Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19906

 1                           Wednesday, 5 October 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning everyone.

 7                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I understand, Mr. Harvey, you have someone to

 9     introduce to us.

10             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Yes, I do.

11     Ms. Emilija Beljic, B-e-l-j-i-c, has joined as a legal assistant on the

12     stand-by team.  Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Good morning to you, Ms. Beljic.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, I was told that you have

16     15 minutes to conclude your cross-examination.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.

18             Good morning to everyone.

19                           WITNESS:  KDZ017 [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Witness.

23        A.   Good morning.

24        Q.   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 19907

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted) I believe?

 3        A.   No, never again.

 4        Q.   Very well.  Can I ask you to have a look at a map.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D4275.

 6     1D4275, in e-court.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Meanwhile, do you agree, Mr. Witness, that Foca was one of the

 9     municipalities of the former Yugoslavia with the largest surface area?

10        A.   Yes, in terms of square metres, yes.

11        Q.   So how do you view the fact that such a vast municipality should

12     have had too little room for both the Serbs and the Muslims?

13        A.   Well, I think that question is addressed to the wrong person.

14        Q.   Can you please look at the right-hand-most side of the map, there

15     where the -- so the very east.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have that zoomed in, and can

17     we have the -- can you scroll down, please.  Further down, please.  There

18     we have it.  Foca.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   With this irregular shape jutting into Montenegro.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be enlarged further, please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do we agree, Witness --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It can be further enlarged, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19908

 1        Q.   Do you agree that the villages are more or less clear-cut, they

 2     are either Serb or Muslim, though there are a number of mixed villages as

 3     well?

 4        A.   Quite a few of them were mixed, in fact.  As for the purely

 5     Muslim and purely Serb villages, I don't think there were many of those.

 6        Q.   But let's say over 75 per cent, 80 per cent were villages that

 7     are illustrated in green here which were either Serb or Muslim; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Do you now recognise which villages these are, perhaps the areas

10     jutting into Montenegro, are they Celebici, or?

11        A.   Yes, in the direction of Cajnice.

12        Q.   And can you tell that the town itself is quite mixed as well?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Could you please use the electronic pen that the usher will show

15     you and mark for us the areas as they were controlled by the different

16     parties on the 4th and 5th of April?

17        A.   Well, I can't give you the information in relation to villages.

18     I can draw the line in the town proper between Donje Polje and the area

19     held by the Serbs.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So can we zoom in further onto the

22     purple area denoting the urban zone.  Where it says "Foca."  Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you use a blue pen and draw the flow of the Drina across the

25     town, if you can?

Page 19909

 1        A.   Well, it should be flowing this way in the direction of Gorazde.

 2        Q.   I'm afraid that you've missed the entire town.

 3        A.   I'm looking at these letters as if they were the core of the

 4     town.

 5        Q.   But don't you think that this purple area is the town centre?

 6        A.   Is this the area you're referring to?

 7        Q.   Yes.

 8        A.   Well, the Drina would then definitely run this way.

 9        Q.   And as for the town itself?

10        A.   Well, of course, through the heart of the town.  We could say

11     that it runs along the entire town.

12        Q.   Very well.  Where the health centre is, where the bus station is,

13     the municipality building, those areas, under whose control were they

14     when you were there on the 4th and 5th of April?

15        A.   The area stretching from the health centre to Gornji Ceotinski

16     bridge all the way to Donji Ceotinski bridge, along the Ceotina river,

17     that area was held by the Muslims.  Now, the area complete with the bus

18     station and everything else was held by the Serbs.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And that was the case when you left on the 12th;

20     right?

21        A.   When I left on the 12th, the town had fallen.  So I don't know

22     about that.  So if it had fallen, it means that it wasn't liberated and

23     that there weren't any Muslims in that period of time.

24        Q.   Let's be more specific:  The urban core and the general down-town

25     area was held by Serbs; right?

Page 19910

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   So how did the town fall?  How did it come about?  Who attacked

 3     the town centre?

 4        A.   Well, the Serbs did from the neighbouring hills, from the hills

 5     overlooking the town, until the soldiers got into town.  This was some

 6     100 to 200 metres away from my home that I saw soldiers walk in,

 7     strolling in.  Now, as for the areas further away from my neighbourhood,

 8     when they fell, I don't know.

 9        Q.   Let's clarify for the Trial Chamber:  Donje Polje is an area of

10     town further down the river; is that right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And the urban core of Foca had been controlled by the Serbs all

13     along, from the beginning; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Well, who attacked the town, then?

16        A.   Well, the Serbs did.

17        Q.   How would they be able to attack themselves?

18        A.   They attacked the part of town that was held by the Muslims.  As

19     for the urban core, Donje Polje and all the areas bordering the

20     central Foca had been inhabited by Muslims but they had left by that

21     point.

22        Q.   Mr. Witness, the Serbs controlled something that could be called

23     Foca proper, or Foca town, so the centre of town.  As the fighting

24     developed, the Serbs weren't able to attack Foca because they controlled

25     the major part of the town, did they not?

Page 19911

 1        A.   Well, a part of town they did.  There were -- there was an area

 2     that was held by the Muslims.  And the central area that we mentioned was

 3     held by the Serbs.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I don't know if this

 6     map was helpful at all.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it will assist the Chamber.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do agree.  We will not be

 9     tendering it.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Witness, after your testimony and your mention of Mr. Ostojic,

12     the OTP conducted an interview with Velibor Ostojic, who has passed away

13     in the meantime.  I'd like to remind you --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And it's 1D4441, for those who

15     would like to refer to it.  In e-court, 1D-- oh, I'm sorry, it hasn't

16     been uploaded yet.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   We looked at it when you mentioned Mr. Ostojic, but it's not been

19     uploaded yet.  Let me remind you:  Mr. Ostojic said to Ms. Karsten that

20     this is something that he never said, at page 37 of the interview, that

21     he had never said that and that he absolutely denied ever saying words

22     that were attributed to him.  What do you have to say to that?

23        A.   It's his private statement.  And as for my statement, I stand by

24     it.

25        Q.   He says that, at the time, he attend the funeral of his father at

Page 19912

 1     Borje, near Celebici, and that that was not his usual rhetoric.  And

 2     would you agree that it wasn't, because he was a professor of languages

 3     and literature, a man of repute?

 4        A.   Well, it was precisely these men of repute who demonstrated the

 5     fact that they've lost all their dignity.  I stand by what I said.  I

 6     have nothing further to say.

 7        Q.   And you heard other people hear that; right?  You didn't hear it.

 8        A.   I heard his voice myself as I was at my neighbour's, precisely as

 9     I explained it in my evidence.  I had occasion to hear his voice on

10     television, radio, et cetera.  What I told you yesterday was the context

11     behind the meeting of the SDS with the municipal leadership, i.e., a

12     president of the Assembly, president of the Executive Board.  That was

13     something that I heard, that he walked into the meeting and stated what I

14     said in my statement.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Fortunately, the two who had occasion to hear it are

16     still alive and well, and we'll be able to hear them.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, Mr. Ostojic

18     testified in the Krajisnik case.  He was meant to testify in this case as

19     well, unfortunately he passed away.  The Defence will kindly ask that

20     Mr. Ostojic's evidence from the Krajisnik case be admitted under

21     92 quater, if you find good grounds for it.

22             Thank you, Mr. Witness, I've exhausted my 15 minutes.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, I don't think Mr. Karadzic meant to

25     file that motion orally now.  I think that it's coming in writing.

Page 19913

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  You've already indicated you

 2     don't want to receive those motions until the Defence case commences, so

 3     we'll do it at that time.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff, do you have any re-examination?

 6             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour.  Nothing arises.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Thank you, sir.  That concludes your evidence.  On behalf of this

 9     Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to thank you for your

10     coming to The Hague again.  Now you are free to go.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank.  We will break for your convenience.  And

13     we'll about -- for 5 minutes.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Just one point, and that relates to the

17     document that was yesterday MFI'd, and that is 1D4429.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  We have meanwhile located the full version,

20     and Mr. Reid has uploaded it.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And do we have the full translation as well?

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, there was no translation to it.  So

23     it -- but what my proposal would be, to replace the short version that

24     was tendered yesterday with the full version which shows exactly where it

25     comes from and first page to last page.

Page 19914

 1             JUDGE KWON:  How extensive is the full version, how many pages?

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  It's just one more page in the beginning and

 3     I think a few pages at the end.  So it's not extensively bigger, but I

 4     didn't really -- I wasn't really able to check because I only received

 5     this information just now.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             I take it there's no position from the Defence.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't object.  Yes, thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.  That will be

10     done.

11             We'll take a break for five minutes.  Resume at 25 past.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13                           --- Break taken at 9.18 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 9.29 a.m.

15                           [The witness entered court]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, sir.  Will you kindly take the solemn

17     declaration, please.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

19     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  ASIM EGRLIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

23             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

24             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, president.

25                           Examination by Mr. Tieger:

Page 19915

 1        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Can we begin with a quick formality:  Can you

 2     state your name for the record, please.

 3        A.   My name is Asim Egrlic.

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please be asked to come closer

 5     to the microphones.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Mr. -- I believe you heard that, Mr. Egrlic.  If you can --

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Perhaps the usher can assist in moving the witness's

 9     chair a bit closer to the microphone.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Egrlic, we'll take a break every hour, and

11     please don't hesitate to let us know if you need a break at any time.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, can you confirm that you have testified before this

16     Tribunal on previous occasions, in particular in the case of

17     Prosecutor versus Krajisnik on the 27th through the 30th of July, 2004.

18        A.   Yes.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, the Krajisnik testimony, as the court

20     is aware, is 65 ter 22085.

21        Q.   And, Mr. Egrlic, can you confirm that you have reviewed that

22     testimony, that it accurately reflects your testimony to the Tribunal,

23     and that you would provide the same evidence to the Court if asked about

24     the same matters today.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19916

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I would tender 22085.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That is admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3570, Your Honours.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I can either proceed to read the summary,

 5     Mr. President, or to address any issues related to associated exhibits.

 6     As the Court prefers.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

 9        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, I'm going to read a brief summary of your evidence.

10     It doesn't purport to capture all of your evidence or to be evidence

11     itself, it's just a quick summary.

12             MR. TIEGER:  The witness was a member of the SDA and president of

13     the Executive Board of the SDA in Kljuc municipality.  His evidence

14     covers activities and members of the SDA and SDS in Kljuc.  Leading

15     figures in the Kljuc SDS included Veljko Kondic and Jovo Banjac.

16     Vinko Kondic, a relative of Veljko Kondic, was chief of the SJB.  In

17     addition, the witness discusses the MBO, the Muslim Bosniak association,

18     which was headed by Omer Filipovic.

19             Mr. Egrlic describes events leading to the take-over of Kljuc on

20     the 7th of May, 1992, when flags of the Serbian Republic were placed on

21     buildings, including Kljuc's incorporation by SDS authorities into the

22     Autonomous Region of Krajina, the arrival in Kljuc of JNA units, SDS

23     demands for change of police insignia, and heightened anxieties and fears

24     of the Muslim population.

25             The witness also discusses events after the take-over, including

Page 19917

 1     dismissal of Muslims from employment, restrictions on movement, demands

 2     for disarming of non-Serbs, and, commencing in late May, attacks on

 3     Muslim villages by Bosnian Serb forces, expulsion of Muslims from Kljuc,

 4     and destruction of mosques.  The witness also discusses the relationship

 5     between the local SDS authorities and the regional and republic level SDS

 6     or RS leadership, including with regard to the implementation of policy

 7     to move people to achieve a limited presence of minorities.

 8             The witness himself was arrested on 28 May 1992 and taken to the

 9     police building and to Stara Gradiska prison.  He was beaten at both

10     locations.  He was ultimately transferred to Manjaca, and finally to

11     Batkovic camp.

12             The witness also describes the requirement imposed by RS

13     authorities to relinquish property to the state in order to escape the

14     dangerous circumstances, and of mass graves in Kljuc containing the

15     bodies of Muslim victims of the attacks on villages by the Bosnian Serb

16     forces.

17             That concludes the summary, Mr. President.  I have a very few

18     additional questions for Mr. Egrlic.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just one question, Mr. Tieger.  I checked the

20     92 ter transcript, 22-- Exhibit P3570.  I see Judge Agius, seems to be

21     Brdjanin.  Could you sort it out in the meantime.  You are tendering

22     Krajisnik transcript.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Correct, Mr. President.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I take it that can be corrected.  Let's

25     proceed, Mr. Tieger.

Page 19918

 1             MR. TIEGER:  I'll check both the numbers and the submissions, of

 2     course.  I don't think there was any misunderstanding among the parties.

 3        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, as indicated, I had a very few additional questions

 4     for you.  First, I'd like you to look at the photographs in front of you.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President and Your Honours, I'm asking the

 6     witness to look at a hard-copy set of eight photographs depicting a

 7     cemetery in Velagici and individual headstones in the cemetery.  One of

 8     those eight photographs, as indicated in the hard copy, is already in

 9     evidence as P00618.  The 65 ter numbers of the seven remaining

10     photographs are 65 ter 23473 through -79.  They are not on the

11     Prosecution's 65 ter list and we're seeking leave to add those.  I have

12     discussed this matter with the Defence and they have no objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's granted.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  And just to be perfectly clear:  We want

15     to use this hard copy for demonstrative purposes, and we'll seek

16     admission of the actual individual photographs, which are uploaded in

17     e-court.

18        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, turning your attention to these photographs.  We see

19     a number of headstones, including a headstone for someone aged 93;

20     someone aged 90; someone of the age of 85; someone of the age of 80;

21     someone of the age of 71; of a woman, Selva Draganovic; and of a

22     5-year-old child, Denis Becirovic.

23             First of all, Mr. Egrlic, we see above those names the word

24     "Sehid"; can you tell us what that refers to on those tombstones?

25        A.   Let me first say that these are photographs of headstones that

Page 19919

 1     were placed on the graves in Velagici where people were buried who had

 2     been found at Laniste, in a locality known as Babina Dolina.  They were

 3     exhumed there and buried here, hence the headstones, and we can tell that

 4     these were victims of various ages, from children, women, to the elderly.

 5     The term "Sehid" means that these were victims of war.  In other words,

 6     these people were killed during the war and they died a violent death,

 7     which is something that sets them apart from the other deceased in the

 8     cemetery.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Egrlic.  I know that you indicated in your

10     evidence that you attended exhumations in Kljuc - that's as 4810

11     through -14.  Let me ask you, then:  When you say that people -- people

12     in the graves at Velagici who were buried had been found at Laniste at a

13     location at Babina Dolina and they were exhumed, is that a reference to

14     one of the mass graves found in Kljuc?

