Page 19614
1 Friday, 30 September 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Mr. Sivac.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
8 WITNESS: NUSRET SIVAC [Resumed]
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: I'm very pleased to be able to start with your
11 evidence today.
12 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, good morning,
14 Excellencies, good morning.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sivac.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I hope that in e-court we have your book. On page 98 you say
19 that Aziz Aliskovic and his group were to surrender before 1400 hours.
20 They had killed those lads in the car, those reservists and then you
21 continue to say, "I informed them up there at Hambarine to be prepared
22 and to remove the people."
23 A. Just a moment. Precisely because of the fact that you are
24 misinterpreting some parts of my book, I have the book before me. What
25 did you say, what page was that? 98? Where does it say that?
Page 19615
1 Q. You say this, or rather somebody from the Muslim side is
2 explaining what had been said and what the Serbs had requested. The
3 Serbs requested something and then people at Hambarine were informed to
4 be prepared. Who said that?
5 A. Dr. Edo Sadikovic when Mirza Mujadzic and the other from the
6 leadership of the SDA and the HDZ after the takeover of power fled and
7 disappeared from the political scene, the two of them, as respectable and
8 reputable citizens tried to talk to somebody from the Serbian leadership
9 and to delay the start of the shelling of Hambarine. They wanted to
10 prevent innocent casualties among the civilian population.
11 Q. You've mentioned Dr. Eso. Is it correct that Dr. Eso authored a
12 text in Kozarski Vjesnik that irritated the Serbs and that that was being
13 done in those critical days in 1992, you said that you liked them but I'm
14 asking you whether those texts were found to be irritating by the Serbs.
15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton?
16 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, before we go much further with this
17 process which just follows on to what was happening yesterday, I wonder
18 if we can, since Dr. Karadzic says the book has been uploaded in e-court
19 have the book called up, the relevant page called up and Dr. Karadzic can
20 actually show this Court exactly what passage he's referring to rather
21 than deal with paraphrasing, which -- and allegations of what the witness
22 actually said which no one is in a position to judge without seeing the
23 actual page in front of them.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much. I quite agree. What's the
25 e-court number?
Page 19616
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04500. 1D04500.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. This is your book, isn't it?
4 A. Yes, this is the first edition of my book.
5 Q. Let's look at page 62. The war has already started in Bosnia --
6 MS. EDGERTON: Sorry, Your Honours, just one more thing. I see
7 that there is now a document in English on the screen in front of you,
8 and just to avoid any misunderstanding about the nature of this document,
9 that English document is not a translation, it doesn't purport to be a
10 translation. As far as we are able to see, it's some kind of topical
11 summary of some 58 pages of this book of more than 250 pages that may be
12 more of a guide to what the book might contain, but not having the
13 translation, I'm not prepared to say to Your Honours that this summary is
14 even accurate. So I just want to make that abundantly clear.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, can you help us in this regard?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that these are excerpts,
17 translated into English, but not in the right order. You can see that
18 the book is actually a diary, and the translation was done by the
19 Prosecution. They have selected the parts to be translated, and I don't
20 think that they paraphrased. I believe that the text was translated word
21 for word.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton?
23 MS. EDGERTON: I just said that it was not.
24 JUDGE KWON: But I see the ERN number.
25 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, if I can be helpful so the Court can
Page 19617
1 see it very quickly, if you look at the last passage on the first page it
2 says the author describes, the author comments on. You can see on its
3 face, it doesn't pretend to be a translation. It's sort of a topical
4 guide.
5 JUDGE KWON: My question is, who prepared this? Mr. Karadzic?
6 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, it is an OTP product which is another
7 reason why we can say with some confidence it's not a translation.
8 JUDGE KWON: So you concede that it is prepared by the OTP.
9 MR. TIEGER: Yes, but it is not a translation of what the witness
10 has written. It's a guide to what the contents may be. In other words,
11 generally speaking, what topics or issues are addressed at particular
12 areas so ...
13 I think Ms. Edgerton's point was that - and I hope it's been
14 useful - was that the Court not be misled into thinking that this is a
15 translation of what the witness's words are in the book. Instead, it's a
16 description by someone who reviewed the book about what that person
17 considered some of the passages contained.
18 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That's helpful. We can proceed.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, if the witness is here, I
20 believe that he can confirm for us or deny what his book says. We are
21 really not responsible for this English version.
22 I would like to call up page 62 in the book. In e-court it has
23 to be a different page. It's 59 in e-court.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Here you say that Milosevic is shooting at Sarajevo according to
Page 19618
1 Kozarski Vjesnik. There is war going on in Sarajevo but Kozarski Vjesnik
2 is a Muslim and Serbian paper.
3 A. Yes, the same texts were published by Kozarski Vjesnik at the
4 time.
5 Q. Thank you. And now can we look at page 67 in the book? 64 in
6 e-court. Is it true that you observed some renegade gangs in Prijedor
7 and that you wrote about that?
8 A. Yes. Those were individuals with criminal past who had arrived
9 from Serbia and ended up in Prijedor. They made most of the time of lack
10 of law and order to instigate incidents, to enter Muslim houses and to
11 loot.
12 Q. Could you please read the first sentence in the second paragraph
13 from the top of the page?
14 A. Me?
15 Q. Yes, you, if you can, just the first sentence.
16 A. "Different groups of thugs started" --
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters note we do not have that on
18 the screen and the witness is reading too fast.
19 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters were not able to follow. What
20 paragraph did you refer to?
21 And when you -- when reading, Mr. Sivac, could you slow down for
22 the benefits of the interpreters? Do we have that passage in front of
23 us?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In Serbian, it is the second
25 paragraph on the page starting from the top of the page.
Page 19619
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Well, we don't have to go on. However, you don't say here that
3 they were from Serbia but just that they were gangs and that nobody could
4 do anything to them.
5 A. At that time, everybody knew where they had come from. It was
6 self-understood.
7 Q. You go on to say that a lad beat up an officer, he was remanded
8 in custody by the army and then released very soon thereafter, and then
9 he went and joined Slavko Ecimovic in the forest; is that correct?
10 A. Yes, I wrote about that event.
11 Q. And you wonder how come that the military had become so
12 humanitarian in nature and that they didn't keep him for a long time?
13 A. Yes, that's correct. That young man was well known to all
14 security services. He had a criminal record. He had just arrived from
15 one --
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton?
17 MS. EDGERTON: What page are we referring to? As far as I can
18 see it's not on the pages on the screen in front of us.
19 JUDGE KWON: The book is not evidence. And then we don't have
20 English page. Does it have any point of having a specific page? That's
21 why I let him go. And the witness confirmed.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 JUDGE KWON: Keep in mind this book is not in evidence. Let's
24 continue.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we can tender the pages from
Page 19620
1 which we quoted and which the witness confirmed but I don't have the time
2 to quote but if the witness confirms --
3 JUDGE KWON: If you are minded to tender the pages you showed to
4 the witness, then you have to upload the correct page so that we can
5 follow.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we then look at
7 page 78 in the book? I believe it's 74 in e-court. Just bear with me.
8 75 in e-court.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. You say that you are standing on the banks of the Sana with your
11 cousin or nephew, and you ask him, "Did you return your rifle and uniform
12 you were a member of the reserve police?" I asked Adnan.
13 "I didn't and I won't because I will still need it."
14 Is that what he told you?
15 A. Yes, more or less.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the page be admitted can the
18 book be given an exhibit number and can the page be admitted?
19 JUDGE KWON: What page? Do you mean page 78?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. 75 in e-court.
21 JUDGE KWON: That will be marked for identification.
22 THE REGISTRAR: It will be assigned Exhibit D1742 marked for
23 identification. Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. And then it says a lull before the storm. And there you describe
Page 19621
1 how you gather spontaneously in various pubs and bars and you discuss the
2 situation, you and your friends; right?
3 A. Yes, that's correct.
4 Q. Thank you. That's on the same page. So it can stay as is.
5 And now can we look at page 80? 77 in e-court.
6 In May you spoke to Dr. Eso and he says:
7 [As read] "Our party leaders who instigated people the most fled
8 and left the people in the cold, and the only person who stayed behind is
9 the president of the municipality."
10 Is that what you said?
11 A. Yes, more or less.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this page be admitted and can
13 we go to the next one?
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That can be added. Page 80 in hard
15 copy.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just bear with me for a moment.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Dr. Eso smiled and said that he had visited Slavko at Kurevo. He
19 found about 100 lads there. They are not well-armed. They need weapons
20 and food.
21 This is still on page 81, the fourth passage from the top right.
22 He informed you that he had visited Slavko at Kurevo, Slavko had
23 about 100 lads, he needed weapons, food and tobacco. He would go there
24 again and he asked you to prepare things for him. Is that what he said?
25 A. Yes, more or less.
Page 19622
1 Q. So Dr. Eso is not only a charmer but he is also Slavko Ecimovic's
2 logistics man?
3 A. He was Slavko Ecimovic's friend and it says on one of the pages
4 of my book that he was the one who tried to dissuade Slavko from
5 embarking on any adventures.
6 Q. However, it says here that you should prepare food and weapons,
7 that he would go and visit Slavko at Kurevo again. What is Kurevo?
8 A. Kurevo is in the hinterland of Hambarine, in Prijedor, but Eso
9 said it in very general terms, not only to me, there were a few other
10 friends of mine together with me there and he -- when he said, "You
11 should ...," he meant all of us, plural.
12 Q. So he says you have to prepare something to -- for me to take to
13 them. He -- they are up there, they decided to fight, please prepare
14 something. Is that what it says here?
15 A. Yes, but that was taken out of the context. Slavko Ecimovic did
16 not intend to fight in Prijedor. They intended to join the
17 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to try and break through to the Bihac
18 territory and there they were going to join the
19 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
20 Q. Thank you. Did they not attack Prijedor after that instead of
21 going to Bihac? Am I right in thinking that?
22 A. Mr. Karadzic, in my statement or rather on day 1 of my testimony
23 I told you that there were a lot of contradictions there. You gave me a
24 list of those potential or possible attackers who had attacked this town
25 of Prijedor. Among them are the names of some individuals who most
Page 19623
1 probably according to what I know and especially remember after such a
2 long time, simply convinced Slavko Ecimovic to embark on that adventure,
3 but the underlining idea was to break up the group.
4 Q. So those Muslims were working on behalf of the Serbs, they
5 trapped Slavko?
6 A. Yes, and last time when we spoke, you told us that you received
7 information on the same day as to what the Muslims had been up to. The
8 same situation prevailed among those who were in Slavko's group. There
9 were people there who from day 1 participated in fighting in Croatia in
10 the most elite Serb units there. And they were even decorated as good
11 fighters. And now look at the excerpt: They went to Slavko and they
12 convinced him that they should go and liberate Prijedor in other words,
13 those Serb heroes were out there, apparently, to fight against the Serbs.
14 Q. The Serb heroes of Muslim faith; right?
15 A. Yes, that's correct. If you want me to, I can mention their
16 names, but I don't think it's necessary. You will find their names on
17 the list that the security services of Prijedor submitted to the OTP.
18 Q. Thank you. And then grateful Serbs reported all those men of
19 theirs in Slavko's unit to the OTP?
20 A. Well, this is the biggest farce in all of that. I mean even you
21 are coming to the fact that something is not quite right here. These
22 people were freed in some sort of staged procedure. They survived but
23 they were not in the camp. They went through all of these traumas that
24 they went through, and now are in some other countries.
25 Q. Thank you. Well, some other witnesses will confirm that.
Page 19624
1 Mr. Sivac, on page 90, I think this is page 87 in the e-court.
2 MS. EDGERTON: I wonder if we could remove the English version
3 from the right-hand side of the page so we could just have the whole
4 B/C/S page displayed. Thanks.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Could you please look to check if it's correct that Croat
7 Branko Bijekic, the commander of the Ljubija police station was replaced
8 by Aliskovic and the others because he was not in favour of the fighting?
9 Can you look at what it says here, how to install Serbian power and so on
10 and so forth and that is thus I will tell you which paragraph that is,
11 that is the last paragraph, the biggest paragraph, the duties of the
12 commander here were performed by Croat Branko Bijekic, he was probably
13 their man who tried to implement what the SDS leaders and security
14 services of Prijedor asked him to do.
15 What was it that they asked him to do, what did the SDS ask him
16 to do? Not to fight?
17 A. Not the SDS. Would you like me to read it so that the
18 interpreters can -- but I think that the Trial Chamber has an English
19 version. You can see that I do not mention fighting anywhere. I am only
20 saying that the Serbian authorities in Prijedor were prevented --
21 Q. Approach to Ljubija and Kozarac and Muslim concentrations?
22 A. No, no. It's not like that. You're paraphrasing again.
23 Q. All right. You tell us how it was?
24 A. Branko Bijekic was the police commander who completely listened
25 to the Serbian authorities, which had come to Prijedor by force and he
Page 19625
1 tried to join that police station too, to the Serbian police station in
2 Prijedor. However, a group headed by Aziz Aliskovic opposed that, also
3 Fikret Sarajlic and others, and they simply forbade Branko Bijekic from
4 coming to the Ljubija police station, and as the people of Kozarac, they
5 accepted that the police station in Ljubija bear the insignia or markings
6 of internationally recognised Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 Q. Is that the same Aliskovic who was charged with the murder or the
8 killing of a soldier in Hambarine? There are two Aziz Aliskovics or is
9 this the same person?
10 A. This is the same person. However, on 22 May the Ljubija police
11 station was taken over by the new Serbian authorities, and all the
12 policemen who were Muslims and Croats were driven away from their posts.
13 Q. Thank you. And were they authorised to replace him or was this a
14 lynch?
15 A. Well, lynch is a strong word, but I don't know what to say for
16 what was done in Prijedor when the Serbian Democratic Party with the help
17 of the army and the police actually perpetrated a much greater lynch.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we adopt this page?
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. This will be added.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 99, please? And
22 that is probably 97 in e-court. 96, excuse me.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Can I ask you where it says here:
25 [As read] "We reached Kurevo, one of the defenders testified, we
Page 19626
1 came from Kurevo to Hambarine, and engaged into battle in order to
2 protect the people. In this direct battle, we killed a number of
3 Chetniks this was our first action and our first fight"; is that right?
4 A. Yes, that's what it says here. This is paraphrasing. It's
5 something that one of those young men from up in Hambarine said.
6 Q. Thank you. And you can see there that some zoljas were broken
7 down. Who said this, do you know?
8 A. I think that his name is the same as yours, his name is
9 Senad Karadzic, the son of Ferid Karadzic, who was killed down there on
10 the left bank of the Sana.
11 Q. And can you look at what you say underneath Kozarac? The people
12 of Kozarac had a reputation of being well-armed and well-trained and that
13 they would not surrender so easily; is that right?
14 A. Well, this is my own interpretation and my own impressions based
15 on what I heard and what I read in the Kozarski Vjesnik.
16 Q. And that is why you say that is why the Serbian people postponed
17 resolving the question of Kozarac and the neighbouring settlements?
18 A. What is your question?
19 Q. So the question is: Did the Serbian authorities postpone and did
20 they negotiate during that time?
21 A. Well, let me tell you this, already in 1992 Simo Drljaca and the
22 Serbian authorities kept waving and showing some lists which were -- did
23 not actually show that the people of Kozarac were well-armed, that they
24 had 3.500 rifles and weapons, none of that was actually true. This was
25 just their way of motivating the Serbs to create a sense of mistrust
Page 19627
1 among them.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we adopt this page, please?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the following page,
6 please?
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And now here you describe the 24th of May. This is all after
9 Hambarine; is that right, when the Serbs issued an ultimatum for the
10 weapons to be handed over and to have Aliskovic and those killers
11 responsible for the shooting on those soldiers to surrender, and then you
12 say on the third and fourth paragraph from the top the weapons that came
13 into Kozarac and were distributed to the people were there thanks to able
14 individuals, people who loved their country, rather than the result of
15 work of some organisations and powers and parties that were in power.
16 Among those who obtained some weapons were Hasan Didin, Omer Mahmuljin,
17 Kole Kusuran, Azur Jakupovic, Captain Sead Cirkin and so on. And then
18 you say Becir Medunjanin, Mustafa Tadzic, Islam Bahonjic, bravely stood
19 up, young men who entered into legend and on whom Kozarac will be proud
20 of, Hasan Mujcic, Didin; Suad Besic, Dudo; Sejo Bahonjic;
21 Muamer Kulenovic; Dado Blazevic and others. And then you continue with
22 some more names. So these are people who had embarked into battle
23 against the Serbian military and you declare them heroes; is that right?
24 A. Well, yes. When I read this text, yes, but don't forget,
25 Mr. Karadzic, that they were the legal representatives and they had the
Page 19628
1 right to fight and they had the legal right to defend their homes. They
2 were members of the regular police of Bosnia-Herzegovina. So don't
3 forget that.
4 Q. Thank you. Thank you. I hope that we will have a little more
5 time because the schedule has been changed.
6 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, don't rely on that. The Chamber at
7 the moment is not minded to extend your time for your cross-examination.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this page, please?
9 Then I will be under time pressure. And the interpreters are going to
10 complain.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, this will be added.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the document
13 65 ter 05748 and then we will go back to the book again.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You agree that from 6 April until 24 May, Kozarac was not touched
16 and it was not touched until the incident in Hambarine; is that right?
17 A. Yes. That's correct.
18 Q. Thank you. Can you please look at this document?
19 A. Yes, I see it.
20 Q. This is a report, military secret, strictly confidential, and so
21 on and so forth, command of the 1st Krajina Corps describing the
22 liquidation of the Green Berets in the broader area of Kozarac on 27 May.
23 So the battle for Kozarac lasted for three days; is that right?
24 A. The shelling lasted for a day and a half, and then the Serbian
25 infantry, their elite units, took a very short time to overrun Kozarac
Page 19629
1 and the broader area.
2 Q. Can you look at points 3 and 4, where there is a reference to
3 1.500 to 2.000 men without heavy weapons and it indicates the areas.
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic please be asked to repeat
5 the name?
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you repeat the name?
7 Interpreters couldn't hear that.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].
9 Q. Paragraph 4, there is a description of where the Green Berets
10 were deployed, and it refers to the names of these localities, and then
11 it states that there were between 80 and 100 persons killed and about
12 1.500 captured, and it states that a number of the Green Berets, 100 to
13 200 persons, were at large on mount Kozarac, among the Serbs there were
14 five killed and 20 wounded. Minor damage on the track assembly of two
15 M-84s and so on and so forth. Do you agree that there were 80 to 100
16 killed and about 1.500 captured?
17 A. No. I do not agree with that, Mr. Karadzic. According to my
18 information, when Kozarac was ethnically cleansed about 800 people of
19 Kozarac were killed.
20 Q. Let's take it slowly. We will come to that. So this is from
21 that time, it's a strictly confidential military report on a completed
22 action.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this, please.
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton?
25 MS. EDGERTON: The witness didn't agree with the document or the
Page 19630
1 contents of the document, but I have no issue with the authenticity of
2 the document.
3 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted.
4 THE REGISTRAR: And assigned Exhibit number D1743. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we go back to the
6 book now again, the previous document? Can we look at page 104 in the
7 book? In the e-court, that is page 101.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you look at the bottom of the page, 27 May, could you please
10 read out to us these last four lines at the bottom of the page?
11 A. There is real chaos today in Prijedor. Expelled persons from the
12 area of Kozarac are arriving from all sides.
13 Q. Thank you. So the persons who are expelled from Kozarac are
14 arriving to the town where the Serbs are in a majority; is that right?
15 A. Yes. They just came for a short period of time, and then would
16 be assembled by the Serb police into trucks and taken to Trnopolje.
17 Q. All right. Well anyway, they are fleeing to Prijedor. Can we
18 look at the next page, please? And can we tender this page, please?
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Adding it.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. When I asked you if you were told that Keraterm was a temporary
23 shelter, you said that nobody said that. Can you look at the second
24 paragraph from the top, the Serbian authorities explained that Keraterm
25 was just temporary accommodation until the combat quiets down; is that
Page 19631
1 right?
2 A. That's what you say but Keraterm was not temporary accommodation.
3 It was there until 6 August 1992.
4 Q. Sir, did you not write that the Serbian authorities explained
5 that Keraterm was a temporary accommodation?
6 A. Yes, it says that but this is a lie. It's an outrageous lie.
7 Q. Can we just look at this? You say that dugouts are referred to
8 in Kozarusa and that a radio station was found and you said that these
9 rumours contributed to the preparation of the Serbs?
10 A. Well, yes. I quoted an extremist Serb here who was sending out
11 false news items about a person from Kozarac whom we all knew very well.
12 Q. Were there dugouts around Prijedor?
13 A. No. It is not correct that there were dugouts around Prijedor.
14 Q. All right. Thank you we will come to that but perhaps not with
15 you but we have Muslim sources about that. Can we tender this page,
16 please, and then can we go to page 107?
