Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 33837

 1                           Monday, 18 February 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Today we'll be sitting

 7     pursuant to Rule 15 bis, with Judge Morrison away due to his urgent

 8     matters.

 9             You haven't finished, Mr. Karadzic?  Do we have Mr. Durmic?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We haven't started with him

11     yet.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Durmic.  Would you make the solemn

13     declaration, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.  I solemnly declare

15     that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

16                           WITNESS:  ZORAN DURMIC

17                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please make yourself comfortable.

19     Mr. Durmic, before you start giving evidence, I'd like to draw your

20     attention to a particular Rule here at the Tribunal.  Under this Rule,

21     Rule 90(E), you may object to answering a question from the accused, the

22     Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer will

23     incriminate you.  When I say "incriminate," I mean that something you may

24     say may amount to an admission of your guilt for having offended an

25     offence, a criminal offence, or could provide evidence that you have


Page 33838

 1     committed an offence.  However, even if you believe that your answer will

 2     incriminate you and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal

 3     has the power to compel you to answer the question, but in such a case,

 4     the Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way

 5     shall not be used as evidence in other case against you for any offence

 6     other than false testimony.

 7             Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Durmic.

10             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, your Excellencies.

12     Good morning, everyone.

13                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Durmic.

15        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

16        Q.   I have to ask you and to remind myself to make a pause between

17     what I say and what you say so that everything is recorded on the

18     transcript, and to speak slowly so we don't have to make corrections to

19     the record, because that is a waste of time.

20             Mr. Durmic, did you give a statement to my Defence team?

21        A.   Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see in e-court 1D7218,

23     please.  7218.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you see that statement on the screen now?

Page 33839

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Have you read this statement and signed it?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Could we see the last page to identify the signature.  Is this

 5     your signature?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect what you said

 8     in that interview to the Defence team?

 9        A.   In essence, yes, but there are things I could add regarding the

10     pre-war period in the area of Milici municipality.

11        Q.   Could you tell us this now.

12        A.   Yes.  I want to emphasise that the leadership of the municipality

13     and the leadership of the Boksit enterprise invested great efforts in the

14     negotiations with the Muslim population of Stedrici and Djile and other

15     villages located on the route from Milici to the mine to avoid a war.

16     All the employees of Muslim ethnicity were told that they are encouraged

17     to return to their work in the Boksit company and to get involved in the

18     restoration of the production of the ore, because we had international

19     contracts already signed, and any delay in the production and any

20     interruptions caused losses.  A couple of dozen tonnes of flour and other

21     supplies were delivered to that population.  Delegations to sent to

22     negotiate with them because they never wanted to come for negotiations to

23     our premises.

24             I worked in the security detail for these negotiations together

25     with other policemen.  And the population was willing to accept the offer

Page 33840

 1     to return to their work and to continue normal co-existence.  However,

 2     there were a couple of extremist leaders who exerted great pressure on

 3     their own Muslim people and did not let them carry out all these

 4     agreements.  People were blackmailed, and we have statements to confirm

 5     this.  People were told that their families would be killed, and there

 6     was even one statement that I believe is mentioned in my own which says

 7     that they were told, "If you don't want to join our units, we'll bring

 8     six men from Sandzak who will kill all your family members."

 9             Furthermore, I want to stress that from these villages that I

10     enumerated, by the end of May the population had come to the bank and

11     collected their salaries without any impediment, and as one of the

12     Muslims says in his statement, "We continued making this trip until we

13     were warned by the men at the roadblock in Jokovaca that we cannot go

14     there anymore.  And a couple of days after this prohibition of passage at

15     the roadblocks, these people, including one man who worked in the Boksit

16     company, made the request for accommodation to be found for them, all

17     these people who were getting called up in the mobilisation.  All these

18     people found refuge in the secondary school in Derventa, and in my

19     estimate there were about a hundred of them.  Food was brought to them.

20     Clothes were brought to them.  Mothers with children were put up there,

21     and, of course, we put up physical security around the centre so that

22     these people would not be threatened or put in any jeopardy.

23             And that day, around 10.00 p.m., it was drizzling.  The security

24     men noticed a group of people approaching the facility, and one of them

25     were -- was captured.  He was found to have explosive devices in a bag he

Page 33841

 1     was carrying.  Pieces of slow-burning fuse were found on these

 2     explosives, and this man said that --

 3             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch all the names of

 4     the Muslim leaders.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- who have sent these men to

 6     attack the centre and then blame the Serbs.

 7             That night we had to evacuate the people from that facility

 8     because we were no longer able to guarantee their safety, and then again

 9     in agreement with their representatives, we talked about where they want

10     to go and where they would feel the safest, because that location was no

11     longer safe.  Nobody wanted to be responsible if anything happened.  So

12     in the course of that night, with police escort we bused them to

13     Zaklopaca settlement where some of them rejoined their families, whereas

14     others were put up in the primary school.  They remained there for

15     another day or two, and then they continued in the direction of Tuzla or

16     wherever they had family.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  What was the situation with medical services and

19     trade?  How long did all this continue to operate in Milici and how?

20        A.   I've said previously that at the beginning of May, they were

21     still able to come to the bank and collect their salaries, which means

22     that they could also go shopping.  There were no problems.

23             As for health services, I remember one case when the conflict was

24     already going on, a young man, wounded, was brought by his own brother.

25     I don't know what he said, that Serbs or territorial men injured him or

Page 33842

 1     maybe it was a self-inflicted injury, but he was taken by ambulance to

 2     the military hospital in Sokolac, and in that statement I read he died

 3     during transport.  He was driven by an ambulance with proper medical

 4     staff around him, et cetera.

 5        Q.   Taking into account these additions, does this statement now

 6     accurately reflect what you said?

 7        A.   Well, this statement mainly reflects the pre-war situation in our

 8     municipality, Milici, and the relations between the Serb and the Muslim

 9     population and the approach taken by the leadership of the municipality

10     towards these people.

11        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you the same questions today as when

12     you were giving the statement, would your answers be essentially the

13     same?

14        A.   Essentially, yes.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I tender this 92 package,

17     92 ter?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, I'd like to deal with associated

19     exhibits one by one in light of the ruling that I gave last year, in

20     particular with respect to third-party statements.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're only offering five

22     associated exhibits at this stage.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we deal with it one by one?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  And we ask that all of them or whichever

25     ones you admit be added to our 65 ter list as we didn't have the


Page 33843

 1     witness -- the witness had not been interviewed as of the time of our

 2     filing of our exhibit list.

 3             The first one that we're offering is 1D7018.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Then 1D7019.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  1D7020, 1D7021, and finally, 1D7214.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, we have no objection to all of the

10     associated exhibits just mentioned by Mr. Robinson, although we would

11     query the relevance of 1D07018, which is the report of an on-site

12     investigation about an attack which we would say would be tu quoque.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Whether it's tu quoque or not, but the paragraph can

14     be understood without that exhibit, Mr. Robinson?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, that's true.

16             JUDGE KWON:  So are you minded to withdraw that exhibit as well?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Not really because we think it corroborates his

18     information, but if you don't think of it's of valuable to the Chamber

19     that's up to you, but we think it's corroborative of the information in

20     that paragraph.

21             JUDGE KWON:  While it may be corroborative, it is the Chamber's

22     view that the -- it does not form indispensable, inseparable part of the

23     statement as such.  So if we would not admit it -- admit it as part of

24     associated exhibits.

25             THE ACCUSED:  May I say something, Excellency?

Page 33844

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, you may tell us the relevance and you

 2     may lead it live.  We are not admitting it as part of associated

 3     exhibits.

 4             So we will be admitting those four associated exhibits, and what

 5     to do with the paragraphs that are related to the exhibit that were not

 6     tendered, I would like the parties to discuss to redact some part of the

 7     statement or not.  I leave it to the parties.

 8             Ms. Sutherland, do you follow?  If you could liaise with

 9     Mr. Robinson.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Shall we give the numbers for those.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the 92 ter statement will -- 65 ter

13     number 1D7218 will be Exhibit D2944.  And 65 ter number 1D7019 will be

14     Exhibit D2945.  7020 will be Exhibit 2946; 1D7021 will be Exhibit 2947;

15     and 65 ter number 1D7214 will be Exhibit D2948.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, precisely on the

18     example of this municipality, Vlasenica, the Prosecution has tried to

19     represent my speech as the trigger for the further chain of events, my

20     speech at that funeral, whereas the events described are much more

21     convincing as the trigger.  It is not about tu quoque.  It is about

22     finding out the reason why things happened.

23             JUDGE KWON:  The term "associated exhibit" is a kind of term of

24     art.  In order to be admitted as part of the associated exhibit, it

25     should be forming an indispensable and inseparable part of the statement.

Page 33845

 1     Please consult with Mr. Robinson.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.  Thank you.  Now I would read a summary of

 3     statement of Mr. Zoran Durmic in English, and then we'll see whether to

 4     lead this document live.

 5             Mr. Zoran Durmic was an inspector of the crime prevention police

 6     in the SJB Vlasenica.  Before the war, he was assigned to the reserve

 7     police of Vlasenica Public Security Station.

 8             Before the war, as a reserve, Zoran Durmic would take part in

 9     training exercises and listen to lectures.  Sometimes in mid-September

10     1991, he received a mobilisation call-up to report to the Vlasenica SJB.

11     He was assigned on this occasion because the situation between the Serbs

12     and Muslims was very complicated.  Current members of active-duty

13     policemen could not guarantee the security of the population so that

14     authorities were forced to mobilise the reserve police force of which

15     both Serbs and Muslims were members.

16             Mr. Zoran Durmic and his colleagues worked every day in shifts

17     patrolling the town of Milici, making the population seem more secure.

18     He spent a month or two in this position, until the security situation

19     improved.  However, he was mobilised once again in March 1992.  The

20     situation this time was much more dramatic the as there were already

21     armed clashes between Serbs and Muslims in some neighbouring

22     municipalities.  The JNA was also withdrawing from Croatia via Bosnia to

23     Serbia, and columns of military vehicles passed through Milici every day.

24             On 5th of April, 1992, Zoran Durmic received an order to escort a

25     military convoy to Mali Zvornik in Serbia along with two other officers,

Page 33846

 1     Radomir Pantic and Mirko Lekovic.  The officers travelled in an official

 2     police car.  However, on the way, they came to a Muslim barricade manned

 3     by Muslim policemen and one Muslim soldier among them was an active

 4     policeman.

 5             The convoy was stopped at the barricade and questioned.  The

 6     Muslim officers were rude, and it was clear that they disliked the JNA.

 7     Eventually, they let the convoy pass, and about a kilometre behind the

 8     barricade, the convoy came across a second barricade, this time manned by

 9     the Serb Territorial Defence.  The Territorial Defence moved the

10     barricade and allowed the convoy to pass unhindered.

11             The officers experienced abusive behaviour by the Muslims on

12     their return journey, and when the officers returned to Milici, they saw

13     that a large crowd had gathered in front of the police station.  They

14     were told that the crowd had gathered as the police were distributing

15     weapons to the Muslims.

16             The next day, Zoran Durmic again was requested to accompany the

17     same two officers to Banja Koviljaca and Zvornik to reclaim a car that

18     had been taken from an officer by Muslim forces the day before.  On the

19     way, they encountered a car positioned across the highway blocking their

20     way.  As they approached, a number of armed Muslim soldiers jumped out of

21     the bushes.  They were all armed with automatic rifles, and the officers

22     were ordered to get out of the car.  The Muslims took the police

23     officers' pistols and automatic rifles.  The Muslims also took the police

24     car that the officers had been travelling in.

25             Zoran Durmic noted that the soldiers were well armed, dressed in

Page 33847

 1     new camouflage uniforms, and had modern walkie-talkies.  The police

 2     officers requested to speak to their superiors, and after a while two

 3     further men arrived.  The Muslim -- Muslim forces wanted one of the

 4     police officers to negotiate a cease-fire with Arkan.  However, they were

 5     told it was not possible.

 6             At this moment, a man named Medo appeared, and he said that he

 7     would take the officers as far as Kasaba to allow them to get home.  The

 8     police officers were mistreated at other barricades on their journey

 9     home, and after this incident, Zoran Durmic realised that the war with

10     the Muslims was inevitable.

11             On 21st of January, 1992, the Muslims ambushed a TAM truck

12     transporting workers to the Boksit mine.  Eight Serbian workers including

13     two women were killed.  Another incident followed soon after the 27th of

14     May, 1992, when the Muslims carried out an ambush of some Boksit drivers.

15     Five drivers were killed and the trucks burned.  These incidents made the

16     people in Milici uneasy.

17             After these incidents, daily attacks against Serbian villages in

18     Milici municipality were carried out.  All the Serbian villages were

19     burned to the ground and the population expelled, killed, or wounded, and

20     their property looted.

21             Zoran Durmic is not aware that the incident of 16th of May, 1992,

22     was planned or organised.  It was a place where the Muslims attacked

23     strongly and the fighting went on for several hours.

24             On 13th of July, 1995, whilst on duty, Zoran Durmic noted that a

25     large group of Muslims were being guarded by the army.  There were


Page 33848

 1     wounded men among them, and they were being treated by the medical

 2     personnel of the hospital in Milici.  Whilst they were in the area, there

 3     were no killings of Muslim captives.  They were being transported by

 4     buses away from Milici, and no one stopped these buses or removed persons

 5     from them.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Durmic, now I would like to ask you this:  The Prosecution

 8     cited my speech of the 29th of September, 1992, at the funeral of Serbs

 9     massacred in Rogosija as if that agreement incited towards hatred and

10     intolerance in Vlasenica.  Whether any events before that speech of mine

11     that had an effect on the atmosphere among the people, particularly the

12     Serb people, and for inter-ethnic relations in Milici and Vlasenica.

13     This is the end of 1992.

14        A.   Well, first, perhaps we could go back to the reading of my

15     statement.  Perhaps there's an error in the interpretation.  It says

16     "public security station," but actually it's a station sector Milici.  We

17     were a branch, station branch, in Milici that was part of the police

18     station in Vlasenica.  So until the police station in Milici was formed,

19     we carried out all the police work.

20             And then it says that on the outskirts of Zvornik, in front of

21     the police station we intercepted a large group of people --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch everything that

23     the witness said.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Durmic, I think you spoke a bit too fast for the

25     interpreters to catch up.

Page 33849

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Durmic, may I just ask you, what I read is not an exhibit.

 3     If it's correct in the statement, don't pay any attention to what I read

 4     in the summary.  If the statement is accurate, then everything is all

 5     right.

 6        A.   All right.  Very well.

 7        Q.   And do you remember my question?

 8        A.   [No interpretation]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  For the record, the Prosecution wasn't put on

11     notice of this evidence which is about to be led in relation to

12     Mr. Karadzic's speech.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may respond.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Yes.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It pertains to the associated

16     exhibit that we decided to lead live, Milici.  So we did not need to

17     provide notice.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, that's not entirely correct.  We

19     should be put on notice as to what evidence will be led from the witness

20     whether live or pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

21             JUDGE KWON:  When -- when the Defence is tendering certain

22     exhibit or is planning to tender a certain exhibit, is it obliged to tell

23     the other party the purpose of such tendering?  Probably it's -- would

24     you like to respond to what Mr. Karadzic just stated?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, he was asking the witness about his

Page 33850

 1     speech in September 1992.  Now, whatever the witness says about that

 2     speech, we have not been put on notice anywhere in the Rule 65 ter

 3     summary or in the statement of what the witness will say about that.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I understood his statement to be the reason why he's

 5     tendering 1D7018.

