1 Thursday, 23 February 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 1.32 p.m.
5 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, everyone. The situation continues
6 from yesterday as regards Judge Morrison, so we will continue to sit
7 pursuant to Rule 15 bis.
8 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
9 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon,
10 Mr. President, Your Honours. Could we move into private session, please?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 [Private session]
1 [Open session]
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The Chamber notes the request filed today by
3 the Prosecution for leave to file a reply to the accused's response to
4 Prosecution's second motion to admit evidence of Slobodan Stojkovic
5 without cross-examination, filed on the 21st of February, 2012.
6 The Chamber considers that it would be of assistance to the
7 Chamber in deciding on the issue and therefore grants this request.
8 Unless there are any other matters, then we'll bring in the
10 In the meantime, we'll give the exhibit number for the public
11 redacted version for the transcript.
12 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P4100, 4100.
13 [The witness takes the stand]
14 WITNESS: LJUBOMIR OBRADOVIC [Resumed]
15 [Witness answered through interpreter]
16 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon, General Obradovic.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton, please continue.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honour.
20 Examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]
21 Q. Good afternoon, General Obradovic.
22 A. Good afternoon.
23 Q. Before we move forward, I would just like to deal with a couple
24 of things from yesterday while it might be fresher in yours and
25 everyone's mind, and to begin with I'd like to go back to the
1 organigramme we talked about yesterday. That's now got the
2 Exhibit number P4446, and I think you still have a copy of that
3 organigramme on the table in front of you; is that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Now, during the course of your explanation in the Tolimir case
6 about the structures of the Main Staff and their relationships to one
7 another, you explained the concept of professional control over some
8 units that we see here depicted on the organigramme, saying that
9 professional control does not entail the power to issue orders. The line
10 of issuing orders goes along the line of subordination, which means from
11 the commander. And that's at pages 11960 to 11962.
12 Do you remember giving that explanation, General?
13 A. Yes. Yes.
14 Q. Well, then on the subject of this professional control, I'd like
15 to go back to this organigramme for a little while and have you talk
16 about a couple of the units that we didn't spend much time with
18 First, I'd like to draw your attention to a unit depicted on the
19 bottom left-hand corner, the 67th Communications Regiment.
20 Now, in the Tolimir -- in your Tolimir testimony, you said of
21 this regiment:
22 "Its main task is to organise the communications, to satisfy the
23 communications needs of the Main Staff. It's attached to the commander.
24 In performing its professional duties, it's attached to the arms within
25 the staff sector."
1 That was at pages 11960 to 11961.
2 So when you say this unit is attached to the commander
3 specifically, what do you mean?
4 A. The line of subordination I explained in general terms. It goes
5 down from the commander to the various sectors, the independent
6 administrations, and all the units that you have lined up at the bottom.
7 With regard to the 67th Communications Regiment, the chain of command, as
8 they say in Croatia, or the line of subordination is the black one. It
9 goes down from the commander and then to all the other levels.
10 When Tolimir was contacted about that equipment if that's the
11 case you're referring to in the staff sector, there's a chief of
12 communications of that branch, and he is a professional organ. And
13 through operational evidence, he monitors the condition in the
14 67th Communications Regiment with regard to his communications equipment,
15 with regard to the staff, the manpower, and he is responsible for their
16 professional training.
17 If at one point in time General Miletic played the role of
18 coordinator in the staff sector instead of General Milovanovic, well, in
19 that case it was his responsibility to contact the chief of
20 communications and assign him the task that General Tolimir had requested
21 to be carried out, the task that has to do with those encryption devices
22 and the K/2 device.
23 Q. So you've just indicated that the line of subordination from the
24 commander to the 67th Communications Unit is the black one. Now, does
25 this dotted line to the staff sector --
1 A. No. From the commander to the Communications Regiment, it's the
2 black line, and as for the professional organ, it's the red line. The
3 dotted red line that links up with the 67th Communications Regiment.
4 Q. All right. Then let's go over to the other side of the
5 organigramme --
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. That dotted red line should be
7 connected to chief of communication? Is it your evidence,
8 General Obradovic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is connected to the staff
10 sector, but within the staff sector, the communications organ is part of
11 the organ for the arms -- the arms and services and they're subordinated
12 to the Chief of Staff.
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
14 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
16 Q. So having heard that with respect to the 67th Communications
17 Regiment, maybe we could move over to something called the
18 10th Sabotage Detachment which is on the right-hand side of the
19 organigramme at the bottom. And in your Tolimir testimony at page 11960,
20 you said similarly:
21 "This unit was under the command of the commander while,
22 professionally speaking, they were in a certain sense subordinated to the
23 intelligence administration because of their reconnaissance tasks."
24 Could you explain then in the case of this unit what you mean by
25 professional subordination?
1 A. Your Honours, as in the case of these organs of the arms and
2 services in the staff sector, every has its own field of operations. An
3 infantryman is concerned with the infantry equipment, the staff. He must
4 tell the Chief of Staff if asked what sort of equipment he has. He must
5 provide him with that information.
6 Similarly, the chief of an armed mechanised unit, well, they are
7 responsible for training their units, for keeping records, and this is
8 all done independently.
9 In the case of anti-aircraft defence, the chief of the
10 anti-aircraft defence, he has to act in a similar manner.
11 JUDGE KWON: Let us clarify, because the terms you are using are
12 not consistent with the words that appear in the organigramme, so we are
13 a bit confused.
14 You said chief of armed mechanised unit. Did you mean chief of
15 artillery or chief of armoured and mechanised units? Did you refer to
16 Colonel Trkulja?
17 A. Armoured and mechanised units. Colonel Trkulja was the chief of
18 those units. The chief of engineering, the chief of intelligence, all
19 these chiefs are responsible for their fields, for their profession.
20 They have to keep professional records. They have to monitor the
21 equipment situation, the training of the men. They must always be able
22 to submit suggestions to the chief of the staff and he has to submit
23 suggestions to the commander. So the chief of the intelligence
24 administration, Colonel Salapura, for example, in professional terms he
25 keeps operational records for reconnaissance purposes, for training the
1 men. He has such activities for the Sabotage Detachment. So that is the
2 professional aspect of their responsibilities.
3 JUDGE KWON: Was Colonel Salapura in the position to give orders
4 directly to the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He could have if the commander had
6 authorised him to do so.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 MS. EDGERTON:
9 Q. So then, General, do you think the red dotted line on this
10 organigramme linking the 10th Sabotage Detachment to Colonel Salapura
11 accurately reflects - pardon me - this unit's professional subordination
12 that you've just been describing?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And just who would be responsible then for Colonel Salapura and
15 his professional control of the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
16 A. The first superior of Colonel Salapura was General Tolimir as the
17 chief of sector for intelligence and security affairs.
18 Q. Similarly, was General Tolimir in a position to give orders
19 directly to the 10th Sabotage Detachment?
20 A. Just like Salapura, with the authorisation from the commander.
21 Q. And then finally if we could go over back to the left side of the
22 organigramme, we have something, a unit called the 65th Protection
23 Regiment. Who was its commander?
24 A. Milomir Savcic.
25 Q. Now, also in your Tolimir testimony at page 11962, you indicated
1 that when it's about issuing orders, this unit was related to the
2 commander, and you also pointed out that this unit contained a battalion
3 of military police and that -- and you said that the security
4 administration contained a department in charge of military police
5 affairs. So then what I'd like to know is did the security
6 administration have professional control over the work of the military
7 police battalion of this unit?
8 A. Intelligence or security? What is the question?
9 Q. I specifically said security administration.
10 A. According to the professional line, yes, and through the
11 detachment for the work of the military police.
12 Q. Are you familiar with the nature of that professional control?
13 Could you give us an idea what you mean?
14 A. They monitor work in professional terms. It only concerns these
15 police tasks.
16 Q. In professional terms meaning in what way?
17 A. Well, in this department, the people who completed certain
18 security courses and they were intended for the work of the organs of the
19 military police. These people exercise control in professional terms.
20 Q. And who heads the security administration?
21 A. Colonel Beara.
22 Q. And who is he responsible to?
23 A. To the chief of sector for intelligence and security affairs, to
24 General Tolimir.
25 Q. Is Colonel Beara in a position to give orders to the military
1 police battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment?
2 A. On condition that he received such authorisation from the
4 Q. And would that be the same case with his superior who on this
5 organigramme is listed as General Tolimir?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So does the dotted line linking the military police battalion of
8 this 65th Protection Regiment to the security administration accurately
9 depict the relationship you've just described?
10 A. Yes, it does.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. EDGERTON: If in respect of this organigramme Your Honours
13 have no other questions at this time, I would move on.
14 JUDGE KWON: Just one question. That dotted line from the
15 security administration, i.e., the professional line, is connected to
16 military police battalion, not to the 65th Protection Regiment. Am I
17 correct in so understanding?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the military police
19 unit. From the regiment.