15        A.   Yes.  There were two mass graves at Laniste, one in Bezdana cave

16     and the other in a valley called Babina Dolina.  In the latter, they had

17     been buried by earth-moving machinery; and in the former, rubbish was

18     thrown atop of them.  As they were exhumed, autopsies were conducted and

19     then they were buried in the cemeteries closest to their native areas.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And did you learn where those people had been killed?

21        A.   I learned that these individuals from Velagici had been killed at

22     the very site where now they lie buried, where a primary school used to

23     be located.  From there they were transported by trucks to a location

24     some 10 kilometres away, where they were placed in a mass grave, and I'm

25     speaking about Babina Dolina.  Likewise, in the village of Biljani, the

Page 19920

 1     local population was shot, executed, loaded onto trucks, and transported

 2     to a cave at Laniste.  It is the so-called Bezdana cave; bottomless, in

 3     other words.  Some 25 metres deep.  Subsequently, they were given a

 4     proper burial, the former ones in Velagici and the latter ones in

 5     Bijeljina.

 6        Q.   Thank you, sir.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I tender 23473 through -79.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  They will be admitted.  We shall give just one

 9     number --

10             MR. TIEGER:  That's fine, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  -- if you agree.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, of course.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. TIEGER:  And for the record:  I think this will be corrected,

15     but on page 14, line 12, it's -- the last word is, here, listed as

16     "Bijeljina," but I believe the witness said "Biljani."

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, the photographs will be

19     Exhibit P3571.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  If we can call up P03514 MFI.

21        Q.   As this is being called up, Mr. Egrlic, I just note that this is

22     a document dated the 21st of July, 1992, a decision of the War Presidency

23     of the Municipal Assembly of Kljuc, on the termination of employment of

24     all employees who have failed to respond to the general mobilisation.

25             MR. TIEGER:  And, Mr. Registrar, this is former 65 ter 00848, if

Page 19921

 1     that's of any assistance.  Let's try the number again: P03514 MFI.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  It was noted as just "514."

 3             MR. TIEGER:

 4        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, I know you've had an opportunity to see this document

 5     previously.  Can I ask you, first, whether the contents of this document

 6     are consistent with what happened in Kljuc regarding terminations of the

 7     employment of Muslims?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   The document says -- refers to termination of all employees.  Can

10     you tell the Court whether in Kljuc employees of both Muslim and Serb

11     nationality were terminated or not?

12        A.   As far as I know, all the Muslims were laid off.  Their

13     employment was terminated.  And I don't know a single case of a Serb

14     being dismissed.

15        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, this document is dated the 21st of July, 1992.  Can

16     you tell us whether the termination of employment of Muslims commenced

17     thereafter or whether it had been on-going previously and this document

18     refers to events that have already taken place?

19        A.   I know that the majority of Muslims had been dismissed towards

20     the end of May, which means that approximately up until the 1st of June

21     most of them had lost their jobs.  This decision is dated the

22     21st of July, 1992, and basically it covered retroactively what had

23     already been effected.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I'd like to next call up 65 ter 23482.  This is a

Page 19922

 1     28 October 1992 decision on terminating the employment of Enisa Filipovic

 2     as of 27 May 1992.

 3             And, Mr. President, we would seek leave to add this to the 65 ter

 4     list as well.  Again, I've discussed this with the Defence and there is

 5     no objection.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 8        Q.   Mr. Witness, I understand you've had an opportunity to see this

 9     document as well, previously.  Can you tell us --

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   -- whether this document is related to the previous document you

12     just saw and whether it is another example of a --

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   Okay.  And does this also relate to a termination that had

15     already taken place?

16        A.   Yes.  One can see from the document, because it says so, that the

17     employment was terminated on the 27th of May, 1992, and the document was

18     drafted on the 28th of October, 1992, with a reference to the decision

19     that we previously saw of the 21st of July, 1992.  Therefore, this

20     document also refers to something that had already taken place.

21        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Egrlic.

22             MR. TIEGER:  I tender 23482, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Before we come to that document, I

24     should ask Mr. Robinson:  When we marked for identification the previous

25     document, Exhibit P3514, and my record shows it's P3490 all MFI'd,

Page 19923

 1     Mr. Karadzic's submission was unclear as to whether Defence is

 2     challenging the authenticity of those documents or not.  While he's said

 3     that the contents may have been falsified, he said he would not challenge

 4     the document.  Could you expand on that?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, it was my understanding that

 6     Dr. Karadzic did challenge the document which was -- which bore a stamp

 7     but no signature from Kljuc.  And it was challenging the authenticity of

 8     that.  Subsequently, the Prosecution showed another document which the

 9     next -- which was the previous number in the serial, which also had a

10     stamp and did have a signature but was not -- the signature was not

11     identified as anyone's, and so I think he also intends to maintain the

12     objection of authenticity as to that document as well.

13             So it's for the Chamber, I think, to determine whether or not

14     there's sufficient circumstances of indicia of authenticity to decide

15     whether to grant or overrule his objection, but I think he wishes to

16     maintain the objection of authenticity to those two documents.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I would simply note in that regard

19     that when asked by the Court about that, the accused didn't make

20     reference to signatures but did say that he considered that this

21     document, 117, which is numbered 117, should have been sent to some

22     companies.  Now we see, in fact, the document that does illustrate

23     precisely that, that the document was sent to the company with a specific

24     reference to the decision of July 21st.  So in considering the

25     determination of admissibility, of course, we would ask the Court to take

Page 19924

 1     that into account.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Robinson, as to the admission of this

 3     document, 65 ter number 23482?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, we don't have an objection to this.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3572, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, so you're going to raise this issue of

 8     marked for identification later on, or --

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, I --

10             JUDGE KWON:  -- by the evidence of this witness you move to admit

11     those documents in full?

12             MR. TIEGER:  We do renew that position and that proffer based on

13     the arguments previously made, based upon the additional evidence

14     presented today, and we can -- we're in the Court's hands.  I think they

15     should be admitted forthwith.  But if the Court wants further argument,

16     we can provide that.

17             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will consider that, consider your

18     motion, Mr. Tieger.  Please proceed, Mr. Tieger.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  And can we next call up 65 ter 23472.

20             Again, Mr. President, we ask leave to add 23472.  This is a

21     number of documents of precisely the same type that are, in fact, related

22     to one of the associated exhibits that we anticipate will be admitted.

23        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, in your earlier testimony, you referred to

24     65 ter 00864, which was the record of the Kljuc municipal commission for

25     gathering information on resettlement of population, which referred to

Page 19925

 1     your wife's departure from Kljuc and what happened to the family's

 2     property.  That's at transcript page 4766.  And you also testified that

 3     this was something that had to be done by everyone who had immovable

 4     property because it was a precondition for leaving Kljuc municipality.

 5             Now, I know you've seen the various records contained in this

 6     exhibit.  If you look at the first one, referring to Mr. Sistek, can you

 7     first confirm you had a chance to look at the other nine records, and

 8     tell us whether they're consistent with your information that the same

 9     declaration that your wife had to make had to be made by all Muslims in

10     Kljuc as a precondition for departing?

11        A.   Yes.  First I saw the document signed by my wife, and after that

12     I saw the other documents as well.  I know that all the Bosniaks who had

13     to leave the municipality of Kljuc signed, under duress, a declaration

14     stating that they would leave all their immovable property to

15     Republika Srpska because that was a precondition for them to be allowed

16     to depart from the area of Kljuc municipality.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And so when the document says, as it does in the

18     declaration relating to your wife, that "my family and I are leaving

19     Kljuc municipality voluntarily," is that accurate or not?  Were people

20     leaving voluntarily?

21        A.   That is not true.  Everybody left under coercion.  It was a

22     matter of life and death, and people decided to relinquish their

23     property.  Regardless of what it says here, that they did it voluntarily,

24     that is not true, because they were forced to do that.  And people left

25     their property in this manner in order to save their lives.

Page 19926

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Egrlic.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  That concludes my examination-in-chief,

 3     Mr. President.  And I would tender 23472.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  This will be admitted.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3573, Your Honours.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And shall we deal with the associated exhibits.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Certainly.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Are there any objections, Mr. Robinson?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a couple of items, Mr. Tieger.  65 ter number

11     21002 and -3, those are maps of Kljuc.

12             MR. TIEGER:  I know exactly what you mean, Your Honour.  I

13     realised that those were, sort of, admitted on the basis of consensus,

14     but I also consider that, given the nature of those documents, that they

15     should not present any kind of a problem.  I think they were acknowledged

16     as part of the evidence, and I think that was --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MR. TIEGER:  -- Mr. Robinson's point as well in not objecting.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think it was not put to the witness.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I agree, but I think --

21             JUDGE KWON:  So except for those two, everything -- but is it not

22     in evidence already?

23             MR. TIEGER:  The maps?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             MR. TIEGER:  I don't show a reflection of that.

Page 19927

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see.  Let us upload 21002 and -3.

 2             I don't think that's necessary.

 3             And the next one, 21003.

 4             If you'd like to tender them, could you explore with the witness

 5     whether he agrees with it, the locations marked on this map, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Mr. Witness, you see the map of Kljuc municipality in front of

 8     you.  Taking -- I appreciate it's just a quick look, but if you can see

 9     the locations marked, and they'll be blown-up now, if you can indicate to

10     us whether that appears to be generally an accurate representation of the

11     location of those particular designated villages and areas.

12        A.   Yes, this is Kljuc municipality with all its neighbourhoods.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I think we now have basis to admit those two maps,

15     both of them.  All the associated exhibits will be admitted into evidence

16     and given numbers in due course.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I would simply note so

18     there's no misunderstanding about it:  There was reference to

19     65 ter 21015, a statement of Mr. Filipovic, in the course of the

20     testimony.  We did not include that as an associated exhibit because of

21     the Court's position on statements.  But I didn't want there to be any

22     misunderstanding with the Defence or the Court.

23             JUDGE KWON:  That's noted.

24             MR. TIEGER:  And finally, Mr. President, the correct

25     65 ter number of the Krajisnik testimony is 65 ter 22085A.

Page 19928

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Yes, Mr. Egrlic, your testimony in the Krajisnik trial has been

 3     admitted in lieu of your examination-in-chief, and now you will be

 4     further asked by Mr. Karadzic in his cross-examination.

 5             Would you like to take a break before Mr. Karadzic's

 6     cross-examination?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please, if possible.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll take a break for 20 minutes.

 9                           --- Break taken at 10.04 a.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 10.28 a.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Are you ready?  For your

12     planning purpose, today, for the remainder of the day, we'll have two

13     one-hour sessions and two half-an-hour breaks.

14             And, Mr. Egrlic, probably you heard this, but please bear in mind

15     that since yours and Mr. Karadzic's questions have to be translated,

16     please put a pause between the question and answer.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Egrlic.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   Today you spoke about the certificates issued to people and you

23     said that they constituted a hand-over of immovable property to

24     Republika Srpska.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19929

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up the document that

 2     refers to Mr. Sistek.  Let us see what it says exactly.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Whilst we're waiting, Mr. Egrlic, do we agree that in our country

 5     there used to be a category of socially owned flats?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Does that mean that a person was given a flat, either from his

 8     company or some other institutions, for life-long occupation, and that

 9     even entitled their children to use it after their death?

10        A.   Usually these flats were used nearly for a lifetime of the

11     tenant.

12        Q.   However, until recently the ownership over such flats was of

13     those who had built them, that is to say, the work organisation or an

14     institution; is that correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Only recently a tenant was given an opportunity to buy the flat

17     and convert it into his private property; is that correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have, now, 11248, 65 ter.

20     But it's actually now a P exhibit, admitted today.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you find anywhere in this document a confirmation that this

23     gentleman is doing anything else other than returning the socially owned

24     flat to -- to the company in Kljuc?

25        A.   Well, basically he is returning it under extraordinary

Page 19930

 1     circumstances, because he was being expelled from Kljuc municipality.

 2     Otherwise he wouldn't be forced to return it.  I personally know

 3     Mr. Sistek; he was a lawyer who worked for the Sip Kljuc company and on

 4     that basis was allocated the flat for his personal use.  However, when he

 5     had to leave the municipality, this flat was taken away from him by

 6     force.

 7        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, please, let us both refrain from making any

 8     characterisations and qualifications, and focus on the essence.  For

 9     example, if you -- if you had a socially owned flat and under certain

10     circumstances you had to leave the company, you would have to return the

11     flat if it was a flat allocated to specific personnel?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Is this person giving any of his private property to anyone?

14        A.   Not this person.  But there were a number of cases in which

15     people had to leave their houses, their land, their estates, and sign

16     that they were allegedly leaving it behind voluntarily, but that was not

17     true.

18        Q.   Now, let us see what it was that your wife signed when she was

19     leaving Kljuc.  Is it true that she signed the declaration that she was

20     placing the property at the disposal of the municipality?  This is not

21     your wife's declaration, but we'll find it shortly, because it was

22     mentioned in examination-in-chief.

23             Do you remember that it says "at the disposal"?  Can that be

24     equated with ownership?

25        A.   Well, you can construe it in that.  If you have a right to

Page 19931

 1     dispose of, then you are entitled to dispose of it in every form and

 2     shape.

 3        Q.   But disposal means the use; is that right?

 4        A.   Well, if you leave something behind without being certain that

 5     you would ever come back, that means a permanent relinquishment.

 6        Q.   Let's leave aside the document or the decisions that are issued

 7     on the 19th of August that rescinded all these decisions, and you needn't

 8     have known about that decision at all.

 9             When you returned to Kljuc in 1995, did you register any changes

10     of ownership and any changes of private ownership in cadastre or books

11     that were converted into the property of Republika Srpska, a state that

12     you indicated as someone who was conducting expropriation of private

13     property?

14        A.   I'm not aware of any such transactions being registered in the

15     cadastre books.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Egrlic, could you help us, help me, in reading

17     the -- in understanding this statement.  Could you read the second

18     statement [sic] in the statement.  I read, in English translation:

19             "When moving out, the keys are to be returned to the landlord."

20             Do you see that sentence?

21             Why don't we zoom up the B/C/S part.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I see it.

23             JUDGE KWON:  What does it mean?  Who is the landlord?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, if we are talking about

25     socially owned flat, the landlords were socially owned companies, because

Page 19932

 1     they built those flats and allocated them to their employees for use.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  But the first sentence says that -- are we seeing

 3     the same document?

