Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 25117

 1                           Thursday, 23 February 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 1.32 p.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, everyone.  The situation continues

 6     from yesterday as regards Judge Morrison, so we will continue to sit

 7     pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

 8             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon,

10     Mr. President, Your Honours.  Could we move into private session, please?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12                           [Private session]

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Page 25118

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The Chamber notes the request filed today by

 3     the Prosecution for leave to file a reply to the accused's response to

 4     Prosecution's second motion to admit evidence of Slobodan Stojkovic

 5     without cross-examination, filed on the 21st of February, 2012.

 6             The Chamber considers that it would be of assistance to the

 7     Chamber in deciding on the issue and therefore grants this request.

 8             Unless there are any other matters, then we'll bring in the

 9     witness.

10             In the meantime, we'll give the exhibit number for the public

11     redacted version for the transcript.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, that will be Exhibit P4100, 4100.

13                           [The witness takes the stand]

14                           WITNESS:  LJUBOMIR OBRADOVIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, General Obradovic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton, please continue.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Examination by Ms. Edgerton:  [Continued]

21        Q.   Good afternoon, General Obradovic.

22        A.   Good afternoon.

23        Q.   Before we move forward, I would just like to deal with a couple

24     of things from yesterday while it might be fresher in yours and

25     everyone's mind, and to begin with I'd like to go back to the

Page 25119

 1     organigramme we talked about yesterday.  That's now got the

 2     Exhibit number P4446, and I think you still have a copy of that

 3     organigramme on the table in front of you; is that correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Now, during the course of your explanation in the Tolimir case

 6     about the structures of the Main Staff and their relationships to one

 7     another, you explained the concept of professional control over some

 8     units that we see here depicted on the organigramme, saying that

 9     professional control does not entail the power to issue orders.  The line

10     of issuing orders goes along the line of subordination, which means from

11     the commander.  And that's at pages 11960 to 11962.

12             Do you remember giving that explanation, General?

13        A.   Yes.  Yes.

14        Q.   Well, then on the subject of this professional control, I'd like

15     to go back to this organigramme for a little while and have you talk

16     about a couple of the units that we didn't spend much time with

17     yesterday.

18             First, I'd like to draw your attention to a unit depicted on the

19     bottom left-hand corner, the 67th Communications Regiment.

20             Now, in the Tolimir -- in your Tolimir testimony, you said of

21     this regiment:

22             "Its main task is to organise the communications, to satisfy the

23     communications needs of the Main Staff.  It's attached to the commander.

24     In performing its professional duties, it's attached to the arms within

25     the staff sector."

Page 25120

 1             That was at pages 11960 to 11961.

 2             So when you say this unit is attached to the commander

 3     specifically, what do you mean?

 4        A.   The line of subordination I explained in general terms.  It goes

 5     down from the commander to the various sectors, the independent

 6     administrations, and all the units that you have lined up at the bottom.

 7     With regard to the 67th Communications Regiment, the chain of command, as

 8     they say in Croatia, or the line of subordination is the black one.  It

 9     goes down from the commander and then to all the other levels.

10             When Tolimir was contacted about that equipment if that's the

11     case you're referring to in the staff sector, there's a chief of

12     communications of that branch, and he is a professional organ.  And

13     through operational evidence, he monitors the condition in the

14     67th Communications Regiment with regard to his communications equipment,

15     with regard to the staff, the manpower, and he is responsible for their

16     professional training.

17             If at one point in time General Miletic played the role of

18     coordinator in the staff sector instead of General Milovanovic, well, in

19     that case it was his responsibility to contact the chief of

20     communications and assign him the task that General Tolimir had requested

21     to be carried out, the task that has to do with those encryption devices

22     and the K/2 device.

23        Q.   So you've just indicated that the line of subordination from the

24     commander to the 67th Communications Unit is the black one.  Now, does

25     this dotted line to the staff sector --

Page 25121

 1        A.   No.  From the commander to the Communications Regiment, it's the

 2     black line, and as for the professional organ, it's the red line.  The

 3     dotted red line that links up with the 67th Communications Regiment.

 4        Q.   All right.  Then let's go over to the other side of the

 5     organigramme --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  That dotted red line should be

 7     connected to chief of communication?  Is it your evidence,

 8     General Obradovic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is connected to the staff

10     sector, but within the staff sector, the communications organ is part of

11     the organ for the arms -- the arms and services and they're subordinated

12     to the Chief of Staff.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

16        Q.   So having heard that with respect to the 67th Communications

17     Regiment, maybe we could move over to something called the

18     10th Sabotage Detachment which is on the right-hand side of the

19     organigramme at the bottom.  And in your Tolimir testimony at page 11960,

20     you said similarly:

21             "This unit was under the command of the commander while,

22     professionally speaking, they were in a certain sense subordinated to the

23     intelligence administration because of their reconnaissance tasks."

24             Could you explain then in the case of this unit what you mean by

25     professional subordination?

Page 25122

 1        A.   Your Honours, as in the case of these organs of the arms and

 2     services in the staff sector, every has its own field of operations.  An

 3     infantryman is concerned with the infantry equipment, the staff.  He must

 4     tell the Chief of Staff if asked what sort of equipment he has.  He must

 5     provide him with that information.

 6             Similarly, the chief of an armed mechanised unit, well, they are

 7     responsible for training their units, for keeping records, and this is

 8     all done independently.

 9             In the case of anti-aircraft defence, the chief of the

10     anti-aircraft defence, he has to act in a similar manner.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let us clarify, because the terms you are using are

12     not consistent with the words that appear in the organigramme, so we are

13     a bit confused.

14             You said chief of armed mechanised unit.  Did you mean chief of

15     artillery or chief of armoured and mechanised units?  Did you refer to

16     Colonel Trkulja?

17        A.   Armoured and mechanised units.  Colonel Trkulja was the chief of

18     those units.  The chief of engineering, the chief of intelligence, all

19     these chiefs are responsible for their fields, for their profession.

20     They have to keep professional records.  They have to monitor the

21     equipment situation, the training of the men.  They must always be able

22     to submit suggestions to the chief of the staff and he has to submit

23     suggestions to the commander.  So the chief of the intelligence

24     administration, Colonel Salapura, for example, in professional terms he

25     keeps operational records for reconnaissance purposes, for training the

Page 25123

 1     men.  He has such activities for the Sabotage Detachment.  So that is the

 2     professional aspect of their responsibilities.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Was Colonel Salapura in the position to give orders

 4     directly to the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He could have if the commander had

 6     authorised him to do so.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:

 9        Q.   So then, General, do you think the red dotted line on this

10     organigramme linking the 10th Sabotage Detachment to Colonel Salapura

11     accurately reflects - pardon me - this unit's professional subordination

12     that you've just been describing?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   And just who would be responsible then for Colonel Salapura and

15     his professional control of the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

16        A.   The first superior of Colonel Salapura was General Tolimir as the

17     chief of sector for intelligence and security affairs.

18        Q.   Similarly, was General Tolimir in a position to give orders

19     directly to the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

20        A.   Just like Salapura, with the authorisation from the commander.

21        Q.   And then finally if we could go over back to the left side of the

22     organigramme, we have something, a unit called the 65th Protection

23     Regiment.  Who was its commander?

24        A.   Milomir Savcic.

25        Q.   Now, also in your Tolimir testimony at page 11962, you indicated

Page 25124

 1     that when it's about issuing orders, this unit was related to the

 2     commander, and you also pointed out that this unit contained a battalion

 3     of military police and that -- and you said that the security

 4     administration contained a department in charge of military police

 5     affairs.  So then what I'd like to know is did the security

 6     administration have professional control over the work of the military

 7     police battalion of this unit?

 8        A.   Intelligence or security?  What is the question?

 9        Q.   I specifically said security administration.

10        A.   According to the professional line, yes, and through the

11     detachment for the work of the military police.

12        Q.   Are you familiar with the nature of that professional control?

13     Could you give us an idea what you mean?

14        A.   They monitor work in professional terms.  It only concerns these

15     police tasks.

16        Q.   In professional terms meaning in what way?

17        A.   Well, in this department, the people who completed certain

18     security courses and they were intended for the work of the organs of the

19     military police.  These people exercise control in professional terms.

20        Q.   And who heads the security administration?

21        A.   Colonel Beara.

22        Q.   And who is he responsible to?

23        A.   To the chief of sector for intelligence and security affairs, to

24     General Tolimir.

25        Q.   Is Colonel Beara in a position to give orders to the military

Page 25125

 1     police battalion of the 65th Protection Regiment?

 2        A.   On condition that he received such authorisation from the

 3     commander.

 4        Q.   And would that be the same case with his superior who on this

 5     organigramme is listed as General Tolimir?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   So does the dotted line linking the military police battalion of

 8     this 65th Protection Regiment to the security administration accurately

 9     depict the relationship you've just described?

10        A.   Yes, it does.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  If in respect of this organigramme Your Honours

13     have no other questions at this time, I would move on.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just one question.  That dotted line from the

15     security administration, i.e., the professional line, is connected to

16     military police battalion, not to the 65th Protection Regiment.  Am I

17     correct in so understanding?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is the military police

19     unit.  From the regiment.

