Yes, correct.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can this be admitted?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We will mark it for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1695, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I think there is a translation.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm afraid not.  That can be sorted out later on.

 8     Let us continue.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   So do you remember that on one occasion they gathered asking to

11     be allowed to leave for Tuzla, they were organised and even the Orthodox

12     priest came and the Muftija came and they managed to talk them out of it

13     and provided an ambulance vehicle and many other things to persuade them

14     to stay in Zvornik?  Do you remember that?

15        A.   Yes.  I remember there were rumours about it.

16        Q.   In your interview with the OTP, from 2007, that's 1D04259, you

17     said there was no fighting in Kozluk but their safety was compromised by

18     the paramilitaries.  Is that what you stated?

19        A.   Yes.  There was no combat and that's very fortunate, thanks to

20     Fadil Banjanovic.  If they had taken up arms there would have been losses

21     on both sides and their safety was only at risk from paramilitaries.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So let me just ask this:  On the second occasion,

23     because of all these dangers they left for Subotica and then on to

24     Europe.  Is it true that almost all of them returned alive and well and

25     that this town is, again, a Muslim town predominantly?

Page 19170

 1        A.   Yes.  Most of them did return.  They moved into their own homes

 2     and the town, thanks to Banjanovic, who is a deputy in the BH assembly --

 3        Q.   Yes.  It is thriving.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No, because of that overlapping, your question was

 5     not interpreted.  Could you repeat it, Mr. Karadzic?

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Did you say that the town was thriving, developing, thanks to

 8     Banjanovic?

 9        A.   Yes, thanks to Fadil Banjanovic and his cooperation with the

10     Government of Republika Srpska.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In the previous answer, it was not recorded that the

12     town remained.  Were the houses kept intact?  Did the refugees who used

13     those homes, did they take good care of them and then handed them over to

14     the Muslims who returned?

15        A.   Yes.  The houses were preserved and the old owners moved back in.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Panic, you said the Muslims returned.  Can I

18     know when they returned?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell you exactly, but the

20     people returned to Kozluk relatively soon after the war, perhaps a year

21     or two later.

22             JUDGE KWON:  After the war.  Thank you.

23             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Was the situation similar with Divic, that the refugees there too

Page 19171

 1     preserved the homes and returned them to the old owners and that almost

 2     all of them returned, and this was another one of the predominantly and

 3     large Muslim communities in the Zvornik municipality?  Correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  That is true.  Most of them did return, and even the mosque

 5     was renovated, the mosque which had been destroyed earlier.  It was

 6     renovated and -- and transferred to a different location.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you talk in your transcript, the interview with

 8     the Prosecutor, of 2002, on page 26, that's 65 ter 22580, that's the

 9     document I'm referring to, you said there that Arkan and the

10     paramilitaries beat up Serb policemen and forced them to put an eagle

11     insignia on their berets; is that correct?

12        A.   As for the insignia, the person known as Topola who introduced

13     himself as Seselj's soldier, they beat, after the Serb police withdrew

14     from the town into Alhos, he beat a policeman, one of them, Milanovic,

15     Milos, I believe, even cocked his gun and prevented him from further

16     beating these people and this was -- he did this because they actually

17     the policemen removed the eagles from their berets and put back the

18     five-pronged star on them.

19        Q.   Thank you.  It would appear that we have an error with the

20     document we called earlier and it's very important for the witness to see

21     this list.  Could we please show it on the ELMO?  Through an error, it is

22     not in e-court.

23             JUDGE KWON:  But you do have a 65 ter number now?

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] We thought we did have it when we

25     called for it, but apparently that's not the correct number.

Page 19172

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let us proceed and see what it is about.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] But there is an ERN number, that

 3     is a list.

 4        Q.   Would you agree with me that this was on 21 March 1992, that we

 5     see here a list of active-duty police and there are only 29 police

 6     officers on the list, some of whom were senior-duty officers?  Could we

 7     just lift this a bit?  And now, as of number 16, we see that police

 8     officers are named.  So we can see on the list that there is a total of

 9     29 police officers.  Could you -- 29 police officers and number 16

10     through 29 were working in the field.  Would this show that this was

11     really far below the normal needs, for normal functioning of the police,

12     for maintaining law and order?

13        A.   Yes.  And this was together with the traffic police.  So all of

14     these men, they were all one and the same police station.

15        Q.   Meaning the traffic police only deal with traffic issues, so

16     would that indicate that this was really far below the necessity?

17        A.   Well, yes, as far as the manpower is concerned, yes, it's not

18     enough men.

19        Q.   Could you please put it down a bit?  At the time in question,

20     your name appears here as the deputy commander, correct?

21        A.   Well, yes, for 15 or 20 days, before Momcilo Maric came from

22     Tuzla, who then took over, and he was the deputy and I was assistant

23     commander.

24        Q.   Could we now -- I would like to tender this document.  There is

25     very little to be translated.  Most of this consists of names.

Page 19173

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes?  Ms. Elliott?

 2             MS. ELLIOTT:  We have a translation here.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then it will be admitted as

 4     Exhibit D1696.  Did you have the 65 ter number for that?

 5             MS. ELLIOTT:  No, Your Honour, it doesn't have a 65 ter number.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Well, was this the reason why you were prompted to say, in the

 9     interview of 2002, on page 39, 65 ter 22580, that this -- did this prompt

10     you to say that the existence of the police at the time was totally

11     useless because the paramilitary forces were there and they did not allow

12     any work to be done by the police, and if police officers were in --

13     disobedient, if they failed to act upon their orders, that they would be

14     beaten up and that Zekic was beaten up by Gogic, himself, and so on and

15     so forth?

16        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

17        Q.   The existence of the police was pointless because it was unable

18     to do anything, correct?

19        A.   Yes.  As far as the police, the active duty police was concerned,

20     there was a very small number of them and there was a far greater number

21     of paramilitaries who had been at various battlefields, they were

22     accustomed to fighting and all kinds of combat and the police was not.

23        Q.   Thank you.  On page 30 of the same interview, you say that there

24     were occasions where paramilitaries would send the police, force them to

25     go to the front line and they, themselves, would remain in the town and

Page 19174

 1     then go mistreating and harassing both Serbs and non-Serbs, that they

 2     issued orders to the police, that they sent the police to the front line,

 3     whereas they themselves remained in the rear and then went on harassing

 4     the citizens regardless of their ethnicity or faith?

 5        A.   Yes.  That was especially the case in the beginning.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that Zuca even introduced a wartime

 7     tribunal, court, and that the police had to implement his, Gogic's,

 8     orders?  Is that correct?  You also speak about this in your interview of

 9     2002 on page 53.

10        A.   Yes.  Zuca actually established a court martial of sorts, and --

11        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that the municipality also introduced

12     and declared a state of imminent threat of war and general mobilisation,

13     and that this was in contravention of their powers and they did this

14     because they did not -- they were -- they had lost contact with the

15     central authorities?  These were, in fact, the competencies of the

16     republic, correct?

17        A.   Yes.  It did take all these steps that you mentioned, but I don't

18     know if it had any contacts with republic.

19        Q.   Thank you.  But would you agree with me that the municipality did

20     not have the authority to declare mobilisation, to declare a state of

21     war, it did not have the competence to carry out any of these state

22     functions unless it was completely cut off from the state?

23        A.   Yes.  That's correct.

24        Q.   You said, on page 30 that there was a lot of tension between the

25     paramilitaries and parapolice and then on page 33 of the same document,

Page 19175

 1     you go on to say that special passes were issued that allowed people, and

 2     this was done at Alhos at first and then later on on the premises of the

 3     MUP, that allowed the civilians in Zvornik, both Muslims and Serbs, to

 4     move freely through check-points and that at first nothing bad happened

 5     if a person had a pass, but that then later on the paramilitary forces

 6     just introduced their own rules; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   On the same page, you say that the police usually allowed these

 9     people through or advised them to stay in a certain area for their own

10     security and that this was the case with both Serbs and Muslims; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.  And this was because of the threats from the

13     paramilitaries.

14        Q.   Thank you.  On page -- in the Stojan Zupljanin transcript on page

15     2896 you say that these paramilitaries captured people and established

16     prisons.  In other words they had prisons, they had an armed force, and

17     they even had a court martial; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes, all the prisons, both at the beginning and later on, were

19     established by paramilitary forces, and there were some military police

20     prisons, but in the end, only very late, the police took over control of

21     these prisons.

22        Q.   And you're talking about the time when the paramilitaries had

23     already been expelled from there.  This happened after they had been

24     driven away.  While they were there, no one could take over; correct?

25        A.   Yes, that's correct.  None of us, or the military police, were

Page 19176

 1     able to get into those prisons.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you say that in the second half of May, you said

 3     this in your same testimony at page 2688, that even when the brigade was

 4     established, the Zvornik Brigade, Zuca tried for a while to subjugate it,

 5     to put it under his control for a while; is that correct?  That he wanted

 6     to impose himself on them and to be in control of them and command them

 7     as well by force?  [In English] "At some point, Zuca took over by force

 8     and was brigade commander for a while."  [Interpretation] Was this

 9     brigade established out of the existing Territorial Defence of Zvornik?

10        A.   Yes.  In the beginning, when he started building an armoured

11     train in Glinica but didn't manage to, then the brigade was established

12     and it took over.