 4             Why don't you upload 65 ter 11248.  Is it coming?  11248.

 5                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The first sentence in that statement says that:

 7             "I hereby state that I own immovable property."

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  So if you read those two sentences, how should we

10     understand the second sentence, "When moving out, the keys are to be

11     returned to the landlord"?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I don't know.  This is about

13     a forceful eviction of a person from his flat, which, basically, if he

14     had an opportunity, he would have been able to buy it after so many years

15     of living there, and he would have been able to do the same if he

16     returned to Kljuc, given that there was no change of ownership.  So this

17     is a very complex form of ownership relations.  In one part it seems that

18     he owns the flat, whereas on the other hand the company that allocated

19     the flat to him is entitled to dispose of it at any given time.

20             However, we are not talking about his returning the flat to the

21     company.  It's not the company that is requesting that, but, rather, an

22     administration organ is doing that, the organ that basically has nothing

23     to do with that flat.  It would have been understandable if Sip Kljuc,

24     the company where this gentleman worked, requested that due to some other

25     circumstances.  However, under these circumstances, this constituted a

Page 19933

 1     forceful confiscation of the flat by the municipality of Kljuc.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Egrlic.

 3             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Well, Mr. Egrlic, this is not correct.  Please see that he's

 6     returning the keys to the landlord, but not the apartment itself.  He

 7     returns the keys to the landlord so that somebody else could be using the

 8     apartment; isn't that correct?

 9        A.   That's what it says.  However, in practice, what happened was

10     that property was forcefully confiscated and the administrative organ of

11     the Kljuc municipality then disposed of it, that was the Serbian

12     municipality, and they could allocate the apartments to whomever they

13     liked, which indeed happened.  There were cases that people did not even

14     move out but then by force somebody else would move into the apartment to

15     live there and the person did not even have the chance to take away the

16     property, perhaps just a bundle of things, and this is how they would

17     leave the apartment and give over the key.

18             We are talking about war time conditions rather than conditions

19     in which someone voluntarily left Kljuc, moved away to some other place

20     to live there.

21        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, I feel uncomfortable to remind you that you gave an

22     oath that you would be telling the truth, but I have to remind you.  Do

23     you say that all these papers needed to be collected so that the

24     preconditions would be met for someone to be allowed to leave Kljuc?

25        A.   Yes.  All of that was necessary.  That was the condition for

Page 19934

 1     anyone to leave Kljuc.  Even in addition to this, one would have to pay

 2     electricity or telephone bills, taxes, or anything else that was

 3     outstanding as if the person was permanently leaving of his or her own

 4     will, but actually this would be a case of someone being forcefully

 5     evicted from the area.

 6        Q.   Well, I'm inviting you to say particularly what do you mean by

 7     "forcibly"?  If you are waiting for a convoy and looking for connections

 8     to be on a list, what is forcible there, what forces you, fear or

 9     something else?

10        A.   Well, fear and also the organs, because they say if someone says

11     that he wants to leave because he is afraid for his life, then the

12     municipal organs would tell him, Bring such and such a form.  And then he

13     would have to address this commission and allegedly relinquish his own

14     property voluntarily and then he would be put on a trailer truck as

15     cattle and driven towards Travnik up to Vlasic.  And then what would

16     happen there is that he would be waited there by Serbian soldiers who

17     would then rob him.

18        Q.   Was that what happened to you?

19        A.   That was what happened to my wife.

20        Q.   Well, your wife is not testifying.  You are testifying.  So let

21     us be specific.  Someone is afraid for his life and requests to be

22     allowed to leave Kljuc.  In Kljuc there are obstacles placed before him

23     by the municipality - provide the forms, pay for electricity, taxes, and

24     so on - and then once he settles all that, he can do that; is that

25     correct?

Page 19935

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   What forces him to leave Kljuc?

 3        A.   Everything forces him.

 4        Q.   Is it fear?

 5        A.   Yes, it includes fear, because there were murders and so on.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  When you returned in 1995, did you find a

 7     single property relationship which had been changed and registered in the

 8     cadastre books or in the court?  Were there any illegal changes of

 9     property?

10        A.   I can say that for my own property, because my wife forcibly

11     relinquished it, and there was no change of property in that case.

12        Q.   There was no change?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Today you talked about dismissals which were issued

15     five or six months after the event.  Are you aware that during war time

16     there is military obligation and also a working obligation?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Do you mean to say that, for example, a judge whose document we

19     saw here worked from the 27th of May until the 28th of October and then

20     was issued a dismissal?

21        A.   I know that the majority of Bosniaks were dismissed by the

22     1st of June and that practically during the month of June these documents

23     were collected, as we saw earlier, and they were forcibly evicted from

24     the territory of the municipality.

25        Q.   Please let us not go back to your qualifications, because that

Page 19936

 1     brings us to the beginning and we then have to distinguish between your

 2     qualifications so as to define what is "forcibly."  We already did that,

 3     so please do not use qualifications, but tell us about events and the

 4     truth.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please do not qualify witness's evidence,

 6     Mr. Karadzic.  Let's continue.

 7             But in the meantime, do you tender this document, Mr. Karadzic?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's already admitted.  It's a

 9     P document.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm afraid it's not.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3573, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   What I'm asking you now, Mr. Witness, is to establish what

15     happened rather than how we would call it, because if you do that, then

16     you bring me back to the beginning.

17             So from the 27th of May did the Judge work from that date until

18     the 28th of October, or did she stop working on the 27th of May?

19        A.   She stopped working on the 27th of May.

20        Q.   And the dismissal was issued to her only on the 28th of October;

21     correct?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   So was she dismissed or did she dismiss herself?

24        A.   She was dismissed.

25        Q.   But why didn't they hand over the dismissal to her immediately,

Page 19937

 1     but, rather, five months later?

 2        A.   Well, I don't know that.  I don't have an answer to that.  I can

 3     just comment on it.  That was the case with me as well.  I was in a camp,

 4     and in my document it said that I worked until a specific date.  And the

 5     reason, they said, was that I did not report for work and reportedly for

 6     that the same persons who imprisoned me in the camp terminated my

 7     employment because they said that I did not report for work.  I mean,

 8     really, what are we talking about here?

 9        Q.   And when did you stop reporting for work, on the 7th of May;

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes, I stopped on the 7th of May when the municipality was

12     occupied.

13        Q.   Witness, do you claim that on the 27th of May that was not the

14     key date in your municipality by five or six major incidents which

15     occurred and were directed against the Serbian policemen, Serbian

16     soldiers, and Serbian civilians?

17             MR. TIEGER:  Just how many questions are embedded in this

18     inquiry?  And I think they need to be broken down to have any prospect of

19     an intelligible response.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you observe the difficulties or the problems of

21     compound questions.

22             Why don't you put question one by one.

23             In the meantime, Court Deputy could approach the Chamber.

24                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19938

 1        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, was the 27th of May a critical day which is well

 2     known because of several incidents?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  So between the 7th and the 27th of May,

 5     when perhaps you couldn't report for work, you spent these 20 days

 6     somewhere.  Where were you?

 7        A.   Well, I was registered as being on annual leave because I had not

 8     used it earlier.

 9        Q.   But you did not request annual leave, they just registered you as

10     being on annual leave so that they wouldn't dismiss you; correct?

11        A.   No, I did not ask for annual leave.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And when they saw that you were not reporting for

13     work in these 20 days, were they entitled to dismiss you after five days?

14        A.   Yes, if these had been normal circumstances.  But I was banned

15     from entering the municipality.  We are talking about war time rather

16     than about peacetime conditions.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now we'll go back a bit to the beginning of the whole

18     situation.  You were a member of the SDA.  You were probably one of the

19     founding members of the SDA in Kljuc; correct?

20        A.   One of the founding members, yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You say in several occasions that up until the crisis

22     you had very good co-operation with the SDS, that you distributed power

23     and reached agreements about a majority of issues; correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You further say that you agree that there should not be

Page 19939

 1     out-voting when important issues that were of vital importance for the

 2     people were voted about; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  That was something that you were interested in at the

 5     municipal level where you constituted the minority; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   And did you and your party advocate the same principle at the

 8     level of the republic?

 9        A.   As far as I know, it was so.

10        Q.   And do you know when the crisis arose and when were relations

11     between the Serbs and the Muslims and the two leading parties disturbed?

12     You connect that with the date when the Autonomous Region of Krajina was

13     set up; correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Would you agree that the Autonomous Region of Krajina was

16     declared in early September or maybe even on the last few days in August?

17        A.   It's possible that that was the case.

18        Q.   And do you remember that this happened once the historic

19     agreement between the Serbs and the Muslims was cancelled and the MBO,

20     your coalition partner in Kljuc, had been involved in these negotiations

21     with Izetbegovic and that the entire month of August these discussions

22     were taking place?

23        A.   I'm aware that there was some initiative, but I do not know the

24     details.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And do you remember that for the sake of this

Page 19940

 1     agreement we gave up any idea of regionalisation and any autonomies in

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 3        A.   I do not remember that.

 4        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, would you agree with me that both the

 5     Autonomous Region of Krajina and Kljuc are located deep within

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Would you then agree with me that what was happening in the Kljuc

 9     municipality would have to be related to what was happening in

10     Bosnia-Herzegovina, as a whole, and in Yugoslavia, as a wider whole?

11        A.   I kindly ask you to ask me a specific question.

12        Q.   Well, this is the specific question:  You say - and you discuss

13     that in 65 ter 22085, on page 6111; that was your testimony in the

14     Stanisic and Zupljanin case - where you say that the Autonomous Region of

15     Krajina was a para-state and that a country has to control its own

16     territory and that this was a para-state; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And do you know that a conference on Bosnia-Herzegovina was held

19     and that up until the Dayton there was not a single day on which some

20     conference was being held?  We were at conferences on Bosnia all the

21     time.

22        A.   There were many conferences.

23        Q.   You say that you first heard about the establishment of

24     Republika Srpska in the second half of 1991; is that correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 19941

 1        Q.   However, do you remember that we mentioned our Assembly for the

 2     first time on the 15th of October at a session of the Joint Assembly when

 3     we were out-voted about the declaration of the sovereignty of Bosnia?

 4     And our deputies then left the Assembly, they walked out of the session.

 5        A.   What is the question there?

 6        Q.   Do you remember that up until the 15th of October

 7     Republika Srpska did not exist?  There was even no Assembly of the

 8     Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9        A.   I think that it didn't.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree that we founded the Assembly of the

11     Serbian People on the 24th of October, 1991?

12        A.   Well, I cannot talk about exact dates.  This is something I do

13     not know.  I know that it was done.

14        Q.   Would you agree with me that the Assembly of the Serbian People

15     only in December, on the 21st of December, announced that it would

16     establish Republika Srpska, or, rather, a Serbian Republic within

17     Bosnia-Herzegovina, unless the request for independence was withdrawn;

18     this took place on the 21st of December?

19        A.   I don't know about that.

20        Q.   Do you agree that Republika Srpska was proclaimed on the

21     9th of January, 1992?

22        A.   Possibly.  I don't know the date.

23        Q.   Do you agree that the constitution came into force only on the

24     27th of March, 1992, whereas the republic became functional in April?

25        A.   You're asking me about things that I cannot confirm with any

Page 19942

 1     certainty because I was not involved in - how should I call them? - these

 2     circles that were in the know.  I can confirm the events that took place

 3     in Kljuc.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Egrlic, with all due respect, we need to

 5     contextualise the events in Kljuc by referring to the general background

 6     of the events in Bosnia and Yugoslavia; do you agree?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  When was the Bosnian municipality of Kljuc

 9     proclaimed?

10        A.   It was merely an idea and remained an idea.

11        Q.   Was it not proclaimed in late 1991?

12        A.   No.  It had never been proclaimed, although there was the idea to

13     do so because there were no other options for the future life in the

14     area.  People suggested that if no other way was possible, a municipality

15     should be proclaimed of a Muslim majority and that this would be the way

16     on.  However, this never came about simply because there were no

17     conditions in place for the citizens to voice their minds on this issue

18     through a referendum.  That's why it remained an idea.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do there exist now a Bosnian and Serbian municipality

20     of Kljuc in that the Serbian one is called Ribnik?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Well, Mr. Egrlic, would it not have been better to have done that

23     without going through the war, and the Serbs would have had their part of

24     town and their villages and the Muslim's theirs?

25        A.   Well, this was precisely our proposal.  But the Serbs refused to

Page 19943

 1     to so.  They wanted to chase us all out, which is what they did.

 2        Q.   That is not correct, Mr. Egrlic.  You wanted to annex Kljuc to

 3     the Cazin Krajina, to Bihac; is that not right?

 4        A.   No, that's not right.  We always considered Kljuc as part of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we do so today, just as we do view Banja Luka; it

 6     is part of that area.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Is it not correct that for the most part Kljuc was

 8     part of the association of municipalities of Banja Luka?

 9        A.   Yes, that was the case during the SFRY, because Banja Luka was

10     the regional, economic, and administrative capital for the municipalities

11     in the region that were part of the chamber of commerce.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And when the association of municipalities proclaimed

13     itself an autonomous region, you did not wish it to continue having that

14     same status; is that right?

15        A.   That is right; we didn't want to.

16        Q.   In other words, you wanted to change the status of Kljuc within

17     Krajina; right?

18        A.   Well, not.  You wanted to turn it into a state, one where no

19     other peoples would be entitled to remain in the area.  It's for that

20     reason that the Bosniaks refused it.  It was an attempt to create a

21     para-state within Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22        Q.   Very well.  Mr. Witness, about others being disenfranchised of

23     their rights there is something we'll get back to later.  But do you know

24     that at the conference in Bosnia-Herzegovina we were given the right to

25     have our own republic?

Page 19944

 1        A.   I don't know about that.

 2        Q.   As for these statements of yours, don't you think you ought to

 3     know what sort of rights we were given in Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 4        A.   I don't know what exactly we are talking about.  Can you be more

 5     to the point?

 6        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, you were, after all, a functionary of your own party.

 7     You write about spending time frequently in Sarajevo.  You were in the

 8     loop, informed by your party.  Didn't you know that the Serbs were

 9     against the secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina and had constitutional

10     mechanisms at their disposal to avert any such attempts?

11        A.   Secession from what?  I don't understand.

12        Q.   From Yugoslavia.  Who did Bosnia-Herzegovina secede from?  Wasn't

13     Bosnia within Yugoslavia?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Didn't Bosnia want -- or, rather, part of Bosnia, the Muslim and

16     Croat coalition, want to secede from Yugoslavia?

17        A.   Well, a referendum was held on that issue for the citizenry,

18     which voted in favour of independence.

