1 Tuesday, 18 December 2012
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.06 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone. Yes, good morning,
7 Mr. Harvey.
8 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours. May I
9 introduce Mireille Morsink, who is working for her masters in public
10 administration at the university of Leiden who has been with my team for
11 the last month and will be for a while to come. Thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Very well.
13 WITNESS: ZDRAVKO SALIPUR [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. Salipur.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Gaynor.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
19 Cross-examination by Mr. Gaynor:
20 Q. Mr. Salipur, in your statement at paragraph 8, you say that
21 Crisis Staffs were formed in Serbian municipalities in accordance with a
22 document dated the 26th of April, 1992. Now, it's right, isn't it, that
23 the Crisis Staff were formed in municipalities by the SDS many months
24 before April 1992?
25 A. Well, it depends. Throughout Bosnia-Herzegovina, Crisis Staff
1 were being established, some earlier, others later, depending on how the
2 situation developed in the field. In some places it simply wasn't
3 necessary to have one, depended on the structure of the population, and
4 also if perhaps certain incidents had already occurred. So dates are
5 different in different municipalities.
6 Q. Now, in your statement at paragraph 5 you say that you do not
7 know the document entitled "Instructions for the activity of the Serbian
8 people in extraordinary circumstances (variant A and B)."
9 Now, it's right, isn't it, that that --
10 A. No. I've never heard of this variant A and B. Actually, I
11 hadn't heard of it until I heard about it through the media when this
12 Tribunal started dealing with these matters. Before that I had never
13 heard of this variant, although I'm some kind of participant in all of
14 these events as far as the Serbian Democratic Party is concerned from
15 when it was founded up until the war. Although I was close to sources of
16 information in Sarajevo, I never heard of this variant. I certainly have
17 not heard of it, and I do not know of its existence if it did exist in
18 the first place.
19 Q. Do you accept that you personally participated in the
20 implementation of instructions received from the SDS Main Board in
21 December 1991?
22 A. Yes, I did participate, but at the same time, I was the
23 legitimate representative of the people and citizens, because at the
24 first multi-party elections, I was elected a member of the
25 Municipal Assembly. That was our task, to take care of security as part
1 of overall life and Crisis Staffs were the result of all of that, as was
2 everything else.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Can I call up, please, P5.
4 Q. The document that's on the screen in front of you, Mr. Salipur,
5 states in the top left-hand corner "Serbian Democratic Party,
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina Main Board." It is dated at the bottom the
7 19th of December, 1991. If we turn to the second page, you can see the
8 foot of the document a reference to variant A, and underneath variant A
9 you see two words. Could you read out those two words, please.
10 A. "And co-operation with all local committees in the area of the
11 municipality." Is that what you meant, where it says "First Level"?
12 Q. Yes, the two words "First Level" I want you to keep those in
13 mind. Now, if we turn to the next page of this document we see a list of
14 tasks numbered 1 to 5, and then if we turn to the next page, tasks go on
15 from 6 to 11, and they stop at 11. Do you see that?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. GAYNOR: May I call up, please, P2575.
18 Q. You can see this document is a record of a Crisis Staff meeting
19 held on the premises of the Novo Sarajevo Serbian Democratic Party. The
20 meeting heard and discussed the materials received from the SDS BH
21 Main Board. Underneath that you see two words. Do you see those two
22 words? Under "SDS BiH."
23 A. Yes, I see that. May I explain?
24 Q. Can you read out those two words, please.
25 A. "Material received from the Main Board of the
1 Serb Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina."
2 Q. And the next two words.
3 A. "First Level."
4 Q. That's the exactly the same expression as you saw in the previous
5 document, isn't it?
6 A. Yes. I understand, but in this document there is absolutely no
7 mention of any variant A or variant B. "First level" is one word. As
8 for variant A and B, I don't know what those words mean. I have to
9 correct you. This is a meeting of the Crisis Staff of the
10 Municipal Board, municipal. So that is the lowest-ranking cell in the
11 party, if you can put it that way. We received this from the Main Board
12 of the SDS. We received the complete material, and that is what you
13 previously put to me. You put this to me. I really don't see. After
14 all, if I can remember correctly --
15 THE INTERPRETER: The interpret did not understand the rest of
16 the sentence.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 12 it says that "we did
18 receive," where the witness said, "we did not receive."
19 MR. GAYNOR:
20 Q. Mr. Witness, did you receive material from the Main Board of the
22 A. We received instructions on activity which is a succinct part of
23 the material that you put here, and as for that page and mentioning
24 variant A and B, I mean the first time I heard of this variant A and B
25 was -- well, I know as far as looking at the situation, you know, first
1 level and things like that, and then this second one was envisaged, but
2 then that was materialised through the war, and then there was no need
3 for the first one anyway.
4 Q. Now, in this document you will see there are items numbered 1, 2,
5 3, there is no item 4 or 5, and then there are items 6, 7, 8, 9, and 11.
6 Do you see that?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Now, your name in full appears under item 11, and the name
9 Salipur appears under item 6. So you were responsible for implementing
10 items 6 and 11, weren't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, you worked with Radomir Neskovic, didn't you?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Neskovic is --
15 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Gaynor,
16 but we need to clarify this a bit more precisely.
17 Mr. Salipur, this is your answer to the question of Mr. Gaynor
18 asking about this document which is in front of you now. I read out the
19 answer as translated:
20 "This is a meeting of the Crisis Staff of the Municipal Board,
21 municipal. So that's the lowest-ranking cell in the party, if you can
22 put that way. We received this from the Main Board of the SDS. We
23 received the complete material, and that is what you previously put to
25 Then -- and that was your answer. Mr. Karadzic stated that the
1 sentence "we received the complete material" should be translated as "we
2 didn't receive the complete material." But before that when you are
3 saying about the meeting of the lowest-ranking cell, you did say that you
4 received this from the Main Board of the SDS.
5 So what I understand from your further answer to Mr. Gaynor, you
6 received some -- some material in a succinct form from the Main Board,
7 but you didn't receive the complete set of document. Is that what you're
8 going -- what you said?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, precisely. We received
10 extracts from that document. If you look at all of this, this is some
11 kind of instruction as to how to act in some kind of situation that crops
13 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. You received the extracts from that
14 document. Did you see those extracts yourself?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I did not. The conduct and
16 work in the party was such that all material that arrived, when meetings
17 would be held, the person chairing the meeting would read out a document,
18 and then there would be a debate, discussion, and certain conclusions
19 would be reached. Other members absolutely do not look at the document,
20 only the official that works for the Municipal Board.
21 JUDGE KWON: Then how did you know that only the extracts had
22 been received at the time instead of the whole set of documents?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because the person who was chairing
24 the meeting tells us and says, We received instructions on further
25 activity in a deteriorated critical situation, and does not communicate
1 the entire document. He communicates to us what he received.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Back to you, Mr. Gaynor.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
4 Q. Witness, you can see this is dated the 23rd of December, 1991,
5 which is four days after the variant A and B document.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, Radomir Neskovic gave evidence before this Trial Chamber,
8 the reference is T14353. He told this Trial Chamber:
9 "This document is not a forgery. It is a document of the
10 Crisis Staff of Novo Sarajevo. Based on the contents, it is variant A.
11 So variant A is being applied here."
12 Do you accept that this document is, in fact, implementing
13 variant A of the variant A and B instructions even if you personally had
14 not seen a copy of the variant A and B instructions?
15 A. Number one, Mr. Radomir Neskovic at the time of all of this did
16 not participate personally as I did, and he certainly could not have
17 determined which came -- what came as a result of what, and his name
18 would be here among the other names. It would be on the other documents,
19 I mean of members of the Municipal Board and thing like that, and I don't
20 know how come he judged it that way. I'm saying again that this is the
21 first level of conduct on the basis of instructions. We received
22 instructions on how we should behave in the situation that prevailed at
23 that time. The situation was already rather chaotic. Different things
24 were happening, incidents. There were all sorts of songs that were being
25 sung that the Croatian borders on the Drina. There were also the green
1 flags, and we had to act in some way so that there would not be greater
2 unrest. We had to see how we should act. There is nothing bad about
3 these duties of ours. There are no intentions or preparations for war.
4 Q. Now, you accept that the name Radomir Neskovic does appear on
5 this document under item 8?
6 A. Well, now I do notice his name, but now whether this has to do
7 with the one that I have in mind, I'm not sure. I know that later after
8 the war broke out he took over the Crisis Staff of the municipality, and
9 he was appointed by the Government of Republika Srpska. That I do know.
10 As for this pre-war period, I don't know that he participated.
11 MR. GAYNOR: Can I call up, please, 65 ter 01477.
12 Q. As you can see, this is a record of a Crisis Staff meeting held
13 on the 25th of December, 1991, two days after the previous Crisis Staff
14 meeting. This document lists a series of tasks which are assigned.
15 Under item 3 we can see that a task has been assigned to you. Do you see
17 A. Number 3? I see that. I don't know what you're interested in.
18 What you'd want me to explain about this task that I was entrusted with,
19 what it had to do with or what I was supposed to do in relation to this
21 Q. You accepted the Crisis Staff was issuing instructions to various
22 members on the 25th of December, 1991?
23 A. Yes. Number 1, the Crisis Staff consists of ten members of the
24 secretariat of the Municipal Board, and the others are from the
25 Serbian Democratic Party, and they worked as appointed officials in the
1 municipality; that is to say the Crisis Staff had a mixed composition,
2 and it cannot be considered to be an independent body. It could not have
3 done anything independently without the Municipal Board knowing about
4 this and the officials who worked in the municipality.
5 Q. And the Crisis Staff, when you say it was not an independent
6 body, it was receiving instructions from above, wasn't it?
7 A. Well, yes. That's why I said that the composition was mixed,
8 that it wasn't some kind of separate institution or separate
10 Q. Now, you said at the beginning of your evidence the Crisis Staffs
11 had been formed pursuant to a document from April 1992. Do you accept on
12 the basis of this document and the previous document we saw that the
13 Crisis Staff was in fact formed at least as early as December 1991?
14 THE ACCUSED: I think it's misleading.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you take up the issue in your
17 re-examination. The witness has already answered.
18 Shall we move on?
19 MR. GAYNOR: Yes. Thank you.
20 Q. I'd just like to clarify. Witness, when you said, "Yes," you
21 were saying yes to my question; is that correct?
22 A. Well, the question was whether the Crisis Staff had been
23 established already towards the end -- the end -- the end of 1991, and we
24 have to Crisis Staff that appears in some documents in the beginning of
25 the war. Those two -- I mean the composition of persons in these two
1 Crisis Staffs are quite different and the tasks are quite different,
2 because the war had broken out and many members moved away. They went in
3 different directions. So if we can refer to this as continuity of work,
4 it did exist up to a point but with different people in a different
5 situation, because the war had already started, whereas this was the
6 pre-war situation. I can tell you that even if we had not received any
7 instructions from the Main Staff, we would have done all of these same
8 things at the Municipal Board. We would have carried out all these
9 tasks, because they were not aimed against anyone, not aimed against
10 other peoples, just to ensure greater safety and security, more order,
11 sufficient food supplies if a war breaks out for persons who had not had
12 sufficient care, and also in individual homes and families so that if a
13 war were to break out there wouldn't be famine, a breakdown law and
14 order. Then also there should be lists of the disabled and the sickly so
15 that they could be assisted. No one knew what kind of war would start
16 and when.
17 MR. GAYNOR: Mr. President, I would like to tender 65 ter 01477.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We will receive it.
19 JUDGE BAIRD: But, Mr. Gaynor, Dr. Karadzic, I think that we
20 should have this matter clarified before we go further. Now, the
21 question you asked, Mr. Gaynor, some time ago was this:
22 "Do you accept that on the basis of this document and previous
23 documents that the Crisis Staff was, in fact, formed as early as
24 December 1991?"
25 Now, at that point, Mr. Karadzic, you had objected to the
1 question on the ground that it was misleading. Am I right?
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellency.
3 JUDGE BAIRD: Now, was this matter addressed at all, Mr. Gaynor?
4 Do you recollect that?
5 MR. GAYNOR: Yes, I asked the witness to clarify if he had
6 answered yes to my question.
7 JUDGE BAIRD: And he gave this answer, this long answer.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
9 JUDGE BAIRD: Is this an answer to the question?
10 MR. GAYNOR: Well, I can show him one final document and then I
11 can return to the point.
12 JUDGE BAIRD: Thank you very much, indeed. Yes, I'd appreciate
14 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you. Could we call up, please, P2583.
15 JUDGE KWON: Before doing that, shall we give the number for this
17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, Your Honour. Document 1477 receives
18 number P6055, Your Honours.
19 THE ACCUSED: Excellencies, may I in English explain why it is
20 misleading so that --
21 JUDGE KWON: Shall we continue?
22 JUDGE BAIRD: Let us proceed, Mr. Gaynor, for the time being,
23 shall we?
24 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Now, on the document -- on the screen in front of you,
1 Mr. Witness, you see a record of the minutes of the Crisis Staff staff
2 meeting held in Lukavica community on the 29th of January, 1992, among
3 those attending is Radomir Neskovic. Under item 4 it states:
4 "Zdravko Salipur has fully completed the task relating to the
5 municipal vehicles."
6 Do you see that, Mr. Witness?
7 A. I do. I do, and I can briefly explain something about this task
8 that says that I in a very brief period of time was the only one to carry
9 out my task. My task at the time had to do with the following: There
10 was a shortage of fuel for vehicles at the time, and the municipality and
11 the town Assembly issued special coupons so you couldn't buy fuel with
12 money. Since I worked in the municipality in order to provide fuel,
13 obtain fuel and coupons for vehicles, fuel that came from Novo Sarajevo,
14 and I knew how we could work as an institution, as a political party, in
15 accordance with the law, and we could also obtain some of those coupons
16 in accordance with the law and we could use them for fuel. So this was
17 my task. I carried it out expeditiously. There were no ill intentions
18 when this was done. Mr. Radomir Neskovic had some duties in the
19 municipality. He was the director for the housing fund that the
20 municipality has, and in relation to that, he was probably involved in
21 this issue in case special accommodation was required.
22 Q. Now, under item 1 it says that stations are to be taken over by
23 Milenko Jovanovic and Zdravko Salipur on behalf of the Crisis Staff. Can
24 you tell us what that is a reference to?
25 A. At the time, there were no mobile phones. As the
1 Municipal Board, we obtained a number of small radio -- hand-held radio
2 devices, ones that radio ham operators use so that individual members
3 could at any point in time, if they weren't somewhere where there was a
4 land-line, maintain contact. They were distributed to some members of
5 the Municipal Boards, and then we obtained information according to which
6 they just call each other, tell jokes to each other, speak to each other
7 by using these devices, so we decided to take them back from them, and
8 later we were to see to whom we might distribute these devices.
9 Q. Now, I have shown you this morning a record of a Crisis Staff
10 meeting held on the premises of the Novo Sarajevo SDS to discuss
11 materials received from the SDS Main Board. That meeting was on the
12 23rd of December, 1991. I showed you another document of a Crisis Staff
13 meeting held on the 25th of December, 1991. I showed you a third
14 document which are the minutes of the Crisis Staff meeting held on the
15 29th of January, 1991. On the basis of those documents, you must accept
16 that the SDS had formed a Crisis Staff in your municipality at least as
17 early as December 1991.
18 A. Well, if you noticed, in one of the documents there are some
19 members from the staff who assigned tasks to co-ordinate activities
20 between the Crisis Staff of the SDS and the HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
21 So in other political parties there were already Crisis Staffs in
22 existence. They had been established before we established ours. We
23 named the coordinators in documents so that they could be interlocutors.
24 This was done so that we could calm down the situation as much as
25 possible to defuse tension, if you will.
1 Q. One final question. You must accept, yes or no, that the SDS did
2 establish the Crisis Staff in Novo Sarajevo municipality at least as
3 early as December 1991? Yes or no?
4 A. Well, yes, but in the context that I've mentioned in my answers,
5 all of my answers, have a look at one of the earlier documents where it
6 says that we have a coordinator for contact with other Crisis Staffs.
