1 Monday, 3 October 2011
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Could the witness take the solemn declaration.
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
9 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Stojic. If you could take a seat and
11 make yourself comfortable.
12 WITNESS: GRGO STOJIC
13 [Witness answered through interpreter]
14 Examination by Ms. Sutherland:
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Sutherland.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours.
17 Q. Sir, can you please state your full name for the record.
18 A. I am Grgo Stojic.
19 Q. As we discussed, part of your evidence in this case is going to
20 be submitted in writing and we need to deal with the formalities related
21 to that submission first.
22 You testified in the Brdjanin trial in June in 2002; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You've subsequently had an opportunity to review the audio
1 recordings of that testimony?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And that is an accurate -- that audio recording is -- is an
4 accurate representation of your evidence at that time?
5 A. That is correct.
6 Q. If are you asked today about the matters that you testified to in
7 the Brdjanin case, would you provide the same information to the
8 Trial Chamber, and that is, even if you couldn't formulate it in exactly
9 the same answers, the essence would be the same?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I seek to tender 09 -- sorry,
12 90273, please.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will be admitted.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P3515, Your Honours.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: With Your Honours leave, I will now read a short
17 The witness, Grgo Stojic, was born and grew up in the village of
18 Skrljevita in the Sanski Most municipality. He lived there until 1992 at
19 which time he was 24 years of age.
20 The witness testified regarding the general situation in the
21 Sanski Most municipality, the check-points, the restriction of movement
22 and the demands made by the Sanski Most Crisis Staff over the radio
23 ordering non-Serbs to surrender their weapons.
24 The witness primarily testified about the killing of a number of
25 men of Croat ethnicity near the village of Skrljevita in the Sanski Most
1 municipality on or about the 2nd of November, 1992. He is the sole
2 survivor of this incident.
3 On that day, he and his cousin were ambushed by the two persons
4 of Serb ethnicity, one of whom he came to know as Danilusko Kajtez. The
5 two Serbs ordered the witness and his cousin to follow them. They were
6 taken a short distance to where four Croat neighbours were being detained
7 by another two persons of Serb ethnicity. The six Croat men were ordered
8 to line up. They were searched, questioned, and personal belongings
9 seized. They were all beaten with truncheons. They were then shot. The
10 witness was shot in his left upper arm and he fell straight to the
11 ground. As he was lying on the ground, he felt a bullet hit his hip and
12 exist through his stomach. When the witness got up, he realized all the
13 other men were dead. One of the five men had his skull blown to bits.
14 The witness managed to make his way to his village and was
15 eventually taken to the Sanski Most health centre. He was then
16 transferred to Prijedor and then to the Banja Luka hospital where he was
17 operated on. On the 9th of November, he was moved from the intensive
18 care unit to a room in the urology unit referred to by the witness as a
19 prison cell. Between 9 November and the time he was released, which was
20 11 December 1992, he did not receive regular medical treatment. Hospital
21 staff allowed other patients and civilians and soldiers to beat the
22 witness and other patients kept in the same room as he on a number of
23 occasions. They were kicked and punched and beaten.
24 The witness was kicked in the stomach until he started bleeding.
25 Upon his release, he spent three days at Caritas before being take to
2 That completes the summary of the witness's evidence,
3 Your Honour.
4 Q. Mr. Stojic, I have a couple of questions for you. You testified
5 that after you left the Banja Luka hospital, you spent a few days with
6 Caritas before being taken to Croatia. How were you transported to
8 A. I was transferred to Croatia in a Caritas convoy from Banja Luka
9 to Zagreb.
10 Q. You testified that you suffered gun-shot wounds to your hip and
11 stomach and upper arm on the 2nd of November, 1992. In late 1994, did
12 you undergo a bone transplant in hospital in the United States --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- to try and give you more function with your left arm?
15 A. Yes.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: 65 ter 16820A, please.
17 Is the photo in e-court? Are we able to turn it -- turn it
19 Q. Sir, are these two photographs contained within a medical journal
20 article published in the United States which you provided to the OTP in
22 A. Yes, that is right.
23 Q. The photograph on the left was taken in 1994 just before your
24 surgery, and the photograph on the right was taken in November 1994,
25 after your surgery; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. [Previous translation continued] ... your treating physician,
3 Dr. Rayan, on the right in that photograph, the photograph on the
4 right-hand side?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. Besides having to live with your arm like that for two years
7 before the surgery, what other physical or psychological effects did you
8 or do you suffer as a consequence of what you experienced in 1992?
9 A. To this very day, I have nightmares, fear that still remains.
10 It's difficult to live as a disabled person with a 70 per cent permanent
11 disability needing the help of others without enough financial means to
12 live, and so on and so forth.
13 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stojic. I have no further questions.
