111028ED

Page 20519

1 I'm fine. Thank you, Your Honours.

2 JUDGE KWON: Today you will be asked by Mr. Radovan Karadzic in

3 his cross-examination.

4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Good

6 afternoon, Your Honours. Good afternoon, everyone.

7 WITNESS: MEVLUDIN SEJMENOVIC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Sejmenovic.

11 A. Good afternoon.

12 Q. We have three hours at our disposal, though I was hoping that we

13 would continue on Monday. In order for us not to request that, I will

14 ask you whenever possible, and of course I will try to achieve that by

15 asking you simple questions, to answer whenever possible with yes or no

16 with exceptions, of course.

17 I wish to ask you the following. You are a founding member and a

18 member of the Municipal Board of SDA. Were you ever a member of the

19 Main Board of the SDA?

20 A. I was not a member of the Main Board of the SDA at the time.

21 Q. And did you attend the founding session of the SDA in Sarajevo?

22 A. No, I did not attend that if you mean the foundation meeting

23 which was held at the Holiday Inn hotel.

24 Q. Yes, thank you, on the 26th of May. But you were a deputy and

25 you said yesterday that you came every time; is that correct?

Page 20520

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. That is to say you were familiar with all the

3 political developments among the top leaders in Bosnia-Herzegovina

4 including the negotiations between the three leaders and so on; correct?

5 A. Judging by my position, we could not say that I was familiar with

6 all the political developments and the details of negotiations. From the

7 position that I held, I could know a certain number of details and some

8 relations, both in terms of other parties, relations with other parties,

9 and negotiations.

10 Q. Thank you. That is quite all right. It is important for me to

11 determine what you were familiar with and what you were not. I have

12 nothing negative or positive to say about that. It's just a matter of

13 determining.

14 I wish to ask you the following: Did you testify before any

15 court in Bosnia-Herzegovina and in which case if you did?

16 A. I have not testified in any case before the court in

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina. I was called so that the court in Travnik would

18 determine certain facts through me in a case that I had nothing to do

19 with, and during the first conversation it was established that I did not

20 have a direct connection with that case so that in the procedural sense I

21 was not involved in the proceedings.

22 Q. Did you give any statements in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

23 A. The statements that have to do with the issues dealt with in this

24 court were something I gave to representatives of the United Nations and

25 representatives of this Tribunal which was founded somewhat later.

Page 20521

1 Q. Thank you. Now we'll move to the crisis situation. Up until

2 then, did you receive instructions or directives from the

3 Party of Democratic Action, that is to say from its headquarters, in a

4 written or oral fashion? From what point in time did you have

5 communication with Sarajevo?

6 A. As far as I remember, regular and unobstructed communication with

7 Sarajevo was in operation up until the end of January or -- excuse me, up

8 until March 1992.

9 Q. Was that up until the end of March?

10 A. During one part of the month of March. I have to clarify this

11 for the Trial Chamber. Direct communication, direct contact with the

12 party does not only imply the sending of instructions by telephone or

13 written instructions. It also implies that the president of the party

14 would go to the headquarters of the party to attend meetings, and

15 therefore it includes physical communication. The physical communication

16 was already made difficult in late March and in the month of April it was

17 no longer possible.

18 Q. So you could not even have telephone or fax connections?

19 A. As far as I know, the telephone lines were still working but what

20 level of decisions were -- the decisions that were forwarded, it is

21 something I don't know or the form of the decisions, because my position

22 was such that I was not directly involved in this hierarchy. And the

23 contacts with the party leadership were directed to the president of the

24 party in Prijedor.

25 Q. Thank you. As for the Deputies Club of deputies from SDA, did it

Page 20522

1 discuss the possible resolution of the crisis in BiH before the war, that

2 is to say the peace plans and everything else that was in the air at the

3 time?

4 A. You probably mean the Deputies Club at the republican level?

5 Q. Yes, yes.

6 A. It is quite clear to you that each party discussed important

7 issues during the meetings of the deputies clubs, so that included the

8 party that I was a member of. On several occasions at club meetings we

9 discussed various issues that concerned the state, but at which meeting

10 the club discussed which issues that's something I cannot recollect.

11 Either the dates or the precise chronology, but I do know that there was

12 talk about that.

13 Q. Thank you. Can we now please see 1D04493.

14 Did you agree to have co-operation with the HDZ and the SDS even

15 before elections in terms of dismantling the communist system and

16 creating a post-election coalition?

17 A. That was a general agreement because the SDA declared its main

18 political goal and that was dismantling the one-party communist system.

19 The SDS also declared that that was its main goal, the HDZ also declared

20 the same goal as its main goal. On the basis of this common goal in the

21 pre-election period we already achieved some co-operation. As for the

22 SDA, this co-operation was open, sincere, direct, and the SDS agreed to

23 some elements of this co-operation. And later on it showed in practice

24 that it did not agree with that and that it pursued a different policy.

25 Q. Thank you. We'll come to that. Can we please zoom in on the

Page 20523

1 upper hand right corner in B/C/S so that Mr. Sejmenovic could easily read

2 it. Yes, just that.

3 Were these the basic principles and goals of the party, that is

4 to say the affirmation of human rights, democracy, and then under item 3

5 we see the affirmation of the national identity of the Bosnian Muslims.

6 And further on, if we look at the market economy and everything else that

7 was all the same, common, also the preservation of the territorial

8 integrity of Bosnia and Herzegovina and of Yugoslavia and also preserving

9 its borders; is that correct?

10 A. That's correct. I wish to point out to item 4 which you skipped

11 and I think the Chamber should be minded of it and it includes autonomy

12 and freedom of activity for all religious communities. So all religious

13 communities.

14 Q. Yes, yes. So was there full agreement between the SDS and the

15 SDA about these principles? Did the SDS accept this programme so that a

16 coalition would be possible, both at the central level because this was

17 the programme at the central level, wasn't it?

18 A. Probably, it was similar at the central level. The SDS accepted

19 some elements of the programme. By definition it could not accept

20 everything.

21 Q. But it did not dispute or reject coalition, which means that this

22 was acceptable for the Serbs; correct?

23 A. Yes, it was acceptable for the Serbs. It was acceptable for us

24 at the moment when this list of goals was written and under the

25 circumstances under which it was written and in the Yugoslavia which

Page 20524

1 existed in such a shape at that time.

2 Q. Thank you. Let us have a look at the penultimate paragraph,

3 saying that information meetings were held in Prijedor, Kamicani,

4 Carkovo, Zecovi, Hambarine, Kozarac, Cejreci, Puharska, Rakovcani

5 Biscani, Rizvanovici and other places. These villages which are listed

6 here were all 100 per cent populated by Muslims?

7 A. No, they were not 100 per cent populated by Muslims. I wish we

8 would not improvise when we use specific terms. Some of these villages

9 had a mixed up ethnic composition.

10 Q. Well, I said almost, not that they were really 100 per cent. But

11 were they predominantly Muslim populated villages?

12 A. Some of them were and the others weren't.

13 Q. Which was the one that did not have a Muslim majority?

14 A. Puharska was not populated 100 per cent by Muslims. Rakovcani,

15 Cejreci also. Some of the villages where this was held, Kozarac as

16 well -- or if you wish I can analyse it village by village and provide a

17 bit more specific information.

18 Q. Thank you. Was there more than 60, 70, or even 80 per cent of

19 Muslims in terms of the population. Not 100 per cent but much more than

20 one half.

21 A. Yes, in some villages, and in others not. But if we were to take

22 all the villages together we could say that it was probably 70 or 80

23 per cent of non-Serbian population. There were other ethnic groups there

24 in addition to Bosniak Muslims.

25 Q. Thank you. So you are noted here as the secretary of this board;

Page 20525

1 is that correct?

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Thank you. May I ask you whether you know -- you had not been

4 born at the time but do you know that in Prijedor the municipality of

5 Prijedor as it was in the 1990s was increased by other municipalities

6 which were joined to it? Would you agree and do you know that Kozarac

7 used to be a municipality and so was Ljubija and some other places as

8 well?

9 A. Omarska used to be a municipality as well and I'm familiar with

10 that.

11 Q. Thank you. Omarska with the Serbian majority, Kozarac with

12 Muslim and Ljubija with a Croat majority?

13 A. Well, now we can guess, you and I, because we would have to go to

14 archives, see what was the information, and then provide specific

15 answers.

16 Q. Thank you.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, please?

18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1821, Your Honours.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Do you know that the Communist authorities changed the statute of

23 the Prijedor municipality before the elections?

24 A. Can you please tell me what was changed in the Prijedor

25 municipality statute?

Page 20526

1 Q. Let us have a look at document 1D02908. No, that's not the one.

2 That's not the document. 02908. Did I say that correctly? Yes, now we

3 have it.

4 Please have a look at Article 3 and tell us whether it is correct

5 that Article 42 is changed and that social funds were established,

6 socially owned funds were established. Is it correct that they were

7 meant to be used for sports, culture, and so on and so forth?

8 A. Yes, that's what it says here, that socially owned funds were to

9 be established. What sort of funds they were, I don't know, nor do I

10 know how that had been regulated before this change of statute. I would

11 need to see both the document and a little bit of time to study that and

12 then give an opinion that could be of any use to the Trial Chamber.

13 Q. Thank you. Further it says that Article 43 is changed and the

14 social funds shall be financed from contributions for the use and other

15 funds in accordance with the law; is that correct?

16 A. Yes, it's correct but it doesn't tell you anything because it's

17 not clear what these funds were and how they would be used. There are no

18 rules about the use of the funds.

19 Q. It says under Article 3 the new Article 42 will be as follows:

20 [As read] "In order to ensure material and other conditions for

21 the building, use, and protection of residential buildings and activities

22 of special importance for the society on the principles of mutuality and

23 solidarity in accordance with the law socially owned funds shall be

24 established?"

25 So everything is specified, isn't it?

Page 20527

1 A. Yes, the purpose of its use is specified under Article 3, that's

2 true. So one could say that these are a sort of communal funds.

3 Q. In addition to the communal funds were there also funds for the

4 youth, for sports, for culture, and other funds?

5 A. Well, joint social activities were mostly financed from funds and

6 that is a clear thing.

7 Q. Thank you.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the next page.

9 Can you please focus on this Article 6. You might even read it

10 out aloud, Article 6 of this decision.

11 A. The word "open" the composition and selection of the council

12 before Article 223 shall be raised and Article 223 shall be changed and

13 read as follows: The Assembly of the municipality of Prijedor will

14 consist of one chamber and it will have 90 deputies of which 41.59

15 per cent are of Serbian ethnicity, 38.7 per cent of Muslim ethnicity, 6.7

16 per cent of Croatian nationality, the Yugoslavs shall make up 9.7

17 per cent and 3.31 per cent of other ethnic groups in relation to the

18 ethnic composition of the population of the Prijedor municipality.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 6 of this

21 document or perhaps 7 -- no, 6 in e-court.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

23 Q. Do you agree that this article, 13, amends Article 260 of the

24 statute, changing the way the president of the municipality is elected

25 and it introduces a new element that did not exist under the Communist

Page 20528

1 regime, namely, that the president of the municipality will be nominated

2 by the winning party?

3 A. That's one of the reasons why both you and I wanted to topple the

4 Communist regime.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

7 JUDGE KWON: Before doing that, could you explain to us how this

8 is relevant to your case, Mr. Karadzic.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's the basis for all that

10 happened in the elections and after the elections. If you look at

11 Article 1, you will see that the ethnic picture is that 41.5 per cent are

12 Serbs, 37.something are Muslims and 17.something are Croats.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I would kindly suggest to the Court

14 that to this we add information that this data reflects a census that was

15 done 20 years prior and a new census was pending just a few months after

16 this document was drafted and indeed this new census was carried out. I

17 just wanted to clarify for the Court what these percentages really mean.

18 JUDGE KWON: Well, very well. We'll mark it for identification

19 as Exhibit D1822, but please bear in mind our time is limited,

20 Mr. Karadzic.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Let us just clear one thing up, Mr. Sejmenovic, are you claiming

24 that in 1981 there was no census and that these are not data from 1981?

25 A. I'm not claiming that. I don't know the exact date of the

Page 20529

1 census, but you said yourself it was ten years before this document was

2 made.

3 Q. Thank you. Did the Serb side object to the outcome of the

4 elections and that even the ex-Communists and Serbs complained that the

5 elections were rigged?

6 A. You mean at the level of the state or in Prijedor?

7 Q. In Prijedor.

8 A. In Prijedor demands were made to the local electoral commission.

9 All complaints were reviewed according to the legal procedure. Some of

10 those complaints were granted and in a minor segment the elections had to

11 be repeated in the presence of observers and quite regularly these

12 elections were repeated, although they could not significantly change the

13 overall outcome of the elections.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 1D04495.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Could you please look at this. In the top left corner you see

17 your name in Cyrillic. It says you were elected with 812 votes more than

18 the left-wing candidate won, the man called Marko Pavic, who is still

19 mayor of Prijedor, and you got 812 votes more than he. A bit lower you

20 will see that the SDS is unhappy about the ethnic structure, that it does

21 not reflect the census percentages which were 41.6 per cent for Serbs as

22 opposed to 31.7 Muslims.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we raise this page.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

25 Q. Do you recall this document? It's Kozarski Vjesnik, 7 December

Page 20530

1 1990.

2 A. I remember Kozarski Vjesnik published all sorts of

3 interpretations of the electoral process, but I also remember that the

4 SDS in Prijedor wanted that there should be more Serbs in Prijedor than

5 there really were and it was not our fault that there were not more Serbs

6 as the SDS wished.

7 Q. Let's not go into that debate.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we raise this page. Can we see

9 the bottom part of the left column.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

11 Q. Do you see the SDS is complaining that the quotas written into

12 the statute were not observed. The SDS wants the annulment of the

13 elections and the opposition replies that everything is according to the

14 actual ethnic representation --

15 JUDGE KWON: Can we see page 2 in English.

16 Do you remember the question and answer the question, or shall I

17 ask Mr. Karadzic to repeat his question?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps it would be good if he

19 could repeat the question.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Do you see in these texts that the SDS is asking for the

22 elections to be annulled because they suspect there has been

23 falsification because the ethnic quotas are not complied with?

