1 Wednesday, 12 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Good morning, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff. It's been a while since I saw
8 you last in the courtroom.
9 MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF: Thank you, Your Honour. I can't see you
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Good morning, Ms. Edgerton. Please continue.
12 MS. EDGERTON: Good morning. And, Your Honours, just regarding
13 yesterday and our discussion about the exhibits, I've had an opportunity
14 to review the details of those exhibits, the ones we described -- or I
15 described as mis-characterised yesterday, and it's going to be far more
16 effective and efficient in terms of time to deal with those in our final
17 brief rather than in court today.
18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
19 WITNESS: VLADIMIR RADOJCIC [Resumed]
20 [Witness answered through interpreter]
21 Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]
22 Q. Good morning, Colonel.
23 A. [In English] Good morning.
24 Q. Now yesterday in talking about the air bomb incident of 7 April,
25 1995, you said at page 31258:
1 "As far as I can tell, the target of my brigade was only the
2 command post of the 4th and later on the 104th Motorised Brigade," which
3 you said first was in the Hrasnica school and then in the post office in
5 So my question to you is -- from this: Who made the target
6 decision, was that you or was that someone else?
7 A. Regarding specifically air bombs, at the meeting --
8 Q. Sorry, sorry. My question is: In this specific case regarding
9 this incident on 7 April, 1995, who made the target decision, you or
10 someone else?
11 A. I was the one.
12 Q. Thank you. And that was, as I understand your evidence, based on
13 your understanding of a range of error for the modified air bombs of 10
14 metres at a distance of 1.000 metres based on those temporary firing
16 A. I used the term "temporary firing tables," not provisional firing
17 tables because in the Serbian language the word "provisional" is
18 associated with improvisation. Those were temporary firing tables and
19 they were temporary because the combat rules for the use of those assets
20 had not been written yet.
21 Q. That's fine. But to go back to my question, my question was that
22 you made that decision based on your understanding of a range of error of
23 10 metres at a distance of 1.000 metres, as you said in your statement
24 and in your evidence yesterday at page 31250 [sic]; is that correct?
25 A. Yes. I made the decision to use the air bomb on that target
1 because I estimated that at that moment it was the most profitable
2 target. Let's not forget that in the past three days there were
3 intensive combat actions between 104th Brigade and the 2nd Brigade of the
4 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
5 Q. Now -- thank you. Now, given the destructive power of these
6 bombs that you talked about yesterday, if the range of error had been any
7 greater than 10 metres at a distance of 1.000 metres, you wouldn't have
8 used it in an urban area, would you?
9 A. I said this yesterday, the command was based at the post office
10 and 50 metres away from it was the so-called school - I'm saying
11 "so-called" because it was not actually a school. So the possibility of
12 error and causing civilian casualties was minimal; that's one thing. And
13 the second thing, I repeat, Mr. Fikret Prevljak, the commander of --
14 Q. Now, I really hate to interrupt you, but to go back to my
15 question, my question was: If the range of error had been greater than
16 10 metres at a distance of 1.000 metres - which is what you gave evidence
17 yesterday that you understood it to be - you wouldn't have used this
18 weapon in an urban area, would you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you also said yesterday that you used Plamen rockets as the
21 fuelling agent for these bombs and that was at 31251; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. So this new modified system incorporating the air bombs also
24 incorporated the existing Plamen rocket system?
25 A. Yes, fuel rockets without explosive charge.
1 Q. And its accuracy then would have been the same as the existing
3 A. Probably.
4 Q. All right. I'd like to have 65 ter number 24335A called up,
5 please. And these are firing tables for the 128-millimetre M63
6 multiple-rocket system called Plamen, as you see from the first page in
7 front of you. And if we could go over to page 2. Just by the way,
8 Colonel, you know how to read a firing table based on your evidence
9 yesterday; correct?
10 A. Yes, yes.
11 Q. So if we could have a look, then, at the table here on the
12 left-hand side, most left-hand column, this is the column that, you would
13 agree with me, shows distance; correct? It has metres set out.
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Now, in the third line down on the left-hand side we see the
16 figure of 1.000 metres and if we go over to the furthest right-hand
17 column we see -- pardon me, the furthest two right-hand columns, we see
18 the figures for range of error, don't we? And we see that at a range of
19 1.000 metres, the Plamen rocket has a margin of error of give or take 146
20 metres by 4 and a half metres. You would agree with me?
21 A. And your question is?
22 Q. You would agree with me? The range of error for the Plamen
23 rocket is plus or minus 146 metres by plus or minus 5 metres.
24 A. I can answer that the multiple-rocket launcher has 32 rockets and
25 it's designed mainly for a large-area targets. This firing table is used
1 for that weapon and we only had one fuelled rocket. So this firing table
2 cannot apply to a modified air bomb because this was designed for 32
3 rockets. If you are aiming at the centre of the target, the error is
4 maximum what is indicated here, but the area covered by the
5 multiple-rocket launcher is much larger than the area covered by the
6 modified air bomb. So you cannot use these figures for comparison with
7 the modified air bomb.
8 Q. Even taking that into account -- now let me ask you another
9 question. So are you saying that the range of error -- so it's your
10 contention that taking the warhead from the Plamen rocket and attaching a
11 heavier object makes it actually more accurate than the standard produced
12 tested warhead that we've got firing tables for; is that your evidence?
13 A. I have to apologise and say that you are putting questions to me
14 that do not fall within my area of knowledge and training. I can only
15 tell you what I know from experience, but I really cannot answer this
17 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, can we -- Colonel, can you assist. The
18 multiple-rocket launcher fires 32 individual weapons. Each weapon has a
19 propellant and a warhead. Now if I recall from previous evidence, the
20 modified air bombs were propelled by taking four of those rockets,
21 removing the warheads from them, and simply using them as a propellant.
22 So --
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. We would need your verbal answer.
24 JUDGE MORRISON: Yeah. You're nodding instead of saying "yes."
25 Was the answer to all my questions so far been yes?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE MORRISON: So the ballistics of the single rocket, albeit
3 fired in multiples of 32, and a modified air bomb with four rocket
4 motors, to a layman it sounds it must be different. Was that your
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
7 JUDGE MORRISON: See, the danger is, I think, Ms. Edgerton that
8 you're to some extent comparing apples and oranges it seems to me. To
9 use the firing tables for one weapon system and apply it to a modified
10 and unique system, there may be degrees of inaccuracy, but speaking for
11 myself I don't see how you can use the ballistic tables for one weapon
12 and apply it to another weapon without some form of ballistic expert
13 evidence to back it up.
14 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours, I had no intention of taking --
15 after the Colonel's answers taking this matter any further in any case --
16 JUDGE MORRISON: No.
17 MS. EDGERTON: -- with this witness. I would simply be asking to
18 be able to understand his answers that this document be marked for
19 identification as a Prosecution exhibit, given that it's untranslated.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 24335A receives number P6040, MFI'd,
22 Your Honours.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I intervene. The witness said
24 it is much too expert a question for me. That's what he said in line 16.
25 He said this is much too specialised an issue not falling within my area
1 of knowledge.
2 MS. EDGERTON: That's fine if the witness confirms that's
3 accurate, and I'd like to move on, please.
4 Q. Now, yesterday you also said the house that was hit in Hrasnica
5 on 7 April 1995 was about 20 to 30 metres away from the facility that was
6 your target, and I'd like to call up 65 ter number 24334, please. Now,
7 Colonel, this is an enlargement of a scaled map of Hrasnica marking where
8 you see the green number 10, the location of the incident on 7 April,
9 1995, and where you see the line with the marking 150 metres, the
10 distance between that location and the Aleksa Santic school, and where
11 you see the line that says 148 metres, the distance between the location
12 of the incident and the former post office. So that's actually not what
13 you said yesterday, is it?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please get the provenance
15 of this map. Who established that it was here?
16 JUDGE KWON: Let's hear the answer and then you can deal with
17 this matter in your re-examination. She's introduced the scale and the
18 location. It's up to -- it's for the witness to confirm or deny.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the information I got from
20 UNPROFOR and the people who had fled Sarajevo, the air bomb that was
21 launched landed exactly between the school and the post office
22 building - and I'm using these terms "post office" and "school"
23 conditionally. So I cannot comment this information that it landed
24 somewhere on the road.
25 MS. EDGERTON:
1 Q. Well, first of all, I never said it landed somewhere on the road.
2 I told you yesterday it landed on a civilian house. And my question to
3 you is: These two distances being 150 metres between the scene of the
4 incident and the school and 148 metres between the scene of the incident
5 and the post office are not the distances you gave yesterday, are they?
6 A. According to what is written here, it would seem so. But I'm
7 telling you, I have information that it did not land there. And I said
8 "the road," because the yellow lines indicate roads. It looks like it
9 landed exactly on the road.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 MS. EDGERTON: Could I have this as a Prosecution exhibit,
13 JUDGE KWON: But how can you argue that number 10 is the point of
14 landing of the air bomb with this witness? Did the witness confirm that
15 number 10 is the point of landing?
16 MS. EDGERTON: Accepted, Your Honour. I'll just move on.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 MS. EDGERTON:
19 Q. Now, you've just mentioned the information that you had from
20 UNPROFOR and other sources and you mentioned yesterday in your testimony
21 that you heard from UNPROFOR that a Bosnian -- that only one soldier was
22 hit in the incident. And I'd like us to have a look at P2059 in that
23 regard, please. And there should be a translation available for the
24 Colonel. Now, this is a special report from SI-1 entitled: "Large
25 Explosion on Hrasnica on 7th April 1995." And it's a United Nations
1 document, page 1, paragraph 1 says:
2 "As a result of the impact, one civilian female was killed, three
3 civilian females, and one civilian boy were injured ..."
4 So, in fact, this report from UNPROFOR is contrary to the
5 information you said you received yesterday, isn't it, Colonel?
6 A. According to the information I have, in the building that was
7 destroyed and which you claim to be a civilian target -- a civilian
8 building, I said it was a building that housed the guards detail of the
9 104 Brigade, and even a picture was shown where we could see the legs of
10 a uniformed soldier. So I spoke yesterday about what I'd seen.
11 Q. You actually didn't answer my question and my question was: This
12 report from UNPROFOR is contrary to your evidence yesterday to the effect
13 that UNPROFOR told you only one soldier was hit, isn't it?
14 A. What is written here is different.
15 Q. Thank you. Now, in your statement you mentioned at paragraph 26
16 of your statement - and I see you've got your statement in front of you
17 so you might want to have a look at that paragraph - at paragraph 26 you
18 spoke about civilian casualties in Serb-held territory when you were
19 talking about the psychological state of civilians in your zone of
20 responsibility. And you said the civilian casualties created a big
21 psychological pressure on the civilian population. So you're talking
22 about shelling and sniping civilians in Serb-held territory; correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. So you mean to say that these civilians were scared and insecure?
25 A. Certainly.
1 Q. Frightened of what could happen to them and their family in, for
2 example, going outside because they wouldn't know where the next shell
3 might be coming from?
4 A. That war did not last three days - it lasted a long time - and
5 civilians needed to abandon buildings where they lived. Life went on
6 normally almost, market-places were open, shops worked; and what can be
7 established on the basis of my daily reports that I regularly sent to the
8 corps command, in moments when we expected it least Ilidza was hit by
9 mortar shells and artillery shells from Mount Igman causing great
10 casualties. I think you can certainly see that from my reports.
11 Q. Now --
12 A. I believe the number of civilian casualties in Ilidza was about
14 Q. So that -- that pressure and fear that you're talking about --
15 well, actually you're talking about terror, aren't you?
16 A. I don't understand the question. Terror on whose part?
17 Q. I thought you were talking about civilians in Serb-held territory
18 being terrorised by shelling and sniping?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. All right. So -- well, let me ask you this. So being the
21 subject of constant shelling and pervasive sniping would cause this fear
22 anywhere, wouldn't it?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Including for civilians in Bosnian-held Sarajevo; correct?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Thank you.
2 MS. EDGERTON: Nothing further, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.
4 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, you have re-examination?
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency. Good morning,
6 Excellencies. Good morning to everybody.
7 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel, sir.
9 A. Good morning.
10 Q. You were asked whether sniping in urban areas where civilians
11 lived constituted terror. Did you open fire on the Muslim civilian areas
12 in order to terrorise civilians? Why did you open fire in those areas?
13 A. The Ilidza Brigade opened fire but never on civilian targets
14 which were exclusively civilian targets. But I have to say that the
15 school in Dobrinja was not a civilian target because it housed the
16 brigade command. A residential building which is fortified is also not a
17 civilian target. Muslims used those means. They intentionally found
18 shelter in such facilities in order to represent a possible response by
19 our forces as terror.
20 Q. Thank you. In that sense, can you tell us who was it who opened
21 the fire first? Who was it who benefitted most from fire being opened in
23 A. Mr. President, as you may well know, on several occasions I don't
24 know how many times a dozen of times cease-fires were agreed. Along the
25 line of subordination, we received orders to strictly adhere to those
1 orders on cease-fire and we did adhere to them. Unfortunately, the
2 Muslim forces did not honour that. They benefitted from the opportunity
3 to provoke us into engaging at the moments when it suited them the most,
4 and it suited them the most when a delegation was about to visit Sarajevo
5 and we really feared that. Whenever somebody arrived, we emphasized for
6 all of our combatants make sure not to engage in any provocations because
7 the Muslims will want you to do that.
8 Q. Thank you. You were also asked about firing air bombs on
9 Hrasnica and a reference was made to a statement was Overgard. Was
10 Overgard a member of UNPROFOR or was he an MO, a military observer? Do
11 you remember that?
