Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 30623

 1                           Thursday, 29 November 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 11.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Would the witness take the solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm saying that I will speak the

 9     truth and the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  ANGELINA PIKULIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, ma'am.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're welcome.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please make yourself comfortable.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

17     Good morning to all.

18                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Madam.  Could I kindly ask you to

20     tell us what your name is, and you can also tell us where and when you

21     were born.

22        A.   I am Angelina Pikulic.  I was born in Podlugovi.  I was born in

23     Podlugovi on the 28th of April, that's when I was born.  I was born in

24     1946.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Podlugovi is about 15 or 20 kilometres away from

Page 30624

 1     Sarajevo?

 2        A.   I know that.  I was born there.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I know that you know, but I wanted the participants

 4     in these proceedings to know that you are from the area.  Where did you

 5     live before the war?

 6        A.   I lived in Pofalici close to the tobacco factory.  Umska [phoen],

 7     that was the name of the street.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Where did you work?  Did you have a job before the

 9     war?

10        A.   Yes, in the government, the Executive Council.  I worked there as

11     a cleaner.

12        Q.   Could I kindly ask you to pause before you answer so that this

13     can be interpreted?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   You said the Executive Council.  Did you work in the Presidency

16     as well?

17        A.   Yes, in the Presidency too at Milenka Renovica's.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Did you work after the elections in 1990 and did you

19     know any of the office-holders?

20        A.   In 1990?  Yes, I knew our people who worked at the

21     Executive Council.  As for the others, I didn't.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Until when did you work at the Executive Council?

23        A.   Until 1979.  I got a disability pension because I had an accident

24     on the job.  I broke my spine.  I had an operation.

25        Q.   Thank you.  When the war broke out, did you remain in Sarajevo in

Page 30625

 1     the area under Muslim control, or rather, where were you when the war

 2     broke out and how long were you there?

 3        A.   In 1992 and 1991 -- well, that's it, 1991 and 1992.  And then war

 4     broke out.  They were preparing in 1991.  And then they started in 1992,

 5     in April.  My husband was out there in hospital.  I went to see him at

 6     the hospital twice and they put these things, whatever they're called.

 7     There was that military police of theirs.  And I couldn't get into the

 8     hospital to see my husband until I showed my ID.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  What happened in 1993?  Did you visit the Presidency

10     building and how come that happened?

11        A.   Well, I went to look for food.

12        Q.   Did you know someone at the Presidency and is that why you went

13     to the Presidency?

14        A.   Well, yes, I did and these people were not there at all.  I was

15     just looking for this man and they didn't answer and I was near the

16     reception desk, where the reception desk is at this Executive Council of

17     ours.  So I stood there and I heard this screaming in this one room and

18     in this room -- I mean, was it these Serbs of ours?  And I just heard

19     this screaming and this man opened the door and I just saw this man

20     naked, covered in blood.

21        Q.   Can you tell us exactly what it was that you saw?

22        A.   I saw this man's -- I heard this screaming, actually, and then

23     this soldier opened the door and then one of them was naked and then the

24     other one was covered with this green thing, whatever you call it, like a

25     cloth.  I don't know.

Page 30626

 1        Q.   Why was the one screaming and the other one naked?

 2        A.   I don't know.  As soon as I saw that, I started running away

 3     towards the mosque.  You know where that is, don't you?  You know where

 4     the Presidency is.  You know where the main entrance is, and then it goes

 5     towards the mosque, you know; and then by the military hospital and then

 6     I went to my home.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Were they alive?

 8        A.   I don't know.  I don't know whether they were alive.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Were you arrested or detained while you were --

10        A.   In Pofalici.  They made me go to Velesici.

11        Q.   So you were arrested.  And then you were kept where?

12        A.   In Velesici, closer to the station up there, the railway station.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, in light of the ruling the Chamber has

14     made in its decision, I would like you to move on to your next topic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it's linked to

16     what the lady saw there.  That is of relevance to us.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It has to do with paragraph 10, the

19     one that you have admitted.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   So what was it that you saw there while you were detained in

22     Velesici?  What did you hear?

23        A.   My husband, who was sick, was there.  He was released from

24     hospital.  They let him go on the 15th of April from Gezero [phoen].  Do

25     you know what that is?  It's that -- he was released from hospital

Page 30627

 1     because he had this thing called gangrene.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  What did you see or what did you hear as far as

 3     military affairs are concerned in Velesici?  Did you see something, did

 4     you hear something?

 5        A.   Well, they immediately took us - my husband and myself - they

 6     took us to this room to question both of us.  I saw that there were quite

 7     a few soldiers there.  I don't know.  I don't know.  I saw all of that in

 8     Velesici.  They were questioning my husband.  They were asking him

 9     something, and I was sitting there in this other chair and he was talking

10     to them and then this soldier got up and slapped him on the face twice.

11        Q.   Whose soldiers were they?

12        A.   Alija's, not mine.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Did you hear some shooting or something from there?

14        A.   Well, I did hear something, but of course we didn't dare go out,

15     I mean out of that house where I was.

16        Q.   Could you tell the Trial Chamber what it was that you heard and

17     what it was that was happening near that building?

18        A.   Well, these soldiers were there and the people who were there

19     too, Serbs.  There were Serbs there in Velesici.

20        Q.   Did you hear any kind of gun-fire?

21        A.   Well, yes, I did hear but we didn't dare go out.  I did not dare

22     go out.

23        Q.   What kind of weapons did you hear firing out there?

24        A.   I don't know.  Something sort of stronger.  Some kind of strong

25     shooting, strong.

Page 30628

 1        Q.   Stronger than a rifle?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Why did they arrest you?

 4        A.   Because I stayed in Pofalici, because there was this big attack.

 5     They attacked all of Pofalici from the tobacco factory and from the side

 6     of Velesici, Pofalici, Buca Potok, and Um.  Do you know where the relay

 7     is up there?  That's where it started.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Who attacked and when did this happen?

 9        A.   The 16th of May, May.

10        Q.   Who attacked?

11        A.   Well, this army, Alija's army.  I mean, I could not recognise

12     them.  They weren't our people.  I mean -- and there were some people who

13     were speaking some kind of foreign language.  I couldn't understand who

14     they were and what they were and ...

15        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any Serb soldiers in Pofalici?

16        A.   No.  It was only Serb people from the city of Sarajevo,

17     Cengic Villa, Pofalici, Marin Dvor, wherever Serbs were, they were

18     fleeing through Zuc.  They were escaping close to my house it was -- I

19     mean, they were running in their slippers and they just had their little

20     handbags.

21        Q.   You didn't manage to --

22        A.   My husband's relative and another lady relative and then there

23     was this other woman who was a Muslim, a relative also, who was married

24     to his son, and she stayed in my house.  And then when they barged in and

25     then she said, "Don't you go out, I will go out."  And she walked out

Page 30629

 1     with her 2-month-old baby like this and she said, "What do you want from

 2     me?"  We were in my basement in my house.  There were 15 of us in my

 3     house.

 4        Q.   Who were these 15 people who sought shelter there; right?

 5        A.   Well, these people from Velesici who fled to my house.  They're

 6     all from Velesici.  They fled to my house.  I just know my brother-in-law

 7     and that daughter-in-law of his and then their neighbours, I mean, they

 8     were all in my house.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Iodice.

10             MS. IODICE:  Your Honour, I'm afraid we're moving back to a topic

11     that was excluded by the order of the Trial Chamber.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, I would like to

15     establish whether this was a civilian settlement and whether there was a

16     military presence there and whether there were any military installations

17     there, military facilities, whether the witness could see something or

18     hear something.  We've heard about Velesici and now we're going to hear

19     about Pofalici.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand the last sentence of your

21     statement.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We heard that in Velesici there was

23     a military presence and that there were heavy calibres firing from

24     Velesici.  Now I'd like to ask what was in Pofalici near her house.

25     Obviously now we heard that she was saved by a Muslim lady who went out

Page 30630

 1     with her child and prevented them --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [No interpretation]

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear what the witness

 4     said now.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Without leading the witness, please put

 6     the question to the witness.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Did you see some army in Pofalici around your house?

10        A.   Well, yes, I did.  That time when they attacked they were all

11     around the house and up there, and then my husband when this first attack

12     took place, he escaped to the garage, and I stayed in the house with the

13     relatives that I told you about just now.  And then a soldier came to me

14     and said, "You come with me."  And I went along, above my house.  There

15     was this meadow up there, and he said, "Do you know these people who were

16     killed there?"  One man had his arm cut off and he said, "Gina, help me,

17     save me."  I couldn't even look and I felt sick and I turned my face away

18     from him and went to the house.  Do you want me to tell you who all the

19     people were who got killed there?

20        Q.   For the time being we're not going to deal with that, but it's a

21     good thing that you told us that.  Tell me, were there also some weapons,

22     artillery pieces, or armoured vehicles there?  What kind of military

23     things could you see around your house?

24        A.   Around my house I saw them walking towards houses with rifles,

25     and they were torching only Serb houses in Pofalici.

Page 30631

 1        Q.   Thank you.  What was in your garage?

 2        A.   The police was in my garage.

 3        Q.   What police was that?

 4        A.   Alija's police.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Was there any shooting coming from the garage?

 6        A.   Well, they opened fire and they wouldn't let me go out, and I was

 7     practically a hostage in my own home.  I didn't dare go out.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Do you have a vacation home?

