Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 31357

 1                           Thursday, 13 December 2012

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Judge Morrison is

 7     indisposed today, so we will be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis.

 8             Good morning, Mr. Nicholls.  Please continue.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good morning, Your Honours.  Thank you.

10             Just preliminarily if I could correct an ambiguous line in the

11     transcript from yesterday.  At page 31354 when I was summarising the

12     testimony of the witness in the Krajisnik trial, at lines 5 to 6

13     yesterday I said:

14             "At the bottom of the page he talks about one of the detainees

15     called Milorad Sehovac."

16             I didn't say that very well.  What it says in the transcript is

17     that one of the detainees made a telephone call to military officer named

18     Milorad Sehovac, that's what it says in the transcript, not that one of

19     the detainees had that name.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21                           WITNESS:  MILORAD SEHOVAC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

24        Q.   Good morning, sir.  Can you hear me?

25        A.   Good morning, I can hear you very well.

Page 31358

 1        Q.   Good.  Now, yesterday when we left off I was about to ask you a

 2     question and we ran out of time.  But you said yesterday on page 31355 at

 3     line 5:

 4             "In paragraph 2 of my statement I stated exactly the period I was

 5     in Brcko, from mid-August 1991 to 15 August 1992."

 6             So could we please bring up your statement 1D06901.  And I see

 7     you've got a hard copy in front of you, is that right, of your statement?

 8        A.   Yes, it is.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10        A.   And I would like to state the following --

11        Q.   Wait for the question -- wait for the question --

12        A.   Please --

13        Q.   The question is:  Where in your statement in paragraph -- where

14     in paragraph 2 does it say you were in Brcko from -- at all, let alone in

15     1991 and 1992?

16        A.   I issued orders.  I handed over five documents, some of which are

17     originals.  I handed them over to the Defence on the first day when I

18     arrived and they were uploaded in the e-court of The Hague Tribunal.  In

19     addition to that, to tell the whole truth I can tell you that I have all

20     the five copies of those orders.  One of them is the certificate of the

21     command of the East Bosnian Corps, which says expressly that from the

22     19th of May, 1991, until the 15th of August, 1992, I was a member of the

23     East Bosnia Corps.

24             Furthermore, I have the original of an order by the minister of

25     defence of Republika Srpska, General Subotic, by which I was appointed

Page 31359

 1     the commander of the Sarajevo brigade.  Furthermore, I enclosed the

 2     original discharge letter of the military academy from the 3rd to 9 July,

 3     1995.  And the fourth document that I submitted is an order pursuant to

 4     which I was transferred from the Main Staff of Republika Srpska to the

 5     Army of Yugoslavia.  And the fifth document that I enclosed is an order

 6     by the Chief of the General Staff of the Army of Yugoslavia dated 15

 7     April 2002 by which I was pensioned off --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sehovac --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and I handed all of that --

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure if you understood the question.  I'll

11     ask Mr. Nicholls to repeat his question.  Please concentrate on answering

12     the question.

13             Yes, Mr. Nicholls, please.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

15        Q.   The question was:  You said yesterday in this courtroom:

16             "In paragraph 2 of your statement I stated exactly the period

17     when I was in Brcko, from mid-August 1991 until 15 August 1992."

18             Understand, I'm not disputing that you were in Brcko during that

19     period.  My question is:  Where in paragraph 2 of your statement does it

20     say that?  Do you agree with me, there's no mention of Brcko whatsoever

21     in your statement?

22        A.   The only reason for that is the fact that as I followed the

23     situation, I saw that this was about Sarajevo, so I mentioned only those

24     duties that I discharged in the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

25        Q.   Okay.  So then you agree with me -- stop --

Page 31360

 1        A.   And that is the exclusive reason why --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  So you agree that there's no mention about Brcko in

 3     your statement?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The question -- Mr. Nicholls asked the question

 6     because you answered differently.  You said yesterday it is included in

 7     your statement, which was not true now.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 9        Q.   And I see you have your statement in front of you.  I noticed

10     yesterday when you were looking at it - and I didn't have time - that it

11     appeared to have a lot of handwriting on the back pages, a lot of notes.

12     Would you mind if I took a look at your statement, please, if I could

13     have the assistance of the usher.  Well, you showed me the last page is

14     blank, but the back of page 1, for the record, has a lot of writing on it

15     including something about Brcko.  The back of page 2 has a whole bunch of

16     stuff written about Brcko and I see Hrvati, Muslimani.  The back of page

17     3 has a whole bunch of writing.  The back of page 4 has about a third of

18     the page writing.  The back of page 5 is full of writing about Sarajevo.

19     And there are other notes on here.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I would ask for a copy of this and I

21     would have a colleague who can read Serbian read take a look at it while

22     I continue my cross-examination.  If I could make a photocopy with the

23     usher's help.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any observation, Mr. Robinson?

25             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President, I have no objection to that.

Page 31361

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  And if we need a break to copy it -- I don't mind

 3     if he needs the statement he feels for the rest of the questions,

 4     otherwise I can give him a clean copy of his statement in his language

 5     that has no writing on it, though.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise for five minutes.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 8                           --- Break taken at 9.11 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 9.21 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls, please continue.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Okay, sir, just a couple more questions on this topic.  Yesterday

13     at page 31355 you said that from 9 until 20th of May you were in - and we

14     have it written as Piparci - can you please spell that village where you

15     say you were.  Is it Piperci?

16        A.   Piperci, P-i-p-e-r-c-i, east of Brcko in the direction of

17     Bijeljina.

18        Q.   All right.  Thank you.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 24347, please, in e-court.

20        Q.   And while that's coming up, I see you have your statement in

21     front of you again.  I have no problem with that, but if you need to

22     refer to it let me know --

23        A.   Mr. President, I can return this statement.  I have no need for

24     it.

25        Q.   Let me finish.  You can keep it.  Just if you want to refer to

Page 31362

 1     it, let me know so that we have a record of when you're testifying just

 2     from your memory and when you need it to check something.  Okay?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Do you understand that, sir?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand that,

 5     Your Honour, and I'll tell you why.  I prepared myself for Sarajevo.

 6     After I had an interview with the Prosecutor's office two days ago, I

 7     wrote this down from memory about Brcko.  In order to tell the truth

 8     here, I tried to remember some events and some dates.  I prepared myself

 9     thoroughly for Sarajevo based on the materials that were available to me.

10     For the Defence, I prepared myself exclusively for Sarajevo.  That's the

11     only reason.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, Mr. Sehovac.  When did you write down

13     those handwritten notes on your statement?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] After the interview with the

15     Prosecutor.  That conversation lasted for about 45 minutes.  I thought

16     that it would be necessary for me to try and remember as much as I could.

17     At the end of the day I don't need this statement at all.  You know,

18     there were a lot of events 20 years ago and you have to remember

19     everything.  I changed two or three positions during the war and I was

20     taken by surprise when I heard that Brcko would also be discussed as part

21     of this Court's agenda.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We don't have any problem with you keeping the

23     statement with you, but when you need to refer to your handwritten notes,

24     please let us know.  That's the only point Mr. Nicholls was making.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Judge.

Page 31363

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.  Now I

 2     understand.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:

 4        Q.   Now, sir, this is a map of the area.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  And it wasn't on my list, Your Honours, but I

 6     didn't know this name would come up.  I've provided it to my colleagues.

 7        Q.   Sir, could you take a look at the map here.  You said Piperci was

 8     just east of Brcko.  I think you'll be able to find it on this map.

 9     Could you just circle it with a pen and the usher will help you do that.

10        A.   [Marks]

11        Q.   Okay.  And that's, what, about 30 kilometres from Brcko roughly

12     or perhaps less?

13        A.   If you start measuring from the entrance into the city, it's

14     about 20 kilometres.  From the barracks, it's about 24 to 25 kilometres.

15        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  You've answered the question.  If you

16     could just put your name on this map at the bottom and put the date,

17     which is December 13th, 2012.

18        A.   My full name or just my initials?

19        Q.   I think your initials are fine.

20        A.   This doesn't work.  Today is the 13th.

21        Q.   That's fine.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be next Prosecution exhibit.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6043, Your Honours.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:

25        Q.   All right.  I'm moving on to a different subject, sir, and that

Page 31364

 1     is about Sarajevo, which you prepared yourself for, and I'm going to ask

 2     you some questions beginning with paragraph 63 of your statement which

 3     you can look at if you want to.

 4        A.   Of course.

 5        Q.   Now, as I understand it you gave your first statement to the

 6     Defence approximately a year ago, December 2011; correct?

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   And then when you came to The Hague you added to your statement

 9     and that was recently, this month, when you arrived here; correct?

10        A.   Yes.  The reason why I added things --

11        Q.   No, please, please --

12        A.   -- was that I had prepared myself in the meantime and I arrived

13     with correct information.

14        Q.   Okay.  When I ask you a question that can be answered with either

15     yes or no like:  Did you add material to your statement when you arrived?

16     The answer to that is, if you did do it, yes.  And you don't need to then

17     explain more unless it's a -- unless it's a question that can't be

18     answered with yes or no.  So I'll give you a chance to explain your

19     answers, but try to listen to the question and just answer the question I

20     ask and not go further.

21             Now, we were given a track changes version of your statement.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  And I could have the statement up, please, at

23     paragraph 63, which is page 19 in English, page 12 in the Serbian

24     original.

25        Q.   Now, the first -- I'll call it the first version of your

Page 31365

 1     statement, the 2011 version, only included the first three sentences.  So

 2     it read only, and I'll read it:

 3             "I was shown document 1D8436  - the document that I compiled is

 4     about military targets in the centre of Hrasnica.  In connection with

 5     this I was shown document 65 ter 10693 which relates to the military

 6     targets that I identified in document 1D8436.  According to my

 7     information, a modified aerial bomb was fired on the Aleksa Santic

 8     school, where shells were produced for the use of the 1st K of the BH

 9     Army."

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  And could we bring that up, please.  It's D02353.

11        Q.   So I believe the correct number for the document you referred to.

12     That's the document that you were discussing, your document from August

13     1994, your analysis of defence line, correct, that's the document you

14     were referring to in your statement as of 2011?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   The order to launch the air bombs that you referred to was on 6

17     April 1995, eight months after your analysis.  That's an eight-month gap

18     between the time of your analysis and the time of the order to launch,

19     but you still link those two documents.  That's what your statement says;

20     correct?

21        A.   I was not the one who issued the order to launch the air bomb --

22        Q.   There may be --

23        A.   -- that was --

24        Q.   There may be a translation error.  I know you didn't issue the

25     order to launch the air bomb.  What I'm saying is according to your

Page 31366

 1     statement these documents related, even though there's an eight-month gap

 2     between your analysis and the order to launch the air bomb, which was not

 3     issued by you.

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Now you arrive in The Hague one year later and we look at

 6     the rest of paragraph 63, the widely expanded story you have on the

 7     reasoning for the launching of the air bomb on Hrasnica.  And you have

 8     now included additional documents P5981, document D782, which you say

 9     sheds light on the order from General Milosevic for the fire of the air

10     bomb.  And you've concluded that you have information that the fired air

11     bomb landed near the Aleksa Santic school where ammunition was

12     manufactured, tying it back to your statement a year earlier.  Where did

13     you get your information from that the air bomb landed near the

14     Aleksa Santic school?  That's not clear from your statement.

15        A.   Well, look, from my observation post you can see all of Hrasnica

16     almost.  We heard that there was a launch and we saw it.  Also we heard

17     from the corps command that the bomb has -- had landed in the sector of

18     the target.  And thirdly, something that I would like to emphasize,

19     nothing changed from the moment when I sent my analysis to the moment the

20     bomb was launched.  All that time ammunition was being manufactured

21     there; in other words, by observation and through information from the

22     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  At the moment when the bomb was launched, my

23     brigade had suffered very strong attacks from the Hrasnica sector that

24     had lasted for the two or three previous days.  I don't know whether you

25     know that during combat activities --

Page 31367

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sehovac, could you concentrate on answering the

 2     question.  The question was whether you -- where you got your information

 3     from that the air bomb landed near Aleksa Santic school.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:

 5        Q.   And you've answered that.  Thank you, sir.  So just so I

 6     understand, from line of sight from your position when the air bomb

 7     landed you could see Hrasnica and see where the bomb had landed?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So then you would have been able to see immediately that it had

10     not hit the school which was the supposed target; correct?

11        A.   Well, from a distance of some 3 kilometres according to what I

12     saw it was 20 to 30 metres away from it, but you really can't pin-point

13     the distance to the last metre.

14        Q.   So to answer my question, the answer is:  Yes, you could see that

15     it missed the target?

16        A.   No.  I could see that it landed in the immediate vicinity of the

17     target.

18        Q.   And you couldn't see that the school was still standing?  You

19     just told me:

20             "According to what I saw, it was 20 to 30 metres away from it."

21             So -- and our position is that it was a lot farther away from it

22     than that, it was 148 metres roughly.  But answer the question:  You

23     could see that it had not hit the school; correct?

24        A.   Correct, but it landed in the vicinity of the school.

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 31368

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have D00782.

 2        Q.   Now, this document you refer to in paragraph 63 saying:

 3             "This was shown to me," by the Defence, "sheds light on the order

 4     from General Milosevic for the fire of the air bomb as a response from

 5     enemy fire..."

 6             This order for artillery is for Lukavac 95; correct?

 7        A.   Just a moment.  Please bear with me.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you can read "Lukavac 95" on the right top

 9     part of the document.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, the year is 1995 and the

11     combat was going on on the Igman-Trnovo axis.  That's what the commander

12     stated in there.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:

14        Q.   Thank you.  And it's dated 4 April 1995.  You say it relates to

15     the order to launch the air bomb on 6 April.  I think we can agree this

16     Lukavac 95 document says nothing whatsoever about the Aleksa Santic

17     primary school.  It talks only about neutralising the activity of the

18     enemy artillery and mortars.  Correct?  This has nothing to do with your

19     document from eight months earlier; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like P01201, that's the 6th of April order.

22     All right.  This is the order we've been talking about.  It's -- yes,

23     thank you.  It's an order, it's a pretty clear order, and it gives the

24     reason for the order.  In the first paragraph Muslim forces have been

25     attacking from the positions of the 2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry

Page 31369

 1     Brigade ...  et cetera, several of our soldiers and a number of our

 2     civilians have been wounded.

 3             "In order to thwart the enemy and give them a warning so they are

 4     forced to accept this truce, I hereby order:

 5             "The Ilidza Brigade will immediately prepare a launcher with an

 6     aerial bomb and transport the bomb for launching.