14 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with the associated exhibits.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: Are there any objections?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. With respect to a number of
18 exhibits which were shown to the witness at page 6793 and -94 of his
19 transcript, there's about six or maybe seven of them. I don't know that
20 those were sufficiently discussed with the witness so that they form an
21 integral part of his testimony. In addition, they don't seem appropriate
22 for admission through this witness. They are essentially records of the
23 court case of Danilusko Kajtez. And this witness was not a participant
24 in that case, and it all happened after he left Bosnia. And he really
25 doesn't give any information. In fact, some of those documents were
1 never even shown to him. They were just simply mentioned by the
3 So for 65 ters numbers 5657, 5706, 17750, 20560, 20562, 20588,
4 and 20592, we object.
5 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I would not seek to tender 5657,
7 17750. 20562 was discussed with the witness, and also in
8 cross-examination the document was shown to the witness at transcript
9 page 6801. And also 20560 was also shown in cross-examination at
10 transcript page 6801. And I would seek not to tender --
11 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the last one, the 65 ter number of
12 the last one.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: 20560.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: And then I would not seek to tender 20592,
16 20588, and 05706. They can -- those five exhibits can come in through
17 another witness.
18 JUDGE KWON: So you are tendering, among those seven, only two.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: 20560, 20562, which was also discussed in
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE KWON: In the view of the Chamber, those two documents form
25 an indispensable and inseparable part of the transcript and on that basis
1 we admit them. And the others -- together with the others, those will be
2 given numbers in due course and informed to the parties.
3 But there's one matter for the Court Deputy to clarify with
4 respect to the exhibit number.
5 Ms. Sutherland, you are minded to tendered that -- the photo we
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. Thank you for reminding me.
8 JUDGE KWON: So that would be admitted as well.
9 THE REGISTRAR: It will be Exhibit P3516, Your Honours.
10 And just to clarify a change in the exhibit numbering. On the
11 last hearing date, on the 30th of September, two 65 ter numbers, 849A and
12 848, were admitted as P3516 MFI and P3517 MFI. The exhibits will now be
13 changed to read as follows: 65 ter number 849A will be Exhibit P3511,
14 and 65 ter number 848 will be Exhibit P3514, both marked for
15 identification. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 Before Mr. Karadzic begins his cross-examination, Mr. Tieger, I
18 just heard from the Court Deputy before I entered the courtroom that
19 there was a change of witnesses' order.
20 MR. TIEGER: That's correct, Mr. President, necessitated by the
21 subpoena issue and the lack of progress.
22 JUDGE KWON: Could it not have been informed earlier on?
23 MR. TIEGER: Well, we kept the Defence -- as I was in fairly
24 regular contact with Mr. Robinson. And the problem, Mr. President, is
25 that there was no definitive word one way or another. So we made our
1 best efforts to be as conversant with the status of the situation as
2 possible, but even at the -- and as I explained to Mr. Robinson, even at
3 what was nearly the last minute we were still uncertain about where we
4 stood, and that's about the best I could do. So we didn't have a
5 definitive change, and that was the problem.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
7 MR. TIEGER: And I don't recall whether or not there were -- I
8 assumed the Registry was as alert to that. And I -- we can develop a
9 protocol, of course, for similar contact with Chamber's personnel as we
10 know these things. We're not really aware of the extent to which there's
11 communication between the Registry and Chamber's personnel about issues
12 such as that. But we'd be more than happy to discuss the best mode of
13 communication under circumstances such as the one we faced toward the end
14 of last week.
15 JUDGE KWON: So what's the witnesses' order like as it stands now
16 for the remainder of the week?
17 MR. TIEGER: Well, what we've discussed is proceeding in the
18 order we had listed. I understand that there's one matter that the
19 Defence wishes to raise in connection with that. But that is what we
20 discussed with Mr. Robinson at the end of the week and over the course of
21 the weekend, and that's still our intention. There are a couple of
22 wrinkles with that. One of which is, as I mentioned, I think will be
23 raised by the Defence, and there's a minor one to be raised on behalf of
24 the Prosecution as well, but that's our intention at the moment.
25 JUDGE KWON: So we are not sure when we will be hearing the
1 witness who was the subject of subpoena.
2 MR. TIEGER: That is correct, Mr. President. And it's a matter I
3 raised with the Registry as well. Depending on -- I mean, that raises a
4 further scheduling issue that should be discussed. I still don't know
5 what the anticipated date of service is at this point, but given the
6 Court schedule, we certainly want to consider the advisability of
7 bringing the witness, should he be served, later in the week, and we
8 might want to consider a different time for travel. So the service is
9 fine, but then we may want to liaise with VWU to determine whether the
10 witness is to be brought forthwith or his date of travel should be
11 extended to a time that conforms a little bit better to the current
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 So I'll take that you will pay your utmost care so that the
15 parties and Chamber could be properly informed.
16 MR. TIEGER: We certainly will, Your Honour. And, as I said,
17 we've had regular contact with the Defence and kept them as up-to-date as
18 we have been, and we've made considerable proactive efforts to be as
19 alert -- as aware as possible about what was happening in the field.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
21 Yes, Mr. Stojic. Your testimony in the case of Brdjanin was
22 admitted in lieu of your examination-in-chief. Now you will be further
23 asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.
24 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.
1 Good morning to everyone.
2 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stojic, good morning.
4 A. Good morning.
5 Q. First of all, I would like to express my solidarity because of
6 your wounds because of all of the suffering that you experienced.