 9        A.   Yes, I did.  It was beyond Hum where you could go.  There was

10     this street going to Kobilja Glava, that's where I had the vacation home.

11     I headed there with a friend of mine and another old woman who also

12     wanted to see her own weekend or vacation home.  And when we set off

13     there we saw a head on a pike, and there was no body.  We took a plastic

14     bag and buried that head near Jovo Jovic's at Tresnija.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Did you see any military things, any vehicles or

16     weapons, near your vacation home?

17        A.   Well, I did see some weapons, but I don't know whose it was.  I

18     just saw weapons a bit beyond my vacation home.  It was near Hum.

19        Q.   Thank you.  What did it look like?

20        A.   Well, it was amazing.  I mean, it was weird so we returned right

21     away, this woman, this lady, she helped me, she was a Catholic.  And she

22     said to me, "Come on, let's keep on moving, let's see Boza's house too."

23     Her house, Boza's house had been torched, so was mine, and then we went

24     back.  When I came home -- when we arrived home we entered -- we went

25     inside.  There was an elderly woman with us, 93 years old, Pava Kadic,

Page 30632

 1     and all these people who were there, they were elderly.  There were 13

 2     elderly people in my home and I was the 14th.  They -- they had brought

 3     them from this juvenile detention facility in Pofalici.

 4        Q.   What was there at this juvenile facility?

 5        A.   Well, it was a juvenile detention facility for young people, but

 6     all these elderly people they were detained there, all these people who

 7     were in my home had been detained there.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Now, there was also a youth centre in Pofalici,

 9     wasn't there?

10        A.   Well, yes.  Where IFOR was, some 10 metres away from my home,

11     they were there.  They distributed food.  One day I got some food, but

12     the following day I didn't.  And they told me when I headed there for the

13     second time with a pan, a pot, to get some food, they said to me, "No,

14     you cannot get anything, you are not entitled to it."  So I went back

15     home.  We had nothing to eat.  We just struggled to survive.  I had some

16     wheat, or rather, some cattle fodder that I tried to use to bake bread,

17     and that's what we ate.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Now in lines 5 and 6 this was not my question.  In

19     English it sounds as a leading question, whereas my question was an

20     open-ended question.

21             Now, did you see any high officials from Bosnia and Herzegovina

22     in your area?

23        A.   Yes, I saw Alija outside my door and he just said to his army,

24     "Do not mention how many people you've killed."

25        Q.   Which Alija are you referring to?

Page 30633

 1        A.   Well, Alija Izetbegovic, he was there.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I see that this Catholic woman helped you?

 3        A.   She was the one who helped me most.

 4        Q.   Please pause before you start answering.

 5             Now, were there also such cases, such instances, where the

 6     Muslims would help, that you lived together well and you helped each

 7     other out?

 8        A.   Yes, that's true.  There were Muslims that I knew who helped me.

 9     That's the truth.  I cannot not say that, not confirm that.  They helped

10     me.  They brought some sugar and oil.  Ramiz and his son defended us.

11     Now, he was killed and when he saw who had killed my son he came from my

12     back garden and he was calling me, "Gina, Gina," although my real name is

13     Angelina, he said, "Gina, Gina, my son was not killed by Chetniks, but

14     rather by Ustashas."  This was Ramiz.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what was the majority population in Pofalici?

16        A.   Serb.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you understand the fact that Ramiz's son was

18     killed, that he was killed because he helped Serbs?

19        A.   Well, yes, that's what his father said.  That's not what I said.

20     He came and said that.

21             MS. IODICE:  Objection.  We're again getting away from the topics

22     discussed in the statement.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let the evidence flow for some time.

24             I take it that you are coming to an end, Mr. Karadzic?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency.  Just one last

Page 30634

 1     question.

 2             Could we now have P9573, page 82 in e-court -- my apologies

 3     793 -- 973, P973, not 5.  P, Prosecution exhibit, yes.  Could we see page

 4     82, please.  Page 82 of this document, not the e-court page.  In other

 5     words, three pages further.  Thank you.  This is good.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mrs. Pikulic, I will read out to you now what an expert said here

 8     before this Court while testifying and then I will put a question to you.

 9     I will read this in English, unfortunately, but you will get the

10     interpretation.  Towards the top of the page, line 1.

11             [In English] "Karadzic wrote in an open letter to UN

12     Secretary-General Boutros Boutros-Ghali 'between 40.000 to 50.000 Serbs

13     are held as ethnic hostages and the constant daily attacks on Serbian

14     municipalities, Ilidza, Lukavica, Ilijas, Vogosca take place.'"

15             [Interpretation] Did you hear this interpreted that I read, that

16     in Sarajevo there were 40.000 to 50.000 Serbs who were ethnic hostages,

17     which meant that they were not allowed to leave their homes or move

18     around freely and cross over to the Serb territory, and is that true as

19     far as you know?

20             MS. IODICE:  [Overlapping speakers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how is she in a position to comment

22     upon an expert report?  That's already in our evidence.  I don't see the

23     point of putting that question to this witness, Mr. Karadzic.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think the point is that in

25     paragraph 14 of the indictment under (c)(i) in particular, Dr. Karadzic

Page 30635

 1     is charged with disseminating propaganda to -- false propaganda intended

 2     to engender fear and hatred of Bosnian Muslims or Croats by Bosnian

 3     Serbs, including that the Serbs were in danger of oppression including

 4     genocide, among other things.  So Mr. Donia testified that among the

 5     propaganda that Dr. Karadzic was promulgating was the fact that --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 7             Madam Pikulic, do you understand English?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly -- could you kindly put down your

10     headphones for some time.  Thank you.

11             Yes, Mr. Robinson, please continue.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. President.  So Dr. Donia testified

13     that among the propaganda that was made by Dr. Karadzic was that Serbs

14     were being held as ethnic hostages in Sarajevo.  And so Dr. Karadzic

15     would like to ask this witness who was in Sarajevo at the time whether or

16     not what he said was true or whether he was merely stating false

17     propaganda.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Yes, Ms. Iodice, I remember you were on your feet.  Would you

20     like to respond?

21             MS. IODICE:  Thank you, Your Honour.  First of all, this is again

22     a topic that the Trial Chamber excluded already; and second, I don't see

23     how this witness can confirm or deny such a broad statement.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Any specific response to Mr. Robinson's point?

25             MS. IODICE:  Yes, Your Honour, that this -- there's no notice

Page 30636

 1     that this witness would testify on this issue and the issues that this

 2     witness is supposed to testify have been identified by the Trial Chamber.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So is it your point that the accused is not entitled

 4     to put other relevant questions except for what is contained in her

 5     previous statement, Ms. Iodice?

 6             MS. IODICE:  That was my understanding from the Trial Chamber's

 7     order, that he was entitled to put questions regarding military targets

 8     in Pofalici and Velesici.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, two things.  Number one, we did

11     give notice to the Prosecution yesterday.  I sent them an e-mail telling

12     them that we would be using the specific exhibit 973, so they had notice

13     of it.  And secondly --

14             JUDGE KWON:  973 is a very voluminous --

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, it is.

16             JUDGE KWON:  -- document.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes it is.  And secondly, we understood that once

18     you've converted this witness into a viva voce witness there was

19     limitations of what was excluded but not necessarily what topics were to

20     be included in her testimony.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will allow the question.

23             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mrs. Pikulic, a few moments ago in one of your answers you said

Page 30637

 1     that you were not allowed to leave your home and that you were a hostage

 2     in our own house.  Now I've just read out to you that I wrote to the

 3     general secretary of the UN that there were 40.000 to 50.000 Serbs in

 4     Sarajevo who were held hostage who were not free.  Now, according to what

 5     you know, were there and how many of them any Serbs in Sarajevo and were

 6     they free to move around or leave Sarajevo?

 7        A.   Well, I first asked them to allow me to leave with my husband

 8     because my husband had been transferred to Kasindol where the hospital

 9     was.  So I asked them to let me go with him but they wouldn't let me, and

10     I remained with these old people and in 1993 he died.

11        Q.   Do you know anything else about any other Serbs?

12        A.   Well, there were our Serbs who weren't allowed to -- they

13     couldn't leave or go out anywhere unless they allowed them.  When they

14     said -- I wasn't even allowed to go fetch some water until they said you

15     can go and fetch water.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, what I said here, these things that I said, was

17     that propaganda?  Were those lies?  Or rather, can you tell me what kind

18     of position were they in and whether what I was saying was an

19     exaggeration?

20        A.   No, no --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, that's not a proper question for this

22     witness.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Were you allowed to attend the funeral?

Page 30638

 1        A.   No.  I begged them to let me go.  I didn't even know the date

 2     when he died.  I was just informed.  I received a notice from the

 3     Red Cross.  They said, "Your husband had died."  They wouldn't let me go

 4     to Saravica [phoen].  This was at Grbavica.  My husband was at his

 5     sister's at Grbavica.  So he was buried by -- only in the presence of my

 6     sister and her sister and --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness repeat the last part of her

 8     answer, please.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Pikulic, could you repeated your last part of

10     your answer.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What happened?  Well, I said what I

12     knew, just what I said a moment ago, that I wasn't allowed to attend my

13     husband's funeral.  The Red Cross came.  They informed me that my husband

14     had passed away.  They didn't let me go.  His sister buried him there and

15     it was only in 1994, on the 3rd of July, that I was able to get out.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Thank you.  But you said something about Grbavica, that someone

18     had been killed by a sniper?