 7             "Select the highest-yielding target in Hrasnica or

 8     Sokolovic Kolonija, where there will be the greatest human and material

 9     losses."

10             So first this order is not even limited to Hrasnica, is it, and

11     where the air bomb should be launched?  It also allows for

12     Sokolovic Kolonija; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Again, therefore, having nothing to do with your order from eight

15     months earlier.  Now, we've already established that this air bomb missed

16     the school.  Do you know what damage it did as you sit here today?  Do

17     you know who it killed and what it destroyed?

18        A.   First of all, I did not issue any orders.  I sent my proposal to

19     the corps command for the use of an air bomb.  Second of all, I don't

20     know who it killed.  I have some unofficial information that, inter alia,

21     the soldiers who secured the command post and the factory that

22     manufactured shells for the 1st Corps, that they were also killed.  That

23     among the casualties there were also soldiers, and I'm not contesting

24     that there may have been collateral damage among civilians.

25        Q.   All right.  First of all, I apologise for calling your document

Page 31370

 1     an order.  You're right, it was an analysis.  I misspoke.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P01798, please.

 3        Q.   This is a report of the forensic on-site investigation of that

 4     air bomb.  It gives the location.  And if you look at this, it lists

 5     Ziba Custovic, that's a woman, a Muslim woman, that was killed and the

 6     persons who were injured and shows that two homes were destroyed and 11

 7     houses damaged.  Now, our position is that this location is approximately

 8     150 metres from the school.  Do you accept that, that these were homes

 9     destroyed 150 metres from the target?

10        A.   Shall I answer?  Well, you see, Fikret Prevljak was the commander

11     of the 104th Brigade.  His duty was to eliminate civilians from his

12     deployment sector.  Obviously he didn't do that.  Second of all, at that

13     time I was engaged with the 4th Motorised Brigade in infantry attacks.

14     This was fought by the Ilidza Brigade, and I'm not contesting any of the

15     things that I see written in this document here.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now could I have P01201 back up, please.  Try to

17     follow me, sir.  If you look at this order from General Milosevic, if we

18     follow the plain meaning of it, it says launch a - an - aerial bomb, one.

19             "Select the highest yielding target in Hrasnica or

20     Sokolovic Kolonija where there will be the greatest human and material

21     losses" --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want to intervene on the

23     interpretation or translation.  Esteemed Mr. Nicholls said "plain

24     meaning" and in Serbian we did not get a proper interpretation.  The word

25     "plain" was omitted and only "meaning" was mentioned.

Page 31371

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.  I'll ask the question

 2     again then.

 3        Q.   The plain - or clear and literal - meaning of this document is to

 4     launch one aerial bomb at a target in Hrasnica or Sokolovic Kolonija

 5     where there will be the greatest human and material losses.

 6             Now, if that was the meaning and the purpose of the order, the

 7     order was accomplished, the mission was accomplished; correct?

 8        A.   That is correct.  However, there were military targets in

 9     Hrasnica and in Sokolovic Kolonija.  In Hrasnica those were in the

10     school, training of the police and production of shells, the command post

11     in the direct vicinity, and artillery weapons --

12             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is speaking too fast.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe these are legitimate

14     military targets and that's what I wrote in my proposal to the corps

15     commander and that was on the screen recently.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sokolovic Kolonija is missing from

17     the record, when he was enumerating what targets existed in

18     Sokolovic Kolonija.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is speaking too fast.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:

21        Q.   Try to answer your questions a bit slower, please, sir.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  No, do you confirm that you mentioned

24     Sokolovic Kolonija?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 31372

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And for the benefit of the Chamber understanding

 2     your testimony more correctly, please slow down when answering the

 3     question.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Certainly, Your Honour.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  So -- thank you.

 6        Q.   Exactly in your last answer there were military targets in this

 7     area.  And you're a career military man from 1974 through 2002.  If the

 8     order was to destroy military targets, if the order was to stop the -- to

 9     hit military mortars of the ABiH, then normally what happens is you keep

10     firing until that military target is destroyed.  We've seen video

11     here - if I can't read the P number - P930, which shows the destruction

12     of the Marsal Tito barracks.  And we can see a shell landing nearby,

13     there's target acquisitions, the shells get closer, the target is found,

14     the Marsal Tito barracks, a completely legitimate military target, is

15     obliterated by precise firing.  That didn't happen here.  You could see

16     that the target was missed.  If the object was to hit the school where

17     weapons were being made, why didn't you fire again and hit the school?

18     Not you but the 1st Brigade.

19        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I was not the one who launched that bomb.  I did

20     not determine the elements.  I only made a proposal of legal military

21     targets.  I think this question is superfluous.

22        Q.   Okay.

23        A.   I could only observe where it landed.

24        Q.   I'll take that answer.  Have you ever seen an order -- this is a

25     hypothetical.  There's a sniper on a roof firing at your troops.  Have

Page 31373

 1     you ever seen an order that says:  Go after that sniper, take one shot at

 2     him with one bullet, and then stop?

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I want the interpretation to be

 4     correct.  Shoot him with only round and then stop.  The question cannot

 5     be answered properly by the witness if the question is not interpreted

 6     properly.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So you want me to imagine a sniper

 8     on a roof and myself giving an order to my sniper to hit him with one

 9     bullet?  I can imagine that.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:

11        Q.   And then if you miss the sniper, you just let him keep continuing

12     firing at your troops and wouldn't take another shot at it; that's your

13     answer?  Let the military target that's threatening you continue to

14     exist?

15        A.   If the sniper is destroying my personnel and inflicting losses, I

16     would order continued action until the target is neutralised or

17     destroyed.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  No further questions.  Thank you.

19             And just for the record, the exhibits yesterday which I showed,

20     the excerpt from the Krajisnik judgement and the transcript of the

21     testimony in that case, I do not propose to admit those.  I think I read

22     the relevant portions into the record and I think my summary of the

23     transcript was fair.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 31374

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you have re-examination?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.  Thank you.

 3     Good morning, Your Excellencies.  Good morning to everyone.

 4                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Colonel Sehovac.

 6        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   The testimony of one fireman from Brcko was put to you yesterday.

 8     That fireman stated allegedly that you had ordered some murders.  He

 9     testified on 20th April 2004.  That's on page 93 of yesterday's LiveNote.

10     Did you after that date have an interview with the OTP; and if you did,

11     do you remember where?

12        A.   I didn't have any interviews with the Prosecution, so we cannot

13     discuss any dates.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have any encounters, talks, with the

15     Prosecution?

16        A.   Yes, here in The Hague roughly in 1997.  I was invited by I think

17     he was called senior prosecutor, Mr. Barry Hogan.  He invited me twice

18     for talks at the offices of the Prosecution in Belgrade and he asked me

19     to be a Prosecution witness in the trial of General Dragomir Milosevic;

20     however, that did not happen.

21        Q.   In what year did you meet with the Prosecution in Belgrade?

22        A.   I believe it was July 1997.  Please do not hold it against me.  I

23     don't remember exactly, but they must have records with exact dates.

24        Q.   I would now like to have played T000-5525-2-A.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have a 65 ter number?

Page 31375

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was an audio recording.  I'm

 2     not sure.  We'll provide a number now.  We expected that this would be a

 3     topic.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  What is it related to?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it is related to the first

 6     questions about Brcko and the witness's credibility.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, we should look at the

 9     date and year of the interview.  There is also an English translation in

10     parallel.  Could it be played from -- first of all, let's hear the date

11     and then we'll move to the passage that is important to us.

12                           [Audio-clip played]

13             "Okay.  I'll just repeat the last question --"

14             "The time is 9.27 a.m., still the 11th of August, 2006.  The tape

15     is being started again at..."

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Did you hear that the date was 11 August 1996 -- 2006?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we play that part again?

19                           [Audio-clip played]

20             "The time is 9.27 a.m., still the 11th of August, 2006.  The tape

21     is being started again after the phone has been unplugged.

22             "Okay.  I'll just repeat" --

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Do you agree or rather --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  There is a noise from which we couldn't hear.

Page 31376

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreter's couldn't --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Somebody's headphones are too close to the

 3     microphone.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you hear on the recording that the date was 11 August 2006?

 6        A.   Yes, yes, I heard that.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now listen to starting

 9     from 5.20. to 7.56.

10                           [audio-clip played]

11             "... and recommendations.  I have a request to you or demand,

12     [indiscernible] as you wish.  First I am a suspect.  I would like to know

13     what am I suspected for.  I would like -- what events am I suspected?  I

14     would like to know what time-period am I suspected?  Fifteen years have

15     gone since the beginning of the war and twelve years since the abolition

16     of the war.  I would like to give complete and full answers respecting

17     you and the Tribunal, and therefore I would like to ask you to give me --

18     allow me certain time for preparation so I could give true, adequate, and

19     [indiscernible].

20             "Okay.  I'll try to -- I'll try answer your three questions.  As

21     far as what you are suspected of, it's a complicated matter but as I

22     tried to explain the first time that we met, we are not suspecting you of

23     any crimes.  The Tribunal has no intentions of indicting you.  The

24     Tribunal is not actively investigating you in particular."

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic or somebody please remove

Page 31377

 1     their headphones.  They're too close to the microphones.  The

 2     interpreters cannot work.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Somebody's headphone is close to the microphone so

 4     that it makes some noises.  The interpreters couldn't hear you,

 5     Mr. Karadzic.

 6             THE ACCUSED:  I change the side.  Anyway, I am changing it very

 7     often.  Is that better?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I hope so.  Please continue.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   So, Colonel Sehovac, two years after the testimony that was put

11     to you yesterday you had an interview with the OTP in which you were told

12     that you were not suspected of any crime and there was no investigation

13     against you; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.  During this interview in Belgrade in 2006, were you

16     asked anything about Brcko?

17        A.   I was not asked anything because I asked for time to prepare and

18     that time was granted; however, that did not happen.  Still, I was warned

19     that everything I say to the Prosecutors of the Tribunal would be copied

20     to Zagreb, to Sarajevo, and to Belgrade, to the competent judicial

21     authorities that deal with this type of crime.  That's all I have to say,

22     Mr. President.

23        Q.   After that, did you have any other interviews with the

24     Prosecution or encounters or talks - call them whatever you like?

25        A.   No, not until two days ago here with Mr. Nicholls I believe his

Page 31378

 1     name is.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this exhibit and we

 4     will provide a transcript?  1D6831.  We'll include the audio and the

 5     transcript or just the audio, as you wish.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I'm just asking you whether it's really necessary,

 7     given that it's already reflected in our transcript?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If that is so, then we can proceed

 9     the way you said.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Now I would like to call --

12                           [Defence counsel confer]

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- 1D6825 in e-court.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's switch to e-court.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   While we are waiting, Colonel, you said earlier today that a year

17     ago you handed over to the Prosecution -- to the Defence documents

18     relating to your appointment and service in Brcko; correct?

19        A.   Yes, yes, I handed them over.

20        Q.   Thank you.  We are waiting for the document and for the

21     interpretation too.  Can you tell us what this document is?

22        A.   This document is a certificate from the military post 7102,

23     that's the command of the Eastern Bosnia Corps, and it states that I --

24     could we move the text to the left, please - that I spent in military

25     post 7410, Brcko, the period from 19 May 1992 to 15 August 1992, as I

Page 31379

 1     said in my statement.  It's signed by Major-General Novica Simic, who was

 2     the commander.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Did you say to the Defence team that you had been in

 4     Brcko and what did the Defence team say to you on that issue?

 5        A.   Yes, I told the Defence team that I expected to discuss only

 6     Sarajevo and we had no special preparation for Brcko.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this document?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6825 receives number D2636,

11     Your Honours.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just one clarification.  Could the parties take a

13     look at line 17 on page 2 of the -- of today's transcript.  To the

14     question of Mr. Nicholls:

15             "Where in your statement in paragraph 2 does it say you were in

16     Brcko?"

17             And he answered with this:

18             "I issued orders.  I handed over five documents, some of which

19     are originals."

20             By saying "I issued orders," I meant -- I take it that he meant

21     to say that he handed over the five appointment orders.  Would you agree

22     in so understanding, Mr. Nicholls?  Or shall I clarify with the witness?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  I think that's probably right, but I would prefer

24     to clarify it, Your Honour, of what he handed over.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Did you understand the question?  The transcript

Page 31380

 1     says that you said:

 2             "I issued orders ..."

 3             What did you mean by saying "orders" or issuing orders?  Do you

 4     follow?

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It must be an error in

 6     interpretation.  I handed over orders on appointment, some of which are

 7     in the original --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  That's --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- orders from my superiors.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That's sufficient.  Thank you.

11             Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency, for

13     this clarification.  It's really useful.

14             Can we now see 65 ter 24260.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Did you experience problems in Brcko with the forces that were

17     active there?

18        A.   Yes, Mr. President, especially with the paramilitaries and

19     especially in the early days of the war.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see paragraph 3 a bit larger

21     in Serbian.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   And could you please explain what was going on and why in the

24     sector of Brcko --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. --

Page 31381

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't want to object now, but I assume that this

 2     is -- this does not arise from my cross unless he's going to bring it

 3     somehow back to the cross.  I mean the question of paramilitaries in

 4     Brcko and the problems he had do not arise from my questions.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I tend to agree with your observation.

 6             But can I hear from you, Mr. Robinson?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  The cross-examination

 8     directly dealt with people who accused this witness of crimes, and I

 9     think the witness is allowed -- should be allowed to explain exactly what

10     the situation was in Brcko and how, in fact, he was not guilty of any of

11     these crimes.  And we think that this goes towards showing that.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will allow the question to be put.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Please, Colonel, tell us, is it true that you had been arrested

17     along with president of the municipality of Brcko, members of the

18     Executive Council, and demands were made to free those people who had

19     been arrested by our police forces?

20        A.   That's correct, Mr. President, because we opposed paramilitary

21     forces, especially myself and the authorities of Brcko municipality.

22     They arrested me and the president of the municipality and they held us

23     hostage.  And they would have probably killed both of us if it had not

24     been for the protest of Priest Slavko who interceded.  I want to

25     emphasize that this was in July, the month when you sent a special unit

Page 31382

 1     headed by Dragan Andan, who we met with the military police, and started

 2     cleansing paramilitaries in town.  We disarmed them later and we drove

 3     them to the border with Serbia and expelled them from Brcko.  Do I need

 4     to clarify more?

 5        Q.   It's enough for now.  Just tell us one more thing.  You heard

 6     what is included in the Krajisnik judgement.  Who, to the best of your

 7     knowledge, was the armed force at the time able to commit the crimes

 8     discussed by that fireman?