19        Q.   Wait a moment.  Are you familiar with constitutional law?  You

20     did study law, did you not?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   In that case, this is my question:  Didn't Muslim and Croat

23     communes want to leave - well perhaps not all the Muslims - to leave

24     Yugoslavia?

25        A.   Well, Yugoslavia disintegrated with the departures -- the

Page 19945

 1     departure of Slovenia and Croatia.  There was no Yugoslavia anymore by

 2     that point.

 3        Q.   It's not up to us to judge that.  Wasn't Bosnia within Yugoslavia

 4     up until the 6th of April, 1992?

 5        A.   Yes, it was.

 6        Q.   Do you know that based on the principal of constituency and on

 7     two-thirds principle the Serb People was -- in Bosnia were always able to

 8     prevent the secession of Bosnia from Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   I am not a lawyer and am not able to judge that.

10        Q.   Do we with agree that within the Bosnian Assembly there were

11     240 deputies?

12        A.   Possibly.  I don't know.

13        Q.   Do we agree that the Republika Srpska Assembly was made up of

14     73 of out of 86 Serbs who were deputies in the BH Assembly?  To this day,

15     Republika Srpska Assembly has 83 deputies.

16        A.   Possibly.

17        Q.   Is 83 more than one-third compared to the total of 240?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that the requirement for a positive

20     outcome of the referendum was that there should be a turnout of

21     two-thirds plus one voter out of the entire electorate?

22        A.   Which referendum are we referring to?

23        Q.   The referendum which was held in late February and on the

24     1st of March, 1992.

25        A.   Well, I don't know what the requirement was and how many, in

Page 19946

 1     fact, turned out.  I know that a majority was required and that on this

 2     basis a vote was cast in favour of the country's independence.

 3        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, two-thirds did not turn out.  And of those who did,

 4     62 per cent voted.  And even in that case --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Again, I'm struggling to understand the relevance of

 6     these issues.  How you come to a war is not that relevant, Mr. Karadzic.

 7     Please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, with all due

 9     respect, this witness, as well as others, in ambitious 92 ter documents

10     provided by the OTP speak to a host of issues and give their accounts of

11     the events seen through the loop of their political views.  What I want

12     to get from this witness is to confirm that Kljuc was in

13     Bosnia-Herzegovina and that the events in Kljuc were related to the

14     events in Bosnia-Herzegovina in general.  That's the main point.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Secondary, Mr. Egrlic, do you know that that the constitution can

17     be amended only in a constitutional way, through a constitutional

18     procedure?

19        A.   I don't know how a constitution is amended.  I'm not a lawyer.

20        Q.   You said that you were opposed to any sort of out-voting.  You

21     said that this is something that you referred to, for instance, in 22085

22     at page 6108.  Does this also relate to the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

23     that nobody has the right to outvote them and amend the constitution of

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina in an unconstitutional -- in a counter-constitutional

25     way?  Just answer that question.  Weren't the Serbs entitled to the

Page 19947

 1     protection of their constitution?

 2        A.   Well, in my view, there should be no out-voting anywhere.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did not Kljuc ultimately take a decision to become

 4     part of the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Did the president of municipality Banjac and the municipality

 7     itself defer the implementation of this decision for the sake of

 8     preserving good relations?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did the Kljuc municipality have representatives in the Assembly

11     of the autonomous region?

12        A.   Yes, it did.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall who it was?

14        A.   I don't.

15        Q.   Do you know, do you remember, that it was the vice-president of

16     Kljuc municipality, Omer Filipovic?

17        A.   I don't.

18        Q.   I'll find the reference later.

19             You said that there emerged a crisis in your relations at a point

20     when we proclaimed the Autonomous Region of Krajina, and this you tied in

21     with the plebiscite as well.  When did the Serbs hold the plebiscite in

22     favour of staying within Yugoslavia?  Or let me help you:  Do you agree

23     that it was on the 10th and 11th of November?

24        A.   It is possible.

25        Q.   But do you agree that the Autonomous Region of Krajina was

Page 19948

 1     proclaimed perhaps on the last day of August or early September, in other

 2     words, two months before the plebiscite?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you also agree that the Autonomous Region of Krajina was a

 5     region within Bosnia-Herzegovina and did not raise any calls for its

 6     departure from Yugoslavia [as interpreted]?

 7        A.   I don't agree with that.

 8        Q.   We're talking about 1991.  Are you saying that the

 9     Autonomous Region of Krajina asked that it should not be in Bosnia or

10     that it should stay within Bosnia?

11        A.   I don't know if they voiced any requests.  I only know that they

12     broke off all contact with organs of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

13     and that they strove towards maintaining contact only with the organs in

14     Banja Luka.

15        Q.   Do you agree, Mr. Witness, that both a proclamation of your

16     Bosnian municipality of Kljuc and the Serbian autonomous districts were

17     empty declarations which did not become fully functional before the war

18     broke out, before the secession of Bosnia?

19        A.   Well, the bodies of the autonomous region did become functional

20     before then.  Certain decisions were taken which were honoured by

21     municipality bodies.

22        Q.   Let's look at what you said in 2208 -- I'm sorry, no, in the

23     Brdjanin case, at page 10545.  I'll be reading in English:

24             [In English] "You as a Muslim in a municipality that was taken

25     into this new separatist commune, how was that, did you think, going to

Page 19949

 1     affect your personally -- you personally as a Muslim, if at all?

 2             "A. Since a referendum of the Serbian people was held and that

 3     they came out in favour of staying within Yugoslavia, this new parastate

 4     did not guarantee that the Muslims would enjoy all of their rights as

 5     citizens and for that reason we did not want to accept to remain part of

 6     the autonomous region, and that is why we pointed out that ... we wished

 7     to form a separate municipality and that we were citizens of Bosnia and

 8     Herzegovina and that we wanted to be a part of ... state."

 9             [Interpretation] Therefore, do you agree that the

10     Autonomous Region of Krajina was proclaimed in late August or early

11     September and that the plebiscite of the Serb people was held on the

12     10th and 11th of November?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And that all the way to the 9th of January --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, a small correction.  At 42/21, the --

17     Mr. Karadzic, I think inadvertently, omitted the second-to-last word of

18     the passage he was quoting from.  He read "part of state."  It should say

19     "that state," according to the transcript he was reading from.

20             THE ACCUSED:  "Of that state."  [Interpretation] Yes, I agree,

21     "of that state."

22             Can I have your leave to call up a document that I haven't

23     announced simply because I didn't know that the examination will take the

24     course it did.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19950

 1        Q.   Is it correct that political life in Bosnia-Herzegovina was at a

 2     stand still on the 15th of October because the Muslim Croat coalition

 3     passed a constitutional decision to change the character of the state,

 4     but it did so in a counter-constitutional way; there was an impasse at

 5     that point, therefore?

 6        A.   Yes, I remember a crisis setting in.  But as for the other

 7     qualifications that you mentioned, I cannot confirm that.

 8        Q.   On the next page, 10546, you were asked when the crisis started

 9     and when those relations broke, and you say:

10             [In English] "They were disrupted in such a way that the

11     Municipal Assembly did not work the way it did before and it was

12     difficult to reach certain decisions."

13             [Interpretation] And your previous answer was:

14             [In English] "As far as the referendum is concerned, most of the

15     Serbs came out in favour of joining Yugoslavia or in favour of remaining

16     in the former Yugoslavia, and then from that day on our relationships in

17     the political life of the municipality of Kljuc were disrupted."

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With the Chamber's leave, I would

19     like to call 31968, 65 ter document.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Are you familiar with the name of Rasim Kadic, the president of

22     the liberal party?

23        A.   Yes, I am.

24        Q.   Well, let's see what kind of telephone conversation took place

25     between Rasim Kadic and me on the 16th of October, 1991, which is one day

Page 19951

 1     after the meeting.  Instead of me reading the document, I kindly ask you

 2     to read it to yourself.  And once you've finished reading the first page,

 3     please tell us.

 4        A.   I've finished reading.

 5        Q.   Can we look at the next page.  Perhaps you would refer me to read

 6     it to you.  Just look briefly at it.  I'm not going to read everything.

 7             Basically it says here that a crisis erupted in yesterday's

 8     session and he says here that he needed to talk to me, that we had to

 9     meet at the political party level.  I said that it was possible for us to

10     agree, although I said that we were going to take numerous -- actually,

11     put numerous actions on ice, pending the clarification of the situation.

12     And then he said: I didn't take part in the voting nor do I wish.  I

13     asked: No, you didn't?  He says: No, of course, you can read today's

14     paper.  And I would like us in the authority to reach an agreement.  I

15     thought you were all right with that.  And then I have a rather lengthy

16     statement here.

17             Now, can we look at the next page in Serbian, where he says that

18     their position was that opened up a space for unconstitutional conduct.

19             Was Mr. Rasim Kadic a Muslim?

20        A.   Yes, he was.

21        Q.   Now, look what he says here --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please indicate the

23     paragraph that he's reading.  Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Where are you reading from?  And please slow down.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think we need the next page in

Page 19952

 1     English as well.  The previous one, please.  The previous one in English,

 2     the bottom of the page.  And I'm reading paragraph 5 from top.

 3     [In English] In English, it is where we should see about these

 4     possible -- at the bottom of the page.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   [Interpretation] And it says that whatever comes out of that is

 7     completely legitimate.  Some solutions must be sought.  And I say:  We

 8     have solutions for all the situations.  And so on and so forth.  And then

 9     I go on to say, and that's this lengthy statement, and it starts:

10             [As read] "We also counted on the Assembly meeting in secret, but

11     we, we secretly wanted that, to tell you the truth.  I personally didn't.

12     But my men who are clever and have less heart than I do, less soul than I

13     do, and in politics one should neither have a heart nor a soul, they

14     wished for it to happen."

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go on, please.  Next page,

16     where he says that he was fully aware that this was opening space for

17     unconstitutional conduct.

18             We have to find this.  Oh, here it is, number four from the top,

19     it says --

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Apologies from the interpreters.  We cannot

21     follow.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Do you see that he says that this opens up space for

24     unconstitutional conduct?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Make sure the passage is in front of us.

Page 19953

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The page in the Serbian is correct.

 2     And it's his fourth statement addressed to me.  Fourth from the top.  I

 3     can't see it in English though.  We have to look for it.  In English it's

 4     towards the bottom of the page.  It says:

 5             [As read] "All right.  We have -- I have a statement yesterday

 6     that -- that it's an introduction into the non-institutional solution of

 7     this crisis which, in a certain way, indirectly practically this ..."

 8     and so on and so forth.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  What is your question, Mr. Karadzic?

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is it true, Mr. Witness, that the proclamation of the autonomous

12     region of Krajina was not the event that precipitated the crisis but the

13     things that happened on the 15th of October?

14        A.   I know that the certain problems arose in Kljuc due to the

15     proclamation of the Krajina, and I think that that was the underlying

16     reason for the worsening of relationships.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this intercept admitted

19     into evidence under the conditions that we defined earlier.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1747, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll have a break for half an hour.  We'll

23     resume at 12.00.

24                           --- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.59 a.m.

Page 19954

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, you talked about mobilisation summons, and you said

 5     that young Muslims refused to respond to the mobilisation; is that

 6     correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.  However, not young Muslims, but, rather, those

 8     who were members of the Territorial Defence.

 9        Q.   I'm reading this from --

10             [In English] "Young Muslims refused to go to wage a war in

11     Croatia."

12             [Interpretation] I'm not referring to the organisation of young

13     Muslims.  I was referring to young men.

14        A.   Well, how you put it, it sounded as if there was an organisation

15     of young Muslims.

16        Q.   Well, that's how you put it.

17        A.   Well, as it's been translated now, it should read --

18        Q.   [No interpretation]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please wait for the

20     interpretation to be finished.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can we say that this mobilisation process was initiated in early

23     1991?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And that the war in Croatia started in the summer and was in

Page 19955

 1     progress long before the proclamation of the Krajina and

 2     Republika Srpska; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think the transcript reflect all of what you

 5     said.  When you switch to English, please put a pause before you starting

 6     reading in English.  Take a look at line 22 on the previous page and

 7     check if something is missing there.

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, Excellency.  Excuse me.  I said:  And I am

 9     reading the answer of Mr. Egrlic in Krajisnik case.  There were

10     mobilisation calls, however young Muslims refused to go to a war in

11     Croatia.  Not younger.  Young.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please continue.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So you refused -- or, rather, Muslim conscripts refused to

15     respond to the call-up long before the proclamation of the ARK and the

16     Republika Srpska; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes.  And that was due to their being sent to the front in

18     Croatia.

19        Q.   Yes, but Bosnia was still in Yugoslavia?

20        A.   Yes, it was part of the Rump Yugoslavia, whereas Croatia had

21     already seceded.

22        Q.   It was proclaimed but it wasn't recognised yet in 1991; is that

23     correct?

24        A.   I don't know about that.  All I know is that it was declared

25     independent.

Page 19956

 1        Q.   All right.  Then you and the MBO addressed the Muslims of your

 2     municipality; is that correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at this document,

 5     please.  It's 65 ter 21004.  21004.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Is this your proclamation, dated the 21st of September addressed

 8     to the Muslims of Kljuc?

 9        A.   Yes, it is.

10        Q.   Why didn't you address all the residents of Kljuc?

11        A.   Because the Serbs responded to mobilisation and agreed to go to

12     fight in Croatia, and the mobilisation was for the most part organised

13     for recruiting people to be sent to Croatia fronts.

14        Q.   And by this announcement you put a distance between young Muslims

15     and the JNA.

16        A.   No, it wasn't us who did this.  It was done by those who were

17     sending people to the front lines in Croatia.

18        Q.   Well, Mr. Egrlic, don't you think that defence policy of a

19     country should be defined at a different level, not at the municipal

20     level?

21        A.   It could be regulated at the municipal level as well.

22        Q.   Yes, in the event of the municipality being defended.  But when

23     you have a country at war, it is decided elsewhere.

24        A.   Bosnia-Herzegovina was not at war at the time.

25        Q.   Could Bosnia-Herzegovina have been at war, nevertheless, because

Page 19957

 1     it was part of Yugoslavia?

 2        A.   No, because Yugoslavia had already broken apart.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You go on to say that the war was imposed on Croatia.

