Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 23448

 1                           Tuesday, 24 January 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Unless there are matters to

 6     be raised before we begin today, there's one matter.  I'd like to issue a

 7     ruling in private session.  Before that -- before that, yes,

 8     Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning,

10     everyone.  Mr. President, we would like to ask that we take a break after

11     the direct examination of the first witness because Dr. Karadzic received

12     some materials late yesterday and some were delivered yesterday after the

13     close of business that he hasn't yet received, and he'd like a chance to

14     review those before beginning his cross-examination.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

16             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Good morning,

17     Your Honours.  Mr. President, I just spoke to the witness this morning

18     and I think that would probably be very good for her as well.  She's not

19     feeling well and she asked me if she could have a break after the direct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  How much time-frame do we have in mind in speaking

21     about the break?  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  I think our normal 30-minute break would be

23     enough.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Will that suit the witness, Ms. West, as

25     well?

Page 23449

 1             MS. WEST:  I would suspect it would be so, but I think probably

 2     we could see at the end of the direct.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4             Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

 5                           [Private session]

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18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Now the Chamber will issue a ruling on the

20     admissibility of Exhibit D2003, which was marked for identification for

21     the time being.  Judge Baird will deliver the Chamber's ruling.

22             JUDGE BAIRD:  During the cross-examination of the witness

23     Paul Groenewegen, the Defence applied to have admitted into evidence

24     pages 1 and 3 of a Zagreb newspaper article.  The article was entitled:

25     "A Single Shot and the Muslim Hits the Ground," and the two pages in

Page 23451

 1     question included an interview that the witness had given to the

 2     journalist.

 3             Ms. West objected to the admission of those two pages on the

 4     ground that the witness had testified that he had not used the exact

 5     words that appeared in the article.  His words had been completely

 6     distorted.  As a result, the reliability of the article would be called

 7     into question because there would have been no certainty that what it

 8     conveyed would have been the truth.  She contended that although the

 9     witness had testified that incident had occurred, it had not occurred in

10     the way it was depicted in the article.  The documents would therefore be

11     unreliable unless the journalist came and testified that that was exactly

12     what the witness had said.

13             Mr. Robinson submitted that the witness had acknowledged that he

14     had spoken with the reporter about the topics covered by the article.  It

15     will be a matter of weight, therefore, whether what she had reported was

16     exactly what the witness had said or had been distorted in any way.

17             The Chamber considered the arguments of both sides in light of

18     the evidence before the Chamber.  The Chamber will now give a compendium

19     of that evidence, pages 22988 to 22991 of the transcript.

20             The accused referred the witness to the article and he quoted

21     what was attributed to the witness by that article at page 3:

22             "From our observation posts, we saw with night-vision equipment

23     the Muslims leave the enclave mainly to smuggle stuff but also to fight.

24     The next day they talked tough about how they cut the Chetniks' throats.

25     These guys were stiff with cocaine.  I recognised that, coming from

Page 23452

 1     Rotterdam."

 2             The accused then asked him what he could have told us about that.

 3     It seemed that they had night vision, that they were able to observe

 4     nightly excursions of Muslims into Serb territory, and he had heard them

 5     brag how they had slipped the Chetniks' throats.

 6             The witness gave an answer in double aspect.  He first agreed

 7     with the accused, stating, "You are entirely right ..."  These words are

 8     emphasised, and the emphasis is mine.  He then went on to add that he had

 9     not used those exact words.  His words had been distorted.  He was then

10     referred to the alleged incident also mentioned in the report concerning

11     the alleged execution of a Muslim soldier by a Serb at page 1, and the

12     accused asked him whether he had really told her that or whether she had

13     made it up.  He replied, "Well, of course it is not true that she made

14     it -- she made it up ..." Again, these words are emphasised, and the

15     emphasis is mine.  He then ended by stating that as for it having been

16     conveyed in those words, he could not have confirmed.

17             It must be stated that the witness did testify that he did not

18     remember the name of the journalist and that she was reporting from

19     Zagreb, but he certainly had the newspaper report before him and he was

20     in a position to read it, and to all appearances he had, in fact, read

21     it.

22             In answer to the President, he testified that what he told the

23     journalist in respect of the alleged incident that he saw at his

24     observation post corresponded with what he had stated earlier.  Also,

25     information about the alleged smuggling and the alleged attack from

Page 23453

 1     within to outside the enclave reached them, but he never used the terms

 2     reflected in the newspaper.  The journalist changed his statement about

 3     what they had heard into their actually seeing it.

 4             Now, the witness gave evidence that he had not seen the article

 5     in a Dutch newspaper, but the article in the Dutch newspaper did not form

 6     part of the subject of the application for admission.  It will not,

 7     therefore, be treated.

 8             As the Chamber addressed the evidence, the Chamber was sensible

 9     of the fact that at no juncture did the witness dispute that he had given

10     an interview to the journalist and that he had discussed the subject

11     matter of the reports contained in those two pages in that interview.

12     Further, at no stage did the witness repudiate either -- repudiate the

13     report at its core.  I emphasise these words, "at its core."  In other

14     words, he did not challenge the report when he spoke of the alleged

15     nocturnal excursions by the Muslims and their subsequent vaunting.

16     Neither did he controvert the report when it described the alleged

17     killings of the Muslim by -- of the Muslim soldier by the Serb.

18             As it appears to me -- actually, to the Chamber, the difficulty

19     and concern of the witness resided in the language with which the

20     journalist had clothed the core features -- I emphasise these words - of

21     both those reports.  That was the fulcrum of his complaint.

22             En passant, it is instructive to note that at a later stage in

23     his evidence, the witness gave further approval in retrospect of one of

24     the reports in its essence.  At page 22996 he was referred to an

25     interview given by Sergeant Batalona in another publication where

Page 23454

 1     Sergeant Batalona had commented on the excursions of Muslim fighters and

 2     the slaughter of Serbs.  The accused then asked him whether this

 3     conformed to what he had told the journalist.  He replied that a certain

 4     similarity was perceptible but he claimed that he had -- he had been told

 5     those facts.

 6             In the evidential climate existing at page 22988 to 22991,

 7     however, the Chamber is disinclined to accept the contention that

 8     admissibility of these two pages could only be achieved through the

 9     journalist who would be in a position to say exactly what the witness had

10     said.  The Chamber is of the opinion that a proper foundation for the

11     admission of the two pages was intrinsic in the evidence of the witness.

12     Accordingly, the need for evidence of the journalist would have been

13     obviated.

14             At the end of the day, when all the evidence in the case has been

15     received, should we get to that point, then it would be a matter for the

16     Chamber to decide what weight it would apportion those two pages.

17             The Chamber will therefore grant the application and admit the

18     two pages into evidence.

19             This is a majority decision, Judge Kwon dissenting.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Judge Baird.

21             Shall we bring in the next witness.  Ms. West, please call your

22     next witness.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  The Prosecution calls

24     Mirsada Malagic.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I take it that you're not tendering any 92 ter

Page 23455

 1     associated exhibits.

 2             MS. WEST:  There are none, Your Honour, and as you know, this was

 3     a 92 bis witness that was converted.  I was going to ask her a few

 4     questions about the Krstic testimony.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes.  We admitted several associated

 6     exhibits in that decision, yes.

 7                           [The witness entered court]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, madam.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Will you take the solemn declaration, please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Madam Malagic.  Please make yourself

14     comfortable.  Thank you.

15             Ms. West.

16                           WITNESS:  MIRSADA MALAGIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18                           Examination by Ms. West:

19        Q.   Good morning, ma'am.

20        A.   Good morning.

21        Q.   What is your name?

22        A.   Mirsada Malagic.

23        Q.   And where do you live now?

24        A.   Right now I live in Vogosca.  That's a municipality that belongs

25     to Sarajevo.

Page 23456

 1        Q.   Ma'am, can you confirm that you had an opportunity to listen to

 2     your testimony in the Krstic case and that testimony accurately reflected

 3     what you told the Court?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And if you were asked about the same issues here in court, would

 6     you provide the same information?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, the Krstic testimony, as we said, is

 9     already admitted.  It's P00356.  There are no associated exhibits.  There

10     had been one outstanding associated exhibit but that has already been

11     admitted through another witness.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             MS. WEST:  I'm going to read a short summary.

14             The witness was born in Potocari in 1959.  In 1992, she lived in

15     a small village on the Drina River near Bratunac.  She lived there with

16     her husband and three sons.  She was forced out of her village in

17     May 1992.  Between 1992 and 1995, she lived in a number of villages and

18     also in Srebrenica with her immediate family and a number of other

19     extended family members.  During that time, she and her family suffered

20     from the deprivations inflicted on the refugees living in the enclave.

21     In particular, there was never enough food to satisfy the needs of the

22     overcrowded city.

23             The witness left for Potocari on July 11th, 1995.  Her husband

24     and two eldest sons and brother decided to reach Tuzla by foot through

25     the woods for fear of what would happen to them at the hands of the

Page 23457

 1     Bosnian Serbs.  Before she left, the witness was injured by shrapnel from

 2     Serb shelling of the enclave.  The walk to Potocari was difficult for the

 3     refugees as they faced constant shelling.  The witness was also pregnant

 4     at the time.

 5             When she arrived at Potocari with her youngest son and

 6     father-in-law, the enclave was -- the compound was already full.  She

 7     found refuge at a factory and remained there until she left Potocari.

 8     During the evening of the 12th, she saw many men being taken away and

 9     heard screams coming from the houses behind the Zinc factory.

10             On the 13th, she, her son, and her father-in-law were making

11     their way to the buses to be evacuated.  Her father-in-law was separated

12     by the BSA.  She saw him taken to the yard of the white house where he

13     dropped his bag before proceeding towards the house.  The witness and her

14     youngest son were evacuated.  She never saw her husband or her two other

15     sons again.

16        Q.   Ma'am, I understand that you don't feel entirely well, and if you

17     need a break, please let us know, but I want to let you know that after I

18     ask you questions, there will then be a break.

19             Ma'am, where were you born?

20        A.   I was born on the 10th of January, 1959, in Potocari, the

21     municipality of Srebrenica.

22        Q.   And in April 1992, where did you live?

23        A.   In April of 1992, I lived in the village of Voljavica,

24     3 kilometres away from Bratunac.  It is right by the Drina River.  That's

25     where we had our family house and a farm.  I lived there with my husband

Page 23458

 1     and my children, that is to say, my three sons.

 2        Q.   And at some point in May were you told to leave your home?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Who told you to leave your home?

 5        A.   Well, on the 11th of May, the representatives of the Serb people

 6     came.  That's how they introduced themselves.  They were from Pobrdje.

 7     Pobrdje was between Voljevci and Srebrenica, and it was the same local

 8     commune that Voljevci was.  They addressed our people and they said that

 9     we had to leave Voljavica, that we could no longer live there, and before

10     that, that we were supposed to come to the local commune in Pobrdje and

11     sign a statement to the effect that we are voluntary leaving our homes

12     and property and that we would never return there again.  Then they would

13     evacuate us towards Kladanj by bus because, as they explained it, they

14     could no longer protect us from their paramilitaries.  Arkan's men,

15     Seselj's men and other paramilitaries.  They did not go into all of that.

16     They said that they could no longer guarantee our safety and security and

17     that's why we had to leave.

18        Q.   As result of that information what did you do?

19        A.   Well, me, my husband and the children, my husband's father and

20     mother and other relatives, as well most of the inhabitants of the

21     village, we decided not to sign any paper to that effect and that we

22     would not surrender and wouldn't come out onto the streets as they

23     demanded so that they would transport us.  We simply decided to leave our

24     homes and head for the woods -- or, rather, head for the villages in the

25     direction of Srebrenica.

Page 23459

 1             On the evening of the 12th of May, given that we hadn't

 2     slept in our homes for the previous twenty or so days, I had gone to

 3     my house in early evening to get some clothes and perhaps some covers in

 4     order to be able to shelter our kids in case it was cold, and we had no

 5     idea how and where we would get to in the end, whether we would be able

 6     to get to any village or not.  No one really knew that.

 7             On that one night, we headed from the village around 8.00, and we

 8     arrived after several hours at the first village called Bojici.  It was a

 9     small village, a hamlet.  There was already a large group of people there

10     who had gathered there.  Now, as it was dark, we didn't know which way to

11     go further because we didn't know the roads there, and then a local man

12     suggested that he lead us so we would go towards Brezovica, because we

13     were surrounded on all sides by these Serb villages and places where they

14     had already erected their barricades while we were still at our homes.

15     And so at 1.30 a.m., we continued on our journey.  All the people who

16     remained and who decided to leave at 3.30, because that had been our

17     agreement earlier that evening, they didn't make it.  They didn't have

18     the time.  We did manage to get to Brezovica, whereas the others had been

19     attacked.  They were surrounded by the Serb soldiers.  Whether they were

20     soldiers, reservists, or whatnot, but they were dressed.  And they took

21     them to the road from where they evacuated them.  I don't know what they

22     did after that with the men.  Some of them were killed.  I don't know

23     what was the fate of the others, but I reached Brezovica and I stayed

24     there with my in-laws and my husband and my sons.  There were a lot of

25     local people from my village there.

Page 23460

 1        Q.   Now we know that you stayed there for about 15 days, but

 2     ultimately did you reach Srebrenica?

 3        A.   Yes.  But we couldn't remain there because there was nearby a

 4     Serb village, and they explained to us that because of us they, too,

 5     would have to leave their village, that they were not safe there on our

 6     account.  So we decided not to create any problems for them so we decided

 7     to leave for Srebrenica.  We traveled in the direction of Skenderovici

 8     village and then we had to pass by the village of Spat, Sasa.  All these

 9     villages were in forests, in woodlands.  There was also a road there, but

10     we didn't dare take the road because we could be seen, so we felt that it

11     was safer to go through the woods, that that was safer, and we would

12     reach Srebrenica.

13             After some eight hours or so of walking with the children, we

14     arrived close to Srebrenica, in Kula Grad, and then we went to

15     Srebrenica, to downtown Srebrenica itself.

16        Q.   When you entered the downtown area, what did you see?

17        A.   In downtown Srebrenica and on the way there, it was a disaster.

18     That's the only way I can describe the -- what I saw in Srebrenica on

19     that day.

20             It was very smelly.  There was the stench of burning.  All the

21     houses had been burnt.  You would just encounter a stray dog or so.  We

22     saw a few people.  They had already begun to organise some sort of

23     civilian protection.  I don't know what to call it.  But anyway, we saw

24     some people as we came to the downtown area itself, and these people

25     tried to organise some kind of welcome for the people who were arriving

Page 23461

 1     from all the surrounding villages.

 2             For me, that was a more difficult day than the day when I left my

 3     home.  Perhaps you'll ask me why, but it's hard to describe.  I felt

 4     miserable, and in fact, I realised then in the -- in that town itself

 5     what was in store for us.  This was my town.  I spent my entire working

 6     life or career there.  It was -- the city was deserted.  It was sad.  I

 7     saw that we had now we found ourselves in a vicious circle out of which

 8     there was no way, and I was wondering what was to come next.  There was

 9     nowhere to go.  The tears just started flowing from my eyes.  I couldn't

10     stop it.  People asked me why I was crying.  I couldn't say.  It was

11     really terrible.  Srebrenica was disastrous.  Everything was so

12     difficult, so sad, so miserable, and as I said, you could smell -- there

13     was the stench of burning.  All the houses had been torched.

14        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  I just want to clarify --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, Ms. West.

16             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

17        Q.   I just want to clarify a piece of information that you mentioned

18     earlier.  You had said on May 12th you had left your village where you

19     had your home, but you also said you hadn't slept in your homes anyways

20     for some period of days before.  Was that ten days before or 20 days

21     before?

22        A.   Well, after the 17th or 18th of April, I'm not sure, but from

23     that time on -- onwards, we didn't really sleep in our homes anymore.

