Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24169

 1                           Tuesday, 7 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Before we hear the evidence

 6     of the next witness, there are a couple of matters I'd like to deal with.

 7             First, the Chamber will issue an oral ruling in relation to the

 8     testimony of Momir Nikolic, who is expected to testify next week.

 9             The Chamber notes that in the February list of witnesses filed by

10     the Prosecution on 20th January, Momir Nikolic is listed as a partial

11     Rule 92 ter witness for whom four hours of examination-in-chief were

12     envisaged.  In the Rule 92 ter notification filed on 31st of January, the

13     Prosecution reduced this estimated time to two hours but seeks to tender

14     480 pages of transcript of the witness's testimony in the Tolimir case,

15     which lasted six days.

16             Because of his position as chief of intelligence and security in

17     the Bratunac Brigade during the conflict, Nikolic's evidence is central

18     to the Srebrenica-related allegations charged in the indictment.

19     Therefore, given the nature of Nikolic's testimony, as well as the amount

20     of Rule 92 ter material sought to be tendered through him, the Chamber

21     considers that it is in the interests of justice that he be called viva

22     voce.  The Chamber will decide on the time to allocate to the accused for

23     cross-examination once the Prosecution has determined how much time it

24     requires for its examination-in-chief.

25             Turning now to the March and April order of witnesses.  The

Page 24170

 1     Chamber first notes that Richard Butler is still indicated as a partial

 2     Rule 92 ter witness despite the Chamber's order of 8th of December, 2011,

 3     that he be called viva voce.  The Chamber therefore orders the

 4     Prosecution to file a corrected version of the March and April list.

 5             Still in relation to the March and April list of witnesses, the

 6     Chamber wishes to ask the Prosecution a few clarifying questions in

 7     relation to Mr. Dusan Janc and Mr. Dean Manning.

 8             First, could the Prosecution clarify whether it wishes to call

 9     Janc and Manning pursuant to Rule 92 ter?  If so, what prior evidence of

10     statement will be tendered for each of these two witnesses?

11             In that respect, the Chamber also notes that the May 2009 list of

12     witnesses listed them as viva voce witnesses, and for Manning stated that

13     his "reports" will be tendered pursuant to Rule 94 bis.  However, the

14     Rule 94 bis dead-line have long passed and no Rule 94 bis filing has been

15     presented.

16             Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  I don't think it's -- excuse me, Mr. President.  I

18     don't think there's any need for any clarification of the inquiry the

19     Court is making.  We'll get back to you forthwith with the response to

20     those matters to see if they represent any misunderstanding reflected in

21     the documents on the part of the Prosecution or simply a clerical error,

22     but we'll clarify for the Court forthwith the Prosecution's intentions

23     with respect to both witnesses.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

25             Unless there are any other matters, we'll bring in the next

Page 24171

 1     witness.

 2             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 3             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Harvey.

 5             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President.  I don't know if this

 6     is working.  No.  Yes.  I would just like, if I may, to introduce

 7     Ms. Sandra Gudaityte who has joined the stand-by team.  Thank you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Good morning to you.

 9             Ms. West, your next witness is Mr. Todorovic.

10             MS. WEST:  Good morning, Mr. President.  Yes, it is.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, sir.  Do you hear me well?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Would you take the solemn declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  DRAGAN TODOROVIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Please be seated and make

21     yourself comfortable.

22             Yes, Ms. West.

23                           Examination by Ms. West:

24        Q.   Good morning, sir.

25        A.   Good morning.

Page 24172

 1        Q.   What is your name?

 2        A.   My name is Dragan Todorovic.

 3        Q.   Where were you born?

 4        A.   In Tuzla.

 5        Q.   Sir, can you confirm that you had an opportunity to listen to

 6     your testimony in the Popovic case and it accurately reflects your

 7     evidence to that Court?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   If you were asked about the same issues today in this court,

10     would you provide the same information?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, I would tender the Popovic testimony to

13     65 ter 22406, and there are two associated exhibits.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit the transcript first.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4350, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Are they -- are there any objections with respect to

17     two associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  They will be both admitted.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour, 65 ter 03827 will be Exhibit

21     P4351 and 65 ter 03826 will be Exhibit P4352 [Realtime transcript read in

22     error "P4353"].

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, if I may read a brief summary.

25             The witness joined the VRS in 1992 and served in other units

Page 24173

 1     before joining the 10th Sabotage Unit in late 1994.  The 10th Sabotage

 2     was under the command of the Main Staff.  The witness was responsible for

 3     the logistic support of the unit.

 4             The 10th Sabotage Unit had two platoons.  Todorovic was in the

 5     Vlasenica platoon which was based in Dragasevac; and the other bass in

 6     Bijeljina.  Milorad Pelemis was the commander in the 10th Sabotage, and

 7     Pelemis' superiors at the Main Staff were Salapura, Tolimir, and

 8     Milanovic and Mladic.  Todorovic testified that Petar Salapura was the

 9     Main Staff officer who communicated most with the unit.

10             On July 10th, 1995, a written order came from the Main Staff

11     ordering the 10th Sabotage to deploy.  The witness packed up equipment

12     and the unit left the base spending the night in Zeleni Jadar.  The

13     10th Sabotage entered Srebrenica on July 11th with orders to capture the

14     town but encountered no resistance.  Todorovic saw General Mladic in

15     Srebrenica.  The General congratulated the troops, ordered Todorovic and

16     his unit to hold the police station until documents were recovered and

17     ordered the remaining troops on to Potocari.  Mladic also told the

18     10th Sabotage that they had 48 hours to search the town and take what

19     they wanted.

20             The witness returned to the base at Dragasevac the morning of

21     12th July and the rest of the men from his unit returned in the evening.

22             Commander Pelemis was in charge of the 10th Sabotage Unit

23     throughout the operation in Srebrenica but upon Pelemis's return to the

24     base, Pelemis was injured in a vehicle accident that killed another

25     soldier.

Page 24174

 1             Todorovic was tasked with taking the dead soldier killed in the

 2     accident back to his family home and attending the funeral.  He left

 3     Dragasevac on July 13th with several members of his unit.  They were gone

 4     for two days, returning between 10.00 and 11.00 in the morning July 15th.