7 Q. In your statement at paragraph 5, you say that Radovan Karadzic,
8 President of the SDS, attended the pre-war sessions of your SDS Municipal
9 Board meetings. About how many did he attend?
10 A. Since the Novo Sarajevo municipality is essential one in the town
11 of Sarajevo and the town consisted of eight municipalities, apart from
12 the Municipal Board there was a working group called the town board,
13 because the authorities in Sarajevo had a town Assembly and
14 Municipal Assembly, so no deputies in the Municipal Assemblies and the
15 town Assemblies. The headquarters of the town board of the
16 Serbian Democratic Party was in Novo Sarajevo and that was also the case
17 for the Municipal Board. President Karadzic attended meetings of the
18 town board more frequently, because you had deputies, representatives
19 from all the town, from all the eight municipalities, one could say, and
20 sometimes he would also attend our meetings of the Municipal Board.
21 Unfortunately, we often had internal tensions, and he had to come to calm
22 us down so we could solve our problems, and so on and so forth. So I
23 don't know how many times that was, in fact, but he had a lot of duties
24 to perform, but at least ten times from the elections, from the time the
25 elects were held, up until the time when the war broke out.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said "reconcile," not
2 "calm down." And the witness said that there was co-operation with the
3 Crisis Staffs of the HDZ and the SDA, and SDA isn't there. He said "to
4 reconcile us."
5 MR. GAYNOR:
6 Q. Now, at paragraph 6, you note that when the war broke out,
7 Dr. Karadzic left Sarajevo for Pale. Do you accept that Dr. Karadzic
8 remained in close contact with members of the Municipal Board, the
9 SDS Municipal Board, of Novo Sarajevo while he was in Pale and after he
10 had moved to Pale?
11 A. Well, it seems -- he didn't go there on his own. All our
12 political leadership, all our party leadership from Sarajevo went there.
13 Pale isn't very far from Novo Sarajevo municipality which had its own
14 territory. Life had to go on. It was necessary to co-operate, to
15 establish the authorities of government. This was all done. And to do
16 that, naturally he had to have contact with our municipality and people
17 who acted as leaders in the municipality.
18 During the first month when the war broke out, as soon as the
19 government had been formed in the territory of Republika Srpska, the
20 party's work was frozen for one year. That was the decision, because one
21 wanted to have unity prevail amongst the people, and one wanted to
22 prepare a better defence within the war.
23 Q. Do you know Rajko Bajic, Dragan Vucetic and Slavko Aleksic?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Were they all members of the SDS Municipal Board of
1 Novo Sarajevo?
2 A. Aleksic, yes. And Rajko Bajic was a prominent member of the
3 party, but I don't think he was a member of the Municipal Board. I'm not
4 certain about that. And Dragan Vucetic, yes, he was a member of the
5 Municipal Board and he worked in Novo Sarajevo municipality. He was an
6 urban inspector. That was the position he held, and he had a permanent
7 job there.
8 Q. And do you accept that you remained in contact with other members
9 of the Municipal Board of Sarajevo and with the leadership in Pale?
10 A. Do you have me in mind or the Municipal Board as a whole?
11 Q. The Municipal Board as a whole.
12 A. Sir, I lived at the other end of town in relation to the
13 territory of the Serbian municipality of Novo Sarajevo, or it was that
14 municipality when the war broke out, and to be more specific in the
15 settlement of Pofalica. It was war. I had contact in relation to the
16 party, and so on and so forth, up until the beginning of the war, and
17 from then onwards I wasn't free to move around. My neighbourhood was
18 mainly inhabited by Serbs. We organised ourselves, organised guards as
19 well so as to avoid unpleasant scenes. Unfortunately, this didn't last
20 for long. On the 16th of May, 1992, the Muslim forces attacked our
21 settlement, our neighbourhood, or, rather, one of the enclaves as one
22 might call it, and on that occasion I was seriously wounded. I went away
23 for treatment. I returned from treatment in Belgrade late in the autumn
24 of 1992. So as for the other events from the 4th of April up until
25 October, did I not participate in those events. All I know is what I
1 know through rumours, but I wasn't a direct participant in the events,
2 and I know nothing about them.
3 MR. GAYNOR: Can I call up please 65 ter 01463.
4 Q. This is a document dated the 8th of August, 1992. I accept that
5 you were in Belgrade at that time.
6 Now, in this document which is signed by Dr. Radovan Karadzic,
7 you can read it for yourself, sir, but I think we can see that
8 Dr. Karadzic is summoning Rajko Bajic, Dragan Vucetic and Slavko Aleksic
9 to report to him in person.
10 A. The date is the 8th of August, 912. It doesn't say 1992. It
11 says 912 here, but the translation in English says "Sarajevo, the
12 8th of August, 1992."
13 Q. Yes, very well observed, Mr. Salipur. I think we can accept
14 that's a typographical error and it should read 8th of the 8th, 1992.
15 Now, do you -- do you agree that President Karadzic --
16 A. I don't understand. It says Sarajevo, the 8th of August, 1992.
17 President Karadzic in August 1992 wasn't in Sarajevo. He was in Pale.
18 It should say Pale and then you should have the date. I don't know. I
19 never heard that they had authority of any kind. See how the
20 municipality was working. As far as I know, Milenko Jovanovic in that
21 part of Sarajevo was seriously wounded in both legs in Vraca, and he
22 spent more time being treated than I did, almost a year. So this is
23 completely illogical to me.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Has the possibility of the year
25 being 1991 been considered? There should be a 2 under the number,
1 because we put a dot after numbers.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That would sooner be like that,
3 because I know that they received something from you in 1991.
4 MR. GAYNOR:
5 Q. In any event, setting the date of this document to one side for a
6 moment, you accept that Dr. Karadzic was in personal contact with
7 Slavko Aleksic and the two other men named in this document?
8 A. In your earlier question as to whether I knew Bajic Rajko,
9 Slavko Aleksic, I said yes, Aleksic was a member of the Municipal Board.
10 Vucetic, Dragan was a member of the Municipal Board and Bajic, Rajko was
11 a prominent member of the party. I am not sure. I don't think he was in
12 the Municipal Board. As I had mentioned earlier on I know that we had
13 some tension, some disagreements, and so on, about certain matters, and
14 in 1991 on one occasion President Karadzic authorised them to carry out
15 an inventory of the equipment because there was a dispute, an internal
16 dispute. It was said that someone had spent money in an inappropriate
17 manner, something like that, and Rajko Bajic is an economist, I think.
18 Mr. Jovanovic, he worked in the Ministry of the Interior, didn't he?
19 They wanted to deal with the matter. I think the document might have to
20 do with this and I believe that it was in 1991. It says an inventory of
21 all the equipment or materiel.
22 Q. You told us that Aleksic was a member of the Municipal Board.
23 Aleksic was also a Vojvoda who led volunteer units of the Serbian Chetnik
24 detachment, wasn't he?
25 A. When I returned from my treatment I lived in Grbavica, a hundred
1 metres from the demarcation line which was being secured by a company
2 under the command of Slavko Aleksic. He was a regular member of the
3 Army of Republika Srpska in terms of establishment. He had a bit of a
4 beard and was called a Vojvoda. Well, that's a totally different matter.
5 But he wasn't a volunteer of any kind. You will find his name in the
6 documents of the Municipal Board when the party was established, from the
7 time the party was established up until the time the war broke out and
8 his pre-war address was at the location where the demarcation line was,
9 where he was the company commander in Gornji Kovacici. So he wasn't a
10 volunteer of any kind. He was a local inhabitant. He was born from
11 Bileca. But he left Bileca and came to Sarajevo at least ten years prior
12 to the war.
13 Q. Thank you. I'm going to have to move on because I'm under some
14 time pressure.
15 MR. GAYNOR: Could I tender the document on the screen, please.
16 JUDGE KWON: Any objection, Mr. Karadzic?
17 THE ACCUSED: No, no.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive it.
19 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1463 receives P6056, Your Honours.
20 MR. GAYNOR: Could I call up, please, P5035.
21 Q. Document which is come up is dated the 13th of May, 1993. It's
22 an order of the Serbian Chetnik Movement. And we can see under item 1 of
23 this document that Slavko Aleksic is named, and there is a reference to
24 his activity as commander of the Novo Sarajevo Chetnik Detachment. Do
25 you see that?
1 A. Yes.
2 MR. GAYNOR: Could I also call up, please, 65 ter number 23871.
3 Q. The next document is a receipt dated the 5th of January, 1994 -
4 you will see it in a moment - signed by Vojvoda Slavko Aleksic,
5 confirming receipt of documents from RS MUP Ilidza SJB. Do you see that,
6 Mr. Witness?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you accept, therefore, that Aleksic was a commander of the
9 Novo Sarajevo Chetnik Detachment and received weapons from the
10 Bosnian Serb police force?
11 A. Let me repeat what I said. I'm claiming with full responsibility
12 that in spite of everything that you have known, in spite of all these
13 documents that you have shown, the unit under the command of
14 Slavko Aleksic in the war was a company that was part -- I'm not sure
15 whether it was the 1st or 2nd Battalion. For a time it was the Sarajevo
16 and later the Romanija Motorised Brigade. Also in this document where it
17 says "Received," Pajic, Veljko. He was also a member of the
18 Army of Republika Srpska and a company commander at a demarcation line
19 which continued from the zone which was under the control of
20 Slavko Aleksic. And let me go back to what I said. From the time the
21 party was established up until the war broke out, he was a member of the
22 Municipal Board of the SDS. Well, Chetnik detachment and so on and so
23 forth, that has nothing to do with it. You can see under whose command
24 he operated.
25 MR. GAYNOR: I'd like to tender that document, Mr. President.
1 JUDGE KWON: Could you ask the witness to read out the stamp?
2 Can we zoom in the stamp we can see at the bottom of the document.
3 MR. GAYNOR:
4 Q. Are you able to read any of those stamps, Mr. Witness?
5 JUDGE KWON: The stamps which we see at the bottom of the
6 document. Can you -- yes. English translation says -- it reads
7 "Vojvoda Slavko Aleksic." Do you agree?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I agree with the translation. I
9 can see these letters, but it's not clear to me that a stamp could only
10 have the name of a -- of a man. What is he? What's his position? Which
11 organ does he belong to? It's the first time in my 65 years that I've
12 seen a stamp with just a first and last name and nothing else. Have a
13 look above. "Goods received by. Goods issued by." Slavko Aleksic's
14 name doesn't appear there.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We'll receive this.
16 THE REGISTRAR: Document 23871 receives number P6057,
17 Your Honours.
18 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you very much.
19 Q. Now, in your evidence yesterday -- I'm moving to a separate
20 topic, Mr. Witness. This concerns the Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital.
21 In your evidence yesterday you said at page 31623:
22 "All the media, all the propaganda that I heard stated that at
23 the beginning of the war we shelled the maternity war and destroyed it."
24 And you went on to confirm that you were talking about the
25 maternity ward at Zehra Muidovic hospital. Then you were asked by Dr.
1 Karadzic, "Did we destroy that maternity ward?" And you answered, "No,
2 it wasn't destroyed."
3 Now, do you accept that the Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital was
4 not destroyed at the time that your son became a father but that it was
5 later shelled and destroyed?
6 A. First of all, it wasn't my son who became a father. I became a
7 father. I had a son. That is the first correction. My son was born on
8 the 20th of April in that maternity ward. My wife used to work in the
9 maternity ward for 14 years before the war. Until that day, not a single
10 pane of glass was shattered on the building, let alone that the building
11 was shelled. People worked there safely. I took my wife there to
12 deliver and picked her up three days later. Due to security reasons,
13 because the maternity ward was close to the separation line during the
14 war, it was transferred to another hospital, and in the maternity ward
15 UNPROFOR and other international forces were billeted. Was it the SFOR?
16 I don't know. They kept changing their name. So it wasn't shelled, and
17 especially not while they were there and not before either. Where would
18 they have been billeted if it had been destroyed? That's the real
20 Q. I want to focus on the period after you had been transferred to
21 Belgrade for medical treatment, and I want to put it to you that while
22 you were away from Sarajevo, the shell -- the maternity hospital was
23 shelled and in fact was destroyed.
24 MR. GAYNOR: Could we call up, please, 65 ter 24365.
25 Q. This is a story of the Associated Press. Now, Mr. Witness, it's
1 only available in the English language so I'll tell you what it is. The
2 title is "In Sarajevo, the hospital is a dangerous place." It's dated
3 the 16th of August, 1992, and in the fourth paragraph it says and I
5 "Already the Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital located near the
6 front line of fighting between Serbian and Bosnian forces has been
7 destroyed. During the fighting, three babies - two in
8 incubators - died."
9 Now, do you accept that by 16th of August, 1992, the
10 Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital had been destroyed?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is asked to speculate
12 because the witness stated he wasn't there at the time.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wasn't there at the time, but I
14 think this is mere propaganda.
15 MR. GAYNOR:
16 Q. So you're suggesting that the Associated Press is acting as a
17 propaganda organ for the Bosnian government. Is that your position?
18 Mr. Witness, you can answer the question.
19 A. You see, I didn't quite understand, because you were speaking in
20 a low key, but there were two babies, some in incubators and other people
21 who were hurt. How come they were hurt whereas none of the staff taking
22 care of the babies were wounded? I guess they didn't flee leaving the
23 babies behind. This is a propaganda report, nothing more. I'm simply
24 using my logic. And I'm not saying this because I was present.
25 MR. GAYNOR: I'd now like to move to a video. There are four
1 extracts, and they'll run for a total of about two minutes and 20
2 seconds. Before we play that I'd like to tender the Associated Press
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Gaynor, the Chamber is of the view that given
6 the fact that the relevant part of the document has been read out and
7 reflected in full in the transcript, it's not necessary to receive it.
8 MR. GAYNOR: Very well. Thank you, Mr. President. The video is
9 taken from radio television Bosnia and Herzegovina. These are four
10 extracts, so for the sake of the record, I'll read them out as we play
11 them. The first is from 3 minutes and 41 seconds to 4 minutes and
12 25 seconds.
13 [Video-clip played]
14 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We are reading out the
15 transcript received from the Prosecution:
16 "Srecko Simic: We survived a very difficult night - the night
17 for which I still cannot believe could happen in a civilised world. The
18 horrors that our pregnant women, our child-bearing women, our mothers,
19 our newly-born babies, our ... the female and male patients of our
21 MR. GAYNOR: The second extract is from 5 minutes and 6 seconds
22 to 5 minutes and 26 seconds.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] The Sarajevo maternity ward,
25 Zehra Muidovic today."
1 MR. GAYNOR: The third extract is 6 minutes and 28 seconds to
2 7 minutes and 6 seconds.
3 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unknown man 2: There are some
4 over here where the breast-feeding women are. These are the babies from
5 the pediatrics."
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we get a time reference?
7 [Video-clip played]
8 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unknown man 1: Take footage of
9 this over here."
10 MR. GAYNOR: The time reference is -- we believe this is from the
11 27th of May, 1992, for shelling on the night of the 26th of May, 1992.
12 Third extract is from -- sorry, excuse me. The fourth extract is from
13 7 minutes and 50 seconds to 8 minutes and 28 seconds.
14 [Video-clip played]
15 THE INTERPRETER: "[Voiceover] Unknown man 2: It's a lucky thing
16 that it did not start burning.
17 "Unknown man 3: It did start burning, but it was extinguished.
18 "Unknown man 3: Here, this part over here. Take a footage of
19 this chaos. You see this here which was burnt? You can take footage
20 from here."
21 MR. GAYNOR:
22 Q. Now, Mr. Witness, I put it to you that during the period you were
23 receiving hospital treatment in Belgrade the Zehra Muidovic maternity
24 hospital was in fact shelled, and you are not in a position to exclude
25 the possibility that the VRS shelled the Zehra Muidovic maternity
2 A. My statement I depicted the true events. As for the propaganda
3 that the maternity ward was shelled at the very beginning of the war and
4 that my son was born on the 20th of April -- well, for the first period
5 of the war, the maternity ward operated normally. I was wounded on the
6 16th of May, 1992, and transferred to Belgrade for treatment where I
7 spent five months up. Until the 16th of May, I claim that there was no
8 shelling. I was following the events in Sarajevo. I'm not certain about
9 the period later. It is possible that it was destroyed when they moved
10 out because of the immediate danger. I know this person who gave the
11 statement and the footage, Professor Simic.