17 JUDGE KWON: Page 105 will be added.
18 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, can I make a quick
19 observation? I know Dr. Karadzic feels he's moving fast but he
20 challenges the witness based on something allegedly said, that is the --
21 whether Keraterm was a temporary facility and then asserts that the
22 witness said that before. In fact, I struggled to find any previous
23 reference along those lines, and the question was, do you remember that
24 you were told that you would be in Keraterm or rather in Omarska for only
25 a short period of time, that you would be interviewed and that you would
Page 19632
1 then be sent home. So what the witness was directly told when he went
2 to, in that case, Omarska was changed which Dr. Karadzic then transmutes
3 later to assert that the witness is changing his testimony, which is
4 obviously not the case. That is one reason why we have attempted to
5 insist in the past upon the transcript references for such
6 representations.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger. However, the Chamber is able
8 to follow. Let's proceed.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
10 Q. Can we see if this is correct: It says that several groups of
11 brave Kozarac defenders did withdraw and decided and opted for guerrilla
12 warfare. Now, if you look further, page 107 at the bottom, the last
13 paragraph:
14 [As read] "Several groups of brave Kozarac defenders decided
15 after all to withdraw to the Kozara woods and opted for a guerrilla
16 warfare and trying a breakthrough through the forest towards the river
17 Una"; correct?
18 A. Well, yes, that's what it says there, that's the information
19 pertaining to 28 May 1992 but it comes from other sources.
20 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know that such groups as this one
21 actually stayed in the Prijedor area up until 1994 occasionally killing
22 villagers who -- farmers who were working the land and attacking patrols?
23 A. Well, that's what you're saying, Mr. Karadzic. But I don't have
24 that information and I don't believe it's correct.
25 Q. Thank you.
Page 19633
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender this, please.
2 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please?
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Now, on this page, would you agree, you describe what the
6 Main Board of the SDA did, that they dispersed, that they were
7 irresponsible and so on, and then in the penultimate paragraph you say:
8 [As read] "However, in spite of all these things that they failed
9 to do at the time, this all will be resolved toward the end of the war."
10 And then you mention:
11 [As read] "Mirza Mujadzic, Hilmo Kopovac [phoen], Emir Mujadzic,
12 Denijal Dzafic, Elvedin Rizvanovic, Nijaz Kapetanovic, Mustafa Keric and
13 others will have to face those who remained alive and who went through
14 the hell of Hambarine, Kozarac, Prijedor, Brdo, Keraterm, Omarska ..."
15 and so on. So --
16 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the last part
17 of his question?
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sivac.
19 The interpreters were not able to hear the last part of your
20 question, Mr. Karadzic.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Well, I asked this: You feel that they are responsible. For
23 what? What is their responsibility, according to you? And the witness
24 was actually on his way to reply.
25 A. Well, because with their Serb friends, they escaped and they were
Page 19634
1 safe and they left the people, the civilians, there at the will of the
2 Serb army.
3 Q. Thank you. Mr. Sivac, did you know that in various variants that
4 we adopted, Prijedor was envisaged, the entire area of Prijedor, or some
5 of the Muslim areas, to be part of a Muslim republic?
6 A. Well, that's what you're saying today, but me and my folks from
7 Prijedor, we never heard of any such proposal.
8 Q. Thank you. Can we now have page 112? I believe that's page 109
9 or 110 in e-court but it's page 112 from the book -- 109 in e-court.
10 An attempt to liberate, can you see toward the end, does it say
11 here in the morning around 400 -- 4.20 fire broke -- there was a lot of
12 firing, there was a lot of shooting on the street before that as well.
13 They were just trying to celebrate and shooting in the air. They would
14 come to the main street and then empty their magazines, but this morning,
15 however, it seemed to be a bit serious. The shooting was getting more
16 serious. And it was approaching the centre of town.
17 A. Well, yes, that's how it was.
18 Q. And that's what you said there?
19 A. We supposed that there was fighting going on, and that there were
20 only a small arms used.
21 Q. This is the attack that was led by Slavko Ecimovic, an attack on
22 Prijedor; correct?
23 A. Well, you say an attack but what I'm saying is that was an
24 attempt to liberate Prijedor.
25 Q. Thank you. Could we tender this page, please?
Page 19635
1 JUDGE KWON: Page 112 will be added. Mr. Karadzic, we will be
2 adding those pages that have been referred to by you only.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that suits me. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: So it is your intention not to tender page 108?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do have it, Your Excellency, but
6 it slipped my mind. What I would like to tender is the documents or the
7 pages that I'm asking for here, and that I'm trying to check with the
8 witness.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Where he says his Serb friends,
11 Mujadzic and others. Can we now have 123, page 123, please, that's page
12 120 in e-court.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Here you explain what the Serb newspapers reported on but before
15 that there is your note, your comment:
16 [As read] "There was no doubt any more, Prijedor had been
17 attacked, and the citizens were trying to get closer to the centre of the
18 town because they saw the Green Berets withdrawing"; is that correct?
19 A. Well, yes, but there was what the Serb papers reported and I'm
20 just quoting that part of their reports, newspaper reports.
21 Q. You're quoting that a little lower but you're not saying that
22 this is a quote as well. These are your words?
23 A. Well, no, Mr. Karadzic. Would you please take a look at the
24 subtitle there? It is in bold print. It says, "What the Serb newspapers
25 reported on the attack on Prijedor." And then it goes on to say there
Page 19636
1 was no doubt any more, everyone knew that Prijedor had been -- is being
2 attacked and the citizens of the downtown areas because they saw the
3 Green Berets withdrawing close to the reserve officers' hall knew that
4 the Serbs had managed to defend Prijedor.
5 Q. But look at the third paragraph, it says although this task was
6 relatively easy, well, would Serbs actually use this term "lahak" for
7 "easy"? Or is that a Muslim variant of the word "lak" in Serbian?
8 A. Well, Serbs wouldn't use this but actually, the person who
9 revised the text, this text, just decided to use the Bosniak term.
10 Q. Thank you. Could we please tender this?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 128, please? I
13 believe in e-court that's 125.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You mention Mirzet and you say that -- or actually, he writes
16 something here. You actually quote his words. Is this correct, what he
17 states here?
18 A. Well, for the most part it is correct. I paraphrased his words
19 or I paraphrased his words in a conversation he had with me.
20 Q. That Slavko had managed to obtain some zoljas and other weapons
21 and that the entire areas of Carakovo, Hambarine, Rizvanovici, Rakovcani,
22 Biscani and Sredici were still free territory so that in those areas we
23 were able to organise free movement; correct?
24 A. Yes. But that was up -- that was before 20 July when the ethnic
25 cleansing of these parts of the Muslim -- of the Prijedor municipality
Page 19637
1 began.
2 Q. Well, would you please refrain from comments? Now, I will put
3 questions to you and you just answer them. Can we have the next page,
4 please?
5 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours --
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes?
7 MS. EDGERTON: The witness was, quite properly, contextualising
8 his answer for the benefit of everyone in the courtroom and not making
9 any comments. It's not, with respect, for Dr. Karadzic to admonish the
10 witness in that regard.
11 JUDGE KWON: By all means.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Very well. Mr. Sivac, do you know that at one point, there was
14 an intermingling of the fighters and the civilians, those who actually
15 were combatants, they mingled with civilians, and on 3 May over 3.000
16 people were arrested?
17 A. Mr. Karadzic, I've already asked you earlier to mention the time
18 and site or locality that you're referring to when you put a question to
19 me. I don't understand what you're referring to here, what area and so
20 on.
21 Q. Well, Mr. Sivac, I'm talking about the attack on Prijedor, or as
22 you put it, the attempt to liberate Prijedor, which occurred on 30 May.
23 Now, is it true that a lot of civilians from combat-affected areas had
24 actually arrived or been trickling into Prijedor and is it true that at
25 that time, over 3.000 people were taken prisoner, they were all
Page 19638
1 intermingled there, the combatants and the civilians, they were taken
2 prisoner, and taken to Keraterm, correct, and then from Keraterm to
3 Omarska?
4 A. Well, after this operation, this attempt at liberating Prijedor,
5 within two hours, Slavko Ecimovic's group was completely broken up and
6 most of the men of his men were killed.
7 Q. That's not what I'm asking you about. I'm asking you, as I put
8 it already: Did a lot of civilians congregate on Prijedor or were over
9 3.000 people arrested and taken to these two centres that I mentioned
10 earlier?
11 A. Mr. Karadzic, your question is not clear. What do you mean
12 people congregated on Prijedor? What do you mean by "congregated"?
13 Q. Well, that's what you said. You said that people fled Kozarac
14 and went to Prijedor.
15 A. Well, we've already cleared that up a few moments ago and
16 I explained what exactly I was referring to, but now you're talking about
17 Prijedor. The people from Kozarac have nothing to do with the people
18 from Prijedor. Would you please keep them separate.
19 Q. Did civilians from Kozarac flee to Prijedor?
20 A. Well, again, you are going on and on with the same story.
21 I already told you a few moments ago that, yes, a group of civilians from
22 Kozarac did -- or were -- did arrive but then they were rounded up, put
23 on buses and sent to Trnopolje.
24 Q. Well, that was the case with those people who were -- who -- for
25 whom it was impossible to find any accommodation - right? - but the
Page 19639
1 others were put up with their friends.
2 A. Well, yes, but that only lasted a couple of days but then the
3 police went and also rounded up those people, put them on buses and sent
4 them also to Trnopolje.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, you were taken into custody on 10 June and then
6 you were sent back home because it was an error, correct, and then and
7 you writes about there on page 156, probably 153 in e-court, and then you
8 were stopped and those escorts who were taking you back home just barely
9 managed to actually save you from those people who were on the road and
10 who intercepted the vehicle. Well, these people who escorted you that
11 were in the car with you they got out of the car they actually bribed
12 those attackers with some cigarettes and then they saw you off home?
13 A. Well, that's correct.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his
15 question [sic]?
16 JUDGE KWON: Hm.
17 MS. EDGERTON: I think we've completely missed the witness's
18 answer because of the speed at which Dr. Karadzic has been moving.
19 JUDGE KWON: I think the witness said that's correct.
20 Is it correct, Mr. Sivac?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yeah, well, what I said was that
22 Mr. Karadzic is trying to actually blend together the people of Kozarac
23 and the people of Prijedor but they have nothing to do, one with the
24 other.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
Page 19640
1 Q. Well, we are talking about the check-point here, Mr. Sivac, and
2 we are talking about your escorts. They got out of the vehicle, they
3 bribed those attackers with cigarettes, and then they escorted you home;
4 correct?
5 A. Well, yes. What you've just mentioned now, that's correct.
6 I described that in my book.
7 Q. Thank you. On the second occasion, it was on 20 June, you were
8 arrested again and this time you were told that it was not an error;
9 correct?
10 A. Yes, that's correct.
11 Q. Did you ever find out, on the basis of whose interrogation or,
12 rather, stories, were you arrested the second time around and when they
13 said that it wasn't an error?
14 A. Well, they never mentioned why or on whose authority they
15 arrested people.
16 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you about on whose authority. I'm asking you
17 about the following: After they questioned some other people they
18 concluded that they should arrest you again. Now, who was it who
19 actually said things about you that led to your arrest? Based on whose
20 testimony or based on whose statement were you arrested the second time?
21 A. Well, there were no statements or no interviews. What are you
22 trying to say? People were just picked up in the street, if they ran
23 into a Serb patrol, they would just be picked up, if they were recognised
24 as Muslims, they would be picked up, taken to -- into custody and taken
25 to Keraterm or Omarska, depending on where.
Page 19641
1 Q. Thank you. But didn't they find out that, together with Dr. Eso
2 and others, you actually supplied Slavko and his renegade group with
3 logistics, logistical materials? That's what you also mention in your
4 book; correct?
5 A. Well, again, you're trying to impute things to me that I did not
6 say. Mr. Karadzic, I don't want to use a profanity because I respect
7 this Court but -- in my answer to you, but let me just say that this is
8 one of the most stupid things I ever heard in my life.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, you told us about the destiny of a man named
10 Crnalic; correct?
11 A. Well, yes, his name was - and let me just make very clear -
12 Asmir, Vico, Crnalic, he's a neighbour of mine.
13 Q. But is there any difference between what really happened to him
14 and what you wrote about in your book?
15 A. Well, no I don't see any difference. He was a participant and a
16 victim in that incident and I described the way that incident occurred.
17 Q. Could you please tell us briefly what it was that happened to
18 him, what was it that you saw?
19 A. Mr. Karadzic, I saw a part of what happened, and I also learned
20 from some other people who were in the immediate vicinity of the
21 incident, whether Asmir, Vico, Crnalic was killed and I already talked
22 about this person at length. This is a young man who was retarded from
23 an early age, and I don't know, according to you who would have said
24 anything about him that would give grounds for his being taken into a
25 camp.
Page 19642
1 Q. Well, if we had more time, I would go into details but would you
2 please describe what it was that you saw yourself?
3 A. Well, I saw, and as I said I also heard from the people who were
4 in his immediate vicinity, that at one point, he was very thirsty and he
5 got to his feet, he raised a bottle, trying to signal the guard that he
6 needed water, and that he would like to go and pour some water into the
7 bottle. The guard did not allow him to do that. He just pretended like
8 he was drinking from that bottle, and then he began to dance, he did a
9 jig, and then a group of guards surrounded him because they didn't know
10 that he was a retarded man, and at one point they even encouraged him,
11 they started telling him, "Come on, come on, keep on going." And then
12 one of the most bloodthirsty of those guards who co-ordinated the work of
13 the interrogators and the people who arrested these detainees, and then
14 he, Asmir Crnalic, ran out of that building and he was taken to the
15 "White House". He was taken to the room of the left-hand side which was
16 really meant for execution.
17 Q. How do you know that, sir?
18 A. I know, Mr. Karadzic, because whoever ended up in that room was
19 killed in Omarska.
20 Q. What did you see? Which of the killings, which of the executions
21 did you see?
22 A. Mr. Karadzic, this is a very hypocritical question. Are you
23 saying that we could take photos, that we actually gloated in the murders
24 that were carried out by your subjects?
25 Q. Sir, you are an eyewitness, you're a participant, a protagonist,
Page 19643
1 a victim. What did you see?
2 A. I saw at first -- when Asmir, Vico, Crnalic was trying to leave
3 the "White House" through a window and to go back to where all of us
4 were, and when he put his foot on the windowsill, one of the guards who
5 was standing guard, the sentry near the restaurant, shot at him and at
6 that moment, we received a command to lie down with -- facing the asphalt
7 road, and then we were allowed to sit up again after a while, and then we
8 saw Asmir Crnalic's dead body lying motionless in front of the "White
9 House".
10 Q. Thank you. In 1D05 --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Karadzic repeat the document number?
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. In the Kvocka case you said that he started spitting water on
14 them.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D04501? Page 4093.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you have seven minutes to conclude.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You say this: He started spitting water on them and then you say
19 that you didn't see him jumping out of the window. And you didn't say
20 that. And today you're saying that you actually saw that.
21 A. Mr. Karadzic, you didn't specify who he spit water -- who he spat
22 water at. Previously I was asked whether he was spitting water at the
23 guards and that's not true because they were at a distance from us
24 inmates.
25 Q. In the direction of the guards, can you see that, in the
Page 19644
1 direction of the guards?
2 A. That's not correct. That's a wrong interpretation. The guards
3 were at some distance of at least ten metres from us. He was spitting
4 water on the asphalt.
5 Q. And then you say that you didn't see him jumping out of the
6 window; right?
7 A. I told you that we had to lie down facing the asphalt and that
8 I heard some of the things from those people who were closest to the
9 "White House." That's what I said.
10 Q. In line 22, in line 20 you were asked did he jump out the window
11 and you say, I didn't see it, and I didn't say that. Is that right? Did
12 you say that?
13 A. I didn't say that. I don't know what it says here, but I have
14 just given you the complete story surrounding Asmir's murder. You asked
15 me whether I saw any of the executions.
16 Q. Can we now look at the amalgamated statement, page 179? You
17 speak about similar things. However, you say that he was spitting water
18 towards them and that he jumped out of the building through the building
19 and then that the guard opened fire at him?
20 A. It is possible, Mr. Karadzic, that was my first statement in
21 1994. I gave it to the OTP.
22 Q. The amalgamated statement, page 179, that's what I'm reading
23 from.
24 JUDGE KWON: I'm afraid there is no amalgamated statement in this
25 case.
Page 19645
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The material that was tendered.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Which of the executions of killings did you see, Mr. Sivac, which
4 of them at all?
5 A. Well, I saw the killing of Asmir Crnalic, Vico. I also --
6 Q. I apologise. Let me just ask you this: After that, they came
7 and asked you what his name was and they made a note of that?
8 A. No, they didn't come to me. The shift leader asked who knew the
9 man and I just happened to be nearby and I gave them his name and the
10 name was confirmed by the neighbours from his street who were together
11 with him.
12 Q. Your Excellencies, please give me the minutes leading up to the
13 break. I need one last question and three sub-questions. In the Stakic
14 case, you said that he managed to jump through the window - right? -
15 that's in the Stakic case page 174 in the amalgamated statement or rather
16 in the material that was proffered.
17 JUDGE KWON: What is tendered is his testimony in Stakic case.
18 Not an amalgamated statement or of that sort.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's instead of the
20 amalgamated statement according to 92 ter. That's what I meant. So far
21 we had amalgamated statements and this is instead of. 22700, I think
22 that's the 65 ter number and the page number is 6728 through 6733 and
23 you're describing the event and you say that he managed to jump through a
24 window and that later on you could infer or conclude that he had been
25 killed; right? That's page 174 in e-court and the document has been
Page 19646
1 admitted according to 92 ter rule. You were lying on your stomach and
2 later on you could conclude or rather you say, "We were able to confirm
3 that he had indeed been killed." Right?
4 A. And what is your question?
5 Q. Did you know that he had jumped out of the window, that he had
6 escaped the "White House," and that he was killed by the rifle shots?
7 A. No, that's not correct. You're misinterpreting my words again.
8 When we saw the dead body of Asmir Crnalic in front of the "White House,"
9 people who were lying on the road were closer to the "White House" and
10 they told us that he had put his foot on the windowsill in order to jump
11 out of the room where he had been locked in and then when he was on the
12 windowsill he was shot at and killed and obviously his body fell out of
13 the building in front of the window.
14 Q. And now you are quoted as saying:
15 [As read] [In English] "Asmir Crnalic was trying to jump out of
16 the window and that he had managed to jump out of the window. And then
17 the guards shot him. Is this correct, what you stated in your
18 statement?"
19 [Interpretation] And you say that you were very emotional and
20 that that was your 1994 statement, that you adhere by your words, your
21 memory was fresh at the time; isn't that what you said?
22 JUDGE KWON: Where can we find that passage?
23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, what I can find is over the course of
24 a number of pages actually, and the last couple of sentences of
25 Dr. Karadzic are pulled from page 6733 of the trial transcript in the
Page 19647
1 Stakic case and I would submit are actually put out of context again to
2 this witness.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I had enough time, I would take
4 things at a time and then we would be better off. Page 179 in e-court,
5 both question and the answer. Everything is there. I quoted the
6 question and that's a quote from the statement as well.
7 JUDGE KWON: Let's upload that page. Yes, Mr. Tieger?
8 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President, a quick translation issue at
9 32:15, I heard the witness use in his language the word "pista" it was
10 translated as "road." "Pista" is a particular -- has been used
11 repeatedly as a particular area of Omarska camp and it was often referred
12 to by that name so I think that can be checked in the -- on the original
13 tape and probably should be.
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter confirms that the witness,
15 indeed, used the word "pista."
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MS. EDGERTON: And this is the wrong trial proceedings. That's
18 because Dr. Karadzic didn't give the right 65 ter number to my
19 colleagues. I think that you are looking for 22701A.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. 22701A, I believe that
21 now we have it. There was a mistake but not mine. And now I believe we
22 have the right page. This is the page, right. Line 14.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Let's just look at the question. Bear with me. And your
25 question -- your answer starts on page 17. Or rather in line 17. And
Page 19648
1 let me read for you.
2 [In English] [As read] "Let me tell you, sir, when I recount this
3 event I sometimes become emotional perhaps, but I abide by my first
4 statement because in 1994 my memory was fresher and I remembered more
5 details. I see now that these details are very important to you. The
6 essence is true. Asmir, Vico, was a sick man. He was taken to the
7 "White House." When he tried to escape from the "White House" to the
8 "pista," he was shot."
9 [Interpretation] And so on and so forth. Is that what you
10 stated? Was that your evidence? Right or not?
11 A. What right or not? What was your question? I didn't understand
12 your question.
13 Q. I have just read out your answer back to you; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you. What else did you see? Who else was killed?
16 A. Mr. Karadzic, in Omarska, there were a lot of killings.
17 Q. Thank you. Tell me just about those that you saw, that you
18 testified to.
19 A. You have to understand that we were not there on some kind of a
20 holiday or a seminar of some sort, that we were able to debate things or
21 observe what was going on. Your most important strategy was --
22 Q. Thank you, thank you, just tell me what you saw.
23 A. I saw people who were dying from beatings and torture, that they
24 had been subject to.
25 Q. Tell us that. What did you see?
Page 19649
1 JUDGE KWON: Come to your last question.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can 1D0500 be admitted? Page 16 in
3 e-court. We saw it the day before yesterday. Then also page 68, 34.
4 JUDGE KWON: The pages shown to the witness can be added in
5 consultation with the Prosecution.
6 Yes, Ms. Edgerton?
7 MS. EDGERTON: I think Dr. Karadzic is referring to pages that
8 were shown the day before yesterday to the witness, and there actually
9 were no pages shown the day before yesterday to the witness.
10 JUDGE KWON: That's why I referred to the consultation. So with
11 the confirmation from the Prosecution, those pages shown to the witness
12 can be checked and then later added to that exhibit.
