130220ED

Page 34056

1 A. Yes.

2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this bundle

3 under Rule 92 ter, please.

4 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.

5 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We're tendering 16 associated

6 exhibits, two of which we would ask for permission to add to our

7 65 ter list. I think the Registry knows which 16 they are, but if you

8 would like me to go through each one.

9 JUDGE KWON: I was informed that you're not tendering any

10 exhibits that were referred to in paragraph 22.

11 MR. ROBINSON: That's correct.

12 JUDGE KWON: Then para 22 will be redacted?

13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.

14 JUDGE KWON: And are there any other associated exhibits that you

15 are not tendering? Shall we take a look at 1D8676 and 1D8677, which are

16 referred to in paragraph 24. I'm not sure if witness's -- witness has

17 made a specific comment about the document, and I take it that the

18 paragraph could be understood without these documents.

19 MR. ROBINSON: Well, that's certainly up to you, Mr. President,

20 if you believe that it's not an essential part of the statement. We

21 could either lead it live or dispense with it.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

23 MR. NICHOLLS: Sorry to interrupt, Your Honours. Good morning,

24 Your Honours. If I could weigh in. I would prefer that -- my view is

25 that the statement is more comprehensible with those judgements, 8676 and

Page 34057

1 8677, because they --

2 JUDGE KWON: So you would like to leave them in.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: Yes, Your Honour.

4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. And in case of 65 ter 2264 referred to

5 in para 27, I take it that you are tendering only those articles referred

6 to, not in its entirety.

7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President.

8 JUDGE KWON: And one other clarification is 65 ter 18996,

9 referred to in paras 26 and 27. Are you tendering it separately or are

10 you going to attach it to the pre-existing B/C/S version?

11 MR. ROBINSON: Yes. It's already admitted as an exhibit, 82603,

12 so we're not tendering that.

13 JUDGE KWON: So with respect to the remaining associated

14 exhibits, Mr. Nicholls, do you have any objections?

15 MR. NICHOLLS: No, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE KWON: So I take it there's understanding what exhibits are

17 actually tendered, and then that can be sorted out later on. So shall we

18 give the exhibit number for the Rule 92 ter statement of this witness.

19 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honour, 1D7233 will be Exhibit D2986.

20 JUDGE KWON: Then other 14 associated exhibits will be admitted

21 into evidence and be given numbers in due course.

22 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

23 JUDGE KWON: I should have said 16. Yes, please continue,

24 Mr. Karadzic.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And that will be the Defence

Page 34058

1 Exhibit 3002. Thank you, Your Excellencies.

2 Now I would like to read the summary of the statement of the

3 president of the Supreme Military Court of Republika Srpska,

4 Mr. Novak Todorovic.

5 [In English] Novak Todorovic was the president of the

6 Supreme Military Court during the war. He finished the military academy

7 in Belgrade and law school in Sarajevo, where he passed his bar exam.

8 During his career, he was aspirant at Military Court in Sarajevo and in a

9 civil municipal and regional court in Sarajevo. He was an investigative

10 judge of the Military Court in Sarajevo from 1966 to 1968. After that,

11 he became Deputy Military Prosecutor. From 1982 to 1992, he had a law

12 firm in Belgrade. He was also the ambassador of the B and H in India

13 from 1998 to 2001.

14 Novak Todorovic was appointed president of the

15 Supreme Military Court in 1992. He was asked because there had been a

16 problem establishing the military justice system. A number of officers

17 who worked in the military prosecutor's office in Sarajevo left for

18 Serbia when the war started, and the military courts and prosecutor's

19 office needed to be urgently organised and there were no personnel. He

20 was persuaded to take up this position and was appointed by the

21 presidential decree.

22 Supplies and staff were required, and many of the prosecutors

23 hired were inexperienced. The military justice system also had to be

24 established, and the regulations were based upon the Belgrade basic

25 regulations. From then on, the court was slowly developed and the

Page 34059

1 remaining positions were filled. The judges were tasked with preparing

2 guidelines for criminal prosecution with special emphasis on the

3 treatment of prisoners of war, observing the Geneva Conventions. As the

4 war continued, the caseload increased.

5 Dr. Karadzic insisted on the independence of the justice system.

6 He agreed with Novak Todorovic that members of the prosecutor's office

7 and judges should not be members of the SDS, and also insisted that the

8 justice system had to be just and in accordance with the law and any

9 deviation would be dealt with swiftly. Neither Dr. Karadzic nor anyone

10 from the Presidency or from his office called to intervene in a case or

11 called on someone's behalf. Novak Todorovic was completely independent

12 in his work. There were no interventions or interference in his work

13 from military or civilian authorities. Dr. Karadzic further requested

14 that the judgements of the military justice system should be written or

15 spoken about to make people aware of its existence and the need to obey

16 the law.

17 The military courts were governed by a number of different laws

18 to control their work. The Republika Srpska president was responsible

19 for the appointment of military judges and prosecutors. However,

20 Novak Todorovic is not aware of the president rejecting any proposal.

21 The courts could not act on anything without a request being made by the

22 prosecutor, who was acting only on the basis of a criminal report made by

23 either the civilian or military police. Investigations could be

24 completed at the request of prosecution before an indictment is drawn up.

25 The prosecutor had the ability to discontinue the process -- proceedings

Page 34060

1 at any time and without requiring authority from the court.

2 In Novak Djokovic's practice -- Novak Todorovic's practice, he

3 did not encounter a single case involving Serbs accused of serious crimes

4 being released from prison or detention to return to their original

5 units, and he never spoke to anyone who may exert influence over him in

6 this respect. Each case was treated fairly, no matter of the ethnicity

7 of the victim or perpetrator. In one instance, Novak Todorovic recalls a

8 Serb's sentence being increased from 12 to 14 years on appeal, whereas in

9 another matter, the convictions against a large group of Muslims were

10 quashed as the evidence was not clear or reliable. Muslims, Croats, and

11 Serbs were all tried at the Military Court, and a number of Serbs were

12 tried for serious crimes including rape and murder. No difference were

13 made between victims of different ethnicities and witnesses of different

14 ethnicities. Novak Todorovic recalls an appeal that was dismissed as the

15 grounds were not strong enough as it relied upon the argument that the

16 witness was Muslim and therefore her testimony was not reliable.

17 All cases were documented and all matters launched during the war

18 which had not been concluded continued after the war, including those

19 against the Serbs. Novak Todorovic was aware that the Muslim side did

20 not process serious crimes committed by the member of the BH Army against

21 Serbian civilians. The Serbian judiciary gathered sufficient evidence

22 about a number of Muslim perpetrators who lived in Muslim-controlled

23 territory but were therefore inaccessible to Serbian law. Even after the

24 perpetrators appeared on television they were not charged.

25 Novak Todorovic does not consider Dr. Karadzic to have usurped

Page 34061

1 the judiciary by placing the military system -- judicial system and

2 prosecutor's office under his direct jurisdiction as this was a temporary

3 measure until the final acceptance and the adoption of regulations which

4 was completed in December 1993. The president was responsible for

5 disciplinary offences and a number of crimes also qualified as

6 disciplinary offences. Further, there was a rebellion of part of the VRS

7 in Banja Luka at the time and the order was passed, and therefore the

8 president would be aware that the military police were not functioning

9 either and there was a danger of a military coup. There was no intention

10 to usurp the powers of the courts demonstrated when Dr. Karadzic did not

11 oppose the decision to relocate the military prosecutor's office to

12 Zvornik and create distance between the judiciary and civilian and

13 military authorities.

14 [Interpretation] This is the brief summary of

15 Mr. Novak Todorovic's statement. We don't have questions for

16 Mr. Todorovic at this point. I apologise about Djokovic. He's number

17 one in tennis, so he's always being talked about.

18 JUDGE KWON: Well, Mr. Todorovic --

19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Go ahead, Mr. President.

20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. As you have noted, we have admitted your

21 evidence in chief in the form of written statement in lieu of your oral

22 testimony. I wonder whether you had such system in your Military Court,

23 but that's our system at the moment. You'll now be cross-examined by the

24 representative of the Office of the Prosecutor, Mr. Julian Nicholls.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Mr. President.

Page 34065

1 jurisdiction other than the case that Mr. Karadzic mentioned. There was

2 this group from Banja Luka which was sentenced by the first instance

3 court.

4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not understand what the

5 witness said.

6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So that you're not going to find --

7 we did not have access to, and we were not able to try the other side.

8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the last sentence.

9 MR. NICHOLLS:

10 Q. Let me -- could you repeat your last sentence, please. The

11 interpreters didn't hear you. It's probably my fault.

12 A. We could not try military personnel, because that is in the

13 jurisdiction of the military courts for military crimes for those who

14 were in Croatia or in the territory of the federation. We were more

15 involved in trials of soldiers of Republika Srpska. I don't know --

16 Q. Let me stop you and be more precise.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the transcript, line 24, it was

18 not recorded that the witness said, "We returned that judgement and then

19 in the end they were acquitted."

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is in the case of Kovacevic

21 and others from Banja Luka.

22 MR. NICHOLLS:

23 Q. Yeah. I believe that was a case of armed rebellion, but let me

24 continue. What I'm talking about is prosecutions under Article 142, war

25 crimes against the civilian population. Do you remember that Article?

Page 34066

1 A. Of course I'm familiar with the Article.

2 Q. Okay. Let me ask you another question.

3 A. I know it -- what it refers to.

4 Q. Thank you. That was the answer. I asked you if you remembered

5 it and you said, "Of course."