7 Because that photograph is the freshest image, I would like to ask you
8 this: Why was this surgery not carried out in Croatia? Why did you have
9 to go to America?
10 A. Because there was a long waiting-list. I didn't get my turn.
11 And I also didn't have money to pay for it.
12 Q. Are you trying to say that in America it was cheaper than in
14 A. Sir, I travelled through the international immigration
15 organisation, IOM.
16 Q. Thank you. And what was supposed to have been done in Croatia,
17 could this have been done in Croatia?
18 A. Yes, it could have been done, but I didn't have the money.
19 Q. Thank you. You told us that you went to the market. Are you
20 trying to say that at the time the market was working, operating in
21 Sanski Most?
22 A. Yes, it was.
23 Q. And what did you take to the market and how often?
24 A. Some agricultural products so that we could get salt for that,
25 coffee, and so on.
1 Q. How often did you go to the market?
2 A. I didn't go very often. The market day was on Mondays.
3 Q. So you went on Mondays. And tell me, is it correct that it was
4 possible to go until the first attack, the first fighting in Sanski Most,
5 until late May -- in late May?
6 A. Yes, that's right.
7 Q. Thank you. I'm not sure that I put a precise question. Moving
8 around in the municipality was free and possible until the first attack
9 in late May, the 25th, the 26th, and the 27th of May; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And then after the fighting there was a request to hand over
12 weapons; is that right?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. And you say that this was announced over the Serbian
15 radio in Sanski Most, but it was not said that the weapons are to be
16 handed over by specific ethnic groups but that weapons should be handed
18 A. Well, I heard on Radio Sanski Most that this related or concerned
19 the villages of Bosniaks and Croats.
20 Q. Were there any weapons there?
21 A. Some did have legal weapons and so on.
22 Q. Were there any weapons in your village?
23 A. People who had weapons with a permit, they possessed them
25 Q. And a number of those weapons were handed over; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. However, the Serbs had information that there were still
3 86 rifles which had been obtained from Croatia which were not handed
4 over; is that right?
5 A. Well, these were just stories. It was just talk. None of the
6 Croats received that many rifles.
7 Q. When the conflict broke out, then you needed to have permission
8 to be able to move around, passes?
9 A. Yes, that is correct.
10 Q. And this is something that those who did not fight accepted as
11 part of normal procedure during the conflict; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did you feel safer with a pass in your pocket; and was this pass
14 something that allowed you to pass through?
15 A. Well, the pass actually wasn't valid. It was worthless.
16 Q. I have to remind you and me to pause between question and answer
17 because of the translation.
18 Is it true that the authorities in Sanski Most offered the option
19 to civilians to go somewhere if they wanted to go somewhere; and for
20 those who wanted to stay, the authorities did everything they could to
21 provide guarantees for those who stayed?
22 A. Yes, that is correct. They did promise and provide guarantees,
23 but this was not actually respected. It didn't go the way it was
24 supposed to.
25 Q. All right. We will come to those who violated that.
1 Your family applied to leave somewhere; is that right?
2 A. Yes. I also was requesting documents in order to be able to
3 leave. Unfortunately, I wasn't successful.
4 Q. Thank you. Was it difficult to obtain the documents? What
5 documents were required exactly?
6 A. Well, you needed a lot. You needed to sign out. You needed to
7 pay some fees. I can't remember exactly what -- how much. It's been
8 19 years since then. You needed passes and so on and so forth. I cannot
9 remember everything.
10 Q. Thank you. Was it necessary to have some good connections in
11 order to get yourself on the list for the convoy?
12 A. I didn't hear anything of the sort. The only thing that mattered
13 was to have money.
14 Q. To pay your taxes, to produce a receipt accordingly, and to pay
15 for the papers to be issued to you; is that correct?
16 A. Yes, it is.
17 Q. Did you have to pay any fares?
18 A. I did not pay any transportation fares because I was already in
19 Banja Luka.
20 Q. Thank you. I asked you if you knew many people who left in
22 A. Unfortunately, yes. Those people were charged up to
23 170 German marks.
24 Q. Thank you. How -- what about those who didn't have any money?
25 They couldn't go?
1 A. Unfortunately there were quite a few people who remained behind.
2 They perished.
3 Q. Thank you. Now let's look at this mechanism. First you apply to
4 go, then they give you a list of various certificates and documents that
5 you have to provide?
6 A. Yes, that's how it worked.
7 Q. I'm waiting for the interpretation, and I'm asking you to do the
9 And after that, if you have any outstanding tax, you pay it, and
10 you get yourself on a convoy list; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Then you are notified about the next convoy; right?
13 A. Yes, that's how they notified us. But I myself was transferred
14 from the hospital to a prison in Banja Luka.
15 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that later. I'm just asking you, had
16 this not happened, you would have been waiting for the convoy and just
17 waiting for the notification about the convoy. Is that how it was?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How were you notified? On the radio, by post, by personal
21 A. Over the radio.
22 Q. Thank you. So in the absence of any convoys, you stayed in your
23 village up until the 2nd of November; is that right?