13 Do you see some problems?
14 MS. EDGERTON: I do see some problems but -- because there was
15 nothing shown to the witness, and in the spirits of fairness, the
16 witness, and in fact nobody in the Chamber, were in the position to find
17 out whether the witness was accurately quoted to understand any context,
18 to what was discussed with him. All we had was paraphrased and the
19 witness dealt with that as best he could. All that being said, what we
20 could try and do is engage in discussion with the Defence and perhaps
21 having said over these matters and perhaps having said that, the
22 Prosecution might want to reserve the right to review those pages and
23 pages around them and perhaps add relevant portions for the proper
24 context.
25 JUDGE KWON: Of course. We do appreciate your understanding.
Page 19650
1 Come back to the Chamber if there is a problem.
2 But your last question, Mr. Karadzic.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond briefly?
4 JUDGE KWON: No need. You don't have to. I take it you
5 concluded?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, I will wrap it up.
7 I announced a question with three sub-questions, that was going to be my
8 last question.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Do you agree, Mr. Sivac, that in Serbia there are around 68 to 70
11 per cent Serbs and there are 30 per cent non-Serbs, Hungarians,
12 Bulgarians, the Roma, Czech, Poles and so on and so forth? Do you agree
13 or do you know that fact, that there are about 30 per cent of national
14 minorities residing in Serbia?
15 A. I'm not familiar with statistical data but I don't have the
16 reason not to believe you.
17 Q. Thank you. Did you read the Islamic Declaration?
18 A. No. I read only classics, Mesa Selimovic, Ivo Andric, Garcia.
19 Q. Well, that's very commendable. Let's now look at page 64 in your
20 book. I believe it's 61 in e-court. 04500. Page 61 in e-court.
21 1D04500. That's it. And now can we look at page 61, at least I believe
22 it's 61. No, no, this is a good page.
23 Can I ask you to read the intentions of the leadership of the SDA
24 in this paragraph here?
25 A. What paragraph, Mr. Karadzic?
Page 19651
1 Q. Read all of it. Starting with the intentions of the leadership.
2 Can you see it?
3 A. Yes --
4 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness be asked to read slowly in
5 order to be interpreted?
6 JUDGE KWON: Could you start again and slow down when reading,
7 Mr. Sivac?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [As read] "The intentions of the
9 leadership of the Party of Democratic Action in Prijedor may have been
10 honest and correct, but in a duel with the Serbs they were losing,
11 wasting time and losing battles, because you can play fair only if the
12 other players play fair. However, on the opposing side there were those
13 who openly said there is no co-existence and peace between the Orthodox
14 faith and other peoples and their institutions. That's why the Serbs
15 will make it their right to use force and military to arrange their own
16 world where the Orthodox faith will prevail and where only Serbs will
17 live."
18 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Karadzic start his question all over
19 again?
20 JUDGE KWON: Start again your question.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Look at the sentence, "there is no peace and question existence
23 between the Orthodox faith and other peoples and their institutions."
24 Wasn't that the principal maxim of the Islamic Declaration? Or is that
25 the maxim of the Serbian people who have 30 per cent of the national
Page 19652
1 minority living with them? Why did you copy this from the
2 Islamic Declaration, Mr. Sivac?
3 A. These are your words, Mr. Karadzic. You are saying this. As an
4 author and as a man who wrote a book, I had every right to use poetic
5 licence and to use various sources and to quote things that at that
6 moment I deemed to be the most important for me and for the book.
7 I wanted to use the best expressions in order to best qualify all those
8 things that were happening in the territory of the municipality of
9 Prijedor.
10 Q. In the transcript we have poetic licence however, you said what?
11 JUDGE KWON: The record does not show what is the answer and what
12 is the question. We come -- should come to an end.
13 Do you have any redirect examination, Ms. Edgerton?
14 MS. EDGERTON: No.
15 JUDGE KWON: Then your final question, on an exceptional basis,
16 Mr. Karadzic.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. My question was this: You're here testifying under oath. You
19 are not a writer. So there is no licence either for me or for you. Are
20 you claiming that what you wrote in the book refers to the Serbs or is it
21 rather the principal postulate of the Islamic Declaration of
22 Alija Izetbegovic?
23 A. I don't know. I didn't read the Islamic Declaration written by
24 Alija Izetbegovic. However, the statement that I included in my book is
25 correct and I'm saying this under oath. Whatever I wrote in my book
Page 19653
1 I still adhere by it.
2 Q. And my final question: Of all the former Yugoslav republics
3 which of the republics had more minorities than Serbia and the Serbs?
4 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, he's had his final question. That's
5 final plus one.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That's it, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can these pages be admitted.
8 JUDGE KWON: Page 64 will be added to the existing --
9 MS. EDGERTON: Can I just -- page 63 immediately before that
10 is -- and I think the two pages after -- yeah, page 63 immediately before
11 that is the beginning of that chapter, the two pages don't show the whole
12 chapter but at least, perhaps, page 63 should be added to the --
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, what are we going to
15 do with these page numbers that I mentioned the day before yesterday, the
16 witness spoke about that, I didn't have to show it to him because he was
17 confirming that.
18 JUDGE KWON: Identify the page numbers you showed to the witness
19 and consult with the Prosecution and come back to the Chamber if there is
20 any problem.
21 Mr. Sivac, that concludes your evidence. I would like to thank
22 you on behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole for your coming
23 to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would also like to thank you for
25 having the time and the patience to listen to me one more time.
Page 19654
1 JUDGE KWON: We will rise all together. We will have a break for
2 half an hour and resume at 11.00.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Dzafic. Do you hear me in the
7 language you understand?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day. Yes, I can hear you in a
9 language I can understand.
10 JUDGE KWON: Could the witness kindly take the solemn
11 declaration.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly swear that I will speak
13 the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
14 WITNESS: ATIF DZAFIC
15 [Witness testified via videolink]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Dzafic. Please be seated and make
18 yourself comfortable.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honours.
22 Examination by Ms. Sutherland:
23 Q. Good morning, Mr. Dzafic. Please state your full name.
24 A. I am Atif Dzafic, the son of Avdo, born in 1950 in Sanica and
25 that is where I'm still living today.
Page 19655
1 Q. Mr. Dzafic, as we discussed on the videolink the other day, part
2 of your evidence in this case will be submitted in writing and we first
3 need to deal with the formalities associated with that submission. You
4 provided statements and information to representatives to the Office of
5 the Prosecutor of the ICTY and you testified before the ICTY in two
6 trials, the Brdjanin trial in 2002 and the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial on
7 4 and 5 February 2010; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. You've recently had an opportunity to review, with the assistance
10 of an interpreter, an amalgamated witness statement containing portions
11 of your evidence from your statements and your Stanisic and Zupljanin
12 testimony; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter 90248 [sic] on the screen,
15 please? Mr. Registrar, if the witness could be shown his amalgamated
16 witness statement.
17 Q. Mr. Dzafic, is that the document that you reviewed the other day?
18 A. Yes. That is the document that I looked at a day or two ago
19 here.
20 Q. There are a small number of facts stated that need to be correct
21 order clarified and if we could go quickly through these, in paragraph 1
22 on page 2 of the document, the fifth sentence, is it right that the dates
23 1985-1988 should read 1985-1990? That is, you studied at the Faculty of
24 Political Science from 1985 to 1988 and submitted your dissertation in
25 1990? Is that right?
Page 19656
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. You also studied at the Faculty of Political Science in Zagreb
3 not in Zadar as it currently reads which is what you stated in your
4 original statement in February 2001; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, yes, we did correct that. That is now correct.
6 Q. In paragraph 2 also on that page, you stated that you did your
7 JNA training at the reserve officers' school in Zadar, not in Zagreb as
8 it currently reads and you corrected this in an addendum to your
9 statement; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I assist? I think that the
12 Serbian version is somebody else's statement.
13 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Mr. Karadzic, what's on the screen
15 but the witness actually has a hard copy of the amalgamated witness
16 statement in his hand.
17 Q. Mr. Dzafic, if we could go to paragraph 6 on page 3?
18 JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated]
19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, just to correct the transcript it
20 should be 65 ter document 90284 [wrong translation on English channel].
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, Mr. Court deputy, the interpretation was
22 coming through in B/C/S not English. What was the number that you
23 stated?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, it should be 90284, amalgamated
25 ICTY witness statement of Dzafic, Atif. Thank you.
Page 19657
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: My apologies, that was the number I read.
2 Sorry. I apologise for that.
3 Q. Mr. Dzafic, on paragraph 6 on page 3, it states that you were
4 relieved of duty as commander of the Kljuc SJB on 21 May 1992. Can you
5 just clarify that at that time you held the rank of commander of the
6 police in the Kljuc public security station also known as the SJB? Is
7 that correct?
8 A. Yes. Until 21, or rather, 22 May I was the commander of the
9 police station in Kljuc.
10 Q. You say commander of the police station in Kljuc. Were you --
11 A. Since I did not sign the loyalty -- since I did not sign the
12 loyalty document for the Serbian authorities, I was called on 22 or 21
13 May and then I was relieved of duty. My weapons, I handed over and I was
14 told to leave the Kljuc police station.
15 Q. Yes, Mr. Dzafic. That's all contained in the amalgamated witness
16 statement. I simply want to know at this point in the position as
17 commander of the police, you reported directly to the chief of the SJB,
18 did you not?
19 A. According to our laws, as the commander I was personally
20 responsible to the chief, Kondic, for the tasks and responsibilities that
21 I was entrusted with.
22 Q. Mr. Dzafic, if I can now take you to paragraph 8 also on that
23 page, the sentence reads: "The municipality of Kljuc had the following
24 villages and hamlets within its borders:"
25 And this should read: "The municipality of Kljuc had the
Page 19658
1 following non-Serb villages and hamlets within its borders:"; is that
2 correct?
3 A. Yes. These were non-Serb settlements in the territory of the
4 Kljuc municipality.
5 Q. Finally, paragraph 24 on page 7, the sentence, "Kondic appointed
6 Dusan Stojakovic as the deputy commander," should read, "Kondic appointed
7 Dusan Stojakovic as the assistant commander"; is that right?
8 A. Correct. Stojakovic, deputy commander.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Ms. Sutherland, it's page 43, line
10 17, it's your question. You asked him from lines 16:
11 [As read] "I simply want to know at this point in the position as
12 commander of the police, you reported directly to the chief of the SJB,
13 did you not."
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: So he was the commander of the Kljuc SJB and then he
16 reported to the chief of that SJB? Was that your question?
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes under the chief, there is another level at
18 which the witness was at but I will ask him to, in fact, give that
19 evidence.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND:
22 Q. Mr. Dzafic, going back to paragraph 6 on page 3, it states there
23 that you were relieved of duty as the commander of the Kljuc SJB. Your
24 position at that time was as commander of the police, was it not, and in
25 that position as commander of police, you reported directly to the chief
Page 19659
1 of the SJB, who you referred to earlier as Mr. Kondic; is that right?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And just a moment ago I read to you the correction that you
4 wished to make to paragraph 24, where it had Kondic appointing
5 Dusan Stojakovic as the deputy commander and it should have read he
6 appointed him as the assistant commander, is that the correction you
7 wanted to make?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you confirm, please, that with those corrections and
10 clarifications the amalgamated statement accurately reflects your
11 evidence?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. If you were asked today about the matters contained in that
14 statement, would you provide the same information to the Trial Chamber
15 and that is even if you would probably not be able to formulate
16 everything in the same words, the essence of your answers would be the
17 same?
18 A. Yes. By all means, the answers, the gist, would be the same
19 regardless of the time that has passed.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, I tender 65 ter 90284, the
21 amalgamated witness statement of Mr. Dzafic.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson?
23 MR. ROBINSON: No objection, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE KWON: That is admitted.
25 THE REGISTRAR: That shall be assigned Exhibit P3488.
Page 19660
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: With Your Honour's leave I'll now read a short
2 summary of the witness's evidence.
3 Mr. Atif Dzafic was born and grew up in the Kljuc municipality.
4 In 1997 the witness joined the police in Kljuc. Between 1978 and 1982,
5 he was deputy commander of police and from 1982 to May 1992, he held the
6 post of commander of the police. After the multi-party elections in
7 1990, he also held the position of acting chief of SJB until a Serb,
8 Vinko Kondic, was appointed to the post of chief of police of the public
9 security station.
10 On 21 May 1992, the witness was relieved of his duty as commander
11 of the police because he refused to sign a loyalty oath to the Serb
12 authorities.
13 The witness describes the SDS takeover of the municipality, the
14 Serb Crisis Staff, the split of the police, the Serb Special Police unit,
15 the deterioration in interethnic relations and the persecution of
16 non-Serbs. He provides evidence of his own arrest and detention at the
17 Nikola Mackic school which is schedule C, 15.2 and the Manjaca camp,
18 schedule C, 1.2. The witness gives detailed descriptions of beatings,
19 forced labour, inadequate nutrition and generally inhumane conditions at
20 both camps.
21 The witness provides information on other detention facilities
22 including the SJB building in Kljuc which is schedule C, 15.1, the
23 witness also provides evidence in relation to incidents at Biljani,
24 schedule A, 7.3 and Velagici, schedule B, 10.1.
25 The witness was released from Manjaca camp on 16 December 1992
Page 19661
1 when he was put on an escorted convoy to Karlovac in Croatia.
2 In 1993, the witness met up with family members in Travnik and
3 returned to Kljuc municipality in 1995 after its liberation. The witness
4 attended exhumations conducted in the Kljuc municipality.
5 That completes the summary of the witness's written evidence.
6 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I have a couple of questions or a few questions for
7 you. If I could have 65 ter number 00262 on the screen, please, and this
8 is, Mr. Registrar, this is document at tab 15 in your binder.
9 Mr. Dzafic, this is a document that you saw the other day, dated
10 28 May 1992, to all SJBs in the region from Stojan Zupljanin at the
11 CSB Banja Luka concerning the dismissal of those employees who did not --
12 A. Security Services Centre.
13 Q. Yes, security services centre regarding the dismissal of those
14 employees who did not sign the solemn declaration. Is that consistent
15 with what you know happened in the SJB in Kljuc? You have testified
16 already in your statement that it happened to you, but what about the
17 other non-Serb police officers?
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The speakers are
19 overlapping.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, Ms. Sutherland and Mr. Dzafic,
21 because of the overlapping, we couldn't hear you. Could you start again
22 your answer, kindly?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Gladly. I can see the dispatch by
24 the Banja Luka Security Services Centre signed by Stojan Zupljanin, the
25 chief and it was sent to all of the police stations in the Banja Luka
Page 19662
1 region. It states that all the employees who did not sign the loyalty
2 will have their employment terminated as of 15 April 1992, which is
3 something that happened to me personally, as well as to other non-Serb
4 staff at the public security station in Kljuc.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. Mr. Dzafic. Your Honour, I tender
6 that document.
7 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted.
8 THE REGISTRAR: This document shall be assigned Exhibit number
9 P3489. Thank you, Your Honours.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could have 65 ter number 00849 and
11 Mr. Registrar, this is at tab 13 in your binder.
12 Q. Mr. Dzafic, this is also a document you saw the other day. It's
13 a War Presidency decision of 21 July 1992 signed by the president,
14 Jovo Banjac, and it states at point 1, all managerial posts, positions
15 where the inflow of information is possible at the protection of socially
16 owned property and all places of importance for the functioning of
17 economic entities may only be filled by staff of Serbian nationality, can
18 be found.
19 Item 2 also refers to all socially owned enterprises,
20 shareholding companies, state institutions, public enterprises and the
21 public security station.
22 You've just advised us about what was happening in the SJB. What
23 do you know about that happening in other public institutions?
24 A. This was happening in all the other institutions, including state
25 and public enterprises, and we mentioned my case at the police station,
Page 19663
1 and this decision publicly talks about when the SDS won over
2 58.8 per cent of the power in the Kljuc municipality, indicating that
3 something similar would happen, and so this is evidence that this was
4 actually practically implemented, and as for disloyal Serbs, I can
5 mention Dusan Petrovic, who was a commander of the TO staff before the
6 elections but was not loyal to the Serbian Republic of
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and that is why later he was not appointed to this
8 post any more.
9 Q. Mr. Dzafic --
10 A. If necessary, I also remember --
11 Q. Continue, please.
12 A. If required, I also recall other leading officials in the
13 municipality who were non-Serbs and who were relieved of duty, and these
14 are Enisa Ducanovic, Hamdija Ducanovic, the president of the Court,
15 Dzemal Botonjic, the Prosecutor, Enisa Ducanovic and so on and so forth.
16 Q. Did your wife also hold a managerial position?
17 A. Yes, yes. I was actually -- when I mentioned my own case I meant
18 myself and my wife who was in the Obnova company in a leadership position
19 and on the same date she was sent to take her vacation on the same day
20 that I was told to go, and she never returned to work again.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzafic. I've finished with that document. If
22 I could have 65 ter number 00873, and this is at tab -- Mr. Registrar,
23 this is at tab 16 in the binder.
24 JUDGE KWON: The previous document will be admitted as --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have something to say.
Page 19664
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This document could have been
3 produced in 1995 when they reentered Prijedor. There is no protocol
4 number and there is to signature. If we go back to the document, you
5 will see that there is no protocol number on the original, and there is
6 no signature. And the stamp was accessible to them.
7 JUDGE KWON: Let us upload that document. 65 ter 849. So you
8 are challenging the authenticity of this document, Mr. Karadzic?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Absolutely, because at the top
10 there is just the marking P501, and that could have been also issued by
11 the presidential cabinet, but anyone could have signed it.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, the witness has testified that
13 what's contained, the contents that are contained in this document, are
14 consistent with his knowledge.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, but we are talking about the authenticity.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: I know that, Your Honour, but in relation to --
17 it's a matter for weight for Your Honours. It doesn't stop the document
18 from being admitted.
19 MR. TIEGER: I would also mention, Mr. President, and
20 Mr. Robinson, I believe, will confirm this, the Defence has tendered
21 innumerable documents with similar deficiencies that otherwise bear
22 indications of authenticity. And I think a selective approach does not
23 serve anyone's interest.
24 JUDGE KWON: But Mr. Karadzic is raising at the moment the
25 possibility of making up of this document, if my understanding is
Page 19665
1 correct. Mr. Robinson?
2 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, we are not accepting the
3 authenticity of this document. I do agree that there are other
4 circumstances where documents which bear stamps and no signatures have
5 been admitted but given that in this municipality the Bosniaks came to
6 power and had access to these stamps, there is some legitimate basis to
7 question the authenticity of this.
8 [Trial Chamber confers]
9 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will mark it for identification until
10 the time we are satisfied as to its provenance or authenticity. Yes, it
11 will be marked for identification as Exhibit P3490.
12 Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND:
14 Q. Sir, looking at the document, if we could go to the handwritten
15 B/C/S pages which is at pages 16 to 24 of the document --
16 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, we will upload 873 on our part as
17 well.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND:
19 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you reviewed this document. Do you recognise the
20 handwriting?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could all unnecessary microphones be switched
22 off, please?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do recognise this
24 handwriting this is Todo Gajic's handwriting. He was inspector at the --
25 of the criminal police at the Kljuc police station, and he regularly
Page 19666
1 visited Manjaca camp.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND:
3 Q. How long had you known Mr. Gajic for?
4 A. I had known Mr. Gajic from the first day when I started working
5 at the police station, from September 1, 1970, up until the last day when
6 I was relieved of duties and basically fired from the police. We --
7 Q. 1970, do you mean 1977?
8 A. My apologies, September 1, 1977 until 21 May 1992.
9 Q. And that document appears to be notes of a meeting in Manjaca
10 camp; is that right?
11 A. Yes, precisely so. And I see then further down my neighbours who
12 were in Manjaca but who were ill on that particular day.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something? The witness
14 is not talking about the document that we see before us on our screen
15 but, rather, about some documents that he has before him. Could we see
16 those documents that he is referring to? And could my learned -- could
17 Ms. Sutherland please show us the documents that the witness is actually
18 looking at and share it with us?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, Mr. Dzafic is looking at the
20 document 00873. It's typewritten and it also has handwriting and there
21 is a translation.
22 JUDGE KWON: So the first part, i.e. the e-court pages, 1 to 15,
23 are typewritten parts and from 16 to 24 are the handwritten part
24 [Overlapping speakers].
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Overlapping speakers] ... are the handwritten
Page 19667
1 pages and that was the handwriting that the witness recognised as being
2 that of Mr. Gajic.
3 JUDGE KWON: From the appearance it seems to be the case. As you
4 can see from the monitor. Let's proceed, Ms. Sutherland. And then court
5 deputy in the field office confirms that as well. Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND:
7 Q. Mr. Dzafic, that is all the questions I have for you. Thank you
8 very much.
9 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender the associated
10 exhibits.
11 JUDGE KWON: Before that we will admit this, 873 that will be
12 Exhibit P3491. I have a few questions in relation to associated
13 exhibits. First one relates to 65 ter number 874. In the transcript or
14 in the statement, the witness confirmed his name, that number 685 is his,
15 but the document does not have that number. It ends at number 67. Could
16 we upload that exhibit, 65 ter number 874? So could you come back to us
17 after checking it?
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, I will do.
19 JUDGE KWON: And 65 ter number 920, which is a drawing of the
20 witness, and 16080 do not have the English translation. I think at least
21 the legend should be translated.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: I will see to that, Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Otherwise, are there any objections in
24 relation to associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?