 5     When Todorovic returned, Pelemis was gone and Todorovic was told that

 6     Pelemis was at the hospital in another town.

 7             Soon after this, Todorovic saw Pecanac arrive at the base along

 8     with a second car.  He knew Pecanac was the aide-de-camp to

 9     General Mladic and was certain of his identity because Pecanac had, in

10     the past, turned up at the base every now and then, and on this occasion,

11     July 15th, Pecanac entered the base again.

12             Todorovic also recognised the second car, a VW Golf which

13     belonged to Popovic, the security officer for the Drina Corps.  Pecanac

14     came on to the base and Todorovic heard Pecanac arguing and shouting with

15     another soldier, Zoran Obrenovic, but the witness did not hear the

16     details.  Obrenovic later told the witness that Pecanac ordered him,

17     Obrenovic, to gather troops for a job and that Obrenovic had refused

18     because there was no order coming from Commander Pelemis.  Pecanac then

19     shouted at another soldier to round up men for a meeting with

20     Colonel Beara in Zvornik, and that soldier complied.

21             Todorovic then packed equipment for the departing unit.  He

22     testified that in addition to normal weapons and combat gear, he issued

23     more additional equipment and ammunition.  Seven to eight men from the

24     10th Sabotage Unit then left with Pecanac in a black VW minivan followed

25     by the Popovic car.

Page 24175

 1             Todorovic then went back to Srebrenica with other members of his

 2     unit to gather cattle, returned to the base that night and the black

 3     minivan was there when he returned, but Todorovic supposed the men were

 4     in town at a cafe.

 5             On July 16th, Todorovic was in Srebrenica until late in the

 6     evening and again did not see the men who had left on the 15th.  He had

 7     no information about what the men of the 10th Sabotage Unit did on the

 8     15th or the 16th of July.

 9        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, I have just a few questions for you.  Can you tell

10     the Trial Chamber when the 10th Sabotage Unit was created?

11        A.   In 1994, the 1st of November or the 1st of October.

12        Q.   And to whom was the unit subordinated?

13        A.   The Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.

14        Q.   Who was your commander?

15        A.   Mr. Milorad Pelemis was commander of the Sabotage Detachment.

16        Q.   And from whom did he receive orders?

17        A.   From a higher level, from the Main Staff, from officers.

18        Q.   I'm now going to show you a video-clip.  In total it's about

19     10 minutes long.

20             MS. WEST:  For the record, this is P4021, the Srebrenica trial

21     video.  In the book there are stills that are associated with this video.

22     The video's subtitled as well.

23             The stills start on page 17.  There is a transcript as well, but

24     as I said, it's subtitled.

25             For the record, we're starting at minute 23 and 45 seconds, and

Page 24176

 1     we will end at minute 33 and 20 seconds.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MS. WEST:  [Microphone not activated] Mr. President, there is

 4     sound to this video --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, there is sound, and I believe it's

 7     being fixed now.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like it to be played again or we can carry

 9     on?

10             MS. WEST:  We can carry on.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             MS. WEST:  We've just stopped at minute 24 and 41 seconds.

14        Q.   Mr. Todorovic, on the still in front of you, do you recognise

15     that black uniform we see on the man on the right?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And what can you tell us about the patch on the arm?

18        A.   It's our patch.  It's the patch of my unit, the

19     10th Sabotage Detachment.

20             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  We'll continue.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MS. WEST:  We've stopped at 25 minutes and 10 seconds.

23        Q.   This person we see in the middle who has the black overalls on,

24     do you recognise this person?

25        A.   That's a member of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

Page 24177

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness please

 2     be asked to speak a bit louder.  Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Todorovic, you are being asked by the

 4     interpreters to speak to the microphone or speak up a bit -- turn up your

 5     volume a bit.  Thank you.

 6             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  We'll continue.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             MS. WEST:  We've stopped at 25:37.

10        Q.   We see a gentleman on the right-hand side.  Do you recognise that

11     gentleman?

12        A.   General Zivanovic.

13             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  And we'll continue.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             MS. WEST:  We've stopped at 25:53.

16        Q.   Now, we see some soldiers in the middle who have a patch on their

17     arm.  Do you recognise that patch?

18        A.   There's a wolf on that patch, and they are members of the

19     Drina Corps, the Drina Wolves.

20             MS. WEST:  We'll continue.

21                           [Video-clip played]

22             MS. WEST:  We've stopped at 26 minutes and 30 seconds.

23        Q.   This man who is standing next to the person you identified as

24     Zivanovic, who is he?

25        A.   His brother.

Page 24178

 1             MS. WEST:  We'll continue.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MS. WEST:  We've stopped at 29 minutes and 40 seconds.

 4        Q.   And we saw with the subtitles they were talking about ammunition,

 5     and now it says -- they said, "Who is the ammunition for?"  "It's for

 6     Legenda."  Can you tell us who that is?

 7        A.   Well, I think he was an officer of the Drina Corps.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9        A.   He had something to do with those Wolves.

10             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  We'll continue.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MS. WEST:  We've stopped at 32 minutes and 37 seconds.

13        Q.   The person who is on the screen now in black, who is that?

14        A.   That's my commander, the commander of my unit, of the

15     10th Sabotage Detachment, Milorad Pelemis.

16             MS. WEST:  We'll continue.

17                           [Video-clip played]

18             MS. WEST:  We're at 32 minutes and 44 seconds.

19        Q.   This man in black as well, was he in your unit?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And on the screen someone has just said, "Miso, move slowly."

22     Was that Milorad Pelemis's nickname?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. WEST:  We'll continue.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 24179

 1             MS. WEST:  We're at 33 minutes and 3 seconds.

 2        Q.   Do you recognise this building?

 3        A.   That's the municipal building in Srebrenica.

 4        Q.   What were your orders regarding this building?

 5        A.   To secure it until all the necessary material that was there was

 6     removed.

 7        Q.   Did you advance any farther than this building in the town?

 8        A.   No.  Up to the police station and the municipal building.  We

 9     didn't go any further.

10             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  We'll continue.

11                           [Video-clip played]

12             MS. WEST:  We've concluded at 33 minutes and 20 seconds.

13             Thank you, sir.  I have no further questions.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. West.

15             Mr. Todorovic -- just a second.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, one correction to the exhibit

18     announced 03826 will be Exhibit P4352 and not P4353.  Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Todorovic.  Your testimony in

20     the Popovic et al. case was admitted here in its entirety in lieu of your

21     examination-in-chief, and you'll be now cross-examined by Mr. Karadzic.

22             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.  Good

24     morning to you and everyone else.

25                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

Page 24180

 1        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Todorovic.

 2        A.   Good morning.

 3        Q.   First and foremost, I'd like to thank you for kindly meeting my

 4     associates.  Therefore, I hope this examination will run smoothly and

 5     within the time allocated to us.

 6        A.   Thank you.

 7        Q.   I need to remind both of us to pause between question and answer,

 8     as it seems I present quite a difficulty for the interpreters because we

 9     frequently exchange many words in our language.  Could we please both

10     bear that in mind.

11        A.   Thank you.

12        Q.   You lived in Kladanj; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Is it true that in Kladanj there were about 20 per cent of Serbs?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Is it correct that the entire 20 per cent fled at the beginning

17     of the war or on the eve of the war?  They all fled from Kladanj.

18        A.   Some fled before, some on the very eve of the war, and whoever

19     stayed behind, well, some of them didn't survive, others ended up in a

20     camp.