6 Now, I don't want to go through them, but in the Banja Luka

7 Military Court, let's see if this refreshes your memory, in their

8 register, that's P03607, I just looked quickly through it, not the whole

9 thing, but I saw that there were records for war crimes under

10 Article 142. Entry number 9, Jozo Baric, an HVO member. Number 55,

11 Davnor Glasnovic [phoen], Croat, HVO member.

12 JUDGE KWON: By the way, if you are going to hear the witness's

13 response, why don't we show him the document?

14 MR. NICHOLLS: I -- I'm just trying to spark his memory,

15 Your Honour. I don't have that one loaded up. It's in a format that we

16 can't show in English in e-court because it's so huge. At the moment

17 we're still working on that.

18 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Let's continue.

19 MR. NICHOLLS:

20 Q. Do you remember if the Banja Luka Military Court prosecuted HVO

21 members and Green Beret members for crimes under Article 142? If you

22 don't remember, that's okay.

23 A. I do not recall that. I do not. I would certainly have

24 remembered it had a case like that come before the

25 Supreme Military Court, because I was president of the Chamber in all

Page 34067

1 appeal cases. Perhaps there may have been some such cases which had not

2 reached the Supreme Court. Perhaps if we looked into the case file, we

3 might be able to establish that.

4 Q. Okay. So let me see if I understand your answer there. Are you

5 saying you don't know what was going on in the Banja Luka Military Court

6 unless the cases reached you on appeal? You're not aware of what the

7 situation was in the Banja Luka Military Court in 1992 and 1993?

8 A. Yes. I don't know about this case.

9 Q. Okay. Let me ask you about another case. Do you recall hearing

10 at an time about the massacre of 80 civilians in Velagici on

11 June 1st, 1992? That's Kljuc.

12 A. In Kljuc? I don't know.

13 Q. That doesn't ring a bell?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay. All right. Well, let's bring up a document, P03513, and

16 what I'm going to show you now, sir, and put to you is the case we're

17 going to look at, Amidzic and others, is the only time that the VRS

18 Military Court prosecuted a VRS soldier for war crimes against the

19 civilian population under Article 142. And I use the word "prosecute"

20 rather loosely.

21 Now, take a look at this, sir, if you could. Can you read the

22 screen? Is it okay for you?

23 A. It would be better if we could zoom in.

24 Q. Okay. Maybe we --

25 A. This serves a request by the military prosecutor to an

Page 34068

1 investigating judge to conduct an investigation.

2 Q. Right. And we can see --

3 A. Can we go to the next page? We have six accused.

4 Q. And just as we're going, this is 8 March 19 --

5 A. I don't have the next page.

6 Q. There you go.

7 A. Twelve; right?

8 Q. Correct. And it's 8 March 1993.

9 A. The 1st of June, 1992.

10 Q. I'll read it out, the paragraph at the bottom --

11 A. Is there anything else, page 3, perhaps, so that I can see who

12 signed it?

13 Q. Let's stay here. All right. The bottom of page 2.

14 On 1st of June, 1992, a group of 80 civilians were brought to the

15 check-point in the village of Velagici - Kljuc - for identification, and

16 then it continues on about how these 80 civilians were killed. For time,

17 I don't want to go through all the details.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go to page 3, please.

19 Q. And if you see at the top of the page, it was suggested that this

20 was a war -- that these VRS soldiers be prosecuted for committing a war

21 crime against the civilian population under Article 142, signed by

22 Captain Zoran Babic. Take your time to look at it.

23 A. What is the date of this request?

24 Q. The date of this request, it's on page 1, 8 March 1993, for the

25 crime that was committed on the 1st June of 1992.

Page 34069

1 Now, having read the request for the investigation about this

2 murder of 80 civilians by the VRS and the request for an investigation

3 under Article 142, do you remember now whether you ever heard anything

4 about this case?

5 A. Now I remember that since this is in 1993. I don't remember

6 anything from 1992. But this probably involved the exhumation of a

7 grave, where the victims were found in it. Deputy military prosecutor in

8 Banja Luka requested an investigation against these people. Perhaps

9 because an investigation could not be carried out and they were out of

10 reach, nothing was done -- nothing much was done, because not even the

11 first instance judgement was rendered, let alone hearing the case on

12 appeal.

13 Q. Okay. Well, that was total speculation on your part, because

14 this crime was not discovered by the finding of a mass grave. This crime

15 was known about as it happened, immediately. I don't really have the

16 time to go through all of the facts of this case, but I think I can show

17 you something that will show you that your speculation there was wrong.

18 MR. NICHOLLS: Could we go to P03614.

19 Q. I didn't think I'd have to show you this, but let's look at it.

20 And while it's coming up, I'll just say for the record this is a

21 document dated 12th of June, 1992, i.e., 11 days after the war crime, and

22 it's a handwritten complaint about illegal detention from the accused in

23 this case to General Talic, who you probably remember was commander of

24 the 1st Krajina Corps.

25 So take a look at that where they ask to be released, these

Page 34070

1 suspects. Now, that shows you, doesn't it, that immediately or shortly

2 after the crime, in fact, the suspects were brought into custody and were

3 held in custody, because they're asking the corps commander to intervene

4 to get them released; right?

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] An intervention for the transcript.

6 To release doesn't mean to set free. Release means let someone out, and

7 to set free is a -- within the judicial remit.

8 MR. NICHOLLS: It's a totally, totally, totally inappropriate

9 intervention, I would say, Your Honour. To release, set free, we are

10 talking about let them out of gaol, however you want to characterize it.

11 That's obvious.

12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, no, it's --

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is receiving that

14 interpretation "to set them free," because it was simply being

15 misinterpreted. It turns out as if the witness was supposed to discuss

16 their release --

17 MR. NICHOLLS: I can clear this up --

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- or rather their being freed.

19 JUDGE KWON: Because the witness is able to read that letter, so

20 let's continue.

21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yeah. [Interpretation] May I respond?

22 MR. NICHOLLS:

23 Q. Can I -- sorry, sorry?

24 A. [No interpretation]. [In English] I understood you.

25 Q. Yeah, thank you --

Page 34071

1 A. Just want to --

2 MR. NICHOLLS: One correction for the transcript, when I asked my

3 question before the accused -- before Mr. Karadzic intervened, the

4 witness said yes. That's what I heard on the transcript, he said "Da."

5 Q. So let me ask the question again and you can explain.

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. The suspects were brought into custody at sometime shortly after

8 the crime, and they asked the corps commander to have them released, set

9 free, however you want to call it, that they not be in prison any longer;

10 correct?

11 A. [Interpretation] It's like this: This is probably true and

12 accurate. Things probably developed that way. However, at that time,

13 first of all, I was not in RS territory. Second of all, the courts were

14 not up and running yet. It was at the beginning of the war still. This

15 appeal -- or, actually complaint to General Talic, because they obviously

16 asked the corps commander to be released. They were probably held in

17 military detention, because the courts were still not operational at the

18 time. I said that in my statement. I arrived in the summer of 1992, and

19 the first courts began being established in that autumn. As of 1993, we

20 were up and running.

21 This was not a court case, and that's why it was not heard before

22 the Supreme Military Court. That's why there was no trial judgement.

23 It's still the beginning of the war. They were in some sort of military

24 detention where they had been placed by their military commander, I

25 presume.

Page 34072

1 Q. All right. Well let me ask you this before we move on and --

2 A. As for the request for investigation, I see it was submitted in

3 1993 in order to have it investigated, and then nothing follows, meaning

4 that there was no judgement, no one was sentenced. I don't know what

5 happened. I presume that the prisoners were exchanged or something. I

6 don't know.

7 Q. Well, I'll -- you'll learn a little bit more about this case in

8 the next couple questions, but let me ask you this as president of the

9 Supreme Military Court: Even if the courts were not up and running, is

10 the proper legal thing to do when -- when a group of soldiers have been

11 arrested for killing 80 civilians, is the proper thing to do to just

12 release them? Is that lawful in the VRS?

13 A. No, it is not lawful.

14 Q. Thank you.

15 A. Absolutely not.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 00904, please. Sorry, e-court

17 page 14 of the English and 13 of the Serbian original.

18 Q. Now, this is the 20th of July, 1993. The Military Court in

19 Banja Luka. The military courts are up and running. By your testimony

20 they have been since the previous September. And it's an order for

21 detention, same case, Goran Amidzic and others for war crimes under

22 Article 142, and you can see another provision I'm sure you remember,

23 that it's mentioned is compulsory pursuant to Article 191, paragraph 1 on

24 the Law on Criminal Procedures.

25 So this is correct, isn't it? It's -- it's an order to impose

Page 34073

1 detention --

2 A. This was a decision of the first instance Military Court in

3 Banja Luka on detention against two people.

4 Q. Two of the suspects.

5 A. I see that.

6 Q. Yes.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: May I admit that, please, Your Honour? Or may I

8 tender that, rather.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 THE REGISTRAR: Examine P6143, Your Honours.

11 MR. ROBINSON: Your Honour, just for clarification, are we just

12 tendering that page? It's a 77-page --

13 MR. NICHOLLS: Just the order for detention which is two pages of

14 English, one page of Serbian.

15 JUDGE KWON: We'll do so, yes.

16 MR. NICHOLLS:

17 Q. All right. That's 20th of July. Let's move forward nine days,

18 P03616. This is -- while it's coming up, you remember Srboljub

19 Jovicinac, don't you?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. He wasn't young and inexperienced, was he? He was a good

22 prosecutor?

