Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 20324

 1                           Wednesday, 26 October 2011

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 2.15 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.

 7             How are you, Mr. Atlija?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well, thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

11     Excellencies -- good afternoon, Excellencies.  Good afternoon to all.

12                           WITNESS:  IVO ATLIJA [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Atlija.

16        A.   Good afternoon.

17        Q.   We broke off when discussing the teacher, so I did not manage to

18     get a satisfactory answer as to what was happening in Brisevo and what

19     the authorities were not supposed to know about; however, if you don't

20     have an answer to that, I would like to ask you why you did not mention

21     him in your first statements.  You said that only two Serb women lived

22     there with you, but you did not mention him, you mentioned him only

23     later.

24        A.   I mentioned him later because he worked at Brisevo.  He had an

25     apartment in Prijedor and a house in the village of Donji Rasavci.  From


Page 20325

 1     time to time he came to the house of his wife's father, because he

 2     married a woman from Brisevo as well.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In your statements in the Brdjanin case, 11962 and

 4     otherwise, you said that inter-ethnic life was almost idyllic out there.

 5     How can you explain that?  How can you explain why you were spying on one

 6     another when it was so idyllic?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I ask Mr. Karadzic not to misstate

 9     the evidence.  The witness didn't say that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Correct.

11             Mr. Karadzic.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, while I'm on the feet:  Mr. Karadzic

13     said, I don't know why you don't mention him in your first statements,

14     and it was in the plural.  The witness had only given one statement prior

15     to the statement that Mr. Karadzic took him to on Friday.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that Mr. Atlija made a

18     statement in Croatia as well.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

20        Q.   Could you please help me with that.  What was the name, HIC?  Is

21     that right?

22        A.   I gave my first statement at the Croatian Information Centre.

23     That's what that institution was called at the time.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   And then you gave a statement to this Court or, rather, this


Page 20326

 1     Office of the Prosecutor; right?

 2        A.   I gave my second statement to the commission of the

 3     US Department of State.  The commission for war crimes.  That also

 4     happened in Croatia.  And at some point in 2000, I believe, I gave a

 5     statement to this Court.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  So a total of three statements before your first

 7     testimony; right?

 8        A.   The statement from the Croatian Information Centre was translated

 9     into English and used as a basis for the statement I gave to this

10     Tribunal in 2000; whereas the one that I gave to the commission of the

11     US Department of State is something I've never seen since.

12        Q.   Thank you.  On page 11 of this statement to the

13     Croatian Information Centre, you said that inter-ethnic relations between

14     Serbs and Croats were absolutely fine and that you played football

15     together, and so on and so forth; however, you were asked in the Brdjanin

16     case how come, when villages, Serb, Croat, and Muslim ones, were

17     practically pure, all of them.  And you said, Well, we socialised.  So

18     your good relations consisted of socialising; right?  Otherwise you all

19     lived in your own respective villages; right?

20        A.   It is correct that the villages were almost 100 per cent

21     populated by either Serbs or Croats or Muslims.  However, until the

22     beginning of these election campaigns and all of these changes in 1990,

23     there weren't any incidents.  There weren't any serious incidents.  There

24     weren't any major quarrels or disagreements.  We played football

25     together.  For example, we played music at parties in neighbouring


Page 20327

 1     Serb-populated and Muslim-populated villages.  We never paid any

 2     attention to what their ethnic background was and what their religious

 3     affiliation was.  We thought that it didn't matter to them either.

 4     Certainly it did not matter to us.  The first incidents -- actually, what

 5     happened was that you could see that people were not as close as they

 6     used to be, when these national parties, or whatever they are called,

 7     were being established during the election campaigns.

 8             And now, what you said about this spying on one another, I never

 9     said that.  I never said that there was spying on one another.  I said in

10     that statement -- or, rather, I wrote in that statement that this

11     teacher - I don't know what the verb I used in the statement was - now,

12     was it "spy"? - but I did not say that it was mutual.  I did not say it

13     was both ways, that somebody was spying on us and that we were spying on

14     someone else and that it went that way.  No.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let us try to get the right order, what the

16     sequence of events was.  Do you agree that it was in 1989 that the HDZ

17     was founded in Croatia?

18        A.   I don't know exactly when it was established in Croatia.  I'm

19     here to testify about what happened in Prijedor and in the Prijedor area

20     where I took part, where I felt this on my very own skin.  I can say now

21     that I assume that that was the year when the HDZ was established in

22     Croatia, but I don't know the exact date.

23        Q.   Thank you.  First of all, how far away is the Croatian border

24     from Prijedor as the crow flies?

25        A.   I don't know exactly, but it's not far away.


Page 20328

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the HDZ in Croatia won the

 2     election on the 20th of April, 1990?

 3        A.   The HDZ won the elections in Croatia in April 1990 as far as I

 4     know, or, rather, as far as I can remember.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that before that the HDZ had entered

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina triumphantly, the Croat areas in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 7     and that even the Bosnian Croats voted in those elections in Croatia?

 8        A.   I don't know about other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I cannot

 9     say because I was not there, simply.  However, that was not the case in

10     our area.  There was no HDZ, there wasn't any vote in any election in

11     Croatia, at least not we, the Croats of our area.  I cannot say anything

12     about other areas because I wasn't there.

13        Q.   I wasn't in Western Herzegovina either, but it was in the media.

14     There were these impressive photographs of HDZ rallies with all the

15     insignia from Croatia, with all of President Tudjman's rhetoric; don't

16     you remember all of that?

17        A.   I remember that there were HDZ rallies, especially in

18     Western Herzegovina.  There were such rallies in other parts of

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina too, but I cannot tell you exactly which month or

20     which year.  I can also tell you with certainty that there weren't any

21     rallies that were organised in the area where I was.

22        Q.   Thank you.  How powerful was the Serb democratic party on the

23     20th of April, 1990, when the HDZ won in Croatia?

24        A.   I am not qualified to answer that question.  I don't know how

25     powerful the Serb Democratic Party was, and I don't know in what sense


Page 20329

 1     you mean this, "powerful."

 2        Q.   Well, you say that before ethnic relations deteriorated in

 3     Prijedor things were fine but then the political parties were

 4     established.  And can I tell you that the SDA and the HDZ had already

 5     been established when the SDS was established.  The HDZ was established

 6     even a year and a half before in Croatia.  So who do you ascribe this to:

 7     to the SDS, or these other parties that were the first to be established,

 8     that actually set the temperature, if you will, in terms of the campaign?

 9        A.   I'm going to repeat this once again.  I testify here about what

10     happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina; whereas you keep talking to me about when

11     the HDZ was established in Croatia and you compare it to the

12     establishment of the SDS in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Whereas I am here to

13     speak about what I know had happened in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I kindly ask

14     you not to confuse what happened in Croatia and what happened in

15     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I'm not competent to answer questions about Croatia.

16     I cannot.

17        Q.   Mr. Atlija, does that mean that you are going to testify only

18     about what you saw yourself personally?

19        A.   In my statement, the one that I gave to this Court and the

20     statement I gave to the Croatian Information Centre, I tried to emphasise

21     what it was that I personally experienced, what it was that I personally

22     saw, and what, on the other hand, I heard from persons who experienced

23     this themselves.  I always tried to make a distinction in order to avoid

24     any misunderstandings.  Also, as far as the media is concerned, now

25     you're asking me about different things from Croatia and you're asking me


Page 20330

 1     about the establishment of the HDZ in Croatia and the victory of the HDZ

 2     in Croatia and so on and so forth, of course we could all see and hear

 3     this in the media; however, as for the events that took place in Croatia,

 4     I cannot testify about that.  Once again I say, I was in Brisevo, I was

 5     in the Prijedor region.  I can testify about that, as I've already said.

 6     I can tell you exactly what it was that I experienced, what I saw, and

 7     what others told me.  For example, my mother, who was also there.  Also

 8     my sister, my relatives, my friends.  Whereas what happened in Croatia

 9     was quite far away, wasn't it?

10        Q.   01905236 is the page where you promised that you would clearly

11     make a distinction between what you saw yourself and heard yourself and

12     what, on the other hand, you heard about from others.  However, I'm

13     asking you whether what happened in Croatia reverberated in

14     Bosnia-Herzegovina; yes or no?

15        A.   Again you're putting a question that can have a whole lot of

16     answers.  That is an assumption.  I assume that all of these events

17     reverberate in Bosnia-Herzegovina; however, I can also tell you that what

18     happens in America or in Bangladesh or China also reverberate in

19     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20        Q.   The same kind of reverberation?

21        A.   Well, not the same intensity.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let's come to your question.  Your

23     time is limited, Mr. Karadzic.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Well, this was the question:  You pointed out in the Stakic trial


Page 20331

 1     on the 3rd of July, 5551 to page 5553, you said that Serbs in March 1992

 2     were in their own cafes or were returning from the front line and you

 3     said: [In English] "They used to say they would never allow that part of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina -- that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina become Croatian."

 5             [Interpretation] Was that part of Bosnia-Herzegovina ever a part

 6     of Croatia?

 7        A.   It is true that these persons who were returning from the

 8     Croatian front line were saying this.  They were boasting about what they

 9     did in Croatia.  They said that they would plant onions at the Maksimir

10     football stadium in Zagreb, and so on.

11        Q.   That's not what I'm asking you.  I'm asking you whether Prijedor

12     was part of Croatia, and was that during the Second World War, during

13     German occupation?

14        A.   As far as I know history, Prijedor was officially part of Croatia

15     during the Second World War.  But I'm telling you yet again, I'm not here

16     to testify about the Second World War.  I was born almost 20 years after

17     the end of the Second World War.

18        Q.   Sir, but this is your very own sentence, that the Serbs were

19     saying that they would never allow that part of Bosnia to be a part of

20     Croatia.  And that is what you said by way of an accusation.  You said

21     that that contributed to a worsening of relations, and I'm asking you

22     whether they had any reason for that.  Did you hear Dalibor Brozovic say

23     that Croatia would defend itself at the Drina River?

24        A.   What Dalibor Brozovic said and when he said it, I don't know.

25        Q.   That will do.  That will do.  Thank you, I just asked you whether


Page 20332

 1     you heard about this.

 2             Mr. Atlija, you have already shown your partiality here.  I'm

 3     just putting a simple question to you:  You are accusing the Serbs of

 4     raising the temperature there, and I'm asking you whether there was any

 5     reason for that.

 6        A.   If you allow me, I'll answer.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where I lived and where I worked,

 9     they had no reason for that.  There were no threats, no military threats,

10     or any other threats by other ethnic communities.  That is to say, not

11     from the Muslim community, not from the Croat community.  The Croat

12     population in that area, if I can remember the census figures correctly,

13     the census that took place immediately before that, there were about

14     7.000 Croats in the municipality of Prijedor.  Compared to the number of

15     Serbs who lived in that municipality, and Muslims as well, that was

16     negligible, that was tiny.  So we could not be a threat to anyone.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Sir, you brought this up, and I'm saying to you now:

18     Before the Second World War, the ratio was even more in favour of the

19     Serbs, but nevertheless the Serbs suffered in Prijedor during the

20     Second World War at the hands of Croats; right?

21        A.   What the ethnic composition of the population was before the

22     Second World War is something I don't know.  I don't have the

23     information.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Still I'm struggling to understand the relevance of


Page 20333

 1     these questions.  Let us move on.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, also can Mr. Karadzic please give

 5     proper transcript page cites, because I can't find what he's talking

 6     about.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It is on page 5553, when the witness asked whether

 8     he spoke to any of the Serbs that you knew about why they were carrying

 9     arms, and he answered to the effect that here are the explanation that --

10     the most frequent explanation was that they only wanted to successfully

11     defend Yugoslavia and blah, blah.

12             But taken out of the context, the witness will find it very

13     difficult to follow your question.  But most of all, I see the -- I doubt

14     the relevance of these line of questions.

15             Let's please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this line of

17     questioning takes us to the main question.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. Witness, you said that the Serbs took over the power in

20     Prijedor on the 30th of April.  Do you know what was the immediate cause

21     for this taking over of power?  Or, more specifically, are you aware of

22     the telegrams which were arriving from Sarajevo and concerned the

23     beginning of the attack against the JNA and the Serbs?  There were

24     several telegrams, and the last one which was the most explicit arrived

25     on the 29th.  Yes or no?  If you were not aware, just tell us.  Yes or


Page 20334

 1     no?

 2        A.   No.  I'm not aware of any telegrams because simply I did not hold

 3     any position nor was I in a situation to know whether anyone received any

 4     telegrams or not.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Do you know that there were long

 6     negotiations about dividing the municipality into two or three parts?

 7        A.   Yes, I heard from my colleagues I was still working with that

 8     some negotiations were being conducted.  But as for the details whether

 9     that concerned division or the not, that is something I couldn't tell

10     you.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Is it true that Ljubija used to be a municipality?

12        A.   I think it was.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that at the time when the Serbs took over

14     the power in Prijedor, the Croats, that is to say, the HDZ, took over the

15     power in Ljubija, the HDZ took over the police station?  Is this

16     something you are aware of?

17        A.   I don't know where you have this information from.  It's not true

18     what you said.  The HDZ or the Croats did not take over the police

19     station or the power in Ljubija at any moment.  That is not correct.

20        Q.   All right.  We'll come to that.  So that means you also did not

21     hear how the Crisis Staff in Prijedor advised the minority Serbs to

22     accept these authorities, to be loyal, and to remain quiet?  You didn't

23     hear that?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   And were you reading your local newspapers, the "Glas" and the


Page 20335

 1     "Kozarski Vijesnik"?

 2        A.   Occasionally I read the "Kozarski Vjesnik."

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Tieger, I forgot to mention

 4     that we will continue to sit pursuant to Rule 15 bis today in the absence

 5     of Judge Morrison, who will join us tomorrow.

 6             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You also said that permits were necessary for non-Serbs to move

10     around.  Did the Serbs need these passes as well?

11        A.   Whether the Serbs needed any passes is something I do not know,

12     but I don't think the Serbs needed them.

13        Q.   Yes, you said that differently in the Stakic trial.  You said

14     that you didn't know.  And in the Zupljanin trial you said that they did

15     not need them.  Is that so?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please see 65 ter 35042.

17     And in that document the ERN number is 0401-0279.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, can the witness be allowed the

19     opportunity to answer Mr. Karadzic's question if he wishes to.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, whether -- I'm not sure whether the witness

21     answered the last question.