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now I'd like to call up
15 65 ter 15890. Perhaps we should better look at the statement. This
16 is -- the transcript. Let's look at 65 ter 10001.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. You received information from a member of the United Nations
19 forces, right, you mentioned that?
20 A. Yes.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 10001. Can we take a look
22 at the following page. In English and in Serbian it should be the last
23 paragraph that I'm interested in. I would like to read this in English
24 so that we may control things in Serbian as well. The third and the
25 fourth line from the bottom.
1 [In English] First we went to the police station to pick up
2 Hakija Hasanefendic, the local police inspector. When we came back on
3 site we walked around the site. When we came back we found out that one
4 woman was dead and supposedly some others. I saw some legs under bricks
5 with camouflage trousers and boots."
6 [Interpretation] Is this what you also received by way of
8 A. This is the information that I received. He told me that he saw
9 the legs of a soldier in uniform with his own eyes. It says here "I saw
10 some legs."
11 Q. Thank you. He also mentioned that in his evidence, I'm talking
12 about Mr. Overgard, obviously.
13 Do you remember you were shown here an order dated 6 April 1995.
14 That order was issued by General Milosevic?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that order was in connection with that rocket being fired?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now take a look at
19 65 ter 16449.
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Let's look at the following page.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the document is only
23 two pages long and -- no, this is not the document. I apologise. There
24 may be a mistake. Can we look at D02412 dated the 4th of April, i.e.,
25 the same day. D02412 -- I apologise. It is 17 if this is the one, 1217.
1 I apologise for the confusion that I created with the numbers. That's
2 not the number. Instead can we look at P782. P782. It's not P, it's D,
3 D [In English] Defence exhibit [Interpretation] 782. That's it but we
4 are waiting for the translation.
5 Q. Colonel, sir, could you please take a look at the date of this
6 document and what was issued on that date by the command of the Sarajevo
7 Corps? The date and the title.
8 A. Yes, we are looking at 4 April 1995 and it is an order for
9 artillery number 1/95.
10 Q. Thank you. You don't have to read it through but could you
11 please take a look at the contents of this document. Why are Muslim
12 forces on Treskavica mentioned? You will find it in the second paragraph
13 of bullet point 2.
14 A. Some of the elements of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and other
15 corps such as Herzegovina and Drina Corps should organise defence in the
16 respective zones of their responsibility in order to stop the enemy and
17 keep them in their positions and then to launch counter-attacks on the
18 axis that are mentioned here.
19 Q. Thank you. Can we go to the following page, please. To speed
20 things along I will read. It says here:
21 "Tasks" --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters do not see that on the screen
23 and the accused is reading too fast.
24 JUDGE KWON: The interpreters were not able to keep up with your
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Okay. Let's simplify things. Colonel, sir, these aerial bombs,
4 are they part of artillery?
5 A. No. The name itself, aerial bombs, implies that aerial bombs are
6 not artillery. However, if modified one may say that they will fall
7 under the category of artillery.
8 Q. Thank you. Could you please look at the fourth bullet point.
9 What about the first paragraph, what kind of defence is this? What does
10 it consist of? And what kind of an enemy infantry advance is this
11 referred to? Where is that? Where are the ends of defence with respect
12 to Hrasnica and Vojkovici?
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, often your legal adviser objected to
14 various compound questions. Ask one by one.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Let's simplify things then. What kind of attacks are these and
17 on what axis? What does this document talk about?
18 A. Mr. President, this document talks about attacks along the Muslim
19 axis on the slopes of Igman and Bjelasnica in the direction of the
20 Serbian territory, so we're talking about the areas which were under our
21 control after Lukavac 93 operation and those areas after the agreement
22 was signed were controlled by UNPROFOR. However, it seems that the
23 control was not very good because the Muslim forces benefitted from the
24 withdrawal of our own forces and under the protection of UNPROFOR they
25 wanted to return the territories that they had lost.
1 Q. Thank you. I will just read two bullets.
2 "Neutralise the activities of enemy artillery and mortars."
3 And the following one:
4 "After the firing positions are taken, correct -- proceed to make
5 fire adjustment with the battery's main artillery pieces and direct fire
6 artillery pieces upon the first detected target."
7 Did the Muslim forces in Hrasnica in contact with your brigade
8 and the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade have artillery?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And what about Sokolovic Kolonija along the entire length of the
11 line of contact, was that the same case?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You were asked whether the Army of Republika Srpska closed the
14 airport to humanitarian air-lifts and did they do the same with the
15 roads. What were the main and the most common causes for the closing of
16 roads and airports?
17 A. According to what I know, the most common reasons for closing the
18 roads and all the other means of communications were Muslim offensives.
19 Q. Thank you. Do you remember if there was a cease-fire in the area
20 of responsibility of, or rather, in the Sarajevo area in late 1994. That
21 cease-fire was agreed upon in a spectacular manner, as it were?
22 A. Yes.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up D1124.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What was the attitude of the Army of Republika Srpska and how did
1 the cease-fire reflect on civilians?
2 A. I did not understand your question, Mr. President.
3 Q. In a nutshell, how did cease-fires reflect on everyday life?
4 A. All the cease-fires that were signed were used by civilians to
5 make purchases to go to the market-place. They visited each other. To
6 put it simply, during the periods of cease-fire life returned to normal.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. This is Akashi's telegram to Annan which was sent on the 7th of
10 April. The latter was at that time the under-secretary for peacekeeping
11 operations. I am going to read in English. There's no translation. You
12 will receive it through the headphones.
13 [In English] "As with the airport routes ... consent of the
14 parties is the key. Without this the only other option is enforcement.
15 It must be emphasized that during the early part of the cessation of
16 hostilities agreement, life for the average resident in Sarajevo improved
17 considerably. The airport routes were opened, tram services were
18 running, and utilities were beginning to be repaired and maintained. All
19 progress came to a halt due to the refusal of the Bosnian side to attend
20 the central joint commission designed to negotiate, amongst other things,
21 the status of Sarajevo. The flagrant disregard of cessation of
22 hostilities agreement by the BH when they launched two military
23 offensives in Travnik and Stolice areas also contributed considerably to
24 the worsening situation in Sarajevo.
25 "Additionally, the killing of the two Serbian children by sniper
1 fire within Sector Sarajevo influenced and hardened BSA attitudes."
2 [Interpretation] So after life recovered, as it were, how did
3 this activity of the BH army affect the situation regarding humanitarian
4 convoys and transport?
5 A. Certainly in such situations when there was a cease-fire
6 agreement that had been signed, supplies became more intensive both in
7 terms of the city and the Serb settlements. More humanitarian aid
8 arrived, but I must say now that often it was abused in the sense of
9 ending up in military warehouses. I have information to the effect that
10 convoys that arrived during cease-fires ended up in logistics bases of
11 the BH army from where this aid was distributed to soldiers, whereas
12 civilians could buy it at the Sarajevo markets, Markale, Grbavica, and so
14 Q. Thank you. Madam Edgerton suggested to you that roads had been
15 closed off even from the month of April. Is it correct, or rather, do
16 you know how the humanitarian aid flowed and is it correct that the roads
17 had been sealed off as of April?
18 A. I do not recall while I was brigade commander that roads would be
19 closed for more than a few days. In most cases solutions were found
20 because we understood the need to have the civilian population supplied
21 with food.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D1167, could we have that, please.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Since there's no translation I'm going to read it out myself.
1 It's Annan writing to Akashi about what he knew.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
3 MS. EDGERTON: I'm actually -- Your Honours, this is re-direct
4 examination and I recognise that I haven't given Dr. Karadzic an
5 opportunity to ask this question, but this has been a progressive thing,
6 and my submission is we're actually on the edge of improper re-direct
7 examination because Dr. Karadzic has been spending a great deal of time
8 now reading out evidence rather than effectively seeking the witness's
9 evidence on discrete points that have been raised in the
11 JUDGE KWON: I find it to be a very fair comment, so why don't
12 you put a foundational question first and then if necessary you can visit
13 the documents.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll do my best. This
15 skill still seems to escape me.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Colonel, it was suggested to you that from April onwards all
18 supplies had been cut off. There's a document here which you cannot read
19 in Serbian, unfortunately, it's dated the 17th of April. And what it
20 says is the complete opposite, that the UNHCR achieved quite a bit. Does
21 this correspond to your own experience?
22 A. Yes.
23 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
25 MS. EDGERTON: It seems like Dr. Karadzic may not have understood
1 the point and what we arrived at was effectively a leading question in
3 JUDGE KWON: Absolutely.
4 "... what it says is the complete opposite, that the UNHCR
5 achieved quite a bit. Does this to your own experience."
6 This sounds as if you are giving evidence, Mr. Karadzic.
7 [Defence counsel confer]
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I will have to find a way to
9 challenge this because documents do actually dispute what the Prosecution
10 had suggested --
11 JUDGE KWON: As Ms. Edgerton indicated, you can use this passage
12 in your final brief, given that this is already in evidence.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'll do my best.
14 Excellency, I would kindly ask you to consider the matter since we've
15 admitted all the transcripts of government meeting, Assembly meetings,
16 Presidency meetings. Also, we should admit all the approvals for convoys
17 every two or three days. There are these documents that allow convoys,
18 approve them, and that is in stark contrast to what has been suggested.
19 If necessary, we can submit this in writing too, if the Trial Chamber
20 believes that would be appropriate.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Colonel, what kind of orders did you receive from me and from the
23 top echelons of power as far as convoys are concerned?
24 A. I said yesterday that the system of convoys passing through the
25 area of the Ilidza Brigade was quite clear to all of us and as a matter
1 of fact we got a few letters defining that. So convoys were announced
2 and we would let them go in accordance with these announcements.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D283, could I call that up now,
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this order of mine relates
7 to? You don't have to read it out. Just deal with the essence.
8 MS. EDGERTON: Your Honours --
9 JUDGE KWON: Again, yes.
10 Yes, Ms. Edgerton.
11 MS. EDGERTON: -- I would submit this is not proper re-direct
12 examination at all, Your Honours.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, would you like to reply?
14 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I don't see anything wrong at all with
15 this -- doing it the way he's doing it. She's brought up in her
16 cross-examination the issue of obstruction of humanitarian aid. The
17 witness has been asked a foundational question that he's aware of the
18 instructions for foundational aid. And now Dr. Karadzic is going to ask
19 this witness how this document tallies with his understanding of the
20 situation. And if he says that it does and explains how, it can be
21 admitted, which is a perfectly good way to conduct a re-examination.
22 JUDGE KWON: I haven't read the content of this document.
23 MR. ROBINSON: If you look at number 1 --
24 JUDGE KWON: But did he receive this order from Mr. Karadzic?
25 MR. ROBINSON: Well, that's a good question. You can ask him
1 that or if he was aware of it in some way.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I wanted -- I told Mr. Karadzic to put some
3 foundational question before putting the document first directly to the
5 MR. ROBINSON: But he did. He asked a foundational question and
6 the witness said he was familiar with the policy concerning that convoys
7 shouldn't been obstructed. Haven't gotten that answer, I don't see
8 anything wrong with him having put the witness -- I don't see that the
9 Prosecution in their direct examinations when the Prosecution witnesses
10 were being called were precluded from asking -- from presenting a
11 document to a witness in these circumstances.
12 JUDGE KWON: But take a look at the question Dr. Karadzic posed
13 as a matter of fact. I quote:
14 "Can you tell the Trial Chamber what this order of mine relates
15 to? You don't have to read it out. Just deal with the essence."
16 He doesn't -- he didn't ask whether he knew of the order at the
17 time or whatever. He just wanted to read -- wanted the witness to read
18 and then confirm with the document.
19 MR. ROBINSON: But look at the question on line 19 right before
21 "Colonel, what kind of orders did you receive from me and from
22 the top echelons of power as far as the convoys are concerned?"
23 That's --
24 JUDGE KWON: That's a proper question.
25 MR. ROBINSON: That's the preliminary question. Having then --
1 the witness said that we received information, now Dr. Karadzic is asking
2 him: Is this the type of information you received. What's wrong with
4 JUDGE KWON: In my opinion, I'm speaking for myself, he should
5 have asked whether the witness knew about this order first --
6 MR. ROBINSON: Even if --
7 JUDGE KWON: -- instead of asking to confirm the document.
8 MR. ROBINSON: But even if the witness doesn't know about this
9 order, if this order is consistent with the instructions that the witness
10 believed he'd received, it should be [Overlapping speakers] --
11 JUDGE KWON: Then he can put that question after the first
13 MR. ROBINSON: Okay. I -- honestly I think he did the best -- I
14 think he did it within -- well within acceptable limits, but if you want
15 it done a different way, I don't see any reason why not.
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Colonel, sir, this order of mine, how did it reflect on the
20 orders or instructions that you received from the corps?
21 A. Orders from the corps command were very specific, that is to say,
22 convoys of humanitarian aid should be allowed to pass according to
23 customary procedure. As I said yesterday, it had been defined clearly
24 and there were never any problems in that regard.
25 Q. Thank you. The orders of the president, did the corps convey
1 them to units?
2 A. Important orders like this one were. I am familiar with this
3 order but not directly in this form. Rather, what I received were the
4 obligations that I had as brigade commander on the basis of this order of
5 yours, and then this became part of the regular procedure that I've
6 already discussed.
7 Q. Thank you. Can you tell me something, I need this for a
8 particular document, how the other side behaved towards us during
9 Christian holidays?
10 A. Well, during Christian holidays, we raised the combat-readiness
11 of our units because most often fire was opened at our positions then.