20 JUDGE KWON: So Colonel Beara does not exercise professional
21 control over Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, performing such duties would
23 be done through the regiment commander. I don't know why this was
24 separated here. It should be related to the regiment. The commander of
25 the regiment cannot be bypassed. This military police battalion should
1 not have been indicated separately.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
4 MS. EDGERTON: I'll still move on, Your Honours.
5 Q. General Obradovic, yesterday I asked you whether the commander or
6 other members of the Main Staff had meetings with Dr. Karadzic, and after
7 I reminded you of a question and answer during your evidence in the
8 Popovic case, you said those meetings were within the context of an
9 analysis of combat readiness, and when such analysis were discussed, then
10 there would be political representatives attending.
11 Do you remember that?
12 A. I don't know whether that was the case, because what you have
13 just referred to was four years ago. I think the question concerned
14 General Milovanovic in particular, and the lawyer Petrusic asked whether
15 Miletic was replacing and I said yes. General Milovanovic went to govern
16 meetings and meetings of the Assembly, I believe. So that was the
17 question. And yesterday I thought the question concerned the analysis of
18 combat readiness.
19 Yes. They went to meetings with the supreme commander, but as to
20 how frequently and so on and so forth, I don't know, but there were
21 contacts. They went to government meetings when military issues were
22 also discussed. In 1996, on one occasion, I also went at the beginning
23 of July, I think, to a government meeting where the agenda concerned the
24 military. There were four or five of us and we were led by the Chief of
25 Staff. And that item was item number 18. They put it right at the top.
1 So this was the first item that was discussed so that they could let us
3 Q. I'd like to ask you, General, about this analysis of combat
4 readiness you mentioned yesterday. Who takes part all together in this
5 combat readiness analysis?
6 A. The entire army takes part in the analysis of combat readiness.
7 How do they do this? Well, an analysis is performed for the previous
8 year. This is completed in battalions and divisions. They then refer
9 the case to the commands of brigades and regiments. The commands of
10 brigades and regiments refer the case to the corps command. They then
11 perform analysis of combat readiness there. And when the analysis are
12 completed at the level of the corps command, the level of anti-aircraft
13 defence and in military academies, then you have a combat analysis at the
14 level of the Main Staff, at the level the army. And these annual
15 analysis of combat readiness is an analysis that the political organs
16 participate in. They were in a certain sense present.
17 Q. Was there -- at the level of the Main Staff, was there an
18 analysis, as you've just described, done in 1995?
19 A. In 1995, it was at the end of January that this analysis was
21 Q. And did the political organs take part in that analysis in 1995?
22 A. I think they were present.
23 Q. When you refer to the political organs, who do you mean in
25 A. I mean the president, the vice-presidents, the minister of
1 defence, the speaker of parliament.
2 Q. When you speak of the analysis at the Main Staff level, are there
3 any conclusions drawn as a result?
4 A. On the basis of a plan that is made and when lower-ranking units
5 are informed as to the time and place, then this plan says specifically
6 commander starts the analysis. This goes on for five or ten minutes, and
7 then the 1st Corps follows and the 2nd Corps and so on and so forth, and
8 then the commanders of other units and representatives of military
9 schools and then the chiefs of sectors and of these two independent
10 administrations. The corps commanders, when they take part in the
11 discussion, they finish their remarks by making certain proposals
12 regarding the following period, and then on the basis of that, tasks
13 should be formulated and incorporated into directives as combat
15 Q. Just relating to the answer you've just given, how does the
16 president take part in these presentations?
17 A. He listens to the presentations of the commanders of subordinate
18 units and representatives of the Main Staff.
19 Q. Does the president take part? Does he speak?
20 A. Well, I wasn't present. I don't know whether he took the floor
21 or not, but objectively speaking, he would address the gathering.
22 Q. You mentioned that this -- this analysis would result in tasks
23 which are formulated and incorporated into directives as combat
24 documents. Now, you spoke at length during your testimony in the
25 Tolimir case about directives, and I'm wondering whether the conclusions
1 from this analysis have any relationship with the directives you
2 discussed in your Tolimir testimony.
3 A. Well, part of the tasks and obligations that are formulated as
4 tasks for the forthcoming period are defined as tasks in the directive as
5 a general combat document. So these are the tasks issued to the
7 Directives are combat documents of high commands that spell out
8 for the future, for a longer period, important conclusions relating to
9 combat activities. Detailed tasks are not given to units in these
10 documents. It is the objectives of the activities that are spelled out,
11 the general task and the basic idea of the commander. So subordinate
12 commanders receive through these documents the necessary elements for
13 their own independent planning and execution of combat activities.
14 Q. Did the analysis of combat readiness which you've just spoken
15 about that was conducted in 1995 have any relationship with directive 7?
16 A. If we were to have the documents now and if we would look at
17 conclusions and tasks for particular corps, we would probably see what
18 was proposed to corps commanders, and we would probably see certain tasks
19 that were part of the directive.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that we have to
21 intervene in the transcript where it says that this was proposed to
22 corps, but he said what the corps proposed. If I understood this
23 correctly, during the analysis, corps present what the situation was in
24 relation to combat readiness, and they present their proposals.
25 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm, General Obradovic?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. I said what the corps
2 commanders proposed was included to a large extent in the directive.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. Do you mean to say what the corps commanders proposed during the
5 course of this analysis of combat readiness we've been discussing?
6 A. Yes. They presented proposals regarding tasks. They made these
7 proposals to the command of the Main Staff and the Supreme Command for
8 the forthcoming period.
9 Q. Thank you. I'll move on. Just a point of clarification -- just
10 a point of clarification from yesterday. You said at page 25095 that all
11 these reports from the corps, from the anti-aircraft, from the schools,
12 and so on, came to the Main Staff, to the staff sector, to the
13 administration for operations and training. And His Honour Judge Kwon
15 "I take it that that organ, or that unit, receives all the
16 reports addressed to the Main Staff."
17 And you answered, "Yes."
18 And as I said, by way of clarification, did your answer refer to
19 reports from all the military sectors or only to operations?
20 A. It referred to daily operations reports from subordinate units.
21 Q. Did the other Main Staff sectors similarly receive supports in
22 their areas of responsibility from subordinate units?
23 A. That is in the professional field. So this had to do with
24 command, whereas this meant that logistics organs received through their
25 own organs daily reports, and they followed the amounts of materiel that
1 were being used, ammunition, fuel, food, and so on, whereas the chiefs of
2 the arms and services were reported to on these professional tasks that
3 pertained to them.
4 Q. So then in addition to the operational reports we discussed
5 yesterday, do you know whether the president received reports from other
7 A. That I don't know.
8 Q. Thank you. And now we'll go back to the series of documents we
9 were dealing with when we broke yesterday - pardon me - which were
10 related to convoy movement. The first one I'd like to deal with is
11 P4189, please. It's a communication dated 31 March 1993, to UNPROFOR
12 command, signed on behalf of General Milovanovic, and listing a series of
13 14 convoys which were not approved for movement across VRS-held
15 Now, General, you recall looking at this document in preparation
16 for your testimony here today, I suspect, don't you?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So this is a document of several pages, and my questions about
19 this are rather brief. Could you first of all have a look at the bottom
20 of the first page and tell us whether you recognise the signature of who
21 signed on behalf of General Milovanovic.
22 A. That is the signature of General Miletic.
23 Q. Thank you. And now could we go over to page 2 of both documents,
24 and briefly, the successive pages, and my question is, General, if you
25 could look at this first page and -- or this second page, it is. Could
1 you tell us whether you recognise those handwritten initials that appear
2 at the top of the page beside the circled word "Ne" or "No"?
3 A. Yes, these are the initials of General Mladic.
4 Q. I wonder if my colleague could now flip to the next page in
5 succession, and I would simply like the general to look at similar
6 notations at the top of each page of this document.
7 So, General --
8 A. No.
9 Q. Whose initials are these, General?
10 A. The same of the commander of the Main Staff.
11 Q. And do you remember looking through this document and recognising
12 the same initials at the top of every page?
13 JUDGE KWON: Could we show him page 9 then. You'll come to that.
15 MS. EDGERTON:
16 Q. Same question, General, with respect to this next page. Whose
17 initials are those?
18 A. Yes, yes. I recognise them. The initials are those of the
19 commander of the Main Staff.
20 Q. And the next page.
21 A. Same here.
22 Q. On -- is every page of this -- thank you.
23 A. The same.
24 Q. Page 7, the same --
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Page 8 next, please. Whose initials are these, General?