 4     What did you mean by that?

 5        A.   Well, the facts speak for themselves, that is to say that

 6     soldiers from Bosnia-Herzegovina, Serbia were being sent to Croatia where

 7     they were fighting to capture territories in Croatia.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And you also say that in spite of that the Muslims

 9     agreed to join the Territorial Defence and the police force; is that

10     right?  The municipal army is not questionable, but Yugoslavia army is

11     questionable?

12        A.   Troops were set up at the level of municipality and were being

13     sent to Croatia.  Initially, people responded, as was customary, because

14     we had joint Territorial Defence organisations -- organisation until they

15     started dispatching people to Croatia and the Territorial Defence to wage

16     war there with the aim of capturing certain areas.  Then the president of

17     the Presidency, I'm talking about Mr. Izetbegovic's address to the

18     public, and said that the Bosniaks should not go to Croatia, and that was

19     what prompted us to react in the same way and to draft this announcement

20     calling upon people not to respond to the mobilisation and not to go over

21     there.

22        Q.   Thank you.  So it was not you in Kljuc who did this, but it was

23     Mr. Izetbegovic, actually, who made a distinction with regard to the JNA

24     by saying that the Muslims shouldn't go?

25        A.   Yes.  But he was speaking specifically about Croatia and he said

Page 19958

 1     that they should go there.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  But in the second paragraph it says here that at the

 3     time we are -- call up all conscripts within the reserve police and

 4     Territorial Defence to respond to mobilisation --

 5        A.   [No interpretation]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his answer.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Egrlic, interpreters couldn't hear your answer.

 8     Could you repeat it.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Concerning this paragraph which

10     speaks about the Bosniaks who should respond at the level of

11     municipality.  This is what this paragraph is talking about.  In other

12     words, that means that they should become members of the reserve police

13     force and Territorial Defence.  Before that, in the first paragraph, they

14     were called not to respond, the reason being the sending of Bosniaks to

15     Croatia, which was something that we didn't support.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I ask an additional question?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Let's ascertain the situation.  The Serbs respond to the calls

20     and Mr. Izetbegovic never even invited them not to respond.  They are

21     responding, for example, in the Kljuc municipality, and so they leave to

22     the front in Kljuc municipality.  And the Muslims respond to the

23     mobilisation calls from the Kljuc Territorial Defence and police and

24     remain in Kljuc; correct?

25        A.   Well, from September on, any sort of response was absent.  They

Page 19959

 1     did not respond to such calls in Kljuc or anywhere else.

 2        Q.   Yes, but the able-bodied Serbs would leave Kljuc whether the

 3     Muslims ones remained in Kljuc; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.  They stayed there because they did not respond and they

 5     were not engaged in the first place.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  It's an exhibit, Mr. President.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  It's Exhibit P3576, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   On page 4641, beginning in line 15, you talk about the reasons

14     why the army became Serbian; correct?  You say, and I shall read in

15     English:

16             [In English] [As read] "Even that the Muslims failed to respond

17     to the call-up, the composition of the JNA became -- the JNA became

18     composed of just one ethnic group because the Serbs would respond to the

19     call-up so that the JNA, on the whole, became a Serbian army."

20             [Interpretation] And then on page 4646 you say the following,

21     beginning in line 6, response:

22             [In English] [As read] "We were against gain such mobilisation

23     because it wasn't in accordance with the law and the constitution of

24     Bosnia and Herzegovina because a ministry at the level of the state had

25     been bypassed, and mobilisation was being conducted by the local

Page 19960

 1     authorities in the municipality of Kljuc."

 2             [Interpretation] So you distinguish between the levels now.  We

 3     have a level that you do not mention, that's the federal state; right?

 4        A.   Yes, but it was not operational.  The Presidency which was the

 5     commander of the former JNA had stopped functioning, so that the chain of

 6     command was non-existent in practice.  It had not been established.

 7        Q.   But, Mr. Egrlic, the government was operating, the federal

 8     ministry, the General Staff as well, and isn't it the responsibility of

 9     the federal state to conduct mobilisation?

10        A.   In this case, it wasn't.  These were the local authorities that

11     conducted the mobilisation.

12        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, the local authorities implemented it.  Isn't it

13     correct that mobilisation of army in case of war or an imminent threat of

14     war is something that the federal country is responsible for?

15        A.   Yes, under normal circumstances.  But we had the break-up of

16     Yugoslavia here, and the Presidency didn't have that role anymore.

17        Q.   And who concluded that?

18        A.   Well, the facts speak for themselves.  Slovenia was out, so was

19     Croatia.  So the former Yugoslavia had ceased to exist.

20        Q.   All right.  In your opinion, is failing to respond to

21     mobilisation a crime that was -- for which somebody would be punished by

22     the laws that were then in force?

23        A.   Not in this case, because in my view not even Serbs ought to have

24     responded to these calls because they had no reason to go to the

25     territory of another country.

Page 19961

 1        Q.   But, Mr. Egrlic, you are now discussing constitutional issues,

 2     and you said you were not an expert for the constitution.  The federal

 3     country still existed and so did it's army.  It was legitimate.  But now

 4     you declare that you know that this was not constitutional; right?

 5        A.   Well, I suppose I have that much knowledge.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, this is not a place for a

 7     constitutional or historical debate.

 8             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Not to mention the fact that Mr. Karadzic asked the

10     witness a question, and the witness answered and then he was criticised

11     for providing the answer as going outside his expertise.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   When the war spilled over into Bosnia, did you also refuse to

14     receive mobilisation call-ups?  Is that correct?

15        A.   It is correct.  From September onwards there was no mobilisation

16     as far as Kljuc is concerned.

17        Q.   And is it correct that you said that the work of the

18     Municipal Assembly was blocked because the SDA deputies refused to

19     participate?

20        A.   That is not correct.

21        Q.   All right.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please let us have a look at 22082.

23     That's the statement, 65 ter, from 1996.  Please let's have a look.  I'll

24     tell you where this is.  Can we please see page 2.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19962

 1        Q.   This is a record of your statement from 1996; correct?  The last

 2     paragraph and the last sentence:  "The work of the Municipal Assembly was

 3     blocked because the deputies for the SDA refused to participate," and

 4     that's followed by your signature; correct?

 5        A.   That's not correct.  This is not how I said that.

 6        Q.   But this is your statement and your signature; correct?

 7        A.   It is my signature.  But obviously there was some sort of error

 8     made or a mistake when this was recorded.  Maybe I didn't read it when I

 9     signed it.  I probably believed that what I had stated was recorded.

10        Q.   But is it correct that the SDA deputies had walked out of the

11     Assembly?

12        A.   Yes, when there was voting about Kljuc belonging to the

13     Autonomous Region of Krajina.  They did not want to vote on that issue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the previous page

15     in English so that we can see that particular sentence.  [In English]

16     Then it must be in the previous page.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Could you perhaps have in mind the fact that they walked out of

19     the Assembly when you said this?

20        A.   Possibly.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English we need page 3,

22     paragraph 4, so this is another page back.  Paragraph 4.  Right.

23        Q.   MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24             [In English] "The work of the SO was blocked because of the

25     refusal of the SDA deputies to participate in it."

Page 19963

 1             You did say that in this fashion, didn't you?

 2        A.   Well, I said what I did.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the SDA had its branches in

 4     Croatia, Slovenia, and Serbia?

 5        A.   Yes.  It had them throughout the territory of the former

 6     Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And as for the proclamation to sabotage the JNA, was

 8     it also sent to these organisations?

 9        A.   I wouldn't know that.

10        Q.   And you said that the war in Croatia was a war that wasn't yours

11     and that you did not care about; correct?

12        A.   I did not talk about that, whose war it is.  The war didn't bring

13     any good to anyone.  It wasn't mine or yours or -- and it shouldn't have

14     been theirs either.  We only acted in the way we did.  And I think there

15     is nothing to be added or subtracted from that.

16        Q.   All right.  But during the conflicts in Croatia, you did travel

17     to Croatia; right?

18        A.   No, not during the conflict.

19        Q.   During the war in Croatia, you did not travel there?

20        A.   As far as I know, I didn't.

21        Q.   And before the outbreak of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina did you

22     have any contacts with Croatia regarding the supply of arms and weapons?

23        A.   No, I did not.

24        Q.   Did you know that Muslim Territorial Defence was established in

25     Kljuc, and were you involved in its establishment?

Page 19964

 1        A.   Such Territorial Defence was not established in Kljuc.  What was

 2     established was the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the

 3     Kljuc municipality.

 4        Q.   Uh-huh.  The Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the

 5     Kljuc municipality.  And it comprised -- who was the commander, who was

 6     the chief of this Territorial Defence?

 7        A.   It was the late Omer Filipovic.

 8        Q.   And that was the Muslim's Territorial Defence; correct?

 9        A.   That is not written anywhere that that was the Muslim's

10     Territorial Defence, nor did I state anything like that anywhere.

11        Q.   But it was set up later, after the Serbian municipality of Kljuc

12     was proclaimed.  And after the AR of Krajina was set up, then you set up

13     a separate Territorial Defence; correct?

14        A.   No.  You were the ones who seceded by a part of the territory and

15     formed Serbian Territorial Defence, and this Territorial Defence actually

16     was something that followed from the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  We

17     were loyal to that state, and we were the continuation of that segment of

18     state organisation in the territory of the Kljuc municipality.

19        Q.   So that would be as if we proclaimed that we were loyal to

20     Yugoslavia and refused to acknowledge independent Bosnia; right?

21        A.   No, it's not like that.  The Serbs in Kljuc offered loyalty to

22     the Bosniaks, and the Bosniaks refused that, as you are well aware,

23     because they believed that loyalty not to be necessary.  We had remained

24     loyal to the state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and we were requested to sign

25     that we were loyal to Republika Srpska and the organs which were

Page 19965

 1     nonexistent in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina in the sense in which

 2     the country had been organised before the -- all the problems that arose.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know that according to the

 4     Lisbon Agreement Kljuc was to belong to Republika Srpska?

 5        A.   I don't know that.  But that doesn't mean anything, what belonged

 6     to whom, because the agreement was not adopted and it was not in force.

 7        Q.   So you want to say that the agreement had not been reached?

 8        A.   No, the Dayton Agreement is in force now.  There were many

 9     agreements, as far as I know, but none of them were adopted, and

10     eventually it was just the Dayton Agreement that was adopted and that's

11     it.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Egrlic, were you parallelly organised as Muslims;

13     you had your Crisis Staff, your units, and your institutions?

14        A.   We were expelled from the municipal structures on the 7th of May

15     so that, as I said earlier, we did not sign the declaration of loyalty,

16     and there was no place for us anymore in the municipal organs.  We then

17     had to organise ourselves in such a manner that we could possibly give

18     some answers, because the citizens were in great fear.  The municipality

19     was occupied, taken over.  There were roadblocks and barricades at all

20     important places.  The members of the 6th Krajina Brigade from

21     Sanski Most had done that.  And this was an attempt from our part to

22     organise ourselves in such a way so that we could communicate with the

23     population.  We opened an office in Pudin Han so that we could have such

24     contacts, and that's it.

25        Q.   What was that an office for?

Page 19966

 1        A.   It was an office of the local commune which we used to remain in

 2     touch with the population on all these various issues which were normally

 3     to be addressed by municipal bodies.  Therefore, it was an attempt at

 4     overcoming the difficulties we had by installing an office where citizens

 5     could get answers to their questions and have their problems resolved.

 6        Q.   So it wasn't a local commune as such, it was, rather, their

 7     offices that you used to be in touch with the population?

 8        A.   Yes, but it was short-lived.  It operated for a couple of days

 9     only.  We were unsuccessful.  Unfortunately, there ensued certain

10     incidents which disrupted the affairs at the level of the Kljuc

11     municipality.  And then beyond the 27th of May, there was no possibility

12     for anything to operate any longer.

13        Q.   And when was it that you installed this office?

14        A.   Around the 10th of May.  Definitely after the 7th of May when the

15     occupation took place.

16        Q.   Thank you.  So nobody touched you for 17 days, until the

17     27th of May; right?

18        A.   Well, should anyone have touched us?

19        Q.   Well, no.  And nobody did, in fact.  There were no clashes before

20     the 27th of May; right?

21        A.   Well, there were shooting incidents.  There was gun-fire, but no

22     clashes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  After the 27th of May, did you keep your Crisis Staff

24     in June?

25        A.   There was nothing in place beyond the 27th of May.

Page 19967

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we call up, briefly, D1350.

 2     Thank you.  Can we have the next page, please.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you see the entry for the 10th of June which says that the

 5     Crisis Staff existed?  Muhamed Filipovic, Omer Filipovic, and the person

 6     in charge of political affairs, Asim Egrlic.  And you did confirm that

 7     you were in charge of political affairs.

 8        A.   Well, I was in, but within the Territorial Defence staff there

 9     was Crisis Staff as such, because there was no opportunity to set it up.

10     On the 27th of May, a state of war emerged for all intents and purposes.

11     Harassment, arrests, people taken to camps.  So how could you possibly

12     under those circumstances do anything of that sort?  I was, myself,

13     detained on the 28th.  Evidently whoever wrote this believed things to be

14     that way, but that was not true.

15        Q.   Look at item 2, the Territorial Defence staff.  And the date is

16     the 10th of June.  Can you tell us who appointed Omer Filipovic as the

17     Territorial Defence commander?

18        A.   It was the commander of the Territorial Defence for

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina, Hasan Efendic.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And under 4 we can see you, Asim Egrlic, as a member

21     of the TO staff, political affairs; right?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             Which weapons did you have within the Territorial Defence?

25        A.   I don't know.  We never got the chance to organise mobilisation

Page 19968

 1     in order to see what sort of weapons were held by people.

 2        Q.   But tell us, some sort of weapons did reach the Muslims in Kljuc,

 3     did they not?

 4        A.   Well, people procured weapons for themselves independently when

 5     the security situation became impaired.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us look at 65 ter 17842.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   On the 21st of June, Esad Bender produced a statement where, as

 9     you can see, he makes reference to you, right beyond Omer Filipovic,

10     paragraph 2.  Filipovic, Omer; Asim Egrlic; Ibrahim Egrlic - that's your

11     brother, is it not?

12        A.   Yes.  He was killed somewhere.  Haven't found his body yet.  It

13     would be a good thing if anyone told us where both him and my other

14     brother Mumin can be found.

15        Q.   I'm sorry to here that, and it would be humane if those who know

16     and hear you should do that.

17             And then further down it says that as for the arming, according

18     to what Muhamed told him, Asim together with some others, and he believed

19     it was former police officer, went to Zagreb and brought 11- to

20     14.000 francs used to buy 11 submachine-guns, et cetera.