12 That would be their greeting card sent to us. Since the lines were very
13 close that is actually what they would say to us, "We wish you a happy
14 holiday," with gun-fire. We received that but we did not the respond
15 with fire because that was not our custom.
16 Q. Thank you. How did we behave during Islamic holidays?
17 A. On the basis of instructions that we received from you --
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Okay, okay --
19 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3470, I would like to call that
21 up then.
22 May I tender the previous document?
23 JUDGE KWON: Was it not admitted yet? Yes, we'll admit it.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number D2619, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3470 then, please. Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You said a moment ago that my orders were sent on to the units.
3 Does it also say here sent to all units and can you read out the first
5 A. I can.
6 "The Army of Republika Srpska" --
7 Q. No, no, please. The preamble before that.
8 A. "Submit to all units.
9 "We hereby forward the integral text of the order of the
10 president of the RS number 01-464/94, dated the 13th of March, 1994."
11 Q. Thank you. And then my order follows and that's under quotation
12 marks. What does this relate to? Could you please interpret the first,
13 second, and third paragraphs. It hasn't been translated because I didn't
14 know that this would be challenged.
15 A. This refers to your order that we exercise maximum restraint in
16 terms of responding to provocations of the Muslim army.
17 Q. When? On what occasion?
18 A. During the Muslim holiday, Bajram, the 13th and the 14th of
20 Q. And what is the second paragraph --
21 JUDGE KWON: Before you answer the question, yes, Ms. Edgerton.
22 MS. EDGERTON: I stood because questions related to the holidays
23 were really not something that was a subject of cross-examination in any
24 regard, Your Honours, and this line of questioning and this document
25 seems to be derived from that. And I think that's not appropriate
2 JUDGE KWON: Can you assist us, Mr. Robinson?
3 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I totally agree with
4 Ms. Edgerton that this issue of the holidays is outside of the scope of
5 the cross-examination. I think the document is admissible for well
6 within the scope of her cross-examination concerning why they were
7 firing, but the aspect of the document that Dr. Karadzic has highlighted
8 I don't think arises from the re-direct -- from the cross-examination.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Since there is no translation,
11 Excellency, I would like to ask the Colonel about this.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. The first paragraph is all right. It has to do with the Bajram
14 holiday. And what about the other two paragraphs? Could the convoy --
15 what is the essence of my order that is being conveyed to you by
17 A. You repeated several times that we should let convoys pass
18 through in accordance with the procedure that we received. And it says
19 here that we should not create any problems, but rather that we should
20 observe the procedure involved.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted for
24 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.
25 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D3470 receives number D2620,
1 Your Honours, MFI'd.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The last document, although there
3 are many of them --
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You said in response to a question from Ms. Edgerton that it was
6 not only Republika Srpska or your brigade that stopped convoys, that
7 perhaps convoys were stopped in Herceg-Bosna. Do you remember saying
9 A. Yes. I have to recall that Herceg-Bosna bordered the
10 Igman Brigade and was perhaps 10 kilometres away from my positions.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get 1D3170.
12 THE INTERPRETER: Can Mr. Karadzic kindly slow down. Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you are asked to slow down by the
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D3170. It exists in Serbian and
16 in English.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Can you tell us the date and who is writing to whom -- all right.
19 We see that. The Main Staff of the Republika Srpska army is addressing
20 the command of the UNPROFOR. Look at the last paragraph. Read it,
22 A. This is in support of the fact that the Muslim side by
23 obstructing the convoys they had used for the past three years is trying
24 to create the impression that --
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page. In
1 English that's the second paragraph.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Go on, please.
4 A. Could we zoom in, please.
5 Q. This supports the fact that the Muslim side preventing convoy
6 movement on the route which has been used for three years wants to make
7 you believe that it is impossible to use the aforementioned route?
8 A. And it says specifically that the route via Igman is used, which
9 we will never accept.
10 Q. Skip the next and then read from "our side."
11 A. "Our side will take all necessary measures" -- can you help me
12 because I can't read this copy.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. I'll read the first sentence. We don't have to read the rest.
16 "Our side will take all necessary measures in order to provide
17 full safety to the convoys moving through our territory as well as the
18 measures shortening and hastening the procedure for getting clearance.
19 We are surprised that you are blaming the VRS for turning convoys back to
20 Muslim-held territory."
21 Is it consistent with what you said yesterday that the other side
22 was stopping convoys too?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. What could be their motivation to stop convoys and why was it not
25 acceptable to us that convoys should go via Igman?
1 A. When you asked about their possible motivation, did you mean the
3 Q. I meant the adversary.
4 A. They wanted to portray us as unco-operative, as wishing to
5 exhaust their population, subject them to attrition, and we did not want
6 the Igman road used because it was the route of supply to their forces.
7 The road Sarajevo-Ilidza-Hadzici was the one used before. They wanted to
8 use the UNPROFOR and get them to use the other road so that they could
9 smuggle in their own equipment. I had information that they even painted
10 over two of their APCs into blue and we did not want to shoot at them
11 because we did not want to take any risks.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number D2621, Your Honours.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Thank you, Colonel, for your evidence.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I have
18 no further questions.
19 [Trial Chamber confers]
20 JUDGE KWON: Colonel Radojcic, that concludes your evidence. On
21 behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to
22 The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was my pleasure and honour.
24 [The witness withdrew]
25 JUDGE KWON: Given the time, shall we take an early break?
1 MS. EDGERTON: In Your Honour's hands. If we go with the witness
2 summary now, we can just play through until the normal break. My
3 colleague, Ms. West, will be dealing with that witness.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Then let's bring in the next witness.
5 MS. WEST: Mr. President, if I may, just two brief issues. I'm
6 not sure if you want to do this in the presence of the witness. The
7 first is the warning of which I have not advised the parties of.
8 However, after reflection, I would like that advisement given to the
10 The second is there are five associated exhibits to which I have
11 an objection. I'm not sure if it's more efficient to do this now or
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, why don't we do that. I will hear from you.
14 Yes, please proceed.
15 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. Your Honour, I'm focusing
16 on paragraphs --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. The witness we are talking about is
18 Mr. Bambarez?
19 MS. WEST: That is correct.
20 JUDGE KWON: Correct. Yes.
21 MS. WEST: Your Honour, there are a total of 11 associated
22 exhibits and I just have objections to five, and the focus of those five
23 are paragraphs 8, 9, and 10. These are all --
24 JUDGE KWON: What was the number of the 65 ter?
25 MS. WEST: These go from 1D8544 then -45 -46, and then 1D8554 and
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 MS. WEST: And those are five photographs. They are photographs
4 of buildings in Sarajevo, a few of which --
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, you may proceed.
6 MS. WEST: Thank you. A few of which have some markings on it
7 that were made by the witness. There are a few reasons why I think they
8 should not be included as associated exhibits. The first is they are,
9 for the most part, undated. And I understand that the defence in this
10 case, as regards these particular photos, is that there was a Bosnian
11 Muslim sniper on the building. It would be important to know the date of
12 these photographs because it's not clear to me to which scheduled
13 incidents these photographs are attributed.
14 Secondly, the paragraphs 8, 9, and 10 are inconsistent with each
15 other as regards to the photographs. So, for example, paragraph 8 notes
16 in one of these photographs that a building marked as number 1 did not
17 exist. But then we go to paragraph 9 and it speaks of this 1D8545, which
18 I believe refers to the same building that they refer to in the previous
19 paragraph, and they say part of the building did not exist. But then
20 when I looked at their 92 ter package from a few days ago under 8545, it
21 says a photograph showing the building not present during the war. So
22 the paragraphs in and of themselves are mutually inconsistent. That
23 coupled with a lacking of the dates -- and thirdly, it's just very
24 difficult to understand what exactly the witness means when you read
25 these three paragraphs. I had -- well, it's still unclear to me exactly
1 what it means.
2 So as regards the other exhibits, I have no problem; but as
3 regards these five exhibits, I would ask that they be led live.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, the question is whether these
6 are made -- are -- whether they require the exhibits to be admitted to
7 comprehend the statement. It clearly does, otherwise these three
8 paragraphs are meaningless. Any issues as to the unclarity of those are
9 something that can be dealt with in cross-examination, just like any
10 other unclear portions of a witness's statement. So the points that she
11 raises are things that she should take up in her cross-examination but
12 don't go to the issue of whether these are indispensable parts of the
13 actual statement, which they clearly are.
14 JUDGE KWON: But usually would you agree, would you not, that in
15 order to understand what the markings would mean you need to hear live to
16 a certain extent? It's very difficult to follow to understand the
17 meaning of markings made by the witness without his explanation.
18 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. And if you - after having
19 read those paragraphs - feel that you would like those to be led live
20 because you don't believe it's clear, then we can definitely do it for
21 that reason.
22 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
23 [Trial Chamber and Legal Officer confer]
24 JUDGE KWON: I found this to be a perfect timing for a break and
25 then we'll have a break for half an hour and resume at five to 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.22 a.m.
2 [The witness entered court]
3 --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.
4 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness take the solemn declaration,
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
7 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
8 WITNESS: ZELJKO BAMBAREZ
9 [Witness answered through interpreter]
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Bambarez. Please be seated and make
11 yourself comfortable.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Before you start giving evidence, I would like to
14 draw your attention to a particular rule here at the Tribunal. Under
15 this rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the
16 Prosecution or the accused or from the Judges if you believe that your
17 answer will incriminate you. When I say "incriminate," I mean that
18 something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt for a criminal
19 offence or could provide evidence that you have committed an offence.
20 However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you and you do
21 not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to compel you
22 to answer the question. But in such a case the Tribunal will make sure
23 that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used as evidence
24 in other case against you for any offence other than false testimony. Do
25 you understand what I have just told you, sir?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue -- please proceed.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
6 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bambarez.
7 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
8 Q. Did you give a statement to my Defence team?
9 A. Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I call up in e-court 1D6904.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you see that statement on the screen?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Have you read that statement and signed it?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. We need to make a pause between questions and answers to enable
17 the interpreters to capture all of our words so they get into the record.
18 Does this statement reflect accurately everything you've said?
19 A. Yes, it contains accurately everything I stated.
20 Q. Thank you. If I were to put to you the same questions today as
21 when you were giving your statement, would your answers be essentially
22 the same?
23 A. They would be essentially the same.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I offer this
1 package and I will elicit viva voce evidence on the three photographs
2 that the Prosecution has referred to and that the witness has marked. I
3 will do that after reading the summary.
4 JUDGE KWON: Ms. West referred to five photos. Do you mean all
5 of them?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will explain paragraphs 8 and 10
7 of Mr. Bambarez's statement, or rather, the matters covered by those
8 paragraphs and we will see about the photographs.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Can I take this opportunity to express the
10 Chamber's general preference to hear live when the witness is dealing
11 with maps with his or her own markings. In particular, the two
12 photographs dealt with in para 10 with 65 ter numbers 1D8554 and 1D8555,
13 given that they are not familiar with us and the Chamber is not
14 familiar -- aware of the provenance of those two photos, the Chamber was
15 of the opinion that those should be led live with the witness. But it's
16 even better for you to lead with the other remaining three documents --
17 photos as well.
18 One further thing is that the photo dealt with in para 11,
19 1D8551, allegedly being the picture of Baba Stijene feature, I have not
20 seen the picture yet but I do not see the point of tendering that photo
21 at all. We have seen a lot of photos of that place and the witness said
22 that there is no -- there were no snipers in that position. Is it not
23 sufficient by the statement itself? So if there's a point in
24 specifically of tendering that photo, you need to lead live with the
25 witness as well. Having said that, I would like you to proceed.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I should now like to
2 read out the summary of Mr. Bambarez's statement in English and then I
3 will lead the evidence.
4 [In English] Zeljko Bambarez is an economic technician by
5 profession from Centar municipality, Sarajevo.
6 When the war began the people in his settlement organised
7 themselves, forming a unit of approximately 25 men establishing a line of
8 disengagement in Zlatiste in front of their settlement which was 99
9 per cent Serbian. There was no established military unit at that time.
10 After the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was formed, he was appointed commander
11 of the 2nd platoon of the 2nd Command [sic] of the 3rd Battalion in the
12 Romanija Infantry Brigade. In June 1993 his battalion became part of the
13 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade. During 1994, Mr. Bambarez spent eight
14 months in Grbavica. His unit comprised local men and the command
15 structure did not include any professional officers.
16 In his statement, Zeljko Bambarez describes the line of
17 separation between the VRS and the BH army as well as the positions held
18 by the two armies. He likewise explained the use of artillery and
19 snipers in his unit as well as their use by the BH army and the passing
20 of humanitarian aid in his area of responsibility as well as the status
21 of electricity and water-supply.
22 In June the 8th -- 9th, 1992, they were tasked with, his own
23 unit, to liberate the Lukavica-Pale communication route. This route had
24 been cut off by Muslim forces which attacked the witness's platoon.
25 They -- Bambarez's unit managed to successfully liberate the route by
1 17th of June, 1992, and they remained in these positions until 31st of
2 October of the same year. This corridor was being used to transport
3 humanitarian aid to the Muslim side. Zeljko Bambarez's unit secured the
4 route and did not cause any problem or obstructions to such aid.
5 The aforementioned route became at the time unsafe since it was
6 the only road connecting Pale and Sarajevo. Sometimes around October
7 1992 approximately 50 civilians residing in Serbian territory were killed
8 by Muslim armed forces while travelling along the route. To avoid any
9 further losses of civilian lives, the witness and his platoon tried to
10 move the line of disengagement but failed to do so, losing five men in
11 the process. The witness and his platoon remained at the same position
12 until the end of the war.