20             JUDGE KWON:  So Colonel Beara does not exercise professional

21     control over Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, performing such duties would

23     be done through the regiment commander.  I don't know why this was

24     separated here.  It should be related to the regiment.  The commander of

25     the regiment cannot be bypassed.  This military police battalion should

Page 25126

 1     not have been indicated separately.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll still move on, Your Honours.

 5        Q.   General Obradovic, yesterday I asked you whether the commander or

 6     other members of the Main Staff had meetings with Dr. Karadzic, and after

 7     I reminded you of a question and answer during your evidence in the

 8     Popovic case, you said those meetings were within the context of an

 9     analysis of combat readiness, and when such analysis were discussed, then

10     there would be political representatives attending.

11             Do you remember that?

12        A.   I don't know whether that was the case, because what you have

13     just referred to was four years ago.  I think the question concerned

14     General Milovanovic in particular, and the lawyer Petrusic asked whether

15     Miletic was replacing and I said yes.  General Milovanovic went to govern

16     meetings and meetings of the Assembly, I believe.  So that was the

17     question.  And yesterday I thought the question concerned the analysis of

18     combat readiness.

19             Yes.  They went to meetings with the supreme commander, but as to

20     how frequently and so on and so forth, I don't know, but there were

21     contacts.  They went to government meetings when military issues were

22     also discussed.  In 1996, on one occasion, I also went at the beginning

23     of July, I think, to a government meeting where the agenda concerned the

24     military.  There were four or five of us and we were led by the Chief of

25     Staff.  And that item was item number 18.  They put it right at the top.

Page 25127

 1     So this was the first item that was discussed so that they could let us

 2     go.

 3        Q.   I'd like to ask you, General, about this analysis of combat

 4     readiness you mentioned yesterday.  Who takes part all together in this

 5     combat readiness analysis?

 6        A.   The entire army takes part in the analysis of combat readiness.

 7     How do they do this?  Well, an analysis is performed for the previous

 8     year.  This is completed in battalions and divisions.  They then refer

 9     the case to the commands of brigades and regiments.  The commands of

10     brigades and regiments refer the case to the corps command.  They then

11     perform analysis of combat readiness there.  And when the analysis are

12     completed at the level of the corps command, the level of anti-aircraft

13     defence and in military academies, then you have a combat analysis at the

14     level of the Main Staff, at the level the army.  And these annual

15     analysis of combat readiness is an analysis that the political organs

16     participate in.  They were in a certain sense present.

17        Q.   Was there -- at the level of the Main Staff, was there an

18     analysis, as you've just described, done in 1995?

19        A.   In 1995, it was at the end of January that this analysis was

20     made.

21        Q.   And did the political organs take part in that analysis in 1995?

22        A.   I think they were present.

23        Q.   When you refer to the political organs, who do you mean in

24     particular?

25        A.   I mean the president, the vice-presidents, the minister of

Page 25128

 1     defence, the speaker of parliament.

 2        Q.   When you speak of the analysis at the Main Staff level, are there

 3     any conclusions drawn as a result?

 4        A.   On the basis of a plan that is made and when lower-ranking units

 5     are informed as to the time and place, then this plan says specifically

 6     commander starts the analysis.  This goes on for five or ten minutes, and

 7     then the 1st Corps follows and the 2nd Corps and so on and so forth, and

 8     then the commanders of other units and representatives of military

 9     schools and then the chiefs of sectors and of these two independent

10     administrations.  The corps commanders, when they take part in the

11     discussion, they finish their remarks by making certain proposals

12     regarding the following period, and then on the basis of that, tasks

13     should be formulated and incorporated into directives as combat

14     documents.

15        Q.   Just relating to the answer you've just given, how does the

16     president take part in these presentations?

17        A.   He listens to the presentations of the commanders of subordinate

18     units and representatives of the Main Staff.

19        Q.   Does the president take part?  Does he speak?

20        A.   Well, I wasn't present.  I don't know whether he took the floor

21     or not, but objectively speaking, he would address the gathering.

22        Q.   You mentioned that this -- this analysis would result in tasks

23     which are formulated and incorporated into directives as combat

24     documents.  Now, you spoke at length during your testimony in the

25     Tolimir case about directives, and I'm wondering whether the conclusions

Page 25129

 1     from this analysis have any relationship with the directives you

 2     discussed in your Tolimir testimony.

 3        A.   Well, part of the tasks and obligations that are formulated as

 4     tasks for the forthcoming period are defined as tasks in the directive as

 5     a general combat document.  So these are the tasks issued to the

 6     subordinates.

 7             Directives are combat documents of high commands that spell out

 8     for the future, for a longer period, important conclusions relating to

 9     combat activities.  Detailed tasks are not given to units in these

10     documents.  It is the objectives of the activities that are spelled out,

11     the general task and the basic idea of the commander.  So subordinate

12     commanders receive through these documents the necessary elements for

13     their own independent planning and execution of combat activities.

14        Q.   Did the analysis of combat readiness which you've just spoken

15     about that was conducted in 1995 have any relationship with directive 7?

16        A.   If we were to have the documents now and if we would look at

17     conclusions and tasks for particular corps, we would probably see what

18     was proposed to corps commanders, and we would probably see certain tasks

19     that were part of the directive.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid that we have to

21     intervene in the transcript where it says that this was proposed to

22     corps, but he said what the corps proposed.  If I understood this

23     correctly, during the analysis, corps present what the situation was in

24     relation to combat readiness, and they present their proposals.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm, General Obradovic?

Page 25130

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I said what the corps

 2     commanders proposed was included to a large extent in the directive.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Do you mean to say what the corps commanders proposed during the

 5     course of this analysis of combat readiness we've been discussing?

 6        A.   Yes.  They presented proposals regarding tasks.  They made these

 7     proposals to the command of the Main Staff and the Supreme Command for

 8     the forthcoming period.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  I'll move on.  Just a point of clarification -- just

10     a point of clarification from yesterday.  You said at page 25095 that all

11     these reports from the corps, from the anti-aircraft, from the schools,

12     and so on, came to the Main Staff, to the staff sector, to the

13     administration for operations and training.  And His Honour Judge Kwon

14     asked:

15             "I take it that that organ, or that unit, receives all the

16     reports addressed to the Main Staff."

17             And you answered, "Yes."

18             And as I said, by way of clarification, did your answer refer to

19     reports from all the military sectors or only to operations?

20        A.   It referred to daily operations reports from subordinate units.

21        Q.   Did the other Main Staff sectors similarly receive supports in

22     their areas of responsibility from subordinate units?

23        A.   That is in the professional field.  So this had to do with

24     command, whereas this meant that logistics organs received through their

25     own organs daily reports, and they followed the amounts of materiel that

Page 25131

 1     were being used, ammunition, fuel, food, and so on, whereas the chiefs of

 2     the arms and services were reported to on these professional tasks that

 3     pertained to them.

 4        Q.   So then in addition to the operational reports we discussed

 5     yesterday, do you know whether the president received reports from other

 6     sectors?

 7        A.   That I don't know.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  And now we'll go back to the series of documents we

 9     were dealing with when we broke yesterday - pardon me - which were

10     related to convoy movement.  The first one I'd like to deal with is

11     P4189, please.  It's a communication dated 31 March 1993, to UNPROFOR

12     command, signed on behalf of General Milovanovic, and listing a series of

13     14 convoys which were not approved for movement across VRS-held

14     territory.

15             Now, General, you recall looking at this document in preparation

16     for your testimony here today, I suspect, don't you?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   So this is a document of several pages, and my questions about

19     this are rather brief.  Could you first of all have a look at the bottom

20     of the first page and tell us whether you recognise the signature of who

21     signed on behalf of General Milovanovic.

22        A.   That is the signature of General Miletic.

23        Q.   Thank you.  And now could we go over to page 2 of both documents,

24     and briefly, the successive pages, and my question is, General, if you

25     could look at this first page and -- or this second page, it is.  Could

Page 25132

 1     you tell us whether you recognise those handwritten initials that appear

 2     at the top of the page beside the circled word "Ne" or "No"?

 3        A.   Yes, these are the initials of General Mladic.

 4        Q.   I wonder if my colleague could now flip to the next page in

 5     succession, and I would simply like the general to look at similar

 6     notations at the top of each page of this document.

 7             So, General --

 8        A.   No.

 9        Q.   Whose initials are these, General?

10        A.   The same of the commander of the Main Staff.

11        Q.   And do you remember looking through this document and recognising

12     the same initials at the top of every page?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Could we show him page 9 then.  You'll come to that.

14     Yes.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   Same question, General, with respect to this next page.  Whose

17     initials are those?

18        A.   Yes, yes.  I recognise them.  The initials are those of the

19     commander of the Main Staff.