24     Many things were happening at the time.  I can't tell you exactly dates,

25     but at this time many people were taken away.  We were in our homes.

Page 23462

 1     There were barricades at Pobrdje.  In Bjelovac, which was a small place

 2     above our village, there were barricades.  The mine was occupied, if I

 3     can put it that way.  It was -- there were people of Serb ethnicity all

 4     over there.  We were simply prisoners in our own village.  We couldn't go

 5     to Bratunac anymore.  We had nowhere to go.

 6             They would pass by in their cars looking for prominent people.

 7     These were usually educated people who had degrees, and then they would

 8     take them away.  There were murders.  For instance, one night, outside my

 9     home, a car stopped from the direction of Bratunac.  Some young men - I

10     assumed that they were trying to escape - were shot at, and on the next

11     day when we returned, across from our house, in Rifeta Malagic's yard, we

12     saw two young men, two dead bodies.  Our elders buried them --

13        Q.   Thank you, Ms. Malagic.  We now want to focus on the period of

14     time starting in June 1992 when you first arrived in Srebrenica.  For

15     those first six to seven months when you arrived, did you live in

16     Potocari, close to Srebrenica, with your brother?

17        A.   Yes.  I stayed in Srebrenica just a few days, because my younger

18     son -- or, rather, the middle son fell ill.  He had a high fever.  We

19     didn't know what to do, because there were no hospitals or medical care,

20     as you know.  So we stayed in an apartment which was not far from where I

21     used to work, and then we went to our house.  Everything was tumbled.  We

22     found some medicines.  We found some alcohol, took that with us.  That

23     took -- that took about a week, and then I found out that my brothers

24     were still alive, that they were in Potocari.  So then we headed for

25     Potocari, where we arrived in June.  They had a family home there so we

Page 23463

 1     went to that house.

 2        Q.   And we know that you stayed there for about six or seven months

 3     and ultimately left.  What made you leave Potocari?

 4        A.   For those seven months that we spent in Potocari, it was

 5     difficult.  It was disastrous, in fact.  You were happy every single day

 6     that you were still alive.  Every single day there was shelling.  You

 7     would go to get some water and you would be shelled.  They were so close

 8     that they could actually see you with the bare eye -- with the naked eye.

 9     They were in positions very close by.  They could see whatever was

10     happening in Potocari.  So we had difficulty.  Nothing was functioning

11     anymore.

12        Q.   Did something happened to your brother's house that made you

13     leave?

14        A.   Yes.  Yes.  Many shells actually fell on my brother's house, but

15     they were smaller calibre shells.  So we moved from room to room.  We

16     ended up in the garage of the house, trying to find shelter from the

17     shells.  Until one day somebody said it was a guided missile.  The house

18     was hit, and fortunately on that day, my brother, my husband and my elder

19     son were away.  They had gone to Zepa to try and get some food, and by

20     some lucky coincidence I was next door.  I wasn't in the house itself.  I

21     heard a large explosion.  Everything was trembling and shaking.  And then

22     when the smoke dissipated, we saw that the house was no more.  It was

23     razed to the ground, and it was impossible to live there anymore.

24        Q.   Now, you just --

25        A.   That was the reason --

Page 23464

 1        Q.   You just mentioned food.  Can you describe for us the food

 2     situation in Srebrenica and Potocari during the winter of 1992/1993?

 3        A.   Well, those of us who had left our homes in May, we were -- we

 4     had food shortages from day one.  There was nothing to eat.  So my

 5     husband and my elder son and a few other young men had to try and go back

 6     to our house in Voljavica through the woods, risking their lives to see

 7     if they could find something to eat.  The agony continued in Potocari.

 8     There was this huge number of people coming down from Bjelavica and other

 9     areas and tried to get the food that was left behind in the barns and so

10     on.  There was some corn left there and some grain and so on.  So that is

11     how we managed to actually feed ourselves.

12             However, it went on like that until the first snow fell.  When

13     the snow fell in 1992, then it became really critical.  There was nothing

14     to get from anywhere else.  There was no food.  All of the barns had been

15     emptied by that time, because in Srebrenica there were a lot of people

16     who had come from Zepa and the Han Pijesak municipality.  They were all

17     there.  So that food was getting scarcer and scarcer.  And if we had

18     something to trade we would in order to get food, but even those people

19     who were from Srebrenica itself, toward the end of December and January,

20     they, too, had been left without any food.  So our villages from the

21     Drina valley area were now hungry.  There was famine.  In January,

22     February, there was barely anything.  Then we would go from home to home

23     and -- well, we started begging practically.  We had to feed our

24     children.  The men, my husband and my older son, my brother, they would

25     venture out and walk kilometres, tens of kilometres to find something,

Page 23465

 1     but sometimes they would return without finding anything and they would

 2     come back home hungry.

 3             I tried to obtain whatever I could from people I knew, from

 4     friends.  They would help.  And I would mostly use that food to feed the

 5     kids.  And it wasn't really even enough to -- to feed them.  It was just

 6     survival.  It was --

 7        Q.   Thank you, ma'am.  And as a result of giving the food to the

 8     children, was there much left for you?

 9        A.   No.  I never even thought about myself.  I always -- my first

10     thoughts were always for the kids.  I would always give them the food

11     first, and then if there was nothing left after they ate, then there was

12     nothing that I would eat.

13        Q.   In January of 1993, did you become ill?  And did you speak --

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   -- to a doctor?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   What did he tell you?

18        A.   Well, there was a doctor in Srebrenica.  He happened to remain in

19     Srebrenica because he had a father and mother there.  He didn't want to

20     leave them, but he was a doctor from the centre for -- a medical centre,

21     and my husband went to see him.  I could barely walk.  I -- they took me

22     there.  They helped me there.  And when he examined me, he asked me,

23     "Mirsada, what can I give you?  You are hungry.  You're malnourished, and

24     you need food.  You don't need medicines.  The only thing that I -- that

25     you need now would be food, because no medication that I have would help

Page 23466

 1     you.  If you can manage at least a cup of coffee every day to raise your

 2     blood pressure," which was at that time -- "which is so low, that way you

 3     could survive."  So he proposed, he said that there was some kind of

 4     vitamin cocktail injection.  He said that they would give this injection

 5     to me intravenously and try to pull me back from the dead, as it were.

 6     And so every day I was given these shots.  He had a lot of difficulty to

 7     find a vein where he could actually administer the injection, because my

 8     body was -- my tissue was dying out.

 9             So after five injections that I received every morning - I think

10     this was the 7th or 8th of January - at 9.00 in the morning I received a

11     shot and then later that day we were bombed.  The aeroplanes bombed the

12     village and this doctor was killed.  This only doctor that was left there

13     was killed.

14        Q.   Ma'am, in regard to his comments about coffee, what did you do?

15        A.   Yes.  Well, I told the people in the house about this.  Now,

16     in -- this house was full of refugees.  There were families in each room,

17     different families, and one of the people there told me that there was a

18     woman who had shop and who had some stores of food that she had earlier

19     buried somewhere and that I should go and talk to her, that she had

20     coffee, and I went and asked her, and she asked for gold.  I gave her

21     what I had, a handful of jewellery or something, and I asked this man to

22     go and see if he could get something from this woman.

23             This man went with my gold.  This woman then in exchange sent

24     some coffee, 100 grams of coffee and a little bit of sugar to use with

25     the coffee, and she also sent a litre of juice, fruit juice.  Blueberry

Page 23467

 1     juice.

 2        Q.   What did you do with the juice?

 3        A.   Well, this juice, you know, if you're starving and your kids had

 4     not seen any kind of juice for months, I just could not drink the juice.

 5     I made coffee for myself, and as for the kids, I made some juice with --

 6     for them.  And for a few days they could use this bottle of juice, mix it

 7     with water and then use it for a couple of days.

 8             Now, on the next day, my youngest son, Adnan, came to me and

 9     said, "Mummy, are you hurting?"  And I said, "No, my son.  Why are you

10     asking?"  And he said, "Well -- [No interpretation].

11             JUDGE KWON:  Ma'am, just a second.  I don't think we're getting

12     any interpretation.  Could you repeat your answer starting with those

13     words that you said to your son, "Why are you asking?"  And start from

14     there, please.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I asked him, "Why are you

16     asking, son?"  He said, "Well, shall I make a glass of juice for you with

17     water?"  And then I said that he should go on and do it because he knew

18     that I couldn't drink this up, that I wouldn't, that he would drink it

19     up.  And then when he did prepare it for me, then I told him to drink it

20     up myself because I just didn't have the heart to do it while he would

21     just watch me drinking this juice.  He was eight years old.

22             It was difficult.  I'll never forget those days of my life ever.

23     It is true that people died of starvation, because there was nothing

24     anymore that you could find under this snow cover.  You were lucky if you

25     survived from one day to the next.

Page 23468

 1             MS. WEST:

 2        Q.   I'd like to talk to you now about the international food convoys

 3     during those years and the food that was brought in.  Can you tell us in

 4     1993 whether Srebrenica received food from any international groups?

 5        A.   In the first months of 1993, very early on there was an

 6     operation.  There were parachutes.  There were air-lifts, as it were, and

 7     then there were convoys, and in February, sometime in February 1993, in

 8     Srebrenica, I can't really recall because we were so weak, you know,

 9     nothing functioned.  We had no calendars, no watches.  Nothing really

10     worked.  But I know when the air-lift began, when they started dropping

11     this food from aeroplanes, that people managed to survive on those

12     rations, and the food was distributed every day.  And we were assisted

13     significantly by the refugees from Konjevic Polje because they had some

14     food with them.

15             I exchanged -- I had some -- I had nothing to exchange, so then

16     they just lent me some food.  They gave me some flour and some other

17     foodstuffs, and I made some kind of bread or cake or something of that

18     sort.

19        Q.   Let's move to 1994.  Can you describe the amount of food that

20     came into Srebrenica during that year.

21        A.   Well, when the convoys began arriving in Srebrenica, very early

22     on, there was a lot of food arriving.  It was relatively sufficient.  You

23     would get 1 to 2 kilos of flour per family, per family member, some sugar

24     which was measured in grams, some oil, cooking oil.  So early on, at the

25     very start, there was enough.  We didn't have enough salt or sugar.  That

Page 23469

 1     was always measured in grams.  You would get one of the jar lid -- jar

 2     lids of -- of sugar or salt, that was it.  Sometimes there was rice, but

 3     then we would have no salt to use it with the rice.  So that's how it

 4     went on.  But we had flour, so the people who had already suffered so

 5     much were happy to have bread at least.

 6             Now, in 1994, everything was tilled in Srebrenica, every inch of

 7     the ground, because people tried to sow as much as they could to survive.

 8     I started going to Potocari, where I started a vegetable garden, because

 9     we received some seeds from the humanitarian aid organisations.  We got

10     some carrot seeds and other seeds, so we planted that.

11             Now, in 1994, in the first half and up until the fall, the

12     situation was bearable as far as food was concerned.  There was no

13     shooting -- not as much shooting, so it was possible to work the land.

14        Q.   So what happened --

15        A.   So there was some food.

16        Q.   What happened in the winter of 1995 and the spring of 1995?  What

17     was the food situation then?

18        A.   Well, already that winter the amounts of food diminished, and the

19     convoys did not arrive that often anymore, and when they did, they

20     brought a lot less food.  For instance, in the beginning there were would

21     be 13, 14 trucks of humanitarian aid, and later on the number of trucks

22     was halved.  There would be five or six.

23             I tried when the trucks unloaded at the former department store

24     in Srebrenica.  A truck would come and you would think that a lot of

25     humanitarian aid had arrived, but when they lift the tarpaulin, you would

Page 23470

 1     see just one line of sacks, flour and salt trampled with soldiers' boots.

 2     That means that somebody had walked over them and taken a lot, because

 3     the trucks had not set off towards Srebrenica half empty.  That means

 4     that the humanitarian aid was unloaded first somewhere else.  And it was

 5     just for the sake of appearances that something was left at all, that the

 6     world would see or be given to see that some trucks had arrived in

 7     Srebrenica.

 8             And that very winter we started our trips looking for food again.

 9     We went mainly towards Zepa.  My brothers, my husband went to Zepa

10     because I had a sister there, and she and her family had a bit more food.

11     I don't know how.  And she let us know that we could come and she would

12     give us some flour.

13             My eldest son went on those journeys, too, and we tried to

14     stretch whatever food we had for as long as we could so that we would

15     have at least one meal a day, which was not very often.

16        Q.   Now, we're going to start talking about July of 1995, but before

17     we do, can you first describe for us the number of people who were

18     crowded into Srebrenica in June and July of 1995?

19        A.   Well, in July 1995, in fact towards the end of June and the

20     beginning of July, I don't know how many people there were exactly, but

21     it was a huge mass of people on a small area.  The figure that I heard -

22     I don't know if its true - was 40.000 people over 50 square kilometres.

23     In every room in every flat there was one family.  Every house was full,

24     every garage, every shed.  Every schoolhouse with improvised classrooms

25     were used to put up these refugees, people who had nowhere else to go --

Page 23471

 1        Q.   So after -- pardon me for interrupting.  But after the attack

 2     began on the 6th of July, did more people come to the town of Srebrenica?

 3        A.   Yes.  After that, even the refugees who had earlier been in

 4     Zeleni Jadar started going down towards Srebrenica.  There were little

 5     wooden houses there housing a lot of people, perhaps up to 3.000.  And

 6     when the shelling started, when the first UNPROFOR observation post, I

 7     think it was called the Ljubisevic [phoen], near Zeleni Jadar, was

 8     attacked those people started retreating towards the town itself, towards

 9     Srebrenica.  They did not feel safe up there anymore because the Serb

10     forces were advancing and these people started going towards Srebrenica.

11        Q.   And when the shelling began in earnest on the first day,

12     July 6th, where were you when you first heard it?

13        A.   On that day I was going from Potocari to Srebrenica and I was

14     halfway when I heard the first shells exploding.  The detonations could

15     be heard in Srebrenica.  When I heard them, my legs buckled.  I don't

16     know how I managed to reach Srebrenica.  It was so horrible after that

17     lull, after that relatively quiet spell.

18             I saw again the images of chaos, shelling, killing, and I don't

19     know how my legs carried me to Srebrenica where I went to see what was

20     going on because my husband and children were trying to do something

21     around our garden.

22        Q.   And in the course of the 6th, the 7th, the 8th, did the shelling

23     continue at the same pace?  Did it increase?  Did it decrease?

24        A.   During those days the shelling continued.  As I explained

25     earlier, Srebrenica was packed.  There were so many people.  Every shell

Page 23472

 1     found its target.  It did not have to be precise, because it simply

 2     couldn't miss.  It just had to hit Srebrenica and it would kill somebody.

 3     People were lining up for water.  Some were working their vegetable

 4     gardens.  The hospital was full again because people were getting killed

 5     and wounded.  You were nowhere safe anymore.

 6        Q.   During those days, did you see any wounded people or any dead

 7     people on the streets?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.  One of those days a woman physician by the name of

 9     Fatima, I don't know her last name, was wounded when she was walking from

10     the hospital to her apartment in our building.  Also close to our house

11     my husband's uncle was seriously wounded when a shell fell into his

12     garden.  And there were many other people who were injured while queueing

13     for water, because you needed water for the bathroom, because we had to

14     keep up our hygiene.  We had no water for the toilet.  There were only

15     improvised toilets outside.  And the children had to venture outside

16     frequently because they had to get firewood as we had no electricity for

17     a long time, and the woods around Srebrenica were already all used up and

18     you had to go further and further to get firewood.

19             All the way up to the 10th of July, the hospital was already

20     completely full.  That speaks eloquently about how many people were

21     wounded and how many were in danger.

22        Q.   Let's talk now about the evening of the 10th of July.  On that

23     evening, did you have a meeting, a family meeting with all the members of

24     your immediate family and extended family?