25 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
Page 19668
1 [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]
2 JUDGE KWON: Then all the others and these ones as well, those
3 untranslated documents will be marked for identification in the meantime,
4 and then I take it 874 will be supplemented later on by the Prosecution.
5 With those caveats, we will admit them all and give a number in due
6 course.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dzafic, you will now be asked by Mr. Karadzic,
9 the accused, in his cross-examination. Please bear in mind that both you
10 and Mr. Karadzic are speaking the same language. Please make sure that
11 you put a pause between -- before you start answering the question.
12 Thank you.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Dzafic. Let us take a look, in view of the
17 fact that you are speaking under oath here, let us take a look at what
18 the truth and the whole truth actually is. In paragraph 4 of your
19 statement, your amalgamated statement, you suggest that you were a police
20 commander and that the SDA asked you to continue in that role, and you
21 are suggesting now, or you suggest there actually, that you were asked to
22 do this because you were an expert; right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. In other words, not because you were a member of that same party
25 and not as a party official?
Page 19669
1 A. Well, let me clarify that a little bit. I had previously been a
2 successful deputy commander, and then, following that, I served as the
3 commander of the police in -- for two terms, although the second term was
4 not completed. After that, the -- after the multi-party elections, SDA
5 representatives asked to see me and then they asked me if I could
6 continue and stay in that post, and I accepted.
7 Q. So as a non-party person; correct?
8 A. Well, I didn't sign any papers to the effect that I would be
9 bound by the SDA. I simply agreed that I would remain in my post as
10 commander of the police station.
11 Q. Were you a member of the SDA?
12 A. No. I don't want to go into the voting now, but I never
13 officially signed any statement or any application in order to become a
14 member of the SDA.
15 Q. Thank you. Could we now have 65 ter 22075, please? Let us see
16 what you said in the Adamovic trial, and if we can have page 8 of that
17 document, in other words document 22075, page 8. The ERN page --
18 JUDGE KWON: It's not listed in your list of papers to be used
19 with this witness. I'm not sure whether the court deputy in the field
20 office has it.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We notified that under the number
22 22074, but today they have actually switched the numbers and assigned it
23 a new number, 22075.
24 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So there we have notified the
Page 19670
1 parties.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's 22074 says that it was the testimony. So
3 court deputy in the field office should -- must have it. Yes.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So now can we have page 8 of this document, yes, we have the
6 right page. Now, please look at this, the Prosecutor Begovic asks you
7 the following:
8 {As read] "I understand that but you said that your party, if
9 I understood it correctly, you talk about a coalition but what party did
10 you belong to?"
11 And you say, "Well, I was a member of the SDA," well, er -- is
12 that correct?
13 A. Mr. Karadzic, it says there that I was a member, but you asked me
14 a moment ago whether I signed any official documents for the SDA, and I
15 can state here that I never did any such thing, but of course it says
16 here that I was a member.
17 Q. I didn't actually ask you about your signature. I only asked you
18 whether you were a member of the SDA. And we have the answer now.
19 Now, tell us, please, do you know when the SDA and when the SDS
20 were established? Do you agree that the SDA was the first party to be
21 established, both at the republic level and in your municipality?
22 A. I can't remember.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 17, you talk about Alija Delimustafic.
24 You say that after the election, he replaced Dusko Zgonjanin, who was a
25 Serb; is that true?
Page 19671
1 A. After the multi-party elections, the Ministry of the Interior, or
2 rather, Alija Delimustafic was elected as the Minister of the Interior.
3 Q. Thank you. But whom did he succeed?
4 A. Well, previously, the secretary of the secretariat or the
5 minister was Dusko Zgonjanin.
6 Q. Well, I'm afraid that too is incorrect, Mr. Dzafic. It was
7 Muhamed Besic, a Muslim; right?
8 A. Well, I really can't recall, believe me.
9 Q. Thank you. And then in paragraph 18, you state that there were
10 security station centres, security service centres in Banja Luka, Zenica,
11 Doboj, Tuzla, Sarajevo, Mostar. Now, would you agree with me that only
12 Banja Luka was a centre in an area that had an absolute Serb majority and
13 Doboj where there was a relative Serb majority, whereas all the other
14 centres were in areas that had a Serbian majority but not in the
15 territorial sense but not a -- but they did not have centres there. Is
16 Bihac, Gorazde, Zenica --
17 JUDGE KWON: Do not overlap, Mr. Karadzic. I don't know from
18 where we missed. There was an answer to certain part of your question
19 but we missed it. Please continue. But on your part, please put a
20 pause.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. My apologies to
22 participants and to Witness Dzafic.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. You said, Witness, that you never gave any thought to that, but
25 you do agree that only Banja Luka had the Serb majority; correct?
Page 19672
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Let me then repeat for the transcript: Bihac, Gorazde, Zenica,
3 Tuzla, Sarajevo, Mostar and Livno had centres but they did not have a
4 Serb majority; correct? Is that correct?
5 A. Well, off the top of my head I really can't say. I never really
6 looked at the ethnic structure within these various security services
7 centres. I knew about the Banja Luka area. I knew that there was a
8 predominantly Serb population there, but as for the other centres
9 I really can't say either way, simply I never looked into that. I was
10 not interested.
11 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 22, you describe that Stojan Zupljanin
12 was appointed or elected after some other candidates actually withdrew
13 their candidatures; correct?
14 A. According to some information that I had, yes.
15 Q. However, do you know that we had to fight a big battle there and
16 that the SDS preferred candidate was a completely different person but he
17 did not work in the police and Zupljanin who was not a member of the SDS
18 was appointed at the proposal of the deputy minister, Zepinic?
19 A. I don't know anything about that.
20 Q. Thank you. But then would you agree that paragraph 22 is
21 incorrect?
22 A. Well, as far as I know, there were two other candidates. They
23 withdrew from running for Banja Luka CSB chief, and they told me that
24 they had been offered this post but that they refused to accept it, but
25 how correct that is, I never checked.
Page 19673
1 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 16, you say that Dusko Petrovic
2 succeeded Jovo Kevac in the Territorial Defence and that after
3 Dusko Petrovic, Bosko Lukic was elected. Was Bosko Lukic a member of the
4 SDS?
5 A. Well, you actually put several questions, Mr. Karadzic, all at
6 once. I don't really know whether Mr. Lukic was a member of the SDS or
7 not. I know that he was a retiree and that he was reactivated after a
8 while, that he was brought back to perform that duty. As for the second
9 question or rather the first, I know that both Dusan Petrovic held this
10 duty of TO Staff Commander, as well as Kevac, and I know very well that
11 after the multi-party election, Dusan Petrovic was not elected to that
12 post.
13 Q. Thank you. But you are now stressing the party membership and
14 you pointed out that Bosko Lukic was nominated by the SDS. So I'm asking
15 you whether Bosko Lukic was appointed to the Territorial Defence post
16 because he was a member of the SDS or because people trusted his
17 abilities, his competence, and in that context, do you know whether he
18 was a member of the SDS or not?
19 A. Well, I just said a moment ago that I don't know specifically
20 about Lukic but according to everything we could see and what was
21 happening with that post I know that Lukic could not have been appointed
22 to that post without having been a member of the party.
23 Q. And you stand by that? You claim that with certainty?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Who was the president of the municipality of Kljuc?
Page 19674
1 A. At what time, what time period are you talking about.
2 Q. Well, after the multi-party election?
3 A. It was Mr. Jovo Banjac.
4 Q. Thank you. And who was the president of the municipality before
5 the multi-party elections?
6 A. I can't remember. I would need some time to reflect on that.
7 Q. Could it have been Jovo Banjac still?
8 A. I think so. I think it was Jovo, but I'm not absolutely certain.
9 Q. In other words, Jovo Banjac was not president of the municipality
10 because he was a member of the SDS but because he had some experience in
11 that job - correct? - so that in his case that too was the case.
12 A. I can't recall.
13 Q. Thank you. Now, when Vinko Kondic was appointed as the chief of
14 the public security station, that was the post that was apportioned to
15 the SDS, he had some difficulties and there were some issues raised, so
16 that his appointment was delayed; correct? You speak about this in
17 paragraph 5.
18 A. Yes. That's correct.
19 Q. Thank you. You said that he had been convicted to a prison term
20 of six months, that he appealed and that the appeal was supported and
21 then only after that he was appointed to that post?
22 A. Well, let me clarify that a bit, Mr. Karadzic. Vinko Kondic was
23 supposed to be appointed together with me. It was delayed by a few
24 months because there was -- there were criminal proceedings underway
25 against Vinko for some irregularities in the company where he worked, of
Page 19675
1 which he was -- with which he was charged. However, the Court decision
2 was not final and after the appeals proceedings where he was acquitted,
3 he was appointed. He was relieved of these accusations and he was
4 appointed.
5 Q. Thank you. And he was appointed as the chief of the public
6 security station?
7 A. Yes. And he had --
8 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat his answer?
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you repeat your answer, after
10 you had said yes, Mr. Dzafic?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you mean my answer to the last
12 question?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Dzafic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, the last, the
15 appointment --
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. May I just intervene? My question was not recorded in the
18 transcript. I said that before he was appointed, you -- you were acting
19 chief of police station and police commander, and you answered
20 affirmatively, you said yes.
21 A. Yes, for a while I held both those posts.
22 Q. Now, when he was nominated, you were left with just one of those
23 functions, the commander of the station; correct?
24 A. Yes, that's correct.
25 Q. Now, if I put it to you, Mr. Dzafic, that this whole matter with
Page 19676
1 the court proceedings were recognised by the Serb side as the well-known
2 framing, system of framing people, in order to interfere with their
3 appointment, what would you answer?
4 A. I have nothing to say to that.
5 Q. Well, thank you. You told me that the president of the court
6 advised you of these things; correct?
7 A. The president of the court and other people who were saying that
8 Vinko's appointment was delayed precisely for these reasons.
9 Q. Thank you. The president of the court was Dzemo Botonjic, whom
10 you mentioned a little earlier, when you said that he was fired; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. In your interview of 1998, document 65 ter 22073, this portion
13 can be found on page 3. And the same is true of the English translation,
14 page 3. And in document 22074, also on page 3, you said -- you state as
15 follows. So can we have document 22074 or 22075, whatever you call it
16 now? Can we pull up that document, please?
17 JUDGE KWON: I take it that the transcript in Adamovic, we do not
18 have the English translation; correct?
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, we do, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Then the e-court has a mistake. It refers to
21 another transcript. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The first document is 22073 on page
23 3. You say, "As I heard from the president of the court,
24 Dzemo Botonjic ...," whereas in this document, 22074, on page 3, you say
25 as follows:
Page 19677
1 [As read] "Well, let me be succinct. I never said in any
2 statement that I had heard this directly from Dzemo. Rather, I heard it
3 from other people that Mr. Botonjic was complaining that there were
4 pressures relating to this case and that this should be take be care of
5 as soon as possible."
6 So did you hear this from the judge, the president of the court,
7 or from someone else? Which of these two versions is correct.
8 A. Well, you see, I remember clearly that the president of the court
9 was Mr. Dzemo Botonjic, that the Prosecutor was Dragan Kojic, and the
10 judge was Enisa Botonjic. In conversations with them, I know that Dzemo,
11 the president, told me on one occasion, and this was unofficial, that
12 they were waiting for the appointment of Mr. Kondic's precisely for this
13 reason, that that's why it was being delayed. I won't repeat it again.
14 Q. He said that to you; right?
15 A. Yes. We were talking in an informal conversation, and that's
16 when he told me that. And there were stories going around in the police,
17 among the leadership, people were saying that we were going to get a new
18 chief, Vinko Kondic.
19 Q. But the Adamovic trial on page 3 you said it was not him who told
20 you that, it was other people?
21 A. Well, my memory is not getting better with time.
22 Q. Well, let me see the ERN number of that.
23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: While we are waiting, sorry to interrupt but
25 page 62, line 2, Mr. Karadzic said, "In your interview of 1998 ...,."
Page 19678
1 I think he meant 2008, did he not?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I apologise. 22073 is the
3 document.
4 Q. Just briefly, Mr. Dzafic --
5 JUDGE KWON: It is not 22075, Mr. Karadzic? You referred to the
6 transcript in Adamovic case.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, maybe I was not
8 quite clear. One document is 22073, that's a statement from 2008.
9 Whereas his testimony is 22074, testimony in the Adamovic trial, and
10 these two testimonies are different. And I would like to find out what
11 is what, but, okay, we got an answer now. May I continue?
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you mentioned Dzemo Botonjic as president of the
15 court. You mentioned another Botonjic as a judge. Who is the other one?
16 A. No. As far as I remember, there was only one Botonjic working at
17 the court. There was also a lady, Enisa Ducanovic, a judge at the time
18 and later she became a Prosecutor.
19 Q. You also mentioned a lady by the surname of Botonjic working at
20 the court. Did such a person exist?
21 A. Not that I remember, Mr. Karadzic. There was no lady by the name
22 of Botonjic working at the court.
23 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 24, you made a correction today saying
24 that Dusan Stojakovic was not your deputy but your assistant. What
25 happened with Dusan Stojakovic, your assistant? What became of him?
Page 19679
1 A. It is true that he was assistant commander, appointed by the
2 chief, Vinko Kondic. Now, this question what became of Stojakovic, I can
3 only answer by explaining this: After my removal from the police on
4 22 May 1992, with my wife who was also removed from her work, and with
5 two children who were attending primary school, and that particular
6 school year was ended prematurely, one or two months earlier than normal,
7 I went to my native village of Sanica, and I stayed there until the day
8 of my arrest, 1 June. As to all the things that happened on 27 May, when
9 my former colleague Dusan Stojakovic, was killed in the neighbourhood of
10 Krasulje, I don't know. There were all kinds of stories and rumours
11 circulating, and the investigation was conducted by the people who were
12 then employed at the police station of Kljuc.
13 Q. But one indisputable fact remains that he was killed in a Muslim
14 neighbourhood?
15 A. He was killed on the road, Pudin Han to Sanski Most, just outside
16 the settlement of Krasulje, somewhere there.
17 Q. And that's one of those settlements that you described as
18 non-Serb?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Thank you. Is it true that your party, just after the elections
21 and after your appointment, put pressure on you to balance out the ethnic
22 composition of the police force?
23 A. There were talks between parties, and I was sent a letter saying
24 that I should balance the ethnic composition of the senior staff in the
25 police, because Kljuc municipality had an area of 800.000 square metres,
Page 19680
1 and a population that is 7.000. There were 42 per cent Muslims and much
2 less Serbs, but that was not reflected among the senior staff in the
3 police, although it all depends on what you define as senior post. Out
4 of nine senior posts, only two were occupied by Muslims, and that's why
5 this letter, this circular, came that the ethnic composition among the
6 senior staff should be balanced, but the chief, Vinko Kondic, did not
7 comply. On the contrary.
8 Q. So even after -- even before the elections, you were both acting
9 chief and commander of the station, and during your tenure, the ethnic
10 composition of the senior staff was not balanced?
11 A. Mr. Karadzic, for a short period, even before the multi-party
12 elections, I was acting chief, but that was not for long. That was just
13 two or three months, because the chief was suspended at the time and
14 I was acting chief very briefly.
15 Q. Which chief was suspended?
16 A. That was president of the court, Rajko Dakic.
17 Q. So you actually inherited this imbalance from the Socialist
18 period, from the previous regime, and your political party asked you to
19 make adjustments?
20 A. They asked Vinko to do that because in my particular position
21 I could not change anything in the personnel composition of the police.
22 Q. You said that in the Adamovic case, 65 ter 22074, page 7, the ERN
23 number is 0623-0511 [as interpreted]. You said the party to which
24 I belonged wanted to balance the ethnic composition also among the senior
25 staff and all the other employees of the station.
Page 19681
1 A. Let me just find it.
2 Q. Isn't that right?
3 A. Generally speaking, yes, although putting it this way, perhaps it
4 should have been phrased differently but, basically, yes.
5 Q. Considering that those were professionals who were employed, you
6 were supposed to dismiss a number of people and hire another number of
7 people?
8 A. You couldn't say that really because, at the police station the
9 commander of the section or the squad, the police, was a Muslim and we
10 were supposed to hire in his place somebody of the same ethnicity but we
11 instead hired a commander of a different ethnic group, Milan Tomic.
12 Q. Thank you. You speak about that in paragraph 25 of your
13 amalgamated statement, which reflects part of your testimony in that
14 case, and you say that this Sejdo Adzimovic was replaced by a Serb by the
15 name of Tomic. Isn't it rather the case that Tomic did not replace him,
16 the other man was retired?
17 A. Adzimovic was retired, yes.
18 Q. So he was not replaced in order to appoint Tomic?
19 A. Well, if you retire, you're not really replaced, so, yes, you're
20 right. I don't know why this word is suddenly so important but I see
21 it's important. Anyway, it's not up to me. It's up to the person who
22 took the statement.
23 Q. But what was the composition of the police station in that local
24 commune?
25 A. You mean in the entire municipality of Kljuc or in the police
Page 19682
1 station.
2 Q. The police station.
3 A. Well, as for the police station, at the police station, sometimes
4 had a staff of only six to eight. Half would be one group, half of the
5 other, but I can't really answer this precisely because personnel changes
6 were frequent. Some people moved to the police station in Kljuc. And
7 you know the ethnic composition of the local commune of Sanica, at least
8 I think you know.
9 Q. It's majority Muslim, but is it true that the majority of the
10 police personnel was also Muslim?
11 A. Sometimes it was 50/50. Sometimes there was one Bosniak more
12 than the number of Serbs. As far as I remember, it was half/half.
13 Q. In paragraph 26, you talk about the changes in the police station
14 in Kljuc, and you say somewhere in line 4 that Kondic had the door to his
15 office closed all the time and you go on to say that he received frequent
16 visits by Veljko Kondic and Jovo Banjac and you enumerate all the Serbs
17 in that paragraph 26, and then you say that he never told you what was
18 discussed at those meetings. You say also that you had -- you saw
19 President Banjac visit Veljko Kondic a number of times. Why is that
20 unusual, Mr. Dzafic? Why is it unusual for the president of the
21 municipality to visit the chief of the police?
22 A. It wouldn't have been unusual if it had happened in our working
23 hours, and if I, as police station commander, had also been invited.
24 Q. But did you all socialise among yourselves over there? Could
25 there have been private encounters?
Page 19683
1 A. Well, I knew Mr. Veljko and Mr. Jovo both privately and from
2 work.
3 Q. What I'm trying to say is that paragraph 26 makes certain
4 implications. For one, that Serbs were seeing each other, that the chief
5 did not inform you of his discussions with these people, and there is
6 another implication, that you were keeping an eye on the Serbs and
7 perhaps they were keeping an eye on you?
8 A. I can say that I wasn't keep an eye on anyone. I wasn't keeping
9 tabs but from all my earlier experience I was able to make a judgement
10 when the chief of the station was justified in talking to the president
11 of the municipality without my knowledge. However, there were certain
12 matters that I should have been informed of, instead of having my deputy
13 attend those meetings and do this work that actually belonged to me.
14 Q. From all of this, do you agree that with the appointment of
15 Vinko Kondic, you lost a more important position of the chief, and
16 remained just commander, and that you were in a rivalry with Kondic?
17 A. Again, there are several questions in one. Let me take them one
18 by one. I was actually relieved when Kondic took over the position of
19 chief, because I didn't have to do two jobs at once any more.
20 Second, I never felt there was any rivalry between me as
21 commander and Mr. Kondic. All I wanted was good co-operation and good
22 work, professional work, in a lawful manner, as I had been taught and
23 trained. Because I was commended and awarded with the highest awards
24 that could be obtained at the Ministry of the Interior for my prior work.
25 Q. In paragraph 29, which is part of your testimony, you say that
Page 19684
1 there had been cases of contradictory orders, from Banja Luka and from
2 Sarajevo, mutually contradictory orders. Did that really happen?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How do you explain that? How did orders come to be
5 contradictory?
6 A. I'll try to explain it in very simple terms. I remember well one
7 dispatch --
8 Q. I thought it was 29. I can check but it could also be 30.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Dzafic.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to give you an example
11 that I remember very clearly, to explain those contradictory orders,
12 dispatches from Banja Luka and dispatches from Sarajevo. Early in April,
13 I don't know exactly when but I was still working, and it was on a night
14 shift, a dispatch came from the Security Services Centre Banja Luka,
15 addressed directly to the chief, asking us to send to Bosanska Krupa a
16 team of I don't know exactly how many policemen to assist them, but the
17 policemen should be exclusively Serbs because they had problems of I
18 don't know what nature, it doesn't matter now, and I just happened to see
19 this dispatch. The operator showed it to me. And that operator also had
20 certain problems with the chief.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 A. Well, later -- I don't know if you want to hear about this.
23 Q. I want to know if the public security station in Kljuc was part
24 of the Security Services Centre in Banja Luka.
25 A. Naturally it was but those dispatches and those orders, I called
Page 19685
1 Sarajevo, by the way, and they were astonished by that dispatch.
2 Q. Well, that was helpful. You say that you fell under the
3 jurisdiction of the security services centre in Banja Luka, and yet you
4 communicated directly with Sarajevo, circumventing your own CSB and your
5 own chief.
6 A. Those were not communications of God knows what importance, but
7 I was just talking to them to see what I'm supposed to do. Why I, as a
8 commander, was left out of the loop? Why wasn't I supposed to know about
9 this dispatch.
10 Q. But you were bypassing the chief, Vinko Kondic, and you also
11 circumvented your CSB in Banja Luka?