 9        A.   Paramilitaries.  To be quite clear, at that point in time in

10     Brcko, there was a group of 20 of Arkan's men, about 30 men who were

11     Captain Dragan's unit, then there were the Red Berets, then there was a

12     group of eight to nine people from Zbor [phoen], and finally the

13     so-called milicija Krajina arrived in Brcko.  We had to deal with all of

14     them and we cleansed them.  Enormous problems we had, both we and the

15     government organs.  It was only after a curfew was imposed, after

16     check-points were placed at exit and entry points into important

17     facilities.  Also when we banned weapons in government buildings, no one

18     was allowed to enter government buildings if armed, then paramilitary

19     units - and I would particularly like to point that out - attacked the

20     police station four times.  Now, what was the objective?  The sealing of

21     documents, passports, traffic licences, driver's licences, and so on.  In

22     such a situation we received assistance from the Supreme Command, this

23     special unit, and that is how we managed to cleanse Brcko with the

24     assistance of our forces.

25        Q.   Thank you, Colonel, sir.  Now we are going to leave the topic of

Page 31383

 1     Brcko.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this document please be

 3     admitted.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Could you please tell the Trial Chamber who it was that signed

 6     this report, this regular combat report?

 7        A.   I cannot see it very well, Dragutin Ilic,

 8     Commander Colonel Dragutin Ilic, he's the commander of the

 9     Eastern Bosnian Corps.

10             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit as Exhibit D2637.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   We will now go back to the Sarajevo period.  Today you were asked

14     about the time when you found out that in Sokolovic Kolonija, Hrasnica

15     there were military targets, weapons, artillery, and so on.  When was it

16     that you first found out that -- actually, when did you first find out

17     about the strength, infrastructure, and weaponry of the 4th Brigade of

18     the BH army under the command of Fikret Prevljak?

19        A.   Mr. President, I arrived in Vojkovici on the 15th of August.

20     From the 15th of August until the 18th of August, I got to know the

21     command, the combat deployment of our forces, the support forces, then

22     how the logistics functioned, then how the communications and command

23     functioned, and the unit as a whole.  In addition to that -- okay.  In

24     addition to that, to the extent to which this was accessible to them,

25     especially in the front, I was made aware of the strength, disposition,

Page 31384

 1     and structure of the enemy in front of us.  I was also made aware of the

 2     deployment of support resources.  There were four firing groups,

 3     battalion firing groups, and the brigade artillery group.  That is what

 4     I'd have to say, Mr. President.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Please --

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Excuse me.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry to interrupt.  Just to correct Mr. Karadzic,

 9     he says at line 27 [sic], line 3:

10             "Today you were asked about the time when you found out that in

11     Sokolac ...  there were military targets ... and so on.  When was it that

12     you first found out ... about the infrastructure ... of the brigade ...?"

13             I didn't ask about the time that he first found out about

14     military targets.  I just talked about -- asked him about his analysis

15     from 1994.  But I didn't ask him when did you first find out that there

16     were military targets in Hrasnica, et cetera.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Let's go on.  But you pointed out the time when he

19     wrote down that analysis.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  So on that basis it's fair enough to ask the timing.

22     Let's proceed.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Colonel, sir, from 1992 onwards, if you knew what all the things

25     that Prevljak had were, why did you not target them every day; or rather,

Page 31385

 1     when did you target them and for what reasons?

 2        A.   Not -- we did not target them every day.  We targeted them at the

 3     moments when they fired at us.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5        A.   There's another reason too.  We were trying to save ammunition

 6     because our ammunition resources were insufficient.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D6272, could we please have that

 8     in e-court.  And I would like to ask the usher to help the Colonel with

 9     the use of an electronic pen.  Page 3 now, please.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could it be enlarged a bit?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it --

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Actually, could you first tell us what this map depicts according

14     to what you can read from it?

15        A.   This map shows the deployment of units on this map.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Does it show anything else?

17        A.   It shows units that are involved in defence and those that are

18     attacking.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Whose units are attacking and whose units are

20     involved in defence?

21        A.   I really cannot say.  Could it be zoomed in?  I can barely see

22     it, it's so illegible.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't understand how this arises from my cross,

25     which units were attacking where in the wider area.

Page 31386

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Then I'm just going to

 2     restrict myself to asking Colonel Sehovac to mark for us here the area --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No, just tell us how this arises from the

 4     cross-examination of Nicholls.  What are you addressing -- what part of

 5     cross are you addressing now?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it has to do with the

 7     position of that brigade that was suffering attacks or that was inferior,

 8     rather, and that was in a position to defend itself, and that was

 9     challenged, or rather, it was brought into question whether that was

10     necessity.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I draw this?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, I'm not sure whether it arises from

13     the cross.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Nicholls, can you reply to Dr. Karadzic's

16     submission, please.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.  It does not arise from the cross.  I think

18     what Dr. Karadzic is probably referring to is the order which said that

19     the 2nd Brigade was coming under fire, which is given in the 6th of April

20     order to fire the air bomb.  And I'm not contesting that the

21     2nd Sarajevo Light Infantry Brigade was coming under fire, if that's what

22     he is alleging.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Mr. Nicholls' observation.

25     Please move on to your next topic, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 31387

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  My next topic is to

 2     thank Colonel Sehovac for everything, including this testimony.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Colonel Sehovac.  That concludes your

 5     evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber I would like to thank you for your

 6     coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go, but we will rise

 7     all together.

 8             The Chamber will have a break for half an hour and resume at

 9     11.00.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS: MILORAD KATIC

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Katic.  Please be seated and make

20     yourself comfortable.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you, Excellency.

24                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Katic.

Page 31388

 1        A.   Good day, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Did you give a statement to the Defence team?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   I have a request for you and for myself, that we pause between my

 5     questions and your answers so that we would spare our interpreters.  It

 6     is so important for us to have every word interpreted and we want them to

 7     be able to do that.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 169628, could we please have

 9     that -- 1D6908.  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Is that the statement, the one that you see before you on the

12     screen?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read it and do you see that it correctly

15     reflects everything you said?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Did you sign the statement?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions today, would your

20     answers contained in this statement basically be the same?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

24     tender the 92 ter package, please.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

Page 31389

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Actually, we're going to

 2     tender only three of these associated exhibits.  First of all, 1D6905 and

 3     6906, and we would like to have permission to add those to our 65 ter

 4     list as they weren't available to us at the time we filed that list.  And

 5     then 1D08574 we'll also be tendering.  The others we will not be

 6     tendering.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  As regards 1D8574, if you look at paragraph 14 of

 8     the witness's statement, he refers to item 9 and 13 of that document.

 9     How voluminous was -- is that document?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  It's a nine-page document.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So you are tendering in its entirety?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, if the Prosecution wants it to be redacted,

13     we'll do that, but it didn't seem necessary.

14             JUDGE KWON:  First -- shall we give the number for the statement

15     first.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6908 receives number D2651,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Ms. McKenna.  Do you have any

19     objection to admitting in its entirety 1D8574?

20             MS. McKENNA:  Good morning, Your Honours.  I have no objection to

21     the admission of that document in its entirety.  I would --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll give the number for that.

23             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D8574 receives number D2652,

25     Your Honours.

Page 31390

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And then we have two documents, 6905 and 6906.  Do

 2     we have English translation for those documents?

 3             Ms. McKenna, were you able to see the English translation?

 4             MS. McKENNA:  I wasn't, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So -- I couldn't see either, so in order for

 6     Mr. Karadzic to tender these two documents I would like him to lead live

 7     with the witness.

 8             Would you like to add anything, Ms. McKenna?

 9             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If I may just add in

10     paragraph 6 of Mr. Katic's statement, he refers to paragraph 39 of a

11     previous statement.  I think this is probably simply a typographical

12     error.  But I would request that Mr. Karadzic clarify this with the

13     witness live.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Fair enough.

15             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, if you could look at 6905,

17     it's just a list so do you need a translation?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload it?

19             MS. McKENNA:  If I may add --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see the document first.  Oh.  Can you read

21     the document, Mr. Robinson?  It's in Cyrillic.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Yeah, I realise that, but I -- in other words, you

23     would like the names in English?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Well, if we are going to tender those, we have to

25     read the names at least.  I can read some of them.

Page 31391

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  I know you can.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  But not the all of them.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  I see.  Okay.  We can do that.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Or -- but, yeah, he can put some foundation

 5     questions about the title and then we can mark them for identification.

 6             Where were we?  I've forgotten.  Yes, do you have any observation

 7     as to the observation by Ms. McKenna that Mr. Karadzic need to clarify

 8     live as to paragraph 39 referred to in para 6?

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I think that's a good idea.  He can do that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Then, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I'm advised that the Serbian

12     version of paragraph 6 doesn't refer to paragraph 39 and apparently it's

13     a mistake in the English translation.  So it wouldn't be of much use to

14     clarify it with the witness.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             Now I would like to read out the summary of Mr. Milorad Katic's

19     statement.  I'll read it out in English.

20             [In English] Milorad Katic was born on 26 of January 1954 in

21     Sarajevo.  In June 1979 he graduated from the mechanical engineering

22     faculty at the University of Sarajevo and he started to work at the Put

23     Sarajevo construction company.  He was conscripted to military service in

24     December 1979 and completed his service in November 1980.  After the Put

25     Sarajevo construction company, Mr. Katic worked for Famos factory, and

Page 31392

 1     later on for the similar factory Pretis, as a director of one production

 2     department.  He was a member of the SDS board in Novo Sarajevo

 3     municipality in the period between 1990 and April 1992.  From the

 4     outbreak of the war until 13th of March, 1993, he served as a soldier in

 5     the 3rd Battalion which became part of the 1st Sarajevo Mechanised

 6     Brigade of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  On 13th of March, 1993,

 7     Mr. Katic was appointed president of the Assembly in Srpsko Novo

 8     Sarajevo.

 9             In the summer of 1992, chaos reigned in the political system in

10     BH and had been -- BH had been dissolved.  When the Serbian organs came

11     to power, crimes of all kinds were reduced to a minimum, an undertaking

12     which was supported by Dr. Karadzic.  When Milorad Katic became president

13     of Serbian Novo Sarajevo municipality, he enforced guarantees of pension

14     and humanitarian aid to both Serbs and Muslims alike.  Citizens of both

15     Muslim and Croatian ethnicities were elected as commissioners in their

16     respective buildings and they distributed humanitarian aid.

17             Grbavica was constantly under artillery and sniper fire from the

18     Muslim forces of the city of Sarajevo and there were a large number of

19     civilian victims of all ethnicities on Grbavica and other parts of Serb

20     Novo Sarajevo.  Milorad Katic's administration buried all victims,

21     regardless of their ethnicity in the same graveyard and each grave was

22     recorded.  Milorad Katic states that there was no persecution of

23     non-Serbian civilians, there was no, and that -- at the 1.500 people of

24     non-Serb ethnicity who remained living in Grbavica until the end of war

25     which testifies -- which confirms that there was no persecution.

Page 31393

 1             Dr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik held meetings with other leaders

 2     of municipalities throughout the Republika Srpska.  Neither the

 3     leadership of Pale nor Mr. Karadzic ever ordered that water and

 4     electricity supply be cut off to the Muslim part of the city.  There were

 5     two public kitchens in Grbavica in which two meals were distributed daily

 6     to everyone, regardless of their ethnicity.

 7             The Serb part of Novo Sarajevo and parts of Ilidza did not

 8     receive adequate about the electricity.  The Muslim side, however,

 9     received far more extensive humanitarian aid from the international

10     organisations and the UNHCR.  By handing over the control of the airport

11     to the UN in June 1992, the Serbs could no longer control the

12     distribution of the humanitarian aid.

13             Milorad Katic has never heard of a Variant A and B paper, nor was

14     he aware of a meeting held in Holiday Inn hotel where the instructions

15     were allegedly distributed.

16             And that would be the summary.  I would like to pose few

17     confession to Mr. Katic, first concerning that document.

18             [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6905 in e-court.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Mr. Katic, could you please read the title and could you explain

21     to the Trial Chamber what the document is about?

22        A.   Yes, I will do that, Mr. President.

23             "People buried in the Catholic plot between 1992 and 1996."

24             This document refers to the individuals who were killed or either

25     died of natural causes in the territory of the municipality of Serbian

Page 31394

 1     Sarajevo, predominantly in Kovacici and in Grbavica.  Those individuals

 2     were either killed by shelling or by sniper fire or, as I said at the

 3     beginning, they died of natural causes.  I received this information from

 4     the St. Mark's burial public company in Sarajevo, or rather, in Serbian

 5     Sarajevo.  During the war, the name of that company was Sons [phoen].

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can we also take a look at the second and third pages

 7     to see if you have any remarks.  While we're waiting for this to happen,

 8     Mr. Katic, who bore the cost of the burials of those who could not pay

 9     themselves?  Maybe listen to the floor for that name?

10        A.   The costs were bore by the local community.  In this specific

11     case it was the municipality of Serbian new Sarajevo.

12        Q.   Was a distinction made between citizens of different religious

13     and ethnicity affiliations?  Or were costs born for everybody?

14        A.   The costs were born for everybody.  There were Serbs who did not

15     have enough means, so the costs were born for the burial of Serbs,

16     Muslims, and Croats.  I would like to add something about this document.

17     All those people were buried in Lukavica cemetery.  They all had their

18     plots and everybody can tell exactly where the Orthodox plot is, where

19     the Catholic plot is, and where the Muslim plot is.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Katic.  You came into power -- I apologise.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, did you decide

22     that this should be admitted or do I have to tender it for admission?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification pending

24     English translation as D -- Exhibit D2653.

25             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

Page 31395

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, given that the next document

 2     is the same format, can it be --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let us -- let the witness read the title at least so

 4     that we can understand.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Very good.  Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6906.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could you please read the title of this document.

 9        A.   "Individuals Buried in the Muslim Plot Between 1992 and 1996."

10        Q.   Thank you.  What were the causes of death by and large when it

11     comes to these people?

12        A.   Just like with the previous document, I would like to repeat with

13     regard to this document.  The causes of death were either natural or

14     killing by shelling or sniping.

15        Q.   Again I would like to look at the following two pages, page 2 and

16     3, to see if the witness has anything to add.  And while we are waiting,

17     Mr. Katic, did the families of these people know exactly where they were

18     buried?  Did they have to look for them at all?

19        A.   This is correct.  They knew exactly where these people were

20     buried because there was quite a clear distinction between Orthodox

21     Muslim and Catholic plots in that cemetery in Lukavica.  After the Dayton

22     Accords, families came and they could if they wanted to do so exhume the

23     mortal remains of their family members who were buried there.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm tendering this document as

Page 31396

 1     well.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be marked for identification as

 3     Exhibit D2654.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Just one more question

 5     for Mr. Katic.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Katic, is it true that both in the party and in the

 8     municipality -- I apologise.  Strike that.