13        Q.   Thank you.  These prisons that they established, you say that in

14     Alhos, there weren't any prisons.  Rather, that people were kept for a

15     very short periods of time for investigation purposes, and you said that

16     Serbs were kept there as well.  You said that you saw a Serb there who

17     had tried to rob a bank.  You said that in your interview of 2002, on

18     page 44.  Now we are talking about Alhos.  So in Alhos there wasn't a

19     prison.  It was -- it was -- it was a detention facility for shorter

20     periods of time, during which detainees were supposed to be questioned;

21     right?

22        A.   Yes.  As far as police station work is concerned, people were

23     brought in and questioned briefly.  However, I heard that paramilitary

24     units were bringing people in there, in the beginning.  As for police

25     work, it just had to do with short detentions and questioning, and also

Page 19177

 1     that particular case of attempted bank robbery.

 2        Q.   And that was a Serb, right, so they were brought in there

 3     irrespective of faith and ethnicity, right?  That's what the police did?

 4        A.   Yes, that's right.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In this same interview, on page 45 through 47, you

 6     confirmed that you never beat or killed anyone, that you never issued

 7     such orders, and that you did not even see any beatings or killings.

 8     However, you only heard about that.  This is Alhos.  We are talking about

 9     Alhos all the time now.  Is that correct?

10        A.   Yes, that's correct.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if it is convenient, the Chamber is

12     minded to take a bit longer break, for 35 minutes.  Very well.

13             With respect to the Prosecution's request for leave to reply to

14     the accused's latest response regarding the ICMP, the Chamber has

15     considered the submissions from the parties and decided to deny the

16     request on the basis that the reply will not be addressing anything new.

17             We will resume at 11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.24 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Harvey?

21             MR. HARVEY:  Good afternoon, Your Honours, just to introduce my

22     colleague, Mr. Matthew Odgers, who is a pro bono legal assistant who has

23     been working with my team since June and will remain with us until

24     December.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 19178

 1             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue your cross-examination.

 2             MR. KARADZIC:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] You've said, and we have agreed, that you had

 4     not seen any beatings or killings, especially as far as Alhos was

 5     concerned.  Do you agree that, generally speaking, there was a shortage

 6     of eyewitnesses and that these paramilitaries did try not to do things

 7     like that in front of policemen, not to commit crimes in the presence of

 8     policemen?

 9        A.   Yes.  Not in front of policemen or in front of active-duty

10     military personnel.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In Standard, you said; isn't that right, you

12     mentioned that on page 50 of your 2002 statement, and also in the

13     Zupljanin transcript, on page 2940, and in the transcript of that

14     interview, pages 49 and 50, you actually said that what happened in

15     standard was that three Muslims were killed and that one escaped and that

16     the reason for that was the allegation that they had killed a man from

17     the police company in Zvornik near the monument and then some people from

18     the Milic company took them to a valley and then Zuca killed these men;

19     right?  One escaped, there were four of them.  One escaped and three were

20     killed; right?

21        A.   All three were killed in Standard, in the basement.  A member of

22     the Milic company killed them and one escaped.  They were killed at the

23     barracks in Standard.

24        Q.   So that means that that happened in connection with some soldier

25     from the Milic company; right?  That they killed that soldier; right?

Page 19179

 1     Out of revenge?  They killed this soldier and then the soldier's

 2     colleagues took their revenge; right?

 3        A.   Yes.  I heard that a soldier from Milici was killed near the

 4     monument in Zvornik and then this Milic company when they returned to

 5     Standard, they found these four Muslims there, killed three of them, one

 6     managed to escape.  Karaosmanovic was the name of the people who were

 7     killed and then one person escaped.

 8        Q.   So this person was killed in town near the monument, not at the

 9     front line, right, that Serb from the Milic company, was killed in town,

10     not at the front line, right?

11        A.   Yes.  In town, by the monument.  In town, there wasn't any combat

12     at the time.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             You did not report that.  No one reported that incident; right?

15     You spoke about that in this transcript, the trial of Mr. Zupljanin,

16     2940, 2941.  Did anyone dare report that?

17        A.   None of us reported that, and there wasn't a need to do that

18     because the military police was right at the entrance into the Standard

19     building.  It was the military that had committed that killing so it was

20     the military police that was supposed to intervene.

21        Q.   Ah-hah.  So what those Muslims did was a crime against the

22     military because the victim was a soldier; right?

23        A.   I think that these four men were brought to the barracks by

24     military personnel and that they happened to be there at the time.

25        Q.   Thank you.  You say further on that the only real prison was in

Page 19180

 1     Novi Izvor.  Yesterday, you explained that it wasn't at the brick factory

 2     where some paramilitary had established some kind of detention facility

 3     but rather it was at the administration building in the town of Zvornik

 4     itself, the administration building of Novi Izvor close to the

 5     misdemeanours court; isn't that right?

 6        A.   Yes, that's right.

 7        Q.   You said, when you testified in Mr. Zupljanin's trial, 3023 is

 8     the page reference, people were detained because of what they had

 9     committed, and that had nothing to do with their ethnic or religious

10     backgrounds; right?

11        A.   Yes.  That's right.  But there was this group of persons there

12     who had stayed on, people who had been detained earlier on by the

13     military police, and the military police had secured that until the

14     civilian police had taken over.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Panic, can we say that, as far as you know how

16     this real prison functions and the police and the misdemeanours court and

17     so on and so forth, can we say that Muslims were not being detained

18     because of their faith and the Serbs did not have it easy just because of

19     their faith?

20        A.   It can be put that way, especially because it was the active

21     civilian police that was guarding the prison.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You say further on that there had been incidents

23     wherein the paramilitaries tried to get into the Novi Izvor and the

24     regular policemen who guarded that prison were threatened with knives and

25     guns by these paramilitaries, and you said you never heard or seen

Page 19181

 1     military policemen go into the prison and beat the Muslims -- sorry,

 2     sorry, a moment.

 3             This first thing you said in your evidence in Zupljanin, that

 4     paramilitaries tried to scare regular policemen into allowing them into

 5     the prison, is that correct?  And you said also the policemen guarding

 6     Novi Izvor stopped that from happening?

 7        A.   Yes.  That's correct.  Because I heard that earlier, while the

 8     prison was guarded by the military police, individual paramilitaries did

 9     go into the prison.

10        Q.   And you mentioned one case when somebody went in to beat a Muslim

11     as a personal revenge because that person's brother had been killed?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You also stated in the same evidence, on page 3027, that

14     Sredo Vukovic, a regular policeman, a colleague of yours, had to

15     reinforce the locks and boost the security in the prison in general, to

16     stop the paramilitaries from going into the prison and mistreating the

17     inmates; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You also stated in your interview from 2007, 1D4259, page 12,

20     that food was brought from a hotel into this prison called Novi Izvor,

21     that was under the control of the regular police?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   In your 2007 statement, page 31, you said you knew that a certain

24     female by the name of Stojkic from Celopek had been arrested and brought

25     to Novi Izvor and it was not the police who arrested her but Niski,

Page 19182

 1     Pivarski, Topola and the others.  Spomenka Stojkic was the name.  Was she

 2     a Serb woman?

 3        A.   Yes, Spomenka Stojkic was arrested by the paramilitaries.  She

 4     was a Croat married to a Serb in Celopek.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You said that at the farm, some detainees were kept

 6     but you don't know who brought them there as detainees.  You learned

 7     about it only later, after it was finished.  You said that in your

 8     27 June 2007 statement, pages 56 and 57.  And that's all you know about

 9     that farm?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  At the cultural hall in Drinjaca, there were also

12     certain incidents and Pivarski spent most of his time there while Niski

13     was in the suburbs of Zvornik, such as Scemlija, Karakaj and others,

14     right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it correct that Drinjaca is a Serb neighbourhood in Zvornik

17     municipality but it was cut off from the town of Zvornik by Muslim

18     neighbourhoods that were controlled by the Muslims at the time, so you

19     couldn't get to Drinjaca directly from Zvornik?

20        A.   That's correct.  For about a year, you could not pass through the

21     tunnels to Drinjaca because all sorts of explosives were laid there, and

22     you had to go via Serbia.

23        Q.   You heard from some policemen that the paramilitaries, led by

24     Pivarski had killed some people there, you said you didn't know where

25     they were buried and some had in all likelihood run away.  You said that

Page 19183

 1     in your 2002 interview, page 49, is that true?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You further stated in the same statement, page 45 -- sorry, in

 4     your 2007 statement, page 45, that the police made sure to get out of

 5     Zuca's way and the way of Zuca's men, and they were unable to deal with

 6     them.  They were trying to stay out of trouble.  You also said the police

 7     did not venture into the suburbs which they kept.  The police didn't go

 8     to Drinjaca or the other suburbs controlled by Zuca and the other

 9     paramilitaries?

10        A.   Right.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned again in the examination-in-chief, and

12     in your statements, the Technical School in Karakaj.  In your 2002

13     statement, pages 6 and 8, you stated that the security and control over

14     that school were handled entirely by Repic, not the regular police.  In

15     fact, you mentioned it again in 2002, in the transcript, 9 through 12,

16     that the policemen who were there were not under the command of the

17     police station and yourself, they were instead given orders by these

18     paramilitaries.

19        A.   Yes.  The whole time, the Technical School was guarded by one of

20     our companies, but the paramilitaries went in as they pleased and when

21     they pleased, and the police were never able to stop them.

