1 Tuesday, 24 January 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Unless there are matters to
6 be raised before we begin today, there's one matter. I'd like to issue a
7 ruling in private session. Before that -- before that, yes,
8 Mr. Robinson.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,
10 everyone. Mr. President, we would like to ask that we take a break after
11 the direct examination of the first witness because Dr. Karadzic received
12 some materials late yesterday and some were delivered yesterday after the
13 close of business that he hasn't yet received, and he'd like a chance to
14 review those before beginning his cross-examination.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. West.
16 MS. WEST: Good morning, Mr. President. Good morning,
17 Your Honours. Mr. President, I just spoke to the witness this morning
18 and I think that would probably be very good for her as well. She's not
19 feeling well and she asked me if she could have a break after the direct.
20 JUDGE KWON: How much time-frame do we have in mind in speaking
21 about the break? Yes, Mr. Robinson.
22 MR. ROBINSON: I think our normal 30-minute break would be
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Will that suit the witness, Ms. West, as
1 MS. WEST: I would suspect it would be so, but I think probably
2 we could see at the end of the direct.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
4 Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.
5 [Private session]
18 [Open session]
19 JUDGE KWON: Now the Chamber will issue a ruling on the
20 admissibility of Exhibit D2003, which was marked for identification for
21 the time being. Judge Baird will deliver the Chamber's ruling.
22 JUDGE BAIRD: During the cross-examination of the witness
23 Paul Groenewegen, the Defence applied to have admitted into evidence
24 pages 1 and 3 of a Zagreb newspaper article. The article was entitled:
25 "A Single Shot and the Muslim Hits the Ground," and the two pages in
1 question included an interview that the witness had given to the
3 Ms. West objected to the admission of those two pages on the
4 ground that the witness had testified that he had not used the exact
5 words that appeared in the article. His words had been completely
6 distorted. As a result, the reliability of the article would be called
7 into question because there would have been no certainty that what it
8 conveyed would have been the truth. She contended that although the
9 witness had testified that incident had occurred, it had not occurred in
10 the way it was depicted in the article. The documents would therefore be
11 unreliable unless the journalist came and testified that that was exactly
12 what the witness had said.
13 Mr. Robinson submitted that the witness had acknowledged that he
14 had spoken with the reporter about the topics covered by the article. It
15 will be a matter of weight, therefore, whether what she had reported was
16 exactly what the witness had said or had been distorted in any way.
17 The Chamber considered the arguments of both sides in light of
18 the evidence before the Chamber. The Chamber will now give a compendium
19 of that evidence, pages 22988 to 22991 of the transcript.
20 The accused referred the witness to the article and he quoted
21 what was attributed to the witness by that article at page 3:
22 "From our observation posts, we saw with night-vision equipment
23 the Muslims leave the enclave mainly to smuggle stuff but also to fight.
24 The next day they talked tough about how they cut the Chetniks' throats.
25 These guys were stiff with cocaine. I recognised that, coming from
2 The accused then asked him what he could have told us about that.
3 It seemed that they had night vision, that they were able to observe
4 nightly excursions of Muslims into Serb territory, and he had heard them
5 brag how they had slipped the Chetniks' throats.
6 The witness gave an answer in double aspect. He first agreed
7 with the accused, stating, "You are entirely right ..." These words are
8 emphasised, and the emphasis is mine. He then went on to add that he had
9 not used those exact words. His words had been distorted. He was then
10 referred to the alleged incident also mentioned in the report concerning
11 the alleged execution of a Muslim soldier by a Serb at page 1, and the
12 accused asked him whether he had really told her that or whether she had
13 made it up. He replied, "Well, of course it is not true that she made
14 it -- she made it up ..." Again, these words are emphasised, and the
15 emphasis is mine. He then ended by stating that as for it having been
16 conveyed in those words, he could not have confirmed.
17 It must be stated that the witness did testify that he did not
18 remember the name of the journalist and that she was reporting from
19 Zagreb, but he certainly had the newspaper report before him and he was
20 in a position to read it, and to all appearances he had, in fact, read
22 In answer to the President, he testified that what he told the
23 journalist in respect of the alleged incident that he saw at his
24 observation post corresponded with what he had stated earlier. Also,
25 information about the alleged smuggling and the alleged attack from
1 within to outside the enclave reached them, but he never used the terms
2 reflected in the newspaper. The journalist changed his statement about
3 what they had heard into their actually seeing it.
4 Now, the witness gave evidence that he had not seen the article
5 in a Dutch newspaper, but the article in the Dutch newspaper did not form
6 part of the subject of the application for admission. It will not,
7 therefore, be treated.
8 As the Chamber addressed the evidence, the Chamber was sensible
9 of the fact that at no juncture did the witness dispute that he had given
10 an interview to the journalist and that he had discussed the subject
11 matter of the reports contained in those two pages in that interview.
12 Further, at no stage did the witness repudiate either -- repudiate the
13 report at its core. I emphasise these words, "at its core." In other
14 words, he did not challenge the report when he spoke of the alleged
15 nocturnal excursions by the Muslims and their subsequent vaunting.
16 Neither did he controvert the report when it described the alleged
17 killings of the Muslim by -- of the Muslim soldier by the Serb.
18 As it appears to me -- actually, to the Chamber, the difficulty
19 and concern of the witness resided in the language with which the
20 journalist had clothed the core features -- I emphasise these words - of
21 both those reports. That was the fulcrum of his complaint.
22 En passant, it is instructive to note that at a later stage in
23 his evidence, the witness gave further approval in retrospect of one of
24 the reports in its essence. At page 22996 he was referred to an
25 interview given by Sergeant Batalona in another publication where
1 Sergeant Batalona had commented on the excursions of Muslim fighters and
2 the slaughter of Serbs. The accused then asked him whether this
3 conformed to what he had told the journalist. He replied that a certain
4 similarity was perceptible but he claimed that he had -- he had been told
5 those facts.
6 In the evidential climate existing at page 22988 to 22991,
7 however, the Chamber is disinclined to accept the contention that
8 admissibility of these two pages could only be achieved through the
9 journalist who would be in a position to say exactly what the witness had
10 said. The Chamber is of the opinion that a proper foundation for the
11 admission of the two pages was intrinsic in the evidence of the witness.
12 Accordingly, the need for evidence of the journalist would have been
14 At the end of the day, when all the evidence in the case has been
15 received, should we get to that point, then it would be a matter for the
16 Chamber to decide what weight it would apportion those two pages.
17 The Chamber will therefore grant the application and admit the
18 two pages into evidence.
19 This is a majority decision, Judge Kwon dissenting.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Judge Baird.
21 Shall we bring in the next witness. Ms. West, please call your
22 next witness.
23 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. The Prosecution calls
24 Mirsada Malagic.
25 JUDGE KWON: I take it that you're not tendering any 92 ter
1 associated exhibits.
2 MS. WEST: There are none, Your Honour, and as you know, this was
3 a 92 bis witness that was converted. I was going to ask her a few
4 questions about the Krstic testimony.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Yes. We admitted several associated
6 exhibits in that decision, yes.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, madam.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
10 JUDGE KWON: Will you take the solemn declaration, please.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Madam Malagic. Please make yourself
14 comfortable. Thank you.
15 Ms. West.
16 WITNESS: MIRSADA MALAGIC
17 [Witness answered through interpreter]
18 Examination by Ms. West:
19 Q. Good morning, ma'am.
20 A. Good morning.
21 Q. What is your name?
22 A. Mirsada Malagic.
23 Q. And where do you live now?
24 A. Right now I live in Vogosca. That's a municipality that belongs
25 to Sarajevo.
1 Q. Ma'am, can you confirm that you had an opportunity to listen to
2 your testimony in the Krstic case and that testimony accurately reflected
3 what you told the Court?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And if you were asked about the same issues here in court, would
6 you provide the same information?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. WEST: Mr. President, the Krstic testimony, as we said, is
9 already admitted. It's P00356. There are no associated exhibits. There
10 had been one outstanding associated exhibit but that has already been
11 admitted through another witness.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
13 MS. WEST: I'm going to read a short summary.
14 The witness was born in Potocari in 1959. In 1992, she lived in
15 a small village on the Drina River near Bratunac. She lived there with
16 her husband and three sons. She was forced out of her village in
17 May 1992. Between 1992 and 1995, she lived in a number of villages and
18 also in Srebrenica with her immediate family and a number of other
19 extended family members. During that time, she and her family suffered
20 from the deprivations inflicted on the refugees living in the enclave.
21 In particular, there was never enough food to satisfy the needs of the
22 overcrowded city.
23 The witness left for Potocari on July 11th, 1995. Her husband
24 and two eldest sons and brother decided to reach Tuzla by foot through
25 the woods for fear of what would happen to them at the hands of the
1 Bosnian Serbs. Before she left, the witness was injured by shrapnel from
2 Serb shelling of the enclave. The walk to Potocari was difficult for the
3 refugees as they faced constant shelling. The witness was also pregnant
4 at the time.
5 When she arrived at Potocari with her youngest son and
6 father-in-law, the enclave was -- the compound was already full. She
7 found refuge at a factory and remained there until she left Potocari.
8 During the evening of the 12th, she saw many men being taken away and
9 heard screams coming from the houses behind the Zinc factory.
10 On the 13th, she, her son, and her father-in-law were making
11 their way to the buses to be evacuated. Her father-in-law was separated
12 by the BSA. She saw him taken to the yard of the white house where he
13 dropped his bag before proceeding towards the house. The witness and her
14 youngest son were evacuated. She never saw her husband or her two other
15 sons again.
16 Q. Ma'am, I understand that you don't feel entirely well, and if you
17 need a break, please let us know, but I want to let you know that after I
18 ask you questions, there will then be a break.
19 Ma'am, where were you born?
20 A. I was born on the 10th of January, 1959, in Potocari, the
21 municipality of Srebrenica.
22 Q. And in April 1992, where did you live?
23 A. In April of 1992, I lived in the village of Voljavica,
24 3 kilometres away from Bratunac. It is right by the Drina River. That's
25 where we had our family house and a farm. I lived there with my husband
1 and my children, that is to say, my three sons.
2 Q. And at some point in May were you told to leave your home?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who told you to leave your home?
5 A. Well, on the 11th of May, the representatives of the Serb people
6 came. That's how they introduced themselves. They were from Pobrdje.
7 Pobrdje was between Voljevci and Srebrenica, and it was the same local
8 commune that Voljevci was. They addressed our people and they said that
9 we had to leave Voljavica, that we could no longer live there, and before
10 that, that we were supposed to come to the local commune in Pobrdje and
11 sign a statement to the effect that we are voluntary leaving our homes
12 and property and that we would never return there again. Then they would
13 evacuate us towards Kladanj by bus because, as they explained it, they
14 could no longer protect us from their paramilitaries. Arkan's men,
15 Seselj's men and other paramilitaries. They did not go into all of that.
16 They said that they could no longer guarantee our safety and security and
17 that's why we had to leave.
18 Q. As result of that information what did you do?
19 A. Well, me, my husband and the children, my husband's father and
20 mother and other relatives, as well most of the inhabitants of the
21 village, we decided not to sign any paper to that effect and that we
22 would not surrender and wouldn't come out onto the streets as they
23 demanded so that they would transport us. We simply decided to leave our
24 homes and head for the woods -- or, rather, head for the villages in the
25 direction of Srebrenica.
1 On the evening of the 12th of May, given that we hadn't
2 slept in our homes for the previous twenty or so days, I had gone to
3 my house in early evening to get some clothes and perhaps some covers in
4 order to be able to shelter our kids in case it was cold, and we had no
5 idea how and where we would get to in the end, whether we would be able
6 to get to any village or not. No one really knew that.
7 On that one night, we headed from the village around 8.00, and we
8 arrived after several hours at the first village called Bojici. It was a
9 small village, a hamlet. There was already a large group of people there
10 who had gathered there. Now, as it was dark, we didn't know which way to
11 go further because we didn't know the roads there, and then a local man
12 suggested that he lead us so we would go towards Brezovica, because we
13 were surrounded on all sides by these Serb villages and places where they
14 had already erected their barricades while we were still at our homes.
15 And so at 1.30 a.m., we continued on our journey. All the people who
16 remained and who decided to leave at 3.30, because that had been our
17 agreement earlier that evening, they didn't make it. They didn't have
18 the time. We did manage to get to Brezovica, whereas the others had been
19 attacked. They were surrounded by the Serb soldiers. Whether they were
20 soldiers, reservists, or whatnot, but they were dressed. And they took
21 them to the road from where they evacuated them. I don't know what they
22 did after that with the men. Some of them were killed. I don't know
23 what was the fate of the others, but I reached Brezovica and I stayed
24 there with my in-laws and my husband and my sons. There were a lot of
25 local people from my village there.
1 Q. Now we know that you stayed there for about 15 days, but
2 ultimately did you reach Srebrenica?
3 A. Yes. But we couldn't remain there because there was nearby a
4 Serb village, and they explained to us that because of us they, too,
5 would have to leave their village, that they were not safe there on our
6 account. So we decided not to create any problems for them so we decided
7 to leave for Srebrenica. We traveled in the direction of Skenderovici
8 village and then we had to pass by the village of Spat, Sasa. All these
9 villages were in forests, in woodlands. There was also a road there, but
10 we didn't dare take the road because we could be seen, so we felt that it
11 was safer to go through the woods, that that was safer, and we would
12 reach Srebrenica.
13 After some eight hours or so of walking with the children, we
14 arrived close to Srebrenica, in Kula Grad, and then we went to
15 Srebrenica, to downtown Srebrenica itself.
16 Q. When you entered the downtown area, what did you see?
17 A. In downtown Srebrenica and on the way there, it was a disaster.
18 That's the only way I can describe the -- what I saw in Srebrenica on
19 that day.
20 It was very smelly. There was the stench of burning. All the
21 houses had been burnt. You would just encounter a stray dog or so. We
22 saw a few people. They had already begun to organise some sort of
23 civilian protection. I don't know what to call it. But anyway, we saw
24 some people as we came to the downtown area itself, and these people
25 tried to organise some kind of welcome for the people who were arriving
1 from all the surrounding villages.
2 For me, that was a more difficult day than the day when I left my
3 home. Perhaps you'll ask me why, but it's hard to describe. I felt
4 miserable, and in fact, I realised then in the -- in that town itself
5 what was in store for us. This was my town. I spent my entire working
6 life or career there. It was -- the city was deserted. It was sad. I
7 saw that we had now we found ourselves in a vicious circle out of which
8 there was no way, and I was wondering what was to come next. There was
9 nowhere to go. The tears just started flowing from my eyes. I couldn't
10 stop it. People asked me why I was crying. I couldn't say. It was
11 really terrible. Srebrenica was disastrous. Everything was so
12 difficult, so sad, so miserable, and as I said, you could smell -- there
13 was the stench of burning. All the houses had been torched.
14 Q. Thank you, ma'am. I just want to clarify --
15 JUDGE KWON: Microphone, Ms. West.
16 MS. WEST: Thank you.
17 Q. I just want to clarify a piece of information that you mentioned
18 earlier. You had said on May 12th you had left your village where you
19 had your home, but you also said you hadn't slept in your homes anyways
20 for some period of days before. Was that ten days before or 20 days
22 A. Well, after the 17th or 18th of April, I'm not sure, but from
23 that time on -- onwards, we didn't really sleep in our homes anymore.