24 A. The SDS lost these elections. That's the main reason why the SDS

25 complained, looking for any excuse whatsoever to organise extraordinary

Page 20531

1 elections. The main reason for these complaints is the SDS did not win

2 in Prijedor.

3 Q. I'm not investigating now whether this is true or not. I just

4 want to establish one thing: Did the SDS have objections?

5 A. Sir, you're showing me a page from a local newspaper. I don't

6 know who wrote this article, how they wrote it, with what intentions.

7 But one thing is certain: The SDS complained and protested about the

8 result of the elections.

9 Q. That's good.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see the upper right

11 corner. That's it and we need the first page in English.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. This says, doesn't it, that both the communists and the DSS --

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: There is a whistling sound

15 when Mr. Karadzic speaks.

16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

17 There seems to be a technical problem. I do have the same --

18 just a second.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Am I the only one who doesn't hear

20 it. Should I push the microphone away? Is that better? But I hear

21 myself, that's the problem.

22 JUDGE KWON: Do the interpreters have the same problem?

23 THE INTERPRETER: We will not know until Mr. Karadzic resumes.

24 JUDGE KWON: Could you put your question, Mr. Karadzic.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20532

1 Q. Do you see, Mr. Sejmenovic, that the SK-SDP and the DSS, that is,

2 both left-wing parties, say that the chairman of the electoral board in

3 Hambarine just gave a present of 500 votes to the SDA and they wrote into

4 the ballot the SDA candidate under number 2 and that's why a demand was

5 made to initiate proceedings. Can you see that?

6 A. I can see that. It's written in the article, but what I'm saying

7 is that anyone could write any kind of article. The SDA also had its own

8 view of the electoral process, its own interpretation, but you don't

9 quote those articles. You quote only those that reflected the

10 dissatisfaction of the SDS. The electoral commission took into account

11 all complaints and followed regular procedure in completing the electoral

12 process, as envisaged by the law. There was a need to repeat one part of

13 it and it was repeated.

14 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, we are now not trying to establish whether these

15 people are right or not, but do you agree that this text does not refer

16 to the SDS. It refers to two left-wing parties, the Communists and the

17 Socialists?

18 A. It says something different at the bottom. The Communists

19 actually thank the doubting Toms for their mistrust, et cetera.

20 Q. I'm saying something different. The Communists and Socialists

21 said that 500 ballots were allocated by one man to the SDA. That man

22 voted on behalf of 500 local residents. That's not the SDS.

23 A. That's the Communist bloc that we all wanted to defeat.

24 Q. Can this be admitted?

25 A. May I also mention to the Court one important detail regarding

Page 20533

1 these articles? These were elections into the house of municipalities.

2 That's a separate electoral list and the voting was for the

3 representative of the Prijedor municipality into the house of

4 municipalities of the republic parliament. There were separate elections

5 for municipal MPs. So this is a different list and I can name the person

6 who voted -- I can say that the person called Mevludin Sejmenovic got the

7 votes of a significant number of Serbs as well and the voting was by name

8 and surname. I can even provide the names of these people who voted for

9 me.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

11 JUDGE KWON: While we can admit it -- but I'm still struggling to

12 understand the relevance. I don't think you are claiming this is one of

13 the reasons for the arrest of this witness. Let's come to 1992 -- this

14 is all 1990s.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. But with all due

16 respect, Your Excellencies, you should say that to the Prosecution, that

17 they should not spread their ambitions to the pre-war and pre-electoral

18 period. My questions emanate from the examination-in-chief and with

19 every witness they repeat the whole story, so I have to challenge every

20 witness on every point. That's what this is about.

21 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit it as Defence Exhibit D1823.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Do you agree that already towards the end of August, throughout

25 Bosnia and Herzegovina there were many hotbeds of crisis and rising

Page 20534

1 tensions and the three of us, Izetbegovic, Kljuic, and myself, made a

2 proposal, or rather, issued an instruction that the SDS and the HDZ

3 should establish joint groups to monitor any incidents and developments

4 that could affect inter-ethnic relations?

5 A. Towards the end of August, as you said, there was a whole series

6 of crises caused by incidents triggered by paramilitary units, by the

7 JNA, and by the --

8 Q. I didn't ask you that --

9 A. But I have to specify what kind of crises these were.

10 Q. I'm asking you what I'm asking you. Did we recommend joint

11 groups --

12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

13 MR. TIEGER: Before the discussion goes any further. The

14 previous exhibits related to 1990. There was a suggestion by the Court

15 to go to 1992. Now there's a reference in the abstract to August.

16 Perhaps it's useful to specify whether it's 1990, 1991, or 1992.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I cannot help making an

19 introduction into how the crisis occurred and what we did to deal with

20 it.

21 JUDGE KWON: The question was whether it was in 1990 or 1991.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] End August 1991, the beginning of

23 the crisis. The crisis did not begin in 1992.

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D181, please.

Page 20535

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I'm not going into whether this was necessary.

3 I'm just reminding you, if you remember, that three leaders of national

4 parties recommended that joint groups should be formed to monitor events

5 that lead to tensions and report back to the head offices?

6 A. I'll be precise, it's the SDA that suggested this initiative to

7 the SDS and the HDZ. The SDS accepted this initiative at the level of

8 the Presidency, and that's how this initiative originated. I believe it

9 is important to mention before this Court who originated this idea.

10 Q. Do you see in the second paragraph it says that the groups would

11 inform the leaderships of their parties with all the members of the

12 groups signed and that they will report on all the events and also

13 underline all the differences that may exist between them?

14 Did you actually proceed this way?

15 A. We actually did even more than is written here.

16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We lost the -- if Mr. Karadzic take

17 a look into the transcript whether it reflects all the conversations.

18 Please put a pause between the question and answer.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last question and answer:

20 [In English] "Did you actually proceed this way?

21 "We actually did even more than is written here."

22 JUDGE KWON: No, previous one.

23 THE ACCUSED: And that is satisfactory. [Interpretation] The

24 previous question is -- I think it's good and the answer is also good.

25 Right. Everything's fine.

Page 20536

1 JUDGE KWON: What was the answer to the previous question? You

2 started asking the second question while your first question was being

3 interpreted.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said "do you see, do you see in

5 the second paragraph," not do you say. Do you see in the second

6 paragraph that the head offices of the parties, not leaderships, should

7 be informed with all members of the groups signed and highlighting all

8 the differences between the members of the groups concerning the

9 incidents -- actually, the mistake in the transcript is that "Did you

10 actually proceed this way?" Is a question, not an answer. And the

11 witness answered: "We actually did even more than is written here."

12 That's the only remedy the transcript requires.

13 JUDGE KWON: And the answer to the previous question was "yes"?

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

15 Q. Is that so, Witness?

16 A. We can say "yes," but I have already said that we worked in the

17 spirit of inter-ethnic tolerance and we tried to avoid problems even more

18 than is stated in this document.

19 Q. Thank you.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

21 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification, pending English

22 translation.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1824, Your Honours.

24 JUDGE KWON: You have an observation, Mr. Tieger?

25 MR. TIEGER: I believe that document is already in evidence as

Page 20537

1 D00264.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you very much.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D04494, could we have that,

4 please.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Mr. Mirza Mujadzic, after the elections, issued this statement

7 saying that they were pleased with their victory over the left forces,

8 not the SDS, and that the leftist forces nevertheless succeeded and this

9 shows that, yet again, Prijedor turned out to be some kind of

10 mini-Moscow.

11 A. I know the president of the SDA and the presidents of other

12 parties expressed their pleasure in different ways because they had

13 scored a victory over the League of Communists. This is a manifestation

14 of that satisfaction.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

18 THE REGISTRAR: MFI D1824, Your Honours -- I'm sorry,

19 Exhibit D1824.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. You mentioned that one of the reasons for this crisis were the

23 police insignia; right? The Serb side thought that they had established

24 the Krajina and that those who are within the AR Krajina should wear new

25 insignia; right?

Page 20538

1 A. We've already discussed August 1991. Many things happened from

2 August 1991 until the problem of insignia, that came up in 1992 -- in

3 April, actually. So it was almost a year later. I repeat,

4 chronologically speaking, many things happened between those two dates.

5 Q. Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic. I am following the instructions of

6 the Trial Chamber to move on to 1992 as soon as possible, otherwise I

7 wouldn't mind discussing 1991.

8 A. I think it would be right for us to know that many things

9 happened in the meantime before this happened in 1992.

10 Q. Then tell me, when was the Autonomous Region of Krajina

11 established?

12 A. The first information about the SDS planning the establishment of

13 the Autonomous Region of Krajina came after one month, after that

14 document was signed, the one that you showed, stating that inter-ethnic

15 relations would not be disrupted. Soon after that the SDS started

16 preparing for the establishment of the Serb Autonomous Region and then

17 soon after that the SDS took the repeater on the Kozara.

18 Q. Wait, wait, wait. Can you answer this question: When was the

19 Autonomous Region of Krajina established?

20 A. In the second half of 1991. That's when the meeting in Celinac

21 was held. I don't know the exact date. And at that meeting you

22 discussed the establishment of the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

23 Q. Do you know that the Autonomous Region of Krajina was established

24 in the first half of September by way of a response to the defeat of the

25 historic Serb-Muslim agreement, yes or no?

Page 20539

1 A. Your Honours, these epic categories like historic agreement this

2 and that and the other thing, could these questions please not be put to

3 me? This is a figment of people's imagination. I would like to deal

4 with specific questions. After a parliamentary debate in

5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, stating that things like this should not be done,

6 this was established in the second half of 1991. I'm not in a position

7 to pin-point the date and the gentleman just said what date that was.

8 Q. Thank you. Are you trying to say that July and August of 1991

9 did not involve intensive talks on an historic agreement between the

10 Serbs and Muslims?

11 A. Everybody negotiated with everybody in order to avert a war --

12 Q. Wait a minute. The question is very specific. Izetbegovic

13 supported the negotiations. The negotiations were proposed and conducted

14 by Zulfikarpasic and Filipovic. Do you know that, these two months in

15 the summer of 1991 were marked by these intensive negotiations; and then

16 on the 31st of August, Mr. Izetbegovic no longer rendered his support to

17 this?

18 A. The academician Filipovic and Mr. Zulfikarpasic travelled to

19 Belgrade, that I do know.

20 Q. Thank you.

21 A. The details, what they talked about, I don't know about any of

22 these details, and I know least of all what the outcome of these

23 negotiations was.

24 Q. Now --

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Actually, can this be admitted,

Page 20540

1 what is here, right here? The witness confirmed that the democratic

2 forces were cheering the fact that the Communists had lost.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, that is not what I

4 said. I said expressing satisfaction, whereas cheering in a certain way

5 is something that means a completely different thing in our language.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

7 JUDGE KWON: We admitted it already as Exhibit D1824.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise then. 000285, can we

9 have that, please.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I have to move on to April 1992 and if we have enough time we are

12 going to go back to the autumn of 1991. The 65 ter number is 00285.

13 Talundzic was chief of police in Prijedor until when?

14 A. Until you expelled him from his job by using weapons, I'm

15 referring to the SDS.

16 Q. With all due respect, sir, I know you're an intelligent man.

17 Give us answers. Until which date?

18 A. The 30th of April when an armed military coup took place and when

19 power was forcibly taken over in Prijedor.

20 Q. That's not what I asked you. I asked you what date. Now, take a

21 look at this, sir, the chief of the regional MUP, Mr. Zupljanin, on the

22 16th of April says who it is that is supposed to change their insignia

23 and to pledge an oath of allegiance to the new entity and it says the

24 obligations mentioned in this telegram do not apply to the Prijedor and

25 Kotor Varos public security stations. Authorised officials at these

Page 20541

1 stations may continue to wear the current insignia if they wish until

2 further notice, until the political situation in these municipalities is

3 resolved.

4 Do you know that Talundzic had to receive this telegram

5 personally?

6 A. I assume he did get it if regular communications channels were

7 used, however, I did not talk to Talundzic and I do not know if he

8 received it personally.

9 Q. So insignia were not a problem; right?

10 A. At that moment, that is to say, on this date, it says in the

11 telegram, in the dispatch that they can keep their legal and legitimate

12 insignia of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

13 Q. Thank you.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

16 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1825, Your Honours.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Now I'd like to ask you the following: Do you know,

19 Mr. Sejmenovic -- actually, did you attend a meeting of the SDA? There

20 were ministers and MPs there and important members of the party. This

21 was on the 10th of June, 1991, at the police building.

22 A. Are you referring to 1991? I attended this meeting in 1991, the

23 one that you're referring to, when the movement for the preservation of

24 Bosnia and Herzegovina and for the protection of Bosnia and Herzegovina

25 was established.

Page 20542

1 Q. Thank you. It could hardly be called that, could it? You

2 established a council for the national prevention [as interpreted] of

3 Muslims?

4 A. That is not right. This is forgery of the name of that

5 conference. It was for the preservation of Bosnia-Herzegovina, not for

6 the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The persons who were present there

7 were of Bosniak and Serb and Croat ethnic backgrounds. This was a

8 gathering of academicians of the Academy of Sciences and Arts of

9 Bosnia and Herzegovina, of all prominent persons who wished to attend

10 that gathering, ministers, MPs and so on and so forth.

11 Q. Give me the name of one single Serb.

12 A. I don't know just off-the-cuff who the members were. I just know

13 that they were present and that part of them took part in the debate.

14 Q. Give me just one single name.

15 A. I'm telling you now, I cannot even enumerate all the Bosniaks.

16 Q. Thank you. Just give me yes or no answers. It's no problem if

17 you don't know. Just tell me if you know. So do you know that on the

18 31st of March a decision was made to establish the Patriotic League?