21             Is that how it was?

22        A.   That's not how it was.

23        Q.   This was a question put to you in the Brdjanin case as well, was

24     it not?

25        A.   This person Bender was killed in the meantime.  If he were alive,

Page 19969

 1     he would be able to tell us what the circumstances were when he gave this

 2     statement.  He was at Manjaca when he was killed, together with

 3     Omer Filipovic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D4440, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   As I'm putting these issues to you, Witness, I'm not accusing you

 7     of anything or trying to establish what the responsibility was.  I merely

 8     want to shed light on the circumstances surrounding your arrest, why was

 9     it that you were detained.

10             Here we can see a statement where it is said specifically about

11     the procurement of weapons, where Asim Egrlic and his brother Ibrahim,

12     and so on and so forth, took part in that.  And further down it says that

13     they were in Switzerland and that it is believed that Alija Bilic

14     accompanied them on this trip and on this occasion they brought over

15     18.000 Swiss francs that they used so buy 9 or 10 pieces of weapons, and

16     the rest they shared between themselves.

17             So what do you have to say to this individual placing you in the

18     context of the procurement of weapons?

19        A.   This has nothing to do with the truth.  I've never had any such

20     dealings.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D4439.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  And can the speakers please pause.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 14439.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Have a look.  The 2nd Krajina Corps, the 11th of July, reports on

Page 19970

 1     the arrest in the village of Vracic, Said Halilovic, Fadil Halilovic,

 2     Rezak Halilovic, Ifet Bukvic, et cetera.  In paragraph 2, it reads:

 3             "In the village of Gornji Vojici, Kljuc municipality, the Muslims

 4     procured weapons in various ways.  Those who procured most weapons for

 5     the village were Arif Hukanovic and his brother Ifet Hukanovic."

 6             Further down, it goes on to say:

 7             "Furthermore, Nedzad [phoen] Djeric from Bosanski Petrovac, a

 8     haulier, also brought weapons to the village to sell it there.  He

 9     brought the weapons over in a black or yellow Mercedes, and he sold the

10     weapons at the price of 1.000 to 2.000 German marks a piece.  In early

11     1992, there began efforts to organise themselves militarily.  Organisers

12     behind this activity were Omer Filipovic and Asim Egrlic."

13             What do you say to this statement placing you as one of those

14     involved in the process of military organisation?

15        A.   Well, I was a member of the BH TO staff for Kljuc municipality.

16     I can tell you that I'm not familiar with any of the statements you've

17     just read out about people brings in weapons, et cetera.

18        Q.   In the next paragraph, it says that fundraising campaign for the

19     procurement of weapons was launched by Ceman Fahrudin and, among others,

20     there is also mention of Ibrahim Egrlic, your brother, are you -- from

21     the village of Egrlic.  Do you also hail from there?

22        A.   Yes.  Well, it is possible that people, when they were detained

23     at Manjaca, gave these statements under duress.  Probably they were

24     presented with template statements with the aim of indicating that there

25     existed a very strong Territorial Defence force, which wasn't true at

Page 19971

 1     all.  The truth is that in the municipality, a Serb TO was organised

 2     which got hold of the weapons and transported the weapons to the local

 3     commune of Ribnik, where there is 100 per cent Serb population.  From

 4     that location, they distributed weapons among the Serbs and got armed.

 5     The BH TO was set up in such a way that a commander was appointed and

 6     there was a staff in place, but it did not set up any units of its own.

 7             What existed at the time were village guards, but these were

 8     volunteers standing guard to make sure that nobody slipped into their

 9     villages unnoticed, because at the time there were instances of robberies

10     and gun-fire, et cetera.  But there was no sort of organisation that

11     would make it a military unit.  It cannot possibly be stated in those

12     terms because it's not true.  I don't know of a single army in the world

13     that could be set up on the basis of a TO commander being appointed in

14     April and putting together an army by -- two months later.

15        Q.   Very well.  Here you have a list of names of individuals who were

16     part of the company in his village of Hasici.  It says that there were

17     78 armed men.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Can you see that there's 68 people here, most of them armed, some

21     had received explosive devices, et cetera.  Can you confirm that?

22        A.   Well, you can have this on this paper whatever you want, but I

23     will not confirm it.  It was decided already before this date that

24     certain people should be arrested and shot.  In addition to these,

25     able-bodied men, women, and children and elderly were shot as well.  That

Page 19972

 1     is the real truth.

 2             As for these organising efforts, well, there may have been some,

 3     I wouldn't deny them, had there been time enough to do that, had -- but I

 4     can tell you that in fact there was not time enough to do that and the

 5     intelligence service was very busy at the time.  There were potentials

 6     for organisation.  There were able-bodied men who could have and should

 7     have responded to a call-up had one been organised, but it had not.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  But you do not deny that these Halilovics, Said,

 9     Fadil, Rezak, and others were in fact arrested; right?

10        A.   I don't know that.  I the only thing I know is that Halilovic and

11     Delic, the individuals mentioned here, were killed.

12        Q.   Did you see that?

13        A.   I saw that they were in Babina Dolina.

14        Q.   You saw them being exhumed.  Did you see them get killed?

15        A.   Well, I'm sure they didn't kill themselves.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that an ambush was organised on a military

17     column in Pudin Han and Velagici at the end of May?

18        A.   Well, let me tell you that this is your viewpoint.  But this

19     ambush or attack, as you call it, was nothing of the thing.  As I said,

20     Velagici and Pudin Han were Muslims'.  I said that there were village

21     guards in place.  And as the security situation deteriorated, they

22     started standing guard in day-time as well.  I heard - I wasn't

23     eye-witness of it - as the military column passed that they opened fire

24     on the houses nearby and on the mosque in Pudin Han, whereupon they

25     returned fire and then things happened as you say.

Page 19973

 1        Q.   Is it true that there were people killed in the convoy, some were

 2     killed in automobiles, others in buses?

 3        A.   Well, I did hear something about it, but I don't know the

 4     details.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page, please.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So let's see what these individuals who were captured had to say

 9     about the incident.  And I will read this out for the sake of everyone:

10             "The platoon from Gornji Vojici had been engaged to stand guard

11     before the conflict took place above the village of Vojici and Hasici.

12     The attack on the military column in Pudin Han and Velagici had been

13     organised by Omer Filipovic, Asim Egrlic, Cemal Velagic," and so on and

14     so forth.

15             Further down, the second sentence reads:

16             "A group of some dozen individuals who were members of the

17     company had been engaged in the transportation of explosive and laying

18     them along the road between Laniste and Kljuc.  The whole exercise didn't

19     succeed because there wasn't enough explosives."

20             Did you hear of this?

21        A.   Yes, I did.

22        Q.   So you see that the military organs were able to receive quite a

23     few information about your involvement in the armed rebellion and attack

24     on the Serbian columns.  I'm not saying that the information was correct,

25     but do you not see that these were the grounds based on which you were

Page 19974

 1     accused or charged, on the basis of the statements given by Muslims?

 2        A.   I told you what the circumstances were.  These Muslims were

 3     arrested, some of whom unfortunately were killed, and these statements

 4     were taken at Manjaca camp where they were held.

 5        Q.   Well, they could have fabricated any other story, why this one?

 6        A.   Well, the easiest thing was to make reference to me because I was

 7     on the staff.  It was only natural that they wouldn't go inventing names.

 8     It would be natural for those who were on the staff to have taken some

 9     action.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, this Official Note, which is

11     actually not a statement given by anyone but an Official Note compiled by

12     the army, can this be admitted into evidence.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any basis, Mr. Karadzic.  You will have

14     another opportunity to tender this.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I think this is a good

16     example of something that should be admitted even when the witness denies

17     the allegations because it's -- it's something that's directly related to

18     him, his name is mentioned.  And its an inconsistency.  We can't only

19     admit things that the witnesses confirm, when he would be -- he's

20     confronted with a document that directly deals with his own conduct.  I

21     think this has come up before and we've agreed that there are instances

22     in which documents that the witness can't confirm but so closely relate

23     to his conduct can be admitted, and I think that this is one of those.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The crux of the content were put to the witness and

25     we have his answer in the transcript.

Page 19975

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, that's true of many, many exhibits.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  And you will have another opportunity to admit this.

 3     Then --

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  How would that be?  That would recall us -- that

 5     would require us to call witnesses in our Defence case.  I don't think

 6     that we would have to have that burden to do that if a document is

 7     otherwise admissible.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             Now Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  I think the issue here is not the one that

11     Mr. Robinson is trying to focus on at the moment.  Let me mention at the

12     outset I'm a bit handicapped because this wasn't translated.  But

13     although the document is headed as a document of the 2nd Krajina Corps,

14     it seems to turn out to be the case that it is a compilation of

15     statements taken by people.  So it seems that what Mr. Robinson is

16     ignoring is this appears to fall within the ambit of the Court's previous

17     guide-lines on statements taken.

18             I would also indicate that I think those guide-lines have greater

19     force when they are statements taken under conditions that not only

20     suggest duress but where there is direct evidence of that provided by the

21     witness.

22             Having said all that, I don't believe that this -- under these

23     circumstances, this document would be accorded great weight by the Court

24     if it was admitted because of the circumstances that have been clearly

25     outlined.  But I think it was fair to note that these are the factors

Page 19976

 1     that bear on the consideration and assessment of admissibility in this

 2     case, not simply the one that Mr. Robinson outlined.  We do agree with

 3     the general proposition that the dispositive factor may not be whether a

 4     witness agrees or disagrees with the document, depending on the nature of

 5     the document, but this document seems to involve a different issue.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So you do not agree with the admission of this

 7     document?  You object to the admission of this document?

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I believe that based on -- and I'm trying to be --

 9     to adhere to the Court's guide-lines so we have a relatively consistent

10     practice that the parties can count on in assessing admissibility.  This

11     one appears to me to fall under the ambit that the Court identified

12     earlier regarding the admission of statements.  This seems to be -- this

13     seems to be a compilation of statements taken and then a different header

14     put on them.  But maybe -- as I say, I haven't got a translation, so I'm

15     dependent upon what was read out and described and discussed during the

16     course of the question and answer.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, very briefly.  This, I think,

18     is -- these are contemporaneous statements made during these events that

19     I think differ -- make a differ from other third party statements that

20     we've objected to and that you've excluded.  So these are the kind of

21     third party statements I believe that have been admitted by the Chamber

22     when they're contemporaneous.

23             Secondly, it's true that the circumstances under which these

24     statements are made call into question the veracity of them, but that's

25     strictly a matter for weight and wouldn't affect the admissibility.

Page 19977

 1             And I just, speaking of third party statements, recall the

 2     admission of the video of Mr. Stanic when he was being interviewed after

 3     the events, and you admitted it on the basis that the witness confirmed

 4     it, or confirmed the statements.  So that was a statement of a third

 5     party made even after the events, and then you decided it should be

 6     admitted because of the issue of confirmation, which, I would submit,

 7     confirmation and contradiction is basically the same thing.  So I think

 8     you've crossed the line where you've been admitting third party

 9     statements that are relevant and especially when they are

10     contemporaneous, and I would ask you to apply that here and admit this

11     document.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, but I -- and I know the Court neither wants

13     to defer the ruling and move on or make a ruling and move on, but I just

14     cannot let pass the suggestion that the statements extracted from people

15     in custody, especially in the circumstances that the evidence has

16     established in ample detail existed at the time, can be compared to

17     comments made by SDS officials to SDS organs or to independent bodies

18     about the objectives, about their on-going efforts, in an effort to reach

19     and exhort their people into further activity and obedience to the

20     on-going process.  These are quite different circumstances.  I'm not

21     going to get into the full details of that.  But the attempt to conflate

22     the two and suggest that a ruling should be identical, I think, overlooks

23     very, very significant distinctions.

24             JUDGE KWON:  On just practical questions, Mr. Robinson, you

25     stated that Defence has no burden to introduce -- to call a witness to

Page 19978

 1     give some context to this document.  How can I assess this document at

 2     all?  You are tendering this document not for the purpose of it, not for

 3     the truth of the document, but just only to rebut the witness's evidence.

 4     Is that your position?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, not necessarily.  But I think as the

 6     evidence will stand now, without any further evidence, there had been

 7     allegations made that this witness was involved in activity.  You know

 8     the circumstances under which these allegations are made.  The witness

 9     denies it.  And that's the state of the evidence that would be -- you

10     would have were this document to be admitted.  No more than that.

11             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Robinson, if the allegation is that these

12     statements were made under duress, would that then be a question of

13     weight alone?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  I think so, unless there was a greater showing

15     of -- this -- that would -- that would actually implicate Rule 95, which

16     would be a basis for excluding statements that are so unreliable that

17     they shouldn't even be admitted at all, and I think that that's a process

18     that requires much more evidence before a statement should be excluded on

19     that basis.  Sometimes even a hearing or at least a showing that it's

20     come so far that it shouldn't even be considered at all.  So we think in

21     these circumstances, absent that kind of showing, that it does go to

22     weight.  Thank you.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's a proper time to take a break now,

24     we'll break for half an hour and resume at 1.30.

25                           --- Recess taken at 12.58 p.m.

Page 19979

 1                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, excuse me.  Dr. Karadzic asked

 4     me just to bring to your attention, in connection with the discussion we

 5     had about the previous document, that the information was probative not

 6     only of what conduct the witness had engaged in, if any, but what reason

 7     the authorities had for arresting him, whether it was simply because he

 8     was a Muslim or whether because they had information, reliable or

 9     otherwise, that he had engaged in some combat related activities.  So he

10     wanted me to bring that to your attention before you issue a ruling.

11     Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll defer the determination.

13             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Of course that would suggest that the statements

15     were taken before the witness's arrest, and I don't -- that doesn't seem

16     to be the case on the basis of the dates I see.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  In any event, as I already said, we'll defer

18     the decision in order to make a more informed ruling.  And in the

19     meantime, not only because it was untranslated but also -- but also

20     because we -- while we are considering the matter, we'll mark it for

21     identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D1748, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 19980

 1        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, you mentioned two brothers, Ibrahim and Mumin.  Do

 2     you know where your brother Mumin was taken prisoner, and when?

 3        A.   The information I have was that he was taken prisoner in Kljuc

 4     and was transported to the Kamenica camp near Drvar.  And after that

 5     nothing is known about him.

 6        Q.   Was he taken prisoner in the territory of the municipality of

 7     Kljuc or in the town of Kljuc itself?

 8        A.   I don't have this information.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have 1D737.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   When were you released from Manjaca?