2 A. The same. The same.
3 Q. And page 9.
4 A. The same.
5 Q. Now, the notations here, though, General, have one small change.
6 There seems to be a "yes" initially written and, I think the word
7 underneath it might read something like "limit," if I'm not mistaken,
8 although it's not translated in the English version. Do you see that
10 A. It says, "Yes," and then "through," and then in Cyrillic it says
11 "limit," or "restriction," and then that is crossed out. And then it
12 says "no," and then the commander initialed that. He probably had given
13 his approval in a limited way, but what affected his decision to make the
14 definite answer no, I don't know.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. Your Honours, I don't see --
16 JUDGE KWON: So is "Da" also handwriting of Mr. Mladic?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Thank you. This has already been
20 MS. EDGERTON: It has indeed. Could we go next to P839.
21 Q. It's a communication dated 7 April 1995 from the Main Staff to
22 the Drina Corps command with the signature block of General Milovanovic
23 informing that the Main Staff concurs with the implementation of permits
24 from the co-ordinating body for humanitarian assistance to Republika
25 Srpska but listing items from those convoys that weren't approved.
1 General, if we could scroll down a little bit in the B/C/S
2 version, do you see a remark towards the bottom of page 1 that says that
3 material for the Swedish construction project for Srebrenica will not be
4 approved until the Main Staff receives the position of the
5 State Committee for Cooperation on this?
6 A. I didn't understand your question.
7 Q. I just asked if you saw the paragraph that I had just about read
8 out to you.
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Is this the same State Committee for Cooperation headed by
11 Dr. Koljevic you referred to yesterday?
12 A. I think it pertains to the same one.
13 Q. Does this letter reflect co-ordination between the VRS civil
14 affairs administration and the political organ?
15 A. I don't understand. Where do you see co-operation? This one
16 sentence in this one paragraph that you're referring to, and it has to do
17 with the material for the Swedish construction project for Srebrenica and
18 in Drinjaca on the 9th of April, 11th of April, and 13th of April, 1995,
19 for Srebrenica, full stop. Until we receive the position of the state
20 committee regarding this matter. They probably did not receive anything
21 from the state committee, and they probably could not give their consent
22 until the committee stated its position.
23 The fax could have reached the department apart from the
25 Q. Thank you. Could we go now to 65 ter number 03640, dated
1 14 April 1995. It's a communication from the VRS Main Staff to military
2 post 7111, notifying them of the approval and refusal of a number of
3 convoys, signed by General Miletic.
4 My first question, General, is: Where was military post 7111?
5 A. I told you that I don't know. But judging by this stamp up here
6 where it says 7119, it pertains to some Zvornik Brigade. Possibly the
7 Drina Corps was military post 7111.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go over on the next page to items 12 and
9 13 of this document in B/C/S, please. Thank you.
10 Q. General, could you just have a look at those two items, 12 and
11 13, which refuse the passage of convoys to Gorazde and Zepa, relieving UN
12 military observers and translators. And my question in relation to those
13 two items is: Would you be able to explain for us what concerns the VRS
14 Main Staff might have in terms of relieving UN military observers and
15 translators in those areas?
16 A. I don't know what led the commander to make this kind of
18 Q. The last sentence of this communication tells the recipients to
19 inform check-points of the above and in case one of the convoys or
20 individual vehicles appears act as ordered.
21 Whose orders would General Miletic have been referring to?
22 A. Well, the commander's orders.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please,
24 Your Honours?
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
3 MR. ROBINSON: Given that the -- the limited amount of
4 information the witness gave about this document, I'm wondering if we
5 could just pass it for the moment and I can discuss it with Dr. Karadzic
6 whether or not we want to object to this particular document. I know
7 there are documents we also want to use with respect to convoys and it
8 may not be in our interest to object, but on the other hand, listening to
9 the answers, it didn't seem like the witness really confirmed anything
10 about the document, particularly the fact that he was not -- he was on
11 leave during this period in addition. But if you would just leave it as
12 it is right now and we can come back to it at the break.
13 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Just a second.
14 [Trial Chamber confers]
15 JUDGE KWON: I would like you to come back after the break.
16 Yes. Let's move on, Ms. Edgerton.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. 65 ter number 03700.
18 Q. It's a document dated 2 June 1995, to the command of military
19 posts 7111 and 7102, signed by General Miletic, indicating they agree
20 with the approval of the co-ordinating body for HRRS for a number of
21 convoys but refusing from those the transport of school supplies, oil for
22 saws, and something called the Swedish construction project for
24 So my question, General, about this document is what -- in order
25 for this document to issue, would this have gone through the same process
1 you described in your evidence yesterday, the process of approval
2 following review?
3 A. In principle, yes.
4 Q. Do you see, General, any military justification for the
5 Main Staff refusing - pardon me - the transport of one truck of school
6 supplies to Srebrenica?
7 A. I cannot go into the reasons, especially in view of the fact that
8 I wasn't there. And even if I had been there, I don't know what a
9 particular person or commander is guided by in a restrictive approach.
10 Q. On the -- on the face of the document, do you see any military
11 justification for refusing the transport of school supplies?
12 A. School supplies? No.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: Should we do the same with respect to this? Yes,
16 Mr. Robinson.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Please. Yes, Mr. President.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. The reason you are putting these questions,
19 i.e., the convoy matters, to this witness is to strengthen your case
20 given the next witness can deal with this more appropriately.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, General Obradovic was within the
22 Main Staff. He's spoken about the administration and able to identify
23 the department from which these documents emanate. He's talked about the
24 process through which these documents would have gone before they're
25 issued. So actually, Your Honour, I think even though he might not have
1 been able to answer with respect to the last document my question
2 relating to the content, his comments are more than sufficient to allow
3 for the document's admission.
4 JUDGE KWON: Fair enough. Could you explore with him whether he
5 can answer my question that I put to Mr. Momir Nikolic, i.e., whether
6 there were separate rules for the humanitarian convoy on the one hand,
7 and the military convoy on the other hand? I think general mentioned
8 briefly yesterday, but if you could clarify with him.
9 MS. EDGERTON:
10 Q. General, are you aware as to whether there were separate rules
11 regarding the passage of humanitarian convoys as opposed to military
12 convoys in effect -- pardon me, convoys across VRS territory?
13 A. I think there were. When it came to supply convoys for the
14 peacekeeping forces, it frequently happened that, for example, they asked
15 to be replenished with ammunition in the enclave without carrying out any
16 training or shooting exercise, and the question was where was that
17 ammunition then spent? So, for example, they also applied for large
18 quantities of fuel for their resources in the enclave, and in our view it
19 was far beyond their realistic needs. It all made us suspect that the
20 fuel in question may end up in enemy hands. That was the difference
21 between military and humanitarian supply convoys.
22 The state committee held a wider jurisdiction in terms of
23 humanitarian convoys, and the army held the authority with regard to
24 UNPROFOR convoys.
25 Q. But, General, what we see in these documents, this one in
1 particular, implies an overlap of authority between these two organs, if
2 I can call them that, because in the document before us, we see what
3 appears to be the military authorities imposing a restriction on convoys
4 approved by political organs.
5 A. I don't know precisely what guided the person who made the
6 decision, but he had the responsibility for the situation in the field,
7 and obviously the person in question had problems with such military
8 issues or supplies. The standing committee as a political body
9 established by the civilian authorities probably dealt less with such
10 military matters.
11 Q. General, did they work in conjunction with one another?
12 A. They probably did, because in the preamble they are both referred
13 to. In other words, they were in contact.
14 JUDGE KWON: Could I intervene, Ms. Edgerton.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Of course, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: Let us check whether my understanding is correct,
17 General Obradovic. Let's start with this purely military convoy or
18 UNPROFOR convoy. The state committee had nothing to do with such
19 military convoy. Such convoys would be dealt with exclusively by the
20 VRS. Am I correct?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.
22 JUDGE KWON: In case of the humanitarian convoys, UNHCR, ICRC, or
23 various organs, they were initially dealt with by the state committee.
24 However, even if the state committee gave consent to such convoys, VRS
25 had discretion on -- on the basis of military reasons not to agree with
1 some decisions of the state committee. That's why we see the formulation
2 "We agree with the approval" in such documents as this. Am I correct,
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because the army was
5 responsible for the situation in the field. Humanitarian convoys, too,
6 had some sort of escort, military escort.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
8 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An intervention in the transcript.
10 Line 5, page 23. The witness said they were probably in contact, whereas
11 we don't have the word "probably."
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, let's continue, Ms. Edgerton.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you.
14 Q. I'd like to go next to 65 ter number 03703, dated 12 June 1995,
15 from the VRS Main Staff signed by General Miletic to the Drina Corps.
16 Now, this document also relates to convoys, agreeing with
17 authorisations issued by the organ called the HRRS, and it pertains to
18 members of Medecins sans Frontieres leaving Srebrenica, but this document
19 has a remark --
20 MS. EDGERTON: Can we just -- I think the General might not be
21 able to see the B/C/S version.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see.
23 MS. EDGERTON:
24 Q. This document has a remark noting, among other things, that no
25 foreign MSF officials shall be allowed to enter the enclaves.