19 A. I don't know the date.

20 Q. Do you know that a decision was made?

21 A. I don't know who made the decision, but I do know that the

22 Patriotic League as a movement, as a movement, for preserving

23 Bosnia-Herzegovina was indeed established, or rather, an attempt was made

24 to establish it but in effect it never came to life.

25 Q. Oh, isn't that right?

Page 20543

1 A. Movement --

2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Too fast. It's too fast for the

3 interpreters to follow.

4 Mr. Sejmenovic, please --

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My profound apologies, my profound

6 apologies, and I shall try to facilitate your work as much as I can in

7 the future.

8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you as well, please wait.

9 Yes.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I'm saying that the Patriotic League, according to the decision

12 reached on the 31st of March, was established on the 30th of April; that

13 on the 10th of June, the political staff of this Patriotic League was

14 established and it was called the Council for National Security. Up

15 until September 1991 Sefer Halilovic established nine regional staffs and

16 about 90 municipal staffs and there was a headquarters. Up until the

17 beginning of the war there was this Patriotic League in 103

18 municipalities and they all had staffs as well. You just say yes or no.

19 A. Your Honours, no, and in the municipality of Prijedor,

20 Sefer Halilovic did not establish anything.

21 Q. Thank you. So you claim that Sefer Halilovic missed Prijedor

22 altogether and established all of this in the remaining 103

23 municipalities?

24 A. Your Honours, call Sefer Halilovic and ask him. Do not ask me

25 about this particular subject matter that I am not very familiar with.

Page 20544

1 It is not going to be of any use to you or me or the Trial Chamber. I

2 don't wish to improvise. I have said what I know about this.

3 Q. All right.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 06708, could I have that,

5 please. That was the 65 ter number.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, this is an intelligence report of a certain

8 Milos -- well, no. You will see that he's a professional, impartial.

9 What is described here is all the things that were established, the

10 representatives of Sandzak, Kosovo, Belgrade, foreign countries, the

11 presidents of Municipal Assemblies that were elected by the SDA and also

12 prominent individuals of Muslim ethnicity and then there is a reference

13 to all the persons who were present there because journalists were not

14 allowed access. So obviously a Muslim worked for the secret service.

15 And now what is stated is all the things that were decided. It says that

16 there were different cases of extremists who were not discovered --

17 actually, were detected in Bosanska Dubica and in Prijedor and that all

18 of that indicates -- indicates that there is co-ordination, agreement --

19 just a moment, please, let me find this in Serbian.

20 Actually, do you see this, sir?

21 A. Your Honours, I see this, but I don't know who Milos is. I don't

22 know what makes him impartial.

23 Q. You will see.

24 A. I don't see how he's a Muslim and the SDA did not have any groups

25 of extremists in Bosnia and Herzegovina and what is stated here

Page 20545

1 unambiguously is that there were groups of extremists.

2 Q. Thank you. Did you know these persons, Asim Dizdar [phoen]?

3 A. No.

4 Q. Mirza Mujadzic?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Omer Veladzic.

7 A. By sight, if that is the man I have in mind.

8 Q. Atif Kamber. I can mention a lot of them. Izet Muhamedagic; did

9 you know him?

10 A. I know Izet Muhamedagic. He was the justice minister.

11 Q. Can we have the next page in Serbian and in English?

12 A. Rusmir Mahmutcehajic, the prime minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina is

13 referred to here as well, and you call these people extremists?

14 Q. Sir, you know full well that the international community asked

15 for Mahmutcehajic to step out of politics because he was an extremist.

16 A. Well, most of the requests were addressed to you; however, you

17 did not heed them and that is why all these things happened, all the

18 things on account of which we are all sitting here today.

19 Q. So do you see the other names on this other page here, Asim

20 Dizdar, Omer Veladzic. Can we have the next page in Serbian and leave

21 this page in English?

22 A. Your Honours, I do see this. Thousands of names could have been

23 written here, but what does this mean? It doesn't mean a thing to me.

24 Q. Are you saying that you were at the meeting? You were at the

25 meeting, weren't you?

Page 20546

1 A. I was there for about half an hour and I left.

2 Q. Ah-ha, thank you. So half an hour and then you left. Sir, sir,

3 this is a report of the intelligence service. This Milos appears quite

4 frequently with his impartial names. You will see how he criticises

5 Serbs. He says in the last sentence these activities on arming these

6 persons were made possible by persons from abroad, the Muslims who were

7 temporarily working abroad. Did they receive that or not?

8 A. These persons, Mahmutcehajic, one of those who were listed here

9 who was the deputy prime minister in the government of Bosnia and

10 Herzegovina received weapons from some persons from abroad. I want to

11 stress once again, sir, to you and to the Trial Chamber, I don't think my

12 mind is restricted and I claim that this playing with the witness one

13 anonymous intelligence document with a number of such formulations should

14 be presented to a witness and that I should be requested to comment on

15 it. There are many things that don't make sense in this document so I

16 would ask the Trial Chamber not to be exposed to this sort of

17 responsibility.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sejmenovic, it is for you to answer the question

19 as far as you can know, as far as you can answer. And it is for the

20 Chamber to assess the weight of this document later on.

21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right, Your Honour.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Please have a look at the penultimate paragraph which says who

25 they are, Jasmin Alicic [phoen] from Tukovo; Adil Ganic [phoen], the

Page 20547

1 owner of this; Slavko Ecimovic; Hasan Talundzic, chief of the Prijedor

2 SJB; the Velici brothers, and so on. Becir Medunjanin from Kozarac. You

3 knew all these people and you met them; is that correct?

4 A. These were the SDA structures in this document from the

5 government of Bosnia-Herzegovina, from the deputy prime minister to some

6 municipal members of the SDA. The document contains everyone along the

7 hierarchy from top to bottom. This is what it says and I can conclude

8 that on the first and last names that I remember.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you see that Sefer Dedic is mentioned here as the

10 commander of the Patriotic League in Rizvanovici and you say that the

11 Patriotic League did not exist there?

12 A. As for Sefer Dedic, I have never heard of him. The

13 Patriotic League did not exist in the territory of the Prijedor

14 municipality.

15 Q. Thank you.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted,

17 please.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.

19 MR. TIEGER: I'm actually checking. These documents have come up

20 before so I want to check to the extent as possible we have as much

21 consistency in the rulings on this, so if the court will --

22 JUDGE KWON: On the basis of the witness's evidence that he

23 attended the meeting, albeit briefly, cannot be a basis upon which we can

24 admit it?

25 MR. TIEGER: All right, that's fine, Your Honour.

Page 20548

1 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

2 We'll admit it.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D1826, Your Honours.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Now I will read to you a quotation from a book, but the

7 Oslobodjenje newspaper, the Muslim-run Oslobodjenje from Sarajevo is

8 quoted on the 14th of January, 1999. Do you know who Meho Karisik, also

9 known as Kemo, is?

10 A. I'm familiar with the name from the year 1992. I cannot be quite

11 certain, but I suppose, I think, that he was the chief of the

12 Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

13 Q. Thank you. Here they call him the general commander of the

14 Patriotic League. Please hear what exactly he said.

15 [As read] "We were also convinced into that, this is what Mirza

16 Mujadzic claims to this day and he was the most responsible for this

17 area. Therefore, the Patriotic League could provide stiffer resistance

18 there than it did. It seemed that some people from Sarajevo assessed

19 that in these territories we did not have any chance to resist and that

20 had an impact on the events in the Sana valley to be as they were."

21 So he claims that you did have some forces and that it was

22 possible to do things in a different manner; correct?

23 A. Well, anyone can claim whatever he likes. If these persons

24 watched the situation from a distance or made assessments on the basis of

25 partial information. I was present in the area and I talk very precisely

Page 20549

1 and very openly about things that I am aware of.

2 Q. Thank you. Did you have regular meetings that had to do with

3 Defence preparations in Kozarac and in the local communes around Kozarac,

4 that is to say, rather, in Prijedor and the local communes in Kozarac and

5 the surrounding area?

6 A. The Territorial Defence, as part of its authority and part of its

7 responsibilities, did hold regular meetings.

8 Q. How often and what was the composition of those who attended?

9 A. According to its own rules and propositions, I was not a member

10 of the Territorial Defence structures, so I cannot say anything in detail

11 about the frequency of these meetings. But I did attend two meetings at

12 which the Territorial Defence together with others, that is to say, the

13 representatives of the local communes, talked about the situation that we

14 found ourselves in.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see 65 ter 20186.

16 Can we turn to the next page, please.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Can you see that these are the meetings from the meeting of

19 committee which was composed of these four men and about the distribution

20 of the assistance, that is to say, the funds which were collected abroad;

21 correct?

22 A. Yes. Something to that sense is in this document. I haven't

23 read all of it, but I see some figures and some names.

24 Q. We could turn to the next page in English, though this page shows

25 that Dr. Mirza Mujadzic received some money from people from foreign

Page 20550

1 countries and now it says that the commission received the money and on

2 behalf of the commission it was Mirza Mujadzic.

3 A. He received a certain amount of Deutschemarks. It would be good

4 if we could specify the exact amounts.

5 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat the exact

6 amount.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was 2.500 Deutschemarks or

8 1.250 euros in the current value.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see the fifth

10 page which is the next one. And one page further, please.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see what were the funds

12 collected from membership fees from the members who paid membership to

13 the party, which is something usual.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Yes, yes, but we need the following page, please, or rather two

16 page forwards.

17 You can see that Mujadzic and the others signed this. We can see

18 that the money was changed --

19 A. Please allow me to read it over. I have to read it if you will

20 ask me something about it.

21 Q. 1 million dinars which Alajbegovic gave as a gift to the party?

22 A. We have to say how much 1 million dinars would be today in terms

23 of the worth of the money.

24 Q. 300 dinars for 1 Deutschemark, correct, that's what the document

25 says.

Page 20551

1 A. All right, 3.000 Deutschemarks. It says that. All right. I've

2 seen it. I've read it. Thank you.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please move two pages

4 forward.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please have a look whether the SDA Prijedor talks about a

7 statement from the forum of citizens and there is an invitation to

8 boycott the work and schools, paying for public utilities and so on and

9 all of that before the take-over of power?

10 A. Your Honours, I am a founding member of the citizens' forum in

11 Tuzla together with Dr. Enes Sadikovic and with two other Serb citizens

12 so that any invitation of the citizens' forum to boycott anything is

13 something that doesn't make sense at all even though that is what this

14 paper says.

15 Q. Thank you. At the bottom it says, "Set up a new executive

16 committee" and further down: "Support the initiative of the opposition

17 to set up a presidency."

18 Mugbila Besirevic is the co-ordinator; correct?

19 A. No, I don't know who this is. I don't know what they had in

20 mind. This paper is confusing. It is written on the paper with the

21 official heading of the SDA or that was something that was added to this

22 sheet of paper, but the content itself is confusing so I don't know what

23 to say about this.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

Page 20552

1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.

2 MR. TIEGER: In this instance, I can't see the basis in the

3 witness's answers. I have a little trouble with the relevance in any

4 event. So I think that combination of factors seems to militate against

5 admission -- at least that's my assessment based on the review of the

6 answers provided.

7 JUDGE KWON: Did the witness not confirm that Mujadzic received

8 some certain amount of money?

9 MR. TIEGER: He was reading from the document as I understood it.

10 I understood him to say that is what the document said.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, if you will allow me,

12 all parties at that time and even to this day in accordance with legal

13 regulations may receive donations up to a certain amount. It is

14 something quite usual, especially if they cannot finance themselves from

15 regular sources.

16 JUDGE KWON: So you do not challenge the content of this

17 document, do you, Mr. Sejmenovic?

18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one which is on the screen

19 right now, I find it quite muddled and I don't know what to say about it.

20 I don't see anything logical in it as a basis on which I could comment on

21 it. And the previous paper commented on donations of members of the SDA

22 and I said that that was a usual phenomenon, that all parties always

23 received donations and money and they will continue to do so.

24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

25 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President. I was going to add that I had

Page 20553

1 the impression that this was not one document, but a compilation of

2 separate documents and -- which accounts for the fact that the witness

3 has provided different responses to different portions of the 65 ter

4 exhibit, which does not appear to be one integral document. So to the

5 extent the Court is now considering admission, I think they need to be

6 broken down to the separate pages and the individual comments and whether

7 or not any basis exists. I think -- the witness has indicated if I

8 recall correctly in addition to his comment about -- just now about the

9 nature of donations, I think there was a comment as well about membership

10 fees. I don't recall it specifically, but those would seem to be the

11 only two concrete bases for admission of portions of this exhibit.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, while you are standing, do you see the

13 bottom left part in English page voluntary contributions Essen.doc/JTR.

14 Or Mr. Karadzic, can you explain what this is about?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Gladly. These are the

16 minutes concerning the work of the organs of the Party of Democratic

17 Action Prijedor. The first document is dated the 30th of March and at

18 the bottom of the page it says that a computer shall be bought and that

19 the money would be deposited on the account of the Crisis Staff. The

20 Crisis Staff was to say which account that would be. So that was a

21 donation for the needs of the Crisis Staff on the 30th of March, 1992.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I do not see that

23 document. I would like to see it.

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's go back to the first page of

25 the document.

Page 20554

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The second page is better.

2 JUDGE KWON: No, the first page. What does "Essen" mean? Can

3 you answer that, what "Essen" in the first page is? Why don't you zoom

4 in further, the B/C/S version.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, it says here

6 "voluntary contributions for the SDA party."

7 JUDGE KWON: And "Essen," what does it -- yes, Mr. Tieger.

8 MR. TIEGER: I was going to -- I didn't want to pre-empt the

9 witness, but for what it's worth I note that we have a stamp of the

10 SDA Westfalen and clearly an indication of an area in Germany and Essen

11 would also be a town in Germany. I can't -- I'm not indicating I know

12 specifically that those two are related, but it's a difficult contextual

13 relationship to ignore.