25        A.   Yes.  In fact, that afternoon, around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m., I'm not

Page 23473

 1     sure, a huge column of people started moving towards the UNPROFOR base on

 2     the 10th of July, and we left the town too.  We were told we should go

 3     towards the UNPROFOR compound several kilometres away from [Realtime

 4     transcript read in error "Vienna"] Srebrenica in the direction of

 5     Potocari, and I with my children headed there to see what to do next, but

 6     when we got to the gate, there was again a huge mass of people, and we

 7     were told to return.  UNPROFOR soldiers told us to go back to our homes,

 8     that we were safe, that they would protect us from the Serb forces, that

 9     we need not panic --

10        Q.   Let's just stop there for a moment.  When you talk about this

11     UNPROFOR compound, are you speaking about the one that's closer to

12     Srebrenica, or are you speaking about the one that's further away in

13     Potocari?

14        A.   The one that's closer to Srebrenica.

15        Q.   Okay.  And that evening, what was the discussion that you had

16     with your family?

17        A.   We had all returned to our apartments where we were housed, but a

18     lot of people were coming in from Zeleni Jadar and the area of Srebrenica

19     called Ucina Basta.  Everybody was fleeing closer to the UN force.  Every

20     building, every entranceway was full of people.  The women had brought

21     some flour to be able to make bread, at least for the children.

22             At any rate, that night nobody slept.  My husband, his brothers,

23     his parents, myself, did not know exactly what was going on, but we were

24     talking and we made a decision, a decision for ourselves, as many others

25     probably did, that I, my youngest son and my father-in-law should go to

Page 23474

 1     the UNPROFOR compound if the Serb soldiers occupied the town whereas the

 2     rest of them would go through the woods towards Tuzla.  They did not

 3     trust the Serb forces to treat them well if they are captured.  They

 4     thought that the Serbs would not do any harm to the women and children

 5     but that they should try to get to the free territory through the woods,

 6     and that's how the night passed.

 7        Q.   Did you want to leave Srebrenica?

 8        A.   Well, things being what they were during those days, everybody

 9     wanted not to leave Srebrenica for the sake of leaving but because they

10     felt unsafe because of the chaos that reigned, because of their fear from

11     the Serb forces that were advancing, and they had already taken one

12     check-point held by the UNPROFOR.  Other UN observation posts were not

13     safe either.  The circle around the town was getting tighter and tighter,

14     and the Serb troops were closer and closer.  And out of fear, everyone

15     wanted to leave that night because they did not feel safe anymore.  They

16     feared for their lives.

17        Q.   We're going to move to the next day to --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just one second.  I wonder whether you can scroll

19     back the transcript.  Line 20 of the previous page, this is what is

20     reflected in the transcript:

21              "We were told we should go towards the UNPROFOR compound several

22     kilometres away from Vienna in the direction of Potocari."  I take Vienna

23     to be Srebrenica.  Is it correct, ma'am?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.  Srebrenica, correct.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Ms. West.

Page 23475

 1             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 2        Q.   So let's move to July 11th, in the morning hours, after you and

 3     your family have left the apartment.  To where did you go?

 4        A.   My family and I and everyone else who lived in that building and

 5     in the buildings around us, everybody headed towards Potocari, the

 6     UNPROFOR compound.  And we didn't know where we would go on next.  Maybe

 7     Potocari, but for that moment we were going towards the UNPROFOR

 8     compound.

 9        Q.   At some point before you started going to Potocari, were you

10     separated from your husband, your brothers, and your two oldest sons?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Where --

13        A.   In peacetime it used to be a petrol station just before the gates

14     of the UNPROFOR compound.  We reached that point when we saw a doctor

15     going down the street, through the crowd, and asking the young men to

16     return, some of them, to the hospital to put the wounded on the trucks

17     because the hospital was full of wounded people.  At that moment, shells

18     started falling into the crowd, and it was a huge mass of people with

19     many children there.  The children started screaming.  There was complete

20     chaos.  Nobody could control it anymore.  And as we had agreed earlier,

21     my father-in-law, my youngest son and myself headed towards the UNPROFOR

22     compound, whereas my brothers, my husband, my eldest son, and the son of

23     my in-laws headed left of the petrol station towards Susnjari.  We didn't

24     even have time to say good-bye.  We just followed our earlier agreement,

25     and we didn't even say good-bye.

Page 23476

 1             When we got to about 50 metres away from the UNPROFOR compound,

 2     the shells were still falling.  And in that chaos, nobody knew where

 3     anybody else was.  People were falling from the explosions, from the

 4     shrapnel, some from fear.  The heat was insufferable.  Some people were

 5     just fainting right outside the gate of the UNPROFOR compound.

 6        Q.   Did you yourself suffer an injury?

 7        A.   One shell fell across the wire fence that surrounded the

 8     compound, and one shell fell opposite us on a hard surface, on concrete.

 9     All of us fell to the ground.  That's how close we were.  I thought my

10     son and my father-in-law were killed because nobody was getting up for

11     the longest time.  And after a while, those who were not injured started

12     getting on their feet.

13             My son was so pale, white as a sheet, and he looked terrible, as

14     did my father-in-law, but they were not injured.  I myself was.  I was

15     wounded in my right shoulder blade, and I was bleeding.  My son got very

16     frightened at the sight of blood.  And I took my kerchief off my head.  I

17     was wearing it to protect myself from the sun, and perhaps that kerchief

18     saved my life at the time, because there was a lot of shrapnel in the

19     black -- in the back of my kerchief, and a lot of shrapnel got caught in

20     that kerchief and in the jumper I was wearing.  The shrapnel that got to

21     my shoulder blade was stopped by the top of my jumper and remained there.

22             The wound itself was an entry and exit wound.  There was no

23     embedded shrapnel in me.

24             And when the shelling stopped, chaos continued.  People were

25     going in and out of the UNPROFOR compound.  They didn't know what to do.

Page 23477

 1     Nobody knew what was going on.  It was complete chaos.  Crying,

 2     screaming, panic, commotion.  It's very hard to describe what was going.

 3        Q.   Ma'am, at some --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West.

 5             MS. WEST:  Sorry.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could you clarify with the witness which UN compound

 7     we are talking about.

 8             MS. WEST:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   When you speak of this compound, is this the compound near

10     Srebrenica, Bravo Company, or is this the compound in Potocari?

11        A.   The one closer to Srebrenica still.

12        Q.   At some point thereafter did the crowd begin to move towards the

13     UN compound in Potocari?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And -- and the distance between the Bravo Company UN compound

16     Srebrenica and the Potocari compound, it's about 4 kilometres; is that

17     right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Did you move along with the crowd?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Why did you leave?  Why did you move to Potocari?

22        A.   Well, after staying for several hours in that UNPROFOR compound

23     and in the street, we heard the sound of aeroplanes at some point, and

24     the soldiers of UNPROFOR, who were on an APC, were unable to communicate

25     with us.  We didn't understand each other, but they motioned towards the

Page 23478

 1     sky, the aeroplanes, and we understood that these planes would be bombing

 2     Serb positions around.  And they also showed us that we should go to

 3     Potocari, all of us.  And the mass of people obeyed.  Some people started

 4     first and, as it goes with large crowds, others followed, and that's how

 5     we all took the real asphalt road that leads to Potocari.

 6        Q.   Ma'am, as you walked, as we understand it was with your younger

 7     son and your father-in-law with you, did you carry any bags?

 8        A.   No, because when I got wounded, I did not feel my right arm

 9     anymore.  I was unable to carry my bag.  My priority was my son.  I held

10     his hand with my left hand, and I forgot about the bag.  I left it where

11     it was.

12        Q.   Can you describe what happened on this 4 kilometre walk as you

13     went to the compound.

14        A.   Yes.  In the beginning of our journey from the base, at the very

15     outset when we were still hearing those planes I mentioned, close to the

16     football pitch by the compound we could still hear the planes, but they

17     were farther and farther as we walked.  They must have been close to

18     Zalazje.  I know that area.  We heard several explosions and continued on

19     our way.

20             In the beginning it was a disorganised crowd, but in a while a

21     column formed, because of course people walked at a different pace.  They

22     were elderly people and children who couldn't walk fast, and the women

23     had to stay with the children.

24             At any rate, a column formed over a stretch of the road, and the

25     shells were falling all the time on both sides of the road.  I can't say

Page 23479

 1     they were hitting the road itself and the crowd, at least not where I

 2     was, but they were falling close to the road on both sides.

 3             Some people were wounded not so seriously.  They were able to go

 4     on walking.  A few people were killed.  But really, believe me when I say

 5     that nobody was able to carry or help anyone else.  You were only

 6     concerned about getting out of there alive.  You didn't know whether you

 7     yourself would make it to Potocari.

 8             A woman got killed close to me.  She was just covered with a

 9     blanket and left by the side of the road.  There was nobody around me

10     that I knew at the time, only my youngest son and my father-in-law.  And

11     we went on for about a kilometre and a half outside Potocari when two

12     UNPROFOR trucks caught up with us.  The trucks were traveling slowly, so

13     they could see everything very well, and they couldn't drive fast through

14     the crowd.  But the people made way for the trucks, so they were able to

15     go faster than the people.  And the tarpaulins of the trucks were torn.

16     So I saw my eldest son and a friend of his on one of the trucks.  This

17     other boy was my son's close friend in Srebrenica.  I was surprised to

18     see him on that truck, but he saw me, too, and raised his hand in

19     recognition.  And then the trucks drove on.  That was not far from the

20     Potocari UNPROFOR compound.

21        Q.   Let's talk about what happened when you arrived at the Potocari

22     compound.  Were you able to get into -- inside the UN base itself, inside

23     the fence?

24        A.   No.

25        Q.   So where did you go?

Page 23480

 1        A.   Well, on the barricade itself, it wasn't really a barricade.  We

 2     called it that.  That was a band that was put up there by the UNPROFOR

 3     soldiers.

 4             They had an interpreter there who explained to us that we who

 5     were arriving could not stay at the base that was already brimming with

 6     people.  There was no room for anybody else.  So we should look for a

 7     place elsewhere.  There was a complex of factories there.  There was the

 8     factory of the 11th of March where I worked just before the war, then the

 9     transport company, the Feros company and so on.  So these areas in front

10     of the factories were where people had to stay because as they were

11     arriving they had nowhere else to go.

12        Q.   Were you able to get inside one of the factories?

13        A.   Well, again with my son and my father-in-law, I managed to get

14     back to one of the factories.  At that first gate I managed to get in.

15     My son was very frightened.  I was wounded, and I thought somehow that

16     we'd be safer if we were indoors.  How do I explain this?  Although that

17     room did not have any windows or anything.  These were former offices.

18             When I got in there were other women and children there, elderly

19     men, then other women who were without children.  They were standing

20     within the compound of that factory.

21             It was important at least to find shelter for the children so

22     that they would not spend that night out in the open.  So I spent the

23     night there with my son.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, I'm noting the time.  How much longer

25     would you need?  Shall we take a break now.

Page 23481

 1             MS. WEST:  I think that would be an idea, but if I can ask for

 2     the Court's indulgence.  I know this witness would like to have a break

 3     at the end of the direct as well.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  So why don't we take a break now.

 5             MS. WEST:  Okay.  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So, ma'am, we're going to take a break for about

 7     half an hour.  We'll resume probably about five past 11.00.  You now may

 8     be -- you may now be excused.

 9                           [The witness stands down]

10             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime, there's another matter I would like

11     to deal with in private session.

12             Yes, you may be excused, Madam Malagic.

13             Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

14           [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             The Chamber found the site visit to Sarajevo to be invaluable and

17     was greatly assisted by it.  It is therefore considering organising a

18     site visit to locations in Srebrenica.  At this stage, and due to the

19     number of municipalities covered in the indictment and the different

20     nature of allegations in relation thereto, the Chamber is not presently

21     envisaging visiting locations in the municipalities but would like to

22     hear from the parties on this issue as well.

23             As was done with the previous visit, I would therefore ask that

24     parties file submissions addressing the following matters:

25             1) whether a visit to the municipalities covered in the

Page 23482

 1     indictment would be beneficial;

 2             2) to identify the proposed locations to be included in the site

 3     visit and a preliminary itinerary of the same;

 4             3) to identify the participants in the visit; and,

 5             4) any other relevant matters.

 6             The Chamber asks that these submissions be filed confidentially

 7     no later than Tuesday, 31st of January, 2012.

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Page 23483

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21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're now in open session.

23             JUDGE KWON:  After this break would the Defence need another

24     break after the conclusion of her testimony in chief?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

Page 23484

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll take a break for half an hour and

 2     resume at 10 past 11.00.

 3                           --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.

 4                           --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.

 5                           [The witness takes the stand]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West, please continue.

 7             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 8        Q.   Ma'am, when, we stopped earlier, we were discussing the fact that

 9     you and your son went into one of the factories on the 11th.  When you

10     were inside the factory, where was your father-in-law?

11        A.   Well, my father-in-law was within the same factory compound

12     except that he was outside the factory.  Actually, we were divided by

13     this window that wasn't really there.  There wasn't any glass or

14     anything.  It was on the ground floor.  We could communicate except for

15     the fact that we were indoors and he was outside within the factory

16     compound.

17        Q.   And this is during the day of July 11th.  Can you tell us whether

18     anything noteworthy happened during the night of July 11th while you were

19     in the factory?

20        A.   Well, that night of the 11th of July while we were in the factory

21     was peaceful.  We can put it that way.  There were short bursts of

22     gunfire that could be heard somewhere around us, but it wasn't really

23     within the compound where I was.

24             In the early evening shells fell, but not into Potocari.  But -

25     how do I put this? - above Djogazi, the village of Djogazi, below Caus,

Page 23485

 1     at the location of Likari where the separation lines were basically,

 2     where UNPROFOR used to be stationed.  At any rate, that is where shelling

 3     was heard from, and that is the only thing that was memorable as far as

 4     the early evening of the 11th of July is concerned, but the night itself

 5     was peaceful until the morning.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Let's move to the next morning, so that would be the

 7     morning of July 12th.  During that morning and into the afternoon, did

 8     you see any Bosnian Serb soldiers mingling with the crowds?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And what were they doing?

11        A.   Well, at first in the morning, I don't know exactly when, it was

12     9.00 or 10.00, I think, from the direction of Djogazi and Peciste, this

13     other village up there, that is what I could see.  I mean, that's the

14     first time I saw these Serb soldiers because old houses were on fire,

15     haystacks and some straw as well as some sheaves of wheat.  They were

16     getting closer and closer to the centre of Potocari itself.  After that

17     they were firing again.  This was celebratory gunfire.  We knew that

18     these were Serb soldiers as they were getting closer to us, and then they

19     started mingling with the people.  At the moment -- or, rather, at the

20     compound where I was, they were walking around.  They were asking people

21     where our soldiers were, where our houses were, where our children were,

22     where our sons were, questions like that.  What we decided to do now.  Do

23     we know what lay in store for us.  One soldier said quite literally to me

24     and a woman who was next to me -- actually he walked into this room, he

25     was a neighbour of hers and they knew each other well, he said, Go to

Page 23486

 1     Tuzla.  You will be evacuated probably in the direction of Tuzla, and be

 2     sure that you're going to see a scenario like this one over there soon

 3     too.

 4             So, in the morning hours and around midday, they were walking

 5     around asking people questions.  At that point in time they didn't really

 6     touch anyone, if you will, until the afternoon.  In the afternoon they

 7     started taking groups of men out.  They were questioning them.  They were

 8     taking them out to these houses that were behind factory.  There were

 9     private houses there, too, and also there was a cornfield.  There was a

10     metal plaque there.  It was taken from the fence.  And before that, on

11     the 11th of July, we went to get water from there.  There were toilets

12     there.  We took children to the toilet and so on.