22             Do you remember that?  Did you say differently in the Stakic

23     trial that you didn't know, and in the Zupljanin trial you said that they

24     did not need them?  Can you answer the question?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can remember, and I'll tell you


Page 20336

 1     why I said so.  In the first instance I said that I was not sure, and I

 2     repeat it now that I'm not sure, but I think they did not need them,

 3     because I heard from Serbs later on various answers to this question.  If

 4     they were armed and uniformed and were carrying rifles, then they didn't

 5     need any passes.  And they were almost all armed and uniformed.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You said that in the year 2000 in the Stakic trial, and it is on

 8     page 5659.  However, you actually said you didn't know.  And in the

 9     Zupljanin case, in 16082, you said that they didn't need passes.

10             Please have a look at this document.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please zoom in.  I don't

12     think that we have the appropriate translation and I don't think that

13     this is it.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Mr. Atlija, these are Croatian intercepts.  The Croatian secret

16     service was listening.  And please have a look at the last sentence,

17     which says:  "Major Raskovic is the head of the press centre and

18     Major Celjenac threatened that he would have him shot if he did not write

19     and say what he told me and if he went around without any documents."

20             So can you see that it was very strict and that Serbs also had to

21     carry documents on them.

22        A.   This document was never presented to me.  I never saw anything

23     like this.  This is the first time I see it.  But let me repeat once

24     again:  If the locals from Ljubija who were Serbs travelled to Prijedor,

25     no passes were requested.  They would just board the bus and travel to


Page 20337

 1     Prijedor.  And for us non-Serbs it was not like that.

 2        Q.   How come that in 2002 you didn't know that and in 2010 and 2011

 3     you do?  How come that your memory is fresher now than it was in 2002?

 4        A.   My memory is always fresh, Mr. Karadzic, as much as it can be.

 5     And if I didn't know something, I always said that I didn't know or that

 6     I wasn't sure.  But please allow me, I also talk to people.  I sometimes

 7     have a chance to collect a piece of information or two so that if

 8     sometimes I'm not certain about something, I may be certain about that in

 9     future.  I may find the right answer.

10        Q.   Please now tell us which Serb told you that Serbs did not need

11     any passes?

12        A.   I never explicitly asked, for example, Mr. Zoran Pejic, a Serb

13     from Ljubija, Do you need a pass in order to travel to Prijedor?  But I

14     will tell you now that I'm not sure how many times, 10 or 20 or more, I

15     was present when, for example, Mr. Zoran Pejic, or a Serb whose nickname

16     was Steven, I don't remember his name, or Rade Zekanovic, for example, or

17     let me not try to remember all the names, when they travelled to

18     Prijedor, they would simple board the bus and go to Prijedor.  They went

19     wherever they liked or they would just go into their car and drive

20     wherever they wanted to go.

21        Q.   How do you know they weren't carrying a pass in their pocket?

22        A.   I did not inspect their pockets.  But if someone who was not a

23     Serb wanted to travel to Prijedor or somewhere at the time, it was a

24     procedure that took hours.  You couldn't simply come to the bus station,

25     board the bus, and travel somewhere.


Page 20338

 1        Q.   Thank you.  We'll bring another witness to testify about that, as

 2     you not know what they were carrying in their pockets.

 3             So you had a chance to see the incident in Hambarine.  Is it

 4     correct that the war in Bosnia began, let me not say on the 3rd of March

 5     when the Croatian forces attacked Brod or when they attacked Kupres on

 6     the 3rd of April, but could we say that the war began on the 6th of April

 7     in Bosnia?

 8        A.   I never said anywhere that I saw the incident in Hambarine.  I

 9     emphasised that I heard about the incident in Hambarine.  And secondly,

10     the answer to the second part of your question:  I think that the war in

11     Bosnia began when the Serbian military and paramilitary formations razed

12     to the ground the village of Ravno in Eastern Herzegovina.  I don't know

13     what the date of that incident was.

14        Q.   Ah-ha.  So that was while Croatia was still in Yugoslavia, so it

15     was a conflict with the Yugoslav People's Army; correct?  In 1991?

16        A.   I have told you that unfortunately I do not know the date so I

17     cannot give you the correct answer.

18        Q.   All right.  So I shouldn't ask you anything about Hambarine;

19     right?  You did not see that; correct?

20        A.   You may ask me whatever you like, but I emphasised in my

21     statement that I did not see the incident at Hambarine but that I heard

22     about it.  Let me repeat again:  I emphasise that if you have read my

23     statement, the statement never says in any place that I saw personally

24     this incident.

25        Q.   It took place on the 22nd of May; correct?


Page 20339

 1        A.   Yes, I think it took place in May 1992.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that there was an ultimatum by the police

 3     that the murders of the reservists should surrender themselves?  They

 4     included Aziz Aliskovic, who was a policeman.  Had you heard that this

 5     ultimatum had been issued first and that the dead-line was moved several

 6     times?

 7        A.   The ultimatum was broadcast on the then-Radio Prijedor.  However,

 8     I do not agree with your formulation, who were the murderers, or whatever

 9     you call them, as I do not know.  And I stressed that in my statement.  I

10     just know what I heard about the incident, that there was a shootout at

11     the checkpoint in Hambarine, that some people were injured.  I even think

12     that no one was killed, but I'm not sure.  This time I really cannot tell

13     you whether anyone was killed and on what side.  I heard the ultimatum on

14     the radio because it was broadcast all the time, and they wanted

15     Aziz Aliskovic in the first place.  That is correct.

16        Q.   Thank you.  If I tell you that there were six lads in a car - two

17     Croats and four Serbs - and that two Serbs were dead, two were seriously

18     wounded, and two were slightly wounded, so of the six people everyone was

19     hit, as I told you, does that sound familiar?

20        A.   As I told you, I heard about the shootout, I heard about the

21     incident, I heard that there were injured people.  I don't know if anyone

22     was dead.  I'm not happy to hear that someone was, if someone was, but I

23     cannot tell you anything more with certainty because I wasn't there.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you say, because you do say that you saw the

25     attack, you say, "I saw the attack from a tall tree together with


Page 20340

 1     Milan Buzuk," and you say that you heard about the ultimatum and so on.

 2     Didn't you put it that way in your statement given to the OTP on page 5/6

 3     on the 20th of October, 2000?

 4        A.   Mr. Karadzic, when I said that we were watching the attack on

 5     Hambarine, that was something else.  That was the attack which followed

 6     after the ultimatum.  We were on a hill-top, that is correct, we were on

 7     a hill-top and we climbed a tree so that we would see better.  Brisevo is

 8     at an attitude of around 495 metres, almost 500 metres.  These are the

 9     highest hills and you can see well Prijedor and the surrounding area from

10     these hills.  So that we could see the attack on Hambarine well in part.

11     But this is not about the incident.  You are trying to represent that I

12     said somewhere that I saw directly the incident.

13        Q.   I said the attack on Hambarine.  And how far is Brisevo from

14     Hambarine?

15        A.   As the crow flies, it's a couple of kilometres.  If you drive

16     along the road through the hills and valleys, then it's more.  It's

17     perhaps about ten kilometres or so.  But as the crow flies, it's just a

18     couple of kilometres.

19        Q.   Do you mean two, three, four?

20        A.   I think around two or three kilometres.

21        Q.   Thank you.  You then said that they shot at the Serbs as well;

22     correct?

23        A.   I said that one could hear shooting from the direction of

24     Hambarine at the soldiers who were attacking Hambarine.  It was just

25     infantry weapons, not heavy weapons, but one could hear the shooting;


Page 20341

 1     that's correct.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  As for the men who were in Hambarine, did they have a

 3     choice?  Were they asked to surrender their weapons and for Aliskovic to

 4     surrender himself, and did they have a choice or did they decide to turn

 5     Hambarine into a battle-field?

 6        A.   I think that the Serb side decided to turn Hambarine into a

 7     battle-field, and this incident was a good excuse for the beginning.  If

 8     they only wanted Aziz Aliskovic and a couple of murderers, as you say, it

 9     could have been resolved in another way, rather than razing a village to

10     the ground, killing many people, and just driving away many others.

11        Q.   I'm not asking you that.  And what you are saying is not true.

12     Something else is true.  And please answer my questions.  I'm asking you

13     this: whether they had any choice.  And let us move on to Kozarac.  Did

14     Kozarac have a choice?  Was an ultimatum issued to Kozarac to surrender

15     their weapons, and was it only after that that an attack occurred?  You

16     also talked about that.

17        A.   As for an ultimatum for Kozarac, I didn't talk about that because

18     I don't know that.  And I talked about the attack on Kozarac because you

19     can see it also, but the distance is much greater than the one to

20     Hambarine.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22        A.   And if you would allow me:  As for your question whether they had

23     any choice and whether a condition was set that they should surrender

24     their weapons, why would the Serbs have the right to put conditions to

25     others to surrender their weapons or do anything else or they would be


Page 20342

 1     forced to do that?  Why?

 2        Q.   Well, sir, because they were killing soldiers and civilians

 3     because they wanted war.  Is it clear to you that they were not attacked

 4     up until the end of May?  If it was the goal of the Serbs to attack them,

 5     they could have attacked them on the 6th of April.  Why didn't they

 6     attack them?  So let's leave that aside.

 7        A.   Mr. Karadzic, we could also say the Serbs could have attacked

 8     them on the 1st of October, the 23rd of November.  It's no answer, it's

 9     no reason for an attack.  Whether they attacked them in May or in April

10     or in June, I don't see any sense in that.

11        Q.   All right.  It's a sophism, so let's leave that aside.  Were

12     aware of the strength of the 5th Kozara Brigade?

13        A.   Before the war I was, myself, a reservist of the

14     5th Kozarac Brigade so I knew what the numerical strength in the

15     organisation and the composition of the brigade was.

16        Q.   Did you respond to the -- when you were called for mobilisation

17     from the brigade, in June, I think?

18        A.   No, I did not respond to these call-ups.

19        Q.   Can you confirm that the fighting for Kozarac lasted between

20     seven and eight days?  You spoke about that in the Stakic case on 5558 to

21     5559, pages of the transcript.

22        A.   We were able to see from Brisevo what was generally going on in

23     Kozarac, that there was shooting, that houses were burning.  We were able

24     to see, yes, that it went on for about seven, eight days.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour.


Page 20343

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  What the witness actually said was:  "We could

 3     see houses burning and this went on for days, I think seven or eight

 4     days."  In the Stakic transcript at page 5558 to 5559.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have a look at

 7     65 ter 18474.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did you know whether there were any armed units in Ljubija,

10     non-Serb paramilitary units?

11        A.   I don't know that there were any non-Serb paramilitary units in

12     Ljubija.  The only military or paramilitary unit I knew existed in

13     Ljubija was under the command of Slobodan and Djoko Taranjac, who were

14     brothers.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Look at this document, please, dated 18 May 1992.  It

16     says:

17             "In the local communes of Ljubija and Donja Ljubija, a unit the

18     size of a platoon armed mostly with rifles and sniper rifles, in the area

19     of Rizmanovici, Hambarine, and Biscani, there's a unit the size of a

20     company armed with rifles, mortars, and recoilless guns.  In Carakovo, a

21     unit the size of a platoon armed mostly with rifles."

22             So do you see that before all these incidents armed units existed

23     in these local communes?

24        A.   I first see this document now on display, written by the chief of

25     public security Drljaca, if I can recognise the signature.  But at that


Page 20344

 1     time I did not see these reports and I did not know anything about this

 2     at the time.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I tender this document.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No objection, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  It will be admitted.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D1816, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   You say that on 27 May the first attack on Brisevo occurred, and

11     it was a Croat, Nikola Juric, who was behind that attack.

12        A.   I never said that Mr. Nikola Juric was behind any attack.  I'm

13     asking you again not to put words in my mouth.

14        Q.   It says, statement to the Croatian Information Centre made in

15     January 1993.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04471.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You say, on page 7:

19             [In English] "... a delegation of men from Brisevo went to

20     Rasavci and to ask why they were being attacked.  The Serbs told them it

21     was a warning and that they should surrender all weapons, especially

22     Bofors.  The person behind all these was a Croat called Nikola Juric."

23        A.   I never said Nikola Juric was behind the attack.  The attack was

24     not organised or led by Nikola Juric.  And as far as we were able to

25     learn later, Nikola Juric deliberately provided wrong information.


Page 20345

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] You mean to the Serbs?  The Serb forces?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Do you know how many Croats joined the Serbs in suppressing this

 4     armed insurgency?

 5        A.   I don't know what kind of armed insurgency you're asking.  Just

 6     now you asked me about the attack on Brisevo and now you're talking about

 7     the suppression of an armed insurgency.

 8        Q.   Let's call it crisis.  This crises from end May to end July, how

 9     many Croats were part of the Serb forces and part of the Serb

10     administration and the Serb leadership?  How many Croats wanted to avoid

11     war and join the Serbs in these efforts?  Some of them, by the way,

12     called them traitors in public; do you know that?

13        A.   Now you're talking about a crisis.  What happened in Brisevo was

14     not a crisis.  It was terror against civilian population.  It was killing

15     and massacres.

16        Q.   It's up to the Trial Chamber to decide that at the end.  I'm

17     asking you for now:  Do you know that many Croats took the side of the

18     Serbs, such as this man Juric who you say provided wrong information to

19     the Serbs?

20        A.   It's not true that many Croats were on the Serb side.  There were

21     very few.  What you're saying about large number of Serbs -- of Croats is

22     not true.  A few of them responded to your mobilisation call-ups, went to

23     war in Croatia, and took part in these events in the area of Prijedor.

24        Q.   Is it true that you said you had no weapons at first and then you

25     said you had ten to 11 hunting rifles, plus one to two pistols?  You said


Page 20346

 1     that in your statement to the OTP in 2000, pages 6 and 7.  Is that

 2     correct?

 3        A.   I said that at the time when the Serb units attacked Brisevo we

 4     had no weapons because the weapons had been returned before that.  Those

 5     were the weapons of the former Territorial Defence, several M-48 rifles

 6     and some hunting weapons that were properly licensed and in legal

 7     possession of the people and a couple of pistols.  But all that had been

 8     surrendered to the then-Serb authorities or para-authorities.  And the

 9     attack happened after the weapons were returned.  Only when the Serb

10     forces were absolutely sure that there's not a single rifle, not a single

11     pistol, not a single bullet in our village, that's when we were attacked.

12        Q.   We'll see about that now.  In another case, at the Croatian

13     Information Centre on the 30th of January, 1D04471, you said that you had

14     the following: five M-48 rifle, one M-47 automatic rifle, one M-48 that

15     you had obtained at the black-market --

16        A.   Unlicensed.

17        Q.   -- five pistols and, whatchamacallthem, carbines; right?  You

18     varied your statements.