23 A. Well, I always had my opinion concerning Jovicinac, but it's not

24 relevant here.

25 Q. Okay. Just take a quick look at this. It's a proposal 29 July

Page 34074

1 1993.

2 A. He is addressing the Military Court asking to halt any

3 investigations.

4 Q. Yes, exactly.

5 A. Yes, I've read it.

6 Q. So the military prosecutor is proposing to halt the

7 investigations until further notice and to release two of the accused

8 from custody, and I won't go into all the reasons now. Correct?

9 A. That's what it says.

10 Q. All right. Now, you didn't know anything about this before I

11 showed you this document; right? Is that my understanding?

12 A. No.

13 Q. All right.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: That's 65 ter -- I thought this was an exhibit.

15 00904 again, please. E-court page 10 in English, 9 in Serbian.

16 Q. While it's coming up, this is --

17 A. Can we zoom in?

18 Q. Yes. This is the same day, 29 July 1993, an order terminating

19 detention for the same two suspects and ordering their immediate release,

20 signed by investigative judge Nikola Tomasevic.

21 A. Yes. The investigating judge. Since the prosecutor wanted the

22 case to be dropped, the investigating judge agreed.

23 Q. Yeah, but he didn't need to, did he? That's in paragraph 14 of

24 your statement. The judges do not need to follow the recommendation of

25 the prosecutor to release; right?

Page 34075

1 A. Yes, of course.

2 Q. Okay. Now, in an interview, Srboljub Jovicinac agreed that this

3 case and the release of these men and the stopping of the investigation

4 represented a massive failure of justice. You would agree with that,

5 wouldn't you, that what I've just shown you represents a massive failure

6 of justice by the Military Court you were president of?

7 A. I'm really not aware of any details. The case did not reach the

8 Supreme Court, as I've said. I simply don't know. I didn't take part in

9 the proceedings, and there were many cases. There were four courts of

10 first instance, and the Banja Luka one had a significant case load. I

11 don't know. One would need to look into the reasons first.

12 Q. Well, it definitely had a significant case load and if I have

13 time I will go through some more of those cases with you. But I'm

14 putting it to you that the case we've seen, Amidzic and others, was the

15 first, the last, the only attempt at prosecution of VRS soldiers for war

16 crimes against the civilian population under Article 142 for the entire

17 war. Can you show me one other case?

18 A. There were other cases, quite a few.

19 Q. Name one, please. Show me one.

20 A. In principle I don't remember names, but I recall a case from

21 Grbavica.

22 Q. Let me -- let me stop you one second and be very clear. I'm not

23 trying to stop you from answering. I am not talking about prosecution

24 for murder under Article 36, mass murder under Article 36. I'm talking

25 about prosecutions for war crimes against the civilian population under

Page 34076

1 Article 142. Please continue.

2 A. I don't know. I think -- well, I told you that in 99 per cent of

3 the cases, the accused were members of the VRS, that is to say, military

4 personnel who had committed certain crimes.

5 Q. I'm sorry to stop you --

6 A. The victims were --

7 Q. I'm not asking about the proportion. I understand that, that in

8 99 per cent of the cases it was persons of Serb ethnicity who were

9 prosecuted. I'm not asking you about that.

10 A. [In English] Yes.

11 Q. I'm asking you, and then I'll move on, if you can recall any

12 other case in which the VRS Military Court during the war prosecuted Serb

13 soldiers, VRS soldiers, for crimes -- for war crimes against the civilian

14 population under Article 142. And just try to make it yes or no, if you

15 remember any others or if you don't.

16 A. [Interpretation] No. No. We didn't have that.

17 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. May I tender that document, please,

18 although I say I did think it was an exhibit, but I don't see it.

19 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit page 10 -- or shall we add it to the

20 P6143.

21 MR. NICHOLLS: It should be pages 10 to 11, please, Your Honour,

22 in the English.

23 JUDGE KWON: Separately. Or shall we add those pages to the

24 document we admitted today earlier on.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I think that makes sense. Thank you, Your Honour.

Page 34077

1 JUDGE KWON: Shall we do that. Yes. Those pages will be added

2 to Exhibit P6143.

3 MR. NICHOLLS:

4 Q. Now, my last question on the Velagici massacre and case. I'll

5 just put it to you that as far as we know in the OTP here, to this date

6 nobody's been prosecuted for that crime. Do you know if anybody has?

7 A. The mass crime on Serbs, against Serbs?

8 Q. No, the June 1st massacre of 80 civilians in Velagici, Goran

9 Amidzic and others, the case we've been looking at. I'm putting it to

10 you that, to this date, none of those accused who we saw write to

11 General Talic to ask to be let go has been prosecuted.

12 A. As far as I know, the case was never reopened, and it never

13 reached the Supreme Court, meaning that there was no continuation in the

14 proceedings. A court cannot try unless there is an indictment, much as

15 the cases here.

16 Q. Thank you, sir.

17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Nicholls, can I clarify with you one thing. You

18 referred to Article 36, murder and mass murder on the same Article. Is

19 it your case that there were cases against Serb soldiers, VRS members,

20 for committing these crimes against Muslim people, the killing of

21 Muslims?

22 MR. NICHOLLS: If you're asking were there cases of Serb soldiers

23 for committing crimes of murder under Article 36 against Muslims and

24 Croats, my case is that, yes, there were cases opened, investigated, and

25 begun, but that none of them were concluded or properly prosecuted during

Page 34078

1 the war unless the case involved Serb victims as well as Muslim or Croat

2 victims. That's my case, that there were certainly cases brought under

3 Article 36, but my case is that this was the only attempt to try cases --

4 a failed attempt to try Serb soldiers for a war crime and that all the

5 other cases, even with multiple victims of civilians, if they started,

6 were brought under Article 36.

7 JUDGE KWON: And to be clear, we have in our evidence Article 36

8 and 142. Otherwise, I'd like to have it admitted into evidence.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: I can bring up the Articles.

10 JUDGE KWON: Can you check it later?

11 MR. NICHOLLS: I can bring up the Articles now. Is that --

12 JUDGE KWON: Very well.

13 MR. NICHOLLS: 65 ter 2264, please. Pages 69 of the English,

14 66 of the Serbian. And this is Article 142, war crimes against a

15 civilian population. This is the 1990 Criminal Code of the SFRJ that was

16 used at the time.

17 JUDGE KWON: We admitted part of this Criminal Code as an

18 associated exhibit. What Article is it then, Article 201 and 217, yes.

19 So shall we add Article 36 and Article 142?

20 MR. NICHOLLS: Article 36 is in a different document,

21 Your Honour, which I can also bring up. This one would be Article 142,

22 and I agree that it would be good to add it.

23 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll add Article 142. Yes, let's proceed,

24 and I'd like you to tender, later on, the Article 36 you referred to.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: I'll just -- so I don't forget, I'll do it right

Page 34079

1 away, Your Honour. It's -- 24617 is the 65 ter number. English page 22,

2 Serbian page 24. And I'm sorry, I should say 24617A is a revised

3 translation of Article 36. That's the one we should admit.

4 THE WITNESS: Mr. President, can I give explanation?

5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Yes, by all means, but could you

6 wait a minute.

7 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

8 JUDGE KWON: And you also mentioned mass murder, Mr. Nicholls.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: What I meant was -- there's not an Article of

10 that. Article 36 --

11 MR. ROBINSON: Subsection (6).

12 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you. That's what I was looking for without

13 my glasses. Subsection (6) refers to two or more murders.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Yes, Mr. Todorovic. Did you want to say

15 something?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that it is not

17 correct that there were no completed cases where the victims were of a

18 different ethnicity. I'm just speaking off the top of my head, but I

19 remember a case from the Bijeljina court for the rape of a Muslim woman.

20 I remember a case of the killing of a Czech citizen from Grbavica. Then

21 there were robberies. All these cases had their epilogue at the

22 Supreme Court, and all the perpetrators were condemned. I remember an

23 exhumation of a mass grave also, but I don't think that that was in

24 Kljuc. It was somewhere in the Krajina where this Professor Stankovic

25 came to do the autopsies, where the Serbs were in the mass grave. This

Page 34080

1 was done.

2 But as for specific cases, we adhered right from my arrival to a

3 decision of the Assembly that, because there were no regulations of our

4 own, we were to implement the Criminal Codes and the Law on Criminal

5 Procedure of the SFRY, because that Yugoslav Criminal Law and Law on

6 Criminal Procedure were codified and harmonised according to

7 international law. Also, it included the provisions from the

8 Geneva Conventions. War crimes were dealt with there, respecting the

9 principle nullum crimen sine lege so we conducted our cases pursuant to

10 that law. You could not adopt a regulation and then try somebody, but

11 you had to apply the laws in effect at the time when the crime was done.

12 So it's not that these crimes were not dealt with.

13 As for war crimes, when nothing was processed, we didn't have any

14 investigations other than some charges about what the corps did at the

15 beginning of the war. There was some investigation conducted, but it

16 wasn't completed, so we couldn't do anything there because there was no

17 case that was initiated.

18 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. The issue will be brought up later on

19 without doubt.

20 Shall we admit this Article 36 as Exhibit P6144. Yes. Please

21 continue, Mr. Nicholls.

22 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, if I could just for my planning, I

23 think I have about 20 minutes more. I wonder if I could ask for another

24 15 to 20 minutes. If not, I'll have to adjust my cross.