14 JUDGE KWON: And then next page.

15 It refers first to something in relation to Prijedor, 30th ...

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] English, we might have a look at

17 the second page, but this all has to do with Prijedor and in Serbian I

18 can see it. But perhaps the second page in English where it says that

19 the computer which has not yet been bought, that the money should be

20 deposited on the account of the Crisis Staff.

21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll take a break and during the break

22 I would like Mr. Robinson to have a discussion with Mr. Tieger as to the

23 way how this is to be dealt with, given that this is a compilation --

24 seems to be a compilation of various kinds of documents.

25 We'll resume at ten past 4.00.

Page 20555

1 [The witness stands down]

2 --- Recess taken at 3.44 p.m.

3 --- On resuming at 4.15 p.m.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.

5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. Dr. Karadzic would like to

6 explain to you the relevance of that document in context or in connection

7 with other documents that he wishes to put to this witness, but he wants

8 to do that outside of the presence of the witness which is why --

9 JUDGE KWON: Before he does that, could you explain to us as to

10 the -- how that document was compiled.

11 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, that document was admitted as a Defence

12 exhibit in the Stakic case and it appears -- it may also have been

13 admitted in the Tadic appeals because if you see it bears the number at

14 the top "IT-94-1-A" and it was all compiled in one exhibit in the Stakic

15 case at least and then in one 65 ter number by the Prosecution which is

16 where we got it from.

17 JUDGE KWON: No, but the question was not the relevance itself

18 but the foundation on which we can admit this document based upon this

19 witness's evidence.

20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. That's a separate issue from

21 authenticity and that's one that also -- perhaps Mr. Tieger would like to

22 be heard.

23 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry. I feel like my rising -- I was -- it was

24 a bit anticipatory, so I don't want to cut off Mr. Robinson's comments.

25 I just have two quick comments. I don't think anybody is aware of how

Page 20556

1 this document was compiled. It was apparently originally submitted by

2 the Defence in Tadic so no one in the Stakic case was in any position to

3 identify how exactly each document in that compilation may be related to

4 one another or precisely where they came from. And secondly the

5 discussion in the Stakic case clearly reveals that its admission in that

6 case - and I brought to Mr. Robinson's attention the fact that it was

7 admitted - had nothing to do with the underlying authenticity. It was

8 clear that none of the participants were in a position to talk about

9 that. And after some discussion about the document it was sort of

10 admitted out of inertia simply because the document had been discussed.

11 So although I appreciate that there are circumstances where the

12 admission -- many circumstances, in fact, where the admission of a

13 document in a previous case has a great deal to do with a document's

14 underlying authenticity, this does not appear to be one of those.

15 [Trial Chamber confers]

16 JUDGE KWON: We can bring in the witness.

17 In the meantime --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I add something?

19 JUDGE KWON: That is not helpful at the moment, Mr. Karadzic.

20 Yes --

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, not about the document, about

22 this document.

23 JUDGE KWON: I was about to give the ruling as to this document.

24 Yeah, we'll admit this.

25 Just a second. Given that this document was admitted in previous

Page 20557

1 trials and hearings -- proceedings in one package and that we have

2 certain degree of a foundation from this witness upon which we can admit

3 this document, this will be -- and separate from the issue of weight

4 which will be given to this document, the Chamber is of the view we have

5 basis to admit this. We'll give the number.

6 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D1827, Your Honours.

7 [The witness takes the stand]

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, when did you set up Crisis Staffs?

12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: When did you set up

13 war staffs.

14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] War staffs were never established.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. And when were war Crisis Staffs formed?

17 A. Never. All that was set up was set up inside and within the

18 Territorial Defence.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now look at 65 ter 20185.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Before the take-over by the Serbs in Prijedor, did you carry out

22 preparations for war?

23 A. Before the take-over by the Serbs in Prijedor, the only action

24 was strictly according to the instructions of the republic leadership and

25 the republic institutions whenever possible. As far as defence was

Page 20558

1 concerned then it was action through the structures of

2 Territorial Defence.

3 Q. We'll come back to that, but please answer my questions only.

4 Did you carry out preparations for war before the take-over?

5 A. The Territorial Defence, in keeping with the orders of the

6 republic staff for Territorial Defence, carried out activities and its

7 organisational affairs, preparing for defence within its purview and its

8 competencies as prescribed by the laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

9 Q. Do you agree that on the 4th of April Mr. Izetbegovic proclaimed

10 general mobilisation? We don't need to debate this. Just tell me, do

11 you know that on the 4th of April before the recognition of Bosnia's

12 independence, Mr. Izetbegovic proclaimed general mobilisation?

13 A. Mr. Izetbegovic did not proclaim anything. The Presidency of

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina proclaimed an immediate threat of war.

15 Q. Not general mobilisation?

16 A. I don't know about any mobilisation. I know about the decision

17 of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina to proclaim an immediate

18 threat of war. I don't know if it was exactly on the 4th of April, but I

19 repeat it was the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina, not

20 Alija Izetbegovic.

21 Q. I will now put to you the chronology of events. On the 4th of

22 April, Mr. Izetbegovic, or rather, a part of the Presidency, contrary to

23 the veto imposed by Mrs. Plavsic and Mr. Koljevic proclaimed general

24 mobilisation. On the 6th of April he replaced General Vukosavljevic as

25 commander of the Territorial Defence. On the 8th of April he set up a

Page 20559

1 new Territorial Defence and proclaimed an immediate threat of war. Is

2 that correct or not?

3 A. It's not correct. The first thing you said on the 4th of

4 March --

5 Q. The 4th of April.

6 A. That's not true because the full Presidency was still operating.

7 Furthermore, on the 6th of April no new Territorial Defence was set up.

8 Q. I didn't say it was.

9 A. You said a new Territorial Defence was formed.

10 Q. I'll repeat. On the 6th, General Vukosavljevic, a Serb, was

11 replaced. On the 8th a new Territorial Defence was set up and immediate

12 threat of war was proclaimed. On the 12th the new commander sent a new

13 directive for an attack against the Serbs and the JNA. Is that correct?

14 A. It's not correct.

15 Your Honours, I'm facing heavy manipulation here and it is my

16 obligation in my present position to react to this manipulation.

17 Q. Sir, I'm interested in your knowledge, not your opinion. Do you

18 know or don't you know --

19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

20 Mr. Sejmenovic, if you do not agree with the question put to you

21 by Mr. Karadzic, you can say so.

22 Yes, let's continue.

23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please allow me, Your Honour, to

24 say that I don't agree with the form of the questions put to me. Let's

25 take a specific example. The last question said that a directive by the

Page 20560

1 Territorial Defence ordered an attack against the Serbs and the JNA.

2 That is an extremely heavy instance of manipulation that reminds me of

3 times past. Nobody ordered an attack against the Serbs. The order was

4 to defend ourselves from the JNA, from attacks by the JNA. That

5 commander of the Territorial Defence was replaced.

6 Another manipulation is to put to me that a new

7 Territorial Defence was formed. It was still the same

8 Territorial Defence, only the commander who had been under the control of

9 Belgrade was replaced and some officers who were still in JNA barracks.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I have a whole document that I have no time to show to you that

12 proves this.

13 A. We have time for everything.

14 Q. Just tell me it didn't happen. That's an answer too. Do you

15 know that the Serb side set up a Territorial Defence only on the 16th of

16 April?

17 A. On the 16th of April the Serb side did not have to set up a

18 Territorial Defence because the Territorial Defence existed equally in

19 all areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

20 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, that's a political argument.

21 A. It's not a political argument.

22 Q. I'm asking you do you know about it.

23 A. I don't know about that internal decision of yours. It was not

24 my position to know it.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 65 ter 20185. Here it

Page 20561

1 is.

2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. Do you see it is a report about the work of the regional

4 Crisis Staff from its last meeting to date. Distribution of procured

5 assets. The work of daily patrols, military police, report about

6 Kozarusa, Kozarac, Trnopolje, Kevljani, Kamicani?

7 A. You are misreading this. I can see this. Item 1 is a report on

8 the local Crisis Staff which before the war and after was a unit of the

9 Territorial Defence, a local Crisis Staff, and the date is 26 April and

10 ten days before that the republic leadership ordered the mobilisation of

11 the Territorial Defence and its reinforcement so that it be able to

12 efficiently defend the area where people live.

13 Q. Do you see that work is being done to set up a military police

14 force? Do you see that private businessman Bahonjic says that private

15 businessmen should pay to the account of the local commune on account of

16 taxes funds to support the Territorial Defence?

17 A. This is about some sort of police but not the police that you

18 suggest. This meeting was attended also by the police commander in

19 Kozarac. According to orders from the republic leadership from the legal

20 institution of Territorial Defence, it was ordered that all defence

21 capacities be integrated in the area. That was the police and the

22 war-time police which also existed under the law dating back to pre-war

23 times and the Territorial Defence.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20562

1 Q. Look, Kozarac, the purpose of this meeting -- I have to read it

2 in English.

3 A. Read it in our language for my sake.

4 Q. Co-ordination. Everybody should do their part of the job.

5 Causevic says: "I have been left alone without the Assembly."

6 A. Without the president of the local Assembly.

7 Q. He does not -- it's very difficult to make out but it is

8 available in English.

9 A. I don't see it before me.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page in

11 Serbian. There it is.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. Doesn't it say something about the purchase of arms?

14 A. May I see this page displayed?

15 Q. It is displayed. Purchasing seven Zolja hand-held launchers.

16 A. Do not put in terms that are not there. It doesn't say

17 "purchase" anywhere. There's just a list of various weapons. Where did

18 you find the word "purchase"?

19 Q. We'll find it. "The Executive Board should buy ..."

20 A. The regulator for pumps, which is fuel.

21 Q. And then they list what needs to be bought.

22 A. Not bought. That's what you say. It just says Zolja, RPG,

23 automatic rifles. Please do not misread this document in our language.

24 I read very well and I even know the context of these events.

25 Q. So these Zolja launchers fell from the sky? They were not

Page 20563

1 bought?

2 A. Those were the weapons that the Territorial Defence had. At that

3 time there was an immediate threat of war, we were surrounded at that

4 time by you with all kinds of weapons and the Territorial Defence was to

5 protect its population as it was its obligation. And I repeat, protect

6 and defend.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page. I think

8 we need the next page in English too.

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Doesn't it say here "procured two Zolja, 300 Deutschemark?

11 A. Of course it reads that.

12 Q. Two automatic rifles; RPGs, 30 Deutschemark. Was this purchased?

13 A. It was purchased, I believe, from your soldiers.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Territorial Defence purchased

18 this.

19 JUDGE KWON: This will be admitted as Exhibit D1828.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. And you continue to claim you did not have war time

22 Crisis Staffs?

23 A. This is the local staff of the Territorial Defence which received

24 orders on the 14th or perhaps earlier to organise themselves to move into

25 immediate threat of war mode and to use all capacities in case they are

Page 20564

1 attacked.

2 Q. Did this happen even before the immediate threat of war was

3 proclaimed?

4 A. That started happening from the moment when the republic

5 Territorial Defence issued orders to take such action. Before that in

6 the institutions of local communes or political parties, there was no

7 such action.

8 Q. When did the republic TO issue that order?

9 A. If I remember well, sometime in early April.

10 Q. 1992?

11 A. 1992 or perhaps even a bit earlier. I'm not sure now.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 20191, please.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Sir, Mr. Sejmenovic, did you use the public auditing agency to

15 abuse joint funds?

16 A. No. The public auditing agency functioned normally until you

17 manipulated it to redirect the funds to Gradiska and Banja Luka, your

18 towns.

19 Q. Look, in October 1991, 24 October 1991, you see assignments to

20 weapons duty, Kozarac, Kenjar and Bahonjic; Trnopolje, Sead Sivac;

21 Kozarusa, Tadzic; Brdo and Ljubija, Kadiric, Hopovac, Sikiric; Puharska,

22 Rufad Suljanovic. And then it says Dr. Eso something --

23 A. I have to say something about the document.

24 Q. We have to introduce this man. On the 24th of October and

25 30th October on behalf of the Prijedor local commune a proposal is made

Page 20565

1 to hold the congress in Sarajevo on the 6th of September to recruit --

2 I'll read in English because I can't see the original.

3 "[In English] Recruits to stay within BH.

4 "Records to be removed.

5 "Organise a 'women's committee' (Kevic Sikiric Sivac)".

6 [Interpretation] So this should be organised and there is

7 something about the Yugoslav People's Army as well. So recruits should

8 stay in Bosnia and military records should be removed and some women's

9 committee is supposed to be organised. And these ladies, Kevic, Sikiric,

10 and Sivac are supposed to take part in that. Isn't that right?

11 A. That's not right. This document was written subsequently or

12 forged all together. There are five dates here and out of these dates

13 one says that it is the year that comes afterwards. It's as if I were to

14 be writing 2012 now. The first date read 1992 and then it was corrected

15 to read 1991. See here. And then further down, again, you have 1992 and

16 then it was corrected to state 1991. This is one of the elements why I

17 doubt this particular document. Secondly, Rufad Suljanovic had nothing

18 to do with this. The third element: The person referred to here is Sead

19 Sivac had absolutely nothing to do with any of this. We saw each other

20 every day. So as far as this particular piece of paper is concerned,

21 there is really no point in my commenting on it. If you think that you

22 should use it, use it any which way you want, but it was my duty to

23 explain these facts to the Trial Chamber.

24 Q. Thank you. What about Eso and Tadzic, were they appointed to

25 this committee for dealing with refugees in Prijedor 1991?

Page 20566

1 A. The SDA did have this initiative, made a proposal to the SDS in

2 1991, that we try to work together to take care of the refugees that were

3 coming to our region from Croatia. That is a fact, but I'm talking about

4 this particular record.

5 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that item 4 says to be against

6 mobilisation and there's also a threat issued with the UN in The Hague.