19        A.   I did not vary my statements.  I'll say it once again.  All those

20     weapons had been returned before the attack.  All the M-48s, five rifles,

21     one Russian automatic rifle, et cetera, they were returned to the

22     Taranjac brothers who led the Serb authorities then, and the hunting

23     rifles and pistols that were properly licensed were handed in in May

24     after that mortar attack.  They were handed in to the Serb authorities in

25     Rasavci.


Page 20347

 1        Q.   You say that first attack was a warning.  In fact, you say this:

 2     "There was no damage done."

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Atlija, yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'd simply ask Mr. Karadzic not to

 5     misquote the witness's evidence.  In his statement he says the village

 6     had ... and then lists a number of weapons, and then says they were all

 7     returned.  They were handed over.  And that's on page 7 of the English

 8     translation.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm just saying that he

11     said they had that many weapons.  I don't have the whole statement before

12     me.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Did you say there was no damage done after that first shelling?

15        A.   There was no damage to property and nobody was hurt, fortunately.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Further on you say that they asked you to return the

17     Bofors and you said whoever is found to have weapons will go to jail;

18     right?

19        A.   I believe what I said is this:  The Serbian military authorities

20     from Rasavci sent us a message asking for these Bofor s that we never

21     had.  And then they said they would come to our village, and with one of

22     the locals they will go door to door searching houses, and whoever is

23     found to have a weapon in the house will be taken to jail and his house

24     burned down.  There was no talk about the Bofors anymore.

25        Q.   Still you said that to the -- in the statement to the Croatian


Page 20348

 1     Information Centre, 04471, and on page 7 you said the owner of whatever

 2     weapon is found would be taken to jail.  But as time passes, you

 3     intensify your accusations against the Serbs, Mr. Atlija, isn't that

 4     right?

 5        A.   That's not true.  I'm not adding to any accusations against the

 6     Serbs.  I'm not accusing anyone in general when I'm talking about this

 7     attack on Brisevo.  I mean the Serbian authorities and the Serb

 8     paramilitaries who organised this, but I'm not accusing the Serbs as a

 9     whole.  I never accuse anyone as a whole.

10        Q.   In 1993 you say the owner of whatever weapon is found will go to

11     jail and now you say they would be killed.  How come your memory has

12     changed so much?

13        A.   In 1993 I had no opportunity of saying anything to anyone.  You

14     probably misquoted.  You misquoted probably by accident.  But I don't

15     have the statement before me now, and I can't read it.

16        Q.   On the 30th of January, 1993, did you give a statement to the

17     Croatian Information Centre?

18        A.   Yes, I did.  You're right.  I made a slip, not you.

19        Q.   So you did speak to someone in 1993?

20        A.   Yes, yes, I did.  I thought the date was wrong, but it's not.

21     You are right.  It was on the 30th of January, 1993.

22        Q.   And then you skipped some time and go straight on to

23     24th of June.  But let's go back a little.  Do you remember the

24     30th of April , who attacked Prijedor?  Do you know about that attack and

25     who was attacking?


Page 20349

 1        A.   30th April, you mean 1992?

 2        Q.   No, 30th of May.

 3        A.   The 30th of May, 1992, we were able to hear shooting in Prijedor

 4     from Brisevo.  Later on, talking to other people we learned more.  We

 5     were able to hear that a small group of armed men led by Slavko Ecimovic

 6     from Carakovo, or Zeger, tried to attack either the whole of Prijedor or

 7     to take a part of Prijedor.  I can't tell, but they were defeated,

 8     captured, and killed.  Slavko Ecimovic was taken to Omarska camp and

 9     killed there.  And after the revenge, his whole family, civilians were

10     killed, his wife, his brother, the brother's wife who was pregnant.

11        Q.   Did you see that?  Did you see those things you are saying?

12        A.   I will answer.  His children were brought to Rade -- by

13     Rado Zekanovic, a policeman, to Brisevo.  All this is very viable,

14     Mr. Karadzic.

15        Q.   We'll ask other witnesses about that.  I want you to testify

16     about what you've seen.  You did not see on TV the HDZ marching in

17     triumph throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, and you are telling us about

18     things that you heard about.

19        A.   Well, then ask me specific questions.  I'm telling you what I

20     saw, but you keep trying to get me to give you answers that would suit

21     you.  I'm telling you about what I lived through.  And if that is not

22     convenient, I'm so sorry.

23        Q.   So you don't know anything about the 30th of May, the

24     31st of May, the 1st of June?  You don't know about that fighting, or you

25     don't know much.  Tell us what you know.


Page 20350

 1        A.   If you want me to emphasise this, I'll emphasise it.  We were

 2     able to hear shooting in Prijedor from Brisevo.  We were not able to see

 3     it because Prijedor is a town not so close to Brisevo, so we can't see

 4     what goes on there.  But it's true we could hear the shooting.

 5        Q.   Then you talk about the next crisis, or attack, as you wish, in

 6     Brisevo on the 24th of June, 1992; correct?  24 of June?

 7        A.   Brisevo was attacked on the 24th of July.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we look, please, at 1D4473.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Here's what it looks like seen through the eyes of the military

11     intelligence service, the 6th Partisan Brigade.  I believe it's from

12     Sanski Most.  Extremists, Muslim extremists are coming; preparations are

13     going on against the Serbian people for conspiracy; groups of extremists

14     are pulling out of populated areas into wooded areas; and they use

15     dugouts, they conduct training there.  By night they bring food and other

16     stuff.  More numerous groups are in Kurevo forest.  Around

17     100 Green Berets.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters do not have a reference.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   In Brisevo, up to 15; in Carakovo, up to 30 extremists.  And in

21     the wider area of Stara Rijeka mine, about 50 extremists, Green Berets.

22     And it says, Block enemy forces in certain places, including Atlija

23     village.  Block the enemy forces and prevent them from withdrawing.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]


Page 20351

 1        Q.   The units should be given combat sets.  Support to be given by a

 2     mortar platoon 120 millimetres from Javorik area.  Prepare them for

 3     firing on Brisevo and Kurevo.  Number 9, it is strictly prohibited to

 4     open fire unless necessary, that is, until the enemy appears.  This is

 5     Colonel Basara who was rather well spoken about in this courtroom even.

 6             Are you deceiving me, Mr. Atlija, or did you not know about the

 7     existence of such information?

 8        A.   I'm not deceiving anyone, Mr. Karadzic, least of all this

 9     Honourable Court.  But I'm more and more inclined to believe that these

10     documents do not tell the truth.  They were no military units in Brisevo.

11     I was living there at the time, and I can guarantee there were no

12     military units at the time in Brisevo except when the members of your

13     5th Krajina and 6th Kozara Brigade arrived.  What this says here, it's

14     strictly prohibited to open fire until necessary, what did they consider

15     necessary?  Fire was opened against women and children and men.  Not a

16     single woman, child, or man was killed in Brisevo carrying weapons or

17     wearing a uniform, so you cannot convince me now that there were any

18     military units in Brisevo that offered resistance to the 6th Krajina and

19     5th Kozara Brigade.

20        Q.   Did you not say that soldiers came to the village and asked who

21     was firing at them, and you said that no one was firing from there, and

22     they said all right and that there was no reason for you to worry, and

23     they just; isn't that right?

24        A.   We were hiding in the basement, since it was made of concrete,

25     and we were hiding from all the shelling.  Soldiers came with insignia.


Page 20352

 1     My father and Pero Dimac left the basement, and they were shouting,

 2     Why -- they were shouting, Who is firing at us?  And my father answered,

 3     No one is firing.  See, we have no weapons.  And they asked, Who is in

 4     the basement?  And --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness start

 6     answering again.  He is speaking too fast for interpretation.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Atlija, could you repeat your answer again.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were hiding in the basement

 9     because there was shelling.  Ten or 12 soldiers came wearing military

10     police insignia with red bands around their sleeves.  My father and

11     Pero Dimac went to the soldiers, and the soldiers were shouting, Why are

12     you firing at us?  And my father answered that none of us were firing,

13     that they were the only ones who were shooting, and he said that we have

14     no weapons anyway.  They asked him who is in the basement, and his answer

15     was that there were only a few women in the basement.  The soldiers said

16     that he could go home, that there was no need for him to go on hiding.

17     Unfortunately he did what they said, and was killed in front of the

18     house.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D1817, Your Honours.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Witness, in the neighbouring locations that are referred to

24     here, Carakovo, Kurevo Brdo, Suma, et cetera, were there any [Realtime

25     transcript read in error "my"] military units there, were there any


Page 20353

 1     dugouts and trenches or, rather, bunkers?  Yes or no or you didn't know?

 2     Just say freely whatever you want.

 3        A.   I always speak freely.  And I'm not saying what I want, I'm

 4     saying what I know.  We did not know because our movement was highly

 5     restricted, and I did not move about these mentioned villages.

 6        Q.   All right.  At that point in time you didn't know that.  Did you

 7     find out later on?  Because many of the things you are testifying about

 8     here are things that you found out later on.  Did you hear about the

 9     infrastructure and the forces in Kurevo later?

10        A.   I don't know what kind of infrastructure you're talking about.

11     But I did know, I heard later on, that from Ljubija this was organised by

12     the Taranjac brothers, or, rather, the unit that they commanded, that a

13     few times they went to carry out the so-called mopping up of Kurevo and

14     then firing could be heard from there.  Personally I was not there.  I

15     did not go deep into that forest at Kurevo Brdo.  I could not see for

16     myself whether there were any dugouts or bunkers there.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could a correction please be made

19     here on page 28, line 20.  It says "my military units."  And it is not

20     "my military units."  These are not my military units.  These are

21     military units that belong to these local communes, Croat and Muslim

22     ones.

23             Very well.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Now you say that this was restricted for you, and let's see what


Page 20354

 1     you said.  They came and they were looking for certain people; right?

 2     They wanted to see -- they were asking to see -- there was a Croat there,

 3     a Croat; right, Baja Bijekic?  Among those who had come, there was

 4     Dragan Vikic, Radola Dulavic [phoen], Baja Bjegic [phoen], who was also a

 5     Croat, and you say that the others were Serbs.  And they were looking for

 6     Jozo Buzuk, Juro Jakara, Jago Ivandic; is that right?  However, they were

 7     not there, so they were also looking for Joso Vajicic [phoen],

 8     Vinko Mila, Vlado Marasic [phoen].

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the interpreters.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   They were not at home.  These Croats who they were looking for,

12     they were not looking for just any Croats.  They were looking for the

13     Croats that you mentioned in this statement; right?

14        A.   Now you are talking about villagers who were taken to camps.

15     This was before the attack on Brisevo.

16        Q.   The 24th of June, you say that they came and they were looking

17     for certain people; right?

18        A.   That's right.  They found some of them at their homes and they

19     picked them up in the van or bus that they came in.  As for others, they

20     asked about them in front of the store in Brisevo.

21        Q.   Thank you.  However, they were not at home.  And you say that

22     your moment was restrictive; right?

23        A.   That's right.  Brisevo is 9 square kilometres.  So if movement

24     was restricted, that does not mean that everyone just had to be sitting

25     at their homes.  They could go to the store or they could go into the


Page 20355

 1     fields where people were still involved in agricultural work.

 2        Q.   You also say that some persons were told to report to the police

 3     regularly; right?  Were you told to report to the police?

 4        A.   Some were sent messages to the effect that they should come for

 5     an interview.  And whoever went never returned.  Rado Zekanovic, a

 6     policeman, asked Nedo Mlinar, a local person, about me and

 7     Emilko Vidakovic; however, I did not report to the police station in

 8     Ljubija and neither did Emilko.  Fortunately I did not report to them.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You say that on the 15th of July there was this

10     quarrel with the soldiers there, and you describe this incident involving

11     a few drunken soldiers; right?  Their car broke down and then they asked

12     for help, these Croats came, they offered them brandy, they got drunk,

13     and they quarrelled; right?

14        A.   That is not right, Mr. Karadzic.  These men who came to help,

15     because they were asked to help get the vehicle out, they were offered a

16     drink, they refused, and then they were forced to drink.  They were

17     beaten, mistreated, and Milan Ivandic was cut with a screwdriver in the

18     leg.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Further on you said -- I have to skip some of these

20     things.  So you heard about this incident as well and you did not see

21     anything.  Who told you about this incident?

22        A.   We heard about it from Milan Ivandic's brothers who were

23     participants.  Unfortunately they were all killed later, Milan and his

24     two brothers.

25        Q.   At one point you say that Milan Buzuk said that to you, and in


Page 20356

 1     another place you say that it was his brother or your brother who told

 2     you about that.  Who said that to you exactly?

 3        A.   My brother was not there at any point in time.  Milan Buzuk was

 4     also present.  Pejo Ivandic, Stipo Ivandic, Milan Ivandic.  Milan Ivandic

 5     was stabbed in the leg or foot.  Stipo and Pejo, or his brothers, they

 6     were present, and Milan Buzuk is a neighbour.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  This lake, how far away is it from you?

 8        A.   You mean from the house where I lived?

 9        Q.   Yes, in Brisevo?

10        A.   A couple of hundred metres is -- from the road that goes from

11     Brisevo to Rasavci.

12        Q.   And in June you went swimming in that lake; right?

13        A.   Now we're talking about the lake in Stara Rijeka?

14        Q.   Yes.

15        A.   Officially it belongs to Stara Rijeka.  That is further away,

16     perhaps two and a half kilometres, not only a couple of hundred metres.

17        Q.   So you could go to that lake and swim; it wasn't that your

18     movement was all that restricted?

19        A.   If you think that two or three kilometres of freedom of movement

20     is sufficient for proper living, that is your own view.  But from my

21     point of view, that is highly restrictive movement.

22        Q.   So on the 24th of July in the morning, at what time did this

23     attack start, this July attack against Brisevo?

24        A.   Around 3.30 in the morning.  That's when the first shells

25     exploded.


Page 20357

 1        Q.   Thank you.  However, in the Zupljanin case you said that it was

 2     around 4.30.  16095 is the page reference.  But that doesn't really

 3     matter.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you need to think about wrapping up

 5     your cross-examination in about five minutes.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I don't know whether it was -- Mr. Karadzic may

 9     have misspoke when the question was:  "And in June you went swimming in

10     that lake; right?"  If he wants to put that -- the month to Mr. Atlija

11     again.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation]

13             The question was whether in June and July, before ever this

14     attack on the 24th of July, they went swimming.  And his answer was that,

15     yes, they did go swimming.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Isn't that right?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I cannot wrap up

19     in five minutes.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I've already answered that you

21     could get to the lake.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

23        Q.   Thank you.  And you did go swimming.

24             JUDGE KWON:  After having spent so much time on marginally

25     important, irrelevant questions, you can't complain about shortage of


Page 20358

 1     your time.  You have five minutes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I kindly ask that

 3     you ask the Prosecution not to put marginal things into their statements.