25 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's see how it evolves. Please continue.

Page 34081

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Okay. Thank you.

2 Q. I want to go quickly through another part of your statement,

3 paragraph 14. You said:

4 "Persons accused of serious crimes which constitute a threat to

5 society such as murder will be remanded in custody until the end of the

6 trial. Even if the Prosecutor were to request a release from custody, in

7 such cases the Court would be under no obligation to approve it."

8 I put it to you that that is a completely false statement as it

9 applies, for instance, to the Banja Luka Military Court. Now, one way to

10 shorten this, if you'll agree with me that you have no idea whether or

11 not the Banja Luka Military Court released persons charged with murder

12 under Article 36 to go back to their units when the victims were Muslims,

13 you don't know whether that was the case or not, we can move on.

14 A. I don't know.

15 Q. You don't know what the practice was there. Okay. That will

16 speed things up.

17 In paragraph 19 you say:

18 "In other words, if a Serb killed a Serb, he would have been

19 sentenced to the same or similar crime as a Serb who killed a Muslim or a

20 Croat for the same crime."

21 I'm putting to you again, that's not -- that's not a true

22 statement. That's not a correct statement as it applies to the

23 Banja Luka Military Court and other military courts. Are you seriously

24 saying that the sentences were the same for soldiers who killed other

25 Serb soldiers as they were for Serb soldiers who killed Muslim or Croat

Page 34082

1 civilians?

2 A. I am saying that, absolutely, seriously, and truthfully. I

3 always abided by the principle that I was blind to ethnicity as far as a

4 criminal was concerned. I was blind to religion or anything else. A

5 crime is usually committed for some pathological reasons, out of some

6 interest or some lowly motives, and in most cases, it's a person that

7 would need to be isolated from society. So that we did not differentiate

8 there, our judgements did have -- reflect this. We had stronger,

9 stricter sentences. We would amend them or reverse them depending on the

10 circumstances so that the practice in other military courts, those of

11 first instance as well, were also shaped by our judgements. I don't know

12 if there were any individual cases like this particular case where there

13 was no investigation carried out even. That's something that I cannot

14 know.

15 Q. All right. Let me just be clear. In your statement when you

16 talk about these things, you keep -- you keep sort of referring to what

17 you did and your impartiality. Let me try to be precise.

18 Do you know whether, just for an example, other courts like the

19 Banja Luka Military Court issued the same sentences for Serb soldiers who

20 killed Muslim victims as they did for Serb soldiers who killed other Serb

21 soldiers or Serb civilians? Are you asserting that those sentences were

22 the same? I'm not talking just about what you did.

23 A. I assert that they were the same, and if you like, you would need

24 to take all the cases into account. We can look at all the documents --

25 all the cases from all the military courts. We can make an analysis.

Page 34083

1 There were many such cases, but I'm sure that you would come to the

2 conclusion that the criteria were the same.

3 Q. Actually, the -- we come to the exact opposite conclusion, sir,

4 and I'll show you some examples. But in the rare, rare instance that a

5 Serb was actually sentenced and served a sentence during the war for

6 killing a Muslim or a Croat victim, if they even ever got to that

7 sentence stage, it was invariably lower than for a similar crime. And

8 I'm going to show you an illustration of that.

9 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 05688A, please, 65 ter number.

10 Q. And this is a case you'll remember, because it reached your

11 court, the case of Pero Marin.

12 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm going to need the English as well for

13 Your Honours.

14 Q. While it's coming up, this is dated 22nd of June, 1993,

15 Military Court Banja Luka, same court that at the same time was dealing

16 with the Velagici case. It's the case against Pero Marin, and to make it

17 very brief, the facts of this case, which you'll see, are that it was a

18 Serb soldier who was drunk, hitchhiking. A car didn't stop to pick him

19 up, so out of anger he shot at the car and tragically killed a little

20 Serb boy who was in the car. If you look at this judgement, you'll see

21 that this man was held in detention throughout the hearing and was

22 sentenced to 12 years in prison for one murder of a Serb boy.

23 A. May I look at the other pages --

24 Q. Yes.

25 A. -- of the judgement?

Page 34084

1 MR. NICHOLLS: If we could please continue to page 2 of the

2 Serbian.

3 Q. Now, what I'll put it to you ...

4 So what I'll put it to you is this shows the system working

5 pretty well. A Serb soldier kills a Serb boy while he's drunk because

6 he's angry. He's held in detention and then he's sentenced to 12 years.

7 That's the way it should work. May I -- you agree with me?

8 A. I agree with you. The maximum sentence was 15 years for such a

9 crime.

10 MR. NICHOLLS: May I tender that document, please, Your Honours.

11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

12 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6145, Your Honours.

13 MR. NICHOLLS:

14 Q. Now, another case you'll recall is the Stankovic case.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Could I have 65 ter 05692, please.

16 Q. Do you remember the Stankovic case?

17 A. No. No.

18 Q. Okay. I'll show it to you. This is the same Banja Luka Military

19 Court, 21st October 1993, and the facts of this case - I'll give you a

20 chance to look at it, you can hopefully read it quickly - is that a Serb

21 soldier, drunk and angry, walks through the town, murders a woman, a

22 Muslim woman, with his machine-gun. That's on the bottom of page 1 of

23 the English and should be on page 1 of yours. Keeps walking along,

24 murders some other people with his machine-gun, and then seriously

25 injuries two others.

Page 34085

1 MR. NICHOLLS: Can we go to page 2 of the English, please.

2 Q. And we see in the English, thus he took the --

3 A. Can I look at the rest of the pages, please.

4 Q. Yes. I'll just read this out where you're looking --

5 A. I just want to see the judgement.

6 Q. But in summary, he took the lives of two persons and attempted to

7 take the lives of two others. So that's Article 36(6), murder of two or

8 more persons.

9 A. May I also look at the explanation.

10 Q. Yeah. We can continue through. And what you'll see there under

11 "Sentence" is that he was sentenced to four years and six months in

12 prison. We also see there that he was in custody from August 1992 to

13 February 1993, in other words, six months and, in other words, not

14 through the entire hearing as he should have been.

15 A. May I look at the statement of reasons, the next page, please.

16 Q. Yes, of course.

17 A. And the next page, please. Because I just wanted to see what the

18 criteria were and on what basis the court made its decision.

19 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ...

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And can I look at the next page,

21 please. I am still not getting the last page or the next page.

22 MR. NICHOLLS:

23 Q. Just while you're reading, you want to keep in mind that both of

24 these judgements are by the same judge of the Banja Luka Military Court.

25 A. I didn't see the name of the judge.

Page 34086

1 Q. Judge Svetozar Davidovic.

2 A. Could we zoom in on this last page, please, enlarge it.

3 In the statement of reasons, this Judge Davidovic, I can see him

4 state here because of the health of the -- or mental state and for other

5 circumstances the sentence was reduced. We need to take into account the

6 position of the -- I cannot see. One must also take into account the

7 view expressed by the inhabitants of the village in question as members

8 of all three ethnic groups. So I see that there are no elements to call

9 for a heavier sentence. There are several mitigating circumstances - the

10 remorse expressed by the accused, his family situation, the absence of

11 previous convictions, and his good behaviour during the proceedings.

12 This notwithstanding the sentence could not be milder because of the

13 degree of public danger caused the serious consequences as well as for

14 the sake of the -- of general prevention. The court rests assured that

15 the aim of sentencing will be achieved by the sentence passed.

16 I don't know if there was any appeal lodged, if the judgement was

17 submitted to the Supreme Court, to us, for review. I don't know if the

18 sentence is strict or not. We would need to look at the case files

19 again, the findings of experts, and so on. There are no identical two

20 crimes or two identical sets of circumstances. Each case is different,

21 and it's very difficult to compare them and sentences are somewhere mild

22 in some cases and in some cases they are strict.

23 Q. Yeah -- fine. But all these documents are in evidence. I'll put

24 it to you that the principal difference in these two factors is that in

25 one case, a drunken Serb soldier killed two Muslim civilians and severely

Page 34087

1 wounded two others as he attempted to murder them, and in the other

2 circumstance, the victim was a Serb boy. That's the main difference.

3 And if we -- I'll try to do this without bringing it up, but we have in

4 evidence P03633. That's another judgement on this same Stankovic which

5 the Court has seen. See if you remember it. This man Stankovic didn't

6 even serve his four year, six months' sentence until, less than a year

7 later, he accidentally shot two Serb girls while carelessly handling his

8 rifle. And then after he shot two Serb children by accident, he finally

9 went to prison for eight years. Do you remember that?

10 A. I seem to remember that vaguely. I don't know.

11 Q. All right.

12 A. It's possible that there were two sentences, but in the end, it

13 was one sentence that was passed down for both of these things. I don't

14 know.

15 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, I'm sorry, I think I've been fairly

16 efficient. The witness has clearly wanted to read quite a lot of the

17 documents, which is fair enough. I would ask for another 15 minutes

18 after the break.

19 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, if I could just be heard on

20 the relevance or necessity of this line of inquiry. As a Defence

21 counsel, I somehow find that this procedure to be somewhat uncomfortable

22 for a judge be having to explain acquittals. I can almost see

23 Judge Meron sitting there being questioned by some prosecutor about

24 Gotovina or other cases, and I'm not sure that it's productive to

25 continue along this way. So if Mr. Nicholls has some other lines that he

Page 34088

1 hasn't pursuant yet, perhaps he could tell you what they are and you

2 could decide if they're necessary. But to simply ask a judge, the

3 president of a court, to explain acquittals or lenient treatment, I think

4 is of very low probative value.