20        Q.   And the next page.

21        A.   Same here.

22        Q.   On -- is every page of this -- thank you.

23        A.   The same.

24        Q.   Page 7, the same --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 25133

 1        Q.   Page 8 next, please.  Whose initials are these, General?

 2        A.   The same.  The same.

 3        Q.   And page 9.

 4        A.   The same.

 5        Q.   Now, the notations here, though, General, have one small change.

 6     There seems to be a "yes" initially written and, I think the word

 7     underneath it might read something like "limit," if I'm not mistaken,

 8     although it's not translated in the English version.  Do you see that

 9     difference?

10        A.   It says, "Yes," and then "through," and then in Cyrillic it says

11     "limit," or "restriction," and then that is crossed out.  And then it

12     says "no," and then the commander initialed that.  He probably had given

13     his approval in a limited way, but what affected his decision to make the

14     definite answer no, I don't know.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  Your Honours, I don't see --

16             JUDGE KWON:  So is "Da" also handwriting of Mr. Mladic?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Thank you.  This has already been

19     admitted.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  It has indeed.  Could we go next to P839.

21        Q.   It's a communication dated 7 April 1995 from the Main Staff to

22     the Drina Corps command with the signature block of General Milovanovic

23     informing that the Main Staff concurs with the implementation of permits

24     from the co-ordinating body for humanitarian assistance to Republika

25     Srpska but listing items from those convoys that weren't approved.

Page 25134

 1             General, if we could scroll down a little bit in the B/C/S

 2     version, do you see a remark towards the bottom of page 1 that says that

 3     material for the Swedish construction project for Srebrenica will not be

 4     approved until the Main Staff receives the position of the

 5     State Committee for Cooperation on this?

 6        A.   I didn't understand your question.

 7        Q.   I just asked if you saw the paragraph that I had just about read

 8     out to you.

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Is this the same State Committee for Cooperation headed by

11     Dr. Koljevic you referred to yesterday?

12        A.   I think it pertains to the same one.

13        Q.   Does this letter reflect co-ordination between the VRS civil

14     affairs administration and the political organ?

15        A.   I don't understand.  Where do you see co-operation?  This one

16     sentence in this one paragraph that you're referring to, and it has to do

17     with the material for the Swedish construction project for Srebrenica and

18     in Drinjaca on the 9th of April, 11th of April, and 13th of April, 1995,

19     for Srebrenica, full stop.  Until we receive the position of the state

20     committee regarding this matter.  They probably did not receive anything

21     from the state committee, and they probably could not give their consent

22     until the committee stated its position.

23             The fax could have reached the department apart from the

24     committee.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could we go now to 65 ter number 03640, dated

Page 25135

 1     14 April 1995.  It's a communication from the VRS Main Staff to military

 2     post 7111, notifying them of the approval and refusal of a number of

 3     convoys, signed by General Miletic.

 4             My first question, General, is:  Where was military post 7111?

 5        A.   I told you that I don't know.  But judging by this stamp up here

 6     where it says 7119, it pertains to some Zvornik Brigade.  Possibly the

 7     Drina Corps was military post 7111.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we go over on the next page to items 12 and

 9     13 of this document in B/C/S, please.  Thank you.

10        Q.   General, could you just have a look at those two items, 12 and

11     13, which refuse the passage of convoys to Gorazde and Zepa, relieving UN

12     military observers and translators.  And my question in relation to those

13     two items is:  Would you be able to explain for us what concerns the VRS

14     Main Staff might have in terms of relieving UN military observers and

15     translators in those areas?

16        A.   I don't know what led the commander to make this kind of

17     decision.

18        Q.   The last sentence of this communication tells the recipients to

19     inform check-points of the above and in case one of the convoys or

20     individual vehicles appears act as ordered.

21             Whose orders would General Miletic have been referring to?

22        A.   Well, the commander's orders.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please,

24     Your Honours?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 25136

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Given that the -- the limited amount of

 4     information the witness gave about this document, I'm wondering if we

 5     could just pass it for the moment and I can discuss it with Dr. Karadzic

 6     whether or not we want to object to this particular document.  I know

 7     there are documents we also want to use with respect to convoys and it

 8     may not be in our interest to object, but on the other hand, listening to

 9     the answers, it didn't seem like the witness really confirmed anything

10     about the document, particularly the fact that he was not -- he was on

11     leave during this period in addition.  But if you would just leave it as

12     it is right now and we can come back to it at the break.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Just a second.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  I would like you to come back after the break.

16             Yes.  Let's move on, Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  65 ter number 03700.

18        Q.   It's a document dated 2 June 1995, to the command of military

19     posts 7111 and 7102, signed by General Miletic, indicating they agree

20     with the approval of the co-ordinating body for HRRS for a number of

21     convoys but refusing from those the transport of school supplies, oil for

22     saws, and something called the Swedish construction project for

23     Srebrenica.

24             So my question, General, about this document is what -- in order

25     for this document to issue, would this have gone through the same process

Page 25137

 1     you described in your evidence yesterday, the process of approval

 2     following review?

 3        A.   In principle, yes.

 4        Q.   Do you see, General, any military justification for the

 5     Main Staff refusing - pardon me - the transport of one truck of school

 6     supplies to Srebrenica?

 7        A.   I cannot go into the reasons, especially in view of the fact that

 8     I wasn't there.  And even if I had been there, I don't know what a

 9     particular person or commander is guided by in a restrictive approach.

10        Q.   On the -- on the face of the document, do you see any military

11     justification for refusing the transport of school supplies?

12        A.   School supplies?  No.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Should we do the same with respect to this?  Yes,

16     Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Please.  Yes, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The reason you are putting these questions,

19     i.e., the convoy matters, to this witness is to strengthen your case

20     given the next witness can deal with this more appropriately.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, General Obradovic was within the

22     Main Staff.  He's spoken about the administration and able to identify

23     the department from which these documents emanate.  He's talked about the

24     process through which these documents would have gone before they're

25     issued.  So actually, Your Honour, I think even though he might not have

Page 25138

 1     been able to answer with respect to the last document my question

 2     relating to the content, his comments are more than sufficient to allow

 3     for the document's admission.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Fair enough.  Could you explore with him whether he

 5     can answer my question that I put to Mr. Momir Nikolic, i.e., whether

 6     there were separate rules for the humanitarian convoy on the one hand,

 7     and the military convoy on the other hand?  I think general mentioned

 8     briefly yesterday, but if you could clarify with him.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:

10        Q.   General, are you aware as to whether there were separate rules

11     regarding the passage of humanitarian convoys as opposed to military

12     convoys in effect -- pardon me, convoys across VRS territory?

13        A.   I think there were.  When it came to supply convoys for the

14     peacekeeping forces, it frequently happened that, for example, they asked

15     to be replenished with ammunition in the enclave without carrying out any

16     training or shooting exercise, and the question was where was that

17     ammunition then spent?  So, for example, they also applied for large

18     quantities of fuel for their resources in the enclave, and in our view it

19     was far beyond their realistic needs.  It all made us suspect that the

20     fuel in question may end up in enemy hands.  That was the difference

21     between military and humanitarian supply convoys.

22             The state committee held a wider jurisdiction in terms of

23     humanitarian convoys, and the army held the authority with regard to

24     UNPROFOR convoys.

25        Q.   But, General, what we see in these documents, this one in

Page 25139

 1     particular, implies an overlap of authority between these two organs, if

 2     I can call them that, because in the document before us, we see what

 3     appears to be the military authorities imposing a restriction on convoys

 4     approved by political organs.

 5        A.   I don't know precisely what guided the person who made the

 6     decision, but he had the responsibility for the situation in the field,

 7     and obviously the person in question had problems with such military

 8     issues or supplies.  The standing committee as a political body

 9     established by the civilian authorities probably dealt less with such

10     military matters.

11        Q.   General, did they work in conjunction with one another?

12        A.   They probably did, because in the preamble they are both referred

13     to.  In other words, they were in contact.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could I intervene, Ms. Edgerton.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Let us check whether my understanding is correct,

17     General Obradovic.  Let's start with this purely military convoy or

18     UNPROFOR convoy.  The state committee had nothing to do with such

19     military convoy.  Such convoys would be dealt with exclusively by the

20     VRS.  Am I correct?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  In case of the humanitarian convoys, UNHCR, ICRC, or

23     various organs, they were initially dealt with by the state committee.

24     However, even if the state committee gave consent to such convoys, VRS

25     had discretion on -- on the basis of military reasons not to agree with

Page 25140

 1     some decisions of the state committee.  That's why we see the formulation

 2     "We agree with the approval" in such documents as this.  Am I correct,

 3     sir?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, because the army was

 5     responsible for the situation in the field.  Humanitarian convoys, too,

 6     had some sort of escort, military escort.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An intervention in the transcript.

10     Line 5, page 23.  The witness said they were probably in contact, whereas

11     we don't have the word "probably."

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, let's continue, Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

14        Q.   I'd like to go next to 65 ter number 03703, dated 12 June 1995,

15     from the VRS Main Staff signed by General Miletic to the Drina Corps.

16             Now, this document also relates to convoys, agreeing with

17     authorisations issued by the organ called the HRRS, and it pertains to

18     members of Medecins sans Frontieres leaving Srebrenica, but this document

19     has a remark --

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we just -- I think the General might not be

21     able to see the B/C/S version.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can see.