24 Many things were happening at the time. I can't tell you exactly dates,
25 but at this time many people were taken away. We were in our homes.
1 There were barricades at Pobrdje. In Bjelovac, which was a small place
2 above our village, there were barricades. The mine was occupied, if I
3 can put it that way. It was -- there were people of Serb ethnicity all
4 over there. We were simply prisoners in our own village. We couldn't go
5 to Bratunac anymore. We had nowhere to go.
6 They would pass by in their cars looking for prominent people.
7 These were usually educated people who had degrees, and then they would
8 take them away. There were murders. For instance, one night, outside my
9 home, a car stopped from the direction of Bratunac. Some young men - I
10 assumed that they were trying to escape - were shot at, and on the next
11 day when we returned, across from our house, in Rifeta Malagic's yard, we
12 saw two young men, two dead bodies. Our elders buried them --
13 Q. Thank you, Ms. Malagic. We now want to focus on the period of
14 time starting in June 1992 when you first arrived in Srebrenica. For
15 those first six to seven months when you arrived, did you live in
16 Potocari, close to Srebrenica, with your brother?
17 A. Yes. I stayed in Srebrenica just a few days, because my younger
18 son -- or, rather, the middle son fell ill. He had a high fever. We
19 didn't know what to do, because there were no hospitals or medical care,
20 as you know. So we stayed in an apartment which was not far from where I
21 used to work, and then we went to our house. Everything was tumbled. We
22 found some medicines. We found some alcohol, took that with us. That
23 took -- that took about a week, and then I found out that my brothers
24 were still alive, that they were in Potocari. So then we headed for
25 Potocari, where we arrived in June. They had a family home there so we
1 went to that house.
2 Q. And we know that you stayed there for about six or seven months
3 and ultimately left. What made you leave Potocari?
4 A. For those seven months that we spent in Potocari, it was
5 difficult. It was disastrous, in fact. You were happy every single day
6 that you were still alive. Every single day there was shelling. You
7 would go to get some water and you would be shelled. They were so close
8 that they could actually see you with the bare eye -- with the naked eye.
9 They were in positions very close by. They could see whatever was
10 happening in Potocari. So we had difficulty. Nothing was functioning
12 Q. Did something happened to your brother's house that made you
14 A. Yes. Yes. Many shells actually fell on my brother's house, but
15 they were smaller calibre shells. So we moved from room to room. We
16 ended up in the garage of the house, trying to find shelter from the
17 shells. Until one day somebody said it was a guided missile. The house
18 was hit, and fortunately on that day, my brother, my husband and my elder
19 son were away. They had gone to Zepa to try and get some food, and by
20 some lucky coincidence I was next door. I wasn't in the house itself. I
21 heard a large explosion. Everything was trembling and shaking. And then
22 when the smoke dissipated, we saw that the house was no more. It was
23 razed to the ground, and it was impossible to live there anymore.
24 Q. Now, you just --
25 A. That was the reason --
1 Q. You just mentioned food. Can you describe for us the food
2 situation in Srebrenica and Potocari during the winter of 1992/1993?
3 A. Well, those of us who had left our homes in May, we were -- we
4 had food shortages from day one. There was nothing to eat. So my
5 husband and my elder son and a few other young men had to try and go back
6 to our house in Voljavica through the woods, risking their lives to see
7 if they could find something to eat. The agony continued in Potocari.
8 There was this huge number of people coming down from Bjelavica and other
9 areas and tried to get the food that was left behind in the barns and so
10 on. There was some corn left there and some grain and so on. So that is
11 how we managed to actually feed ourselves.
12 However, it went on like that until the first snow fell. When
13 the snow fell in 1992, then it became really critical. There was nothing
14 to get from anywhere else. There was no food. All of the barns had been
15 emptied by that time, because in Srebrenica there were a lot of people
16 who had come from Zepa and the Han Pijesak municipality. They were all
17 there. So that food was getting scarcer and scarcer. And if we had
18 something to trade we would in order to get food, but even those people
19 who were from Srebrenica itself, toward the end of December and January,
20 they, too, had been left without any food. So our villages from the
21 Drina valley area were now hungry. There was famine. In January,
22 February, there was barely anything. Then we would go from home to home
23 and -- well, we started begging practically. We had to feed our
24 children. The men, my husband and my older son, my brother, they would
25 venture out and walk kilometres, tens of kilometres to find something,
1 but sometimes they would return without finding anything and they would
2 come back home hungry.
3 I tried to obtain whatever I could from people I knew, from
4 friends. They would help. And I would mostly use that food to feed the
5 kids. And it wasn't really even enough to -- to feed them. It was just
6 survival. It was --
7 Q. Thank you, ma'am. And as a result of giving the food to the
8 children, was there much left for you?
9 A. No. I never even thought about myself. I always -- my first
10 thoughts were always for the kids. I would always give them the food
11 first, and then if there was nothing left after they ate, then there was
12 nothing that I would eat.
13 Q. In January of 1993, did you become ill? And did you speak --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- to a doctor?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did he tell you?
18 A. Well, there was a doctor in Srebrenica. He happened to remain in
19 Srebrenica because he had a father and mother there. He didn't want to
20 leave them, but he was a doctor from the centre for -- a medical centre,
21 and my husband went to see him. I could barely walk. I -- they took me
22 there. They helped me there. And when he examined me, he asked me,
23 "Mirsada, what can I give you? You are hungry. You're malnourished, and
24 you need food. You don't need medicines. The only thing that I -- that
25 you need now would be food, because no medication that I have would help
1 you. If you can manage at least a cup of coffee every day to raise your
2 blood pressure," which was at that time -- "which is so low, that way you
3 could survive." So he proposed, he said that there was some kind of
4 vitamin cocktail injection. He said that they would give this injection
5 to me intravenously and try to pull me back from the dead, as it were.
6 And so every day I was given these shots. He had a lot of difficulty to
7 find a vein where he could actually administer the injection, because my
8 body was -- my tissue was dying out.
9 So after five injections that I received every morning - I think
10 this was the 7th or 8th of January - at 9.00 in the morning I received a
11 shot and then later that day we were bombed. The aeroplanes bombed the
12 village and this doctor was killed. This only doctor that was left there
13 was killed.
14 Q. Ma'am, in regard to his comments about coffee, what did you do?
15 A. Yes. Well, I told the people in the house about this. Now,
16 in -- this house was full of refugees. There were families in each room,
17 different families, and one of the people there told me that there was a
18 woman who had shop and who had some stores of food that she had earlier
19 buried somewhere and that I should go and talk to her, that she had
20 coffee, and I went and asked her, and she asked for gold. I gave her
21 what I had, a handful of jewellery or something, and I asked this man to
22 go and see if he could get something from this woman.
23 This man went with my gold. This woman then in exchange sent
24 some coffee, 100 grams of coffee and a little bit of sugar to use with
25 the coffee, and she also sent a litre of juice, fruit juice. Blueberry
2 Q. What did you do with the juice?
3 A. Well, this juice, you know, if you're starving and your kids had
4 not seen any kind of juice for months, I just could not drink the juice.
5 I made coffee for myself, and as for the kids, I made some juice with --
6 for them. And for a few days they could use this bottle of juice, mix it
7 with water and then use it for a couple of days.
8 Now, on the next day, my youngest son, Adnan, came to me and
9 said, "Mummy, are you hurting?" And I said, "No, my son. Why are you
10 asking?" And he said, "Well -- [No interpretation].
11 JUDGE KWON: Ma'am, just a second. I don't think we're getting
12 any interpretation. Could you repeat your answer starting with those
13 words that you said to your son, "Why are you asking?" And start from
14 there, please.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I asked him, "Why are you
16 asking, son?" He said, "Well, shall I make a glass of juice for you with
17 water?" And then I said that he should go on and do it because he knew
18 that I couldn't drink this up, that I wouldn't, that he would drink it
19 up. And then when he did prepare it for me, then I told him to drink it
20 up myself because I just didn't have the heart to do it while he would
21 just watch me drinking this juice. He was eight years old.
22 It was difficult. I'll never forget those days of my life ever.
23 It is true that people died of starvation, because there was nothing
24 anymore that you could find under this snow cover. You were lucky if you
25 survived from one day to the next.
1 MS. WEST:
2 Q. I'd like to talk to you now about the international food convoys
3 during those years and the food that was brought in. Can you tell us in
4 1993 whether Srebrenica received food from any international groups?
5 A. In the first months of 1993, very early on there was an
6 operation. There were parachutes. There were air-lifts, as it were, and
7 then there were convoys, and in February, sometime in February 1993, in
8 Srebrenica, I can't really recall because we were so weak, you know,
9 nothing functioned. We had no calendars, no watches. Nothing really
10 worked. But I know when the air-lift began, when they started dropping
11 this food from aeroplanes, that people managed to survive on those
12 rations, and the food was distributed every day. And we were assisted
13 significantly by the refugees from Konjevic Polje because they had some
14 food with them.
15 I exchanged -- I had some -- I had nothing to exchange, so then
16 they just lent me some food. They gave me some flour and some other
17 foodstuffs, and I made some kind of bread or cake or something of that
19 Q. Let's move to 1994. Can you describe the amount of food that
20 came into Srebrenica during that year.
21 A. Well, when the convoys began arriving in Srebrenica, very early
22 on, there was a lot of food arriving. It was relatively sufficient. You
23 would get 1 to 2 kilos of flour per family, per family member, some sugar
24 which was measured in grams, some oil, cooking oil. So early on, at the
25 very start, there was enough. We didn't have enough salt or sugar. That
1 was always measured in grams. You would get one of the jar lid -- jar
2 lids of -- of sugar or salt, that was it. Sometimes there was rice, but
3 then we would have no salt to use it with the rice. So that's how it
4 went on. But we had flour, so the people who had already suffered so
5 much were happy to have bread at least.
6 Now, in 1994, everything was tilled in Srebrenica, every inch of
7 the ground, because people tried to sow as much as they could to survive.
8 I started going to Potocari, where I started a vegetable garden, because
9 we received some seeds from the humanitarian aid organisations. We got
10 some carrot seeds and other seeds, so we planted that.
11 Now, in 1994, in the first half and up until the fall, the
12 situation was bearable as far as food was concerned. There was no
13 shooting -- not as much shooting, so it was possible to work the land.
14 Q. So what happened --
15 A. So there was some food.
16 Q. What happened in the winter of 1995 and the spring of 1995? What
17 was the food situation then?
18 A. Well, already that winter the amounts of food diminished, and the
19 convoys did not arrive that often anymore, and when they did, they
20 brought a lot less food. For instance, in the beginning there were would
21 be 13, 14 trucks of humanitarian aid, and later on the number of trucks
22 was halved. There would be five or six.
23 I tried when the trucks unloaded at the former department store
24 in Srebrenica. A truck would come and you would think that a lot of
25 humanitarian aid had arrived, but when they lift the tarpaulin, you would
1 see just one line of sacks, flour and salt trampled with soldiers' boots.
2 That means that somebody had walked over them and taken a lot, because
3 the trucks had not set off towards Srebrenica half empty. That means
4 that the humanitarian aid was unloaded first somewhere else. And it was
5 just for the sake of appearances that something was left at all, that the
6 world would see or be given to see that some trucks had arrived in
8 And that very winter we started our trips looking for food again.
9 We went mainly towards Zepa. My brothers, my husband went to Zepa
10 because I had a sister there, and she and her family had a bit more food.
11 I don't know how. And she let us know that we could come and she would
12 give us some flour.
13 My eldest son went on those journeys, too, and we tried to
14 stretch whatever food we had for as long as we could so that we would
15 have at least one meal a day, which was not very often.
16 Q. Now, we're going to start talking about July of 1995, but before
17 we do, can you first describe for us the number of people who were
18 crowded into Srebrenica in June and July of 1995?
19 A. Well, in July 1995, in fact towards the end of June and the
20 beginning of July, I don't know how many people there were exactly, but
21 it was a huge mass of people on a small area. The figure that I heard -
22 I don't know if its true - was 40.000 people over 50 square kilometres.
23 In every room in every flat there was one family. Every house was full,
24 every garage, every shed. Every schoolhouse with improvised classrooms
25 were used to put up these refugees, people who had nowhere else to go --
1 Q. So after -- pardon me for interrupting. But after the attack
2 began on the 6th of July, did more people come to the town of Srebrenica?
3 A. Yes. After that, even the refugees who had earlier been in
4 Zeleni Jadar started going down towards Srebrenica. There were little
5 wooden houses there housing a lot of people, perhaps up to 3.000. And
6 when the shelling started, when the first UNPROFOR observation post, I
7 think it was called the Ljubisevic [phoen], near Zeleni Jadar, was
8 attacked those people started retreating towards the town itself, towards
9 Srebrenica. They did not feel safe up there anymore because the Serb
10 forces were advancing and these people started going towards Srebrenica.
11 Q. And when the shelling began in earnest on the first day,
12 July 6th, where were you when you first heard it?
13 A. On that day I was going from Potocari to Srebrenica and I was
14 halfway when I heard the first shells exploding. The detonations could
15 be heard in Srebrenica. When I heard them, my legs buckled. I don't
16 know how I managed to reach Srebrenica. It was so horrible after that
17 lull, after that relatively quiet spell.
18 I saw again the images of chaos, shelling, killing, and I don't
19 know how my legs carried me to Srebrenica where I went to see what was
20 going on because my husband and children were trying to do something
21 around our garden.
22 Q. And in the course of the 6th, the 7th, the 8th, did the shelling
23 continue at the same pace? Did it increase? Did it decrease?
24 A. During those days the shelling continued. As I explained
25 earlier, Srebrenica was packed. There were so many people. Every shell
1 found its target. It did not have to be precise, because it simply
2 couldn't miss. It just had to hit Srebrenica and it would kill somebody.
3 People were lining up for water. Some were working their vegetable
4 gardens. The hospital was full again because people were getting killed
5 and wounded. You were nowhere safe anymore.
6 Q. During those days, did you see any wounded people or any dead
7 people on the streets?
8 A. Yes. Yes. One of those days a woman physician by the name of
9 Fatima, I don't know her last name, was wounded when she was walking from
10 the hospital to her apartment in our building. Also close to our house
11 my husband's uncle was seriously wounded when a shell fell into his
12 garden. And there were many other people who were injured while queueing
13 for water, because you needed water for the bathroom, because we had to
14 keep up our hygiene. We had no water for the toilet. There were only
15 improvised toilets outside. And the children had to venture outside
16 frequently because they had to get firewood as we had no electricity for
17 a long time, and the woods around Srebrenica were already all used up and
18 you had to go further and further to get firewood.
19 All the way up to the 10th of July, the hospital was already
20 completely full. That speaks eloquently about how many people were
21 wounded and how many were in danger.
22 Q. Let's talk now about the evening of the 10th of July. On that
23 evening, did you have a meeting, a family meeting with all the members of
24 your immediate family and extended family?