5 MR. NICHOLLS: Well, they -- may I -- sorry, Your Honour.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

7 MR. NICHOLLS: They have called this judge. I'm not concerned at

8 how uncomfortable he may feel. They have called this judge and had --

9 and taken a statement from him saying that -- implying that throughout

10 the system there was equal treatment, that the court was blind to

11 ethnicity, and our position is that is blatantly false. And the way to

12 expose that what is in this statement is not true is to show some

13 specific examples, and the judge has been able to show that: I don't

14 know about this, that's true.

15 I don't have time to go through actually dozens of examples I

16 have in here, but I don't think there's been anything unfair about my

17 cross-examination, and I would prefer not to mention where I'm going to

18 go next in the next 15 minutes. If you grant that to me. I can tell

19 Your Honours it will be different, part of it.

20 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, I recall that Dr. Karadzic was

21 frequently required to justify extensions of time for his

22 cross-examination by explaining the areas that hadn't been covered. I

23 think the Prosecution should have to live by those same standards.

24 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

25 JUDGE KWON: We will have a break now, Mr. Nicholls, and you will

Page 34089

1 have 15 minutes after the break.

2 MR. NICHOLLS: Thank you, Your Honours.

3 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

4 --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

6 MR. NICHOLLS: Your Honours, first may I tender 05692, the last

7 document we looked at.

8 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll receive it.

9 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6146, Your Honours.

10 MR. NICHOLLS:

11 Q. Okay. Sir, I'm not talking about the micro-level anymore,

12 individual cases. We're kind of through with that small stuff. I want

13 to try to look a little bit at the bigger picture. You say and it's

14 shown in paragraph 37 of your statement and it's in the court

15 files that -- you don't need to look it up. This is an easy one. The

16 Supreme Military Court was located in Zvornik; right?

17 A. Yes. It was in Han Pijesak and later in Zvornik.

18 Q. And after the court, as you say, was dislocated to Zvornik to put

19 more distance between the court and the Pale authorities and the

20 Main Staff, did you live in Zvornik?

21 A. Yes, during trials while the court was there.

22 Q. Okay. Now, this dislocation moved the court farther away from

23 the civilian and military authorities, but it moved it much closer, in

24 fact, created zero distance between the seat of the

25 Supreme Military Court of the VRS and the massive murder of Muslims in

Page 34090

1 Zvornik municipality in July 1995; right?

2 A. Well, no. No, because those mass killings did not happen when we

3 were moved to Zvornik from Han Pijesak. That happened in 1993 or 1994.

4 That did not happen, and we didn't know about these murders even when

5 they did happen.

6 Q. Okay. Let's be very clear. Are you saying that in July 1995,

7 that there were not mass murders in Zvornik municipality?

8 A. No. No, in the sense that we didn't know about any mass murders,

9 nor did we have any information or cases or indictments, nor did anybody

10 consult us. We could not have had any knowledge about it. The

11 relocation of the court was done because the premises had been too small.

12 We had expanded as a court, and that's why we were moved to Zvornik. I

13 personally commuted to Belgrade, but I lived there in a hotel --

14 Q. Which hotel?

15 A. -- while I was working. Drina Hotel.

16 Q. Okay. Now, as you sit here today in this courtroom, do you

17 contest that thousands of Muslim murders -- thousands of Muslim prisoners

18 were murdered in Zvornik municipality after July 13th, 1995?

19 A. While I was in Zvornik and while I worked there, I didn't know

20 anything about it --

21 Q. Stop, stop, stop. I'm asking today, as you sit here now, do you

22 contest my statement that --

23 A. [No interpretation].

24 Q. -- that in July 19 --

25 A. No, no, no. You didn't understand me. I didn't know. In 1996 I

Page 34091

1 was retired. I was removed from that post, and we didn't have any cases,

2 and we had no official information. In fact, we didn't have any

3 information about any murders. What you are asking me I learned about

4 only from the media many years later when I was no longer there, when I

5 was in Belgrade. Whether they really happened and what kind of murders,

6 I still do not know today. It's not clear to me. I know chaos reigned.

7 I know there was crimes perpetrated by all sides, but whether a genocide

8 was perpetrated, I personally don't think so. But that there were crimes

9 and killings of prisoners, I only learned later, and also from following

10 proceedings in The Hague, on the internet, on television, et cetera.

11 Q. So as a citizen, just also a person living in Zvornik, you didn't

12 know that thousands and thousands of Muslims were killed in Zvornik?

13 Please answer yes or no.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Okay.

16 MR. NICHOLLS: 65 ter 24618, please.

17 Q. Because I don't have of time, this is a transcript of a

18 television interview from PBS in the United States. It's dated

19 January 25th, 1996. We go to page 2. It's not in your language, sir.

20 I'll just read out your answer, see if you remember this interview.

21 Again, January 25th, 1996. So six months after the murders that

22 I say occurred. Colonel Novak Todorovic, when you were asked about

23 these:

24 "About Srebrenica I don't know anything exactly because we have

25 nothing about Srebrenica in our court here, and in our courts in the

Page 34092

1 first level, I know that we have nothing."

2 And then you were asked:

3 "Do you think it will be a possibility?"

4 And you answered:

5 "I don't know, really. I don't know. I hear that the

6 international court in The Hague has something about that. If they give

7 us we shall consider that case and where to go and to make sentences."

8 So was -- your answer was truthful at least in the respect that

9 the Military Court six months after the fall of Srebrenica was doing

10 nothing to prosecute anybody for that crime?

11 A. What you have just put to me in the English language is true, and

12 I believe it was some American television or perhaps the BBC reporters

13 did come, and I enabled them to tour all military prisons, military

14 courts, to take interviews, and of course they visited me at this Supreme

15 Military Court, and what I said was true.

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. Just as this court cannot proceed without an indictment, I'm

18 saying give me an indictment so I will do something. But we didn't have

19 any indictments. We were a court, or we were trying to be.

20 Q. I understand that. But you've also said that you personally

21 didn't know anything about the murders, correct, until you learned about

22 them from the media, right?

23 A. Yes, yes. And I said even then that I didn't know.

24 Q. Yeah. Okay.

25 MR. NICHOLLS: P04397, please.

Page 34093

1 Q. I just want to take a quick look at about what the entire world,

2 except for you, knew. This is not in your language, but it's a report

3 from the 17th of July, 1995, in a British newspaper, "The Independent."

4 And the title which is not subtle is "Bodies --"

5 A. Could you enlarge this a bit, please.

6 Q. Sure. It's called "Bodies Pile Up in Horror of Srebrenica." So

7 that's what people in Birmingham knew the day after the Branjevo farm

8 killings. And this refers to video that was shown in Belgrade of what we

9 now know is the Kravica warehouse victims.

10 So your testimony is that a taxi driver in Birmingham who is

11 surprised -- read "The Independent" knew more about the Srebrenica

12 killings than you; is that right?

13 A. Yes, probably.

14 MR. NICHOLLS: All right. No further questions.

15 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination,

16 Mr. Karadzic?

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency, thank you. I

18 have several questions.

19 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Todorovic, at that time were you reading

21 "The Independent"?

22 A. No.

23 Q. Did any of our newspapers provide any convincing information on

24 the 17th of July?

25 A. No.

Page 34094

1 Q. From your experience, did Western media in the past pass

2 information that could or could not be believed?

3 A. Of course they did. Generally speaking, you can never trust

4 newspapers, not now and not then. Although there existed decent and fair

5 television crews, especially from the US who had their cameras also here

6 when the Tribunal was established, and I believe they reported very

7 fairly. And several BBC teams also visited. And it's not out of my

8 great love for journalists but because I wanted the work of courts to be

9 covered as widely as possible, all for the purpose of preventing crimes

10 and putting criminals behind bars. And you insisted also that there be

11 media coverage and that judgements be reported on.

12 Q. On page 37 of the LiveNote today, you were asked whether you knew

13 or whether you found out that these people had been killed in Zvornik.

14 When you learnt about it later, did you also learn that they had been

15 killed in Zvornik itself?

16 A. No. What I learned later from the media, from the press, but

17 mainly from the trials broadcast from here in The Hague, are the mass

18 graves in Srebrenica, not Zvornik. As far as I know, there were some

19 criminals and paramilitaries in Zvornik at the very beginning of the war

20 when complete chaos reigned, and it was the beginning of civil war.

21 Early on, before I even assumed my post of president of the court, we

22 insisted that all such detention centres and improvised prisons be

23 abolished. Instead, we had three remand prisons, and at my insistence

24 the wardens of these prisons who were professionals were returned to

25 their jobs in Batkovici, in Bijeljina, and Tunjice near Banja Luka, and

Page 34095

1 all these people knew their job so that nobody could be detained without

2 a court order.

3 MR. NICHOLLS: I'm objecting as nonresponsive.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's continue. The question was about

5 Srebrenica killing.

6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

8 Q. Thank you. Earlier today, esteemed Prosecutor Nicholls put to

9 the Court his case, on page 24, lines 9 through 19, where he maintained

10 that there was no case where a member of the VRS of Serb ethnicity had

11 been tried for the crime of killing a Muslim unless they had also

12 committed crimes against Serbs. I would like us to look now at one case

13 that was finally judged before your Supreme Court, but let us start from

14 the beginning.