1 A. Could you remove the English version, please.
2 Q. Have you had a chance to look at the document now, General?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, is this consistent with the answer that you've just given
5 Judge Kwon to the effect that the military -- the department for -- the
6 VRS department for civil affairs had discretion not to agree with
7 decisions of the state committee?
8 A. There is a remark in the document which states:
9 "In the request submitted, there is information about personnel
10 shifts or rotations, which is not allowed."
11 I am not familiar with the context of it all.
12 The next sentence says:
13 "Only the specified persons have been approved to leave the
14 enclave. Igor Mindiouk from Srebrenica," and someone else from Gorazde.
15 I don't know where they belonged.
16 Q. General, this document also in the last sentence reads:
17 "In other words, no foreign Medecins sans Frontieres officials
18 will be allowed to enter the enclaves except perhaps for some drivers."
19 So I'm wondering, General, if this conditional approval is
20 consistent with the situation you've just explained to Judge Kwon.
21 A. Yes. It seems that the two people in question were allowed to
22 leave Srebrenica and Gorazde. The person who is to implement this
23 document at the check-point is reminded that no foreigners are allowed to
24 enter the enclave save for the drivers who may appear at the check-point
25 with the aim of transporting these two people out.
1 Q. General, do you have any idea what interest the VRS Main Staff
2 would have had in preventing Medecins sans Frontieres from entering the
4 A. I don't know what the abbreviation MSF stands for.
5 Q. I thought I had just said Medecins sans Frontieres. Doctors
6 Without Borders.
7 A. I don't know what the person making the decision was guided by.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, could this be marked as a
9 Prosecution exhibit.
10 JUDGE KWON: We'll deal with it at one go after the break.
11 MS. EDGERTON: That's fine. I'll move on.
12 65 ter number 03546, please. It's a document from the VRS
13 Main Staff, dated 3 July 1995, to the Drina Corps command, approving a
14 DutchBat convoy of 20 men leaving Srebrenica but not approving the
15 convoy's return.
16 I'm sorry, but is there any way you can just shift the B/C/S
17 version a little bit over to the right so the General can see all of the
18 text? He misses just a little bit. Or to the left then.
19 Q. General, what effect does this refusal for return of the convoy
20 have on UNPROFOR's manpower levels in Srebrenica at this time?
21 A. I don't know why this decision was made that no return be
22 allowed. It seems logical that if some people left and others did not go
23 in they will be short of personnel.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 MS. EDGERTON: And for the last convoy-related document, can we
1 see 65 ter number 03548. I think it might have a suffix A, small A.
2 It's a document from the VRS Main Staff dated 5 July 1995, to military
3 posts 7598 and 7111, signed by General Miletic.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
5 MS. EDGERTON: There's no suffix A on it apparently. It's 03548.
6 Q. General, paragraph 4 of this document refers to the approved
7 medical evacuation from Srebrenica of a Dutch soldier, specifically
8 instructing that this convoy should be exhaustively checked at the
9 Yellow Bridge to prevent photo and video material being taken out, and
10 that if you find any such material, it is to be confiscated and the
11 Main Staff is to be informed.
12 Is this a convoy request, General, that would have fallen
13 strictly within the area of responsibility of the --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Can you see paragraph 4? Probably
15 page 2 in English.
16 MS. EDGERTON: And now on the English version we have to go over
17 to the next page for paragraph 4. Thank you.
18 Q. Now, is this a document that would have fallen strictly within
19 the area of responsibility of the VRS civil affairs office in terms of
20 its processing?
21 A. If you have in mind the restriction pertaining to video and
22 photographic material, it was rather a security matter. It was more that
23 than the area of responsibility of the department that you referred to.
24 Q. So then in terms of the processing of this request, who would
25 have been involved in the review?
1 A. I cannot say anything specific. I was not present when the
2 document was created. However, if for some reasons, counter-intelligence
3 reasons, such information may have arrived from the security
4 administration or from intelligence administration in order to protect
5 military information and the positions of the VRS that may have been
6 located along the route of the convoy.
7 Q. General, what interest would the Main Staff have in preventing
8 photo and video material being taken out of Srebrenica?
9 A. I don't know what made the security or intelligence organ decide
11 Q. Thank you. I'd like to move on to another topic now and talk
12 about some of the daily operations reports to the president that we were
13 discussing yesterday and look at some examples of the type of information
14 contained in those reports.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have 65 ter number 04116.
16 Q. And while we wait, perhaps I could ask you, General, among other
17 things, did the operations reports that were sent to Dr. Karadzic include
18 such things as information on the military's engagement in active combat
19 or the implementation of operational plans?
20 A. Yes. I have discussed the contents of daily operations reports
21 yesterday. They contained information about the enemy, possible
22 intentions and situation. It also contained information about our own
23 forces in terms of grouping intentions and tasks, as well as losses in
24 materiel and personnel. It also had information about adjacent units and
25 any new corps commanders' decisions if there were any that were needed to
1 continue with the activities.
2 Q. Thank you.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Can we just go over to the very last page of this
4 document which was issued by General Miletic on behalf of the
5 Chief of Staff.
6 Q. Now, above the signature block do you see the initials "nt/pm"?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you know who those refer to?
9 A. These maybe the initials of the Nedeljko Trkulja. And then after
10 the slash it may have been Paulina Mitrovic, a stenographer or typist.
11 Q. Who was Nedeljko Trkulja?
12 A. Colonel Nedeljko Trkulja was in the Main Staff, in the staff
13 sector of the Main Staff. He was head of -- or chief of armoured
14 mechanised units organ.
15 MS. EDGERTON: Can we go over to paragraph 6 on B/C/S page 3.
16 And I'll just wait until paragraph 6 in English comes up.
17 Q. General, paragraph 6(b) reads that the main body of the force is
18 engaged in persistent defence -- pardon me. Paragraph 6(b) which refers
19 to events in the zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps reads that:
20 "The main body of the force is engaged in persistent defence
21 while a part of the forces is engaged in active combat operations,
22 especially around the Srebrenica enclave where they are carrying out
23 combat tasks as planned."
24 Is this an example of reports to Dr. Karadzic which talk about
25 the implementation of operational plans?
1 A. You can see that from the document.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please,
3 Your Honours?
4 MR. ROBINSON: No objection, Mr. President.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted.
6 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P4449, Your Honours.
7 MS. EDGERTON: Can we now go to 65 ter number 03969, which is a
8 VRS Main Staff operations report to the president on 11 July 1995.
9 Q. General, as you've indicated, these operations reports could also
10 include information on significant territorial gains or military
11 developments. Isn't that correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Could we go over, please, to paragraph 6(b) again
14 on B/C/S page 3, relating to the situation in the Drina Corps zone of
16 Q. And there in paragraph 6(b), it reads that:
17 "In the course of the day, our forces entered the town of
19 Is this an --
20 JUDGE KWON: Page 4 in English.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 MS. EDGERTON:
24 Q. Is this an example of one of those reports that includes
25 information on significant territorial gains or military developments?
1 A. I'm not sure where the sentence you quoted is precisely.
2 Q. Paragraph 6(b).
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could read out
4 the entire paragraph, as well as the date when it was received.
5 JUDGE KWON: Did you find the paragraph, General?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 6(b)?
7 "The situation in the corps. The corps units are at full combat
8 readiness. The main body of the forces is engaged in persistent defence
9 while parts of the forces are engaged in offensive operations around the
10 enclave of Srebrenica. During the day our forces entered the town of
11 Srebrenica. Regarding the results achieved and other details" --
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
13 MS. EDGERTON: I'm finished with that document. Could that be a
14 Prosecution exhibit, please?
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We don't have any objection
18 to this.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. That will be admitted as Exhibit P4450.
20 Shall we take a break if it is convenient with you, Ms. Edgerton?
21 MS. EDGERTON: Of course.
22 JUDGE KWON: We will break for half an hour and resume at 3.30.
23 --- Recess taken at 2.58 p.m.
24 --- On resuming at 5.03 p.m.
25 JUDGE KWON: Good afternoon again. The proceedings have been
1 delayed due to technical difficulties, and for the same reason, we will
2 sit here at Courtroom III tomorrow as well.
3 Yes, Mr. Robinson.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We do not have any objection
5 to the admission of the exhibits that we discussed before the recess.
6 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for your reminder. I think we have -- we
7 dealt with five documents, Ms. Edgerton, 65 ter number 3640, 3700, 3703,
8 3546, 3548. They will be admitted.
9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P4451 through P4455 respectively,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Ms. Edgerton, how long do you have,
12 just for planning purposes?
13 MS. EDGERTON: I'll try and keep it to around 45 minutes,
14 Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. General, you confirmed in your Tolimir testimony that information
18 from the VRS corps level operations report was put into or inserted into
19 the VRS Main Staff reports to the president; is that correct? Do you
20 remember that?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a reference?