 9             You said you came into power in the municipality in 1993.  What

10     was the reason for the change in the composition of authorities in

11     Novo Sarajevo?

12        A.   Mr. President, the authorities always wanted to do what was the

13     best for the municipality at that moment.  However, my personal opinion

14     is that what the previous authorities did was not enough to prevent all

15     the irregularities that were rife in the municipality at that moment.

16     Those included the distribution of humanitarian aid, the distribution of

17     pension moneys, and as I heard many times, people of other ethnic groups

18     were not treated like Serb -- Serbs were.  They had to leave Grbavica.

19     They were persecuted and things like that.  And that's why I became

20     president on the 13th of March, 1993, I became the president of the

21     municipality of Novo Sarajevo.  New authorities, young officials, are

22     probably more propulsive and we were able -- better suited to do what we

23     had to do so that all the inhabitants of the municipality received

24     humanitarian aid, pensions, and everything else that befits a human

25     being.

Page 31397

 1        Q.   And what about those who were in power before you, did they

 2     participate in crimes or, as you put it yourself, did they -- could they

 3     not prevent those crimes?  Were younger people sought to prevent that?

 4     Were some active mistakes committed by the previous government in the

 5     municipality?

 6             MS. McKENNA:  I'm sorry, if I may object to that question.  It

 7     was phrased in a leading manner.

 8                           [Defence counsel confer]

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will repeat and rephrase.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   The authorities before you, were they involved in the commission

12     of crimes themselves?

13             MS. McKENNA:  I would also object on the ground that it's beyond

14     the scope of the witness's statement and 65 ter summary.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  If the accused is going to lead live with the

17     witness, can he not ask the question clarifying his statement which is

18     contained in his statement, for example, the reason for his election at

19     that time, et cetera, Ms. McKenna?

20             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, my understanding would be that the

21     evidence should still fall within the remit of the 65 ter summary, that

22     is, the topics that were notified to the Prosecution; but we'll defer to

23     you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  He was introduced as partial Rule 92 ter witness and

25     then he can cover any topics as far as is relevant and notified in

Page 31398

 1     general terms, so I don't see any problem.  So I will allow Mr. Karadzic

 2     to continue.

 3             Yes.

 4             Probably you need to pose your question again, but please do so

 5     in a not-leading manner.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   My question, therefore, is this:  What was the sin of the

 9     previous government?  Was it crimes or their inability to contain the

10     situation?

11        A.   In my statement I stated that at that time I was a soldier in

12     Zlatiste.  More specifically, I never heard that the previous authorities

13     had done something that would have lead to the change of authorities.

14     The authorities before me in Novo Sarajevo never committed any crimes.  I

15     claim that.  And I believe that as far as your question is concerned more

16     specifically, that they were not removed and replaced because they had

17     been involved in some unlawful dealings, but simply they did not pay

18     sufficient attention to the things such as the distribution of

19     humanitarian aid, the distribution of pension moneys, and providing for

20     all the conditions necessary for a normal life in the municipality.

21        Q.   Who was your predecessor and what was his profession?

22        A.   My predecessor was Mr. Milivoj Prijic.  I believe that he was a

23     physician, but I'm not sure.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Katic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And at this moment I have no

Page 31399

 1     further questions for the witness, Your Excellencies.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  In the meantime I was able to check the B/C/S

 4     version of para 6 of this witness's statement, and if we are to redact

 5     the first line and two words in the second line, that would be consistent

 6     with the English version.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we'll do that.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  I'll have to ask Ms. McKenna whether she is happy

 9     with that solution.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Yes, Your Honour.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So the Defence is to upload the redacted version.

12             Very well.  Then that concludes your in-chief examination.

13             As you have noted, Mr. Katic, that your evidence in chief in

14     Mr. Karadzic's defence case was admitted in most form -- in most part in

15     writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  And now you will be

16     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor,

17     Ms. McKenna.

18             Please proceed.

19             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

20                           Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

21        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Katic.

22        A.   Good morning.

23        Q.   Now, as I have limited time, I'd ask you to listen carefully to

24     my questions and to answer them as accurately and as concisely as

25     possible.  I'd like to start with a brief clarificatory point in respect

Page 31400

 1     of your statement.  When we met on Monday you clarified that in September

 2     or October 1990 you were elected as an SDS deputy to the Assembly of the

 3     municipality of Novo Sarajevo.  Is that correct?

 4        A.   No.

 5        Q.   Could you clarify the position to which you were elected?

 6        A.   What year?  I did not understand your question.  What year did

 7     you refer to?

 8        Q.   1990.

 9        A.   1990?  That's when the first multi-party election took place in

10     the municipality of Novo Sarajevo, and I was elected as an MP or an

11     Assembly member on behalf of the SDS.

12        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Katic.  And you served in this capacity until the

13     outbreak of the conflict in April 1992; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   I'd first like to focus on the period of the outbreak of the

16     conflict.  At paragraph 8 of your statement you say:

17             "I was never involved in arms distribution.  Shooting was

18     everywhere and people were panicking and asking where there were weapons.

19     Everything was disorganised and the situation was chaotic."

20             This is a reference to the period at the very start of the

21     conflict, at the beginning of April 1992, isn't it?

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   Now, in your testimony in the Dragomir Milosevic case you

24     described in detail how the arming at the start of the conflict took

25     place.  On the 4th of April, 1992, you lived - as you still do - in

Page 31401

 1     Ohridska Street in Vrace; is that correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   And on that date you heard shots from Vrace memorial park and you

 4     understood that there were clashes between the police forces at the

 5     police school in Vrace; correct?

 6        A.   That's correct.

 7        Q.   And that was when the panic - which you describe in your

 8     statement today - broke out, wasn't it?

 9        A.   And that is also correct.

10        Q.   So after an hour or two, vehicles started coming with weapons;

11     correct?

12        A.   Vehicles with weapons did not start arriving.  One vehicle

13     arrived with weapons.

14             MS. McKENNA:  If I may have 65 ter number 24328, please.

15        Q.   Mr. Katic, I'd just like to remind you of the testimony that you

16     gave in the Dragomir Milosevic case on this point.

17             MS. McKENNA:  If we could have page 9 of this exhibit, please, or

18     this document.

19        Q.   And at lines 9 to 10 of this page you state -- well, actually at

20     line 7 you state:

21             " ... as I said, people started to gather spontaneously and

22     started asking for weapons because they panicked."

23             And then you say:

24             "And I can say that after an hour or two, vehicles started coming

25     with weapons."

Page 31402

 1             Now, having reviewed your testimony, is it your position that, in

 2     fact, it was only one vehicle?

 3        A.   I can say that when it comes to Miljevici village where I live

 4     above the memorial park, only one vehicle arrived.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  So panic-stricken people, including yourself, stood

 6     in queues by the truck, the vehicle, asking for weapons; is that correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   And those who were being armed were not JNA members, they were

 9     just local members of the Territorial Defence and other people from the

10     surrounding area; is that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And arms continued to be distributed over the next three or four

13     days; correct?

14        A.   I don't know exactly whether that was over the next three or four

15     days.  I'm sure that it was for another day.  Arms were distributed at

16     least for another day in the area where I resided.

17             MS. McKENNA:  If we could turn to page 10 of this document,

18     please.

19        Q.   Again, Mr. Katic, I'd like to remind you of your testimony --

20     your previous testimony on this.  At line 3 of this document you state.

21             "These weapons were being distributed over the next three or four

22     days ..."

23             Does that refresh your recollection?

24        A.   If I stated that it was over the next three or four days, I

25     suppose that I was right five years ago.  As I'm sitting today -- here

Page 31403

 1     today, I know that it was distributed over the next one or two days.  I

 2     wouldn't be so sure that it was over the next three or four days, so I

 3     can't confirm that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  You received automatic and semi-automatics -- excuse

 5     me, you and your neighbours received automatic and semi-automatic

 6     weapons; isn't that correct?

 7        A.   Correct.  Semi-automatic and automatic rifles.

 8        Q.   And the trucks -- or the vehicle or vehicles that came from the

 9     army barracks at Lukavica, didn't they?

10        A.   I believe so.  I believe that it arrived from the military

11     barracks in Lukavica.

12        Q.   And weapons were also being supplied from Pale, weren't they?

13        A.   From Pale to the lower part of the city as we used to call it,

14     i.e., to the area where I resided.  No weapons could arrive directly by

15     trucks.  It may have stopped somewhere in the region of Trebevic.

16        Q.   So just to clarify that point, you're saying that weapons went

17     from Pale to Trebevic but not from Pale to your part of Novo Sarajevo; is

18     that correct?

19        A.   During that period a vehicle from Pale or from further afield

20     could not reach Lukavica or Vrace or Miljevici because the road between

21     Pale and Lukavica via Vrace was not passable.  In other words, one part

22     of that road was under the control of the Muslim police.

23        Q.   Mr. Katic, just to clarify this point, in your OTP statement that

24     you gave previously, you stated:

25             "Weapons were also coming from Pale," and that's at paragraph 53

Page 31404

 1     of your statement to the Office of the Prosecutor.

 2             So I'm just -- I'd just like you to clarify what you meant when

 3     you said "weapons were also coming from Pale."

 4        A.   All these things that I've just said I confirm again because I

 5     said back then that people who were not armed from our territory went on

 6     foot across slopes, the slopes of Mount Trebevic, to the sector that

 7     could be reached by truck, a truck that was sent somewhere from Pale or

 8     from behind the lines.

 9        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Katic.  I'll move to a different topic.

10             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please have 65 ter 24327.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just correct the transcript.

12     Line 21 the witness said:  Or somewhere from the depth of the territory.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  This is a synonym of "from

14     behind the lines."

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's only a matter of the record.

16     If the Prosecutor will kindly check whether this was indeed said --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I was confirmed by the interpreters

18     that "from behind the lines" is a synonym to that expression, but we note

19     it.

20             Let's continue.

21             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22        Q.   Mr. Katic, you'll recognise this photo as a photo that you marked

23     in the Dragomir Milosevic case.  Do you recognise the photo?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And can you confirm for us today that F is -- you marked F for

Page 31405

 1     the faculty of philosophy?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   M for the museum?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   HI for the Holiday Inn?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   B for the Metaljka building?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And the line that you drew on this photo was the separation line

10     between the VRS above the line and the ABiH below the line; is that

11     correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, may I tender this as an exhibit?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24327 receives number P6044,

17     Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  You're going to ask some questions about this?

19             MS. McKENNA:  I am, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MS. McKENNA:

22        Q.   Now, Mr. Katic, there were men with rifles on the upper floor of

23     the Metaljka building and the building to its left on this map, weren't

24     there?

25        A.   I don't know.  I cannot see it on this photograph.

Page 31406

 1             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please have 65 ter number 24328.

 2        Q.   Again, Mr. Katic, I'd like to remind you of your testimony in

 3     this -- on this issue in the Dragomir Milosevic case.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No, the question was not whether you can see the men

 5     with rifles on this photo, whether you were aware -- the question was

 6     whether there were men with rifles on the upper floor of that building

 7     you marked.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] On the roof of that building there

 9     could have been no people.  They could have been on lower floors or

10     perhaps on the highest floor, but they couldn't be on the roof.

11             JUDGE KWON:  It may be a translation issue.  I didn't say so

12     neither Ms. McKenna say so.  The question was whether there were men with

13     rifles on the upper floor of the building.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Judge, sir, there were armed people

15     in that building.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

17             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18        Q.   And from the positions from the upper floors of that building,

19     these men could shoot down the street running from the Metaljka building

20     towards the Holiday Inn to hit targets in front of the Holiday Inn if

21     they choose to do so; isn't that correct?

22        A.   If they wanted to, they could hit it from that building.

23        Q.   So these men could effectively engage targets from the Metaljka

24     building and the building to its left with or without a telescopic sight

25     on their rifles, couldn't they?

Page 31407

 1        A.   Well, the distance is about 400 metres.  They could without

 2     telescopic sights shoot.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Now, at statement -- or at paragraph 16 of your

 4     statement you refer to the red building which was divided between the VRS

 5     and the ABiH.

 6             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please see D2623.

 7        Q.   Now, the red building to which you refer is the building marked

 8     with an S and an M in this photograph; isn't that correct?

 9        A.   Correct.

10        Q.   And at paragraph 10 of your statement you confirmed that the Serb

11     forces were in the part marked S and Muslim forces in the part marked M;

12     correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   The whole area to the left of this building on the photo was held

15     by the VRS, wasn't it?

16        A.   The area to the left of this building was under the control of

17     the Army of Republika Srpska.

18        Q.   And the area in front of the building, that's towards the

19     Miljacka river on the photo, was also held by the VRS; correct?

20        A.   Correct.

21        Q.   And the area behind the building was also held by the VRS;

22     correct?

23        A.   I did not understand this.

24        Q.   I'm sorry.  I'll be more clear.  The area behind the building, so

25     in the opposite direction to the Miljacka river, was also held by the

Page 31408

 1     VRS; is that correct?  The area at the lower part of the photo.

 2        A.   You mean left on the photograph?  Is that what you mean?  When I

 3     look at the photograph, the left side?

 4        Q.   I mean the bottom part of the photograph, the bottom left.

 5             Mr. Katic, perhaps --

 6        A.   Yes, yes.

 7        Q.   So just to simplify things, we can agree that the red building

 8     was almost entirely surrounded by VRS forces; correct?

 9        A.   Not quite.  Not completely.  On the right-hand side on this

10     picture there were forces of the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11        Q.   Thank you.  At paragraph 16 of your statement you say:

12             "It was possible to fire shots from this building on the area in

13     front of the Holiday Inn, S curve area, to cause incidents.  This means

14     that Bosnian soldiers could have fired shots in order to cause

15     incidents."

16             And then you seem to backtrack somewhat from this statement and

17     then you say:

18             "Nonetheless some tall buildings and trees could obstruct the

19     line of sight between the S curve area and the red building."

20             Mr. Katic, I'd like you to examine this photo and examine the

21     line of sight from the Muslim-held part of the red building to the

22     Holiday Inn.  And you'll agree that the first obstruction is the tall

23     building to the left of the building marked 1 on the map.  Isn't that

24     correct?

25        A.   From the red building, regardless of whether it's marked with S

Page 31409

 1     or M, it was possible to shoot at Holiday Inn.