13 Zeljko Bambarez also recalls that the mortar positions in his
14 company was in the same spot throughout the war and that it was never
15 within the sectors of Miljevici and Studenkovici or along the road
16 leading to the -- to Studenkovici. In fact, there were never any mortar
17 or artillery positions whatsoever in either of the aforementioned
18 sectors. Furthermore, his platoon never had snipers and his unit was
19 only involved in defence operations, with the sole exceptions of the
20 failed attempt to move the line of disengagement in the Lukavica-Pale
21 corridor. This was the only non-purely defensive operation action in
22 which his unit was involved. They were instructed to save ammunition and
23 refrain from firing for no reason.
24 Zeljko Bambarez explains that never he or any other members of
25 his unit, or their subordinated or superior commands, intended to cause
1 civilian casualties or terrorise civilians in the territory under Muslim
2 control or attack means of public transportation. They never received or
3 issued any verbal or written orders to that effect. Even in those
4 occasions where civilians who remained in the territories under Muslim
5 control were forced to dig trenches for the opposing Muslim forces and
6 whose forced labour posed a direct threat to the unit's position of
7 Mr. Bambarez, his unit followed orders not to fire at civilians.
8 On the contrary, civilians within territory under control of
9 Serbian authorities lived in constant fear due to the attacks by Muslim
10 forces. The first civilian casualty occurred during an enemy shell in
11 1992. His name was Nedjo Granic, a mentally retarded civilian unfit for
12 combat. Likewise, a young man was killed by a Muslim sniper while in a
13 car near Knjeginac. Furthermore, several Serb civilians in Sarajevo had
14 to flee the area. Zeljko Bambarez also explains that during the war they
15 already had information that civilian features in Sarajevo were being
16 misused and abused by military purposes, such as the Kosevo Hospital, the
17 military hospital, and the city hall, as well as the civilian houses.
18 Likewise, water-supply for the Muslim part of the city from
19 Jahorina Bistrica also passed through the Serbian zone of responsibility,
20 supply which was never obstructed. On the contrary, the Serbian
21 settlement of Grlica near Hrasnica was deprived of water-supply until the
22 end of the war due to a blockage by Muslim forces situated in the Muslim
23 part of Ilidza.
24 Zeljko Bambarez explains that they set up a barrier with wooden
25 planks, piled-up dirt, and blankets to thwart the attacks by enemy
1 snipers. On one occasion, Zeljko Bambarez was targeted by a sniper
2 belonging to the Muslim forces while digging a trench and the round hit
3 the shovel and pierced it. Enemy snipers also killed an UNPROFOR soldier
4 in Zeljko Bambarez's zone of responsibility and this UN soldier was
5 transporting humanitarian aid for the Muslim side.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. And now I would like to ask you to look at some photos that you
8 have already marked. Those paragraphs have to do with your own
9 paragraphs, primarily paragraph 8 in your statement. Do you have it in
10 front of you?
11 A. Yes, I do.
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, I think we forgot to give an exhibit
13 number to his 92 ter statement.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6904 receives number D2622,
15 Your Honours.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we now look at
17 1D8544. Can we zoom in on the lower part, the central part of the photo,
18 where some markings have already been made. Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Mr. Bambarez, could you please tell us what is it that you have
21 marked in this photo?
22 A. In this photo I have marked two buildings. When I moved to
23 Grbavica which was the zone of responsibility of my platoon in Grbavica.
24 The first one is a red building. Can I perhaps point to it on the
25 screen, this is the red building.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can Mr. Bambarez please be assisted
2 with the photo. He should have shown the MEIS [as interpreted] in a
3 different photo.
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can see it now. It is the
5 notorious red building in Grbavica, the MIS. I marked the positions of
6 the Serb forces as well as the position of the Muslim forces in that
7 building. That building had five entrances, two were held by the Muslim
8 forces and three were held by the Serbian forces.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. What about letter M, what does it refer to?
11 A. Muslim forces.
12 Q. And the letter S?
13 A. The Serb forces.
14 Q. Thank you. Can you please tell us what is the building on the
15 right-hand side?
16 A. The one with the blue roof?
17 Q. Number 2.
18 A. Yes, number 2. That's -- that was a building that was destroyed
19 during the war. Its appearance was not as it is now in this photo. The
20 roof has been repaired. It was a building in front of our positions in
21 the direction of the Unioninvest building.
22 Q. Thank you. Did that building prevent the view from the Muslim
23 positions onto the streets across the river Miljacka?
24 A. No, it did not. You can see that even in this shape and form
25 that building is lower than the red building that was occupied by the
1 Muslims, and during the war it was even lower than that. So there was an
2 unobstructed view during the war even better than it is now.
3 Q. What is it that you marked by number 1?
4 A. Number 1 is a different building, the so-called skyscraper that
5 was held by my platoon in the direction of the Unioninvest building.
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the accused please be
7 asked to make pauses between questions and answers. Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. What did the building look like during the war?
10 JUDGE KWON: Could I remind you again that -- to put a pause
11 between the questions and answers for the benefit of the interpreters and
12 slow down.
13 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. What did that building look like during the war, that building
16 that you marked by number 1? Was its shape and form the same?
17 A. The building marked by number 1 was not of that same shape. It
18 was lower by some two floors. The building marked by number 1 during the
19 war was approximately as high as the red building which I marked by
20 letters S and M.
21 Q. Thank you. Did it prevent a visual contact between the Muslim
22 positions in the red building and the streets across the river Miljacka?
23 A. No, no. Not the height that it was during the war because it was
24 almost at the same level if not lower than the red building that was
25 controlled by the Muslim forces.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness please be assisted
2 with the marking something with an electronic pen.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you please tell us what is the street in the projection of
5 these building on the Muslim side?
6 A. Do you mean the street that I'm now marking?
7 Q. Yes, that's the one. Can you put number 3 next to that line.
8 A. Yes, I've put number 3. I was not familiar with these little
9 streets in Sarajevo before the war. I didn't know their old names.
10 After the war, all of those streets have changed their names and none of
11 them is called the same as they were before the war. I was familiar with
12 Titova and Vojvoda Radomir Putnika Street, so the two main streets in the
13 city, and the other two that I used to pass along often. I don't know
14 their names. I read somewhere that today they're called
15 Djure Danicica [phoen] and Zmjan Bosna [phoen], but I really can't say
16 for a fact what their names indeed are.
17 Q. Thank you. Towards the bottom and the right-hand corner can you
18 put today's date and your signature.
19 A. [Marks]
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit marked by witness receives number D2623,
24 Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D08546.
1 JUDGE KWON: There seems to be some technical problem in saving
2 the photo.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is still on the screen. Can it
4 be --
5 JUDGE KWON: We are still experiencing some technical
6 difficulties. Shall ...
7 Could we do without the markings he made today? I think that's
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, we can, Excellency, as was
10 originally planned.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. If it is okay with you, then we'll admit
12 1D8544 as Exhibit D2623. Let's proceed.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to call up
14 1D08546. Thank you.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Bambarez, after a break can you tell us what you have marked
17 in this photo?
18 A. In this photo I have marked a building that has been refurbished.
19 After the war one floor was added to it and the sloping roof. During the
20 war that building was not as high as you can see it now and it was not of
21 such a lovely appearance, obviously.
22 Q. Can you tell us what you see in the background starting from the
23 yellow cube-shaped building to the right.
24 A. From the yellow cube-shaped building?
25 Q. From that yellow building towards the Miljacka.
1 A. From the Holiday Inn hotel you can see the Executive Council and
2 in the background you can see the two buildings belonging to Unioninvest.
3 Before the war they were called Momo and Zel [phoen].
4 Q. Where were the Muslim positions with respect to the building that
5 you have marked? Do you see any part of the red building.
6 A. No, in this photo you can't see any part of the red building.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes can this be admitted?
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, next exhibit. Exhibit D2624.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. And now I would like to
10 call up 1D08555. I apologise.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Can you tell us how many floors do you see in this photo, the
13 ground floor and six upper floors, right? We can all see that, can't we?
14 MS. WEST: Objection. I just don't see it, so -- otherwise this
15 is a perfectly inappropriate question.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. We're in a haste, I agree,
17 but we -- I'm trying to move things along.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Bambarez, can you tell us what this photo depicts?
20 A. This is the same building that we saw in the previous photo but
21 this was taken during the war. That was the building as it was during
22 the war. It has been refurbished since then, but it is of the same shape
23 as the photo -- as the building that we saw before.
24 Q. Can you tell us something about the number of floors that the
25 building had during the war and the number of floors that it has received
1 after the war?
2 A. As I've already told you, that building, as we can see it now,
3 was a bit lower than the red building, the building that I marked with
4 letters MNS. After the war when it was renovated, we can see that it has
5 become taller than it was during the war because now its height is
6 different than it was during the war. The building is now higher than it
7 was during the war.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
10 JUDGE KWON: Please ask the witness whether he knows who took
11 this picture and from what angle and how he believed that this is the
12 identical building we saw in the previous exhibit, et cetera.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Bambarez, how do you know that this is one and the same
16 A. Well, as I was looking at the previous photo where the red
17 building was marked and the position of this building taken from that
18 angle, you can see it's one and the same building but in a different
19 shape and form.
20 Q. And during the war did you ever come to this place?
21 A. I entered the building because the positions of the Army of
22 Republika Srpska were in this building. But we could not enter it from
23 the side from which the photo was taken. We could enter it from the
24 side, from the block of buildings that were there.
25 Q. Do you know who took this photo?
1 A. I don't.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, is this enough
3 to admit this photo into evidence?
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit this.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D8555 receives number D2625,
6 Your Honours.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to call up
8 yet another photo which is 1D08554, 1D08554.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Can you please tell us what this photo depicts and what you have
11 marked on it.
12 A. This photo was taken from the Muslim side. We can see the
13 Vrbanja bridge, the building of Unioninvest, and we can see the
14 skyscraper building where the Army of Republika Srpska had its positions.
15 Q. Who was it who held the white building of Unioninvest?
16 A. That white building did not look the same during the war. It was
17 a newly built building. There was only a concrete construction and it
18 was under the control of Muslim forces.
19 Q. Thank you.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted, Excellencies?
21 JUDGE KWON: So this photo was taken after the war?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
23 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll admit it as well.
24 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D8554 receives number D2626,
25 Your Honours.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We will not show the Baba Stijene
2 photo because all it depicts is the rock and not a view from the rock.
3 We will find another opportunity to show that photo. I have no further
4 questions for this witness.
5 JUDGE KWON: And I take it you are not tendering other picture of
6 blue roof, 1D8545, which is referred to in para 9?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, I thought it was not
8 in dispute. Obviously I would like to enter it. Can we call up 1D08545.
9 Thank you.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Could you tell us what you see in the photo and what you have
12 marked on it.
13 A. The photo depicts on the left-hand side the renovated building
14 which didn't look the same during the war. In the background you can see
15 the Unioninvest building. As I've already told you, during the war it
16 was a new concrete construction, so the building looked different during
17 the war. The building with the blue roof was damaged during the war and
18 it did not have the same blue roof construction as you see now.
19 Q. The position from which the photo was taken, during the war did
20 it command a view of the streets across the river Miljacka? Where were
21 Muslims forces in respect of that building?
22 A. In respect of that building, the Muslim forces were in the red
23 building which I marked. That building was held by both Muslims --
24 Muslim and Serb forces. And I believe that this photo was taken from the
25 red building, from the part that was held by Muslim forces.
1 Q. And as for the photos that you see in this -- as for the
2 buildings that you see in the photo, where were Muslim forces?
3 A. I know that some of the Muslim forces were in the Unioninvest
4 building, and as for the rest of the positions I don't know where Muslim
5 positions were in the depth of the territory.
6 Q. With regard to the fact that a new part was added to this
7 building, during the war did this building obstruct the view of the
8 streets across the river Miljacka from the positions of the Muslim forces
9 in the red building?
10 A. Can you please repeat, did this building what during the war?
11 Did it obstruct --
12 Q. Yes, during the war did it obstruct the view from the Muslim
13 positions of the streets across the river Miljacka?
14 A. No, it did not.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Exhibit D2627. And the remaining five
18 associated exhibits will be admitted into evidence and be given numbers
19 in due course by the Registrar.
20 I take it you have concluded your examination-in-chief?
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Bambarez, as you have noted, your evidence
23 in chief was in most part admitted in the form of writing, i.e., in
24 written statement of yours, in lieu of your oral testimony. Now you'll
25 be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,
1 Ms. West.
2 Cross-examination by Ms. West:
3 Q. Good afternoon, sir.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. I'd like to go back to these photos.
6 MS. WEST: May we have 1D85544 -- 1D8544.
7 Q. And this is the photo of the entire city that you showed us
8 earlier, and it's based off a photo in this area in the map book. And
9 again if we can focus in on those buildings that you commented upon. So
10 this building that we see with the red facade, this was held by both the
11 Muslims and the Bosnian Serbs; correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And in your statement you've gone to some effort to show the
14 heights of the other buildings, but I want to focus questions now as to
15 where a Bosnian Muslim sniper would have to be posted in order to have a
16 line of sight from off of the building with the red facade.
17 MS. WEST: May we have 1D8545, please.
18 Q. Now, this photo was taken from the building with the red facade,
19 the Bosnian Muslim building; correct?
20 A. I assume so. I'm not sure.
21 Q. Well, would you agree with me that it appears whoever took this
22 photo had to be standing on the roof?