22 MS. EDGERTON: That's page 11982 in the transcript of the Tolimir
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Pardon me. I'd like to then look at a corps-level
1 report, 65 ter number 02004, from the Drina Corps command to the VRS
2 Main Staff, dated 14 July 1995.
3 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the number.
4 MS. EDGERTON: 02004.
5 Q. Now, just a couple of questions about this document, General. If
6 you look at the reference number on the top left-hand side above the
7 date, you'll see that it begins with 03. Does that number indicate
8 anything in particular?
9 A. 03 indicates the staff.
10 Q. Does it indicate any sector of the staff in particular?
11 A. 03/4 refers to the administration for operations and training.
12 Q. Now --
13 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President. Just going back for a
14 moment to this page 11982 that we were given the reference for, it was --
15 if you look at the transcript, actually, he was speaking of a --
16 JUDGE KWON: 11982.
17 MR. ROBINSON: Right.
18 JUDGE KWON: Could you give me a minute. Yes, Mr. Robinson.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. He was actually asked a question about a
20 specific document with respect to Zepa, and his answer was, "Yes. That
21 was taken over from a Drina Corps report." And I believe in other parts
22 of his testimony he indicated that the reports that went to the president
23 were reduced from the -- by the information that was reported by the
24 Drina Corps to the Main Staff, and so I don't think that the question --
25 that the reference given by Ms. Edgerton actually fairly reflects her
1 question, so I -- it's often Dr. Karadzic who is the one who is being
2 questioned about his references, and I think that it's only fair that
3 when a reference by the Prosecutor is not quite right that we point that
5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We can move on.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you. And is this -- if we could turn over
7 to the very last page of this document and then I'll have another
8 question. Thank you.
9 Q. Now, having seen both pages of this report, is this operations
10 report from the Drina Corps something that would have been received
11 within your sector at the Main Staff?
12 A. Your Honours, a minute ago I was asked about this number on the
13 first page. I thought it was a report from the Main Staff to the
14 commander, and I said it was 03/4, but it's a Drina Corps report, so I
15 couldn't really say which organ is concerned, but obviously the reports
16 are from the Drina Corps. Here it says: "For the commander." I don't
17 know who signed it, but given the contents of the report, the contents as
18 such would be forwarded in accordance with the regular procedure.
19 Q. So was this something that would have been received within your
20 sector in the Main Staff?
21 A. Could you please go back to the first page so that I can see how
22 it has been laid out. Yes.
23 Q. I heard you --
24 A. That's the structure.
25 Q. Thank you. Now, here in this document do you see the second sort
1 of subparagraph under section 2, under the heading "Combat readiness,"
2 which reads:
3 "The terrain is being combed in the 1st Milici Light Infantry
4 Brigade, the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, and the Skelani
5 Independent Battalion zone of responsibility, and a large number of
6 Muslims fleeing from the Srebrenica enclave have been surrendering."
7 Are you able to identify that paragraph?
8 A. Yes. This concerns the Independent Skelani Infantry Battalion.
9 It says that the terrain is being combed, and a large number of Muslims
10 fleeing from the Srebrenica enclave have been surrendering.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Now could we go to 65 ter number 01918. It's a
13 VRS Main Staff report to the president on the same date, 14 July 1995.
14 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, did you mean to tender that document?
15 MS. EDGERTON: Not at this moment. I'd like to deal with the
16 next document and then move both of them in, please.
17 Q. Now, do you see this Main Staff report to the president and the
18 corps of the army on the screen in front of you?
19 A. Yes. Yes.
20 Q. Now, this number that appears just above the date on the top
21 left-hand corner of the page, 03/3-195, what does that denote?
22 A. The administration for operations and training.
23 Q. And that's -- is that the sector that you served in?
24 A. Yes. That's the administration that is within the staff sector.
25 Q. And is this then the administration that issued this document?
1 A. Well, since it's been registered, recorded, I assume that that is
2 the case.
3 Q. Thank you.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Could we now please go over to paragraph 6(b),
5 which relates to the situation in the area of responsibility of the
6 Drina Corps. That's B/C/S page 3 and English page 3 as well, I think.
7 Q. Now, under heading 6(b), General, do you see where it reads:
8 "The main body of the corps is engaged in defence whereas the
9 Milici and Bratunac brigades as well as the Skelani Independent Battalion
10 are scouring the terrain and receiving a large number of Muslim fugitives
11 who are surrendering to them"?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Now, is this information very similar to the information we just
14 saw laid out in the Drina Corps command report?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And do you know how that would come about? Why is the
17 information so very similar?
18 A. Well, the purpose of reporting is to provide accurate information
19 on the events in the field. The information provided should not diverge
20 in any way.
21 Q. Diverge in any way from what?
22 A. Well, diverge from the information contained in the Drina Corps
24 Q. Was -- are you describing a practice, then, in the method of
25 compiling or preparing the reports to the president?
1 A. Well, it doesn't have to be identical. It's not necessary to
2 copy the contents of a given report, but the essence of the events has to
3 be accurately conveyed.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Could we, just before we leave this document, go
5 to the very last page, please.
6 Q. Do you see just above the signature block, which reads
7 "General Miletic standing in for the Chief of Staff," the initials
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Whose initials are those, do you know?
11 A. I assume those are the initials of Nedeljko Trkulja from the
12 staff sector, but I don't know who the typist is.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 MS. EDGERTON: I'd like to move both of those documents now in as
15 Prosecution exhibits, if I may, Your Honour.
16 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Both will be admitted.
17 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibits P4456 and P4457 respectively,
18 Your Honours.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Could we now see another Drina Corps report to the
20 VRS Main Staff, 65 ter number 02018, dated 18 July 1995.
21 Q. Do you see the report I've just mentioned on the screen in front
22 of you, General?
23 A. Yes, yes.
24 Q. And does this report come from the same sector as the previous
25 Drina Corps report we've just looked at?
1 A. When I look at the number, I would say yes.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Can we go over to the last page of the document in
3 both languages, please.
4 Q. And do you see whose signature block appears on this document?
5 A. I can see the name that's been printed, but I don't know whose
6 signature it is.
7 Q. Whose's name's been printed?
8 A. Commander Major-General Radislav Krstic.
9 Q. And who was he?
10 A. The corps commander.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Now, could we just move over -- back over to
13 heading 1 of this document in both languages.
14 Q. Now, at the beginning, I think it's the first, second, third,
15 fourth line down from the top of heading 1, you see the report that
17 "Parts of broken forces from Srebrenica organised into smaller
18 formations continued their attempts to break through the brigade's zone
19 towards Tuzla. In the general Planinica and Potocani sector, small
20 groups were discovered and mostly destroyed, but a small number got
21 through our position during the night of 17/18 July 1995."
22 A. Yes, I see that part.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 MS. EDGERTON: Could we now go to the VRS Main Staff report to
25 the president, also dated 18 July, 65 ter number 4009.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down for the sake of the
2 interpreters. Thank you.
3 MS. EDGERTON:
4 Q. Now, once again, this document, the line above the date bears the
5 number 03/3-199. Does that number denote anything?
6 A. I've already said that this is a number used for the operations
7 and training administration.
8 Q. Your administration, in other words.
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. EDGERTON: Could we please go over to section 6 of this
11 document in both languages, and it's on the fourth page in B/C/S and I
12 think the sixth page in English. Oh, I've got my numbers wrong in B/C/S.
13 Your indulgence for a moment.
14 JUDGE KWON: You mean 6(b).
15 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: Next page for the English.
17 MS. EDGERTON:
18 Q. Now, about halfway through this paragraph 6(a), and I'll just try
19 and identify the line for you, your indulgence for a moment.
20 JUDGE KWON: Do you mean the last sentence:
21 "Blocking and destroying the broken up Muslim formations"?
22 MS. EDGERTON: I actually see it halfway through the top
23 paragraph on the English page and I think it's the one, two, three, four,
24 five, sixth sentence from the top of paragraph 6(a).
25 Q. After mention of the name Sopotnica-Kopaci, do you see reference
2 "The broken-up enemy forces from the Srebrenica enclave have been
3 trying to break through towards Tuzla in smaller groups"?
4 Do you see that line, General?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Here again this language is very similar from the report
7 generated by the Drina Corps. Isn't that correct?
8 A. It's similar, but there are other elements that concern a unit
9 that appeared and that was withdrawing in the direction of Udrc.
10 Q. How would your sector ensure consistency in the information? Was
11 there a methodology applied in preparing the reports that went to the
13 A. Well, there was no methodology. The methodology was quite clear.
14 On the basis of subordinate reports, one would draft reports that would
15 be forwarded to one's superiors.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have these two, 65 ter number 02018 and
18 04009, as Prosecution exhibits, please.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits P4458 and P4459 respectively,
21 Your Honours.
22 MS. EDGERTON: Can we go now to a VRS Main Staff report to the
23 president dated 15 July 1995, 65 ter number 01919.