23             MS. EDGERTON:

24        Q.   This document has a remark noting, among other things, that no

25     foreign MSF officials shall be allowed to enter the enclaves.

Page 25141

 1        A.   Could you remove the English version, please.

 2        Q.   Have you had a chance to look at the document now, General?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Now, is this consistent with the answer that you've just given

 5     Judge Kwon to the effect that the military -- the department for -- the

 6     VRS department for civil affairs had discretion not to agree with

 7     decisions of the state committee?

 8        A.   There is a remark in the document which states:

 9             "In the request submitted, there is information about personnel

10     shifts or rotations, which is not allowed."

11             I am not familiar with the context of it all.

12             The next sentence says:

13             "Only the specified persons have been approved to leave the

14     enclave.  Igor Mindiouk from Srebrenica," and someone else from Gorazde.

15             I don't know where they belonged.

16        Q.   General, this document also in the last sentence reads:

17             "In other words, no foreign Medecins sans Frontieres officials

18     will be allowed to enter the enclaves except perhaps for some drivers."

19             So I'm wondering, General, if this conditional approval is

20     consistent with the situation you've just explained to Judge Kwon.

21        A.   Yes.  It seems that the two people in question were allowed to

22     leave Srebrenica and Gorazde.  The person who is to implement this

23     document at the check-point is reminded that no foreigners are allowed to

24     enter the enclave save for the drivers who may appear at the check-point

25     with the aim of transporting these two people out.

Page 25142

 1        Q.   General, do you have any idea what interest the VRS Main Staff

 2     would have had in preventing Medecins sans Frontieres from entering the

 3     enclaves?

 4        A.   I don't know what the abbreviation MSF stands for.

 5        Q.   I thought I had just said Medecins sans Frontieres.  Doctors

 6     Without Borders.

 7        A.   I don't know what the person making the decision was guided by.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, could this be marked as a

 9     Prosecution exhibit.

10             JUDGE KWON:  We'll deal with it at one go after the break.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  That's fine.  I'll move on.

12             65 ter number 03546, please.  It's a document from the VRS

13     Main Staff, dated 3 July 1995, to the Drina Corps command, approving a

14     DutchBat convoy of 20 men leaving Srebrenica but not approving the

15     convoy's return.

16             I'm sorry, but is there any way you can just shift the B/C/S

17     version a little bit over to the right so the General can see all of the

18     text?  He misses just a little bit.  Or to the left then.

19        Q.   General, what effect does this refusal for return of the convoy

20     have on UNPROFOR's manpower levels in Srebrenica at this time?

21        A.   I don't know why this decision was made that no return be

22     allowed.  It seems logical that if some people left and others did not go

23     in they will be short of personnel.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  And for the last convoy-related document, can we

Page 25143

 1     see 65 ter number 03548.  I think it might have a suffix A, small A.

 2     It's a document from the VRS Main Staff dated 5 July 1995, to military

 3     posts 7598 and 7111, signed by General Miletic.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  There's no suffix A on it apparently.  It's 03548.

 6        Q.   General, paragraph 4 of this document refers to the approved

 7     medical evacuation from Srebrenica of a Dutch soldier, specifically

 8     instructing that this convoy should be exhaustively checked at the

 9     Yellow Bridge to prevent photo and video material being taken out, and

10     that if you find any such material, it is to be confiscated and the

11     Main Staff is to be informed.

12             Is this a convoy request, General, that would have fallen

13     strictly within the area of responsibility of the --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Can you see paragraph 4?  Probably

15     page 2 in English.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  And now on the English version we have to go over

17     to the next page for paragraph 4.  Thank you.

18        Q.   Now, is this a document that would have fallen strictly within

19     the area of responsibility of the VRS civil affairs office in terms of

20     its processing?

21        A.   If you have in mind the restriction pertaining to video and

22     photographic material, it was rather a security matter.  It was more that

23     than the area of responsibility of the department that you referred to.

24        Q.   So then in terms of the processing of this request, who would

25     have been involved in the review?

Page 25144

 1        A.   I cannot say anything specific.  I was not present when the

 2     document was created.  However, if for some reasons, counter-intelligence

 3     reasons, such information may have arrived from the security

 4     administration or from intelligence administration in order to protect

 5     military information and the positions of the VRS that may have been

 6     located along the route of the convoy.

 7        Q.   General, what interest would the Main Staff have in preventing

 8     photo and video material being taken out of Srebrenica?

 9        A.   I don't know what made the security or intelligence organ decide

10     this.

11        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to move on to another topic now and talk

12     about some of the daily operations reports to the president that we were

13     discussing yesterday and look at some examples of the type of information

14     contained in those reports.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have 65 ter number 04116.

16        Q.   And while we wait, perhaps I could ask you, General, among other

17     things, did the operations reports that were sent to Dr. Karadzic include

18     such things as information on the military's engagement in active combat

19     or the implementation of operational plans?

20        A.   Yes.  I have discussed the contents of daily operations reports

21     yesterday.  They contained information about the enemy, possible

22     intentions and situation.  It also contained information about our own

23     forces in terms of grouping intentions and tasks, as well as losses in

24     materiel and personnel.  It also had information about adjacent units and

25     any new corps commanders' decisions if there were any that were needed to

Page 25145

 1     continue with the activities.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we just go over to the very last page of this

 4     document which was issued by General Miletic on behalf of the

 5     Chief of Staff.

 6        Q.   Now, above the signature block do you see the initials "nt/pm"?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Do you know who those refer to?

 9        A.   These maybe the initials of the Nedeljko Trkulja.  And then after

10     the slash it may have been Paulina Mitrovic, a stenographer or typist.

11        Q.   Who was Nedeljko Trkulja?

12        A.   Colonel Nedeljko Trkulja was in the Main Staff, in the staff

13     sector of the Main Staff.  He was head of -- or chief of armoured

14     mechanised units organ.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we go over to paragraph 6 on B/C/S page 3.

16     And I'll just wait until paragraph 6 in English comes up.

17        Q.   General, paragraph 6(b) reads that the main body of the force is

18     engaged in persistent defence -- pardon me.  Paragraph 6(b) which refers

19     to events in the zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps reads that:

20             "The main body of the force is engaged in persistent defence

21     while a part of the forces is engaged in active combat operations,

22     especially around the Srebrenica enclave where they are carrying out

23     combat tasks as planned."

24             Is this an example of reports to Dr. Karadzic which talk about

25     the implementation of operational plans?

Page 25146

 1        A.   You can see that from the document.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please,

 3     Your Honours?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P4449, Your Honours.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we now go to 65 ter number 03969, which is a

 8     VRS Main Staff operations report to the president on 11 July 1995.

 9        Q.   General, as you've indicated, these operations reports could also

10     include information on significant territorial gains or military

11     developments.  Isn't that correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we go over, please, to paragraph 6(b) again

14     on B/C/S page 3, relating to the situation in the Drina Corps zone of

15     responsibility.

16        Q.   And there in paragraph 6(b), it reads that:

17             "In the course of the day, our forces entered the town of

18     Srebrenica."

19             Is this an --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Page 4 in English.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MS. EDGERTON:

24        Q.   Is this an example of one of those reports that includes

25     information on significant territorial gains or military developments?

Page 25147

 1        A.   I'm not sure where the sentence you quoted is precisely.

 2        Q.   Paragraph 6(b).

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the witness could read out

 4     the entire paragraph, as well as the date when it was received.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Did you find the paragraph, General?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] 6(b)?

 7             "The situation in the corps.  The corps units are at full combat

 8     readiness.  The main body of the forces is engaged in persistent defence

 9     while parts of the forces are engaged in offensive operations around the

10     enclave of Srebrenica.  During the day our forces entered the town of

11     Srebrenica.  Regarding the results achieved and other details" --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm finished with that document.  Could that be a

14     Prosecution exhibit, please?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We don't have any objection

18     to this.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted as Exhibit P4450.

20             Shall we take a break if it is convenient with you, Ms. Edgerton?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We will break for half an hour and resume at 3.30.

23                           --- Recess taken at 2.58 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 5.03 p.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon again.  The proceedings have been

Page 25148

 1     delayed due to technical difficulties, and for the same reason, we will

 2     sit here at Courtroom III tomorrow as well.

 3             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We do not have any objection

 5     to the admission of the exhibits that we discussed before the recess.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for your reminder.  I think we have -- we

 7     dealt with five documents, Ms. Edgerton, 65 ter number 3640, 3700, 3703,

 8     3546, 3548.  They will be admitted.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P4451 through P4455 respectively,

10     Your Honours.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Ms. Edgerton, how long do you have,

12     just for planning purposes?