13             However, on the 12th of July, in the afternoon, I went out there

14     again to take my son to the toilet, and I was worried.  I was deep in my

15     own thoughts, and I didn't really look carefully, and as I got to that

16     fence, perhaps only a few metres away, I saw soldiers all of a sudden who

17     stood there in the area that we were passing by.  These soldiers did not

18     say anything to me.  One of them simply waved his hand, showing me that I

19     should move away.  Only Serb soldiers were there who were in uniform for

20     the most part.  There weren't any of our people there in these houses.

21     Of course, they would not allow people to pass by those houses.

22             I went back to where I had set out from, and I didn't go there

23     again.

24             So during that entire early evening they were taking groups of

25     men out, and they were being questioned.  That's what I could see in

Page 23487

 1     front of the compound.  Efendic was questioned, for instance, Hamed.  And

 2     then he was take away.  And then Salihovic Ahmo.  He was also taken out.

 3     And then the son of a colleague of mine was taken out.  She brought him

 4     to Potocari.  He was questioned twice, and the third time they took him

 5     out he was never returned again.  For the most part, these people who

 6     they took out were never returned, these people who were taken out

 7     towards these houses out of these masses of people, but they were never

 8     returned again.  That is when that night fell too.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

10     microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking.  Thank

11     you.

12             MS. WEST:

13        Q.   Ma'am, on that evening did you sleep?

14        A.   No.  No.  There was no chance of sleep that night.  I hadn't

15     slept the previous night either.  I just sat there, and that night as

16     well.

17        Q.   Now, by the morning of the 13th, the following day, what was your

18     state of mind?  What did you want to do?  Did you want to stay or leave?

19        A.   Well, after surviving that kind of night in Potocari, I, and I

20     think all others, wanted to get to this UNPROFOR barricade, as we called

21     it a moment ago, to enter that area and to be evacuated as we had been

22     promised earlier on.  The promise was that everybody would be evacuated.

23             I was informed in the early evening of the 12th that the first

24     buses or trucks, I'm not sure, had already taken some people -- or,

25     rather, women.  First women with babies.  That is what they said.  And

Page 23488

 1     then all of us all of a sudden wanted to leave and to get to these buses

 2     as soon as possible, these trucks, to leave this compound, this chaotic

 3     situation that we were in with our children.  The temperature was high.

 4     There wasn't any food.  It was very hard for the children.  There was no

 5     milk for the children.  Nothing could keep in that kind of temperature.

 6             Because of this fear during that night, everyone wanted to leave

 7     as soon as possible.  And everyone wanted to leave at the same time.

 8        Q.   So let's talk about your leaving Potocari on the 13th.  At some

 9     point did you, your youngest son, and your father-in-law walk towards the

10     buses?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And once you got past what you called the barricade or the red

13     ribbon did you see the buses?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In which direction were they facing?

16        A.   All the buses and trucks were facing Bratunac.  They were parked

17     facing Bratunac.

18        Q.   As you -- as you approached the buses, was your father-in-law

19     walking next to you?

20        A.   Yes.  But before the buses, as we were walking towards the buses,

21     at that moment, from Bratunac a vehicle arrived.  Perhaps I'm not going

22     to describe it properly, I don't know.  It looked like a jeep to me.  It

23     was open.  It didn't have a roof.  These Serb soldiers were armed, were

24     in that vehicle, and among them there was an old man.  I knew that man.

25     All the other locals knew him too.  My father-in-law knew him in

Page 23489

 1     particular, because they worked together at Sase Srebrenica, the Zinc

 2     mine.  This was Ilija Petrovic.

 3             He was insulting us, cursing us, swearing at us, cursing our

 4     Balija mothers.  He said, "Now go to your Alija, you'll fare a lot

 5     better.  Had you listened to Babo, you would not be living through

 6     everything that you've been living through."  A lot of insults.  At that

 7     time my father-in-law just said to me:  "Now we're certainly done in."

 8     He probably wanted to say that we'd never see each other again.

 9        Q.   What happened to your father-in-law?

10        A.   After that vehicle passed, there were Serb soldiers standing

11     again who were separating men from us women.  Women and children went to

12     the right-hand side towards the buses, to the right of the buses, and all

13     the men were being taken to the left.  That is when they took my

14     father-in-law and also my sister's husband, then other relatives, many

15     relatives who were nearby and who had passed this barricade together with

16     us.  I know all of them.  And for the most part they took them to this

17     white house, as they called it.  However, as we were walking towards the

18     buses, as soon as this bridge was passed - how do I put it? - in the yard

19     they had to discard their bags.  I saw my father-in-law throw away his

20     bag, that's what the orders were, and then they walked towards the house

21     without anything.

22             We went on towards the bus and then we could no longer see from

23     the buses.  Now, whether they went to the house or above the house, what

24     happened to these people after that we could no longer see.

25        Q.   Ma'am, have you ever seen your father-in-law again?

Page 23490

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Did you successfully get on a bus with your son?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Was your sister on the same bus?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Mrs. Malagic, when was the last time you saw your husband, Salko?

 7        A.   Well, as for my husband as well as my children, I last saw them

 8     when we parted in Srebrenica, as I said a moment ago, in front of the

 9     UNPROFOR compound when we went our separate ways.  I never saw them

10     again.

11        Q.   And how old was your husband at the time?

12        A.   Well, 44, I think.  He was 44 years old.  Forty-four, 45 --

13        Q.   Now, at some point --

14        A.   -- almost.

15        Q.   Thank you.  At some point in recent years did you receive notice

16     that his remains had been recovered?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   When did you get that?

19        A.   Sometime in the beginning of June 2009.  2009 I received

20     notification concerning my husband first.  That was somehow just before

21     the funerals.  So I just went there for the identification process, and I

22     had to sign these papers and so on.

23             Four months after that I received another summons from Tuzla to

24     go and identify my younger son, which I did.  So we had these memorial

25     services for both of -- for both my husband and son and they were both

Page 23491

 1     buried at the memorial centre in Potocari.  My father-in-law was buried a

 2     few years before that.  I don't know exactly.  And a week before I

 3     received this information concerning my arrival in The Hague, I was

 4     called from Tuzla.  I was told to come for notification again, that --

 5     namely, that my older son had been found too.  I haven't done that yet.

 6     I decided to take care of this in The Hague first because I didn't know

 7     how would I feel after all of this torment that I would go through in

 8     Tuzla again.  It is not easy to go through that kind of thing there.

 9        Q.   Ma'am, in regard to your middle son Admir, the one you indicated

10     that you had last seen at Srebrenica, how old was he at the time?

11        A.   When Srebrenica fell, he was 15 years old and 5 months.

12        Q.   And the older son that you just mentioned that you very recently

13     received the notification that his remains have been recovered, how old

14     when you -- was he when you saw him for the last time?

15        A.   He was about six years older than this other son.  So my eldest

16     was about 20 years old.  He was five years older, five to six years older

17     than Admir.

18        Q.   And your youngest son, your surviving son, the one who was with

19     you in Potocari, how old was he then when you were in the Potocari

20     compound?

21        A.   He was 10 at the time, turning on 11.

22        Q.   And where does he live now?

23        A.   My son lives in Vogosca now as I do.  We're both renting a place.

24     We're waiting to get more permanent housing.  There's a building that is

25     supposed to be completed.  The construction is supposed to be completed

Page 23492

 1     in June.  And he's married.  He has a son, and they live in Vogosca.

 2        Q.   When Srebrenica was shelled in July 1995 and you made your way to

 3     Potocari, you were pregnant; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   When did you give birth?

 6        A.   My daughter was born on the 21st of January, 1996.  So the other

 7     day she turned 16 while I was here.

 8        Q.   And what was the condition of her health when she was born?

 9        A.   Well, all the problems and all the torment that I went through

10     throughout my pregnancy and the horrors in Srebrenica that we went

11     through left a mark on my daughter so that when she was born, she was not

12     a healthy baby.  We spent a lot of time in hospital in Tuzla.  She also

13     had problems with her hips.  While they were treating one hip, the other

14     hip turned bad and there were complications.  So then we ended up in

15     Sarajevo.  I took her everywhere, seen all the doctors, but she had to

16     undergo surgery so that she had three operations on the right hip.

17             We spent up to three and a half months in hospital, and then it

18     would be followed by six months of rehabilitation, and then on one

19     occasion she was infected.  She -- she got an infection after the

20     surgery, and she barely survived, but thanks to the doctors and my

21     efforts, I managed to save her and bring her up so that she's not a

22     handicapped person today, but she is under constant medical control.  She

23     would undergo physical therapy in the winter and then during the summer

24     vacation she would also have to go to a spa for rehabilitation.  All of

25     this as recommended by the doctors who treated her.

Page 23493

 1             So right now her condition is relatively good.  She attends

 2     school, but she cannot do physical education because she is a handicapped

 3     person in a way, so she has to take these exams, these subjects, she has

 4     to take them theoretically in order to receive a grade.

 5        Q.   And, ma'am, do you still own your home on the Drina River near

 6     Bratunac?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   How often do you go back there?

 9        A.   Well, in the summertime frequently.  Last year I went on many

10     occasions, but I don't go on a regular basis.  Whenever I feel homesick I

11     go there.  And then I go to the memorial centre, and on those occasions I

12     also go to our house.  But one of the reasons why I avoid going there

13     more frequently is that the memories are very painful.  When I walk into

14     the house, it's really painful.

15             I did patch up the house so that I can spend the night there if I

16     need to, a day or two or five, for as long as I can stay there, but I

17     cannot really take it mentally, because when I go there on my own, my

18     entire life I see before my -- me, and then it's really difficult.  So

19     what I do is basically I just go to the house, enter, walk around it and

20     then leave.  It's just difficult.  I can't bear to be there on my own.

21     The memories of my children, my husband, the life that I had before 1992,

22     all of that weighs heavily on me.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Malagic.  I have no further questions.

24             MS. WEST:  And, Mr. President, I wonder if we might inquire

25     whether the witness is feeling okay to continue.

Page 23494

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I'll do that.

 2             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Madam Malagic, your testimony in previous case

 4     which you gave 12 years ago was admitted in lieu of your

 5     examination-in-chief in this case as well, and in addition to further

 6     questions asked by Ms. West, you will now be cross-examined by

 7     Mr. Karadzic, but before that would you like to take a break?  Otherwise,

 8     we'll take break at half past 12.00.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we can wait for the regular

10     break.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  Good

14     morning.  I wish good morning to everyone.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, to you, Ms. Malagic.

17        A.   Good morning.

18        Q.   First of all, I would like to express my solidarity for your loss

19     and the suffering that you went through, and my gratitude for agreeing to

20     see my assistant who interviewed you.  And in view of what you have gone

21     through, I would rather not put any questions to you.  However, your

22     statement is rather broad and there are just several things that I would

23     appreciate it if you could help us to clarify them and get a full

24     picture.  So I do have to put some questions to you.

25             Now, first of all, is it correct that the crisis in your village,

Page 23495

 1     Voljavica, began sometime after the 12th of May?

 2        A.   In my village, even before the 12th of May, the crisis was in --

 3     the crisis was there, but I don't know what happened because I left

 4     Voljavica on the 12th of May already.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  What year are we talking about?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1992.  That is the year that

 8     Ms. West began questioning the witness about.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is it correct that on the 8th of May the Green Berets and the

12     Patriotic League -- or, rather, the Muslim fighters, killed Judge Zekic

13     near Potocari?

14        A.   I cannot answer your question, because at the time I was in

15     Voljavica, and the event that you are describing, according to what

16     people said, was in the area between Potocari and Srebrenica, and at the

17     time I really did not have any information as to what was happening

18     there.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Well, you don't need to have this information, but

20     that's why I'd like to clarify this to have a full picture.

21        A.   One evening, not far from my house we saw a column going from

22     Bratunac, a column of vehicles.  It didn't take very long.  I don't know

23     how much time it took.  And then it went back to Bratunac.  We didn't

24     know what this was all about, but we heard from a man who lived in

25     Pobrdje and whose house was in the vicinity of some houses of Serbs

Page 23496

 1     because there were both Serb and Muslim houses in that village.  So we

 2     heard stories from him that he learned that Zekic was killed there, that

 3     he was in that column, and that he was -- that, in fact, it was him who

 4     was being taken in that column for his funeral.

 5        Q.   I see.  So you saw this funeral convoy, but did you hear that

 6     when he was killed that he was driving in his own private vehicle?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you know -- you mentioned Hranca, Hranca is

 9     the outskirts of Bratunac; is that correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Do you know that the Novi Sad Corps that you mention in your

12     various statements was deployed there as regular JNA forces and that it

13     began its withdrawal towards Yugoslavia?

14        A.   No.  If you allow me to explain this, I know where Hranca is, and

15     I also know that the Novi Sad Corps was stationed in Bratunac at the

16     time, Mr. Karadzic, and at that time, Mr. Karadzic, the work obligation

17     was declared in Bratunac.  My sister-in-law worked in a company there,

18     and for six days she went to work, and she experienced this.  She met

19     these troops, and we heard that they were from the Novi Sad Corps, and I

20     consider, it's my opinion, that up until that time there had never been

21     any troops in Bratunac or in that area overall.  My brother, my husband,

22     my relatives, they all served their military service in Belgrade,

23     Novi Sad, in Serbia and in other parts of the country.  So there were no

24     regular troops in that area up until then.

25             Now, why they had come then, I really don't know.  I don't think

Page 23497

 1     that they were trying to defend us, because had they done that, we

 2     wouldn't have gone through what we did.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  But in your statements you confirmed, didn't you,

 4     that you had been told that the JNA was in Bosnia in order to separate

 5     the fighting Muslims and Serbs; correct?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that these Novi Sad Corps units had

 8     come from Central Bosnia and that they were on their way to Yugoslavia?

 9        A.   I'm not sure of their journey.  I cannot see how Novi Sad Corps

10     could be from Central Bosnia and then be withdrawing towards Yugoslavia

11     and towards Novi Sad.  I cannot really answer that question.  Now, where

12     they had come to Bratunac from, I really don't know, because I was in

13     Voljavica, in my village.  But the first explanation, the first thing

14     that we were told by your own people, by Serbs, was that this was the

15     corps that was allegedly there to keep the peace in Bratunac.  But we

16     weren't even able to go to Bratunac anymore, so what kind of peace they

17     were trying to keep there I really don't know, and I wonder who it is

18     that they were supposed to protect in Bratunac.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Can we just clarify one thing?  Would you agree that

20     the fact that the corps had its headquarters in Novi Sad, that the JNA

21     had as its area of responsibility the entire territory of the former

22     Yugoslavia?  So the Novi Sad Corps would not stay in Novi Sad alone.  It

23     would be deployed as necessary, as required.

24             MS. WEST:  Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

Page 23498

 1             MS. WEST:  This is not the witness for this type of question.

 2     She is a --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I agree, Ms. West.  Let us move on.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I withdraw my question.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you know that in Hranca this convoy that was headed for

 7     Yugoslavia, this convoy was attacked and some soldiers were killed?

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   This was on the 3rd or the 4th of May, and you never heard that

10     there was an attack on a convoy that was moving and that -- that was not

11     in combat deployment?  You didn't hear of that withdrawal?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did Voljavica have their own units or was it

14     demilitarised?

15        A.   Voljavica did not have any units of its own, that's for sure.  I

16     don't know exactly what the date was, but your forces, your

17     representatives from Bratunac, came one day, one morning, and they issued

18     an ultimatum.  They said if anybody had any weapons that they should

19     surrender them, and at their head was a police officer.  He was a police

20     officer in peacetime.  I knew him.  His name was Miladin.  I was really

21     surprised to see him there.  But in any case, he was there with a number

22     of soldiers, and they came to the school, and they said that we should

23     inform everyone that they should surrender their weapons.  And on that

24     day, everyone, all those people who had weapons for which they had

25     permits, they -- they surrendered them.  So that Voljavica did not have a

Page 23499

 1     unit, nor could it defend itself.  It didn't have anything to do it with.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know Ekrem Malagic?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know that he was conferred --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   -- awarded a golden lily posthumously?