21        Q.   So how many Serbs were there in Kladanj who were free in May or

22     June, who were not dead or imprisoned?

23        A.   Only those who joined the Patriotic League.

24        Q.   Thank you.  You fled on time.  In what month?

25        A.   In May.

Page 24181

 1        Q.   Thank you.  We need to break between questions and answers.

 2             After that, was your house in Kladanj set on fire?

 3        A.   All houses around Kladanj and the villages surrounding Kladanj

 4     were attacked and torched.

 5        Q.   Before the war were you aware of any Muslim preparations for war

 6     in terms of organising the Green Berets and the Patriotic League?  Did

 7     you have such information?  And I do not mean rumours but reliable

 8     information.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did the Serb side have any paramilitary formations in Kladanj?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Upon your departure you reported to the

13     Sekovici Brigade.  Was that the way you responded to the JNA call-up and

14     was it still at the time when the JNA was a legitimate armed force in

15     Bosnia?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Vlasenica, Sekovici, and the area had a single military post

18     number from the pre-war JNA period.  This was continued in the first few

19     months of the war; is that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   You were in the Sekovici Brigade for a while.  In the meanwhile,

22     did you join any other forces or units?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Can you tell us which ones?

25        A.   The assault platoon which was formed in Vlasenica.

Page 24182

 1        Q.   It was all within the JNA structure, and later on when the VRS

 2     was formed, it fell within their structure; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You never joined any paramilitary formation on the Serb side in

 5     Bosnia?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did the JNA and later the VRS conduct any offensive

 8     operations in Kladanj and the Serb villages there, or did they provoke an

 9     attack on the Serb villages in question?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Were there many civilians casualties in those Serb villages?

12        A.   Yes.  Out of the total percentage of the population there, there

13     were many dead.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you specify a number of such villages for the

15     Chamber, the attacked Serb villages in the municipality of Kladanj?

16        A.   Yes, Vucinici.

17        Q.   Vucinici.  If you look at the screen, you'll be able to observe

18     when the translation of what I said was completed and then you can go on.

19        A.   Konjevici, Kovacici, Mala and Velika Kula, Vranovici, Mladovo,

20     Pajici, Obrcevac, and all the other villages in that area.  I believe

21     this is enough.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Are there any residents in those Serb villages?  Did

23     anyone return?

24        A.   A very small percentage did.

25        Q.   You also went through Janja frequently, which was a majority

Page 24183

 1     Muslim settlement in the municipality of Bijeljina; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   To be even more accurate, one couldn't get to Bijeljina or Brcko

 4     without going through Janja; correct?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Was Janja ever attacked by the Serb army?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   In your municipality of Kladanj, was there a single Serb village

 9     that was spared, what was not attacked?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Thank you.  You -- you and the Serbs from the area fled without

12     being able to take anything with you.  You only took what was basically

13     on you; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   When did you join the 10th Sabotage Detachment?  It was in the

16     fall of 1992, was it not?

17        A.   No, 1994.

18        Q.   I apologise.  1994.  Until 1994, you were still with the

19     Assault Platoon of the Sekovici or Birac Brigade.

20        A.   Yes, the Special Police of the Sekovici Brigade.  I was there for

21     a while as well.

22        Q.   Was the platoon disbanded and another brigade formed?

23        A.   The Sekovici Platoon was disbanded, and I joined the

24     Vlasenica Intervention Platoon.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you explain for the Chamber the situation in the

Page 24184

 1     area given the fact that fighting broke out there somewhat later than in,

 2     say, Sarajevo where it all began on the 6th of April?  Do you know how

 3     the atmosphere there developed in terms of tensions when you arrived

 4     there?

 5        A.   Well, there was tension, but nobody mistreated anyone else.  No

 6     one forced anyone to join the Serb army.  There were Muslims there,

 7     though, in Vlasenica, quite a percentage of them.

 8        Q.   Am I correct in saying that the Serb youngsters were under an

 9     obligation to join the army, whereas the Muslim were not?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Sekovici and Vlasenica, and Vlasenica is better off economically

12     than Sekovici, but did both settlements receive quite a large number of

13     refugees right at the outset?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Am I correct in saying that all those refugees had fled without

16     being able to take anything with them in haste and that the new

17     municipality of their arrival was supposed to accommodate them in terms

18     of finding places for them to sleep and providing food for those

19     families?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And the refugees like you joined the army, whereas the population

22     that was not fit for military service was accommodated in different

23     locations and depended on the municipality for food; is that correct?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  The influx of refugees who told the stories of their

Page 24185

 1     lives, did all of that lead to a rise in tensions in Sekovici, and in

 2     particular Vlasenica, all the places they were staying at?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  I would like to ask you the following:  You were in

 5     the Territorial Defence -- or, rather, a reservist of the JNA.  Did you

 6     do your military service before that?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Which service?

 9        A.   The infantry.

10        Q.   All right.  After doing your military service, did you become

11     part of the reserve force?  Did you get a wartime assignment, as was

12     usually the case with reservists?

13        A.   Yes.  It is on that basis that we were called up for military

14     exercises and drills.

15        Q.   Did you attend such exercises and drills before the war?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   On that occasion did you take your uniform home and some weapons

18     and perhaps some noncombat gear, all the things that a soldier has?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Can we therefore agree that the entire reserve force of the JNA,

21     that is to say, all of those who did their military service, could have

22     some military equipment at home, either uniforms only or also gas masks

23     and small shovels and the like, and some even had rifles and other light

24     weapons; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24186

 1        Q.   Thank you.  When you joined these units, did you, and if so in

 2     which way and how, hear or feel that these units would work on destroying

 3     Muslims, killing them or expelling them?

 4        A.   As -- these units were only used for defence in case there was an

 5     attack by Muslim units.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  There were lines of separation or confrontation

 7     between Sekovici and Kladanj, weren't they?  And on the other side,

 8     weren't there a lot more Serb villages than there were Muslim villages on

 9     this side?

10        A.   The line was established.  Tuzla, Kladanj, Sarajevo, was the line

11     that followed the road between these towns.

12        Q.   Did this line coincide with the ethnic pattern, that is to say

13     where there were Serb majorities and Muslim majorities?

14        A.   Eighty per cent of Serb villages remained on their side.

15        Q.   The Serb army at that point in time and all the way up until the

16     end of the war, did it ever launch any kind of offences against Kladanj

17     with the intention of liberating Kladanj, or were these only defence

18     operations as they tried to link up Kladanj and Drina?

19        A.   If we look at the line where the war started, this was the

20     defence line.  That is how the war ended.  That was the situation at the

21     end of the war too.