24 A. Yes, it is.
25 Q. Thank you. And you said that you went to Sanski Most only on
1 Mondays, because that was the market day; is that correct?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. In your statement, you said that in order for you to sell your
4 produce you needed the money from that to buy other items from the shops.
5 What was the situation with how items were available?
6 A. Yes, there were some staple items available at the time.
7 Q. Was the school working in your area?
8 A. Unfortunately, when Tomo Potalac [phoen] went on that day to
9 Sanski Most to fetch some textbooks, he was killed on the way and that
10 was the day when I was wounded.
11 Q. Where was the school located?
12 A. In my village.
13 Q. Did you remember that the academic year ended somewhat earlier in
14 mid-May but it had started more or less at -- on time in September?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. What was the name of your school?
17 A. It was the Hasan Kikic elementary school.
18 Q. Was that an independent school or was it a part of the education
19 system of Sanski Most?
20 A. It was a branch.
21 Q. So the main school was in Sanski Most and it was called
22 Hasan Kikic; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Can you tell the Chamber who Hasan Kikic was, if you remember?
25 A. I believe that he was a literary author.
1 Q. Of what ethnicity? And am I right if I say that he was a
2 revolutionary, a Communist?
3 A. I didn't go into the matter of his ethnicity. But as far as I
4 can remember, he should have been a Bosniak.
5 Q. Thank you. Who was the teacher in your village?
6 A. A woman of Serb ethnicity by the name of Nada.
7 Q. Later on you mentioned her as having helped you about something
8 in Banja Luka.
9 A. Yes, that's right.
10 Q. Thank you. So on the 2nd of November you set off as usual,
11 because supposedly it was a Monday, and you headed off towards the
12 market; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. On those market days in Sanski Most, were there more people than
16 A. Of course. There was a bigger crowd on every market day.
17 Q. Thank you. At that time there were no restrictions, with the
18 exception of check-points and checks made at those check-points; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You went to Sanski Most, you sold your produce, you went to the
22 shops to buy whatever you needed, and then you headed back home; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. When you were crossing the bridge on the little stream in
1 Harkusa [phoen] you noticed two criminals behind a bush. Is that what
2 you said?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You described this unfortunate event, and it struck me that these
5 two people identified themselves to you as member of some kind of
6 paramilitary; is that correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. They did not -- or, actually, what did they wear? What did they
9 have on their heads? What insignia did they wear?
10 A. One of them was dressed as a military policeman. He had a
11 submachine-gun. He had a military cap and a badge.
12 The other one was in civilian clothes. He had a leather jacket
13 and also a submachine-gun.
14 Q. And one of them had a sort of cockade; is that correct?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. You immediately realized that those were paramilitaries and that,
17 by definition, you knew that they were beyond any civilian or military
18 command or control?
19 A. I didn't realize that those were paramilitaries. But when we
20 were brought to the four men who had already been captured before me,
21 that's when I realized that.
22 Q. Thank you. But you certainly knew that paramilitaries were under
23 nobody's control, and that is what you said in the transcript.
24 A. That was clear to me, and that was how it should be in a
25 normal --
1 Q. Thank you. But at that point you didn't know who they were. You
2 didn't know their names.
3 A. No.
4 Q. Thank you. Later on, an inspector questioned you whether those
5 men were -- actually one of those men was Kajtez, and he asked you to
6 describe him.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. He was one in the civilian clothes; right?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Can you please just pause between questions and answers.
11 As for the one who had cockade on his hat was a man by the name
12 of Vukojevic?
13 A. Supposedly so.
14 Q. Thank you. You immediately saw that they were criminals.
15 A. No, not immediately. I didn't realize they were criminals. It
16 only occurred to me when they searched us before shooting us, and they
17 told us that they were members of Seselj's army.
18 Q. Thank you. But in your statement of 10th February 1993,
19 65 ter 22616, you said that you noticed two criminals behind a bush; is
20 that correct?
21 A. I don't know whether they were criminals, but they were armed
22 with military-issue weapons.
23 Q. Well, then, can we agree that in our region there was no other
24 types of weapons available?
25 A. Well, as far as I know, the criminals always find their way
1 around when it comes to procuring weapons.
2 Q. Thank you. And you said that they lined you up and fired at you;
4 A. Yes. But before that, they confiscated all the means we had,
5 including money. They searched us. They lined us up.
6 Q. Thank you. Do you think that it would have been more lucrative
7 for them to wait until you were coming back from the market, that you
8 would have had more money on you? Was the money the motive?
9 A. I don't know that.
10 Q. But you took the same route to and from the market?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. However, you didn't see exactly who fired?
13 A. I couldn't do that because I had my back turned on them.
14 Q. Thank you. Further on in your statements and testimonies you
15 described in detail how you managed to get through and get some medical
16 aid. First you came to some houses, and then you were driven in a car to
17 the medical centre in Sanski Most. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. You had to go through Gornji Kruhari and Koljak?
20 A. Yes, that's correct.
21 Q. And on that road all the way to Sanski Most nobody stopped you;
22 is that correct?