 6             Mr. Tieger?  You can't resist.

 7             MR TIEGER:  Well, I -- that's exactly right, Mr. President.  Not

 8     when it implicates an issue that was raised previously and then has a

 9     bearing on notice in the future.  So I simply wanted to say that it --

10     we're talking about potentially two different things.  The -- there may

11     not be a rule that says that one party is obliged to explain to the other

12     in advance the purpose of tendering a particular exhibit, but there is a

13     rule that says that the other party has to be provided with notice of the

14     facts upon which the witness will testify.  Excuse me.  Now, it may be

15     the case that sometimes the notification that a particular exhibit will

16     be tendered overlaps between the two, and so I'm not speak -- I'm not

17     pre-empting anybody speaking to this particular issue but, it continues

18     to be the case that in the face of deficient 65 ter summaries and belated

19     submission of statements - I'm not suggesting that this is one - that

20     then the Defence will advance information or elicit information from a

21     witness without any notification to the Prosecution whatsoever, thereby

22     disrupting and undermining the opportunity to prepare for cross.

23             So I'm simply saying that as before, the issue is one of whether

24     the Prosecution has been provided with sufficient notice under

25     Rule 65 ter about the facts upon which the witness will testify so that

Page 33851

 1     it may properly prepare.

 2             I apologise for not be able to resist, but it is a significant

 3     issue, one that's been raised on many occasions, and I think that's a

 4     distinction which is useful to bear in mind here.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if I may add, Your Honour, I didn't see the

 6     connection between 1D17018, which is about an incident in June and

 7     Mr. Karadzic's question which was about his speech in September, and he

 8     uses -- and he even referred to the end of 1992 in his question.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Can we hear from you, Mr. Robinson.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think the best thing to do

11     is to put the document before the witness and we'll avoid all of this

12     problem.  This was Dr. Karadzic's way of introducing the document.  I

13     think that's the problem.  The Prosecution -- for what Dr. Karadzic is

14     intending to do, which is to admit the document that was offered as an

15     associate exhibit, I don't think this raises any broader issues of notice

16     if his question is understood in that context.

17             JUDGE KWON:  If you could tell Mr. Karadzic to proceed in that

18     way, Mr. Robinson.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we call up 1D7018

20     in e-court, please.  Had this document been accepted as an associated

21     exhibit, I would have discussed it in my closing arguments.  But now I

22     would like to see what was going on in June, much earlier than September.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you please tell us what this document is, Mr. Durmic.

25        A.   This is a document which is a record of an on-site investigation

Page 33852

 1     in the village of Rupovo Brdo, the municipality of Milici, which was

 2     burned down by Muslim forces on the 10th of June, 1992.  This village was

 3     where five people were killed.  Some even had their necks cut.  And then

 4     after 21 years, three persons are registered as missing.  Unfortunately

 5     they have still not been found.  This is a father and son, Trivko and

 6     Zugic Komljanin [phoen] and Milinkovic Vlado.  This village was

 7     completely blocked for a few days and it was not possible to conduct the

 8     on-site investigation right away.

 9             I also might note that all of these victims were buried without

10     any religious rites, without any previous medical examination, so that we

11     don't have any medical documents about the injuries or wounds on the

12     bodies of those killed but on the basis of statements and their close

13     relatives we noted these.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can we look at the next page, please.  You say here

15     in the first paragraph that the whole village was burnt to the ground,

16     including the barns, the pigs, everything.

17        A.   Yes.  Everything was destroyed, the entire infrastructure of the

18     village, all the property.  The cattle was driven away, and the tractors

19     and other machinery was taken away and burned.

20        Q.   And can you tell us who the victims were?  What was their

21     profession?

22        A.   The victims were mostly -- I don't want to insult anyone, but

23     they were peasants, inhabitants of the village who lived there.  For

24     example, Zugic Koviljka, I think this old woman was 81 or 82 years old,

25     and according to testimony of those closest to her, she -- her throat was

Page 33853

 1     slashed.  And then Zugic Komljanin, who is missing, he was also an

 2     elderly person, he was over 70 years old.  He is still missing.  He was

 3     taken away from the village together with his son Trivko, and also

 4     Vlado Milinkovic.

 5        Q.   All right.  Can you please tell the Chamber this:  Who are the

 6     three persons who conducted the investigation?

 7        A.   The investigation was carried out by Danilo Djeletovic, the then

 8     inspector of the public security centre in Sarajevo, which included the

 9     security station in Milici; then Zoran Durmic, that's me; and then also

10     Dragan Savic, crime technician of the public security centre in Sarajevo.

11        Q.   And then in this last paragraph, can you please tell us the names

12     the perpetrators.  Who were these people who did this?

13        A.   The commanders of units are mentioned here, the units that

14     participated in this incident in this small village.  So it is

15     Zulfo Tursunovic, aka Tursun, and they acted from the direction of

16     Zedanjsko.  Then Ibrahim Ademovic, known as Cakura, his unit came from

17     the direction of Djile.  The village of Djile is neighbouring the village

18     to Rupovo Brdo.  They knew each other.  Becir Mekanic came from the area

19     of Stedra, to the north of the village.  And then Fadil Turkovic, who was

20     the former commander of the public security station from Vlasenica, his

21     unit came from the direction of Kupusna.  And let me just say that

22     Kupusna lies in the direction of Zepa.  According to some information or

23     some statements of the people from his unit, it was learned that a month

24     before that, he went to the area of Zepa, or Podzeplje to be more

25     precise, and then he brought 20 well-trained soldiers.  That was what he

Page 33854

 1     told them.  And then also we have Mujo Bektic from Podgaj, this is the

 2     municipality of Srebrenica, because we -- the border between Milici and

 3     Srebrenica was there.  His unit came from the direction of Zutica.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And did you learn that on the same day at the same

 5     time, and how many similar incidents occurred before September 1992 in

 6     the area that was covered by your station, Milici and Vlasenica?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I'm not sure if we need that detailed

 9     evidence.  Shall we move on.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you just tell us how this reflected on the general situation

13     in that area?  What effect did it have on the Serbian people, on the

14     fighters?

15        A.   Well, how could it affect them?  You can see that from these

16     documents when they slashed the throat of their mother, killed their

17     brother, take away the father who has not been found for the past

18     22 years.  Then there were ambushes in Zutica where eight people were

19     killed.  In my translation, we got that this was the Boksit mine, but

20     this was the village between Ravan.  There were children, women, elderly

21     people, and even though they were killed, explosives were thrown on that

22     truck.  The bodies were massacred.  This was terrible.

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Durmic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we accept -- can we tender this

25     document now, Your Honours?

Page 33855

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would still object on the basis

 3     of relevance to the charges in the indictment.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Your Honour, unless we're going to pretend

 6     that this was not a civil war, I don't see how the Prosecution can expect

 7     the trial to proceed with only attacks against Muslims and no evidence of

 8     what the Muslims did to the Serbs.  I think it's highly relevant.  It's

 9     not tu quoque evidence.  It explains the events for which Mr. Karadzic is

10     charged with planning, instigating and executing.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, basically the document has been

12     discussed at length with the witness, which is in the transcript.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will receive it.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2949, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.  [Interpretation] Thank you,

17     Excellencies.  I don't have any questions for this witness at this point.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Durmic, your evidence in chief in this case has

19     been admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony, as you have

20     noted.  You will now be cross-examined by the representative of the

21     Office of the Prosecutor.

22             Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If I can just have one

24     moment.

25                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:


Page 33856

 1        Q.   Mr. Durmic, the Milici branch station that you refer to became a

 2     public security station in early May 1992; correct?

 3        A.   I'm not sure that this was in early May.  I think it was sometime

 4     in mid-May, because the public security station was formed in the area of

 5     the municipality of Milici pursuant to a decision by the minister of the

 6     interior.  In any case, it was the month of May.

 7        Q.   The chief of police, Rade Bjelanovic moved from being the chief

 8     the Vlasenica SJB to being the chief of the SJB Milici.

 9        A.   No.  I think you've not got it quite right.  The late

10     Mr. Bjelanovic was the chief of the public security station in Vlasenica.

11     Part of that station, the Vlasenica station, we had the branch station in

12     Milici.  Later by forming the public security station in Milici,

13     Mr. Milanovic [as interpreted] then transferred to become the chief of

14     the public security station in Milici.  In my interpretation I'm getting

15     the security services centre, and I think that's a bigger branch.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the last exchange

17     between the accused and the witness.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, I think there's been -- I think there's

19     been a mistranslation.

20             JUDGE KWON:  No, just please do not overlap.  Do not overlap.

21     Can we do without the exchange between Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Durmic which

22     was lost in their entirety because of overlapping?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All I said was that in the

24     transcript it was correct, but the oral interpretation was the CSB, and

25     this is what confused the witness.

Page 33857

 1             JUDGE KWON:  So shall we start again.  Yes, I leave it to you,

 2     Ms. Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 4        Q.   Mr. Durmic, what -- what I said a moment ago was that the chief

 5     of the police, Rade Bjelanovic, moved from being the chief of the

 6     Vlasenica SJB, that is, the public security station, to become the chief

 7     of the SJB in Milici.  That's correct, isn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And there were approximately 40 police working at SJB Milici?

10        A.   Well, we could never establish the exact number.  It changed

11     every day according to the situation, the organisation of the police, the

12     reserves of the police.  This is something that was approved through the

13     department for Territorial Defence, the Territorial Defence Staff.  So

14     sometimes we would have 30 people, then we would have to let five go,

15     then we would have 40, and we would release 10 for the needs of the army.

16     So it was manned according to the needs and its duties in the area that

17     it could serve, that it could carry out.  This is for the needs of the

18     people, if you understand me correctly.

19        Q.   And there was a Special Police Unit within the SJB at Milici,

20     wasn't there?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Who was the commander of that Special Police Unit?

23        A.   Again, we didn't understand each other.  We did not have

24     Special Police.  Milici did not have Special Police.  They had a public

25     security station Milici, which as part of its composition had certain

Page 33858

 1     services, service of Milici dealing with public law and order, crime

 2     prevention.  They had the criminal technical service.  Then it had the

 3     administrative and legal affairs sector that dealt with different

 4     documents required by the citizens, driver's licences, passports, and so

 5     on.  The special unit was at the level of the MUP.  There wasn't one at

 6     the station.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have 65 ter number 24604, please.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we are waiting, can we ask to

 9     be told or notified about the documents that are going to be used in the

10     cross-examination.  We still have not received this notification.

11                           [Prosecution and Case Manager confer]

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  There was a

13     miscommunication.  It's coming right now.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Durmic, you see --

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry.

19        Q.   Mr. Durmic, you see in front of you a list of the Milici SJB

20     employees for July 1995, and we see a list of -- of 37 names.

21        A.   Yes.  It's quite small.  Okay.  Now it's been enlarged.  Let me

22     see.  This is the list of those employed at the SJB at the time.

23        Q.   Yes.  And -- and if you're looking at the names there, was --

24     were these policemen working in the SJB Milici in -- in the beginning of

25     1992 when the station, the SJB, was first formed?

Page 33859

 1        A.   No.  No.  I don't know if I could take six or seven of these

 2     people from this list who were there in 1992.  I said earlier that it was

 3     all adapted to the situation.  It would be increased or decreased.  This

 4     is 1995, now, so the station was already functioning, had certain

 5     services.  The number of policemen was engaged according to the existing

 6     classification.

 7        Q.   So, of course, the chief would be different because it's

 8     Rade Bjelanovic as opposed to Todor Boskovic, but if you go through the

 9     list of those names, could you just tell me the numbers of the people in

10     the SJB who were working there in 1992?  You don't have to say the names,

11     you can just say the numbers.

12        A.   Well, you just have to give me a little time to go over this.

13             From what I remember, perhaps it was 15 or 16 people from this

14     list.

15        Q.   Okay.  For example -- for example, number 6, do you recognise

16     that name?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And he was working there in 1992?

19        A.   He was working there from the 1980s already, I believe.

20        Q.   And number 27, for example?

21        A.   I think that he completed high school, perhaps that he started

22     working in 1991, just before the war, and I think he was a ...

23        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Durmic.

24        A.   He was an intern.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to admit that document.

Page 33860

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6126, Your Honours.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   In your statement, you -- in paragraphs 30 to 32, you talk about

 6     the Zaklopaca incident, and you said that in paragraph 30, that on the

 7     day of the Zaklopaca massacre you were on the road section leading to the

 8     bauxite mine.  How many were in this patrol with you?

 9        A.   There's an error again in the interpretation.  I did not say at

10     the crossroads, but I said that we were on the section.  I meant a zone

11     along the road of -- the regional road from Milici-Rudnik or

12     Milici-Skelani where this road was captured by Muslim paramilitary units,

13     because the territorials, the TO, tried to deblock that, and we from the

14     police, of course, were supposed to place that under control, or we were

15     supposed to secure that area that was freed.

16        Q.   Mr. Durmic, my question was a simple one.  How many people were

17     on patrol with you that day when you said you were on the road section?

18        A.   I'm trying to explain to you that at the present wasn't a patrol

19     but that it was basically the entire reserve force in the field.  In the

20     police station, there was only the duty service and perhaps a few people

21     to secure the building and maybe two or three in the crime prevention

22     department.  The rest were up there on the road, because there was a

23     threat of the road being blocked and the mine being taken over.  So the

24     entire area would be paralysed.  It wasn't a simple patrol which would

25     comprise, two, three, or up to five policemen, but this in turn included

Page 33861

 1     basically all of the members.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 00567.

 3        Q.   Mr. Durmic, this is a daily -- or this is a report of -- a duty

 4     report from Milan Bacic, who was on duty on the 16th of May, 1992, where

 5     he says he took over duty at 7.00 a.m. in the morning, and he says here

 6     that all personnel were engaged in "ciscenje terena" operation.

 7        A.   He probably believed it to be a mopping up operation.  I'm trying

 8     to tell you that we were supposed to provide security along the road

 9     which had been deblocked by the territorials.  So we assumed positions.

10     It -- the road went through the valley in the direction of the mine and

11     certain points needed to be secured, because people might be killed

12     otherwise.  Before the war they would stop vehicles and let people go on

13     foot and so on and so forth.  They would also stop trucks and cars.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we have 65 ter number 00568.

15        Q.   Mr. Durmic, again another report by Milan Bacic to the SJB

16     commander, and again it says that on the 16th of May, the situation was

17     regular and it was the same when he passed on the duty to the next person

18     at 2300 hours, and again he said all personnel were engaged in a

19     "ciscenje terena," cleaning operation.  So again this -- and it says all

20     personnel were engaged.  It makes no reference to -- specifically to the

21     area where you were, talking simply about all SJB personnel engaged on

22     the ground in a cleaning up operation.

23        A.   I see here two different reports for the same date signed by the

24     same person.  The first report is different from this one in terms of

25     sequence of reporting.

Page 33862

 1             In this report, it says that there were no parties to attend to

 2     during the duty shift, and in the other one the report is a different

 3     matter.  So it's the same day, the same person, and two different

 4     reports.

 5        Q.   Yes.  You can see that on the first one it does say no parties

 6     came during duty, and it also says that on the second report, just in a

 7     different order.  The first report, 00567, talks about him taking over

 8     duty at 7.00 in the morning.  The later report, 00568, refers to him

 9     passing on the duty at 2300 in the evening.  So clearly it's two

10     different reports written at two different times of the day, is it not?

11        A.   I don't know.  I'm unaware of such practice of writing two

12     reports when assuming duty and being relieved of duty.  Usually reports

13     are drafted at the end of one's duty, or perhaps the previous person

14     submits a report on his duty before handing over.  So it's usually at the

15     end of the shift.  I don't see why this person would draft two reports.