22        Q.   You also said, and it's on the transcript, pages 13, 14 -- I mean

23     the transcript from 2002 -- and page 14 as well, that you toured Muslim

24     neighbourhoods, together with Slavko Eric, to collect weapons, and you

25     said that Muslims trusted you and Slavko; right?

Page 19184

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Then you said that not even the commander, or the chief of

 3     police, were able to do anything if Zuca's men were involved in anything

 4     or had taken control of a certain location.

 5        A.   Yes.  That's true.  Zuca even threatened to take over the

 6     municipality building at one point.

 7        Q.   You mean the municipal administration?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Again speaking about the cultural hall in Celopek,

10     you said in your 2007 statement, pages 85 and 86, that reserve policemen

11     were very scared of Repic and it's highlighted in the transcript that

12     reserve policemen had no police training and did not have a prayer in

13     resisting Repic.  They had never even fired a bullet in their lives, let

14     alone at someone like him.

15        A.   [No interpretation]

16        Q.   While --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Your answer was not reflected in the

18     transcript but I take it you said yes, Mr. Panic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's correct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   We are now talking mainly about Celopek.  While your reserve

24     policemen had no training whatsoever, nor had any experience of shooting

25     at people, Repic and his men had plenty of combat experience, much better

Page 19185

 1     equipped than the police; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You also said that -- that was in the 2007 transcript, page 60 --

 4     you said the police in Celopek had received even a written order not to

 5     allow anyone in and that they are authorised to shoot at anyone who tries

 6     to come in and disturb the prisoners, but you also said that none of them

 7     dared resist Repic, in his long coat, who was carrying a long-barrelled

 8     Skorpion gun, correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   That was on page 62 of the 2007 statement.  It's in fact 62, not

11     60.

12             You also described in the same document, pages 16 and 17, that,

13     once, while in Celopek, you encountered Cvjetko Jovic who told you that

14     the paramilitaries, Repic, Niski, Pivarski and others, were present in

15     Celopek and they were all-powerful.  Jovic said he feared Repic more than

16     Muslim attacks, and he also said that Repic didn't care whom he killed,

17     Muslims or Serbs; is that right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   You spoke about that beginning with pages 16 and 17 in this

20     document.  Then 10, 19, 59 and 71.  And you again spoke about it in your

21     evidence in Zupljanin, page 2903.  And there are two more references in

22     the 2007 document, pages 59 and 60, and Zupljanin trial, 3013.  Yes,

23     that's right.  You also said, in the same transcript of 2007, pages

24     59-60, that the police had neither the material resources nor the courage

25     to arrest Repic because he was backed by Zuca's Brigade, which had more

Page 19186

 1     than 100 men, as I read somewhere, and which would have protected him, if

 2     necessary?

 3        A.   Yes.  Zuca was his brother.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And then in the same transcript, pages 59-60, you

 5     said that only the special unit was able to arrest him, and that's indeed

 6     what happened.  He was detained in Sabac, in Mitrovica, where he

 7     committed suicide, and that many people actually were relieved after his

 8     death, knowing that he would no longer be coming to Zvornik, correct?

 9     That's what you said in Zupljanin on page 3013, that everyone was

10     relieved knowing that he would no longer come there; correct?

11        A.   Yes.  That's correct.  Knowing Repic and what he was like, no one

12     really cared for meeting him again later.

13        Q.   You also said, in the 2007 transcript on page 26-27, that you did

14     not inquire with Vasilic whether he had reported on the activities of the

15     paramilitary groups.  You didn't know anything about that - correct? -

16     whether he had reported that to his superiors?

17        A.   Yes.  Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  There were instances where active duty police

19     officers -- please bear with me.  Later on, during the conflict, active

20     duty police officers took over and they provided security, and this was

21     something that the commander had ordered in order to ensure greater

22     security and protection for the detainees.  You said that in the

23     Zupljanin trial on page 3017.  Are you saying that the immediately

24     superior command level always cared for the protection and security of

25     the detainees?

Page 19187

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  In the 2006 interview, 65 ter 22581, it could be a

 3     2007 interview -- no, 2006.  On page 14, you said that there was an

 4     attempt in Divic, an attempted rape of a woman, and that this was

 5     perpetrated by a reserve police officer, that this was prevented, and

 6     that he was expelled from the police and that there was a criminal

 7     complaint filed against him; is that correct?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the people from Divic could

10     receive medical assistance in Novi Izvor and on the premises of the

11     misdemeanours court?  You said this in the Zupljanin trial on pages 3033

12     and 3034.  So that's correct, that they had access to medical care;

13     correct?

14        A.   Yes.  There was a doctor, a woman, everyone called her Bela, she

15     came to the prison.

16        Q.   You also stated that no one could have access while

17     Captain Dragan still ran this training centre, that no one was allowed

18     access there, nor could anyone enter the premises of Hotel Vidikovac; is

19     that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that during a lunch, Mladic actually had

22     verbally yelled at Captain Dragan and that after that he left Zvornik; is

23     that correct?

24        A.   No.  I didn't know.  I didn't hear of that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 19188

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Well, the transcript does not

 2     reflect this correctly.  The witness said, "I heard of that later on.  I

 3     didn't know anything about it at the time."

 4        Q.   Is that correct?  Was that your answer?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  As for written reports on the conduct of these

 7     paramilitary units, do you consider that people were afraid to submit

 8     written reports, and do you agree that a delegation went to Pale and also

 9     to Bijeljina to report orally on that, and that this had, as its outcome,

10     the arrest of these people?

11        A.   I think so.

12        Q.   Thank you.  You also describe the situation in Djulici and

13     Bijeli Potok in late May.  You said that it had been agreed that Muslims

14     from Klisa which is a village near Zvornik, were to be transferred via

15     Bijeli Potok and Memici to Kalesija municipality; is that correct, you

16     mentioned this in your interview of 2002 on page 6 and you also testified

17     in Zupljanin on page 2898 regarding the same event?

18        A.   Yes.  On 1 June 1992, that's when that happened.

19        Q.   You also said, in the 2002 transcript, on page 7, that your men

20     did not harass the Muslims who were supposed to cross over and to go to

21     Kalesija; is that correct?

22        A.   Yes.  We were there just in order to help them when they were

23     boarding the vehicles.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Your police station also had a department for

25     criminal investigation for severe crimes, murder and similar, and at the

Page 19189

 1     head of that department was Ratko Jovicic; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   They had meetings with the chief and the commander, morning

 4     meetings, but you did not attend those meetings.  However, you know that

 5     there was a distribution of work among the various police departments.

 6     For instance, when a civilian called to report that a body had been found

 7     somewhere, the police would go out there and conduct an investigation,

 8     and Pero Tanic, a police officer, was in charge of sanitisation, and you

 9     speak about this in your 2007 transcript, on pages 47 to 49, and 47 to

10     50, correct?

11        A.   Yes.  Pero Tanic organised a commission which would carry out

12     sanitisation or clearing up of the field.

13        Q.   Could you -- could it be said that Mr. Jovicic or rather that for

14     every case that was reported to the police, an investigating commission

15     would go out and conduct an investigation, an on-site investigation,

16     regardless of who the perpetrator or the victim was?

17        A.   I don't know exactly whether they went out in every single case,

18     but I know that frequently both the criminal department and the

19     State Security Service would go out, and sometimes a pathologist would

20     accompany them.

21        Q.   Is it correct that most of these reports reached the station to

22     the effect that there was a body found somewhere and that very

23     infrequently there would be an eyewitness, which would mean that either

24     they were afraid to report or there weren't any eyewitnesses?

25        A.   Yes.  In the beginning, most of this information or reports were

Page 19190

 1     received over the phone, and the people would never even mention their

 2     names.  They wouldn't identify themselves.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You then go on to say, in the 2007 transcript, on

 4     pages 54-55, that Vasilic told you that it was necessary to go to Pale or

 5     Bijeljina to tell them something about that, and that this should be done

 6     more frequently in order to prevent the robberies, the shooting, and that

 7     to do that it was necessary to go to Pale or Bijeljina?

 8        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 9        Q.   So how long did this go on for, this situation, that you had to

10     actually go there in order to be able to report because there was no

11     other way to do it?

12        A.   I'm not sure, but I believe that went on till late June or early

13     July 1992.

14        Q.   No.  Late July, early August, that's what the witness said;

15     correct?  And does that actually correspond to the time when the

16     paramilitaries were arrested?  Does that coincide with those events?

17        A.   Yes.  Zuca's unit and the others were arrested, I believe, on the

18     28th, going on 29 July 1992.

19        Q.   Thank you.  So your answer to my earlier question was the

20     situation went on like that until late July and early August, that we had

21     to go there and report on the events orally; is that correct?  That it

22     was difficult to get to Pale or even to Bijeljina and that people did not

23     dare submit written reports.  So did you say till the end of July and

24     early August rather than till the end of June, early July?

25        A.   I said, I believe, up until the end of July or early August.

Page 19191

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Prior to the arrest, there was a written report by a

 2     policeman called Dragan Andan who was not from Zvornik but rather from

 3     Bijeljina.  Do you consider that that is why it was easier for him to

 4     submit written reports, whereas no one in Zvornik dared do that?

 5        A.   Dragan Andan, as far as I know, was an inspector at the

 6     Ministry of the Interior, and he would conduct inspections of public

 7     security stations, he would tour the stations and conduct inspections

 8     there, and I believe that that's when he submitted these reports.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You also said in Zupljanin on page 2908 that after --

10     that Vasilic was replaced by Lokancevic -- my apologies, that's 2874,

11     page 2874 -- that he was replaced by Lokancevic and that then the police

12     expelled and drove out Gogic's men across the Drina.  You said this on

13     page 2908.  Was that correct?