23 A. At least on the last floor. If not on the roof, then on the last
25 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We can barely hear the
1 witness. Could he please be asked to speak into the microphone. Thank
3 MS. WEST:
4 Q. And this is a building in which within the same exact building
5 there are Bosnian Serbs; correct?
6 A. This building with the blue roof, the one that I see now?
7 Q. No, my apologies. The building from which this picture was
8 taken, the building with the red facade also had Bosnian Serbs in it as
9 well, did it not?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. And so in order for your suggestion to make sense that there
12 would be a Bosnian Muslim sniper on that building taking some action,
13 that Bosnian Muslim sniper would be exposed to the Bosnian Serbs who were
14 in the same building, would he not?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Well, let me ask you about this building we see to the left, so
17 not the blue building in front of us but the one over to the left. And
18 you said today at transcript page 41, you said that the building with the
19 red facade, the building from which this photo is being taken, was about
20 the same height as the building on the left side. Do you remember saying
22 A. I said that the red building during the war was roughly the same
23 height or slightly higher than the building that we see on the left-hand
24 side than it was during the war, that is.
25 Q. Okay. And so for a sniper to successfully have a line of sight
1 through that building that was of the same height or slightly higher, he
2 would have to stand on the roof, wouldn't he?
3 A. Well, you see, I came to these two buildings at the beginning of
4 1994, and the situation I found there is the one that I saw -- or rather
5 that we saw in these photographs. 1994 was a relatively quiet year. The
6 cease-fire was being observed. While I was at the front line and while I
7 held these positions of the Army of Republika Srpska, I -- I don't know.
8 I don't know of any sniper activity from that area, not even from the
9 Muslim part. As for the Serb part of the building, there were no snipers
10 at all. At the time we did not have any snipers. So I cannot say with
11 any certainty that the Muslim forces were firing from that red building,
12 that there was any sniper fire coming from there while I held the
13 position I held in the Army of Republika Srpska.
14 Q. Okay. So notwithstanding your testimony about the heights of all
15 these buildings, you don't have any other information that there was ever
16 a Bosnian Muslim sniper in that building, do you?
17 A. I don't have any information of that sort. I don't know of any
18 such thing.
19 Q. Sir, I'd like to speak to you about your paragraph 7 which
20 regards Osmice. And in paragraph 7 you say:
21 "From the settlement of Breka, it was impossible to see a tank
22 with the unaided eye ... in Osmice."
23 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
24 MS. WEST: Yes.
25 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether the witness has his statement with
1 him. Would you like to have one in hard copy?
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do have my statement.
3 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
4 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
5 Q. And you can refer to paragraph 7 as well. And this is when you
6 talk about Breka and it being impossible to see a tank with the unaided
7 eye, "mainly because the road passes through a pine forest near Osmice
8 and I don't think it would be possible to see a tank on grey asphalt in a
9 green forest with an unaided eye at a distance of over 2 kilometres."
10 Sir, how many tanks did your brigade have?
11 A. I really don't know that information, how many tanks the brigade
13 Q. How about your battalion?
14 A. The battalion did not have any tanks at all. This was an
15 infantry battalion, we were an infantry company. We did not have such
16 heavy weaponry in our unit.
17 Q. Would it be surprising to learn that your brigade had at least
18 two tanks in this exact area that we're speaking about, in Zlatiste which
19 is close to Osmice?
20 A. The brigade did not have tanks stationed at Osmice.
21 Q. What about Zlatiste, which is very close to Osmice, is it not?
22 A. Likewise, there was not a stationed tank there in the area of
24 MS. WEST: May we have P05941, please.
25 Q. This is a May 1995 document signed by Savo Simic. The Court's
1 seen this before. If we can look at number 1, part (B), it speaks about
2 fire support for the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade and the first thing
3 it says is: 120-millimetre mortar batteries from Palez, an 82-millimetre
4 mortar battery, and a 76-, and then it says two T-55 tanks from the area
5 of Zlatiste and Vraca.
6 Sir, seeing this now does this help you remember whether there
7 were any tanks during your time in the SRK in Zlatiste?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, could we have the time
9 exactly? Can we see whether the witness was there in the first place,
10 when in May?
11 JUDGE KWON: She told us the --
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was only May that was mentioned,
13 not the date.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What's the year?
15 MS. WEST: I suspect it must be a translation problem, but I did
16 mention May 1995.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Which day? Which part of May?
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I think the witness can answer the
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In 1995 I was in the logistics
21 platoon of the infantry battalion that was not at Zlatiste, and I was not
22 present at Zlatiste in 1995 at all. What I said I said in relation to
23 the period when I was in Zlatiste.
24 MS. WEST:
25 Q. Okay. So other than the period when you were in Zlatiste you
1 cannot tell us about any tank; is that your testimony?
2 A. That is correct, as far as the period when I was in Zlatiste is
3 concerned; I can only speak about that. But I really do not have any
4 information about the period when I was not in Zlatiste and I cannot
5 state my views with regard to what you've said.
6 MS. WEST: May we have 1D8543.
7 Q. This is one of your photographs and this you say in paragraph 7
8 shows the Osmice feature as well as a view of the city and Breka from
9 that particular feature. And if we can look at that just for a moment.
10 So this is taken from Osmice; correct?
11 A. This picture is so unclear, so foggy. I cannot discern anything.
12 I don't even know where it was taken from. But it is so unclear, the
14 Q. Well, have you seen this picture before?
15 A. Well, no, I haven't. But I see it now -- actually, I received it
16 along with my statement and you can see even less there because it's
17 black and white. So I really cannot discern this part of town, I mean
18 the one that I see in this panorama in terms of this photograph.
19 MS. WEST: Your Honour, then I would strike this as an associated
21 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bambarez, could you expand on your statement
22 that you received this with your statement in black and white. You
23 stated just now that you received it along with your statement and you
24 could see even less because it was black and white.
25 MS. WEST: Mr. President, the witness is directing -- he's
1 showing a copy of this in black and white just for the record.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, would you like to respond to this?
4 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think it would be
5 appropriate to read out to him what is in paragraph 7 of his statement
6 with respect to this and ask him if that is correct or not. And if he
7 stands by it, then it should be admitted; if he doesn't, it can be
9 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bambarez, you said you had your statement with
10 you. If you could draw your attention to the last part of paragraph 7.
11 So at the end of that paragraph you were explaining three photographs,
12 including 1D8543, which is the picture you are seeing in front of you
13 now, show the Osmice feature as well as the view of the city and Breka
14 from the feature. And then you said you thought it would be impossible
15 to see a thing at such a distance with an unaided eye. So this is a
16 photo you explained in your statement, but it's a bit difficult for us to
17 understand that you can't recognise this photo at all. And I didn't
18 understand what you meant that this photo came along with your statement.
19 Does it mean you never saw this picture before?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I saw this photograph before but I
21 did not comment on this photograph with regard to the view from Osmice.
22 I commented upon two other photographs, where you can see the Osmice
23 pensione in a devastated state and also the plateau below Osmice. And I
24 have those photographs in black and white as well.
25 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the end of the
2 JUDGE KWON: We'll take this picture out of -- out from the
3 associated exhibits.
4 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, that's fine.
5 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
6 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President.
7 Q. Let's continue to talk about Osmice and the view of Osmice into
8 the city. Now, you've lived your whole life in Sarajevo; right?
9 A. I was born in Sarajevo. I finished high school in Sarajevo. I
10 worked in Sarajevo. But I lived on the outskirts of Sarajevo in a
11 village that is about 7 kilometres away from the centre of Sarajevo. So
12 I did not live in Sarajevo then but I got my education in Sarajevo, I
13 worked there. My family home where I lived is about 7 kilometres away
14 from Sarajevo, from the centre of Sarajevo.
15 Q. Okay. Then I suspect that you have seen the city of Sarajevo
16 from views all around it in your lifetime?
17 A. Well, in my lifetime the best view of Sarajevo is the road from
18 the town leading to my house and the viewpoint at the memorial park of
19 Vrace. And that is the road that I saw most often because Sarajevo was a
20 big city, after all. Your life goes by without going into each and every
21 part of town. So I haven't been to each and every part of town from
22 which there is a view of the city itself. So this is a view from the
23 memorial park of Vrace, and you can see a considerable part of Sarajevo
24 from that viewpoint.
25 Q. Okay. But nonetheless in a little bit I'm going to be showing
1 you some views of Sarajevo to see if you can help me with them in a
3 But first, in regard to this paragraph 7 when you talk about it
4 being impossible to see a tank, do I assume that you're aware that the
5 Trial Chamber has heard evidence from a witness regarding what she could
6 see from her terrace in Breka, that she could see a tank in Osmice. Do
7 you know about that evidence?
8 A. The gentleman from the Defence team made me aware of that
9 statement of that witness, who says that she saw a tank - I don't know
10 when - on the Osmice plateau.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Now, I still claim that she could not have seen one.
13 Q. All right. So let's look at her evidence and then I'll ask you
14 about it.
15 MS. WEST: It's P00814, please, and if we can go to paragraph 25.
16 P00814. This is the amalgamated statement of Fatima Zaimovic and let me
17 just read you portion of this. It's paragraph 25. In regard to Breka
18 she says it's:
19 "... it's on an elevation above the town, so from my window I
20 could see a part of Mount Trebevic and a part of the town, and I could
21 even see those two large UNIS skyscrapers that were very badly shelled.
22 Every morning, I could see a Serb tank move into position in the area
23 called Osmice and start shelling the town. And on one occasion they even
24 filled barrels with explosives and rolled them down to explode among the
25 houses. I could see that from my terrace early in the morning. This
1 must have been towards the end of 1992 and the beginning of 1993, when
2 the shooting was fiercest. The tank was there all the time. There were
3 only civilian targets being hit. I could see the tank shelling hitting
4 houses and apartments. There were no military targets anywhere in sight.
5 The barrels with the explosives were being rolled down from Serb-held
6 territory in the area of Osmice."
7 Is this the information that the Defence shared with you more or
9 A. The Defence did not fully supply this information to me. They
10 said only that there was this statement made by a woman who said that she
11 saw from the area of Breka a tank firing from Osmice, firing at civilian
12 targets in Breka. To this day I claim the following: If you look at the
13 line between Breka and Osmice, it's about 2 to 2 and a half kilometres as
14 the crow flies. In my statement I said, and we see that in the
15 photograph here of the Osmice plateau --
16 Q. For the record you were showing 1D8542. Go ahead.
17 A. If the tank was on the Osmice plateau, it would have to be here.
18 There is a road going by Osmice, Lukavica-Pale. In my statement I said,
19 and I say to this day, that on this asphalt if we look at the colour of
20 the asphalt and the colour of the -- of a tank and the green forest
21 around Osmice, I think that it is impossible to see a tank from that
23 Q. Let's look at 1D8541 which is the other photo you have in your
24 statement regarding Osmice. And this is also from paragraph 7. This is
25 Osmice as well; correct?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. When were these photos taken?
3 A. Believe me, I don't know when these photographs were taken, but
4 judging by the way Osmice looks I see that this photograph was taken
5 either during the war or after the war.
6 MS. WEST: May we have 65 ter 24311, please.
7 Q. Now, I'm going to show you some other photographs that you've not
8 seen before and the first one is going to be a close-up. And bearing in
9 mind what that photo of Osmice looked like, I'd like to see if you see
10 anything else in here. Do you see this photograph in front of you? It's
11 taken of the Osmice area. And do you see that stone building on the
12 left-hand side that's sort of above an orange-looking house, do you
13 recognise that to be Osmice?
14 A. If you could zoom in a bit, it would be easier for me.
15 MS. WEST: If I can ask for assistance on zooming in on the stone
16 building, please.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's been no zoom. It's still
18 the way it's been except that you've lifted the picture up a bit.
19 MS. WEST:
20 Q. How's that for you? Can you see it now?
21 A. I see the building. I see the contours of Osmice, but I cannot
22 see the facade sufficiently.
23 Q. Then can you confirm for us then that that is Osmice?
24 A. This picture was taken from the Muslim part. It was taken from
25 the lower side of Osmice. I know Osmice better from the street on the
1 upper side of Osmice and that's where I mostly entered, the one that
2 leads to Pale --
3 Q. All right --
4 A. -- so I cannot say with any certainty --
5 Q. Thank you. And if we can just go to the right a bit of the stone
6 building of Osmice, and we see the pine trees and then we see a bit of a
7 clearing. Sir, can you confirm to me that there was a road that went
8 between Osmice and Baba Stijene?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And does that appear to be the road to you?
11 A. [No interpretation]
12 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the
13 witness's answer.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
15 MS. WEST:
16 Q. And in paragraph 7 when you spoke about your doubts as to whether
17 somebody could see a tank coming from Osmice, you specifically said you
18 thought it was impossible "mainly because the road passes through a pine
19 forest near Osmice and I don't think it would be possible to see a tank
20 on grey asphalt in a green forest with the unaided eye..."
21 Now, sir, I want to tell you that this photo was taken very
22 recently, in September of 2012. Would you agree with me that at the time
23 of the war, some 17-plus years ago, the vegetation that we see in this
24 photo would have been much less. Would you agree with that?
25 A. Well, regardless of the evergreen forest -- the vegetation is
1 there all year round. These are evergreens. The leaves don't fall off.
2 The pine needles are always there --
3 Q. No, I understand --
4 A. -- so it's --
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters could not hear part of the
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You cannot even see the road from
8 here. Would you like me to show where the road leads? You see how the
9 road cuts through the forest here towards Baba and Osmice and now you can
10 discern Osmice better than a moment ago. You can see for yourself what
11 it is that you can see in any situation. There's even a gorge here above
12 the road.