16        Q.   But you do know this Milan Bacic, don't you?

17        A.   I barely knew him.  I think they live somewhere in Sweden.  He

18     was with us for maybe a month and then he left.  I didn't know him very

19     well.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender those two

21     exhibits.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit them.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibits P6127 and P6128, respectively,

25     Your Honours.

Page 33863

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 2        Q.   Mr. Bacic -- Mr. Durmic, is it your evidence that it was the JNA

 3     who took part in the attack on the inhabitants of the village of

 4     Zaklopaca on the 16th of May, 1992, as it was passing through Milici?

 5     Yes -- yes or no?

 6        A.   I can't say anything, because I didn't see it.  I don't have any

 7     information.  I can only presume, because on the 15th of May, there was

 8     the famous -- or infamous Tuzla column incident where the column was cut

 9     off.  And there is a possibility that the tail, the end of the column was

10     separated, and then they tried to turn back, and then there is the

11     possibility --

12        Q.   Mr. Durmic, in relation to this incident, as you say, you -- it's

13     your evidence that you weren't there and that you heard about this from

14     someone else; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  I heard about it only in the evening when we returned from

16     the field that I explained to you a moment ago.  My workmate was killed,

17     and later in the evening I went to visit his family, and many people were

18     in attendance, in mourning.  There was some rumour that something had

19     taken place, but at that point in time I didn't pay much attention to it.

20     That was the story that went around.  That's the information I have.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Mr. Durmic.

22             Your Honour, I have no further questions.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any

24     re-examination?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one topic, Your Excellency.


Page 33864

 1     Can we see P6126.  It has been admitted a moment ago.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Durmic, you made a distinction between

 4     employees and policemen.  What does it mean?  Who is a policemen, and who

 5     are the employees?

 6        A.   No.  No.  There was a misunderstanding.  The list of employees is

 7     from 1995.  What I said was not that -- not all of these people were

 8     there in 1992.  So by visual inspection, I said that maybe some 15 of

 9     them were there from the start in the police station.

10        Q.   Basically I wanted you to clear something up for us.  Are all of

11     these men policemen or are some of them administrative clerks?

12        A.   No, no.  At the top there is the chief, and then there is the

13     secretary, the department for vehicle registration, for the issuing of

14     IDs and other documents.  There's the department in charge of cleaning.

15     So many of these people are not authorised officials.  They're not

16     policemen.

17             MR. KARADZIC:  [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. Durmic.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Well, then that concludes your evidence, Mr. Durmic.

19     I thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to

20     go.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23             JUDGE KWON:  I take it the next witness is ready.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, he is.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, perhaps we could take an early


Page 33865

 1     break so that we could change seating, because Ms. Gustafson is leading

 2     the next witness.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  She hasn't been in?  Is she hiding?  No.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  She's coming.  She's on her way, Your Honour.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Then we'll have two 15 minutes' break before the

 6     lunch break.  We'll see how it evolves.  We'll take a break for

 7     15 minutes now.  Yes, just before that, yes, Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, I didn't know what was more or less

 9     convenient, Mr. President, but I'm sure Ms. Gustafson is on her way.  If

10     you just want to take a couple minutes, I'm sure we could set up.  I

11     don't want to create any trouble for the Court --

12             JUDGE KWON:  That's what I wanted too but -- yes.

13             MR TIEGER:  I'm sure it'll be fine.

14             JUDGE KWON:  This time we'll take a 15-minute break.  We'll

15     resume at 10.32 a.m.

16                           --- Recess taken at 10.16 a.m.

17                           --- On resuming at 10.34 a.m.

18                           [The witness entered court]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

20     please.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

22     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Veselinovic.  Please make yourself

24     comfortable.

25                           WITNESS:  SVETO VESELINOVIC


Page 33866

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 4                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 5        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Veselinovic.

 6        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 7        Q.   I have to remind us both to speak slowly and to put pauses

 8     between your question -- between our questions and answers so as to have

 9     everything reflected in the transcript.

10             Did you provide a statement to my Defence team?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D7230 in e-court.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   The statement you see on the screen, is it the one you gave to

16     the Defence team?

17        A.   Yes, it is.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read it and signed it?

19        A.   Yes.  I've read it and signed it.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page, please,

22     in order to see the signature and identify it.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Can you confirm that it is your signature?

25        A.   Yes, I can.

Page 33867

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement accurately and entirely convey

 2     what you shared with the Defence team?

 3        A.   Yes, it does.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

 5     would your answers be essentially the same as we can find them in the

 6     statement?

 7        A.   Yes, they would.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I seek to tender

10     the 92 ter package, and I will have to lead a few documents live with the

11     witness.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we're tendering eight associated

14     exhibits, and we would ask that each of them be added to the 65 ter list

15     as we didn't have -- had not interviewed the witness at the time we

16     prepared that list.  The first one is 1D12044.  The second, 1D12045.  The

17     third, 1D12046.  The fourth, 1D048.  The fifth, 1D12049.  The sixth,

18     1D12053.  The seventh, 1D12054.  And the eighth, 1D12055.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Ms. Gustafson?

20             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, Your Honours.  If I understand correctly,

21     neither of the videos are being tendered, so we had an objection to one

22     of the videos, but I understand from what was just said that the videos

23     aren't being tendered.

24             I understand 1D12045 and 1D12054 are now the only exhibits being

25     tendered for which there is no translation, and those are the ones as we


Page 33868

 1     indicated in our e-mail yesterday that should be led live.  Other than

 2     that there are no objections.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  When I checked this morning there were

 4     translations for those two, but if the Chamber hasn't had a chance to

 5     look at them we can pass them, but there were translations this

 6     morning --

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, I should clarify.  There were -- I agree

 8     there are translations but the translations that are in e-court are

 9     translations of the previous documents that were at least in large part

10     illegible.  So the translations now don't match the contents of the newly

11     provided documents.  So there is still a translation issue for those two

12     documents.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Very well.  If those two documents

14     are to be led live, we'll admit the Rule 92 ter statement as well as

15     other six associated exhibits.

16             We will give the number for the statement.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  That's Exhibit D2950, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give the numbers for the other associated

19     exhibits in lump sum from -- six numbers altogether.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  Those will be Exhibits D2951

21     through to Exhibit D2956 respectively.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  In the order of the Rule 65 ter numbers.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'd like to read out a

Page 33869

 1     summary of Mr. Veselinovic's statement in the English language.

 2             [In English] Sveto Veselinovic was the president of the SDS

 3     Municipal Board in Rogatica from 1990, when it was founded, to

 4     March 1992.  After the first multi-party elections, he was elected a

 5     member of the municipal Executive Committee.  Just before the war, he was

 6     chief of the municipal public revenue administration.  In May 1992, he

 7     became a member of the Crisis Staff in Rogatica.  In September 1992, he

 8     was appointed head of income administration by the president of the

 9     Executive Committee of Rogatica.  He remained in that position until the

10     end of 1993, when he moved to the Ministry of Trade to become a republic

11     financial inspector.

12             Sveto Veselinovic assisted with the preparations for the founding

13     assembly of the SDS in Rogatica municipality, which was also attended by

14     representatives of the SDA Muslim party.  Up until the second half of the

15     1991, the political situation in BH was cordial, co-operation was

16     encouraged, and the break-up of Yugoslavia and one-track policies

17     criticised.

18             Following the multi-party elections, the departments in local

19     government and leading functions in public institutions were divided up

20     very quickly.  However, it became clear to Sveto Veselinovic that the SDA

21     abandoned its declared policy and began to focus their activities on the

22     secession of B and H from Yugoslavia.

23             The first problem in Rogatica began when the division of

24     functions agreed on 4th of January, 1991, was to be implemented because

25     for certain functions the approval of the republican organs was

Page 33870

 1     necessary.  This meant that agreements reached in the municipality were

 2     abandoned.  At this the Serbs organised a protest on the square near the

 3     municipal building.  The SDA assisted in resolving this matter.  However,

 4     under pressure from the SDA central office the Rogatica SDA leadership

 5     became less cooperative and changed their position, adopting the policy

 6     for the creation of a unitary independent Bosnia.

 7             Sveto Veselinovic considers that the media placed themselves in

 8     the service of the SDA Muslim party, and therefore the SDS had less room

 9     to express their views publicly.  Therefore, announcements were made in

10     an attempt to inform the public that the Muslim authorities were

11     departing from their mandate and failing to implement the policies they

12     initially promoted.

13             Sveto Veselinovic considers that tension in Rogatica municipality

14     reached its climax during the mobilisation of the JNA unit on

15     30th of June, 1991.  A number of Muslims boycotted the mobilisation, and

16     for those that did not boycott the SDA from Rogatica -- the SDA from

17     Rogatica sent buses to the place where the unit had been mobilised and

18     returned all the Muslims home.  To fill the gap left by the Muslims,

19     Serbs were called up to preserve the common state.  After this, the

20     Muslims attacked the JNA even more, saying it was a mono-ethnic army.

21     However, Sveto Veselinovic considers that this was caused by the SDA

22     themselves.

23             Throughout 1991, the tensions grew and the Muslims were being

24     armed en masse.  Due to his position, Sveto Veselinovic had contact with

25     a number of Muslims, and on one occasion, Hasan Sehic showed him a pistol

Page 33871

 1     that he had received as a member of the SDA Main Board.  He told

 2     Sveto Veselinovic that other members had also received these pistols.

 3             Due to the growing mistrust, villages -- village guards were

 4     organised in late 1991, and Sveto Veselinovic was aware that Muslims had

 5     also organised similar guards.  The SDS made many efforts to avoid

 6     clashes, and therefore they agreed to divide the municipality to prevent

 7     the large-scale conflicts.  However, in March 1992, a Serbian home was

 8     attacked.  Sveto Veselinovic suspected it was done to intimidate the

 9     Serbian people.  This sparked the locals to form a Territorial Defence to

10     protect against Muslim attacks.

11             In order to preserve peace and involve as many people as

12     possible, a letter was sent out to prominent people who held various

13     offices, inviting them to join the Crisis Staff.  The staff was a large

14     body whose main tasks were to negotiate on the delineation of the

15     municipality's territory and the division of power.  Further, during the

16     war, the work of the SDS was frozen, and the party did not engage in any

17     activities until just before the end of the war.

18             The murder of the Serb Drazenko Mihajlovic, a Serb policeman, in

19     May 1992, suspended all efforts regarding any further negotiations on

20     securing peace.  After this incident, larger-scale conflicts broke out

21     and refugees appeared on both sides.  On the 30th of May, 1992, a

22     commission was formed to accommodate and help the refugees.  The refugees

23     were accommodated in a controlled and organised manner in abandoned

24     Muslim and Serb apartments and houses.  Notices were visibly placed on

25     all the doors stating that moving in without the commission's


Page 33872

 1     authorisation or decision was prohibited.

 2             At this time, due to the growing insecurity in the town and

 3     shooting in the streets, both Serbs and Muslims left the town and moved

 4     to its suburbs and further away.  Transport was organised for Serbian

 5     families and at the same time, more refugees were arriving.

 6     Sveto Veselinovic was aware that a number of Serbs and Muslims threatened

 7     by danger in the town moved into a building of the secondary school

 8     centre.  From there they were sent to their desired locations.

 9             When Sveto Veselinovic entered Rogatica after fighting had

10     occurred and was shocked by what he saw as the town had been entirely

11     devastated, many Serbian houses and apartments had been torched and

12     reduced to their foundations.

13             Sveto Veselinovic remembers that Dr. Karadzic was in Rogatica on

14     2nd of August, 1991, during an important religious holiday and stayed one

15     night because he was on a trip to Uzice in Serbia.  He also remembers

16     that next visit to Rogatica was in autumn 1993, when Karadzic visited the

17     leadership.

18             [Interpretation] That will be the summary.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Now I would like to put to you a few questions about the

21     documents that you kindly made available to us.  First of all, shall I

22     address you as Dr. Veselinovic, because you have a Ph.D., don't you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  In one of the paragraphs here, you dealt with the

25     division of power just after the elections.

Page 33873

 1        A.   Yes.  That's paragraph 5.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D12040 is the document I would

 3     like to call up in e-court.  1D12040.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you tell us, what is this record?  What is the subject

 6     matter?

 7        A.   This is the record from the meeting of commissions for

 8     inter-party co-operation between the Serbian Democratic Party and the

 9     Party of Democratic Action concerning the division of power in Rogatica

10     municipality.  This record lists exhaustively all the leading positions

11     that were to be divided up between two parties who had the elections, and

12     at the end we find the signatures of all those who attended the meeting,

13     namely, seven members of the SDS and seven members of the SDA.  The

14     record was done on the 4th of January, 1991, and we drafted it in less

15     than two hours.  So everything was very expeditiously agreed in this

16     municipality.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next page, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Did you take part in these talks?

21        A.   Yes.  I'm one of the signatories.

22        Q.   What does this last sentence mean?

23        A.   The last sentence says that 27 mandates were allocated to the SDA

24     in this division.  I can't see the --

25        Q.   We'll see it on the next page.  And their mandates included

Page 33874

 1     president of the municipality as the most senior position.

 2        A.   Correct.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Again, last sentence.

 6        A.   The Serbian Democratic Party got a total of 21 mandates in line

 7     with the structure of the votes won we divided the power.

 8        Q.   And what was the most important position for the SDS?

 9        A.   Chairman of the Executive Board.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the last page, please.

12     Yes, last page.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Are these the participants in the talks?

15        A.   Yes.  These are the signatures.  On the left are those from the

16     SDA.  At the very bottom is the signature of the president of their

17     party.  And on the right-hand side we see the signatures of the

18     participants from the Serbian Democratic Party, and at the bottom is my

19     signature as president of the SDS.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be MFI'd, please.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI'd D2957, Your Honours.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You mentioned it in the statement, but can you tell us, how did

25     the first disagreements arise erasing this idyll from just after the

Page 33875

 1     elections?

 2        A.   The first disagreements broke out after -- about the

 3     implementation of this agreement concerning certain positions.  Approval

 4     from republic organs had to be obtained, such as the position of chief of

 5     the police station and the commander of the police station in Rogatica.

 6     The ministry of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina sent their approval for a

 7     Muslim to be appointed chief of the police station, but they did not send

 8     approval for a Serb to be appointed commander of the police station.

 9     That is why we organised the protest before the building of the

10     Municipal Assembly where I read out our demand that our representative be

11     appointed to his post as well.  And the local Muslims did not have any

12     problem with our protest.  Even our Muslim friend who worked for the MUP

13     promised his help, wrote directly to the republic MUP and ensured that

14     both appointments were approved.  This was covered by the media, and I

15     believe on the 16th of May, 1991, a story appeared in the newspaper

16     "Oslobodjenje."

17        Q.   Thank you.  Is there anything in the developments at the level of

18     Yugoslavia that perhaps contributed to rising tensions?

19        A.   Certainly.  As things got more and more complicated at the level

20     of Yugoslavia, the local Muslims appeared less and less cooperative,

21     adhered less and less to the agreements we had reached, and began obeying

22     instructions from the SDA head office.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D12047, please.

25     1D12047.

Page 33876

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This is a press release you made on behalf of the Regional Board

 3     of SDS for Romanija, dated 11 May 1991.  Can you tell us what is the gist

 4     of this press release?

 5        A.   The events unfolding on the territory of Yugoslavia, including

 6     Bosnia and Herzegovina, created an increasing rift between the Muslim

 7     people and the Serbian people and stoked hatred on the part of Muslims

 8     and Croats towards Serbs.  This is about tying the Croatian and Muslim

 9     flags into an unbreakable knot, stopping the JNA column at Siroki Brijeg

10     and preventing them from carrying out their military drills.  This also

11     contains a critique of Sarajevo media who were more and more biased in

12     favour of Muslims, and information that the Serbs tried to put out in the

13     media was stopped, and even this press release could not be placed in

14     their media.  We could only publish it in our local media and the local

15     radio Sokolac.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be MFI'd, please.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI 2958, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You were also a member of the Crisis Staff in Rogatica

22     municipality; correct?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Was that a one-party Crisis Staff or was it a Crisis Staff that

25     was a body of authority?