14        A.   Yes.  Except that the police expelled the Gogic men on the 27,

15     28 July, and a day or two later, Zuca's men were arrested and that's when

16     Marinko was replaced.

17        Q.   Thank you.  So in Bijeljina, as you learned, there had been plans

18     for this arrest and the Zvornik police was told to be careful and not let

19     Zuca escape, and you testified about this in Zupljanin on page 2926; is

20     that correct?

21        A.   Yes, that's correct.

22        Q.   Thank you.  The Special Police under the command of Karisik, and

23     together with Mico Davidovic, planned this operation, they had arm-bands

24     as a sign or mark to recognise each other, and they went to Zuca's house

25     and arrested him there; is that correct?

Page 19192

 1        A.   That's correct.

 2        Q.   There were also clashes with other paramilitary units, and from

 3     that time on, they were on a downward curve or, rather, the authorities

 4     reasserted their power there, and you mentioned this on pages 52 to 56 in

 5     the transcript; is that correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I noticed that you remember the day when Gogic's men were

 8     expelled because it was your birthday, right?

 9        A.   Yes.  The 28th of July, that's when I was born.

10        Q.   You said that the reason for their arrest was mentioned on pages

11     54 and 56 of the transcript of 2002.  Also in 2007, in the transcript or

12     rather on page 40, the reason was not only the fact that they mistreated

13     Minister Ostojic but also because they treated the Muslim population

14     badly and violently, because they were out of control; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   After that, Vasilic and Grujic were replaced in that situation,

17     and Lokacevic was appointed and Branislav Mihajlovic was appointed

18     commander of the station, right?  You spoke about that in your statement

19     of 2007 on page 52, and also in the Zupljanin trial, on page 2929, and

20     2930.  So this overall crisis was that arrest of paramilitaries something

21     that resulted in a change in the people who were in government and also

22     at the police station?

23        A.   Yes.  But Mico Lokancevic is the name, not Lokacevic.  So it's

24     spelled Lokancevic.

25        Q.   All the rest is correct, right?

Page 19193

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Can it be said, then, that it's not that they had made any active

 3     mistakes, quite simply they were incapable of dealing with the situation

 4     regarding these paramilitaries, and after this clearing up, the new

 5     people in power were supposed to have a free hand in ensuring law and

 6     order.  Would you agree with that?

 7        A.   Yes.  As a matter of fact, they resigned themselves.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now have a look at 1D3944?  I'm going to

 9     show you a series of documents now that were passed by the authorities

10     from the moment when the conflict broke out on 4 April, the documents

11     that were adopted by the civilian authorities in their effort to ensure

12     the rule of law.  1D3944 is the document I'm looking for.  This is not

13     it.  Yes.  Now we have the right document.

14             MS. ELLIOTT:  Pardon me, this English translation is not the same

15     as the B/C/S document, but there a correct English translation available.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very kind of you, Ms. Elliott.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] The Defence is also grateful.

18             JUDGE KWON:  If you could print it out, shall we put it on the

19     ELMO?

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In order to make things easier for the translation service, we

22     wanted to have at least something translated so that we would not be too

23     late.  I would like to ask you to go on looking at this Serbian version,

24     Mr. Panic.  Do we agree that on 21 April 1992, the provisional government

25     of the Serb Municipality of Zvornik passed an order on determining

Page 19194

 1     burying sites and funeral ceremonies for individuals killed in war in the

 2     town of Zvornik and the surrounding area?  It says in the Kazambasca?

 3        A.   Kazambasca.

 4        Q.   Graveyard near Zvornik, actually can you read all of that?

 5        A.   Could you please zoom in a bit?  Because --

 6        Q.   Could we please zoom in and could you please read paragraph 1?

 7        A.   Number 1:  "The Kazambasca* graveyard near Zvornik.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we have an English translation on the

 9     ELMO.  You can put your question, Mr. Karadzic.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11        Q.   Do you agree that what is regulated here is the following, that

12     Muslims and Serbs should be buried in a dignified manner at their

13     cemeteries and with appropriate religious rites except for those who are

14     taken by their families, but if the municipality is handling this, the

15     municipality is going to do it in a dignified manner?  Would you agree?

16        A.   According to this order, yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted as Defence Exhibit.

20             MS. ELLIOTT:  Mr. President, just one observation, I have no

21     problem with the admission of this document.  However the only thing that

22     the witness confirmed is that the document says what it says.  And I'm

23     having some difficulties in reconciling Mr. Karadzic offering documents

24     for admission on that basis today with Mr. Robinson's objections

25     yesterday and consistent application of the guidelines.

Page 19195

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to respond, Mr. Robinson?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Our position continues to be

 3     that the witness -- a document should be admitted if the witness can

 4     confirm something about its contents.  So perhaps Mr. Karadzic can ask

 5     additional questions if the Chamber is not satisfied with this.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] If necessary, I can ask the

 8     witness whether that is the way things were done based on his own

 9     experience, if the family would not --

10             JUDGE KWON:  On the basis that the witness agreed to the content

11     of the document, this document can be admitted.

12             Mr. Karadzic could have spent more time exploring the witness's

13     knowledge about this but in terms of time, the Chamber is of the view to

14     admit this document at the moment.  This is admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1697, Your Honours.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D3495 -- 1D3945 actually.

17        Q.   Please take a look at this.  It is identical, I hope that there

18     is a translation.  Yes.  Here comes the translation.  Do you remember

19     that on 12 May, the provisional government of Zvornik passed an order on

20     prohibiting the serving of alcoholic beverages?  And do you agree that

21     that was -- no, no, no, not this document.  We need a different document

22     in Serbian.  Actually, it's the same number but the second half.  Thank

23     you.  That's it.

24             So on 12 May, the serving of alcoholic beverages was prohibited.

25     As a policeman, did you know that, and was that done with a view to

Page 19196

 1     decreasing dangers for citizens?

 2        A.   Yes.  I knew about that, and the order was being carried out by

 3     the police station as well.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1698, Your Honours.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D3946.  Can we have that now,

 9     please?  Can we have the right-hand side where the ERN number is?  Can we

10     have that in an enlarged version?  Yes.  Thank you.

11        Q.   So that had to do with taverns.  Do you agree that this order

12     dated 1 June 1992 is related to the selling of alcoholic beverages in

13     shops?  And that there is a threat in Article 3, namely failure to carry

14     out this order shall be punished by closing the shop?  So in addition to

15     not serving alcoholic beverages in taverns, alcoholic beverages were

16     still a problem and that's why the government passed this decision not

17     allow the selling of alcoholic beverages in shops either, would you

18     agree?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

22             JUDGE KWON:  We admitted it, didn't we?

23                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  It will be given a separate number.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1699, Your Honours.

Page 19197

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now we are going to

 2     have 1700.  3949.  Could we have that number, please?  And that is going

 3     to be Defence Exhibit 1700.  1D3949.

 4        Q.   Do you remember that at some point in time, in the beginning of

 5     July, a new order was issued on prohibiting the bringing of weapons into

 6     the town of Zvornik, and that pertained both to uniformed and

 7     non-uniformed persons?  So could the Serbian version please be enlarged

 8     for the witness?  The right-hand part of that page.  No, not the left

 9     one, the right one.  Yes, thank you.

10             Do you agree that this measure was introduced because there was

11     lots of weaponry all over, in the hands of the paramilitaries and in the

12     hands of other persons, and therefore they did not allow the carrying of

13     weapons and the public security and the military police of Zvornik were

14     in charge of seizing such weapons, just like in the Wild West, right?

15        A.   Yes.  As a matter of fact, we had a few problems with military

16     personnel who did not want to hand over weapons to the police, and then

17     we would inform the military police about that and then they would come

18     and take their weapons from them.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, indeed, Exhibit D1700.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D3948, can we have that, please?

23        Q.   A moment ago you mentioned that Zuca had intended to take over

24     the municipality building along with the administration; right?  And that

25     that was a real danger; right?

Page 19198

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Yes, yes, exactly, that's what I wanted to have

 3     enlarged.

 4             Do you agree that that is probably the reason why, on 2 July, the

 5     provisional government did not allow weapons to be brought into the

 6     Municipal Assembly building, right?  Do you remember this order?  And do

 7     you link it up with these intentions of the paramilitaries to take the

 8     Municipal Assembly, the building of the Municipal Assembly, that is?

 9        A.   Yes.  I remember that, and I think that that is why the order was

10     issued.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1701, Your Honours.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D3951?

16        Q.   At one point in time, the president of the Executive Board was

17     Radosav Peric, the deputy head of the provisional government.  Actually,

18     it was no longer the provisional government.  It was the Executive Board

19     by then; right?

20        A.   That's right.

21        Q.   Let's look at this order again.  It is repeated and it's spelled

22     out in more specific terms.  It is dated 24 September, yet again there is

23     this ban on bringing weapons into the town of Zvornik, and that that

24     pertains to persons in uniform and persons not wearing uniform and

25     Article 2 says that the only exceptions are authorised officials of the

Page 19199

 1     MUP, the military police, and soldiers if they are moving through town in

 2     an organised manner and under command.  And your station and the military

 3     police were entrusted with the implementation of this order.  Do you

 4     remember this order?