 8        A.   No.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Karadzic, please put a pause.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I think the witness answered the

12     question by saying no.  Yes, please continue.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You said that you didn't know that he was posthumously awarded

15     the highest wartime -- well, because the way we form negative sentences

16     and the way it's done in English, because that's different, your answer

17     was no, you didn't know; correct?

18        A.   Yes.  I did not know.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know Osman Malagic?

20        A.   Yes.  He was my brother-in-law.

21        Q.   Did you know that he was a prominent military commander of one of

22     the units of the 28th Division?

23        A.   Well, all I can say is this:  This brother-in-law of mine was

24     killed at the very beginning, early on, and I don't know when he could

25     have become such a great commander.  I don't think he had enough time.

Page 23500

 1     All he had was this big desire, which he did, and he had a group of young

 2     men with him and they were going to their own house on the Drina River.

 3     That's where they were headed.  They didn't have any weapons with them.

 4             Now, if they had any kind of contraptions or anything that was

 5     sort of improvised, I don't know, but I know that he was killed on that

 6     day on his way to his home.

 7        Q.   Osman Malagic was killed on the 12th of June [as interpreted],

 8     1992, wasn't he, and on the 24th of May, 1994, he was awarded this

 9     decoration posthumously?  Did you know that?

10        A.   Well, I didn't know that and I don't think it's correct anyway.

11     I'm sure his wife would know that, because she's here in Holland.

12        Q.   Instead of June it should say the 12th of July.  The month is

13     wrongly recorded in the transcript.

14             Now, did you know Hazim Calagic?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   And you don't know that he was the commander of the

17     Independent Battalion in Voljavica from the 11th of December, 1992,

18     through the 14th of January, 1993?

19        A.   Mr. Karadzic, I've already explained all the trouble and the

20     difficulties that I had at that time, 1992/1993, and all the difficulties

21     that I had to go through together with my family.  So I've already

22     described that.  I didn't know anything about soldiers, and I couldn't

23     really answer your questions about someone being a commander somewhere.

24     I did not have that information, nor am I competent to answer those

25     questions.  I'm not sure.

Page 23501

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I understand that, but it is important for the

 2     Defence to establish on what basis you provided certain information that

 3     had nothing to do with your family, matters that you mention in your

 4     statements that deal with and have to do with the army.  So I'm just

 5     trying to find out what it was that you did know and what you didn't

 6     know.

 7             Now, I will read out the names of the commanders of this

 8     independent battalion.  I will not mention the times when they were

 9     commanders.  Just tell me if you knew them.

10             Did you know Mithat Salihovic?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Did you know Safet Omerovic?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   Zajko Alic?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Muharem Husic?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Fikret Cvrk?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Omerovic Mirzet?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Well, these were commanders and some of them were assistants for

23     morale of the independent Voljavica battalion.  Did you know that the

24     Voljavica Independent Battalion existed and that it was awarded

25     decorations and that it participated in all military operations?

Page 23502

 1        A.   No.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know Hajrudin Malagic?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Did you know that he, too, was a fighter?

 5        A.   Well, how can I describe this to you?  All the people there, not

 6     only Hajrudin Malagic, who was a relative of my husband's, but all these

 7     young men who felt that they were able bodied, in the end they were

 8     forced, they had to try and protect their families when they were

 9     attacked.  When we were under attack, when we were already in Srebrenica,

10     when they had to go searching for food to bring a sack of corn from

11     Voljavica, they went there as some sort of security.  I don't know what

12     to call them.  They were just trying to protect their families, their

13     brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, and so on.  But calling them

14     fighters or an armed unit, I don't think that's proper, and I don't think

15     that's what they was -- that's what they were.  At least not at that time

16     in the beginning of the war.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Hajrudin's father Enes, is he your husband's brother?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   So he was a cousin?

20        A.   Yes.  He was my father -- father's in law cousin.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know Behudin Malagic?

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Orhan's son?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I'm struggling to understand the point

25     of this line of questions.  Please move on to your next topic.

Page 23503

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this family was a

 2     prominent family.  It was a military family, and they made a major

 3     contribution to the fighting, and this is from a chronicle of the

 4     2nd Corps, the -- a chronicle drafted by the Muslim side.  Now, I

 5     understand that this witness may not know everything, but that's what I'm

 6     trying to establish, what it is that she does know what she doesn't know.

 7     So not about what she had gone through with her family, she and her

 8     family.  But she also provided some answers to general questions, and I

 9     just want to establish what it is that she does or doesn't know.

10             JUDGE KWON:  If you'd like, you may put your case to the witness

11     and then move on to your next topic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency, but in that

13     case I -- the Defence will be handicapped, because if the witness is

14     unwilling to co-operate with the Defence, then we cannot really get the

15     right answer.

16             Now, I will move to another topic.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Ms. Malagic, is it correct that the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina

19     began on the 6th of April, and five weeks after that, you left your

20     village?

21        A.   Mr. Karadzic, the war broke out long before I set off from my

22     village.  We, my family and I and almost everyone, we were in Voljavica

23     almost as prisoners.  At the time, I still worked in my company, but the

24     first barricades were set up then, and we couldn't go through them.  We

25     couldn't move further.  There was this disarming, and we were not allowed

Page 23504

 1     to get to Pobrdje.  There were also barricades at Bjelovac, as far as I

 2     know, because I was told -- this was recounted by others.  I never went

 3     there myself.  But a week later - I don't know exactly what date it

 4     was - the work obligation was declared but only for those people who

 5     received the call-ups.  Not everyone received them, and I don't know why

 6     these particular people received these call-up -- these call-ups, because

 7     not everyone did.

 8             So we stayed in our homes.  But before that, as you pointed out,

 9     we could see with our own eyes, and then later we could also hear from

10     others, and I confirm that this was correct thereby, because in Hranca I

11     had a sister-in-law, and there was a sister-in-law and a brother in

12     another village in the area, and they all had already experienced what we

13     didn't in Hranca, not yet -- in Voljavica, not yet, because I know that

14     all the houses were torched in Hranca, that Glogova was burned down

15     completely.  There was no looting, but the barns and stables were torched

16     together with the cattle.  My sister-in-law was outside working on her

17     land when a zolja was thrown into her house.  She managed to pull out her

18     kid from the house and then to withdraw and run away, escape, together

19     with her kid.  So people were already being killed, expelled.  You could

20     see all this glare and the flames in the sky because the thing was -- the

21     village was burning.

22             I was told by another sister-in-law that her house had been

23     torched.  She managed to escape because she was outside of her house.

24             So Hranca was torched.  Glogova was torched.  This was done by

25     your soldiers.  And that's how they came to Bratunac.

Page 23505

 1             On the 10th of May they set on fire the village of Mihajlevici.

 2        Q.   We'll get to that.  Please, in line 16 you said that the MUP, the

 3     police, was disarmed, but that is not in the transcript.  That's on the

 4     previous page, 55.  They were disarmed; right?

 5        A.   I heard it from the policeman who came to our house.  I told you

 6     I don't know the date.  There was this policeman, Muja Husic, who was a

 7     regular policeman in Bratunac.  And also Mirsad.

 8        Q.   All right.  Tell me, is it true that you were told that there are

 9     paramilitaries in Bratunac whom they have to expel and during that time,

10     the time it takes, the civilians must go to the stadium?

11        A.   There were no paramilitaries.  They told us as much.  As far as

12     civilians are concerned, all those villages that were torched,

13     Mihajlevici, Redzici, and others, people from there were taken to the

14     stadium in Bratunac.

15             My sister-in-law told me that they had been taken to Bratunac

16     first and from Bratunac they were taken different ways.  Men were taken

17     to the school in Karadzici and the women and children were evacuated

18     towards Tuzla.  That was happening while we were still in our village

19     Voljavica.

20        Q.   Did you know that there was a Patriotic League in Bratunac?  You

21     can answer yes or no.  I don't mind if it's no.

22        A.   No.

23        Q.   Did you know that people from Bratunac went for illegal training

24     conducted by the MUP of Croatia and your Muslim neighbour complained

25     about that because that was frightening the Serbs?

Page 23506

 1        A.   No, I don't know about that.

 2        Q.   Can you tell us who was killed in Hranca on the occasion and how

 3     many people were killed?

 4        A.   I do not know many of those people by name, and people were

 5     killed.  You can probably hear that and check it with the witnesses from

 6     there.  I know that people were killed, but how many I can't tell.  I

 7     don't know.  The people who did not manage to escape in time were

 8     probably killed in their own houses.  I didn't know those people.  I only

 9     visited occasionally my sister-in-law.

10        Q.   So you can't tell us either the names or the number?

11        A.   No, I can't.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What was the date?  Was it the 3rd or the 4th of May

13     when that column was attacked?

14        A.   I don't know the date when they torched the village of Hranca.

15     I'm not sure about the date.

16        Q.   Thank you.  So after that you went to Srebrenica.  You say that

17     you found Srebrenica empty except for stray dogs, and there was the

18     stench of burning.  Who set Srebrenica on fire and devastated it?

19        A.   Serbs did.  I don't know whether they were soldiers or the

20     inhabitants of Srebrenica.  In any case, it was the Serbs, because they

21     were the only ones in Srebrenica at the time.

22        Q.   What kind of troops did you find in Srebrenica when you arrived?

23        A.   I did not.

24        Q.   And where were the Serb residents?

25        A.   At that time while we were still at home, next door to my house,

Page 23507

 1     and you must know this perfectly well, there was a road through

 2     Srebrenica, Sase, Zalazje and on towards Bratunac.  An enormous number of

 3     trucks and cars was passing by my house and going to Bratunac.  A van

 4     would pass full of soldiers carrying weapons that were trained mostly at

 5     us.  They were also sitting on the bonnets of vehicles.

 6        Q.   Madam, with all due respect we'll get to that.  Now we are in

 7     Srebrenica.  You've just arrived.  It's empty.  There are only stray

 8     dogs.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And traces of fire.  Which army did you find there when you came

11     in?

12        A.   Well, those first people who came down to Srebrenica, the first

13     soldiers, didn't find anybody.  It was empty.  The first people to come

14     had come from the woods where they had retreated earlier.  All the real

15     residents of Srebrenica had already fled, because you know how the others

16     fared, all the Muslim residents, I mean.

17        Q.   You're talking about July 1992; right?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And where were your Serb neighbours?  About 30 per cent of the

20     population of Srebrenica were Serbs; right?  Where were they when you

21     arrived?

22        A.   Well, they had left of their own accord.  I tried to explain this

23     earlier.  All these trucks brought people who looted everything.  Every

24     house was looted.  I knew these people.  They passed by my house.  I

25     don't know where they were going later.  To Serbia, probably.

Page 23508

 1             You didn't let me explain later.  A van full of soldiers would

 2     pass my house on one way, and they would all come back with each in their

 3     own car.  They had Chetnik emblems, insignia, cockades.  Who are these

 4     people?  If they would pass again by my house a few hours later, each in

 5     their own car and all the looted property in those cars.

 6             I suppose that after the killing of Vekic all your Serb residents

 7     left Srebrenica, and Srebrenica was already empty from that time on.

 8        Q.   When you say they were fleeing, I see that in your first

 9     statement from 1995 you said the Serbs had started leaving, and they even

10     carried their own dead to rebury them on the right bank of the

11     Drina River; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In your estimate, that was out of fear; right?

14        A.   I can't say for sure why, but these things did happen.  Only they

15     know why they did it at the time.

16        Q.   If I tell you that Naser Oric - and we have an intercept of his

17     conversation with Mahmut Cehajic - if I tell you that he said that in

18     early June 1992 he cleansed a few Serb villages with his army, he entered

19     Srebrenica and cleansed it, would you accept that from that time until

20     July 1995 Srebrenica was under his control?

21             MS. WEST:  Objection.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, on what -- yes, Ms. West.

23             MS. WEST:  I think it's very difficult for this witness with her

24     experience there to comment on an intercept from Naser Oric.

25             JUDGE KWON:  He -- I was thinking that he was putting his case.

Page 23509

 1     If the witness is able to answer the question, the Chamber is fine with

 2     it.

 3             Yes, Ms. Malagic.  Can you answer the question?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Let's leave the intercept aside.  Is it a fact that from early

 7     June 1995 until July 1995 -- sorry, from early June 1992 until July 1995

 8     Srebrenica was controlled by the Muslim army?

 9        A.   I really don't know how to answer this question.  When you say

10     "the Muslim army," we probably don't define "army" in the same way, so I

11     would be unable to answer questions of that kind.  In my mind, an army is

12     made up of people who are armed, who have logistics, who have support,

13     who have everything.  A couple of rifles, a couple of makeshift weapons,

14     empty-handed, without anything, that's not an army.  That the Muslim army

15     attacked Srebrenica is absurd, as far as I'm concerned.  How could they

16     have been soldiers if they had no weapons?  Those people that we are

17     talking about were able-bodied men but no more than that.  They were

18     unarmed.

19        Q.   But the Serb soldiers and the Serb authorities did not control

20     Srebrenica between early June or even May 1992 until mid-July 1995.  Is

21     that right?

22        A.   I don't know what to say.  Perhaps they did not control it

23     strictly speaking, but in another way they did because they attacked,

24     because they controlled our lives.  We were unable to go out and get

25     food.  We had no electricity.  We had no food.  They controlled all of

Page 23510

 1     that, so how can you say they did not control Srebrenica?  We could do

 2     nothing inside that town.  We were like inside a camp.

 3             What kind of question is that?  There's absolutely no comparison

 4     between these two sides.  One of them was an army; the other one wasn't.

 5        Q.   You said those problems occurred on the 5th or 6th of May, but

 6     until that time you were left in peace, and you even said that this

 7     manager Branko had told you that you were free to work on your land in

 8     Voljavica, and he even provided diesel fuel for you.

 9        A.   He did that together with a neighbour who worked in the

10     cooperative, and since that man, Branko, was the manager of that

11     agricultural cooperative, he himself had a lot of land sown with tobacco.

12     He was given what he needed to -- to plant it.

13        Q.   This man Branko was a Serb who lived in Voljavica?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   In your statement of 1995, you say that your residence captured a

16     man by the name of Dragan and turned him over to somebody.  In fact, it

17     was the brother of this policeman, Dragan, from Pobrdje.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   So they must have been armed; right?

20        A.   You see, our young men, all of our people, stood guard.  It was

21     not a real army.  They stood guard, protecting their families, their

22     children.  And that night, on the Drina River they saw boats carrying

23     something.  So they waited for them on the bank of the Drina River, and

24     in one of the boats there was this policeman you mentioned, and they

25     didn't need anything to get hold of this man who was carrying a load of

Page 23511

 1     weapons on this boat.  They just took the man to the barricade in

 2     Pobrdje, and one of the men on that barricade was this Dragan.  They were

 3     still holding out on these barricades against your authorities.  At least

 4     they thought they would be able to.

 5        Q.   On today's transcript on page 13 and earlier in this statement

 6     you said that you had arrived in this torched Srebrenica and that the

 7     Chetniks attacked Potocari on the 8th of June, and your people had only a

 8     few weapons such as hunting rifles and makeshift utensils but they still

 9     attacked these soldiers with these improvised weapons.

10        A.   That day with whatever they had, they managed somehow, but mainly

11     with their own bodies, because everybody was either killed or seriously

12     wounded on at that day.

13        Q.   Who counted these 2.800 shells that fell on Potocari, Peciste and

14     the surrounding villages?

15        A.   You could hear that.  I don't know.  I know that shelling did not

16     stop for a minute that day, because I was there.  You couldn't go

17     outside.  You had to put a towel across your mouth.  A great number of

18     people was killed, and there were wounded, and then the people carrying

19     the wounded would get injured as well because the shells continued

20     falling.  And they also listened to your radio communications, and from

21     your own information, we know that on that day around 2.800 to

22     3.000 shells fell on Srebrenica.  And the shelling never stopped and it

23     went on from all sides.