Page 33877

 1        A.   First of all, we created a Crisis Staff within the party that was

 2     intended to inform our central party authorities about all that was going

 3     on in our municipality.  However, when problems escalated to such an

 4     extent that we, representatives of the Serbian Democratic Party, became

 5     unable to deal with them on our own, or better to say we did not have the

 6     mandate from the SDS leadership to take our people to war, we had to

 7     invite all the prominent Serbs in Rogatica who were not SDS members but

 8     had been in leading positions in business, in the economy, et cetera,

 9     inviting them to join a new Crisis Staff of Rogatica that would not be a

10     mono-party unit but would be made up of prominent people from all over

11     Rogatica.  Such a staff was indeed established on the 8th of April, 1992,

12     and Mr. Milorad Sokolovic was appointed chairman of this Crisis Staff of

13     which I was a member.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see 1D12050, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Dr. Veselinovic, were you elected immediately or a bit later?

17        A.   Mr. President, in your introduction, you mentioned that two

18     grenades were thrown at a Serb house in Borike.  That house belonged to

19     Rajko Kusic, a member of our SDS.  When his house was bombed, he withdrew

20     to Borike.  He linked up the, until then, disorganised local guards, and

21     he formed the Territorial Defence under the law that said that a local

22     commune had the right to form its own Territorial Defence in case of an

23     immediate threat of war.

24             Rajko Kusic and I continued to work for preserving peace with the

25     Muslim side.  It was our hope that we will achieve peace, because

Page 33878

 1     Izetbegovic had signed the Cutileiro Plan, otherwise known as the

 2     Lisbon Agreement, but when Alija Izetbegovic withdrew his signature, the

 3     Territorial Defence at Borike believed that further negotiations were

 4     pointless.  They had information that Muslims were very hastily preparing

 5     for war and might attack at any minute.  That attack would involve

 6     liquidating all prominent Serbs in the municipality in one night.

 7             Mr. Kusic said he did not want to bear responsibility if that

 8     happened, if all the Serbs were killed, and he said that we had to attack

 9     them first.  I, Tomislav Batinic, and Mr. Ujic did not agree.  We thought

10     that peace had no alternative and that we had no mandate to take the

11     Serbian people to war.  That evening, the three of us resigned on all our

12     positions in the Serb Democratic Party.

13             The next day I spoke to Kusic, I proposed to him to invite all

14     the Serbs from the territory of the municipality, involve them in our

15     joint work and form a new Crisis Staff at the level of the municipality.

16     Kusic agreed.  The next day I invited all those people, talked to them.

17     They agreed, but they required that their appointments be verified by

18     some authority.  We called up the -- we convened the Municipal Board of

19     the party, and their appointments were verified.

20             I personally was not quite happy, though.  In order to prove to

21     myself and to the Serbian people that I did not care for a high position

22     at any cost, and I don't want to see other people get killed under my bad

23     command, I myself put on a uniform and joined a JNA unit that had been

24     formed in -- sorry, a Territorial Defence unit that had been formed at

25     Sjemec.

Page 33879

 1        Q.   I didn't want you to repeat what you said in the statement.  I'm

 2     just asking about this new Crisis Staff after your resignations.  On the

 3     21st of May, as we see here, you were mobilised onto the Crisis Staff.

 4     Can you read this out, when you were mobilised?  You cannot on the screen

 5     but I can see it on paper.  Who signed this and from what party is this

 6     person?

 7        A.   I received a summons when I was in the unit of the JNA.  I

 8     received a summons that I was mobilised and deployed to the Crisis Staff

 9     and that I should immediately report to the Crisis Staff.  The signature

10     of the decision that I was issued is that of the president of the

11     Crisis Staff, Mile Sokolovic, who was appointed on the 8th of April as

12     president of the Crisis Staff.  He's not from the Serbian Democratic

13     Party.  I think he's from the Democratic Alliance, that party.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Line 20, page 40, instead of "Rajko Kusic and myself

15     continued, we remained in Rogatica," I think that you said that it was

16     you and Mile Ujic and Tomislav Batinic who stayed; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, that is correct.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

20     document, please.  I would like it MFI'd, please.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I just note that there is a more legible version

23     of this document that we were provided, but it appears that that more

24     legible version is not in e-court yet.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Together with English translation?

Page 33880

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  There is no English translation.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If we have more legible one, could you replace

 3     it later.  Yes.  We'll mark it for identification.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D2959, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Were you dealing with any other aspects of the crisis or problems

 8     in the Rogatica municipality?  Were you in any ad hoc bodies besides your

 9     regular work duties?

10        A.   My specific task in the Crisis Staff was initially to deal with

11     organisation, reception, and accommodation of refugees.  After Rogatica

12     was liberated, I was charged with going into the town with a group of

13     retired carpenters to protect the town from break-ins and robberies,

14     which means that I entered the town first immediately after the

15     liberators, and since I had a camera with me, I recorded the situation as

16     I found it in that town.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Regarding the refugees, could we

19     look at 1D12051, please, in e-court.  12051.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Could you please tell us what this document is.

22        A.   This document was issued by the Crisis Staff.  It's a decision on

23     forming a commission for refugees and for resolving the matter of their

24     accommodation.  I was the president of that commission, and it was signed

25     by the president of the Crisis Staff, Mile Sokolovic.

Page 33881

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to tender

 2     this, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D2960, Your Honours.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Were you later appointed to a leadership post in the

 8     municipality?

 9        A.   When there was no longer any need for the Crisis Staff, the

10     Executive Board was formed and I became a member of the Executive Board,

11     and my specific assignment was to be the secretary of the Secretariat for

12     General Administration and for the finance administration or revenue.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 12054 now, please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Dr. Veselinovic, what is this document about?

17        A.   This is a document that was issued by the Executive Board of the

18     municipality of Rogatica.  It is a decision on assignment to work duty

19     where I am assigned to work in the Executive Board of the municipality of

20     Rogatica, and I was assigned to the Executive Board and also acting

21     director of the revenue administration, and it was signed --

22        Q.   And where do you know that this was the Executive Board?

23        A.   It states:

24             "On the basis of Article 7, item 2 of the regulation or

25     organising and executing work duty Official Gazette of the Serbian

Page 33882

 1     Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina," then it says, "the president of the

 2     Executive Board adopts the following decision."

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we tender this document,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D2961, Your Honours.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Other than the commission for the accommodation of refugees, was

10     there any other commission charged with assisting the refugees, and did

11     you play any role in any commission if there was such a commission?

12        A.   The first document that you showed me was the decision appointing

13     me as the president of the commission, which was issued before we

14     received the Official Gazette notifying us about the adoption of the Law

15     on Refugees.  Then there was a document issued pursuant to the new law as

16     well as a document appointing me commissioner for refugees for direct

17     co-operation and contacts with the republican commissioner for refugees.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D12052, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   What is this document?  Who issued it?

22        A.   This document was issued by the Serbian municipality of Rogatica,

23     Executive Board.  It's a decision on forming a commission for assistance

24     to refugees.  Again I was appointed president of that commission.  It's a

25     new body that issued a new decision in accordance with the law as

Page 33883

 1     published in the Official Gazette of the Serbian people of Bosnia and

 2     Herzegovina, number 792, the Executive Board of the Serbian municipality

 3     of Rogatica, and it had to do with assisting refugees.  It was signed by

 4     the president, Milorad Sokolovic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to tender

 6     this document, please.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Again we'll mark it for identification.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D2962, Your Honours.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Dr. Veselinovic, you mentioned today in your testimony, as well

12     as in your statement, in paragraph 18, that you were the first one to

13     enter Rogatica after it was liberated.  When did you enter Rogatica, and

14     under whose control was it before that or up until then?

15        A.   The centre of the town was under the control of the Muslim

16     forces.  After combat and after Rogatica was freed by Serbian forces - I

17     don't know the exact date when it was finally liberated, but it was

18     sometime in July - as member of these commissions and the Presidency

19     entrusted with care for refugees and security and safety of abandoned

20     property on behalf of the Crisis Staff or the Executive Board at the

21     time, I entered the town intending to record how I found it and to form a

22     group in order to protect the abandoned properties from robberies and

23     theft.  So this was maybe some five or six days after the final

24     liberation when units of the Serbian Army had already withdrawn from

25     Rogatica, leaving just some individual guards.  And the population was

Page 33884

 1     still not permitted to enter the town.

 2        Q.   Now I would like to ask you to give us your comments on the video

 3     footage that you made at the time.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D7229, please, and

 5     then I will give you the counter number.  So 1D7229, please.  The first

 6     clip is from 1 minute 20 seconds to 1 minute 37 seconds.  That's the

 7     first clip.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   And whenever you think it's appropriate, could you please explain

10     to the Trial Chamber what it is that we are seeing.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we play the footage, please,

12     from 1:20 to 1:37, please.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In this footage we're going to see

15     what the destroyed town looks like, broken shop windows, the goods in the

16     shops looted, burned-out storefronts, the town completely destroyed and

17     devastated.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 12:29 to 12:34,

19     please.  That would be the timer.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We can see a knocked-down and

22     burned house belonging to my wife's family.  Please take note of the

23     grass around the house, meaning that the burning is not something that

24     was a result of the combat, but it was something that occurred a month

25     before that, meaning that the house was torched immediately after the

Page 33885

 1     Serbs left it, left the inner city, the centre.  All the houses belonging

 2     to Serbs and a good part of the apartments belonging to them were burned.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 16:32 up to

 4     17:00.  16:32 to 17:00, please.  This is the next clip.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What we see in this footage is an

 7     abandoned machine-gun nest abandoned of the Muslim forces abandoned when

 8     they left the town.  This machine-gun nest is located in the area of the

 9     upper town on top of a building and it faced the nearby local hill where

10     the Serbian settlements were.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Whose machine-gun nest is it?  It's not recorded in the

13     transcript.

14        A.   It's a Muslim machine-gun nest at the top of a building, and they

15     abandoned it when they were pulling out.  They were probably withdrawing

16     very quickly, and it was difficult for them to take the machine-gun down

17     from the top of the building to take it with them.

18        Q.   And what do you see on these roofs that we see in front of the

19     building, this first roof, the closest one?

20        A.   Well, you can see the broken roof tiles, partially destroyed

21     roofs.

22        Q.   Thank you.  And what were the buildings that they used or

23     facilities in order to place machine-gun nests there?

24        A.   Besides this one, there is another one that we're going to see.

25     They used predominantly tall buildings, tall positions from where they

Page 33886

 1     could see the entire town, the lower and upper parts of the town where

 2     the Serbs were.  And we can include their mosques and the minarets of the

 3     mosques among those tall buildings from which sniper action was also

 4     recorded.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 19:26 to 20:15

 6     on the counter.  19:26 to 20:15.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the centre of town.  The

 9     building that you see is where my brother Lazar had his apartment.  There

10     were two other apartments belonging to two Serbs, Ljubo Coric and

11     Radenko Perisic.  All those apartments were burned.  What you are seeing

12     right now is a hotel.  That was also torched.  It was also set on fire as

13     they were withdrawing.

14             And then in the next shot we can see sandbags.  This is probably

15     another machine-gun nest.  No weapons were found here, but what you

16     cannot see on the footage is that on the left-hand side is the municipal

17     building and the building of the police.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last clip,

21     please, from 21:34 to 22:10.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   And if I may ask you to explain to us what we are seeing here.

24                           [Video-clip played]

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the mosque burned down in

Page 33887

 1     the town.  I don't know how it burned down, but I would like you to look

 2     at the next shot.  Only 30 metres away from the mosque is their second

 3     machine-gun nest.  Probably our artillery in an attempt to neutralise

 4     this machine-gun nest could have made an error and have hit the mosque.

 5     Just a little bit earlier, I did mention that there was talk of them also

 6     having snipers on top of their mosques too.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I would like to

 9     tender these clips into the evidence.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit those clips that we saw in one

13     number.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2963, Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now please look at 1D7228,

16     please, from 6:13 to 7:32, please.  06 -- actually, 00:03 to 53.

17     Actually, 00 to 3:53.  From the very beginning, running up to 3:53.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This footage shows the refugees

20     from Gorazde who were expelled on the 27th of August, 1992, by Muslims

21     from their hearths.  A column of these refugees came up against a Muslim

22     ambush in which 25 of them were killed and more than 80 wounded.  I would

23     like to draw your attention to the fact that none of these people have

24     weapons.  This means that these were exclusively civilians, men, women,

25     children, who were attacked by the Muslim forces.

Page 33888

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   How many of them arrived from Gorazde?

 3        A.   I don't know.  What I do know is that a bit less than 1.000 of

 4     them remained in Rogatica, because I could see that from my lists of

 5     refugees.  Most of them, though, the very next day went to Serbia via

 6     Vlasenica and Zvornik.

 7             That evening, a member of the Presidency, Ms. Biljana Plavsic,

 8     arrived.  She spoke with them and tried to have them stay in Rogatica,

 9     promising that they would be accommodated in empty houses and flats.

10     However, most of them still went to Serbia via Vlasenica and Zvornik.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Dr. Veselinovic, can you tell us what did it all mean

12     for the municipality?  In other words, how successful was the

13     municipality in dealing with the situation given the numbers of destroyed

14     homes and the lack of housing units?

15        A.   Many of those refugees who arrived in such a short time put an

16     end to our attempts to prevent the destruction of any abandoned

17     properties.  It wasn't only them but also refugees from our

18     municipalities who entered such premises and found accommodation there.

19     They also entered many houses unlawfully, taking away things that were --

20     they needed for normal life like bed linen and different items.  That was

21     because they had only the several items left which they could fit into

22     the trunks of their cars as they were leaving their homes.  You can see

23     the women and children here.

24        Q.   Thank you.  What are the age groups of these people?

25        A.   We can see in the footage that there are very small children as

Page 33889

 1     well as the elderly who are over 80 years old.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now go to 06:13 to 07:32.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This footage shows how we tried to

 6     protect the housing units.  We see the piece of paper that was placed on

 7     the door prohibiting entry.  However, the situation was simply such that

 8     we could not follow through on what we had envisaged, and many buildings

 9     and flats were entered and people took away whatever they needed such as

10     clothing items, footwear, et cetera.  Of course, those who primarily

11     wanted to loot also found fruitful ground.  You can see what an apartment

12     looks like after this turmoil in Rogatica.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This was left behind by our refugees; right?

15        A.   Well, when we were locking apartments, they were mostly tidy.

16     This means that what we can see here was left behind by not only our

17     refugees but also different kinds of dogs of war, if I can call them

18     that.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender these few

21     excerpts.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson?

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  We have no objection the latter clip.  It appears

24     to have some relevance.  The first clip depicting the gathering of Serbs

25     from Gorazde and Rogatica doesn't appear to have any relevance to the

Page 33890

 1     charges in this case, and we object on that basis.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think the testimony

 4     couldn't be understood without it, and it's clearly relevant because it

 5     shows the arrival of all the refugees.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, I'd like to make a

 8     correction.  These Serbs were not from Rogatica.  These were the Serbs

 9     from Rogatica who arrived in -- these were the Serbs from Gorazde who

10     arrived in Rogatica who had been ambushed, and it was a wholly new

11     problem for the municipality.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You could see the registration

13     plates on the cars indicating that they arrived from Gorazde.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We heard the evidence.  We'll receive it.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2964, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I have no further

17     questions for Dr. Veselinovic at this point.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Veselinovic, as you have noted, most of your

19     evidence in chief in this case has been admitted in writing in lieu of

20     your oral testimony.  Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative

21     of the Office of the Prosecutor, but before we're doing so we'll have a

22     short break.