 5        A.   Yes, and we enforced it.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Exhibit D1702.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 25564.  2564.  02564.

 9     Could we now zoom in on this page, with the ERN number, the one on the

10     right-hand side?

11        Q.   Do you agree that this is 29 June, a conclusion of the

12     provisional municipal government, that uniforms may be issued only to --

13     only by authorisation from the commander of the Zvornik Brigade and do

14     you agree that this is an attempt to prevent unauthorised wearing of

15     uniforms around the municipality?  Do you recall this order, this

16     conclusion?

17        A.   Yes.  I remember all sorts of people were wearing all sorts of

18     uniforms.  Everyone brought them from their own native place, from their

19     units.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1703, Your Honours.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D3952, please.  Could we display

24     this page a bit larger, with the ERN number?

25        Q.   Do you recall that on 12 November, Radoslav Peric as president of

Page 19200

 1     the Executive Board wrote a recommendation to the police to review the

 2     active duty and the reserve police personnel, the second paragraph says

 3     that all employees of the police who are inclined to engage in

 4     inappropriate conduct, all those who joined paramilitary units and who

 5     left the Serbian army to join other units in other places, should be

 6     expelled?  Do you recall this recommendation?

 7        A.   Yes.  I remember it.  A large number of members of the police

 8     were sent to serve in the army at the time.

 9        Q.   They did not like it very much.  They were not fit for the

10     police, and they could do less damage in the army; right?

11        A.   Yes.  And they were closer to combat in the army.  Most of them

12     had done only police work until then.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Could we say that this process of purging the police

14     continued, it was not uncommon at that time to be expelled from the

15     police?  In other words, you did not tolerate on your force people who

16     were not fit for police work?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see -- can this document be admitted?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1704, Your Honours.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D3957.  We are now

22     moving to the subject of property protection and property issues, on

23     which various decisions and orders were made.  Could we display to the

24     witness the left side, without the ERN number?

25        Q.   You see this order.  Boards of management may dispose of socially

Page 19201

 1     owned apartments in their own property, and occupancy rights may not be

 2     modified, and abandoned apartments can only be decided upon by the

 3     provisional government.  This was designed to prevent any handling of

 4     property in illegal ways, to prevent abuse and squatting and

 5     inappropriate use of business and residential premises.

 6        A.   Yes.  Early on, there was a lot of unauthorised eviction, but

 7     after this order, a panel was established to allocate abandoned

 8     apartments to displaced persons from the federation.

 9        Q.   On a temporary basis; right?  Such apartments were returned, were

10     restored to the rightful owner, after the war?

11        A.   Yes.  In Zvornik, I believe 100 per cent of all property was

12     returned to the owners.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1705, Your Honours.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now see 1D3963?

18     Can we concentrate on the left page?

19        Q.   9 September.  The president of the Executive Board, Mr. Peric,

20     renders null and void all contracts on the lease of business premises

21     concluded after 6 April 1992, between physical persons and the

22     Serbian Municipality of Zvornik.  This -- all this fishing in muddy

23     waters that went on before this decision is what the president of the

24     Executive Board tried to stop?

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 19202

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1706, Your Honours.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D3950 is the document I would

 5     like to call up next.  Page 2, or, rather, the side with the ERN number.

 6        Q.   Do you agree that in this document, on 17 July, the provisional

 7     government banned the resettlement of Serbs who had fled from Kladanj,

 8     Kalesija and Zivinice in the town of Zvornik, and this does not apply to

 9     the families of fallen fighters.  Article 3 says that these refugees are

10     not allowed to become permanent residents but instead they have to

11     register with the secretariat for the admission of refugees.  Do you

12     recall this?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1707, Your Honours.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D3960, please.

19             MS. ELLIOTT:  We can call up the document, Your Honour, but

20     I think this may be a duplicate of 1D3948 that we've already dealt with

21     and has been admitted.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll see.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown the

24     right-hand side with the ERN number?

25        Q.   You mentioned yourself that there was a lot of malfeasance with

Page 19203

 1     the real estate, immovable property, et cetera.  Do you recall that on 17

 2     July, the temporary -- the provisional government issued an order

 3     ordering the secretariat for the admission of refugees, and the public

 4     security station, to form a commission to supervise the occupancy and use

 5     of family housing facilities, to inspect all occupied apartments, and to

 6     immediately evict any unauthorised occupants?  You remember this?  There

 7     was a lot of squatting at the time?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.  And we also discussed the establishment of this

 9     commission earlier.

10        Q.   Thank you?

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So this was not a duplicate of what we admitted?

13             MS. ELLIOTT:  I believe it is, Your Honour.  It's just that with

14     1D3948 Mr. Karadzic focused on the left side and on this one he is

15     focused on the right side.

16             JUDGE KWON:  This is the right side of that document.

17             MS. ELLIOTT:  Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Which seems to be a separate document and the

19     English translation is uploaded on a separate --

20             MS. ELLIOTT:  Okay, for that reason, then.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit that.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1708, Your Honours.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D3955, please.  Could we focus on

24     the left side in the box?

25        Q.   Is this the commission that was referred to?  "A commission is

Page 19204

 1     hereby formed to inspect the use of socially owned flats."

 2             Do you know these people listed here?

 3        A.   Yes.  That's one of the commissions.  The composition later

 4     changed.  I know Rade Vukic, I know Tomo Jasic, Aleksandar Kusic,

 5     Slobodan Krstanovic.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  And when people illegally moved into an apartment,

 7     your Public Security Service would come and assist where necessary?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you, can this be admitted?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1709, Your Honours.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 1D3958, please.

13        Q.   This is a separate document referring to property issues and how

14     they were governed.  This is a decision - isn't it? - made on 22 June,

15     outlining criteria for provisional accommodation in abandoned apartments

16     and family houses, and Article 2 says, temporary occupancy, it stipulates

17     exactly who is entitled to occupy these residences temporarily, and do

18     you recall this?  Do you remember that this was specifically defined as

19     temporary occupancy of abandoned apartments and family houses?

20        A.   Yes.  I remember that.  I think that even some old-timers got

21     these apartments to use for a while, those whose own homes had been

22     destroyed in war operations.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1710, Your Honours.

Page 19205

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, do I have any

 2     more time?  We have one more topic to cover.  The efforts to restore the

 3     rule of law, to make the municipality operate as a state within the

 4     state, considering that it was cut off from central authorities.  And we

 5     can corroborate this with documents.  Mr. Panic is very well-versed in

 6     state administration.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  You have about half an hour after the break.

 8             We'll have a break now for an hour and resume at 1.30.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.30 p.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now please have

13     1D3661 in e-court?

14        Q.   I would like to show you some documents that you were aware of

15     because of your post, where we have instances where the municipality

16     acted as a state within a state, and this was confirmed here.  Now, would

17     you agree with me if I said that within our old system the municipality

18     was rather independent and autonomous in view of its functions, national

19     defence and many others?  Do you recall that there was a lot of autonomy

20     within municipalities?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Please take a look now at one of the decisions dated 22 April, in

23     other words after the first conflict broke out.  The provisional

24     government is issuing a decision on forming a single organisation for the

25     provision of health care services, and unifying the general hospital,

Page 19206

 1     health centre and pharmacy, and transforming them into a single

 2     organisation in Zvornik.  Now, would you agree with me that there is then

 3     a list of the names of the persons who were part of the management board,

 4     including Jelkic Muhamed, who was a surgeon I believe, an internist, a

 5     Muslim by ethnicity?

 6        A.   Yes, Muhamed Jelkic.

 7             Was -- had a specialisation in internal medicine and he stayed in

 8     Zvornik for perhaps a month or two longer.

 9        Q.   He was not an extremist and he was welcome in his various posts

10     and functions, he was also appointed as a member of the Crisis Staff,

11     which was Serbian and Muslim, do you recall that?

12        A.   Yes, he was an expert in his field.  He was a very good doctor

13     and he had that reputation both among the Serbs and the Muslims.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to tender

15     this, please.

16        Q.   But would you agree with me that this would be a function of

17     ministries, not municipalities, in other words reorganising and

18     transforming the structures of health care institutions?

19        A.   Yes.  In the early days of the conflict, perhaps because of the

20     breakdown of communications, municipalities took it upon themselves to

21     take decisions on various aspects of activity which sometimes were not

22     within their authority.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 19207

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1711, Your Honours.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now have

 3     1D3969, please?

 4        Q.   Would you agree with me that those municipalities that were cut

 5     off had a sense that they were left to their own devices?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Would you please take a look here at a decision whereby judges in

 8     the lower court are relieved of their duties and if you look at the list,

 9     I was able to count six Serbs and five Muslims on the list, if Tiric is a

10     Muslim; the fifth name is Serb; 8th is Serb; 9 is a Serb, Petar Ristic;

11     10 Vaso, a Serb; 11, Milenko, a Serb; and 13, Dragan, a Serb.

12        A.   Yes.  Zlatko Tiric was a Muslim.

13        Q.   In other words, seven Serbs and six Muslims.  Now, would you

14     agree with me that many people left and were relieved of their duties

15     because they were no longer there.  We can't really see what the reason

16     for it -- this is.  For their being relieved of duty here.

17        A.   Yes.  And -- yes, people of both ethnicities were leaving.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this document.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1712, Your Honours.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D3974, please?