7 A. I don't really see any point in any of this. The Hague Tribunal

8 was founded considerably later and somebody here refers to a threat with

9 The Hague. This seems a bit ridiculous -- no, not a bit ridiculous,

10 totally ridiculous.

11 Q. Sir, there was this conference that was held in The Hague before

12 that and this is a threat with this conference in The Hague, not the

13 Tribunal.

14 A. And you needed some municipal committee to issue threats to you?

15 Please, I would not want us to have a discussion at this level.

16 Q. Thank you. Do you see here that there is a reference to the fund

17 for physical education, 100 billion dinars were supposed to be

18 transferred for the functioning of the plebiscite and Tadzic was in

19 charge of that; right?

20 A. That is what is written there. Now who wrote this up, and for

21 what reason, that is not something I can say on the basis of this piece

22 of paper.

23 Q. What was Tadzic, what office did he hold?

24 A. Which Tadzic? There were several of them. There was a Tadzic in

25 the SDA, some lower-ranking official. If that's the Tadzic that you

Page 20567

1 mean, he was a low-ranking official in the SDA.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page in

4 Serbian and in English.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Do you see that Dr. Mujadzic says that a car should be bought for

7 Mujadzic and that some Deutschemarks should be exchanged and so on and so

8 forth. But on the 23rd of September, 1991, a war Crisis Staff for

9 Prijedor had Refik Krkic and Cazim Pezo appointed to it?

10 A. Your Honours, not then or later did the SDA establish any

11 Crisis Staff.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 A. This is something that was either forged or somebody was forced

14 to write this up. This has nothing to do with reality and you can treat

15 it any which way you want. Had there been a staff, I would have

16 explained, I would have said who the members are, just as I did in the

17 case of bodies that actually existed.

18 Q. Thank you. Do you see that on the 23rd of September a state of

19 emergency was proclaimed in war-time conditions, Cazim Pezo, and down

20 here 12th of May, Hambarine, if the local commune cannot meet Sefik Krkic

21 and Cazim Pezo will make decisions and Mirza signed that.

22 A. What is stated on this piece of paper is totally incorrect.

23 There was no state of war proclaimed on the 23rd of February 1991 or

24 imminent threat of war. Imminent threat of war was declared later. And

25 I claim with total conviction to this Trial Chamber that it was only

Page 20568

1 later that something was charged with writing up a chronology based on

2 semi-knowledge in respect of the events involved. This is so telling.

3 An imminent threat of war was declared only later. At this point in time

4 there was no mention of any such thing, any kind of state of emergency or

5 whatever.

6 Q. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Sejmenovic. We are going to ask the

7 OTP to explain this to us because they placed this on the 65 ter list but

8 we don't have to tire you with all of that.

9 JUDGE KWON: No, it is for you to explain to the Chamber as to

10 the nature of that document first, at all. What is your case,

11 Mr. Karadzic? Do you argue this is a minute of meetings, as entitled in

12 the e-court?

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it is absolutely

14 clear that this is an excerpt from SDA minutes that have to do with

15 defence preparations. Several dates are referred to there so they

16 recorded when they did what in terms of preparing for war. That's it.

17 JUDGE KWON: Then it is for you to lay foundation in relation to

18 that.

19 Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20 MR. TIEGER: This was rejected by the Stakic Chamber. Judge Sch

21 omburg said we consider this or believe it to be a forgery and we don't

22 want to see it again.

23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then we are going to ask for

25 expertise with regard to this manuscript. We are going to ask for papers

Page 20569

1 of SDA officials to be sent or handed in.

2 JUDGE KWON: It is for you how to put -- lay foundation in

3 relation to this document, but at the moment we don't have any basis to

4 admit this document.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would just like the Prosecution

6 to explain the chain of custody to us, how this document was obtained.

7 JUDGE KWON: I take it this was offered by the Defence and it was

8 rejected by the previous Trial Chamber.

9 MR. TIEGER: That's my understanding, Mr. President.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. I have to skip certain things, Mr. Sejmenovic. Now I have to

12 deal with some of the things that you said. You said in the Tadic case

13 1310 is the page reference, the 23rd of May, 1996, you said that the

14 Serb Radical Party did not become part of this list but then you also

15 said in the Stakic case when you testified that the SDS and the

16 Serb Radical Party left parliament. Are you trying to say that the

17 Serb Radical Party was in parliament and in the authorities in 1990?

18 A. Which parliament are you talking about? The year is wrong at any

19 rate. It could have been a mistake in the transcript. Perhaps I made a

20 slip of the tongue if I said "1990." I beg your pardon. I would like to

21 know what level you're talking about, the municipality or the republic.

22 Q. November 1991. The SDS and the Serb Radical Party left

23 parliament?

24 A. No, no, that is a mistranslation, a mistranslation. I said that

25 they walked out, or rather, they had this particular candidate for the

Page 20570

1 chamber of municipalities. The SDS did not have a candidate of their

2 own. They reached agreement with the Radical Party that their candidate

3 should be the joint candidate of those two parties for the chamber of

4 municipalities. There is an audio recording of that and you can hear

5 that very clearly.

6 Q. Thank you. So that was in 1990, he was part of our list?

7 A. No, no, not at all. Because only one person went from the

8 municipality and that was me.

9 Q. But it was the elections of 1990.

10 A. Please allow me to focus a bit. In the first multi-party

11 elections, that's the election that I'm talking about.

12 Q. Do you know that the Serb Radical Party did not exist up until,

13 say, 1991 and they ran in the elections in Serbia only in 1992?

14 A. Prijedor, that is not correct. The gentleman who was one of the

15 founders of the Serb Radical Party in Prijedor from the Tomasica or

16 Omarska neighbourhoods was -- I simply cannot remember his name now, but

17 you do have his name in the transcript. I knew him by sight.

18 Q. Thank you. I don't have time and we have proof of the fact that

19 it had not existed at least a year after the elections. You talked about

20 brigades and the garrison in Prijedor and also about these brigades

21 returning from the front line, especially the 5th Kozara Brigade.

22 A. I talked about one brigade.

23 Q. Thank you. Tell the Trial Chamber, is it correct that the

24 garrison in Prijedor was the basic garrison for the 5th Kozara and the

25 43rd Motorised Brigades?

Page 20571

1 A. What the military position was of that garrison in terms of the

2 military profession, that is something I did not know. But what I said

3 was that this garrison existed in Prijedor before the war as well and JNA

4 soldiers stayed in that garrison even before the war, but there were very

5 few -- very, very few of them, perhaps a dozen or so soldiers.

6 Q. So that is the peacetime 5th Kozara Brigade; right?

7 A. Well, that I do not know.

8 Q. Thank you. Did we -- or rather, did you hide around the villages

9 in Prijedor; and if so, how long?

10 A. In the villages above Trnopolje. I hid there for about a month,

11 up to a month and a half maximum.

12 Q. Thank you. Are you the only official of the SDA, the only Muslim

13 adversary of the Serb government that was hiding or were there more of

14 you?

15 A. In the area where I was, I was all alone in contact with part of

16 the remaining population, or rather, refugees. And towards the end of

17 that period I was totally alone. What happened on the other side in the

18 town of Prijedor and in the suburbs and the west, that I did not know. I

19 did hear some information over a transistor radio, some members of the

20 SDA managed to get to the territory of Bihac others remained in Sarajevo.

21 Those who were captured during the first days, that is to say in the

22 initial period, I heard of their fate only later.

23 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that on the 29th of April a telegram

24 arrived from the minister of defence and from the minister of the

25 interior to start the attack in Prijedor?

Page 20572

1 A. I heard about that particular document here. It was shown to me.

2 I was not well-versed because I did not hold any executive office in

3 Prijedor. I did not know about this particular subject matter so I was

4 not very useful to the court from that point of view. I can only

5 speculate. I cannot present any truth with regard to that document

6 because I was not familiar with any such facts.

7 Q. Thank you. Who would be opposed to it, or rather, who would be

8 the enemy if this were to be carried out? Who would you be firing at,

9 the Territorial Defence of Kozarac, et cetera, if this were to have

10 succeeded?

11 A. In respect of this theoretical question, I can only say the

12 following. The Territorial Defence in Kozarac did not have Serbs as

13 their enemy on the other side, especially not the Serb people. They only

14 had fear and they tried to save the people in the area that was under its

15 control, save them from massacres that were already taking place in

16 neighbouring municipalities. That's the only thing that the

17 Territorial Defence had. They had these provocations against them. They

18 did not have an actual enemy so they did not set out to fight against an

19 enemy.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I have 1D2942.

21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. If we are given enough time, Mr. Sejmenovic, we are going to show

23 very nicely through your own documents what the objective was. Please

24 take a look at this document dated the 15th of April and look at this.

25 The garrison command in Prijedor. And then it says inter-ethnic

Page 20573

1 relations are becoming ever more complicated, that's the second

2 paragraph. And the third paragraph is that:

3 [As read] "The most flagrant example are organised armaments of

4 individuals and groups of all ethnic backgrounds and the establishment of

5 paramilitary and para-political forces with pronounced nationalist

6 characteristics."

7 And then it says further down:

8 [As read] "Keep members of the JNA from inter-party interest

9 because in that way we're going to preserve our units and contribute to

10 improved security in the region. Do not allow anyone to manipulate our

11 units and to use them in any struggle for personal, party, or other

12 particular interests.

13 "4. Raise combat-readiness to the highest level and stand ready

14 to defend military facilities, the Zarko Zgonjanin barracks in Prijedor,

15 the military warehouses in Pancic [phoen], Svodna, the repeater, the

16 communication nodes in Kozara, as well as the garrison infirmary."

17 Can we have the next page now, please.

18 Under item 5 he requests that a part of the unit, the

19 343rd motorised one should return to its home garrison.

20 And under item 6 it says without special order of the commander

21 of the 2nd Military District no one can distribute weapons to the

22 Territorial Defence but consider the announcement of seizing weapons from

23 military depots and take measures to prevent such activities.

24 And then further on about the intentions and activities of the

25 JNA and then under 9 it says organise for me a meeting with the

Page 20574

1 authorities, the leadership of the SUP and the municipal staff of

2 Territorial Defence and insist that the meeting be attended by the

3 representatives of all parties from the area and the topic of the meeting

4 shall be the place and role of JNA units in the prevention and expansion

5 of inter-ethnic conflicts and so on and so forth.

6 Major Radmilo Zeljaja, the 15th of April. He issued the order on

7 that date.

8 Were you aware of this?

9 A. I see that document now. I didn't know that it existed there. I

10 wasn't aware of it. I know that the document says one thing and the very

11 same Radmilo Zeljaja and his military units were doing something quite

12 different in the Prijedor municipality.

13 Q. Would you agree with me that at the time the Muslims and the

14 Croats did not respond to call-ups to join the JNA and that the army

15 which Zeljaja had at his disposal was composed mostly of Serbs and a few

16 Croats and Muslims?

17 A. Radmilo Zeljaja wrote this document on the day when the

18 UN Security Council declared that an aggression had been committed in

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina by the JNA. On the very same day Zeljaja sat down and

20 wrote this.

21 Q. I'm not asking you this. I'm asking you whether the Croat and

22 Muslim lads were at their homes whereas the Serbian young men were in his

23 units.

24 A. They were all at their homes -- may I ...

25 Q. All right.

Page 20575

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

2 JUDGE KWON: I may be too kind if I were to give this warning to

3 you, but you have spent two hours and not touched upon a single matter

4 discussed in his examination-in-chief, in particular those in relation to

5 the scheduled incident or his detention. You cannot complain about

6 shortage of time, bear that in mind. I'm still struggling to understand

7 how relevant this is.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Your Honour, the witness was

9 not arrested or taken prisoners just so. He surrendered himself, but

10 what is at stake here is what he and his party had created as an

11 atmosphere and as a development and how come it is not important.

12 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continued]...

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then why did Mr. Tieger ask --

14 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I will leave it in your hands. You

15 understand that the Chamber has been lenient as to the Defence strategy.

16 The witness testified that the various killings or various ill-treatment,

17 et cetera. So one may ask you whether this is the reason for such

18 treatment.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Witness, what is the mass grave --

22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We'll mark for identification this

23 document.

24 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1829, Your Honours.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20576

1 Q. I will first finish with what you're interested in and then I

2 will ask for time to cover what Mr. Tieger asked the witness about, the

3 events and preparations. What is the mass grave in which the four

4 brothers were found?

5 A. I don't know in which one they were found, but I read the list of

6 the buried persons and they were buried in one of the collective burials.

7 You can find the records very easily. I think it's available on the

8 internet. So I think you can sit down and find the information or you

9 can call one of the associations of the people who are looking for their

10 missing relatives or the institute for victims in Bosnia-Herzegovina,

11 they will provide you with that immediately.

12 Q. Thank you, sir. You are testifying so I have to ask you because

13 you introduced this topic. You said that they were found in a mass

14 grave. In which mass grave were they found?

15 A. I just told you, I have no need or reason to analyse the details

16 and information about all the victims as to the mass grave in which they

17 were found. The fact that they were exhumed and buried indicates that

18 the teams who work on that found them in one of the graves and

19 transported them, identified them, and that they have been buried.

20 Q. Have you seen the occasion on which they died?

21 A. No, I didn't. I heard shots and I saw the man who buried them on

22 a following morning.

23 Q. So if you heard shots and if an inmate of Trnopolje or the

24 prisoner, however we call him, means they were buried close to Trnopolje?

25 A. They were liquidated close to a location we call Beslaga's mill,

Page 20577

1 close to a little bridge. That was where the execution took place and

2 somewhere close by they were interred. Now, where the bodies were

3 transferred later on and whether that happened once or twice or three

4 times in order to cover up, I wouldn't know. But I know that after 10 or

5 15 years they have been found or that is to say the majority in the

6 Bosnian Krajina, those who are looked after.

7 Q. Thank you, thank you, you didn't see the murder. Which murder

8 did you see with your own eyes?