23             But there are a couple of matters I'd like to deal with, i.e.,

24     I'd like to issue two oral rulings.

25             First thing, the Chamber is seized of the accused's request for


Page 33891

 1     state representative to be present in the courtroom with respect to

 2     Ambassador Jose Cutileiro which was filed on the 4th of February, 2013,

 3     in which the accused submits that Ambassador Cutileiro requested that two

 4     representatives of the government of Portugal be present in the courtroom

 5     during his testimony.

 6             After having reviewed the information contained in the

 7     correspondence filed by the accused on the 15th of February, 2013, the

 8     Chamber is satisfied that it is in the interests of justice to allow the

 9     two Portuguese representatives to be present in the courtroom during

10     Ambassador Cutileiro's testimony.  Accordingly, the Chamber grants the

11     request.

12             In addition, the Chamber requests the Registry to provide the

13     transcript of this ruling to Portugal.

14             Next is related to the Prosecution's request for leave to reply

15     to Karadzic's response to Prosecution motion to exclude Vasiljevic

16     evidence.

17             Since the Chamber finds that it would be in the interests of

18     justice, the Chamber hereby allows the -- grants the request.

19             We'll have a short break for 15 minutes and resume at 5 to 12.00.

20                           --- Recess taken at 11.39 a.m.

21                           --- On resuming at 11.56 a.m.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson, please proceed.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, good afternoon.

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

25        Q.   And good afternoon, Mr. Veselinovic.


Page 33892

 1        A.   Good afternoon.

 2        Q.   Now, it's clear from your evidence that you were the president --

 3     the first president of the SDS in Rogatica.  Until when exactly, to the

 4     best of your recollection, did you hold that position?

 5        A.   On the 25th of March, I submitted my resignation to all positions

 6     in the party and municipality.  However, the Municipal Assembly, which

 7     sat on the 8th of April, when the Crisis Staff was established, did not

 8     accept my resignation in entirety but, actually, they froze my status.

 9     As the war broke out, the party no longer functioned properly from the

10     level of the republic down, and following that, I was engaged solely in

11     such activities as issued to me by the president of the Crisis Staff.

12     Perhaps sometime in 1994, party life developed again, and there were

13     elections for president.  In 1998, I was again in that position for a

14     mandate of about four years, which was after the war.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correction for the transcript.  In

16     line 12, the witness said that from the republican level party life was

17     put on hold as well.  That's not what found its way in the transcript.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I think it was there, but let's continue.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:

20        Q.   Okay.  You said that you submitted your resignation from all your

21     positions in the party on the 25th of March, which I understand was 1992,

22     and then from your evidence earlier this morning, it was sometime after

23     that that you joined a TO unit.  Do you remember when exactly you joined

24     the TO unit?

25        A.   I did not join a TO unit.  I joined a JNA unit.  It was a brigade

Page 33893

 1     which was located at Han Pijesak.  One of its units, its battalion, was

 2     in Rogatica.  I joined the unit two or three days following my

 3     resignation.  In other words, I held a meeting with the Serbs from

 4     Rogatica municipality, with prominent members of the leadership past and

 5     present, I agreed on their participation in the work of the Crisis Staff

 6     and left only to join the unit.

 7        Q.   Okay.  So that was sometime towards the end of March, and then

 8     you also in your evidence earlier said that, if I understand correctly,

 9     while you were in this JNA unit, you were then summoned and mobilised to

10     work at the Crisis Staff, and you were shown a document indicating that

11     mobilisation, and it had a mobilisation date of the 21st of May, 1992.

12     And that's MFI D2959.

13             So is it correct on the 21st of May or thereabouts you left the

14     JNA unit and began working for the Crisis Staff?

15        A.   I think I left the unit even before that.  The decision arrived

16     later for organisational reasons.  The unit I was in following my

17     departure went in the direction of Sarajevo, to the area of Grbavica to

18     be more specific.

19        Q.   Okay.  Well, the Chamber's heard evidence that that unit went to

20     the area of Grbavica at the beginning of May.  So do you think you left

21     your JNA unit sometime around the beginning of May or before?

22        A.   Before the unit went to Sarajevo.

23        Q.   Okay.  So we can agree, then, that you were in this -- for the --

24     in 1992, you were only a member of this JNA unit for a brief period of

25     time between sometime in late March and sometime in early May.  Is that

Page 33894

 1     fair?

 2        A.   As of early April until late May.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'd like to move on to another topic which relates to

 4     paragraph 21 of your statement, where it says that you were shown the

 5     statement of a Muslim who listed the types of weapons he had in his

 6     village.  The prior version of your statement that we received identified

 7     this statement as that of Fehim Kapo from Kramer Selo.  And as you note

 8     in your statement, Mr. Kapo had stated that they had 40 automatic rifles,

 9     some hunting rifles and some explosives in the village.  And you say,

10     "This indicates that all the other villages were similarly armed," and

11     then you go on to complain about "evidence," and you put that term in

12     quotes in your statement, that the Muslims disseminated in the media

13     about Serbs arming and that they were under threat as result because they

14     did not have any weapons.

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could have 65 ter 1D07560, please.

16        Q.   Now, I take it from your statement that you were shown this

17     statement of Mr. Kapo's by the Defence investigators, and they were you

18     were asked to draw some conclusions about the general level of arming by

19     the Muslims based on that statement.  Is that accurate?

20        A.   This statement only confirms what we knew.  If in a village of

21     57 households and 222 inhabitants -- I have it noted down in my

22     notebooks, because I took part in the 1991 census.  This witness said

23     himself that they had 40 automatic rifles, some hunting rifles, and some

24     explosive ordnance.  If we take that data, that there were 40 automatic

25     rifles for 50 households and every household had around four members, two

Page 33895

 1     of which were children and the wife and husband, it means that any

 2     able -- any and every able-bodied man had an automatic rifle in a village

 3     which was not of strategic importance for the Muslims.  If you take that,

 4     you can only imagine how well armed they were in the town itself and

 5     other villages.

 6             We had known that before, and I mentioned in my statement, that

 7     as the director of the public revenue administration, I was in contact

 8     with many Muslims, because I was in charge of assessing taxes based on

 9     movable and immovable property, taxes levied on economic activity for

10     companies and entrepreneurs.  It means, in other words, that I was aware

11     of the information pertaining to every taxpayer in the town itself.

12        Q.   I interrupted you because we've moved away from the direct

13     question that I'd asked you, and I'd ask you to please focus on the

14     precise question I'm asking and try to limit your answers to respond just

15     to that precise question, and I will try to keep my questions precise.

16             Now, I'd like to direct your attention to a passage in this

17     statement beginning about halfway down the first paragraph, and it says:

18             "Having followed the developments in April 1992 and the

19     preparations on the part of the former JNA, which was joined by the local

20     Serbian population, we, the inhabitants of the village, organised village

21     guards.  We would observe them deploy weapons and artillery pieces around

22     our village and train their barrels on our village, allegedly afraid of

23     us being numerous and armed.  The weapons and artillery pieces deployed

24     included four tanks, two armoured personnel carriers, an unidentified

25     number of cannons and mortars and other small arms."

Page 33896

 1             And then Mr. Kapo goes on to identify Mr. Boban Jesic and

 2     Rajko Kusic as the commanders in the area.  And in the next page in the

 3     English, he says:

 4             "In contrast to them, we had around 40 submachine-guns and a

 5     number of hunting rifles and explosive devices."

 6             So it's clear, as you indicate in your statement, that Mr. Kapo

 7     said that the Muslims of Kramer Selo had 40 automatic weapons and hunting

 8     rifles and some explosive devices, but it's also clear that the Muslims

 9     of Kramer Selo were nevertheless under threat from a far more powerful

10     array of Serb weapons deployed around their villages, namely, tanks,

11     APCs, cannons, and mortars.  That's right, isn't it?

12        A.   That is not right.  A moment ago you said yourself that there was

13     a JNA unit which for a period was stationed in Sjemec and then went to

14     Sarajevo.  They were fully equipped in terms of weaponry.  Our TO was

15     armed in a similar way as the Muslims.  In other words, with infantry

16     weapons.  The TO did not have any tanks or any heavy weapons.  According

17     to military speciality, all those who could man and service tanks and

18     heavy weapons joined the unit which went to Sarajevo.  The TO comprised

19     elderly men as well as younger men who perhaps had not served their

20     military service at the time.

21             This witness's statement on the type of weapons is incorrect.

22        Q.   Well, the Chamber has received evidence from Mr. Ujic, who was a

23     witness for the Defence and who actually co-ordinated artillery for the

24     Rogatica Brigade, that at some point in time there was artillery

25     surrounding this village because he testified to personally commanding --

Page 33897

 1     or personally co-ordinating, sorry, the shelling attack of Kramer Selo,

 2     an attack that caused the population to flee and resulted in the wounding

 3     of some children by shrapnel.  And I refer to transcript pages 33466 to

 4     33467.

 5             Were you unaware of the fact that this village was ultimately

 6     shelled and the population fled?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the quote and time that

 8     Ujic's statement refers to?  Was the JNA still there or -- can we have a

 9     reference for the quote?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Did you check the page numbers Ms. Gustafson

11     referred to?  Please come back after checking in the transcript.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  In any event, Your Honours, the question was

13     framed that at some point in time there was artillery surrounding the

14     village, so I think the question is fair regardless of the time period.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I think the witness will be able to deal with this.

16             Can you answer the question, Mr. Veselinovic?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, perhaps that question should

18     be put to Mr. Mile Ujic again to clarify what period it concerns.

19     Finally, he took part in those operations.  I don't know what units they

20     acted in co-ordination with them.  At the time, I was at the

21     Crisis Staff, and I wasn't familiar with it.  The army was under no

22     obligation to inform us of their plans and operations, as well as with

23     the kind of weapons they had at their disposal to attack.  It is my

24     subjective opinion that such unit, knowing the people who remained in the

25     area and who were not any military experts -- well, Mile perhaps was the

Page 33898

 1     only military officer.  As a member of the Executive Board and the Crisis

 2     Staff, he remained in the area.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And at paragraph 11 of your statement, you assert that the

 4     Muslims were being armed en masse, and as support for that assertion you

 5     explain how you learned that some SDA members in Rogatica had received

 6     pistols.  You don't say anything in your statement about Serb arming.

 7     However, the Chamber heard extensive and detailed evidence from

 8     Asim Dzambasovic, who was the Chief of Staff of the 216th Brigade of the

 9     JNA, regarding JNA arming of Serbs in Rogatica in the period leading up

10     to the war.  And I refer to P2828, paragraphs 41 to 54.  And that

11     evidence included his diary entry for the 29th of January, 1992, where he

12     stated:

13             "Despite the irrefutable arguments, the commander does not want

14     to undertake measures against the ones who are stealing the weapons.  He

15     is encouraging distribution of weapons and is giving them away by his own

16     free will.  Superior command Colonel Gagovic and Djurdjevac second this

17     silently."

18             Now, were you aware of these concerns expressed at the level of

19     the brigade command regarding the arming of Serbs by the JNA in Rogatica

20     supported by the brigade and corps command?

21        A.   The Yugoslav People's Army did not arm Serbs in Rogatica.  The

22     JNA supplied weapons to Serbs who joined the JNA.  Otherwise, there was

23     no need for them to give anyone any weapons.  When the Muslims decided to

24     ignore mobilisation call-ups and stopped joining the JNA, the JNA became

25     mostly Serbs, but otherwise the army provided weapons only to new

Page 33899

 1     conscripts.  The JNA did not need to supply weapons to Serbs.  The Serbs

 2     were anxious to keep the JNA as a force keeping their state together.  So

 3     what this witness said in his evidence is not true.

 4        Q.   Okay.  In regard to the mobilisation you just referred to, I'd

 5     like to go to -- I believe it's D2953.  It's an associated exhibit

 6     admitted this morning.

 7             Mr. Veselinovic, you referred in your statement in several places

 8     to your efforts to preserve peace, and you reiterated that in your

 9     evidence this morning.  And this is a "Politika" article from July 1991

10     that you described in your statement at paragraph 14, and it relates to

11     the JNA mobilisation that the Chamber's heard evidence occurred in June

12     of 1991.  And in the second paragraph it states that the Serbs

13     responded -- or the Serbs left en masse for the front, and that's a claim

14     you also make in paragraph 10.

15             And in the article you complain that only 10 per cent of the

16     Muslim reservists who responded to the mobilisation went to Banja Luka,

17     whereas the Serbs responded in the largest numbers, and you state that

18     this left the Serbian villages deserted.

19             Now, again, Mr. Dzambasovic, who at the time was -- participated

20     in implementing this mobilisation and who went to Banja Luka with the

21     conscripts, gave evidence that there was a general failure by both Serbs

22     and Muslims to respond to this mobilisation.  And then there was a

23     further mass refusal by the soldiers to go to Banja Luka because they

24     were afraid of being sent to Vukovar and getting killed.  And as a

25     result, of the 4.000 soldiers in the brigade at the time, only about 800

Page 33900

 1     of any ethnicity went to the front.  And that's at Exhibit P2828,

 2     paragraphs 14 to 26.

 3             So the basic premise of this article that the Serbs responded en

 4     masse to this mobilisation is -- leaving the elderly, children, and

 5     female Serbs vulnerable to Muslim attacks, is at best a major

 6     exaggeration because, in fact, only about 1 in 5 brigade soldiers of any

 7     ethnicity went to the front.  Isn't that right?

 8        A.   That is not so.  We heard this morning that just a few Muslims

 9     responded to the mobilisation call-up who went back very quickly because

10     the SDA had sent buses to fetch them in Banja Luka and bring them back.

11     Some people responded, but only thanks to our efforts and agitation,

12     because they had not even received the call-up papers because the SDA

13     blocked normal, regular mobilisation because they hid the military

14     papers.

15             The entire unit was not even planned to go to Banja Luka, the

16     unit made up of Serbs.  But when the Muslims started ignoring the

17     mobilisation call-ups, the fear became real.  If the Serb villages are

18     empty, if there are not enough able-bodied men to protect them and the

19     Muslims -- the Muslim men were still there because they had not joined

20     the army, we were thinking why are they organising themselves if they are

21     not joining the army?

22             You cannot imagine it, but at that time refusing the call-up

23     meant a long prison sentence, because you were treated like an enemy of

24     the state.  So you could only do that wishing that the unit would be --

25     fall apart, that the state would fall apart and you would never be held

Page 33901

 1     responsible, and that meant in turn that you are doing everything to

 2     destroy that state.

 3             So our fears were justified.  We believed the Muslim objective

 4     was to destroy the state, and that's why they were trying to prevent even

 5     the Serbs from staying within the army.

 6        Q.   Okay.  It's clear your evidence is that this failure to respond

 7     to the mobilisation was part of a plot to destroy the state.  And in this

 8     article you are quoted as saying:

 9             "We have a message for all those who are preparing dirty war

10     plans, that the Serbs in Bosnia and Herzegovina are ready and that 1941

11     will never be repeated."

12             Your reference to 1941 here is an evocation of the mass murder

13     and persecution of Serbs during World War II, an event I suspect you

14     would probably characterize as a genocide; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  In 1941, the Serb people were destroyed.

16        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  I'd just like you to keep your answers as

17     precise as possible.  And -- and --

18        A.   My answer is yes, the Serb people were destroyed in 1941, but our

19     readiness -- I did not finish.

20        Q.   I had just asked for you to confirm that you -- what you were

21     referring to regarding the events of 1941.  I think your answer's clear.

22             And then when you said, "We have a message for all those who are

23     preparing dirty war plans, the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina are ready and

24     that 1941 will never be repeated," you were warning that the Muslims are

25     preparing war plans that involve the destruction of the Serb people akin

Page 33902

 1     to what happened in 1941, and that the Serbs are ready to use force in

 2     the face of this Muslim threat; is that right?