 4     I don't know what marginal is.  I don't know what can be a basis for a

 5     conviction.  Why do they bring in such an ambitious witness who saw one

 6     single killing?  And that was something that happened when a man was

 7     allegedly told to run and he started running and we have lots and lots of

 8     information that is hearsay, twice removed.  So it's not my problem.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I would put questions instead of making submissions,

10     Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

11             By the way, you have re-examination, Ms. Sutherland?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Not at this stage, Your Honour.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Further on you say that there were Chetniks, there are lots of

15     them.  Do you call all Serbs Chetniks or were these really Chetniks that

16     you recognised by something?

17        A.   I don't call all Serbs Chetniks.  And I said that I do not accuse

18     or condemn an entire people or nation.  I do not consider them all to be

19     the same.  However, there were quite a few of them with cockades from the

20     Second World War, there were those with insignia of the White Eagles,

21     there were those with crosses with the four Serb Ss, and most of them

22     wore insignia and uniforms of the former JNA.

23        Q.   Thank you.  After that you talked to many families of victims;

24     right?

25        A.   Practically all of them.


Page 20359

 1        Q.   For what purpose?

 2        A.   Mr. Karadzic, these are people I spent my entire life with.  And

 3     it was only natural that I wanted to find out and express my condolences.

 4     Quite simply to organise ourselves for the future, how to survive, what

 5     do we do, how we get out of the area, who was still alive, who was

 6     killed, how to bury the dead, which was not easy at all, and so on.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Then you collected this information from them and you

 8     included this information in your statements; right?  And this indirect

 9     information comes from these conversations with families; right?

10        A.   I tried to point out, Mr. Karadzic, what I saw myself and what I

11     stated on the basis of what I found out from conversations with third

12     persons, family members or others.

13        Q.   Pero Dimac, you say, was told to run into the forest and then

14     they fired at him.  And that's the only killing you saw; right?

15        A.   That's the only killing I saw.  And he was not told to run into

16     the forest.  He was told in which direction he should run.  He didn't

17     manage to take two steps.  They shot him in the back of the head.

18        Q.   You were nearby and you heard what they said to him?

19        A.   I wasn't even 15 metres away from the spot.

20        Q.   Well, you were very afraid of the Serbs if you were only

21     15 metres away from them; right?

22        A.   Well, I did not have a choice.  I had no opportunity to run

23     further.  And, by the way, may I say that I do not fear anyone but God.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you made your statements to groups of

25     your 12 -- 12 of your friends and then you tried to adjust these


Page 20360

 1     statements, stream-line them?

 2        A.   We weren't streamlining anything.  After giving statements to the

 3     Croatia Information Centre, with these 12 or so survivors from Brisevo,

 4     we read this statement together once again.  Quite simply I wanted to

 5     hear their view, I wanted to be as objective as possible, because no

 6     matter how objective I tried to be when making a statement, there is

 7     bound to be some subjectivity as well.

 8        Q.   You wanted this to be a collective thing?  You wanted to be

 9     rendered equal, you wanted to inform them and they inform you; right?

10        A.   No, it's not a collective thing.  Quite simply I wanted to hear

11     their views.  Whenever one reads a statement, one can find things.  When

12     we read this transcript afterwards, we will see that there will be typing

13     errors, small errors in the actual wording, and so on.

14        Q.   Look at 2002 --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the page

16     reference.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Now, look at 1196, what your answer was.  I think this is the

19     Stakic case.  I'm going to read it out in English so that the

20     interpretation is more correct:

21             [In English] "A great deal of what you said in that statement was

22     based upon what you had been told by other people and not your own

23     personal knowledge; correct?

24             "A.  It's true that there are parts that are based on information

25     I received from other people, but in my statements here, I tried to


Page 20361

 1     separate what I personally saw and experienced and what I heard from

 2     somebody else."

 3             [Interpretation] You say that you met with this group, whether

 4     they were in Zagreb, these 12 people; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, at the time we were all in Zagreb.  And as I said, and as I

 6     said in the Stakic case, I'm trying, when giving statements and when I'm

 7     questioned, to emphasise what I heard or saw personally and what I heard

 8     from somebody else or learned from another source, and I'm doing it now.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  If you could give the page number again in the

10     Stakic case.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 119 --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Transcript page.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think Mr. Karadzic is quoting

14     from the Brdjanin case if it starts "119."

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry, it's from 2002.  It's

16     1D4470, as I have it.  And we have it under the "1D" number.  Yes, you

17     are right, it's Ackerman.  He is the Defence attorney.  I apologise, it

18     is Brdjanin.  Yes.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  What page number?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It's time for you to come to your last

21     question, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

23             JUDGE KWON:  What are you talking about, Mr. Karadzic?  Brdjanin

24     transcript?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  We also have the following


Page 20362

 1     page where there is talk about the casualties in Brisevo, where the

 2     witness said that a total of 68 persons were killed, and so on.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's included in his Stakic

 4     transcript.  But can Mr. Karadzic just give me the page number of the

 5     Brdjanin transcript that he just cited to a moment ago.  The interpreters

 6     didn't catch the transcript page.  He started to say "119" and didn't

 7     finish the page number.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have it, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 11966.  11967.  Page 40, under

10     1D4470.  In e-court it's page 40.  1D4470, if you want a 1D.  And the

11     transcript is 11966 and 11967.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no objection from you,

13     Ms. Sutherland.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, yes.  There's no point.

15     Mr. Karadzic just read to the witness what he said in the Brdjanin case.

16     The question and answer were read into the record, so I don't know why he

17     would need these two pages as an exhibit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  But I don't see any harm in admitting those two

19     pages to understand the context.

20             We'll admit it.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Very well, Your Honour.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit D1818, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, your last question.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Atlija, you said that you were present during almost all


Page 20363

 1     exhumations.  When did these exhumations take place?

 2        A.   I think that they took place in nineteen -- I think that it was

 3     the first -- the casualties who were buried in the Grosica [phoen]

 4     cemetery, between Midar [phoen] and Stara Rijeka, who were exhumed.  And

 5     then later the casualties who were buried in the places where they were

 6     killed, in fields, forests, and gardens, they were exhumed later on.  I

 7     don't know exactly, but I think it could have been in 1998.

 8        Q.   Ah-ha.  So the first one took place when?

 9        A.   I don't know the exact year.  I can't think of the exact date.

10        Q.   And you say you saw or somebody told you that traces of teeth

11     could be seen on the breasts of one of the casualties; correct?

12        A.   That is not correct, Mr. Karadzic.  That was not during

13     exhumation.  That was during the burial of the casualties when they had

14     recently been killed.  And I think this was Kaja Komljen who was lying in

15     a field undressed.

16        Q.   Witness, I will tell you now, because I believe we will need to

17     call you again, there will be reasons for that, you are an activist who

18     interviewed people, collected information, experience of other people,

19     the positions of other people, and then you presented that here in -- on

20     various occasions in the statements which you gave in Croatia and to the

21     Americans and also the statement to the OTP and on the several occasions

22     when you testified.  So what you saw was one murder and you do not know

23     whether there were any units there but you interviewed all casualties,

24     witnesses, and you prepare yourself to be a witness activist?

25        A.   No, that's not correct, Mr. Karadzic.  I'm not anyone's activist.


Page 20364

 1     I did not do any explicit interviews with anyone.  I have other concerns.

 2     I have to take care about my life and the life of my own family.  And as

 3     for the idea that you want to call me again, no problem.  Whenever you

 4     want me, I will place myself at the disposal of this Court.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't think that we have

 7     exhausted the questioning of this witness, even though I'm an amateur,

 8     for me everything that is included in a statement is dangerous for me

 9     because I don't know what the Trial Chamber will focus its attention on,

10     so I would kindly ask Mr. Robinson now to say what are the reasons to

11     re-call this witness, and that will be our next motion.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

13             Yes, Ms. Sutherland, you do not have any re-examination?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Sutherland.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, before you do excuse the

17     witness, I just have one matter that I wish to bring to the Chamber's

18     attention.  I think it can be done in the presence of the witness because

19     I also would be asking you to ask the witness a question about it.

20             You know that we filed our 60th motion for finding of disclosure

21     violation concerning disclosures that were made last week just prior to

22     the commencement of the cross-examination concerning a letter written by

23     the Prosecutor on behalf of seeing that the witness not be repatriated to

24     Bosnia from the country where he was living.  Yesterday we received

25     another four documents, and today we have filed a supplement to that


Page 20365

 1     motion which attaches the four documents for further consideration by the

 2     Trial Chamber.

 3             In addition, there's a reference to yet another document which

 4     has not yet been provided to us concerning the Prosecution's efforts on

 5     behalf of this witness, and so we have decided that in view of, number

 6     one, the lack of complete disclosure and, number two, the lack of time,

 7     that we would address that issue after the Chamber ruled, either by

 8     asking that the witness be re-called or by submitting a motion for

 9     admission of those documents through the bar table.

10             So I wanted to make the Chamber aware of those circumstances.

11     Thank you.

12             Excuse me, and the one thing I did -- I want just to ask the

13     witness, if the Chamber would agree, is whether or not the fact of the

14     identity of the country where he is currently residing is something that

15     should be kept confidential or whether he would have no objection to that

16     being made part of the public record.  We filed our annexes all under

17     seal at this time just so that the witness could have the option of

18     telling us whether that's a matter he prefers to be confidential, but we

19     would appreciate if the Chamber could find that out from the witness.

20     Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And other than that, you do not have any questions

22     to be posed to the witness in -- with respect to that matter?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, I don't think we have the

24     complete information yet that would allow us to put proper questions to

25     the witness on the issue.


Page 20366

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Atlija, can you answer the question?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If you mean the question about the

 3     country in which I reside currently, I can answer that I live in the

 4     Federal Republic of Germany.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Then that concludes the evidence of

 6     yours, Mr. Atlija.  On behalf of our Chamber and the Tribunal as a whole,

 7     I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now

 8     you are free to go.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But we'll rise all together.  We'll take a break and

11     then we are going to hear the evidence of a protected witness.  But

12     before that I take it there are some -- several administrative matters to

13     deal with in the absence of the witness.  We'll take a break for

14     25 minutes and resume at quarter past 4.00.

15                           [The witness withdrew]

16                           --- Recess taken at 3.48 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 4.20 p.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  As indicated, there are a few matters to deal with.

19             First, let us deal with the -- start with a minor issue.  It's

20     related to the motion for extension of time to respond to Rule 92 quater

21     motion.  Mr. Robinson, could you confirm whether the Defence has now been

22     provided with the 15th of September, 2011, confidential decision in the

23     Tolimir case?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we have been provided with

25     that.  Thank you.


Page 20367

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And I take it then you are going to respond 14 days

 2     as of today?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  We'd appreciate that.  I think we can get it in

 4     considerably sooner than that, but to sense a matter of principle, if we

 5     can have 14 days from the time we received it, it would be good.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  It is so ordered.

 7             And I -- there's a motion pending with respect to the protective

 8     measures for the next witness, but we'll give the -- our ruling when the

 9     witness is brought in in private session.

10             Other than that, there's a matter you wish to raise with the --

11     with respect to the witness after the next one.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I don't necessarily need to

13     raise it with you.  I just wanted to alert you that we filed a written

14     61st notice of our -- 61st motion for a finding of disclosure violation

15     with respect to that witness, so I don't believe that it's any need to

16     discuss it at this moment.  But if you could look at that, and perhaps it

17     can be responded to in the normal course, but we're asking that the

18     witness's testimony be excluded.  And that was also the relief that we

19     asked for with this last witness, and you took the motion under

20     advisement.  So if you proceed in the same manner, there may be no need

21     for you to re-rule on the motion before the witness is heard.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I am afraid the Chamber hasn't seen your motion

23     today.  Is it related to Mr. Mevludin Sejmenovic?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, it's a similar issue to that

25     with the last witness.  We received just yesterday a disclosure from the


Page 20368

 1     Prosecution that it had intervened in his residence situation by writing

 2     a letter to a government, and based on that we've asked the Chamber to

 3     make a finding that that what a violation of Rule 68 not to have

 4     disclosed it to us earlier and asked for remedies, including exclusion of

 5     the evidence of the witness and order for further disclosure.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Was that the only motion that you want -- intended

 7     to raise in relation to that witness?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that you are minded to raise an issue

11     with respect to the way in which the witness should give his evidence.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, that's also correct, and I'm sorry, I

13     completely forgot about that.  We are also asking that that witness

14     testify viva voce.  And if you like to be -- have me be heard on that

15     now, I'm prepared to.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  So you have, as the 92 ter evidence, a

18     720-page transcript of the witness's testimony in the Stakic case which

19     covers subjects from A to Z.  You told Dr. Karadzic last week that it's

20     not necessary in his cross-examination for him to rehearse with every

21     witness all of the different aspects to the conflict, and that's exactly

22     what this testimony by the Prosecution does.  And we believe that, first

23     of all, the time you allocated for cross-examination based on that scope

24     of 92 ter evidence is very inadequate.  It was four days of testimony,

25     and you've given Dr. Karadzic five hours for cross-examination.  And we


Page 20369

 1     believe that it would be more fair that the Prosecution be required to

 2     lead the witness viva voce, since it has not chosen to limit the 92 ter

 3     materials, and therefore the proportion of cross-examination that you

 4     will allow will be more in line with the topics and the scope of the

 5     witness's testimony, and that the Prosecution can then tailor its

 6     viva voce examination to those matters which are truly necessary.

 7             Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear the view on this on the Prosecution.

 9             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Yes, Mr. President.  Essentially the position taken

11     by Mr. Robinson is unfounded for a number of reasons.  It's factually

12     inaccurate.  He doesn't assert a legitimate basis for denying the

13     admissibility of this transcript under 92 ter.  And, in fact, the

14     Trial Chamber has dealt with the issue in any event.  First, the citation

15     to the number of pages is extremely misleading.  As the Court may already

16     be aware and as Mr. Robinson should be aware, the size of the transcript

17     was swelled enormously by the practice in that Chamber of reading out the

18     entirety of every document referred to.  And as it happens, the number of

19     subjects covered by this witness, who focuses on the municipality of

20     Prijedor, is no greater than, in fact, is significantly less than that

21     covered by any number, in fact quite a number of other witnesses whose

22     evidence has properly been admitted under 92 ter.