13 MS. WEST:
14 Q. Okay. So -- thank you. So you yourself can see the road, can
15 you not? You've just pointed it out.
16 A. No. I showed it. Since I know the area. I don't know whether
17 you can notice. You cannot see the road, but you can see this sort of
18 canyon by the forest. I can discern that but I don't know if you can.
19 So you see how it cuts through here, here.
20 MS. WEST: I think if the usher would switch on the witness's
21 pen, that might be helpful. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we ask Mrs. West to tell us
23 what kind of zoom this is. Was this photographed at a ratio of 1:1 from
24 the river?
25 JUDGE KWON: No, it's not a proper intervention, Mr. Karadzic.
1 MS. WEST: So, Madam Registrar, if we could -- before we were
2 higher and to the right when the witness was speaking about the road, if
3 we could go back to that view and then over to the right a bit.
4 Q. All right, sir, you've got a pen. Show us what you were just
5 speaking about. You spoke of a road. Can you point that out on the
6 screen? You can actually write on the screen.
7 A. I was saying that I recognise this part, but you can't see the
8 street or the road. However, you can see where the road should be
9 stretching through the forest.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yeah, we forgot to set the pen again. Just wait.
11 Could you wait till assisted by our usher.
12 MS. WEST:
13 Q. So now draw on the screen where you think the road is.
14 A. Approximately.
15 Q. Thank you very much. And can you also circle the building at
17 A. [Marks]
18 Q. Can you sign, please, sign your name on this and also date it,
19 which is the 12th of December.
20 A. [Marks]
21 MS. WEST: Your Honour, I would ask that this be admitted.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, next Prosecution exhibit.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number P6041, Your Honours.
24 MS. WEST:
25 Q. Sir, when you received this information, did they tell you that
1 she looked out every morning end of 1992 and into 1993 and saw this tank?
2 A. When I received this information - and I repeat, I only received
3 information that there was a lady who had stated that she had seen a tank
4 shooting from Osmice. I did not have direct reports myself, but I
5 maintain that what that lady said is a complete fabrication. There was
6 never any tank there. And she refers to the end of 1992/early 1993,
7 that's the period when I myself was there at the confrontation line, and
8 it's absolutely not true that there was a tank moving about there every
10 Q. So putting aside your opinion of her observations, would you
11 agree with me in a general sense that once somebody saw something once on
12 one morning and they went back the next morning, they would more readily
13 be able to look back at the same exact spot. And as each morning went
14 by, they would more easily be able to spot exactly what they were looking
15 for because they knew exactly where to look. Would you agree with that?
16 A. I never did anything of the kind like observing something every
17 morning, looking at one point, and looking to see something specific
18 there. So I can't say whether I agree or not.
19 Q. Okay. In paragraph 23 you spoke about forced labour. May we
20 have 65 ter 24337. And in paragraph 23, specifically you were speaking
21 about Serb civilians who remained in Muslim area and were forced to do
22 labour. Were there any occasions where you yourself were aware of the
23 SRK forcing Bosnian Muslims into forced labour?
24 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness sit closer to the
25 microphones, please.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, could you just clarify
2 that question for me, please.
3 MS. WEST:
4 Q. Were you ever aware of Bosnian Muslims being forced to do labour
5 by the SRK?
6 A. On two or three occasions I was aware that a mixed-labour platoon
7 came to us and helped us build protection facilities for the
8 Lukavica-Pale road. Among them, I recognised my own manager, Serb by
9 ethnicity, who was not a military conscript --
10 Q. Sir, let me ask you this --
11 A. -- and --
12 Q. My apologies for interrupting, but we're under a little bit of a
13 time-limit. You just said "mixed-labour." What did you mean by that?
14 A. I meant that when I recognised among the men in that platoon by
15 Serb manager, I suppose that there were also Muslims among the members of
16 the platoon.
17 Q. Let's look at the document in front of you, and this is a
18 document that's signed by you. It's dated December 31st, 1993, and it
19 regards a working platoon from Grbavica and prisoners from Kula who were
20 performing engineering works. It says there were a total of 15 people.
21 Fifteen of them were working along the line longer than 500 metres. Sir,
22 do you remember this incident or do you remember this occasion?
23 A. I remember.
24 Q. Okay. And it says 15 of them were working along the line longer
25 than 500 metres, does that mean the front line?
1 A. That means the separation line on our plain where we held our
2 positions. They helped us fortify our trenches and the shelters around
3 the Lukavica-Pale road.
4 Q. And as we go through it it speaks in the next paragraph
5 specifically where people were working. And then in the middle it says:
6 "In the morning Boro left to ask for the guards and he did not
7 get any and he can confirm it."
8 But then it says:
9 "I remained at the locality where those people were working ..."
10 So you were with them the whole time, is that right, or most of
11 the time anyways?
12 A. I was with them most of the time. Six men were working to
13 fortify my trench and I spent the greatest part of the day with them.
14 Q. All right. And if we skip down to the bottom or the towards the
15 bottom it says:
16 "I was there for a maximum ten minutes and when I was returning,"
17 meaning you'd been away for ten minutes, but when you were returning,
18 "Lackanovic was shooting at four of them who had started running away.
19 Two more prisoners were at that spot and I managed to take them out of
20 the communication trench."
21 Let's stop there. When you made this observation, did you hear
22 this Lackanovic give those prisoners a warning to stop before he started
23 shooting or did he just start shooting at them?
24 A. On the 31st December, as you see here, at 1600 hours, it was
25 already getting dark. And I can see that we had called the command. Two
1 or three members were working further down, members of the mixed platoon,
2 and they were wanted for some other work further down the line --
3 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, and I know that you're explaining the
4 circumstances, but I think we can see it in the document. Can you just
5 answer this: Did you hear him give a warning to the prisoners at whom he
7 A. I did not hear anything because I was far away from him. I
8 couldn't hear him from that distance.
9 Q. And if we just go to the last paragraph this is what you wrote:
10 "I just want to mention that regardless of all dangers that were
11 in the places that are supposed to be guarded (during the day there were
12 dozens bombs falling down a metre or two far from me), I was with them
13 all the time until that moment."
14 So here you're confirming that within that area where you were
15 and where these prisoners in this working platoon were located, you were
16 on the front line and you had dozens of bombs falling around you; is that
18 A. I state here that I was there with them and I built
19 fortifications alongside them 50 metres away from the separation line,
20 perhaps less, and the Muslim forces were showering us with bombs which
21 were landing very close to us. So what I'm trying to say is I was there
22 with them under the same circumstances.
23 Q. Okay. Very good. And these people did not volunteer to do that
24 work, did they?
25 A. I don't know. I don't know about the circumstances under which
1 they were recruited, whether they volunteered or not, and I didn't even
2 ask for them to come. They were brought there. And in addition to all
3 the things we had to do, on the front line, we also asked for a security
4 detail to come with these people; however, the security detail did not
5 come. So we were forced to stay with them while they were building
6 fortifications and we were together in the trench; however, they took
7 advantage of the time when it was getting dark to escape and they
8 escaped. Good luck to them.
9 Q. Sir, just one more question. Have you ever been a member of a
10 political party?
11 A. I was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party of the Novo
12 Sarajevo municipality.
13 Q. And during your membership, was that membership in 1991, 1992,
14 1993, about those years?
15 A. I was a member of the Serbian Democratic Party in 1991 and the
16 beginning of 1992 until the war began. The work of the party was on hold
17 for the duration of the war so there was no party activity.
18 Q. And my last question for you is: That information is nowhere
19 mentioned in your statement, is it?
20 A. Nobody asked me.
21 MS. WEST: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further
23 JUDGE KWON: Before we remove this document from the monitor,
24 probably you will tender this document?
25 MS. WEST: Yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit it as next Prosecution exhibit.
2 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number P6042, Your Honours.
3 JUDGE KWON: The English translation of this document,
4 Mr. Bambarez, says that you were lieutenant-colonel at the time. Is it
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.
7 JUDGE KWON: What was your rank at the time?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In June 1992 I started out as a
9 commander of a platoon and then I became second lieutenant and remained
10 in that rank until the end of the war.
11 JUDGE KWON: So "p.por" should read "second lieutenant" instead
12 of "lieutenant-colonel"?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
15 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Excellency.
17 May I call up photograph 2627, please.
18 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] You were asked, Mr. Bambarez, whether you had
20 noticed Muslim snipers shooting from the red building. I should like to
21 ask you, were they able to shoot both from sniper rifles and even
22 automatic weapons reaching the other side across the Miljacka river?
23 A. They were able to fire with all infantry weapons across the
24 Miljacka river from that building, including sniper rifles. But I said
25 that during the time I was there I never observed them doing it.
1 Q. Thank you. Were they able to shoot from the Unioninvest
2 building, that is, the white building?
3 A. Certainly.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get now P6041, please.
5 Thank you.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Could you tell us, is this area visible from the river without
8 any special sights or is this picture taken with some kind of zoom?
9 A. If we have noted that the distance between the Osmice plateau and
10 the river is 2 to 2 and a half kilometres, I do not think that you can
11 see this without using a zoom because you can see here very nicely these
12 two buildings and the Osmice houses. So I don't think that using the
13 normal lens of a camera you can get a picture like this.
14 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload unmarked picture, the previous
15 version, which was 65 number of which was 24311. So instead of putting
16 the question to the witness, I think Ms. West could clarify whether this
17 picture was taken with zoom or not.
18 MS. WEST: Indeed it was, Your Honour, and I thought I had done
19 that in the beginning, but it was taken with a zoom lens.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 Please proceed.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tried, Your Excellency, but you
23 have instructed me about re-direct.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Bambarez, with the assistance of the usher, could you please
1 mark where the Serb and where the Muslim lines were. Can we see the
2 Muslim lines on this picture? And who lived in these houses that we see
3 close up?
4 A. The houses that you see below the road leading to Pale were all
5 occupied by Muslims.
6 Q. Who controlled this area?
7 A. Muslims.
8 Q. Could you please use red and blue to draw the line indicating
9 where both sides' trenches were.
10 A. As far as Serb forces are concerned in this area, I can mark only
11 that they were in the Osmice boarding house.
12 Q. What about Muslim positions?
13 A. This area is an area of rather steep slopes and they were
14 somewhere here around their own houses.
15 Q. Would you as a soldier say that there is enough range for a Zolja
16 or an Osa hand-held rocket-launcher from the Muslim positions to the Serb
18 MS. WEST: Objection.
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's beyond the scope of cross-examination.
20 How does it arise from her cross-examination?
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Question -- then my question is: Would, Mr. Bambarez, as a
23 soldier put a tank on the forward front line within the range of
24 anti-armour weapons ?
25 A. Seeing that I'm not a professional soldier and I only have
1 experience from the previous war, I would not put a tank on the forward
2 front line nor would we need one. In view of the lay of the land and our
3 own positions, infantry weapons were quite enough for our regular duties
4 and sufficient to protect us. And I would not put a tank there.
5 Q. Thank you. But would one be able to see a cannonball propulsed
6 through the barrel of a tank, or rather, a shell?
7 A. I don't know. How could you possibly see a shell from the barrel
8 of a tank? God knows what the velocity is. I doubt it.
9 Q. Now I'll read to you from transcript page 1980 from line 4 in
10 English - you will get interpretation - that's my question.
11 [In English] "But you said that you saw a tank and you even saw a
12 shell being fired from the tank?
13 "A. Yes, and the shell could be seen as it flew towards the
14 apartment buildings there.
15 "Q. But, Madam, that shell is fired at the speed of 1.300 metres
16 per second?
17 "A. Yes, unfortunately.
18 "Q. So how can you see that?
19 "A. But you can, you can see exactly how it's pulled and how it
20 goes out -- how it's fired and the shell is fired from the -- that
22 [Interpretation] What can you say about this? The lady says from
23 a distance of 2 and a half kilometres she not the only saw a tank but
24 also the shell coming from the barrel of the tank?
25 A. That's simply ridiculous.
1 Q. Thank you. Can you put a date on this photograph and sign it.
2 You've marked on it Serb and Muslim positions.
3 A. What am I supposed to --
4 THE ACCUSED: Could you help him --
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Is your pen still active?
7 JUDGE KWON: Could you put a date, 12.12.12, and your signature.
8 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, next Defence exhibit.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Document receives number D2 -- just a second.
11 D2632, Your Honours.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Just one more question.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. When you provided your statement to the Defence team, when was it
15 the first time you did it?
16 A. Sometime at the beginning of this year.
17 Q. Thank you. Were you shown all these photos at that time?
18 A. Some photos were shown to me. Until you show them all to me now,
19 I can't say that I saw them all.
20 Q. Thank you, Mr. Bambarez, for coming to The Hague to testify.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for
22 this witness, Your Honours.
23 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Bambarez. That concludes your
25 evidence. On behalf of this Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your
1 coming to The Hague to give it. Now you're free to go.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
3 JUDGE KWON: We'll rise all together. We're going to have a
4 break for 45 minutes and resume at 25 past 1.00.
5 [The witness withdrew]
6 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.36 p.m.
7 [The witness entered court]
8 --- On resuming at 1.28 p.m.