19        A.   Yes, this was my brother-in-law, my sister's husband.  He was

20     killed by a sniper.

21        Q.   Whose sniper?  Was that ever determined?

22        A.   Well, they said it wasn't from the Serb side.  It was from

23     Alija's side.  If you know Grbavica, the main road leading to Grbavica,

24     this is where he was crossing going to the market and that's where he was

25     hit by a sniper.

Page 30639

 1        Q.   Was he a soldier or a civilian?

 2        A.   He was a civilian.  He was a retiree.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Mrs. Pikulic.  I have no further questions.

 4        A.   Never mind.  Very well.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Iodice.

 6                           Cross-examination by Ms. Iodice:

 7        Q.   Mrs. Pikulic?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   You don't have any military education; correct?

10        A.   No, I don't.  No, none of that.

11        Q.   And when you -- you said today that you couldn't leave your house

12     in Pofalici; correct?

13        A.   Yes, I could not leave.  I wasn't allowed to.  They didn't let

14     me.

15        Q.   And you -- while you were in your house in Pofalici you went to

16     the Presidency building; correct?

17        A.   Yes, I went to the Presidency building because that's where I

18     used to work.  I thought I will find my colleagues there and I went

19     looking for food.  We didn't have any food.

20        Q.   And so you were allowed to go to the Presidency building?

21        A.   Well, yes.  I asked them to let me go and they said, "Why do you

22     want to go there?"  And I said, "Well, I want to go to look for some

23     food.  I know those people because I used to work for them."

24        Q.   And in the Presidency building you saw -- you say you saw two men

25     and you didn't recognise any of them; right?

Page 30640

 1        A.   No, I didn't.  How could I?  When I saw someone screaming there

 2     and then this guy was opening the door and then I saw this one who was

 3     covered and the other one was naked.  When I saw that, I just fled and I

 4     started running towards the mosque and the hospital towards my house.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It didn't make it into the

 6     transcript:  When I saw that suffering.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, I felt sick.

 8             MS. IODICE:

 9        Q.   So you don't know what their ethnicity was or what had happened

10     to them; correct?

11        A.   No.  No, I didn't.  I didn't know anything.  I just saw that and

12     I fled that place.  I ran towards the mosque and this is the way to my

13     home in the direction of the military hospital.  So I walked all the way

14     to Pofalici because there was no transportation.  I had a lot of friends.

15     Everyone knew me.  I can't really say anything about who is what.  There

16     were good people and there were also others who were God forbid.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And you said today that while you were in Pofalici

18     you also went to see your house at -- your weekend house at Hum, correct,

19     in Kobilja Glava; is that right?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   Was Pofalici a residential area?

22        A.   Pofalici?  What do you mean was it ...?

23        Q.   There were houses.  People lived there; correct?  There were many

24     houses?

25        A.   Well, these were all houses where people lived, our Serb people

Page 30641

 1     and Muslim people and Catholic people, that's what it was.  There were

 2     Serbs and Catholics and Muslims, Bosniaks.  But the majority in Pofalici

 3     were Serbian.

 4        Q.   And Velesici was also a residential area - right? - with many

 5     apartment buildings and houses; correct?

 6        A.   Well, there too there were Serbs --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the rest.

 8             MS. IODICE:

 9        Q.   Yes, but my question was simply whether there were apartment

10     buildings and houses, only about whether it's a residential area.  Yes or

11     no?

12        A.   In Velesici there were buildings, there were houses, there were

13     Serb people, Catholic people, Bosniaks, Muslims.  It was all mixed.

14     There were people of all faiths.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And when you say that during your time in Velesici

16     that was about ten days that you spent there, you heard explosion,

17     noises.  You didn't see what was happening; correct?  You just heard the

18     noises?

19        A.   I only heard the noises and firing.  We weren't -- they didn't

20     let us leave our houses where we were.

21             MS. IODICE:  If you can bear with me for a second, Your Honour.

22                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

23             MS. IODICE:

24        Q.   Mrs. Pikulic in -- and this is page 10, line 20 of the transcript

25     today, you said that you saw Alija Izetbegovic outside your house and he

Page 30642

 1     mentioned --

 2        A.   Yes, I did.  I saw Alija right in front of my house and he said,

 3     "Don't say how many you've killed."  He said that at a place that was no

 4     more than 2 metres away from my house.

 5        Q.   And that's something that you would have remembered, right?  It's

 6     something very important that you could not forget; right?

 7        A.   I'll never forget that, never.  It's in my head.  I will always

 8     remember that.

 9        Q.   Now if we can call up 1D6037.  You gave a statement in October

10     1995 and you agree with me that your recollection of the events at that

11     time was much better than it is today; right?

12        A.   I gave a statement in 1995.

13        Q.   And that's the statement that you can see in front of you right

14     now.  You should be able to see it?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   In 1995 your memory of the events was fresher and was much better

17     than it is today; is that right?

18        A.   Well, yes.  Everything I've said I'm saying today as well.  What

19     I said in 1995 is what I'm saying today.  I am saying what it was that I

20     saw.  I cannot talk at all about what I have not seen.

21        Q.   Right.  But in this statement you did not mention this very

22     important detail of Alija Izetbegovic telling to someone not to mention

23     how many people they've killed, nowhere in this statement can we find any

24     mention of that detail, that you said you will never forget.

25        A.   I did see Mr. Izetbegovic in front of my door and that's what he

Page 30643

 1     said.  I'll never forget that.  That will remain in my head for as long

 2     as I live.

 3                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 4             MS. IODICE:

 5        Q.   Mrs. Pikulic, I understand that you're now saying that you saw

 6     Mr. Izetbegovic, but you do understand that you never mentioned this

 7     detail before?  This very important detail, you never mentioned it to

 8     anyone before - right? - when you were interviewed about the crimes; is

 9     that right?

10        A.   Yes, I said that earlier on too.

11        Q.   And in the two statements that you've given up to today, both the

12     1995 statement and the statement that you gave to the Defence and you

13     signed, you did not mention this?

14        A.   I mentioned that.  Alija Izetbegovic was in front of my house and

15     I will say that whenever.  That's the same statement that I made in 1995.

16     There's that statement of mine there.  Read it.  See what I said there.

17        Q.   I've read it and there's no mention, but I'll leave it at that.

18             MS. IODICE:  I have no further questions, Your Honours.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is there.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, you would agree that there is no

21     mention of Izetbegovic in this statement?

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  But I think perhaps the

23     statement --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  The statement --

Page 30644

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  We could all look at the statement, it should be

 3     admitted, I think, and then everybody can see it for themselves.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see a point of admitting this statement for

 5     that purpose.

 6             Yes, Mr. Karadzic -- I take it, Ms. Iodice, you're not tendering

 7     that statement, are you?

 8                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 9             MS. IODICE:  No, Your Honour, I'm not tendering the statement,

10     but I think we can agree with the Defence that there's no mention in that

11     statement and in the Defence statement that they prepared.

12             JUDGE KWON:  That was my understanding.

13             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just two questions,

15     Your Excellency.

16                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17        Q.   [Interpretation] Mrs. Pikulic, when did you go to the

18     Presidency -- or rather, when you went, was it necessary to ask for

19     permission?

20        A.   It wasn't because there was this doorman who worked there and he

21     recognised me.  He said, "What are you doing here?"  And I said, "I came

22     to get some food."  And he said, "You wait here by the reception desk,"

23     and the reception desk is nearby.  And then there was this other room

24     that was an office, and that's where women typed on typewriters and

25     that's where it was.  And then when I saw this man walking out -- I mean,

Page 30645

 1     I heard this screaming and I looked at all of that and --

 2        Q.   Thank you.  However, for you to go from your house to the

 3     Presidency, could you freely do that or did you need to get permission

 4     for that?

 5        A.   The policeman who was in front of my door in my garage, he's the

 6     one who had to allow me to do that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8        A.   They know that I worked there in that company, so they let me go.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  After you gave this statement in 1996, did you ever

10     read it again?  I mean, have you read it recently?

11        A.   1996?

12        Q.   The first statement you gave in 1995 or 1996.

13        A.   It was in 1995.  I got out in 1994 and I gave the statement in

14     1995.

15        Q.   After that, have you ever read it?

16        A.   What?  You mean my statement?  Yes.  I have this newspaper at

17     home, I have all of it, I should have brought that along, I really should

18     have, and you would have seen that that's exactly the way it was.  Well,

19     anyway, I can send it to you.  I can send you those newspapers and you

20     see for yourself.

21        Q.   Did they ask you anything about Alija Izetbegovic in 1995?

22        A.   Yes.  Yes.  They asked me from the very beginning, just as I told

23     you at -- like you're asking me now, but then you skipped certain things.

24     I mean, I don't understand any of this.  I just understand how it is that

25     I'm supposed to talk from the very beginning.  From 1992 until -- until

Page 30646

 1     the 16th of May -- I mean, I can tell you all of that straight-out of my

 2     head and you've heard some of it.

 3        Q.   Thank you, Madam.  It is our responsibility because we had to

 4     limit our questions.