9 A. I did not see the murders personally. I did not see any shooting

10 personally.

11 Q. Thank you. Let me tell you now, Mr. Sejmenovic, all you testify

12 in this manner, they took somebody out and later on shots were heard or

13 they took someone away and he never returned. Can you please tell me

14 what you did see?

15 A. I explained on a number of occasions what I did see. I was

16 present when their names were called out, when they left, and I saw that

17 they did not return. We heard shots. In the morning we learned that

18 they had been liquidated. I'm talking about one particular case, and

19 today if you sit into a car and pass by the graveyard in Kamicani, if

20 anyone is doubtful about some of these people, you can read their names

21 there.

22 Q. Thank you.

23 A. And something else, there is a witness here and can you please

24 address me as a witness and not to tell me all you witnesses. I'm not

25 all the witnesses. I'm just a witness.

Page 20578

1 Q. Thank you. Did we see each other in Banja Luka when

2 Mr. Kupresanin took you there?

3 A. No, we didn't. We were close to one another but we didn't see

4 one another.

5 Q. Thank you. Did you describe some of my disagreements with the

6 SDS in Prijedor concerning that?

7 A. I described a disagreement which was expressed by your deputy,

8 Srdjo Srdic with regard to you and a disagreement expressed by

9 Vojo Kupresanin, again with regard to you, and I interpreted that as

10 fully as I could recollect and it is very clearly recorded.

11 Q. Thank you. You confirmed that Kupresanin called someone or

12 someone called him from Omarska and that they talked about bars of soap

13 and so on. Were there any other presidents before the president of the

14 republic that he could have asked that?

15 A. He couldn't have asked the president of the municipality because

16 the municipal officials came to Omarska, they were present there, the

17 chief of the police and so on. The police which guarded the camp had

18 their superior in Banja Luka at each and every moment. Kupresanin was an

19 official from Banja Luka and he certainly didn't address himself on that

20 telephone. He was talking with a president. In my testimony I then said

21 that he was called because the president was looking for him. I'm not

22 sure whether it was said President Karadzic. I'm talking about the

23 telephone conversation which he had inside the Omarska camp. I heard

24 clearly that he said that beds and bars of soap were necessary and so on,

25 but later on he told me that he would contact you. He contacted you

Page 20579

1 while I was sitting maybe 3 or 4 metres from him.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 A. But from the administration building in Banja Luka.

4 Q. Thank you. Did he tell you that I had asked him to see to it

5 that those who were behind the rebellion should be placed in home

6 imprisonment and should have decent conditions and that after that you

7 were under house arrest in a village?

8 A. I don't remember that you told him anything about conditions of

9 any kind. I don't remember that. You told him to provide clothes for

10 me. He told you that he had already decided to get the clothes, that he

11 should make it possible for me to recuperate, to fatten up, that was the

12 exchange you had and a few things you had like all right, all right,

13 fine, okay. That was what I heard, that was the context of your

14 conversation.

15 Q. In the conclusion that it was me who could have been talking with

16 Kupresanin at the time, what month was that?

17 A. It was early August 1990 -- 1992.

18 Q. And you claim that telephone lines between Banja Luka and

19 Sarajevo existed in early August 1992?

20 A. Not only between Banja Luka and Sarajevo but between Banja Luka

21 and Zenica, Banja Luka and Tuzla, all these telephone lines operated. He

22 confirmed that to me and he offered, or rather, requested me to call some

23 numbers in Sarajevo if I wanted to reach someone, if I had anyone there,

24 and he suggested that through me he should contact people in Zenica and

25 Tuzla because of electricity and some other needs. He also offered me to

Page 20580

1 call some of my acquaintances in Prijedor.

2 Q. Thank you. You were shown a video-clip from Trnopolje. You

3 entered Trnopolje on two occasions; correct?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Let me ask you whether you remember when Bozanic asked you

6 whether Penny Marshall and British journalists were a bit further away

7 from Mutic?

8 A. I don't know. In the video-clip I couldn't recognise

9 Penny Marshall and whether they were British journalists that was

10 something I learned later. I learned later which news agency that was

11 and all the specific details. But at the moment when they entered, we

12 knew they were foreign journalists. We all called them foreign

13 journalists.

14 Q. Thank you. Do you remember the cart and the building tools?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were the building tools actually fenced off or wired off with a

17 wire?

18 A. In the video-clip -- perhaps I would need to see it again to see

19 whether that was outside or inside the wiring, but as for the wheelbarrow

20 or the cart I can say the following. Before the war it was a shop

21 selling agricultural equipment and there were many wheelbarrows there.

22 Some of the wheelbarrows were later on, with the approval of the camp

23 authorities, used by the non-Serbs. They were allowed to take a

24 wheelbarrow, go to their own gardens and then dig out potatoes and so on

25 so that those who were the inmates would feed off that.

Page 20581

1 Q. Thank you. I'm saying that the wiring through which

2 Penny Marshall interviewed the inmates of Trnopolje was used to wire off

3 the depot of agricultural tools and equipment rather than Trnopolje

4 itself?

5 A. At the moment, or rather, while I was in Trnopolje, people,

6 inmates, camp inmates were inside the depot. When the first group was

7 released from Keraterm it was transferred to Trnopolje, placed inside the

8 wiring, and all of them were strictly prohibited from leaving the wired

9 area. And it was called the quarantine by the camp authorities.

10 Q. How large is the area that was wired off where the wheelbarrows

11 were? How big is it?

12 A. I cannot say off the top of my head, but we can see that in the

13 video-clip so that I wouldn't be guessing. We have a way to establish

14 exactly how big it was.

15 Q. It was the only area that was wired off; correct?

16 A. No, it wasn't. A major part on another side was also wired off

17 from the camp in the direction of Trnopolje, that is, and a section in

18 the direction of the railroad tracks did not have wiring at that time or

19 later. It was just an empty area that was right along the road.

20 Q. Thank you. If I tell you that several adjacent buildings had

21 their own fences and that Trnopolje, itself, did not have its fence, what

22 would you say to that?

23 A. In the places where Trnopolje did not have its own wire fence,

24 there were machine-gun barrels that were directed at the inmates. There

25 were groups of guards which were changed every two or three hours in

Page 20582

1 these places and the locations of the positions of armed men and

2 machine-gun nests is something I cannot list. These were the ones I was

3 aware of. Later on I learned there were others that I wasn't aware of at

4 the time I was there.

5 Q. Thank you. You said that by a miracle your mother survived even

6 though the Serbs were told that she was your mother, and then you also

7 said that you were afraid for 15 of your friends in Trnopolje, you were

8 afraid that they could be liquidated because they protected you; correct?

9 A. They were told that precisely. They did not look after me, but

10 they contacted me when I entered the camp and they were requested to say

11 where I was at the moment and they didn't know that because I had left.

12 Q. Thank you. And so you claim that your mother could have been

13 liquidated and your friends as well just because the you were the goal of

14 the Serbian forces and you were captured but were not liquidated, that is

15 to say you reported and were not liquidated. How do you account for

16 that?

17 A. It's very easy. Most liquidations and murders took place in the

18 first 20 days when the military forces ethnically destroyed the area.

19 Q. Sir, I'm not asking you that. How come that you say that those

20 who assisted you would be liquidated and you who are the main hero there

21 have not been liquidated?

22 A. Sir, because I could observe the behaviour and conduct of your

23 forces for days and days and days on end and I didn't have a single

24 reason to think anything else. The circumstances, or rather, God's will

25 decided that I would fall into the hands of these authorities at a quite

Page 20583

1 late stage. They told me that themselves. And as for my mother and the

2 circumstances under which she was taken prisoner, it has nothing to do

3 with what we are discussing now. And there were four clips of ammunition

4 that were shot at her but not a single bullet hit her. She managed to

5 run away and that's how she survived.

6 Q. That's not what you said yesterday.

7 A. Yesterday I recounted only one bit of the story, that she

8 survived.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'm under time

10 pressure and this will be another witness that will not have been

11 examined fully. Would you please grant me another session or at least an

12 hour.

13 JUDGE KWON: That's exactly the part which is not acceptable.

14 You have spent, if not wasted, two -- more than two hours and then you

15 cannot complain your time is short. You will have exactly three hours,

16 Mr. Karadzic.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. You've said that you were close to a military column overhearing

19 them talk and you make a long statement about what they were saying, and

20 all that while they were passing by. How come?

21 A. I overheard that conversation because I was hiding. In fact, I

22 had started to run and then I didn't have enough time. I quickly found

23 cover, a small earthen house with a garage beside it. That group that

24 was on foot came close to the garage, shot at the lock, trying to open

25 the door to see if there was a car inside they could drive away. After

Page 20584

1 several attempts they got it open, saw there were no car, and went on.

2 While they were only approaching the garage and while they were trying to

3 open the door, I heard that part of their conversation. I don't know if

4 it's useful or not, but I told all I'd heard.

5 Q. You said first they were passing by and now you say they stopped

6 by the garage.

7 A. It happened twice. Once there was a large group with an APC

8 walking that was on the road to Sivci village by the road close to the

9 Krajina church. There I just lay on the ground quickly plucked some

10 grass, covering myself with it, and then I watched them going along the

11 road and looking to see what they were doing.

12 Q. Can Mr. Mutic confirm about -- confirm what you said about him,

13 about Kozarski Vjesnik and the events in Prijedor?

14 A. It's up to Mr. Mutic.

15 Q. Thank you. [Microphone not activated]

16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Microphone not activated]

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Microphone not activated]

20 THE INTERPRETER: No microphone.

21 MR. TIEGER: Mr. Karadzic's microphone appears to be deactivated

22 or he didn't turn it on so that seems to be the problem why no

23 translation is coming through.

24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. If it is convenient then we will take a

25 break now.

Page 20586

1 motion.

2 JUDGE KWON: I wanted to deal with it at the end but that's

3 granted.

4 Did you follow, Mr. Tieger? Your motion to leave to reply was

5 granted.

6 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic, you have 40 minutes to conclude

8 your cross-examination.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, during that conversation of Kupresanin allegedly

12 with me, was the speaker-phone on or did you hear my voice, as you say,

13 from the receiver?

14 A. From the receiver.

15 Q. And you said at some point, let me not look for a reference now,

16 that it sounded like my voice?

17 A. That's correct. I didn't hear it clearly enough to make out

18 everything that was being said by the voice from the receiver, but I

19 heard the timbre of the voice and I'm sure it was your voice but most

20 importantly Kupresanin said it was you.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly see 1D357, English

22 page 5, Serbian page 7. D1357. Serbian 7, English 6.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. Second paragraph from the bottom where it says that in the

25 beginning of the war the work of the party was put on stand-by on orders

Page 20587

1 from Pale and then the next paragraph says:

2 [As read] "At the time of combat operation and the freeze of

3 party activity, there was no contact with the head office of the party or

4 with the state leadership of the Serbian Republic so that municipal

5 officials who enjoyed the trust of the SDS were for the most part left to

6 their own devices in decision-making and finding solutions without any

7 guide-lines or a general guide-line from the level of the Serbian

8 Republic. The communications were restored only in September 1992."

9 Do you believe me now that there were no contacts?

10 A. Frankly, I doubt the veracity of this document. Between Sarajevo

11 and Banja Luka there was certainly contact and between Prijedor and

12 Banja Luka certainly there was contact. In fact, what I'm trying to say

13 is contact was possible.

14 Q. Between Prijedor and Banja Luka, it's 40 kilometres. It's the

15 same centre. But with Sarajevo, it's much longer. Did you have contact

16 with Sarajevo?

17 A. You had telephone communications.

18 Q. That's not true.

19 A. It's absolutely true.

20 Q. You said that the SDS and the JNA used to say the same things.

21 Is it true, however, that you said that at meetings between 30th April

22 and 30th May that you had with the SDS and the JNA, the SDS was unable to

23 begin a meeting before a JNA representative arrived and the JNA took the

24 chair at all the meetings?

25 A. I said the president of the SDS did not wish to start the

Page 20588

1 meeting, not that he was unable to. We wanted to start the meeting and

2 he would say some other people are supposed to arrive and those other

3 people were garrison commander, commander of the 5th Kozara Brigade,

4 security men, intelligence men, et cetera.

5 Q. Thank you. And they took the chair?

6 A. Correct.

7 Q. Can we see 65 ter 1038. That's it.

8 Look at this, please, 23rd April. The Municipal Board of SDS

9 Prijedor, there are various items, but please look at item 6.

10 [As read] "Make it clear that if Zeljaja (JNA) does not state

11 that the JNA shall protect the Serbian people, then the SDS would call

12 upon all Serb soldiers to leave the JNA and take their weapons with them.

13 The SDS asks the Regional Board of the SDS to activate itself as the

14 political authorities in Krajina."

15 Do you see that there is no certainty how the SDS will act at

16 this point?

17 A. There was not only certainty; they had well-laid plans by that

18 time and what is written in these minutes they wrote for needs best known

19 to them. The facts do not support this.

20 Q. I understand your position, but these are minutes from the

21 meeting. It's not a newspaper article.

22 A. I can, of course, say that that's what's written here, but you

23 asked me for a comment.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger.

Page 20589

1 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Mr. President.

2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

3 Exhibit D1830.

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, may I add something?

5 If we can scroll back to the beginning of the document.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 23rd April, 1992 it says. That's

8 the date when the JNA, the Yugoslav People's Army, officially withdrew

9 from Bosnia-Herzegovina, several days after. It withdrew from

10 Bosnia-Herzegovina, if I remember well, on the 18th of April and the

11 forces present there were no longer the Yugoslav People's Army. That is

12 an internationally known fact. This was some sort of paramilitary beyond

13 and outside of the laws of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This was not the JNA. At

14 the same time it's eight days after the aggression against

15 Bosnia-Herzegovina was officially proclaimed to be an aggression by

16 decision of the UN Security Council.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Who then took over, assumed power, on the 30th of April and who

19 ordered an attack against the JNA?