13             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll try and keep it to around 45 minutes,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

16             MS. EDGERTON:

17        Q.   General, you confirmed in your Tolimir testimony that information

18     from the VRS corps level operations report was put into or inserted into

19     the VRS Main Staff reports to the president; is that correct?  Do you

20     remember that?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have a reference?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  That's page 11982 in the transcript of the Tolimir

23     testimony.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Pardon me.  I'd like to then look at a corps-level

Page 25149

 1     report, 65 ter number 02004, from the Drina Corps command to the VRS

 2     Main Staff, dated 14 July 1995.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  02004.

 5        Q.   Now, just a couple of questions about this document, General.  If

 6     you look at the reference number on the top left-hand side above the

 7     date, you'll see that it begins with 03.  Does that number indicate

 8     anything in particular?

 9        A.   03 indicates the staff.

10        Q.   Does it indicate any sector of the staff in particular?

11        A.   03/4 refers to the administration for operations and training.

12        Q.   Now --

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Just going back for a

14     moment to this page 11982 that we were given the reference for, it was --

15     if you look at the transcript, actually, he was speaking of a --

16             JUDGE KWON:  11982.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Right.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give me a minute.  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  He was actually asked a question about a

20     specific document with respect to Zepa, and his answer was, "Yes.  That

21     was taken over from a Drina Corps report."  And I believe in other parts

22     of his testimony he indicated that the reports that went to the president

23     were reduced from the -- by the information that was reported by the

24     Drina Corps to the Main Staff, and so I don't think that the question --

25     that the reference given by Ms. Edgerton actually fairly reflects her

Page 25150

 1     question, so I -- it's often Dr. Karadzic who is the one who is being

 2     questioned about his references, and I think that it's only fair that

 3     when a reference by the Prosecutor is not quite right that we point that

 4     out.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We can move on.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.  And is this -- if we could turn over

 7     to the very last page of this document and then I'll have another

 8     question.  Thank you.

 9        Q.   Now, having seen both pages of this report, is this operations

10     report from the Drina Corps something that would have been received

11     within your sector at the Main Staff?

12        A.   Your Honours, a minute ago I was asked about this number on the

13     first page.  I thought it was a report from the Main Staff to the

14     commander, and I said it was 03/4, but it's a Drina Corps report, so I

15     couldn't really say which organ is concerned, but obviously the reports

16     are from the Drina Corps.  Here it says:  "For the commander."  I don't

17     know who signed it, but given the contents of the report, the contents as

18     such would be forwarded in accordance with the regular procedure.

19        Q.   So was this something that would have been received within your

20     sector in the Main Staff?

21        A.   Could you please go back to the first page so that I can see how

22     it has been laid out.  Yes.

23        Q.   I heard you --

24        A.   That's the structure.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Now, here in this document do you see the second sort

Page 25151

 1     of subparagraph under section 2, under the heading "Combat readiness,"

 2     which reads:

 3             "The terrain is being combed in the 1st Milici Light Infantry

 4     Brigade, the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, and the Skelani

 5     Independent Battalion zone of responsibility, and a large number of

 6     Muslims fleeing from the Srebrenica enclave have been surrendering."

 7             Are you able to identify that paragraph?

 8        A.   Yes.  This concerns the Independent Skelani Infantry Battalion.

 9     It says that the terrain is being combed, and a large number of Muslims

10     fleeing from the Srebrenica enclave have been surrendering.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Now could we go to 65 ter number 01918.  It's a

13     VRS Main Staff report to the president on the same date, 14 July 1995.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, did you mean to tender that document?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Not at this moment.  I'd like to deal with the

16     next document and then move both of them in, please.

17        Q.   Now, do you see this Main Staff report to the president and the

18     corps of the army on the screen in front of you?

19        A.   Yes.  Yes.

20        Q.   Now, this number that appears just above the date on the top

21     left-hand corner of the page, 03/3-195, what does that denote?

22        A.   The administration for operations and training.

23        Q.   And that's -- is that the sector that you served in?

24        A.   Yes.  That's the administration that is within the staff sector.

25        Q.   And is this then the administration that issued this document?

Page 25152

 1        A.   Well, since it's been registered, recorded, I assume that that is

 2     the case.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we now please go over to paragraph 6(b),

 5     which relates to the situation in the area of responsibility of the

 6     Drina Corps.  That's B/C/S page 3 and English page 3 as well, I think.

 7        Q.   Now, under heading 6(b), General, do you see where it reads:

 8             "The main body of the corps is engaged in defence whereas the

 9     Milici and Bratunac brigades as well as the Skelani Independent Battalion

10     are scouring the terrain and receiving a large number of Muslim fugitives

11     who are surrendering to them"?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Now, is this information very similar to the information we just

14     saw laid out in the Drina Corps command report?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And do you know how that would come about?  Why is the

17     information so very similar?

18        A.   Well, the purpose of reporting is to provide accurate information

19     on the events in the field.  The information provided should not diverge

20     in any way.

21        Q.   Diverge in any way from what?

22        A.   Well, diverge from the information contained in the Drina Corps

23     report.

24        Q.   Was -- are you describing a practice, then, in the method of

25     compiling or preparing the reports to the president?

Page 25153

 1        A.   Well, it doesn't have to be identical.  It's not necessary to

 2     copy the contents of a given report, but the essence of the events has to

 3     be accurately conveyed.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we, just before we leave this document, go

 5     to the very last page, please.

 6        Q.   Do you see just above the signature block, which reads

 7     "General Miletic standing in for the Chief of Staff," the initials

 8     "nt/gp"?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Whose initials are those, do you know?

11        A.   I assume those are the initials of Nedeljko Trkulja from the

12     staff sector, but I don't know who the typist is.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  I'd like to move both of those documents now in as

15     Prosecution exhibits, if I may, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Both will be admitted.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P4456 and P4457 respectively,

18     Your Honours.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we now see another Drina Corps report to the

20     VRS Main Staff, 65 ter number 02018, dated 18 July 1995.

21        Q.   Do you see the report I've just mentioned on the screen in front

22     of you, General?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And does this report come from the same sector as the previous

25     Drina Corps report we've just looked at?

Page 25154

 1        A.   When I look at the number, I would say yes.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we go over to the last page of the document in

 3     both languages, please.

 4        Q.   And do you see whose signature block appears on this document?

 5        A.   I can see the name that's been printed, but I don't know whose

 6     signature it is.

 7        Q.   Whose's name's been printed?

 8        A.   Commander Major-General Radislav Krstic.

 9        Q.   And who was he?

10        A.   The corps commander.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, could we just move over -- back over to

13     heading 1 of this document in both languages.

14        Q.   Now, at the beginning, I think it's the first, second, third,

15     fourth line down from the top of heading 1, you see the report that

16     begins:

17             "Parts of broken forces from Srebrenica organised into smaller

18     formations continued their attempts to break through the brigade's zone

19     towards Tuzla.  In the general Planinica and Potocani sector, small

20     groups were discovered and mostly destroyed, but a small number got

21     through our position during the night of 17/18 July 1995."

22        A.   Yes, I see that part.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we now go to the VRS Main Staff report to

25     the president, also dated 18 July, 65 ter number 4009.

Page 25155

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Please slow down for the sake of the

 2     interpreters.  Thank you.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:

 4        Q.   Now, once again, this document, the line above the date bears the

 5     number 03/3-199.  Does that number denote anything?

 6        A.   I've already said that this is a number used for the operations

 7     and training administration.

 8        Q.   Your administration, in other words.

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we please go over to section 6 of this

11     document in both languages, and it's on the fourth page in B/C/S and I

12     think the sixth page in English.  Oh, I've got my numbers wrong in B/C/S.

13     Your indulgence for a moment.

14             JUDGE KWON:  You mean 6(b).

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Next page for the English.

17             MS. EDGERTON:

18        Q.   Now, about halfway through this paragraph 6(a), and I'll just try

19     and identify the line for you, your indulgence for a moment.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Do you mean the last sentence:

21             "Blocking and destroying the broken up Muslim formations"?

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I actually see it halfway through the top

23     paragraph on the English page and I think it's the one, two, three, four,

24     five, sixth sentence from the top of paragraph 6(a).

25        Q.   After mention of the name Sopotnica-Kopaci, do you see reference

Page 25156

 1     to:

 2             "The broken-up enemy forces from the Srebrenica enclave have been

 3     trying to break through towards Tuzla in smaller groups"?

 4             Do you see that line, General?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Here again this language is very similar from the report

 7     generated by the Drina Corps.  Isn't that correct?

 8        A.   It's similar, but there are other elements that concern a unit

 9     that appeared and that was withdrawing in the direction of Udrc.

10        Q.   How would your sector ensure consistency in the information?  Was

11     there a methodology applied in preparing the reports that went to the

12     president?

13        A.   Well, there was no methodology.  The methodology was quite clear.

14     On the basis of subordinate reports, one would draft reports that would

15     be forwarded to one's superiors.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Could I have these two, 65 ter number 02018 and

18     04009, as Prosecution exhibits, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibits P4458 and P4459 respectively,

21     Your Honours.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we go now to a VRS Main Staff report to the

23     president dated 15 July 1995, 65 ter number 01919.

24        Q.   Do you see that report on the screen in front of you, General?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 25157

 1        Q.   Is this report, like the previous reports, generated by your

 2     administration?