25 A. Yes. In fact, that afternoon, around 4.00 or 5.00 p.m., I'm not
1 sure, a huge column of people started moving towards the UNPROFOR base on
2 the 10th of July, and we left the town too. We were told we should go
3 towards the UNPROFOR compound several kilometres away from [Realtime
4 transcript read in error "Vienna"] Srebrenica in the direction of
5 Potocari, and I with my children headed there to see what to do next, but
6 when we got to the gate, there was again a huge mass of people, and we
7 were told to return. UNPROFOR soldiers told us to go back to our homes,
8 that we were safe, that they would protect us from the Serb forces, that
9 we need not panic --
10 Q. Let's just stop there for a moment. When you talk about this
11 UNPROFOR compound, are you speaking about the one that's closer to
12 Srebrenica, or are you speaking about the one that's further away in
14 A. The one that's closer to Srebrenica.
15 Q. Okay. And that evening, what was the discussion that you had
16 with your family?
17 A. We had all returned to our apartments where we were housed, but a
18 lot of people were coming in from Zeleni Jadar and the area of Srebrenica
19 called Ucina Basta. Everybody was fleeing closer to the UN force. Every
20 building, every entranceway was full of people. The women had brought
21 some flour to be able to make bread, at least for the children.
22 At any rate, that night nobody slept. My husband, his brothers,
23 his parents, myself, did not know exactly what was going on, but we were
24 talking and we made a decision, a decision for ourselves, as many others
25 probably did, that I, my youngest son and my father-in-law should go to
1 the UNPROFOR compound if the Serb soldiers occupied the town whereas the
2 rest of them would go through the woods towards Tuzla. They did not
3 trust the Serb forces to treat them well if they are captured. They
4 thought that the Serbs would not do any harm to the women and children
5 but that they should try to get to the free territory through the woods,
6 and that's how the night passed.
7 Q. Did you want to leave Srebrenica?
8 A. Well, things being what they were during those days, everybody
9 wanted not to leave Srebrenica for the sake of leaving but because they
10 felt unsafe because of the chaos that reigned, because of their fear from
11 the Serb forces that were advancing, and they had already taken one
12 check-point held by the UNPROFOR. Other UN observation posts were not
13 safe either. The circle around the town was getting tighter and tighter,
14 and the Serb troops were closer and closer. And out of fear, everyone
15 wanted to leave that night because they did not feel safe anymore. They
16 feared for their lives.
17 Q. We're going to move to the next day to --
18 JUDGE KWON: Just one second. I wonder whether you can scroll
19 back the transcript. Line 20 of the previous page, this is what is
20 reflected in the transcript:
21 "We were told we should go towards the UNPROFOR compound several
22 kilometres away from Vienna in the direction of Potocari." I take Vienna
23 to be Srebrenica. Is it correct, ma'am?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no. Srebrenica, correct.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. West.
1 MS. WEST: Thank you.
2 Q. So let's move to July 11th, in the morning hours, after you and
3 your family have left the apartment. To where did you go?
4 A. My family and I and everyone else who lived in that building and
5 in the buildings around us, everybody headed towards Potocari, the
6 UNPROFOR compound. And we didn't know where we would go on next. Maybe
7 Potocari, but for that moment we were going towards the UNPROFOR
9 Q. At some point before you started going to Potocari, were you
10 separated from your husband, your brothers, and your two oldest sons?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Where --
13 A. In peacetime it used to be a petrol station just before the gates
14 of the UNPROFOR compound. We reached that point when we saw a doctor
15 going down the street, through the crowd, and asking the young men to
16 return, some of them, to the hospital to put the wounded on the trucks
17 because the hospital was full of wounded people. At that moment, shells
18 started falling into the crowd, and it was a huge mass of people with
19 many children there. The children started screaming. There was complete
20 chaos. Nobody could control it anymore. And as we had agreed earlier,
21 my father-in-law, my youngest son and myself headed towards the UNPROFOR
22 compound, whereas my brothers, my husband, my eldest son, and the son of
23 my in-laws headed left of the petrol station towards Susnjari. We didn't
24 even have time to say good-bye. We just followed our earlier agreement,
25 and we didn't even say good-bye.
1 When we got to about 50 metres away from the UNPROFOR compound,
2 the shells were still falling. And in that chaos, nobody knew where
3 anybody else was. People were falling from the explosions, from the
4 shrapnel, some from fear. The heat was insufferable. Some people were
5 just fainting right outside the gate of the UNPROFOR compound.
6 Q. Did you yourself suffer an injury?
7 A. One shell fell across the wire fence that surrounded the
8 compound, and one shell fell opposite us on a hard surface, on concrete.
9 All of us fell to the ground. That's how close we were. I thought my
10 son and my father-in-law were killed because nobody was getting up for
11 the longest time. And after a while, those who were not injured started
12 getting on their feet.
13 My son was so pale, white as a sheet, and he looked terrible, as
14 did my father-in-law, but they were not injured. I myself was. I was
15 wounded in my right shoulder blade, and I was bleeding. My son got very
16 frightened at the sight of blood. And I took my kerchief off my head. I
17 was wearing it to protect myself from the sun, and perhaps that kerchief
18 saved my life at the time, because there was a lot of shrapnel in the
19 black -- in the back of my kerchief, and a lot of shrapnel got caught in
20 that kerchief and in the jumper I was wearing. The shrapnel that got to
21 my shoulder blade was stopped by the top of my jumper and remained there.
22 The wound itself was an entry and exit wound. There was no
23 embedded shrapnel in me.
24 And when the shelling stopped, chaos continued. People were
25 going in and out of the UNPROFOR compound. They didn't know what to do.
1 Nobody knew what was going on. It was complete chaos. Crying,
2 screaming, panic, commotion. It's very hard to describe what was going.
3 Q. Ma'am, at some --
4 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West.
5 MS. WEST: Sorry.
6 JUDGE KWON: Could you clarify with the witness which UN compound
7 we are talking about.
8 MS. WEST: Thank you very much, Mr. President.
9 Q. When you speak of this compound, is this the compound near
10 Srebrenica, Bravo Company, or is this the compound in Potocari?
11 A. The one closer to Srebrenica still.
12 Q. At some point thereafter did the crowd begin to move towards the
13 UN compound in Potocari?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And -- and the distance between the Bravo Company UN compound
16 Srebrenica and the Potocari compound, it's about 4 kilometres; is that
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you move along with the crowd?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Why did you leave? Why did you move to Potocari?
22 A. Well, after staying for several hours in that UNPROFOR compound
23 and in the street, we heard the sound of aeroplanes at some point, and
24 the soldiers of UNPROFOR, who were on an APC, were unable to communicate
25 with us. We didn't understand each other, but they motioned towards the
1 sky, the aeroplanes, and we understood that these planes would be bombing
2 Serb positions around. And they also showed us that we should go to
3 Potocari, all of us. And the mass of people obeyed. Some people started
4 first and, as it goes with large crowds, others followed, and that's how
5 we all took the real asphalt road that leads to Potocari.
6 Q. Ma'am, as you walked, as we understand it was with your younger
7 son and your father-in-law with you, did you carry any bags?
8 A. No, because when I got wounded, I did not feel my right arm
9 anymore. I was unable to carry my bag. My priority was my son. I held
10 his hand with my left hand, and I forgot about the bag. I left it where
11 it was.
12 Q. Can you describe what happened on this 4 kilometre walk as you
13 went to the compound.
14 A. Yes. In the beginning of our journey from the base, at the very
15 outset when we were still hearing those planes I mentioned, close to the
16 football pitch by the compound we could still hear the planes, but they
17 were farther and farther as we walked. They must have been close to
18 Zalazje. I know that area. We heard several explosions and continued on
19 our way.
20 In the beginning it was a disorganised crowd, but in a while a
21 column formed, because of course people walked at a different pace. They
22 were elderly people and children who couldn't walk fast, and the women
23 had to stay with the children.
24 At any rate, a column formed over a stretch of the road, and the
25 shells were falling all the time on both sides of the road. I can't say
1 they were hitting the road itself and the crowd, at least not where I
2 was, but they were falling close to the road on both sides.
3 Some people were wounded not so seriously. They were able to go
4 on walking. A few people were killed. But really, believe me when I say
5 that nobody was able to carry or help anyone else. You were only
6 concerned about getting out of there alive. You didn't know whether you
7 yourself would make it to Potocari.
8 A woman got killed close to me. She was just covered with a
9 blanket and left by the side of the road. There was nobody around me
10 that I knew at the time, only my youngest son and my father-in-law. And
11 we went on for about a kilometre and a half outside Potocari when two
12 UNPROFOR trucks caught up with us. The trucks were traveling slowly, so
13 they could see everything very well, and they couldn't drive fast through
14 the crowd. But the people made way for the trucks, so they were able to
15 go faster than the people. And the tarpaulins of the trucks were torn.
16 So I saw my eldest son and a friend of his on one of the trucks. This
17 other boy was my son's close friend in Srebrenica. I was surprised to
18 see him on that truck, but he saw me, too, and raised his hand in
19 recognition. And then the trucks drove on. That was not far from the
20 Potocari UNPROFOR compound.
21 Q. Let's talk about what happened when you arrived at the Potocari
22 compound. Were you able to get into -- inside the UN base itself, inside
23 the fence?
24 A. No.
25 Q. So where did you go?
1 A. Well, on the barricade itself, it wasn't really a barricade. We
2 called it that. That was a band that was put up there by the UNPROFOR
4 They had an interpreter there who explained to us that we who
5 were arriving could not stay at the base that was already brimming with
6 people. There was no room for anybody else. So we should look for a
7 place elsewhere. There was a complex of factories there. There was the
8 factory of the 11th of March where I worked just before the war, then the
9 transport company, the Feros company and so on. So these areas in front
10 of the factories were where people had to stay because as they were
11 arriving they had nowhere else to go.
12 Q. Were you able to get inside one of the factories?
13 A. Well, again with my son and my father-in-law, I managed to get
14 back to one of the factories. At that first gate I managed to get in.
15 My son was very frightened. I was wounded, and I thought somehow that
16 we'd be safer if we were indoors. How do I explain this? Although that
17 room did not have any windows or anything. These were former offices.
18 When I got in there were other women and children there, elderly
19 men, then other women who were without children. They were standing
20 within the compound of that factory.
21 It was important at least to find shelter for the children so
22 that they would not spend that night out in the open. So I spent the
23 night there with my son.
24 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West, I'm noting the time. How much longer
25 would you need? Shall we take a break now.
1 MS. WEST: I think that would be an idea, but if I can ask for
2 the Court's indulgence. I know this witness would like to have a break
3 at the end of the direct as well.
4 JUDGE KWON: So why don't we take a break now.
5 MS. WEST: Okay. Thank you.
6 JUDGE KWON: So, ma'am, we're going to take a break for about
7 half an hour. We'll resume probably about five past 11.00. You now may
8 be -- you may now be excused.
9 [The witness stands down]
10 JUDGE KWON: In the meantime, there's another matter I would like
11 to deal with in private session.
12 Yes, you may be excused, Madam Malagic.
13 Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.
14 [Private session] [Confidentiality partially lifted by order of Chamber]
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 The Chamber found the site visit to Sarajevo to be invaluable and
17 was greatly assisted by it. It is therefore considering organising a
18 site visit to locations in Srebrenica. At this stage, and due to the
19 number of municipalities covered in the indictment and the different
20 nature of allegations in relation thereto, the Chamber is not presently
21 envisaging visiting locations in the municipalities but would like to
22 hear from the parties on this issue as well.
23 As was done with the previous visit, I would therefore ask that
24 parties file submissions addressing the following matters:
25 1) whether a visit to the municipalities covered in the
1 indictment would be beneficial;
2 2) to identify the proposed locations to be included in the site
3 visit and a preliminary itinerary of the same;
4 3) to identify the participants in the visit; and,
5 4) any other relevant matters.
6 The Chamber asks that these submissions be filed confidentially
7 no later than Tuesday, 31st of January, 2012.
21 [Open session]
22 THE REGISTRAR: We're now in open session.
23 JUDGE KWON: After this break would the Defence need another
24 break after the conclusion of her testimony in chief?
25 MR. ROBINSON: No, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll take a break for half an hour and
2 resume at 10 past 11.00.
3 --- Recess taken at 10.38 a.m.
4 --- On resuming at 11.11 a.m.
5 [The witness takes the stand]
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. West, please continue.
7 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
8 Q. Ma'am, when, we stopped earlier, we were discussing the fact that
9 you and your son went into one of the factories on the 11th. When you
10 were inside the factory, where was your father-in-law?
11 A. Well, my father-in-law was within the same factory compound
12 except that he was outside the factory. Actually, we were divided by
13 this window that wasn't really there. There wasn't any glass or
14 anything. It was on the ground floor. We could communicate except for
15 the fact that we were indoors and he was outside within the factory
17 Q. And this is during the day of July 11th. Can you tell us whether
18 anything noteworthy happened during the night of July 11th while you were
19 in the factory?
20 A. Well, that night of the 11th of July while we were in the factory
21 was peaceful. We can put it that way. There were short bursts of
22 gunfire that could be heard somewhere around us, but it wasn't really
23 within the compound where I was.
24 In the early evening shells fell, but not into Potocari. But -
25 how do I put this? - above Djogazi, the village of Djogazi, below Caus,
1 at the location of Likari where the separation lines were basically,
2 where UNPROFOR used to be stationed. At any rate, that is where shelling
3 was heard from, and that is the only thing that was memorable as far as
4 the early evening of the 11th of July is concerned, but the night itself
5 was peaceful until the morning.
6 Q. Okay. Let's move to the next morning, so that would be the
7 morning of July 12th. During that morning and into the afternoon, did
8 you see any Bosnian Serb soldiers mingling with the crowds?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what were they doing?
11 A. Well, at first in the morning, I don't know exactly when, it was
12 9.00 or 10.00, I think, from the direction of Djogazi and Peciste, this
13 other village up there, that is what I could see. I mean, that's the
14 first time I saw these Serb soldiers because old houses were on fire,
15 haystacks and some straw as well as some sheaves of wheat. They were
16 getting closer and closer to the centre of Potocari itself. After that
17 they were firing again. This was celebratory gunfire. We knew that
18 these were Serb soldiers as they were getting closer to us, and then they
19 started mingling with the people. At the moment -- or, rather, at the
20 compound where I was, they were walking around. They were asking people
21 where our soldiers were, where our houses were, where our children were,
22 where our sons were, questions like that. What we decided to do now. Do
23 we know what lay in store for us. One soldier said quite literally to me
24 and a woman who was next to me -- actually he walked into this room, he
25 was a neighbour of hers and they knew each other well, he said, Go to
1 Tuzla. You will be evacuated probably in the direction of Tuzla, and be
2 sure that you're going to see a scenario like this one over there soon
4 So, in the morning hours and around midday, they were walking
5 around asking people questions. At that point in time they didn't really
6 touch anyone, if you will, until the afternoon. In the afternoon they
7 started taking groups of men out. They were questioning them. They were
8 taking them out to these houses that were behind factory. There were
9 private houses there, too, and also there was a cornfield. There was a
10 metal plaque there. It was taken from the fence. And before that, on
11 the 11th of July, we went to get water from there. There were toilets
12 there. We took children to the toilet and so on.
13 However, on the 12th of July, in the afternoon, I went out there
14 again to take my son to the toilet, and I was worried. I was deep in my
15 own thoughts, and I didn't really look carefully, and as I got to that
16 fence, perhaps only a few metres away, I saw soldiers all of a sudden who
17 stood there in the area that we were passing by. These soldiers did not
18 say anything to me. One of them simply waved his hand, showing me that I
19 should move away. Only Serb soldiers were there who were in uniform for
20 the most part. There weren't any of our people there in these houses.