 5        A.   Ah, all right.  But if you wish I can send you those newspapers.

 6     I have all of that.

 7        Q.   Just one question.  Did you mention Izetbegovic in the

 8     newspapers?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, I did.  And, if necessary, I'll send those newspapers

10     to the Court.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There you go, it is in the

14     newspapers.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Yes, thank you, Mrs. Pikulic.  That concludes your evidence at

17     the Tribunal.  On behalf of this Chamber I would like to thank you for

18     your coming to The Hague to give us.  Now you are free to go.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish you all the very best too,

20     and thank you for receiving me.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

24                           [Private session]

25   (redacted)

Page 30647

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  Back in open session.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours.  Just a moment of brief indulgence.

 7     Sorry, I'm over here because I don't have direct eye contact with

 8     Your Honours otherwise.  I'll be leading the next witness.  I wonder if

 9     we could just have about three minutes to switch places; I'll do it as

10     fast as I can.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you for the indulgence, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  So let me going back to the previous issue since

16     Ms. Iodice is here.  If the Defence does not agree that the previous

17     witness mentioned in her previous statement that Alija Izetbegovic was

18     mentioned in the statement, probably we need to admit that statement for

19     that purpose only.  But --

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we agree that it's not in the

21     statement.  So we would like to have -- we prefer to have the statement

22     admitted, obviously, but we're not going to dispute that it's not there.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I think that suffices.  Thank you.

24             Would the witness take the solemn declaration, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 30648

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  RADOJKA PANDUREVIC

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

 5             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 8        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Ms. Pandurevic.

 9        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

10        Q.   Right from the start I have to ask you to pause between questions

11     and answers, as we don't want to wear out our interpreters and we want to

12     have everything in the record, in the transcript.  Could we please both

13     have this in mind.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have 1D6703 in e-court.

15             Your Excellencies, does this mean that you will accept the news

16     article referred to by the witness if you found it to be relevant?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Let's deal with it when it arises, when it's

18     necessary.  Let's move on.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Ms. Pandurevic, did you provide a statement to the Defence team

22     and do you see it before you on the screen now?

23        A.   Yes, I did, and I accept it in full as it stands.

24        Q.   We have it here in English, but have you read it in the Serbian

25     language and does it accurately reflect what you wanted to say?

Page 30649

 1        A.   I read the statement, but it doesn't reflect accurately

 2     everything I said, as I can see that some portions are marked which were

 3     unacceptable and redacted.  Those paragraphs have to do with my stay in

 4     the Silos camp, which in turn would mean that I cannot convey the

 5     suffering I had undergone in the Silos camp.

 6        Q.   As for the rest, the part of the statement that was not redacted,

 7     is it true?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   Did you sign it?

10        A.   I did.

11        Q.   If I were to ask you today the same questions concerning the

12     unredacted portion, would your answers be the same in essence?

13        A.   They would.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I seek to tender the 65 ter

16     package -- sorry, the 92 ter package with five associated exhibits?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we are offering only the first five

18     associated exhibits on our Rule 92 ter listing because the others are

19     covered by paragraphs which are redacted.  And for these five we would

20     also ask for permission to add them to our 65 ter list because they were

21     not loaded into e-court at the time of the 65 ter list was due.

22             JUDGE KWON:  The last two of those five items were not

23     translated, are they?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  If they're not in e-court with translations then

25     they haven't been translated, so we would withdraw them at this time.

Page 30650

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I'm referring to 1D13010 and 1D13011.

 2                           [Defence counsel confer]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Which are dealt with in para 56.  If you'd like to

 4     deal with -- I would like the accused to deal with the witness live so

 5     that we can follow what it is about at least, but you said you are minded

 6     to withdraw that document?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  If you give me a moment to discuss with

 8     Dr. Karadzic.

 9                           [Defence counsel confer]

10             MR. ROBINSON:  We're going to check and see if we can release the

11     translations, see what the problem is.  But in the meantime perhaps he

12     can read the summary and we'll try to have that information after the

13     summary.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Ms. Edgerton?

15             MS. EDGERTON:  No.

16             JUDGE KWON:  First we will admit the redacted version of Rule 92

17     ter statement.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter 1D6703 will be

19     Exhibit D2490.

20             JUDGE KWON:  And then we'll admit the first three associated

21     exhibits.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter number 1D3007 will be

23     Exhibit D2491, 65 ter number 1D3008 will be Exhibit D2492, and 65 ter

24     number 1D3009 will be Exhibit D2493.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 30651

 1             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will read out a

 3     summary concerning the unredacted part of the witness's statement by

 4     Ms. Pandurevic in the English language.

 5             [In English] Radojka Pandurevic was a member of the SDS Hadzici

 6     Municipal Board and president of the SDS local board in Rastelica.  After

 7     the multi-party election in 1990 she was elected deputy in the Hadzici

 8     Municipal Assembly.  She regularly attended the sessions of the Hadzici

 9     SDS Municipal Board, but they never received orders from the SDS centre.

10     At the meetings they discussed the problems that were present and were

11     thinking about how to rescue their own families and property.

12             The head of the Hadzici SJB Fadil Covic, the Muslim, started a

13     mass mobilisation of the reserve police forces, mainly Muslims, without

14     the commander's knowledge.  Commander was a Serb.  At the first Assembly

15     meeting after these events, the Serbs asked to have the matter put on the

16     agenda in order to contest the mobilisation only of Muslims.  However,

17     the Muslims did not want to discuss this, and the Serbian deputies left

18     the Assembly.

19             After the Muslim attack and occupation of Bradina on 26th of May,

20     1992, and Bradina was a Serbian village, Muslims started arresting Serbs

21     in Rastelica and ordering them to surrender their weapons.

22     Radojka Pandurevic and her family felt unsafe and left to

23     Gornja Rastelica the same day, 28th of May, 1992.  Upon her arrival she

24     was taken to meet with Tufo Refik, a Muslim gentleman to give him

25     information about weapons.  After this, she and her daughter were taken

Page 30652

 1     to the woods and the Muslims threatened the locals hiding there to

 2     surrender.  They were then taken to the social centre and the Silos in

 3     Tarcin.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, does that not cover the redacted part?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's but one sentence,

 6     Your Excellency, to simply see what she had gone through rather than

 7     going into what her treatment was at the camp.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's -- there's no point if it is not in the

 9     evidence.  Please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED:  On 26th of January, 1996, after almost four years

11     of detention, she was taken out from the Silos camp by the members of the

12     international police and taken to her mother's.

13             MS. EDGERTON:  Um, Your Honour, that information was also

14     redacted.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind that your summary which you read

16     out is not a part of evidence at all.  So bear that in mind.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I wanted to ask

18     Madam about things that are in the indictment, and for that I need to

19     know and demonstrate where she was and how she knew about that, let alone

20     the fact that I am of the opinion that --

21             JUDGE KWON:  If it is necessary, Mr. Karadzic and it is not

22     covered by the remainder of her statement, i.e., that the part of the

23     statement which is not redacted, then you need -- you should put that

24     question to the witness live.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will correct that

Page 30653

 1     immediately.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Ms. Pandurevic, before 1990 you were not involved in politics,

 4     were you?

 5        A.   I was not.

 6        Q.   What was the reason for you entering politics?

 7        A.   As you well know, in early 1990 the Muslim party, SDA, was

 8     established.  Immediately following their establishment, the HDZ was

 9     established with its seat in Tarcin.  They had a church there and there

10     were many Croats living there.  The last party to be established was the

11     Serb Democratic Party which was in September 1990.  After the party was

12     established, a pre-electoral campaign took off and thus lists were

13     drafted for the Municipal Assembly of Hadzici municipality.

14             As the deputies lists were being created for the

15     Hadzici Municipal Assembly, my colleagues, Muslims, started driving

16     around the village in their vehicles, sporting the SDA flag.  On the Serb

17     weekend homes they painted graffiti with the SDA signs and the crescent

18     moon.  When my husband and I became married, we came to Rastica, to my

19     father-in-law's property, and we were not well received by our

20     neighbours, as we were both employed and were an educated couple.

21             My father-in-law's family suffered a lot during World War II and

22     he's the only one who survived it because he happened not to be at home.

23     It happened between the 4th and 5th of April, 1945.  Only another sister

24     of his survived.  She was wounded and taken by Germans to Mostar.  He

25     found her two years later.  Because of all these events, there was

Page 30654

 1     concern that one morning my house will also be painted with SDA signs.

 2     That's why I went to Hadzici to the seat of the SDS.  Although I had only

 3     been a sympathiser up until then, I asked to become a member and to be

 4     placed on a list of deputies to be elected to the Hadzici Municipal

 5     Assembly.  I wanted to be among the first people on the list so that I

 6     would make sure I became a deputy in order to be part of the executive

 7     branch.

 8             Many of my neighbours who ran for deputies and were on the SDA

 9     list were well-known criminals with police files.  The very idea that

10     they would participate in the work of the executive branch thus deciding

11     on the quality of my life and the life of my fellow citizens in the

12     municipality and to make important decisions made me to take this action.

13     I wanted to sit alongside those people in the Municipal Assembly in order

14     to hear what they had to say so that I would be able to react at any

15     given point in time.  That was the reason why I joined the SDS.

16             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, if I may.

17             Your Honours, the Prosecution has had no notice of this evidence

18     nor in your ruling yesterday was Dr. Karadzic or was there any

19     indication, as I read the ruling, that Dr. Karadzic would be allowed to

20     lead evidence viva voce on matters relevant to the indictment otherwise.