 3        A.   It's from the staff sector.  It's not mine, but, yes, the number

 4     is the number used for the operations and training administration.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we please go over to the very last page,

 6     signature-block page of this document.

 7        Q.   Now, here we have initials "nt/mm" just above the signature

 8     block.  Do you know -- pardon me.  Does "nt," to your knowledge, refer to

 9     the same "nt" in the previous documents, Nedeljko Trkulja?

10        A.   Well, I assume it refers to the same person.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  If we could go over to paragraph 6(b), which is on

12     English pages 3 and 4, and I think the bottom of B/C/S page 3, please.

13     Thank you.

14        Q.   Under the heading "Situation in the corps," which is at the

15     bottom of the page you see in front of you, it reports:

16             "The 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade with its reinforcements

17     is carrying out preparations to cut off and encircle enemy soldiers

18     en route from Planinica to Kljevci.  The 1st Milici Light Infantry

19     Brigade, the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, and the Skelani

20     Independent Battalion have used some of their troops to scour the terrain

21     in order to discover the enemy groups which are lagging behind."

22             Would this information have been drawn from, based on your

23     experience, reports originating from the Drina Corps command?

24        A.   Yes.  Yes.

25             MS. EDGERTON:  Could this be a Prosecution exhibit, please?

Page 25158

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4460, Your Honours.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  One more VRS Main Staff report to the president,

 4     please, dated 19 July 1995.  It's 65 ter number 13606.

 5        Q.   Once again, General, we see a document with the same prefix to

 6     the reference number 03, and does this then indicate that it was issued

 7     by the same department as the previous Main Staff operations reports

 8     we've been viewing?

 9        A.   Yes.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  And once again, can we just go over to the

11     signature block on the last page.

12        Q.   There's different initials here that appear above the signature

13     block which is General Miletic's signature block.  Do you -- can you tell

14     us who those initials might represent?

15        A.   It seems to be "sb."

16        Q.   And who was named "sb" within the Main Staff?

17        A.   In terms of initials and in terms of the first and last name, it

18     could be Bogdan Sladojevic.  Now, whether it is him or not, I cannot say.

19     I don't know if there's anybody else with these initials "sb."

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Can we go over to paragraph 6(a) under the heading

22     "Zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps," and 6(a) is the sub-heading

23     "Enemy."  In English you have to go just one page further to get the

24     text.

25        Q.   Now, in paragraph 6(a) under the heading "Enemy," we see the

Page 25159

 1     report that:

 2             "In the zone of the responsibility of the 1st Zvornik

 3     Light Infantry Brigade, enemy formations from the Srebrenica enclave were

 4     smashed and surrounded in Planinci and Baljkovici villages, and in

 5     sectors Bijela Zemlja and Gornja Kamenica, enemy groups are attempting to

 6     break through to Muslim-controlled territory.  On the front facing

 7     Gorazde, the enemy attacked the Sjenokos and the Jabucko Sedlo features

 8     with infantry weapons."

 9             Now, as was the case with the previous reports to the president,

10     is this information that would have been drawn from the operations

11     reports received in the Main Staff from the Drina Corps?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Could that be a Prosecution exhibit, please.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P4461, Your Honours.

16             MS. EDGERTON:

17        Q.   Now, General, this document was dated 18 July, and I'm just

18     wondering if that's before or after the date that you returned to --

19             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, was it not 19th of July?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  It was indeed.  Pardon me.

21        Q.   Was that before or after you returned to active service in the

22     Main Staff?

23        A.   After.

24        Q.   And when did you return?

25        A.   The 17th.

Page 25160

 1        Q.   And where did you come from to return to Main Staff headquarters?

 2        A.   Sick leave.

 3        Q.   And where did you spend your sick leave?

 4        A.   In Derventa.

 5        Q.   And how did you travel from Derventa to Main Staff headquarters?

 6        A.   By car.  Somebody else drove me.  It wasn't my car.

 7        Q.   And what route did you take?

 8        A.   Bijeljina, Zvornik, Drinjaca, Milici, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak.

 9        Q.   Did you en route receive any information related to the security

10     situation during your travels?

11        A.   I think that we were warned in Zvornik that there were some armed

12     groups that were crossing that road and that we should be careful because

13     there were cases of action taken against cars.  People were killed,

14     wounded.

15        Q.   Did you receive any information as to where those armed groups

16     had come from?

17        A.   From the Srebrenica enclave.

18        Q.   Now, when you got back to Main Staff headquarters, did you resume

19     your previous duties?

20        A.   As usual, yes.

21        Q.   And as part of those duties, did you continue to receive and

22     review operations reports from the corps on the situation in the field?

23        A.   No, because we compiled a list because the operations centre had

24     never really started operating.  Then we compiled a list.  People who

25     were free, who were not involved somewhere in the field, they would write

Page 25161

 1     the report for that day.  They would take the report and write it up.

 2        Q.   When you say "write it up," are you referring -- what -- what

 3     would you be writing up?  What are you referring to?

 4        A.   Well, the daily operations report to the supreme commander and

 5     subordinate units and also forward command posts that were active at the

 6     time.

 7        Q.   In order to write up that report, did you receive or review

 8     reports, corps-level operations reports?

 9        A.   Are you referring to me personally?

10        Q.   Given the answer to your previous question, yes.

11        A.   Not I personally.  It was the person who compiled the report, the

12     person who was assigned to write that report on that day.

13        Q.   Did you receive or did you become aware of the situation in the

14     theatre as a consequence of your duties following your return?

15        A.   Well, of course I knew on the whole what was going on, that an

16     attack had been carried out against the enclave, that the forces from the

17     enclave had been crushed.  I heard about that as I was travelling since

18     they had told me to be careful when covering that part of the route.

19             MS. EDGERTON:  Could we have a look, please, at 65 ter number

20     136 -- pardon me.  65 ter number 02058.  It's a document dated

21     25 July 1995, from the 1st Podrinje Brigade, signed by General Tolimir,

22     entitled "Agreement on the disarmament of Zepa."

23        Q.   General, have you seen this document before?

24        A.   Yes, during the previous trials.  Now, was it 2008 or Tolimir,

25     but anyway, I don't know.  I did see them, though.

Page 25162

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  Now, paragraph 4 of this document in B/C/S, which

 2     I think is actually at the bottom of this page.  My mistake.  It's on the

 3     next page.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Should refer to the English portion.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  It's my problem with numbers.  I have a degree in

 6     English, not mathematics, Your Honour.  If we could please scroll up in

 7     both documents.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Page 1 in English?

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, absolutely.  It's the one -- first, second,

10     third paragraph from the top, which reads:

11             "Our commission should demand all our war prisoners, including

12     ones from Gorazde and Bihac.  Our war prisoners have to be released

13     between 25 and 28 July 1995."

14        Q.   Now, General, as you were familiar with the situation at the

15     time, I wonder if you could explain to us effectively what's the rush?

16     Why do all Serb prisoners have to be released over this three-day period

17     that starts with the very same date of this letter, 25 July 1995?

18        A.   I don't know.

19        Q.   If we go down the page to the paragraph immediately following,

20     where it says:

21             "Advise State Commission for War Prisoners and SRK commission not

22     to agree to longer procedure considering that Muslims could take

23     advantage of the signed agreement under pressure from Sarajevo, which

24     they have already tried to do by bringing up the issue of prisoners from

25     Srebrenica."

Page 25163

 1             Do you see that paragraph?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What was the issue of prisoners from Srebrenica?

 4        A.   I don't know what this was all about.  I was not involved in work

 5     related to exchanges or negotiations, so I really cannot have a position

 6     on that.

 7        Q.   General, your indulgence for a moment, please.  You've just

 8     talked about your familiarity with the situation following your return to

 9     duty.  We've looked at reports sent to the president on large numbers of

10     people surrendering to Serb forces.  Do you -- are you saying that you

11     don't know the number of prisoners that were taken as a consequence of

12     the fall of Srebrenica?

13        A.   I did not have that information.  But Tolimir says here -- I

14     mean, he had some knowledge that I do not.  Since we have some

15     information -- after all, he is the head of the sector for intelligence

16     and security.  I do not have the kind of information that he has.  So the

17     question is where is he sending this telegram from, to General Gvero or

18     General Miletic personally?  This is a document that is sent directly to

19     either one of the two.  He doesn't say one and the other but one or the

20     other.

21             I'm not part of the negotiations concerning POWs or anything

22     else, so I cannot say.  We are not in the same place.  Possibly I would

23     have known had I been involved in the process, but I was not involved in

24     that process.

25        Q.   During the course of your duties, did you not have occasion to

Page 25164

 1     see information on the situation in the theatre in Zepa?

 2        A.   The report of the corps command.

 3        Q.   Did the report of the corps command on the situation in Zepa talk

 4     about the military situation?

 5        A.   Yes, but there was no reference to exchanges, and this

 6     information that General Tolimir provided by telegram personally to

 7     General Gvero or General Miletic.

 8        Q.   General, what do you know about the prisoners who were taken by

 9     VRS forces following the fall of the enclave of Srebrenica?

10        A.   At that point in time I did not know.  As for subsequent

11     knowledge, that is different from knowledge from the time when all of

12     this was happening.  Even subsequent knowledge is not rich.