21 Of course, they would not allow people to pass by those houses.
22 I went back to where I had set out from, and I didn't go there
24 So during that entire early evening they were taking groups of
25 men out, and they were being questioned. That's what I could see in
1 front of the compound. Efendic was questioned, for instance, Hamed. And
2 then he was take away. And then Salihovic Ahmo. He was also taken out.
3 And then the son of a colleague of mine was taken out. She brought him
4 to Potocari. He was questioned twice, and the third time they took him
5 out he was never returned again. For the most part, these people who
6 they took out were never returned, these people who were taken out
7 towards these houses out of these masses of people, but they were never
8 returned again. That is when that night fell too.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all other
10 microphones please be switched off when the witness is speaking. Thank
12 MS. WEST:
13 Q. Ma'am, on that evening did you sleep?
14 A. No. No. There was no chance of sleep that night. I hadn't
15 slept the previous night either. I just sat there, and that night as
17 Q. Now, by the morning of the 13th, the following day, what was your
18 state of mind? What did you want to do? Did you want to stay or leave?
19 A. Well, after surviving that kind of night in Potocari, I, and I
20 think all others, wanted to get to this UNPROFOR barricade, as we called
21 it a moment ago, to enter that area and to be evacuated as we had been
22 promised earlier on. The promise was that everybody would be evacuated.
23 I was informed in the early evening of the 12th that the first
24 buses or trucks, I'm not sure, had already taken some people -- or,
25 rather, women. First women with babies. That is what they said. And
1 then all of us all of a sudden wanted to leave and to get to these buses
2 as soon as possible, these trucks, to leave this compound, this chaotic
3 situation that we were in with our children. The temperature was high.
4 There wasn't any food. It was very hard for the children. There was no
5 milk for the children. Nothing could keep in that kind of temperature.
6 Because of this fear during that night, everyone wanted to leave
7 as soon as possible. And everyone wanted to leave at the same time.
8 Q. So let's talk about your leaving Potocari on the 13th. At some
9 point did you, your youngest son, and your father-in-law walk towards the
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And once you got past what you called the barricade or the red
13 ribbon did you see the buses?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In which direction were they facing?
16 A. All the buses and trucks were facing Bratunac. They were parked
17 facing Bratunac.
18 Q. As you -- as you approached the buses, was your father-in-law
19 walking next to you?
20 A. Yes. But before the buses, as we were walking towards the buses,
21 at that moment, from Bratunac a vehicle arrived. Perhaps I'm not going
22 to describe it properly, I don't know. It looked like a jeep to me. It
23 was open. It didn't have a roof. These Serb soldiers were armed, were
24 in that vehicle, and among them there was an old man. I knew that man.
25 All the other locals knew him too. My father-in-law knew him in
1 particular, because they worked together at Sase Srebrenica, the Zinc
2 mine. This was Ilija Petrovic.
3 He was insulting us, cursing us, swearing at us, cursing our
4 Balija mothers. He said, "Now go to your Alija, you'll fare a lot
5 better. Had you listened to Babo, you would not be living through
6 everything that you've been living through." A lot of insults. At that
7 time my father-in-law just said to me: "Now we're certainly done in."
8 He probably wanted to say that we'd never see each other again.
9 Q. What happened to your father-in-law?
10 A. After that vehicle passed, there were Serb soldiers standing
11 again who were separating men from us women. Women and children went to
12 the right-hand side towards the buses, to the right of the buses, and all
13 the men were being taken to the left. That is when they took my
14 father-in-law and also my sister's husband, then other relatives, many
15 relatives who were nearby and who had passed this barricade together with
16 us. I know all of them. And for the most part they took them to this
17 white house, as they called it. However, as we were walking towards the
18 buses, as soon as this bridge was passed - how do I put it? - in the yard
19 they had to discard their bags. I saw my father-in-law throw away his
20 bag, that's what the orders were, and then they walked towards the house
21 without anything.
22 We went on towards the bus and then we could no longer see from
23 the buses. Now, whether they went to the house or above the house, what
24 happened to these people after that we could no longer see.
25 Q. Ma'am, have you ever seen your father-in-law again?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you successfully get on a bus with your son?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Was your sister on the same bus?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Mrs. Malagic, when was the last time you saw your husband, Salko?
7 A. Well, as for my husband as well as my children, I last saw them
8 when we parted in Srebrenica, as I said a moment ago, in front of the
9 UNPROFOR compound when we went our separate ways. I never saw them
11 Q. And how old was your husband at the time?
12 A. Well, 44, I think. He was 44 years old. Forty-four, 45 --
13 Q. Now, at some point --
14 A. -- almost.
15 Q. Thank you. At some point in recent years did you receive notice
16 that his remains had been recovered?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. When did you get that?
19 A. Sometime in the beginning of June 2009. 2009 I received
20 notification concerning my husband first. That was somehow just before
21 the funerals. So I just went there for the identification process, and I
22 had to sign these papers and so on.
23 Four months after that I received another summons from Tuzla to
24 go and identify my younger son, which I did. So we had these memorial
25 services for both of -- for both my husband and son and they were both
1 buried at the memorial centre in Potocari. My father-in-law was buried a
2 few years before that. I don't know exactly. And a week before I
3 received this information concerning my arrival in The Hague, I was
4 called from Tuzla. I was told to come for notification again, that --
5 namely, that my older son had been found too. I haven't done that yet.
6 I decided to take care of this in The Hague first because I didn't know
7 how would I feel after all of this torment that I would go through in
8 Tuzla again. It is not easy to go through that kind of thing there.
9 Q. Ma'am, in regard to your middle son Admir, the one you indicated
10 that you had last seen at Srebrenica, how old was he at the time?
11 A. When Srebrenica fell, he was 15 years old and 5 months.
12 Q. And the older son that you just mentioned that you very recently
13 received the notification that his remains have been recovered, how old
14 when you -- was he when you saw him for the last time?
15 A. He was about six years older than this other son. So my eldest
16 was about 20 years old. He was five years older, five to six years older
17 than Admir.
18 Q. And your youngest son, your surviving son, the one who was with
19 you in Potocari, how old was he then when you were in the Potocari
21 A. He was 10 at the time, turning on 11.
22 Q. And where does he live now?
23 A. My son lives in Vogosca now as I do. We're both renting a place.
24 We're waiting to get more permanent housing. There's a building that is
25 supposed to be completed. The construction is supposed to be completed
1 in June. And he's married. He has a son, and they live in Vogosca.
2 Q. When Srebrenica was shelled in July 1995 and you made your way to
3 Potocari, you were pregnant; is that right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. When did you give birth?
6 A. My daughter was born on the 21st of January, 1996. So the other
7 day she turned 16 while I was here.
8 Q. And what was the condition of her health when she was born?
9 A. Well, all the problems and all the torment that I went through
10 throughout my pregnancy and the horrors in Srebrenica that we went
11 through left a mark on my daughter so that when she was born, she was not
12 a healthy baby. We spent a lot of time in hospital in Tuzla. She also
13 had problems with her hips. While they were treating one hip, the other
14 hip turned bad and there were complications. So then we ended up in
15 Sarajevo. I took her everywhere, seen all the doctors, but she had to
16 undergo surgery so that she had three operations on the right hip.
17 We spent up to three and a half months in hospital, and then it
18 would be followed by six months of rehabilitation, and then on one
19 occasion she was infected. She -- she got an infection after the
20 surgery, and she barely survived, but thanks to the doctors and my
21 efforts, I managed to save her and bring her up so that she's not a
22 handicapped person today, but she is under constant medical control. She
23 would undergo physical therapy in the winter and then during the summer
24 vacation she would also have to go to a spa for rehabilitation. All of
25 this as recommended by the doctors who treated her.
1 So right now her condition is relatively good. She attends
2 school, but she cannot do physical education because she is a handicapped
3 person in a way, so she has to take these exams, these subjects, she has
4 to take them theoretically in order to receive a grade.
5 Q. And, ma'am, do you still own your home on the Drina River near
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How often do you go back there?
9 A. Well, in the summertime frequently. Last year I went on many
10 occasions, but I don't go on a regular basis. Whenever I feel homesick I
11 go there. And then I go to the memorial centre, and on those occasions I
12 also go to our house. But one of the reasons why I avoid going there
13 more frequently is that the memories are very painful. When I walk into
14 the house, it's really painful.
15 I did patch up the house so that I can spend the night there if I
16 need to, a day or two or five, for as long as I can stay there, but I
17 cannot really take it mentally, because when I go there on my own, my
18 entire life I see before my -- me, and then it's really difficult. So
19 what I do is basically I just go to the house, enter, walk around it and
20 then leave. It's just difficult. I can't bear to be there on my own.
21 The memories of my children, my husband, the life that I had before 1992,
22 all of that weighs heavily on me.
23 Q. Thank you, Mrs. Malagic. I have no further questions.
24 MS. WEST: And, Mr. President, I wonder if we might inquire
25 whether the witness is feeling okay to continue.
1 JUDGE KWON: I'll do that.
2 MS. WEST: Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Madam Malagic, your testimony in previous case
4 which you gave 12 years ago was admitted in lieu of your
5 examination-in-chief in this case as well, and in addition to further
6 questions asked by Ms. West, you will now be cross-examined by
7 Mr. Karadzic, but before that would you like to take a break? Otherwise,
8 we'll take break at half past 12.00.
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, we can wait for the regular
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. Good
14 morning. I wish good morning to everyone.
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
16 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, to you, Ms. Malagic.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. First of all, I would like to express my solidarity for your loss
19 and the suffering that you went through, and my gratitude for agreeing to
20 see my assistant who interviewed you. And in view of what you have gone
21 through, I would rather not put any questions to you. However, your
22 statement is rather broad and there are just several things that I would
23 appreciate it if you could help us to clarify them and get a full
24 picture. So I do have to put some questions to you.
25 Now, first of all, is it correct that the crisis in your village,
1 Voljavica, began sometime after the 12th of May?
2 A. In my village, even before the 12th of May, the crisis was in --
3 the crisis was there, but I don't know what happened because I left
4 Voljavica on the 12th of May already.
5 Q. Thank you. Do you agree --
6 JUDGE KWON: What year are we talking about?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1992. That is the year that
8 Ms. West began questioning the witness about.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Is it correct that on the 8th of May the Green Berets and the
12 Patriotic League -- or, rather, the Muslim fighters, killed Judge Zekic
13 near Potocari?
14 A. I cannot answer your question, because at the time I was in
15 Voljavica, and the event that you are describing, according to what
16 people said, was in the area between Potocari and Srebrenica, and at the
17 time I really did not have any information as to what was happening
19 Q. Thank you. Well, you don't need to have this information, but
20 that's why I'd like to clarify this to have a full picture.
21 A. One evening, not far from my house we saw a column going from
22 Bratunac, a column of vehicles. It didn't take very long. I don't know
23 how much time it took. And then it went back to Bratunac. We didn't
24 know what this was all about, but we heard from a man who lived in
25 Pobrdje and whose house was in the vicinity of some houses of Serbs
1 because there were both Serb and Muslim houses in that village. So we
2 heard stories from him that he learned that Zekic was killed there, that
3 he was in that column, and that he was -- that, in fact, it was him who
4 was being taken in that column for his funeral.
5 Q. I see. So you saw this funeral convoy, but did you hear that
6 when he was killed that he was driving in his own private vehicle?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Thank you. Now, do you know -- you mentioned Hranca, Hranca is
9 the outskirts of Bratunac; is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know that the Novi Sad Corps that you mention in your
12 various statements was deployed there as regular JNA forces and that it
13 began its withdrawal towards Yugoslavia?
14 A. No. If you allow me to explain this, I know where Hranca is, and
15 I also know that the Novi Sad Corps was stationed in Bratunac at the
16 time, Mr. Karadzic, and at that time, Mr. Karadzic, the work obligation
17 was declared in Bratunac. My sister-in-law worked in a company there,
18 and for six days she went to work, and she experienced this. She met
19 these troops, and we heard that they were from the Novi Sad Corps, and I
20 consider, it's my opinion, that up until that time there had never been
21 any troops in Bratunac or in that area overall. My brother, my husband,
22 my relatives, they all served their military service in Belgrade,
23 Novi Sad, in Serbia and in other parts of the country. So there were no
24 regular troops in that area up until then.
25 Now, why they had come then, I really don't know. I don't think
1 that they were trying to defend us, because had they done that, we
2 wouldn't have gone through what we did.
3 Q. Thank you. But in your statements you confirmed, didn't you,
4 that you had been told that the JNA was in Bosnia in order to separate
5 the fighting Muslims and Serbs; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that these Novi Sad Corps units had
8 come from Central Bosnia and that they were on their way to Yugoslavia?
9 A. I'm not sure of their journey. I cannot see how Novi Sad Corps
10 could be from Central Bosnia and then be withdrawing towards Yugoslavia
11 and towards Novi Sad. I cannot really answer that question. Now, where
12 they had come to Bratunac from, I really don't know, because I was in
13 Voljavica, in my village. But the first explanation, the first thing
14 that we were told by your own people, by Serbs, was that this was the
15 corps that was allegedly there to keep the peace in Bratunac. But we
16 weren't even able to go to Bratunac anymore, so what kind of peace they
17 were trying to keep there I really don't know, and I wonder who it is
18 that they were supposed to protect in Bratunac.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we just clarify one thing? Would you agree that
20 the fact that the corps had its headquarters in Novi Sad, that the JNA
21 had as its area of responsibility the entire territory of the former
22 Yugoslavia? So the Novi Sad Corps would not stay in Novi Sad alone. It
23 would be deployed as necessary, as required.
24 MS. WEST: Mr. President.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. West.
1 MS. WEST: This is not the witness for this type of question.
2 She is a --
3 JUDGE KWON: I agree, Ms. West. Let us move on.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I withdraw my question.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Do you know that in Hranca this convoy that was headed for
7 Yugoslavia, this convoy was attacked and some soldiers were killed?
8 A. No.
9 Q. This was on the 3rd or the 4th of May, and you never heard that
10 there was an attack on a convoy that was moving and that -- that was not
11 in combat deployment? You didn't hear of that withdrawal?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Thank you. Did Voljavica have their own units or was it
15 A. Voljavica did not have any units of its own, that's for sure. I
16 don't know exactly what the date was, but your forces, your
17 representatives from Bratunac, came one day, one morning, and they issued
18 an ultimatum. They said if anybody had any weapons that they should
19 surrender them, and at their head was a police officer. He was a police
20 officer in peacetime. I knew him. His name was Miladin. I was really
21 surprised to see him there. But in any case, he was there with a number
22 of soldiers, and they came to the school, and they said that we should
23 inform everyone that they should surrender their weapons. And on that
24 day, everyone, all those people who had weapons for which they had
25 permits, they -- they surrendered them. So that Voljavica did not have a
1 unit, nor could it defend itself. It didn't have anything to do it with.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you know Ekrem Malagic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Do you know that he was conferred --
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. -- awarded a golden lily posthumously?
8 A. No.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Karadzic, please put a pause.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies --
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I think the witness answered the
12 question by saying no. Yes, please continue.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. You said that you didn't know that he was posthumously awarded
15 the highest wartime -- well, because the way we form negative sentences
16 and the way it's done in English, because that's different, your answer
17 was no, you didn't know; correct?