12 A. Well, the main command was in Sarajevo, Mr. Karadzic.
13 Q. Command has its own chain, doesn't it?
14 A. Yes. There is a chain of command, but if a lower-level decision
15 is not lawful, is not regular, then I think one must seek a second
16 opinion from the higher command.
17 Q. So we do agree there is a chain of command. Is there also a
18 chain of reporting?
19 A. Of course.
20 Q. Do we agree that this chain should not be broken? You always go
21 to your immediate superior?
22 A. Generally speaking, yes.
23 Q. However, you had these contacts with Sarajevo. To whom did you
24 talk in Sarajevo, circumventing Kondic and Zupljanin?
25 A. Any contacts I had were with the inspector who was in charge of
Page 19686
1 inspection and auditing of the police station in Kljuc, who came once a
2 year for an annual inspection. I don't remember the name of that
3 inspector but on one occasion he -- or, rather, Mr. Avdo Hebib contacted
4 me directly when the refugees from Knin were passing through Kljuc and
5 the dispatch was sent to tell us that we should let this convoy pass
6 through Kljuc.
7 Q. We will come to that. But you have stated that you communicated
8 directly with Mr. Avdo Hebib, who was assistant minister for the police.
9 A. I just told you, yes, not every day but as required.
10 Q. Weren't you breaking the chain of command and the chain of
11 reporting by doing so?
12 A. It all depends on the circumstances I was in.
13 Q. Thank you. Do you remember receiving, on 29 April -- in fact,
14 did you also receive on 12 April an order from Hasan Efendic to start an
15 attack against the JNA and the Bosnian Serbs?
16 A. No. I don't recall any such document, nor do I know
17 Hasan Efendic to this day.
18 Q. Could we briefly show to the witness D400? Towards the end of
19 April, did you receive from your minister a directive, an order, to start
20 a war against the JNA? Could you take a look, to all security services
21 centres, to all public security stations, and to the SUP of Sarajevo.
22 Are you familiar with this document? It's an order dated 29 April 1992,
23 the presidency had accepted this decision of their own
24 Territorial Defence, and it was sent to you through the ministry?
25 A. This is the first time I see it, Mr. Karadzic. I've never seen
Page 19687
1 this before and I don't know what's written in it.
2 Q. Can you see that it says, on the 27th of April, it was adopted.
3 Do you know what was going on in the valley of the Sana river on 24 April
4 and 27 April? Do you know what was going on in Prijedor, in Sanski Most?
5 A. No, I don't remember.
6 Q. Thank you. Is it the break now or has the schedule changed?
7 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you continue for three minutes more?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll be happy to.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. In paragraph 32, you speak about check-points and you say they
11 were set up in the second half or in the autumn of 1991; right?
12 A. If that's what my statement says, then it's correct.
13 Q. Do you agree that you stated there were these check-points at the
14 access -- at the entry point to Kljuc?
15 A. Yes, there were check-points.
16 Q. Is it true that they were manned by joint, mixed police patrols
17 and there were also military policemen and servicemen on these teams?
18 A. In the beginning, there were only professional policemen and
19 reserve policemen, and then the military police and the army joined in.
20 Q. Did this coincide with the outbreak of the war in Croatia?
21 A. Yes. It was around that time.
22 Q. Thank you. The routes of arms smuggling, desertion from the
23 army, the travel of sabotage groups, do they lead through Kljuc as well
24 as other municipalities in Krajina?
25 A. Yes.
Page 19688
1 Q. Thank you. Was there any arms smuggling? Were there deserters
2 and renegades and those elements out of control at that time?
3 A. There were many cases of soldiers returning from the war in
4 Croatia, reservists who were natives of Kljuc, who did not return their
5 weapons, who kept them, and then disturbed law and order and that was a
6 threat to the safety of the citizens and the police had to intervene.
7 Q. That was the police of Kljuc and they were later joined by the
8 military police and army troops to deal with the problem?
9 A. Yes, that was one problem but there were also other problems, and
10 those problems were not dealt with properly at the beginning. The police
11 should have taken weapons away from such people who were shooting around
12 and disturbing peace. Active police would indeed seize those weapons
13 from such people. But after two or three days, Mr. Vinko would return
14 the weapons to such former soldiers or fighters or deserters.
15 Q. Or he would return it to the army, the military police; is that
16 right?
17 A. Yes, to the military police. After a day or two the same weapons
18 would then find -- be found with those members, the same ones from whom
19 it was confiscated.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Break, is it?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Dzafic, we will have a break for an hour
23 and resume at 1.30.
24 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.33 p.m.
25 --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.
Page 19689
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you're an expert on All People's Defence. That is
5 indeed your profession; correct?
6 A. I graduated from the faculty of political sciences, the
7 department for national defence and protection. Now, whether I'm an
8 expert in that, well, I leave that to you.
9 Q. Thank you. In respect of these measures, the surveillance and
10 control, you are competent to actually state whether, in view of the
11 imminent threat of war, these check-points were in fact justifiable, in
12 order to make sure that controls and checks were made to stop illegal
13 trafficking of weapons and so on?
14 A. Well, I was never informed of the existence of the check-points.
15 I learned about the check-points and of the existence of an order to that
16 effect, to establish check-points, in other words, and I only learned of
17 that here as a witness. Now, the law was complied with consistently.
18 Q. Thank you. Now, would you agree with me that the civilian police
19 was not authorised to search and stop military personnel; correct?
20 A. The civilian police did have the right to intervene in matters
21 involving military personnel but then they would have to inform the
22 military police immediately of such incidents.
23 Q. Is it correct that the civilian police can intervene only in the
24 course of the commission of a criminal act? As soon as that criminal act
25 is over, they would have to transfer the case to the military police;
Page 19690
1 correct?
2 A. Well, I'm not sure I understood your question. Would you please
3 repeat it?
4 Q. If the civilian police were to actually intercept a military
5 person in the act of committing a criminal offence, they would be
6 authorised to intervene, but then, outside of that, they would have to
7 refer the case to the military police?
8 A. Well, yes. In the cases of, let's say, traffic accidents and
9 similar matters, they would have that authority.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, would we agree that the police and the military,
11 especially in the imminent threat of war, are part and parcel of an
12 overall system of defence of any given country?
13 A. Well, the police and the military were part of the armed forces
14 of our former common country.
15 Q. They were part of one unique system; correct? One unified
16 system?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Is it true that people wanted, and called for, mixed check-points
19 and for mixed police patrols where the patrols would consist of members
20 of all three ethnic groups?
21 A. Well, yes. And we tried to implement that, and we actually were
22 successful for a while, and that was very effective as a tool, whenever
23 we had these mixed patrols consisting of police officers from each one of
24 these ethnic groups.
25 Q. Thank you. And then at one point in time they ceased to be mixed
Page 19691
1 patrols; correct?
2 A. Well, after certain incidents that occurred, problems arose, and
3 then for a while this system was no longer effective and it ceased
4 altogether.
5 Q. And this happened when police officers of Muslim ethnicity
6 refused to declare their loyalty and implement the laws of
7 Republika Srpska; correct?
8 A. Well, you see, you've put several questions to me. I can say
9 this: On two occasions, at two meetings, we were forced to sign a
10 loyalty oath to the Serb authorities, but we refused to do that. After
11 our second refusal, we were all dismissed and sent home.
12 Q. Well, let's clarify things a bit. When you started working for
13 the police, did you have to take an oath, an oath of office?
14 A. Well, yes, of course, naturally.
15 Q. And then, when Republika Srpska was established, you were offered
16 to do that. Were you forced to sign an oath of loyalty, or were you
17 offered to sign it and continue with your work?
18 A. Well, it was offered to us to sign the loyalty oath, but in the
19 environment that existed at the time, and all the discussions going on
20 and so on, our impression was that it was, in fact, being imposed on us.
21 Q. Well, but let's see this. Did the Serbs have to sign an oath of
22 loyalty?
23 A. Well, yes, of course, the Serbs, too, signed oaths of loyalty.
24 Q. Thank you. And that was one of the conditions for their being
25 able to be employed in the police force; correct?
Page 19692
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Thank you. You were then placed on furlough of a couple of weeks
3 and then you were asked again whether you were willing to sign this oath
4 of loyalty and continue or resume your office?
5 A. Well, the first meeting was held on the 7th of May, and the
6 second meeting was held around the 21st or the 22nd of May. And after
7 this second meeting, we were sent home. We were fired.
8 Q. Thank you. We will revisit this issue.
9 But now let's take a look at paragraph 35 of your statement. You
10 state there that the declaration of independence of Slovenia and Croatia
11 had a negative effect on the quota system where there were differences
12 between --
13 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: They had a negative
14 effect on Kljuc.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. And the consequence was that it would not join the rump
17 Yugoslavia and would go against the Serb wishes to remain within
18 Yugoslavia. Now, can we just clarify the terminology here: Why would
19 Bosnia have to join Yugoslavia when it was already a member of
20 Yugoslavia? That is a contradiction, isn't it?
21 A. Well, I don't have an answer to that question.
22 Q. Thank you. But, legally, this is relevant. Now, you say that
23 the position of the Bosnian Presidency was not to join the rump
24 Yugoslavia. However, legally speaking, Bosnia was already part of
25 Yugoslavia, and it wasn't necessary for it to join, and that was not a
Page 19693
1 request or a call for Bosnia to join rump Yugoslavia but, rather, to
2 leave it; isn't that correct?
3 A. Well, it's a question of terminology.
4 Q. Well, in that case, I believe we should leave in this paragraph
5 the word "to remain." So the position of the Bosnian Presidency was that
6 they refused to remain in the rump Yugoslavia rather than not to join the
7 rump Yugoslavia; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. In other words, the Bosnian Presidency was calling
10 for the -- an amendment to the constitution or, rather, the change in the
11 constitutional position of Bosnia within Yugoslavia?
12 A. Well, for me, that's high-level politics. Don't ask me about
13 that. You're asking about the Presidency's decision. Don't. I don't
14 know anything about that, believe me. At the time when I was employed,
15 I never thought about high-level politics, even at the time when I was in
16 this position and let alone now. So, please, would you refrain from
17 these questions.
18 Q. Well, thank you, Mr. Dzafic. I would gladly do so; however, your
19 paragraph 35 actually introduces that topic. So I would like to explore
20 whether --
21 JUDGE KWON: Does it make a very big difference whether or not
22 the witness used the words "join" or "remain"? I would like you to come
23 to the real issues. Your time is limited.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, then, would you please
25 address this with the Prosecutor because they should not include
Page 19694
1 irrelevant issues in an exhibit of theirs, because if it's irrelevant or
2 insignificant, why did it find its place in paragraph 35?
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Now, in paragraph 36, Witness, you talk about rumours and stories
5 going around about Serbs being armed and that you yourself did not see
6 that for yourself but you heard of it from some police officers; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you start an investigation into that issue?
9 A. No. Because in those circumstances it was impossible to launch
10 an investigation into such a thing.
11 Q. Was it impossible to launch an investigation perhaps because the
12 JNA was, in fact, establishing its reserve units on the ground?
13 A. Well, I don't think -- or, rather, I think it was impossible to
14 launch an investigation because the outcome would have been negative
15 anyway because no one, no civilians in the area where this was going on,
16 was willing to talk about this.
17 Q. Thank you. But you say that there were helicopters involved,
18 that these young men went to Croatia in an organised manner to take part
19 in combat there. Isn't that something that is reminiscent of reserve
20 units in the JNA and which are on stand-by and once they're called up
21 they would be deployed? Isn't that the case?
22 A. Well, let's put it that way, yeah. Maybe you could say so.
23 Q. Thank you. Now, in the same paragraph, you say that occasionally
24 police officers of Serb nationality went to Knin for training, but did
25 you know that the SDA had long before that sent Muslims for training to
Page 19695
1 the Croatian MUP and ZNG long before that?
2 A. Well, this is a two-pronged question. As for the first part, it
3 is correct that people were sent from Kljuc without my having any
4 knowledge of it, as the police commander. People were sent for police
5 training to Knin, and these were -- many of these people had police
6 records, were criminals. I know of that for sure.
7 Now, as for the other part of the question, whether the police
8 was sent for training to Croatia, police officers of Muslim ethnicity,
9 I put it to you that there were no such cases in Kljuc, nor do I know of
10 any such cases, nor -- but there were some cases in other municipalities
11 perhaps.
12 Q. Thank you. Are you trying to say that police cadets are
13 criminals?
14 A. No. Mr. Karadzic, in order for a person to be admitted as a
15 police cadet, they would have to be checked. There would have to be a
16 background check done. And these ten or so police officers who had been
17 sent to Knin for training, they were not cadets. They were grown men.
18 They were sent from various companies and work organisations to be
19 trained in Knin.
20 [No interpretation]
21 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's
22 answer.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did the Muslims apply for this and then were denied?
25 A. Well, as far as I know, or, in any case, I didn't know anything
Page 19696
1 of any lists or their being sent for training. I only learnt about it
2 when they started coming home for weekends, over the weekend, to visit
3 their families. I did not send any police officers of Muslim ethnicity
4 to any courses, so I don't have information about that.
5 Q. Thank you. Now, in paragraph 36 you talk about police cadets and
6 that they applied voluntarily and that Muslims did not apply or report.
7 Now, do you know whether there was a case that a Muslim person applied to
8 be sent to Knin and was refused?
9 A. I don't have any information to that effect.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, is it correct that you sent mostly Muslims to
11 Vrace in Sarajevo for training?
12 A. There was a police academy at Vrace, and a select group of cadets
13 from Kljuc municipality was sent to that academy. Now, whether they were
14 predominantly Muslim or of other ethnicity, I don't know. Now, had they
15 been Muslims predominantly, the ethnic break-up -- the ethnic composition
16 would not be as it was on the 21st of April when no Serbs were fired.
17 Q. Now, do you know what the ethnic composition of the reserve
18 police force was?
19 A. I don't.
20 Q. Now, you discussed the arming of Serbs, but did you know anything
21 about the arming of Muslims at the time?
22 A. Well, the arming of either group was illegal. It was difficult
23 to obtain any information about either group, and in any case such
24 information would not reach me, but there was -- weapons were distributed
25 to non-Bosniak villages.
Page 19697
1 Q. Thank you. Now, did you know - and I believe that you talked
2 about this - did you know that there was the establishment of two
3 municipalities of Kljuc were -- was underway?
4 A. I don't know anything about the division of the territory of the
5 municipality of Kljuc. There were stories and gossip going around, but
6 there was no division for as long as I was in Kljuc, at least.
7 Q. Was the municipality of Bosnian Kljuc ever declared as such, as
8 well as the Territorial Defence of Bosnian Kljuc?
9 A. I learned later that Omer Filipovic was appointed commander of
10 the Territorial Defence of Kljuc. I did not have an occasion to see
11 anything. Later on, in the camp, after I was arrested, I learned all
12 that. I don't know what territory was Serb and what territory was
13 Muslim. I didn't know it then. I did not have an occasion to see that
14 document. I was not even aware of any such document.
15 Q. Thank you. However, is that the same Omer Filipovic who was the
16 vice-president of the joint assembly?
17 A. Yes. That's the same person.
18 Q. You were number one man in the police from the Muslim ethnic
19 group. Were you duty-bound to be a member of the staff of the
20 Territorial Defence?
21 A. Nobody ever asked me to join. Nobody ever told me anything about
22 that staff, the staff of the Territorial Defence.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. Go ahead.
25 Q. Can we now look at D1730. That's a document that has already
Page 19698
1 been admitted. I would like to jog your memory and I would like you to
2 tell me whether you know the people referred to in the document. D1730.
3 Do you see the document? It's an Official Note.
4 A. I'm reading the document.
5 Q. Do you know these people, Omer Filipovic, Amir Avdic,
6 Nevzat Djeric, and so on and so forth, the commanders?
7 A. I am looking at the document now. I knew Mr. Filipovic. I knew
8 Amir Avdic less. I didn't know Djeric at all. As for Salih Salihovic,
9 I didn't know him. I knew another Salihovic, not this one. I didn't
10 know of the existence of the staff of the so-called Bosanski Kljuc or
11 Bosnian Kljuc.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you know that before the new year the Muslim
13 municipality of Bosanski Kljuc was declared?
14 A. No, I didn't know that.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 65 ter 7842 --
17 or, rather, 17842. 17842.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Did you know Esad Bender?
20 A. The first time I heard of Esad Bender, and I saw him, was at
21 Manjaca when he was killed. That was at the Manjaca camp in number 1
22 barn.
23 Q. Could you please look at this document. He says in here that he
24 was not Omer and Mohamed Filipovic's body guard, that it was his brother.
25 And in the third paragraph he speaks about the purchase of weapons. And
Page 19699
1 he says that it was done upon the recommendation of Crisis Staffs. Do
2 you remember that every Muslim local commune had its own Crisis Staff?
3 A. As far as I know, Mr. Karadzic, where I was moving around, where
4 I stayed, as far as I know, there were no Crisis Staffs. There may have
5 been some groups that looked after the safety of non-Serbian settlements
6 and people. That's possible. And as for the staffs and their
7 functioning, I didn't know anything about that.
8 Q. Thank you. In the second paragraph, could you look at what it
9 says. There is reference to the purchase of weapons even as far as
10 Switzerland. It says here that Asim Egrlic issued certificates or
11 documents on behalf of the party and then the weapons would be purchased.
12 Is that the same Asim Egrlic who was the president of the joint
13 Executive Board of the municipality?
14 A. Well, look, again, this is a multi-pronged question. I don't
15 know what Asim Egrlic did, but I know that after the election he did
16 discharge those duties.
17 Q. Thank you. At the end do you see where it says that Omer was
18 told that they had captured seven soldiers and that four of them were
19 killed? That's the last sentence on this page.
20 A. Look, I've never seen this document before. It would be wrong
21 for me to give you my views of it or to discuss it. There is no
22 signature, there is no stamp. This was compiled by an authorised
23 official. This is an operative document which may be accurate or not, so
24 it would be wrong for me to provide any comments upon this document.
25 I wouldn't do that.
Page 19700
1 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the following page. He mentions the
2 same names that are mentioned in your statement when you spoke about the
3 arrest and the political life in your municipality. And even your name
4 is mentioned here in the third paragraph, perhaps the 15th line from the
5 bottom of the page.
6 In the second paragraph, it says that Esad thinks and according
7 to Mohamed and Omer told him that the agreement between the Muslims and
8 the Serbs would have been signed but that Alija and rightists did not
9 want that? Did you know that the MBO cooperated with us in order to sign
10 the historical agreements between the Serbs and the Muslims? Did you
11 know that?
12 A. No, I didn't hear any such thing.
13 Q. Well, that was in July and August, and the whole of the state of
14 Bosnia reverberated with the talks about that agreement. How come you
15 didn't hear anything about that in the media?
16 A. I don't remember.
17 Q. Okay. Let's go on. Let's see how he describes the Crisis Staff
18 that existed in the premises -- or, rather, it is known that once he
19 dropped by the SDA and found Omer Filipovic, Muhamed, Atif Dzafic, the
20 former commander, Asim Egrlic, Hamdija Ducanovic, Omer's wife Merima,
21 Fikret Balagic, and so on and so forth, many members of the Crisis Staff
22 among them. Do you see that?
23 A. Yes, I can see that. I can see my name. But this is not
24 correct. At that time I did not attend any such meeting. I'm telling
25 you now this is the signature of an authorised official, an authorised
Page 19701
1 official whose signature is illegible. This is just the result of some
2 checks from the field which can be accurate or not. We can discuss that.
3 But as for me attending any such meeting, I can tell you that I didn't.
4 You said that it was a Crisis Staff, but I really don't know. I've never
5 seen this before, and I'm testifying truthfully, under oath.
6 Q. Thank you. I'm not --
7 A. Let me just tell you this, and I hope you will agree with me: If
8 this were correct and accurate, if this were accurate and if my name was
9 correctly put here, I would not have returned alive from Manjaca,
10 Mr. Karadzic, and we would not have an occasion to talk today. And
11 I claim this with full responsibility. If anything could have been
12 pinned to my name, if there had been a document pinning some blame on me,
13 I would not have returned alive from Manjaca. I am the only police
14 commander who survived Manjaca and returned from Manjaca alive.
15 Q. I'm glad to hear that. Thank you. However, the Serbs knew that
16 about you on the 21st of June while you were at Manjaca. And let's go on
17 reading. It says at that meeting there were discussions and a decision
18 was reached that the headquarters of the Muslim --
19 JUDGE KWON: We set a time -- amount of time for your
20 cross-examination. That's why I let you continue. But having heard from
21 the witness that he doesn't know anything about this, what's the point of
22 continuing to put questions in relation to document? It's totally a
23 waste of time, Mr. Karadzic.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the last
25 sentence states that he was earmarked as the commander of the Muslim
Page 19702
1 police station. How come he didn't know anything about that? I will
2 accept it if he says he didn't. But this is very important for his
3 credibility and for painting the overall picture of the situation in
4 Kljuc.
5 Q. Did you know that you were earmarked as the commander of the
6 Muslim police station? That's the last sentence in this document.
7 A. Mr. Karadzic, I didn't know. Let's be very clear, very specific:
8 I didn't know that I was earmarked for any such position. If I had known
9 this and, I repeat, if anybody else had known that, I would not have left
10 Manjaca alive. There's no chance in hell that I would have left Manjaca
11 alive if anybody had had a discussion to that effect with me and if I had
12 accepted to be the police chief.