12 Mr. Prosecutor, why don't you find out where Mr. Simic is now and
13 when he left Sarajevo? Did he provide this statement under coercion? I
14 have other information, because I know that man well. I have known him
15 for ten years. It wasn't easy for him to be in Sarajevo.
16 Q. Now, from your evidence two things arise. First of all, you
17 cannot exclude the possibility that the VRS shelled this hospital after
18 the 16th of May, 1992, can you?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. The second thing is --
21 A. But I have my doubts, which I have expressed.
22 Q. And the second thing is on the basis of the footage you've seen,
23 you cannot exclude the possibility that the VRS shelled the
24 Zehra Muidovic maternity hospital while there were patients in that
25 hospital, including newborn babies?
1 A. In any case, I exclude that possibility. In my view, the only
2 possibility is that it was shelled perhaps the buildings of the maternity
3 ward were shelled. When they left they went to the Kosevo Hospital. In
4 my statement I said it was close to the separation line where it was
5 dangerous in any case. It is possible that after that the building was
6 used, and I had said in a previous statement that it was at an elevation.
7 It was a vantage point. And perhaps when it was abandoned it was used by
8 the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and perhaps that is why there were shells
9 flying overhead occasionally hitting the building itself. That would be
10 my final say on this topic.
11 MR. GAYNOR: I have no further questions. I'd like to tender the
12 four extracts, Mr. President.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes. On what basis?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] First of all, your Excellencies,
16 this witness was not there at the time and cannot confirm anything.
17 Second of all, we do not have a clear time reference. We see
18 that this was edited material created on different days. This is
19 definitely propaganda material put together by the Sarajevo Television.
20 Finally, we heard Dr. Pejic testify who said that the same
21 person, Dr. Simic, handed over the hospital quite early on to the
22 authorities and that they went to Kosevo.
23 JUDGE KWON: By the way, can I have the 65 ter number again,
24 Mr. Gaynor?
25 MR. GAYNOR: Yes.
1 JUDGE KWON: For this video.
2 MR. GAYNOR: The 65 ter number is 40171A. I should say that the
3 video is available as V000-0351 and we could play far more extracts from
4 this video if necessary. We can certainly make it available to the
5 Trial Chamber.
6 JUDGE KWON: You agree this is an edited version of Sarajevo --
7 from Sarajevo Television?
8 MR. GAYNOR: We agree it was broadcast on Radio Television
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, I believe. Now the footage would have been edited
10 prior to being broadcast, yes.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 [Trial Chamber confers]
13 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will give its ruling after the break.
14 MR. GAYNOR: Thank you, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, your Excellencies, a few
18 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
19 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Salipur, at the time when the Serb
20 municipality of Novo Sarajevo was constituted where were you? When was
21 it constituted, in April, on the 10th or the 12th, something like that?
22 A. At the Assembly session when people were elected, that was at the
23 beginning of the war. Is that the one you have in mind?
24 Q. Yes.
25 A. At that moment in time, whoever was there in terms of deputies
1 and committee members -- well, people were trying to set up civilian
2 authorities as quickly as possible, so that session was held in the
3 Lukavica municipal -- local commune. Dr. Prijic was appointed
4 Assembly speaker, and Mr. Radan was President of the Executive Board. I
5 wasn't present, but later on in my political work I came across that --
6 those documents.
7 Q. Thank you. Do you know, then, whether the municipality
8 established a Crisis Staff as a state organ as opposed to it being a
9 party organ?
10 A. I can't say anything precisely. The Crisis Staff -- well,
11 Neskovic was in charge of it. It's not clear to me. It didn't have the
12 role of the Crisis Staff as we discussed it. It was completely -- a
13 completely new thing.
14 Q. Okay. We won't pursue that since you were not there. It was
15 suggested to you that the Crisis Staff received instructions from above.
16 Did the party Crisis Staff receive instructions from the Main Board or
17 from its Municipal Board?
18 A. From its Municipal Board.
19 Q. Thank you. Is it correct that -- well, when did the SDA and HDZ
20 establish their Crisis Staff compared to the SDS?
21 A. I can't say precisely, but definitely before the SDS Crisis Staff
22 was established. That is why we tasked our people on the Crisis Staff,
23 two people in particular, to co-ordinate work and communicate with the
24 Crisis Staffs of the other two parties. It is in the minutes of the
25 Crisis Staff meeting. People are known, those who were tasked with that.
1 So they must have established their staffs before.
2 Q. Thank you. During that period before the outbreak of the war,
3 were you involved in this or were you doing anything covertly that would
4 be hidden from the other parties and the public?
5 A. I think everything we did was undertaking obligations and it was
6 no secret. It wasn't possible to do anything in secret. All of the
7 organs were still mixed in terms of composition. If the head of a
8 department was of one ethnicity and his deputy of another, well, how
9 could it be secret then? That's as far as the municipal authorities go.
10 As for party organs, everyone was cautious trying to gather as much
11 information on the other side as possible. It was impossible to keep
12 anything hidden or to act covertly.
13 Q. Thank you. When the war broke out, well you were not there from
14 the start, but when you arrived in the fall of 1992, what was the
15 situation like in terms of telephone communication in Sarajevo between
16 Pale and Novo Sarajevo and in general? How did the telephone network
18 A. Well, the grid was not in the best of condition in terms of the
19 town of Sarajevo which was controlled by Muslim forces. There were no
20 telephone lines that could be used to communicate with Pale, only a few,
21 but it was very difficult, because the telephone network was established
22 in a different way before the war. It went through the main city
23 switchboard and then to Pale, and later on there were only a few lines
24 left going to Pale and they were constantly overcrowded.
25 Q. Thank you. Where was the main town switchboard in Sarajevo?
1 A. In Novo Sarajevo at Dolac Malta across the street from the
2 municipal building of Novo Sarajevo before the war and close to the
3 Catholic church, if you remember.
4 Q. Who controlled that area when the war broke out?
5 A. From day one to the last one, it was controlled by the
6 Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina.
7 Q. Thank you. Did they leave your telephone lines at your disposal?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Thank you. You were shown my decision to carry out an inventory
10 or create an inventory list of party property, and it was suggested that
11 I was in indirect contact with Slavko Aleksic. In principle, was it
12 necessary to be in contact with each and every person if a decision like
13 that was to be issued to the Municipal Board?
14 A. Mr. President, before that decision you attended a meeting of
15 ours. I believe I spoke at that meeting, asking you to reconcile our
16 differences within the Municipal Board. There were mutual accusations at
17 the time. After the meeting, you appointed three of them as members of
18 the Municipal Board to make an inventory list so that all doubts would be
19 removed that the people had. Money was involved, including membership
20 fees of party members, voluntary contributions. It was about money for
21 the most part and that's where people begin to argue the easiest.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salipur. I ask this reluctantly, but I wanted to
23 ask you about your opinion or your knowledge of me as a person and a
24 party and State leader.
25 A. It is difficult for me to explain. It would take a long time.
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. While it may be relevant, how does
2 it arise from the cross-examination, Mr. Karadzic?
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellency, it was suggested
4 that I was in personal communication, that I issued instructions, that I
5 meddled with the work of the Municipal Board and that nothing could go
6 ahead without my knowledge. It was all suggested by my learned friend
7 Mr. Gaynor.
8 JUDGE KWON: But your question was formulated in a more general
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll narrow it down.
11 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Mr. Salipur, according to your knowledge, what was the nature of
14 my activities vis-a-vis your municipality, the party, and the period
15 before and during the war?
16 A. In my statement, in the paragraph I mentioned this: When you
17 came to visit and when we could see what was happening in the area of the
18 former Yugoslavia, you were very optimistic that there would be no war in
19 Bosnia-Herzegovina, especially not in Sarajevo. You encouraged us and
20 you enjoyed a lot of respect, and whenever you came to attend a meeting
21 or were there informally, we were always very happy to have you. You
22 never seemed abrupt, wilful, or too critical or too stern. If you did
23 criticise it was always with the aim of improving the situation. You
24 were always telling us that things could be done better. You were a
25 proponent of people not having several positions. You were against
1 double hatting. You kept saying that people should not be in the board
2 and in party, and I liked that in particular. I would have a lot to say
3 about that. I could go on for days.
4 Q. Thank you, Mr. Salipur. I have no further questions of you.
5 [Trial Chamber confers]
6 JUDGE KWON: Salipur, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of
7 the Chamber, I thank you for coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are
8 free to go, but we'll rise all together.
9 We'll have a break for half an hour.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 [The witness withdrew]
12 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
13 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.
14 [The witness entered court]
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, may I introduce a new
16 member of our team.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We have with us today
19 Nadja Hayman Jelenkovic of Serbian Chinese dissent from Hong Kong.
20 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
21 Would the witness take the solemn declaration, please.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
23 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
24 WITNESS: SVETOZAR STANIC
25 [Witness answered through interpreter]
1 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Stanic. Please be seated and make
2 yourself comfortable.
3 Before you proceed, Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber will now issue its
4 oral ruling on the admission of 65 ter 4017A.
5 Having considered the parties' submissions, the Chamber is of the
6 view that the provenance and the date of the video had not been
7 sufficiently established for the purpose of admission. The Chamber
8 further notes that the witness was not able to further comment on this
9 point or on any other matter depicted in the video. The Chamber will
10 therefore not admit 65 ter 4017A into evidence.
11 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
14 Q. [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Stanic.
15 A. Good day, Mr. President.
16 Q. I would kindly ask you to speak slowly as I should. Also let us
17 pause between questions and answers so that the interpreters manage to
18 interpret everything we say and that it's all reflected in the record.
19 A. Fine. No problem.
20 Q. Did you give the Defence team a statement?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Just pause a bit, please.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D6725, could we have that in
24 e-court, please. 1D6725.
25 JUDGE KWON: Shall we switch it to e-court. Yes.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is this the statement that you gave to the Defence team?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Thank you. Did you read this statement and did you sign it?
5 A. Yes, that's correct. I read it and I signed it.
6 Q. Thank you. Does this statement accurately reflect everything you
8 A. Everything is recorded the way I remember it and the way I put
10 Q. If I were to put the same questions to you today in court, would
11 your answers be the same?
12 A. I hope so. If they are written in this statement.
13 Q. Thank you.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to
15 tender this statement according to 92 ter, and there are no associated
16 exhibits except for an additional one.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll admit it.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6725 receives number D2678,
19 Your Honours.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Now I would like to
21 read out a brief summary of Mr. Stanic's statement. I'll read it out in
23 [In English] Svetozar Stanisic was born on 26 of December, 1945,
24 in the village of Dubljevici, Gacko municipality. He completed his
25 primary school in Vogosca and then attend the secondary school in
1 Sarajevo where he also obtained a university degree at the faculty of
2 forestry. He worked in Sipad Inzenjering in Sarajevo until 6 of April,
3 1992. Mr. Svetozar Stanic was a deputy in the Vogosca Municipal Assembly
4 and a member of the Vogosca Crisis Staff.
5 After the events of March 1992, the assassination of a Serbian
6 wedding guest, inter-ethnic tensions escalated drastically. The Serbian
7 people felt threatened because the MUP Ministry of Interior in Sarajevo
8 harboured the organisers and perpetrators of this act.
9 Members of the SDS found the legal basis for the formation of the
10 Serbian municipality of Vogosca in the BH Constitution and the SDS
11 created this, which was constituted in March 1992. In doing this, the
12 SDS adhered to the legal basis and the law of ONO. That means
13 All People's Defence. Svetozar Stanic considers that the directive or
14 plan A and B is a response to the decision of the government of the
15 Republic of BH in the regionalisation of BH. It was intended as a
16 reminder to municipal authorities of the provisions of the
17 Law on National Defence, All People's Defence, and relevant sections of
18 the constitution.
19 Until mid-April 1992, there were no problems with inter-ethnic
20 relations in Vogosca. However, in mid-April of 1992, the Muslim forces,
21 completely unprovoked, surrendered an unarmed civilian settlement of
22 Grahoviste. The civilian inhabitants were taken to other villages and
23 nothing is known of what happened to them. Following this, the Muslims
24 launched an attack on the Pretis munitions factory and a number of Serbs
25 were killed. There was also an incident when 150 cars and a lorry full
1 of shells were misappropriated when Muslim guards were on duty. These
2 events gave rise to a certain distrust and suspicion towards Muslims.
3 The Crisis Staff of Vogosca was established in -- and it operated
4 on democratic principles, issuing guidance to the
5 Assembly Executive Committee. Committees were established for areas
6 including registering abandoned flats, public utilities and shop
7 supplies. As a member of the Crisis Staff, Svetozar Stanic did not
8 receive from any civilian or military authority any orders, instructions,
9 or suggestions concerning the expulsion of non-Serbs from Vogosca. Any
10 Muslims who wanted to leave Vogosca were allowed to do so without any
11 conditions and Muslim residents who remained received the same food
12 supply as Serb residents without any discrimination.
13 Communication between Vogosca and Pale was extremely difficult.
14 A forestry path was used to travel around the villages and to Pale, which
15 was critical as many of the other roads were blocked. Muslims often
16 placed ambushes and -- roadblocks even on this, the only road, and
17 attacked all vehicles travelling on this which were mainly vans carrying
18 wounded to the hospital. Many Serbian civilians had been killed and
19 wounded whilst travelling between Vogosca and Pale.
20 Svetozar Stanic was aware of the Sonja Motel where prisoners of
21 war were temporarily detained until they could be transferred to the Kula
22 prison. Svetozar Stanic also learned about Planjia Kuca prison but only
23 later on from media. While at that time he was in Vogosca he was not
24 aware of this.
25 In relation to the attack on Vogosca SJB, he is aware that it was
1 carried out by Boro Radic of his own accord. Before the outbreak of the
2 war, Radic had led the Patriotic League youth in a parade. When the
3 attack occurred, the police station was still a joint SJB with all
4 nationalities working in it. The situation was resolved without any
5 further loss of lives. However, many people were taken to hospital,
6 where at the same time Juka Prazina was killing in the hospital -- Kosevo
7 Hospital was killing Serbian patients and doctors. Immediately after the
8 event, the BH MUP divided the police forces at all levels.
9 A meeting was organised on 20th of -- around 20th of April, 1992,
10 between members of the SDS, SDA, and the League of Communists of
11 Yugoslavia. Plans formulated by the SDS were suggested for all parties
12 to become involved in the protection of the state, commercial and
13 personal property and public institutions. It was also suggested that
14 the representatives if the -- to these representatives if the SDS and SDA
15 should meet more often and resolve their differences in a peaceful and
16 civilised manner. However, the SDA representatives did not accept the
17 proposal and were inflexible and demanded absolute power of the entire
18 territory of Vogosca municipality.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I have a document that I'd like to ask you about, Mr. Stanic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please call up 1D06726.
22 Could we please have that in e-court.
16 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed.
17 Do you have any observation, Mr. Tieger?
18 MR. TIEGER: With respect to the privacy concerns? I think it's
19 a very good point, Mr. President. I don't know whether it even extends
20 beyond that, but with respect to that level of detail, I certainly agree.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Or if necessary, you can upload a
22 redacted version, redacting only the telephone number later. Let's
24 MR. TIEGER: I was [overlapping speakers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Or probably the address as well.
1 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. We agree.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Stanic, in this letter is he conveying his regards to other
5 representatives of the authorities through you as well as other prominent
6 Serbs in Vogosca?
7 A. Yes. He mentions Jovo Pejovic, a member of the Crisis Staff
8 here, Jovan Pejovic. And also this Beganisic [phoen]. However, he was
9 already in Belgrade by then. I don't know the man, so I did not really
10 get in touch with him. What was his name? Beganisic. As for Jovo
11 Pejovic, who was a member of the Crisis Staff, I told him about that and
12 he was very pleased. He was very pleased to receive such greetings.