18 A. Yes. I did not know.
19 Q. Thank you. Did you know Osman Malagic?
20 A. Yes. He was my brother-in-law.
21 Q. Did you know that he was a prominent military commander of one of
22 the units of the 28th Division?
23 A. Well, all I can say is this: This brother-in-law of mine was
24 killed at the very beginning, early on, and I don't know when he could
25 have become such a great commander. I don't think he had enough time.
1 All he had was this big desire, which he did, and he had a group of young
2 men with him and they were going to their own house on the Drina River.
3 That's where they were headed. They didn't have any weapons with them.
4 Now, if they had any kind of contraptions or anything that was
5 sort of improvised, I don't know, but I know that he was killed on that
6 day on his way to his home.
7 Q. Osman Malagic was killed on the 12th of June [as interpreted],
8 1992, wasn't he, and on the 24th of May, 1994, he was awarded this
9 decoration posthumously? Did you know that?
10 A. Well, I didn't know that and I don't think it's correct anyway.
11 I'm sure his wife would know that, because she's here in Holland.
12 Q. Instead of June it should say the 12th of July. The month is
13 wrongly recorded in the transcript.
14 Now, did you know Hazim Calagic?
15 A. No.
16 Q. And you don't know that he was the commander of the
17 Independent Battalion in Voljavica from the 11th of December, 1992,
18 through the 14th of January, 1993?
19 A. Mr. Karadzic, I've already explained all the trouble and the
20 difficulties that I had at that time, 1992/1993, and all the difficulties
21 that I had to go through together with my family. So I've already
22 described that. I didn't know anything about soldiers, and I couldn't
23 really answer your questions about someone being a commander somewhere.
24 I did not have that information, nor am I competent to answer those
25 questions. I'm not sure.
1 Q. Thank you. I understand that, but it is important for the
2 Defence to establish on what basis you provided certain information that
3 had nothing to do with your family, matters that you mention in your
4 statements that deal with and have to do with the army. So I'm just
5 trying to find out what it was that you did know and what you didn't
7 Now, I will read out the names of the commanders of this
8 independent battalion. I will not mention the times when they were
9 commanders. Just tell me if you knew them.
10 Did you know Mithat Salihovic?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Did you know Safet Omerovic?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Zajko Alic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Muharem Husic?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Fikret Cvrk?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Omerovic Mirzet?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Well, these were commanders and some of them were assistants for
23 morale of the independent Voljavica battalion. Did you know that the
24 Voljavica Independent Battalion existed and that it was awarded
25 decorations and that it participated in all military operations?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Thank you. Did you know Hajrudin Malagic?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Did you know that he, too, was a fighter?
5 A. Well, how can I describe this to you? All the people there, not
6 only Hajrudin Malagic, who was a relative of my husband's, but all these
7 young men who felt that they were able bodied, in the end they were
8 forced, they had to try and protect their families when they were
9 attacked. When we were under attack, when we were already in Srebrenica,
10 when they had to go searching for food to bring a sack of corn from
11 Voljavica, they went there as some sort of security. I don't know what
12 to call them. They were just trying to protect their families, their
13 brothers, sisters, fathers, mothers, and so on. But calling them
14 fighters or an armed unit, I don't think that's proper, and I don't think
15 that's what they was -- that's what they were. At least not at that time
16 in the beginning of the war.
17 Q. Thank you. Hajrudin's father Enes, is he your husband's brother?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So he was a cousin?
20 A. Yes. He was my father -- father's in law cousin.
21 Q. Thank you. Did you know Behudin Malagic?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Orhan's son?
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I'm struggling to understand the point
25 of this line of questions. Please move on to your next topic.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, this family was a
2 prominent family. It was a military family, and they made a major
3 contribution to the fighting, and this is from a chronicle of the
4 2nd Corps, the -- a chronicle drafted by the Muslim side. Now, I
5 understand that this witness may not know everything, but that's what I'm
6 trying to establish, what it is that she does know what she doesn't know.
7 So not about what she had gone through with her family, she and her
8 family. But she also provided some answers to general questions, and I
9 just want to establish what it is that she does or doesn't know.
10 JUDGE KWON: If you'd like, you may put your case to the witness
11 and then move on to your next topic.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency, but in that
13 case I -- the Defence will be handicapped, because if the witness is
14 unwilling to co-operate with the Defence, then we cannot really get the
15 right answer.
16 Now, I will move to another topic.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Ms. Malagic, is it correct that the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina
19 began on the 6th of April, and five weeks after that, you left your
21 A. Mr. Karadzic, the war broke out long before I set off from my
22 village. We, my family and I and almost everyone, we were in Voljavica
23 almost as prisoners. At the time, I still worked in my company, but the
24 first barricades were set up then, and we couldn't go through them. We
25 couldn't move further. There was this disarming, and we were not allowed
1 to get to Pobrdje. There were also barricades at Bjelovac, as far as I
2 know, because I was told -- this was recounted by others. I never went
3 there myself. But a week later - I don't know exactly what date it
4 was - the work obligation was declared but only for those people who
5 received the call-ups. Not everyone received them, and I don't know why
6 these particular people received these call-up -- these call-ups, because
7 not everyone did.
8 So we stayed in our homes. But before that, as you pointed out,
9 we could see with our own eyes, and then later we could also hear from
10 others, and I confirm that this was correct thereby, because in Hranca I
11 had a sister-in-law, and there was a sister-in-law and a brother in
12 another village in the area, and they all had already experienced what we
13 didn't in Hranca, not yet -- in Voljavica, not yet, because I know that
14 all the houses were torched in Hranca, that Glogova was burned down
15 completely. There was no looting, but the barns and stables were torched
16 together with the cattle. My sister-in-law was outside working on her
17 land when a zolja was thrown into her house. She managed to pull out her
18 kid from the house and then to withdraw and run away, escape, together
19 with her kid. So people were already being killed, expelled. You could
20 see all this glare and the flames in the sky because the thing was -- the
21 village was burning.
22 I was told by another sister-in-law that her house had been
23 torched. She managed to escape because she was outside of her house.
24 So Hranca was torched. Glogova was torched. This was done by
25 your soldiers. And that's how they came to Bratunac.
1 On the 10th of May they set on fire the village of Mihajlevici.
2 Q. We'll get to that. Please, in line 16 you said that the MUP, the
3 police, was disarmed, but that is not in the transcript. That's on the
4 previous page, 55. They were disarmed; right?
5 A. I heard it from the policeman who came to our house. I told you
6 I don't know the date. There was this policeman, Muja Husic, who was a
7 regular policeman in Bratunac. And also Mirsad.
8 Q. All right. Tell me, is it true that you were told that there are
9 paramilitaries in Bratunac whom they have to expel and during that time,
10 the time it takes, the civilians must go to the stadium?
11 A. There were no paramilitaries. They told us as much. As far as
12 civilians are concerned, all those villages that were torched,
13 Mihajlevici, Redzici, and others, people from there were taken to the
14 stadium in Bratunac.
15 My sister-in-law told me that they had been taken to Bratunac
16 first and from Bratunac they were taken different ways. Men were taken
17 to the school in Karadzici and the women and children were evacuated
18 towards Tuzla. That was happening while we were still in our village
20 Q. Did you know that there was a Patriotic League in Bratunac? You
21 can answer yes or no. I don't mind if it's no.
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you know that people from Bratunac went for illegal training
24 conducted by the MUP of Croatia and your Muslim neighbour complained
25 about that because that was frightening the Serbs?
1 A. No, I don't know about that.
2 Q. Can you tell us who was killed in Hranca on the occasion and how
3 many people were killed?
4 A. I do not know many of those people by name, and people were
5 killed. You can probably hear that and check it with the witnesses from
6 there. I know that people were killed, but how many I can't tell. I
7 don't know. The people who did not manage to escape in time were
8 probably killed in their own houses. I didn't know those people. I only
9 visited occasionally my sister-in-law.
10 Q. So you can't tell us either the names or the number?
11 A. No, I can't.
12 Q. Thank you. What was the date? Was it the 3rd or the 4th of May
13 when that column was attacked?
14 A. I don't know the date when they torched the village of Hranca.
15 I'm not sure about the date.
16 Q. Thank you. So after that you went to Srebrenica. You say that
17 you found Srebrenica empty except for stray dogs, and there was the
18 stench of burning. Who set Srebrenica on fire and devastated it?
19 A. Serbs did. I don't know whether they were soldiers or the
20 inhabitants of Srebrenica. In any case, it was the Serbs, because they
21 were the only ones in Srebrenica at the time.
22 Q. What kind of troops did you find in Srebrenica when you arrived?
23 A. I did not.
24 Q. And where were the Serb residents?
25 A. At that time while we were still at home, next door to my house,
1 and you must know this perfectly well, there was a road through
2 Srebrenica, Sase, Zalazje and on towards Bratunac. An enormous number of
3 trucks and cars was passing by my house and going to Bratunac. A van
4 would pass full of soldiers carrying weapons that were trained mostly at
5 us. They were also sitting on the bonnets of vehicles.
6 Q. Madam, with all due respect we'll get to that. Now we are in
7 Srebrenica. You've just arrived. It's empty. There are only stray
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And traces of fire. Which army did you find there when you came
12 A. Well, those first people who came down to Srebrenica, the first
13 soldiers, didn't find anybody. It was empty. The first people to come
14 had come from the woods where they had retreated earlier. All the real
15 residents of Srebrenica had already fled, because you know how the others
16 fared, all the Muslim residents, I mean.
17 Q. You're talking about July 1992; right?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And where were your Serb neighbours? About 30 per cent of the
20 population of Srebrenica were Serbs; right? Where were they when you
22 A. Well, they had left of their own accord. I tried to explain this
23 earlier. All these trucks brought people who looted everything. Every
24 house was looted. I knew these people. They passed by my house. I
25 don't know where they were going later. To Serbia, probably.
1 You didn't let me explain later. A van full of soldiers would
2 pass my house on one way, and they would all come back with each in their
3 own car. They had Chetnik emblems, insignia, cockades. Who are these
4 people? If they would pass again by my house a few hours later, each in
5 their own car and all the looted property in those cars.
6 I suppose that after the killing of Vekic all your Serb residents
7 left Srebrenica, and Srebrenica was already empty from that time on.
8 Q. When you say they were fleeing, I see that in your first
9 statement from 1995 you said the Serbs had started leaving, and they even
10 carried their own dead to rebury them on the right bank of the
11 Drina River; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. In your estimate, that was out of fear; right?
14 A. I can't say for sure why, but these things did happen. Only they
15 know why they did it at the time.
16 Q. If I tell you that Naser Oric - and we have an intercept of his
17 conversation with Mahmut Cehajic - if I tell you that he said that in
18 early June 1992 he cleansed a few Serb villages with his army, he entered
19 Srebrenica and cleansed it, would you accept that from that time until
20 July 1995 Srebrenica was under his control?
21 MS. WEST: Objection.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, on what -- yes, Ms. West.
23 MS. WEST: I think it's very difficult for this witness with her
24 experience there to comment on an intercept from Naser Oric.
25 JUDGE KWON: He -- I was thinking that he was putting his case.
1 If the witness is able to answer the question, the Chamber is fine with
3 Yes, Ms. Malagic. Can you answer the question?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Let's leave the intercept aside. Is it a fact that from early
7 June 1995 until July 1995 -- sorry, from early June 1992 until July 1995
8 Srebrenica was controlled by the Muslim army?
9 A. I really don't know how to answer this question. When you say
10 "the Muslim army," we probably don't define "army" in the same way, so I
11 would be unable to answer questions of that kind. In my mind, an army is
12 made up of people who are armed, who have logistics, who have support,
13 who have everything. A couple of rifles, a couple of makeshift weapons,
14 empty-handed, without anything, that's not an army. That the Muslim army
15 attacked Srebrenica is absurd, as far as I'm concerned. How could they
16 have been soldiers if they had no weapons? Those people that we are
17 talking about were able-bodied men but no more than that. They were
19 Q. But the Serb soldiers and the Serb authorities did not control
20 Srebrenica between early June or even May 1992 until mid-July 1995. Is
21 that right?
22 A. I don't know what to say. Perhaps they did not control it
23 strictly speaking, but in another way they did because they attacked,
24 because they controlled our lives. We were unable to go out and get
25 food. We had no electricity. We had no food. They controlled all of
1 that, so how can you say they did not control Srebrenica? We could do
2 nothing inside that town. We were like inside a camp.
3 What kind of question is that? There's absolutely no comparison
4 between these two sides. One of them was an army; the other one wasn't.
5 Q. You said those problems occurred on the 5th or 6th of May, but
6 until that time you were left in peace, and you even said that this
7 manager Branko had told you that you were free to work on your land in
8 Voljavica, and he even provided diesel fuel for you.
9 A. He did that together with a neighbour who worked in the
10 cooperative, and since that man, Branko, was the manager of that
11 agricultural cooperative, he himself had a lot of land sown with tobacco.
12 He was given what he needed to -- to plant it.
13 Q. This man Branko was a Serb who lived in Voljavica?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. In your statement of 1995, you say that your residence captured a
16 man by the name of Dragan and turned him over to somebody. In fact, it
17 was the brother of this policeman, Dragan, from Pobrdje.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. So they must have been armed; right?
20 A. You see, our young men, all of our people, stood guard. It was
21 not a real army. They stood guard, protecting their families, their
22 children. And that night, on the Drina River they saw boats carrying
23 something. So they waited for them on the bank of the Drina River, and
24 in one of the boats there was this policeman you mentioned, and they
25 didn't need anything to get hold of this man who was carrying a load of
1 weapons on this boat. They just took the man to the barricade in
2 Pobrdje, and one of the men on that barricade was this Dragan. They were
3 still holding out on these barricades against your authorities. At least
4 they thought they would be able to.
5 Q. On today's transcript on page 13 and earlier in this statement
6 you said that you had arrived in this torched Srebrenica and that the
7 Chetniks attacked Potocari on the 8th of June, and your people had only a
8 few weapons such as hunting rifles and makeshift utensils but they still
9 attacked these soldiers with these improvised weapons.
10 A. That day with whatever they had, they managed somehow, but mainly
11 with their own bodies, because everybody was either killed or seriously
12 wounded on at that day.
13 Q. Who counted these 2.800 shells that fell on Potocari, Peciste and
14 the surrounding villages?
15 A. You could hear that. I don't know. I know that shelling did not
16 stop for a minute that day, because I was there. You couldn't go
17 outside. You had to put a towel across your mouth. A great number of
18 people was killed, and there were wounded, and then the people carrying
19 the wounded would get injured as well because the shells continued
20 falling. And they also listened to your radio communications, and from
21 your own information, we know that on that day around 2.800 to
22 3.000 shells fell on Srebrenica. And the shelling never stopped and it
23 went on from all sides.
24 Q. Do you know how much one shell costs? Five soldiers' monthly
25 salaries. Do you think that Serbs were so generous with shells?
1 A. I know that you played your games with them. I spent five months
2 in Potocari. It was horrible. The shells that fell only on the factory
3 compounds, on houses. There was a house right across the river from me.
4 From the training ground where training took place before the war
5 to Potocari, all the way shells fell on the road, on every house in
6 Budak; in Djogazi; in Donji Potocari, where my family also had a house;
7 in Peciste. Every house was hit and we were able to see all of that. A
8 shell fell on one house this minute and another house the next minute.