21                           [Trial Chamber confers]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you are well aware of the Court's

23     ruling and I believe that you can monitor your and control your

24     examination-in-chief.  Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, Your Honour, but I also

Page 30655

 1     understand the witness who suffered and wanted to discuss that.  I was

 2     only interested in her reasons for joining politics, since she was an

 3     educated person.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  Well, Dr. Karadzic, everybody understands that

 5     where an individual has suffered egregiously that at some point they like

 6     to have a hearing as to that.  But the reality of the position in which

 7     we find ourselves is this is not the right forum for that and accordingly

 8     the limitations have been put on.  This is not out of a lack of sympathy

 9     for the witness; it's to expedite the proceeding.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   In the briefest possible terms, can you tell us what was the

13     basis for your arrest?

14        A.   The basis for my arrest was my work in the parliament -- or

15     actually in the Municipal Assembly in Hadzici, since I was an SDS deputy

16     and because I was a Serb.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Were there other women who were arrested and what was

18     their ethnicity?  Also, why were they arrested?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  I'm sorry --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, again --

21             MS. EDGERTON:  -- Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Again, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you ever see me in Hadzici?  Did I come to Hadzici while you

Page 30656

 1     were there?

 2        A.   No, I never saw you in Hadzici.  I only saw you once in passing

 3     during the founding Assembly and today I see you for the second time.

 4        Q.   The founding Assembly where?

 5        A.   In Sarajevo, in Skenderija.

 6        Q.   When?

 7        A.   The 12th of July, 1990.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D6702.

10     Your Excellencies, I was told that we have been provided with the

11     translations of these two documents, they have been sent by e-mail.  By

12     your leave perhaps they can be placed in e-court.  First we would need

13     the technician to upload it into e-court, as my case manager does not

14     have direct access.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Ms. Pandurevic, what is this?  What is the letter or the note on

17     the screen?

18        A.   It is a letter by Ms. Elisabeth Rehn who answered my daughter,

19     Aleksandra.  She had met with her in early January 1996.  My daughter,

20     Aleksandra, asked her to intervene with the BH authorities, with

21     Alija Izetbegovic specifically, to have the remaining 43 Serbs released

22     who were kept in the Silos camp.  She promised she would try to do so;

23     however, I happened to have been released before Ms. Rehn arrived in

24     Sarajevo.

25        Q.   Which parts of Hadzici municipality was -- were controlled by the

Page 30657

 1     Serb side and which parts were controlled by the Muslim side and what was

 2     the proportion in terms of size?

 3        A.   The Serb side controlled part of Hadzici municipality between

 4     Ilidza and the quarry in Hadzici.  From that point and Dazaric [phoen]

 5     and Tarcin, all of the surrounding villages were controlled by the Muslim

 6     side.

 7        Q.   Did the Serbs control some Muslim settlements or, to put it in

 8     these terms, did the armies control their respective territories?

 9        A.   The Muslims predominantly controlled the territory inhabited by

10     Muslims, and the Serbs controlled the centre of Hadzici and the nearby

11     villages which were populated by Serbs for the most part.

12        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

13             JUDGE KWON:  How about the -- those two untranslated documents?

14     Yes, Mr. Robinson.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, they're received and sent by

16     e-mail but not uploaded in e-court yet.  So if you -- I'll leave it to

17     Dr. Karadzic.  My recommendation has been not to pursue it and take our

18     time with that, but he may feel differently.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I get -- I'll turn to you, Ms. Edgerton.

20     1D13010 and 11 which are a part of the associated exhibits without

21     English translation.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  I've been looking at those, Your Honours, and

23     frankly I think the exhibits -- or potential exhibits actually speak for

24     themselves and I don't quite find them to be what the witness alleges

25     them to be, so I would be uncomfortable dealing with them in an

Page 30658

 1     untranslated manner.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No, you didn't receive English translation?

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, no.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We have received it by e-mail but

 5     our ...

 6                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  I've just been told, Your Honours -- oh, I'm

 8     sorry.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I think you were excluded in the recipients.  It

10     must be received -- must have been received by other members of the OTP.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, if I was to look at my e-mail, but I don't

12     watch it while I'm trying to listen to the witness, I might have seen

13     them eventually from Mr. Reid.  If you want them dealt with now, I'm

14     happy to take a couple of minutes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, we'll cover that at the end of the evidence of

16     this witness.

17             So you don't have any further questions for the witness?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Your Honour.  Should we also

19     tender Ms. Elisabeth Rehn's letter since she was a prominent figure?  She

20     tried to intervene after the war to have those people released.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, we'll admit it.

22             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

23             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, given that Your Honour's have already ruled,

24     I'd still like to make the comment that I find the content of this letter

25     and the witness's comments thereon to be effectively almost a backdoor

Page 30659

 1     way of getting around Your Honour's earlier ruling with respect to the

 2     redactions.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I thought you were not objecting to it.

 4     I'll consult my colleagues.

 5                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I was too quick and then I -- the Chamber will not

 7     receive it based upon the ruling we gave previously.

 8             Given the time, we'll continue after the break, but Ms. --

 9     Mrs. Pandurevic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief was admitted

10     in most part by way of written evidence in lieu of your oral testimony.

11     You will now be cross-examined by the Prosecution after the break.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why cannot the addition, my oral

13     addition, to the statement be admitted as well?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it is already transcribed.  It is in the

15     evidence.

16             We'll have a break for an hour and resume at 1.30.

17                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.29 p.m.

18                           --- On resuming at 1.31 p.m.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Have the parties resolved the issue with respect to

20     those two associated exhibits?  Otherwise, I would like you --

21     Mr. Karadzic to deal with viva voce with the witness if he's minded to

22     tender those two documents.  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I don't know what the

24     Prosecutor's position is, but they did make it into e-court now so that

25     we do have English translations in e-court and we'll be guided by whether

Page 30660

 1     the Prosecution will accept that or whether they wish to hear viva voce

 2     testimony about it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber was unable to discern whether it

 4     constituted inseparable and indispensable part of the statement because

 5     we couldn't read it.  But for the sake of time I'll turn to Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Um, now having read the documents, I am satisfied

 7     that the documents do speak for themselves, and for that reason I won't

 8     object to their admission.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Given the circumstances, we'll admit those two

10     documents into evidence and give the numbers.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter number 13010 will be

12     Exhibit D2494 and 65 ter number 13011 will be Exhibit D2495.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

15                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

16        Q.   Hello, Mrs. Pandurevic.

17        A.   Good afternoon, Madam Prosecutor.

18        Q.   Thank you.  So I take it you can hear me in a language you

19     understand?

20        A.   Yes, I can.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  Just one question of Your Honours before I go any

22     further.  I haven't received any guidance from Your Honours on the issue

23     of time that I have available.  Just for my own sake and planning, I

24     wonder if I could hear your guidance?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Were you not informed of the amount of time?  How

Page 30661

 1     long would you need?

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  45 minutes or less.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I could -- I take it you could finish it in half an

 4     hour.

 5             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Mrs. Pandurevic, I'd like to ask you some questions based on the

 7     statement that you gave, but just before I do that I wonder if you could

 8     confirm for us that you were present at the constitutive meeting of the

 9     Assembly of the Serbian Municipality of Hadzici on 11 April 1992?

10        A.   No, I was not present because that Assembly was held in the

11     afternoon hours and there were already concerns about me having to travel

12     because I live some 10 kilometres away from the Hadzici municipality.

13     And for security reasons, because every day I would have to go through

14     four check-points to get to Hadzici, I did not dare, being a woman, to go

15     so late in such late afternoon to attend the Constituent Assembly, but I

16     do know what was happening there, which organs were elected, and who was

17     elected.

18        Q.   Maybe on that point we could have a look at a document.  It's

19     P2297.  It's the minutes of the meeting of that Assembly.  And if -- just

20     take a few minutes and look at this because it's handwritten.  And

21     they're dated on 11 April 1992.

22             MS. EDGERTON:  And if we could go over to English page 3 and

23     B/C/S page 4.  And that page is a list of those present at the Assembly

24     of the Serbian People of Hadzici.

25        Q.   Now, do you see your name in the column that's in -- the page

Page 30662

 1     that's in your language on the left-hand column at number 18, your name

 2     and your signature?

 3        A.   Yes, my printed first and last name, that's a list of Assemblymen

 4     but I don't see that I've signed it.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Let's collapse the English page and --

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that because I

 7     know for certain that I wasn't present.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Do you see number 18?  We can only see the 8.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, I see it.  I see 8 and I see

10     my first and last name, but I was not present at this constitutive

11     Assembly.  Perhaps I did affix my signature later on for some other

12     reasons because they were necessary, but I did not attend, I know for

13     sure, because it was held in the afternoon.  But yes, this is my

14     signature.

15             MS. EDGERTON:

16        Q.   So you having recognised your signature then, we can move on.

17     Just another question that perhaps you can confirm to me.  Can you

18     confirm that you were captured on 28 May 1992?  Just a yes or no as to

19     the date would be fine?

20        A.   Yes, the 28th of May, 1992.

21        Q.   So --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just request about this first

23     document where it says that this was the Constituent Assembly, because it

24     may have been one of the assemblies because it didn't say there that this

25     was a list of those present at the Constituent Assembly could we just see

Page 30663

 1     the first page, please.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  The source for my assertion that it was the

 4     Constituent Assembly comes from the evidence of Mr. Glavas before

 5     Your Honours and if I can -- I can either move on and give Your Honours

 6     the exhibit number for his written evidence later or I can take a couple

 7     of moments and give you that number now.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I think it would suffice to provide that information

 9     outside the courtroom to the Defence.  Let's move on.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

11        Q.   So now in your statement at paragraph 63, referring to the

12     formation of the Crisis Staff, are we meant to understand then that the

13     Crisis Staff of the Serbian municipality of Hadzici had not been formed

14     before 28 May 1992?