24 Q. Do you see that report on the screen in front of you, General?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Is this report, like the previous reports, generated by your
3 A. It's from the staff sector. It's not mine, but, yes, the number
4 is the number used for the operations and training administration.
5 MS. EDGERTON: Could we please go over to the very last page,
6 signature-block page of this document.
7 Q. Now, here we have initials "nt/mm" just above the signature
8 block. Do you know -- pardon me. Does "nt," to your knowledge, refer to
9 the same "nt" in the previous documents, Nedeljko Trkulja?
10 A. Well, I assume it refers to the same person.
11 MS. EDGERTON: If we could go over to paragraph 6(b), which is on
12 English pages 3 and 4, and I think the bottom of B/C/S page 3, please.
13 Thank you.
14 Q. Under the heading "Situation in the corps," which is at the
15 bottom of the page you see in front of you, it reports:
16 "The 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade with its reinforcements
17 is carrying out preparations to cut off and encircle enemy soldiers
18 en route from Planinica to Kljevci. The 1st Milici Light Infantry
19 Brigade, the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, and the Skelani
20 Independent Battalion have used some of their troops to scour the terrain
21 in order to discover the enemy groups which are lagging behind."
22 Would this information have been drawn from, based on your
23 experience, reports originating from the Drina Corps command?
24 A. Yes. Yes.
25 MS. EDGERTON: Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please?
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4460, Your Honours.
3 MS. EDGERTON: One more VRS Main Staff report to the president,
4 please, dated 19 July 1995. It's 65 ter number 13606.
5 Q. Once again, General, we see a document with the same prefix to
6 the reference number 03, and does this then indicate that it was issued
7 by the same department as the previous Main Staff operations reports
8 we've been viewing?
9 A. Yes.
10 MS. EDGERTON: And once again, can we just go over to the
11 signature block on the last page.
12 Q. There's different initials here that appear above the signature
13 block which is General Miletic's signature block. Do you -- can you tell
14 us who those initials might represent?
15 A. It seems to be "sb."
16 Q. And who was named "sb" within the Main Staff?
17 A. In terms of initials and in terms of the first and last name, it
18 could be Bogdan Sladojevic. Now, whether it is him or not, I cannot say.
19 I don't know if there's anybody else with these initials "sb."
20 Q. Thank you.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Can we go over to paragraph 6(a) under the heading
22 "Zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps," and 6(a) is the sub-heading
23 "Enemy." In English you have to go just one page further to get the
25 Q. Now, in paragraph 6(a) under the heading "Enemy," we see the
1 report that:
2 "In the zone of the responsibility of the 1st Zvornik
3 Light Infantry Brigade, enemy formations from the Srebrenica enclave were
4 smashed and surrounded in Planinci and Baljkovici villages, and in
5 sectors Bijela Zemlja and Gornja Kamenica, enemy groups are attempting to
6 break through to Muslim-controlled territory. On the front facing
7 Gorazde, the enemy attacked the Sjenokos and the Jabucko Sedlo features
8 with infantry weapons."
9 Now, as was the case with the previous reports to the president,
10 is this information that would have been drawn from the operations
11 reports received in the Main Staff from the Drina Corps?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. EDGERTON: Could that be a Prosecution exhibit, please.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P4461, Your Honours.
16 MS. EDGERTON:
17 Q. Now, General, this document was dated 18 July, and I'm just
18 wondering if that's before or after the date that you returned to --
19 JUDGE KWON: I'm sorry, was it not 19th of July?
20 MS. EDGERTON: It was indeed. Pardon me.
21 Q. Was that before or after you returned to active service in the
22 Main Staff?
23 A. After.
24 Q. And when did you return?
25 A. The 17th.
1 Q. And where did you come from to return to Main Staff headquarters?
2 A. Sick leave.
3 Q. And where did you spend your sick leave?
4 A. In Derventa.
5 Q. And how did you travel from Derventa to Main Staff headquarters?
6 A. By car. Somebody else drove me. It wasn't my car.
7 Q. And what route did you take?
8 A. Bijeljina, Zvornik, Drinjaca, Milici, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak.
9 Q. Did you en route receive any information related to the security
10 situation during your travels?
11 A. I think that we were warned in Zvornik that there were some armed
12 groups that were crossing that road and that we should be careful because
13 there were cases of action taken against cars. People were killed,
15 Q. Did you receive any information as to where those armed groups
16 had come from?
17 A. From the Srebrenica enclave.
18 Q. Now, when you got back to Main Staff headquarters, did you resume
19 your previous duties?
20 A. As usual, yes.
21 Q. And as part of those duties, did you continue to receive and
22 review operations reports from the corps on the situation in the field?
23 A. No, because we compiled a list because the operations centre had
24 never really started operating. Then we compiled a list. People who
25 were free, who were not involved somewhere in the field, they would write
1 the report for that day. They would take the report and write it up.
2 Q. When you say "write it up," are you referring -- what -- what
3 would you be writing up? What are you referring to?
4 A. Well, the daily operations report to the supreme commander and
5 subordinate units and also forward command posts that were active at the
7 Q. In order to write up that report, did you receive or review
8 reports, corps-level operations reports?
9 A. Are you referring to me personally?
10 Q. Given the answer to your previous question, yes.
11 A. Not I personally. It was the person who compiled the report, the
12 person who was assigned to write that report on that day.
13 Q. Did you receive or did you become aware of the situation in the
14 theatre as a consequence of your duties following your return?
15 A. Well, of course I knew on the whole what was going on, that an
16 attack had been carried out against the enclave, that the forces from the
17 enclave had been crushed. I heard about that as I was travelling since
18 they had told me to be careful when covering that part of the route.
19 MS. EDGERTON: Could we have a look, please, at 65 ter number
20 136 -- pardon me. 65 ter number 02058. It's a document dated
21 25 July 1995, from the 1st Podrinje Brigade, signed by General Tolimir,
22 entitled "Agreement on the disarmament of Zepa."
23 Q. General, have you seen this document before?
24 A. Yes, during the previous trials. Now, was it 2008 or Tolimir,
25 but anyway, I don't know. I did see them, though.
1 MS. EDGERTON: Now, paragraph 4 of this document in B/C/S, which
2 I think is actually at the bottom of this page. My mistake. It's on the
3 next page.
4 JUDGE KWON: Should refer to the English portion.
5 MS. EDGERTON: It's my problem with numbers. I have a degree in
6 English, not mathematics, Your Honour. If we could please scroll up in
7 both documents.
8 JUDGE KWON: Page 1 in English?
9 MS. EDGERTON: Yes, absolutely. It's the one -- first, second,
10 third paragraph from the top, which reads:
11 "Our commission should demand all our war prisoners, including
12 ones from Gorazde and Bihac. Our war prisoners have to be released
13 between 25 and 28 July 1995."
14 Q. Now, General, as you were familiar with the situation at the
15 time, I wonder if you could explain to us effectively what's the rush?
16 Why do all Serb prisoners have to be released over this three-day period
17 that starts with the very same date of this letter, 25 July 1995?
18 A. I don't know.
19 Q. If we go down the page to the paragraph immediately following,
20 where it says:
21 "Advise State Commission for War Prisoners and SRK commission not
22 to agree to longer procedure considering that Muslims could take
23 advantage of the signed agreement under pressure from Sarajevo, which
24 they have already tried to do by bringing up the issue of prisoners from
1 Do you see that paragraph?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What was the issue of prisoners from Srebrenica?
4 A. I don't know what this was all about. I was not involved in work
5 related to exchanges or negotiations, so I really cannot have a position
6 on that.
7 Q. General, your indulgence for a moment, please. You've just
8 talked about your familiarity with the situation following your return to
9 duty. We've looked at reports sent to the president on large numbers of
10 people surrendering to Serb forces. Do you -- are you saying that you
11 don't know the number of prisoners that were taken as a consequence of
12 the fall of Srebrenica?
13 A. I did not have that information. But Tolimir says here -- I
14 mean, he had some knowledge that I do not. Since we have some
15 information -- after all, he is the head of the sector for intelligence
16 and security. I do not have the kind of information that he has. So the
17 question is where is he sending this telegram from, to General Gvero or
18 General Miletic personally? This is a document that is sent directly to
19 either one of the two. He doesn't say one and the other but one or the
21 I'm not part of the negotiations concerning POWs or anything
22 else, so I cannot say. We are not in the same place. Possibly I would
23 have known had I been involved in the process, but I was not involved in
24 that process.
25 Q. During the course of your duties, did you not have occasion to
1 see information on the situation in the theatre in Zepa?
2 A. The report of the corps command.
3 Q. Did the report of the corps command on the situation in Zepa talk
4 about the military situation?
5 A. Yes, but there was no reference to exchanges, and this
6 information that General Tolimir provided by telegram personally to
7 General Gvero or General Miletic.
8 Q. General, what do you know about the prisoners who were taken by
9 VRS forces following the fall of the enclave of Srebrenica?
10 A. At that point in time I did not know. As for subsequent
11 knowledge, that is different from knowledge from the time when all of
12 this was happening. Even subsequent knowledge is not rich.