 3        A.   No, that's not right.  I didn't say that the Serbs were ready to

 4     use force.  I said this they were ready to stop it from happening again.

 5     They would not be sitting in their houses waiting to be rounded up, taken

 6     to camps and killed.  They were ready to join the JNA, the legitimate

 7     army, and defend the state in which they had lived, in which they were

 8     born, and they wanted to continue living in.  I didn't say that they were

 9     ready to respond with force and kill.  That's not written there.  Please

10     do not put words in my mouth.

11        Q.   By disseminating this warning that the Muslims are planning mass

12     murder, as you call it, destruction of the Serb people, and saying that

13     the Serbs are ready to respond to that threat, such a statement coming

14     from the head of the SDS in Rogatica in July 1991, that could only have

15     added to the fears and ethnic tensions at the time.  Don't you agree?

16        A.   I don't agree.  That's not so.  It was a warning to those Serbs

17     who hadn't yet woken up, who were still believing in brotherhood and

18     unity.  It was a warning to them that we could be tricked again.  We were

19     putting to them real facts that they could not learn from BH media.

20     Serbs had no access to the media in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That's why I

21     approached the daily "Politika" that was published and printed in

22     Belgrade and was still widely read in our region and enjoyed trust.

23        Q.   Okay.  At paragraph 14 of your statement - I'm moving on now to

24     another topic - you state that --

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just say something?

Page 33903

 1     Concerning that intervention on pages 33466 and 467, I would appreciate

 2     it if Ms. Gustafson quoted properly rather than ascribing part of her

 3     question to Mr. Mile Ujic.  He did not say that he had taken part in the

 4     attack that caused the population to flee.  We would not be allowed to do

 5     this, misrepresenting one witness's statement to another witness.  He

 6     said -- you can look up, for instance, 33467.  Let's rewind.

 7             "The point of our offer was you hand over your weapons, you live

 8     peacefully and normally.  If there is fire coming from a village, it's

 9     not a village any more.  It's a military target, a legitimate military

10     target, especially after the killings that happened on that road."

11             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we proceed or would you like to respond,

12     Ms. Gustafson?

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I would like to proceed.  I will look back again

14     at the transcript reference and respond in due course.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

17        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, on -- at paragraph 14 of your statement, you

18     say:

19             "On the 22nd of May, the Muslims were finally ready for the war

20     and carried out an attack on the Serbs. "

21             Now I take it you were not involved in planning or implementing

22     any military activities in Rogatica at this time in late May; is that

23     right?

24        A.   On the 2nd of May, that Serb policeman Mihajlovic Drazenko was

25     killed and the chairman of our Crisis Staff, Mile Sokolovic, called upon

Page 33904

 1     the opposite side to let us recover the body of that policeman.

 2        Q.   My question was whether you were involved in planning or

 3     implementing any military activities in Rogatica at this time, late May.

 4     If you could please answer that question.

 5        A.   No.

 6        Q.   Okay.  Now, I'm going to put it to you that your evidence about

 7     the Muslims attacking the Serbs on the 22nd of May is completely untrue.

 8     The Serbs attacked the Muslims of Rogatica on the 22nd of May by shelling

 9     parts of the town in Muslim-populated villages and carrying out an

10     infantry attack on parts of the town.  Do you agree or disagree?

11        A.   I know for a fact that the first person killed in Rogatica was

12     Drazenko Mihajlovic, and he was killed in May.  Whether it was the

13     22nd of May, I can't say, but the killing of Drazenko Mihajlovic was the

14     first Serb killed.  You interrupted me a moment ago when I was saying the

15     president of our Crisis Staff contacted the Muslim side, asking them to

16     approve that we recover the body and bury him, and they answered, "When

17     we kill another 10, then we will let you have all the bodies."  That's

18     what I learnt from our president, and that was our last telephone contact

19     with them.  After that, all-out war began.

20             Now, what was attacked, in what sequence, I really can't say.  I

21     don't know.

22        Q.   Okay.  So just to be clear, when you said that on 22nd of May the

23     Muslims were finally ready for the war and carried out an attack on the

24     Serbs, that attack you're talking about is the killing of

25     Drazenko Mihajlovic; is that right?

Page 33905

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  Did Your Honours want to take the

 3     break at the normal time?

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I was about to ask you how much longer you

 5     need just for planning purposes.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Probably just 5 to 10 minutes, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Then we will take a break after the conclusion of

 8     this witness's cross-examination.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  Thank you.

10        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, if we can go to 65 ter 24614.  I'd like to look

11     at this document.  Sorry, it will be coming up on the screen.

12             This is an official note of an interview you had with the

13     Rogatica police in 2004, and it records what you told the police on that

14     occasion, and it talks about how you -- it says you were actually removed

15     from your position as party president in March of 1992.  And then, this

16     is the third paragraph in the middle, it says:

17             "After a certain period of time, he joined a JNA unit, the

18     commander of which was Major Radomir Furtula.  Veselinovic played the

19     role of a rear soldier.  He stayed with this unit until around September

20     1992, when the Executive Committee president appointed him head of the

21     income administration on which position he remained until the end of

22     1993 ..."

23             And the next paragraph at the bottom of the English it says:

24             "Due to the fact that he was removed from the party president's

25     office and because of his service in the military, he is not aware of the

Page 33906

 1     events surrounding the creation of the Crisis Staff or its later actions,

 2     and neither is he aware of its influence on the course of the military

 3     and police actions during 1992."

 4             The next paragraph says:

 5             "As far as the collection centres are concerned, considering that

 6     he was not present in the town in the period between March and September,

 7     he is aware of the existence of a collection centre at the secondary

 8     school but does not know any details about its creation or command

 9     structure."

10             And then concludes by saying that:

11             "He does not have any knowledge about the disappearance of

12     13 children from the municipality ..."

13             Now, as you can see, this note says you served in Major Furtula's

14     JNA unit from sometime around March 1992 until September 1992.  We know

15     that's not true.  You testified today that you were in that unit for

16     about a month, during April and May 1992.

17             It states that after you served in this unit in September of

18     1992, you were appointed head of the income administration.  That's also

19     not true.  You actually provided a copy of the decision appointing you

20     director of revenue administration on the 30th of June, 1992.  That's

21     MFI D2961, referenced at paragraph 15 of your statement.

22             And at paragraph 15 you also state that you were appointed to

23     head of commission to accommodate refugees on the 30th of May, which is

24     corroborated by another document you provided, D2960.

25             And it also states that due to your service in the military, you

Page 33907

 1     were not aware of events surrounding the creation of the Crisis Staff or

 2     its later actions.  That's also not true considering your evidence today,

 3     which provided details about the creation of the Crisis Staff, its

 4     functions, and your membership in it.

 5             And the note states that you were not present in the town between

 6     March and September 1992.  Once again that is not true.  You testified

 7     that you first entered the town five or six days after its liberation,

 8     which you stated was sometime in July, and that was at page 46 of today's

 9     transcript.  And you actually videotaped that event are and we saw some

10     footage of that.

11             So, Mr. Veselinovic, in essence, you did not tell the truth to

12     the Rogatica police when they interviewed you in 2004; is that right?

13        A.   I don't know what the policemen wrote in this official note.  I

14     told them the truth too.  I could not have been in the JNA until

15     September, because they had gone to Sarajevo.  I stayed and left that

16     unit before they left for Sarajevo.  I don't know why they put September

17     here.  That's not what I told them.

18             I told you after talking to prominent Serbs, long-time business

19     leaders, inviting them to join the Crisis Staff, I left all the

20     activities to Tomo Batinic and Mile Ujic, and I reported to a unit.

21     While I was in the unit, the Municipal Board was appointed, the mandates

22     were verified, the list of the members of the Crisis Staff was published.

23     They informed me that I was a member and invited me to return.  That's

24     what I've said already.  What they wrote here about the month of

25     September, it must be their mistake, or maybe a typo.  That's not what I

Page 33908

 1     stated to them.

 2             All these documents that I confirmed today are then refuted by

 3     this.  All the -- all the decisions that I've shown you would be false.

 4     All the activities that I engaged in would all be denied by this.

 5        Q.   Well, Mr. Veselinovic, it's not just a typo about your dates in

 6     the unit.  It also states that you were not present in the town between

 7     March and September, and for that reason you don't know anything about

 8     the collection centres.  It states that due to your service in the

 9     military, you have no information about the creation of the Crisis Staff

10     or its later actions.  So do you have any explanation for how the

11     Rogatica police got this report of your interview with them so wrong in

12     so many ways?

13        A.   They interviewed me, but this person wrote this subjectively.

14     You know what perception can be.  I was not in town.  They believed that

15     the Crisis Staff was outside of town, and it was, near the periphery.  I

16     had no need to go into the city.  I did not know what the army was doing.

17     I did not know what was going on in -- on military front lines.  That's

18     what they meant what they wrote that I did not --

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This -- the interpretation of this

20     answer is a disaster.  Nothing is what the witness said.  He talked about

21     perception.  He said not that he believed that it was outside of town,

22     that -- he said he knows.  He said that's what they meant when they said

23     he did not go into town.  This cannot be followed so bad -- so bad is it.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, you accept that you were interviewed by the


Page 33909

 1     Rogatica police on the 16 of June, 2004, as this document states?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes, I agree.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I tender this document, and I have no further

 4     questions.  Thank you.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6129, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, certainly.

10     For instance, this document, I usually take it up from the last one.

11             JUDGE KWON:  How long do you think it would last?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Five minutes probably, not more.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Then shall we conclude this witness's evidence and

14     take a break?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Dr. Veselinovic, while we're still on this

19     document, did they let you read this document?  Did you verify it with

20     your signature?

21        A.   I can't remember, but the talk was informal.  We were sitting and

22     talking.  I presented them with certain facts.  And later, after I left,

23     they made this official note and signed it.  How they perceived all the

24     things I was saying, how completely askew it is, you can see for what is

25     written.  Before or after this conversation with them, I never got this

Page 33910

 1     paper to see it.

 2        Q.   Under whose command were the Serbs who received weapons from the

 3     JNA, under the command of the Crisis Staff, the Territorial Defence, or a

 4     third party?

 5        A.   All those who received weapons were under JNA command.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now I have to call up a document briefly.  On

 7     page 66, it was put that Serbs attacked Rogatica on the 22nd of May or

 8     around that date.  Who was attacking and who was defending themselves on

 9     that Sunday, 22nd May 1992?

10        A.   I don't know the precise date when it happened, but if that is

11     believed to be the date of the fighting in town when three Serb soldiers

12     were killed, it was a total chaos after the killing of

13     Drazenko Mihajlovic.

14        Q.   And who was the attacker?  Who was attacking Rogatica?  Who took

15     over Rogatica?

16        A.   Rogatica was taken over by the Muslims.  They were in Rogatica.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see 65 ter 6968, dated

18     23rd June -- no.  Can we see the one from the 29th first, 7088.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please take a look at this regular operative report

21     dated 25th of June.  In paragraph 5 it says up there who is where, and in

22     paragraph 5 it says they carried out offensive actions against our

23     positions in that area.

24             Did the Serb army go into Rogatica before this definitive

25     liberation?

Page 33911

 1        A.   They couldn't.  We couldn't walk around Rogatica saying, Now we

 2     won't shoot, now we will shoot.  Quite simply, no Serb could go into

 3     Rogatica.

 4        Q.   And does this report correspond with what you know about the

 5     attacks and their deployment in Dub, Karacici, Golubovici and so on?

 6        A.   Well, I have no reason to doubt the report.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this,

 8     please.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Gustafson.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2965, Your Honours.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Throughout the whole period, Dr. Veselinovic, until you liberated

15     Rogatica, who carried out attacks?

16        A.   The attacks were carried out by Muslims from Rogatica.  Since we

17     were on the periphery, their objective -- and they strived to expand the

18     territory and join up with the area of Gorazde with some villages of

19     there that we were cutting off.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 65 ter 6968 now,

21     please.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   This is from the 23rd of June, and what it says here is that this

24     is a regular operations report.  The enemy continues being most active in

25     the town on the Sjemec-Visegrad road, and it's firing at our positions.

Page 33912

 1     And in the sector of Gornja Aleska [phoen], the enemy attacked our forces

 2     which were securing the work being done on the power transmission line.

 3     Do you remember that, that they knocked down the power transmission line?

 4        A.   I don't recall that.  I don't know the particulars, but I know

 5     that specific in Rogatica they torched the transformer station.  There

 6     was no electricity for a long time, and you could see their machine-gun

 7     nests on those photographs, and also you could see when they fired at

 8     houses, when they -- the ammunition fell short of their targets.  And you

 9     also saw some other details, but I don't know about any particulars

10     regarding activities out of town.  I know only what I heard while I was

11     working at Sladara during my activities in the Crisis Staff.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we admit this?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 2966, Your Honours.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

17        Q.   Just one more question, Dr. Veselinovic.  Let's clarify this

18     confusion about when the Serbs had which kind of weapons.  After the JNA

19     withdrew, did the Army of Republika Srpska have more weapons than the

20     Serbs had before the JNA withdrew?

21        A.   Well, we have to know that the TO unit formed by Rajko Kusic was

22     very quickly placed under the JNA by activities the Crisis Staff, and it

23     became part of the Yugoslav People's Army.  And as such, it was in a

24     situation that it had more weaponry and it had a greater amount of

25     weaponry at its disposal, as a unit, part of the force under the command

Page 33913

 1     of the General Staff headed by General Ratko Mladic.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  I'm going to read to you what Mr. Ujic said on

 3     page 33466.  I'm going to read it in English so it could be translated

 4     better.  Reply, line 21:

 5             [In English] "Please, I can't laconically say 'yes,' but just in

 6     a few words.  I co-ordinated the artillery, as you know, so that the

 7     targets could be engaged from which we received fire.  Only they were

 8     neutralised.  That's the extent of my participation."

 9             [Interpretation] Do you have any knowledge or do you know if

10     anyone shelled for the purpose of getting rid of the population, of

11     driving the population out as it is suggested in this question?

12        A.   No.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, the horse has left the barn, but the

15     witness in his cross-examination said he knew nothing about this attack,

16     and it's completely improper for Dr. Karadzic to read somebody else's

17     evidence to him and ask a question about it in that manner.  There was no

18     foundation for it.

19             And just while I'm on my feet, Dr. Karadzic has now pointed to

20     the precise passage that supported the question I put to the witness,

21     which in my question I said that Mr. Ujic had given evidence that he

22     co-ordinated this artillery attack, caused the population to flee, and

23     resulted in the wounding of children.  And at transcript page 33466 he --

24     at line 21 and 22, he said he co-ordinated the artillery --

25             JUDGE KWON:  But it might have sounded that they -- that witness


Page 33914

 1     had agreed that shelling caused the fleeing of the population.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yeah, but in -- then at --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on.  I think it's enough.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Precisely, Your Excellency.  I have

 5     no further questions.

 6             Thank you, Mr. Veselinovic.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, Your Honours, I just have to put this on

 8     the record.  And then I asked Mr. Ujic:

 9             "And those children had been left behind the column of Muslims

10     fleeing those villages; right?"

11             And the answer was:  "Yes, yes."

12             I think the question was fair, and that's at line 16 of

13     transcript page 33467.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's leave it there.  Thank you, Ms. Gustafson, and

15     thank you, Mr. Karadzic.

16             Dr. Veselinovic, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of the

17     Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.

18     Now you are free to go.  And we'll rise all together.

19             We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.40.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was my pleasure.  Thank you.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22                           --- Recess taken at 12.53 p.m.

23                           --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m.

24                           [The witness entered court]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness take the solemn declaration,


Page 33915

 1     please.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 3     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

 4                           WITNESS:  MOMIR DEURIC

 5                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Deuric.  Please make yourself

 7     comfortable.