 2        Q.   Well, again, Mr. Katic --

 3        A.   Just a moment.  That's why I said in my previous statement that

 4     the building I marked as the Metaljka building was impossible for

 5     soldiers of the Army of Republika Srpska to occupy on the roof or the

 6     upper floors because of the possibility that soldiers from the red

 7     building marked with M could fire.

 8        Q.   Mr. Katic, I think we can agree that anybody standing on the roof

 9     of the red building or, indeed, the Metaljka building, would be exposed

10     to fire from the opposite side.  Is that correct?

11        A.   That's correct.

12        Q.   And we can also agree that there was nothing preventing soldiers

13     from taking positions in the upper floor of the Metaljka building, and as

14     you already confirmed in your previous testimony there were, in fact,

15     soldiers on the upper floor - correct - and as you confirmed today?

16        A.   That's right.

17        Q.   And now focusing on the red building, leaving aside the issue of

18     the Metaljka building, focusing on the red building, I'd like you to

19     examine the line of sight between the red building and the S curve area

20     in front of the Holiday Inn -- in fact, perhaps if we look at this line

21     of sight from a different perspective it may be even clearer to you.

22             MS. McKENNA:  Could we please see D2526.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we learn the date and time

24     when the photograph was taken to be sure that everything we see on the

25     picture existed then.

Page 31410

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we all know.  Let us proceed.

 2             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 3        Q.   Now, again, Mr. Katic, I'd like you to examine the line of

 4     sight -- if you can orientate yourself, can you see the red building in

 5     the top left-hand corner of the photograph?

 6        A.   I see the red building.

 7        Q.   And again, I'd ask you to focus on the line of sight between the

 8     ABiH-held part of that building --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Ms. McKenna.  Why don't you ask the

10     witness to mark the red building on this photo.

11             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12        Q.   Mr. Katic, could you please mark the red building on this photo.

13     The usher will assist you.

14        A.   [Marks]

15        Q.   Mr. Katic, I think we'll have to go back to the previous photo so

16     you can orientate yourself correctly.  Would you like to make a

17     correction?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we can -- you can delete your marking.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I see red and then I see it's

20     a new building.

21             MS. McKENNA:

22        Q.   So just to clarify, the X you've placed is not on the smaller red

23     building, but the larger longer building behind the small building;

24     correct?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 31411

 1             JUDGE KWON:  To be clearer, you may circle the building.

 2             MS. McKENNA:

 3        Q.   Perhaps, Mr. Katic, you could circle the ABiH-held part of the

 4     building.

 5        A.   [Marks]

 6        Q.   Thank you very much.  Now, again focusing on the line of sight

 7     between that part of the building and the S curve area in front of the

 8     Holiday Inn - and we can zoom in on the buildings -- the tall building in

 9     front of the red building if it would be helpful, but you will agree that

10     along that line of sight you first are obstructed by the tall building to

11     the left of the Metaljka building on this photograph; isn't that correct?

12        A.   Would you repeat the question, please.

13        Q.   Mr. Katic, an ABiH soldier shooting downwards from that part of

14     the building held by the ABiH would be obstructed by the tall buildings

15     in front of him on the VRS-held side of the Miljacka river; isn't that

16     correct?

17        A.   That's correct.

18             THE ACCUSED:  May I have an intervention.  First I should know

19     whether Mr. Katic speaks English or not.

20             MS. McKENNA:

21        Q.   Mr. Katic, do you speak English?

22        A.   I don't speak English.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Could you kindly take off your headphones for the

24     moment.

25             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 31412

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe, Your Excellency -- [In

 2     English] Sorry, I have to speak in English.  I believe, Excellencies,

 3     that those questions are misleading since Mr. Katic was not deployed in

 4     this area.  All of those guesses and speculations --

 5             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour --

 6             THE ACCUSED:  -- are not taking into account levels and

 7     trajectories and anything, just speculation that I can't recover during

 8     the --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But, Mr. Karadzic, take a look at paragraph 16.

10     Paragraph 16 the witness stated that it was possible to fire shots from

11     this building on the area in front of Holiday Inn, S curve area, to cause

12     incidents.  So it's --

13             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, Excellency.  But why we don't have -- why we

14     don't have better photo?  Because this photo is -- the angle is

15     completely wrong and it can't be proven what --

16             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour --

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, but then if it's -- you can re-examine the

18     witness with more proper photo in your turn.

19             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Then let's continue.

21             Mr. Katic, I hope you understand my body language.  Yes, thank

22     you.

23             That can't express my gesture.  Yes, let's continue.

24             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, if I may briefly examine the record.

25             Your Honour, I have no further questions for this witness.

Page 31413

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we ask the witness to date and sign this

 2     photo?

 3             MS. McKENNA:  Thank you for the reminder, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Katic, could you please date and sign this photo in the

 5     bottom corner.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7             MS. McKENNA:  And if I may tender this, Your Honour.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number P6045, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Katic, first of all, was your battalion

14     deployed here in this area?

15        A.   Our battalion was not deployed in this area.

16        Q.   Where was your battalion deployed and how far is that?

17        A.   Our battalion was deployed in the sector overlooking Debelo Brdo

18     via Zlatiste up to Osmice on the road towards Trebevic.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we clarify what "your battalion" or "our

20     battalion" means.  When he was serving as a battalion member or when he

21     was the president of Novo Sarajevo?

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   When you were in the army, according to what is stated in

24     paragraph -- up to 13 March, where were you deployed until 13 March?

25        A.   I said a moment ago when I said "our battalion," that's the

Page 31414

 1     battalion where I was up to 13 March in the Army of Republika Srpska, in

 2     the sector.  From Debelo Brdo via Zlatiste, up to Osmice, on the road

 3     leading to Trebevic.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Katic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now call up 65 ter 21215,

 6     a photograph from another vantage point.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Could you, first of all, mark the buildings where the Muslim army

 9     had positions or controlled, which other buildings did they control,

10     apart from the red one, on the left side of the Miljacka river -- or even

11     better, could you mark the buildings they controlled as well as the part

12     of the area at Brdo they controlled?

13        A.   Shall I draw the separation line as it was during the war?

14        Q.   Yes, do draw that line.

15        A.   To the right.

16        Q.   Did that line go between the buildings uphill?

17        A.   Yes, it did go uphill, towards the top, towards the Jewish

18     cemetery, which is at the top.

19        Q.   Could you write an S on the left-hand side and M on the

20     right-hand side in Latinic script.

21        A.   [Marks]

22        Q.   Thank you.  Was there optical visibility from these positions on

23     the mountaintops in terms of the part of the road that was in front of

24     the Holiday Inn hotel?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you're -- yes, Ms. McKenna.

Page 31415

 1             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, this is outside the scope of the

 2     cross-examination, which was focused simply on the line of visibility

 3     from the ABiH-held part of the red building.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  I don't think the cross-examination can be

 8     construed that narrowly.  The issue is if someone was sniped on in front

 9     of the Holiday Inn, which side was it coming from, so I don't think --

10             JUDGE KWON:  But take a look at paragraph 16 of the witness's

11     statement.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I've seen paragraph 16 but does that --

13             JUDGE KWON:  It deals with exclusively red building.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, it does but does that -- we're not limited by

15     that.  If he wants to say -- if the implication is that there's no way

16     that the Muslims could have shot someone in front of that Holiday Inn

17     building, then Dr. Karadzic is entitled to show they could have shot from

18     all kinds of places.  He's not limited to the red building to rebut that

19     inference.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, just a second.

21             Interpretation has only now been completed.

22             Yes, Ms. McKenna.

23             MS. McKENNA:  Your Honour, the cross-examination was limited

24     solely to the issue of the possibility of -- the witness's contention was

25     that there was a line of sight between the ABiH-held part of the red

Page 31416

 1     building and the S curve in front of the Holiday Inn.  That was the sole

 2     topic of the cross-examination, and anything broader than that does not

 3     stem from the cross-examination.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I believe that

 5     Ms. McKenna also asked on this picture to tell -- for him to tell where

 6     the Serbs were and where the Muslims were.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, I think we have heard enough.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Given the relevance of the issue, we would allow the

10     accused to pose the questions.  But if necessary, we would also allow the

11     Prosecution to put further questions if necessary.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I'm sorry, I'd like to raise a

13     slightly broader point.  This may not -- about this kind of statement

14     followed by these kinds of questions on re-direct.  This may not be the

15     moment to do it but --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, I would not entertain your submission.

17     Why don't we proceed.

18             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.  But I'd like to reserve the opportunity to do

19     so, Mr. President.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Katic, Madam McKenna asked you about these buildings behind

24     the red building to the south, who they belonged to.  Did you mark it in

25     the following way now that part of these buildings that went uphill

Page 31417

 1     belonged to the Muslim side and another part belonged to the Serb side?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  From this point of view do you know or do you believe

 4     that there is visibility between this vantage point and the red building

 5     and the Holiday Inn?

 6        A.   Now that I look at this photograph, I see a building here which

 7     is taller than the red building.  Probably it was built later in peace

 8     time.  Optically speaking, one could not fire from the red building now

 9     that I'm looking at the location in front of the Holiday Inn.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Could one fire from these high areas close to the

11     Jewish cemetery?  Could one fire at this section of the road?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked whether any Serb soldiers could have

14     been on the higher floors of Metaljka.  You said that that was possible

15     but that then they would have been under threat.  I'm not asking you

16     whether that was possible.  I'm asking you whether there actually were

17     soldiers up there on the higher floors.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer, Mr. Katic.

19             Yes, Ms. McKenna.

20             MS. McKENNA:  This question was asked and answered.  The witness

21     already confirmed that there were soldiers on the upper floors of the

22     Metaljka building.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree with Ms. McKenna.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The answer wasn't given to me,

25     Excellency.  The answer was given to the OTP, that it was -- that it

Page 31418

 1     could have happened.  But I'm asking in re-direct now not only whether

 2     that could have been happened, but I'm asking whether he saw from the

 3     front line that there actually were soldiers up on those higher floors.

 4     So I'm actually changing my question.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Were you at the front line as a soldier and did you see soldiers

 7     on these higher floors?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  From which army, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Serb army?  I'm talking about

10     Metaljka, the Metaljka building.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understood.  I understood the

13     question.  I was never as a soldier on this position and, and, there is

14     this reality.  Soldiers were everywhere on first floors or in basements

15     at the front line to guard their positions.  But I did not claim then

16     that they could have climbed the roof or these higher floors.  I did not

17     see them.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned that on higher floors --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I -- proceed.

21                           [Defence counsel confer]

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You mentioned that on higher floors they could have been under

24     threat from the red building.  Could they have been under threat from

25     some facility on the right bank of the Miljacka that was under the

Page 31419

 1     control of the Muslim forces, and can you tell us which buildings existed

 2     from which one could fire at Metaljka?

 3        A.   All the buildings on the right bank of the Miljacka river - well,

 4     not all of them but most of them - are taller than the Assembly building,

 5     the Holiday Inn building, and over here the well-known Unis buildings

 6     that were called Momo and Uzeir, that's what we called them.  All of

 7     these were more dominant in relation to the Metaljka building, that is,

 8     on the Serb side.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked whether they could shoot.  Do you have

10     any information to the effect that Serb soldiers intentionally fired at

11     the area in front of the Holiday Inn?

12        A.   I do not have any information of the Serb soldiers ever

13     intentionally shooting at civilians.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Could I kindly ask you to place the date and your

15     initials on this photograph.

16        A.   [Marks]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Next Defence exhibit.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number D2655, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Katic, in one of the questions -- in one of the

20     answers you gave to Mr. Karadzic's question you stated - it's transcript

21     page 61, line 24 and on:  I understood the question:

22             "I was never as a soldier on this position and there is this

23     reality," you're talking about this red building or Metaljka -- oh, yes,

24     Metaljka building.  "Soldiers were everywhere on first floors or in

25     basements at the front line to guard their position, but I did not claim

Page 31420

 1     then that they could have climbed the roof or these higher floors.  I did

 2     not see them."

 3             So I'm not sure if there's a translation issue, but I limit my

 4     question to the case related to the higher floors -- rooms located in

 5     higher floors, be it sixth floor, seventh floor, or fifth floor.  I'm not

 6     meaning the roof.

 7             In your earlier answer to the question posed by Ms. McKenna you

 8     stated that, and I -- it is after my intervention, you confirmed that

 9     there were armed people in that building in the -- on the upper floor of

10     that building --

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, are you reading from

12     transcript 49 --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  -- lines 21 --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  But he says "could," there could have been.

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, I will read out my question.  The question

18     was -- this is what I said -- it's line 25 of transcript 49.  The

19     question was whether there were men with rifles on the upper floor of

20     that building."

21             And witness's answer:

22             "Judge, sir, there were armed people in that building."

23             So you confirmed that there were armed people on the upper floor

24     of that Metaljka building, and now you are claiming that you didn't see

25     the armed men.  So what was your basis in confirming that there were

Page 31421

 1     armed people on the upper floor of Metaljka building, Mr. Katic?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me tell you.  In these

 3     buildings, not all the tenants were moved out.  In some buildings there

 4     were families that lived there.  It is possible that on some floor a

 5     family had stayed behind with two soldiers who lived there and could have

 6     weapons and did have weapons in their apartment.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Katic.  I'll leave it at that.

 8             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In terms of continuity with this question put by His Excellency,

11     Mr. Kwon, can you tell us from your own experience whether people fired

12     from buildings where their families were; and if so, what were the

13     reasons?

14        A.   They certainly did not fire from their apartments, these soldiers

15     who lived in these apartments.

16        Q.   For what reason?

17        A.   Well, because this was not the place.  He had a particular

18     military place where he went to this -- to defend this military line that

19     had been taken.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  For planning purposes, do you have

22     many questions more?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Five or six minutes, Excellency.

24     Five minutes, whatever you prefer.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to have further cross-examination,

Page 31422

 1     Ms. McKenna?

 2             MS. McKENNA:  At this stage, no, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Then shall we continue.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly take a look at

 5     D2623.  And could Mr. Katic please be assisted as he uses the pen -- I

 6     paper P6044.  It's a Prosecution document, 6044.  Can it be enlarged a

 7     bit more.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Mr. Katic, what is under this red line that you drew?

10        A.   Underneath the red line is the Miljacka river.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now I'd like to ask you the following:  Do you see

12     this curve, S, on the road right in front of the Holiday Inn?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this being zoomed in a bit

14     more?  All right.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   It seems that the vehicles stopped at the traffic light.  Do you

17     see this S line where the tram moves from one side to the other?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be zoomed in a bit more now?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see this.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you see it now, Mr. Katic, on the road itself?