13 Q. Did -- at the time, General, do you not recall seeing television
14 reports on the number of prisoners held by VRS forces following the fall
15 of the enclave?
16 A. I watch TV news. Now, whether figures were being mentioned, I
17 don't remember, but it was said that there were Srebrenica soldiers who
18 had been taken prisoner.
19 Q. So what was the issue with respect to those prisoners?
20 A. Again you're asking me to speculate. I don't know.
21 MS. EDGERTON: Let's go on to 65 ter number -- oh, pardon me,
22 before leaving this document, your indulgence for a moment.
23 JUDGE KWON: And before leaving this document, General Obradovic,
24 could you kindly read the paragraph that starts with "Advise State
25 Commission for War Prisoners and SRK commission." Could you read it
1 slow. Could you read it aloud.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Advise State Commission for
3 Prisoners of War and the commission of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps that
4 they should not agree to a longer process considering that the Muslims
5 could take advantage of the signed agreement under pressure from
6 Sarajevo, which they had already tried to do by bringing up the issue of
7 prisoners from Srebrenica."
8 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
9 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one correction. After this:
11 "... you are asking me to speculate," the witness also said, "I don't
12 know," and that was not reflected in the transcript.
13 MS. EDGERTON:
14 Q. General, are you familiar with the State Commission for
15 War Prisoners?
16 A. No.
17 Q. What was the SRK commission?
18 A. Well, I don't know. It was probably organised in corps. I don't
19 know who it was.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance? Maybe this
21 is an abbreviation for prisoners of war, because there was no commission
22 of that kind.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, maybe it is the Commission for
24 Exchanges, and I interpreted it differently.
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. Are you implying, then, that these organs are civilian organs or
2 military organs?
3 A. I cannot say. I don't know.
4 Q. But I thought you just agreed with Dr. Karadzic when you said
5 maybe it's the Commission for Exchanges. I'm sorry, I don't understand.
6 What do you mean by that?
7 A. Well, every corps had a Commission for Exchanges, and at their
8 own level they had contacts with the other side, and they were involved
9 in exchanges. And I know that General Tolimir was also involved in
10 exchanges since he had my brother exchanged from Gorazde in 1994.
11 Q. So if I consider your answer, can we take it that this document
12 is a direction from General Tolimir affecting the corps Commission for
14 A. He is sending this personally to General Gvero, the chief of
15 sector for moral guidance and religious and legal affairs, or to
16 General Miletic. The document is not being sent to corps.
17 MS. EDGERTON: I'll just go on to one final document,
18 65 ter number 02053. It's a document dated 29 July 1995, from the VRS
19 Main Staff sector for intelligence and security, signed by
20 General Tolimir, to the Drina Corps, the intelligence and security organ,
21 Rajko Kusic, and Captain Pecanac. And it's entitled "Disarmament of the
22 Zepa Brigade."
23 Q. And I wonder if you can have a look at the end of the first
24 sentence of the first paragraph for us, General, which refers to an
25 exchange of prisoners carried out in the whole territory according to the
1 principle all for all. Do you see that?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. What does that mean, "all for all"?
4 A. "All for all" means that there are no conditions being set by
5 this or that. So it's all those who are prisoners on one side that
6 should be exchanged for all those who are prisoners on the other side.
7 Q. How is that different from a one-for-one exchange of detainees of
8 the kind that's discussed in the next paragraph of this document, where
9 we see a report on a change in position as regards prisoner exchange and
10 an indication that Serb forces were looking for a one-for-one exchange of
11 detainees from different parts of Bosnian-held territory with people in
12 Batkovic camp?
13 So what's a one-for-one exchange?
14 A. "One for one" means if I've been taken prisoner, I'm being
15 exchanged for another man on the other side who holds the same rank that
16 I do.
17 Q. What was Batkovic camp?
18 A. Well, a camp is a camp. Probably for putting up prisoners. It's
19 the Eastern Bosnia Corps, the area of Bijeljina.
20 Q. Under whose control?
21 A. Well, there was physical security there provided probably by the
22 Eastern Bosnian Corps, because it's in their zone, in their area, their
24 Q. This document goes on and directs VRS forces to:
25 "Continue combat operations in order to surround and destroy the
1 1st Zepa Brigade until the Muslims make the exchange and carry out the
2 agreement from the 24 July related to their disarmament and surrender.
3 Take all necessary measures to prevent them from leaving the
4 encirclement. Do not register persons you capture before cessation of
5 fire and do not report them to international organisations."
6 Do you see that paragraph, General?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
9 MR. ROBINSON: -- I think it would be only fair to read that last
10 sentence also.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Oh, no problem.
12 "We are going to keep them for exchange in case the Muslims do
13 not carry out the agreement or they manage to break through from the
15 Q. So, General, is this direction not to register prisoners in
16 accordance with the rules of military conduct as you understood them?
17 A. It's not, but he goes on here and he doesn't say do not register
18 them at all. He says register them, but do not display this to
19 international organs. But he says that they should be kept for exchanges
20 because he's afraid that the other side would deceive him. And in order
21 to prevent that from happening, he will have them for an exchange in case
22 there is deceit. So they are going to keep them, but it was impossible
23 for him not to have registered them at all. It is one thing not to
24 provide the papers to the international organisation if the other side
25 was willing to deceive him, but if there is this kind of deceit, we are
1 still going to have them for an exchange.
2 Q. How could you possibly know that?
3 A. I didn't. I have just read it.
4 MS. EDGERTON: Thank you, Your Honours.
5 JUDGE KWON: In his answer, line 24, 25, on the previous page:
6 "He doesn't say do not register them at all. He says register
7 them, but do not display this to the international organs."
8 Is this what this document is saying, General Obradovic?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do not register, and do not display
10 that material to international organisations. Keep them for an exchange
11 in case the Muslims do not abide by the agreement or break out of the
13 JUDGE KWON: So General Tolimir said here not to register the
14 persons captured.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Did you tender the previous document --
17 MS. EDGERTON: No, Your Honour. I'd like to deal with them
18 together now, please.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I cut you off, Mr. Obradovic. What did you
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. It is illogical to hold
22 someone without registering them. They simply wanted to have them as a
23 reserve, so to speak, in case of they were double-crossed.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need to intervene. Does the
25 document say "keep them" or "hold them," because it seems that it was
1 translated to hold them. What does it say in the original?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To keep them for exchange.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To preserve them, not keep them.
4 JUDGE KWON: Well, that's a separate matter that may be explored.
5 Well, we'll admit both documents.
6 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 MR. ROBINSON: I wanted to actually object to the admission of
9 both of those documents, because the witness really didn't confirm
10 anything about the documents. He discussed them, which the Prosecutor
11 asked a lot of questions about the two documents, but he himself didn't
12 confirm anything about the two documents. So what you -- are you going
13 to put to the documents?
14 For example, the first document, the implication is that the VRS
15 wanted to hurry up with the exchange because they knew that the -- there
16 were no prisoners left in Srebrenica. The people had all been killed.
17 That's a very serious implication for a document that this witness knew
18 nothing about and couldn't confirm. And then even this -- this document
19 where there's the implication that the VRS might not register people
20 because they might also meet the same fate in Zepa as those in
22 So if you're going to -- if the Prosecution is going to make
23 those kind of arguments based on these documents, without this witness
24 having confirmed anything, that would really make a fair trial difficult
25 for Dr. Karadzic because he has nobody to ask about whether that was the
1 intent of these documents and nobody to cross-examine on these documents.
2 So I don't think that other than admitting them for the very limited
3 purpose of understanding the context of the witness's answers, I don't
4 think that they should be admitted for all purposes.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
6 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, first of all, I take it there's no
7 issue with respect the authenticity of these documents, and if there's no
8 issue with respect the authenticity of these documents, I think the
9 witness has more than passed the test of contextualising the contents of
10 these documents.
11 And -- sorry. With respect the second document, Your Honour, the
12 witness has done more than effectively and actually contextualising the
13 documents. He was able to make comments with respect to the orders
14 contained in these documents that I would suggest, Your Honour, go
15 directly -- directly related to the argument I made with respect these
16 two documents in front of you a couple of days ago. They go directly to
17 the case of the fate of the prisoners in Srebrenica and to the cover-up
18 with respect to those prisoners.
19 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, if I can just respond briefly, and
20 I agree that these documents are relevant, but in a trial like this with
21 documents of the kind of importance that the Prosecutor is putting on
22 them, they ought not to be admitted simply by discussing them with a
23 witness who knows nothing about the documents and nothing about the
24 events portrayed in them unless you only admit them for the limited
25 purpose of giving some context to the discussion between the Prosecution
1 and the witness. But to admit them and later let the Prosecutor argue
2 from these documents the inferences that they want to and make -- have
3 you make from them I think would be unfair to Dr. Karadzic.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, there's no issue here as to the
6 authenticity and relevance of the documents.