23        Q.   Very well.  Can you see that this is a decision to appoint the

24     secretary of the holding centre for refugees issued on 4 June?  This

25     would be something that would fall within the purview of the

Page 19208

 1     municipality?

 2        A.   I'm not sure I can answer that question but I do know that this

 3     person, Cedo Kojic was appointed to that post.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Can we see the second half of this document in

 5     Serbian, where we see that judges are appointed to lower courts, to the

 6     municipal court in Zvornik.  We see that this is an appointment of

 7     Radovan Nikolic as a judge of the municipal court.  Can we agree that

 8     appointments of judicial positions -- to judicial positions was something

 9     that was within the purview of the government?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Could we -- I'd like to tender

13     this, please.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1713, Your Honours.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now see 1D3975,

17     please?

18        Q.   Would you agree with me that here we see that on 22 June,

19     approval is given for -- my apologies.  This is not so relevant.  Could

20     we have the next page, please?  These are financial documents, so we are

21     not really interested in that but can you see here that we have the

22     approval of the appointment of the chief of the Defence Ministry

23     department in the municipality, and it was proposed and approved that

24     Stevan Ivanovic should be appointed to that duty.  Do you recall that?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19209

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   And just to add, this too is the function of the Ministry of

 6     Defence, it's within the purview of the Ministry of Defence, isn't it?

 7        A.   Well, that's how it should be, yes.

 8        Q.   Well, it would appear that his appointment was extended, that he

 9     had been appointed on 15 March and here approval is given for extending

10     his post or rather his appointment to that post; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I'd like to tender this, please.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D1714.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we now see 1D3976,

15     please?  Can we see the left-hand side, the one that doesn't bear the ERN

16     number?  Could you just zoom in on that for the witness?

17        Q.   Would you agree with me that here the municipality is even

18     appointing the military prosecutor, and that this is something that could

19     not be the case under normal circumstances?  This is not something for

20     the municipality to do; correct?

21        A.   Yes.  The municipality could -- would not be able to do that,

22     especially not appoint a military prosecutor.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 19210

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1715, Your Honours.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Would you agree that up until 8 July, this provisional government

 4     is in existence?  We see that the person signing for it is Branko Grujic,

 5     correct?  And then if we look at the next document, 1D3977, we can see

 6     that it's already Mr. Pejic.  Could we have 1D3977?  Can we zoom in on

 7     the left-hand side of the B/C/S version, the one without the ERN number?

 8     Now, please look at this.  Would you agree that this decision is a

 9     decision where the new prime minister decides to reinstate the functions

10     of the normal municipal government, and it says here that those organs

11     that had been elected before the coming into effect of the declaration on

12     the state of war will remain in force, and that up until the chairman of

13     the Executive Committee is elected, Radosav Peric would be at the head of

14     the interim government and this too coincides with the time when the

15     paramilitaries were arrested; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.  On 20 July already, Branko Grujic had resigned and been

17     replaced.

18        Q.   And Mr. Peric here assessed that there are no longer reasons for

19     the provisional work of the government and that the regular government

20     bodies should be reinstated that had not functioned up until then; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   Yes.  But I see on top that it says that on 20 July, Grujic was

23     appointed -- was relieved of duties but in fact it should be 28 July.

24        Q.   In the preamble it says, at a session held on 28 July 1992,

25     perhaps it's not visible enough, and at the bottom, too, we see the date

Page 19211

 1     of 28 July 1992.  So that's exactly on the same day when the arrest

 2     occurred; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.  Gogic's group was expelled on the night of 27/28 July,

 4     whereas the special unit expelled the Zuca's men on the 29th.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1716, Your Honours.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now see

10     1D3978, please?

11        Q.   Could you agree with me that as of that day, 28 July, law and

12     order is being reinstated in the municipality of Zvornik?

13        A.   Yes.  After the arrest of these paramilitary forces, there was a

14     change in the leadership of the municipality as well as the SUP.  So that

15     the rule of law was reinstated.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, on 19 August we can see here there is a decision

17     to establish a municipal prison for the municipalities of Bratunac,

18     Zvornik and Skelani, and the seat should be in Zvornik.  Was this a

19     prison that was meant for criminal acts, for criminals, criminal

20     perpetrators of criminal acts, not for prisoners of war?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Was this implemented, this decision?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this, please.

Page 19212

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1717, Your Honours.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4        Q.   This too would be within the purview of the Ministry of Justice,

 5     but the communications with the central government were still not fully

 6     in place; correct?

 7        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now see 1D3979?  This decision is on the

 9     appointment of a commission for prisoner exchanges.  Did you know that

10     there was such a commission established, that these people were its

11     members, and that Slavoljub Tomasevic was its president and one of the

12     members was a doctor, the name under number 7, correct?

13        A.   Yes.  I didn't have an opportunity to see this decision earlier,

14     but I know that I know both Dr. -- Mr. Tomasevic and Dr. Umicevic.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that the Muslim side frequently

16     reneged on the agreement to exchange prisoners and also the exchanges of

17     civilians and soldiers who had been killed?

18        A.   Yes.  Very often there were delays.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that Captain Dragan intended to get a

20     killed policeman out, or someone else, a policeman I think from Kamenica.

21     Do you remember that, often, in Kamenica and in other places where there

22     were Muslim concentrations, killed fighters were massacred, mutilated,

23     and that this horrified the population, they impaled them, they cut off

24     their heads, and circumcised them, as is done in some religions?

25        A.   Yes.  I know that the late Slavko Eric, when he was taken out,

Page 19213

 1     certain parts of his body had been torn off and burned, I don't know

 2     about the rest.  I heard about that.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Elliott?

 6             MS. ELLIOTT:  Your Honour I don't have, again, a problem with

 7     admitting the document but all the witness did was confirm that he knew

 8     two of the people listed.  He didn't comment on the -- this commission or

 9     this document in any other way.

10             JUDGE KWON:  He didn't ask about the content of this document.

11     Would you like to ask further questions, Mr. Karadzic?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Oh, I'd just like to ask or rather

13     I did ask that he asked whether a commission existed and he said that he

14     did know and that he knew two men and he knew the commission had a

15     problem with carrying out the agreed exchanges.

16        Q.   Is my understanding correct, Mr. Peric -- or rather, Mr. Panic,

17     Peric is the signatory?

18        A.   Yes.  I haven't seen the document but I heard of this commission,

19     and I know not only two people but I also know the late Cvijan Rakic and

20     Tomasevic and Dr. Umicevic and Lazar Pejic.  I knew all of them actually,

21     as far as the commission was concerned.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Elliott?

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE BAIRD:  Ms. Elliott, can you assist us here, please?  The

25     question Dr. Karadzic asked was this:

Page 19214

 1             [As read] "You mentioned that Captain Dragan intended to get a

 2     policeman out or someone else, a policeman I think from Kamenica.  Do you

 3     remember that often in Kamenica and other places where there were Muslim

 4     concentrations, killed fighters were massacred, mutilated, and that this

 5     horrified the population, they impaled them, they cut off their heads and

 6     circumcised them as is done in some religious?"

 7             And he said yes.  Now, would that yes govern the question asked,

 8     would you say?

 9             MS. ELLIOTT:  I would say that the witness then qualified and

10     said what he was assenting to, and that was he knew about the late

11     Slavko Eric and he heard about other things.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Do you think that yes didn't -- had no bearing on

13     the actual question, in that he agreed with the question, that yes?

14             MS. ELLIOTT:  I would not understand that yes to be that he

15     adopted all aspects of Mr. Karadzic's question.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  I see.  Thank you very much indeed.  Mr. Witness,

17     you were asked a question by Dr. Karadzic.  I read it out a while ago but

18     I shall read it again for you.  He asked:

19             "You mentioned that Captain Dragan intended to get a policeman

20     killed -- killed policeman out or someone else, a policeman I think from

21     Kamenica.  Do you remember that, often, in Kamenica, and in other places,

22     where there were Muslim concentrations, killed fighters were massacred,

23     mutilated, and then this horrified the population, they impaled them,

24     they cut off their heads and circumcised them as is done in some

25     religions."

Page 19215

 1             And you said yes.  What did that "yes" mean?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, Captain Dragan did

 3     not go to Kamenica.  People said that he was brought in in order to go to

 4     Kamenica to get the dead bodies of the killed policemen from there

 5     including the late Slavko Eric.  I know Slavko Eric, when he was taken

 6     out his body had been burned, that was established, and I know that at

 7     the hill of Glodjani over 60 Serbs were killed.  Some were found without

 8     certain parts of their body.  Others haven't even been found yet.  As for

 9     myself, seeing this, no, I have not seen this myself.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   The text does not include what the witness said namely that the

12     bodies had been dismembered.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  The question was:

14             [As read] "They were massacred, mutilated, and that this

15     horrified the population and they impaled them, they cut off their heads

16     and circumcised them as is done in some religions."

17             Thank you very much, indeed.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, that's an example of showing the

19     problem of compound questions.  In relation to this document itself, you

20     also asked, I quote line 7, page 62:

21             [As read] "This decision is on the appointment of a commission

22     for prisoner exchange.  Did you know that there was such a commission

23     established?  That these people were its members?  And that

24     Slavko Tomasevic was its president and one of the members was a doctor,

25     the name under 7; correct?"

Page 19216

 1             And if he says yes, we are not sure, yes to what?  So please

 2     refrain from making compound questions.  But on the basis of the answers,

 3     we will admit this document.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1718, Your Honours.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I just have three

 6     documents left and a question.  And then we show the map and then we are

 7     done.  Can we have 1D3970?  Your Excellencies, I accept this criticism.