22        A.   I see --

23        Q.   Do you see where the tram forks off and moves to the right-hand

24     side towards the faculty, do you see that S curve?

25        A.   I see it here.

Page 31423

 1        Q.   Can you draw a line on this S curve.

 2        A.   [Marks]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could you now please draw a line for us along the

 4     pavement on the street called Rackog, can you cut across this curve.

 5     Yes, yes, just go on that way.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Could I kindly ask you to place the date there and

 8     your initials.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see the point of these markings,

10     Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, it can be seen clearly

12     that the point is that the faculty shields the S curve and that from the

13     S curve one cannot fire from Metaljka.  I can't put that question as

14     well, but I just wanted someone who was from the area to mark these

15     relations.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Then if that was the point we need to have these

17     markings in a not-zoomed big photo.  So could we ask the witness to mark

18     these -- make these markings again on the original one now that he

19     understood where the S mark is.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Could I kindly ask you, Mr. Katic, to now draw the same line,

22     these same two lines.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Is he able to mark now?  Yes.

24             THE WITNESS:  [Marks]

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 31424

 1        Q.   Thank you.  In your opinion, can something on this curve be hit

 2     from Metaljka?

 3        A.   From Metaljka here on the road, the S curve, the tram cannot be

 4     hit because the faculty building is there.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now place the date and your initials there.

 6        A.   [Marks]

 7        Q.   Just one more question, Mr. Katic.  As president of the

 8     municipality you knew what the powers of the municipality were and the

 9     domain of defence.  The municipality and local communes, did they have

10     their own organisations of Territorial Defence?

11        A.   They had a defence department, not local communes, but the

12     municipality did have a defence department.

13        Q.   What about the Territorial Defence, how was it regulated in that

14     system of ours?  Companies, the municipality, local communes, did they

15     have their Territorial Defences and where did they keep their weapons?

16        A.   Correct.  I don't know where the Territorial Defence kept their

17     weapons.  That was decided in the former Yugoslavia -- rather, the former

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  In the Territorial Defence, apart from the National

19     Defence department, is something we didn't have.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I tender this document?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You have been asked about the provenance of weapons when the war

23     broke out and you said they came from the JNA barracks.  Was there any

24     relationship between the JNA and the TO and did TO units have their own

25     weapons?

Page 31425

 1        A.   Territorial Defence units had their own weapons separate from the

 2     JNA arsenal, but I don't know where their depots were.  I suppose that

 3     the depots of weapons of the Novo Sarajevo municipality TO were in

 4     Lukavica.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Katic.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No further questions.  Can this be

 7     admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be Exhibit D2656.

 9             Then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Katic -- I'm sorry, I

10     didn't ask you, Ms. McKenna, no --

11             MS. McKENNA:  No further questions, Your Honour.

12             JUDGE KWON:  -- re-cross.  Thank you.

13             So I thank you, Mr. Katic, for your coming to The Hague to give

14     it.  Now you are free to go.  But we'll rise all together and we'll have

15     a --

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a 45-minute break and resume at 25 past

18     1.00.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.41 p.m.

21                           [The witness entered court]

22                           --- On resuming at 1.28 p.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let the witness make the solemn declaration, please.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

25     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Page 31426

 1                           WITNESS:  LUKA DRAGICEVIC

 2                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Dragicevic.  Please take a seat and

 4     make yourself comfortable.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dragicevic, before you start giving evidence,

 7     I'd like to draw your attention to a particular rule here at the

 8     Tribunal.  Under Rule -- under this rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to

 9     answering a question from the accused, the Prosecution, or from the

10     Judges if you believe that your answer will incriminate you.  When I say

11     "incriminate," I mean that something you say may amount to an admission

12     of your guilt for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you

13     have committed an offence.  However, even if your answer will incriminate

14     you and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal has the

15     power to compel you to answer the question.  But in such a case, the

16     Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way shall

17     not be used as evidence in other case against you for any offence other

18     than false testimony.  Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Dragicevic.

21             Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Colonel Dragicevic.

25        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President, and good afternoon to everybody.

Page 31427

 1        Q.   The two of us speak the same language which is why I need to ask

 2     you to make a pause after my question to allow the interpreters to

 3     interpret every single word of yours because all your words are

 4     important.  Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D6903 in

 7     e-court.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Do you see a statement in front of you on the screen?

10        A.   Yes, I can see the first page of it.

11        Q.   Did you read this statement and did you sign it?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Does this statement contain everything you said and does the

14     statement reflect your words correctly?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today, would your

17     answers to the same questions be the same?

18        A.   They would be the same to the last detail.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I am tendering this

21     92 ter package into evidence.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We would ask permission for

24     adding the three associated exhibits to the 65 ter list.  We were not

25     aware of these documents at the time we submitted our list.

Page 31428

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Before I give the floor to Mr. Nicholls, first with

 2     respect to 65 ter number 01369, I take it that you are tendering only

 3     page in English version that contains the relevant part?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would object to that, Your Honour.  I mean, I --

 7     it's not a very long document.  I think for completeness we should have

 8     the whole of that article in.  The Prosecution has no objection to -- if

 9     I'm talking about the correct -- yes, 01369.  I would move that the

10     entire article come in.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Aha.  You object to the partial admission?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, it's not a very long document.

13             JUDGE KWON:  It's not an objection to the admission itself?

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, I would like the document to come in.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  And this is --

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, this is a Prosecution 65 ter number, so if

19     they can take care of that, this 01369, it's a 65 ter document from the

20     Prosecution.

21             JUDGE KWON:  What do you mean by taking care of it?  You

22     translated only page 7?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, if they could upload it -- if they have a

24     full translation, if they can upload that, that's what I mean.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  We can do that.  Thank you.

Page 31429

 1             JUDGE KWON:  With respect to the previous one, i.e., 1D6902 ,

 2     it's a bit difficult to follow how this is relevant or of any probative

 3     value or forms indispensable and inseparable part of witness's statement.

 4     So, if necessary, I would like the accused to lead live with the witness

 5     with respect to this document.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, I don't want to interrupt you.  I object to

 9     this document even being considered for admission.  One, it probably

10     shouldn't have been disclosed in the first place because it's a work

11     product.  It's all the legal impressions of an attorney.  Two, as you

12     said, under no circumstances would this have any relevance for the reason

13     I just stated.  It's the opinion of somebody who was working on a file.

14             JUDGE KWON:  But -- of course we'll decide whether to admit it

15     after hearing the evidence, but would it not be relevant to the

16     credibility issue?

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour, because that was my third point,

18     is the way it's being admitted and what is being admitted is in a very

19     misleading way.  First of all, in paragraph 49 it states that this

20     document, 1D6902, is related to an investigation that the Prosecution

21     conducted against me.  That's not true.  This is not relevant to an OTP

22     investigation into a prosecution against Mr. Dragicevic.  That's just not

23     correct.  What this document represents --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a -- I'm sorry to interrupt you.  But that --

25     so if I order the Defence to lead live with respect to that paragraph,

Page 31430

 1     your concerns will be resolved.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  All right.  Thank you, Your Honour.  I would just

 3     make one other point.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  That what this document represents, 1D6902, is a

 6     review of a file that was sent to the OTP, and the Defence have attached

 7     only the first two pages of this voluminous untranslated file.  So for

 8     this analysis to have any meaning, Your Honours, I think even if it were

 9     to be admitted - which I would object to - would need the complete file

10     in order to see whether you agree with the analysis here.

11             JUDGE KWON:  So let's deal with it when it arises.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, Mr. President, so I can just give

14     Dr. Karadzic some advice about when we would use this document.  Is it

15     the position -- does the Prosecution intend to ask any questions

16     concerning Gorazde municipality of this witness during its

17     cross-examination?  If it doesn't, I don't think we would need to bother

18     with the document.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm not prepared to disclose one sentence of my

20     cross at this point.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So shall we give the number of -- for the 92 ter

23     statement?

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 1D6903 receives number D2658,

25     Your Honours.

Page 31431

 1             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll admit the 1D6094 [sic] as an associated

 2     exhibit.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number D2659, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll admit 1D6902 -- no, no, I'm sorry,

 5     65 ter number 1369 in its entirety, as requested by the Prosecution.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  And receives number D2660, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  And I take it with the assistance of the

 8     Prosecution, the entire translation will be uploaded very soon in due

 9     course.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I just wanted to say

12     that only these two pages were disclosed to me with regard to the last

13     document from paragraph 49.  And now I would like to read the summary of

14     Colonel Dragicevic's statement in English.

15             [In English] Colonel Luka Dragicevic joined the VRS in July 1992

16     and in October 1992 he was appointed the commander of the

17     Visegrad Brigade.  In August 1993 he was appointed Chief of Staff to the

18     Tactical Group Visegrad and at the end of November 1994 he was appointed

19     assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs in

20     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.

21             In the second half of 1991, JNA members were ordered to attend

22     work in their own civilian clothing due to the attacks that had occurred

23     against the JNA personnel by paramilitaries like Juka Prazina and his

24     men.  He received information that a large number of Muslims had been

25     sent to Croatia and to the MUP in Croatia for military training.  He

Page 31432

 1     further found out that the Patriotic League training centre had been set

 2     up in Igman mount as a result of the JNA increased combat-readiness

 3     amongst its troops.  A mass exodus of the Muslim officers from JNA

 4     occurred in March/April 1992, when all left at their own request and were

 5     not expelled from the service due to their ethnicities.

 6             At the end of 1991, JNA officers were attacked in Slovenia and

 7     Croatia, with barracks being under blockade and supplies, water and

 8     electricity were cut off, and large number of the JNA were -- members

 9     were injured or killed.  During their withdrawal from Croatia, the JNA

10     was attacked in the BH primarily by the Green Berets and the

11     Patriotic League.

12             The main goal of the VRS was to defend and protect the people who

13     were on the territory under its control.  The strategy was not to seize

14     all of B&H but to defend those parts which ethnically belonged to the

15     Serbian people and to people who were in favour of preserving Yugoslavia.

16     However, the strategy of the opposition was to capture -- the opposite

17     side was to capture the whole Bosnia -- of BH which was the core of their

18     offensive operations.  The ethnic make-up of the population in Sarajevo

19     and surrounding areas was such that the predominantly Serbian settlements

20     were concentrated around the city centre.  This situation existed

21     naturally, no one created it recently.

22             At the same time -- at that time when Luka Dragicevic joined the

23     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, sanctions issued by the Federal Republic of

24     Yugoslavia were in force against the Republika Srpska and there was a

25     shortage of food, fuel, ammunition, particularly large-calibre artillery

Page 31433

 1     ammunition.  Rigorous steps were taken to conserve ammunition and fuel

 2     and measures were taken to fortify the defence positions.

 3             When Colonel Dragicevic joined the -- he became -- he became

 4     aware of intelligence that a large-scale spring offensive was planned by

 5     BH army.  Any truce signed by Muslim military or political

 6     representatives would allow their forces to strengthen their own

 7     position.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps at this point did not have any

 8     reserve forces or free units.

 9             Between December 1994 and April 1995, there were continuous

10     attacks in Sarajevo from the Muslim-controlled area of Sarajevo.  Often

11     at the BH army forces would open fire from schools, kindergartens,

12     hospitals, and apartment buildings in civilian zones.  The

13     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, to avoid civilian casualties, was requested to

14     only fire at the enemy's visible firing points which were inflicting

15     losses to the army or civilians on the Serb side.

16             Due to the enemy offensive, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

17     considered it necessary to obtain some of the heavy weapons placed under

18     the control of UNPROFOR.  As soon as this occurred, the Serbian side was

19     bombed by NATO even though none of the weapons taken had been used.

20     Following this, there was a powerful offensive from the BH against the

21     Serb positions.  Higher commands forbid the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

22     beginning any operation against the UNPROFOR locations, even when they

23     were being fired at from because locations -- from these locations by

24     Muslim forces.  As far as Colonel Luka Dragicevic is aware, neither the

25     corps commander nor any higher- or lower-ranking commander ever issued

Page 31434

 1     any orders for combat operations against UNPROFOR unless the UNPROFOR

 2     forces attacked their units first.  He does not know of any cases of war

 3     crimes committed in the zone of responsibility of Sarajevo-Romanija Corps

 4     whilst he was in command.  He is not aware of any facilities used to hold

 5     civilian prisoners.  Imprisoned members of the BH army were under the

 6     authority of the security organs.  He did not hear of or read about any

 7     cases of maltreatment.  Colonel Luka Dragicevic has knowledge about

 8     UNPROFOR members being imprisoned in the military sense, which was done

 9     pursuant to an order from the superior commands.  It was communicated to

10     them why they were being imprisoned and there were no reasons for

11     conflicts or combat; it was a protective and defensive measure.

12             There was no opportunity for the Serbian investigative organs to

13     investigate specific events to confirm the other side's claims about

14     Serbian responsibility for the specific incident.  Any requests made by

15     investigate -- made to investigate incidents by the mixed military

16     commissions were refused by the Muslim side.  The offer from the Serbian

17     side to have Sarajevo be an open city was categorically rejected by the

18     Muslim side.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps never cut off electricity,

19     water, and gas supplies to the part of Sarajevo under Muslim control and

20     humanitarian aid was never obstructed and passed whenever it was

21     possible.

22             [Interpretation] This would be the summary.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I would like to ask you, Colonel, sir, about something that falls

25     within your purview of moral guidance and legal affairs.

Page 31435

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up P02691.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   While you worked within this administration of the army, did you

 4     organise some training courses and seminars?

 5        A.   Yes, I did.  We did that actually most commonly at those times

 6     when conditions for combat were not as good, i.e., when there was the

 7     least likelihood for an enemy offensive.  And that was usually during

 8     winter-time.  We mostly carried out training in the area of moral

 9     guidance, legal affairs, and Serbian traditions.  And that happened

10     usually in February and March.  The training was carried out and involved

11     the command cadre, including platoon commanders, company commanders,

12     battalion commanders, and their assistants for moral guidance, as well as

13     brigade commanders.  I apologise.  And the objective of the training was

14     to inform the command cadre who would then pass the knowledge on to their

15     troops.  We could not involve all of the troops in the corps into such

16     training.  And it all had to do with the building of combat morale, the

17     rights of soldiers, informing them about rules of war, certain

18     traditions, and so on and so forth.  After that, there would be a

19     gathering involving the highest levels of command at the brigade level,

20     who had attended the training.  That would be a seminar as a result of

21     which we drew conclusions on how successful was the training, whether the

22     objectives were achieved, whether there could be some improvement made,

23     and conclusions that the lower-level command cadre as to what needed to

24     be done at our level or lower levels with regard to the problems that

25     were encountered in the units, and that hampered our struggle.