20 A. All important functions, civilian and military, in the Prijedor

21 municipality that morning after the armed take-over were in the hands of

22 people who were either members or associates of the SDS. When I say that

23 I assert with full responsibility I was there and I heard statements,

24 both commander of the 5th Kozara Brigade and garrison commander

25 Radmilo Zeljaja had the same purpose, the same objective, as the SDS. It

Page 20590

1 was one single group, the same machinery that was quite capable of taking

2 over the whole town within 24 hours.

3 Q. I'm not going to argue with you. I'm going only to say that the

4 JNA withdrew on the 19th of May and you say 18th of May.

5 A. 18th of May, but you asked me about April.

6 Q. These are minutes of 23rd April, where the SDS asks that the JNA

7 make its position clear. You say it was not the JNA, that it was Serb

8 forces.

9 A. [No interpretation] Several days after that we met with that

10 commander. We know what they told us.

11 Q. Between the 30th of April and in the course of May and in June

12 did you continue to meet with people from the Territorial Defence of

13 Kozarac, Kozarusa and the other surrounding Muslim local communes?

14 A. In June those people were detained in camps or had been killed

15 already so there were no meetings in June. There were meetings in May

16 until the all-out artillery attack against Kozarac and Hambarine.

17 Q. Did you meet with those people between 30th April and 30th May

18 and later in June?

19 A. In June, I don't know that anybody was able to meet with anybody.

20 In May, a couple of days before the attack I attended the meeting that we

21 mentioned here several times that was also attended by Commander Zeljaja

22 and Mr. Arsic and your president, Mr. Miskovic.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 20192, please.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. That's another collection of excerpts from SDA minutes. Please

Page 20591

1 look at this. On the 30th of April it says if some groups start

2 provocations in Prijedor, all professional policemen should report to

3 Osman. And then it says Nagib Sivac, Nesib Fazlic and it says they won't

4 hand in their weapons but instead in case of an attack they will defend

5 themselves. Then there is a meeting on the 2nd of May. Can we see the

6 next page. It says the BH Territorial Defence insignia will remain and

7 this man Nagib says many of our men are making provocations. Hasib and

8 another one were shooting yesterday for provocation. The police should

9 arrest them. And this Suljo says that this man is on drugs and then

10 there's a Serb, Dusko Tadic; right?

11 A. I suppose it is Dusko Tadic. It could be someone else, but there

12 were Serbs in the TO of Kozarac, two, maybe more.

13 Q. You see Suljo is talking about the goings on in Kozarusa, about

14 civil disobedience because Serbs were mobilised and they work and then

15 Kenjar says civic disobedience says should also be discussed and then

16 Suljo says below in item 3, that the military police would receive their

17 uniforms on Monday.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page. Next

19 page in English, please.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. If Kozarusa does not receive assistance, it will surrender all

22 the check-points. Did you know about this?

23 A. I can give a comment on this record as it is half literate and

24 half articulate. This is about the structure of the Territorial Defence,

25 whose job it was to operate under the rules of the Territorial Defence.

Page 20592

1 Q. There is a reference to check-points here. Did you have

2 check-points and how many around Prijedor?

3 A. I would appreciate it if you didn't try to insinuate that things

4 existed when they did not. Access roads to Prijedor were free of

5 check-points. These check-points referred to here were those that

6 belonged to the TO, and they have the right and duty to hold them. I

7 don't know what their disposition was and what the layout was, but you

8 could find somebody from the TO to explain it. I know about a couple of

9 check-points in my local commune, in my local branch of the TO.

10 Q. So there were some in Trnopolje, in Kozarusa, in Hambarine as

11 well because there was an incident there on the 23rd of May?

12 A. The TO existed always, throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it had

13 an obligation to hold its own check-points.

14 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, I'm not criticising. Let's see how things were.

15 I'm just telling how things were.

16 A. I'm telling you the facts. I was not part of the command of the

17 Territorial Defence to be able to share with you any details. I've told

18 you what I've seen as an observer.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see page 5.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. This is a transcript of the minutes of a meeting of the 4th of

22 March.

23 A. Not March, later.

24 Q. Did you attend this one?

25 A. I think so. I've already said I attended several meetings, all

Page 20593

1 of them were very much alike, so it does remind me of one of those

2 meetings.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the English version.

4 [In English] Yeah, that's right.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. Please look at item 3. There's a report that the Serbian MUP

7 proposed a check-point to be set up on the main road, and then below

8 Medunjanin says:

9 "I propose, if Cirkin agrees, that he should take over the

10 regional Crisis Staff -- in fact the local Crisis Staff."

11 Look at what Sivac says. That your command and co-ordination are

12 still poor. Can we see the next page. [In English] Next page in

13 English, please.

14 Did Serbs propose to you that you should establish a Muslim

15 municipality of Prijedor?

16 A. We've had some proposals. I don't know who exactly made them,

17 but some people insisted that it should be discussed, not to the Muslim

18 municipality but a civic municipality of Prijedor and it's written

19 somewhere in these minutes.

20 Q. Right.

21 A. But you didn't allow me time to answer your previous two

22 questions.

23 Q. I'm happy. You answered what I asked.

24 A. You asked me about the check-point. It was a tank that you sent

25 with live ammunition 10 metres away from the first houses in Kozarac,

Page 20594

1 first with two and then with one soldier in the crew, and there were

2 negotiations to remove the tank.

3 Q. I wasn't sending any tanks at that time. It was the JNA.

4 A. I mean the system. Then you said Sivac speaks about poor

5 command. Of course, because the command was not properly established for

6 those circumstances and that situation, despite the order that had been

7 given to do it. And in the circumstances, it wasn't even possible to do

8 it.

9 Q. And then Sivac says something about a rapid reaction company.

10 A. Where is that?

11 Q. It says I admit the hierarchy and the command is still poor and

12 he says we will need a rapid reaction company. But let's look at this

13 page, item 3, where it says that the proposal of the Serb chief is to

14 establish a municipality in Kozarac. And [In English] "So that they

15 would not meddle in the work of the bodies."

16 [Interpretation] And Kemo says [In English] [As read] "Only

17 people from Kozarac can create a municipality. Citizens must have their

18 say first of all."

19 [Interpretation] You said to this Trial Chamber that you,

20 Muslims, would have only small farms left. Do you know about the town

21 infrastructure of Prijedor just like the town infrastructure of Sarajevo

22 perhaps would remain shared as in all other towns and according to your

23 own --

24 A. Let me just correct something. I did not say private farms would

25 remain. I said that even big farms were represented as Serb-held

Page 20595

1 property. I'm referring to these so-called ekonomija farms as we called

2 them, these large-scale farms. On the map that was made public there was

3 no information to the effect that anything could be shared or joint. It

4 was a propaganda attack. I remember that there was only the green colour

5 and the red colour and maybe a bit of blue, nothing else.

6 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, the source of your information as a high official

7 should not be a local newspapers; it should be your party structures. Do

8 you know that the old town in the centre of Prijedor was supposed to be

9 within that Muslim municipality?

10 A. Why did your authorities not present that in the newspapers?

11 These newspapers, Kozarski Vjesnik, that was your instrument at the time,

12 very powerful, a lethal one, sowing fear.

13 Q. [No interpretation]

14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear

15 Mr. Karadzic.

16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, did you say anything?

17 THE ACCUSED: Next page, next page in this document.

18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. Take a look at this. On the 5th of May Beco says:

20 [As read] "All of this is interesting but let's just look at this

21 now. They are offering a municipality that favours them, not us. I

22 agree that on Thursday we should issue a statement about Kozarac as a

23 municipality."

24 So you agree that Kozarac used to be a municipality; right?

25 A. In one stage of history, that was a fact, that Kozarac was a

Page 20596

1 municipality. At this point in time, only part of the non-Serbs of

2 Prijedor lived there. A great many others lived in other areas that

3 you're not even mentioning, Ljubija, Hambarine, Rizvanovici, Carakovo,

4 Hambarine, not to mention all of them. But the Serb authorities are only

5 speaking about Kozarac here for reasons of their own. The intentions

6 were clear to us and quite evident. Because we did not get any specific

7 argument that was buttressed by good intentions.

8 Q. Thank you. Do you know that after the take-over of authorities

9 in Prijedor itself, the Croat-Muslim structure took over the police

10 station in Ljubija and reinforced it?

11 A. I don't know about what happened in that part of Prijedor. I

12 know that there was some speculation in that regard. What exactly

13 happened I don't know. I don't know what the truth actually was.

14 Q. Do you know that the Serb side in Kozarski Vjesnik sent a message

15 to the minority Serbs in that area, that they should accept that and that

16 they should be peaceful and loyal?

17 A. I repeat once again, I don't know anything about what was going

18 on in Ljubija and I don't know anything about that article. I've never

19 read it. Maybe it was shown to me here, but I cannot give a proper

20 opinion of that because I don't know what happened at the local police

21 station in Ljubija.

22 Q. Thank you. I just need your answer. When the time comes, I'm

23 going to show this to the Trial Chamber. And what about the 6th of June,

24 were you at the meeting of the local commune of Kozarac and Kozarusa?

25 A. On the 6th of June Kozarusa was torched, or rather, most of it

Page 20597

1 was razed to the ground. There were no people left there. Kozarac was

2 destroyed and I don't think there was any meeting that was held on that

3 day.

4 Q. Thank you.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. Look at the 6th of June here, the meeting held. All of this can

8 be of interest. The Crisis Staff of Kozarac consists of all citizens

9 from all parties --

10 A. This is May, not June.

11 Q. The sixth day of the sixth month.

12 A. That's what is written there, but this subject matter has to do

13 with what was going on in May. There were physically no people there and

14 the area was razed to the ground. There was no way a meeting could have

15 been held there.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Take a look at this, Sejmenovic, and you say that you see two

19 solutions: Insignia or no insignia. Who is going to protect you if you

20 surrender your weapons? Many people would get killed. If we choose to

21 procrastinate, [In English] "We have to make all possible effort. I am

22 against the idea that people are left unprotected. I would rather we

23 tried to defend ourselves."

24 [Interpretation] That's what you said; right?

25 A. Of course and that's what I think to this day. I want to have

Page 20598

1 the people protected, any people from anyone.

2 Q. Is it correct that on the 22nd of May Aziz Aliskovic and 11 other

3 territorials - let us call them that if you refer that - fired at

4 reservists, four Croats and two Serbs, who were passing there in a car

5 and they killed two and seriously wounded two others and lightly wounded

6 two others?

7 A. The fact remains that there was this incident at Hambarine. It

8 is a fact that the Serb authorities interpreted this in one way and the

9 non-Serb population living there had a completely different

10 interpretation. Now, it is not for me to say on the basis of what the

11 truth can be established. I just know that there was this big power on

12 one side. Also I know that your paramilitaries passed through these

13 areas, that they were firing all the time, and this looks like a scenario

14 of starting a conflict.

15 Q. Oh, yes, yes, they killed themselves, didn't they?

16 A. No, but they used shells to destroy an entire hill that was

17 populated by hundreds of people.

18 Q. Was there a call for the surrender of the killers? Wasn't that

19 the ultimatum or requirement?

20 A. I don't know the details. I repeat once again, I was in

21 Trnopolje at the time. It was only on the following day that I could see

22 large parts of the hill, Rakovcani, Rizvanovici, Hambarine, Bircan, on

23 fire and I saw the artillery firing at them.

24 Q. Thank you.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

Page 20599

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. You see Suljo making conciliatory proposals, saying if it's the

3 problem of the flag it's not really a problem, it's important to have

4 guarantees of peace. And then Suljo says down here if they do not hand

5 over their weapons, they will be considered to be a paramilitary. So it

6 is clear to Suljo that if they do not hand over their weapons they will

7 be considered paramilitaries.

8 A. See, now you know what Suljo understands on the basis of this and

9 I don't. And I attended the meetings and I knew what the atmosphere was.

10 So, Your Honours, we are either going to observe the chronology involved

11 or we are going to point out that we are not doing that. Beforehand we

12 spoke about the period of the attack and then, yet again, I have this

13 document placed in front of me that is a document from before that attack

14 when attempts were being made in Banja Luka and Prijedor to safe-guard

15 the population. In the future I kindly ask that we observe the

16 chronology involved or perhaps it should be pointed out that we are

17 moving backwards rather than proceed in this way.

18 Q. Now we see that it says the 6th of May, not the 6th of June, so

19 it's a different meeting?

20 A. No, it's a same meeting, the same handwriting, the same person

21 taking the minutes, it's probably the same document, I don't know,

22 consisting of several pages.

23 Q. Next one, see, 6th of May. And [In English] This should be

24 accepted and added to the statement. I am particularly glad to see that

25 the Serbs agree with the inclusion of these villages in the civil

Page 20600

1 municipality of Kozarac."

2 [Interpretation] So Serbs agreed that all Muslim-populated

3 locations should be linked to the Muslim municipality in administrative

4 terms?

5 A. That's not true. Five days later they never mentioned any

6 municipality whatsoever. They issued a purely military ultimatum. The

7 president of the SDS was there with us at this meeting. Beco was

8 pleading with them and asking for any kind of peaceful solution and that

9 was resolutely rejected and what we had before us was an ultimatum.

10 Q. Thank you.

11 A. Allow me to finish. This was only four or five days before this

12 meeting. There was not a single incident that occurred between this

13 meeting and the meeting when this ultimatum was issued to us, and this is

14 a fact and, Your Honours, and I'm telling you all of this because it is a

15 fact.

16 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The speakers will have to

17 slow down.

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, just a second.

19 Very well. Please continue. Put a pause.

20 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, excuse me, but in -- it seems to me

21 in terms of any issue about the dates of the meeting, apart from the fact

22 that they appear to go -- be entered chronologically, it seems --

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I noted --

24 MR. TIEGER: [Overlapping speakers]...

25 JUDGE KWON: 6th of May appeared, 6th of June appeared, and then

Page 20601

1 6th of May appeared again and after which we see the 8th of May.