23             Secondly, the breadth, the alleged breadth of a statement is not

24     a basis for denying admissibility under 92 ter, and it presents no reason

25     for doing so.  As it happens, the Court has dealt with the alleged


Page 20370

 1     breadth of the statement by providing a large number of cross-examination

 2     hours to deal with the issues raised.  Notwithstanding the fact that

 3     there were days and days and days of cross-examination which are fully

 4     encompassed in the amalgamated statement.  This -- the amalgamated -- not

 5     the amalgamated statement, in the 92 ter statement.  This was a testimony

 6     given before a Chamber in this Tribunal in a single case.  It was

 7     appropriate in that case, and it's quite appropriate in this case.  It

 8     would be wholly contrary to the letter and spirit of 92 ter to reject the

 9     submission of the entirety of that transcript, including the extremely

10     lengthy cross-examination, without a redaction or reduction on the basis

11     of the representations made by Mr. Robinson, particularly when the Court

12     has allotted quite a number of hours for cross-examination and therefore

13     dealt with any concerns about the alleged breadth of the statement.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, you referred to the practice of that

15     Chamber.  Bearing that in mind, and also given that this witness is

16     purely, if I can say so, a crime-based witness, could you not have

17     produced a succinct statement as an amalgamated statement instead of

18     tendering those 734 pages of lengthy transcript, which we should still

19     read every page of them and summarise them?

20             MR. TIEGER:  The point, Mr. President -- the point on that is, I

21     mean, the documents that are appropriate can be and would be referred to

22     in an amalgamated statement in any event.  They would just be referred

23     to, as they typically are, by ERN number.  In this case, the length of

24     the statement is increased by the fact that you can, instead of turning

25     to the underlying document, you can see it in the transcript itself.  I


Page 20371

 1     don't think that that increases the work of the Chamber.

 2             Given the -- and given the witness's position, it would have been

 3     conceivable and maybe even extremely tempting for the Prosecution in the

 4     Stakic case and for the Prosecution producing an amalgamated statement to

 5     go into vast detail about the work of the republic assembly, the issues

 6     addressed there, the interactions between participants at that level, the

 7     objectives expressed by the Bosnian Serbs, and so on, but that is not

 8     part of the testimony in the Stakic case, which moves rather rapidly

 9     through the back-drop events - once the listing of the documents is

10     excluded - into the events, into the crime-based events.

11             So not surprisingly there are references to what was happening in

12     Prijedor prior to the attack on the Muslim civilian population, including

13     arming of Serbs and so on, but that has never been considered an improper

14     basis for the submission of a 92 ter statement.  And it simply -- it's

15     simply not the case that the testimony in the Stakic case represents some

16     lengthy foray into marginal matters.  And to suggest that the length of

17     the transcript indicates that is not accurate.  And that's what I'm

18     trying to indicate.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I tend to agree with the observation that the size

20     of the Rule 92 ter statement itself is not an obstacle for its admission,

21     but you also agree that the -- it is entirely in the discretion of the

22     Trial Chamber whether or not to admit -- or to admit the Rule 92 ter

23     statement; is it not?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I think there are discretionary matters

25     affecting that.  I don't think it can be can or should be done


Page 20372

 1     arbitrarily.  I don't think the Court means to do that.  What I'm

 2     indicating to the Court is that the Prosecution has abided fully by the

 3     letter and spirit of 92 ter in this case.  I don't believe that such a

 4     motion by Mr. Robinson would have been made if he was as familiar with

 5     the transcript as I am from parsing it out.  I think it's a reaction to

 6     the number of pages.  I think that simply means that documents which

 7     normally don't consume that -- which normally aren't contained in, but

 8     referred to instead, as in this Chamber, we don't read out the entirety

 9     of the documents, and anyone following the transcript would be expected

10     then to go to the underlying document.

11             This is -- it is not the case here that the Prosecution has

12     improperly exploited the terms of 92 ter to include material that should

13     not be by the Court and unfairly places a burden on the participants.  It

14     is the case that it simple provided the Court with a transcript that was

15     acceptable in another case and that is fully in harmony, in fact, if not

16     lesser in scope than many, many 92 ter statements or packages that have

17     previously been admitted by this Chamber.  And that's why I focused on

18     the potentially misleading aspect of the number of pages, because

19     otherwise I think it would be completely apparent that this is a 92 ter

20     submission that is wholly in keeping with the practice of this Chamber

21     and the letter and spirit of 92 ter.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, if I could just reply

23     briefly.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Let me put just one question to Mr. Tieger before I

25     give the floor to you, Mr. Robinson.


Page 20373

 1             In light of that specific practice before the previous Chamber,

 2     how long would it take if the witness is led live for your

 3     examination-in-chief?  If you can answer the question.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I don't think I'm in a position to say,

 5     Mr. President, but far -- certainly longer than -- and, I would submit,

 6     unfairly longer than is -- than clearly than would be consumed by the

 7     92 ter, the submission, and with a degree of --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But it would be shorter than five hours which we

 9     allocated for the time for the cross-examination?

10             MR. TIEGER:  Well, first of all, Mr. President, I would -- I

11     don't -- well, you're asking me to make a representation on -- based on

12     work that I have not yet undertaken.  I'm more than satisfied that the

13     five-hour allocation is completely appropriate, in fact, generous, given

14     the inclusion of the lengthy cross-examination in the 92 ter submission.

15     And I'm also fully confident that any practitioner, even one who deems

16     himself to be amateurish, could cover all the issues raised by this

17     92 ter submission in the five hours allotted, even if he chose to tread

18     over the same ground covered by the previous cross-examination.

19             THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

20             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, the one thing that I noticed

22     about this transcript in particular, apart from its length, was that it

23     wasn't limited very well to what the witness himself had experienced.

24     Unlike most of the other witnesses that we've had 92 ter statements.

25     There's a lot of discussion about politics, about the background of these


Page 20374

 1     events, and I think that distinguishes it, more so than the length, from

 2     other examinations that we had.  And if we hadn't already heard from

 3     Mr. Donia and Mr. Treanor and other witness, perhaps this would be a good

 4     witness to ventilate all of those issues with, but my point is that at

 5     this stage of the trial, to have all of those issues as part of the

 6     direct examination, I think, would be wasteful and unfair given the

 7     limitation on the cross-examination time.

 8             And finally, with respect to the cross-examination that was done

 9     on behalf of Dr. Stakic, Dr. Karadzic hasn't found that to be

10     particularly useful and particularly germane to the issues that he wishes

11     to raise, and it certainly wasn't successful, as Dr. Stakic is serving a

12     very long sentence.  So he doesn't feel that he ought to be bound or in

13     any way restricted as a result of that cross-examination that was done.

14     Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And I have to respectfully dispute the accuracy of

18     that submission, Mr. President.  There is not, to the contrary, a great

19     deal of time or focus on politics and background.  In fact, there's,

20     given the witness's position, probably less than one might expect.  And

21     nothing resembling the kind of focus -- I mean, the reference of

22     Dr. Donia is extremely misleading because there's nothing resembling that

23     kind of focus.  The witness talks principally about what he observed in

24     Prijedor and not about the general back-drop or context of the issues

25     that may or may not have given rise to the ultimate conflict.  And to the


Page 20375

 1     extent he comments on politics, it's focused on very concrete, specific

 2     events in Prijedor, and moves through them very expeditiously.

 3             But if that's Mr. Robinson's problem, if would have been far more

 4     appropriate to advise the Prosecution that it -- he -- that the Defence

 5     objects to very specific portions, to notify us what those portions were

 6     so we could make a determination specifically of whether the

 7     representation is accurate and make a determination of whether or not

 8     those could or should be properly redacted.  This wholesale submission is

 9     belated and quite inappropriate and is an attempt to make generalised

10     representations that are inaccurate, in our submission, and translate

11     them into an attack on the entire statement, without giving the

12     Prosecution an opportunity to look at, examine, and dispute, or respond

13     to, the individualized concerns.

14             We continue to stand by our position that this was a quite

15     appropriate submission.  It does not contain the broad generalised

16     political discussions that Mr. Robinson seems to be complaining about.

17     But in any event, to focus on that now without notice to us is

18     inappropriate and we should move forward with the -- with the submission.

19             If the Court ultimately determines that the number of hours

20     allocated for cross are -- turn out to be inadequate, given issues that

21     the accused properly or fairly was unable to cover, the Court can

22     respond, but that will, in my submission, not be the case.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

24                           [Trial Chamber confers]

25             JUDGE KWON:  We have heard -- we have heard the submissions of


Page 20376

 1     the parties, and we'll now issue our oral ruling on the accused's

 2     request.

 3             The Chamber notes the exceptionally voluminous amount of

 4     Rule 92 ter evidence sought for admission with this witness, i.e., 734

 5     pages of transcript and 31 associated exhibits covering seven scheduled

 6     incidents.  As a matter of fact, this led the Chamber to grant five hours

 7     of cross-examination to the accused.  In light of this submission heard

 8     today, the Chamber considers that hearing this witness live is more

 9     appropriate in terms of effective trial management.  For a purely

10     crime-based witness such as this one, there was no need to present the

11     Chamber with nine days of testimony.  This is typically a witness for

12     whom a much shorter statement could and should have been prepared by the

13     Prosecution if it is tendered pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

14             Thus, the Chamber orders that Mr. Mevludin Sejmenovic be heard

15     live, subject to the following decision in relation to the motion

16     referred to by Mr. Robinson.

17             Then shall we bring in the next witness.

18             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, there's one other issue that I

20     notified your staff that I wanted to raise and that is to move to admit a

21     public version or public redacted version of an exhibit that was

22     previously admitted under seal.  And I was wondering if this is a

23     convenient time to do that, or I can do that at some other time if you

24     don't want to hear it now.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Could it not be done in writing, Mr. Robinson?


Page 20377

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  It could be done in writing, but I also would like

 2     to read for the public record the portion that was excluded because you

 3     ordered that the broadcast be redacted at the time and so it was never

 4     actually made part of the public testimony of the witness.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  But public motion is part of public -- part of

 6     the --

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  It is, but it would be preferable, in our view, to

 8     be put in the same position as if we would have been had the document

 9     been allowed to be public at the time.  But if you feel that it's a waste

10     of time, then I will do it in writing.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Rather than it's a waste of time, but I'm minded

12     more in saving time.  So if you could file it in writing, I would

13     appreciate it.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well.  Yes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do we need to go into private session in order to

16     bring in the witness?  But we need to draw the curtain.

17                           [The witness takes the stand]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, madam.

19             Good afternoon.  Before you make the solemn declaration, there is

20     a matter I want to deal with in private session.

21             Could the Chamber move into private session.

22          [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

23             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in private session, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will now issue its oral ruling on the

25     accused's motion to modify protective measures.  Witness KDZ080, filed on


Page 20378

 1     18th of October, 2011, wherein the accused requests that the Chamber

 2     rescind the protective measures of pseudonym, image and voice distortion

 3     granted to the witness in the Brdjanin case because of public statements

 4     made by the witness since then.

 5             On 25th October, the Prosecution filed its response, attaching a

 6     declaration from the Prosecution investigator who met with the witness on

 7     21st of October.  The witness informed the investigator that for a number

 8     of reasons, including the current political situation in Bosnia and

 9     Herzegovina, she did not agree to the recision of her protective

10     measures.

11             The Chamber first notes that pursuant to Rule 75(I), it consulted

12     with the sole judge remaining at the Tribunal from the Brdjanin case who

13     opined that recision of the protective measures were not warranted in the

14     present circumstances.

15             The Chamber also recalls that under Rule 75(J) the Chamber may

16     order the recision of protective measures, absent the consent of the

17     witness, in exceptional circumstances and "on the basis of a compelling

18     showing of the exigent circumstances or where a miscarriage of justice

19     would otherwise result."

20             The Chamber has carefully examined the Prosecution investigator's

21     declaration, as well as the information contained in Appendix B to the

22     response, and considers that exceptional circumstances have not been

23     shown.  On the contrary, in light of the information provided about the

24     increased inter-ethnic tensions in Prijedor over the last few months, the

25     Chamber finds that the continuation of the protective measures of


Page 20379

 1     pseudonym, image and voice distortion a warranted.

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19                           [Open session]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry, but can you move back to private session

22     briefly.

23              [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of  Chamber]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton, we can safely call the witness

25     "madam witness" or "Ms. Witness"?


Page 20380

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Let's go back to open session.

 3                           [Open session]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

 5             Yes, madam witness, could you kindly make the solemn declaration.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 7     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 8                           WITNESS:  KDZ080

 9                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

11             Since I take it that you are well aware of the fact of the

12     protective measures, I will not repeat the explanation.  Do you agree?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:

17        Q.   Witness, can you hear me in a language you understand?

18        A.   I can.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Then could we please have 65 ter number 90289

21     called up on the screen, please.  90289.

22        Q.   Do you see a document on the computer monitor in front of you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Do you see your name on the document?

25        A.   Yes.


Page 20381

 1        Q.   Is it correctly spelled?

 2        A.   It is.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we just have that as a Prosecution exhibit,

 5     please, under seal.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3690 under seal, Your Honours.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13        Q.   And on 21 and 22 October of this year, did representatives of

14     this Tribunal read back to you a statement amalgamating or consolidating

15     parts of that testimony into one document?

16        A.   I recall that.  Yes, that's true.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  And for the record, that's 65 ter number 90288.

19        Q.   Now, as a result of hearing that statement read back to you, you

20     identified a number of paragraphs where you wanted to make some

21     corrections; is that the case?

22        A.   It is.

23        Q.   I'll read those corrections out to you now, and perhaps you could

24     tell me at the conclusion whether I've covered all the changes you wish

25     to make.


Page 20382

 1             First of all, in paragraph 8 you noted that the name

 2     "Omer Marjanovic" should instead read "Omer Kerenovic."

 3             And in that same paragraph, the name "Sead Mehmedagic" should be

 4     changed to read "Esad Mehmedagic."

 5             In paragraph 10, to your second answer, "They were taken to

 6     Omarska concentration camp and they have not been heard of until this

 7     day," you wanted to add:  "Their mortal remains were found in mass graves

 8     and later buried by their families."

 9             In paragraph 27, instead of "and held three fingers crying," that

10     should read "and held three fingers cheering."

11             The last sentence of paragraph 37 should read "they cheered"

12     instead of "they cry out."

13             The last sentence of paragraph 41 should read "war songs" instead

14     of "war cries."

15             At paragraph 46, instead of the name "Said or Sead Burazerovic,"

16     it should be "Smail Burazerovic."