24        Q.   Do you know how much one shell costs?  Five soldiers' monthly

25     salaries.  Do you think that Serbs were so generous with shells?

Page 23512

 1        A.   I know that you played your games with them.  I spent five months

 2     in Potocari.  It was horrible.  The shells that fell only on the factory

 3     compounds, on houses.  There was a house right across the river from me.

 4             From the training ground where training took place before the war

 5     to Potocari, all the way shells fell on the road, on every house in

 6     Budak; in Djogazi; in Donji Potocari, where my family also had a house;

 7     in Peciste.  Every house was hit and we were able to see all of that.  A

 8     shell fell on one house this minute and another house the next minute.

 9     You could watch all that.  And you cannot dispute this because thousands

10     of witnesses can tell you about it.  Thousands of shells fell there only

11     while I was there.

12        Q.   We'll come to where they fell and who was killed, but you say in

13     June, Hajrudin Osmanovic was killed.  Did you know these people who got

14     killed?

15        A.   I knew this man Hajrudin, because his brother went to school with

16     me.  We were in the same year.  That's why I knew him.

17        Q.   Whose son was he?

18        A.   The son of Mustafa Osmanovic.  I think his father's name was

19     Mustafa.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know this Smajo Mehmedovic who also got

21     killed?

22        A.   Yes, he was my neighbour from Voljavica and also a relative, the

23     son of Hasan Mehmedovic who worked at the mine.

24        Q.   So Hasan is his father; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 23513

 1        Q.   And this Resko Husic, is he Rasid's son?

 2        A.   I don't know.  I don't know that.

 3        Q.   What about this Husein Mehmedovic, did you know him?

 4        A.   Yes.  He's an elderly man.

 5        Q.   Whose son was he?

 6        A.   I think his father's name was Smajo.  This man got killed,

 7     actually went missing later as he was going to get food in Voljavica.

 8     He's been missing ever since.

 9        Q.   What about Sead Masic?  Did he get killed too?  Whose son was he?

10        A.   Of Dzemal Masic.  He hasn't been accounted for ever since.

11        Q.   Nedzad and Dzemal were his sons; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Did Nedzad lose his life then as well?

14        A.   I don't know.  I don't know.  But at any rate, all of these

15     people were killed.  Their father is also dead.

16        Q.   Tell me, this Saban Omerovic, did you know him?

17        A.   Well, I knew a man, an elderly man by that name, if we mean the

18     same person.

19        Q.   You say that he was killed then.

20        A.   Yes, yes, that's it.

21        Q.   Do you know whose son he was?

22        A.   I don't.  I don't.  He was an old man.  I don't know who his

23     father was.

24        Q.   What about this Huso Mehmedovic?  Is he Husein's son?

25        A.   I don't know.  I don't know who you're talking about.

Page 23514

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just looking at your statement to see who lost

 2     his life.

 3             Now, in your statement you say that your legs were shaking when

 4     the shelling started again, because before that there had been a period

 5     when there was no shelling; is that right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You also said that when the safe haven was

 8     proclaimed, when the UN arrived, a better time came, more peaceful; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   Yes, that's right.

11        Q.   Do you know how many soldiers Oric lost during that period time?

12        A.   No.

13        Q.   Did you know that Oric's soldiers went out to Serb villages every

14     night, killed Serbs and got killed themselves?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I note the time, so I'd like to move on to July 1995.

17     However, perhaps that can wait for the time after the break.

18             Tell me, please, do you know where the Serbs from the surrounding

19     villages were, the villages around Srebrenica?  Did they just stay there

20     during the war?

21        A.   No.  I heard from other people that as far as those who were in

22     Potocari were, where my brothers were, too, their neighbours took them

23     out to Bratunac, to the Yellow Bridge, all of them from Studenac and

24     Cumovici.  As for the rest, I don't know.  I don't know where they were.

25     That was the village that was the closest to us.  There weren't any other

Page 23515

 1     Serb villages there anyway around Potocari, I mean near Potocari.

 2        Q.   Is Studenac a Serb village close to you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And isn't that right that in July in Potocari you heard two

 5     soldiers talking, one of them saying, "Brother," or words to that effect,

 6     "it was so easy to liberate my village."  He was from Studenac, wasn't

 7     he?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So he was not in that village from June 1992 until July 1995;

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I see the time, so

13     it's for you to decide.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll take a break for an hour, after

15     which I expect you to come to the events of July 1995.

16             We'll resume at 1.30, but before doing that, can I hear from you?

17     I think you can make your submission in open session.

18             MS. WEST:  Yes, yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, you had asked about the investigator

21     Tomasz Blaszczyk, and my -- we will have four investigators.  He will be

22     the first, testifying today.  His testimony is going to regard the

23     360 QuickTime presentation of the road between Bratunac and

24     Konjevic Polje.  I will note that before he testifies, the technicians

25     will need 20 minutes to upload the equipment for the presentation.  He

Page 23516

 1     will be followed by Investigator Ruez who will be talking about all the

 2     crime sites.  The other two investigators in the case will testify later

 3     in the case, and that is both Dusan Janc and Dean Manning.  They will be

 4     talking about the forensics and Janc will be specifically talking about

 5     the DNA.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And my question was specifically --

 7             MS. WEST:  And your question --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The content of Mr. Blaszczyk's evidence with respect

 9     to updating and discussing the report of Mr. Dean Manning.

10             MS. WEST:  And that appears to be incorrect.  At this point he is

11     talking about the road between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac, and he will

12     be talking about the Drina Corps collection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope that the Chamber is

17     not going to give me less time than that the -- than the

18     examination-in-chief took.  So I should have all of today and tomorrow as

19     well.  That's according to 92 ter.  The Prosecution spent more than

20     two hours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Are you talking about your cross-examination of

22     Madam Malagic?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, because Blaszczyk has been

24     announced for today.

25             JUDGE KWON:  You waste -- you spent already an hour on the issues

Page 23517

 1     the relevance of which we doubt.  You have exactly a bit more than

 2     half an hour, a bit -- I think you may have 35 minutes after the break.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I --

 4                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I was corrected.  You will have 40 minutes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say a word?  If that is

 7     unimportant, why is the Prosecution asking for information from 1992

 8     through this witness?  What matters to the Prosecution matters to the

 9     Defence as well.

10             Secondly, the Prosecution spent more than two hours, and I am

11     supposed to spend an hour and a half, and I have 92 ter as well.  The

12     entire Krstic transcript.  So could I please be given all of the next

13     session.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at 1.30.

16                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I was advised that the Prosecution

19     spent one hour and 35 minutes, and you will have exactly 45 minutes this

20     session.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency [In English] But

22     usually with 92 ter, the Defence should have more than the Prosecution

23     because I have the whole transcript from Krstic to deal, let alone the

24     examination-in-chief.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber is of the opinion that one

Page 23518

 1     and a half hours is more than sufficient for your cross-examination.

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  I've made this observation before, Dr. Karadzic,

 3     and it's just as true now as it was then:  You should really be

 4     concentrating on the matters which are contained within the indictment.

 5     This isn't an exercise in historical revaluation or an attempt to look at

 6     every fact and determine every fact.  There are obviously facts which go

 7     to the indictment and thus bring into play elements of the law which we

 8     have to apply, and by taking a careful look at the indictment and taking

 9     advice certainly from Mr. Robinson, it's certainly my view, and I suspect

10     the view of my colleagues that you could focus far more accurately on the

11     facts that are important than you often do, and certainly raising matters

12     which are more appropriate to the issue of tu quoque really doesn't help

13     anybody and do not assist in the determination of this indictment.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.  But I have

15     a feeling that what the Prosecution is presenting has a purpose, an

16     objective, and I'll trying to get to the bottom of that, but I'll try to

17     follow your instructions as well.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mrs. Malagic --

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Karadzic, I'm not giving you instructions.

21     I'm giving you advice.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Advice, right.  Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   In the transcript when you testified in General Krstic's trial,

25     on page 1942, you said that your people during the first shelling wanted

Page 23519

 1     to leave Srebrenica because they were afraid that the Serbs would take

 2     revenge; right?

 3        A.   I don't understand this question.

 4        Q.   Well, you see, on that page, 1942, you said -- I'm now going to

 5     read this out in English so that the interpretation is better.

 6             "[In English] We were all on our way to Potocari and on the road

 7     there were very many people there, and when the Serb soldiers began to

 8     shell the town and then they simply wanted to take revenge.  People

 9     didn't know where to turn, where to go."

10             [Interpretation] Was that the assessment, that the Serbs would

11     take revenge?

12        A.   Well, we knew that things didn't look good for us.  As soon as

13     the shelling started -- I mean, we had already experienced that before at

14     the beginning of the war, and we knew as soon as the shelling started,

15     when they started shelling people in town itself, as I've already

16     described, everybody thought that it was better to get out as soon as

17     possible, because of course, if one were to get into their hands, I mean

18     we'd probably end up the way other people did in the beginning of the

19     war.  What else could we expect.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know approximately what it was that the Serbs

21     wanted to take their revenge for?

22        A.   No.  We did not think that they had any major reason for that.

23     In my view, now this is my personal view, if anyone had a reason for

24     revenge, we were such a long-suffering people.  Perhaps we had more

25     reason if, I'm saying if, we were to take revenge on anyone.

Page 23520

 1     Long-suffering, exhausted.  I mean, all the suffering I went through over

 2     those three years.  They really had no reason for that.

 3             Now, what their objectives were, well, we knew that nothing good

 4     would come out of it.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that your father-in-law said, "Ah, now

 6     we're done in," when he saw this acquaintance of his with whom he was not

 7     on very good terms; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So are you trying to say that it was possible for some of these

10     individuals to settle their own accounts and to take revenge for things

11     that happened long ago?

12        A.   Knowing that man, the one that I mentioned - I knew him, too - he

13     was always -- well, how do I put this?  Everything he said was supposed

14     to be some kind of a joke, but there was always this nationalist drift

15     even when he made these jokes, and he had conflicts not only with my

16     father-in-law but also with other people who were ethnic Muslims.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Was he the only person of this kind or were there

18     other people who took advantage of the situation in order to settle their

19     own personal accounts?

20        A.   I don't know.  In Potocari at that point in time I didn't really

21     see any other acquaintances.  I saw Serb soldiers.  I saw ethnic Serbs,

22     but I didn't see people I knew when we crossed this UNPROFOR barricade,

23     and before that there were some who were simply watching what was going

24     on.  As I said, they walked among the people, but they did not do

25     anything, I mean anything abnormal or bad or whatever.  Now, what

Page 23521

 1     happened later to these people, I don't know.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is there a microphone on somewhere

 4     because I hear more than I would like to.  I hear interpretation.  [In

 5     English] Somewhere a speaker, I suppose, Your Honour, is on.  Okay.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   You said today during the examination-in-chief and also in your

 8     statements that the people moved and tried to go towards the UN on the

 9     10th of June, and you arrived at this first compound, UN compound;

10     correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   However, Srebrenica had not fallen by that time; correct?

13        A.   Well, not yet, but the UNPROFOR point was moved.  It was at

14     Ljubistivica [phoen], or whatever it was called, where the UNPROFOR

15     soldiers were.  They were already -- they already moved from there up

16     until then.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Was this your own decision or was this something that

18     was suggested by someone in authority, that this would be a good course

19     to follow?

20        A.   Do you mean to move towards Srebrenica?  What do you mean?  I'm

21     not sure what you meant.

22        Q.   Well, yes.  To move and head for the UN compound on the 10th.

23        A.   Well, we were at the elementary school, and we saw that a large

24     number of people had already started moving towards Srebrenica from all

25     those areas, Ucina Basta, Pekara [phoen], Jadar itself.  All of those

Page 23522

 1     people from those areas had already gone to Srebrenica and they were all

 2     moving towards the UNPROFOR compound.  It was a movement of the

 3     population.  It wasn't organised or anything.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the same thing happened again on the 11th,

 5     correct, again before the Serbs arrived in Srebrenica?

 6        A.   Well, on the 11th, in the morning, I can't recall exactly what

 7     time it was, we were still in the building, when my brother left we saw

 8     these columns of people moving again because they had already come back,

 9     and then they literally said, "Well, they returned sooner than we thought

10     they would.  Do you want us all to be captured?"  So they said that the

11     Serbs had already come to the Srebrenica MUP.  So they had already been

12     in Srebrenica when I left the building and moved towards the UNPROFOR

13     compound.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Now you also say that at this point some trucks

15     appeared.  You say this on page 1944.  UNPROFOR trucks appeared.  They

16     were full of people, and people used this mode of transportation to move

17     towards Srebrenica.

18        A.   No.  I don't know if people used this.  They did not take anyone

19     from the compound.  Everybody had to get down.  I assume, and I don't

20     know if this information is correct, because I saw that my son was there.

21     I assumed that they had returned them and they wanted to -- they asked

22     for the people from the hospital to be evacuated.  So they were there on

23     the truck, and I saw this because the tarp was torn and it was -- it

24     wasn't covering the truck, so that's when I saw him there and also this

25     friend of his, and they were trying to evacuate the wounded persons.  I

Page 23523

 1     don't know what happened with the others.  They probably walked.

 2        Q.   [No interpretation].  "[In English] Not far from Potocari, about

 3     a kilometre, I --"

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you start your question again.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Here's what you say on page 1944:

 7             "[In English] Not far from Potocari, about a kilometre, I'm not

 8     quite sure, a lot of people overtook us and two UNPROFOR trucks also

 9     arrived, caught up with us, and they were crammed with people."

10             [Interpretation] And then on page 1946 you say, on line 9, that

11     people boarded these trucks, UNPROFOR trucks, and a number of people left

12     on foot, whereas the others went on trucks and were taken to the UNPROFOR

13     compound; correct?

14        A.   No, that's not what I said.  People were trying to get on these

15     trucks while we were originally in the compound in Srebrenica.  They

16     thought they could go that way.  However, when we set off on foot, when

17     we were told that we should go to Potocari, all those people had to get

18     off those trucks.  They weren't taken on the trucks from there.  So then

19     we all walked in a column towards Potocari on foot.  Then on -- halfway

20     there, I'm not sure exactly where we were, two of those trucks overtook

21     us, and I only saw -- on one of these trucks where the tarp was torn, I

22     saw my son and this other boy, his friend, his friend from Srebrenica.  I

23     saw the two of them.  At least that was my assumption, because I know

24     that as we were leaving, I know that they were pleading with these guys

25     to let them evacuate the wounded people, and I assume that maybe that's

Page 23524

 1     what they did.  And that's my assumption again, that that's how he

 2     arrived to the Potocari compound, the UN Potocari compound, where he got

 3     off and then that's the last time I saw him.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You said that there was shooting, that there were a

 5     lot of shells.  You said that there was shooting opened on a line of

 6     people waiting for the water.  When was and who was it who was killed in

 7     the waterline in Srebrenica?

 8        A.   Mr. Karadzic, there were so many thousands of people in

 9     Srebrenica in these waterlines.  How do you imagine that I could tell you

10     who of these people were killed?  Do you understand that entire -- I

11     don't know who was killed.  There were entire cemeteries, new cemeteries

12     sprang up because so many were killed.  There were people getting killed

13     everywhere throughout the town, not just in one particular area, not in

14     waterlines.  There were people dying everywhere.  Now, who these people

15     were, how could I tell?  I really can't tell you.  I can't even tell you

16     how many of them were killed, but believe me, there were so many people

17     dead in Srebrenica.  Nobody could keep count --

18        Q.   But do you remember that other than the shell that landed on the

19     football pitch during a football match, do you recall any other mass

20     killing of that sort in Srebrenica, in a line of some sort, between the

21     time when Srebrenica was provide a protected area and July 1995?