7 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. And although the witness did not confirm the
9 content of the document itself, the witness was able to contextualise the
10 content of the document, and in addition, he gave some detailed
11 explanation as to the document. For example, the meaning of "all-for-all
12 exchange." So on that basis, we have sufficient basis to admit them all.
13 We'll give them numbers.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibits P4462 and 4463 respectively,
15 Your Honours.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes.
17 MS. EDGERTON: That's the examination-in-chief, Your Honours.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Karadzic, we have about 20 minutes
19 for today. Would you like to begin?
20 THE ACCUSED: As you wish, Excellency.
21 JUDGE KWON: If you can, I would prefer to continue, albeit for
22 20 minutes. Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General.
1 A. Good afternoon, Doctor.
2 Q. Since the last topic is something we remember the best, let's
3 start from the end.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the last document
5 back in e-court, please. P4463.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. General, were you able to observe that in this war there were
8 frequent deceits in the exchange of prisoners, and it was a sensitive
9 issue? In other words, did it cause much grief to the families
11 A. Yes, that and violations of truce and cease-fire.
12 Q. In late 1994, you were in the area of Bihac, Grmec, et cetera.
13 Were some of our soldiers captured then, which was almost a year before
14 the 19th of July?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Thank you. Do you recall that even before the 19th of July,
17 1995, do you recall that there was a crisis in Gorazde in April 1994?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. We both need to pause between questions and answers because we
20 speak the same language.
21 So did the Serb side enumerate or list its POWs who had been held
22 for long periods, over a year, from Gorazde and slightly under one year
23 from Bihac?
24 A. I know about Gorazde because my brother had spent there almost
25 two years, ten days short of two years.
1 Q. Thank you. As for Bihac, you were in Jasenica at the forward
2 command post?
3 A. Yes. And while I was there, the exchange did not take place.
4 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this: Am I correct in saying that an
5 exchange one for one can easily be manipulated and that money became
6 involved as well as causing much argument about why this person was
7 exchanged and not another? In such exchanges, people were exchanged
8 based on their names as opposed to exchanges all for all.
9 A. There are no manipulations, and it's simpler to have an
10 all-for-all exchange. When there is a one-for-one exchange, then people
11 are ranked according to certain lists. That's why they kept my brother
12 for two years, so as to extract the most benefit from his capture because
13 I was a member of the VRS.
14 Q. In other words, you presented an aggravating circumstance to his
15 imprisonment; correct?
16 A. Unfortunately, it is.
17 Q. Thank you. Let me ask you this, General: If someone offered an
18 all-for-all exchange, would they come up with such a proposal if they
19 knew they were short of prisoners? Would it become obvious right away?
20 A. Your conclusion is logical.
21 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that throughout the war we always
22 proposed all-for-all exchanges, that everyone be exchanged at any given
23 point in time, including this instance in July 1995?
24 A. At the time my brother was captured -- or, rather, exchanged,
25 that was an all-for-all exchange. As for July 1995, I suppose what is
1 presented is accurate.
2 Q. Thank you. Do you agree that the Serb prisoners from Lisaca,
3 Majevica, and so on and so forth, were from the early spring offensive?
4 In other words, they had been imprisoned for longer than the people in
5 Srebrenica and Zepa?
6 A. Yes, by a few months.
7 Q. Thank you. If translated correctly and if we say that they would
8 be preserved and not held or kept, does it mean that they were supposed
9 to be kept as a reserve in order to counter any deceit on the enemy side?
10 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The word "preserve" is the
11 term used by the accused.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here, "We'll keep them for
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again we have the word in the
15 response, actually. We again have that "we will keep them." I am asking
16 the interpreters to distinguish between "keep" and "hold."
17 Q. Can you explain what "drzati" means as opposed to "cuvati"?
18 A. "Cuvati" means to secure something in a particular place, to
19 perhaps be used later, such as savings, or to set something aside so that
20 it could be used in trade subsequently. But "cuvati" means also "to
22 Q. Something of value; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. At the time, which is two weeks after your arrival,
25 at the time of this report, did you have any knowledge of any prisoners
2 A. No.
3 Q. Can you accept my position [as interpreted] that these reports
4 suggest that something should be postponed because some people had been
6 We'll have an intervention for the transcript. I didn't say "my
7 position." The position of the Prosecution. Their position that these
8 documents contain implicit -- an implicit meaning that some prisoners had
9 been killed, and would this offer of an all-for-for-all exchange have
10 been made if it weren't so?
11 A. It is illogical, and may affect many. If someone was trying to
12 keep things hidden, I suppose things would be done differently. This
13 document was send to five addressees.
14 Q. Thank you. When we were looking at P4458, would you agree that
15 interim combat reports are submitted much the same way as regular combat
16 reports, in writing?
17 A. When I discussed the way of reporting and daily operations
18 reports, they can be regular and interim. Regular reports are sent at a
19 certain time within any 24-hour period, and interim reports only when
20 there are emergency situations that need to be reported on immediately.
21 Q. Thank you. When you were in the Main Staff and before you went
22 on sick leave -- well, let's stick with June 1995. Did any report arrive
23 from the units to the Main Staff which would address the issue of any
24 crimes and that such information would not have been forwarded to me?
25 A. I have no such knowledge. I don't know. Such a report did not
2 Q. Those working on reports, would they have notified you, put you
3 on alert that something of that sort came in? And not only you but the
4 whole Main Staff.
5 A. Probably.
6 Q. The witness did not say "probably" but "yes." The witness said,
7 "Yes." Is that correct, General?
8 A. Yes.
9 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Please pause between
10 questions and answers. Thank you.
11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Obradovic, if you do not pause between the
12 question and answer, interpreters are having difficulties to follow you.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. My mistake too. I
15 believe it was not misinterpreted on purpose. We'll try to do our best.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. General, do you agree that the president of the republic, in
18 addition to the army also administers 60-plus municipalities and is the
19 head of many civilian bodies, is engaged in diplomacy and negotiations,
20 and is quite a busy man in times of war?
21 A. I suppose as much.
22 Q. Do you agree that under such conditions the president has
23 advisors who read reports on his behalf and report to him on such matters
24 which require his attention or intervention?
25 A. That would be the most rational way to organise and carry out
1 their work.
2 Q. Thank you. If in a report such as this one it is stated that
3 combat activities are developing according to plan, is it something that
4 should put my advisor on alert to inform you of this as if my action was
5 required, or would this fall under any regular army activity in a time of
7 A. This formulation that things are going according to plan meant
8 that there were no incidents and that there were no particular events
9 that needed attention.
10 Q. Do we agree that such activities developed according to plans
11 adopted at certain levels such as corps levels, or if it involved a
12 number of different corps, at the level of the Main Staff?
13 A. Yes, because corps plans of action were approved by the commander
14 of the Main Staff, and they implemented them, unless when several corps
15 were included and their activities needed to be co-ordinated from a level
16 which is superior to all of the corps involved.
17 Q. Thank you. Since we are short of time, we'll round off this
18 topic. At the time following your return and at the time of these
19 reports sent to the Main Staff and from the Main Staff to the president,
20 was there any talk of murders? Was any -- was there any discussion or
21 mention of such things?
22 A. Not in my presence.
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, shall we adjourn for today here?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, a correction.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. I asked this: You confirmed that in the written reports, there
2 were no references to any such incidents. What about oral communication
3 between people? Were there any such information -- was there any such
4 information about things illegal?
5 A. I didn't hear of any, and I was in no position to hear.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. We can
7 wrap things up for the day.
8 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Edgerton, I omitted to deal with associated
10 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honour, if it would save time, I'm
11 prepared -- I can compile a list overnight and send it to my colleague.
12 Administratively it might be a bit difficult.
13 JUDGE KWON: There are several that have already been admitted
14 during the course of your examination-in-chief, but I wonder whether
15 there are any objections to any item of the associated exhibits.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, since the associated exhibits
17 contained items from Zepa that we don't want to have those admitted, but
18 in principle, ones given -- the ones that were an essential part of the
19 redacted version that's now been deposited, we won't have any objection
20 to those.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Ms. Edgerton, for your information, the
22 Chamber has concerns about 65 ter number 1917 and 23594 -- no, I'm sorry,
23 the first one is 1917, and second one is 23607, as to whether they form
24 indispensable and inseparable part of the transcript. So the Chamber is
25 of the view that if you are minded to tender them, you need to deal with
1 them with the witness. So if you could come back tomorrow morning first
2 thing with respect to this.
3 MS. EDGERTON: Of course. Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.
5 Just a second. Mr. Tieger -- no.
6 Please have a nice evening, General Obradovic.
7 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.28 p.m.,
8 to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day
9 of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.