23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. Were you lying in the car, as a wounded person would normally do?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. The police stopped you in the centre of Sanski Most, asked what
2 happened, and you kindly explained to them, and they kindly directed you
3 to the medical centre; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You were admitted immediately in Sanski Most. They stopped the
6 bleeding. They gave you first aid and asked you about what had happened.
7 Is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. As soon as you reached the medical centre, the doctors came out,
10 they put you on a stretcher, they took you to an A and E room, and that
11 is where the bleeding was stopped.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you were still bleeding at that point; is that correct?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Uh-huh, thank you. Since you have lost a lot of blood, you must
16 have been exhausted?
17 A. Yes, I was.
18 Q. Then the police arrived and took your statement, in which you
19 explained in great detail about what had transpired.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. In your statements, you say that the policemen were polite and
22 fair and caused no problems; is that correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. They themselves told you that that was a group that was operating
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. So after they stopped the bleeding, you were immediately
3 transferred to Prijedor. Is there a bigger hospital in Prijedor?
4 A. The hospital in Prijedor is for treatment, whereas in Sanski Most
5 it's only a medical centre.
6 Q. That's a lower level of medical care.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. They gave you their ambulance and it took you to Prijedor.
9 A. Yes, that's correct.
10 Q. And you were escorted by a policeman whilst in the ambulance.
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. He accompanied you because there could have been extremists on
13 the road and you would have been safer to have a policeman by your side.
14 A. That's what he told me.
15 Q. Thank you. You were immediately admitted at Prijedor hospital at
16 10.00. Risto Stojanovski examined you and said immediately that he has
17 to make a referral to Banja Luka because he was not able to treat you.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. It took you half an hour to reach Banja Luka, and in the next
20 half-hour you found yourself on the operation table; is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And between the period when you were wounded until such time that
23 you underwent surgery, you didn't have any criticism with regard to
24 either doctors or the authorities. However, the first problems occurred
25 after the surgery; is that correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Today, in examination-in-chief, it was mentioned that some people
3 were beaten, that some people were brazen and arrogant. In your
4 statement you said that some people were enraged, but you said the
5 medical staff, the nurses and the doctors, were caring and brought you
7 A. Only two nurses were treating me in a fair way, but that happened
8 only after I had been put into a cell.
9 Q. Thank you. You were still in the hospital but in a ward that was
10 kept under guard; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. It would be helpful to establish who were these individuals who
13 harassed you, what the specific circumstances and reasons were.
14 In your evidence in Brdjanin, at page -- that's 65 ter 92 --
15 90293, I think it has a P, at page 6788 and 6789, you talk about these
16 events; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First, can we have page 6788.
19 65 ter 90273. It's the last P.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's Exhibit P3515.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. You see line 23 on this page? I'll read it for you. This was
24 the question:
25 [In English] [As read] "What about the people who were with you
1 in the cell, how were they treated?
2 "A. Counsel, I know that Ramiz Skoric who was killed in Manjaca,
3 who was wounded in Manjaca, he lost both legs. He said that Manjaca was
4 great and that he was happy about the fact that we were going to be
5 transferred to Manjaca camp. So when they were taken away for
6 questioning, that's why there were told -- that's what they were told."
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in
8 English. Of the transcript, I mean.
9 MR. KARADZIC:
10 Q. "Q. Mr. Stojic, you said you were beaten more than one time.
11 What about the people who were in the cell with you?
12 "A. Yes.
13 "Q. Were they beaten?
14 "A. Yes, they beat everyone. While they were beating the people
15 in cell number 8, we would hear terrible blows. We were already started
16 getting ready in cell number 9 in order to get through this more easily.
17 "Q. Who did the beating?
18 "A. We were beaten by civilians and by soldiers and by anyone
19 who could enter that cell.
20 "Q. When you are referring to soldiers, can you be more
21 specific? What kind of soldiers?
22 "A. Serbian soldiers.
23 "Q. Can you be more specific? Were they regular reservists,
24 military police?
25 "A. Who knows what they were like. I think they were the ones
1 who were sent away who weren't under control. They were out of control."
2 [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 Who sent them away?
4 A. Who do you mean?
5 Q. The last answer, lines 21 and 22, you say:
6 [In English] "I think they were the ones who were send away who
7 weren't under control."
8 [Interpretation] Who sent them away?
9 A. How should I know? There was a guard for the two cells. The
10 doorknob had been pulled out of the door. And when the soldier who stood
11 guard had to open the door, he would insert the doorknob, open the door,
12 and then let the person in.
13 Q. But what did you mean when you said that they were sent away?
14 Where were they sent away from and who sent them?
15 A. I really don't know what you're referring to.
16 Q. Thank you. Well, this is what you said, and I wanted to clarify
17 this bit.
18 You also say that Nurse Ljubislava [phoen] did not behave
19 professionally, whereas the others did and they brought you food.
20 A. If she was not unprofessional or not, I don't know about that.
21 But I do know that she was brazen and impolite.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stojic, I'll read out how you answered in the
23 trial against Mr. Brdjanin.