15        A.   When the Crisis Staff of the Serbian Municipality of Hadzici, I

16     don't know, because I could not go to the Serb part of the Hadzici

17     municipality after the 4th of May because the war had already broken out

18     and it wasn't safe.  So the 4th of May was the last day when I was

19     actually in Hadzici.

20        Q.   Ah, so when you said in your statement that you -- that it hadn't

21     been formed before the 28th of May, you actually meant to say you didn't

22     know when it was formed; is that correct ?

23        A.   I don't know.  No, I don't know when exactly it was established,

24     but I assume that by the time I was arrested on the 28th of May it hadn't

25     been established.  And the 4th of May was the last day when I was in

Page 30664

 1     the -- on the territory of the municipality of Hadzici.

 2        Q.   Okay.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Let's have a look at D1084.

 4        Q.   It's a document dated 26th of May, 1992, signed by Ratko Radic.

 5     You know who Ratko Radic is, Mrs. Pandurevic?

 6        A.   Ratko Radic was the president of the SDS and later on, after the

 7     20th or the 28th - I'm not sure of the date -- because up until I was

 8     arrested Ratko Radic was not the president of the Municipal Assembly nor

 9     was he the president of the Crisis Staff, but I do know that he was the

10     chairman of the Serbian Democratic Party.  And I don't know.  I didn't

11     even know who the members of the Crisis Staff were because I had already

12     been cut off from the headquarters, the municipality, the party, and so

13     on.  So I don't know these things.  The communications did not exist.

14        Q.   So if I could just get you to have a look at this document which

15     is signed by Ratko Radic as president of the Crisis Staff.  And at the

16     very top line of the document reads:

17             "At a meeting of the Hadzici Serb Municipality Crisis Staff we

18     pass the following decisions ..."

19             And note that the document is dated 28th -- pardon me, 26th May,

20     1992.  You would concede then that the -- on the basis of this document

21     it looks as though the Crisis Staff was functioning by the date of your

22     arrest?

23        A.   I don't know anything about that because there was no

24     communication between me and the municipality of Hadzici or the party, so

25     I wouldn't know anything about that.

Page 30665

 1        Q.   All right.  Now, also in your statement at paragraph 61, and it's

 2     in regard to the activity of the SDS Municipal Board for Hadzici, you

 3     said:

 4             "I claim with full responsibility we never received any orders

 5     from the top, the SDS centre ..."

 6             And then you said Ratko Radic never told you about anything being

 7     an order from the SDS Main Board or President Karadzic and that you made

 8     all the decisions on your own.  Now, do you mean by saying that to

 9     suggest that the SDS party structure was not hierarchical?

10        A.   Could you please just clarify a bit?

11        Q.   When you say you got no orders from the top, do you mean to

12     suggest that the SDS party structure was something other than

13     hierarchical, that it didn't have a hierarchical structure?

14        A.   There was no need for any orders because at the time the party

15     was busy with being established, the establishment of lists of candidates

16     and Assemblymen, and busy organising the structure of government at the

17     period.  Ratko Radic did have communications.  He contacted the main

18     headquarters of the Serbian Democratic Party, but he never brought back

19     with him any orders or anything of that sort.  We dealt with our own

20     problems in the Hadzici municipality because we had major problems from

21     the very first days of the establishment of the municipality with the

22     functioning of the organs, the political organs.  So there was no need to

23     get any orders.  These were local issues that were dealt with.

24        Q.   So you're not disputing that the party had a hierarchical

25     structure with Dr. Karadzic at the top?

Page 30666

 1        A.   Well, as far as I know, the contacts did exist but this was not

 2     in any sense a situation where orders would be issued nor were there any

 3     obligations that someone would issue orders.  Strictly speaking,

 4     absolutely not, and especially President Karadzic never issued any orders

 5     either written or signed or anything of that sort -- at least I never saw

 6     it.

 7        Q.   Well, I'd like to go to another document.  If you tell me you'd

 8     like to see it I'll have it called up for you.  For the record, it's

 9     P961, the minutes of the -- pardon me, the stenograph of the Assembly of

10     the Serbian People on 24 March, 1992, English page 22, paragraph 5, and

11     B/C/S page 39, paragraph 2.  I'm a bit confused about this assertion

12     because on that day, 24 March, Dr. Karadzic told the delegates the

13     following.  He said:

14             "We have a legal basis on the Law on Internal Affairs and we also

15     have the insignia and at a desired moment, and this will be very soon, we

16     can form whatever we want.  There are reasons why this could happen in

17     two or three days.  Such are the forecasts but I can't tell you the

18     reasons now.  At that moment, all the Serbian municipalities, both the

19     old ones and the newly established ones, would literally assume control

20     of the entire territory of the municipality concerned."

21             And further he says then:

22             "At a given moment in the next three or four days there will be a

23     single method used and you will be able to apply it in the municipalities

24     you represent, including both things that must be done as well as how to

25     do them, how to separate the police force, take the resources that belong

Page 30667

 1     to the Serbian people, and take command."

 2             So now, Mrs. Pandurevic, actually it looks like that, in fact,

 3     the very act that we talked about, the formation of the Assembly of

 4     Serbian people of Hadzici, a very significant act for the Serbian people

 5     there, wasn't an autonomous decision.  That was a decision taken by the

 6     Serbian people according to a directive by Dr. Karadzic in the SDS.

 7     Wouldn't you agree?

 8        A.   Could you please just clarify what date, on what May was it that

 9     Dr. Karadzic issued that order?

10        Q.   This was what Dr. Karadzic said to delegates in the Assembly of

11     Serbian People on 24 March 1992.

12        A.   The deputies of the Hadzici Municipal Assembly had already as of

13     October 1992 departed from the Municipal Assembly of Hadzici and its work

14     because of the reports we received on the work of the police because of

15     their disagreement with the replacement of all the managers in schools,

16     companies, and medical centres in Hadzici, especially so because the

17     municipality was not really authorised to replace people in certain

18     organisations because they were under the management of the town itself,

19     not the municipality.  And because we couldn't get that information from

20     the reserve force, police force, and we could not get their -- the

21     decision saying that there was an agreement on replacing all of these

22     leading people, there was a man who worked --

23        Q.   Mrs. Pandurevic --

24        A.   -- on military records in the municipality -- well, I'm trying to

25     explain to you that it had already been a long time that we had stopped

Page 30668

 1     this work and that we had established a council of sorts where we tried

 2     to see what we were to do next, and then we would try to explain to the

 3     Serb people by placing a notice in the paper on what it was that we were

 4     going to do.

 5        Q.   When did the Assembly of the Serbian Municipality of Hadzici get

 6     formed then?

 7        A.   It was established in 1991, at the end of 1991, and it ceased to

 8     exist in -- or actually, it ceased to exist, it stopped working in

 9     October 1991, so it was very brief period that it was operational.

10     Sometime between December 1990 up until early October 1991.

11        Q.   You're saying that the Assembly of the Serbian Municipality of

12     Hadzici stopped functioning in October 1991?  That's what I understood

13     from the interpretation.

14        A.   No, not the Serb municipality, but the Hadzici municipality of

15     Bosnia and Herzegovina, of the then-Bosnia and Herzegovina.

16        Q.   My question is about --

17        A.   And the Serbian Municipality of Hadzici had not been established

18     yet.  As you may know, it was only established sometime in April 1992.

19     In other words, five months after the work of the Municipal Assembly of

20     Hadzici ceased to function, of the former BH.

21        Q.   And two weeks after Dr. Karadzic made that statement at the

22     Bosnian Serb Assembly?

23        A.   I don't remember that statement and I did not take part in the

24     establishment of this Serb municipality.  As you know, I could not attend

25     because of the trip that I had to make.

Page 30669

 1        Q.   Thank you.  I'm just going to go over to one last area.  You

 2     refer in your statement at paragraph 65 to Muslims leaving Hadzici in the

 3     direction of Kiseljak because they were afraid of Serbian revenge.  And

 4     you say you heard that from some friends.  Did you hear that from Muslim

 5     friends?

 6        A.   Both from Muslim and from Serb friends because horrible things

 7     were happening in Tarcin camp and those colleagues of theirs, their

 8     countrymen, they did those things to us, Serbs.  And for this reason --

 9        Q.   Now, Mrs. Pandurevic --

10        A.   -- they didn't feel safe and they tried to cross over.

11        Q.   -- I just you asked the question if you heard it from Muslim

12     friends and you gave your answer.  Thank you.

13             Now, is your evidence then, based on what you said in your

14     statement, that Muslims left Hadzici town spontaneously, of their own

15     volition?

16        A.   Yes, in the same way that Serbs, women and children, left Hadzici

17     and Tarcinovici when the men were arrested on their own.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A reply of the witness is missing.