17             In paragraph 61, in your first answer, you wish to delete the

18     words "and took us out to shoot us."

19             And in paragraph 79 there was a typographical correction:  The

20     word "Zazine," Z-a-z-i-n-e, should actually read "Cazin."

21             Have I covered all the important corrections you identified?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And after noting these corrections on the 22nd of October, you

24     signed that statement; correct?

25        A.   Correct.


Page 20383

 1        Q.   With those corrections, are you satisfied the statement that you

 2     signed is accurate to the best of your recollection?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And if I was to ask you the same questions that you were asked

 5     during the Kvocka and Brdjanin trials, would you give the same answers?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Could then the witness's amalgamated statement

 8     90288 be the next Prosecution exhibit, please, under seal.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P3691 under seal, Your Honours.

11             MS. EDGERTON:

12        Q.   I'll just read a brief summary of that written evidence.

13             The witness is from the town of Prijedor.  She will testify about

14     the Serb take-over of the town and the discriminatory measures against

15     non-Serbs which followed, including their forced removal by Serb forces.

16     The witness was then arrested in June 1992 and taken to Omarska camp

17     where she was held until August of that year.  She gives evidence of her

18     observations and experiences in the camp and the serious maltreatment of

19     non-Serbs detained there.

20             She speaks of numbers of prisoners being beaten, humiliated, and

21     killed, including persons she recognised.  This witness and others would

22     start their day counting the number of dead bodies which had been thrown

23     on the lawn around the "White House."  The witness describes the living

24     conditions for women detained at Omarska and how female detainees were

25     physically and sexually assaulted by camp personnel.  She talks about the


Page 20384

 1     camp personnel, outlining its structure, and gives evidence of a visit to

 2     the camp in July of 1992 by a delegation that included Radoslav Brdjanin,

 3     Stojan Zupljanin, and others.

 4             In August 1992, the witness was transferred to the camp at

 5     Trnopolje where she also describes the conditions and situation.  In

 6     order to ultimately be able to leave Serb-held Prijedor, the witness had

 7     to sign a document by which she pledged all her possessions to the

 8     autonomous region of the Krajina.

 9             And that's the summary of the written evidence, Your Honour.  And

10     having concluded that, I'd like to tender those associated exhibits not

11     already entered into evidence, 65 ter 13442 and 13650.  Those are the two

12     referred to in the statement which have not already been received as

13     exhibits by Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, those two exhibits will be admitted.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P3692 and P3693 respectively,

16     Your Honour.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I may have to address Your Honour with respect to

18     one of those, that it might be -- need to be under seal, but I'll just

19     have to take a look at the document in the next couple of minutes, if

20     that's all right.

21             JUDGE KWON:  That's fine, yes, Ms. Edgerton.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  That concludes the

23     examination-in-chief.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session briefly.

25                           [Private session]


Page 20385

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22                           [Open session]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, madam witness, your previous evidence,

24     testimony, has been admitted in the form of a written statement, as you

25     have heard.  So now you are -- you will be further examined --


Page 20386

 1     cross-examined by Mr. Karadzic.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] Are we now in public session?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Good afternoon, Mrs. Witness.

11        A.   Good afternoon.

12        Q.   Can I start with your assertion that you were turned back from

13     work on the 30th of April.  Where you work, do guards dismiss people from

14     the kind of position you occupied?  In other words, were you dismissed or

15     were you just turned back?

16        A.   I have described the event.

17        Q.   [In English] Microphone, microphone.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think the witness did not have a

20     microphone on.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What do you mean?

22                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you not hear the response of the

24     witness?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correct.


Page 20387

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand.  Probably the technician can

 2     look into the matter.

 3             THE ACCUSED:  I think it's been resolved.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I start speaking?

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Go ahead, please.

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9     Serbs took over the town.  They toppled the legally elected authorities

10     and took control of all important institutions, including the one where I

11     worked.  The first working day after that, I went to work as usual, but

12     outside the building there was a group of armed people who asked me where

13     I was going.  I said, To work.  They produced the list that they had.

14     And when I told them my name and surname, they said I was no longer

15     working there.  They did not dismiss me, they just communicated to me

16     that I was not working there any longer.

17        Q.   I will try to make my questions as precise as possible, and I

18     would appreciate it if you would give me the briefest possible answers,

19     preferably "yes" or "no."

20             As of what day were you discharged from your position?

21        A.   I never got an official document from which I could see when I

22     was terminated officially.

23        Q.   So formally you have not been dismissed to this day?

24        A.   Well, formally speaking, I did not get it on paper.

25        Q.   Do you know that everyone was told during that crisis to go back


Page 20388

 1     home for their own safety?

 2        A.   Only non-Serbs.  Only citizens of non-Serb ethnicity were turned

 3     back from work.  The Serbs continued to live and work normally.

 4        *Q.   You've said that almost all the employees of the court were

 5     Serbs.

 6        A.   No, I said the Serbs continued to work.  Until the take-over, the

 7     court was a multi-ethnic institution.  And there were, among employees,

 8     people of other ethnicities.

 9        Q.   But you said that soon after that almost all the employees of the

10     court were of Serb ethnicity.  I'm interested in this bit "almost."  Who

11     was not?

12        A.   After the take-over, persons of Serb ethnicity continued to work

13     in the institution where I had worked.

14        Q.   You said "almost all."  I would like to know what goes beyond

15     this "almost."

16        A.   I don't know.

17        Q.   Were you suspected --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have a redaction at lines 2 and 3 on

20     page 63, please.  And if we do that, it's okay to leave the question

21     immediately above in public session.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we go into private session briefly.

23            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

24             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in private session, Your Honours.

25             JUDGE KWON:  If you could expand on the reason why lines 2 and 3


Page 20389

 1     should be redacted.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  It's because of the question that was asked:

 3     "... you said ... soon after that almost all ... employees of the court

 4     were of Serb ethnicity."  And in fact, the line of questioning, I'm

 5     afraid that the answer which refers to the institution where she worked,

 6     it's clear that they're talking about the court, would disclose -- tend

 7     to disclose her identity.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  How about lines 19 and 20 on previous page?

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Actually, yes, apologies.  I had overlooked that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Then shall we redact the questions themselves?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  It would be much simpler.

12             JUDGE KWON:  So we shouldn't state in this public session that

13     witness worked in the court at all.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  No, it's something that would tend to disclose her

15     identity.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Bear that in mind, Mr. Karadzic.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  And apologies for not being more precise in my

19     initial answer to Your Honour.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we then please stay on in

21     private session briefly.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You mentioned that at this institution where you worked -- you

24     mention a few names, Nedo Ceric, Omer Marijanovic.

25        A.   Correction:  "Kerenovic."


Page 20390

 1        Q.   Keranovic?

 2        A.   Kerenovic.

 3        Q.   Ah-ha.  Sead Mehmedovic?

 4        A.   Esad.

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7             Are these names on the same list where your name is when you were

 8     suspected of meeting in secret and preparing an armed rebellion?  I'm not

 9     saying now whether that's correct or not, whether you actually did that.

10     Are these names also on that list?

11        A.   I don't understand the question.  What list?

12        Q.   Oh, you don't know.  You don't know there was this information,

13     this bit of intelligence stating that you were meeting with these people

14     and preparing an armed rebellion?

15        A.   I do not know this information.  That is ridiculous.  I met with

16     them even before the Serbs took over.  I socialised with them and I

17     worked with them.  I was not aware of this accusation because I never

18     received any charges in writing as to why I was detained in the Omarska

19     camp.

20        Q.   Then we are going to deal with all of this not exactly in

21     chronological order.

22             Were you interrogated in Omarska?

23        A.   Yes.  Just off the cuff, without giving me any sheet of paper,

24     without issuing formal charges, let alone having the right to defence.

25     Nothing was recorded as I was interrogated in the camp.  Whatever I said


Page 20391

 1     was not recorded.  On the basis of this interview with these

 2     interrogators or investigators I could assume what it was that I was

 3     actually being accused of.

 4        Q.   What were you questioned about?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, madam witness.

 6             Do we need to stay in private session?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have to now, now that

 8     we're done with the names.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Then we go back to open session.

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to put your question again,

13     Mr. Karadzic?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, certainly.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   What were you questioned about?

17        A.   Well, if it weren't tragic, it would truly be comical.  There

18     were two interrogators, Nenad Babic and Nenad Tomdzic [phoen], that were

19     putting questions to me.  For example, one of the questions was whether I

20     voted in the elections in favour of a sovereign independent

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  *The second question was whether I know

22     Mirza Mujadzic, a man who held a high position, let's put it that way, in

23     the Party of Democratic Action.  They asked me whether I met with

24     Nedo Ceric, Omer Kerenovic, and Esad Mehmedovic.  These were three

25     colleagues from work that you have mentioned just now.  Those were


Page 20392

 1     roughly the names that were put.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that this will have to be

 3     redacted as well now.  "My colleagues from work," that needs to be

 4     redacted.*

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Did they ask you where you were staying at the time?  Did they

 7     ask you about the regularity of the referendum?

 8        A.   I don't remember that they went into that kind of detail.  They

 9     probably asked me.  I don't know.  Well, if they knew where I was

10     meeting, they were probably following me.  Of course, I stayed at my

11     apartment.

12        Q.   Ah-ha, let us see what you said to the expert commission on the

13     7th of March, 1994.  That was on page 3.  Let me just see what I have

14     here.  1D04486.  On page 3, you said that they asked you about that,

15     whether you were aware of the referendum for independent

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina had been rigged.  Did they ask you that?

17        A.   Probably, yes, you've just jogged my memory, yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  In your municipality, who was in charge of declaring

19     referendums and votes, regular or irregular?

20        A.   According to the law that was then in force, it was always the

21     president of the court that was the chairman of the elections commission.

22        Q.   So it was the court, then, that had the last say; right?

23        A.   No, not the court.  The president of the elections commission.

24     It was the president of the court who was ex officio chairman of the

25     elections commission.  It was a commission.  It wasn't one man.


Page 20393

 1        Q.   And if somebody would complain, who would have the final say?

 2        A.   I don't know what the second instance was.  I really cannot

 3     remember anymore.  It's been a long time.  It was probably some central

 4     commission either in Sarajevo or somewhere else.  I really wouldn't want

 5     to go into that now.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, if it is convenient, the Chamber will

 7     take a break now for 25 minutes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at ten to 6.00.

10             When we resume, madam witness, please bear that in mind for the

11     benefit of having complete interpretation, please put a pause between the

12     question and answer.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  25 minutes.

15                           --- Recess taken at 5.26 p.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 5.53 p.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you, Excellency.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Talking about the take-over of Prijedor, you said that the

21     non-Serbs were ordered to wear a band around their sleeve; is that

22     correct?

23        A.   Correct.

24        Q.   Were the Serbs also wearing bands around their sleeves?

25        A.   I didn't notice that.


Page 20394

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 35042, please.

 2             Your Honours, is the page which we have shown with the same

 3     number acceptable, 0401279 [as interpreted], which was shown to the

 4     previous witness?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's deal with it at a later stage.  Why don't we

 6     concentrate on this witness now.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 0401-0276.  Could I now have that,

 8     please.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Now I'm going to give you an interpretation of a conversation or

11     some radio communication, and all of this was intercepted by the Croatian

12     secret service, they were listening in to all of that.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  We've not been notified on this document,

15     Your Honour.  So actually at this point an interpretation of a

16     communication is something I'd object to.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, this is a document that the

18     Prosecution put into the system.  But these people in Croatia were not

19     carrying this verbatim.  This is the essence, and I can read it out to

20     you, although you can read it yourself.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   So on the 30th of May, 1992 --

23             JUDGE KWON:  There's an objection from the Prosecution, then you

24     should wait for the ruling.

25             There was no notice in relation to the previous witness either,


Page 20395

 1     Ms. Edgerton.  Are you in the position to answer that question?  I

 2     checked the notice.  I didn't see that 65 ter number.  Mr. Robinson can

 3     help us, probably.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, Mr. President, I can't, because I'm not

 5     involved in that aspect of it.  Perhaps I can check for a minute with

 6     Dr. Karadzic and our Case Manager.  Excuse me.

 7                           [Defence counsel confer]

 8             I'm informed that there was no notice of either of those two

 9     documents.

10             JUDGE KWON:  If you could tell us the reason why you were not

11     able to notify of this document and then why it is necessary and relevant

12     to use this one with respect to this witness, Mr. Karadzic?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, we are dead tired.

14     There isn't enough of us.  And I noticed that at the very last moment

15     some kind of racial stigma is suggested.  It doesn't have to be admitted,

16     but I just wanted to put this to the witness to show what all of this was

17     like.

18             JUDGE KWON:  But you said you wanted to tender the part you

19     showed to the previous witness.  So it is not your intention to tender

20     this into evidence with respect to this witness?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, yes, but if it cannot be

22     admitted, it doesn't matter.  Then I'd just like to show it to the

23     witness.  That it's not a question of racism, that it's a practical

24     thing, to mark friends as opposed to foes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.


Page 20396

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber does not see sufficient reason to allow

 3     you to put this document to the witness.  Move on.  Please move on to

 4     another topic, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I think that's fair,

 7     and we're not complaining about that, but I just think it's also an

 8     opportune time for me to advise you that we're going to have problems

 9     like this in the future.  Even as of today we lost one team member

10     because of the reduction in our funding from an issue which has been

11     pending before the president and is not yet resolved.  So we have

12     17 per cent less people to do the job right now that -- and particularly

13     the Case Manager job, which includes translations and uploading exhibits.

14             In addition, we have 150 hours for each employee, and all of us

15     regularly work between 225 and 250 hours per month.  So the tasks that

16     are required of us by the Chamber, including giving notice of potential

17     exhibits and submitting documents in advance for translation, are very

18     difficult for us to accomplish.  We'll do our best, but that's the

19     situation.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I appreciate your evaluation that our decision was

21     fair and you're not complaining about it.  Let's proceed.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So you said that there was a take-over of power in the

25     municipality of Prijedor.  Do you know that what was almost agreed upon


Page 20397

 1     before that was to have two municipalities established, a Serb

 2     municipality and a Muslim municipality?

 3        A.   I don't know.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that Mr. Cehajic went to the left bank of

 5     the Sava river and tried to establish a municipality and the police in

 6     Ljubija was supposed to be the Muslim MUP?

 7        A.   This is the first I hear of that.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what the main reason was for the

 9     take-over on the 30th of April?

10        A.   I don't.

11        Q.   All right.  Have you heard of the 12th of April and then the

12     17th or 18th of April, but the most important one was the 29th of April,

13     rather, that a telegram arrived on that date from the Ministry of Defence

14     and the Ministry of the Interior to start attack against the Serbs and

15     the JNA?