Page 31436

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Here you report, or rather, you convey a lot of

 2     criticism that may be heard in the trenches by the troops.

 3        A.   However, the gist of that document is our request upon the

 4     General Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska and the higher levels of

 5     the state leadership, the Supreme Command and the government, and that

 6     for this to be presented in this form or a somewhat more stringent form;

 7     and the objective was to start to deal with the problems that kept on

 8     piling up for years into the war.

 9        Q.   I believe that something was not recorded.  Is it correct that

10     you have just said that you also covered topics of the Law of War?

11        A.   Yes, everything that fell within the purview of legal services,

12     the administration for morale, and in my department in the corps command,

13     because I was in charge of morale guidance, of law, and religious

14     affairs.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I have no

17     further questions for Colonel Dragicevic at this moment and the document

18     that I have used has already been admitted as tendered by the

19     Prosecution.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Then I take it para that 49 should be redacted?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, although we are reserving the

22     right to use that document in re-direct examination but we can redact --

23             JUDGE KWON:  But we can redact the paragraph from the statement?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

Page 31437

 1             Mr. Dragicevic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief was

 2     admitted in most part in writing and you'll be further cross-examined by

 3     the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Nicholls.

 4                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

 5        Q.   Good afternoon, sir.

 6        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. Prosecutor.

 7        Q.   You've testified here in this Tribunal before; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   On the 26th and the 27th of March, 2007?

10        A.   Correct.

11        Q.   In the Dragomir Milosevic case, for which you were subpoenaed or

12     summoned to come and testify?

13        A.   Correct.

14        Q.   You began that testimony by taking a solemn declaration to tell

15     the truth?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   Just like today?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   And you were truthful in that prior testimony, were you?

20        A.   I was truthful.  I related the information that I had at the

21     time.  I was truthful then and I will be truthful today.

22        Q.   Good.  I want to touch on something that Mr. Karadzic referred to

23     in his summary.  In your prior testimony you testified that regarding the

24     entire time you were assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal

25     affairs in the SRK, you could not recall a single instance of a commander

Page 31438

 1     within the SRK reporting a criminal violation of the international laws

 2     of war to the military prosecutor.  Correct?  Not a single report?

 3        A.   Those were reports that were sent to the military prosecutor.

 4     That was not within my purview.  I knew nothing of reports that may have

 5     been sent to the military prosecutor's office.

 6        Q.   All right.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 24297, please, e-court page

 8     17.

 9        Q.   This is your prior testimony, sir, I'm going to read it out to

10     you.  It's in English so I'll read it out to you verbatim this is from

11     T3983 of the transcript, 26th of March, 2007, lines 8 to 20.  You're

12     being questioned by Mr. Whiting.  And he says:

13             "I want to move on to a new topic now.

14             "Q. During the time -- during the time that you were assistant

15     commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs from the beginning of

16     December 1994 until the end of the war, do you recall any instances where

17     a commander from the SRK reported a criminal violation of the

18     international laws of war to the military prosecutor?"

19             Answer, your answer:

20             "I never learned of heard something like that happening in the

21     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in the period that you referred to.  As far as I

22     can remember, if there had been any such thing in these reports from the

23     Prosecutor's office, then certainly officers from the command would have

24     received information about that and appropriate measures would have been

25     taken."

Page 31439

 1             So you stand by that testimony?

 2        A.   Yes.  Once a month we received information from the Prosecutor's

 3     office on --

 4        Q.   Sorry, I'm going to stop you.  The question was whether you stand

 5     by that information and you answered that question.  You can answer these

 6     types of questions more on re-direct --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Nicholls kindly speak into the

 8     microphone, please.  Thank you.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wish to say --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, why don't we hear him out.

12             Yes, please continue, Mr. Dragicevic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I swore that I would say the whole

14     truth, not only part of the truth.  Part of the truth is not the whole

15     truth.  It is correct that we received information every month, a regular

16     report about the issues that were dealt with by the military prosecutor,

17     and that's how we learned whether there were problems or not that were to

18     be dealt by the prosecutor's office.  We only knew that based on the

19     prosecutor's reports.  We could not influence those.  But rather, based

20     on such reports we ourselves decided what needed to be done, so as to

21     prevent any such future incidents or to punish something that may have

22     occurred in the past.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dragicevic, the question was not about the

24     report from the prosecutor, military prosecutor.  Rather, the question

25     was about commander's report to the military prosecutor, and your answer

Page 31440

 1     was you never learned of -- heard of anything like that.  Do you stand by

 2     that answer?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I stand by that answer.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 6        Q.   Now I want to move to a different topic and just quickly go

 7     through a bit of your military background.  If we could have e-court

 8     pages 3 to 4 of the same document, we're on 65 ter 24297.  I'm just going

 9     to go through a bit of your background.  This is from your testimony at

10     3969:

11             "You became a member of the VRS in the Army of Republika Srpska

12     on the 19th July, 1992, and on that day you were appointed Chief of Staff

13     of an infantry brigade in Visegrad.  That infantry brigade was first

14     known as the Visegrad Brigade, later known as the 2nd Light Infantry

15     Podrinjska Brigade.  When the Drina Corps was formed in November of 1992,

16     that brigade became part of the Drina Corps.  You were appointed

17     commander of that brigade on the 26th of October, 1992, and you remained

18     commander until August of 1993.  At that time you were appointed head of

19     staff of the Visegrad Tactical Group to co-ordinate the work of various

20     brigades.

21             "Is that all correct up to now?"

22             And your answer is:

23             "Yes, it is."

24             So that's all a summary of your early career in the VRS; is that

25     right?

Page 31441

 1        A.   It is perhaps not true that I was appointed Chief of Staff of the

 2     brigade the same day.  I'm sure that order must have arrived a bit later

 3     because it was not possible that I be appointed the same day as Chief of

 4     Staff of the brigade, but the gist is true.

 5        Q.   Okay.  All right.  Let's look at some of your early work.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I please have 65 ter 24333.

 7        Q.   This is the 2nd of April, 1994, document from the

 8     Visegrad Tactical Group --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Nicholls kindly speak into the

10     microphone.  Thank you.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:

12        Q.   -- to the command of the Drina Corps, and it's an order to

13     intensify combat operations.  And we can see under the main heading

14     "order to intensify combat operations," that this is pursuant to a

15     warning issued by the Main Staff.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go to page 2, please, of the English,

17     staying on page 1 of the Serbian.  Sorry, page 2 of the Serbian as well.

18        Q.   Now, we can see that part of this order is to co-ordinate the

19     actions from Ustipraca and those of the unit infiltrated in the region of

20     Gojcevici.  And then it says in number 3.

21             "All actions from the Lisac facility to the village of Djakovica

22     will be linked up and directly co-ordinated by Chief of Staff of the

23     Tactical Group Lieutenant-Colonel Luka Dragicevic ..."

24             And that's you, correct, sir?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 31442

 1        Q.   I want to show you another document and then I'll ask you a

 2     question about these.  But this order came down as we can see based on

 3     the order from the Main Staff; correct?

 4        A.   No.  This order came from the commander of the Tactical Group

 5     Visegrad, Colonel Dragisa Masal.

 6        Q.   Correct.  Can we go back to page 1.  If you can see here under

 7     the main heading "order to intensify combat operations," it says that

 8     this is pursuant to a warning from the Main Staff, that's what I was

 9     referring to.

10        A.   The commander of Tactical Group Visegrad received a warning from

11     the Main Staff of the VRS and is now acting upon that warning and the

12     orders contained therein from the Main Staff of the VRS.  He's

13     implementing that order, issuing his own orders to lower-level units in

14     the spirit of that warning.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go to 65 ter 24323.

17        Q.   This is a report from you to the command of the Visegrad Tactical

18     Group from two days later, 4th of April, combat report.

19             "1.  A group of 15 combatants crossed over the Praca river on 3

20     of April, 1994, at about 1900 hours and reconnoitred the village

21     Gojcevici.  Nothing special was noticed.

22             "On 4th of April, 1994, at 4.30 the same group will cross the

23     Praca river and set the village of Gojcevici on fire, in line with the

24     conditions of the village of Surovi ..."

25             Signed by you?

Page 31443

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   This is a genuine document?

 3        A.   Really quite soldierly.

 4        Q.   Yes.  And it is talking about going and setting a village on

 5     fire.  Do you know the ethnicity of the village of Gojcevici, of all the

 6     people who lived there?

 7        A.   This was a hamlet of only three houses -- in fact, it had three

 8     houses on the forward front line and there were no inhabitants there.  It

 9     was the forward defence line of the 1st Division of Gorazde, of the

10     Muslim army.

11        Q.   Mm-hmm.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  And could we look at the next document, 65 ter

13     08105.

14        Q.   This is the next day.  This document is again from you, an

15     interim combat report, stating that you have liberated the village of

16     Gojcevici; correct?

17        A.   Correct, but let me just explain.  We, in fact, conquered the

18     first defence line of the enemy side, the sector that was in the

19     village -- I mean, it's a village on the map and we have to use that

20     term, but it was not actually a village in the sense that there were no

21     people living there.  There were just soldiers from the

22     1st Gorazde Division, and there was their military equipment.  Let me

23     just explain this about setting things on fire.  There were three houses

24     in that hamlet in the sector of their forward defence line.  Those houses

25     had been devastated and they were converted into strongholds of

Page 31444

 1     resistance.  There were strong infantry assets there and in the previous

 2     period they even fired a Maljutka for there.  I barely escaped such an

 3     attack from a Maljutka in the vehicle in which I was.  So that position

 4     in Gojcevici was close to Surovo, which was their reserve position.  That

 5     had been going on for one year and the distance between our lines was no

 6     more than 300 metres.  In some places it was 100 metres.  And for a year

 7     we had been reconnoitring each other, occasionally firing at each other,

 8     we knew very well what was going on on their forward line and they knew

 9     what we were doing on our line because you could see with the naked eye.

10        Q.   You say there was only three houses there.  Let's look at 00242I.

11     This is the census for 1981 and 1991.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's not translated, Your Honour, although we have

13     a translation of the headings because it doesn't really need to be.

14        Q.   But we can see there at Gorazde.  And if we go to the next page

15     in the B/C/S, page 2, and actually to page 3?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we collapse the English?

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  That would be good, Your Honour.

18        Q.   We can see on line 13 on the right is where it's numbered as

19     Gojcevici.  And if we turn -- this is the 1981 census, if we turn to the

20     next page, continuing on line 1 we can see that this was an entirely

21     Muslim village of 48 households.  And you did attack it and burn it;

22     correct?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Is it 48 households or 48 people, Mr. Nicholls?

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  I think you're right, Your Honour, people.  Excuse

25     me.

Page 31445

 1        Q.   But that sounds like more than three houses, doesn't it?

 2        A.   Yes, but this is about year 1992, whereas the document you are

 3     showing is about 1981.  I don't know how many people there were at the

 4     time, but I know that since 1981 a dam and a hydropower-plant had been

 5     built flooding a lot of the land so that many people must have moved out.

 6     I don't know how many people there were at the time, as I say, but I know

 7     that for a year before we came to Ustipraca and the time we went there,

 8     there was not a civilian, not one civilian, to be observed there.  We

 9     never saw anyone.  And there were no animals, such as cows, that are

10     indispensable to the life of that population.

11        Q.   If you just look up a bit, sir, you'll see that this is 1991 -

12     look at the top of the page there - not 1981.

13        A.   I heard in my headset that it was 1981 possibly.

14        Q.   No, that was a --

15        A.   I'm not going into numbers of population.  I believe you that

16     this figure is correct, but the moment when we launched that offensive

17     and for a year before that, there was not a single civilian there.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I would tender these four documents

19     we've just gone through.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would appreciate it if we used

25     documents of Bosnia and Herzegovina or the federal state.  This is a

Page 31446

 1     document of the Croatian state, that is the source.  They were making

 2     documents on the population in Bosnia-Herzegovina --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- I maintain that this figure

 5     would be different and it's simply not all right to use another country's

 6     data when we have genuine data.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It all goes to the weight and then it does not

 8     matter at the time of admission.  And then it's for you to use proper

 9     documents if you find it necessary.  We'll admit all of those four

10     documents.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  Document -- I assume that first document is

12     24333 --

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Correct.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  -- and not 24297.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We start from 24297.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, I'm sorry --

17             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, I'm sorry that one.

18             THE REGISTRAR: [Overlapping speakers]...

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  24333.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  24323.

22             JUDGE KWON:  And?

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  08105, 0242I.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Then document 24333 receives number P6046;

25     document 24323 receives number P6047; document 08105 receives number

Page 31447

 1     P6048; and document 242I receives number P6049, Your Honours.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 3        Q.   Now I want to move on quickly and talk about Operation Zvijezda,

 4     or "Star."

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P01645, please.

 6        Q.   This is from the Visegrad Tactical Group command.  It's dated 11

 7     April 1994, in other words, about a week on from the documents we've been

 8     looking at.  It's signed by commander Dragisa Masal.  We can see - I

 9     won't spend the time reading out the distribution list - but it's orders

10     for further action to be taken as part of Operation - I'm sorry I can't

11     pronounce it correctly - Zvijezda 94, or Star 94.  And I want you to look

12     at the bottom paragraph number 7.

13             "I am forwarding you a message from the commander of the

14     Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska, General Mladic, who visited

15     our zone of combat operations on 10 April 1994:  'Keep pushing

16     energetically onwards, pay no attention to what is going on around us.

17     The Turks must disappear from these areas.'"

18             Now, as a corps-level morale officer, you know when that type of

19     sentence from the commander of the Main Staff is included, that is in

20     order to encourage morale and tell the troops what they're fighting for;

21     correct?

22        A.   In that situation I was not assistant for morale.  I was Chief of

23     Staff of the tactical group and also commander of a combat group.  This

24     document was written by Colonel Dragisa Masal, group commander.  As a

25     subordinated commanding officer, I received this document and implemented

Page 31448

 1     everything that related to me, that is, the tasks that I had as commander

 2     of a combat group.  And this language, that we should not pay attention,

 3     that is a reference to NATO air-strikes and to keep dissimulating so that

 4     they would not destroy us.  You are coming closer to the side that is

 5     supported by NATO so by doing that you force them to strike at both if

 6     they want to strike.

 7        Q.   Yes, and the message from General Mladic for this operation is

 8     that the Turks - meaning Muslims - must disappear.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Hey, if it's a translation error, that's one.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think we should stick to the

11     original text.  The Turks, when we say "Turks" or "Ustashas," these words

12     have their own meaning.