 8             Before you start giving evidence, Mr. Deuric, I'd like to draw

 9     your attention to a particular Rule here at the International Tribunal.

10     Do you hear me in the language you understand, Mr. Deuric?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Under this Rule, Rule 90(E), you may object to

13     answering a question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the

14     Judges, if you believe that your answer will incriminate you.  When I say

15     "incriminate," I mean that something you say may amount to an admission

16     of your guilt for a criminal offence or could provide evidence that you

17     have committed an offence.  However, even if you think your answer will

18     incriminate you and you do not wish to answer the question, the Tribunal

19     has the power to compel you answer the question, but in such a case, the

20     Tribunal will make sure that your testimony compelled in such a way shall

21     not be used as evidence in other case against you for any offence other

22     than for false testimony.

23             Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, I understand.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.


Page 33916

 1             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 3                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Deuric.

 5        A.   Good afternoon.

 6        Q.   Can I just remind you to pause between question and answer,

 7     because we want to make sure that everything is correctly recorded in the

 8     transcript.  If you follow the cursor on the monitor, when it stops after

 9     I put my question to you, then you can start your answer.

10             Did you provide a statement to my team?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 1D7231 in e-court,

14     please.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Deuric, do you see the statement on the screen in front of

17     you?  Is that the statement?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read the statement, and did you sign it?

20        A.   Yes.  I read it and signed it.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the last page,

23     please, so that the witness could identify the signature.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Is this your signature, Mr. Deuric?

Page 33917

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  And does the statement accurately reflect what you

 3     said?  Did you hear me, Mr. Deuric?  Is the statement correct?  Is what

 4     is stated there a reflection of what you said?

 5        A.   Yes.  Yes.

 6        Q.   If I were to put the same questions to you today that the Defence

 7     team put to you when they took the statement, would your answers in

 8     essence be the same?

 9        A.   Yes, they would be the same.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would like to tender this

12     statement pursuant to Rule 92 ter.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no associated exhibits.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Zec?

16             MR. ZEC:  There is none, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit the statement.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D2967, Your Honours.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm now going to read the summary

20     of Mr. Deuric's statement in English.

21             [In English] Momir Deuric was a security guard of the reception

22     centre of Susica.

23             He provided security for the depots at Susica which housed

24     equipment for the Territorial Defence.  At this time, the composition of

25     the guards was mixed.  However, Momir Deuric found that following his


Page 33918

 1     annual leave at the end of 1991, a Muslim colleague had been made chief

 2     of security despite being far less experienced than Momir Deuric.

 3             Up until the early 1990, Momir Deuric considers that there was no

 4     particular ethnic intolerance.  However, at the beginning of the 1992,

 5     when the plan of the Muslims, Croats, and Slovenes to break up Yugoslavia

 6     came to light, the Serbs began to mistrust the Muslims.  The Serbs were

 7     not in favour of this break-up, and when the national parties took

 8     charge, the situation started going downhill.

 9             Momir Deuric recalls that the Muslim SDA party in particular

10     denigrated the other parties, and at their inaugural meetings there was

11     an enormous outpouring of hatred towards the Serbs.  Further, at the

12     inaugural meeting of the SDS, the Muslims organised themselves and threw

13     stones at vehicles and passers-by who were attending the meeting.

14     Momir Deuric is aware that when the war in Croatia began, the Muslims

15     supported the Croats and went to fight on their side.  Clashes then

16     between Serbs and Muslims became frequent.

17             During 1991, the Serbs were mostly mobilised to the

18     Territorial Defence units.  However, the Muslims did not respond to this

19     call-up.  Through mobilisation, many Serbs obtained weapons, whereas the

20     Muslims obtained them mainly via the SDA and bought them for money.

21             In April 1992, Momir Deuric's two Muslim colleagues stopped

22     attending work and therefore the Serbian guards had to organise

23     themselves.  At this time, there was already talk of fighting between

24     Muslims and Serbs which caused great panic.  People started leaving in

25     droves.  The majority of inhabitants had various kinds of weapons, and in

Page 33919

 1     the evenings shooting was often heard.  He was aware that the Serb

 2     representatives in the municipal government in Vlasenica tried in various

 3     ways to avoid war with the Muslims.  They proposed dividing the territory

 4     into two municipalities.  The Muslims in authority accepted this

 5     decision.  However, they immediately began leaving Vlasenica en masse.

 6             Momir Deuric recalls a complete mobilisation of the Serbs in

 7     Vlasenica was carried out on 21st of April, 1992.  At this point, only

 8     one depot was full and therefore in May 1992, Serbs who had fled from --

 9     fled other surrounding villages were accommodated in the empty depot

10     which was then guarded by the police.  Every day Serbs left this depot as

11     accommodation was found for them in the city or elsewhere and soon the

12     depot was empty.

13             After the depot had been emptied, the army took control of it and

14     started bringing Muslims to the depot from neighbouring towns.  There

15     were instances where Muslim families went to the depot to spend the night

16     there until transport could be arranged as they did not feel safe in

17     their own home.

18             Momir Deuric was not aware of anyone being killed in the

19     facility.  He observed on several occasions that a foreign delegation

20     arrived at the depot accompanied by the police.  He later learned that

21     these delegations were mainly from the International Red Cross.

22             On 26th of September, 1992, Momir Deuric heard heavy gunfire

23     early in the morning from the direction of Rogosija village and knew that

24     the Muslims had attacked it.  A call was made for people to go and assist

25     in the village as many Serbs were wounded.  He responded to this call and


Page 33920

 1     when he arrived, he saw that the village had been torched and many people

 2     were slaughtered, both soldiers and civilians.  No Muslim fighters were

 3     found after this attack, as they had withdrawn immediately after

 4     committing this attack.  Momir Deuric attended the funeral of those who

 5     had been killed in Rogosija and was not aware of any officials from Pale

 6     attending.  A day or two after this funeral, the depot was closed as all

 7     the Muslims had been taken for an exchange.

 8             Momir Deuric did not hear from anyone that Radovan Karadzic gave

 9     any kind of orders to anyone in Vlasenica with regard to the treatment of

10     Muslims.

11             [Interpretation] This was the summary.  I don't have questions

12     for this witness at this point, Your Honours.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Deuric, as you have now noted, your evidence in

14     this case has been admitted in its entirety in writing instead of your

15     oral testimony.  Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of

16     the Office of the Prosecutor.

17             Yes, Mr. Zec.

18             MR. ZEC:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Zec:

20        Q.   Good afternoon to you, Mr. Deuric.

21        A.   Good afternoon.

22        Q.   You told us in your statement that there was a complete

23     mobilisation in Vlasenica on 21st of April, 1992.  You were summoned to

24     report to the premises of the Boksit company.  Can you tell us who

25     exactly did you go to report?  Was it command of the Serb TO in

Page 33921

 1     Vlasenica?

 2        A.   Yes.  The TO command from Vlasenica.  We received summons from

 3     the Secretariat for National Defence, and we reported to the Boksit

 4     building.  And earlier it was agreed that Vlasenica be divided into two

 5     municipalities, Serbian one and a Muslim one.

 6        Q.   This is in your statement.  You don't have to repeat.  It's okay.

 7     I'll just ask you specific questions.

 8        A.   Okay.

 9        Q.   And the TO assigned you to provide security to the TO facilities

10     at Susica together with Slobodan Jovic and others, didn't they?

11        A.   Yes, yes.

12        Q.   You told us in paragraph 18 that after the army took control of

13     Susica, they started bringing Muslims, but you didn't provide any date.

14     This Chamber has heard evidence that the VRS established camp for

15     prisoners at Susica on 31st May 1992.  So this is the date when the army

16     took over Susica, isn't it?

17        A.   First of all, Serb families that had fled Gorazde, Olovo, and

18     Kladanj came to the facility in Susica.  They spent two or three nights

19     there.  The municipal authorities found --

20        Q.   This is again in your statement.  I'm just trying to find out the

21     date.  Is it 31st May 1992?  If you remember.  If you don't remember,

22     it's okay.  When the army took over Susica.  We can move on.  That's no

23     problem.

24        A.   First the police handled the security in Susica, and then I think

25     in late May, it was the army that took over that job from the police.

Page 33922

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MR. ZEC:  And, Your Honours, this is in P03240.

 3        Q.   You told us, Mr. Deuric, that among the buildings at Susica,

 4     there was the old TO building that was used to store the TO equipment.

 5     There was the new TO building that you say was built in 1991 and there

 6     was the small guardhouse.  This is correct, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes, it is.

 8        Q.   These buildings were about 20 metres apart.  They were surrounded

 9     by barbed wire fence and there were trenches around it.  That's correct,

10     isn't it?

11        A.   Yes, there was barbed wire, but it had been torn two or three

12     years prior.  It was very old wire.

13        Q.   Let's have a look at some photos of Susica.

14             MR. ZEC:  Can we have in e-court 65 ter 24591.

15        Q.   Mr. Deuric, in this photo we see Susica camp from the air.  The

16     big frame on this photo is the building that you say was built in 1991.

17     Next to it is the old TO building and opposite to these two is the small

18     guardhouse.  That's correct, isn't it?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. ZEC:  Can we have the next page.

21        Q.   This is another view of Susica camp from the air.  And here we

22     can see other buildings and houses around Susica camp and there's the

23     Vlasenica town in the background, isn't it?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. ZEC:  Can we have the next page.

Page 33923

 1        Q.   This shows the entrance to the Susica camp.  To our right is the

 2     old TO building.  Next to it is the new -- next to it is the new TO

 3     building, and the white guardhouse is the opposite side of the new

 4     building.

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MR. ZEC:  Next page, please.

 7        Q.   This photo was taken in 1996, whereas the previous photos, they

 8     were from 2002.  This photo depicts the area behind the guardhouse;

 9     correct?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZEC:  Next page, please.

12        Q.   This is area in front of the new building, and here we can see an

13     electric pole in the shape of the letter A.  Can you confirm this pole

14     was there in 1996 and before?

15        A.   Yes, it was.

16             MR. ZEC:  Can we have the next page.

17        Q.   And this again we see Susica camp from the air, and this pole is

18     in the middle.  That's correct, isn't it?  Can you confirm that this is

19     Susica camp?

20        A.   Yes, I can.

21             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I will tender these photos.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6130, Your Honours.

24             MR. ZEC:

25        Q.   You told us in your statement that you observed several times

Page 33924

 1     from your guardhouse that a foreign delegation visited Susica.  When you

 2     say, Mr. Deuric, in your statement "guardhouse," you are referring to the

 3     guardhouse that we saw on the photos.  That's correct, isn't it?

 4        A.   No.  From the warehouse where I worked there was materiel and

 5     equipment of the TO or of its Municipal Staff.  I was there most of the

 6     time storing and sorting equipment which would be strewn about every time

 7     soldiers came by.  On occasion, I could observe from the warehouse that a

 8     delegation has arrived.  Later on, people told me they were from the

 9     International Red Cross.

10        Q.   I was referring what you said in your statement.  Now you were

11     saying you were in this old TO building that we also saw on the photos.

12     That's correct, isn't it?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Would the prisoners be present at Susica while these delegations

15     were coming?

16        A.   Yes, they were.

17        Q.   How much -- how many of them would be there?

18        A.   The captured people?

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Well, it depended.  There were more when buses arrived to take

21     them to be exchanged.  I know that a group went to Batkovic.  I think

22     there were two buses that went there.  Later there were fewer.  The

23     International Red Cross mission visited prior to their being sent for an

24     exchange and afterwards too.

25        Q.   Let's have a look at the report prepared by the CSC mission that

Page 33925

 1     visited Susica on 2nd September 1992.

 2             MR. ZEC:  Can we have P03228.

 3        Q.   Second paragraph of the report refers to two sheds, one of which

 4     was larger and was used to hold detainees.  The second shed, they say,

 5     was smaller and was used to store boxes of small arms, old shoes, and

 6     other military equipment.  Empty boxes were piled outside the small shed,

 7     they say.  Paragraphs after refer to prisoners and general conditions at

 8     Susica.

 9             Do you remember this visit of 2nd September 1992, Mr. Deuric?

10        A.   No, I don't.  I wasn't present at that time.  As for the shack

11     that was there, we only --

12        Q.   We can move on.  According to this report, the delegation was

13     able to see about 40 prisoners.  At the end of the third paragraph, they

14     say they were not confident that they saw all of the prisoners.  Do you

15     know, Mr. Deuric, where other prisoners were during this visit?

16        A.   I know that sometimes in the morning, although not every day,

17     people reported for work, people such as plumbers, electricians.

18     Whenever something needed to be done.  For the most part they went to

19     work in the health clinic when things needed to be fixed such as

20     plumbing, and that is why they may not have been present.  They weren't

21     there all day long at Susica.

22        Q.   Now I would like to show you a few photos that this delegation

23     was able at to take.

24             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 26 -- 24615.  Next page, please.

25        Q.   This is the entrance to the Susica camp.  We see the gate, the

Page 33926

 1     old TO building that -- with boxes piled in front of it.  And there is a

 2     new -- the new building.  That's correct, isn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             MR. ZEC:  Can we have next page.

 5        Q.   This photo shows inside of the new TO building.  That's correct,

 6     isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   The person that looks towards camera was Hasan Paric [phoen],

 9     prisoner at Susica.  Do you recognise him?

10        A.   I'm not sure.

11             MR. ZEC:  Can we have next page.

12        Q.   This shows inside of the old TO building described in the report

13     that you say you were guarding.  That's correct, isn't it?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So you were guarding this without knowing what was happening

16     outside.  Is that your evidence, Mr. Deuric?

17        A.   This is not the old building.

18        Q.   That's what they say in the report.

19             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I would tender these photos.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6131, Your Honours.

22             MR. ZEC:

23        Q.   Mr. Deuric, you say in paragraph 19 that you were not aware of

24     anyone being killed at Susica.  In fact, what was happening at Susica

25     were murders, beatings, torture, and rapes.  This is what was taking

Page 33927

 1     place, Mr. Deuric, isn't it?

 2        A.   Let me tell you this:  I wasn't at Susica every day.  I have

 3     children and a wife, and they were refugees in Serbia.  When I was at

 4     Susica, no one was killed in my presence.  I wasn't able to hear or see

 5     it.  I heard from my comrades that two people died, Durmo Handzic and

 6     Zivzic [phoen].  I don't remember his first name.  I do remember that

 7     doctors came and confirmed that they died of heart attack.  That's what I

 8     know positively.

 9        Q.   Dragan Nikolic pled guilty to crimes in Susica, and you -- you

10     saw him torturing and nearly killing a prisoner in Susica, isn't it?

11        A.   I didn't see it.

12        Q.   We have a witness statement of a Muslim prisoner who was tortured

13     by Nikolic.  That person, a colleague of yours, with whom you had spent

14     years before the war guarding this same location, stated that when you

15     entered the new building while Dragan Nikolic was pushing gun to his

16     throat, Nikolic stopped, and he thinks that his life was saved.  Do you

17     remember this, Mr. Deuric?

18        A.   No.

19             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 24589, and not to be broadcast.  You

20     will see the first page of the statement and we need page 7.  Can we have

21     page 7?  Second-last paragraph in English and sixth last in B/C/S.

22        Q.   You can read it for yourself, Mr. Deuric.  The reality is,

23     Mr. Deuric, you knew that Dragan Nikolic tortured prisoners, and that was

24     committed by other guards as well, but you're simply not willing to tell

25     that to this Court, isn't it?  You see your name there.  It's like sixth

Page 33928

 1     paragraph from the bottom.  You read it?

 2             After the same page this witness refers to Veljko Basic and

 3     Slobodan Pajic, who, according to this witness, took a bus load of women

 4     and children out of Susica, and they were never returned.  You told us

 5     about Veljko Basic in your statement.  Slobodan Pajic was a VRS

 6     officer --

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Slobodan Pajic was a VRS officer who was present at Susica, isn't

 9     it?