13        Q.   Did -- at the time, General, do you not recall seeing television

14     reports on the number of prisoners held by VRS forces following the fall

15     of the enclave?

16        A.   I watch TV news.  Now, whether figures were being mentioned, I

17     don't remember, but it was said that there were Srebrenica soldiers who

18     had been taken prisoner.

19        Q.   So what was the issue with respect to those prisoners?

20        A.   Again you're asking me to speculate.  I don't know.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's go on to 65 ter number -- oh, pardon me,

22     before leaving this document, your indulgence for a moment.

23             JUDGE KWON:  And before leaving this document, General Obradovic,

24     could you kindly read the paragraph that starts with "Advise State

25     Commission for War Prisoners and SRK commission."  Could you read it

Page 25165

 1     slow.  Could you read it aloud.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Advise State Commission for

 3     Prisoners of War and the commission of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps that

 4     they should not agree to a longer process considering that the Muslims

 5     could take advantage of the signed agreement under pressure from

 6     Sarajevo, which they had already tried to do by bringing up the issue of

 7     prisoners from Srebrenica."

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one correction.  After this:

11     "... you are asking me to speculate," the witness also said, "I don't

12     know," and that was not reflected in the transcript.

13             MS. EDGERTON:

14        Q.   General, are you familiar with the State Commission for

15     War Prisoners?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   What was the SRK commission?

18        A.   Well, I don't know.  It was probably organised in corps.  I don't

19     know who it was.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?  Maybe this

21     is an abbreviation for prisoners of war, because there was no commission

22     of that kind.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, maybe it is the Commission for

24     Exchanges, and I interpreted it differently.

25             MS. EDGERTON:

Page 25166

 1        Q.   Are you implying, then, that these organs are civilian organs or

 2     military organs?

 3        A.   I cannot say.  I don't know.

 4        Q.   But I thought you just agreed with Dr. Karadzic when you said

 5     maybe it's the Commission for Exchanges.  I'm sorry, I don't understand.

 6     What do you mean by that?

 7        A.   Well, every corps had a Commission for Exchanges, and at their

 8     own level they had contacts with the other side, and they were involved

 9     in exchanges.  And I know that General Tolimir was also involved in

10     exchanges since he had my brother exchanged from Gorazde in 1994.

11        Q.   So if I consider your answer, can we take it that this document

12     is a direction from General Tolimir affecting the corps Commission for

13     Exchange?

14        A.   He is sending this personally to General Gvero, the chief of

15     sector for moral guidance and religious and legal affairs, or to

16     General Miletic.  The document is not being sent to corps.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  I'll just go on to one final document,

18     65 ter number 02053.  It's a document dated 29 July 1995, from the VRS

19     Main Staff sector for intelligence and security, signed by

20     General Tolimir, to the Drina Corps, the intelligence and security organ,

21     Rajko Kusic, and Captain Pecanac.  And it's entitled "Disarmament of the

22     Zepa Brigade."

23        Q.   And I wonder if you can have a look at the end of the first

24     sentence of the first paragraph for us, General, which refers to an

25     exchange of prisoners carried out in the whole territory according to the

Page 25167

 1     principle all for all.  Do you see that?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   What does that mean, "all for all"?

 4        A.   "All for all" means that there are no conditions being set by

 5     this or that.  So it's all those who are prisoners on one side that

 6     should be exchanged for all those who are prisoners on the other side.

 7        Q.   How is that different from a one-for-one exchange of detainees of

 8     the kind that's discussed in the next paragraph of this document, where

 9     we see a report on a change in position as regards prisoner exchange and

10     an indication that Serb forces were looking for a one-for-one exchange of

11     detainees from different parts of Bosnian-held territory with people in

12     Batkovic camp?

13             So what's a one-for-one exchange?

14        A.   "One for one" means if I've been taken prisoner, I'm being

15     exchanged for another man on the other side who holds the same rank that

16     I do.

17        Q.   What was Batkovic camp?

18        A.   Well, a camp is a camp.  Probably for putting up prisoners.  It's

19     the Eastern Bosnia Corps, the area of Bijeljina.

20        Q.   Under whose control?

21        A.   Well, there was physical security there provided probably by the

22     Eastern Bosnian Corps, because it's in their zone, in their area, their

23     territory.

24        Q.   This document goes on and directs VRS forces to:

25             "Continue combat operations in order to surround and destroy the

Page 25168

 1     1st Zepa Brigade until the Muslims make the exchange and carry out the

 2     agreement from the 24 July related to their disarmament and surrender.

 3     Take all necessary measures to prevent them from leaving the

 4     encirclement.  Do not register persons you capture before cessation of

 5     fire and do not report them to international organisations."

 6             Do you see that paragraph, General?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  -- I think it would be only fair to read that last

10     sentence also.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, no problem.

12             "We are going to keep them for exchange in case the Muslims do

13     not carry out the agreement or they manage to break through from the

14     encirclement."

15        Q.   So, General, is this direction not to register prisoners in

16     accordance with the rules of military conduct as you understood them?

17        A.   It's not, but he goes on here and he doesn't say do not register

18     them at all.  He says register them, but do not display this to

19     international organs.  But he says that they should be kept for exchanges

20     because he's afraid that the other side would deceive him.  And in order

21     to prevent that from happening, he will have them for an exchange in case

22     there is deceit.  So they are going to keep them, but it was impossible

23     for him not to have registered them at all.  It is one thing not to

24     provide the papers to the international organisation if the other side

25     was willing to deceive him, but if there is this kind of deceit, we are

Page 25169

 1     still going to have them for an exchange.

 2        Q.   How could you possibly know that?

 3        A.   I didn't.  I have just read it.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  In his answer, line 24, 25, on the previous page:

 6             "He doesn't say do not register them at all.  He says register

 7     them, but do not display this to the international organs."

 8             Is this what this document is saying, General Obradovic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do not register, and do not display

10     that material to international organisations.  Keep them for an exchange

11     in case the Muslims do not abide by the agreement or break out of the

12     encirclement.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So General Tolimir said here not to register the

14     persons captured.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Did you tender the previous document --

17             MS. EDGERTON:  No, Your Honour.  I'd like to deal with them

18     together now, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I cut you off, Mr. Obradovic.  What did you

20     say?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  It is illogical to hold

22     someone without registering them.  They simply wanted to have them as a

23     reserve, so to speak, in case of they were double-crossed.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need to intervene.  Does the

25     document say "keep them" or "hold them," because it seems that it was

Page 25170

 1     translated to hold them.  What does it say in the original?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To keep them for exchange.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To preserve them, not keep them.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Well, that's a separate matter that may be explored.

 5             Well, we'll admit both documents.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  I wanted to actually object to the admission of

 9     both of those documents, because the witness really didn't confirm

10     anything about the documents.  He discussed them, which the Prosecutor

11     asked a lot of questions about the two documents, but he himself didn't

12     confirm anything about the two documents.  So what you -- are you going

13     to put to the documents?

14             For example, the first document, the implication is that the VRS

15     wanted to hurry up with the exchange because they knew that the -- there

16     were no prisoners left in Srebrenica.  The people had all been killed.

17     That's a very serious implication for a document that this witness knew

18     nothing about and couldn't confirm.  And then even this -- this document

19     where there's the implication that the VRS might not register people

20     because they might also meet the same fate in Zepa as those in

21     Srebrenica.

22             So if you're going to -- if the Prosecution is going to make

23     those kind of arguments based on these documents, without this witness

24     having confirmed anything, that would really make a fair trial difficult

25     for Dr. Karadzic because he has nobody to ask about whether that was the

Page 25171

 1     intent of these documents and nobody to cross-examine on these documents.

 2     So I don't think that other than admitting them for the very limited

 3     purpose of understanding the context of the witness's answers, I don't

 4     think that they should be admitted for all purposes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, first of all, I take it there's no

 7     issue with respect the authenticity of these documents, and if there's no

 8     issue with respect the authenticity of these documents, I think the

 9     witness has more than passed the test of contextualising the contents of

10     these documents.

11             And -- sorry.  With respect the second document, Your Honour, the

12     witness has done more than effectively and actually contextualising the

13     documents.  He was able to make comments with respect to the orders

14     contained in these documents that I would suggest, Your Honour, go

15     directly -- directly related to the argument I made with respect these

16     two documents in front of you a couple of days ago.  They go directly to

17     the case of the fate of the prisoners in Srebrenica and to the cover-up

18     with respect to those prisoners.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I can just respond briefly, and

20     I agree that these documents are relevant, but in a trial like this with

21     documents of the kind of importance that the Prosecutor is putting on

22     them, they ought not to be admitted simply by discussing them with a

23     witness who knows nothing about the documents and nothing about the

24     events portrayed in them unless you only admit them for the limited

25     purpose of giving some context to the discussion between the Prosecution

Page 25172

 1     and the witness.  But to admit them and later let the Prosecutor argue

 2     from these documents the inferences that they want to and make -- have

 3     you make from them I think would be unfair to Dr. Karadzic.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, there's no issue here as to the

 6     authenticity and relevance of the documents.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  And although the witness did not confirm the

 9     content of the document itself, the witness was able to contextualise the

10     content of the document, and in addition, he gave some detailed

11     explanation as to the document.  For example, the meaning of "all-for-all

12     exchange."  So on that basis, we have sufficient basis to admit them all.