24 The question was like this: "Can you be even more specific?
25 Were they regular reservists, military police?"
1 You were talking about the -- those who beat you at the cell.
2 And your answer is like this:
3 "Who knows what they were like. I think they were the ones who
4 were sent away ..."
5 Do you remember what you meant by saying "the ones who were sent
7 A. Yes, I do remember. Whenever the guard would open the door,
8 whoever wanted to step into the cell, be it a civilian or a soldier,
9 could do so. That's what I meant.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. As far as you personally are concerned, you were exposed to these
15 physical harassments on two occasions; is that right?
16 A. That's what I remember.
17 Q. On one occasion it was a drunkard who beat you, from Uzice;
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the second time was when you were slapped about by a guard;
21 is that right?
22 A. That's right. But he also beat me in the stomach, the one that I
23 mentioned earlier, the soldier who entered the cell. He kicked me with
24 his military boot.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look 65 ter 22618 in
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Your other statement.
4 This is a 2000 statement. It's 65 ter 22618. Page 11.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have a look at that page,
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Have a look at the fourth paragraph, which reads:
9 "The first time I was beat up was by a person from the street who
10 was drunk and he called me a Ustasha."
11 Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So he wasn't a soldier. He was just a person, a hobo, if you
14 will, who was drunk?
15 A. Well, I did say that everyone was allowed admittance there.
16 Whoever wanted to gain entrances, be it a man, a woman, soldier, or
17 civilian, they would be let through by the guard.
18 Q. And he called you by a derogatory term, the Ustasha. Is that how
19 you understood it?
20 A. Yes. It was a derogatory term. When I -- this happened right
21 after I was transferred from the surgery room down to the ward.
22 Q. So this was the prison ward of the hospital where people were
23 brought over from elsewhere?
24 A. Well, I don't know about others being brought in from the
25 outside. I know that those of us who happened to be in the hospital and
1 who were not Serbs were taken to that ward.
2 Q. I am a bit puzzled by the letter sent by Bishop Komarica related
3 to your stay at the hospital. That's 16817, 65 ter document. Where did
4 Bishop Komarica get the information about you being in the hospital?
5 A. I don't know where he got that information from. I do remember,
6 though, that when I was released from detention I was given a letter and
7 a visa in order to cross over into Croatia.
8 Q. Thank you. But somebody did let him know that you were in the
10 A. That's right. But I don't know who it was.
11 Q. In his letter, he stated that as of the 2nd of November up until
12 the 11th of December you were in the hospital and not in prison; is that
14 A. He may have worded it that way. But as of the 9th of November I
15 was in a prison cell, up until the 11th of December.
16 Q. Let's clear this matter up. Is this a section of the hospital
17 under guard?
18 A. It is part of the hospital. It was on the urological ward. And
19 the prison cells were in rooms 8 and 9, hospital rooms.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the Brdjanin transcript
22 on our screens again. Page 6808.
23 Well, yes, this is Bishop Komarica's letter.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. He was a bishop in Banja Luka, was he not?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. As you left the hospital, you were taken to the Catholic charity
3 organisation, Caritas, which existed with this parish; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have the Brdjanin
6 transcript, page 6808.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. In this part of your evidence, you're discussing the issue,
9 whether this was a hospital or a prison. Based on the document that was
10 shown to you, you were in a hospital. And in line 21, you say:
11 [In English] [As read] "On the basis of this document, where you
12 can see all three men were in hospital in Banja Luka, and their lives
13 were endangered because the witnesses were inconvenient -- are
14 inconvenient witnesses to crime in the municipality of Sanski Most. The
15 above-named people are from Skrljevita municipality of Sanski Most."
16 [Interpretation] So the document which was shown to you read that
17 you were inconvenient witnesses to crimes in Sanski Most. And was it
18 clear to you that this was the basis on which you were held, and was it
19 possible for a criminal also from Sanski Most to get into that part of
20 the hospital where you were held to cause you harm?
21 A. Well, how am I able to know that?
22 Q. Let's read on. The signature says - and if we can have the next
24 [In English] "If that's a hospital in normal conditions, as it
25 should be according to the conventions of the International Committee of
1 the Red Cross, then I -- in such a case, our lives would not have been in
3 "Q. I'm not arguing the conditions that may have prevailed in
4 that hospital, but my only question was were you in the hospital itself
5 and not in a prison of Tunjice, at least on the basis of this document?
6 "A. I was in urology ward in hospital, in cell number 9. First
7 of all, I was in cell number 8."
8 [Interpretation] Therefore, it follows from your answer that you
9 were aware of the fact that you were held there as a witness and not as a
10 criminal. Is that right?
11 A. Well, I don't know that. I don't know if I was held there as a
12 witness. I know that I had never been a criminal, and I hope that I will
13 never be one.
14 Q. Thank you. Upon your release from the hospital on the
15 11th of December, and until the 14th of December, you must have been
16 somewhere. You must have spent these two or three days somewhere. Where
17 was it?
18 A. In the Caritas offices in Banja Luka.
19 Q. Thank you. These were offices belonging to the church, because
20 it is a religious charity organisation, Caritas. Did you go to church
21 during that period?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. That's in the very heart of Banja Luka, is it not?