13 Your Honours, I have never given anyone this before. It happened
14 to be in my passport when I travelled to Chicago. Chicago, Belgrade,
15 Amsterdam, Chicago, that's how I travelled in 2001, 2002, whatever, so I
16 thought that I could call Mr. Bajrakovic and we could have a cup of
17 coffee, because it wasn't possible then because I was at the airport,
18 only I didn't have a visa for Europe, so I had very little time and we
19 could not really meet up then.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Honours, can I have this
22 marked for identification, please.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll mark this for identification with the
24 understanding that the redacted version will be uploaded instead of this
25 one. We'll mark it for identification, I mean the redacted one.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Document 1D6726 receives number D2679,
2 Your Honours, MFI'd.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Just another question, Mr. Stanic. Where did Mr. Bajrakovic live
5 before he left, and how was he enabled to leave?
6 A. Mr. Barakovic lived in the urban part of Vogosca, that is to say
7 in the centre basically. Only the basis of a decision of the
8 Crisis Staff of the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca, one of the conclusions
9 was that all people who wished to leave the territory of the municipality
10 of Vogosca, regardless of whether they were Muslims or Croats, that they
11 should be allowed to leave in unhindered fashion with their property,
12 this movable property that they might have had, cars and other movable
14 Q. Thank you. Did the same apply to Serbs, military-aged Serbs?
15 A. No. Military-aged Serbs were not allowed, because they had this
16 obligation according to the Law on All National Defence. All Serbs who
17 were called up by the Secretariat of National Defence in the municipality
18 were duty-bound to respond to call-up, and if a person would prove to be
19 able bodied, then they would stay, whereas if people were not capable of
20 doing certain things then they were allowed to leave the municipality.
21 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stanic.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] At this point in time I have no
23 further questions of this witness.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
25 Mr. Stanic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief has been
1 admitted in most part in writing in lieu of your oral testimony. Now
2 you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the
3 Prosecutor, Mr. Tieger.
4 Please proceed.
5 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning,
6 Your Honours. This is actually the first time in days I get to see
7 Judge Baird from this position.
8 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
9 Q. Mr. Stanic, as Mr. Karadzic alluded to in his summary, you
10 discuss at paragraph 5 of your statement your views of the instructions
11 of 19 December, otherwise known as variant A and B, including your
12 conclusion regarding its relationship to Bosnian regionalisation six
13 months earlier and that it was a reminder of various laws.
14 Now, in paragraph 8 you also mention the establishment of the
15 Vogosca Crisis Staff on the basis of All People's Defence and social
16 protection. In fact, Mr. Stanic, the Vogosca Crisis Staff, as you
17 indicated in your testimony in the Momcilo Mandic case in 2007, was
18 established in response to the 19 December instructions; correct?
19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I would kindly ask you to deal with these
20 questions one by one. I cannot answer all three questions that you put.
21 So would you agree that we deal with one question first and then the
22 other one, and could we see on the monitor these items that you are
23 interested in?
24 JUDGE KWON: By the way, do you have your statement with you now?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] My statement is in my jacket. I
1 asked if I could take it with me, and then if not, I could receive a copy
2 from you. So I don't really have it.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. I think the Court will be happy to provide you with a copy of the
5 statement. And this appears to be a copy here.
6 Now, Mr. Stanic, just to clarify, I referenced paragraph 5 for
7 your benefit but did not ask you a question about it. I referenced
8 paragraph 8 for your benefit but did not ask you a question about it.
9 The question was this: In fact, the Vogosca Crisis Staff was established
10 in response to the 19 December instructions, just as you indicated in
11 your testimony during the Momcilo Mandic case in 2007. That's correct,
12 isn't it?
13 A. Well, let me tell you, I don't remember. In my dossier, or,
14 rather, in my statement it says the Crisis Staff of Vogosca was
15 established on the basis of the Law on All People's Defence and social
16 protection so there were laws and that's how it was established then at
17 the time and we had been cautioned -- or, rather, we were informed that
18 we should invoke the organisation of the Crisis Staff according to this
19 plan A and B.
20 Now, what am I trying to say? I'm trying to say that already in
21 that period there was reason to suspect that Muslims through their
22 representatives in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina wished to secede by
23 force from -- to have the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina secede and
24 thereby our Serb people too. According to the Law on All People's
25 Defence, a certain caution was given in this way to -- I'm sorry.
1 Q. I'm sorry to interrupt you, sir, but I'm going to do that when
2 your question -- when your response is not directly -- does not directly
3 answer my question, because I have limited time.
4 A. All right.
5 Q. So if I understand your answer correctly, the answer is you were
6 informed, that is, we in Vogosca, I presume, were informed to create the
7 Crisis Staff according to the -- to plan A and B, but then you wanted to
8 explain some of the reasons behind that; is that correct?
9 A. That's right.
10 Q. Thank you. Now, I mentioned paragraphs 5 and -- paragraph 5 of
11 your statement in which you focus on various laws and the alleged Bosnian
12 government move towards regionalisation six months earlier, but,
13 Mr. Stanic, the fact is, is it not, that variant A and B provided for the
14 establishment of Serb organs of power. It was about establishing control
15 so that when the war began at that moment in the municipalities where
16 Serbs were in the majority, they had municipal power, held it firmly,
17 controlled everything, and in the municipalities where they were in the
18 minority, they had set up secret government, Municipal Boards,
19 Assemblies, that they had set up a government and a brigade, a unit, no
20 matter what size, and there was a detachment with a commander? That's
21 the thrust of what A and B was about and what it accomplished; correct?
22 A. That is not very precise. I have to refer you to certain legal
23 provisions in relation to plan A and B. I said then also and in my
24 statement that this is based in -- on the Law of the All People's Defence
25 of the former Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina if it is in accordance with
1 the then SFRY, that is to say the Socialist Federal Republic of
2 Yugoslavia. So the Crisis Staffs were established in municipalities,
3 even in local communes. The Crisis Staff of Vogosca had --
4 Q. Mr. Stanic, excuse me. All right. Are you -- again and I want
5 to focus on the question. These are not platforms for you to explain
6 everything you might want to say about the general topic, so just please
7 try to focus on the question and we will move, I think, in a more logical
9 So with respect to what I described to you, you said that is not
10 very precise. Does that mean you think there are other aspects that
11 could be elaborated on including what you consider to be the underlying
12 legal basis, or does that mean you're saying that's not wrong and that I
13 was not providing an accurate summary?
14 A. Well, you didn't provide an accurate summary, sir, because, and
15 this is why I wanted to point this out, to explain this to avoid any
16 mistakes so that you don't have an impression that it could be
17 interpreted in various ways, my interpretation is that all the
18 municipalities in Bosnia-Herzegovina at the time had in accordance with
19 the law the right to form Crisis Staffs if there was an imminent threat
20 of war, an external or internal threat. The Serbian part of Vogosca
21 municipality, well, there was also a Muslim part in Kobilja Glava, they
22 had their Crisis Staffs before we did --
23 Q. [Overlapping speakers] Mr. Stanic, stop, please. I'm sorry, sir.
24 And I know it feels [overlapping speakers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Just a second. Let's hear him out
1 this time.
2 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, that's -- that's -- I'm always
3 willing to do so but I've been given extremely limited time.
4 JUDGE KWON: We'll bear that in mind.
5 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
6 JUDGE KWON: Let's proceed. Okay. You were stopped when you
7 were saying, "a Muslim part in Kobilja Glava, they had their Crisis Staff
8 before we did."
9 Please continue.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] They had a Crisis Staff before we
11 did, and throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina the Muslims and the HDZ had
12 their own Crisis Staffs. So we established our Crisis Staff in the
13 municipality of Vogosca in January or February 1992, whereas the HDZ
14 established its Crisis Staffs sometime in September 1991. The SDA, the
15 Muslim Party of Democratic Action, established its Crisis Staffs even
16 before the multi-party elections held in November 1990, and these were
17 paramilitary formations, the Patriotic League and the Green Berets and
18 Lilies, and so on and so forth. So they already had their Crisis Staffs
19 that were legally maintained. We were aware of their existence and this
20 was a response to that. We Serbs who at the time felt under threat
21 thought we had to organise ourselves as best we could in order to protect
22 ourselves and all the others living in the area regardless of their
23 ethnicity, their nationality. We wanted to be secure in those areas and
24 this was above all a means of procuring food, providing health care,
25 treatment, and everything else. I can't remember all the details, but
1 everything else in accordance with the Law of All People's Protection and
2 social self protection.
3 MR. TIEGER:
4 Q. Two things quickly. First of all, Mr. Stanic, can you tell me
5 where, that is, what provision of the SFRY Law on All people's Defence
6 uses the term "Crisis Staff"?
7 A. Well, the Crisis Staff -- well, it's in accordance with the
8 constitution, with the laws in force in Socialist Republic of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina at the time. As for the article concerned, I can't remember
10 them now. If I had prepared this, I'd be able to refer to these articles
11 that addressed this issue, but I can't tell you that according to those
12 provisions on All People's Defence, its well-known Law on All People's
13 Defence and self protection, according to this law which is based on the
14 constitution of the SFRY, well, these constitutions are in accordance
15 with the republican constitutions, so that is the situation.
16 Q. All right. So you can't tell me that and in fact I put it to
17 you, Mr. Stanic, that there is no mention of Crisis Staff in the SFRY
18 Law on All People's Defence at all.
19 A. As far as I know it is mentioned, the Crisis Staffs in certain
20 situations, and this also concerns republican ones. I can tell you that
21 president of the Territorial Defence at the time was Franjo Herljevic,
22 and he was also the president of the civilian protection, and
23 Crisis Staffs also were considered to be Crisis Staffs in certain
24 segments for certain units, for certain republican levels, but the
25 republics would then transfer this to municipal levels to
1 Municipal Boards.
2 Q. All right. I'm also going to put it to you that it's not
3 mentioned in the constitution, but I want to talk to you about what
4 the -- what I raised earlier, and that is that irrespective of the legal
5 provisions you mentioned, the answer you gave had nothing to do with
6 whether or not when the war began in the municipalities where the Serbs
7 were in the majority they had municipal power, held it firmly, controlled
8 everything, and in the municipalities where they were in the minority set
9 up secret government, et cetera, and in any event had a government and a
10 brigade. That -- what I read to you earlier, that you said was not
11 precise, Mr. Stanic, that you said was not accurate, those were not my
12 words, Mr. Stanic. Those were the words of Mr. Karadzic to the
13 Bosnian Serb Assembly in April of 1995.
14 A. In April 1995. I don't know what Mr. Karadzic said then, but all
15 I can do is give another explanation. In the territory where the
16 authorities were mixed, the Serbs and Muslims, I'm talking about the
17 municipality of Vogosca, there the local communes in accordance with the
18 law concerning the organisation, they could leave certain municipalities
19 if they weren't happy. This was in accordance with the
20 Law on Constitution, Article 263 or 235 of the constitution of Bosnia and
21 Herzegovina, and they could join up with another municipality or
22 establish a new municipality. And it is on the basis of those laws, if I
23 may continue --
24 Q. No, you may not continue. I'm asking you, please, about
25 variant A and B. I'm not asking you about other legal bases that in your
1 view would have permitted the municipalities to take certain action. I'm
2 asking you about this particular document, why it was disseminated, and
3 how it was implemented. Now, I just cited you language about what A and
4 B accomplished. You said it was wrong, and now I turned your attention
5 to the fact that it was Dr. Karadzic who said that. Now, do you still
6 dispute that that was the effect of variant A and B?
7 A. Well, variants A and B are defined in that way. May I comment on
8 them so that we get the right answer?
9 Q. I don't want a dissertation on A and B generally. I want an
10 answer to my question. Do you still dispute that that -- it is wrong to
11 say that was the effect of variant A and B, that that's what it
12 accomplished? You had a full opportunity to describe your other views
13 about A and B in your statement. Now I'm asking you about very precise
14 aspects of it.
15 A. Could you put that direct question to me once more, please, if
16 it's not too difficult.
17 Q. I asked you if it wasn't the case that A and B provided for the
18 establishment of Serb organs of power and was about establishing control
19 over territories so that at the moment the war began in the municipality
20 where the Bosnian Serbs were in the majority they had municipal power,
21 held it firmly, controlled everything. In the municipalities where they
22 were in the minority they set up secret government, Municipal Boards,
23 Municipal Assemblies, presidents of Executive Boards. You will remember
24 the A and B variant. In the B variant where we're in the minority, we
25 had set up a government brigade --
1 A. Yes, yes. Yes. We established that at the time, but it's not a
2 secret. It was done quite publicly.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. And in Vogosca, it was Jovan Tintor who -- who
4 became the president of the Crisis Staff, who created military
5 formations, a brigade, indeed went from municipality to municipality
6 creating military formations on order from his president; correct?
7 A. No. Jovan Tintor was the president of the Crisis Staff of
8 Vogosca. As a member of the Main Board of the SDS of Bosnia and
9 Herzegovina, and therefore he did not organise those military brigades.
10 On the contrary, the Crisis Staff issued instructions to executive
11 committee of the Municipal Assembly. They were to carry out a
12 mobilisation, and it was the secretary for national defence of the
13 Municipal Assembly of Vogosca, Jovan Pradanovic [phoen], who was
14 responsible for this, and he called up all members who wanted to respond
15 to the call-up in accordance with the law, all members who wanted to
16 respond to this mobilisation.
17 Q. Mr. Tintor, in fact, was the head of the illegal brigade in
18 Vogosca. Isn't that correct?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Well again, Mr. Stanic, I'm quoting the words of Mr. Karadzic
21 before the Bosnian Serb Assembly:
22 "We made various calculations and agreements with Yugoslavia. We
23 decided to set up the TO, the Serbian brigades, which were indeed led by
24 the SDS but not as a party army but as people's army, for not everyone
25 dared to put himself at the head of an illegal brigade and oppose the
1 Green Berets like Jovan Tintor."
2 And that's at P00970. That's what Dr. Karadzic said about
3 Jovan Tintor in front of the Assembly and in front of Mr. Tintor. Do you
4 still dispute that?
5 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters are kindly asking the counsel
6 not to touch his microphone while talking.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] President of the Crisis Staff, and
8 in the Crisis Staff at the time, at the beginning, there were 21 members
9 as far as I can remember, and the Crisis Staff issued guidelines to the
10 Executive Committee, Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly of
11 Vogosca, and before the war the president of the Municipal Assembly was
12 Rajko Kopravica, and don't want -- Mr. Karadzic said about Jovan Tintor,
13 but while I was there Jovo Peranovic was Secretary of National Defence
14 established, or, rather, issued a call-up for mobilisation. All the
15 reserve officers responded all those who had served in the JNA or were
16 serving in the JNA and it was their responsibility to respond to the
17 call-up in accordance with the law. At the time in accordance with those
18 regulations a brigade was established in Vogosca in the neighbourhood
19 where Captain Zoric, reserve captain, was. He -- deceased. The brigade
20 was established in Blagovac and Miladin Trifunovic was the commander
21 there. So those are the brigades that were established on the basis of
22 the call-up issued by the municipal authorities, Krivoglavci, Semizovac,
23 all those who responded at the time became part of those brigades.
24 Q. I quoted you earlier from Mr. Karadzic describing variant A and B
25 and what he continued to say at that time was about the SDS organising
1 the people and creating the army. Was that -- that army that had been
2 created by the SDS together with the police were the armed forces of the
3 Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, "They created the space,
4 liberated and created the space." And again that's found at P970.
5 You'll find that at English pages 316 through 317.
6 Now, Mr. Stanic, the space that was liberated by the Bosnian Serb
7 forces was sometimes in areas where the Bosnian Serbs were a majority and
8 sometimes in areas where the Muslims were a majority but that there were
9 strategic or other reasons, economic, for example, for the Bosnian Serbs
10 to seek that territory; is that correct?
11 A. Sir, could you please put questions to me about the
12 Vogosca Municipal Assembly. Don't ask me questions of a general kind.
13 The Vogosca Municipal Assembly established its units in the territory
14 where the Serbs were in the majority. That's Krivoglavci - I mentioned
15 that place earlier - Blagovac as well, Vogosca, or the urban part of
16 Vogosca, Donji Vogosca, Semizovci, and so on and so forth. So those are
17 places where the Serbs were locals. They had been so for centuries. And
18 according to the last election they were in the majority. I can answer
19 such questions but don't ask me about these general issues as to who
20 lived where. I had so many problems at the -- at that time that I was
21 concerned with these problems that I'm testifying about here today.