13 Q. I'm denying this, Witness. The Serbs knew it on the 21st, and
14 you still returned alive. This statement was taken on the
15 21st of June, 1992. And you were within their reach but they did not
16 touch you. They didn't do anything to you; right?
17 A. That's again the same question.
18 Q. Very well. Let's look at 1D4281.
19 Did you believe the Ministry of the Interior of
20 Bosnia-Herzegovina, not the Republika Srpska, but Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 A. What do you mean when you say "believe"? I worked for them.
22 I joined the Ministry of the Interior in Sarajevo, and I thought, I
23 believed, that if anything happened, that they would be the ones who
24 would discharge me of my duties.
25 Q. Thank you. Look at the document issued by the Ministry of the
Page 19703
1 Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, State Security Service in Tuzla. They
2 received information from Omer Veladzic, who said that he had received
3 400 rifles from the Croatian government, in June 1991, in Bosanska
4 Dubica, which had a 70 per cent Serbian majority. Junuz Bosic received
5 400 rifles from Croatia, right, isn't that what it says here? And then
6 it says something about Kljuc further a bit down. He says that the
7 rifles were sold to Muslims in Kljuc at 800 German marks apiece and that
8 this man made 320.000 German marks, and this can be confirmed by
9 Smajil Draganovic from Kljuc and Rasim Kulenovic from Bosanska Dubica.
10 Did you know that in your municipality Muslims were purchasing rifles at
11 800 German marks each?
12 A. When it comes to selling weapons and arming of Muslims in Kljuc,
13 I didn't have any information to that effect. And this document was
14 issued in September 1993. At that time, around 500 Muslims remained in
15 the territory of Kljuc, no more than that, Mr. Karadzic.
16 Q. Well, that --
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
18 MR. TIEGER: I don't know how many permutations we've been
19 through with this, but the question Dr. Karadzic posed at the end of the
20 course is permissible, but the Court has admonished him repeatedly about
21 the use of such documents and we spent time hearing through his
22 recitation of the document which the Court has encouraged him -- of a
23 document of the type the Court has encouraged him not to use. It's quite
24 a continually pointless exercise.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I disagree. I'm not tendering
Page 19704
1 this. But the witness --
2 JUDGE KWON: No --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I respond?
4 JUDGE KWON: Reading out documents which will not be admitted is
5 of no point, Mr. Karadzic, at all.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to confront the
7 witness with the fact that right before his nose, where he was the
8 commander of the police, weapons were --
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you remember the conversation between
10 the Chamber -- well, not conversation, but debate between Chamber and
11 Mr. Robinson. You should put your question first. And if witness
12 denies, you can put some certain documents to a certain extent. Reading
13 out documents which are not admitted without doubt is waste of time. You
14 put your case -- question, or put your case to the witness. Even if your
15 reading is to be reflected in the transcript, that means nothing.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I
17 believe that I did that. I asked the witness about the arming of Muslims
18 and he said that he didn't know anything about that. I believe that in
19 his position he should have known about that. And now we have a Muslim
20 source confirming that to have been the fact. But I'll move on.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise. Just one sentence, if
22 I may. Mr. Karadzic, you see, this was sent from the State Security
23 Service in Tuzla on the 17th of September, 1993. At that time, I really
24 don't know where I was. That was after Manjaca and after everything
25 else. I was released from Manjaca and so on and so forth.
Page 19705
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Thank you. However, Mr. Dzafic, this person speaks about the
3 events that had taken place in 1991. Croatia sent weapons to Dubica and
4 then the weapons were sold in Kljuc. This is what the document is about.
5 A. Let me just say this: I wasn't privy to that information. As to
6 whether such things were happening, whether the allegations are correct,
7 this should be checked.
8 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, as a person who's familiar with the
9 Law on All People's Defence, is desertion a crime in our midst as
10 everywhere else in the world?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Sabotaging mobilisation, is that a crime?
13 A. Well, you see, now you are -- under what conditions? What? In
14 principle, desertion is a crime. In principle. But under what
15 conditions, for what reasons? I wouldn't go into that. This is rather a
16 political matter, I would say.
17 Q. Thank you. And sabotaging a mobilisation drive, is that a crime?
18 A. As far as I can remember, it was, it is, yes.
19 Q. Thank you. Let us see what you say in paragraph 38. You mention
20 Mr. Izetbegovic, who anecdotally recommended that Muslims should not
21 respond to mobilisation calls. He himself said that he would not
22 encourage his own son to respond. The entire paragraph deals with the
23 fact that the Muslim population did not respond to mobilisation calls.
24 Is that correct?
25 A. Listen, I was not involved in any mobilisations, and you have
Page 19706
1 just paraphrased something that I heard on TV, in the media. I heard
2 that as something that Mr. Izetbegovic had stated, and I can't comment on
3 that.
4 Q. However, you provided this statement, and you say that only a
5 few -- or, rather, very few Muslims responded. That's in your
6 paragraph 38. And it becomes clear from that paragraph that Muslims did
7 not respond to call-ups and that they were inspired to do so by
8 Mr. Izetbegovic; right?
9 A. When I was giving that statement, I said clearly that a certain
10 number of people enlisted. When they got to their units and received
11 assignments, that's when they deserted. And then the news spread across
12 Kljuc municipalities and other people were discouraged from responding to
13 mobilisation call-ups.
14 Q. Then in paragraph 40 you called those soldiers Serb soldiers. Is
15 it the case that in end 1991 those were Serb soldiers, or were they,
16 rather, soldiers of the JNA and they were Serb only because Croats and
17 Muslims failed to respond to call-ups?
18 A. I don't have that statement before me. I cannot comment. There
19 are many issues at stake and many questions in one.
20 Q. Paragraph 40.
21 A. Repeat your question, please.
22 Q. You say, towards the end of 1991, when Serb soldiers were
23 returning from the war in Croatia and so on and so forth. I want to know
24 what you understand by the term "Serb soldiers."
25 A. What is implied here under that term are reservists who had
Page 19707
1 responded to the mobilisation call-up, who enlisted to go to war in
2 Croatia.
3 Q. But the army is not the Serbian army, it's the JNA, isn't it?
4 A. They wore the old insignia of the former JNA army at that time,
5 in that period.
6 Q. Then you said in the same paragraph that Radio Kljuc broadcast in
7 a biassed manner, in favour of Serbs and preserving Yugoslavia and
8 against secession; right?
9 A. I know Radio Kljuc was active. Now, as to your specific
10 question, all I have is the English version. I can't understand it.
11 Q. But you have signed this statement, haven't you?
12 A. Of course I did.
13 Q. In this statement you also say that Serbs dug up their mortal
14 remains of dead Serbs outside churches and reburied them. I have to make
15 this clear to the Trial Chamber. Are Serbs crazy to dig up bones from
16 one grave and rebury them in another or was it the case that Serbs were
17 recovering for the first time the mortal remains of dead Serbs from
18 various pits and mass graves and buried them in proper graves? Which is
19 the case?
20 A. I did not look into that problem in any detail, but generally
21 speaking there were cases when those bones were dug up and Serbdom was
22 celebrated, and that increased tensions in Kljuc. That only deteriorated
23 the general situation.
24 Q. Is it the case that mortal remains were recovered from pits and
25 mass graves where they were initially put by the Ustasha and buried in
Page 19708
1 proper graves, or was it the case that Serbs were taking bones out of one
2 grave and buried them in another?
3 A. Well, I don't know much about it. But following simple logic,
4 I suppose they were recovered to be properly buried.
5 Q. On the editorial programming board of Radio Kljuc, were there any
6 Muslims employed, including Omer Filipovic?
7 A. Omer Filipovic was a teacher of history and the history of
8 language at the secondary school. I don't know if he was involved in
9 Radio Kljuc. Maybe he was providing some news items for a while, but I
10 don't think he was employed there.
11 Q. Well, the programming board does not consist necessarily of
12 full-time staff. Those could be prominent citizens from the town.
13 A. I don't think -- I don't remember he was in the programming
14 board.
15 Q. But he often spoke on Radio Kljuc.
16 A. I don't know whether he was there often or not, but he was
17 occasionally a guest in various programmes.
18 Q. In paragraph 42, you speak of the murder of Senad Dervisevic, a
19 Muslim in his 20s, who was killed by gunfire from an automatic rifle, and
20 you say that it had a significant impact on interethnic relations.
21 A. Again, there are two or three questions in one. This murder did
22 happen, the killing of Senad Dervisevic, and I, as police commander,
23 attended the on-site investigation, and it is true that this reservist
24 Boro Grujic killed him with an automatic rifle. The police of Kljuc
25 started the on-site investigation and then it was taken over by
Page 19709
1 CSB Banja Luka. I don't know how it ended, but I know that interethnic
2 relations had already been disturbed, and this killing occurred suddenly.
3 It had all started with a conversation on the high streets. This man was
4 a civilian and the soldier who killed him was a reservist.
5 Q. They had a quarrel, this reservist of the JNA killed him, you
6 attended the on-site investigation which was then handed over to the
7 army, but after the war the man was tried and convicted?
8 A. Yes. I learned later, after the war, that his trial was taken up
9 again.
10 Q. You mentioned the murder of Admir Selmanovic in paragraph 73.
11 And because it features in your statement, I suppose it has some impact
12 on interethnic relations.
13 A. At the time, it had.
14 Q. This investigation was headed by a Muslim, Muharem Muheljic?
15 A. First of all, it was an inspector who first came to the site. We
16 have already discussed this and agreed that serious crimes were taken
17 over by the CSB Banja Luka, and they took over this case as well.
18 Q. But in this paragraph, in line 6 and 7, you say that the Muslim
19 inspector from Kljuc, Muharem Muheljic, led the investigation, and after
20 the initial investigation nothing happened, no suspects were found.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. And nothing was done.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me for interrupting, Your Honour, but
25 Mr. Karadzic said at paragraph 73. It's 43.
Page 19710
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I must have enunciated poorly.
3 I thought I said 43.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Please continue, Mr. Dzafic. You said the investigation was not
6 completed and no suspects were found. But now you have different
7 information.
8 A. I don't have any different information, but I stand behind what
9 I said earlier, that the investigation was continued by the
10 CSB Banja Luka, all the forensic analysis and expertise of weapons,
11 fingerprints, et cetera. I don't know why it says here that this
12 Muhamed Muheljic conducted it. He was the only -- he was the one who
13 came first to the site, but it was taken over later by CSB Banja Luka.
14 Q. How about this paragraph 43, is it correct in its entirety or are
15 there other corrections to make?
16 A. Well, I'm looking at it in English. I don't understand all of
17 it, but the point is that this Selmanovic man was killed with an
18 automatic weapon, the police in Kljuc was informed first, the on-site
19 investigation began, and early the next morning it was taken over by the
20 CSB Banja Luka. And further investigation led to nothing.
21 Q. But if we asked the Trial Chamber now, they would be convinced,
22 I'm sure, that this killing is considered to have been committed by the
23 Serbs. But I will read to you from the --
24 [In English] "The Muslim inspector from Kljuc, Muharem Muheljic,
25 conducted the investigations. After this brief investigation, there was
Page 19711
1 no further investigation and no one was ever arrested. There was never a
2 suspect arrested. The investigation was not thorough, even though there
3 were leads."
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And, now, could we call up
5 65 ter 890.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Who was a suspect in this case, although you say there were no
8 suspects?
9 A. I don't remember such details, really. Although I would very
10 much wish to be of assistance, I can't. It was a long time ago, after
11 all.
12 Q. As a policeman, do you know how many murder cases are generally
13 solved by good police forces throughout the world? What is the
14 percentage?
15 A. Anything beyond 35, 40 per cent, or up to 50 per cent, is
16 considered to be good in European countries.
17 Q. Please look at this document from the Ministry of the Interior.
18 Public security station Kljuc. It says serious crimes committed by
19 unidentified perpetrators, and the first paragraph refers to the killing
20 of Admir Selmanovic in a place called Sanica on 27 April 1992, killed by
21 gunfire, six entry and exit wounds on the body, motive unknown. On
22 suspicion that they have committed the crime, Mehmed Karadzic and
23 Fahim Alibegovic were remanded in custody after three days, but, for lack
24 of evidence, the aforementioned were released after this term.
25 Is it normally the case that when more evidence is collected, the
Page 19712
1 case can be taken up again?
2 A. This was very professionally phrased, which does not mean that
3 this Mehmed Karadzic and Alibegovic really committed the murder. But
4 this paragraph was really professionally phrased.
5 Q. Well, they were your disciples, so they must have phrased it
6 professionally. Just tell me: Are these Karadzic and Alibegovic
7 Muslims?
8 A. You know, this surname Karadzic is so common. I have a nephew by
9 the surname Karadzic. And there was a chief in Jajce, Midhat Karadzic.
10 Q. But do we agree that these suspects are both Muslims?
11 A. Yes, those suspects were Muslims. But look at when this was
12 written, 23rd November 1992, when it was all mono-ethnic.
13 Q. But look at this, sir. This is a response to a query from the
14 ministry, from the centre in Banja Luka, a query concerning serious
15 crimes between 1st January and 20th November.
16 A. I agree. I agree. That's correct. It's an overview, a survey.
17 But it doesn't mean that it hasn't been doctored, cooked.
18 Q. Well, they released these men for lack of evidence. Why would it
19 be doctored?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said "all right" and it
21 hasn't been recorded. Can this be admitted?
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Dzafic, did you want to say something?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I said "all right," it was
24 just something that, you know, came out at the end of this exchange, but
25 I said the only thing I had to say, namely that the text was written by a
Page 19713
1 professional policeman.
2 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted.
3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1744. Thank you, Your Honours.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now take a quick look at
5 D1733. D1733.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. And I believe that at the time you were still commander of this
8 station. Here we see a record of this on-site investigation, and I would
9 just like you to confirm for us whether these people were your employees.
10 Now, please take a look at this. On the 28th, in other words on the next
11 day, an on-site investigation was conducted, the victim was
12 Admir Selmanovic, and this investigation was conducted by --
13 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the name of the
14 person who conducted the investigation.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, could you please confirm for us that under number 3 we see
17 the name of a Muslim, Muharem Muheljic and under number 5 we have another
18 Muslim, Mirsad Hasanagic?
19 A. I don't see the document. I don't have the document before me.
20 Q. You do. It's on the screen.
21 A. I don't. I have nothing.
22 JUDGE KWON: It's 1D4289, which is one of the listed documents.
23 It's a minute of on-site investigation.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. If it can help, I will read it for you. The investigation was
Page 19714
1 conducted by Botonjic, Dzemal, an investigating judge.
2 JUDGE KWON: This is a document already admitted. Let him read
3 it and put your question briefly.
4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. The date on this document is the 28th of April and at the time
7 you were still commander; correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you. Can you confirm that you know that this person,
10 Dzemal Botonjic actually went out on site and conducted an on-site
11 investigation and that he was a Muslim?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Thank you. Do we see under number 3 the name of
14 Muhamir [as interpreted] Muheljic who was also a Muslim?
15 A. Yes, and he's a forensic technician.
16 Q. And -- thank you -- and under number 5 we have the name of
17 Mirsad Hasanagic, also a Muslim; correct?
18 A. Well, he should be, judging by his first and last name. But he
19 was a reserve police officer.
20 Q. Thank you. We've already admitted this document. But it shows
21 that the investigation was conducted at the time, and there is a
22 description of what was done, and you confirm this; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. So, Mr. Dzafic, can we agree on the following: This
25 was not attributed to Serbs, there was no cover-up, and there was an
Page 19715
1 ethnically mixed team of investigators who went on site; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Thank you. Let's move on.
4 Please take a look at paragraph 44, where I'm a bit confused
5 because you say that in February 1992 a company of reservists of the
6 Serbian JNA was stationed at -- on the premises of the Sip company in
7 Kljuc. Now, how are we to understand the Serbian JNA, that those are
8 your words, is that an error? because it was the JNA.
9 A. Well, it says here that this was a work unit in
10 Sipa [phoen] Kljuc. The premises of that plant were some 15 kilometres
11 away from Kljuc. Now, in that area there was a formation unit. Now,
12 whether it was a company or a battalion-strong unit, I don't know, but
13 they were stationed there for a while and exercised, and they had meals
14 at the Laniste work organisation. They had uniforms of the former JNA,
15 but whether they were JNA members or reserve members, I don't know. But
16 in any case, the incident mentioned here involved a reservist.
17 Q. Thank you. I just needed to clarify the adjective used there,
18 "Serbian JNA." Now, do you recall that among the five JNA soldiers who
19 were killed toward the end of May in Kljuc there were two Yugoslav
20 Albanians who were serving the army at the time?
21 A. I've already told you, and I will repeat it: When this incident
22 occurred in Kljuc, there was a column of JNA members. This was on the
23 27th of May. I was in Sanica at the time. And as I learned later, three
24 soldiers succumbed to the injuries, whereas five were wounded. I don't
25 know the ethnic composition of those soldiers. I don't know, nor did
Page 19716
1 I have occasion to hear, anything about it or see anything that would
2 show it.
3 Q. Okay. But let's just agree on what you've said here. Would you
4 withdraw the "Serbian" from the "Serbian JNA" phrase that you used and
5 leave it at just "JNA"?
6 A. Well, I've been trying to recall the events of the time and in
7 any case my conclusion is that this incident involved reservists of the
8 army. I don't know from which unit, whether it was a company or a
9 battalion, but they were from other municipalities, not from the Kljuc
10 municipality.
11 Q. But they were a JNA unit; right?
12 A. Well, I really don't know. At this point in time it's hard to
13 judge, and I can't say either way. I don't want to err.
14 Q. Thank you. But had it been anything other than the JNA, wouldn't
15 the whole world have resonated of this? Because, remember, what other
16 army could it have been other than the JNA? What other --
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I would like you to proceed. What
18 significance would it have in terms of your indictment? Come to the
19 issues.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will, Your Excellency, but this
21 long paragraph, 44, is not there by error, and it implies that there was
22 a Serbian army and they -- that their conduct was as described here. And
23 I would appreciate it if your comments were also addressed to the
24 Prosecution, not just to the Defence.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's worth commenting that in the future, in
Page 19717
1 compiling the amalgamated statement, the Prosecution should try to not --
2 try not to contain peripheral issues, but that's a separate issue.
3 You have less than 25 minutes to conclude.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I have only been
5 able to deal with less than 50 paragraphs. There are 140 here. How do
6 you expect me to complete my examination?
7 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber allowed you to have two and a half hours
8 with this witness. It is for you how to spend that time allotted to you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it's precisely -- that's
10 precisely what the issue is. There are so many peripheral issues. And
11 had this statement been more focused, then I wouldn't have had this
12 problem. But I will try to skip over certain matters. But I would just
13 like to say for the record that whatever I do skip, it should not be
14 considered that I did not challenge it.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, Mr. Dzafic, please take a look at paragraphs 46 and 47.
17 I won't read them. But this is one of those examples where you have
18 these contradictory orders. Avdo Hebib reported to you that from Slunj
19 in Croatia and other areas where there were combat operations under way
20 there would be a long column of civilians coming through Kljuc and that
21 they should be allowed to move on to Central Bosnia. Now, you received
22 this information, didn't you, but your boss, Vinko Kondic, considered
23 that those people should not be allowed through without any checks, and
24 he actually kept back some 60 or 70 able-bodied men and rounded them up
25 and sent them to Manjaca?
Page 19718
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Now, would you agree with me that with this -- this whole --
3 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat his question,
4 it was unclear.
5 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat your last question.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Do you agree that in this particular case people were coming from
8 areas where there were combat operations under way, that among them there
9 may have been some Croatian fighters, and that Avdo Hebib actually
10 bypassed both Banja Luka and the second man in Banja Luka where he
11 reported that this column should be allowed through. Now, according to
12 you, was this a highly unusual occurrence, and was this irregular, in
13 fact?
14 A. Well, in principle, yes. But under ordinary circumstances, I
15 don't know.
16 Q. Thank you. Now, here we see paragraph 48, where the removal of
17 weapons belonging to Territorial Defence is being discussed. And you say
18 that in late 1991 and early 1992 the weapons of the TO were removed from
19 Kljuc to the Kula municipality, and the Muslims protested because they
20 believed that those weapons were going to be sent to Kupres to be used in
21 combat there; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Could you tell the Trial Chamber, in early April 1992, what
24 fighting, and against whom, was underway at Kupres?
25 A. I can't really recall these combat operations in Kupres in the
Page 19719
1 early days.
2 Q. Well, let me try to refresh your memory. Bosnia-Herzegovina was
3 still part of Yugoslavia. The regular Croatian troops went to Kupres,
4 attacking Serbian villages, and the JNA was defending them; correct?
5 A. Well, I can only tell you that I did not follow those events and
6 I can't recall what transpired, but if you say so.
7 Q. Well, why, then, in paragraph 48 do you say that the Muslims
8 protested against their weapons being taken to Kupres?
9 A. Well, this may be an error. They protested because the infantry
10 weapons were being removed from Kljuc and moved to the Kula warehouse in
11 Mrkonjic Grad. It was a military depot, the Kula military depot.
12 Q. Thank you. So paragraph 48 is not completely accurate; correct?
13 A. Well, I don't know why Kupres would be mentioned here. It should
14 read Kula, the warehouse in Kula. That is a reserve depot, military
15 depot, in Kula, towards Manjaca.