15 Prosecutor Nicholls said that these proceedings were never

16 finalised and never reached a final judgement.

17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D1757. D1757.

18 This has already been admitted as a Defence exhibit.

19 Thank you. Could we zoom in a bit.

20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21 Q. Mr. Todorovic, could you tell us who is indicted here. What is

22 the ethnicity of the perpetrator and the injured party?

23 A. As far as I can see, it is the Military Prosecutor's Office

24 Banja Luka. The last name is Vranjes, Miladin, son of Djuro, born in

25 Banja Luka.

Page 34096

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we zoom in on the Serbian

2 version.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The date is 13 April 1993, when he

4 came to the house of --

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we remove the English

6 version. The parties can see for themselves.

7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is something smudged here.

8 Right. On 13 April 1993, at 1600 hours --

9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. If I may be of assistance. What is the ethnicity of this

11 Miladin Vranjes?

12 A. I don't know. Now I don't see it on the screen. There were some

13 personal details of his in the indictment. Son of Djuro and mother Dare.

14 Q. Just his ethnicity.

15 A. Ethnic Serb.

16 Q. And what is the ethnicity of the injured party, Dzemil Abdic?

17 A. Looking for his son. Just let me see who he killed. Fired two

18 bullets in the head. In the house. He came to the house of

19 Dzemil Abdic, looking for his son Aso, and then upon not finding him he

20 fired -- it is written something in -- there's something in --

21 handwritten.

22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next one, D1758.

23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24 Q. What is the ethnicity of Camil -- Dzemil, sorry?

25 A. Dzemil or Camil, probably Muslims. But it's not written, I can't

Page 34097

1 see it in the indictment.

2 Q. Thank you.

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 (redacted)

21 (redacted)

22 (redacted)

23 (redacted)

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

Page 34098

11 Page 34098 redacted.

Page 34099

1 (redacted)

2 (redacted)

3 (redacted)

4 (redacted)

5 (redacted)

6 (redacted)

7 (redacted)

8 (redacted)

9 (redacted)

10 (redacted)

11 (redacted)

12 (redacted)

13 (redacted)

14 (redacted)

15 (redacted)

16 (redacted)

17 (redacted)

18 (redacted)

19 (redacted)

20 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Mr. Todorovic, if you could excuse

21 yourself for a moment again. I apologise for your inconvenience.

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23 [The witness stands down]

24 JUDGE KWON: Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

25 [Private session]

Page 34118

1 Q. The question was whether we had such a unit, not he.

2 A. I understood. We at the police station did not have a unit

3 capable of adequately confronting those paramilitary units.

4 Q. Thank you. My only correction is to the transcript, line 3,

5 whether we had such a unit.

6 Do you know that in the United States I referred -- after the

7 allegations to events in Brcko and Banja Luka, I invited American

8 investigators, and one American investigator was in Brcko very early on.

9 A. I can't remember.

10 Q. All right. Then I will discuss these documents with somebody

11 else.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

13 questions.

14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.

15 Mr. Kaurinovic, as you have noted now, your evidence in chief in

16 this case has been admitted in most part in writing in lieu of your oral

17 testimony, and now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the

18 Office of the Prosecutor, Ms. McKenna.

19 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.

20 Cross-examination by Ms. McKenna:

21 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kaurinovic.

22 A. Good afternoon.

23 Q. First, I'd just like you to confirm that you were interviewed by

24 OTP investigators on the 12th of September, 2002, in Brcko. Is that

25 correct?

Page 34119

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And as a career police officer, you have conducted many

3 interviews yourself, and you're well aware of the importance of giving

4 accurate information in a criminal investigation; is that correct?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. Thank you. Now, you explain in your statement that you left

7 Brcko town on the 30th of April, 1992, and that you arrived back into the

8 town on the 3rd of May. Now, when you left Brcko on the 30th of April,

9 Mustafa Ramic was the president of the municipality. Isn't that correct?

10 A. If I remember well, yes.

11 Q. And then on your return to Brcko, you learned that

12 Djordje Ristanic was the president of the municipality; correct?

13 A. Upon return from Bukvik to Brcko. I did not learn it that day.

14 I learned perhaps later that Mr. Ristanic was president of the

15 municipality, but I didn't know -- know. When I left from Brcko to

16 Bukvik, Mr. Ramic was president of the Assembly. And when I returned, I

17 didn't give it any thought whether he was still president of the

18 Assembly. I only learned later that Mr. Ristanic held now that position.

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kaurinovic. I'm going to ask you to listen

20 carefully to my questions and answer them as precisely and as concisely

21 as possible, please.

22 The issue of who was in authority, you talked about this this

23 morning briefly, when you say that when -- on your return to Brcko, the

24 paramilitaries were in authority. Now, you discussed this issue in your

25 statement to the OTP in September 2002, and you stated at that time that

Page 34120

1 from early May 1992, the Crisis Staff was the authority in the town of

2 Brcko. Do you stand by that statement?

3 A. As far as I know, the Crisis Staff was established. It's quite

4 natural to form a Crisis Staff in view of the situation prevailing in

5 Brcko. However, the way I see it and based on what I've found in town

6 and my conversation with my superior commander, Mr. Veselic, the

7 Crisis Staff had absolutely no power. The power was instead taken over

8 by those paramilitaries.

9 Q. Thank you.

10 MS. McKENNA: If we could -- excuse me. Could we please have

11 65 ter 24632, please.

12 Q. Mr. Kaurinovic, this is a transcript of your previous interview,

13 and I'd like to remind you of what you said on this topic. And I'd just

14 look at two brief excerpts from this interview.

15 MS. McKENNA: If we could have page 15 in e-court, please.

16 Q. And at line 26, you're asked -- and I should say this is in the

17 context of a discussion of what happened upon the 3rd and 4th of May, on

18 your return to Brcko, and you were asked:

19 "... who was in charge of the town at that stage, do you know?"

20 And you said:

21 "The Crisis Staff, the so-called Crisis Staff."

22 And I'd also like -- if you'd just bear with me, I'll show you

23 one more except from your interview, and that's page 73. And I'd like to

24 look from line 10 of that page.

25 Now, Mr. Kaurinovic, just to explain, this is in the context of a

Page 34121

1 discussion of whether the Crisis Staff knew what was going on at Luka

2 camp. We'll come back to the issue of Luka camp, but right now I'd just

3 like to focus you on the issue of who was in authority of the town and --

4 in the town, and you say -- or, sorry, you were asked:

5 "It isn't possible that the Crisis Staff would have -- would have

6 not been aware of the sort of things that were happening at the camp."

7 Your response was:

8 "I don't think so."

9 The interviewer said:

10 "It would have been very difficult for them to have not known

11 what was happening."

12 And your response was:

13 "I can only assume that they were the one who should have known

14 what was happening in this town, because they were the one who were the

15 authority in town."

16 Now, do you accept this as -- statement as accurate?

17 A. I don't know which question to answer now. Your previous

18 question was upon my return to Brcko, as I had stated earlier, the

19 Crisis Staff was in power, was in charge and ruled Brcko. Upon my

20 arrival in Brcko, that's indeed what I thought. However, when I realised

21 what the situation in town really is and what was going on, I came to the

22 conclusion that the Crisis Staff was apparently able to do nothing about

23 it. I came to the police station, for instance, and found all offices

24 broken into, the safe boxes we had in our offices were burgled. All the

25 valuables were gone, and we had seized some valuables from criminals we

Page 34122

1 had worked on. And that's when I finally realised that the Crisis Staff,

2 if it had any power, would never have allowed that.

3 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kaurinovic. We're going to --

4 A. I remember when I was giving this statement --

5 Q. We're going to come back to the issue of what happened on your

6 arrival to Brcko police station. Again I'm going to ask you after the

7 break to listen carefully and focus your questions on -- or your answers

8 on the questions that are being asked.

9 MS. McKENNA: But, Your Honours, I note the time.

10 JUDGE KWON: I think you asked some compound questions. You put

11 two things in one go, but we'll continue after the break.

12 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.

13 JUDGE KWON: We'll take a break for half an hour and resume at

14 1.00 -- or, I'm sorry, 1.15.

15 --- Recess taken at 12.27 p.m.

16 --- On resuming at 1.18 p.m.

17 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue, Ms. McKenna.

18 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Your Honour.

19 Q. Mr. Kaurinovic, just before the break we were talking about

20 your -- well, actually let's focus on your arrival, the date that you

21 arrived back to Brcko. That's on the 3rd of May. When you arrived back,

22 you heard a call over the radio requesting that police officers of Serb

23 origin report to work. Isn't that correct?

24 A. No. As for the request that police officers report to their

25 workplaces, I heard it when I was in Bukvik. That's why I set off

Page 34123

1 towards Brcko to report to work. They didn't mention Serb or any other

2 ethnicity. They simply stated that policemen should report to their

3 workstations.

4 Q. Thank you. I'd like to remind you of your statement on this

5 point to the Office of the Prosecutor.

6 MS. McKENNA: If we could have 65 ter 24632 once again, please.

7 And I'd like to see page 14.

8 Q. And at line 8, Mr. Kaurinovic, you state:

9 "I came to Brcko on the 3rd of May in the afternoon, early

10 evening hours. And since I was listening to the radio, I heard a call

11 over the radio, which said that the police officers of Serb ethnic origin

12 were called to report to their ... work. And I came to the police

13 building."