13        A.   I was transported from Manjaca to another camp, Batkovic.

14        Q.   And from Batkovic?

15        A.   From Batkovic, I was exchanged, I think, on the

16     29th of January, 1993.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 1D737 in

19     e-court.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  D1737.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D1737.  It's already admitted.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Can you please look at this document.  You went from Batkovic to

24     Karlovac; correct?

25        A.   To Zagreb.

Page 19981

 1        Q.   To Zagreb, all right.  So you can see here - I can even read to

 2     you:  Your brother, together with 14 other soldiers, was taken prisoner

 3     in the Galaja forest on the 6th of February, 1993.  And these are very

 4     well known names, such as Ferid Hukanovic, Elvedin Keranovic, Ibrahim

 5     Keranovic, Sakib Keranovic, Hajrudin Jelecevic, and Rasim Jelecevic.

 6     They are all well-known fighters from the Kljuc and Sana Brigade.

 7        A.   Well known for what?  I haven't heard you.  What are they known

 8     for?

 9        Q.   Well, are these names mentioned in the previous documents as the

10     persons who were supplying the weapons?

11        A.   I don't know why they would be well known.  And where are they

12     now?

13        Q.   We'll see what it says further on.  This is the national security

14     sector from Kljuc.  The last paragraph says:  What is especially

15     interesting for the RO Kljuc is Mumin Egrlic, who is the brother of Asim

16     Egrlic, who was the SDA president in Kljuc and the chairman of the Kljuc

17     Municipal Assembly Executive Committee.  After the war broke out --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the next page.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   When the war broke out, he was a member of the Bosanski Kljuc

21     Territorial Defence Staff.  He participated in an armed attack against

22     the JNA.  He was wounded, captured, and released from the Manjaca

23     prisoners of war camp.  His last known place of residence was Karlovac.

24     Is that correct?

25        A.   It's not correct.  I was in Zagreb because that's where my family

Page 19982

 1     was.

 2        Q.   All right.

 3        A.   And as for the others, several issues are included herein.

 4        Q.   But you know where this Galaja forest is, don't you?

 5        A.   I do.

 6        Q.   Is the Galaja forest a place that served as a military base for

 7     the Muslim forces in the territory of Kljuc?

 8        A.   I don't know that.

 9        Q.   All right.  Can you please see the frame which says:  In the same

10     territory, five days ago, our PP, which means our friendly and

11     acquaintance connection, found two tents of potato storage, potato and

12     apple storage, [indiscernible] and fresh traces of a fairly large number

13     of people.

14             So you can see that he was arrested on 6th of February, 1993,

15     after you had left for Croatia, and he was arrested as a member of a

16     group of 15 people; correct?

17        A.   Are there any traces about where he went later on?  What happened

18     to him?

19        Q.   This document does not deal with that.  I just want to say that

20     the document dates from the 16th of February and that it talks about the

21     incident in which they were taken prisoners in the Galaja forest.

22             So you know where Galaja is, but you do not know that was a base?

23        A.   I don't know.  It's in the direction of Sanski Most, this forest.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know who Amir Avdic is?

25        A.   I do.

Page 19983

 1        Q.   What did he do during the war?

 2        A.   He left with a group of people for Bihac, and he was in Bihac.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that he left for Bihac after he had

 4     fought against Serbs in Kljuc and Sanski Most, was surrounded but he took

 5     several Serbian soldiers prisoner, and then requested, in exchange for

 6     releasing them, to be allowed free passage to the Serbian territory so he

 7     could reach Bihac?

 8        A.   That's what I heard as well.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know how many fighters he had with him?

10        A.   I don't.

11        Q.   And do you know for how many days he fought?

12        A.   I don't know that either, because at the time I was already in

13     the camp.

14        Q.   Thank you.  And was he a member of your TO staff?

15        A.   Yes, he was.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please have a look at

17     1D04438.  We already know which minute it is.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Just before we play that, this is a celebration in Galaja after

20     the war.  A commemoration was held of some anniversary.  And is this

21     Amir Avdic in the checkered shirt, the one who is preparing to give a

22     speech?

23        A.   The image is quite vague, but it resembles him.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now play this one minute,

Page 19984

 1     please, so that we can hear it.  The interpreters have the translation of

 2     this segment.

 3                           [Video-clip played]

 4             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "In 1992 here in this area when the

 5     Chetniks already roamed freely in Sanski Most and Kljuc, they moved

 6     against this unit and we formed it on the 30th of May, 1992, which is the

 7     day when the combatants of Kljuc and Sanski Most joined together.  It is

 8     the day when we brothers in religious and neighbours found ourselves here

 9     to organise our Kljuc Sanski Most unit.

10             "I'm happy the great number of those combatants are here among

11     us, combatants that at the time organised themselves in a composition of

12     Kljuc Sanski Most unit here in order to continue the tradition of the

13     Kljuc Sanski Most unit.  We fought here on the 31st and on the 1st and on

14     2nd so that on the 3rd of June the enemy came here with their

15     6th Sanski Most and 7th Kljuc light units as well as the police.  They

16     came here to these forests of Galaja to surround their unit.  At the

17     moment, we were around 2 00."

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   This gentleman, Amir Avdic, was he a member of this Kljuc and

21     Sanski Most unit?

22        A.   As far as I know, he was.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this video-clip please be

25     admitted.

Page 19985

 1             JUDGE KWON:  You recognise his voice?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That will be admitted.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1749, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             Can we now please have a look at 1D04437.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   While this is coming up, Mr. Egrlic, you were arrested on the

 9     basis of a number of indicia.  Let us now go into that now because this

10     is important for this Defence, whether that was correct or not.  But

11     there was numerous circumstantial evidence that you had committed some

12     acts, some of which you believed probably to have been justified, and

13     that that was the basis for your arrest; correct?

14        A.   I came to the check-point myself.  No one specially arrested me.

15     I came to the check-point and then I was taken in by the police.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Did you injure, that is to say, wound yourself before

17     that?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Were you admitted to the Kljuc hospital?

20        A.   Yes, I was.

21        Q.   Did your colleagues from the municipality, Serbs, such as Banjac,

22     and others, visit you?

23        A.   Banjac did not.  But Veljko Kondic and Tihomir Dakic came to see

24     me.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Well, now you see later on you were exchanged late in

Page 19986

 1     the year, or, rather, in early 1993, and you left for Croatia.  However,

 2     in 1995 a criminal report was filed by the Kljuc Public Security Station.

 3     That means that if you were released, the proceedings had not been

 4     terminated; correct?

 5        A.   I don't know that.

 6        Q.   Did you ever receive this criminal report?

 7        A.   No, I didn't.

 8        Q.   Can you please have a look at this.  Omer Filipovic is under

 9     number 1, and Asim Egrlic under number 2.  Under number 4 we see

10     Ibrahim Egrlic.  And can we then move on, glance at other pages, so that

11     we can see that the total number is 239.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So can we please show the last

13     person on the list.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   239 persons were indicted of everyone else who was arrested.  So

16     we can move on to page number 14.  Yes, there it is.  The last one on the

17     list is Elkaz Bosnic.  Did you know all these people?

18        A.   Specifically not this last man.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  The transcript, at a minimum, will be confusing.

21     But as I understood this exchange, the witness was given a brief

22     opportunity to look at a few names, there was an emphasis on the number

23     of people listed, and then the witness was asked if he knew all these

24     people, which either meant the people whose names he had an opportunity

25     to see or, more likely, the entire list.  If that's the case, he needs to

Page 19987

 1     have an opportunity to look at the list.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Did you mean to ask whether witness knows

 3     239 people?  These persons, all of them?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  I meant to ask

 5     him whether he knew some of them.  But I can read the names from the

 6     first page, did he know the men who are listed there.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Omer Filipovic, you knew him, didn't you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Iksan Zukanovic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   I won't ask you about your brother.  Emir Kapetanovic?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Emir Avdic -- Amir Avdic?  This is the person who we just heard

15     speaking.  Amir Avdic?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   He is under number 6.  How about Nevzad Djeric?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Muhamed Filipovic?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And so on up until number 239.  Probably you didn't know some of

22     them; correct?

23        A.   That's correct.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see page 16.

Page 19988

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Did you meet your friends from Sanski Most in April, such as

 3     Mirzet Karabeg and others?

 4        A.   Which year?

 5        Q.   In 1992.  March, April, and May 1992.  Did you meet them to

 6     discuss defence issues?

 7        A.   It's possible I did, but I don't know whether these were the

 8     issues we discussed.  I had nothing to do with them.  They were from

 9     Sanski Most, and we were from the Kljuc municipality.

10        Q.   All right.  Please have a look at the second paragraph here.

11     During April and May 1992, the representatives of the TO staff,

12     Bosanski Kljuc, and religious officials attended a number of meetings in

13     Sanski Most, Prijedor, and Kozarac at which a decision was made to begin

14     an armed rebellion by which they would achieve their goals to topple the

15     legally elected government organs, to undermine the combat power of the

16     Serbian Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and eventually

17     subjugate and destroy the people in the territory of the former

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbian Krajina?

19        A.   This is incorrect.  This is just a number of falsifications.  I

20     don't know who wrote that, but it's obvious that it's very tendentiously

21     written.  And in a sense this does not stand.

22        Q.   Is it true that the relay facility near Kljuc at Kamici -- or,

23     rather, Ramicki Kamen - that's where the relay near Kljuc was - was it

24     destroyed?

25        A.   I don't know.

Page 19989

 1        Q.   In the next paragraph it says that the staff of your

 2     Territorial Defence issued an order that in the village of Ramici -- I'm

 3     sorry, Ramicki Kamen that a relay facility be destroyed and that this was

 4     done on the 15th of May; is that right?

 5        A.   That's not right at all.  It's absurd.  What sort of staff?

 6        Q.   Very well.  But we see further down that on the 27th of May the

 7     staff issued an order that in the morning, at a stretch of the regional

 8     road between Kljuc and Sanski Most near Busije, and then in Ramici and

 9     Krasulje, road blocks should be set up in order to prevent any passage of

10     police and army along that road.

11        A.   That's not true.

12        Q.   Which isn't true, that the order -- that the staff ordered this

13     or that the roadblocks were erected?

14        A.   It was impossible for the staff to meet under those circumstances

15     at all.

16        Q.   But is it the case that on the 27th of May incidents occurred on

17     these locations?

18        A.   Yes, that's right.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did Dusan Stojkovic, a police officer, assistant

20     commander of the police stationed in Kljuc, get killed in his car in

21     Krasulje -- or, rather, on the road between Ramici and Krasulje?

22        A.   I did hear of his death close to Ramici, and this was how it

23     happened:  Sabotage platoons set out to disarm someone, and that was how

24     fire came to be opened.

25        Q.   However, three policemen were -- survived, Ljubisa, Zoran Vracar,

Page 19990

 1     and others who were just wounded; did you hear of them?

 2        A.   Well, I did hear that there were 14 of them, that some were

 3     wounded, and that this individual was killed.

 4        Q.   On page 17 it goes on to say that those who participated in the

 5     ambush at Krasulje and Ramici were in fact ordered, those that were

 6     reported here under numbers 9 through 239, that they were ordered to open

 7     fire on the army and the police.  Don't you see that the investigating

 8     bodies do have this information that the order had arrived from the staff

 9     and that it was complied with and implemented?

10        A.   That's not true.

11        Q.   Do you wish to say that they -- their actions went above and

12     beyond the staff?

13        A.   I'm not saying anything.  But the area where this took place was

14     a location when -- where village guards were organised, first at night,

15     and then in day-time as well.  And this was local Bosnia population.

16     Krasulje was also 100 per cent Bosniak.  There were no attacks mounted by

17     the Bosniaks.

18             An announcement was broadcast on Radio Kljuc to the effect that

19     actions would be taken to disarm people, to have weapons surrendered, and

20     that any and all measures will be employed to that effect, and that a

21     sabotage platoon headed off for Krasulje.  This is information that I

22     learned at a later date, and I can't confirm that they're one hundred per

23     cent true.  I wasn't a participant in that event.  But I heard of it, and

24     I told you what I knew of it.

25        Q.   Thank you.  On the 27th of May, there were five or six incidents

Page 19991

 1     taking place during the same day in the municipality of Kljuc; right?

 2        A.   Well, the Serbian army did carry out raids from several

 3     directions into that area, and people were defending their homes.  This

 4     wasn't the case of people going elsewhere to do anything.  The incidents

 5     happened right by their homes.

 6        Q.   Mr. Egrlic, does a main road, a trunk road, pass through

 7     Velagici?

 8        A.   Yes, it does.

 9        Q.   Was not fire opened on that road and on the military column that

10     was passing along?

11        A.   Well, don't you know that there were columns after columns

12     passing along that road, firing upon the local population and the mosque,

13     not just in Velagici, but in Velecevo and other locations along the road.

14     This made the situation unsettling and probably that was the cause why

15     the incident took place.

16        Q.   And people were killed on the bus; right?

17        A.   Yes, so I heard.

18        Q.   Thank you.  In your statements, you say that on the 1st of June,

19     so not much later, civilians, Muslims were killed in a school in

20     Velagici; is that right?

21        A.   Yes, so I heard.

22        Q.   And those documents that were admitted here, don't they refer to

23     that very incident?

24        A.   I believe so.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Not "documents," but

Page 19992

 1     "headstones."

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is just for the record:

 3     65 ter 23653, it was admitted as a P here.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Don't you know, Mr. Egrlic, that Serb investigating bodies did

 6     carry out an investigation into these events?

 7        A.   I did here of it during one of my testimonies.  I also heard that

 8     they were held in a prison for 18 days and then released.

 9        Q.   Well, you were released as well, but you were charged, too.

10     Release does not equal termination of proceedings.

11        A.   Well, 130 people were killed there.  Had someone's chickens been

12     killed, that would have warranted a more serious detention, and longer

13     than 18 days.

14        Q.   I do believe that at some point we will admit the documents

15     underlying the investigation that I've referred to, and these people were

16     tried, after all.  It wasn't the way you put it.

17             Do you mean to say, then, that Velagici were under attack simply

18     because they happened to have a road passing through along which an army

19     was going from Knin to Yugoslavia and that the fact that there's a column

20     there, it constitutes a legitimate target?

21        A.   There was provocation on a daily basis and on that day, too.

22        Q.   Thank you.  You said a moment ago that there had not been that

23     much organisation or weapons.  Do you mean to say that the only thing you

24     had was this staff, and that the 200 men, Abdic's men, were not

25     combatants?