22 Q. Try to focus on the question and not elaborate more than is
23 necessary. I'll ask you about Vogosca first of all.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. According to the 1991 census, Vogosca was a Muslim majority
1 municipality. There were more Muslims in Vogosca than Serbs; correct?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. And in Vogosca, it was the view of the political leadership from
4 the beginning that Vogosca had to be taken because of its industry.
5 That's correct also, isn't it?
6 A. Vogosca, well, that's partially correct. What is fully correct
7 is the following: Pretis and Vogosca, the urban part was 70 per cent
8 Serb. Pretis, Utava [phoen], Tasa [phoen], Vogosca, that area, that
9 urban area had a majority of Serbs in comparison to Vukovlja [phoen]
10 Glava, Hotonj, Barice where that wasn't the case. So therefore we didn't
11 conquer anything. We didn't take any territory. We protected the
12 military industry, economic facilities in Vogosca at the time and at the
13 time Vogosca was one of the strongest municipalities in the
14 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia. There was the Pretis
15 industry there, one of the largest place in the Balkans. There was a bed
16 factory Tas and Unis, and there was the Tas car factory where Volkswagens
17 were produced, or, rather, 50 per cent of it was Tas. So that was
18 industry that was of importance and Pretis is a military industry --
19 Q. Mr. Stanic, I fear it's not going to be possible to educate you
20 on your full tendency to elaborate on everything that's raised, but now
21 you're giving me a dissertation on the full extent of industry in Vogosca
22 which hasn't been asked for. So let me return to the subject we were
23 discussing and that was the reason to take Vogosca.
24 MR. TIEGER: And in that connection may I call up P05511.
25 Q. And I'm going to direct your attention to a meeting of the
1 Vogosca Serbian Municipal Assembly held on the 14th of November, 1992,
2 which was attended by, among other people, yourself. In fact, it
3 appeared that as president of the Serbian Municipal Assembly, you chaired
4 the meeting. And by Mr. Momcilo Krajisnik. And if we turn to page 3 of
5 the English and page 5 of the B/C/S we see Mr. -- a reflection of
6 Mr. Krajisnik's remarks. And in the middle of the page in English it
7 states the opinion of the political leadership about Vogosca is positive.
8 In the beginning the opinion was take Vogosca because of its industry.
9 That's correct, isn't it?
10 A. No, that's not correct. We didn't take the industry in Vogosca.
11 We protected it, because this was the property of the
12 Secretariat for National Defence in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia,
13 and this is Pretis, and according to those directives we protected it.
14 We didn't take it, because the attack on the 17th and 18th of April took
15 place on Vogosca. And it was the Muslim forces who went from Hotonj,
16 Barice, Kobilja Glava, Sarajevo. There were paramilitary units and they
17 took it on that occasion and then the JNA got involved. So Pretis was
18 the property of the SSNO. We did not take it. We just protected it.
19 And I also asked the Muslim side at a meeting to protect --
20 Q. [Overlapping speakers]
21 A. -- it. I apologise.
22 Q. I'm sure you'll get better at this. By that time, that is the
23 14th of November, 1992, in fact the Bosnian Serbs had taken 80 per cent
24 of Vogosca and were still looking to -- looking for more, that is looking
25 to liberate, in their words, more. That's correct, isn't it?
1 A. Vogosca. I don't know which period you are referring to now,
2 sir, but --
3 Q. Let me look at the remarks of Miladin T. I presume that's
4 Mr. Trifunovic. That's page 2 of the English, also page 2 of the B/C/S.
5 He says, We took -- this is toward the top of the page in English. We
6 took 80 per cent out of 30 per cent of the territories. And then he goes
7 on in the next long paragraph, we have to clean up the area of the
8 Kobilja Glava, et cetera, et cetera, we will finish our job and liberate
10 Now, there Mr. Trifunovic is talking about the extent of Vogosca
11 territory that has been taken up to that point and about the intention to
12 take more; correct?
13 A. That's not correct. That is not correct for the simple reason
14 that at the Vogosca Municipal Assembly, there were -- in the
15 Municipal Assembly there were several local communities, and wherever the
16 Muslims were in the majority we didn't tamper with them. We didn't agree
17 on anything. On the contrary, at one of the meetings of the Crisis Staff
18 Miladin Trifunovic was issued a task as the commander of the
19 Blagovac Battalion. Since Blagovac was above battalion, his task was to
20 protect Pretis and to make sure no one damaged it. And his second task
21 was that Mr. Miladin Trifunovic should communicate with the Tihovici
22 local commune which was a neighbouring local commune and nothing was to
23 be done to provoke a conflict or incident of any kind. So that was his
24 task issued by the Crisis Staff. I can tell you that and I can stand by
25 that. And on the other hand, Uglasuglevci [phoen] was never attacked
1 Ugorsko, Ugljesici, Betanija, and Kobilja Glava --
2 Q. Now, go ahead. You were dealing with Kobilja Glava, please, and
3 that's what I wanted to direct your attention to. Please continue.
4 A. So at that time we did not take or conquer anything. All we did
5 was protect our local communes. This was done in agreement with the
6 presidents of the local communities and in agreement with the deputies,
7 representatives. These were the local communities where the Serbs were
8 in the majority. So there was an exceptional case around the beginning
9 of May. If I may, sir, explain this.
10 Q. No, please, unless the Court wants you to --
11 A. Very well. Thank you.
12 Q. I want to focus on this. So do I understand that you're
13 telling -- do I understand correctly that you're telling this Court that
14 when Mr. Trifunovic said on May -- on November 14th that they were not
15 satisfied with the amount of territory and spoke about plans to finish
16 the job and liberate Kobilja Glava, that that was not correct, that there
17 were no plans to liberate Kobilja Glava?
18 A. I can claim with full responsibility that I don't know about
19 this, and there were no discussions about taking Kobilja Glava,
20 Tihonje [phoen] or Barice. I can claim this with full responsibility,
21 and I don't know what he was saying at the Assembly. I can't remember.
22 But you know, this is the truth. I'm telling you this with full
23 responsibility, and I stand by everything I said.
24 Q. Well, then let's turn to a meeting of the very next day, the
25 15th of November, 1992. And this was a meeting of the
1 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command, which was attended by various members of
2 the command and also various officials from Sarajevo municipalities,
3 including Mr. Prstojevic, from Ilidza; Mr. Radic, Trifko Radic, president
4 of the Sarajevo Assembly; and yourself, the president of Vogosca
6 And if we turn to page 16 of the English and page 11 of the
7 B/C/S, we see remarks by you, sir.
8 JUDGE KWON: Do you have the exhibit number or the 65 ter number.
9 MR. TIEGER: My apologies, Mr. President. Yes, it's P5065.
10 Q. And there we see your remarks. You greet the audience and then
11 speak of "the five municipalities to create plans with the commanders to
12 liberate Kobilja Glava."
13 So despite your assertion that you can claim to this Court with
14 full responsibility that there were no plans to liberate Kobilja Glava,
15 the precise opposite was true, Mr. Stanic?
16 A. Can I see who signed the minutes and who kept it, because I don't
17 recognise this. I don't recognise myself in these words.
18 Q. Mr. Stanic, you can look at the front page of the document. You
19 can look over the entire document, as far as I'm concerned, if you want.
20 JUDGE KWON: Shall we show the first page -- just a second --
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps just the first page.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. And for your information, the record was taken by
24 Colonel Aleksa Krsmanovic, and that's indicated at the end of the
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Last page.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Public Prosecutor, believe me
3 when I say that I met Aleksa Krsmanovic for the first time in Belgrade
4 when he was released. I believe he had been taken prisoner by the Muslim
5 forces together with General Djukic. That is when I met him for the
6 first time, Mr. Krsmanovic.
7 Q. There were a lot of people at this meeting, obviously,
8 Mr. Stanic. I'm not suggesting you met him at a formal introduction to
9 him at the meeting. He's the note-taker at that meeting taking elaborate
10 notes on a very long meeting in great detail and indicating your presence
11 very clearly, giving your titled, where you're from, and recording what
12 you said.
13 A. I wasn't able to see where the meeting was held. If possible,
14 could we go back to that page?
15 Q. Beginning of the document indicates pursuant an order of the
16 Sarajevo-Romanija Corps command, consultations --
17 A. Command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps.
18 Q. Consultation was held at the Slobodan P. Zelja barracks in
19 Lukavica beginning at 10.00 and ending at 16.30 on the
20 15th of November, 1992.
21 A. I state responsibly that I was not present at that meeting. As
22 far as I know, the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca municipality lasted a
23 long time, the session of the 14th of November, 1992. It was then when I
24 resigned. Following my resignation, I no longer took part in any
25 activities. That is why I'm saying this. That is why I do not recall
1 this. I told you when I saw Mr. Krsmanovic for the first time and it was
2 the only time.
3 JUDGE KWON: But do you see your name, Mr. Stanic, on number
4 20 -- 20 --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see it. I see it. I saw it
6 before. But I'm telling you that I wasn't present at the meeting.
7 MR. TIEGER:
8 Q. I just want to clarify one more thing with respect to
9 Kobilja Glava. That was a settlement or a village or area consisting of
10 2.866 people, 2.750 of whom were Muslims, four of whom were Croats, and
11 46 Serbs, along with 37 Yugoslavs. Is that correct or approximately
12 correct, Mr. Stanic?
13 A. I was moving the headset or the microphone, so I couldn't hear
14 you well. If possible, could you please repeat the question.
15 Q. Sure I just wanted you to confirm the demographics of
16 Kobilja Glava as indicated in 1991 census and that would be approximately
17 2.866 people, about 2.750 of whom were Muslim.
18 A. I think so. I don't see wrong with the figures. I don't know
19 precisely, but I presume it was as you put.
20 Q. Thank you. Mr. Stanic, you were asked in -- about detention
21 facilities in Vogosca, and that's reflected in paragraph 13 of your
22 statement, and you emphasise that your responsibilities on the
23 Crisis Staff were related to commercial matters and noted that someone
24 else was, and that's Mr. Luketa, I believe, was in charge of matters
25 related to detention facilities. So as I understand it, you assert that
1 your information about such facilities was limited because that was not
2 your job.
3 A. That's right. But I wasn't in charge of commercial matters, but
4 I was in charge of legal and trade entities in Vogosca municipality, and
5 I was tasked to conduct negotiations with the SDA and HDZ
6 representatives. I was tasked to do that by my party if such talks ever
7 occurred at the -- on the local level.
8 Q. Now, you did mention that you knew about the existence of Sonja's
9 place, and I wanted to ask you whether you knew that it was established
10 by the Crisis Staff.
11 A. Yes. The Crisis Staff established Sonja's as a place where
12 people could be interrogated, and that was also the first headquarters of
13 the Crisis Staff once we left the adult education centre. We moved to
14 the Sonja Motel then, and at one of the sessions the Crisis Staff decided
15 to take over the facility from Zeljko Beganovic. He happened to have
16 been a good friend of mine together with his mother Sonja because I used
17 to take lunch there often, and that's where the Crisis Staff was set up.
18 After some shellings from Ugljesici and Ugarsko we had to move
19 the Crisis Staff and we actually changed location every three or four
20 sessions because we were in danger. A decision was made by the
21 Crisis Staff to set up an interrogation and judicial facility at the
22 motel in order to be able to conduct investigations of prisoners so that
23 they could be sent onward to Kula or processed further. That's the truth
24 of it. Perhaps I elaborated a bit.
25 Q. Now, do I understand, then, that you were not familiar with a
1 detention facility called the bunker, which was close to Sonja's place?
2 A. Mr. Prosecutor, since I grew up in that part of Vogosca, I can
3 tell you the bunker facility dates back to World War II. I recall it.
4 It is some 200 metres away, although I never went there, so I don't know
5 precisely. In any case, when I was a young man and I went to swim there,
6 it had always been locked.
7 Q. Sorry. I should have asked that a bit more precisely, and that
8 is were you familiar with the use of the bunker as a detention facility?
9 A. No. I didn't know that, and I explained that there was a metal
10 door at the entrance of the bunker. I remember it since when I was a
11 little boy on my way to swim. It was overgrown, and I never actually saw
12 it with my own eyes. I have never heard that it was used as a kind of
13 prison or anything else.
14 Q. You've indicated you never heard that it was used as a prison or
15 anything else. Let me just get a little more clarity on this. Are you
16 claiming that you know that it was not used as a facility or that you
17 just never heard that it was and you don't know whether or not it was or
18 was not?
19 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I never heard of such intentions, and I have no
20 knowledge that it was used to that end. I only know of the Sonja's place
21 as a location designated by the Crisis Staff. Now, what was done there,
22 who brought whom, and whether they used the bunker, that's something I
23 don't know.
24 Q. Well, there's a man by the name of Slobodan Avlijas who is on the
25 Defence witness list who was an assistant minister of justice in 1992,
1 and he testified at the trial of Momcilo Mandic that he came to Vogosca,
2 saw the bunker and that the conditions were "truly horrific." Indeed, he
3 said that when he was talking about it many, many years later, he was
4 "still horrified." Do you have any reason to doubt that, that is that he
5 observed the bunker was being used as a detention facility and that
6 conditions were horrific?
7 A. Mr. Prosecutor, really, I never received such information from
8 him. If he came there, I guess he should have turned to those competent
9 in the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca municipality and the
10 Executive Council as well as to the administrative and judicial bodies.
11 If I had known about it, although I had no power in the Executive Board,
12 being its president, I would have insisted to shut it down. I didn't
13 know. That's what I can repeat. And I'm not familiar with it.
14 Q. Well, Mr. Avlijas testified at the Mandic trial not only that he
15 was horrified by the conditions of the bunker but also that he met with
16 Mr. Koprivica, the chairman of the Executive Board, Mr. Zdravko Luketa
17 who was in charge of these matters as I believe you indicated for the
18 Crisis Staff, and yourself, and complained about those "truly horrific"
19 conditions at the bunker.
20 A. Mr. Prosecutor, I can only repeat what I've just said. I wasn't
21 aware of it, and that he did not talk to me on that topic. I assert
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the date of Avlijas's
25 MR. TIEGER: I can call up the 65 ter number if -- well, that's a
1 little bit much for a witness on Mr. Karadzic's own list. I'm reciting
2 fully accurately what Mr. Avlijas testified to in the Mandic trial.
3 JUDGE KWON: Let us proceed, Mr. Tieger.
4 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Just for planning purpose how much longer would you
6 need, Mr. Tieger?
7 MR. TIEGER: Here's what I have to discuss with the witness left,
8 Mr. President: I want to discuss the status of the detainees as
9 reflected in several documents related to the Crisis Staff, and then I
10 want to discuss with him the issue of volunteers. So I would imagine
11 that's -- given how time has gone thus far, I would imagine about
12 20 minutes unless the length of the answers changes abruptly.
13 JUDGE KWON: If you could try to conclude before the break.
14 MR. TIEGER: I'm doing my absolute best, Mr. President.
15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. Okay. I want to discuss with you, Mr. Stanic, how the detainees
18 at the bunker and other facilities got there. First of all -- and who
19 they were, okay?
20 Now, I understand you testified at the -- at the Mandic case that
21 you didn't have information about civilians being taken prisoner, that
22 you referred to prisoners of war. Do you recall that testimony or -- or
24 A. I recall my testimony.
25 Q. Okay. Are you saying that you know for a fact that civilians
1 were never detained and held in detention facilities in Vogosca or -- or
2 just that you didn't have information to that effect, which of the two?
3 A. The only one is that the -- that I know of some detainees in the
4 Sonja's facility. That's what I know about and I stand by it. I can
5 repeat. On one occasion Zdravko Luketa, a judge, called me to visit it.
6 We were preparing to do so but I was called to an urgent meeting in
7 Ilidza and I didn't accompany him to the facility.
8 Q. Are you aware that Crisis Staff documentation distinguished
9 between persons who were considered prisoners of war and persons who were
10 not, that is, the nature of the documentation indicated that some were
11 prisoners of war and some wrote not?