22        Q.   Without any major shifts in that area.  Is that what you're

23     trying to say?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to move on to this other part that

Page 24187

 1     we are particularly interested in.  Let us first look at the nature of

 2     your unit.  Is it correct that your unit was mostly used behind enemy

 3     lines?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did they also have their own sabotage terrorist

 6     groups, as we call them, in our area, behind the lines again?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Now I'd like to ask you the following:  We call those groups

 9     sabotage terrorist groups.  Do you agree that out of these groups of

10     theirs -- that as far as these groups of theirs are concerned, their

11     victims were mainly civilians on our side and -- on our side and drivers

12     from the bauxite mine and so on and so forth.  Our unit, the

13     10th Sabotage Detachment, did it have permission or orders to kill

14     civilians behind enemy lines?

15        A.   Not civilians.  Just to carry out sabotage and to create

16     confusion on their side and in case of dire necessity to defend itself.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know that between the protected areas, the

18     safe havens, when they were established, and Kladanj civilians did pass?

19     Civilians went to Central Bosnia, and sabotage groups went there all the

20     time, sabotage groups of the Muslim army, and it was necessary to provide

21     security on that road every time when people had to take it?

22        A.   Yes.  That's where they passed.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that for quite a long time we tolerated

24     the existence of their units behind our lines, in our rear, far away from

25     the lines, in Kladanj, and for a long time they held under their control

Page 24188

 1     Kamenica and other Zvornik villages via Cerska, that is in Vlasenica, and

 2     then they also held Konjevic Polje, and they linked up Srebrenica and

 3     Kamenica, that entire area?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that at one point in time they

 6     attacked vehicles that were transporting bauxite to Zvornik and that they

 7     killed the drivers of these vehicles and they seized these trucks?  Later

 8     on they called this the operation against the Chetniks, but these were

 9     actually workers.

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  At the time when they had this main road under their

12     control, and this entire area, too, we had to go via Sekovici, Crni Vrh

13     and Caparde in order to reach Zvornik; right?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Is it correct that there were ambushes on that road, too, and

16     that they would kill, say, all the passengers on a bus and a lot of small

17     passenger cars and that that road was very unsafe too?

18        A.   Yes.  That happened at Crni Vrh, because that was the closest

19     road via Memici that led to their own territory.  That's how they went

20     back to their own territory.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you the following:  Your unit,

22     would it also be attached at moments -- actually, did it have an

23     anti-terrorist component as well?  Was your unit used against these

24     groups of theirs or only in their rear?

25        A.   Yes, yes.  It was used depending on how the situation developed

Page 24189

 1     on the ground.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Then all of a sudden it would receive an assignment,

 3     and you as a logistics person would provide food and ammunition for such

 4     an operation; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Weapons and leftover ammunition were handed back after an

 7     operation.  Was the ammunition counted, and was everything registered,

 8     the amount of ammunition used and so on and so forth?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that the commander, depending on the

11     task he received from the Main Staff, would decide what kind of weapons

12     and ammunition would be issues to the unit, and would he, for example,

13     say that zoljas should be taken or heavy machine-guns?  Was he the one

14     who decided on a case-by-case basis?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Between such actions, operations, weapons were kept

17     in storage and members could not go into town armed; right?  Unless it

18     was for personal protection and safety.

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that this unit had a mixed ethnic

21     composition, that it consisted of Muslims, Croats, even Slovenes?  I

22     don't know whether there were any Hungarians there, but I know that there

23     were Hungarians in other units.  So was it an ethnically mixed unit?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Is it correct that that's the way it was until the very end?

Page 24190

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  You spoke about that when you testified in Popovic on

 3     page 13989.  I think that that's the right page reference.

 4     Unfortunately, no, I turned this into words, so the page -- actually, I

 5     have page 12 out of the 77 pages.  Well, anyway, that will be taken care

 6     of.

 7             Was there a particular culture in that unit, a particular

 8     atmosphere?  Was there an atmosphere of ethnic intolerance, chauvinism?

 9     Was there anything in that unit that would be considered illegal and

10     established as such?

11        A.   They were professional -- professionals, just like we were.  They

12     were protected.  They were a part in the Bijeljina Detachment.

13        Q.   Do you agree that they would not have stayed on in that unit had

14     this unit had a culture of enmity and animosity vis-a-vis other

15     ethnicities?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  To the best of your knowledge, what was the situation

18     in the protected areas in terms of food supply and food production by the

19     peasants themselves, then as far as the passage of convoys was concerned

20     and going out into Serb villages and stealing Serbian cattle?

21             MS. WEST:  Objection.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   In a word, were they hungry?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

25             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  This was -- this witness's

Page 24191

 1     Popovic testimony and the testimony today has nothing to do with the food

 2     supply or the convoys.  It's beyond the scope.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Well, the accused is able to put the question about

 4     his case if the witness is able to answer, is he not, Ms. West?

 5             MS. WEST:  It is, Your Honour.  It's just the way that question

 6     was formulated I do not understand it that he was putting his case to

 7     him.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  On a separate note, Ms. West, I just found out there

 9     were some parts that were dealt with private session in the Popovic case.

10             MS. WEST:  Your Honour, if I can have a few minutes on that, we

11     will check that out.

12             JUDGE KWON:  First, I know it's page 13999, and about three

13     pages.  I'm not sure whether there are further parts that were dealt with

14     in -- dealt with in private session.  Could you check it out.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Could you --

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll explain, Excellency, why I'm

17     putting this question.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Please carry on.

19             Mr. Todorovic, do you remember the question?  But I would like

20     the accused to reformulate his question.

21             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

24        Q.   Is it correct that in the enclaves there was a life going on,

25     that they had a functioning agriculture throughout, that they had

Page 24192

 1     convoys, and in addition to that, they were looting our villages,

 2     stealing our cattle?  I'm asking that, because at one point of time you

 3     were given the task to gather this cattle, and did this cattle actually

 4     have to do with their incursions into Serb territory?

 5        A.   All the convoys that were sent to the enclaves, the protected

 6     areas, passed by our check-points unhindered.  They were treated with

 7     maximum fairness.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9        A.   As for their incursions in our villages, they took whatever they

10     could find, which means at Christmas not a single pig was left for

11     roasting, and yet they don't eat pork.  As for any other cattle, they

12     would pick up anything they found.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that military activity outside Zepa and

14     Srebrenica was constant despite the fact that these were protected areas,

15     and are you aware of such incursions into our villages?

16        A.   There was Kravica, and the attack came from the protected area.

17     It was led by Naser Oric.  Everyone knows how those people were killed

18     and mutilated.  There are documents which speak to that.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You were accommodated in Vlasenica for the most part;

20     correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And you know of their excursions, so to say, in Milici as well.

23        A.   Yes.  The mine there.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpret's correction:  The village is called

25     Rudnik and up to Derventa.

Page 24193

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I'll share with you a few dates from their documents.

 3     I won't go to the period before May, because you were still not in the

 4     area; correct.