22        A.   Sir, in those days when I was there, a shell did land.  I can't

23     recall what date it was, but there were people who had come from Cerska

24     and Konjevic Polje and on that occasion a shell landed there and a woman

25     and two children got killed.  There were a lot of people there coming

Page 23525

 1     from other towns, and there were three people killed at one spot at one

 2     time there.

 3             The house in which we lived at the time, when this shell

 4     exploded, all the glass on the windows broke.  There wasn't only one

 5     shell.  There were shells falling all the time, so it's hard to tell.

 6        Q.   Madam, there were some 700 to 800 days, almost a thousand days,

 7     between the time when the area was declared a protected area and

 8     June 1995.  When was it that that shell landed where you said that

 9     your -- you -- your legs gave way under you and that you were so scared

10     because there hadn't been many before the?

11        A.   Well, sir, this was all in the first war year when all this was

12     happening.

13        Q.   Thank you.  But you were aware -- you knew that in July 1996 --

14     my apologies.  I'm pressed for time.  That's why I'm rushing.

15             So you did know that the Serbs were not really shelling and not

16     aiming to kill, that they were shelling -- that the shells were falling

17     on the side of the road, and their intention was different, not to kill;

18     correct?

19        A.   Well, in my view, as we were on our way to Potocari then, it was

20     really just their attempt to intimidate people, because there were shells

21     falling on the side, but -- and some people were hit by shrapnel, but it

22     was hard to actually keep your head on your shoulders because there were

23     many children there.  They were terrified and everybody was trying to

24     peach Potocari as soon as they could.  They were moving very fast, we

25     were moving very fast.  There were elderly people in the column as well,

Page 23526

 1     women and children, and of course they lagged behind a bit, behind the

 2     column.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  On page 1946 you say that UNPROFOR recommended that

 4     you move towards Potocari and that you heard planes overhead.  And then

 5     on the next page you say that the shells were falling on either side of

 6     the road.  And then on the next page, 1947, you talk about what you've

 7     just mentioned here, that you thought that these shells were intended to

 8     intimidate.

 9             Now, do you agree with the opinion of others whom we've heard

10     here that these shells were meant to actually make people stick to the

11     road, that they were not supposed to veer away, veer off from the road,

12     that they should stay on the road?

13        A.   Well, on the other side of Potocari there were meadows, other

14     people's land, and you couldn't really take any other way, any other

15     road.  There was no need to -- to go any other way other than the road

16     that we were already walking on.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you mentioned today, I believe, and then on

18     page 1949 you said that many shells landed on the separation line, the

19     line separating the Serb and the Muslim armies; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  On the night of the 11th going on the 12th, you said

22     that it was rather calm; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And then on the 12th of July, you saw Serbian soldiers for the

25     first time.  That was the first time that they actually came up to you,

Page 23527

 1     that they established contact with you.

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You describe on page 1950 that no one was sure where to go.

 4     Everyone was wondering which way to go.  Before this, you decided as a

 5     family that civilians, you, your father-in-law, and the youngest child,

 6     should join the civilians and head for Potocari; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Was this something that was suggested by someone else or was this

 9     purely your own decision?

10        A.   It was my decision, our decision.

11        Q.   Did this decision coincide with the decisions that most other

12     people decide to take?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Who was it who decided that able-bodied men should

15     head towards Susnjari -- toward Susnjari?

16        A.   I don't know that there was any official decision.  As for my

17     men, and I'm speaking on their behalf, they simply decided to head that

18     way.  Just like in 1992, we did not trust the Serbs to surrender to them.

19     So the same feeling prevailed, and they decided to try and head for

20     Susnjari and then reach the so-called free territory that way, to try to

21     break through.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what I would like to ask you about, you say that

23     they -- well, they could go in four different directions.  How was it

24     that 15 -- 13.000 to 15.000 people decided to go in this one particular

25     direction to Susnjari?  How could that be?

Page 23528

 1        A.   Well, I really don't know.  I know that most people who were

 2     there who were from Cerska and Konjevic Polje, there were even some

 3     people from Zvornik municipality, I believe that they were familiar with

 4     this road.  Simply that was the reason.  Some people decided to go back

 5     to Zepa.  So I really don't know how it was that they decided to go that

 6     way.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that about 1.000 Oric's men crossed the

 8     Drina by way of Zepa and crossed into Serbia?

 9        A.   I did hear that some people managed to cross over into Serbia,

10     but who they were and whether they were fighters or not, I don't know.  I

11     don't know if they were civilians or soldiers.  I don't know anything

12     about that.

13        Q.   You mentioned that some houses that were uninhabitable and some

14     other buildings, that there were haystacks, and as the Serb army was

15     coming downhill, down the slope, that they were torching everything

16     before them; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Well, where did these haystacks come from?  How -- how did that

19     happen to be there?  Was someone actually cutting grass?

20        A.   Well, people lived there, and these people were people who lived

21     there and were just tilling their soil, working their land.

22        Q.   And the hay was meant for cattle; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, the houses that you mentioned, did anyone

25     explain to you that when an army goes through a certain area, they cannot

Page 23529

 1     leave any buildings behind them because there might be someone hidden in

 2     those buildings who could then shoot at their backs?

 3        A.   Well, how could anyone explain anything like that to us?  We

 4     didn't know what we were doing.  Why would anyone be explaining anything?

 5     All we could see was that they were setting everything on fire, and then

 6     when arrived -- when they arrived there, then we realised who they were.

 7     Of course, "we" meaning all of our people who were all over the place

 8     there on the plateau, around some factory and so on.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you mentioned today that there was a lot of

10     shooting into the air.  They were celebrating something, celebratory

11     shooting; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   On line 13, page 1951, you speak about this, and then you say

14     that the Serb soldiers then mixed in or came and joined you, the

15     population, the Muslim population.

16        A.   Yes.  They came.  They went from group to group from us and they

17     asked us, you know, about things.

18        Q.   So they were asking you about how you were doing, who -- your

19     names and so on?

20        A.   Well, as I mentioned, they asked about things such as where our

21     sons were, where our husbands were, and stuff like that.  Personally, no

22     one addressed me.  No one asked me anything or asked for any names or

23     anything of that sort.

24        Q.   On page 1952, you say that they were looking for children.  Some

25     gave chocolate bars and chewing gum to children.  The children were very

Page 23530

 1     hungry for these things, and they accepted gladly; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And on the next page, 1953, you say, and you've also repeated

 4     that on pages 38 and 39, that on several occasions they called out people

 5     to interrogate them.  They called out one person once, twice, and a third

 6     time.  That person did not come back.

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   What could they have learned about that person in the meantime?

 9     Why didn't they take them out straight away?

10        A.   Some people did not return after the first time they were taken

11     out, and a couple of other people who were interrogated once or twice did

12     not return on the third time.  I don't know why.

13        Q.   On page 1953, you say you saw an UNPROFOR soldier tied to a

14     vehicle.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Did you maybe imagine that?

17        A.   No.

18        Q.   Well, I'm asking, because nobody ever reported that we had tied

19     an UNPROFOR soldier to his vehicle.

20        A.   When we went out to get some water, there was an UNPROFOR vehicle

21     in the street, and there was a soldier lying on his back with his arms

22     outstretched and tied behind his back.

23        Q.   In some of your statements you said - and I hope this was a slip

24     of the tongue - that Serbs had taken out several hundred young women.

25     They separated them from the others.  Nobody ever reported about that to

Page 23531

 1     us.  Did somebody tell you that or did you see them separating young

 2     women?

 3        A.   I saw these young women being separated from the others and taken

 4     away towards houses to the right of Srebrenica, towards, for instance,

 5     the house of Hasan Malic and his neighbours, the houses lying below my

 6     brother's house, which was devastated at the time.  They took them to

 7     those houses.

 8             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I don't object to the question, but

 9     Mr. Karadzic mentioned statements.  As I understand, there's only one

10     statement, so if he's speaking about there being more than one, I would

11     just appreciate a cite.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are two transcripts of this

13     witness's testimony, in Tolimir and in Krstic, and also a statement, a

14     written statement, from 1995.  I can find a reference later.  I think

15     this passage comes from the 1995 statement.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   You say that some people taunted you, mentioning Alija and asking

18     you why you did not listen to Babo, your daddy.

19        A.   That's the man who cursed our Balija mother, and saying that if

20     we had listened to Babo, that is to say, Alija, the things that were

21     happening would not be happening to us.

22        Q.   Do you agree -- and I'm saying this because the Chamber does not

23     know who Babo is, do you know that Babo is a Muslim leader who

24     overwhelmingly won the elections in 1992 but is of a different political

25     affiliation than Alija Izetbegovic?

Page 23532

 1        A.   I cannot answer that sort of question, Mr. Karadzic, which

 2     politician belonged to what party and who got more votes.  I was not

 3     involved in that, and I don't know what would have happened if we had

 4     listened to this one or that one.  I'm an ordinary woman who survived

 5     what she has survived.

 6        Q.   But you do know that it is a Muslim leader whom the Serbs

 7     preferred over Alija, and these Serbs were telling you if you had

 8     listened to Babo, then these things would not be happening.  You know

 9     he's a Muslim leader; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   On page 1959 and 1958, you say that moaning could be heard from

12     people who were being tortured in the white house or wherever it was they

13     were interrogated.  How is it possible that nobody from the UNPROFOR

14     reported about that, although all 150 of them were there?

15        A.   That's rubbish, Mr. Karadzic.

16             MS. WEST:  Objection.

17             JUDGE KWON:  She answered the question.

18             JUDGE MORRISON:  It was a classic example of asking somebody

19     what's in a third party's mind, Dr. Karadzic.  If the Prosecution did

20     that, you'd be the first to object.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm making an introduction to what

22     the UNPROFOR told them.  On page 1959, UNPROFOR said -- sorry.  Page 58,

23     line 23:

24             "[In English] We wanted to know what would happen to the people,

25     to the men whose families were screaming, but they would," next page,

Page 23533

 1     "they would simply answer that a member of their families must have gone

 2     mad or something like that and they told us not to be afraid and that it

 3     was nothing really."

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So UNPROFOR did not see that anybody was being tortured, and they

 6     thought the families were going crazy and perhaps exaggerating.

 7        A.   You know better.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I'll let it go because she already started her

 9     answer.

10             Yes, Ms. West.

11             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  I still object on the same

12     grounds.  And secondly, Mr. Karadzic has not read this entire passage,

13     because these are soldiers of which she was -- were actually Serb

14     soldiers that she said were wearing UNPROFOR uniforms.  So they're not

15     Dutch soldiers.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, would you like to hear again "rubbish"

17     from the witness?  Please move on.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You say that it was only your assumption, and you supposed that

22     somebody had committed suicide.  How many people committed suicide?

23        A.   Some people committed suicide.  There was one man I saw with my

24     own eyes that night who hanged himself when he saw what was going on.

25     After midnight nobody was sleeping.  He hanged himself in the compound of

Page 23534

 1     the Zinc factory.  I know that man.  He was a relative of mine,

 2     Hamdije Smajlovic.  From the accounts of his family, his wife, who was

 3     going back with us, their house was close to mine, I know that her

 4     husband also hanged himself, and there were many other people who did not

 5     know what to do or where to go and decided to take their own lives.

 6             All the people your Serb soldiers took away the evening of the

 7     12th, not a single shot could be heard.  Only screams and moans could be

 8     heard.  And it was not the white house.  There were two houses next to

 9     the Zinc factory.  Some people were taken there that night.  There were

10     screams, awful screams and cries.  You couldn't really determine where

11     they were coming from.  Also from the compound of the transport company.

12             All this screaming was coming from everywhere, like in a horror

13     film.  The night was filled with it.  People could not understand what

14     was going on, but the families around us all lost family members, men who

15     were taken out that night and never came back.

16        Q.   We'll come back to that, with all due respect.  On page 1958 and

17     59, the witness assumed those were Serbian soldiers because they knew the

18     Serbian language, but there is no other proof that they were Serbian

19     soldiers.  I'm telling you, madam, that it's impossible that Serbian

20     soldiers would be wearing UNPROFOR uniforms in front of UNPROFOR troops.

21             So you decided that they were Serbian only because they were

22     speaking Serbian.

23        A.   No.  I saw one soldier when he was taking his T-shirt off and

24     giving it to another soldier.  And we had spent a lot of time with Dutch

25     troops in Srebrenica before that.  Not a single one of them knew our

Page 23535

 1     language that well.

 2             On the 13th, in the morning, when we were asking them what to do

 3     and where to go, they were smiling so happily.  You know who can smile

 4     like that?  Somebody who achieved their goal.  They spoke Serbian so

 5     perfectly there's no chance they were Dutch.  Not a single Dutch soldier

 6     could do that.

 7        Q.   You never mentioned that soldier who was taking his T-shirt off

 8     before.

 9        A.   I could write a novel if I were to mention everything that

10     happened during those years and that -- these days in Potocari.  There

11     are things coming back all the time.  And people who were grown up, who

12     had moved among these soldiers during those years knew perfectly well not

13     a single Dutch soldier spoke Serbian so well.

14        Q.   You also mentioned for the first time in this testimony, on

15     page 1969, that young women were separated from the others and taken

16     away.  They took daughters and young girls.  I'm giving this reference

17     for the benefit of the other participants in the trial.

18             And you now say that some people hanged themselves.  You know one

19     of them.  You knew one of them, Hamdije Smajlovic.  How did you know him?

20        A.   He was a cousin, and before the war he worked in the Zinc

21     factory, in the servicing shop.

22        Q.   What's his father's name?

23        A.   Demir Smajlovic.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know Kiram Smajlovic?  Did he hang himself

25     too?

Page 23536

 1        A.   I knew the man, but I didn't see him hang himself.

 2        Q.   And were you told -- I'll tell you now on which page, 1960.  My

 3     next-door neighbour -- I'll read in English:

 4             [Overlapping speakers] ... "[In English] A next-door neighbour of

 5     mine, she had a house in the vicinity of the factory.  They were going

 6     home to get some food and she told me that on the way she had seen two

 7     other persons, two of our neighbours, who had hanged themselves.

 8     Kiram Smajic and Fehim Hasanovic."

 9             [Interpretation] Right?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Did you know this man Kiram?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Do you know his father's name?

14        A.   Nazif Smajic.

15        Q.   Nazif or Kemal?

16        A.   Nazif.

17        Q.   Thank you.  We'll come back to those whom you later learned to be

18     dead or to have committed suicide.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have five minutes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I don't think the

21     next witness can begin.  It takes 20 minutes only to set up the

22     courtroom, so just because of the circumstances you could give me a few

23     more minutes.

24             JUDGE KWON:  You have exactly 15 minutes conclude your

25     evidence -- cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic.  Sorry, five minutes.

Page 23537

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   On page 1983, you stated, line 16:

 4             "[In English] I can corroborate it by fresh examples from my

 5     family.  My father-in-law Omer Malagic, born in 1926, his three sons, one

 6     of whom was my husband Salko Malagic, born 1948.  His two brothers

 7     Osman Malagic, Dzafer Malagic, his three grandsons, these are my two

 8     sons, Elvir Malagic born in 1973, Admir Malagic born in 1979, and my

 9     brother-in-law Samir Malagic."

10             [Interpretation] They're all dead; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   When were they killed, respectively?

13        A.   My father-in-law, as I said before, Omer Malagic; my husband

14     Salko Malagic; Samir Malagic, and the others all were killed at the time

15     Srebrenica fell, whereas my brother-in-law Osman Malagic was killed in

16     Srebrenica sometime in June.  I don't know the date.  Whereas

17     Dzafer Malagic was killed in December 1992.  Also while searching for

18     food, he was killed by an air-bomb.

19        Q.   And those who were killed in July, where were they killed and

20     how?  They attempted a breakthrough, all of them except your

21     father-in-law; correct?

22        A.   As I said before, when I went to identify the bodies in Tuzla, we

23     had all received papers beforehand and I presented them to the OTP, and

24     there are protocols listing the place where they were killed and the

25     grave where they were found.  The locations were Zvornicka, Kamenica,

Page 23538

 1     where the executions took place.