12 A. As far as I recall, of course there were -- there were POWs and
13 detainees who were first placed in the Sonja Motel. They were
14 interrogated there, and if they had to be processed further or serve
15 their sentences, they were sent on to the Kula facility because we had no
16 such conditions to keep them. And Mr. Zdravko Luketa, who passed away in
17 the meantime and who was then the court president, told me the same thing
18 on a number of occasions.
19 Q. In respect of my earlier question I want to show you three
20 documents. The first is 65 ter 24003. This is a document signed by
21 Mr. Koprivica, and it orders as follows: You are hereby ordered to set
22 free the Muslim prisoner of war. It provides his name, and it indicates
23 that he used to be exchanged for Mr. Colic, who is a member of the VRS
24 and that that order shall come into effect immediately.
25 The next document is 24088. This is a document --
1 A. Do I need to comment on this?
2 Q. I'll ask you a question. These two documents are related, as
3 you'll see, and I'll ask you a question about those in a moment.
4 A. This is a document of the 29th of July, 1992, again signed by
5 Mr. Koprivica, and it orders the release of the following Muslim
6 prisoners of war is hereby ordered. It names these two. It indicates
7 that they are to be handed over to the commission for the exchange of
8 prisoners and the order is effective immediately.
9 Now, I showed you those documents, Mr. Stanic, so -- and I wanted
10 to ask you if we can agree that the Crisis Staff, when it was capable of
11 and in fact did identify someone as someone they considered to be a
12 prisoner of war, explicitly when they considered that to be the case.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see where this
14 refers to the War Staff?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the War Commission.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. [Overlapping speakers] followed on the heels of the Crisis Staff?
18 A. So it's got nothing to do with the Crisis Staff, Mr. Prosecutor.
19 Q. Let me ask you another way. The officials, the authorities of
20 Vogosca in charge of such matters, that is -- and in this case the
21 commission which took over after on -- in -- in -- which was the official
22 body following the Crisis Staff was fully capable of indicating who in
23 their case -- who in their view they considered to be a prisoner of war
24 and did so explicitly in their documentation.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be -- could the
1 witness receive another interpretation of the question slowly so that he
2 understand it well. I don't think the interpretation of the question was
3 accurate. Could we have another interpretation of the question while we
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. For what it's worth it's a little unusual for me for counsel to
7 be asking for -- on behalf of a witness to be taking the position that
8 the witness doesn't understand a question. The witness is fully capable
9 of letting us know if he don't understand the question or not.
10 Now, I'll repeat it, Mr. Stanic, if you wish.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Could you repeat your question, Mr. Tieger.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. The officials in Vogosca in charge of the detention and release
14 of prisoners, in this case the War Commission, were fully capable of
15 indicating who in their view they considered to be a prisoner of war and
16 of explicitly indicating that view in the documentation connected with
17 the release or exchange of such detainees.
18 A. First of all, let me explain something right away. Mr. President
19 was right that this was not a matter of the Crisis Staff, but this was
20 the War Commission which was set up on the 1st of June, 1992. As for
21 this order, I cannot comment on it, because it was part of the remit of
22 the Executive Board of the Municipal Assembly and of the judiciary. I
23 don't know where these prisoners were being held or, as they are referred
24 to, prisoners of war. I've never heard of them. I don't know whether
25 they were placed somewhere temporarily in Vogosca or whether they were
1 serving their sentence at the Kula facility. I cannot give you a precise
2 answer, because I'm unaware of it all as a member -- as for me being a
3 member of the War Commission, well, I wasn't.
4 Q. Yeah, you said that - it's in your statement - and, Mr. Stanic,
5 as well as your surprise that you, as an official at that level, didn't
6 transition into the War Commission like other officials; correct?
7 A. It's not clear to me.
8 Q. You were surprised that you as the president of the municipality
9 didn't transition from the Crisis Staff into the War Commission as the
10 other -- as most of the other officials of that level did; correct? And
11 you express that surprise in your statement.
12 A. It is correct that I was not a member of the War Commission. It
13 is also correct that I held such functions and positions as tasked by the
14 War Commission. It was an operational team comprising five people. When
15 invited by the president of that commission, I attended certain meetings
16 of theirs, only a number of them, but I wasn't familiar with this topic.
17 Q. All right. And I want to look at P2367. This is a document
18 related to the exchange of prisoners on the 25th of May, 1992. And this
19 does concern the Crisis Staff prior to the transition from Crisis Staff
20 into War Commission.
21 Now, this relates to the release from detention on condition of
22 exchange of certain persons who are listed both in that first page of the
23 document and then on a couple of handwritten appended pages, and it
24 describes them as follows:
25 "The citizens of Muslim ethnicity captured during fighting in the
1 residential area of Svrake will be released from detention ...,"
2 et cetera.
3 Now, Mr. Stanic can we agree that that language the citizen of
4 Muslim ethnicity captured in residential area, et cetera, is a reference
5 to the fact that these people are civilians, not prisoners of war?
6 THE ACCUSED: Where does it say civilian? In a
7 civil war, citizens fight --
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger is putting his question to the witness.
9 It's for the witness to answer the question.
10 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, if I may, that is really a patently
11 inappropriate intervention.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I don't know -- I don't know if
13 it is allowed to introduce such words without the exact word "civilian"
14 being mentioned in the document. In our system --
15 MR. TIEGER: [Overlapping speakers] And it -- and it -- and it
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you are feeding the answer to the
19 MR. TIEGER: [Overlapping speakers]
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I'm only asking Mr. Tieger to
21 show us where it says civilian.
22 JUDGE KWON: Do not overlap, Mr. Tieger.
23 MR. TIEGER: I'm sorry, Mr. President, but as the Court has
24 observed before once the intervention take place the objection is -- is
25 no longer has any point.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may I explain?
2 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber finds your intervention
5 this time very improper and inappropriate. In the future, if you'd like
6 to make an observation, could you tell us just you have an objection
7 without putting the question. Then the Chamber will see whether we need
8 to hear your submission in the absence of the witness or not. And this
9 time we'll not -- we don't have to hear you further. We agree with
10 Mr. Tieger that his -- his question is fair enough, in the Chamber's
12 Would you like take a break, Mr. Tieger, or you can conclude in
13 five minutes?
14 MR. TIEGER: I think it's better probably to take a break,
15 Mr. President, and I will absolutely pare down the remaining questions to
16 the bare minimum. I will try to conclude in -- as quickly as possible.
17 There won't be much time afterwards, but I'll do my best to make it even
18 less than what it would have been.
19 JUDGE KWON: We will take a break for 45 minutes and resume at
20 quarter past 1.00.
21 --- Recess taken at 12.32 p.m.
22 --- On resuming at 1.21 p.m.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger, please continue.
24 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
25 Q. Mr. Stanic, I want to complete our discussion of this document
1 and then move on to very briefly discuss our remaining topic.
2 Looking at P2367, the document of 25 May 1992, issued by the head
3 of the department for judiciary administration and regulations with the
4 consent of the Crisis Staff, the language used there, Mr. Stanic, to
5 refer to those persons held, that is citizens of Muslim ethnicity, the
6 reference to their capture in the residential area of Svrake, that
7 language in contrast to the explicit denotations we saw in the previous
8 two documents that you looked at is a reflection of the understanding
9 that these people were civilians. Isn't that right, Mr. Stanic?
10 A. No. These are members of the army -- or, rather, the
11 Patriotic League, and if I may, Mr. Prosecutor, I would like to give a
12 deeper or broader explanation in order for you to get an impression as to
13 who this was.
14 During or, rather, before the outbreak of the war --
15 Q. Mr. Stanic, if this is something that Mr. Karadzic cares to get
16 into, he's welcome to do so, but I understand that your answer is that
17 when this document referred to the citizens of Muslim ethnicity and
18 describes where they were captured, that your view -- your position is
19 that is a way to refer to people who were considered to be POWs; correct?
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger, did he not say that he believed -- or
21 they were members of the Patriotic League, and he was cut off while
22 giving the reason for his -- for his -- such impression or belief.
23 Mr. Stanic, could you continue.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As I started to say a moment ago,
25 these are members of paramilitary units or, rather, the Patriotic League
1 that was established even before the multi-party elections were held in
2 November 1990. The task of these paramilitary units was as follows:
3 From well-founded sources we learned that --
4 JUDGE KWON: Stopping there, but what is your basis? What was
5 your basis for such a conclusion that they were the members of the
6 paramilitary unit?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I told you that I had to give a
8 deeper explanation. On the basis of sources, a certain Nenad Spiric, who
9 secretly got into the Svrake local commune, ethnically that's about
10 95 per cent, 96 per cent Muslim populated, it's a village, these are only
11 privately owned housed, there aren't any urban facilities there, he hid
12 there, the rascal, and he saw all their plans and all their agreements as
13 to what should be done. To tell you the truth, at first I didn't believe
14 that, but the Crisis Staff made a decision, namely that in the barracks
15 opposite Svrake certain posts should be filled. There was a captain
16 there who was a Montenegrin and a Macedonian who was, I don't know what,
17 a sergeant, and the members of the Territorial Defence entered there to
18 safeguard the property of the JNA. From Svrake. And then later on I
19 found out --
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stanic, please concentrate on answering the
21 question. So take a look at this list. I take it you can read the
22 first -- first three or four names. On what basis that you are saying
23 that Camil Cehajic was a member of the paramilitary?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, that's what I wanted to
25 explain to you, that paramilitary units are actually the
1 Patriotic League. They were paramilitary units at the time, because the
2 MUP was still in existence, and even before that there was the
3 Yugoslav People's Army, the JNA. Now, we had to --
4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. -- could you read out the name after
5 Camil Cehajic?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, to tell you I can read this
7 in the English version. In my version to tell you the truth, you can't
8 really see it. I don't even know these names. And that's why they were
9 detained, to see who it was that they were, actually, so that we could
10 see whether they were members of the paramilitary units and whether they
11 were residents of the local commune of Svrake, because they had
12 surrendered after a while. That was --
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Stanic, my question is the second name reads as
14 Alija Halilovic. How do you know he was a member of Patriotic League?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, Judge, Your Honour,
16 Mr. President, that is why we had to examine this. That is why this list
17 was in the Crisis Staff and in the secretariat for justice, to look into
18 the matter to see whether they were Patriotic League or not. If they
19 were not, then they were exchanged for Serb prisoners, and that was the
20 decision of the judiciary organs of the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca.
21 JUDGE KWON: And if they were, what would happen to them?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If they were, then they would be
23 dealt with at the Kula prison and where their intentions and tasks would
24 be looked at. I don't know any of these names. And the Crisis Staff
25 didn't know either.
1 JUDGE KWON: And you said if they were not, then they were
2 exchanged for Serb prisoners. Then do you agree then those prisoners who
3 were not members of Patriotic League were civilians?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, they were not civilians. All
5 of them were military conscripts. All of them were young-ish men. So
6 they were not civilians. All of them carried weapons. Now, within this
7 agreement, certain exchanges were supposed to take place, and they all
8 took part in the attack against the JNA barracks in Semizovac. We could
9 not make a distinction as to who members of the Patriotic League were and
10 who were the people who were planted there by the
11 MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina illegally to take the barracks of the JNA and
12 to cut off the road between Visoko and Sarajevo. For that reason this
13 had to be looked into to see who they were, what they were doing and how
14 many people were planted there from the MUP who had special tasks of
15 their own.
16 JUDGE KWON: Back to you, Mr. Tieger.
17 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. I move on to the
18 volunteers. I'd also like to tender the previous two documents we looked
19 at, 24003 and 24088.
20 JUDGE KWON: What was the document that bears 24088?
21 MR. TIEGER: The 29 July release to [indiscernible] of war.
22 [Trial Chamber confers]
23 MR. TIEGER: They were shown in quick succession.
24 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic do you have any objection to the
25 admission of 24003? Vogosca War Commission document.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if I were to see it I believe
2 I wouldn't have any objections, but now I can no longer tell which
3 document it is.
4 JUDGE KWON: Shall we upload it, 24003. Two prisoners of war to
5 be handed over to the War Commission.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No. No objection. I believe the
7 document is authentic, although this witness perhaps didn't know this.
8 JUDGE KWON: Given the accused's position, we will receive this.
9 THE REGISTRAR: Document 24003 receives number P6058,
10 Your Honours.
11 JUDGE KWON: And shall we upload the next document.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No objection, your Excellency.
13 THE REGISTRAR: Document 24088 receives Exhibit P6059,
14 Your Honours.
15 MR. TIEGER:
16 Q. Mr. Stanic, in paragraph 14 of your statement --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just one clarification. In para 13 of -- of the
18 witness's statement, he refers to so-called Planina Kuca. Does it mean
20 MR. TIEGER: No. It's a reference to -- I believe that's a -- I
21 mean, as the witness, of course. But I think Kuca is home, house
22 [overlapping speakers]
23 JUDGE KWON: [Overlapping speakers] Where do you have bunker in
24 his statement?
25 MR. TIEGER: He doesn't reference the bunker in the statement,
1 Mr. President.
2 JUDGE KWON: So you asked about it for the first time.
3 MR. TIEGER: Yes.
4 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Please continue.
5 MR. TIEGER:
6 Q. Mr. Stanic, in paragraph 14 of your statement you state what you
7 know about the volunteers, As it begins in connection with the volunteers
8 I know the following, and you explain that a group of volunteers led by
9 Jovo Ostojic arrived and were immediately placed under the command of the
10 VRS and who sent them. Now, Mr. Stanic, what you didn't mention is the
11 fact that the municipality paid the volunteers. That's correct, isn't
13 A. What do you mean the municipality paid them, the volunteers?
14 Q. Correct.
15 A. Again, I will have to give a lengthier explanation. According to
16 the Law on All People's Defence, the status of volunteers is defined. So
17 a volunteer is every person who does not have a wartime assignment and
18 who wishes to volunteer of their own free will into an armed unit. So
19 the duties and responsibilities of volunteers are defined in the Law on
20 All People's Defence. So the municipality is not duty-bound. This goes
21 through the ministry. And now it depends which one, how this was
22 financed. So volunteers and military conscripts in regular armed forces
23 of Republika Srpska have the same obligations.
24 Q. Okay. As before, you provided a -- some sort of legal
25 dissertation on the status of the subject matter. My question, I think,
1 is a bit simpler, and that is: Did Vogosca authorities provide payment
2 to the volunteers or seek payment for funds to go to the volunteers? Was
3 that something that the municipal authorities of Vogosca did that was, in
4 fact, not mentioned in paragraph 14 of your statement?
5 A. It is not mentioned in paragraph 14 of my statement. That's
6 true. It's right here in front of me. But it's possible that they did
7 pay, the municipal authorities did, but with the possibility of being
8 refunded from the Ministry of Defence of Republika Srpska, the
9 appropriate organs. It's possible, but I cannot recall. It's been a
10 long time after all.
11 Q. Let's look at P2373. This is a document dated the
12 15th of July, 1992. It's a document sent by you and signed by you, sent
13 to the Ministry of Finance seeking reimbursement of funds, including
14 reimbursement of funds in the name of reimbursements to volunteers. In
15 the English by the way there's a tiny typo. It seems to say 500. As we
16 can see in the B/C/S, it actually says 500.000.
17 This document, Mr. Stanic, is a reflection of the fact that the
18 municipal authorities were funding the volunteers and then later seeking
19 reimbursement, in this instance from the republic authorities of RS.
20 A. That's right. The date is the 15th of July, as we see, and then
21 the municipal secretary, that is to say the secretary for national
22 defence of the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca, he wrote this up, and I
23 signed it technically. Why did I do that? It was only the president of
24 the municipality that could sign a document and have the stamp affixed
25 there. I do not doubt this, that this was my signature, and this is
1 correct information, because the secretary for national defence of the
2 Municipal Assembly of Vogosca had a list and he knew exactly who should
3 get what and these resources should get refunded. So you can see this
4 and this is quite all right, and, as I said a moment ago, they have these
5 rights and responsibilities like all other members of the armed forces
6 and volunteers.