9 You could watch all that. And you cannot dispute this because thousands
10 of witnesses can tell you about it. Thousands of shells fell there only
11 while I was there.
12 Q. We'll come to where they fell and who was killed, but you say in
13 June, Hajrudin Osmanovic was killed. Did you know these people who got
15 A. I knew this man Hajrudin, because his brother went to school with
16 me. We were in the same year. That's why I knew him.
17 Q. Whose son was he?
18 A. The son of Mustafa Osmanovic. I think his father's name was
20 Q. Thank you. Did you know this Smajo Mehmedovic who also got
22 A. Yes, he was my neighbour from Voljavica and also a relative, the
23 son of Hasan Mehmedovic who worked at the mine.
24 Q. So Hasan is his father; right?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. And this Resko Husic, is he Rasid's son?
2 A. I don't know. I don't know that.
3 Q. What about this Husein Mehmedovic, did you know him?
4 A. Yes. He's an elderly man.
5 Q. Whose son was he?
6 A. I think his father's name was Smajo. This man got killed,
7 actually went missing later as he was going to get food in Voljavica.
8 He's been missing ever since.
9 Q. What about Sead Masic? Did he get killed too? Whose son was he?
10 A. Of Dzemal Masic. He hasn't been accounted for ever since.
11 Q. Nedzad and Dzemal were his sons; right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Did Nedzad lose his life then as well?
14 A. I don't know. I don't know. But at any rate, all of these
15 people were killed. Their father is also dead.
16 Q. Tell me, this Saban Omerovic, did you know him?
17 A. Well, I knew a man, an elderly man by that name, if we mean the
18 same person.
19 Q. You say that he was killed then.
20 A. Yes, yes, that's it.
21 Q. Do you know whose son he was?
22 A. I don't. I don't. He was an old man. I don't know who his
23 father was.
24 Q. What about this Huso Mehmedovic? Is he Husein's son?
25 A. I don't know. I don't know who you're talking about.
1 Q. Thank you. I'm just looking at your statement to see who lost
2 his life.
3 Now, in your statement you say that your legs were shaking when
4 the shelling started again, because before that there had been a period
5 when there was no shelling; is that right?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. You also said that when the safe haven was
8 proclaimed, when the UN arrived, a better time came, more peaceful; is
9 that right?
10 A. Yes, that's right.
11 Q. Do you know how many soldiers Oric lost during that period time?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you know that Oric's soldiers went out to Serb villages every
14 night, killed Serbs and got killed themselves?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Thank you. I note the time, so I'd like to move on to July 1995.
17 However, perhaps that can wait for the time after the break.
18 Tell me, please, do you know where the Serbs from the surrounding
19 villages were, the villages around Srebrenica? Did they just stay there
20 during the war?
21 A. No. I heard from other people that as far as those who were in
22 Potocari were, where my brothers were, too, their neighbours took them
23 out to Bratunac, to the Yellow Bridge, all of them from Studenac and
24 Cumovici. As for the rest, I don't know. I don't know where they were.
25 That was the village that was the closest to us. There weren't any other
1 Serb villages there anyway around Potocari, I mean near Potocari.
2 Q. Is Studenac a Serb village close to you?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And isn't that right that in July in Potocari you heard two
5 soldiers talking, one of them saying, "Brother," or words to that effect,
6 "it was so easy to liberate my village." He was from Studenac, wasn't
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So he was not in that village from June 1992 until July 1995;
11 A. Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I see the time, so
13 it's for you to decide.
14 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll take a break for an hour, after
15 which I expect you to come to the events of July 1995.
16 We'll resume at 1.30, but before doing that, can I hear from you?
17 I think you can make your submission in open session.
18 MS. WEST: Yes, yes.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 MS. WEST: Mr. President, you had asked about the investigator
21 Tomasz Blaszczyk, and my -- we will have four investigators. He will be
22 the first, testifying today. His testimony is going to regard the
23 360 QuickTime presentation of the road between Bratunac and
24 Konjevic Polje. I will note that before he testifies, the technicians
25 will need 20 minutes to upload the equipment for the presentation. He
1 will be followed by Investigator Ruez who will be talking about all the
2 crime sites. The other two investigators in the case will testify later
3 in the case, and that is both Dusan Janc and Dean Manning. They will be
4 talking about the forensics and Janc will be specifically talking about
5 the DNA.
6 JUDGE KWON: And my question was specifically --
7 MS. WEST: And your question --
8 JUDGE KWON: The content of Mr. Blaszczyk's evidence with respect
9 to updating and discussing the report of Mr. Dean Manning.
10 MS. WEST: And that appears to be incorrect. At this point he is
11 talking about the road between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac, and he will
12 be talking about the Drina Corps collection.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I hope that the Chamber is
17 not going to give me less time than that the -- than the
18 examination-in-chief took. So I should have all of today and tomorrow as
19 well. That's according to 92 ter. The Prosecution spent more than
20 two hours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Are you talking about your cross-examination of
22 Madam Malagic?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, because Blaszczyk has been
24 announced for today.
25 JUDGE KWON: You waste -- you spent already an hour on the issues
1 the relevance of which we doubt. You have exactly a bit more than
2 half an hour, a bit -- I think you may have 35 minutes after the break.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I --
4 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
5 JUDGE KWON: I was corrected. You will have 40 minutes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say a word? If that is
7 unimportant, why is the Prosecution asking for information from 1992
8 through this witness? What matters to the Prosecution matters to the
9 Defence as well.
10 Secondly, the Prosecution spent more than two hours, and I am
11 supposed to spend an hour and a half, and I have 92 ter as well. The
12 entire Krstic transcript. So could I please be given all of the next
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume at 1.30.
16 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.31 p.m.
17 --- On resuming at 1.32 p.m.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I was advised that the Prosecution
19 spent one hour and 35 minutes, and you will have exactly 45 minutes this
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency [In English] But
22 usually with 92 ter, the Defence should have more than the Prosecution
23 because I have the whole transcript from Krstic to deal, let alone the
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber is of the opinion that one
1 and a half hours is more than sufficient for your cross-examination.
2 JUDGE MORRISON: I've made this observation before, Dr. Karadzic,
3 and it's just as true now as it was then: You should really be
4 concentrating on the matters which are contained within the indictment.
5 This isn't an exercise in historical revaluation or an attempt to look at
6 every fact and determine every fact. There are obviously facts which go
7 to the indictment and thus bring into play elements of the law which we
8 have to apply, and by taking a careful look at the indictment and taking
9 advice certainly from Mr. Robinson, it's certainly my view, and I suspect
10 the view of my colleagues that you could focus far more accurately on the
11 facts that are important than you often do, and certainly raising matters
12 which are more appropriate to the issue of tu quoque really doesn't help
13 anybody and do not assist in the determination of this indictment.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency. But I have
15 a feeling that what the Prosecution is presenting has a purpose, an
16 objective, and I'll trying to get to the bottom of that, but I'll try to
17 follow your instructions as well.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mrs. Malagic --
20 JUDGE MORRISON: Mr. Karadzic, I'm not giving you instructions.
21 I'm giving you advice.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Advice, right. Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. In the transcript when you testified in General Krstic's trial,
25 on page 1942, you said that your people during the first shelling wanted
1 to leave Srebrenica because they were afraid that the Serbs would take
2 revenge; right?
3 A. I don't understand this question.
4 Q. Well, you see, on that page, 1942, you said -- I'm now going to
5 read this out in English so that the interpretation is better.
6 "[In English] We were all on our way to Potocari and on the road
7 there were very many people there, and when the Serb soldiers began to
8 shell the town and then they simply wanted to take revenge. People
9 didn't know where to turn, where to go."
10 [Interpretation] Was that the assessment, that the Serbs would
11 take revenge?
12 A. Well, we knew that things didn't look good for us. As soon as
13 the shelling started -- I mean, we had already experienced that before at
14 the beginning of the war, and we knew as soon as the shelling started,
15 when they started shelling people in town itself, as I've already
16 described, everybody thought that it was better to get out as soon as
17 possible, because of course, if one were to get into their hands, I mean
18 we'd probably end up the way other people did in the beginning of the
19 war. What else could we expect.
20 Q. Thank you. Did you know approximately what it was that the Serbs
21 wanted to take their revenge for?
22 A. No. We did not think that they had any major reason for that.
23 In my view, now this is my personal view, if anyone had a reason for
24 revenge, we were such a long-suffering people. Perhaps we had more
25 reason if, I'm saying if, we were to take revenge on anyone.
1 Long-suffering, exhausted. I mean, all the suffering I went through over
2 those three years. They really had no reason for that.
3 Now, what their objectives were, well, we knew that nothing good
4 would come out of it.
5 Q. Thank you. You mentioned that your father-in-law said, "Ah, now
6 we're done in," when he saw this acquaintance of his with whom he was not
7 on very good terms; right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So are you trying to say that it was possible for some of these
10 individuals to settle their own accounts and to take revenge for things
11 that happened long ago?
12 A. Knowing that man, the one that I mentioned - I knew him, too - he
13 was always -- well, how do I put this? Everything he said was supposed
14 to be some kind of a joke, but there was always this nationalist drift
15 even when he made these jokes, and he had conflicts not only with my
16 father-in-law but also with other people who were ethnic Muslims.
17 Q. Thank you. Was he the only person of this kind or were there
18 other people who took advantage of the situation in order to settle their
19 own personal accounts?
20 A. I don't know. In Potocari at that point in time I didn't really
21 see any other acquaintances. I saw Serb soldiers. I saw ethnic Serbs,
22 but I didn't see people I knew when we crossed this UNPROFOR barricade,
23 and before that there were some who were simply watching what was going
24 on. As I said, they walked among the people, but they did not do
25 anything, I mean anything abnormal or bad or whatever. Now, what
1 happened later to these people, I don't know.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is there a microphone on somewhere
4 because I hear more than I would like to. I hear interpretation. [In
5 English] Somewhere a speaker, I suppose, Your Honour, is on. Okay.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. You said today during the examination-in-chief and also in your
8 statements that the people moved and tried to go towards the UN on the
9 10th of June, and you arrived at this first compound, UN compound;
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. However, Srebrenica had not fallen by that time; correct?
13 A. Well, not yet, but the UNPROFOR point was moved. It was at
14 Ljubistivica [phoen], or whatever it was called, where the UNPROFOR
15 soldiers were. They were already -- they already moved from there up
16 until then.
17 Q. Thank you. Was this your own decision or was this something that
18 was suggested by someone in authority, that this would be a good course
19 to follow?
20 A. Do you mean to move towards Srebrenica? What do you mean? I'm
21 not sure what you meant.
22 Q. Well, yes. To move and head for the UN compound on the 10th.
23 A. Well, we were at the elementary school, and we saw that a large
24 number of people had already started moving towards Srebrenica from all
25 those areas, Ucina Basta, Pekara [phoen], Jadar itself. All of those
1 people from those areas had already gone to Srebrenica and they were all
2 moving towards the UNPROFOR compound. It was a movement of the
3 population. It wasn't organised or anything.
4 Q. Thank you. Now, the same thing happened again on the 11th,
5 correct, again before the Serbs arrived in Srebrenica?
6 A. Well, on the 11th, in the morning, I can't recall exactly what
7 time it was, we were still in the building, when my brother left we saw
8 these columns of people moving again because they had already come back,
9 and then they literally said, "Well, they returned sooner than we thought
10 they would. Do you want us all to be captured?" So they said that the
11 Serbs had already come to the Srebrenica MUP. So they had already been
12 in Srebrenica when I left the building and moved towards the UNPROFOR
14 Q. Thank you. Now you also say that at this point some trucks
15 appeared. You say this on page 1944. UNPROFOR trucks appeared. They
16 were full of people, and people used this mode of transportation to move
17 towards Srebrenica.
18 A. No. I don't know if people used this. They did not take anyone
19 from the compound. Everybody had to get down. I assume, and I don't
20 know if this information is correct, because I saw that my son was there.
21 I assumed that they had returned them and they wanted to -- they asked
22 for the people from the hospital to be evacuated. So they were there on
23 the truck, and I saw this because the tarp was torn and it was -- it
24 wasn't covering the truck, so that's when I saw him there and also this
25 friend of his, and they were trying to evacuate the wounded persons. I
1 don't know what happened with the others. They probably walked.
2 Q. [No interpretation]. "[In English] Not far from Potocari, about
3 a kilometre, I --"
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you start your question again.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Here's what you say on page 1944:
7 "[In English] Not far from Potocari, about a kilometre, I'm not
8 quite sure, a lot of people overtook us and two UNPROFOR trucks also
9 arrived, caught up with us, and they were crammed with people."
10 [Interpretation] And then on page 1946 you say, on line 9, that
11 people boarded these trucks, UNPROFOR trucks, and a number of people left
12 on foot, whereas the others went on trucks and were taken to the UNPROFOR
13 compound; correct?
14 A. No, that's not what I said. People were trying to get on these
15 trucks while we were originally in the compound in Srebrenica. They
16 thought they could go that way. However, when we set off on foot, when
17 we were told that we should go to Potocari, all those people had to get
18 off those trucks. They weren't taken on the trucks from there. So then
19 we all walked in a column towards Potocari on foot. Then on -- halfway
20 there, I'm not sure exactly where we were, two of those trucks overtook
21 us, and I only saw -- on one of these trucks where the tarp was torn, I
22 saw my son and this other boy, his friend, his friend from Srebrenica. I
23 saw the two of them. At least that was my assumption, because I know
24 that as we were leaving, I know that they were pleading with these guys
25 to let them evacuate the wounded people, and I assume that maybe that's
1 what they did. And that's my assumption again, that that's how he
2 arrived to the Potocari compound, the UN Potocari compound, where he got
3 off and then that's the last time I saw him.
4 Q. Thank you. You said that there was shooting, that there were a
5 lot of shells. You said that there was shooting opened on a line of
6 people waiting for the water. When was and who was it who was killed in
7 the waterline in Srebrenica?
8 A. Mr. Karadzic, there were so many thousands of people in
9 Srebrenica in these waterlines. How do you imagine that I could tell you
10 who of these people were killed? Do you understand that entire -- I
11 don't know who was killed. There were entire cemeteries, new cemeteries
12 sprang up because so many were killed. There were people getting killed
13 everywhere throughout the town, not just in one particular area, not in
14 waterlines. There were people dying everywhere. Now, who these people
15 were, how could I tell? I really can't tell you. I can't even tell you
16 how many of them were killed, but believe me, there were so many people
17 dead in Srebrenica. Nobody could keep count --
18 Q. But do you remember that other than the shell that landed on the
19 football pitch during a football match, do you recall any other mass
20 killing of that sort in Srebrenica, in a line of some sort, between the
21 time when Srebrenica was provide a protected area and July 1995?
22 A. Sir, in those days when I was there, a shell did land. I can't
23 recall what date it was, but there were people who had come from Cerska
24 and Konjevic Polje and on that occasion a shell landed there and a woman
25 and two children got killed. There were a lot of people there coming
1 from other towns, and there were three people killed at one spot at one
2 time there.
3 The house in which we lived at the time, when this shell
4 exploded, all the glass on the windows broke. There wasn't only one
5 shell. There were shells falling all the time, so it's hard to tell.