 5        A.   Yes.  But we were there with the assault detachment as well when

 6     they came in for the first time, when they killed the drivers and workers

 7     at the mine.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On the 2nd of June, it seems there was a sabotage

 9     action carried out on the road against the -- against the soldiers.  Was

10     the village in question Drum near Vlasenica?

11        A.   Yes.  Drum was inhabited by Muslims.

12        Q.   So their attack came from there and then they opened fire at the

13     command?

14        A.   They opened fire on the Panorama Hotel where there were JNA

15     officers as well Serb personnel.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Let us go to 1995.  I have a plan here of the

17     Drina Corps for June 1995.  It seems to be for June.  There is no mention

18     whatsoever of any operation against Srebrenica.  Did you know that

19     Srebrenica was to be captured, and do you agree that the first and

20     foremost task was to sever the enclaves of Srebrenica and Zepa because

21     they linked them up unlawfully?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, if we can just have a cite for a plan.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, and put one question at a time, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise to the

Page 24194

 1     Prosecution.  I will have the document registered or tendered through one

 2     of the next witnesses, perhaps over the break.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   So do you agree that at the time the first and main task was to

 5     return the Muslims within the boundaries of defined protected areas and

 6     to free the route between Milici and Skelani; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you agree that because of the fact that they linked up their

 9     enclaves between Milici and Skelani, instead of travelling 50 kilometres

10     from one point to the next one had to go the roundabout way, which took

11     about 150 kilometres?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You were sent to Srebrenica.  Is it true that it was customary

14     that your commander would tell you your task immediately prior to its

15     execution?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You entered Srebrenica on the 11th of July, sometime in the

18     afternoon.  When did you enter Srebrenica exactly?

19        A.   Well, around noon or early in the afternoon.  We split at

20     Zeleni Jadar into two combat groups.

21        Q.   When did you arrive in Zeleni Jadar?

22        A.   On the 10th in the evening.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know that before the 10th, starting with the

24     5th, there was fighting to the south of Srebrenica in the area of

25     Zeleni Jadar, that is to say, between Zepa and Srebrenica?

Page 24195

 1        A.   Yes.  They were trying to defend the road, the route they had for

 2     the supply of weapons into Zepa and the other way.  They smuggled weapons

 3     and food as well.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Once you arrived there, basically none of that

 5     resistance was left; correct?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   Did you have any information as to what was going on with their

 8     killed soldiers?  Were they buried by our army before your arrival?  The

 9     casualties who were killed the week before, starting with the 5th, did

10     they have casualties?

11        A.   Not in our area of responsibility.  There were no casualties

12     there.

13        Q.   Yes, when you arrived, but how about before that when they were

14     still trying to defend the area?

15        A.   Well, possibly.  I'm certain there were casualties on both sides.

16     It's a forested area, but I didn't go in that part of the field.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I note the time.  If it is convenient,

18     we'll take a break now for 20 minutes.

19             We will resume at 10.40.

20                           --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 10.42 a.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

23             MS. WEST:  Thank you, Mr. President.  We have uploaded a public

24     redacted version of the Popovic testimony.  That number is 65 ter 22406A.

25     I thank you for your correction.  I did notice one other page.  That

Page 24196

 1     mistake is mine.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So shall we give the separate number for the public

 3     redacted version.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, P4353.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Is it correct that you as a person in charge of logistics were

 9     not privy to operational documents and that the documents you worked with

10     had to do with the needs of the unit per task?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that you never heard or were present

13     when Pelemis received any records from an officer of the Main Staff?

14     Perhaps you saw him talking to someone, but you didn't hear any specific

15     orders he may have received; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   You said so in 2004 as well, but perhaps there is no need to call

18     up those documents.  Let us go back to your entry in Srebrenica.  You

19     entered on the 11th.  Is it true that in the town of Srebrenica there

20     were neither their army nor their population?

21        A.   There were none along the axis we came in.

22        Q.   In other words, they left Srebrenica, and your entry in

23     Srebrenica was not a violent one.  There was no shooting or people being

24     killed; correct?  I mean the entry down into Srebrenica itself.

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24197

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you something about a footage we saw.  At

 2     2510, it seems we saw one of your soldiers with a headband.  Was it

 3     customary that soldiers wear unconventional items like that, or did other

 4     soldiers have those headbands as well?

 5             Would you like me to replay it?

 6        A.   No.  I guess people wore it for the sake of their image, at least

 7     as far as our soldiers were concerned.  As for the Muslim soldiers, they

 8     had headbands which said "tekbir Allahu akbar."  All of their soldiers

 9     wore such headbands as well as their mercenaries.

10        Q.   Tekbir.  It seems we have a problem with the Turkish term.

11        A.   Allahu akbar.  It was their combat cry, whenever they attacked

12     our fortifications or villages.  Who did they fight for?  For Allah.

13        Q.   If such a headband were in a grave for a while could the text

14     disappear and the band remain, actually?

15        A.   Well, it all depended on the quality of the fabric.

16             MS. WEST:  Objection.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. West.

18             MS. WEST:  This is not a witness for that answer, and also it

19     calls for speculation.  He would have no basis to answer a question like

20     that.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely, Ms. West.

22             Please move on, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   At 25:53 we see that in addition to the shoulder patch, a soldier

Page 24198

 1     also had a red ribbon.  Was it customary to wear such ribbons to prevent

 2     any friendly fire?

 3        A.   Yes.  This is how we distinguished our soldiers among themselves

 4     from the enemy so that they wouldn't start shooting at each other.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Did you change the colour of such ribbons daily so

 6     that the enemy couldn't imitate it?

 7        A.   It depended on the situation where the soldiers were, and we were

 8     able to change it every day so that the enemy would be unable to know

 9     what we wore on what day.

10        Q.   At 30 minutes, we hear Mladic mention the Dahijas.  Since those

11     participating in the proceedings need not necessarily know what it is,

12     can you please confirm or deny this.  Do you agree that the Dahijas

13     rebelled against the Sultan as well as against the Serb local authorities

14     during the Turkish occupation and that they were the evil kind who even

15     disobeyed the Sultan's laws?

16        A.   Yes.  The Dahijas were renegades.  They committed crimes and did

17     not report to either the Sultan or the Agas or Begs who were other

18     Turkish aristocracy.

19        Q.   Do you remember that Milenko Stojkovic killed them in the end and

20     that Karadjordje received the Sultan's approval for that?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Let me ask you this:  In these crimes and outrages, was

23     Naser Oric a modern-day Dahija, as it were?

24        A.   Well, chance had it that I had occasion to also talk with people

25     who were members of his unit, so he was not very friendly to his own

Page 24199

 1     people and arrogant with his own people, let alone others.

 2        Q.   Now, did you understand that they were actually revenging on the

 3     population or was it on the Dahijas, or, rather, the Oric men?  Well, it

 4     is not accidental that he mentioned the Dahijas when referring to Oric's

 5     territory.