Page 19993

 1        A.   I don't know that.  What I can tell you is what happened up to

 2     when I was arrested.  What happened then, after my arrest, how many

 3     people got organised and involved, I don't know.

 4        Q.   In the Una and the Sana valleys, or, rather, in the Sana valley

 5     where Kljuc is, was there an organisation of the Patriotic League even

 6     before the war?  Was it not organised under the direction and supervision

 7     of Sefer Halilovic?

 8        A.   I don't know about that.

 9        Q.   Do you mean to say that they were able to go about this activity

10     unbeknownst to you as a prominent member of the staff?

11        A.   Well, I don't think that it was a covert activity.  I'd rather

12     say that there was no such activity.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Were you regularly in touch with your head office in

14     Sarajevo?

15        A.   Whatever necessitated contacts with the party could be addressed

16     with them up until, let's say, September of 1991.  All communication was

17     down thereafter and we weren't able to receive TV or radio signals

18     because the relay had been rerouted to receive news from Belgrade and

19     Banja Luka.  Therefore, we had no contacts with Sarajevo.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Now that you've mentioned relay, I see that you

21     mentioned the issue in other testimonies as well.  Can you tell us, when

22     was it that TV Sarajevo made it impossible for the Serbs to view

23     TV Belgrade?

24        A.   I don't know.

25        Q.   It was in 1991, Mr. Egrlic.

Page 19994

 1             Tell us, in April of 1992, who was the person in charge of

 2     Radio Kljuc?

 3        A.   Azemir Burzic, who was later replaced.

 4        Q.   Azemir Burzic or Buzanic?

 5        A.   Burzic.

 6        Q.   A Muslim, therefore.  Until which day in April?

 7        A.   I don't know.

 8        Q.   Very well.  Is it your evidence, then, that Sefer Halilovic did

 9     not supervise the establishment of the Patriotic League in your region?

10        A.   I told you that I didn't know anything about it.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D4282.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Have a look at what Sefer Halilovic has to say.  He is developing

15     certain views here, and it was signed by Sefer Halilovic in

16     September of 1992.  In paragraph 1, he says as follows:

17             [As read] "I have followed," he says, "the development of the

18     BH Army in the Bihac region with full attention, and in organising its

19     embryo of the Patriotic League I was in the region personally on six

20     occasions; therefore, the situation in the wider region from the pre-war

21     days till today is completely familiar to me.  I was even in a position

22     to alert the government organs in that region to the fact that armed

23     combat was being obstructed.  Since they waited for a rather long period

24     of time while the war was ranging in all of the Republic of

25     Bosnia-Herzegovina, they were still negotiating with the aggressor in

Page 19995

 1     this region."

 2             So is it not true that up until the 27th of May you did not in

 3     fact have any hostilities in your area, at a time when a war was raging

 4     elsewhere in Bosnia?

 5        A.   Well, it's Sefer's statement.  I don't know what he had in mind.

 6     But the fact of the matter is that we did not have any sort of conflicts

 7     or confrontations, that we were trying to reach an agreement over

 8     everything, and to thus preserve the peace.

 9        Q.   You did not have any conflicts with the Serbs; right?

10        A.   With no one.

11        Q.   Look at the next paragraph.  We will come to that issue.  But do

12     you not agree with me that in the first paragraph he does object to the

13     fact that negotiations had been going on for so long with the aggressor?

14     So does he think that your neighbours from Kljuc were the aggressor?

15        A.   You should put that question to him.

16        Q.   Thank you.  In paragraph 2, he goes on to say that they relied on

17     proven, qualified, and capable personnel, and primarily these were

18     individuals from the Patriotic League.  And he makes reference to

19     Osmanagic, Drekovic, et cetera.

20             So do you have any doubts about the fact that in the Sana and

21     Una valleys Sefer Halilovic did appear on six occasions to supervise the

22     establishment of the armed forces?

23        A.   You asked me the question already.  I don't know.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the document admitted,

Page 19996

 1     please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No.  This is an example of wasting time.  Witness

 3     already said to ask Mr. Halilovic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I don't think that we can

 5     secure his appearance here.  He will not appear of his own accord, that's

 6     for sure.  But this is -- this refutes what the witness has been saying

 7     all along, i.e., that there had been no organisation.  And this is an

 8     official document.  It is not a statement.  It's an official act produced

 9     by the staff of the Supreme Command of the armed forces with reference to

10     its organisation.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  There's no basis to admit this.  We'll not admit it.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Let's see if we can agree on what he says here, that at a time

16     when a war was raging throughout the BiH, you kept on negotiating --

17             JUDGE KWON:  This is again a waste of time.  Witness denied he

18     knows anything about this content.  Then you -- it's time for you to move

19     to next topic.  Just put your case to the witness.  And having heard his

20     answer, you proceed to your next topic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Excellency, if you had

22     more confidence in me, you would see that I am moving to a different

23     topic.  But the queue I wanted to give was that they had been negotiating

24     for two months, and I wanted to address the issue of the relationship

25     between the Muslims and the Serbs while the war was already on.  That is

Page 19997

 1     the topic, the new topic.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  What is your question for the witness?

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Just a moment, please.  The walking out of the members of MBO and

 5     SDA of a session, was that taken as a justification for illegal

 6     construction works in Kljuc?

 7        A.   I don't know about that.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please look at document

 9     P3458.  P3458.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   You can see here in the heading that it reads "Socialist Republic

12     of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bosanski Kljuc Municipal Assembly," so this is the

13     Bosnian municipality?

14        A.   What do you mean Bosniak?  You are claiming something that has

15     absolutely no connection to reality.  There was one municipality of

16     Kljuc.  It was not called either Bosniak or Serb.  This is the

17     year 1992, 31st of January, there was no question of there being a Muslim

18     municipality.

19        Q.   But we have this document in front of us and it says

20     Bosanski Kljuc municipality as opposed to the Serbian Kljuc.

21             Now, let us see what was the reason for the deputies to walk out,

22     and it says, in paragraph 2:

23             "The reason for leaving the session this time was the fact that

24     the SDS Assemblymen in the Joint Assembly rejected objections to the

25     agenda that were based on a request to protect legality."

Page 19998

 1             And the next paragraph:

 2             "There were reasoned requests by SDA and MBO for the item of

 3     illegal construction in Kljuc municipality not to be removed from the

 4     agenda," et cetera.

 5             So you had a Joint Assembly, a Serbian Assembly, and a

 6     Bosnian Assembly, as was the case throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that

 7     what it says?

 8        A.   Well, that was not the case.  There was only one Assembly, and

 9     eventually we had only Serbian Assembly.  There was no Muslim Assembly.

10        Q.   Well, it says quite the opposite here.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   It says here, Assemblymen of the Bosanski Kljuc

14     Municipal Assembly.  Do you recognise these signatures?  One of them is

15     Asim Egrlic.  Do you see a man called Memisevic or Hrmcic?  Look a little

16     bit to the -- closer to the top.  It says:

17             "At the second session, held immediately after withdrawing from

18     the work of the Joint Assembly, the Bosanski Kljuc examined in detail the

19     situation that had arisen and established that the move was made -- that

20     was made was the only possible thing to do, as the unruliness and

21     lawlessness had to be finally pointed out, highlighting them now as the

22     basis and the only cause for the cessation of the work of the

23     Joint Assembly, and not political reasons which are constantly being

24     highlighted by the SDS."

25             So you really believe that illegal construction works was

Page 19999

 1     sufficient reason for you to walk out of the Assembly, of the

 2     Joint Assembly?

 3        A.   I don't know.  It is possible that there was participation and

 4     debate about this item of the agenda, but I think that the Assembly

 5     suspended its work until April.  There may have been disagreements on

 6     certain issues, but the Assembly continued to operate with regard to

 7     other issues that requested the consent of all political parties.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please ask questions one by one.

 9             Mr. Egrlic, do you recognise your signature there?  It seems to

10     be the second item on the right part.  We can zoom in.  Second row, on

11     the right column.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Is it your signature?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it is.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  This is already in evidence as P3458.  So although it

19     says here immediately after abandoning the work in the Joint Assembly,

20     you nevertheless continued to work occasionally in the Joint Assembly; is

21     that correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And that was the situation that prevailed until the beginning of

24     May; is that right?

25        A.   Yes, it is.

Page 20000

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that the Crisis Staff of Banja Luka, or

 2     the ARK, adopted conclusions to the effect that they called upon people

 3     not to move out from the Autonomous Region of Krajina?

 4        A.   I don't know about that.

 5        Q.   Do you recall that people of all religions and ethnicities,

 6     before the war broke out, because of the tensions and the war in Croatia,

 7     were actually leaving all municipalities?

 8        A.   Well, there were individual departures.  However, mass departures

 9     took place as of the 1st of June, as far as Kljuc was concerned, and

10     everybody left by September, with the exception of a couple of hundred

11     people who remained behind.

12        Q.   Is it correct that before conflicts and confrontations broke out

13     in Kljuc, Serbs as well were moving out of Kljuc?

14        A.   Well, yes, it is possible that there were individual cases.  It

15     was a process that was an on-going one from the previous war, because the

16     living conditions were harsh.  People emigrated to other countries in

17     search for work and better living conditions.  So it was only natural and

18     normal for people to be leaving.

19        Q.   Are you trying to say that Serbs didn't suffer from any sort of

20     fear?

21        A.   I don't know.  I don't think they had any reason to be afraid.

22        Q.   Between January and April 1992, would you say that more Serbs

23     left during that period than before?  You were the president of the

24     municipal government; is that right?

25        A.   Yes, it is.  And it is possible that that was the case, but we

Page 20001

 1     did not make a survey of the situation in order to be able to tell you

 2     exactly how many people had left.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that Republika Srpska under the

 4     Lisbon Agreement had a right to have its own police force?

 5        A.   I don't know.

 6        Q.   According to all plans, including the Dayton Agreement, was

 7     Republika Srpska entitled to have its independent police force and if

 8     that is still the case today?

 9        A.   I know that it has its own police force today, but I cannot

10     comment on the rest.

11             JUDGE KWON:  How relevant is it?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellency, you really have

13     no faith in me.  I'm exactly moving to a new topic.  This is the issue of

14     insignia, and the witness pointed this out as a major stumbling block.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   All right, you don't know about that.  But you did testify to the

18     fact that you had been told -- but first of all, let me tell you this:

19     Is it true that the police force was divided in late March or early

20     April?

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the last part

22     of the question.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The total rifts in the police force

24     happened after the 7th of May.  After the 7th of May.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20002

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You helped us elucidate one thing.  So Banjac and you

 2     and the others went to see the chief of the Banja Luka region CSB

 3     Mr. Zupljanin.  Did that take place in April, or when?

 4        A.   Well, I cannot remember the exact date, whether it was in April

 5     or in May.  I would have thought it was May.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So war is everywhere in Bosnia, whereas you as a

 7     member of a mixed delegation are paying a visit to Mr. Zupljanin to

 8     discuss the issue of the police force; is that correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And then you say that Mr. Zupljanin told you that he wasn't able

11     to do anything about it, that that was a decision taken at a higher

12     level; is that correct?

13        A.   Yes, it is.

14        Q.   Do you know that the decision and the agreement to divide the

15     police was taken on or around 27th of March, and that Mr. Mandic had sent

16     a dispatch referring to the Lisbon Agreement in order to have two police

17     forces formed?

18        A.   I don't know about that.  You are talking about an agreement that

19     has not been adopted.

20        Q.   Let's leave that aside.  As far as Serbs are

21     confirmed [as interpreted], this agreement was adopted.  Without it, it

22     wouldn't have been any independent Bosnia.  Now, when you said "this

23     higher level," what did you mean by that, when you said that this

24     decision came from a higher level?

25        A.   I don't know.  Mr. Zupljanin said that.  I suppose he was

Page 20003

 1     referring to the government or the Assembly.  It is well known which

 2     bodies are -- can make such decisions.

 3        Q.   If Stojan Zupljanin told you that it had come from a higher

 4     level, did you try to inquire with your police commander in Kljuc to find

 5     out whether he had received this dispatch, where it came from, and what

 6     was the basis for separating the police force into two entities?

 7        A.   No.  I didn't receive that.  I didn't inquire about that.  I know

 8     that on the 7th of May, when the 6th Krajina Brigade entered the town,

 9     flags were hoisted, the plaque on the police building was changed, and it

10     was now called a Serbian police.  There were Serbian flags on all

11     official buildings, et cetera.

12             Now, the thing -- this thing with relation to our visit to

13     Banja Luka was just a matter of formality which was arranged by

14     Mr. Kondic and Banjac in order to persuade us that nothing could be done

15     and that was the end of story and that the police would have to be

16     divided and that one part of it will become the Serbian police.

17        Q.   In one of your earlier statements, you said that some of the

18     local Bosniaks were mobilised by force but later managed to escape and

19     had to face consequences.  Were they mobilised by a force by the JNA or

20     by the Serbian police?

21        A.   Well, that had to do with this part that deals with mobilisation

22     or membership in the TO or JNA.  It wasn't about the police.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that this decision as well, concerning the

24     symbols and insignia just, like the previous decision concerning the

25     integration into the Republika Srpska, was delayed by the Serbs, because,

Page 20004

 1     as you said, the real rift happened after the 7th of May?

 2        A.   That's correct.

 3        Q.   They delayed it for the whole period between March and May; is

 4     that correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Now, did you, the Muslim Bosniak leadership, did you ask the --

 7     ask the Bosnians to --

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Karadzic please repeat the question.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, this will be your last question.  Could

11     you repeat your question.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   If we can briefly look at 65 ter 22083.  It's your

14     1997 statement.

15             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters couldn't hear your last question,

16     so could you repeat that.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   The question was:  Did you ask the Bosniak police officers,

19     Muslims, to take a leave of absence so that that would give you time for

20     reaching an agreement with the SDS concerning the symbols and the

21     insignia?  This is what is says on page 4.  Did you request that or not?

22     You said you didn't.

23        A.   Well, they had already been sent on leave, so I don't remember

24     whether we specifically suggested this course to them, but it was already

25     a fait accompli.

Page 20005

 1        Q.   The penultimate passage says -- [No interpretation]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  You are too fast and we didn't get translation.

 3             We'll continue tomorrow.

 4             Mr. Egrlic, we'll adjourn for today and continue tomorrow

 5     morning.  In the meantime, you are required not to discuss with anybody

 6     else about your testimony.  Do you understand that, sir?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Tomorrow, 9.00.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.30 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

12                           October 2011, at 9.00 a.m.