13     We'll give them numbers.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibits P4462 and 4463 respectively,

15     Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  That's the examination-in-chief, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Karadzic, we have about 20 minutes

19     for today.  Would you like to begin?

20             THE ACCUSED:  As you wish, Excellency.

21             JUDGE KWON:  If you can, I would prefer to continue, albeit for

22     20 minutes.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, General.

Page 25173

 1        A.   Good afternoon, Doctor.

 2        Q.   Since the last topic is something we remember the best, let's

 3     start from the end.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the last document

 5     back in e-court, please.  P4463.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   General, were you able to observe that in this war there were

 8     frequent deceits in the exchange of prisoners, and it was a sensitive

 9     issue?  In other words, did it cause much grief to the families

10     concerned?

11        A.   Yes, that and violations of truce and cease-fire.

12        Q.   In late 1994, you were in the area of Bihac, Grmec, et cetera.

13     Were some of our soldiers captured then, which was almost a year before

14     the 19th of July?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recall that even before the 19th of July,

17     1995, do you recall that there was a crisis in Gorazde in April 1994?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   We both need to pause between questions and answers because we

20     speak the same language.

21             So did the Serb side enumerate or list its POWs who had been held

22     for long periods, over a year, from Gorazde and slightly under one year

23     from Bihac?

24        A.   I know about Gorazde because my brother had spent there almost

25     two years, ten days short of two years.

Page 25174

 1        Q.   Thank you.  As for Bihac, you were in Jasenica at the forward

 2     command post?

 3        A.   Yes.  And while I was there, the exchange did not take place.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you this:  Am I correct in saying that an

 5     exchange one for one can easily be manipulated and that money became

 6     involved as well as causing much argument about why this person was

 7     exchanged and not another?  In such exchanges, people were exchanged

 8     based on their names as opposed to exchanges all for all.

 9        A.   There are no manipulations, and it's simpler to have an

10     all-for-all exchange.  When there is a one-for-one exchange, then people

11     are ranked according to certain lists.  That's why they kept my brother

12     for two years, so as to extract the most benefit from his capture because

13     I was a member of the VRS.

14        Q.   In other words, you presented an aggravating circumstance to his

15     imprisonment; correct?

16        A.   Unfortunately, it is.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Let me ask you this, General:  If someone offered an

18     all-for-all exchange, would they come up with such a proposal if they

19     knew they were short of prisoners?  Would it become obvious right away?

20        A.   Your conclusion is logical.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that throughout the war we always

22     proposed all-for-all exchanges, that everyone be exchanged at any given

23     point in time, including this instance in July 1995?

24        A.   At the time my brother was captured -- or, rather, exchanged,

25     that was an all-for-all exchange.  As for July 1995, I suppose what is

Page 25175

 1     presented is accurate.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Do you agree that the Serb prisoners from Lisaca,

 3     Majevica, and so on and so forth, were from the early spring offensive?

 4     In other words, they had been imprisoned for longer than the people in

 5     Srebrenica and Zepa?

 6        A.   Yes, by a few months.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  If translated correctly and if we say that they would

 8     be preserved and not held or kept, does it mean that they were supposed

 9     to be kept as a reserve in order to counter any deceit on the enemy side?

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The word "preserve" is the

11     term used by the accused.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It says here, "We'll keep them for

13     exchange."

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Again we have the word in the

15     response, actually.  We again have that "we will keep them."  I am asking

16     the interpreters to distinguish between "keep" and "hold."

17        Q.   Can you explain what "drzati" means as opposed to "cuvati"?

18        A.   "Cuvati" means to secure something in a particular place, to

19     perhaps be used later, such as savings, or to set something aside so that

20     it could be used in trade subsequently.  But "cuvati" means also "to

21     secure."

22        Q.   Something of value; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  At the time, which is two weeks after your arrival,

25     at the time of this report, did you have any knowledge of any prisoners

Page 25176

 1     missing?

 2        A.   No.

 3        Q.   Can you accept my position [as interpreted] that these reports

 4     suggest that something should be postponed because some people had been

 5     killed?

 6             We'll have an intervention for the transcript.  I didn't say "my

 7     position."  The position of the Prosecution.  Their position that these

 8     documents contain implicit -- an implicit meaning that some prisoners had

 9     been killed, and would this offer of an all-for-for-all exchange have

10     been made if it weren't so?

11        A.   It is illogical, and may affect many.  If someone was trying to

12     keep things hidden, I suppose things would be done differently.  This

13     document was send to five addressees.

14        Q.   Thank you.  When we were looking at P4458, would you agree that

15     interim combat reports are submitted much the same way as regular combat

16     reports, in writing?

17        A.   When I discussed the way of reporting and daily operations

18     reports, they can be regular and interim.  Regular reports are sent at a

19     certain time within any 24-hour period, and interim reports only when

20     there are emergency situations that need to be reported on immediately.

21        Q.   Thank you.  When you were in the Main Staff and before you went

22     on sick leave -- well, let's stick with June 1995.  Did any report arrive

23     from the units to the Main Staff which would address the issue of any

24     crimes and that such information would not have been forwarded to me?

25        A.   I have no such knowledge.  I don't know.  Such a report did not

Page 25177

 1     arrive.

 2        Q.   Those working on reports, would they have notified you, put you

 3     on alert that something of that sort came in?  And not only you but the

 4     whole Main Staff.

 5        A.   Probably.

 6        Q.   The witness did not say "probably" but "yes."  The witness said,

 7     "Yes."  Is that correct, General?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Please pause between

10     questions and answers.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Obradovic, if you do not pause between the

12     question and answer, interpreters are having difficulties to follow you.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  My mistake too.  I

15     believe it was not misinterpreted on purpose.  We'll try to do our best.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   General, do you agree that the president of the republic, in

18     addition to the army also administers 60-plus municipalities and is the

19     head of many civilian bodies, is engaged in diplomacy and negotiations,

20     and is quite a busy man in times of war?

21        A.   I suppose as much.

22        Q.   Do you agree that under such conditions the president has

23     advisors who read reports on his behalf and report to him on such matters

24     which require his attention or intervention?

25        A.   That would be the most rational way to organise and carry out

Page 25178

 1     their work.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  If in a report such as this one it is stated that

 3     combat activities are developing according to plan, is it something that

 4     should put my advisor on alert to inform you of this as if my action was

 5     required, or would this fall under any regular army activity in a time of

 6     war?

 7        A.   This formulation that things are going according to plan meant

 8     that there were no incidents and that there were no particular events

 9     that needed attention.

10        Q.   Do we agree that such activities developed according to plans

11     adopted at certain levels such as corps levels, or if it involved a

12     number of different corps, at the level of the Main Staff?

13        A.   Yes, because corps plans of action were approved by the commander

14     of the Main Staff, and they implemented them, unless when several corps

15     were included and their activities needed to be co-ordinated from a level

16     which is superior to all of the corps involved.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Since we are short of time, we'll round off this

18     topic.  At the time following your return and at the time of these

19     reports sent to the Main Staff and from the Main Staff to the president,

20     was there any talk of murders?  Was any -- was there any discussion or

21     mention of such things?

22        A.   Not in my presence.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, shall we adjourn for today here?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, a correction.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 25179

 1        Q.   I asked this:  You confirmed that in the written reports, there

 2     were no references to any such incidents.  What about oral communication

 3     between people?  Were there any such information -- was there any such

 4     information about things illegal?

 5        A.   I didn't hear of any, and I was in no position to hear.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  We can

 7     wrap things up for the day.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, I omitted to deal with associated

 9     exhibits.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, if it would save time, I'm

11     prepared -- I can compile a list overnight and send it to my colleague.

12     Administratively it might be a bit difficult.

13             JUDGE KWON:  There are several that have already been admitted

14     during the course of your examination-in-chief, but I wonder whether

15     there are any objections to any item of the associated exhibits.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, since the associated exhibits

17     contained items from Zepa that we don't want to have those admitted, but

18     in principle, ones given -- the ones that were an essential part of the

19     redacted version that's now been deposited, we won't have any objection

20     to those.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Ms. Edgerton, for your information, the

22     Chamber has concerns about 65 ter number 1917 and 23594 -- no, I'm sorry,

23     the first one is 1917, and second one is 23607, as to whether they form

24     indispensable and inseparable part of the transcript.  So the Chamber is

25     of the view that if you are minded to tender them, you need to deal with

Page 25180

 1     them with the witness.  So if you could come back tomorrow morning first

 2     thing with respect to this.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Of course.  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.

 5             Just a second.  Mr. Tieger -- no.

 6             Please have a nice evening, General Obradovic.

 7                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 6.28 p.m.,

 8                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 24th day

 9                           of February, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.