 6        A.   Yes.  Those people had wreaked a lot of evil to the people and

 7     the population around Srebrenica, Milici, Vlasenica.  There were

 8     thousands of victims that were in fact at the hands of Naser's

 9     commanding.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now, when you entered Srebrenica, there was no

11     shelling or shooting in any real sense of the word; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   However, the video that we were shown, we can see that there was

14     some sporadic fire and that Mladic asked where the fire was coming from.

15     Was that shooting actually coming from the Muslim side?  Well, maybe you

16     don't know.  If you don't know, just say so.

17        A.   Well, I do know.  Many of those units actually went into the

18     woods, and for another month or so they still terrorised the population

19     in the area.  They would break into Serbian villages and they would

20     destroy everything that was in their way.  They were trying to break

21     through to Tuzla.

22        Q.   [No interpretation]

23        A.   [No interpretation]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We didn't get any interpretation.

25             With respect to the previous question, I'm not sure whether we

Page 24200

 1     heard your answer to the question whether the sporadic fire we saw or

 2     heard in the video were coming from the Muslim side.  Mr. Todorovic?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But you confirmed that the -- they went into the

 5     woods to break into Serbian villages.  So you are saying to us that they

 6     were firing from the woods against the Serbs who were entering the

 7     Srebrenica town.  Is that what you're saying, Mr. Todorovic?

 8             THE ACCUSED:  I don't think we got translation.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mm-hmm.  I will repeat the question.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there was renegade groups.

11     They were actually broken-up groups, stragglers, and they were on the

12     periphery of Srebrenica, the outskirts of Srebrenica.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.  Please continue.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, you mentioned Milici.  Is it correct that they

17     engaged our units on their way, on their attempt to break through, and

18     where our units were deployed, they attacked Serb villages and killed

19     civilians?

20        A.   Yes.  Below Milici, there is -- on the way out of Milici there is

21     a house there.  Fortunately, there -- well, there was a whole family

22     there that they killed.  Fortunately, they did not -- their son was not

23     there, so they didn't end the line.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Now, let me just ask you whether you saw any signs of

25     the fighting, the destruction?  Did you see any destruction in Srebrenica

Page 24201

 1     itself?  In other words, did Srebrenica suffer a lot of devastation in

 2     this operation?

 3        A.   As for our movement through Srebrenica and my unit, the

 4     Sabotage Detachment and other units as well, not a single house was

 5     torched, although we did search every house in order to try to determine

 6     whether any of their soldiers actually changed into civilian clothing.

 7     We wanted to make sure as we were passing through that none of them would

 8     be left behind so they could open fire behind our backs.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just one more clarifying question, Mr. Todorovic.

10             In your previous answer as regards the Muslim forces, you said

11     many of those units went into the woods and for a month they still

12     terrorised the population in the area.

13             Do you remember having said that?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  What population were you referring to?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, whenever they tried to break

17     through in order to link up with Tuzla via Crni Vrh, Baljkovica, the road

18     going across or over Cerska, Kamenica, Memici.  Whenever they came to

19     Serb villages, they killed in order to loot their clothes or bandages or

20     civilian clothes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So in addition to the group that pulled out by the 16th of July,

25     there were some straggling groups in that area; correct?

Page 24202

 1        A.   Well, the group that was led out by Tursunovic, they went via

 2     Baljkovica, and they killed members of the Drina Brigade there.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you have any information as to how fierce

 4     that fighting was, that it was so fierce that, for instance, the

 5     Zvornik Brigade lost more men during this breakout attempt of theirs than

 6     through the entire war period?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  At one point, and I'll tell you exactly where, you

 9     said that General Mladic said, and that's on page 14005 of this

10     transcript that was admitted into evidence, that Mladic said that you

11     should withdraw and that you had 48 hours at your disposal to search

12     everything and take whatever you wanted.

13             Is it correct that that did not refer to private property but,

14     rather, to the equipment that was the property of the 28th Division?

15        A.   Precisely so.  Only stuff that we found such as weapons,

16     uniforms, insignia.  In other words, things that we might want as

17     trophies or souvenirs.

18        Q.   Thank you.  When was it then that you left Srebrenica after you

19     entered it?

20        A.   I left Srebrenica on the 12th.

21        Q.   Was that in the early hours?

22        A.   Well, around 10.00, 11.00 a.m.

23        Q.   While you were there, there was no killing, no bombing, nothing

24     extraordinary, nothing critical; correct?

25        A.   No.  Only on the 11th we were bombed by aircraft.

Page 24203

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You were in charge of collecting cattle, and that's

 2     the cattle that was roaming in the areas because they were deserted.

 3        A.   Well, yes.  This was the looted private property.  The cattle was

 4     looted from villagers, because there were a lot of people there who did

 5     nothing other than go around looting.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  When did Major Pecanac arrive?  The transcript does

 7     not reflect that this was cattle that was looted from Serb villages.

 8     That's what you said, correct, that they were lotted from our villages?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Major Pecanac, who may have been a captain at the

11     time, arrived then and he came to your base; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   You saw the vehicle that was usually driven by Vujadin Popovic on

14     that occasion; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   However, you could not identify him with certainty as the driver.

17     You knew that there was a -- there was someone in the vehicle, but you

18     couldn't identify whether it was him or not?

19        A.   Well, yes, that's correct.  It was his vehicle, but whether he

20     was driving the car or not, I really don't know.  It is possible, but

21     it's also possible that it wasn't.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, Pecanac -- or, rather, who was it who stood in

23     for your commander while he was absent?

24        A.   Well, whoever had the rank at the time.  A combat group leader or

25     someone like that.

Page 24204

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And he addressed whom?

 2        A.   He addressed Obrenovic, and I later found out why, but at the

 3     time when they were having this conversation, I was not there.  I did not

 4     dare walk up to them.

 5        Q.   Oh, I see.  So you just heard their quarrel, but you couldn't

 6     really make out what it was that they were quarreling about; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   He then spoke to Gojkovic, because Obrenovic turned him down.  He

 9     said that he wouldn't do it because the commander wasn't there; correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11        Q.   And then he turned to Gojkovic and asked for several soldiers

12     because they had to go on a mission; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Franc Kos, who was the lieutenant, did -- was he at the base at

15     the time?

16        A.   Yes, and he took up a -- upon himself this role.

17        Q.   Was Franc Kos a Slovene?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Was Drazen Erdemovic there?

20        A.   Erdemovic was with me in Trebinje, but he volunteered.  He was

21     not forced to go.  And he was a sergeant.  That's -- that was his rank.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do you agree that this was on the 15th?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Do you remember that at the request of the civilian

25     authorities from Srebrenica, Skelani, Bratunac, on the 14th I declared a

Page 24205

 1     state of war, although the fighting around Srebrenica had already ended.

 2     And the reason that was done was because of all these straggling groups

 3     that were still in the woods.