7 Q. Now, in addition to the fact that the municipality funded the
8 volunteers, what is also left out of paragraph 14 when you describe what
9 you know about the volunteers is the fact that officials from Vogosca
10 went to get them, and, in fact, Mr. Stanisic you went to get them;
12 A. That's correct. I went there because this was a case of
13 volunteers from Sombor, and this is the association of Serbs from
14 Bosnia-Herzegovina in the territory of Serbia and they had a section of
15 their own in Sombor, and these young men volunteered saying that they
16 wanted to join up because originally they hailed from Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 The parents during the 1940s, they were transferred to Vojvodina, Srem,
18 Backa, Baranja. That's correct.
19 MR. TIEGER: I have nothing further for this witness,
20 Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Tieger.
22 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do, Excellency, a bit more than
25 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
1 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Stanic, as for these papers A and B that you
2 were asked about, did you take this to be an instruction or a binding
3 order to act?
4 A. Mr. President, this was an instruction that we had received in
5 order to analyse it, and this is what I can tell you: When we received
6 this instruction as to how we should behave, there was this legal team of
7 the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca that worked on this and compared it to
8 appropriate legal provisions and we thought that this was in accordance
9 with Law on National Defence and social self protection and that is why I
10 referred to all of that in my letter.
11 Q. Thank you. In which situations are ad hoc bodies created in our
12 part of the world? Regardless whether they're called Crisis Staffs or
13 War Presidency in which are they established?
14 A. I always invoke laws, Mr. President. This is regulated by law.
15 If the state is attacked, either from the outside or the inside, certain
16 bodies are established that will ensure the safety and security of
17 citizens and make sure that they receive proper supplies and then the
18 business community, companies, enterprises, so on, and I believe that all
19 of this is regulated in legal provisions and I remember full well that
20 Mr. Luketa and a few other lawyers analysed that then.
21 Q. What was the function of Mr. Luketa whom you mentioned?
22 A. Luketa was even before the war broke out the secretary -- the
23 secretary -- he was actually a misdemeanors judge and then later on he
24 became president of the court of the Municipal Assembly of Vogosca. So
25 he was in charge of legal acts in Vogosca and as such had been co-opted
1 into the Crisis Staff.
2 Q. Thank you. On page 44 of today's transcript, Mr. Tieger, in his
3 compound questions, suggested that the Serb side or, rather, the SDS was
4 preparing to firmly hold on to power throughout the municipality where
5 Serbs are a majority and in municipalities where they are minority, that
6 they would establish their own administration or some kind of government
7 of their own. Did you know -- or, rather, were Muslims and Croats denied
8 the right to establish their own municipalities where they had condition
9 for that -- conditions for that?
10 A. No. On the contrary. When I was involved in negotiations on
11 behalf of the Crisis Staff, I was authorised by the Crisis Staff from the
12 Municipal Assembly of Vogosca and I offered them that we draw the border
13 in a peaceful manner, that we respect each other until a definitive
14 solution was reached. And why did I do this? Because of at time a
15 conference had already started, an international conference, the purpose
16 of which was to define the problems in Bosnia-Herzegovina in accordance
17 with Cutileiro's plan, and before it was known as Lord Carrington's plan,
18 and that was sometime in March 1992. It is then that this initiative was
19 launched, and to be quite frank at the time I believed that war would not
20 break out because all three factions, and you were also present in
21 negotiations, all three factions agreed that a solution should be found
22 in order to divide up the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina and to form
23 entities, if I'm not mistaken; if I am, do correct me.
24 Q. Thank you. Did the Muslims in Vogosca have their own
25 municipality in Vogosca?
1 A. The Muslims in Vogosca had their own municipality at
2 Kobilja Glava and in that municipality -- that municipality included all
3 inhabitants who were in Ugarsko, Ugljesici, Hotonj, Barice,
4 Kobilja Glava. It included all those people who had left the core part
5 of the city, the core part of the town of Vogosca, the urban part.
6 Q. Thank you. As a municipality, was it your ambition for the
7 Serbian municipality of Vogosca to include parts of the Muslim
8 municipality of Vogosca, settlements that had a Muslim majority?
9 A. No, we didn't have such an intention at the outset. We didn't
10 receive such ideas from anyone, and within the Crisis Staff this was not
11 matter that we ever discussed.
12 Q. Thank you. Did the Muslim side have the ambition to place the
13 Serbian neighbourhoods under its own control?
14 A. From the very beginning from April onwards, when they started
15 taking civilians in the Grahovici village -- well, these people were
16 civilians who weren't armed. From that point in time they used deception
17 to take them in, to bring them in and even today we don't know what
18 happened to them. That included Spasojevici, Pajdaci, Zivkovici,
19 Vladusici, and so on and so forth. But that is the case, Mr. President.
20 It can be seen by the following: Mile Palija, that is the first and last
21 name of one of the persons in that group, he had a summer house in
22 Grahovici, he was also arrested, but since he was a labourer and a good
23 worker in Pretis, the Pretis company, a friend of his recognised him and
24 he said, Mile you should flee from here, flee downstream otherwise you
25 will all come to harm. What did that mean? Well, there was then the
1 attack on Pretis on the 17th or 18th or the 20th I don't know exactly.
2 Q. We'll get there later.
3 THE INTERPRETERS: The speakers are kindly asked to slow down for
4 the interpretation.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I would like to ask you whether Mr. Trifunovic --
7 JUDGE KWON: Please put a pause, both of you, for the benefit of
8 the interpreters and us. Please continue.
9 MR. TIEGER: And I may make this marker now. I think we're
10 already straying into area that stretch the boundaries of the
11 cross-examination, and I will be rising to make that objection if it
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You'll see your Excellencies that
15 that is not the case. On page 55 you were asked the following -- well,
16 in fact, you were told that Mr. Trifunovic had asked that Kobilja Glava
17 be liberated. Did Mr. Trifunovic -- was Mr. Trifunovic part of the
18 civilian authorities? What was he a part of?
19 A. Mr. Trifunovic was a commander. He was the commander of the
20 Blagovac Battalion. I don't know when this was presented, Mr. President.
21 When I was there Mr. Trifunovic had certain tasks he had to carry out on
22 behalf of the Crisis Staff. I told the Prosecution about that. He had
23 to take care of Pretis. That was the military task that had been
24 assigned to him when the mobilisation was carried out and he was to have
25 good neighbourly relationships with the Tihovici local commune.
1 Q. Thank you. Did Mr. Trifunovic have any military reasons to
2 liberate Kobilja Glava?
3 A. No, by no means. He had no such reasons. And I am quite
4 surprised that he gave such a statement to be quite frank.
5 Q. And were you attacked from the area of Kobilja Glava?
6 A. There were incessant attacks from Kobilja Glava. The first one
7 was the one launched on Pretis. That was on the 18th or 19th of April,
8 and then there were attacks from Betanija, and there were incessant
9 attacks on the municipality as well on the Crisis Staff headquarters in
10 Kosinj and on the Hotel Park, and so on and so forth. So this was
11 shelling from Kobilja Glava, Betanija, Ugorsko, I believe, and Ugljesici.
12 So for those reasons as I have just said, we frequently change our
13 location. We would move elsewhere in order to avoid being hit by shells
14 and there were also attacks when a route was made from Pretis to Poljine
15 and our convoys were incessantly attacked, our convoys that were
16 transporting food and medicine for the population. Then there were vans
17 that were transporting the civilians and the wounded which was also
18 attacked, and so on and so forth, but I can't remember all the details
19 because this happened a long time ago but that's what the situation was.
20 Q. Thank you. What I have mentioned is something that Mr. Tieger
21 showed you. On page 57 he showed you a document from the session of the
22 Assembly. It was dated the 14th of November. Could we now have a look
23 at 65 ter 15746. Could we see the first page in the English version. Do
24 we agree that this was drafted on the 14th of November, 1992? It's
25 regular combat report to the Main Staff of the Army of Republika Srpska.
1 You see the date at the top, sir?
2 A. Yes, see the date but I can't see the text. I don't see what it
3 is about.
4 Q. I will read it out to save time. Paragraph 1 says:
5 "The enemy periodically violated the agreed truce during the day
6 with the most active attacks being towards Zuc and Orlic from the
7 direction of Boljakov Potok and Kobilja Glava towards Vogosca. A
8 sabotage group the strength of a squad also penetrated that axis."
9 How does this fit in with the information you have about the
10 activities in Kobilja Glava?
11 A. There was such action all the time from Kobilja Glava and beyond,
12 and attacks were launched from Sarajevo against Zuc. And on the
13 10th of July, 1992, the Muslim forces took Zuc. They took the most
14 elevated position on Zuc which is Orlic, and they drove back our forces.
15 Zuc is inhabited exclusively by Serbs, and on that occasion they set fire
16 to Zuc and our territorial forces went further down 50 to 60 metres
17 further down and that is where they held that line.
18 Q. Thank you. With regard to these attacks from Kobilja Glava,
19 would that be the military reason for liberating Kobilja Glava regardless
20 of the fact that you didn't want to include it?
21 MR. TIEGER: Okay. Multiple things wrong with it. Number one,
22 first, it was asked and answered, and then when the accused got an answer
23 he didn't want, now he asks a leading question to the contrary. So I
24 object to this approach once again.
25 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber absolutely agrees with your observation.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Very well, I'll rephrase the question. I'll ask the following:
3 Mr. Stanic, do you stand by what you said a little earlier that
4 Mr. Trifunovic did not have any military reasons to go to Kobilja Glava?
5 A. I stand by that because he didn't even have the forces and in my
6 opinion there would have been huge casualties amongst our people if he
7 had. That's my position. Perhaps I'm mistaken, but there were reasons
8 because from Betanija and Kobilja Glava there was incessant shelling of
9 the Pretis neighbourhood and certainly between 30 and 40 people while I
10 was in Vogosca died in Pretis because of these attacks from
11 Kobilja Glava, but there were these reasons that it wasn't because of
12 Miladin Trifunovic. It's just that there was an Operative Group that
13 could have done this because we didn't have sufficient men for such
14 purposes at the time.
15 Q. Thank you. At the level of the Vogosca Brigade or the corps was
16 a military attempt made to liberate Kobilja Glava at any point in time?
17 A. No, this was never done.
18 Q. Could this document please be admitted into evidence?
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger.
20 MR. TIEGER: No objection, Mr. President.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Next Defence exhibit.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Document 15746 receives number D2680,
23 Your Honours.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Mr. Stanic, when did you resign from your position as president
2 of the municipality?
3 A. I resigned from my position as president of the municipality on
4 the 14th of November, 1992.
5 Q. Thank you.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could you we briefly have a look at
7 P5511. Could we see the Serbian version, 1D20513; and the English
8 version is P5511. The handwritten version in the Serbian language is the
9 other document I referred to. Could we see the -- could we see 1D20513,
10 the typewritten version, in fact, in Serbian and we can keep the
11 translation on the screen. Thank you. The date is the 11th of November.
12 Could we now see -- the 14th of November. I apologise. Could we now see
13 page 6 in the Serbian version and it's probably the same page in the
14 English version.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Mr. Stanic, could you please read out the part where it says
17 "Stanisic." It's the first line from the bottom just before
18 "Trifunovic." Stanisic requests and says.
19 A. Yes, yes, I can see it.
20 Q. Could you read it out?
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Please wait till we have the --
22 please wait till we have the English page.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's it.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Could you read it out loud. First Stanisic and then Trifunovic
1 and then the second Stanisic.
2 A. Stanisic: He is addressing all the present and informing them
3 that he is giving an irrevocable resignation. He cannot sit in the
4 municipal building and do nothing and be at the service of the army, so
5 it is no wonder there is nothing in this municipality. And then I
6 suffered enough. I do not want to be the president and you cannot retain
7 me. Mr. President, those aren't my actual words. My actual words were
8 quite different. If I may, and I remember this to this day, I resigned
9 for the simple reason that I wouldn't allow certain criminal activities
10 to take place. I wouldn't allow combatants at the lines to be at the
11 lines for seven, eight dates and I wouldn't allow other people to enter
12 their flats and houses. So I wanted to submit my resignation because
13 there was a previous agreement according to which the president of the
14 Executive Committee should be informed of his incorrect relationship to
15 the Assembly. So they asked me to do this. As the president of the
16 municipality I subjected myself to checks and then I told Mr. Rajko and
17 President Krajisnik, President Momcilo Krajisnik, I said this is what is
18 on the agenda. I read it out. Do you agree with it? We do. When I
19 read it out -- after I had read it out and when these items were to be
20 implemented we started firing on the President of the Executive Board --
21 well, then there was a dispute.
22 Q. Very well. Could we just stop here briefly. You say that these
23 minutes, the interpretation of the person who took the minutes but does
24 it reflect what you in fact said, the substance of what you said; namely
25 that you wouldn't remain and that they couldn't retain you there?
1 A. I said I'm tendering my irrevocable resignation and then the
2 president of the National Assembly, Mr. Krajisnik, intervened and said
3 that I should postpone my resignation for a month until the
4 Executive Board adopted a working programme and a report on its work. He
5 was supposed to do this in a timely manner.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. I apologise, Mr. President. And then when Mr. Krajisnik
8 intervened as well as the representatives who asked for me to stay on, I
9 said, Very well, I'll postpone my resignation for a month until a new
10 Assembly is held and until a new report on work is drafted. This has
11 nothing to do with what I now see before me. This is the first time I
12 have seen it.
13 Q. Thank you. In paragraph 14 you were asked about the volunteers,
14 and you yourself mentioned the association that was concerned. With
15 regard to payment for volunteers in the unit, was this in any way
16 different from the way in which conscripts who were called up were paid?
17 A. No. They had the same rights, the same salaries, the same
18 benefits and when they were wounded, the rights of their families were
19 enforced. The rights of a killed soldier had the right to disability.
20 The families of those who had been killed had the rights to an allowance.
21 Q. Did the municipality pay a paramilitary group of any kind?
22 A. No. Never as far as I know. Never did it pay any paramilitary
24 Q. Thank you. Under the law, what are the competencies, if any, are
25 there on the municipality local commune, in terms of defence or a
2 A. What do you mean a company.
3 Q. Well, did large companies have a role to play?
4 A. Yes, for example, like the Pretis factory. My organisation unit,
5 the department of security within the company had between 60 and 80
6 members who were armed. Our manager was Risto Bajalo. The people had
7 their weapons. Of course there was no artillery but infantry weapons.
8 Q. What about local communes and municipalities, did they have any
9 competencies in the domain of defence?
10 A. Yes. All local communes which were members of municipalities had
11 a role to play in terms of securing their territory as part of the
12 overall system of Territorial Defence.
13 Q. When a new municipality was established, what were its
14 obligations vis-a-vis Territorial Defence?
15 A. New municipalities acted in accordance with the law which was in
16 place before the new municipality was formed. If there were changes and
17 amendments to the law, then the municipalities and local communes had to
18 harmonise their statutes with those. So the harmonisation of legal
19 regulations and tasks had to be carried out in a precise way.
20 Q. Thank you. Please bear with me. You mentioned Pretis and its
21 defence role. Could we have 1D6265. During cross-examination it was
22 mentioned on page 53, line 11, the attack on Pretis. 1D6265. That's it.
23 I will read out. Is it the 18th of April the document?
24 A. Well, the attack on Pretis was on the 17th or the 18th, whereas
25 here I see the 18th. I always had a difficulty with -- with those two
2 Q. Thank you. Did you know the person who signed this document,
3 Mevludin Alic, from the Secretariat of National Defence?
4 A. I did not.
5 Q. Were there still joint bodies in place at the time?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Thank you. This is a document of Bosnia-Herzegovina signed by a
8 Muslim person; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Very well. I'll read at -- well the top of the page is
11 everything clear?
12 A. Yes, but I can't see the text itself well.
13 Q. But what are the bodies mentioned in the heading?
14 A. The town information centre in Sarajevo. Subject, report, the
15 date is the 18th of April. The number is 02/33, and then something I
16 can't read.
17 Q. Very well. So it was sent to the city information centre but who
18 sent it?