2 MR. TIEGER: Right, and we also see in the text of the meeting

3 that's headed 6 June a reference to a dead-line of May 8th and --

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that's clear in the [overlapping speakers] --

5 MR. TIEGER: Right.

6 JUDGE KWON: -- witness's evidence.

7 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. This is what the gentleman says Mr. Husein.

10 [In English] [As read] "We must not say that we are founding a

11 temporary municipality because someone will betray us. They will not

12 accept that and will prevent us from doing it. One of the options is to

13 set up a municipality consisting of five MZ," local communities. "If the

14 negotiations result in the decision that Prijedor should be part of a

15 Serbian area, we will accept that but we will not live at gunpoint."

16 [Interpretation] And then you also knew that Alija Izetbegovic

17 could sign a document stating that Prijedor will remain in the Serb

18 canton?

19 A. How did you jump to Alija Izetbegovic all of a sudden from

20 Kozarac? This is a meeting that was held only four or five days before

21 the meeting with the SDS. We had intended and wished to talk to the SDS

22 in terms of how the problems could be resolved, but the SDS that held all

23 power in their hands then refused any kind of discussion. They were only

24 issuing an ultimatum.

25 Q. We'll get to that. Take it slowly. Let us see what this Beco

Page 20602

1 says. He wants a municipality of Kozarac.

2 A. There was no voting there.

3 Q. He says, "My own vote goes to" -- [In English] "My own vote goes

4 to a municipality of Kozarac."

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page now. Let

6 us see the conclusion.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. [As read] "Conclusion. [In English] A civil municipality of

9 Kozarac should be set up. It would be temporary in nature and all MZ,"

10 local communities, "should be able to join if they should so wish.

11 "The Kamicani and Trnopolje" local communities "would rather not

12 take a position until the local community assemblies have their say."

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, don't you see that this is being done very

16 seriously and that five local communes and Kozarac as the sixth one could

17 have been a big Muslim municipality?

18 A. You said, "Do you see that serious work is being done on that"?

19 No, I do not see any kind of serious work being done on that. What we

20 see from the minutes is that this is being discussed. It's one thing if

21 you are discussing something and it is a completely different matter if

22 we are actually working on something.

23 Q. Thank you. I read the conclusion, sir, the conclusion.

24 A. Where does it say that? Let me read it myself.

25 Q. The previous page, conclusion. [In English] [As read]

Page 20603

1 "Conclusion: A civil municipality of Kozarac should be set up. It would

2 be temporary in nature and all local communities should be able to join

3 it if they should so wish."

4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Third paragraph --

6 JUDGE KWON: Let's show the B/C/S version to the witness.

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's right there, it's written

8 there.

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where, where?

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Above the date on the left-hand side, above the date, the 8th of

12 May.

13 A. I see, ah-ha, conclusion. Is this what you mean, to raise

14 readiness as much as possible?

15 Q. No, I have something different in English.

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, previous page.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Jasim Fazlic, Sejmenovic, see, you're speaking here.

19 JUDGE KWON: Previous page, go back.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot see this. Where are these

21 conclusions stating that a municipality should be established? Of course

22 that was not done and no concrete work started on that. However, I would

23 be interested in seeing where it is that the gentleman sees that written

24 here.

25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 20604

1 Q. Here it is, conclusion, to establish a civic municipality of

2 Kozarac which would be of a temporary nature and all other local communes

3 that wish could be asked to join them. And then the Kamicani and

4 Trnopolje local communes would not take a position until the assemblies

5 have their say, the commission for negotiations would be Kemo Fazlic,

6 Ilkan Memic, and Dusko Tadic?

7 A. This has nothing to do with the municipality. This negotiation

8 has nothing to do with the municipality. Some of the attendees of this

9 meeting obviously stated their intention to have a municipality

10 established, but not a single step was taken in that direction, not a

11 single step whatsoever. Your Honours, you will all agree that the

12 establishment of a municipality is a long-term and demanding project.

13 Q. Thank you, but you, sir, were the one who procrastinated;

14 correct?

15 A. And you, sir, simultaneously with other representatives of the

16 authorities were getting closer to a reported resolution at the

17 international level and those of us on the ground who were fearing for

18 our lives were waiting and listening to the radio and watching our TVs

19 and waiting for the news so that we could allow ourselves a hope that

20 everything would be resolved peacefully and that we would live normally

21 as we used to. The negotiations at the international level were ongoing

22 and of course our big hope --

23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, just a second. I wanted to make sure

24 that we are on the correct page in the B/C/S.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour, yes.

Page 20605

1 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Jasim Fazlic and after his response

3 follows the conclusion, z-a-k-l-j-u-c-a-k. It's rather illegible but one

4 can see it anyway. Can we please see the 8th of May? That means moving

5 forward a few pages. Can we also find the Serbian version. Yes.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Bosnian version.

7 JUDGE KWON: I saw 7th of May but where do we see 7th of May in

8 English?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I haven't found it in translation.

10 No, the meetings were held on a daily basis.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. Right, Mr. Sejmenovic?

13 A. I did not attend them on a daily basis. I attended perhaps two

14 or three of these meetings, so I am somewhat competent to talk about the

15 ones I did attend. As for the ones I didn't attend, I can give you my

16 opinion on the basis of the context and my experience.

17 Q. Thank you. On the 8th you did attend; right?

18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you have to finish in three or four

19 minutes.

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have to note with regret that I

21 cannot consider this witness as having been examined in

22 cross-examination. We are talking about his words here, the whole

23 activities that are taking to war.

24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, please, please, let me not repeat what

25 I said earlier. It's totally unacceptable. Finish in five minutes.

Page 20606

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Mr. Sejmenovic, you were present so can we please show the

3 following page in Serbian to Mr. Sejmenovic. Please have a look at what

4 Husein M. says here. It says:

5 [As read] "If after Lisbon the Prijedor municipality should find

6 itself in Krajina, not one of us will be against it. We'll go and in the

7 end we'll sign. [In English] There is no reason for them to fight for

8 it's because Izetbegovic may put his signature to a Serbian canton."

9 [Interpretation] A bit further down:

10 [In English] "We will accept the decision made in Lisbon ...

11 there is no threat of genocide to anyone here. Try to arrange a meeting

12 at any cost with Zupljanin and Radic."

13 [Interpretation] And then you say:

14 "[In English] Some regions will be resolved by agreement. There

15 will be an ..." [Interpretation] Now it's hard to read. Maybe you can

16 help us. At the bottom here it says "some regions will ..."

17 A. "... will be resolved by agreement."

18 Q. By agreement.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the following

20 page in Serbian. And in English did we get it in Serbian? Can we please

21 see the next page in English as well.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. Can you please read what you said after this. "We shall not

24 surrender our weapons" --

25 A. That's the last sentence. "There are no guarantees to the people

Page 20607

1 from their authorities," and that was the truth. We did opt for

2 negotiations and new resolutions, but a few days later you prevented that

3 with cannons and tanks.

4 Q. And it says here in the conclusion that tonight alert something

5 and then I see here in English it's only translated that on Monday they

6 would go to Banja Luka to have a meeting with representatives of Krajina;

7 correct?

8 A. Yes, because with you, with the SDS in Prijedor, it was not

9 possible to talk any longer. So we had some hopes that your

10 representatives in the Bosnian Krajina, that is to say in Banja Luka,

11 would be more rational, would listen to us and come and see for

12 themselves that we did not pose any threat and then we could go from

13 there and try to seek a solution.

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the following two

15 pages in English. One page further, please.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

17 Q. Do you see that Nagib says:

18 [In English] "Has a municipality been formally established in

19 Ljubija?

20 "No, but a police station has."

21 [Interpretation] Do you know that Cehajic moved to the left bank

22 and began working on establishing a municipality in Ljubija and that the

23 police station there was taken over, as you can see from this?

24 A. Your Honours, in that Ljubija it was not possible to establish a

25 municipality. This is a hypothetical question which borders or is

Page 20608

1 contrary to reality.

2 Q. Sir --

3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

4 Yes, Mr. Tieger.

5 MR. TIEGER: I was just noticing that of course the English and

6 B/C/S pages don't respond -- do not correspond, so the witness -- if our

7 attention is being drawn to something in the English, then I presume it

8 should be on screen available to the witness.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It would be the following page in

11 English -- rather, the following page in Serbian. That's citation of

12 what Nagib said.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. After all these negotiations and political activities,

15 Mr. Sejmenovic, what followed was Hambarine and the killing of soldiers

16 in a car. And then what followed after that were other killings. Do you

17 know that a Serbian policeman was killed from behind and then his

18 relative killed four Muslims as an act of revenge? Are you familiar of

19 these incidents?

20 A. I think that you interpret these facts without proper arguments

21 because it was never established what exactly this was that happened down

22 there. The non-Serbs were accused of a man fleeing to a Muslim-populated

23 village after he killed this policeman and that the village was hiding

24 the killer. That was what one could hear in public.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please have this document

Page 20609

1 admitted and can we see another document.

2 THE INTERPRETER: Can the accused please repeat the number of the

3 document.

4 JUDGE KWON: This should be your last question, Mr. Karadzic.

5 While we admit this but if the parties, Mr. Robinson and the Prosecution,

6 could take a look into the order of this, the way it is compiled or

7 filed. I see some uncertain parts in terms of order.

8 Yes, this will be admitted as Exhibit D1831. And, Mr. Karadzic,

9 your last question.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D4593, please. I believe that

11 there is a translation but let me read it.

12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13 Q. [As read] "The situation is difficult. The lines are down. In

14 Prijedor yesterday a reserve policeman of Serb ethnicity was killed from

15 behind. Immediately after that a relative of the deceased killed four

16 Muslims. The 3rd of May 1992."

17 Was that the atmosphere in Prijedor, Mr. Sejmenovic?

18 A. Sir, on the 3rd of May, 1992, all lines were in the hands of the

19 Serbian authorities, the military and the police. Non-Serbs, the

20 Bosniaks, did not have any lines, so how could they cut down your lines

21 if they didn't have their own? I don't know who Milos is or why Milos

22 wrote this, to whom he sent it, to whom did this paper arrive from. I'm

23 talking about the facts concerning the 3rd of May, 1992.

24 Q. That was about yesterday, the 2nd of May, the previous day. Was

25 a Serbian policeman killed on the 2nd of May and then on the third of May

Page 20610

1 or immediately on the 2nd of May, his relative killed four Muslims

2 probably from behind?

3 A. I heard this piece of news on the radio but I heard an

4 interpretation of the Serbian authorities.

5 Q. Thank you. And was a curfew imposed after this?

6 A. I heard that curfew had been imposed. I'm not sure if it was

7 imposed before or after this because after the 30th of April I did not go

8 to Prijedor any longer so I cannot personally say what was the date on

9 which the curfew was imposed.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please just one more

11 question, political in nature, because Mr. Sejmenovic was a deputy.

12 JUDGE KWON: Very well, one question.

13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

14 Q. I will now tell you about a thesis that there were two authentic

15 Muslim proposals and that we accepted both. The first proposal was the

16 one coming from Mr. Izetbegovic, who was the first to mention and propose

17 a division of Bosnia, that Bosnia should be independent, divided into

18 three units. The other proposal came from Mr. Zulfikarpasic, that Bosnia

19 should be unitary but that it should remain within Yugoslavia, and the

20 Serbs accepted both. Silajdzic came out with a combination: Bosnia

21 independent but unitary. That was something that we did not accept; is

22 that correct or not?

23 A. These are just excerpts from events which are a speculation of

24 yours at the moment. Throughout this time only you who had proposals or

25 received proposals had power that you could use, extremely mighty power,

Page 20611

1 and from this position with the power behind your back you offered, you

2 accepted certain options or not.

3 Q. Did we accept that Bosnia should be independent with three units

4 or that it should remain within Yugoslavia but be unitary and that we

5 should give up on regionalisation?

6 A. I don't know the details of your consultations and negotiations.

7 I know officially what happened in general terms at some conferences, but

8 I'm not fully competent to discuss that level of issues and problems.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. Thank you

10 for allowing me to ask this question.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that the question was

13 not -- just a second.

14 JUDGE KWON: What do you think about admitting 1D4593?

15 MR. TIEGER: Well, again, that depends to some extent on

16 previous -- there's a smallish, thin, basis on the -- that is, I

17 understand the question is asked because the answer of the witness does

18 not necessarily give rise to admission. I appreciate that this may

19 therefore be tendered by way of challenging the witness. That depends on

20 the nature of the document. Since these documents have been admitted in

21 the past in the court there have been several of these documents admitted

22 and the Court decided it is going to assess -- allocate whatever weight

23 it deems fit, it seems, I guess, to fall within the context of those

24 earlier decisions.

25 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber considers there's some basis among the

Page 20612

1 witness's evidence upon which we can admit this. This will be marked for

2 identification.

3 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D1832, Your Honours.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

5 Do you have re-examination, Mr. Tieger?

6 MR. TIEGER: It depends, actually, on the position taken by the

7 Defence in connection with the one item I have in mind. At page 14 the

8 Court and the Defence will recall there was a discussion about a document

9 and the issue arose about which census it was connected with, the

10 document related to the 1990 election and then finally the witness

11 pointed out that in his view it related to an earlier census. If there's

12 no objection to the admission of 00242E out of the book on the census

13 regarding Prijedor, then I won't have to put it to the witness. If

14 Defence wants me to do so, I can go through the formalities.

15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I'm going to defer to Dr. Karadzic on that.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, the essence is that the

18 witness accepted that it wasn't 20 years but rather nine years, so that

19 happened in 1981, the census was conducted then, it was in 1981. So if

20 there is any dispute about that -- I'm trying to see what the point is.

21 I believe that --

22 MR. TIEGER: Fine, apparently there's no agreement on that so let

23 me just call up, in that case, 00242E and ask that it be shown to the

24 witness. And if we could just highlight the numbers up above the

25 graphic.