13             JUDGE KWON:  That's for you to take up the issue, but

14     Mr. Nicholls was quoting directly from the statement -- the document,

15     "the Turks must disappear from these areas."

16             So what is your question, Mr. Nicholls?

17             MR. NICHOLLS:

18        Q.   That that is the message from General Mladic, that the Turks must

19     disappear from these areas.  And when we see "Turks" in this type of

20     document, it means Muslims; correct?

21        A.   Well, most probably Muslims.  That was the usual, or rather,

22     frequent not usual name used for Muslims.

23        Q.   Now I want to look at another document, 24285 is the

24     65 ter number.  That's part of your records.  If we look at page 2,

25     that's promotion proposal.  And one of the reasons given in order to give

Page 31449

 1     you a promotion is that during Operation Star 94, as the Visegrad

 2     Tactical Group Chief of Staff, you performed the duty of commander of the

 3     combat group which liberated this area.  So my only question is:  You

 4     were promoted for your work or there was a proposal to promote you for

 5     your work in Operation Star 94; correct?

 6        A.   Not only in that operation, but throughout my work from 1992 to

 7     this date in 1994.

 8        Q.   Yes, that's why I said one of the reasons, plural.  So the answer

 9     is yes; correct?

10        A.   I gave you my answer thoroughly, and that's the truth.  I can't

11     answer this question with a yes.

12        Q.   That's fine.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I admit this document or may I tender this

14     document, Your Honour?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24285 receives number P6050,

18     Your Honours.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:

20        Q.   Okay.  Now I want to go back to your testimony in the prior case.

21     This is a different topic.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 24297 back up on the screen.

23     This would be e-court page 103.

24        Q.   I'm going to read out to you from page 4069, lines 13 to 25,

25     where you were asked a question by the Honourable Judge Harhoff in that

Page 31450

 1     case.

 2             "Q. I realise that you have not seen it or expressed any opinion

 3     on it, but you -- I think you said that you had heard about such bombs,"

 4     and we're talking about modified air bombs here, "being used in -- from

 5     the ground; that is to say, that they are being launched with rocket

 6     launchers in a modified way.  That's why we call them modified air bombs.

 7     So you heard about them; is that correct?"

 8             Your answer:

 9             "This description that you gave just now as to what this looks

10     like is something that I first heard during my interview with the

11     investigator; that is to say, on the 3rd of August last year.  They

12     actually told me what this was like.  That was the first time I learned

13     about this, from them, how these bombs were modified and how they were

14     launched.  I personally had never seen this weapon being used in that

15     way, as in land launched."

16             You were then asked about when you first heard of air bombs being

17     launched from the ground in very precise questioning by the Prosecutor

18     Alex Whiting.  Could we go to e-court page 108, which is T 4074, that's

19     the transcript page, lines 3 to 14.

20             "Q. I really want to be precise here.  Did you ever hear about

21     modified air bombs being used by the SRK.

22             "A. I never heard this term 'modified.'  What I heard was that

23     air bombs were being used.  That's what I heard.

24             "Q. And when you heard about air bombs being used, how were they

25     being used?  Were they being launched from the ground, or were they being

Page 31451

 1     dropped by airplanes?

 2             "A. I already said that during the interviews with the

 3     investigators, I heard for the first time that they had been launched

 4     from the ground.  I wasn't familiar with that kind of weapon or the mode

 5     of its use, and I still don't know anything about it.  That's when I

 6     heard for the first time that this bomb was being launched from the

 7     ground."

 8             That's your earlier testimony under oath.  I want to now show you

 9     some documents that relate to that.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  P01782, please.

11        Q.   This is the SRK command 7 April 1995 regular combat report --

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Oh, I'm sorry -- sorry.  That's not the document I

13     want P01309, please.  P01309.  That's correct coming up.  All right.

14        Q.   This is an SRK command preparation for action order Talas 1.  All

15     right.  It's a preparatory order.  Let's look at page 2 of the English,

16     we can -- page 2 of the Serbian as well.  The date of this document again

17     is 21st April, 1995.  Could you look at paragraph 2.

18             "Proceed forthwith to prepare launchers and make sure that four

19     to six aerial bombs can be launched simultaneously against a designated

20     target, the condition being that they must hit the target, which means

21     that provisions have to be made for more bombs so that in the event of a

22     miss the next projectile lands on the target."

23             This document refers to aerial bombs being launched from the

24     ground - correct - the section I just read out?

25        A.   No, I don't understand this.  It's probably from the ground.  It

Page 31452

 1     doesn't say so.  I personally never saw this kind of asset.  This

 2     document was drafted by the operations order in co-operation with the

 3     chief of artillery and so on and so forth.  I never saw this type of

 4     asset, but I must say that an aerial bomb is a permissible asset and it

 5     was used by the JNA.  And it was taken from their depot.  The way it is

 6     launched, how it is launched, I don't know that, that's what I stated

 7     because I had never seen it, but I understand the principle because I am

 8     an officer whose specialty is to be an air officer.  But whether the

 9     launcher's on the ground or on a vehicle, I don't know that because I

10     never observed it being mounted --

11        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

12        A.   -- this was not my narrow specialty.  I would have wished

13     to have --

14        Q.   Let me stop you there.  Did the RSK have the ability to drop

15     aerial bombs from airplanes while you were there?  Was there an operating

16     air force, your specialty?  The answer is no.  Correct?

17        A.   There was a no-fly zone there.  The corps opposite did not have

18     any conditions put in place to use air force --

19        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

20        A.   -- i.e., it did not have military aircraft, military helicopters.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Let's go to the next page in each language, please.

22     All right.  Now, you're named in paragraph 6 as part of this order,

23     correct, so you should have received this order?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can I now go to 24322.  This is an SRK command highly

Page 31453

 1     confidential order firing at rapid intervention forces dated 2nd of

 2     September, 1995, it's type-signed by you, Luka Dragicevic.  It states:

 3             "I hereby order:

 4             "1. Prepare artillery fire for support of the units according to

 5     the plan 'Talas 1,'" which we just looked at, "which was handed to you in

 6     July of this year."

 7             Paragraph 3 :

 8             "Igman and Ilidza infantry brigades will prepare A/B launchers

 9     which will be ready for taking over of military posts according to the

10     plan Talas 1.  Military post 1...," I'll skip a bit, "activities on

11     targets 1 to 15."

12             Further down a little bit you'll see:

13             "Igman and Ilidza infantry brigades will prepare 2 FABs each of

14     250 and 105 kilogramme and load them onto the vehicles of the Igman

15     Infantry Brigade and 3rd Sarajevo Infantry Brigade which will also load

16     from their own reserves four FABs of 250 and 105  ..."

17             Below:

18             "We suggest that the SRK command should deploy the 3rd Sarajevo

19     Infantry Brigade A/B launcher, which is currently positioned in Trnovo

20     for the activities from the direction of Lukavica."

21             All right, this is your document, it's an order to prepare air

22     bombs to be launched from the ground; correct?

23        A.   I have already told you once that I personally never saw that

24     asset, so I don't know whether it was to be launched from the ground or

25     from elsewhere.  Second of all, I did sign this document in the role -- I

Page 31454

 1     suppose that that was in the role of a duty operations officer.  At the

 2     moment when the commander was not there, when he was not at the command

 3     so he couldn't sign himself, that duty operations officer has the right

 4     to sign a document of that kind.  The document was compiled by the organs

 5     of the command, the operative organ, the chief of artillery of the

 6     command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  In other words, they were all

 7     professionals.  It was my task to sign such a document.  They were not

 8     able to do it.  It was only the person who at that moment stood in for

 9     the commander of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.  At that time, it was me

10     acting as the duty operations officer in the centre.  I apologise.  The

11     commander of the IKM.  I was the commander of the forward command post 2,

12     correct.  Now it is correct.  And I had my inner circle of command which

13     also consisted of some people.  There was no difference between us and

14     the SRK.  I was in charge of a smaller part of the corps.  It was 51st

15     [indiscernible] smaller in territorial terms.

16        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

17        A.   At my forward command post I also had the chief of artillery, and

18     I also had the operative officer, the chief of communications, and so on

19     and so forth who were all members of the forward command post and they

20     compiled this document in professional terms and I had the right to sign

21     it.  I am not -- I was not a professional body.  I was not a specialist

22     either for the -- for artillery or communications.  However, I played the

23     role of the commander of the forward command post 2.  That would be my

24     integral answer to your question.

25        Q.   Okay.  We just agreed that the SRK could not shoot, launch,

Page 31455

 1     whatever you want to call it, air bombs from the air because you had no

 2     aircraft.  Where else can they be launched from if not the ground, if

 3     it's not from the air?  You didn't have submarines either.  Where else

 4     could you launch them from if not the ground, if you don't have an air

 5     force?

 6        A.   It's not either/or.  I said what I know.  I did not see how the

 7     launching of an aerial bomb was carried out, how that launcher was

 8     prepared.  I did not see it personally, so I don't know the details,

 9     whether it was from the ground, from a lorry.  I didn't see that and most

10     probably it was not launched from an aircraft.

11        Q.   It wasn't launched from an aircraft.  If it's launched from the

12     back of a truck, isn't that still launching from the ground as opposed to

13     from a plane?

14        A.   It's not from the air.  I suppose that it was from the ground,

15     but it could have been from a platform on the sea or on the river

16     surface, for example.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender that document?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 24322 receives number P6051,

22     Your Honours.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I go to P01202, please.

24        Q.   This document is also about Talas 1.  It's from the next day, 3rd

25     of September, 1995, and it's also from you.  It's urgent.  It's a report

Page 31456

 1     from the brigade command, decision on conclusions and requests.  On page

 2     1 we can say it's good -- you say it's good that these attacks were not

 3     carried out.  But I want to go to page 2 of both and look at part (C).

 4     Again, this is from you.

 5             "Aerial bombs --" (C)(2).

 6             "Aerial bombs and other ammunition kept in the 'Pretis' are to be

 7     urgently distributed to brigades for security reasons and possibility of

 8     prompt use.  Probably it would not be possible to deliver these items

 9     when required."

10             So you here are ordering air bombs being delivered to brigades

11     for use when you have no aircraft.  That means you're delivering --

12     you're ordering that they be delivered for use from being launched from

13     the ground; correct?

14        A.   May I see the first page?  I failed to notice the date when --

15        Q.   Certainly --

16        A.   -- this decision, i.e., that report was issued.

17        Q.   Certainly, it's 3rd September 1995, but you can look at the front

18     page if you want to.

19        A.   No, no, I believe you.  The 3rd.  Very well.  Just a moment,

20     please.  So I was still acting as a commander of the IKM 2 of the

21     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps --

22        Q.   Do you remember my question?

23        A.   This is not the way it was -- yes, I remember.  I remember it

24     very well.  Your statement and your question --

25        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

Page 31457

 1        A.   -- was not good for the following reason.  This supply was not

 2     for a future use.  It could have been if needed; however, at that moment

 3     for three or four days we had been bombarded by NATO.  Pretis had been

 4     completely destroyed, and aerial bombs remained intact by accident.  And

 5     since this was all in one place, this was distributed to brigades because

 6     they could stock them, they could stock them in depots so as to save them

 7     and so as to be distributed evenly.  And that was the purpose of this

 8     order, i.e., of this document that you asked me about.  It doesn't say

 9     anywhere here that they should be used.  It says that if need be they

10     could be used.

11        Q.   Promptly, prompt use?

12        A.   Just a moment.  Just tell me where -- a possibility of rapid use,

13     not prompt use.  It doesn't say "prompt use," it says "rapid."

14        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, I'm putting it to you, sir, you were not

15     truthful when you testified here last time this -- for that Honourable

16     Trial Chamber.  I'll remind you what you said:

17             "I already said during the interview with the investigators I

18     heard for the first time -- during the interview with the investigators I

19     heard for the first time they had been launched from the ground.  I

20     wasn't familiar with that kind of weapons or the mode of its use and I

21     still don't know anything about it.  That's when I heard for the first

22     time that this bomb was being launched from the ground."

23             We've looked at documents signed by you that describe what these

24     bombs are and how they are to be launched.  I suggest to you you tried to

25     hide even your knowledge of air bombs, you tried to hide your knowledge

Page 31458

 1     of how they were used from the Trial Chamber last time you testified

 2     here.  Let me read you one --

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can we make a decision in

 4     the interpretation.  Is it "ground" or is it "soil" or "land"?  So can

 5     the interpreters finally make a decision what term they're going to use?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer --

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:

 8        Q.   You may answer.  This may help you.  Let me show you one more

 9     thing you said.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 2427 --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to answer the question that

12     you put to me --

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  All right.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I need to focus.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Let's hear the answer.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:

17        Q.   Please go ahead.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I see the time.

19             Yes, proceed, Mr. Dragicevic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I was telling the truth

21     then and I'm telling the truth now.  I'm still telling you that I never

22     saw that asset in operation.  I never saw any launchers, and I know so

23     much about bombs that I can talk about them until cows come home, but the

24     point of questioning so far was that that was an aerial bomb that was

25     modified.  I claim that it cannot be modified as a bomb; it can only be

Page 31459

 1     modified in terms of its use, whether it's launched, whether it's

 2     throwing, whether it's -- you cannot modify a bomb which has a 105 kilos

 3     of Trotol, any kind of modification or work on a bomb containing so much

 4     explosive is banned, and I'm repeating, I never saw it being launched so

 5     I can't lie.  It's impossible for me to lie when I say that I did not see

 6     that.  I apologise to you --

 7             THE ACCUSED:  [Previous translation continues]...

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:

 9        Q.   I have one last question for you today.  You are trying to avoid

10     answering the question and you're talking about seeing air bombs.  What

11     you testified to under oath last time you were here was that 2006 in your

12     interview with the OTP was the first time that you heard that this type

13     of bomb could be launched -- was launched from the ground, and that

14     wasn't true; correct?

15        A.   Everything that I ever said has been the truth.  What I'm saying

16     here today is the truth, but whether you understand me or whether you

17     want to understand me is an entirely different matter.  I said then that

18     I never saw an aerial bomb weighing 250 kilos.  I personally was involved

19     in --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Dragicevic --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- working with 50 to 100 kilos

22     bombs, and as far as the principle is concerned -- go ahead.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll adjourn here for today.  But the question was

24     not whether you ever saw the aerial bomb yourself.

25             We'll continue tomorrow.

Page 31460

 1             And, Mr. Dragicevic, I would like to advise you not to discuss

 2     with anybody else about your testimony during

 3     the [overlapping speakers] --

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand.  Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume tomorrow at 9.00.  Yes.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.50 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of

 8                           December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.