24 A. Yes, the very centre.
25 Q. Thank you. Let's see how you went on to describe the arrival of
1 inspectors to -- of the inspector to the Banja Luka hospital when you
2 gave a statement to him.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And can we have transcript
4 page 6899 of this -- 6799 of this same document. Thank you. 6799, line
6 MR. KARADZIC:
7 Q. "And afterwards, at the Banja Luka hospital, this other
8 inspector, Mile Dosen, that you mentioned today, he also arrived, didn't
10 "A. Yes, he did.
11 "Q. And you told him, too, exactly what happened?
12 "A. Yes, I did. That's right."
13 [Interpretation] Is it true that Mile Dosen told you, after
14 having questioned you, that you should not worry and that everything
15 would be fine?
16 A. That's true. That's what he told me. But he said that while I
17 was still upstairs in the surgical ward, before I was detained.
18 Q. Very well. He asked you about the killing of all of those
19 Croats, and he asked you if you knew Dane Kajtez; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Did you know Dane Kajtez or did he suggest to you that that could
22 have been him and asked you to describe him?
23 A. Well, he did talk about him and describe him to me, and he asked
24 me if he was wearing a leather jacket. I confirmed that he did.
25 Q. And then he asked you what he looked like, and so on, so that you
1 would be able to confirm or deny that it was this particular person; is
2 that right?
3 A. Yes, that is right.
4 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that after the statement to
5 Inspector Dosen an indictment was issued against Kajtez and his
6 associates, his co-perpetrators?
7 A. I did hear that, yes.
8 Q. Thank you. But soon after, you left the territory of
9 Republika Srpska and you did not have direct information about what was
10 going on regarding the trial of Kajtez and others; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And in that period from 1993 to 1995, you didn't see Kajtez; is
13 that right?
14 A. Well, how could I have seen him when I wasn't even in the
15 territory of Republika Srpska?
16 Q. Thank you. You were the only person who survived that incident;
17 is that right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So can we then say that you were a valuable eye-witness, as far
20 as the court authorities were concerned?
21 A. Well, I don't know that.
22 Q. However, you were absent for a long time as the chief witness,
23 and you were not available to them at that time.
24 A. I don't know that.
25 Q. And had they called you before the peace was signed to come and
1 testify, would you have done that?
2 A. I have told already this Court that I wouldn't have, but I went
3 back on my word and I went in 2006.
4 Q. Yes, I did ask the question and I said after the peace was
5 signed, because, of course, you would have been afraid and cautious about
6 moving around.
7 At the time, there were no diplomatic relations between Republika
8 Srpska and the Republic of Croatia; is that right.
9 A. Yes, that is right.
10 Q. And do you agree that at the time the post wasn't working and it
11 wasn't easy to send a letter directly to Croatia, or a parcel?
12 A. I don't know that.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This page -- the same
14 document, but can we now look at page 6810-- 001.
15 And can you please look at line 2. I'm going to read in English
16 so that it can be translated correctly.
17 [In English] [As read] "Do you know whether there were any
18 diplomatic relations or any other relations between Croatia and Republika
19 Srpska or whether the postal services functioned between Republika Srpska
20 and Croatia?
21 "A. The postal services did not function, but there were
22 humanitarian organisations that were functioning.
23 "Q. When you came to Croatia, did you send your address to
24 Republika Srpska?
25 "A. To whom would I do that?"
1 [Interpretation] The police organs in Republika Srpska at the
2 time did not have your new address in Croatia; is that correct?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Mr. Stojic, once again, I would like to express my sympathies and
5 my solidarity to you. I don't have any more questions, since the -- the
6 statements have not been tendered or admitted, and I would ask you to
7 accept that I am completely on your side and that I wish you the very
8 best in your path to recovery. Thank you. I have no further questions.
9 A. Thank you, sir. Your words are touching.
10 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
11 Re-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
12 Q. Mr. Stojic, just one question. Mr. Karadzic asked -- put it to
13 you whether you were detained in the Banja Luka hospital as a prisoner or
14 a witness, and you said that -- or he put to you that you could possibly
15 be -- have been detained there as a witness, and you said you don't know
17 Do you recall that question and answer?
18 A. I do. Unfortunately, I was not detained as a witness, but as a
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 16823, please.
21 Q. Mr. Stojic, is this a copy of your medical discharge letter that
22 you received from the Banja Luka hospital?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. If we could go to the top of the -- the top of the page, we can
25 see something has been whited out in the top right-hand corner.
1 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we go to the second page of this document
2 in e-court. And if we can blow up the top left-hand corner, the writing
3 in the top left-hand corner.
4 Q. What does that writing say? Are you able to read that,
5 Mr. Stojic, which is on the -- written on the -- the front of this
6 discharge form?
7 A. It says "zarob," which is abbreviated for "zarobljen,"
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we also look at that, please?
10 MS. SUTHERLAND:
11 Q. Did you -- did you know who wrote that notation on the top of the
13 A. I don't know who wrote that. Probably the staff in the hospital,
14 in that prison.
15 Q. So it was on the top of the document when you received this
16 discharge form?