 2             Regarding my son, the cause of death is indicated as possible

 3     entry and exit wound in the chest.  And for my husband the cause of death

 4     is not determined because the bones were collected from several sites.

 5     It was not a complete skeleton, and the doctor could not establish the

 6     cause of death, so I don't know.

 7        Q.   What kind of certificate did you obtain regarding these victims?

 8     How were they qualified in the certificates?

 9        A.   What do you mean?

10        Q.   Did you receive certificates for them as what, casualties,

11     civilian victims, or combatants?  It's indicated on the certificate.

12        A.   My husband is listed as combatant, and children, victims of war,

13     casualties of war.

14        Q.   Page 1991, you repeated that a thousand women did not return from

15     Potocari, and 106 -- and 650 children didn't.  Do you stand by that claim

16     that the Serbs kept a thousand women and 650 children?

17        A.   That doesn't mean that the Serbs kept them.  I heard various

18     stories, and one man told me that his entire family that boarded a truck

19     in Potocari did not arrive at Tuzla.  Where those people ended up is a

20     matter for speculation.  Some women were killed too.  Where they were

21     killed and how they met their death, I don't know.  I can't tell you.

22        Q.   And what is written in this 92 ter notification, that out of all

23     the men some were separated by Serb soldiers, that's not true.

24        A.   I don't understand.

25             JUDGE KWON:  No.  Please put a pause before you start answering

Page 23539

 1     the question, Ms. Malagic.

 2             Could you repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic.  That may be --

 3     this should be the last question from you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I just ask one final

 5     question?  Can this be the penultimate?

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Here in the notification, 92 ter notification, the Prosecutor

 8     claims that you were separated from your sons and your husband by Serb

 9     soldiers.  That's not quite correct, is it?

10        A.   Well, literally speaking, perhaps you could claim that it's not

11     correct, but in fact it is correct.  We were separated by Serb soldiers.

12     I mean, they weren't literally there at that spot and then separating us.

13     We were -- rather, we were forced to separate, but we separated because

14     of the Serb soldiers, because of the shelling, because of trying not to

15     fall in their hands.  So we were separated at -- on the outskirts of

16     Srebrenica.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And my last question:  We mentioned today a large

18     number of people who were killed in 1992, and also some people who

19     committed suicide, as well as those who went missing while they were

20     trying a breakthrough towards Tuzla.  Are all those names etched in on

21     the memorial in Srebrenica, the monument, the memorial site there?

22        A.   All the names, all of those people who were killed when

23     Srebrenica fell, or killed, those who were trying to break through and so

24     on, but all of those who were killed before that time, earlier on, their

25     names are not on this memorial monument.  They are -- they were buried in

Page 23540

 1     other locations, in other areas.  So only those who were killed in

 2     Potocari or Srebrenica they were there.

 3        Q.   But if I tell you that they're on lists, on DNA-identification

 4     lists, including the suicides, if I told you that they were on the

 5     1992 list of -- would -- and that's not correct, what would you say to

 6     that?  Where did these other people get killed -- get buried?

 7        A.   Well, the Kazani cemetery, the Potocari cemetery, some mass

 8     cemeteries where a number of people were buried at the same time,

 9     especially during intense shelling.  In other words, in all the areas

10     around Srebrenica when there was a cemetery already or there was free

11     space, anyway, they established cemeteries and buried people there.

12        Q.   Well, where are those cemeteries now?

13        A.   Well, they're still in Srebrenica, in the town.

14        Q.   And my last question:  The Prosecutor tried to link this with

15     something that you saw in Sandici.  When was this?  When did this happen?

16     What date and at what time?

17        A.   Well, this was on the 13th of July.  I was on the bus at the

18     time.  Around -- in the early afternoon, around 1.00 or 2.00 p.m. like

19     now.  I'm not quite sure, because I didn't have a watch.  So I'm not sure

20     about the time, but the sun was already high on the sky.

21        Q.   But do you know that on the night of the 12 -- between the 12th

22     and the 13th there were no Serb soldiers in Potocari, and you said that

23     that night was horrible.

24        A.   The 12th, on the 13th of July?  Sir, that's not correct.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 23541

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not have enough

 2     time to complete fully my questioning.  And that the Defence should be

 3     allotted the same amount of time as the Prosecution in the 92 ter

 4     situation, that's really a novelty too.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I would like you to read back the

 6     transcript of today and find out what kind of questions you were asking

 7     to the witness for the first hour.

 8             Ms. West, would you like to have any re-examination?

 9             MS. WEST:  No, thank you, Mr. President.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, may I just add one

11     final word.  May I say something, and this has to do with my questions at

12     the beginning of the questioning.

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Karadzic.

14             Ms. Malagic, that concludes your evidence in this case.  On

15     behalf of my colleagues and the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to

16     thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to

17     go.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please have a safe journey.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Malagic, on behalf

22     of the Defence, and I hope you hold no grudge against us.

23                           [The witness withdrew]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Who will lead the next witness?

25             MS. WEST:  Mr. Nicholls.

Page 23542

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that we need 15 minutes to prepare for

 2     the next witness, but still there's a point, but it's worth it to

 3     continue even if it's for 20 minutes.

 4             MS. WEST:  I think so, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll break for 15 minutes and resume at

 6     quarter to 3.00.

 7                           --- Break taken at 2.28 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 2.45 p.m.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk.  My apologies for

11     pronunciation.

12             THE WITNESS:  Good afternoon, Your Honour.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You are appearing again for a second time, but for

14     clarity, I would prefer you to take the solemn declaration again.

15             THE WITNESS:  Of course.  I solemnly declare that I will speak

16     the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please take a seat.

18                           WITNESS:  TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Recalled]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.

21     Before I begin, Your Honours, may I raise one matter briefly which I've

22     discussed with my friend Mr. Robinson, and that is I would ask that the

23     OTP be allowed to have contact and speak with Mr. Blaszczyk while he is

24     testifying solely on the issue of scheduling of other witnesses because

25     he sometimes assists us and the people doing the scheduling with witness

Page 23543

 1     phone numbers and addresses and things like that, and my friend does not

 2     have an objection.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  It is granted, Mr. Nicholls.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 5                           Further Examination by Mr. Nicholls:

 6        Q.   Good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk.

 7        A.   Good afternoon.

 8        Q.   As you know, today for a short time and tomorrow we're going to

 9     discuss an exhibit you've created, 65 ter 03931, and we may bring that up

10     in e-court now, which we call the Petrovic Video Road Book.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  And, Your Honours, I believe you should all have a

12     copy, a hard copy, and I've passed it out to Mr. Karadzic and to

13     Mr. Harvey as well.

14        Q.   And I'm not going to talk about your background at all,

15     Mr. Blaszczyk, because we talked about that when you testified on

16     20th of August, 2010, when you were here before.

17             So now talking about what I'll call the road book, can you tell

18     us very briefly, and for the record you have a copy in front of you, what

19     is this document?  What does it show us?

20        A.   This road book or Petrovic video book we created based on

21     Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac's video raw material and also of the material

22     broadcasted by Serbian television and Studio B television in July 1995.

23     This road book contains a map of particular area of Bratunac, in fact,

24     Potocari, Sandici, Kravica, Pervani, Lolici, and the pictures, the stills

25     from the material broadcasted by Serbian television in July 1995.  The

Page 23544

 1     material was recorded by Serbian journalist Zoran Petrovic.  And also in

 2     this notebook -- this road book, I -- we attached the pictures of the

 3     spotted location of this aerial -- of this area I mentioned just while

 4     before.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And you said that --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, Mr. Nicholls.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 8        Q.   And you said, Mr. Blaszczyk, that Zoran Petrovic Pirocanac, shot

 9     this raw video footage that's the subject of the book as well as created

10     the Studio B documentary.  Can you tell us what dates

11     Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac shot this footage in the areas you described?

12        A.   The footage was recorded on the 13 and 14 July 1995 on the

13     area -- area I described just while ago.  It's Potocari, Sandici, Kravica

14     and Pervani area.

15        Q.   And just to be clear, this man's name is Zoran Petrovic.  Is

16     Pirocanac a nickname which is sometimes used and attached to his full

17     name?

18        A.   It is correct.  His real name is Zoran Petrovic but he use

19     nickname of Pirocanac.

20        Q.   And we'll look at the video later, but could you also tell us and

21     tell Their Honours in the back of 65 ter 03931, the Petrovic video road

22     book, there's a CV -- or DVD.  Can you just tell us what that is in the

23     back?

24        A.   To each notebook we attached digital presentation of the same

25     area.  In fact, digital presentation containing only information about

Page 23545

 1     Potocari, and Sandici and Kravica area.  It's more or less is the same --

 2     the same presentation like is in the book but more widely described, more

 3     accessible.  If we're going to play this presentation, I will explain

 4     everything in due course.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And now just before we get on to the book, we'll see

 6     in the video that Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac travelled by car in the areas

 7     you've mapped out and took some video actually from the moving car on the

 8     13 and 14 July.  Who was with him during his trip to these areas?  Who

 9     else was present in the vehicle?

10        A.   Mr. Zoran Petrovic Pirocanac is travelling together with

11     Ljubisa Borovcanin and with his driver.  I mean Ljubomir Borovcanin's

12     driver.  I think his name is Nedjo Jovicic.

13        Q.   And just for our record, who is Mr. Borovcanin?

14        A.   At that -- at that time Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin was the deputy

15     commander of the Special Police Brigade of Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   Thank you.  The video footage which was used in comprising this

17     book, where did it come from?  Where did -- how did you receive it?  And

18     I'm talking there about the video with the ERN V000-6747, which is

19     P00667, previously admitted.

20        A.   Regarding to this particular video, this is copy of the raw

21     material that Mr. Pirocanac or Petrovic recorded in -- at that time in

22     July 1995 in Srebrenica area.  Mr. Petrovic gave us access to this raw

23     material in 2006 - I think it was February 2006 - during the interview we

24     had conducted with him in our field office in Belgrade.  We made a copy

25     there, a good quality copy, the best quality copy we could, you know,

Page 23546

 1     just of this material from him.  And on the copy he confirmed that the

 2     tape contained exactly the same -- the same footage he recorded on the

 3     raw material.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And just if I can be clear, is it right then that

 5     Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac personally handed you his raw material, that you

 6     were present when the OTP copied that raw material, and that then

 7     Mr. Pirocanac certified that the copy was a good correct copy?

 8        A.   Yes, this is correct.  You know, just when we met Mr. Pirocanac

 9     in February 2006 we asked him to provide the raw material, his raw

10     material.  He agreed with it.  I remember at that time he didn't have

11     this material with him.  I had to drive him to his accommodation in

12     Belgrade and we picked up the raw material.  We returned to our field

13     office and our video assistant who also assisted us in -- during this

14     mission he made the copy of -- of this raw material, in fact, with our

15     presence, with presence my lawyer, it was Mr. Nicholls at that time, and

16     Mr. Petrovic.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Now, very briefly, has the OTP come into possession

18     of any other versions, any other tapes, of this raw material from other

19     sources?

20        A.   Yes.  The OTP is in possession also of other of, let's say, the

21     copy of the same material but from other sources -- our sources.  This

22     would be -- this is, in fact, material we received from -- from BBC, it

23     was 2002.  Then the material we received -- we are talking about copy of

24     the raw material from Mr. Pirocanac, the material we received from --

25     from Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I think it was 2007.

Page 23547

 1     And -- and we have also added the material which was broadcasted by

 2     Studio B in July 1995 containing the footage from Petrovic raw material.

 3     Well, edited version.  We receive it from Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin during

 4     the interview we had with him.  As far as I remember, it was March 2002.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I please have 65 ter 03933.  And to save

 7     time while it's coming up I'll say this is a document from the

 8     VRS Main Staff Centre for Information and Propaganda Activities, dated

 9     the 22nd of June, 1996, signed by Colonel Milovan Milutinovic.  And it's

10     entitled:  "Report on television footage from Srebrenica, VRS Main Staff

11     Security Body."  And if we could just scroll down to see the signature,

12     please.

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Blaszczyk, who is -- or in July 1995, what was the

14     position for Colonel Milutinovic in the VRS?

15        A.   In July 1995, Colonel Milan Milutinovic was the head of the press

16     centre of VRS.

17        Q.   And very briefly, you've seen this document before; correct?

18        A.   Yes, it is correct.

19        Q.   And just to sum up, this refers to the Petrovic Pirocanac raw

20     material being in Belgrade and states that it should be obtained by the

21     VRS.

22        A.   Yes.  That is correct, yes.  Exactly.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender that document, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4266, Your Honours.

Page 23548

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  We still have time.  Could I please have

 2     65 ter 03934 in e-court, a document dated 24 June 1996, receipt for

 3     temporarily seized object, signed by Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara.

 4        Q.   And in the document we just saw signed by Colonel Milutinovic, he

 5     stated that a receipt would be necessary.  Can you just tell us, first of

 6     all, what was Ljubisa Beara's position in July 1995 in the VRS?

 7        A.   Ljubisa Beara in July 1995 and during entire the war in

 8     Bosnia-Herzegovina was head of security administration in Main Staff of

 9     Army of Republika Srpska.

10        Q.   And just -- can you tell us, did these documents play any role in

11     the OTP's obtaining the version of the Petrovic Pirocanac raw video which

12     you alluded to that we received from the Ministry of Defence of the RS?

13        A.   Yes.  We first -- if I may explain how we received these

14     documents first.  First we received -- in fact, our team from The Hague

15     went to Banja Luka to the barracks in Banja Luka.  I think it was 2006,

16     November or October in 2006, and they got access to the archive of the

17     Main Staff of army of -- to -- to the archive of the Army of

18     Republika Srpska in Banja Luka, and they copied some -- they scanned some

19     documents, lot of material from -- from the archive.  When -- later on

20     when the team return to The Hague, we had -- and all the scanned versions

21     of the documents were put in -- in our system and were accessible for all

22     investigators, we started to review all the documents, and during the

23     reviewing all this stuffs, at that time scanned in barracks of

24     Army of Republika Srpska, we discovered these two documents.  This is

25     information of Colonel Milutinovic and also receipt for temporarily

Page 23549

 1     seized object, the tape, signed by Colonel Ljubisa Beara, but we received

 2     a copy of these documents -- I mean the scanned version of these

 3     documents.  Immediately when we discovered these receipts, we requested

 4     again Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the originals of

 5     these documents and also we requested for the tape which is mentioned in

 6     both documents.

 7        Q.   Okay.  And just quickly, you said, when you were talking about

 8     this archive:  "At first we received access to the archive of the

 9     Main Staff of the army," and then you said, "to the Army of

10     Republika Srpska in Banja Luka."  Which archive was this in Banja Luka?

11        A.   It was -- it was archive of the Army of Republika --

12     Republika Srpska, but personally I don't believe that it was entire

13     archive of the Main Staff.  It's rather not, you know, just -- but there

14     were documents from various corps and, yes, they were documents from

15     Army of Republika Srpska.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, I note the time.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah.  May I tender the document, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  And that's a good place to break.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4267, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Having realised where we are now, I now find out

22     that we didn't have to take a break for the preparation.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honours.  In fact, we --

24             JUDGE KWON:  The previous video we admitted as Petrovic video was

25     admitted as part of associate exhibit of Mr. Petrovic.

Page 23550

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Correct, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Can I have the exhibit number of

 3     Mr. Zoran Petrovic's statement or testimony?

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'll have to look that up, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry, I don't have that at my fingertips.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll adjourn for today and resume

 8     tomorrow at 9.00.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  May I just clarify one thing?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED:  Mr. Petrovic didn't testify in this.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We admitted his evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis.

13     That was my -- that was my question.

14             I was told that it is Exhibit P375, under seal.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Correct.  That's correct.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Tomorrow, 9.00.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.04 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day

19                           of January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.