19 A. Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Vogosca municipality, municipal
20 Secretariat for National Defence, information centre.
21 Q. Was it still the joint municipality of Vogosca or the Muslim
22 municipality of Vogosca?
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the witness's
24 answer. There should be a pause.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, your conversation just simply moves
1 too fast for the interpreters to keep up. Please put a pause again. The
2 answer of the witness was not heard by the interpreters. Could we repeat
3 from there.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. When I asked you if it was still the joint municipality or the
6 Muslim municipality of Vogosca your answer was not heard.
7 A. It was the joint municipality. The authorities comprised both
8 Muslims and Serbs at the time.
9 Q. Thank you. Reading from the first paragraph at about 400 hours
10 in the morning on the 18th of April, 1992, a convoy of approximately ten
11 trucks came from the direction of Sarajevo and went through the front
12 entrance of Pretis disarming two security officers in the process. The
13 trucks went on to the warehouse of the Kones basic organisation of
14 associated labour where ammunition was loaded on the trucks and which was
15 then taken towards the exit. On the way to the exit they were attacked
16 by Pretis security officers and fighting ensued. Inhabitants of Blagovac
17 local commune and Hotonj local commune subsequently joined the fighting.
18 All this happened between 600 and 630 hours. Does the document reflect
19 what you had to say about the attack?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Whose trucks could have arrived from the direction of Sarajevo on
22 the 18th of April?
23 A. What I kept repeating was that only the Patriotic League could
24 come from that direction. It was a military formation of the SDA party.
25 They had their insignia and structure. They were the ones who went
1 through the gate.
2 Q. Thank you. We can see that some inhabitants of Blagovac took
3 part. Who was in the majority there?
4 A. Blagovac has 98 per cent of Serbs.
5 Q. So we see the inhabitants of Hotonj taking part too. Who was in
6 the majority there?
7 A. Hotonj, well, some took part. The majority population in Hotonj
8 is Muslim.
9 Q. Thank you. I seek to tender this?
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
11 THE REGISTRAR: Document -- document 1D6265 receives number
12 D2681, Your Honours.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Did you have a Serb paramilitary or any other kind of military
16 organisation in Vogosca at the time?
17 A. No.
18 Q. What were your expectations of the JNA in that regard? Please
19 pause. What were your expectations on the part of the JNA?
20 A. Well, I expected they would take prompt reaction, but only later
21 once Pretis had been defended they arrived taking over the gate and the
22 factory itself with a lieutenant-colonel. It was around 1.30 or 2.00
23 when everything had already stopped, all the fighting. It would have
24 been critical if the fighting had continued, because we did not have
25 enough strength to defend Pretis. Otherwise, it would have been taken by
1 the Patriotic League, the paramilitaries.
2 Q. Thank you. Overall, what were the expectations of Serbs in
3 Vogosca given the fact that they did not have their own paramilitary
4 unit? What did they expect the JNA to do in case of attack?
5 A. In case of an attack, it had to strike speedily and timely,
6 because it was a JNA facility and they were supposed to guard it, which
7 is what they had done up until a certain time. They had to react more
8 quickly, but they didn't. They only arrived before 2.00. We called you
9 and the late Koljevic and Krajisnik to take part so that the command
10 would provide reinforcements to secure Pretis as it was vital to the
11 population and Republika Srpska as well as Bosnia-Herzegovina. We didn't
12 know things would develop that way. We feared that it would fall in the
13 wrong hands because there was a lot of explosives there, and in case it
14 was taken over by the Patriotic League, it could have blown the whole
15 thing up. It would have been a disaster.
16 Q. Thank you. You said you contacted me. Could we have P5720. It
17 was the same date, and we can see my reaction in it. P5720.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 MR. TIEGER: I'm going to wait to look at the document, but this
20 may have been a time to rise and wonder exactly how this aspect of
21 redirect arises from cross.
22 JUDGE KWON: Can I hear from you, Mr. Karadzic?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 53, I believe, there was a
24 question about the attack on Pretis. My learned friend Mr. Tieger found
25 it necessary to check during his cross-examination some things from the
1 statement. The question had to do about the position of the first Serb
2 leadership concerning the industrial facilities in Vogosca.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let us hear the question.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have the next
5 page. The 18th of April is the date. Please take note.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The third or fourth line from the top, Radovan Karadzic is
8 talking to Milutin Kukanjac. Who was he?
9 A. General Milutin Kukanjac was the commander of the
10 Sarajevo Army District, as far as I recall and if I'm not mistaken.
11 Q. Thank you. So Karadzic: As for Vogosca, please, do see what was
12 going on there. Vikic and the Green Berets there are trying to take
13 Pretis to get ahold of the assets.
14 Kukanjac said: That has to be stopped.
15 In the English it is at the bottom of the page.
16 So he said: It must be stopped.
17 Could we go to the next page in the English.
18 In the Serbian Karadzic says: Our people there are defending it.
19 We're working on it.
20 Kukanjac said: Let them defend it.
21 Can we have the next page in the Serbian version.
22 Karadzic says: Could there be a buffer zone between them?
23 Kukanjac says: Let's see. We are in contact with them with this
24 Koprivica person to see what's going on.
25 Karadzic said: So please send someone. They're afraid of the
1 military. Let there be a buffer zone between them. The military is
2 welcome here in that sense.
3 Does this tally with what you know about our expectations on the
4 army part?
5 A. Yes, it does.
6 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
7 MR. TIEGER: Okay. I've made this objection repeatedly. This is
8 clearly a pattern. So Dr. Karadzic shows the witness a document he
9 clearly hasn't seen before and it takes clearly the form of a leading
10 question. He needs to lay a foundation. It's difficult to understand in
11 any event how a document like this is going to be successfully used in
12 the course of redirect but certainly not in this manner to lead the
13 witness through this document and just simply ask him to affirm aspects
14 of it that tally with what the accused wants him to say.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have an answer?
16 [Trial Chamber confers]
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I'm convinced that this
19 arises from cross-examination about the nature of the attack and our
20 intents with the industrial facilities in Vogosca. In terms of the
21 basis, I put a question --
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger is not challenging that -- the fact that
23 you are entitled to ask and put -- pose questions with respect to the
24 attack on Pretis. He was challenging the way you're posing the
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It seemed to me that Mr. Tieger
2 disputed the foundation. I can't find it, in which line, but in any
3 case, I will refrain from --
4 JUDGE KWON: Without leading -- putting some foundational
5 questions or -- if you put this document to the witness and ask a
6 question whether it's consistent with his understanding, that's a
7 typically -- a leading question.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have determined the foundation,
9 because there was the issue of attack on Pretis and our intentions with
10 Pretis, because that was touched upon in cross-examination.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. My question is: What do you have to say about this conversation
13 of mine with General Kukanjac?
14 A. It is my opinion that you acted correctly.
15 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me. Sorry.
16 JUDGE KWON: He answered that question a while ago. Shall we
17 move on, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Very well.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. You were asked about the bunker. You were also asked about the
21 Sonjas. And you said you didn't know about the bunker. What is this
22 Sonja's place? Can you repeat that for us?
23 A. It used to be called the Kon Tiki motel, which had five rooms and
24 a restaurant. It's a motel. It was called Sonja's or Kon Tiki. It was
25 owned by Sonja. The Crisis Staff was in communication with her son
1 Zeljko Beganovic at some point in time asking that the facility be made
2 available for us. I don't know whether he was present there at the time.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Can we have P2398.
4 Could we please zoom in and have the English version.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Is this the motel, and why did the Crisis Staff want to have the
7 motel at its disposal, to house which institution?
8 A. It's an order. We see that the motel was called Kon Tiki, and it
9 was owned by Sonja. It was provided to the public security station of
10 Vogosca municipality and to the TO. So it was requested that premises be
11 made available in order to bring in and question certain persons.
12 Q. Do you distinguish between prison and detention unit?
13 A. Yes, as I have said, we never had the appropriate conditions for
14 prison but a detention unit is temporary and from that unit we would send
15 people on to Kula for further processing.
16 Q. Thank you. Who carried out those investigations in Kon Tiki?
17 A. Lawyers as a whole with Zdravko Luketa and I think the prison
18 warden. I don't really know who the interviewer or interrogator was,
19 Mr. Vlaco Spiro. I don't know. I can't remember, but it was a judicial
20 authority who was involved in the interrogations.
21 Q. What was the comfort like in Kon Tiki?
22 A. It was good. There were four or five rooms there, double beds.
23 There was a restaurant on the ground floor 11 [as interpreted] with all
24 the facilities and there were rooms on the floors.
25 Q. Thank you. Does this order state that some sort of a bunker is
1 to be commandeered?
2 A. No. This order has nothing to do with the bunker.
3 Q. Could you tell the Chamber whose name is printed there? Well,
4 you can see it. Could you tell them who signed it?
5 A. On behalf of the president it was signed by Slavko Jovanovic, and
6 Jovan Tintor was the president of the Crisis Staff and this was of the
7 Crisis Staff. This was the decision taken.
8 Q. Thank you. As for the municipal authorities in conditions of war
9 when there is an imminent threat of war, do they have the right to
10 commandeer certain facilities, features for the authorities?
11 A. Yes. This is regulated by the law. They can temporarily
12 commandeer certain facilities to be used for certain purposes.
13 Q. Although you were not involved in this as you have said, as far
14 as you knew after interrogations and investigations had been carried out,
15 what were the possible outcomes? What might happen to the detainees?
16 A. After the interrogations had been completed, well, I wasn't
17 involved in that process, but it was always said that if there was no
18 proof that someone had been involved in some kind of a crime or
19 misdemeanour that person would be released. If there were any
20 indications that a crime had been committed then these people would be
21 transferred to the Kula two or three days later when it was possible.
22 Q. Could we see P2367, please. Could you please have a look at this
23 list of detained Muslims and tell us whether there is women among these
25 A. I can't see. Let me just have a look. Just a moment. No,
1 there -- there is no woman there.
2 Q. Thank you. Can you count how many of them were there?
3 A. One two, three, nine, I think.
4 Q. And to the right?
5 A. To the right, to the right, the names to the left, I can't see
6 them, Mr. President.
7 Q. Have a look at the English version.
8 A. The English version I can't see anything to the left.
9 Q. Is there a Besirevic on the right-hand side?
10 A. Besirevic, no. Yes, yes, there is a Besirevic. I do apologise.
11 Eleven, 12, 15. There are 15.
12 Q. And they were released for how many Serbs?
13 A. Two or three -- three Serbs. In exchange for three Serbs.
14 Q. Was this an exception or was it quite usual for us to give more
15 for less?
16 A. Well, we always released more of them. Whenever they would
17 register for an exchange, Luketa made certain proposals to that effect.
18 I think that he said if anyone wants to leave and go to Vogosca they
19 should go. They gave three in exchange. Whether this was an exception
20 or not, I don't know. I believe it was an exception. I can't remember
21 the -- but the decision was that the exchanges should be on the
22 one-for-one basis, but this -- in this case this number of persons was
23 exchanged for three persons.
24 Q. I just have another question. At the republican town and
25 municipal level was there commission for exchanges?
1 A. Yes, there was a commission for exchanges on all these levels on
2 the town level, on the republican level, on the municipal level.
3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Stanic for your testimony.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I have no
5 further questions.
6 [Trial Chamber confers]
7 JUDGE KWON: That concludes your evidence, Mr. Stanic. On behalf
8 of the Chamber I thank you for coming to The Hague to give it. Now
9 you're free to go.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours. If you
11 would allow me to shake the President's hand, it would be an honour for
12 me. If not, well ...
13 JUDGE KWON: No. Thank you, Mr. Stanic.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.
15 THE ACCUSED: Excellencies, I would like to address you for a few
16 minutes and then I see time probably we should start with the next
17 witness next morning.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
19 [The witness withdrew]
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'd like to apologise
22 for my reaction. However, I have to say that it's -- this legal system
23 is a significant problem for all of us. This system in which various
24 skills are allowed for the Prosecution, that wouldn't be permissible in
25 our system. And one of the significant problems that this Tribunal is
1 facing will be the fact that we are subjected to a judicial system that
2 doesn't resemble anything that is familiar to us. And therefore these
3 skills of trying to outfox someone while the accused is sitting here,
4 well, for us it's strange. I know it's allowed here, but in our system
5 it's not permissible to twist a question and obtain a positive answer to
6 such a question, because no witness is sufficiently concentrated to be
7 able to -- to see when the Prosecution is acting in a cunning manner.
8 JUDGE KWON: I don't agree with your observation at all,
9 Mr. Karadzic. If I can simply react to that. If you're not capable of
10 coping with the Defence, Mr. Harvey is there to take up the case if
12 Judge Morrison has a point for you, Mr. Karadzic.
13 JUDGE MORRISON: Well, at the risk of taking more time than I
14 intended, I have several points.
15 It's not that difficult in reality, Dr. Karadzic. The first and
16 most basic point is that re-examination must relate to an issue raised in
17 cross-examination. Either it does or it does not, and you are well
18 capable of determining that.
19 Secondly, you must ask non-leading foundation questions before
20 you put a document to a witness that hasn't previously been before him or
21 her. If the witness has no knowledge of that document or the matters
22 contained within it, there is almost certainly no proper basis for
23 adducing that document in re-examination or indeed at all. If, as has
24 happened several times, you ask a question and do not like the answer,
25 that is, I fear, the dilemma of an advocate in any system. What you
1 cannot do is to put a leading question or comment to try and get the
2 witness to agree with the material being subsequently fed to him or her.
3 Not only is that improper, the Court is very unlikely to give any
4 favourable response to material that comes before it in that way; it is,
5 therefore, a waste of time.
6 JUDGE KWON: Judge Baird also has a point.
7 JUDGE BAIRD: Dr. Karadzic, I just want to add just a small bit
8 to what Judge Morrison has said.
9 I don't think it's fair to Mr. Tieger to say that he's acting in
10 a cunning manner - I don't think so at all - and he was trying to outfox
11 someone whilst you were sitting there. I think I apprehend what
12 Mr. Tieger was insisting on is that you ask questions that are governed
13 by the rules of re-examination. I think that was the main thrust of
14 his -- of his objection. I don't think he was acting in a cunning manner
15 at all.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I absolutely do agree, and I do
17 accept that, but my apology has to do with my reaction in the course of
18 the cross-examination. Why was I upset? I called this military cunning,
19 but it wasn't derogatory. In this system it's permissible to try and
20 outfox someone. That's not permissible in our system. The judge would
21 immediately warn someone if that person was trying to confuse the
22 witness. But what has been said about redirect, well, I absolutely
23 accept all of that.
24 JUDGE KWON: And in the future, please bear in mind what I have
25 said during the hearing, that before you make your submission, please let
1 us know that you have an objection.
2 Yes, Mr. Tieger.
3 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, Mr. President, but just one last thing.
4 Dr. Karadzic is referring, I believe, to a particular question during
5 cross-examination. It is inconceivable that there is a distinction
6 between the adversarial system and the continental system in trying to
7 get at the truth, and when an examiner asks a witness whether or not the
8 language that appears in a particular document in fact is a reference to
9 something that's not explicitly mentioned, that's entirely fair. The
10 suggestion that Dr. Karadzic repeatedly makes that there is some
11 fundamental distinction between those two systems which handicaps him
12 here is, I think, patently untrue. Both system try in their own way to
13 get at the truth. That's all that I was trying to do here, as I believe
14 the Court could see, and I must say this is the first time I've ever been
15 the object of an apology that insisted I was being cunning.
16 JUDGE MORRISON: The point is well taken, Mr. Tieger. Perhaps
17 you would prefer to be known as the silver fox.
18 MR. TIEGER: I will take that in mind and hope that's the last
19 time I hear it.
20 JUDGE KWON: Just for planning purposes, is it still the case
21 Mr. Vujasin's testimony is fixed on Thursday?
22 MR. TIEGER: It is, Mr. President.
23 JUDGE KWON: So it's not possible to hear -- to start him
25 MR. TIEGER: Yes, that is correct.
1 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Given the time, we will adjourn for
2 today and resume tomorrow morning at 9.00.
3 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.40 p.m.,
4 to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 19th day
5 of December, 2012, at 9.00 a.m.