14 Does this -- do you accept that you heard a call that police

15 officers of Serb origin were called to report?

16 A. What I said was that I was unable to listen to radio en route to

17 Brcko. I arrived from Bijeljina to Brcko hitchhiking, and the person who

18 picked me up did not turn on the radio. I heard it over local radio --

19 Q. May I interrupt you. Can we just focus on whether -- whether --

20 when you heard. We accept that you heard a call for police officers to

21 report to work. Do you accept that it was a call for Serb police

22 officers to report to work?

23 A. What I heard on the radio in Bukvik was that the police officers

24 of the police station in Brcko should report to their workstations as

25 soon as possible. I wasn't interested in anything else. I focused only

Page 34124

1 on arriving in Brcko. I really don't remember whether it was expressly

2 stated that only Serb policemen should report. I was completely unaware

3 of the situation in Brcko at the time.

4 Q. Thank you. And I'll just direct you to your next testimony on

5 this point, which is you say when you came to the police building:

6 "And concretely, for your question, at that moment I saw very

7 many people in police uniforms whom I did not ever see in my life, whom

8 I'd never seen in my life."

9 Do you accept, Mr. Kaurinovic, that on your arrival in the police

10 station there were in fact lots of police officers there?

11 A. Yes.

12 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, may I tender this page?

13 MR. ROBINSON: Well, is it necessary, Mr. President, if she's

14 confronted him with it orally?

15 MS. McKENNA: The --

16 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna.

17 MS. McKENNA: Thank you. The witness hasn't accepted -- doesn't

18 recall his evidence that he heard a call that only police officers of

19 Serb origin report to work. It's for that reason that I'm tendering it.

20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. What pages are you tendering?

21 MS. McKENNA: Thank you. It's page 14.

22 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll admit it.

23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6147, Your Honours.

24 MS. McKENNA:

25 Q. Now, when you arrived, one of the police officers directed you to

Page 34125

1 report to Mr. Veselic, the new chief of the Brcko SJB; is that correct?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And Mr. Veselic hadn't been a police officer before the war, had

4 he?

5 A. He hadn't.

6 Q. Now, this morning you discussed one of the first tasks that

7 Mr. Veselic gave you, and that was to identify bodies at a mass grave

8 site. Is it correct that the -- you testified this morning that it

9 was -- you identified up to 60 bodies of Bosnian Muslim people. They

10 were aged between 20 and 30 years of age. Isn't that correct?

11 A. I couldn't establish their age, but -- well, I couldn't establish

12 that.

13 Q. Mr. Kaurinovic, I apologise. I misspoke. Your previous

14 testimony was that they were -- they were aged between the ages of 20 and

15 60. Is that consistent with your testimony today?

16 A. To tell you the truth, I'm no longer certain whether there were

17 any of them who were around 60. It was very difficult to guess, to guess

18 their age of those who had been killed.

19 Q. But it was evident, was it not, Mr. Kaurinovic, that they had

20 clearly been executed, having been shot at close range to the head?

21 A. It is correct that they had been executed. It's a very difficult

22 situation, and I didn't pay much attention to whether they had been shot

23 at close range or some other range. I really didn't pay much attention

24 to that. It's a difficult situation. I was interested in identifying

25 them.

Page 34126

1 As for looking around in detail in order to produce a conclusion

2 whether it was at close range or not, well, I was not in a situation to

3 work that way and to assess.

4 Q. Let me remind you, then, of your statement to the Office of the

5 Prosecutor in 2002 on this and the issue of whether you -- whether they

6 were civilians or soldiers.

7 MS. McKENNA: If we could have page 34, please.

8 Q. At line 14, you were asked:

9 "And from your observations, how were they killed?"

10 And your response was:

11 "At close range to the head, mostly."

12 Do you accept, Mr. Kaurinovic, that your statement on this in

13 2 --

14 A. It's possible, but I don't recall it.

15 Q. Well, moving on to the issue of the -- who the bodies were, you

16 say -- you were asked at line 21:

17 "What sort of clothing were they wearing?"

18 And you explained that they were wearing civilian clothes. And

19 then at line 25 you were asked:

20 "They were obviously -- they obviously weren't soldiers."

21 And you responded:

22 "No, none of them."

23 So, Mr. Kaurinovic, when you were asked in 2002, you were very

24 sure that they were civilians. Is it your testimony here today that

25 you're less sure of that fact?

Page 34127

1 A. I claim that they were in civilian clothes. However, I can't say

2 whether they were engaged militarily or not. As I have said previously,

3 at the beginning of the war, many people did not have uniforms. They

4 went to the front lines in civilian clothes. I can't say that

5 100 per cent of them were civilian and that they had not been engaged in

6 any military activities. I really don't know that.

7 Q. Well, Mr. Kaurinovic, in the same interview, you said that some

8 of the people who you identified you had previously seen on the 4th or

9 5th of May being assembled and detained outside the police station in

10 Brcko. Do you recall that?

11 A. I assert that the people at the location where I carried out

12 identifications, I didn't see them before the station. How could it have

13 come about? How could I have said that people who had been brought in

14 before the police station were the same ones I identified? That's

15 impossible.

16 MS. McKENNA: Could we see page 46 of the OTP interview, please.

17 Q. At line 4 of this interview you were asked:

18 "Okay. Just so we're crystal clear on this, you are able to say

19 that some of the men or the civilians that you saw assembled, detained

20 and assembled outside of the police station, were ... the next time you

21 saw them they were corpses at the mass grave site?"

22 And your response was:

23 "That's right."

24 Mr. Kaurinovic, do you accept this previous statement as

25 accurate?

Page 34128

1 A. I recognised a few of them in front of the station as well as at

2 the site of identification, but I can't say that for all of them.

3 Q. Thank you. And this morning you explained that you were

4 recording the details so that the perpetrators could be criminally

5 processed. Now, in your statement to the OTP in 2002, you said that you

6 told your chief, Mr. Veselic, about the fact that these people had been

7 executed and that somebody should be held responsible; is that correct?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And Mr. Veselic gave you no response; is that correct?

10 A. When Mr. Veselic tasked me with identifying them, he told me that

11 the job need to be done as professionally as possible and to keep records

12 of those identified so that there would be no impression that things were

13 being pushed under the carpet. And so that the crime could be

14 appropriately prosecuted at some future time. He provided me with some

15 guidelines and instructions on how to go about it.

16 MS. McKENNA: Could I have page 37 of Mr. Kaurinovic's OTP

17 interview.

18 Q. I'd just like to focus on Mr. Veselic's response and his attitude

19 to these killings. At page -- at line 1 you say:

20 "We did tell him that," and this is about the killings, "We told

21 them that they were killed ..."

22 And you said, "Well, someone should be held responsible for it."

23 You were asked:

24 "What did he say?"

25 And you responded:

Page 34129

1 "Nothing, he just look at us. I can't remember if he commented

2 on it."

3 And then at line 18, you were asked:

4 "Was there any reaction by him of surprise when you told him

5 about these killings?"

6 And your response was:

7 "I cannot remember. I really cannot remember if there was any

8 change of expression at the face or anything, but I just know that he did

9 not give many comments on that."

10 Now, Mr. Veselic was, in fact, unresponsive to the complaints

11 that you made about these killings, wasn't he?

12 A. I previously told you what his instructions were. In answer to

13 the question about his reaction, well, when I looked at him, everything

14 was clear to me based on his reaction. He seemed to be shocked by it.

15 Now, whether he said anything at the time is something I can't remember,

16 but observing his reactions, it was clear that he was worried, and to me,

17 it was the same as if he had said something.

18 Q. Well, Mr. Kaurinovic, as at 2002, no investigations had been

19 undertaken into these deaths, had they?

20 A. As far as I recall, there was no investigation concerning the

21 killings. I didn't work in the police then in 2002. I had been retired

22 in 1998. Now, what was done about it subsequently is something I don't

23 know. I can't say that nothing was done or that nothing will be done.

24 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kaurinovic. I'd like to turn to the issue of who

25 was working with you in the Brcko police. Can you please confirm that

Page 34130

1 Dragan Zivkovic was an active police officer before the war?

2 A. Yes, he was.

3 Q. And Branko Pudic was also an active police officer before the

4 war?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And in terms of reserve police officers before the war, they

7 included Pero Zaric?

8 A. Zaric with a Z.

9 Q. Thank you for the pronunciation correction. Can you please

10 confirm for the record that he was a reserve police officer?

11 A. No. I don't know. It wasn't within my remit to know who came

12 from the reserve police force. I can't say he wasn't there either,

13 although I don't think so as far as I recall. I don't remember him being

14 with their reserve police force.

15 Q. Perhaps your recollection was clearer in 2002. If we could have

16 page 28 of your statement. And at line 15 you're asked whether Zaric,

17 the commander of the Intervention Platoon, was a reserve police officer,

18 and you confirm at line 16 that he had been a reserve police officer.

19 Does this refresh your recollection?

20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the entire response be read

21 out to the witness, line 16.

22 MS. McKENNA: Certainly.

23 Q. On the previous page at line 13, you had explained -- or you had

24 agreed that Petar Zaric was the commander of the Intervention Unit, and

25 then at line 16 of page 28, you were asked whether he was a police

Page 34131

1 officer before the war, and you -- you said:

2 "Reserve police officer. Never worked in police."

3 Now, just to clarify, you meant he never worked in the police

4 before the war; is that correct?