16 Q. And that was under JNA control; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Do you remember that in 1990, before the elections in August, the
19 Presidency of the SFRY, the old communist Presidency, ordered that TO
20 weapons should be placed under JNA control and you failed to do that in
21 Kljuc; correct?
22 A. I don't know anything about such a decision by the Presidency.
23 I heard about it during my last evidence here, but I did hear about Kljuc
24 not complying with that decision.
25 Q. Thank you. Did you know anything about the Green Berets and
Page 19720
1 their existence in some smaller villages in your municipality, like
2 Velagici and similar?
3 A. Would you please tell me what you understand Green Berets to
4 mean. Would that mean any Bosniak who was fighting or a soldier who was
5 armed and equipped and uniformed? What do you mean by that?
6 Q. Well, I'll show you the paragraph in a moment. But in the
7 meantime tell us, please, do you know or did you know of the existence of
8 the Kljuc Sana Brigade?
9 A. I didn't know anything about the Kljuc Sana Brigade earlier.
10 I only learned about it in Manjaca or after Manjaca.
11 Q. Thank you. Now, where do you live? What is the street name
12 where you live now?
13 A. Well, in Kljuc -- or, rather, last year I moved to Sanica, and
14 the (redacted)
15 Q. But what was the name of the street where you lived in Kljuc,
16 before you moved?
17 A. Well, it was called Naselje "Sedamnaeste."
18 Q. Would you please give us the full name of that street.
19 A. Naselje of the 17th Mountain Brigade. "Naselje Sedamnaeste
20 Brdske Brigade."
21 Q. The glorious brigade; correct?
22 A. Yes, the glorious brigade.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I don't think it's necessary that
25 we have the street name on page 105 at lines 9 and 12 and 14. I'm sorry,
Page 19721
1 I would ask for that to be redacted.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no objection.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. I would like to know, Mr. Dzafic, this: Was your street, before
5 you moved from Kljuc, was it called the street of the
6 17th Chivalrous Brigade, and was that a Muslim brigade during this war?
7 A. Well, after Kljuc was liberated, it was normally for the streets
8 to be renamed. The street on which I lived before the war was called the
9 street of M Tito, but after the war it was renamed into Naselje, or
10 neighbourhood, of the 17th Mountain Brigade, the Chivalrous Brigade, from
11 Travnik.
12 Q. Thank you. Were you a member of this brigade?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Now, please take a look at paragraph 50. You're
15 being asked -- you're asked about the Green Berets in Velagici, so I was
16 not the first to ask you about the Green Berets; correct?
17 A. Please keep on going.
18 Q. Thank you. So not -- irrespective of whether this is -- this
19 information is correct or not, there was information about Green Berets
20 in Velagici and you had knowledge about it?
21 A. No. I've already told you I learned about it during my evidence.
22 Now, I did not know about the organisation of the Green Berets. I'm not
23 trying to say that there were no able bodied Bosniak men who perhaps
24 managed to obtain illegally some weapons. But that they were organised
25 or that they were Green Berets, I don't have any information to that
Page 19722
1 effect.
2 Q. And now paragraph 51 and the Red Berets -- I apologise.
3 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry, Mr. Karadzic, for interrupting.
4 Your Honour, I think it's only necessary to redact the street
5 name at line 9 on page 105.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. So you noticed the arrival of some Red Berets. And in
9 paragraph 52 you say that you believe that their intentions may have been
10 good, that they reinstated order, that they prevented the escalation of
11 conflicts in Kljuc. That was in early May; is that correct?
12 A. Yes. They were billeted in the secretariat or the staff of
13 Territorial Defence, and a certain number of those Green Berets were
14 placed at the disposal of us in the police.
15 Q. Thank you. And, now, did you conclude that that was the JNA's
16 response to the objections of the conduct of the reservists and do you
17 agree that the Red Berets had been sent as the military police to help
18 you deal with the problems?
19 A. That was true for a while. They did help us a lot. Those people
20 were well-trained, they were good policemen, especially when it came to
21 dealing with the reservists who returned from various front lines and
22 disrupted public peace and order.
23 Q. In paragraph 54 you speak about the Crisis Staff. And you say
24 that some people were members of the Crisis Staffs ex officio, and you
25 mentioned that that was also the case in the previous system. As a
Page 19723
1 person familiar with the Law on All People's Defence, would you agree
2 that membership in such ad hoc bodies such as Presidencies,
3 Crisis Staffs, and so on and so forth, that membership in such bodies is
4 ex officio?
5 A. Yes, I would agree that that was true in the previous system.
6 Q. Thank you. Up to that moment, those laws were still in effect,
7 they had not been changed; right?
8 A. As far as I can remember, you're right.
9 Q. Thank you. And now, you say, in paragraph 58 possibly, that you
10 were informed by a Serb from Sanica that the Serbs had established a
11 Crisis Staff, and he also advised you to advise the Muslims to form their
12 own Crisis Staff. Is that correct?
13 A. Yes, it is. That Muslim staff was never established. Later on,
14 myself and Nedeljko Grabez, who is mentioned in here as the president of
15 the staff in Sanica, were able to establish that a Crisis Staff never
16 existed in Sanica, a Crisis Staff that would have been organised by the
17 Muslims there.
18 Q. Thank you. For the benefit of the other participants who do not
19 hail from our area, let's be precise. Mr. Grabez was a Serb from Sanica
20 and the president of the Serbian Crisis Staff. He talked to you and he
21 advised you to form your own Crisis Staff, you Muslims?
22 A. Well, it was not a piece of advice. It was our informal
23 conversation, because Grabez and I had spent some time working in
24 education. We knew each other very well from there. He just suggested
25 that in passing. We were standing in the street by the school.
Page 19724
1 Q. Thank you. Did you then conclude that it was his belief that if
2 you had a Crisis Staff it would be easier for you to deal with the
3 problems in Sanica?
4 A. Well, I don't know what he may have concluded or not. I can't
5 discuss that. I don't have an answer to that.
6 Q. Thank you. And now, in paragraph 62, you talk about the
7 referendum. Do we agree that that was the referendum that took place in
8 late February? Do you agree that the Serbs abstained and that they did
9 not obstruct you to carry out your referendum?
10 A. Every referendum, including that one, should have been secured by
11 the police. As far as I can remember, the implementation of the
12 referendum was not riddled with any incidents. More or less all the
13 polling places were covered by police patrols.
14 Q. Well, do you agree that the Serbs had informed you in advance
15 that they would not obstruct the referendum?
16 A. I don't remember any such thing, I really don't.
17 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 63 you say that Vinko Kondic signed that
18 he would join the security services centre in Banja Luka. Before then,
19 was the Kljuc Public Security Station tied to the Security Services
20 Centre in Banja Luka?
21 A. Yes, it was. When it comes to joining the Banja Luka region,
22 I made my own conclusions on the basis of the fact that he stopped
23 carrying out orders that came from Sarajevo. He joined the Banja Luka
24 centre, and he carried out their orders and acted on their dispatches.
25 Q. Thank you. Do you know that on the 13th of February and then on
Page 19725
1 21st and then the 22nd February, and then finally the 18th of March, we
2 agreed that the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina would have its own
3 republic and that the Muslims will have -- would have their own republic
4 and the Croats would have their own republic, according to the so-called
5 Lisbon Agreement, did you know that?
6 A. It was a long time ago. I knew some of the details, but not all.
7 Q. Thank you. And do you know, and do you agree, that Kljuc as a
8 whole is very deep in the Serbian territory and that it is surrounded by
9 villages with -- and towns with predominantly Serb population, for
10 example Drvar with almost 100 per cent Serb population, and so on and so
11 forth?
12 A. Mr. Karadzic, I would say yes, however Kljuc also borders on
13 Sanski Most and Prijedor. And look at those places in light of the 1991
14 census.
15 Q. Do you know that Kljuc in almost all plans, bar for one, where it
16 says that Muslim parts of Sanski Most, Kljuc, and Prijedor would have
17 cantons, in all the other plans and proposals Kljuc was envisaged as a
18 town in the Republika Srpska, the exception is the Dayton -- are the
19 Dayton Accords, which were signed during the time when war developments
20 conditioned that? Do you remember that?
21 A. I didn't have that concrete information. I now hear it from you.
22 I really didn't know that. Kljuc is where it is. It cannot be moved.
23 And that's very clear, is it not?
24 Q. Thank you. If we have time we are going to show you a series of
25 maps which will demonstrate that Kljuc has always been considered part of
Page 19726
1 the Republika Srpska by the Muslim leaders and the international
2 mediators. The exceptions to that are the first map and the
3 Owen-Stoltenberg map, which envisaged for Kljuc, Sanski Most, and
4 Prijedor to have Muslim cantons. But I don't think we will get there.
5 We will not have the time to do that.
6 And now you're talking about the establishment of the manoeuvre
7 unit, and do you agree with me that that was something that was
8 customary, that had existed even before, and that my cousin from Jajce
9 Midhat Karadzic refused to obey and to send his police officers to become
10 members of that unit; right?
11 A. I wouldn't use the term that you used. I wouldn't say that he
12 refused. Whether he refused or just didn't want to obey, in any case the
13 manoeuvre unit from Jajce did not attend the joint training in Manjaca.
14 Q. Thank you very much. In paragraph --
15 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, would you have any re-examination?
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Very brief, Your Honour. Hopefully only five
17 minutes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Then we'll take a break now for half an hour. And
19 after which, Mr. Karadzic, you will have ten minutes to conclude your
20 cross-examination.
21 --- Recess taken at 3.01 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 3.30 p.m.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
25 MR. ROBINSON: I'm wondering if the Chamber would consider giving
Page 19727
1 Dr. Karadzic about 45 minutes so that we can finish with this witness and
2 not have to start another one today, and also because I've noticed that
3 in the Zupljanin case the cross-examination was four hours. They don't
4 have time limits there. And maybe the cross-examination was as good as
5 Dr. Karadzic's, maybe it was better, or maybe it was worse, but in any
6 event those lawyers got to ask all the questions that they felt were
7 relevant and necessary. And I think Dr. Karadzic ought to have the same
8 opportunity, particularly considering that the amalgamated statement is
9 even broader than the direct examination in Zupljanin. It doesn't seem
10 fair that he should be restricted to less time than was given in that
11 case. So I hope you could consider using the balance of the day by
12 having him complete his cross-examination and then the re-direct and we
13 can go home at 4.30.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, the Chamber has been disappointed by
16 the conduct of Mr. Karadzic's cross-examination today, which was not
17 focused on relevant issues. However, given the peculiar circumstances of
18 today, we will accommodate your request on an exceptional basis.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you very much on my behalf as
21 well, and thank you for your patience. I'm an amateur, as you know.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Dzafic, in paragraph 71 you say that the Serbs were the ones
24 who wanted the patrols to be of a mixed composition, Serb and Muslim.
25 But then you also say that they wanted to see what kind of weapons the
Page 19728
1 Muslims had been provided with.
2 A. What I had in mind were hunting rifles, Mr. Karadzic.
3 Q. Very well.
4 A. Because those mixed patrols or guards that I knew of had only the
5 hunting rifles that were in their legal possession.
6 Q. My point is different. In paragraph 71 you say:
7 [In English] "There were demands by the Serbs that there be
8 patrols in the mixed Muslim-Serb villages and that these patrols should
9 be mixed. The Serbs only did this to see what kind of weapons the
10 Muslims had."
11 [Interpretation] Later on, you say that Muslim delegates in Kljuc
12 municipality were against that because they did not want the Serbs to see
13 what Muslims had; right?
14 A. No. On the contrary. Both sides were in favour of mixed
15 patrols. However, I received subsequent information, which was then
16 included in the statement, that the mixed patrols were short-lived. They
17 only lasted for a couple of months. And, indeed, that they just wanted
18 to know what weapons Muslims had.
19 Q. Thank you. And then the Muslim delegates didn't want the Serbs
20 to know that.
21 A. I don't know that. I don't know what other people may have been
22 thinking.
23 Q. Thank you. Why did Muslims or Muslim delegates speak against
24 mixed patrols?
25 A. Where do you read that? I can't find it.
Page 19729
1 Q. It is in paragraph 71.
2 [In English] "The Muslim delegates at the Kljuc assembly meetings
3 required that the Serb military and the military police do not go into
4 Muslim areas and that arrests should be only done by the civilian police.
5 The Serbs did not want --" and so and so on.
6 A. This is something completely different, and I adhere by that.
7 Q. Let's go on. In paragraph 73 you say that you were in aware that
8 in Velagici, Pudin Han, the villages had started organising night guard
9 duties, and then you say that they felt that they should organise those
10 patrols because there had been shootings, and so on and so forth. How
11 did you know what they felt?
12 A. Well, the term "feel" may not be appropriate here.
13 I had information, I was privy to the fact that there were
14 shootings, there were fire -- shots fired in those villages into
15 religious buildings and the homes of the veterans, and then the assembly
16 members wanted to install their own guards and patrols in those non-Serb
17 settlements in order to prevent any such activities.
18 Q. Thank you. Do you have a single piece of evidence, a single
19 document, resulting from any investigations about shots being fired into
20 churches and other religious facilities?
21 A. I believe that shots were fired in Velagici and Sanica, in the
22 mosques there, or, rather, in their spires. And investigations actually
23 were not carried out, but we had information to that effect.
24 Q. Thank you. You say that on the 2nd of April, 1992, there were
25 legal forces of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you said that when you're talking
Page 19730
1 about Bosanska Krupa. What did you have in mind? What kind of legal
2 forces did Bosnia-Herzegovina have on the 2nd of April?
3 A. I don't have an answer to that, believe me. I have the
4 translation here to read it a little bit, to remind myself of what is
5 there, but right now I really don't have an answer for that.
6 Q. All right. Thank you. And then in paragraph 75 you say that the
7 police forces started to be formed on a single-ethnic basis. Is it true,
8 Mr. Dzafic, that they were so because you didn't want to work anymore?
9 A. Well, there are a number of questions here. In those
10 circumstances, and the way I explained it, I wasn't able to work any
11 more, and I was removed from my job. I didn't say that I didn't want to
12 work, and I didn't give a statement to that effect.
13 Q. And do you recall that in May two young Muslims from Sarajevo
14 were sent in May to Kljuc and they were deployed there as young policemen
15 and then later they were permanently employed?
16 A. I would like to know their first and last names.
17 Q. Adnan Temimovic; isn't that right?
18 A. Adnan Temimovic was a cadet, an active policeman, who worked at
19 the Kljuc Police Station much before the events of the 7th of May, and
20 then he was transferred to the Sanica Police Department and he worked as
21 a policeman there.
22 Q. Thank you. Let's look at 22074 or -5. Look at Adamovic. This
23 is page 123. Kondic asked you if, in early May --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And this is ERN number -- actually
25 English page 126, Serbian 123, and the ERN number is
Page 19731
1 061-7021 [as interpreted].
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. He asked you whether they, after completing the MUP school, they
4 came to Kljuc, and he gave them a job, and they got permanent employment;
5 is that correct?
6 A. Well, I don't have the translation of that.
7 Q. You have the Serbian version. You have it there. You have the
8 Serbian variant.
9 JUDGE KWON: The Court Deputy should have the transcript in
10 Adamovic trial. 22075, which we saw earlier. Does the witness have it
11 in front of him?
12 Mr. Dzafic, do you have it in front of you?
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Serbian version is good. And
14 the English version, it should be on page 126. The ERN number is
15 0671-7021.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. "I'm asking you about the beginning of May 1992," both pages are
18 okay?
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a minute. The witness is not able to follow
20 the e-court. I'm asking him whether he has it before him.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. All right. Can you look at it. It says, Accused Kondic, the
24 fifth line from the top, Kosovic [phoen], Kondic, Dzafic, Kondic. I'm
25 asking you about the beginning of May. Is it true that they were
Page 19732
1 employed in May? There is a name here, Adnan Temimovic; isn't that
2 right?
3 A. Yes, he was employed at the time, full time, but he actually was
4 employed much before that.
5 Q. But in this transcript you confirm that this was in early May.
6 A. I know that this Mr. Temimovic was part of the manoeuvring
7 contingent training at Manjaca, and this was much earlier, before May.
8 He was a staff member. At the beginning of May he was just transferred
9 from Kljuc to Sanica, to the same organisational unit.
10 Q. Let me remind you, Mr. Dzafic, when they finish do they have a
11 certain term of employment and then after that they have to have a period
12 of traineeship and then are permanently employed?
13 A. Yes, that is correct.
14 Q. And is that why you think he worked for longer, actually?
15 A. Well, I don't have a specific answer to that, but I know that his
16 employment was for a longer period.
17 Q. Thank you. Can you look at paragraph 80 of your statement now.
18 During those two weeks that you were given to consider, you met
19 Omer Filipovic, you considered what to do, should you sign the oath or
20 not; is that right?
21 A. On two or three occasions I just happened to get in touch with
22 Mr. Filipovic in order to surmount the newly created situation and to
23 avoid bloodshed, and there was talk even that the loyalty oath should be
24 signed for the Serbian authorities and for us to continue working.
25 Q. In that paragraph you confirm that you were aware that you knew
Page 19733
1 that the Serbs and Muslims were negotiating the division of Kljuc into a
2 Serbian and Muslim territory; is that correct?
3 A. No. I didn't know that. I didn't know anything about any
4 division.
5 Q. But it states here that you found out later that --
6 A. Maybe later I found out. But at that time I didn't know that.
7 Q. And let's look for just a minute to see if it's correct, to see
8 what was the conclusion regarding the distribution of weapons. The fact
9 that you saw these people, did that have anything to do with the
10 preparation of fighting and the distribution of weapons?
11 A. Well, look, there are a few questions there. I did say that
12 I saw and spoke with Mr. Filipovic several times only in reference to the
13 signing. As to the other activities, distribution of weapons, shipments,
14 combat activities, we did not -- actually, nobody talked to me about any
15 of those topics, not even once.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at D1352 just for a
17 minute, please. D1352. And if we can have page 17, please.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Did you carry out training of extremists and concealed their
20 actions, actions of policemen who took part in that?
21 A. No. Had I done that, Mr. Karadzic, I wouldn't be sitting here
22 today.
23 Q. Well, can you look at item 7. In July 1992, before you were
24 released, this is what the Serbs thought, and they received information
25 that this is what you were doing. Look, operative work established that
Page 19734
1 a number of the SJB --
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 17 can we have in the
3 English -- [In English] Point 7, point 7. Next, please.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. And you can see; I don't have to read it out to you. Can you see
6 this?
7 A. Page 17?
8 Q. Paragraph 7, the involvement of police employees in the legal
9 distribution of weapons and training of extremists. And it states here
10 that they took part in the capture of seven soldiers from Crljin to
11 Krasulje, and together with Atif Dzafic they all trained extremists and
12 concealed their activities. There is still operative work underway for
13 certain former SJB employees. And this was all received from Alija Bilip
14 or Bilic. He's a retired employee.
15 A. I state that the activities that are mentioned in this last
16 sentence, that I carried out training of extremists and concealed their
17 actions, that's what it says here. Anything can be written anywhere.
18 But there is no evidence of me having committed any of these activities.
19 And had I done anything of that, I wouldn't have even reached Manjaca.
20 And, you know, as a person who experienced all the things that
21 I experienced, I do not wish to insult anyone or underestimate anyone.
22 I mean, you insulted me in our previous conversation. But with dignity,
23 with full responsibility, and in the material sense, I say that what I'm
24 saying is true. Anything can be written here.
25 Q. Thank you. You can be sure that I have no intention of insulting
Page 19735
1 you. I'm just trying to establish the truth. Do you know that seven
2 soldiers were captured at Crljin?
3 A. I found that out later, about how many were captured. I didn't
4 take part in that. And there is no point in you putting questions to me
5 about that. I've already said where I was and what I was doing in that
6 period. What I know is what I'm telling you, and that is the truth.
7 Q. In -- according to what you know, did this Atif Dedic participate
8 in the capture of those policemen?
9 A. Well, Atif Dedic was a policeman. That's what it says here. I
10 don't know whether he took part in that or not. You should ask him that.
11 And the other soldiers who, as far as I know, attacked a Muslim village,
12 of the village of Crljin, this is something that should be looked at from
13 several aspects, and the truth should be established.
14 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I have to ask you, without any intention to insult
15 you, Are you saying that the soldiers attacked the village and were
16 captured or they were captured without any kind of attack having taken
17 place while they were in a column? Just tell me what you are asserting,
18 and then we'll see later.
19 A. Well, let's be clear. I don't know. Perhaps we're not thinking
20 of the same thing, of the same period, the same date, and so on.
21 Q. Thank you. Can you look at paragraph 90 of your statement, where
22 you say that you heard in Manjaca that Atif Dedic, Muslim policeman, was
23 one of the people who captured seven Serbian soldiers.
24 A. Yes, I did hear that in Manjaca. But later you can read what it
25 says in the statement.
Page 19736
1 Q. And is it correct that he was dismissed from the police after
2 that?
3 A. Mr. Karadzic, no. This happened at the time when we were
4 dismissed from the police.
5 Q. And those five soldiers who were killed, the JNA soldiers, of the
6 JNA that was withdrawing, were not five soldiers killed in the column
7 that was withdrawing from Knin to Yugoslavia?
8 A. Well, this case is just one case that you're asking me about,
9 regarding Atif Dedic. And this other thing is another incident. As far
10 as I know, according to some information, three or five were killed in
11 the column. That is correct. And these ones here, five -- or, rather,
12 seven, were captured in the Bosniak settlement of Crljin.