 8     However, I do my best to finish as much as possible within the time

 9     allocated to me, and that is probably where I err.  Can we enlarge the

10     page where the ERN number is?

11        Q.   Do you agree that this decision speaks about the establishment of

12     a special unit of the Territorial Defence on 18 April while the JNA was

13     still there in a legal manner?  Also, it's a bit too much to have a

14     municipality pass a document like this; isn't that right?

15        A.   Yes, that's right.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1719, Your Honours.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  1D3972, can we have

21     that, please?  The page where the ERN number is, could that please be

22     zoomed in for the witness, in Serbian?  I believe that there is a

23     translation, though.  The witness just needs the right-hand side of the

24     document.  Oh, I am sorry, there is no translation.

25        Q.   Do you agree that here on 25 May this same Mr. Grujic is

Page 19217

 1     postponing the implementation of this decision, that's what he says?

 2     I beg your pardon, no, no.  This actually -- this actually has to do with

 3     physical, legal persons who have accounts in Serbia.  They have to return

 4     their money so that they would be under the control of the tax

 5     authorities.  Do you agree that this conclusion pertains to that?

 6        A.   According to what is written here that is what it says but

 7     I don't really know much about things like this.

 8        Q.   Do you agree that they are trying to regulate the financial

 9     system too, as if they were the state itself, and that this is a result

10     of this isolation of the municipality?

11             JUDGE KWON:  The witness answered that he doesn't really know

12     much about things like this.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have

14     65 ter 15345?  15345 is the 65 ter number.  Could I have that page,

15     please, the one that has an ERN number, can that be zoomed in for the

16     witness?  I believe that there is a translation.  This document was on

17     the Prosecution list.  No.  There is no translation yet.

18        Q.   Do you agree here that on 11 May Mr. Grujic is delaying the

19     implementation of the decision?  Do you agree that this would correspond

20     to the lack of enthusiasm on the part of the JNA to have yet another unit

21     formed in its area of responsibility?  Do you remember that this unit was

22     not established?

23        A.   I did not know of this conclusion.  I had not seen it.  And the

24     unit was not established.  I don't know anything else about this.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 19218

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can it be admitted?  It can be

 2     added to the other one when the decision was made, and then there is this

 3     decision not to have it established.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We will mark it for identification.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1720, Your Honours.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Panic, the Prosecutor asked you whether you knew anything

 8     about Srebrenica, and they asked you about the visit of General Subotic.

 9     Is it correct that you don't know anything about any of these things that

10     happened in relation to Srebrenica?  And is it correct that you do not

11     know that General Subotic asked about graves with a view to destroying

12     evidence?  That is what you stated in the transcript of your interview

13     with the Prosecution, the year is 2002, and the pages are 57 and 58,

14     right?

15        A.   It is right that I don't know anything about Srebrenica.  I was

16     not in Srebrenica at the time.

17        Q.   And in Zvornik, people did not know much about what was happening

18     in Srebrenica?

19        A.   In Zvornik, everything that had anything to do with Srebrenica

20     was taken over by the military.

21        Q.   Thank you.  As for Subotic, you did not hear about him trying to

22     destroy anything or hush things up or anything else?

23        A.   I don't even know this Subotic.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can we now ask for 1D4275?  We'd like to ask you to

25     mark some things for us briefly on the map.

Page 19219

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give the reference for your question about

 2     the Prosecutor asking whether he knew anything about Srebrenica?  Did you

 3     mean in examination-in-chief?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] I think it was in the

 5     examination-in-chief or in the transcript.  And here we have this --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Your interview, yes, now I have understood.

 7             MS. ELLIOTT:  Sorry, Your Honour, could we have a reference for

 8     that interview?  I haven't been able to find what Mr. Karadzic is

 9     referring to.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] 65 ter 22580, interview dated

11     17 October 2002, pages 57 and 58.

12             MS. ELLIOTT:  Sorry, I'm not able to see any reference to

13     Srebrenica on pages 57 or 58.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The last question seems to be the -- whether he can

15     tell about visit of Bogdan Subotic, then minister for defence, to Zvornik

16     for the purpose of arranging the reburial of the killed people.  Can you

17     move to the next page?  Were you referring to this passage?

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  Yes, yes, but I thought

19     that the OTP was linking that to Srebrenica.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Your last question, about map?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Can we have the map in e-court?

22     The OTP was kind enough to have it uploaded.  It was hard for us because

23     the format was rather big.  Although they have been kind we do have to

24     note that there is no equality of arms.  They can do what we cannot.

25     1D4275.  We will be using it often, so once we have admitted it then we

Page 19220

 1     will be able to call it up often.  It's coming.  Thank you.  Could you

 2     please zoom in on Zvornik?  That is on the right-hand side, the upper

 3     third of the map, a bit to the north.  Right there.  For all the

 4     participants, this is a map of the geography institute.  This is the

 5     ethnic distribution, the borders of municipalities and then the smaller

 6     ones are the borders of villages and hamlets.  And the census is 1981,

 7     the one that is not controversial because it was passed in the assembly.

 8     Can we just enlarge the municipality of Zvornik?  Can we actually just

 9     have the municipality of Zvornik on our screens?  It's on the very edge

10     there, the second one from the top on the right-hand side.  Precisely.

11     Thank you.

12        Q.   Can I ask you -- actually, can we please keep it in the centre?

13     Yes, it can be this way as well.  Well, tell us, this blue area down

14     there, is that Drinjaca that was cut off from Zvornik?  Where Pivarski

15     stayed without you being able to have any insight into what was going on?

16        A.   Most probably.  Most probably, but I'm not sure.  I'm not good

17     with maps.

18        Q.   And do you agree with that within between this blue area and

19     Zvornik, there lie Kamenica, Cerska and Glodjansko Hill areas that

20     Muslims continued to control until the spring 1993?

21        A.   Yes.  Everything that is marked green was populated by Muslims,

22     and the blue areas were Serb.

23        Q.   Was this how the municipalities were supposed to look like, the

24     blue to be Serb municipalities, and the green to be Muslim

25     municipalities?

Page 19221

 1        A.   I don't know what the politicians agreed, but that's how it is,

 2     according to the map.

 3        Q.   Just one more thing, do you agree that those green fields to the

 4     north-east of the town itself were controlled throughout the war by the

 5     Muslim army, Sapna and the other areas, and to this day they remain in

 6     the BH federation?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Since we did not mark anything, we will do it another

 9     time.  I will not tender this now but I just wanted the participants to

10     have some idea of who lived where.  An image.

11             Thank you, witness.  I'm sorry I kept you this long but you have

12     helped us shed light on certain things.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Elliott?

14             MS. ELLIOTT:  Yes, may I please call up 65 ter 13685?

15                           Re-examination by Ms. Elliott:

16        Q.   Sir, if you could just review this document and I'm, in

17     particular, drawing your attention to the reference to the decree of

18     state president Radovan Karadzic where according to this document, you

19     had been awarded a medal for services to the people.  What were you

20     awarded this medal for?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I'm wondering how this

22     arises from the cross-examination.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Elliott?

24             MS. ELLIOTT:  Your Honour, at line -- page 68 of today's

25     transcript, Mr. Karadzic asked, first of all, a question in relation to

Page 19222

 1     what this witness knew about Srebrenica and the witness said he didn't

 2     know anything about Srebrenica, and that in Zvornik everything that had

 3     anything to do with Srebrenica was taken over by the military.  And I

 4     have a few documents to show the witness in relation to these questions

 5     and answers.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed, Ms. Elliott.

 8             MS. ELLIOTT:

 9        Q.   So my question for the witness was:  What were the circumstances

10     or why was he awarded this medal for services to the people?

11        A.   I've never seen the reasoning of that decision, but the proposal

12     was made by the ministry and the ministry made it to the president,

13     probably.  In any case, I was awarded that medal for, among other things,

14     expelling the paramilitaries.

15        Q.   So it's your evidence that in September of 1995, you were awarded

16     a medal in relation to events from 1992?  Is that just clear?

17        A.   No.  I think I got this decoration in 1993, not 1995.  I'm not

18     sure but I think it was 1993.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MS. ELLIOTT:  May that document be admitted, please?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Panic, the document says 1995.  Could you take a

22     look at it again?  Why don't we zoom in, collapse the English.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's possible, but on the

24     certificate I got, there is no date, so it could well be 1995.  And there

25     is one man whose name was stated as Petko Panic, son of Radovan.  So his

Page 19223

 1     decoration was never even recognised.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  This will be admitted.  Yes,

 3     Mr. Robinson?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President I'm wondering what's the

 5     relevance of this document now that you've found that it emanates from

 6     cross-examination about Srebrenica events, I don't see how it's relevant.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Relevant to?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Relevant to anything other than the potential

 9     credibility of the witness and I don't see that the Prosecutor is trying

10     to impeach the credibility of the witness or say that he's biased in

11     favour of Dr. Karadzic because he gave him this award.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Elliott, would you like to respond?

14             MS. ELLIOTT:  Well, I think that the witness has given basis to

15     admit the document and I think it does have some relevance to these

16     proceedings in light of the timing of the award.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  But excuse me, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  If you could be a bit more specific in relation to

19     your reference to these -- relevance to these proceedings.