19     After the question whether she had heard this from her Muslim friends,

20     the witness said "yes," but that did not make it into the transcript.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

22             MS. EDGERTON:

23        Q.   So, Mrs. Pandurevic, this Chamber has received evidence that

24     between May 25th and June 22nd, 1992, just over 280 non-Serbs had been

25     taken by Serb forces from their homes around the town of Hadzici and

Page 30670

 1     detained in the sports centre.  And that's found at P2403, paragraph 64,

 2     at page 12.  And on 22 June they were taken from there and from another

 3     location under the garage municipality building on four buses and taken

 4     out of Hadzici and via Ilidza to Lukavica barracks and then to Kula

 5     prison.  And that's found also at P2403, paragraphs 65 to 94.  So does

 6     that sound like something spontaneous to you?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say a remark here.  This

 8     is misleading.  We heard from Witness Music that they had not been

 9     detained but that they were actually returned from unsuccessful exchanges

10     of prisoners.  And the witness is here now in a position to talk or state

11     things about something that wasn't properly interpreted; and secondly, at

12     the time she was in prison.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That's the point you can put to the witness in your

14     re-examination, but I didn't follow whether it's Music or not.  She

15     referred to P2403.

16             Yes, Ms. Edgerton, if you could clarify.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  That is the written evidence of the gentleman by

18     the name Dr. Karadzic refers to, and the story of failed exchanges that

19     Dr. Karadzic also refers to I believe the evidence will show post-dates

20     that.  But it's a matter for him to raise in his re-direct should he so

21     choose.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So for the benefit of the witness, could you repeat

23     your question or put your question again.

24             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, thank you.  I'll do that again.

25        Q.   So, Mrs. Pandurevic, this Chamber has received evidence that

Page 30671

 1     between May 25th and 22 June 1992 there came to be more than 280, just

 2     over 280, non-Serbs who had been progressively taken by Serbian forces

 3     from their homes surrounding the town of Hadzici and detained in the

 4     sports centre.  And then they've also heard that on 22 June 1992 these

 5     people were taken from there and from the garage under the municipality

 6     building on four buses out of Hadzici, and they went via Ilidza to

 7     Lukavica barracks and then to Kula prison, and the source for that is

 8     P2403.  And my question is quite simple:  Based on your previous answer,

 9     does that sound like non-Serbs were leaving Hadzici spontaneously to you?

10        A.   All communications were interrupted on the 10th of May from

11     Hadzici to Tarcin.  So as for these things that happened and these things

12     that happened in Hadzici, I don't know about any of that.  I never knew

13     about any of that.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Your indulgence for just a few seconds.

15                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

16             MS. EDGERTON:  That will be everything, Your Honour.  I have

17     nothing further.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just two brief questions,

20     Excellency.

21                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Mrs. Pandurevic, were you aware of the fact that

23     the 18th of March the Lisbon Agreement had been drafted with the

24     Cutileiro Plan as a basis?

25        A.   President, it was such a long time ago, and I really cannot

Page 30672

 1     remember now.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Muslims have their own municipality of

 3     Hadzici in the areas that they controlled?

 4        A.   Yes.  They had established it beforehand.  Not immediately after

 5     the Municipal Assembly ceased to function, I mean the former legal one in

 6     BH.  They established some kind of crisis body in order to be able to

 7     make decisions and then they established the Muslim municipality of

 8     Hadzici.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  When was it that they established this crisis body,

10     which year, do you remember?

11        A.   Soon.  In October 1991 we Serbs left the parliament and perhaps

12     in a month or in a month and a half they established this Crisis Staff,

13     and then they invited other persons who were not members of the SDA to

14     attend sessions of this Crisis Staff so that they could reach decisions.

15     And the secretary of the SDS went to one of these sessions and he was

16     attacked and they said, "What do you want here?  Go to your

17     'drozgometva' and look for your Chetniks there."  After that, no one ever

18     went again.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You said a moment ago that the appointment of school

20     principals and directors of health centres was something that the town

21     was in charge of.  Can you explain that?  I see how it was interpreted

22     here as "town."

23        A.   It was the city of Sarajevo that consisted of 10 or 11

24     municipalities.  I can no longer remember.  In some of the powers from

25     the local communes were regulated by the city itself, so that was

Page 30673

 1     secondary schools, universities, health centres, and so on.  So all 10 or

 2     11 municipalities that made up the city of Sarajevo, it was the city or

 3     town of Sarajevo that decided about school principals, directors of

 4     health centres, and so on.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And what was this thing that happened in Hadzici?

 6        A.   Well, the SDA asked that all the persons who were office-holders

 7     before the elections to be replaced, dismissed, and then the Assemblymen

 8     from the socialist party or whatever it was called did not agree to that,

 9     to change all the persons who were in important positions.

10        Q.   So did these replacements take place and what was the essence?

11        A.   The essence was appointing new people of the SDA or the SDS.  The

12     SDS did not accept this and that is one of the reasons why we left the

13     Assembly and no longer took part in its work.

14        Q.   So some from the SDS would be appointed too, but the SDS did not

15     accept that; right?

16        A.   We did not accept to have the people who were in important

17     positions then replaced because that would mean that all school

18     principals would be dismissed, all directors of companies, of health

19     centres, and so on, and the SDS did not accept that.

20        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions.

21             MS. EDGERTON:  And that last question from Dr. Karadzic was

22     really leading.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very much so.

24             Well, that --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  I just repeated what

Page 30674

 1     the witness herself said in the answer just before that in order to be

 2     sure.  There was no intention on my part.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mrs. Pandurevic.  On

 4     behalf of the Chamber I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague

 5     to give it.  Now you are free to go.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, may I say something?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Usually we do not hear from the witness.  I will

 8     have a word with my colleagues.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE KWON:  At this time the Chamber will not entertain your

11     submission.  Thank you for your understanding.

12                           [The witness withdrew]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear about the next witness's scheduling?

14             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  The next witness is

16     Nikola Mijatovic and we are prepared to conduct his direct examination at

17     this time.  We understand that the Prosecution would like to have until

18     tomorrow to begin the cross-examination because of late disclosure of

19     some documents and his revised statement which was not provided to them

20     within the 48 hours that would allow him to testify today.  We had

21     anticipated he would be testifying tomorrow but with the exclusion of

22     Mr. -- of one witness and reduction of others, his testimony is being

23     accelerated.  So we don't have any objection to the Prosecution

24     conducting their cross-examination tomorrow.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And after Mijatovic?

Page 30675

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  He's the last witness that we have for this week.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  On a separate note, Mr. Robinson, we admitted two

 4     associated exhibits that were not translated at the time of the filing on

 5     an exceptional basis.  But in the future, starting from the next witness,

 6     the Chamber will not admit as associated exhibits untranslated documents

 7     because it's simply unable to find whether it constitute indispensable or

 8     inseparable part of the statement.  So therefore, if the accused wishes

 9     to tender those documents he should lead -- lie with the witness.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  I couldn't agree with you more.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             And could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

13                           [Private session]

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 30676

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Let's bring in the witness.

 9             Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honour, if I may, just before we do that, by

11     my best reckoning with the e-mails I've received about this witness, I

12     still don't see two translated documents that the last e-mail from one of

13     Dr. Karadzic's associates indicated was outstanding.  So that's one thing

14     I wanted to raise.  Second thing I wanted to raise was with respect to

15     the statement itself, there's another dropped incident referred to at

16     paragraph 18, that's the shelling of the TV building on 28 June --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Para 24 or 18 --

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, pardon me, there's been of course a different

19     version of the statement that was filed recently and I think my numbering

20     is off.  In any case -- my numbering is off.  It's paragraph 24 indeed

21     and I'd be asking for the redaction of that paragraph.

22             And finally and further, Your Honours, just to clarify the

23     understanding between Mr. Robinson and myself, that would be that the new

24     evidence that arrived in the last revised version of the statement be led

25     live, and I would be asking Your Honours for your indulgence on the

Page 30677

 1     cross-examination of this witness, if at all possible, that we could not

 2     begin at 9.00 tomorrow but perhaps one session later than that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Can I hear from you, Ms. Edgerton or Mr. Tieger, as

 4     to the scheduling issue in general that we don't have further witness for

 5     the week after the next witness.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I'm not quite sure what the Court has in mind,

 7     Mr. President.  What I can tell you about my discussions with

 8     Mr. Robinson in connection with scheduling, but if that illuminates some

 9     aspect of scheduling that the Court has in mind.  But otherwise, I

10     imagine that the Court would be putting this question to Mr. Robinson.

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber fully understands that there's never a

12     dull moment and that anything can arise during the course of hearing, but

13     the Chamber is concerned about losing time due to lack of witnesses.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I agree.  I'm just not sure what

15     light you'd like me to shed on the Defence's scheduling arrangements.

16             JUDGE KWON:  If you do not have any observation, that's fine.

17     Thank you.

18             Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  First of all, with the

20     scheduling situation we apologise that we don't have more witnesses

21     available this week.  Two weeks ago when we had the -- last week we had

22     four witnesses who had to go home because they were here waiting, and the

23     week before two witnesses had to stay over and two had to go home.  So we

24     had too many witnesses and we tried to learn for that.  I think we were

25     almost about spot on this week were it not for the fact excluded one

Page 30678

 1     witness and you also reduced the cross-examination times, so you cut us a

 2     little bit short.  Had it not been for that I think we would have made it

 3     almost through the end of the day tomorrow.  So that's the situation and

 4     we apologise.  We're doing the best we can.  Sometimes we come short,

 5     sometimes we have too many, but we're trying to do our best on that.