9 JUDGE KWON: Would the witness take the solemn declaration,
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
12 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
13 WITNESS: MILORAD SEHOVAC
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Sehovac. Please be seated and make
16 yourself comfortable.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Sehovac, before you start giving evidence, I
19 would like to draw your attention to a particular rule here at the
20 Tribunal. Under this rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a
21 question from the Prosecution or the accused or from the Judges if you
22 believe that your answer will incriminate you. When I say "incriminate,"
23 I mean that something you say may amount to an admission of your guilt
24 for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you have committed
25 an offence. However, even if you think your answer will incriminate you
1 and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the power to
2 compel you to answer the question. But in such a case, the Tribunal will
3 make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way shall not be used
4 as evidence in other case against you for any offence other than false
5 testimony. Do you understand what I have just told you?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand you fully.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Sehovac.
8 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Excellency.
10 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
11 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Sehovac.
12 A. Good afternoon, Mr. President.
13 Q. I have to ask you to take -- make a little break after my
14 question. I have to remind myself of the same thing. This will allow
15 the interpreters to interpret our words properly. Perhaps you could pay
16 attention to the screen. When the letters stop moving the interpretation
17 is over and you can start. Did you provide my Defence team a statement?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6901 in
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Do you see that statement on the screen in front of you?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. Did you read the statement and did you sign it?
25 A. Yes, I did.
1 Q. Does the statement reflect your words accurately?
2 A. Yes, it does fully.
3 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today in the
4 courtroom, the same ones that were put to you by the team, would your
5 answers be the same?
6 A. Yes, they would.
7 Q. Thank you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I tender the
9 statement into evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter?
10 JUDGE KWON: And how about the associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?
11 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. I think we managed to get all
12 of these on the 65 ter list.
13 JUDGE KWON: They were on the 65 ter list?
14 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, I believe so.
15 JUDGE KWON: I take it there are several documents that were not
16 translated? Is my understanding correct?
17 MR. ROBINSON: I haven't been made aware of that at all.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: There's one, Your Honour, at least. I believe
20 JUDGE KWON: I checked several days ago, but I had five of
21 them -- six of them. What's the number, Mr. Nicholls? Good afternoon to
22 you. What's the number that you have?
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Good afternoon, Your Honours. 1D0675 from page 23
24 of the revised statement. That one I couldn't find.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mm-hmm. How about 1D8438, shall we upload it?
1 I have to correct my statement. There are two or three documents
2 that were not translated and the others were not uploaded on e-court, but
3 let us check. Do we have 1D8438?
4 MR. ROBINSON: That doesn't look like it's uploaded on my
6 JUDGE KWON: No. And how about 1D8446A?
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, we also don't have that uploaded apparently.
8 JUDGE KWON: How about 1D20311 referred to in para 70?
9 MR. ROBINSON: Apparently we don't have a translation for that
11 JUDGE KWON: And further, in para 53 the statement refers to
12 1D8424 and para 54 refers to 8425, i.e., 1D8425. The Chamber does not
13 see these two documents as constituting indispensable and inseparable
14 part of the statement. So if the accused is minded to tender those two
15 documents he should lead live. And in addition to those two documents,
16 those statements -- those documents untranslated and not uploaded will
17 not be admitted at the moment. All the other remaining associated
18 exhibits will be admitted and given numbers in due course by the
19 Registrar. But before that, shall we give the number for his 92 ter
21 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6901 receives number D2633,
22 Your Honours.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
24 Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. I'm
1 not complaining, but I would like you to understand that this is not
2 through ill-will of mine but through the lack of personnel. Even the few
3 people that I have, who are exhausted, cannot keep up with the pace of
4 work that has been imposed on us.
5 I'm now going to read Colonel Sehovac's statement summary in
7 [In English] Milorad Sehovac graduated from the land forces
8 military academy, with a specialisation in infantry and the command staff
9 tactical training school in 1990. He took over the duty of brigade
10 commander of the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade around 18th of
11 August, 1992. From June the 9 to July the 3rd, 1995, he had spinal
12 surgery at the military medical academy in Belgrade. From 3rd of July
13 until September 1995, he was in -- on sick leave. In mid-September 1995,
14 he was transferred - due to the limited health capacity - to the
15 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command, as duty operations officer in the
16 headquarters, where he stayed until mid-July 1996 when the
17 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was disbanded. On April the 15th, 2002,
18 Colonel Milorad Sehovac retired due to the operation with the rank of
20 In the period between April 1992 and December 1995, the 1st Corps
21 of BH army was in the part of the city of Sarajevo under the control of
22 the Muslim authorities. These forces had units on the forward defence
23 line, as well as support forces in the depth of their territory in the
24 city. Unit of -- the unit of Colonel Sehovac had information that the
25 1st Corps of BH army has positions in civilian zones and civilian
1 features. Neither in Hrasnica nor in Dobrinja was there any exclusively
2 civilian zone without enemy firing positions or units. Superior command
3 informed the UN about this by lodging protests.
4 There were two basic objectives set by the Sarajevo-Romanija
5 Corps regarding the city of Sarajevo: First, protection of the territory
6 and protection of the population. One of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps
7 objectives was to blockade of the forces of the 1st Corps of BH army in
8 the city in order to prevent them from being engaged on other fronts in
9 BH. The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps carried out active defensive operation
10 and activity. His brigade partly carried out offensive activity
11 exclusively for tactical improvement of positions.
12 When carrying out combat operations, neither him nor his brigade
13 understood those actions as part of a systematic or widespread attack on
14 civilians. He heard about offers of the general headquarters civilian
15 authorities and Dr. Karadzic himself for Sarajevo to be completely
16 demilitarised. The Butmir airport was handed over before his arrival to
17 the brigade, it was handed over for the humanitarian reasons and to serve
18 the needs of the United Nations forces.
19 Superior commands or civilian authorities informed his brigade
20 about the provisions of the international law of war and humanitarian law
21 during consultations and meetings which he attended, it was stressed and
22 ordered to act in accordance with the Geneva Conventions. Dr. Karadzic
23 personally insisted and demanded this every time. Orders from superior
24 command and civilian authorities also stated that if fire was opened
25 against civilians, investigations had to be carried out and perpetrators
1 punished. But there were no such case in his unit. He also knows about
2 efforts to enable the flow of electricity, gas, and water to civilians in
3 Sarajevo, but this was under the purview of civilian authorities. He has
4 knowledge that Dr. Karadzic personally strove to create normal living
5 conditions for the Muslims who were in Serbian territory and to ensure
6 the same living conditions for those on the other side of the front line.
7 The brigade of Colonel Sehovac took preventive measures to avoid
8 opening fire on civilian features. Action was only taken against
9 observed combat positions and only when fired at. They did not open fire
10 on civilian targets and if they knew there was a danger of causing
11 civilian casualties, fire was stopped. Never he nor members of his unit
12 or higher or lower commands had any intention of causing civilian
13 casualties or terrorising or exerting psychological terror on civilians
14 under the control of the Muslim authorities. He never issued, nor
15 received, from superior commands or civilian authorities, any oral or
16 written orders to carry out attacks against civilians or means of the
17 public transport. On the contrary, superior command ordered - and so did
18 he - that civilians in the city under Muslim control should not be
20 Conversely, civilians in his zone of responsibility were
21 subjected to direct sniper, mortar, and artillery fire by the Muslim
22 forces on the daily basis, killing children, civilians, and soldiers, and
23 there were cases of enemy sabotage groups carrying out raids and
24 mutilating civilians. There were also rumours that Muslim snipers opened
25 fire against the civilians in the city under their own, Muslim, control.
1 Muslim units of the 1st BH Army Corps were supposed to be controlled by
2 UNPROFOR, but this control was poor and UNPROFOR showed inactivity in
3 preventing provocations from these units.
4 Most units in the brigade of Colonel Sehovac were reserve forces
5 and there were very few professional servicemen. The level of training
6 depended on the period of war. In tactical actions, where proficiency of
7 the unit was required, there were a lot of striking weaknesses. The lack
8 of professional command officers affected the quality of control,
9 command, and inspections of the brigade. Problems with the exercising of
10 effective control were partly present. There were no specially organised
11 sniper units in his brigade. Ammunition levels were critical and orders
12 from higher commands insisted on sparing use.
13 His brigade rarely had contact with humanitarian convoys, but it
14 let civilians, for example, Croats go through its zone of responsibility
15 when the conflict between Muslims and Croats -- Croatian forces broke
16 out. He had information about the abuse of humanitarian convoys for
17 military purposes for units of the 1st Corps of BH army. Most
18 humanitarian aid goods went to the units instead to the civilians or were
19 sold at the black market. These convoys were also used to smuggle
20 weapons for the use of the 1st Corps of BH army.
21 Colonel Milorad Sehovac had information about the existence of
22 production of modified aerial bombs for striking targets on the ground
23 which were in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps arsenal, but his brigade did
24 not have them. He also had information about the modification of
25 missiles for striking targets on the ground by units of the 1st BH Army
1 Corps. He knows that there were no fuel air bombs in the
2 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps or JNA arsenal.
3 There were no paramilitary units in the zone of responsibility of
4 his brigade, and higher commands and civilian authorities were vigorously
5 opposed to it. He had a good co-operation with the Ilidza and Trnovo
6 municipality. He never obtained any information that there was a Serbian
7 municipal policy of persecution, killing, or discrimination based on
8 religious or ethnic grounds in the zone of responsibility of his brigade.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, in the meantime I have some more
10 information for you about some of these associated exhibits. 1D8438 is
11 admitted already as P1208. I'm told that 1D8446A has been released. For
12 1D20311, we do have a translation. It hasn't yet been uploaded but it's
13 being sent to the parties by e-mail, and we still don't have a
14 translation for 126275.
15 JUDGE KWON: Even for those documents the translation of which
16 was now released -- yes, for that document still the accused --
17 Mr. Karadzic needs to lead live if he so wishes.
18 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
19 Thank you for the information, Mr. Robinson.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency. I
21 would like to call up 1D20311 in e-court.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Mr. Sehovac, do you have a copy of your statement in front of
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. Please pay attention to paragraph 70 in your statement. Could
2 you please tell us --
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Excuse me --
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
5 MR. NICHOLLS: Why is he reading his statement? If he's going to
6 ask him about the document, why doesn't he just ask him about the
7 document. There's no more leading way than to go through the statement.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Mr. Karadzic, when I said that you need to
9 lead live, then why don't you put questions directly and put the document
10 later on?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I apologise. This is a
12 novelty. This is a new experience for me so I need some time.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Colonel, sir, were you in a position to bring your unit to full
15 combat-preparedness and what was the occasion?
16 A. Yes, I was often in such situations to have my unit in the state
17 of full combat-readiness, especially when the enemy was preparing its
18 offensives. Due to the shortage of personnel which is reflected in the
19 order that is on the screen, we were forced to mobilise certain units on
20 work obligation and those people who were employed in the bodies of
21 authority, that's how we formed platoons and reinforced our battalions.
22 The only reason for that was the shortage of personnel. Why was that the
23 case? Because --
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- the location of our --
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm sorry to interrupt and no offence to you,
3 Mr. Sehovac, but I would prefer that this be done without the statement
4 so we can test his recollection of the document. He's reading from the
6 JUDGE KWON: Oh.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I can easily close the
9 So why did we engage those units? The brigade was mobilised from
10 a very small area, Gojkovic [as interpreted], Grlici, and Kupres was that
11 area, as well as the local commune of Kijevo. The average density of the
12 population there was 5.000 inhabitants, and our strength was up to 70
13 per cent throughout the war, Your Honour.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Thank you. I'm waiting for the interpretation to be over. Tell
16 me, did you mobilise Muslims and Croats or did you only mobilise Serbs?
17 A. Those were purely Serb settlements. As far as I know in the
18 local commune of Vojkovici there was only one Muslim family before the
19 war. There was some Muslim families residing in Kasindol, but that was
20 outside of my area of responsibility. Therefore, we recruited only
22 Q. Thank you. Tell me, please, how often were you in a position to
23 raise the level of combat-readiness to a higher level?
24 A. Let me just add something to my previous answer. In my unit
25 there was only one Muslim throughout the war. When the war was over he
1 went to Hrasnica and I also had a few Croats in my unit. How often was
2 that? It depended on the combat situation at hand. There was a need to
3 do that because the brigade occupied a special place in a built-up area
4 and its position was tactically very unfavourable.
5 Above the brigade, above the zone of defence of the brigade,
6 Muslim units held a line of some 6 kilometres in a built-up area. They
7 towered over the brigade and the distance in altitude between the two was
8 about 250 to 300 metres. The area was wooded, intersected. The gradient
9 was over 45 degrees, and we organised our defence in the field. And they
10 could see us really well, and that's how they could open fire on us and
11 that was the only reason we did that.
12 Q. Thank you. Did you have in this area ambitions or mount any
13 operations to expand your zone to include Hrasnica and some Muslim
15 A. All combat operations carried out by the brigade were exclusively
16 defensive in nature except for individual actions which I'll be free to
17 say can be qualified as active combat operations, which means that on
18 certain axes we carried out raids and incursions and sabotage actions
19 against the forward lines of the enemy and we never engaged more than 100
20 men in such active actions. For certain activities we would second units
21 one to two platoons in strength. We never attacked a Muslim-populated
22 area. Ahead of the defence area of the brigade, the only Muslim
23 settlements were Butmir and Hrasnica, and we never had any ambition to
24 attack them nor did we attack them.
25 Q. Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now call up 1D20311.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you tell us, please, what kind of information did you get
5 in mid-August 1994 and what does this document mean?