20             MS. ELLIOTT:  I believe this Trial Chamber will hear quite some

21     evidence about the activities of Dragomir Vasic and Mane Djuric during

22     Srebrenica component of the case and that this document will have some

23     bearing on that.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  That's what I thought, Mr. President.  I think

25     that this is really being used as a subterfuge for other things which

Page 19224

 1     were not covered in the direct examination.  The events of Srebrenica,

 2     where Dr. Karadzic made reference to it, the Prosecutor objected and

 3     asked for a reference.  It turned out what he was referring to didn't

 4     relate to Srebrenica.  And there was no evidence elicited on

 5     cross-examination about 1995 events.  Now, what the Prosecution is trying

 6     to do is smuggle in documents that deal with those events through a

 7     witness who was not examined on that.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't hear --

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] May I just explain something

11     further?  This document has not been interpreted correctly.  Herein,

12     Mr. Vasic requests fast-track promotion for these people, and one of the

13     arguments he forwards is that they have been decorated at some point

14     already, and the witness is probably right in saying that he got his

15     award in 1993 because it is said here that they have been decorated but

16     not in September 1995.  He's just mentioning this decoration in support

17     of their fast-track promotion; is that correct, witness?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see towards the bottom only now

19     it reads, in view of the above, we propose that the above-mentioned

20     employees be exceptionally promoted to the rank, et cetera, et cetera.

21     That's when I got the rank of Captain First Class, but the original

22     decoration, I believe, was in 1993.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] And you also said, witness, that

24     the proposal goes from the chief to the ministry and the ministry submits

25     it to the president.  Do you agree that the president does not know these

Page 19225

 1     people?  He acts based on proposals made from lower levels?  Did you and

 2     I know each other?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We didn't.  I just --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, this is not an opportunity for you to

 5     put additional questions.  Just a question for Mr. Robinson.  Then do we

 6     have basis to admit this document in relation to this witness?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  You have a basis but no relevance.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit this document later on.  Not this

10     time, Ms. Elliott.  Through another witness.

11             MS. ELLIOTT:

12        Q.   Mr. Panic, Dr. Karadzic asked you at page 68 about events in

13     Srebrenica, and in particular he said, "And in Zvornik people did not

14     know much about what was happening in Srebrenica."

15             And your answer was:  "In Zvornik, everything that had anything

16     to do with Srebrenica was taken over by the military."

17             It's an adjudicated fact in this case that thousands of Bosnian

18     Muslim men from the Srebrenica enclave were executed and buried in

19     different locations in Srebrenica, Bratunac and Zvornik municipalities.

20     You were chief of the Zvornik police station in July 1995.  What do you

21     know about the execution of thousands of Bosnian Muslim men from

22     Srebrenica in the Zvornik municipality in July 1995?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I don't believe this arises from

25     the direct examination and if it does -- from the cross-examination, if

Page 19226

 1     it does, it's going to open up a lot of potential recross-examination, so

 2     this is such -- such a broad question as this, what do you know?  If the

 3     Prosecution wanted to call him for Srebrenica events they should have

 4     called him for that in their direct examination, not to take some grain

 5     and blow it up into a tornado.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But is it not true that the witness said that

 7     everything was taken up by military and then Prosecution is entitled to

 8     explore what the witness personally knew?  And then, if necessary, the

 9     Defence may have some further cross-examination on that point, if --

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well, if you believe that that is appropriate

11     from that general answer.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I will consult my colleagues.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Elliott, we will allow you to ask the question.

15             MS. ELLIOTT:  Thank you.

16        Q.   Witness, do you remember the question that I asked of you or

17     would you like me to repeat it?

18        A.   No need to repeat.  Perhaps I misspoke when I said I knew nothing

19     about Srebrenica.  What I meant is I was not in Srebrenica, but there was

20     the 1st Company from our police station in Srebrenica, including the

21     chief, Dragoja Vasic.  What I really meant was that what happened in

22     Zvornik, the prisoners were brought to the school in Rocevici and another

23     location, and that was handled by the military.

24        Q.   If I could call up 65 ter 23195, please.  Sir, do you know who is

25     Mile Renovica?

Page 19227

 1        A.   Yes, he worked in the State Security Service in Zvornik.

 2        Q.   And I believe you've already clarified your answer in

 3     cross-examination about police involvement in Srebrenica, but is this

 4     document consistent with your understanding of MUP involvement in the

 5     liberation of Srebrenica?

 6        A.   This document lists only employees of the State Security Service.

 7     They were higher up than me in hierarchy, and a totally different

 8     organisational unit.  I had no access to that kind of information.  That

 9     was state security.

10        Q.   Were you -- that's fine.  I'll leave that, Your Honour.  That

11     concludes my re-examination.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Elliott.  Do you have any question in

13     relation to the questions and answers put in relation to Srebrenica?

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Nothing in particular.  I could

15     just repeat the question:  Did we know each other?  Was that decoration

16     granted based on our personal relationship or was it the usual procedure?

17             JUDGE KWON:  That has been answered already.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] But the answer was not recorded.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll not allow you to put that question.  It's

20     not necessary.  I'll check the transcript.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  You did admit the document, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  No.  He answered -- his answer was recorded, line 21

23     on page 74.  I beg your pardon, Mr. Robinson?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm sorry, I thought that you had admitted the

25     document but perhaps you didn't actually.

Page 19228

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Panic.  On behalf

 2     of the -- this Chamber and the Tribunal, I'd like to thank you for your

 3     coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you're free to go.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] The Defence also thanks you.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Is the next witness a protected one?

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We need to adjourn for -- no?  There is one matter

10     before we bring in the next witness.  Mr. Tieger, with regard to the

11     witness who is scheduled to appear the last for this week, who is a

12     public witness, I think it's safe to name his name, it's Nusret Sivac.

13     It is my information that the Prosecution intends to tender only 38 pages

14     of the witness's prior testimony from the Stakic case, whereas his whole

15     transcript is 427 pages long.  Are you aware of this situation and, in

16     the position to explain why?  Yes, Ms. Sutherland?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'll deal with that.  It's not my

18     witness but it must be a mistake in the Rule 92 ter notification.

19     Because we would be submitting the entirety of his Stakic transcript.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Robinson?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I would like to just raise a

22     couple of matters, one with respect to this past witness and one related

23     to the next witness, and then after that perhaps in private session with

24     respect to the protective measures for the next witness.

25             But, first of all, just with respect to the time for

Page 19229

 1     cross-examination, again, with respect to this last witness, I want to

 2     thank Judge Baird for his intervention because I think that is like an

 3     ah-hah moment when you see how compound questions can lead to things that

 4     don't clarify the proceedings at all, and I know that I myself have asked

 5     compound questions from time to time, and it's almost always when I'm in

 6     a rush.  And I think Dr. Karadzic also tends to ask those kinds of

 7     questions near the end of his allotted time, and so while he bears the

 8     responsibility and the fault for asking compound questions, I'd like to

 9     call the Chamber's attention to ask you to consider giving him the same

10     amount of time in his examination, direct -- cross-examination as the

11     Prosecution has for its direct examination, including the Rule 92 ter

12     materials and we are able to gauge that pretty accurately as opposed to

13     when they have amalgamated statements, when they use transcript from

14     previous proceedings.  This prior witness testified for about five and a

15     half hours in the Zupljanin case on direct examination and another hour

16     and a quarter here in this case, for six and three quarters hours.  And

17     you gave Dr. Karadzic three and a half hours in which to complete his

18     cross-examination with you I extended but that caused the time pressure

19     and so if you had given him six and quarters hours --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, let's be specific could you identify

21     areas or topics about which Mr. Karadzic was not able to cover due to

22     time constraint, in relation to the previous witness?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  I think in relation to the previous witness with

24     the extension that he was able to cover most of -- there are some

25     documents I think that make similar points to those that he made, that we

Page 19230

 1     left out, but in general he was able to complete, in this instance, his

 2     cross-examination but he did have to rush and he committed the fault of

 3     asking compound questions in the course of that.

 4             So I think if you had given him six and three-quarters hours he

 5     would have been happy to finish early for you, and yet without the same

 6     kind of time pressure that you put him under for every witness.  Which

 7     brings me to the next witness:  I want to also make a timely application

 8     for more time for the next witness.  Because he testified in direct

 9     examination for seven hours in the earlier case, and is expected to

10     testify for another hour here, making a total of eight hours and you've

11     allocated Dr. Karadzic three and a half hours for his cross-examination.

12     And I think it's been the practice at this Tribunal to at least give the

13     same amount of time as the Prosecution.  I don't understand why

14     Dr. Karadzic keeps being allocated such a short amount of time for each

15     witness.

16             And again, he can stop early, he won't have to use all of the

17     time if he doesn't need it, but when you put him under this kind of

18     pressure by restricting his time below that which seems to be reasonable

19     according to the practice of the Tribunal, then I think that we are all

20     suffering from that, not only him but the accurate flow of information to

21     the Trial Chamber.  So I would ask you to consider increasing the time

22     allocation for this next witness to eight hours, and if we don't use it

23     all, then we'll all be the better for it.

24             Finally, Mr. President, I would like to go into private session

25     to make a motion with respect to the witness's protective measures.

Page 19231

 1     I understand the next witness is to testify entirely in closed session,

 2     and we object to that and I'd like to put on the record why.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we go -- may the Chamber move into private

 5     session.

 6                           [Private session]

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Page 19232

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23                           [Closed session]

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Page 19233











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17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 21st day of

19                           September, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.