 4        A.   Yes.  Those groups killed four men from Milici in Kupusina, I

 5     believe.  That's in the direction of Zepa.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that they were -- that had they

 7     organised themselves well, they could have taken any town they wanted,

 8     these 13- to 15.000 men who headed for Tuzla?  Is it correct that the

 9     threat from them was real?

10        A.   Well, they knew the defences of our lines, and they knew how they

11     were not too well defended, so they could take any area there.  With

12     15.000 men, they could go in any direction.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The witness mentioned some

14     places that I didn't catch.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Thank you --

17             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters noted they didn't catch some of the

18     names of the places Mr. Todorovic said.  Could you repeat the names of

19     the places?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, this group -- or, rather,

21     this formation of 15.000 men, they were able to capture Milici,

22     Vlasenica, and the entire road through towards Kladanj, but also towards

23     Zvornik and Tuzla.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now I would like to ask you this.  As always, not

Page 24206

 1     knowing the details of the operation, you issued certain equipment to

 2     them; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Could we now please see the list of the issued equipment, and I

 5     believe this is in one of the associate exhibits.

 6             Let me ask you this:  Is it correct that you issued a

 7     machine-gun, M-84 machine-gun, ammunition for this machine-gun, as well

 8     as ammunition for automatic rifles?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.  There was also a zolja and a small mortar,

10     shells, water, blankets, sleeping bags and other stuff that they needed

11     for 48 hours, such as food, water, and so on.

12        Q.   Is it correct that they were also issued rations and cans of

13     food, and is it correct that they were equipped for survival basically

14     outside of any human settlements?

15        A.   Yes, that's absolutely so.

16        Q.   So if they had -- if their mission was to execute some

17     individuals, would they need cans of food, blankets, water, and other

18     items that you would need if you were to spend some time in uninhabited

19     places, or if they had been assigned such a task, would they go to towns

20     and obtain their own necessities there?  In other words, were they

21     equipped for some period of time that they would spend in an inhabited

22     area or uninhabited areas, in the field as it were?

23        A.   Well, they were equipped to spend 48 hours or up to 48 hours

24     wherever they found themselves, whether they had to secure a road,

25     whether they had to escort someone or spend some time in the woods,

Page 24207

 1     anything of that sort.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know which direction they went?

 3        A.   There are several directions there.  The first one was when they

 4     moved from the base to Sekovici.  Then there is another branch leading to

 5     Kladanj and then Trnovo --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please slow down, notes the

 7     interpreter.  We cannot follow this.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreter could not follow.  Could you repeat

 9     from the start.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This unit, once it left the

11     compound, the base, that is, they took the road towards Sekovici.

12     However, part of the road leads to Kladanj, so they could have taken that

13     part.  Then also they could have also gone to Trnovo, Pelemisi, Memici,

14     Osmaci, Crni Vrh, Baljkovica, Zvornik.  So they could have gotten

15     anywhere moving in that direction.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.  But they set out from Vlasenica to the left, westward

18     toward Sekovici.  Now, let me ask you this:  If they were supposed to

19     reach Zvornik as soon as possible would they have taken a different

20     route, towards Nova Kasaba?

21        A.   Possibly.

22        Q.   That's the main road, isn't it?

23        A.   Yes, that's the main road.

24        Q.   Whereas Crni Vrh, Caparde, et cetera, that road is a roundabout

25     road, but that was where the breakthrough of the Muslim units took place.

Page 24208

 1        A.   Yes.  That is where Naser broke through.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Commander Pelemis, when entering Srebrenica, did he

 3     issue some instructions or orders in relation to what lay in store for

 4     you there and in terms of what you should do?

 5        A.   Before each and every operation, my commander would line up the

 6     detachment and issue orders saying that we should take care of one

 7     another, that we should take care of ourselves.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Did he tell you that their soldiers had changed into

 9     civilian clothing, a large number of them who had now gone into the

10     woods, and that you should be careful so as not to be killed by one of

11     them?

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear an answer.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Todorovic.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Which answer?  This last one you

15     mean?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean when Pelemis is lining up

18     people, the entire detachment, before an operation, drawing the attention

19     of all soldiers to the fact that they should take care of themselves.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Did he tell you about the soldiers who changed into

21     civilian clothing?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ah.  That is something that he

23     particularly drew our attention to, because he's an experienced officer,

24     and he spent a lot of time at the front line, and he said that that kind

25     of things happens in 90 per cent of all situations, when people go into

Page 24209

 1     towns, that they change their clothes.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did he say anything about treating civilians, Muslim

 4     civilians, who were assumed to have been in Srebrenica still?

 5        A.   If we were to come across any civilians or military-aged

 6     soldiers, we were to get close to them.  There should be proper security,

 7     and these people should be taken to Potocari.

 8        Q.   Was there an explicit ban on inflicting any kind of suffering on

 9     civilians?

10        A.   Every time when the unit would get lined up, that was referred

11     to.  When civilians did not put up any resistance, no one could touch

12     them.  It was only if soldiers took action against us then we should

13     respond in kind.

14        Q.   Thank you.  While you were in Srebrenica, you saw many civilians

15     in Potocari.  Did you go to Potocari?

16        A.   No.  I saw that in the media.  We only came to the police station

17     and the municipality.  That's where we provided security, and that was

18     the end of any kind of combat activity of my unit.

19        Q.   Thank you.  In the proofing note that the OTP sent this morning,

20     it says that you did not see any victims except for one body that wore

21     NATO camouflage uniform and that you thought that this may have been a

22     Serb, and later on this turned out to be a Muslim; is that right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Four or five bodies that did appear on the film.  Did you not see

25     any of that.

Page 24210

 1        A.   I saw that, but that was on the 12th when our unit was not

 2     involved in combat.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that in addition to Erdemovic who was a

 4     Croat there was also a Mladen who was also a Croat in your unit?

 5        A.   Yes.  Mladjo was his nickname.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Is it correct that this Dreza and his family had also

 7     fled from Sarajevo?

 8        A.   Yes.  They were staying at Pale.

 9        Q.   Can it be said that most of the members of your unit had been

10     relocated or, rather, had fled from somewhere?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   You also gave and statement to the FBI; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   How did that happen?  How come they expressed interest?

15             MS. WEST:  Objection.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Witness is not in the position to answer that

17     question, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's in the transcript.

19     It's page 14019, line 8.  I don't see why the objection.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's upload at that page.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 8.

22             MS. WEST:  Mr. President, the fact -- the fact of the interview

23     is there, but the question that was asked is not one in which this

24     witness can answer.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The part Ms. West objected to was the

Page 24211

 1     question:  "How come they expressed interest?"  You didn't ask the

 2     witness what he heard from them but the intention of the FBI.  But I'm

 3     fine with you putting the passage to the witness and ask a question.