6 Q. Madam, there were some 700 to 800 days, almost a thousand days,
7 between the time when the area was declared a protected area and
8 June 1995. When was it that that shell landed where you said that
9 your -- you -- your legs gave way under you and that you were so scared
10 because there hadn't been many before the?
11 A. Well, sir, this was all in the first war year when all this was
13 Q. Thank you. But you were aware -- you knew that in July 1996 --
14 my apologies. I'm pressed for time. That's why I'm rushing.
15 So you did know that the Serbs were not really shelling and not
16 aiming to kill, that they were shelling -- that the shells were falling
17 on the side of the road, and their intention was different, not to kill;
19 A. Well, in my view, as we were on our way to Potocari then, it was
20 really just their attempt to intimidate people, because there were shells
21 falling on the side, but -- and some people were hit by shrapnel, but it
22 was hard to actually keep your head on your shoulders because there were
23 many children there. They were terrified and everybody was trying to
24 peach Potocari as soon as they could. They were moving very fast, we
25 were moving very fast. There were elderly people in the column as well,
1 women and children, and of course they lagged behind a bit, behind the
3 Q. Thank you. On page 1946 you say that UNPROFOR recommended that
4 you move towards Potocari and that you heard planes overhead. And then
5 on the next page you say that the shells were falling on either side of
6 the road. And then on the next page, 1947, you talk about what you've
7 just mentioned here, that you thought that these shells were intended to
9 Now, do you agree with the opinion of others whom we've heard
10 here that these shells were meant to actually make people stick to the
11 road, that they were not supposed to veer away, veer off from the road,
12 that they should stay on the road?
13 A. Well, on the other side of Potocari there were meadows, other
14 people's land, and you couldn't really take any other way, any other
15 road. There was no need to -- to go any other way other than the road
16 that we were already walking on.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned today, I believe, and then on
18 page 1949 you said that many shells landed on the separation line, the
19 line separating the Serb and the Muslim armies; correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Thank you. On the night of the 11th going on the 12th, you said
22 that it was rather calm; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And then on the 12th of July, you saw Serbian soldiers for the
25 first time. That was the first time that they actually came up to you,
1 that they established contact with you.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You describe on page 1950 that no one was sure where to go.
4 Everyone was wondering which way to go. Before this, you decided as a
5 family that civilians, you, your father-in-law, and the youngest child,
6 should join the civilians and head for Potocari; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Was this something that was suggested by someone else or was this
9 purely your own decision?
10 A. It was my decision, our decision.
11 Q. Did this decision coincide with the decisions that most other
12 people decide to take?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Thank you. Who was it who decided that able-bodied men should
15 head towards Susnjari -- toward Susnjari?
16 A. I don't know that there was any official decision. As for my
17 men, and I'm speaking on their behalf, they simply decided to head that
18 way. Just like in 1992, we did not trust the Serbs to surrender to them.
19 So the same feeling prevailed, and they decided to try and head for
20 Susnjari and then reach the so-called free territory that way, to try to
21 break through.
22 Q. Thank you. Now, what I would like to ask you about, you say that
23 they -- well, they could go in four different directions. How was it
24 that 15 -- 13.000 to 15.000 people decided to go in this one particular
25 direction to Susnjari? How could that be?
1 A. Well, I really don't know. I know that most people who were
2 there who were from Cerska and Konjevic Polje, there were even some
3 people from Zvornik municipality, I believe that they were familiar with
4 this road. Simply that was the reason. Some people decided to go back
5 to Zepa. So I really don't know how it was that they decided to go that
7 Q. Thank you. Did you know that about 1.000 Oric's men crossed the
8 Drina by way of Zepa and crossed into Serbia?
9 A. I did hear that some people managed to cross over into Serbia,
10 but who they were and whether they were fighters or not, I don't know. I
11 don't know if they were civilians or soldiers. I don't know anything
12 about that.
13 Q. You mentioned that some houses that were uninhabitable and some
14 other buildings, that there were haystacks, and as the Serb army was
15 coming downhill, down the slope, that they were torching everything
16 before them; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Well, where did these haystacks come from? How -- how did that
19 happen to be there? Was someone actually cutting grass?
20 A. Well, people lived there, and these people were people who lived
21 there and were just tilling their soil, working their land.
22 Q. And the hay was meant for cattle; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. Now, the houses that you mentioned, did anyone
25 explain to you that when an army goes through a certain area, they cannot
1 leave any buildings behind them because there might be someone hidden in
2 those buildings who could then shoot at their backs?
3 A. Well, how could anyone explain anything like that to us? We
4 didn't know what we were doing. Why would anyone be explaining anything?
5 All we could see was that they were setting everything on fire, and then
6 when arrived -- when they arrived there, then we realised who they were.
7 Of course, "we" meaning all of our people who were all over the place
8 there on the plateau, around some factory and so on.
9 Q. Thank you. Now, you mentioned today that there was a lot of
10 shooting into the air. They were celebrating something, celebratory
11 shooting; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. On line 13, page 1951, you speak about this, and then you say
14 that the Serb soldiers then mixed in or came and joined you, the
15 population, the Muslim population.
16 A. Yes. They came. They went from group to group from us and they
17 asked us, you know, about things.
18 Q. So they were asking you about how you were doing, who -- your
19 names and so on?
20 A. Well, as I mentioned, they asked about things such as where our
21 sons were, where our husbands were, and stuff like that. Personally, no
22 one addressed me. No one asked me anything or asked for any names or
23 anything of that sort.
24 Q. On page 1952, you say that they were looking for children. Some
25 gave chocolate bars and chewing gum to children. The children were very
1 hungry for these things, and they accepted gladly; correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And on the next page, 1953, you say, and you've also repeated
4 that on pages 38 and 39, that on several occasions they called out people
5 to interrogate them. They called out one person once, twice, and a third
6 time. That person did not come back.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. What could they have learned about that person in the meantime?
9 Why didn't they take them out straight away?
10 A. Some people did not return after the first time they were taken
11 out, and a couple of other people who were interrogated once or twice did
12 not return on the third time. I don't know why.
13 Q. On page 1953, you say you saw an UNPROFOR soldier tied to a
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you maybe imagine that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Well, I'm asking, because nobody ever reported that we had tied
19 an UNPROFOR soldier to his vehicle.
20 A. When we went out to get some water, there was an UNPROFOR vehicle
21 in the street, and there was a soldier lying on his back with his arms
22 outstretched and tied behind his back.
23 Q. In some of your statements you said - and I hope this was a slip
24 of the tongue - that Serbs had taken out several hundred young women.
25 They separated them from the others. Nobody ever reported about that to
1 us. Did somebody tell you that or did you see them separating young
3 A. I saw these young women being separated from the others and taken
4 away towards houses to the right of Srebrenica, towards, for instance,
5 the house of Hasan Malic and his neighbours, the houses lying below my
6 brother's house, which was devastated at the time. They took them to
7 those houses.
8 MS. WEST: Mr. President, I don't object to the question, but
9 Mr. Karadzic mentioned statements. As I understand, there's only one
10 statement, so if he's speaking about there being more than one, I would
11 just appreciate a cite.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are two transcripts of this
13 witness's testimony, in Tolimir and in Krstic, and also a statement, a
14 written statement, from 1995. I can find a reference later. I think
15 this passage comes from the 1995 statement.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. You say that some people taunted you, mentioning Alija and asking
18 you why you did not listen to Babo, your daddy.
19 A. That's the man who cursed our Balija mother, and saying that if
20 we had listened to Babo, that is to say, Alija, the things that were
21 happening would not be happening to us.
22 Q. Do you agree -- and I'm saying this because the Chamber does not
23 know who Babo is, do you know that Babo is a Muslim leader who
24 overwhelmingly won the elections in 1992 but is of a different political
25 affiliation than Alija Izetbegovic?
1 A. I cannot answer that sort of question, Mr. Karadzic, which
2 politician belonged to what party and who got more votes. I was not
3 involved in that, and I don't know what would have happened if we had
4 listened to this one or that one. I'm an ordinary woman who survived
5 what she has survived.
6 Q. But you do know that it is a Muslim leader whom the Serbs
7 preferred over Alija, and these Serbs were telling you if you had
8 listened to Babo, then these things would not be happening. You know
9 he's a Muslim leader; right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. On page 1959 and 1958, you say that moaning could be heard from
12 people who were being tortured in the white house or wherever it was they
13 were interrogated. How is it possible that nobody from the UNPROFOR
14 reported about that, although all 150 of them were there?
15 A. That's rubbish, Mr. Karadzic.
16 MS. WEST: Objection.
17 JUDGE KWON: She answered the question.
18 JUDGE MORRISON: It was a classic example of asking somebody
19 what's in a third party's mind, Dr. Karadzic. If the Prosecution did
20 that, you'd be the first to object.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm making an introduction to what
22 the UNPROFOR told them. On page 1959, UNPROFOR said -- sorry. Page 58,
23 line 23:
24 "[In English] We wanted to know what would happen to the people,
25 to the men whose families were screaming, but they would," next page,
1 "they would simply answer that a member of their families must have gone
2 mad or something like that and they told us not to be afraid and that it
3 was nothing really."
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. So UNPROFOR did not see that anybody was being tortured, and they
6 thought the families were going crazy and perhaps exaggerating.
7 A. You know better.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I'll let it go because she already started her
10 Yes, Ms. West.
11 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I still object on the same
12 grounds. And secondly, Mr. Karadzic has not read this entire passage,
13 because these are soldiers of which she was -- were actually Serb
14 soldiers that she said were wearing UNPROFOR uniforms. So they're not
15 Dutch soldiers.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, would you like to hear again "rubbish"
17 from the witness? Please move on.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. You say that it was only your assumption, and you supposed that
22 somebody had committed suicide. How many people committed suicide?
23 A. Some people committed suicide. There was one man I saw with my
24 own eyes that night who hanged himself when he saw what was going on.
25 After midnight nobody was sleeping. He hanged himself in the compound of
1 the Zinc factory. I know that man. He was a relative of mine,
2 Hamdije Smajlovic. From the accounts of his family, his wife, who was
3 going back with us, their house was close to mine, I know that her
4 husband also hanged himself, and there were many other people who did not
5 know what to do or where to go and decided to take their own lives.
6 All the people your Serb soldiers took away the evening of the
7 12th, not a single shot could be heard. Only screams and moans could be
8 heard. And it was not the white house. There were two houses next to
9 the Zinc factory. Some people were taken there that night. There were
10 screams, awful screams and cries. You couldn't really determine where
11 they were coming from. Also from the compound of the transport company.
12 All this screaming was coming from everywhere, like in a horror
13 film. The night was filled with it. People could not understand what
14 was going on, but the families around us all lost family members, men who
15 were taken out that night and never came back.
16 Q. We'll come back to that, with all due respect. On page 1958 and
17 59, the witness assumed those were Serbian soldiers because they knew the
18 Serbian language, but there is no other proof that they were Serbian
19 soldiers. I'm telling you, madam, that it's impossible that Serbian
20 soldiers would be wearing UNPROFOR uniforms in front of UNPROFOR troops.
21 So you decided that they were Serbian only because they were
22 speaking Serbian.
23 A. No. I saw one soldier when he was taking his T-shirt off and
24 giving it to another soldier. And we had spent a lot of time with Dutch
25 troops in Srebrenica before that. Not a single one of them knew our
1 language that well.
2 On the 13th, in the morning, when we were asking them what to do
3 and where to go, they were smiling so happily. You know who can smile
4 like that? Somebody who achieved their goal. They spoke Serbian so
5 perfectly there's no chance they were Dutch. Not a single Dutch soldier
6 could do that.
7 Q. You never mentioned that soldier who was taking his T-shirt off
9 A. I could write a novel if I were to mention everything that
10 happened during those years and that -- these days in Potocari. There
11 are things coming back all the time. And people who were grown up, who
12 had moved among these soldiers during those years knew perfectly well not
13 a single Dutch soldier spoke Serbian so well.
14 Q. You also mentioned for the first time in this testimony, on
15 page 1969, that young women were separated from the others and taken
16 away. They took daughters and young girls. I'm giving this reference
17 for the benefit of the other participants in the trial.
18 And you now say that some people hanged themselves. You know one
19 of them. You knew one of them, Hamdije Smajlovic. How did you know him?
20 A. He was a cousin, and before the war he worked in the Zinc
21 factory, in the servicing shop.
22 Q. What's his father's name?
23 A. Demir Smajlovic.
24 Q. Thank you. Did you know Kiram Smajlovic? Did he hang himself
1 A. I knew the man, but I didn't see him hang himself.
2 Q. And were you told -- I'll tell you now on which page, 1960. My
3 next-door neighbour -- I'll read in English:
4 [Overlapping speakers] ... "[In English] A next-door neighbour of
5 mine, she had a house in the vicinity of the factory. They were going
6 home to get some food and she told me that on the way she had seen two
7 other persons, two of our neighbours, who had hanged themselves.
8 Kiram Smajic and Fehim Hasanovic."
9 [Interpretation] Right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you know this man Kiram?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Do you know his father's name?
14 A. Nazif Smajic.
15 Q. Nazif or Kemal?
16 A. Nazif.
17 Q. Thank you. We'll come back to those whom you later learned to be
18 dead or to have committed suicide.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you have five minutes.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I don't think the
21 next witness can begin. It takes 20 minutes only to set up the
22 courtroom, so just because of the circumstances you could give me a few
23 more minutes.
24 JUDGE KWON: You have exactly 15 minutes conclude your
25 evidence -- cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic. Sorry, five minutes.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. On page 1983, you stated, line 16:
4 "[In English] I can corroborate it by fresh examples from my
5 family. My father-in-law Omer Malagic, born in 1926, his three sons, one
6 of whom was my husband Salko Malagic, born 1948. His two brothers
7 Osman Malagic, Dzafer Malagic, his three grandsons, these are my two
8 sons, Elvir Malagic born in 1973, Admir Malagic born in 1979, and my
9 brother-in-law Samir Malagic."
10 [Interpretation] They're all dead; right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. When were they killed, respectively?
13 A. My father-in-law, as I said before, Omer Malagic; my husband
14 Salko Malagic; Samir Malagic, and the others all were killed at the time
15 Srebrenica fell, whereas my brother-in-law Osman Malagic was killed in
16 Srebrenica sometime in June. I don't know the date. Whereas
17 Dzafer Malagic was killed in December 1992. Also while searching for
18 food, he was killed by an air-bomb.
19 Q. And those who were killed in July, where were they killed and
20 how? They attempted a breakthrough, all of them except your
21 father-in-law; correct?
22 A. As I said before, when I went to identify the bodies in Tuzla, we
23 had all received papers beforehand and I presented them to the OTP, and
24 there are protocols listing the place where they were killed and the
25 grave where they were found. The locations were Zvornicka, Kamenica,
1 where the executions took place.
2 Regarding my son, the cause of death is indicated as possible
3 entry and exit wound in the chest. And for my husband the cause of death
4 is not determined because the bones were collected from several sites.
5 It was not a complete skeleton, and the doctor could not establish the
6 cause of death, so I don't know.
7 Q. What kind of certificate did you obtain regarding these victims?
8 How were they qualified in the certificates?
9 A. What do you mean?
10 Q. Did you receive certificates for them as what, casualties,
11 civilian victims, or combatants? It's indicated on the certificate.
12 A. My husband is listed as combatant, and children, victims of war,
13 casualties of war.