 6             If I can be heard --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  I'd like to be heard on the other issues as well,

 9     but if want to consult before that you can.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  With respect to the two exhibits that Ms. Edgerton

12     mentioned, it's true that they're not translated and we withdraw one of

13     them, 1D6286.  For the other, Dr. Karadzic would like to lead it live and

14     that's 1D6291.  With respect to the issue of the new parts of the

15     statement, I think maybe there was a misunderstanding between

16     Ms. Edgerton and I because I didn't feel that we agreed to lead them

17     live.  We just agreed that the Prosecution can have whatever time they

18     need to prepare for the cross-examination.

19             So these incidents -- this information was available to the

20     Prosecution within the 48 hours that the rule requires, and I don't

21     believe that it's that extensive that would require any further delay.

22     But whatever time they need and they can convince the Chamber is

23     appropriate, we're happy to give them.  But there's no point in leading

24     it live and wasting all of our time hearing oral evidence that can be

25     read without doing that.  Thank you.

Page 30679

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE MORRISON:  Mr. Tieger.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  I'm sorry, in this case the Court was too quick.  I

 4     appreciate the Court's about to deliberate on the substance of this

 5     matter, but I think I need to emphasize that whatever misunderstanding

 6     there was about that discussion is purely on Mr. Robinson's part.  Both

 7     Ms. Edgerton and I were present when that discussion was held.  That was

 8     clearly expressed and we understood clearly from our discussion that

 9     there was an agreement and we conveyed that when we returned to our

10     offices to the rest of the team.  So there may be a misunderstanding but

11     not on our part.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  Just in terms of the

14     incident that has been excluded from the indictment and is contained in

15     paragraph 24, it matters to me because of this other incident that was

16     excluded --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- and that has to do with --

19             JUDGE KWON:  -- let's stick to the principle.  If you'd like to

20     maintain such position, then it would be only fair that the Prosecution

21     should be allowed to reinstate that dropped charge and hear the evidence.

22             So let's not -- let's be consistent with our practice not to hear

23     the dropped evidence about the dropped charge.  So let -- so shall we --

24     I will order that para 24 to be redacted.  And with respect to the

25     recently added 11 paragraphs, the Chamber having reviewed the additional

Page 30680

 1     paras -- paragraphs and exhibits, the Chamber considers that the changes

 2     either provide additional detail to information already included in the

 3     statement or are not so significant to warrant ordering the accused to

 4     lead the witness live on the additional material.  The Chamber will admit

 5     it pursuant to Rule 92 ter when the requirements are satisfied.

 6             Let's bring in the witness.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just a correction.  In paragraph

 8     26, it is the 26th of May that is referred to, not the 26th of June.  I

 9     do apologise.  It's our mistake.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  And just on the correction that Dr. Karadzic has

11     offered, it seems to me that that's something he should do when the

12     witness comes and through the witness, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  It is not he that gives evidence.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But it's a mistake.  It's a typo.

16     It's not a mistake of substance, if you will.

17             JUDGE KWON:  But she signed on that statement -- he signed.

18             Good afternoon, sir.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Would you take the solemn declaration, please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23                           WITNESS:  NIKOLA MIJATOVIC

24                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please be seated and make yourself comfortable.

Page 30681

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.  Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Mijatovic.

 5        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.  May I ask how you're doing?

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Well.  I don't know with which rank you left the

 7     army; that's why I didn't address you by your rank.

 8        A.   I held the rank of major.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D6700 in

11     e-court, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Major, sir --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We will not broadcast this.

15             Yes, please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Did you give a statement to the Defence team and do you see that

19     statement before you on the screen?

20        A.   Yes, I see that statement before myself now on this screen and,

21     yes, I did give this statement.

22        Q.   Thank you.  I've been waiting and I kindly ask you to wait for

23     the interpretation.  Actually, when the typing on the transcript stops,

24     that's means that the interpretation is over.

25             Does this statement contain facts that you accurately presented?

Page 30682

 1        A.   It contains accurate facts and I stand by all the statements --

 2     all the facts that I presented.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you sign this statement?

 4        A.   I signed this statement in my own hand.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

 6     would your answers basically be the same?

 7        A.   They would be identical.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I please tender this 92 ter

10     package but we withdraw the document that Mr. Robinson referred to.  I'm

11     going to deal with the other one viva voce with the witness.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we ask that these be added to our

13     Rule 65 ter list because they were worked on with the witness after the

14     list was filed.  And the one that we're withdrawing is 6286 and the one

15     that we want to lead live is 6291.

16             JUDGE KWON:  In the future, why don't you try to put some

17     explanation as to whether there's good cause not to include these

18     documents in the 65 ter list?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I think I've been doing that actually, but

20     what I meant to say here was that when these documents were disclosed --

21     discovered, it was already after we had filed our 65 ter list and it was

22     decided that they should be used with this witness.  So we didn't -- we

23     hadn't put them on the list because at that time the determination hadn't

24     been made that we would use them.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, any objections?

Page 30683

 1             MS. EDGERTON:  To the documents, no.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to ask for a bit of

 3     flexibility because I know the facts the best and it's only when I see

 4     the witnesses during proofing -- it's only then that I can ask the

 5     witnesses whether they know of this or that fact.  I do not have that

 6     kind of confidential relationship with the investigators.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Simply they cannot constitute a good cause of any in

 8     itself.  However, Mr. Robinson, I do not see the relevance of 1D8566.

 9     Can I hear about that?  What's the relevance of this document?  It's

10     paragraph 28.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  According to paragraph 28 it indicates that

12     it shows where enemy forces were positioned in the city, thus relating to

13     the issue of whether they were legitimate military targets.

14             JUDGE KWON:  In order to determine whether it's relevant or not

15     if the accused wishes to tender this document, I would like him to deal

16     with this document with the witness live.  So with the exception of this

17     document and the untranslated documents, we'll admit them all and then

18     give numbers in due course.  But why don't we give the number for the

19     Rule 92 ter statement first.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  65 ter number 1D6700 will be

21     Exhibit D2496 under seal, and the public redacted version will be

22     Exhibit D2497.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will read out a

Page 30684

 1     statement of the witness's --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] A summary of the witness's

 4     statement.

 5             [In English] Nikola Mijatovic lived in Sarajevo with his family

 6     until early 1992 when a Muslim neighbour informed him that there was a

 7     plan to murder him, since he had lived in the area for approximately a

 8     decade and was one of the most prominent Serbs.  He and his family decide

 9     to flee to the predominantly Serbian settlement of Starosedeoca, near

10     Alipasino Polje.

11             He had information that weapons were being distributed in

12     Alipasino Polje, not to everyone, but only to those considered

13     sufficiently reliable by the Muslim organisers.

14             The permanent orders were not to open fire on civilian targets.

15     The reason for this, among others, was that the Muslim forces often

16     falsely informed members of the UNPROFOR and the UN observers that the

17     Serbian side was opening fire on civilian targets.  Although this was not

18     true, his superior command did not want to leave anything to chance.

19             Nikola Mijatovic is not aware that anyone in his brigade

20     prevented the supply of petrol, water, or electricity to the Muslim parts

21     of Sarajevo.  Conversely, due to the Muslim shelling of the transformer

22     station, the supply of electricity to Ilidza was interrupted, and in turn

23     also to the parts of the city under Muslim control which obtained

24     electricity through Ilidza.  On this occasion the Muslim forces falsely

25     informed UNPROFOR that it was the Serbs who had cut off their electricity

Page 30685

 1     supply.

 2             According to his information, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

 3     suffered from a severe shortage of artillery and mortar ammunition.  It

 4     is for these reasons that the corps was compelled to use modified aerial

 5     bombs.  The trajectory of these bombs was predetermined and could be

 6     controlled.  As with any other type of guided weapons, there was a chance

 7     of minimum deviation due to the meteorological conditions.  The objective

 8     for using modified aerial bombs was defence.  No one in his brigade nor,

 9     as far as he knows, in the corps command intended to terrorise civilians

10     in parts of the city controlled by Muslim forces.  He received reports

11     from his intelligence sources that Muslims were also using modified

12     aerial bombs.  Nor the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps nor the VRS had aerosol

13     bombs in their arsenals.

14             His brigade was unable to target communications centres and

15     suggested that another brigade should do it, since he was unable to

16     guarantee that they would be able to hit the targets with precision.

17             Regarding the incident of 28th of June -- it's going out I

18     suppose.

19             Regarding the incident in Hrasnica on 7th of April, 1995, as far

20     as Nikola Mijatovic knows, the command of the BH army was indeed the

21     centre of Hrasnica, and according to some intelligence there was a

22     120-millimetre mortar nest near the place where it fell, which was manned

23     by soldiers of the Army of BH.  He does not know any other details about

24     the incident.  Regarding the incident at Safeta Zajke Street on 26th of

25     June, 1995, Nikola Mijatovic points out that on 26th -- sorry, on 26th of

Page 30686

 1     May, 1995, an all-out Muslim offensive was launched on all lines of the

 2     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, mostly the Ilidza Brigade.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, due to some urgent matters the Chamber

 4     needs to rise now, so we'll adjourn for today.

 5             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll resume at 11.00.

 7             Would that suffice, Ms. Edgerton?

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you very much.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  And the Prosecution will have one and a half hours

10     for its cross-examination.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Tomorrow, 11.00.

13                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.36 p.m.,

14                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 30th day of

15                           November, 2012, at 11.00 a.m.