 4             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think that sometimes when

 6     someone is interviewing a person they tell them the reason why they're

 7     conducting that interview.  So it seems like if the witness could

 8     answer --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Well, he can ask whether he heard anything, but he

10     can reformulate his question.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, what is your question?

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Did you find this unusual, that a US investigation agency was

14     expressing interest in interviewing you?

15        A.   At first glance, yes, but later on when Boskic fell in America --

16     he was a member of the sabotage detachment --

17        Q.   I see.  Thank you.  So that had to do with that?

18        A.   Well, yes, he fell there in America as a member of the

19     10th Sabotage Detachment.  I really don't know what he said there.  Maybe

20     they needed to compare something to his statement or whatever.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have great trouble

22     hearing Mr. Karadzic.  Could he please speak into the microphone.  Thank

23     you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your question, and please speak

25     into the microphone.

Page 24212

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   On page 14028, you said that Pecanac was refused soldiers, and

 4     that was due to the fact that there was no commander -- or, rather, the

 5     commander was not there to issue any orders, and we do not have any proof

 6     of that being due to the nature of the mission involved; right?

 7        A.   Well, yes.  The only proper order would have come from

 8     Commander Pelemis to send -- to send the unit out into the field.  One

 9     always acted in accordance with his orders.

10        Q.   Thank you.  The quantities of material that you issued to this

11     group from the unit on the 15th, were they any different from the usual

12     kind of supplies that you issued?

13        A.   That was always prepared when a combat group was going out into

14     the field.  Because no one could foresee what would happen in the field,

15     what the unit or the combat group would do out in the field, whether they

16     would be spending the night out there.  Did they have to be provided with

17     various equipment so that they could stay there safely.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On page 14041, from line 11 onwards, you said that

19     there were ABiH members everywhere, and you also refer to the

20     breakthroughs that you told us about a moment ago.  All of that is on

21     that page, isn't it?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   The cattle that you had gathered previously had been stolen from

24     us.  You said that on page 14043; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 24213

 1        Q.   When did you hear -- or, rather, did you hear of large numbers of

 2     casualties all over the place during that breakthrough?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And did you hear, and if so how, of any unlawful killings,

 5     liquidations?

 6        A.   That's when the arrests of my unit started.

 7        Q.   And that was when, a few years after that?

 8        A.   Yes.  Yes.  It was in the media, but, you know, the media will be

 9     the media, newspapers and whatever.

10        Q.   So you didn't trust the media.  Do you remember that the media

11     also said that in Cerska in 1993, blood was flowing down the streets,

12     that there were massacres there?  Is that the kind the propaganda that

13     led you to disregard the media?

14        A.   Well, yes.  When that happened in Cerska, they killed 28 or 29

15     people from Vlasenica.

16             MS. WEST:  Objection, Your Honour, relevance.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Ms. West?

18             MS. WEST:  I object to these media questions for relevance

19     reasons.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's related to his attitude towards media

21     clippings.  But in any event, he answered the question.  We can move on.

22             But, Mr. Todorovic -- oh, yes.  In answer to the question about

23     the possibility of any unlawful -- unlawful killings, you answered you

24     heard about it for the first time "when the arrest of my unit started."

25     What did you mean by the arrest of your unit?

Page 24214

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, when there were these

 2     proceedings against them.  Then I heard that they had allegedly been

 3     there.  That's as far as the members of my unit are concerned.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell us in more concrete terms what --

 5     what happened, in particular your unit's arrest.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Erdemovic was arrested and

 7     then he opened this case of Pilica something.  I could not have assumed

 8     that these soldiers had been there.  Then Branjevo.  Afterwards,

 9     Marko Boskic was arrested in America.  He also said that he was forced to

10     be in some army and forced to do something, and that was not correct.

11     Also, Erdemovic also said that he was forced to do something at gunpoint.

12     That's not true.  Whoever would have made him doing anything but at

13     gunpoint would have had to answer for it later before the commander.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So by arrest of your unit, you meant arrest of

15     Erdemovic and Boskic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Erdemovic, Boskic, Kos, Golijan,

17     Savanovic, Cvetkovic.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Now I understood.

19             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  I just wanted to remind you -- or, rather, to see

22     whether you disregarded the media because there were similar propaganda

23     every time when there was some kind of fighting and that Cerska had been

24     declared to have been the site of a massacre and none of that had ever

25     happened?

Page 24215

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Do you recall that before the protected area of Srebrenica was

 3     declared it had also been marked as a massacre location by the world

 4     media and that our operations were then stopped and it was still back in

 5     1993?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Witness.  I have no further questions of you.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             Yes, Ms. West.  Do you have any re-examination?

10             MS. WEST:  Very brief.

11                           Re-examination by Ms. West:

12        Q.   Sir, today at about transcript page 31, you were talking about

13     hearing firing on the video.  Mr. Karadzic asked you a couple of

14     questions and then Judge Kwon did as well.  Do you remember those

15     questions?

16        A.   Yes, yes.

17        Q.   And that firing that we heard on the video, when you were there,

18     in fact, you didn't see somebody firing from the woods, did you?

19        A.   No, no.  But it was coming from somewhere else.  We were already

20     in the town itself, and chances are that it was the Muslim army firing

21     unless some Serbs were already celebrating the liberation of Srebrenica.

22     It is my assumption though that their groups had been broken up and that

23     they were in the outskirts of the town or in the forests already.

24        Q.   Okay.  And that's what I want to ask you about.  Can you tell us

25     what happy fire is?

Page 24216

 1        A.   Well, some soldiers got drunk even at home, let alone out in the

 2     field or at the front line.

 3        Q.   And let me ask you again.  Can you -- can you tell me exactly

 4     what happy fire is?

 5        A.   Rejoicing.  You put a magazine, a cartridge of 30 bullets in your

 6     rifle and fire them in the air sort of to make it -- to relieve yourself,

 7     in a way, of tension.

 8        Q.   All right.  And on this video we saw a number of soldiers from

 9     the 10th Sabotage and we also saw some Drina Wolves soldiers as well, but

10     was it the case that there were also other soldiers in the area that we

11     could not see on the video?

12        A.   Of course.  It was an operation.

13             MS. WEST:  Thank you.  I have nothing else.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Well, Mr. Todorovic, that concludes your evidence

15     today, and on my -- on behalf of this Chamber and the Tribunal as a

16     whole, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague again to

17     give it.  Now you are free to go.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. West, do you need a break for -- for the

21     preparation of the next witness?

22             MS. WEST:  I do not.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

24             MS. WEST:  But if we have -- may we go into private session?

25             JUDGE KWON:  I heard that the next witness is to be heard in

Page 24217

 1     closed session.

 2             MS. WEST:  Correct.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So we better go into closed session right now.

 4             MS. WEST:  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll go into closed session.

 6                           [Closed session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 24218











11  Pages 24218-24249 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 24250

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 1.46 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 8th day

 7                           of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.