10        A.   Yes.  Veljko Basic was the camp warden.  Dragan Nikolic --

11        Q.   Did you report to Slobodan Pajic?

12        A.   -- was trying to be imposing.  He had a finger in every pie.  I

13     was nobody.  I couldn't report.

14        Q.   Another witness, Mr. Deuric, saw you outside the new building

15     among Dragan Nikolic, Radenko Kovacevic, Goran Viskovic and

16     Predrag Bastah.  You were making lists of new prisoners and those who

17     were taken out for forced labour and exchange.  Do you remember this?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please establish first

19     whether the witness actually managed to read the paragraph where his name

20     can be found.  I don't think we were able to indicate to him clearly

21     where it was.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I think that's fair enough.  Mr. Robinson, did you

23     have an observation?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No, that was my exact point, that the witness

25     never had the opportunity to comment on the question that was put to him

Page 33929

 1     about that individual whose name appears in the statement.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MR. ZEC:  I thought it takes time for the witness to read and I

 4     wasn't sure whether he's reading.  I moved on, but we can certainly do

 5     that.  Can we go up the page.  Perhaps down.

 6        Q.   So this is the big paragraph in this statement when this

 7     colleague of yours said that Nikolic was pushing gun to his throat and

 8     you entered the big, new building.  Do you see that, Mr. Deuric?

 9        A.   I see it.

10        Q.   So do you remember this?

11        A.   I didn't see him put his rifle into his mouth, but I met Jenki on

12     his way out of the warehouse.

13        Q.   So you were in the new building --

14        A.   Perhaps he thought he saw me and then he went back.

15        Q.   And this is nothing of this is in your statement, Mr. Deuric.

16     You're telling us that now.

17        A.   You want me to recall it after 20 years?

18        Q.   As I mentioned to you, another witness saw you making list of

19     prisoners at Susica.  Do you remember doing that?

20        A.   Who made the list?  No.  I never did that.

21             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 24590.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps it should not be broadcast,

23     and we should establish whether the man -- the witness actually

24     recognises who the person giving this statement is that he referred to as

25     a friend.

Page 33930

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There was an overlap and

 2     we did not hear the witness.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before I clarify with the witness, what was the

 4     reason why we should not broadcast the previous document?

 5             MR. ZEC:  Simply out of abundance of caution with Mr. --

 6     Mr. President.  Simply we don't have any information about this witness.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Deuric, after Mr. Karadzic referred to "a

 8     friend," what did you say?  We didn't hear that because it was not

 9     interpreted.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know which friend.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The one who --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let's proceed.

14             MR. ZEC:  Can we blow up the bottom of this page.

15        Q.   Do you see now your name?  It says Momir -- Deuric Momir, known

16     as Momo, Kovacevic Radenko, Viskovic Goran, Predrag Bastah.  And after

17     that?

18        A.   I see it.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid we need to show the

20     witness the first statement first and then the second so that he would

21     know who provided that statement.  The witness didn't see who the person

22     is that is being referred to as friend and now he doesn't seem to know

23     who it is who actually entered.

24             MR. ZEC:  I said several times.  This is another witness from the

25     previous, and it was on the screen.

Page 33931

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we show the top part of the statement or

 2     official record.

 3             MR. ZEC:

 4        Q.   Do you see the name, very first line in this paragraph?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  What was your question, Mr. Zec?

 6             MR. ZEC:

 7        Q.   Mr. Deuric, after reading this statement, can you confirm that

 8     you were making lists of prisoners at Susica?

 9        A.   No.

10        Q.   You know that Predrag Bastah and Goran Viskovic were convicted

11     before the Court of BiH for crimes committed at Vlasenica and Susica, do

12     you?

13        A.   I know that.

14             MR. ZEC:  Can we have 65 ter 24609.

15        Q.   In front of you, Mr. Deuric, there will be the verdict of the

16     Court of BiH against the accused Predrag Bastah and Goran Viskovic.  This

17     verdict was confirmed by the Appeals Chamber before the Court of BiH on

18     22nd February 2011.  Veljko Basic was included in this trial and, due to

19     his health, his case was separated.  According to this verdict,

20     Predrag Bastah was member of reserve police in Vlasenica and

21     Goran Viskovic was member of the VRS.  The court has found that the

22     accused were guilty for a number of crimes including those committed in

23     Susica in June and July 1992.  They were found guilty for taking Susica

24     prisoners away, many of whom are still missing.  Goran Viskovic was also

25     found guilty for taking prisoners away to perform forced labour and for

Page 33932

 1     the rape of one of the female prisoners.  According to the verdict, the

 2     Susica guards were present while these crimes were taking place.

 3             Mr. Deuric, the reality is that the members of the VRS, police

 4     and guards committed numerous crimes against the Susica prisoners, isn't

 5     it?

 6        A.   It is so.  But all sorts of stories went around.  The rumour had

 7     it that --

 8        Q.   Mr. Deuric, I'm referring what the judgement says.  Can you

 9     confirm that?  And you were there.  You can confirm that?

10             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I tender this verdict.

11             JUDGE KWON:  If you asked a question, let's hear him out.

12             Do you confirm, Mr. Deuric, that --

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I heard of murders, but I

14     wasn't present.  Let me tell you something else.  People said that

15     certain people were killed, and then a month later, I would see the

16     person in question alive.  People said that he or she tried to escape and

17     was killed, and later on that person reappeared in the camp.

18             Now, what sort of truth is that, and how should I believe it,

19     because I could hear people talking.

20             MR. ZEC:

21        Q.   I'm simply asking you what you saw.

22             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I would tender --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I only say what I saw.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Mr. Robinson.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We don't have any objection

Page 33933

 1     to pages 1 through 12 of that document being admitted.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit it.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6132, Your Honours.

 4             MR. ZEC:

 5        Q.   Mr. Deuric, I would like to ask you about the conversation that

 6     you claim you had with Dragan Nikolic on the day of the funeral.  You

 7     know that Dragan Nikolic pled guilty before this Tribunal for crimes

 8     committed at Susica.  Do you know that?  At --

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   At his sentencing hearing, Witness Habiba Hadzic testified that

11     she had lost her two sons at Susica, Enes and Bernes Hadzic.  During her

12     testimony she asked Dragan to tell her where her two sons were buried so

13     at least she can find and bury them with dignity.  This is at transcript

14     page 247 of the Nikolic trial.  Dragan Nikolic spoke shortly after her

15     plea.  He said that Enes and Bernes were taken from Susica on

16     30th September in a group of 40 other prisoners to Debelo Brdo.  They

17     were liquidated in that area so they could have been buried there.  This

18     is at transcript page 256 and 257.

19             Mr. Deuric, the remaining prisoners of Susica were killed on

20     30th September 1992, after which the camp was closed.  That's correct,

21     isn't it?

22        A.   At the funeral when I was there on the 29th of September, two

23     nephews and the son of two relatives were killed.  Dragan Nikolic caught

24     up with me when I was going home after the funeral.  He says there's no

25     one left at Susica.  Everybody had been taken for an exchange.  I did not

Page 33934

 1     answer anything, nor did I go back to Susica on the 26th of September.

 2     When that thing happened I went to the front line, and until the 29th, I

 3     did not even know that my nephews and relatives had been killed.  And

 4     then I asked for a vehicle to go to the funeral, and I was late for the

 5     funeral.  It was already underway.

 6             Now, what happened with those people who were left in Susica, I

 7     don't know.  I did not ask him.  I was in mourning.  I wasn't thinking of

 8     anything else.

 9        Q.   So I take it you didn't make any further inquiries after that.

10     You didn't go to Susica.  You went to Cerska?

11        A.   I went to Susica towards the end of 1994 from the front line,

12     again to guard the TO building.

13        Q.   And this is in your statement, yes.

14             MR. ZEC:  Can we have P40 -- P04856, e-court page 29.  And at

15     this page you will be able to see victims from Vlasenica, most of them

16     Susica victims.  In the middle of the page there are the names of

17     Ms. Hadzic's sons.  Enes was found in gravesite at Pelemis in 2004.

18     Bernes is still missing.  In this list there are names of other Susica

19     prisoners, some of whom were found in a grave site at Ogradica in 2003.

20             Do you know, Mr. Deuric, that Susica prisoners were buried at

21     these locations after they were killed?

22        A.   No.  No, I was not aware of that.

23        Q.   Do you perhaps know of any other location where Susica prisoners

24     were buried?

25        A.   I can't say anything that I don't know.  I just don't know.

Page 33935

 1        Q.   That's fine.  You told us that you had participated in the VRS

 2     combat operations at Cerska and Kravica in March 1993.  You say that a

 3     group of Muslim fighters was stationed at mountain Udrc.  You also --

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Did you also -- did you also know that the Muslim civilians from

 6     the enclaves passed over this area on their way towards Tuzla?  Did you

 7     know that?

 8        A.   Yes.  From Cerska they were on their way to Kladanj, as far as I

 9     know.  And from Kladanj to Cerska and Srebrenica.

10        Q.   And, in fact, the VRS units attacked and shelled these Muslim

11     columns, civilians, who were passing over Udrc, didn't they?

12        A.   Those who got out of Udrc, the Muslims, they attacked people from

13     Krajina, and two people -- 12 people from Krajina were killed, and it is

14     said that two Muslims were in that Krajina Brigade and that they got

15     killed, too, and they were butchered, mutilated.

16        Q.   This is in your statement.

17             MR. ZEC:  Can we have P04252, which is a combat report of

18     2nd March 1993, in which the command of the Zvornik Brigade informs the

19     Drina Corps command that around 8 hours 30 minutes, columns of civilians

20     and soldiers with pack animals were noticed from Udrc to -- and Rasevo

21     towards Konjevic Polje.  The columns were hit with every available

22     weapon.  This is in the first paragraph.

23        Q.   The reality is, Mr. Deuric, that the VRS shelled and attacked the

24     columns of civilian -- Muslim civilians, isn't it?

25        A.   I did not understand.  Which year was that?

Page 33936

 1        Q.   This is Udrc, Udrc mountain that you say --

 2        A.   1993?

 3        Q.   March 1993.  Correct.

 4        A.   I don't know about that.  I was there in Cerska at the time when

 5     those men from the Krajina Brigade were killed.  Now, what was going on

 6     over there, I don't know.

 7        Q.   And then you say you were fighting in Kravica, and your task at

 8     Kravica was to capture Kravica.  That's correct?

 9        A.   When we crossed over there, there were no Muslims there.  Kravica

10     was held there until Christmas.  We stayed there for seven or ten days in

11     a place called Siljkovici, overlooking Kravica.  That's when we found out

12     that there's nothing left at Kravica.  Everything was destroyed or had

13     burned.  We were looking for the church from the hilltop, looking to see

14     if the church was destroyed too.  And then we returned on the 21st of

15     March because we got orders not to continue towards Srebrenica.  We

16     returned to Vlasenica and I was assigned to the Kladanj theatre, place

17     called Cestane [phoen] --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Zec, I wonder if you could conclude very soon.

19     In terms of planning for the day, how much longer do you need?

20             MR. ZEC:  I will have one document to show the witness and I'll

21     conclude.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             MR. ZEC:

24        Q.   And while you were in Kravica, the VRS soldiers that you

25     co-ordinated your activities, among them there was this battalion from

Page 33937

 1     the 1st Krajina Corps and there was special unit commanded by Mauzer.

 2     That's correct?

 3        A.   I think so.  I know only for sure about the people from the

 4     Krajina Corps.  As for Mauzer, some people said that there was also his

 5     unit there, but I was not anywhere in the vicinity.  I'm not sure.

 6             MR. ZEC:  And can we have 65 ter 09320.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] While we're waiting, may I be of

 8     assistance with the transcript.  On page 95, line 14, the witness did not

 9     say they were returning from Srebrenica from Kladanj, only to Cerska.

10     And on page 96, line 18, and the witness said luckily -- or it's almost a

11     miracle the church was not destroyed.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  We could not catch what the witness said.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We were just looking from a

14     distance of a kilometre or two through the woods.  We did not come close

15     to see the church well enough, but all the other buildings had burnt

16     down.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please proceed.

18             MR. ZEC:

19        Q.   Mr. Deuric, on the screen it's an order issued by the Drina Corps

20     command pursuant to the military operation called Udar.  Under 3 -- 2 --

21     5.3, it provides that the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, a battalion of

22     the 1st KK - if we can have 5.3, Mr. Registrar - and the

23     3rd Infantry Battalion were to attack along the villages of Banovici,

24     Gornja Bacici and Kravica in order to crush the enemy and capture

25     Kravica.  Also to carry out operations in co-ordination with the special

Page 33938

 1     operations brigade commanded by Mauzer.  You told us that Kravica was the

 2     area where you were deployed.  This is correct, isn't it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   You -- you were with the 3rd Infantry Battalion from Vlasenica

 5     fighting along with the soldiers from the 1st Krajina Corps.  That's also

 6     what you already told us.  That's correct, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Commander Mauzer from this order is Ljubisa Savic, also known as

 9     Mauzer from Bijeljina.  That's correct, isn't it?

10        A.   Yes.

11             MR. ZEC:  Your Honours, I would offer this document into

12     evidence.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will receive it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6133, Your Honour.

17             MR. ZEC:  I conclude my examination.  Thank you.

18             Thank you, Mr. Deuric.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Can you conclude in five minutes?

20             THE ACCUSED:  Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure how this line 6 was

23     interpreted to the witness.  It says here you were in the 3rd

24     Infantry Battalion from Vlasenica fighting along with the soldiers from

25     the 1st Krajina Corps.  Whereas the witness got interpretation that he


Page 33939

 1     was in the 1st Battalion, so I'm afraid confusion may arise.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Could you tell us, Mr. Deuric, in which

 4     battalion, which unit were you?

 5        A.   I was in the Vlasenica battalion.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Was Mauzer in contact with your unit?

 7        A.   No, he was not.  I don't even know whether he was there at the

 8     time.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Whose settlement is Kravica?  Who lives there, in the

10     majority of almost 100 per cent?

11        A.   One hundred per cent Serbs, I believe.

12        Q.   Thank you.  At Udrc were there civilians based there?  Which

13     Muslims were at Udrc?

14        A.   A group came down from Udrc to the first village next door,

15     Babici, and that's where the members of the 1st Krajina Corps were, and

16     they killed them.  And we got down along the whole length of Cerska.  We

17     didn't find anyone, no women, no children, no fighting men, no one.  They

18     were in hiding in the woods, and they committed this massacre in Udrc.

19        Q.   Did you say they captured and killed them there?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Captured was not recorded.  So they took them captive, and then

22     massacred them.

23        A.   Yes, including those two Muslims who were members of the

24     Krajina Brigade.  They butchered them, really.

25        Q.   Just one more question.  Wire was mentioned around the TO depot,

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 1     barbed wire.  When was it put up and for what reason?

 2        A.   The barbed wire fence was put up on -- in 1976 when we came from

 3     Piskavica to Susica.  We took it from the Elastik factory, and we took

 4     this used wire to make the fence.

 5        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Deuric.  I have no more questions.

 6        A.   I would like to add something I forgot to say before.  When

 7     Rogosija was attacked, it was a massacre.  My elder nephew was

 8     unrecognisable, unidentifiable.  He was burned, genitals were cut off.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Deuric.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This man Jankovic --

11             JUDGE KWON:  I think that's sufficient.  We should stop here

12     today, and that concludes your evidence.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  On behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your

15     coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you're free to go.

16             We will rise all together and continue tomorrow morning at 9.00.

17     The hearing is adjourned.

18                           [The witness withdrew]

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.48 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 19th day

21                           of February, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.