14 Q. Page 1991, you repeated that a thousand women did not return from
15 Potocari, and 106 -- and 650 children didn't. Do you stand by that claim
16 that the Serbs kept a thousand women and 650 children?
17 A. That doesn't mean that the Serbs kept them. I heard various
18 stories, and one man told me that his entire family that boarded a truck
19 in Potocari did not arrive at Tuzla. Where those people ended up is a
20 matter for speculation. Some women were killed too. Where they were
21 killed and how they met their death, I don't know. I can't tell you.
22 Q. And what is written in this 92 ter notification, that out of all
23 the men some were separated by Serb soldiers, that's not true.
24 A. I don't understand.
25 JUDGE KWON: No. Please put a pause before you start answering
1 the question, Ms. Malagic.
2 Could you repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic. That may be --
3 this should be the last question from you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I just ask one final
5 question? Can this be the penultimate?
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Here in the notification, 92 ter notification, the Prosecutor
8 claims that you were separated from your sons and your husband by Serb
9 soldiers. That's not quite correct, is it?
10 A. Well, literally speaking, perhaps you could claim that it's not
11 correct, but in fact it is correct. We were separated by Serb soldiers.
12 I mean, they weren't literally there at that spot and then separating us.
13 We were -- rather, we were forced to separate, but we separated because
14 of the Serb soldiers, because of the shelling, because of trying not to
15 fall in their hands. So we were separated at -- on the outskirts of
17 Q. Thank you. And my last question: We mentioned today a large
18 number of people who were killed in 1992, and also some people who
19 committed suicide, as well as those who went missing while they were
20 trying a breakthrough towards Tuzla. Are all those names etched in on
21 the memorial in Srebrenica, the monument, the memorial site there?
22 A. All the names, all of those people who were killed when
23 Srebrenica fell, or killed, those who were trying to break through and so
24 on, but all of those who were killed before that time, earlier on, their
25 names are not on this memorial monument. They are -- they were buried in
1 other locations, in other areas. So only those who were killed in
2 Potocari or Srebrenica they were there.
3 Q. But if I tell you that they're on lists, on DNA-identification
4 lists, including the suicides, if I told you that they were on the
5 1992 list of -- would -- and that's not correct, what would you say to
6 that? Where did these other people get killed -- get buried?
7 A. Well, the Kazani cemetery, the Potocari cemetery, some mass
8 cemeteries where a number of people were buried at the same time,
9 especially during intense shelling. In other words, in all the areas
10 around Srebrenica when there was a cemetery already or there was free
11 space, anyway, they established cemeteries and buried people there.
12 Q. Well, where are those cemeteries now?
13 A. Well, they're still in Srebrenica, in the town.
14 Q. And my last question: The Prosecutor tried to link this with
15 something that you saw in Sandici. When was this? When did this happen?
16 What date and at what time?
17 A. Well, this was on the 13th of July. I was on the bus at the
18 time. Around -- in the early afternoon, around 1.00 or 2.00 p.m. like
19 now. I'm not quite sure, because I didn't have a watch. So I'm not sure
20 about the time, but the sun was already high on the sky.
21 Q. But do you know that on the night of the 12 -- between the 12th
22 and the 13th there were no Serb soldiers in Potocari, and you said that
23 that night was horrible.
24 A. The 12th, on the 13th of July? Sir, that's not correct.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I did not have enough
2 time to complete fully my questioning. And that the Defence should be
3 allotted the same amount of time as the Prosecution in the 92 ter
4 situation, that's really a novelty too.
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I would like you to read back the
6 transcript of today and find out what kind of questions you were asking
7 to the witness for the first hour.
8 Ms. West, would you like to have any re-examination?
9 MS. WEST: No, thank you, Mr. President.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, may I just add one
11 final word. May I say something, and this has to do with my questions at
12 the beginning of the questioning.
13 JUDGE KWON: No, Mr. Karadzic.
14 Ms. Malagic, that concludes your evidence in this case. On
15 behalf of my colleagues and the Tribunal as a whole, I would like to
16 thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Please have a safe journey.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Ms. Malagic, on behalf
22 of the Defence, and I hope you hold no grudge against us.
23 [The witness withdrew]
24 JUDGE KWON: Who will lead the next witness?
25 MS. WEST: Mr. Nicholls.
1 JUDGE KWON: I was told that we need 15 minutes to prepare for
2 the next witness, but still there's a point, but it's worth it to
3 continue even if it's for 20 minutes.
4 MS. WEST: I think so, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll break for 15 minutes and resume at
6 quarter to 3.00.
7 --- Break taken at 2.28 p.m.
8 --- On resuming at 2.45 p.m.
9 [The witness entered court]
10 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk. My apologies for
12 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, Your Honour.
13 JUDGE KWON: You are appearing again for a second time, but for
14 clarity, I would prefer you to take the solemn declaration again.
15 THE WITNESS: Of course. I solemnly declare that I will speak
16 the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please take a seat.
18 WITNESS: TOMASZ BLASZCZYK [Recalled]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
20 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, and good afternoon, Your Honours.
21 Before I begin, Your Honours, may I raise one matter briefly which I've
22 discussed with my friend Mr. Robinson, and that is I would ask that the
23 OTP be allowed to have contact and speak with Mr. Blaszczyk while he is
24 testifying solely on the issue of scheduling of other witnesses because
25 he sometimes assists us and the people doing the scheduling with witness
1 phone numbers and addresses and things like that, and my friend does not
2 have an objection.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It is granted, Mr. Nicholls.
4 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
5 Further Examination by Mr. Nicholls:
6 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Blaszczyk.
7 A. Good afternoon.
8 Q. As you know, today for a short time and tomorrow we're going to
9 discuss an exhibit you've created, 65 ter 03931, and we may bring that up
10 in e-court now, which we call the Petrovic Video Road Book.
11 MR. NICHOLLS: And, Your Honours, I believe you should all have a
12 copy, a hard copy, and I've passed it out to Mr. Karadzic and to
13 Mr. Harvey as well.
14 Q. And I'm not going to talk about your background at all,
15 Mr. Blaszczyk, because we talked about that when you testified on
16 20th of August, 2010, when you were here before.
17 So now talking about what I'll call the road book, can you tell
18 us very briefly, and for the record you have a copy in front of you, what
19 is this document? What does it show us?
20 A. This road book or Petrovic video book we created based on
21 Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac's video raw material and also of the material
22 broadcasted by Serbian television and Studio B television in July 1995.
23 This road book contains a map of particular area of Bratunac, in fact,
24 Potocari, Sandici, Kravica, Pervani, Lolici, and the pictures, the stills
25 from the material broadcasted by Serbian television in July 1995. The
1 material was recorded by Serbian journalist Zoran Petrovic. And also in
2 this notebook -- this road book, I -- we attached the pictures of the
3 spotted location of this aerial -- of this area I mentioned just while
5 Q. Thank you. And you said that --
6 JUDGE KWON: Microphone, Mr. Nicholls.
7 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
8 Q. And you said, Mr. Blaszczyk, that Zoran Petrovic Pirocanac, shot
9 this raw video footage that's the subject of the book as well as created
10 the Studio B documentary. Can you tell us what dates
11 Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac shot this footage in the areas you described?
12 A. The footage was recorded on the 13 and 14 July 1995 on the
13 area -- area I described just while ago. It's Potocari, Sandici, Kravica
14 and Pervani area.
15 Q. And just to be clear, this man's name is Zoran Petrovic. Is
16 Pirocanac a nickname which is sometimes used and attached to his full
18 A. It is correct. His real name is Zoran Petrovic but he use
19 nickname of Pirocanac.
20 Q. And we'll look at the video later, but could you also tell us and
21 tell Their Honours in the back of 65 ter 03931, the Petrovic video road
22 book, there's a CV -- or DVD. Can you just tell us what that is in the
24 A. To each notebook we attached digital presentation of the same
25 area. In fact, digital presentation containing only information about
1 Potocari, and Sandici and Kravica area. It's more or less is the same --
2 the same presentation like is in the book but more widely described, more
3 accessible. If we're going to play this presentation, I will explain
4 everything in due course.
5 Q. Thank you. And now just before we get on to the book, we'll see
6 in the video that Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac travelled by car in the areas
7 you've mapped out and took some video actually from the moving car on the
8 13 and 14 July. Who was with him during his trip to these areas? Who
9 else was present in the vehicle?
10 A. Mr. Zoran Petrovic Pirocanac is travelling together with
11 Ljubisa Borovcanin and with his driver. I mean Ljubomir Borovcanin's
12 driver. I think his name is Nedjo Jovicic.
13 Q. And just for our record, who is Mr. Borovcanin?
14 A. At that -- at that time Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin was the deputy
15 commander of the Special Police Brigade of Republika Srpska.
16 Q. Thank you. The video footage which was used in comprising this
17 book, where did it come from? Where did -- how did you receive it? And
18 I'm talking there about the video with the ERN V000-6747, which is
19 P00667, previously admitted.
20 A. Regarding to this particular video, this is copy of the raw
21 material that Mr. Pirocanac or Petrovic recorded in -- at that time in
22 July 1995 in Srebrenica area. Mr. Petrovic gave us access to this raw
23 material in 2006 - I think it was February 2006 - during the interview we
24 had conducted with him in our field office in Belgrade. We made a copy
25 there, a good quality copy, the best quality copy we could, you know,
1 just of this material from him. And on the copy he confirmed that the
2 tape contained exactly the same -- the same footage he recorded on the
3 raw material.
4 Q. Okay. And just if I can be clear, is it right then that
5 Mr. Petrovic Pirocanac personally handed you his raw material, that you
6 were present when the OTP copied that raw material, and that then
7 Mr. Pirocanac certified that the copy was a good correct copy?
8 A. Yes, this is correct. You know, just when we met Mr. Pirocanac
9 in February 2006 we asked him to provide the raw material, his raw
10 material. He agreed with it. I remember at that time he didn't have
11 this material with him. I had to drive him to his accommodation in
12 Belgrade and we picked up the raw material. We returned to our field
13 office and our video assistant who also assisted us in -- during this
14 mission he made the copy of -- of this raw material, in fact, with our
15 presence, with presence my lawyer, it was Mr. Nicholls at that time, and
16 Mr. Petrovic.
17 Q. Thank you. Now, very briefly, has the OTP come into possession
18 of any other versions, any other tapes, of this raw material from other
20 A. Yes. The OTP is in possession also of other of, let's say, the
21 copy of the same material but from other sources -- our sources. This
22 would be -- this is, in fact, material we received from -- from BBC, it
23 was 2002. Then the material we received -- we are talking about copy of
24 the raw material from Mr. Pirocanac, the material we received from --
25 from Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina. I think it was 2007.
1 And -- and we have also added the material which was broadcasted by
2 Studio B in July 1995 containing the footage from Petrovic raw material.
3 Well, edited version. We receive it from Mr. Ljubisa Borovcanin during
4 the interview we had with him. As far as I remember, it was March 2002.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I please have 65 ter 03933. And to save
7 time while it's coming up I'll say this is a document from the
8 VRS Main Staff Centre for Information and Propaganda Activities, dated
9 the 22nd of June, 1996, signed by Colonel Milovan Milutinovic. And it's
10 entitled: "Report on television footage from Srebrenica, VRS Main Staff
11 Security Body." And if we could just scroll down to see the signature,
13 Q. Now, Mr. Blaszczyk, who is -- or in July 1995, what was the
14 position for Colonel Milutinovic in the VRS?
15 A. In July 1995, Colonel Milan Milutinovic was the head of the press
16 centre of VRS.
17 Q. And very briefly, you've seen this document before; correct?
18 A. Yes, it is correct.
19 Q. And just to sum up, this refers to the Petrovic Pirocanac raw
20 material being in Belgrade and states that it should be obtained by the
22 A. Yes. That is correct, yes. Exactly.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that document, Your Honour.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4266, Your Honours.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: We still have time. Could I please have
2 65 ter 03934 in e-court, a document dated 24 June 1996, receipt for
3 temporarily seized object, signed by Naval Captain Ljubisa Beara.
4 Q. And in the document we just saw signed by Colonel Milutinovic, he
5 stated that a receipt would be necessary. Can you just tell us, first of
6 all, what was Ljubisa Beara's position in July 1995 in the VRS?
7 A. Ljubisa Beara in July 1995 and during entire the war in
8 Bosnia-Herzegovina was head of security administration in Main Staff of
9 Army of Republika Srpska.
10 Q. And just -- can you tell us, did these documents play any role in
11 the OTP's obtaining the version of the Petrovic Pirocanac raw video which
12 you alluded to that we received from the Ministry of Defence of the RS?
13 A. Yes. We first -- if I may explain how we received these
14 documents first. First we received -- in fact, our team from The Hague
15 went to Banja Luka to the barracks in Banja Luka. I think it was 2006,
16 November or October in 2006, and they got access to the archive of the
17 Main Staff of army of -- to -- to the archive of the Army of
18 Republika Srpska in Banja Luka, and they copied some -- they scanned some
19 documents, lot of material from -- from the archive. When -- later on
20 when the team return to The Hague, we had -- and all the scanned versions
21 of the documents were put in -- in our system and were accessible for all
22 investigators, we started to review all the documents, and during the
23 reviewing all this stuffs, at that time scanned in barracks of
24 Army of Republika Srpska, we discovered these two documents. This is
25 information of Colonel Milutinovic and also receipt for temporarily
1 seized object, the tape, signed by Colonel Ljubisa Beara, but we received
2 a copy of these documents -- I mean the scanned version of these
3 documents. Immediately when we discovered these receipts, we requested
4 again Ministry of Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina for the originals of
5 these documents and also we requested for the tape which is mentioned in
6 both documents.
7 Q. Okay. And just quickly, you said, when you were talking about
8 this archive: "At first we received access to the archive of the
9 Main Staff of the army," and then you said, "to the Army of
10 Republika Srpska in Banja Luka." Which archive was this in Banja Luka?
11 A. It was -- it was archive of the Army of Republika --
12 Republika Srpska, but personally I don't believe that it was entire
13 archive of the Main Staff. It's rather not, you know, just -- but there
14 were documents from various corps and, yes, they were documents from
15 Army of Republika Srpska.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, I note the time.
17 MR. NICHOLLS: Yeah. May I tender the document, Your Honour.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 MR. NICHOLLS: And that's a good place to break.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4267, Your Honours.
21 JUDGE KWON: Having realised where we are now, I now find out
22 that we didn't have to take a break for the preparation.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honours. In fact, we --
24 JUDGE KWON: The previous video we admitted as Petrovic video was
25 admitted as part of associate exhibit of Mr. Petrovic.
1 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, Your Honour.
2 JUDGE KWON: Can I have the exhibit number of
3 Mr. Zoran Petrovic's statement or testimony?
4 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll have to look that up, Your Honour.
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry, I don't have that at my fingertips.
7 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll adjourn for today and resume
8 tomorrow at 9.00.
9 THE ACCUSED: May I just clarify one thing?
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: Mr. Petrovic didn't testify in this.
12 JUDGE KWON: We admitted his evidence pursuant to Rule 92 bis.
13 That was my -- that was my question.
14 I was told that it is Exhibit P375, under seal.
15 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct. That's correct. Thank you.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Tomorrow, 9.00.
17 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.04 p.m.,
18 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day
19 of January, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.