13 Q. Thank you. And is it correct that on the 27th of May a
14 synchronised number of attacks were executed against the Serbian soldiers
15 and army in the Kljuc municipality?
16 A. I have no answer to that question. I wasn't really informed
17 about it because already on the 21st or the 22nd I was in Sanica, which
18 is my birthplace, and this actually happened on the 27th of May. And
19 I would like to ask you to actually dwell on this as little as possible,
20 questions like this, where I was not an eyewitness.
21 Q. Thank you. But you write about that in your statement. In 82,
22 you say that you went to Sanica and that you heard that there would be
23 shelling. Isn't it correct that Sanica was never shelled?
24 A. Well, the shelling of Sanica was announced. It was announced.
25 Q. But it didn't actually happen; right?
Page 19737
1 A. No, not in Sanica, no.
2 Q. Thank you. And you say that some of us escaped to the forest.
3 We hid in the forest. Who hid in the forest?
4 A. When the shelling was announced, the shelling of the Sanica area,
5 all the inhabitants, women, children, of course all the adults, fled to
6 the nearby woods, and I was also in one of those columns of people.
7 Q. When was this exactly?
8 A. I don't know exactly, but it was in the period from the 22nd to
9 the 26th. Excuse me, I don't know exactly. It was from the 22nd,
10 thereabouts, up until the 30th of May. I cannot recall the exact date,
11 but I know that with my family, with my elderly mother, and the others,
12 we escaped.
13 Q. Thank you. When you talk about the 1st of June in paragraph 84
14 and you speak about civilians, what are civilians to you, Mr. Dzafic? Is
15 it that they are wearing civilian clothing? And is a policeman and a
16 fighter still that when they change into civilian clothing, or do they
17 turn into civilians?
18 A. Well, it's well known what a civilian is and what a uniformed
19 person is. A soldier, a policeman, wearing a uniform. Of course.
20 Q. And was it a widespread occurrence in Bosnia that people, at
21 least during the first year, actually fought wearing civilian clothing?
22 A. Well, where I was, after being dismissed from the police, in that
23 period, there was nobody fighting in civilian clothing. Actually neither
24 in civilian clothing, neither in uniform. That's where I was.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
Page 19738
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honour, but I would ask
2 Mr. Karadzic not to misquote the evidence. He says, in page 120, line 17
3 to 19:
4 "And is it correct that on the 27th of May a synchronised number
5 of attacks were executed against the Serbian soldiers and army in the
6 Kljuc municipality?"
7 And then the witness goes on to say: "I have no answer to that
8 question." I wasn't informed about this, and goes on.
9 And then Mr. Karadzic says:
10 "But you write about that in your statement," in paragraph 82.
11 And then goes on to say: "... you say that you went to Sanica and that
12 you heard that there would be shelling. Isn't it correct ..."
13 And that's not -- none of that is contained in paragraph 82.
14 JUDGE KWON: No. Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, in paragraph 82, and I have
16 to read now, there it is, 82:
17 [In English] [As read] "I could hear the sound of gunfire and in
18 and around the village of Pudin Han and Velagici and that what sounded
19 like artillery fire and exploding shells. Also during that time I saw
20 five or six houses were ..." and so on.
21 [Interpretation] Or perhaps it's 83. But the witness confirmed
22 it. I don't have to call up the document if the witness confirms.
23 JUDGE KWON: Let us proceed.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Dzafic, you mention in paragraph 85 the time when you were
Page 19739
1 detained in the gym of the school in Sanica. You say that Milan Tomic
2 told you that the investigative team was late because the Green Berets
3 had set an ambush at Biljani, on the road from Kljuc to Sanica which was
4 blocked.
5 A. That's Tomic's evidence. He told not only me but all of us who
6 were detained there, who had been illegally, unlawfully, brought to that
7 gym, but we only laughed at it because we knew that neither was the road
8 blocked at Biljani, nor were there any Green Berets to set ambushes.
9 That's what he said, his words.
10 Q. How could you, sitting in that gym, know that it's not true,
11 while he, with a hand-held radio and contact with the police station,
12 doesn't know?
13 A. We knew it wasn't true because it was not in the Bosniaks'
14 interest to do anything like that. They wouldn't care to do something
15 like that.
16 Q. So you reckoned they wouldn't do something like that and on that
17 basis you say there was no roadblock and no ambush by the Green Berets.
18 Do you have any stronger argument to support what you're saying?
19 A. At that time, I had some information, and that's why we laughed
20 when he said that. If there had been any Green Berets in the area of
21 Biljani, we would have known about it, certainly.
22 Q. In your evidence in the Adamovic case, 22075, page 10, you say
23 that the head of department, Milan Tomic, said we should be patient.
24 Wait for a while. A team of investigators from Kljuc would come,
25 question us, and of course, those who are found to be innocent will be
Page 19740
1 released to go home, and those who are found to be responsible would be
2 held accountable.
3 Is that what he said?
4 A. Yes, yes.
5 Q. And when the investigators were running late, he explained that
6 it was because of an ambush in Biljani.
7 A. Yes, those were his words.
8 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that some people were killed at
9 Biljani. Did you see that?
10 A. Mr. Karadzic, I did not see that, nor was I able to see that. On
11 10 July, when that happened in Biljani, I was at Manjaca, and I didn't
12 even mention it anywhere. I just learned in 1996, during the exhumation
13 of mass graves, that all the people from the Biljani area were exhumed
14 from Laniste 1 site, 189 persons. I attended the exhumation.
15 Q. And do you know how they died?
16 A. How they met their death? I learned later that they had been
17 brought in, put on two buses to go to Manjaca, but they never arrived at
18 Manjaca. They ended up at Laniste where they were killed.
19 Q. That's what you heard from someone and you have no other
20 knowledge about it?
21 A. No. No. After the war I was appointed chief of the police
22 administration in Kljuc, and as chief of that administration it was my
23 duty to attend the exhumations. I had opportunity to see all sorts of
24 documents and statements. I was not an eyewitness in that case except
25 attending the exhumation of mass graves, and I believe there are
Page 19741
1 witnesses who were eye witnesses and who can confirm this better than I
2 can. But I do know that whole bodies were recovered from that grave,
3 bodies that were not damaged, and they -- it was clear that they had been
4 shot with a bullet to the head.
5 Q. But you do say that only a survivor could really confirm what
6 happened.
7 A. Yes. A survivor could testify.
8 Q. And then a survivor is suddenly found and comes here to testify.
9 A. I don't know about that. It's not my decision, Mr. Karadzic.
10 Q. Thank you. I have misled the parties. It's in paragraph 88, in
11 fact, you told the investigator, Vasic, that Sanica would be shelled, as
12 you had heard, and you would go to hide in the woods. Vasic, in fact,
13 asked you why you were going to hide in the woods and you answered that
14 you had heard Sanica would be shelled. Is that right?
15 A. When I was being brought to the gym in that school, of course
16 I was questioned, among others by Vasic, and he made some sort of
17 official note, and I told him all I knew. Nothing else. And among other
18 things I told him that when I heard about the shelling I went with my
19 entire family and some other neighbours to the woods. We didn't stay
20 there for a long time, for an hour or two at most, and as soon as it got
21 dark, we went home.
22 Q. In paragraph 91 you say you were questioned as to why you had
23 killed your assistant Dusan Stojakovic.
24 A. You are insulting me. Nobody asked me why I had killed him.
25 They questioned me as to what I knew about who might have killed him.
Page 19742
1 Stojakovic had been my colleague for years. I was not there when he was
2 killed and I told you many times I wasn't there. And I don't know under
3 what circumstances he was killed.
4 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I am not accusing you of anything. But you say in
5 paragraph 91 that you were questioned about that, about his death.
6 [In English] "He asked me why I killed Stojakovic and why I did
7 not come to his funeral."
8 [Interpretation] That's written in paragraph 91 of your
9 statement, and I'm not --
10 JUDGE KWON: Why don't you read the next sentence as well.
11 MR. KARADZIC:
12 Q. "I told him that I did not kill him and that I was in Sanica and
13 that I could not come to the funeral because it was in Ribnik, 25
14 kilometres," and so on.
15 I'm not asking you here whether you killed him. I'm asking you
16 whether they asked you that, whether you were a suspect. I'm interested
17 in the grounds for your arrest, and that you hid in the forest, that you
18 trained terrorists, that you covered up illegal activities of the
19 policemen involving weapons. All these are circumstances I want to shed
20 light on.
21 A. That's what you're saying, Mr. Karadzic. But I can answer each
22 of these questions, and I have answered them already. I told you nicely
23 where I actually was. And I'm warning you, and I'm telling the
24 Trial Chamber as well, that if it had been noted -- if I had been seen
25 hiding in those woods, and if I had been caught training anyone, let
Page 19743
1 alone terrorists, I would not be sitting here today.
2 Q. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in why you were
3 treated as a suspect. What was the reason for your arrest? And did they
4 really ask you why you had killed Stojakovic, as written in paragraph 91?
5 A. Mr. Karadzic, they had to ask me as well as all the others.
6 There was no reason to arrest me. There was no reason for all the
7 beatings and the abuse and all that was done to me. If there had been
8 any real evidence of anything, they wouldn't talk to me at all. They
9 just thought that I, as police commander, perhaps had more information
10 than others. And that's why they put those questions.
11 Q. Are you saying that material evidence had some importance for the
12 Serbs? Isn't that what you said a moment ago?
13 A. Of course. Everyone is looking for proof.
14 Q. At Manjaca, you were --
15 A. I was on duty at the barn.
16 Q. And in paragraph 105 you say every morning you toured the place,
17 asking if anybody needed a physician.
18 A. In that barn, where after the first 10 days I was named commander
19 of barn number 2, which held on average 600 to 800 prisoners, my job was
20 to check every morning if any of the prisoners needed to have their
21 wounds bandaged, needed medicine or anything. Such prisoners would be
22 taken to the adjacent building to be examined.
23 Q. Thank you. In every barn, were the monitors on duty the most
24 prominent people among the prisoners? Omer was on duty in another barn.
25 A. Omer was not a monitor of any kind. He was in the third barn.
Page 19744
1 Whether they were really the most prominent or well-respected people, I
2 don't know. For instance, one man I know, who was initially appointed
3 monitor, was unable to do that job so he was replaced.
4 Q. Tell me, did those people, who wanted to volunteer to go out to
5 work, report to you or someone else?
6 A. Well, there were several problems with that. One of them was
7 that every morning a certain number of prisoners had to be sent out to
8 work. Sometimes it was necessary to choose a hundred or even more
9 prisoners very quickly, and there were not enough volunteers. And
10 towards the end there were no volunteers at all.
11 Q. How many Muslims lived in the whole of Kljuc municipality?
12 A. You mean before the war?
13 Q. Around 17.000; is that right?
14 A. 17.000; right. 47.something Serbs and 49.something Muslims.
15 Q. In paragraph 111, you say that there were 60 to 70 in every hall.
16 How many halls existed there at all?
17 A. That's a mistake. From the area of Kljuc, on the original list,
18 Mr. Karadzic, only from the area of Kljuc, 1.163 prisoners from Kljuc
19 turned over, and that's not even counting the minors and the elderly.
20 Q. From the area of Kljuc, with a population of 17.000?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, tell me, you have confirmed that in 1995, when
23 you arrived, Serbs had fled Kljuc.
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Is Kljuc municipality now divided between Serbs and Muslims; so
Page 19745
1 Serbs have the area facing Ribnik and the Muslims have the area facing
2 Sanski Most?
3 A. Well the Dayton Accords divided Kljuc municipality into two
4 parts. Exactly as you described. The area with the majority Serb
5 population went to the Republika Srpska, and the remaining part to the
6 federation.
7 Q. Mr. Dzafic, wouldn't it have been better if that had been
8 accomplished by the Lisbon agreement without war, than the Dayton Accords
9 after the war?
10 A. Mr. Karadzic, it was not my decision.
11 Q. You mentioned the incident in Velagici. Do you know that that
12 incident has been investigated and that people were tried?
13 A. I don't know that. But concerning the incident in Velagici, I
14 can repeat the following: While I was in Manjaca, a while into my
15 detention, one night two or three prisoners came to my barn and one of
16 them was from Velagici, Kljuc municipality. His name was
17 Suad Draganovic. He was trembling with fear, beaten up, black and blue,
18 and he told me the story of what happened at Velagici. Now, whether
19 anyone was held responsible, whether anyone was tried or convicted, I
20 don't know. But the bodies of those people from Velagici were found
21 eventually in the mass grave of Laniste 2, 79 of them, whole bodies.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, it's almost time to conclude.
23 THE ACCUSED: Just two questions, to finish this one and another.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Do you know that the Serbian authorities, or, rather,
Page 19746
1 Republika Srpska, treated that as a crime, and judgements were made in
2 that case?
3 A. I don't know anything about it. In fact, I don't know any
4 details. I wouldn't go into that discussion. But it's only natural,
5 it's only to be expected, that the perpetrators should be tried and
6 punished.
7 Q. And you also mentioned the incident in Biljani on 10th of July,
8 and you say in paragraph 140 that some tried to escape, around 20 were
9 killed. And then you say around 270 people, or, rather, men, women, and
10 children, who had been in that collective centre were killed. Do you
11 know that for a fact, how those people were killed? I mean, apart from
12 those who had tried to escape?
13 A. I don't know the details. I wasn't there. Let's get that clear.
14 From what I know and from what I saw in the mass grave of Laniste 1,
15 bodies were buried in two layers, and those were residents of Biljani.
16 And among them was a three-month-old baby girl. I was there during that
17 exhumation. And of course there were corpses of women and elderly men.
18 And the logical inference from that number of victims is that's how they
19 died. But I didn't investigate it myself.
20 Q. You say that only men were incarcerated in Sanica. You say that
21 in your paragraph 147; right?
22 A. In the sports hall in Sanica. Only men were incarcerated. And
23 among them there were also minors. And there were also people who were
24 over 65 years of age at the time.
25 Q. And you say in your paragraph 150 that in those prisons, you
Page 19747
1 believe that nobody was killed there.
2 A. No. Nobody was killed in Sanica while I was there. In Kljuc,
3 where I was also incarcerated in a sports hall, while I was there for
4 that one day and the night, or perhaps even longer, nobody was killed
5 while I was there. In Sitnica, where I spent about seven days in a
6 sports hall, I'm not aware of anybody having been killed there.
7 Q. Thank you. And just one more question.
8 You say that there was no health care in those detention centres.
9 However, in your last paragraph you say that you were kept for 24 hours
10 in Sanica and some other places for one or two days; right?
11 A. Yes. I spent about 24 hours in Sanica. There was no food, there
12 was no medical attention. People were asked for drugs or help but
13 nothing was forthcoming.
14 Q. And you're talking about the 24 hours that you were there?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzafic. Please do not think that I tried to
17 attack you in any way. I just wanted to find out how come that 1700 out
18 of 17.000 Muslims in Kljuc were interrogated and incarcerated.
19 A. I apologise. 1.630 were in Manjaca alone. And there were other
20 camps and other prisons.
21 Q. What happened to those who were incarcerated elsewhere, in the
22 sports halls and elsewhere? Did they end up in Manjaca or were they
23 released?
24 A. Either Manjaca or they were released, yes, you're right.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Very well. Thank you.
Page 19748
1 I apologise. Please do not feel insulted by anything that I asked you.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, thank you very
3 much. There are a lot of documents that remain, but I can use them with
4 some other witnesses. For me the most important things are the
5 statements of these people, who are tendered into evidence and admitted
6 into evidence in this case, thank you very much.
7 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
9 Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
10 Q. Mr. Dzafic, I have a couple of questions for you. Very, very
11 briefly, earlier this afternoon at page 106 of the transcript
12 Mr. Karadzic put a question to you in relation to the Red Berets, which
13 is mentioned in paragraph 51 of your statement, and he said you noticed
14 the arrival of some Red Berets, and in paragraph 52 you say that you
15 believe their intentions may have been good, and went further.
16 You answered. You said:
17 "Yes. They were billeted in the secretariat or the staff of
18 Territorial Defence, and a certain number of those Green Berets were
19 placed at the disposal of us in the police."
20 Were you referring to Red Berets or Green Berets in your answer?
21 Because "Green Berets" appears in the transcript.
22 A. I apologise. I misspoke. The word "green" should be replaced by
23 the word "red." And I believe that it is obvious from the overall
24 context of my responses.
25 Q. Yes, Mr. Dzafic, thank you. I want to now -- I want you to look
Page 19749
1 at two documents.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: If I could call up 65 ter number 00849A. And
3 these two documents that I wish to show Mr. Dzafic have been faxed or
4 e-mailed down to the Registrar in the Sarajevo field office.
5 Q. Mr. Dzafic, this is a copy of a document, of 65 ter number 00849,
6 that you saw this morning, which is behind tab number 13, which is now
7 MFI P03490. We can see there that it has a Broj number, 05.01-118/1992.
8 I would now like you to look at another --
9 A. 118?
10 Q. 118/1992. I would now like you to look at another document, and
11 this is 65 ter number 00848. And that is a document dated the same date,
12 the 21st of July, 1992, with a Broj number, 05-01-117/1992. And it's
13 dealing with the decision on the termination of employment of all
14 employees who have filed respond to the general mobilisation.
15 Is this consistent with your knowledge of what was going on in
16 the Kljuc municipality in respect of mobilisation?
17 A. The document under 117, and the last two numbers are /1992, is
18 something I've never seen before, and this refers to the general
19 mobilisation. As far as I can remember, I've not seen it before. In
20 practice, the mobilisation was implemented in this exact way.
21 Q. To your knowledge, were people's employment terminated who failed
22 to respond to the mobilisation?
23 A. I don't have any specific information about anybody. I only
24 know, and I have already stated that, that the leading people in state,
25 public, and other institutions who were not Serbs lost their jobs.
Page 19750
1 Q. Thank you, Mr. Dzafic.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would seek to tender these two
3 documents.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The same objection. The same
6 objection. There is a bucket missing here, there is water missing there,
7 there is a signature missing here, there is a stamp missing there.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it goes to the weight. The witness
9 has already spoken about the document 00849A. We can also see on the
10 document that preceded the first document, which has the Broj number 117,
11 it does have a stamp, it does -- it appears to have a signature on the
12 document, and I would -- I'm sorry, Mr. Tieger wants to add something.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.
14 MR. TIEGER: I would just add, Mr. President, that this -- these
15 documents have indeed been authenticated. Now we've gone a step farther
16 to show that they're --
17 JUDGE KWON: You said it has been authenticated.
18 MR. TIEGER: Well, I mean, I understand that the ultimate
19 determination of that is in the Court's hands. But I'm saying that the
20 earmarks and indicia of authenticity have been provided with regard to
21 stamps, with regard to sequence, and the order, and so on.
22 Now the accused raises some speculation about what might have
23 happened with these documents, which is entirely baseless and of the type
24 that could be advanced on an imaginative basis for virtually every
25 document that's been tendered by the Defence in this case. There's no
Page 19751
1 basis for ignoring the classic earmarks of authenticity that exist with
2 respect to these documents and that have been amplified by the additional
3 document that has been proffered, and, as Ms. Sutherland has noted, to
4 the extent that the speculation of the accused is ultimately given any
5 weight by the Court, that goes to the weight of the document.
6 JUDGE KWON: But it's true that in dealing with scope of such --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?
8 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'm addressing the parties. I'll be
9 very brief. But in conducting a trial of this size, it's true -- and
10 also it has been our practice not to challenge the authenticity with such
11 a seriousness. But there is a specific challenge from a party, the thing
12 may be different. We'll mark these two documents for identification and
13 come back to this issue very soon in due course after the deliberation on
14 the part of the Chamber.
15 Is there anything further to be raised?
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated].
17 JUDGE KWON: Microphone, please.
18 MS. SUTHERLAND: No, Your Honour. I have no further questions
19 for the witness. And I would just let Your Honours know that
20 65 ter number 00920 and 16080, the English translations have now been
21 uploaded. And also the last document, 65 ter number 00874, which was the
22 document that wasn't in full, has now been uploaded into e-court and that
23 has the names of 1,163 people.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?
Page 19752
1 JUDGE KWON: We've passed the time, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Briefly, please. We would not
3 challenge the authenticity. However, it is obvious that there is a
4 stamp, but I can't see Jovo Banjac, but this was sent to all the
5 companies. How come that the complete document was not found in any of
6 the companies? I believe that this was falsified after the Bosnian army
7 entered Kljuc. If this was sent to all the companies together with a
8 signature and the stamp, I'm sure that it should have been found in its
9 complete form somewhere, in some of those companies.
10 JUDGE KWON: You need expert advice from Mr. Robinson. I don't
11 follow Mr. Karadzic when he said he does not challenge the authenticity,
12 while he's saying, raising the possibility of falsification. We will
13 come to this issue later on.
14 We will give the number for these two documents.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, 65 ter 849A shall be assigned
16 Exhibit P3516, and 65 ter document 848 shall be assigned Exhibit P3517,
17 both marked for identification. Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 Mr. Dzafic, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of the
20 Chamber and the Tribunal, I would like to thank you for giving it. Now
21 you are free to go.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [In English] Excellencies, I said we would not. We
24 would not. This is matter of translation. We would not contest.
25 JUDGE KWON: We will come back to this.
Page 19753
1 [The witness withdrew via videolink]
2 JUDGE KWON: We will resume on Monday at 9.00.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 4.35 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Monday, the 3rd day of
5 October, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.
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