16        A.   This is the first I hear of that.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Then did you hear the Serb side stating what they

18     think they should do and what others should do?

19        A.   The local radio was under the control of the Serb government, and

20     the releases were terrible.  They were horrifying as far as non-Serbs are

21     concerned.  One of them said that the inhabitants of Prijedor who are

22     non-Serbs should put white flags on the windows and terraces of their

23     homes.

24        Q.   We'll get to that, thank you.  This is already May, right?  The

25     30th of May up until the 9th of June.  Now, I'm asking you when the Serb


Page 20398

 1     side took over in Prijedor, do you remember, do you know?  Did they

 2     encourage the Muslim and Croat side to establish their own government in

 3     their own parts of town?

 4        A.   No, I've never heard of this.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  At one point you say on the 30th of May Prijedor was

 6     attacked.  Who was it that attacked Prijedor on the 30th of May?

 7        A.   I heard this.  I heard that one group of people that could not

 8     reconcile themselves to Prijedor becoming a Serb town and to having Serb

 9     iconography all over the place, I'm referring to flags and everything

10     else, allegedly they tried to take Prijedor back to the situation that

11     prevailed before the take-over.  I heard about that incursion by this

12     group of people, as you said.

13        Q.   Oh, so it's a group, not a unit?

14        A.   No, a very small group.  Too small to oppose the armed Serb

15     paramilitaries and army in Prijedor.

16        Q.   How many Serbs were killed then?

17        A.   I don't know, believe me.  You could not believe that radio, that

18     Serb radio, that broadcast information as suited the newly established

19     Serb authorities.  Quite simply, the climate that was being created was

20     that all non-Serbs were a threat to the new Serb authorities.

21        Q.   I'm afraid, madam witness, that it was the Serb people who were

22     under threat and it wasn't the Serb authority that was issuing threats.

23     And the Serbs took over because an attack was being prepared.  Let us see

24     what you say in point 13.  I think this is from the amalgamated

25     statement.


Page 20399

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             [Interpretation] What happened first, madam, the attack or the

 7     arrests?

 8        A.   Even before the attack, people who were taken away for

 9     questioning.  Very often I experienced my apartment being searched, my

10     identity papers checked, and so on.

11        Q.   Can you please tell us whether you know that Prijedor was

12     attacked from four or five directions?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that the groups, as you call them,

15     reached the centre and that they almost took over the building of the

16     radio, the MUP, and other institutions?

17        A.   No, it's impossible that such a small group could take hold of

18     all important places and institutions in the town.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You know, when you talked about that in previous

20     trials, that you were marked as an extremist; is that correct?

21        A.   Probably.

22        *Q.   Did you read that in the "Kozarski Vjesnik," and did you comment

23     on that in previous trials?

24        A.   Yes, yes, I read it.  However, I only read it once I had managed

25     to leave Prijedor.  The article that talked about me as an extremist was


Page 20400

 1     something I read in the free territory.*

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Would you agree with me that there were almost 50.000

 3     Muslims in Prijedor?

 4        A.   I do not know the exact figures.  I really don't.  How many

 5     Muslims there were.

 6        Q.   If one-fourth of them were underaged, that leaves 40.000 people,

 7     and 20.000 of them would be women.  Why were you the one who was singled

 8     out as an extremist among them?

 9        A.   Well, I wonder, myself.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You said that it was an army with various kinds of

11     uniforms and insignia, that they were multicoloured army.  What can you

12     say about that?  Would you call all Serbs Chetniks or did you really

13     notice somebody who deserved to be labelled "Chetnik"?

14        A.   I do not call all Serbs Chetniks.  I said that among the multiple

15     colours of the uniforms there were uniforms with the Chetnik insignia.

16   (redacted)

17     talked about the bands, and you said that for the non-Serb population it

18     was very difficult, and you said if you wanted to go out to buy something

19     you needed to put a white band on your arm, and on the windows of houses

20     people needed to hang white flags or just white linen.

21             Do you know that it was broadcast on Radio Prijedor that those

22     who would not be fighting and in houses that no one would shoot from they

23     should mark their houses with white linen?

24        A.   It wasn't like that.

25        Q.   Do you know that that was the broadcast or not?


Page 20401

 1        A.   I don't know that it was formulated like that, with shooting, no.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Why some Muslims were not suspect at all and some

 3     were?

 4        A.   I don't know who made this assessment.

 5        Q.   Can you tell us whether it was correct that there was a certain

 6     number of the Muslims and the Croats who went along well with the Serbs

 7     and that the others called them traitors?

 8        A.   Very few.  And who dared speak about traitors in the first place

 9     at the time?

10        Q.   Maybe they did that later.  But would you agree with me that

11     there were many Muslims and Croats who agreed with the Serbian side about

12     the future of Bosnia and Prijedor?

13        A.   I don't know.  It's possible, but I wouldn't know.

14        *Q.   Thank you.  All right.  Now, please tell us this:  The 30th had

15     passed and by the 9th of June -- it was only on the 9th of June when you

16     learned from relatives that the MUP was interested in you and not in him?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And so you reported, and where exactly were you arrested?

19        A.   It wasn't a typical arrest.  It was precisely my relative who was

20     taken to a concentration camp in Omarska on the previous day, that is to

21     say, on the 8th of June, 1992.  When he returned, he called me and said

22     that the then-camp warden and his deputy Zeljko Meakic and

23     Miroslav Kvocka had told him that it was inconvenient, as I had known one

24     of them well, to try and get me arrested in the suburb where I lived, but

25     that I should report to the police station for questioning and that I


Page 20402

 1     should report to Ranko Mijic, which I did on the following day.  I went

 2     to the police station in Prijedor.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  So he told you that he had been arrested by mistake

 4     and that they were looking for you and not for him; right?

 5        A.   He told me that they were looking for me.  Whether it had been a

 6     mistake or not, later on it would turn out that for the newly established

 7     Serbian authorities I was, conditionally speaking, more important, and

 8     that probably I figured before him in the list for arrests.*

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we go into private session, please,

17     Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19            [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25             JUDGE KWON:  That's why I asked you to identify the areas.  But


Page 20403

 1     why should this be discussed in private session?  Does it reveal her

 2     identity?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Let me consult with my colleague on that,

 4     Your Honour, and be guided by her.

 5                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  The story of the arrest of her relative on a

 7     particular day and the -- his release and advising that she was the one

 8     to be arrested, Your Honour, the very fact of that story does go to

 9     identify them because it's a unique experience in Prijedor.  And, in

10     fact, the brother and sister are easily identified.  The difference in

11     their names is only one letter of the alphabet.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, point taken.  And then that part

13     will be --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry, I cannot hear you well.

15     I hardly can hear you at all.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We also have trouble

17     hearing the witness.

18             THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20             Madam witness, did you hear what Ms. Edgerton said?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, unfortunately it was very low,

22     so I couldn't hear well.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Given the unique situation in which the brother and

24     sister were arrested and those lines of question could be revealing your

25     identity, that's what she said, in a crux.  So we will discuss it in


Page 20404

 1     private session.

 2             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  And while we're still in

 4     private session, my colleagues had time to check the article that

 5     Dr. Karadzic is referring to in "Kozarski Vjesnik" and found that this

 6     witness is the only woman named among the list of people who were

 7     identified as extremists and therefore that also would go to reveal her

 8     identity.  And that, Your Honour, is at page 73, line 25, to 74, line 3.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are still in private

11     session, may I specify this.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Madam witness, is your brother Nusret Sivac, whereas your name is

14     Nusreta, and the different is only in one name?

15        A.   You mean one letter.

16        Q.   One letter, yes.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Is that your brother?  Were we talking about him?

19        A.   Yes, yes.

20             THE ACCUSED:  Let me remind the Chamber that he testified here as

21     KDZ414.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  No, he didn't have any protective measures.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's possible.  I apologise.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   All right.  So you came to the police station, but you didn't


Page 20405

 1     enter the building; correct?

 2        A.   That's right.  I didn't enter the building.  I was standing in

 3     front of the entrance to the police station.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And then you were taken to Omarska; correct?

 5        A.   I was taken to the Omarska camp, correct.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Just for a short while let us remain in private

 7     session.

 8             Considering your job, you knew how big was the detention unit in

 9     the police station?

10        A.   I was never there.  I didn't see how big it was.

11        Q.   But you could order how many people to be detained.  Could you

12     order more than ten people?

13        A.   I never ordered that.  I had other duties.

14        Q.   But would you agree with me that it couldn't have been big?

15        A.   Well, I don't know.  I really don't know how big it was.

16        Q.   Namely, you call Omarska a camp.  And were there investigation

17     teams who worked -- which worked there daily up until 5.00 p.m.?

18        A.   Investigators came to Omarska every day and they worked from

19     morning till evening.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that your relative was arrested a little

21     bit after you, maybe a week or so after you, and he was arrested on the

22     basis of the evidence of a man who involved him in his own activity?

23        A.   I don't know why he was arrested.

24        Q.   According to your knowledge, how many people were staying in

25     Prijedor?


Page 20406

 1        A.   In Prijedor?

 2        Q.   In Omarska, people from Prijedor.

 3        A.   Do you mean the whole municipality?  Once again I don't hear

 4     anything.

 5        Q.   How many people were detained and questioned in Omarska?

 6        A.   I wouldn't know how many were questioned, but there were

 7     thousands of people.  Thousands upon thousands, really.  But to talk

 8     about figures, one has to be very cautious when approaching that.

 9     Thousands of people were imprisoned, of all ages, of all professions, all

10     walks of life, including 37 women.  There were also underaged persons who

11     were imprisoned at the Omarska camp.

12        Q.   Do you know that the authorities in Prijedor used Omarska as an

13     investigation centre because the detention unit at the public security

14     station is too small?

15        A.   No, no, I wouldn't agree with that.  That was camp, not any sort

16     of investigation centre.  But what is the problem?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

18             MS. EDGERTON:  I thought we were still in private session,

19     Your Honour, and I think a large --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you, I was about to raise it, whether

21     there's still need to remain in private session.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Go back -- let's go back to open session.

24                           [Open session]

25             THE REGISTRAR:  We are now in open session, Your Honours.


Page 20407

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   So my question is this:  Do you know that the Prijedor

 3     authorities Keraterm, and once it became too small, then Omarska as well,

 4     were considered by these authorities as investigation centres which were

 5     used for investigations before it would be decided what to do with the

 6     detainees?

 7        A.   Mr. Karadzic, in investigation centres people are not tortured,

 8     maltreated, and murdered.  Investigation centres are something completely

 9     different.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have a look at P2772.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Leaving that investigation centre for Trnopolje was on the

14     3rd of August; correct?

15        A.   Yes.  Departure from the concentration camp Omarska to another

16     concentration camp called Trnopolje took place exactly on that day.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please have a look at this document, which

18     says that 1446 persons were processed, for which valid documentation

19     exists and where there are elements of criminal liability, and that

20     others were transferred to a camp in Trnopolje where there are Muslims

21     who found shelter there, fleeing from the combat operation in the

22     territory of the municipality.  The camp is secured by members of the

23     Army of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Would you agree with

24     this official report?

25        A.   I absolutely do not agree.  Nothing is true there.


Page 20408

 1        Q.   If I tell you that 59 per cent of those who had been detained and

 2     questioned were released and 41 per cent were sent to Manjaca and that

 3     those who were sent to Manjaca is the number which makes up 41 per cent,

 4     what would you say?

 5        A.   I do not agree with that.  I would not go into this analytical

 6     assessment of the percentages.

 7             Oh, what is it now?  I don't hear anything.  We have a technical

 8     problem.  The microphone, it's a problem.  It just stops at a certain

 9     second it stops, I have no signal, and then again, once again, I have no

10     signal.  I absolutely do not hear my own voice.

11        Q.   If I may say, you do not have to hear your own voice.  It's

12     better, because it might make you tired, if I can help you.

13        A.   Thank you for your professional help.

14        Q.   It's important that you hear the interpretation.

15        A.   I don't hear interpretation.  I absolutely do not hear

16     interpretation.

17        Q.   Do you hear my voice through the head phones?

18        A.   I hear your voice but again it's stopped.  I can't hear you, I

19     can't hear the interpretation.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll pause, but --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can hear the Judge, yes, I can

22     hear the Judge and the interpreter clearly.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think we are missing any part of your

24     statement so that's -- that may be related to the protective measure of

25     distortion of your voice.  So as long as you have no problem in hearing


Page 20409

 1     us and hearing Mr. Karadzic's question, we can proceed.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you very much.

 4             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Have you answered my question?

 7        A.   Well, I would like to read it, but I'm not sure if I need to.

 8     You haven't asked me.  I do not agree with this.  I said that clearly.  I

 9     don't agree with your percentages, how many people were questioned, how

10     many were transferred, where.  I cannot answer that.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you deny that 1446 persons were sent to Manjaca?

12        A.   I don't know.  I know that some people went to Manjaca, but I

13     don't know the exact number.  It would be ridiculous if I would try to

14     juggle figures here with you.  It would really be something not serious

15     if I were to mention any figures.  Some prisoners were sent to Manjaca.

16     This is what I know.  And some were sent to the camp in Trnopolje.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Madam, we have information about the numbers which

18     arrived to Manjaca so that the number is indisputable.

19             Can you tell us what was the specific difference, why were you

20     taken in and not somebody else?  What was the "differentia

21     specifika [phoen]" for some people to be transferred to Trnopolje and

22     others to be transferred to Manjaca?

23        A.   I did not determine that.  How can I know what the people who

24     decided about the fate of camp inmates used as a criterion?  It was

25     destiny that wanted me to survive.  *I was the only one who survived from


Page 20410

 1     the category of people who were detained at the Omarska camp.  Of my

 2     colleagues from work who were detained in Omarska, I'm the only survivor

 3     from Omarska.*

 4        Q.   Thank you.  We'll come to that if we have time.  I'm a little

 5     confused by some of these things; once you were outside a SUP building,

 6     another time you were outside the court before you were taken away.

 7        A.   I passed by the court to get to the SUP, to the public security

 8     station, because the two buildings are close by.  And to get to the SUP

 9     building, I had to pass by the court building.  And I was picked up from

10     outside the public security station before I was taken away.

11        Q.   In your statements you referred to the legality of institutions

12     of Republika Srpska and Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Do you believe that the

13     referendum on the independence of Bosnia-Herzegovina was legal, lawful,

14     and that it succeeded in a legal way?