6 A. Can I use this, Mr. President?
7 Q. Yes, it's your document now.
8 A. Because the Prosecution showed it to me before. Yes, this is my
9 document. It's dated 14 August 1994. It's based on an order from the
10 command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps five days earlier pending an enemy
11 offensive we were expecting named Step by Step. I as brigade commander
12 undertook all activities for all available forces in the area of
13 responsibility of the brigade to be placed in a state of full
14 combat-readiness, to carry out its tasks. We see under number 2 that two
15 platoons were to be formed from the personnel having work obligation with
16 personnel from the Famos enterprise. Men were to be taken to reinforce
17 the 2nd Infantry Battalion. The 1st Infantry Battalion was to be
18 reinforced with --
19 Q. Colonel, I would like to hear the interpretation of all the 15
20 points, but I would like to hear from you whether this information you
21 had was correct. Did this offensive really happen in 1994?
22 A. Yes, but I can't see points 9 and 12 on this page.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page.
24 JUDGE KWON: Probably your question about 9 and 12 were not
25 translated. Let's --
1 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The speakers are both
2 speaking too fast and overlapping.
3 JUDGE KWON: I just heard from the interpreters you are speaking
4 too fast and do not put a pause between the answer and your question.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise. We will try to make a
6 pause between question and answer.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. And I ask the same of you, Colonel. First of all, tell me
9 whether this information you had was correct and did the offensive happen
10 in August of 1994?
11 A. Yes, the information was correct.
12 Q. Thank you. Could you please explain to the Chamber the gist of
13 paragraphs 9 and 12. What I'm interested in is what kind of preparation
14 this was for what kind of action and for what reasons.
15 A. Paragraph 9, the task is issued to the chief of artillery,
16 Major Momcilo Gorancic to be ready to fire on targets on the ground and
17 in the air. Since we had no artillery units, the brigade had mostly
18 120-millimetre mortars, Gorancic got the task to use a mixed artillery
19 battalion of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised Brigade to establish
20 co-ordinated action and plan fire on the eastern slopes of the Igman
21 mountain. And in the area of the Sarajevo field, Sarajevsko Polje, from
22 where we expected an attack.
23 Q. Could you look at paragraph 12 now and show us how many snipers
24 you had and what their tasks were.
25 A. Paragraph 12, I'm issuing the task to battalion commanders to
1 prepare their snipers, machine-gunners, and Browning gunners to
2 successfully destroy enemy snipers and fire on detected targets of the
3 enemy in their defence areas. The brigade had 17 snipers made in
4 Yugoslavia M76 calibre, 7.9-millimetres. And these snipers were used in
5 combat operations exclusively in places where their combat qualities and
6 purpose could be used to best advantage, that means in open space,
7 generally speaking, when the enemy was removed from the forward end of
8 the barrage fire, mainly on the slopes of the Igman in a place called
9 Rozice [phoen] and on the northern-eastern slopes of Bjelasnica and
10 Treskavica mountains.
11 Q. Are these populated areas? What kind of terrain was it? Were
12 there any settlements?
13 A. This is rugged mountain terrain, altitude ranging from 700 to
14 2.780 metres. There was not a single populated place in that part of the
15 brigade's defence area.
16 Q. Thank you, Colonel.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this document?
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification pending
19 English translation.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D20311 receives number D2634, MFI'd,
21 Your Honours.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Colonel, did you receive any working visits by the corps command
25 and the UNPROFOR command?
1 A. Yes. The corps command made scheduled inspections of units and
2 based on perceived shortcomings issued tasks with clear dead-lines for
3 these shortcomings to be redressed in order to improve combat-readiness
4 of the brigade. And concerning the UNPROFOR, we did receive their visits
5 throughout the war. And the UNPROFOR was particularly present after the
6 Lukavac 93 operation when the brigade held positions between the area
7 covered by the UNPROFOR and the area covered by the Muslim brigade. So
8 that would be the period between 14 August 1993 when all operations
9 ceased on Mount Igman.
10 Q. What was your attitude, the attitude of your command and brigade,
11 to cease-fires?
12 A. We observed cease-fires and honoured them to the extent we were
13 not losing personnel and live targets. We only opened fire when the
14 enemy fired first and inflicted losses upon us. You can see that from
15 the documents of the corps command - and I hope you have these. And I
16 can say regarding both the superior command and the UNPROFOR, we had a
17 decent and honest relationship.
18 Q. Did the corps command verify your observation of the cease-fire?
19 A. Yes, they did. In certain periods - and that happened constantly
20 although not every day - they would send commanding officers from the
21 corps command to check the combat positions of the brigade with the basic
22 objective to establish whether we were complying with the ordered
23 measures at the time of cease-fires.
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Mr. Karadzic is kindly
25 asked to repeat the number. He again did not make a pause.
1 JUDGE KWON: They couldn't hear you, Mr. Karadzic.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D6275.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Could you tell us what this document is about?
5 A. Just a moment. I need to look through. This is a report from
6 commanding officer Major Milivoj Solar who was subordinated to the corps
7 command. And on 9 May 1993 he inspected some of the units of the
8 Sarajevo Brigade. And he notes, as I'm reading this is the fourth
9 paragraph from the top, Mr. Solar checked on the 3rd Battalion and toured
10 all the positions of the companies in that battalion. It is said that
11 they received an order from the brigade command to cease fire and they
12 passed this order down. So the order went from the brigade command all
13 the way down the chain. But then it is said that the order is fully
14 observed on our side, and all violations by the enemy are regularly
15 reported to the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. Other things are
16 noted here that I don't think are relevant to your question. So we see
17 clearly from this document that there is full observation of the
18 cease-fire by the 3rd Battalion of the 2nd Sarajevo Brigade.
19 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us - perhaps it's not important but it
20 may give us a full picture - what was the ethnicity of this major?
21 A. This was an honourable officer of Croat ethnicity. He remained
22 with us until the end of the war and he lives in Novi Sad today and we
23 still meet quite often.
24 Q. Was this inspection visit an exception or not?
25 A. It was a planned, scheduled, organised visit by a superior
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I tender this
3 exhibit and I'm giving up on the other two.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll mark it for identification.
5 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6275 receives number D2635, MFI'd,
6 Your Honours.
7 MR. ROBINSON: And, Mr. President, we won't be tendering 1D8424
8 or 1D8425.
9 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. How about 1D8446A?
10 MR. ROBINSON: That's a map, Mr. President.
11 JUDGE KWON: Okay. There's no opposition with respect to that?
12 Yes. That map will be added to the admitted associated exhibits.
13 Then you're done, Mr. Karadzic?
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.
15 JUDGE KWON: Colonel Sehovac, as you have noted now that most of
16 your -- all of your -- your evidence in chief in most part has been
17 admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony, and now you'll be
18 cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,
19 Mr. Nicholls.
20 Please continue.
21 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honour.
22 Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:
23 Q. Sir, I want to briefly go through some of the chronology of your
24 military career that's left out of your statement, the same period we
25 talked about on Monday. Okay?
1 A. Yes, go ahead.
2 Q. And I don't want to -- because of the time I don't want to spend
3 a lot of time talking about all the different tasks you were doing, but
4 just what your positions were. Now, in your statement in paragraph 1 we
5 have -- you don't need to look at it, we have in 1990 you completed a
6 two-year course in tactical school -- tactical staff command. You were
7 then appointed as an assistant commander for a border battalion. That
8 went until approximately August -- mid-August 1991. From mid-August 1991
9 to 16 July you were in Brcko as chief of a sector that was not a combat
10 unit but a territorial organ dealing with training, mobilisation, sort of
11 administrative things of that nature. On or around 19 of May, 1992, you
12 became a member of the VRS. From around 16 July to 5th of August you
13 told me you were Chief of Staff of the 1st Posavina Brigade in Brcko.
14 And then on 18th of August, 1992, you became commander of the Sarajevo
15 Light Infantry Brigade, the 2nd, which we see in paragraph 2 of your
16 statement and then it continues through your retirement. Is that correct
17 how I've got the chronology?
18 A. Yes. I do have a few corrections, though. I became assistant,
19 not deputy commander of the -- that border battalion because border
20 service is idiosyncratic. It took me seven months to be trained for the
21 job and then the war began. I was not chief of sector. I was chief of
22 military department. It is a military territorial department linked to
23 the Ministry of Defence through the military district of Tuzla, and it
24 doesn't deal with training as you said. It keeps records of military
25 conscripts, it recruits, sends men to the army, and assigns military
1 conscripts who have done their military service to military units of the
2 former JNA, Territorial Defence, war time police, and other defence
3 organisations under the then-system of All People's Defence. And I did
4 not finish my career during the war. I went to the General Staff and
5 later to the Army of Yugoslavia. I got retired on the 15th of April --
6 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the year.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I finished my service in the
8 staff of the command of the Novi Sad Corps. And I have one more thing to
9 note. We need to clear this up. After the departure of officers from
10 the territory of former republics on the 19th of May, 1992, I in the
11 Brcko garrison, in addition to my regular duties of chief of military
12 department, I also discharged duties of the Chief of Staff of the
13 1st Posavina Brigade. As far as duties of Chief of Staff of the brigade
14 are concerned, I began with that as of 16 July 1992, when military
15 departments were abolished and their responsibilities were transferred to
16 the sections of the Ministry of Defence --
17 MR. NICHOLLS:
18 Q. -- okay --
19 A. -- that was established in municipalities. That is correct.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to correct the transcript.
21 Line 25 and on page 91 and beginning of 92, he said he was not assistant
22 but deputy commander and he was retired in 2002.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you.
24 Q. Now -- are you finished?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. Okay.
2 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I please have up 24274.
3 Q. And I'm going back to your time in Brcko now. I'm going to show
4 you a document and then another document and ask you some questions about
6 MR. NICHOLLS: I need e-court page 124, please.
7 Q. Sir, this is in English. It's only about one sentence, two
8 sentences, so I'll read it out to you. This is from paragraph 327. And
9 what this document is is the judgement in the trial of Mr. Krajisnik in
10 this Tribunal. This is from the section entitled "municipality crimes."
11 And I want to read out to you this part from paragraph 327 which deals
12 with Brcko when you were there.
13 "On 10 May," this is 1992, "one of the workers detained at the
14 fire station was shot on the orders of JNA Captain Sehovac. Detainees
15 were told that anyone not on the Serb side would face the same fate."
16 And I'll give you a chance to answer that in one minute because I
17 want to show you another document that goes with it.
18 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 24272, please, e-court page 17.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before that, could we get a
20 reference, 745, to see who that is? Could we raise this a bit?
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I object to the objection.
22 JUDGE KWON: You can do that yourself.
23 MR. NICHOLLS:
24 Q. All right, sir, now what you have in front of you - and I don't
25 know if you've heard about this before - it's testimony from a witness in
1 the Krajisnik trial under oath --
2 JUDGE KWON: I think this is referred to in the footnotes.
3 MR. NICHOLLS: Correct, Your Honours.
4 Q. 20th of April, 2004. This is a man who was detained at the fire
5 station in Brcko, a firefighter, and at the bottom of the page he talks
6 about one of the detainees called Milorad Sehovac. "I think he was the
7 commander of some sort of special unit with the JNA." That's at lines 22
8 to 23. You can laugh later.
9 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we turn the page, please.
10 Q. We see here on line 5 discussing the 10th of May, the witness was
11 asked if Major Sehovac came to the fire station. And because of the time
12 I'm going to have to move quickly. I'll summarise this rather than going
13 through it line by line because of the time. But this witness stated
14 that you, Milorad Sehovac, came to the fire station where men were
15 called, were being held. You demanded to know who had made a phone call
16 to Muslim-held territory. You said that if these detained men didn't
17 tell you who had made the phone call, you would kill them all. One of
18 the men, a Croat, Franjo Vugrincic, admitted he'd made the call. You
19 questioned him. You ordered that he be taken away. You ordered that he
20 be killed. The detainees heard a shot and they never saw him again.
21 That's the basis for the finding in the trial judgement I showed you.
22 Now, my question is: Your statement taken a year ago and then
23 re-taken once you got to The Hague described your career in 1990, then it
24 skipped to August 1992, then it went all the way through to your
25 retirement and where you are now in Novi Sad and included your surgery,
1 but you completely left out any mention of you ever being in Brcko in
2 1992. Did you do that because of this murder, which you are alleged to
3 have ordered and which there has been evidence of before this Tribunal?
4 A. May I answer? Mr. Prosecutor, first of all, I didn't skip
5 anything. In paragraph 2 of my statement I stated exactly the period
6 when I was in Brcko, from mid-August 1991 until 15 August 1992. Second,
7 I don't know who gave that statement. Anyone can say anything, but from
8 9 May until 20th May I relocated the military department of Brcko to the
9 village of Piparci [phoen], where it was based on the co-operative house
10 on the orders of the commander of the military department,
11 Milorad Gavric. For that reason, or rather, because I had in my military
12 department a total of 16 people including two officers and 14 civilians,
13 and I had one unit of military police commanded by Zeljko Momic. So I
14 couldn't be in two places at the same time and that statement is simply
16 Furthermore, I worked in a military territorial body and I had
17 absolutely no powers over operative units at the time, JNA or TO or
18 whichever. I maintain that this statement is false.
19 Q. Could we have your statement up, please, that's 1D06901 --
20 JUDGE KWON: If it is --
21 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll be quick --
22 JUDGE KWON: -- [overlapping speakers] -- shall we adjourn.
23 MR. NICHOLLS: Whatever you want.
24 JUDGE KWON: Given the trial after this we need to adjourn right
1 Mr. Sehovac, we'll adjourn for today and resume tomorrow at 9.00.
2 In the meantime, I would like to advise you not to discuss with anybody
3 else about your testimony. Do you understand that, sir?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, thank you. I understand.
5 JUDGE KWON: The hearing is adjourned.
6 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.28 p.m.,
7 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of
8 December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.