17 A. That is right.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to read that. I don't
22 read that like that. I cannot read it like that.
23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland, why is this page the other way
25 MS. SUTHERLAND: It's also the correct way, Your Honour. But
1 if --
2 Q. Mr. Stojic, do you have the original of that document that you
3 provided the other day?
4 A. I do have it, yes.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, Mr. Stojic provided the original
6 document, and it was rescanned on both ways. The front -- on the front
7 of the document, it's white-painted out. But if you turn the document
8 over, you can actually see what's written here.
9 JUDGE KWON: Doesn't -- does the Defence wish to examine the
11 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Usher, could you take the document from the
12 witness, please.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
14 Could the usher bring the document to the Bench first.
15 Further Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Mr. Stojic, with all due respect, I am a doctor, and I am
18 familiar with these discharge papers. This here at the top in no way can
19 be an integral part of this medical document; is that right? Because
20 what the doctor had to write, he wrote.
21 JUDGE KWON: That's not a proper question. But --
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stojic, do you know who wrote this part?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I said I don't know. This is the
25 discharge paper or document that I received, like that.
1 JUDGE KWON: And do you know who white-painted this part?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know that either, because
3 that's how I received the discharge document.
4 JUDGE KWON: Do you have any question, Mr. Karadzic?
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I would just like to ask Mr. Stojic whether this part that was
7 filled in by the doctor and signed by him, does it say anywhere that you
8 were in prison?
9 A. Well, yes, at the top corner it says "zarob," which is
10 abbreviated for "zarobljen," "captured," and then this has been whited
11 out. And I have documents from the International Committee of the
12 Red Cross that I was in prison.
13 Q. But other than this handwritten and erased part, does it not say
14 that this is surgery, the urology department, all of the work was
15 described, there was a lot of things that were done in the area of the
16 stomach and the hand, and that's described in detail; is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.
20 JUDGE KWON: So I take it you're tendering this document.
21 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour. And I would seek to have the
22 translation revised, because it refers in the translation to the
23 witness's right arm and I want the interpreters to translate - the
24 translators, I'm sorry - to check that.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ratari sinistri [phoen], in Latin
1 it states, would be the left hand.
2 JUDGE KWON: I take your word that this will be revised. With
3 that understanding, we'll admit it in full.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
5 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit P3527, Your Honours.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Stojic. That concludes your
8 evidence. On behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole, I would
9 like to thank you for your coming to The Hague again to give it. Now you
10 are free to go.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much, Your Honours.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Stojic. We'll rise all together.
13 We'll have a break till 11.00.
14 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me.
15 JUDGE KWON: Oh, yes, just a second.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
17 Then the witness can be excused.
18 [The witness withdrew]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. With respect to the next
21 proposed Prosecution witness, we're not in a position to be able to
22 cross-examine him today because of the lack of notice that we had that he
23 would be testifying.
24 The Prosecution did do a very good job of trying to deal with a
25 very difficult situation, and they did, at the end of Friday, tell us
1 that there was some potential that Mr. Tupajic would not be present but
2 that they were trying to get him here. So we prepared for Mr. Tupajic.
3 And then on Friday evening, at 4.45, we did receive for the first time an
4 amalgamated statement of Mr. Mesanovic. But we didn't have time to
5 prepare for the cross-examination of Mr. Mesanovic, and in fact
6 Dr. Karadzic hasn't even brought to court with him any of the materials
7 for that witness.
8 So we propose, if the Chamber would be willing, that we hear
9 whatever direct examination that's offered by the Prosecution and then
10 tomorrow morning we have the cross-examination of that witness.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER: Well, let me just note, Mr. President, I -- I --
13 well, the simple thing I want to know is that if the Court is inclined to
14 grant the request, then I would not suggest we move forward to hear the
15 extremely limited time that would be involved in direct examination. In
16 fact, one of the wrinkles I was going to mention is that Ms. Sutherland
17 needs to check with the witness over the break because of the accelerated
18 nature of his arrival and efforts to complete review of the material as
19 to whether or not there was going to be a slight delay involved in moving
20 him forward.
21 So if the Court is going to grant the request, then I think
22 there's no -- no point in moving forward on his testimony today in
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Given the circumstances, the Chamber is minded to
1 grant the Defence motion.
2 But before we adjourn, I will issue an oral ruling with regard to
3 the accused's motion to -- motion for reclassification of ex parte filing
4 with respect to Witness KDZ532, filed on 28th of September, 2011.
5 The Chamber notes the Prosecution's response filed on
6 29th of September, 2011, not opposing the motion. The Chamber hereby
7 grants the motion and orders that the confidential and ex parte
8 Appendix D to the Prosecution's motion for delayed disclosure for KDZ456,
9 KDZ493, KDZ532, and KDZ531, and variation of protective measures for
10 KDZ489, filed on 8th of May, 2009, be disclosed to the accused and
11 reclassified as confidential.
12 Unless there are any matters to be raised, the hearing is now
13 adjourned. And we'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.
14 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 10.31 a.m.,
15 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 4th day of
16 October, 2011, at 9.00 a.m.