15        A.   I believe it was legal.  It was conducted legally and most of the

16     electorate, the majority of the electorate in Bosnia-Herzegovina voted

17     for living in an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18        Q.   What kind of majority was required?

19        A.   If I remember well, because it was a long time ago, 64 per cent

20     of the electorate voted for living in a sovereign independent

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let's of move on to other topics.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Let me just say that even if that were true, it would be

25     insufficient.  Only 64 per cent turned out, and 62, 63 per cent voted.


Page 20411

 1     So it was a forcible carving of Bosnia-Herzegovina, forcible possession?

 2        A.   I don't agree with you on that either.

 3        Q.   You said - and I'll tell you where - in your statement from 1995,

 4     and I'll give you the number in a second.  1D04484.  Page 11.  You said

 5     that at the time court marshals were in place.

 6        A.   You know what I meant.  You find yourself in the camp without any

 7     charges brought against you.  And whatever you're asked by the

 8     interrogators, you have to confirm, you have to agree to.  Always under

 9     duress and usually with the application of torture and physical abuse.

10             Now, who ordered these executions and this treatment, I don't

11     know.  But obviously people had to do it.  But when you don't know what

12     you're accused of, what you're tried for, let alone having a chance to

13     defend yourself, and you'd have no idea what they wrote in the minutes

14     because you never get to see it.  Whatever -- what are you going to call

15     it except court marshal?

16        Q.   Have you ever been before the court?

17        A.   I don't know.  The courts were functioning at the time.  Why

18     didn't they bring us detainees before the court and try us under law like

19     trials go on in this courtroom here.

20        Q.   Do you agree that there is a preliminary proceeding like here, a

21     preliminary proceeding before the trial, and sometimes the trial doesn't

22     even happen?

23        A.   Of course not, everywhere, and even in the former

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina, you know what the pre-indictment proceedings are

25     like.  You have a criminal report, you get to see it, you know what you


Page 20412

 1     are being suspected of, you have a right to a defence, you are remanded

 2     in custody, you have the right to appeal.  All that ceased to exist in

 3     Omarska camp.  That just did not exist.

 4        Q.   Let's be precise.  Do you know how prisoners of war are normally

 5     treated?  Do you have to show them the formal decision to investigate, or

 6     do you just capture them and then decide who's a criminal and who's a

 7     prisoner of war?

 8        A.   There are conventions and rules even concerning prisoners of war

 9     that govern the treatment of POWs.  You don't torture them.

10        Q.   We are now looking at the legal side of things.  You were not

11     tried for anything or convicted.  You were interrogated and released.

12        A.   I was kept in the concentration camp of Omarska for about two

13     months and then I was taken to another camp, Trnopolje.  It's not a

14     remand prison.  It's a camp.  And I told in previous trials how I lived

15     there, what I lived through, how I was treated.

16        Q.   Leave that alone.  We're looking at the legal side of things.

17        A.   It has nothing to do with anything legal.  It's a camp,

18     Mr. Karadzic.  Understand that.  It's a concentration camp.  All the

19     rules are forgotten there.  The domestic legislation, international

20     legislation, all that was forgotten.

21        Q.   Were you charged, brought before the court, and is it the case

22     that the longest prison -- longest remand period is six months in our

23     country?

24        A.   That has nothing to do with anything.  What kind of remand are

25     you talking about?  Can you understand that I had no idea why I was


Page 20413

 1     detained, I never saw anything in writing.  Just watched the torture

 2     there.  I watched people disappearing.  The abuse, the torture.  And I

 3     was just waiting when they would come --

 4        Q.   Let's stick to my question.  I'm asking you:  Is the maximum

 5     remand in our country six months?

 6        A.   It was then.

 7        Q.   You stayed a bit longer than a month in Omarska and five days in

 8     Trnopolje; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Do you know that in books written by people you know Trnopolje is

11     called salvation?

12        A.   No, it was no salvation to me.  I'm speaking from my point of

13     view and from my experience.

14        Q.   It's written in a book that you he must know well.

15        A.   Everybody has the write to write what they feel, the way they

16     feel.  I thought at the time, and I hoped, actually, that perhaps that

17     could be the path to freedom.  However, once I arrived there I was afraid

18     over there as well.

19        Q.   Madam, but you stayed there for five days and then you left;

20     right?

21        A.   That's right.

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 20414

 1     where?

 2        A.   As far as I can remember, I corrected that statement.  It wasn't

 3     on the forehead of this person but on the cheek of that person

 4     (redacted)  A man walked in there who was not part of the prison

 5     staff.  When I said "staff," he wasn't a guard.  He wasn't the chief.  He

 6     wasn't among the camp structures, as it were.  On that day, a man arrived

 7     who wore a uniform and a cap with a cockade and he took a knife out of

 8     his boot.  He walked up to (redacted) who was sitting in the

 9     corner of the restaurant, and he carved a cross in her cheek with that

10     knife.  I have already stated this and I remember that scene very well.

11        Q.   Thank you.  In this case --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  This is actually one of the things that we did

14     discuss earlier, Your Honour.  If we could go into private session,

15     quickly, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)


Page 20415

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   So this is one statement.  A cross on the forehead.  *And another

15     statement says -- this is commission of experts, the interviews from

16     1994.  On page 8 you said that it was on the face.  However, in

17     "Oslobodjenje," "Oslobodjenje" of the 6th of August, 1997, on page 8, you

18     said that it was on the breast.

19        A.   No, no.  No way.  No way, not on the breast.  That is some

20     mistake.  On the cheek.  On the face.

21        Q.   Did you correct that in "Oslobodjenje"?

22        A.   I don't know.  I didn't read that article in "Oslobodjenje."

23     Really, I don't know how that could have been written that way.  I

24     haven't read it.  This is the first time I hear that that is what was

25     written there, believe me.  On the face.  Quite clearly.  I am stating


Page 20416

 1     that very clearly.  On the face, on the cheek.

 2        Q.   A moment ago, you said that you remember that very clearly, and

 3     now we see that there are three variants.

 4        A.   Well, the cheek is part of the face, isn't it?  So there's just

 5     one variant.

 6        Q.   I don't have time to deal with these discrepancies any longer.

 7     But, all right, just a moment, please.

 8             When you spoke about the killing of Mehmedalija Sarajlic --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   -- you said that you only recognised his body among the others;

11     is that right?

12        A.   Yes, yes.  He had a light coloured suit that he wore all the time

13     in the camp until he was liquidated.

14        Q.   However, in your statement given to the commission of experts,

15     you said that you had heard that he had been killed but that you had not

16     seen his body.

17        A.   I just agree with what I said here before the Court and what is

18     stated in the transcripts from my previous testimonies.

19        Q.   This statement that you gave to the commission of American

20     experts, are you withdrawing it altogether?

21        A.   I don't know.  I haven't read it, so I cannot say anything,

22     whether there are any mistakes there or not.

23        Q.   You talk about calls during the night and so on.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   About things that you heard of.  However, you did not see these


Page 20417

 1     things; right?

 2        A.   Which things?  I don't understand.  Would you please repeat your

 3     question.

 4        Q.   Well, Zeljko Meakic, called Jadranka, not to mention her last

 5     name, and:

 6             [In English] "... all out which eventually became a nightly

 7     occurrence."

 8             [Interpretation] You say:

 9             [In English] "During this period" -- [no interpretation] "...

10     didn't see or hear anything to make her believe that anyone was punished

11     for any of those things to prisoner in camp."

12             [Interpretation] And you say that there were persons who had been

13     killed.  Which killing did you see actually?

14        A.   I saw many killings.  I saw many persons being killed, very many.

15     Also tortures.

16        Q.   Leave tortures aside now.  Which killings?

17        A.   I cannot remember the first and last names of the persons who

18     were killed, but my day in Omarska started with a counting of these dead

19     people who were thrown out in front of the "White House" on the lawn in

20     front of the "White House."

21        Q.   Who can confirm that, madam?

22        A.   Confirm what?

23        Q.   What you're saying now.

24        A.   The skeletons from mass graves can confirm that.  Do you

25     understand that?  Many mass graves were found in which camp inmates from


Page 20418

 1     Omarska were found and identified, so this is confirmed by the skeletons,

 2     the skeletons of these persons that were found in mass graves.  And

 3     unfortunately many people have not been found yet, although it's been a

 4     long time since.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Could you describe to us every killing that you saw

 6     and what happened?

 7        A.   Well, for the most part --

 8        Q.   No, no, no.  You say, on such and such a date, such and such a

 9     thing happened.  Tell us all of that like a real witness.

10        A.   Oh, like a real one, right?  Let me tell you, sometimes a bullet

11     was a gift, a reward, in Omarska.  Before killing people, they beat them

12     horribly with various objects.

13        Q.   Lady, I really have no time.  I would like to listen to all you

14     have.  And if you had really lived through all you claim you've lived, I

15     would feel great sympathy.  But just tell me, describe a murder that you

16     saw with your own eyes.  It happened this and this, this person was ...

17     and then you give us name and surname, and so and so shot him.

18        A.   In Omarska people mostly succumbed to the injuries of the awful

19     torture and beatings with iron and wooden objects of all sorts.  People

20     were mostly killed by rifle or pistol bullets, but people died for the

21     most part because they couldn't stand this torture.  It was not as easy

22     as just taking a gun and killing someone.  Before that the person was

23     tortured and abused in all sorts of ways, and succumbs.

24        Q.   So you didn't see a single murder?

25        A.   I've seen many.


Page 20419

 1        Q.   Describe one.

 2        A.   They torture a man, they beat him.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  If I may, Your Honour, I'm sorry, but I didn't

 4     want to go any further.  I'd like to please go into private session and

 5     ask for another redaction.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could the Chamber move into private is

 7     session.

 8             [Private session] [Confidentiality lifted by order of  Chamber]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in private session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  It's at page 89.  What appears in my LiveNote as

12     lines 11 down through to, I think, page 90 line 3.  It takes -- there

13     Dr. Karadzic specifically referred to a specific article on a specific

14     date in a specific newspaper and told the witness the specific page

15     exactly what she said.  That would clearly go to identify her.  But it

16     was difficult to find that article without any 65 ter number being quoted

17     or Defence-released document, so I apologise for the time it took me.  So

18     I'd like that redacted, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Specifically what lines?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  It's a bit confusing in the LiveNote, but it

21     reads -- my page 89 at LiveNote stops at line 12, so it's the question

22     that begins at page 89, line 11.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Did you -- starting with "Did you correct that in" -

24     certain number of the magazine - "Oslobodjenje?"  If you could read out

25     the passage.


Page 20420

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  The passage that I think goes to identify this

 2     witness is:  "And another statement says, this is commission of experts,

 3     the" -- I'm sorry, "the interviews from 1994 and page 8 you said it was

 4     on your [sic] face."  Sorry, I've just found it.  Thank you.  "However,

 5     in "Oslobodjenje" ... on the 6th of August, 1997, on page 8, you said ...

 6     it was on the breast."

 7             So both of those things, Your Honour, please.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  And then further down it -- the witness -- the

 9     accused asked "Did you correct that in "Oslobodjenje?"  And then witness

10     answered, referring to that article.  Is it okay?  Unless it refers to

11     the specific issue of that magazine, or ...

12             MS. EDGERTON:  I think with the initial redaction, that second

13     passage is actually okay, Your Honour.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.  We go back to open session.

15                           [Open session]

16             THE REGISTRAR:  We are back in open session.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, may I know if I

18     get any more time tomorrow and how much?  There is a large topic that

19     still have to go through and I've barely touched upon several other

20     subjects, especially where personalities and specific incidents are

21     concerned.  I need, if not a whole session, then at least an hour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I think so, but I will let you know in a couple of

23     minutes.  In the meantime, please continue.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]


Page 20421

 1        Q.   It's -- this is certainly safe to say.  Was your position and

 2     your institution of municipal nature?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   So if a Muslim municipality had been formed, the same institution

 5     would have existed in it?

 6        A.   How could I know that?

 7        Q.   Well, in Sarajevo, which has ten municipalities, does every

 8     municipality have that same kind of institution?

 9        A.   But they're not Muslim institutions.

10        Q.   I'm saying that when a municipality exists, it has that

11     institution.

12        A.   It does.

13        Q.   Do you know that it had been offered to the Muslims and Croats

14     working in state administration to pledge an oath to the Serb authorities

15     or to move to a Muslim municipality?

16        A.   Where?

17        Q.   In Prijedor, Muslims and Croats received an offer to make an oath

18     that they will enforce the laws of the -- of Republika Srpska, and some

19     did, whereas others were waiting for a Muslim municipality to be formed.

20     Do you know that there was this oath of loyalty, a solemn declaration?

21        A.   I don't know anything about that, but one woman inmate told us

22     that she had signed some sort of document on loyalty.  She was working in

23     that -- in a centre in Sarajevo, and she was still brought to the camp.

24     Another woman didn't sign and was brought to the camp too.  So I don't

25     know if it had anything to do with it, this signing of loyalty.


Page 20422

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we will adjourn for today here, and

 2     you'll have 25 minutes tomorrow to conclude your cross-examination.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume tomorrow at quarter past 2.00.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, sorry.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I can just raise something in relation to the

 8     supplemental motion that was filed in the break.  We would ask that the

 9     appendixes still remain confidential because the address of the witness

10     is in there and also security concerns on matters which are normally

11     dealt with in confidential filings.

12             JUDGE KWON:  And with respect --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And also for the 61st motion as well, if those

14     appendices could also be put under seal.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, Mr. President, we would be happy to

16     redact any address.  But in terms of the other information, we don't

17     think it should be under seal.

18             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a look into.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But, sorry, Your Honour, at the moment they're a

20     public document, until you rule otherwise.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  I meant that we'll put it under seal provisionally

23     and we'll take a look, further look.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And with respect to Mr. Robinson's request to lift


Page 20423

 1     the confidentiality of the Chamber's ruling, with respect to this

 2     witness, we agree that this can be -- the confidentiality of the ruling

 3     can be lifted.  But except for the last passage which relates to the

 4     warning to the witness, so, i.e., the -- from my transcript page -- on

 5     page -- line 21 of page 52 to 24 -- and line 24, transcript page 53, can

 6     be public.

 7             Very well.  I always forget to mention the audio/video part as

 8     well.  The hearing is now adjourned.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 7.01 p.m.,

11                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 27th day of

12                           October, 2011, at 2.15 p.m.

13

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25



* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013. 

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013. 

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013. 

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013. 

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013. 

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013.

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013.

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013.

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013.

* The bold and italicised text was previously confidential pursuant to a redaction order of the Chamber. The status of this redaction order has been changed from confidential to public per Chamber's decision of 3 July 2013.