5 A. Yes. Zaric had never worked for the police before the war.

6 Q. But during the war he worked with the police; correct?

7 A. I used to see him in police uniform. Most likely he was placed

8 in the reserve police force.

9 Q. And in -- another officer who worked with your police force was

10 Mihajlo Pejic. Isn't that correct?

11 A. The name couldn't ring a bell.

12 Q. Does the name Ranko Cesic ring a bell?

13 A. I knew Ranko Cesic since before the war. He lived in Brcko. He

14 was a local petty criminal, but we had never had any contact before the

15 war. I do know that he was prone to violence and that the general police

16 department did know of him and includes [as interpreted] him in some of

17 their activities. In the crime department, however, we did not deal with

18 petty offenders like that.

19 Q. But you agree, Mr. Kaurinovic, that Ranko Cesic worked for the

20 Brcko SJB during the war; correct?

21 A. I know that he, too, was in a police uniform. Now, as for his

22 task and who appointed him and who brought him is something I don't know.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 20 in the transcript. The

24 witness said that the police dealt with these petty criminals and not

25 that it co-operated with them, whereas in the transcript we have in

Page 34132

1 line 21, it reads only that the crime department didn't deal with such

2 petty offenders. It was only the general police department that did. In

3 line 20, it seems that the police included them some -- in some of their

4 activities, whereas the meaning actually should be that they did not deal

5 with such offenders, whereas they did deal with such offenders, whereas

6 the crime department did not.

7 MS. McKENNA: Perhaps I can clarify this issue with the witness

8 with reference to a document.

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.

10 MS. McKENNA: If we could see P3004, please.

11 Q. Now, Mr. Kaurinovic, this is a certificate dated the

12 28th of October, 1992, from the RS MUP, SJB Brcko, certifying that

13 Ranko Cesic was in the Police Reserve Corps Unit of the war station of

14 the Brcko police during the period from 15th of May, 1992, until the

15 22nd of June, 1992.

16 Do you accept that Mr. Cesic was part of the police forces during

17 that period?

18 A. I cannot accept that, because I didn't have any contact with him.

19 This is a certificate issued to him, but I don't know who signed it, who

20 issued the certificate to him. All I can state is that before the war he

21 was never in the police. As to whether he was engaged in the reserve

22 police force is something that I really don't know.

23 Q. Okay. Well, let's focus on people who were engaged in the police

24 force during the war.

25 MS. McKENNA: If we could have P3005, please.

Page 34133

1 Q. You'll see, Mr. Kaurinovic, that this is a list of employees of

2 the Brcko Public Security Station for salary for the month of

3 September 1992, and you'll see your name at number 7 on page 1. And your

4 colleague Mr. Tesic at number 8.

5 MS. McKENNA: I'd like to us to turn to page 5 of both English

6 and the B/C/S.

7 Q. And if we could focus on entry number 252.

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. You'll see the name of Konstantin Simonovic. So on the basis of

10 this document and contrary to the assertion at paragraph 32 of your

11 statement, Kosta Simonovic, or Kole, was in fact an employee of the MUP,

12 wasn't he?

13 A. Konstantin Simonovic was never a MUP employee before the war,

14 never. Who put him on this list I don't know, but I am saying that

15 before the war he was never a police employee. I didn't draft the list.

16 I'm seeing it for the first time. I don't know who put him on that list.

17 Q. Thank you. But let's just focus on the issue of whether he was a

18 police employee during the war. Do you agree that Mr. Simonovic was a

19 police employee during the war?

20 A. Mr. Simonovic wore a police uniform during the war, and I see on

21 this list that he was on the payroll, that he was receiving a salary. I

22 don't know about that, and it's not clear to me how he appears on this

23 list.

24 Q. Now, the police officers who we have just been discussing, were

25 placed by Witness Gasi at Luka camp. Were you aware that these police

Page 34134

1 officers were at the camp?

2 A. We're talking about policeman Simonovic. It says here policeman,

3 but he was not a policeman. I cannot remember now what other policemen

4 you are thinking of. I saw Mr. Simonovic in Luka. I saw him in Luka.

5 Q. Let's --

6 A. In --

7 Q. -- focus on those officers that Witness -- or some of those

8 officers who Witness Gasi testified about and their involvement in the

9 mistreatment and killings at Luka camp. For example, Witness Gasi

10 testified that Branko Pudic, who you've accepted was a police officer

11 before the war, hit him on the head with a pistol on his arrival at Luka

12 camp. And that's for the parties' reference at T-16614. And he also

13 testified that he witnessed Ranko Cesic taking four non-Serb men from the

14 hangar at Luka and shooting them in the back. And that's again for the

15 parties' reference at P3002, page 74.

16 So my question for you, Mr. Kaurinovic, is, in fact, rather than

17 keeping out of the way of the paramilitaries at Luka as you suggested in

18 your statement, many of your police colleagues were actively involved

19 with them, weren't they?

20 A. Of the active policemen that you mentioned, all I can say is that

21 Branko Pudic was an active policeman. Knowing Pudic, I doubt that he did

22 what the witness is charging him with. Perhaps he did, I don't know. I

23 wasn't there, and I don't know. All I'm saying is that Branko Pudic was

24 an active policeman before the war.

25 Q. Mr. Kaurinovic, in your statement you discuss the arrival of

Page 34135

1 Davidovic and his men who restored law and order. Now, Mr. Davidovic's

2 evidence before this Court was that the Crisis Staff had invited the

3 paramilitaries in and that the reason they wanted to get rid -- the

4 Crisis Staff wanted to get rid of the paramilitaries was because they had

5 lost control of them by that stage. Were you aware of the fact that the

6 Crisis Staff had invited paramilitaries to Brcko?

7 A. I was not aware that the Crisis Staff invited them, but I

8 heard -- I don't know who told me this, but I think it was my boss,

9 Dragan Veselic, that the leadership of Republika Srpska invited

10 Mr. Davidovic to come to Brcko with his unit. I don't know if the

11 Republika Srpska leadership did that through the Crisis Staff or

12 directly. I don't know that. But I know for sure that this is what he

13 told me, that in order to restore a normal state of affairs in Brcko, so

14 that the police could carry out their daily duties as much as possible,

15 the leadership of Republika Srpska invited Mr. Davidovic to impose order

16 in Brcko, which is what he did.

17 Q. Okay. I'd like to turn to the issue of Luka camp and you being

18 sent there. You explained in your statement that when Mr. Veselic, and

19 this is at paragraph 25, when you spoke to Mr. Veselic, you pleaded with

20 him not to send you. Now, the reason that you pleaded him not to send

21 you was because you knew of the mistreatment and killings that were going

22 on at the camp, wasn't it?

23 A. No, that is not correct. I -- when Mr. Veselic told me that I

24 should go to Luka, I asked him if he could assign me to another post so

25 that I wouldn't go there. And the reason why I said that was that I told

Page 34136

1 him I'm afraid, and I assume that something bad could happen in Luka.

2 And because of my feeling about this, I asked him not to send me there

3 since many people knew me and I was thinking at the time that if anything

4 did happen, when I complete the work and return to the station, then the

5 people who were in custody would ascribe that to me. That's the only

6 reason why I told Mr. Veselic that I didn't want to go. I didn't tell

7 him this and this is being done in Luka. I didn't tell him that. I

8 didn't even know what was going on there.

9 Q. No -- thank you, Mr. Kaurinovic. To clarify, when you were being

10 sent, Mr. Veselic told you of the crimes that were being committed there,

11 didn't he?

12 A. I don't remember that. I don't remember him telling me that any

13 crimes were committed there. Really, I don't remember.

14 Q. We'll come back to that. But when you arrived in Luka, you soon

15 became aware that crimes were being committed there, didn't you?

16 A. The day that I went to Luka, no crimes occurred as far as I know.

17 Second day or the third day - I already mentioned this before - a man

18 told us that an incident, a crime took place. Then we left, went to see

19 Mr. Veselic to inform him about what happened according to the story that

20 that man told us.

21 Q. But you -- when you left to inform Mr. Veselic -- well, let me

22 step back. You were -- it's your testimony that you were only aware of

23 one incident of mistreatment at Luka camp; is that correct?

24 A. I spent three afternoons in Luka, three or four. Not three or

25 four days but three or four afternoons. During the time that I was

Page 34137

1 there, that was the only incident that I heard about.

2 Q. But you were aware, were you -- or weren't you, that crimes were

3 taking place when you left the camp in the evening?

4 A. That evening when I left the Luka facility, this incident took

5 place, as I already said. I didn't see it, but this man said that such

6 and such a thing happened, and I conveyed this to Mr. Veselic. There

7 were no other crimes on that day that this incident that this man told me

8 about happened.

9 Q. You've described at this stage raising with Mr. Veselic concerns

10 about crimes happening outside Luka and inside Luka. Isn't it the case,

11 Mr. Kaurinovic, that in fact very little or no effort was being made by

12 Veselic or the other authorities to guard the detainees of the camps

13 against the crimes that were being committed against them?

14 A. Even if it were so, had he put in a bit of effort -- I mean, it's

15 not that he didn't want to do it. These paramilitary formations had

16 absolute power at the time, and they could do whatever they wanted. They

17 had the upper hand. So when I told Mr. Veselic that this happened, he

18 told us, "We will do everything to prevent this and to impose some sort

19 of order in Luka."

20 Q. But, Mr. Kaurinovic, the fact that Mr. Veselic was sending you

21 and another inspector to the camp and giving you the authority to release

22 detainees from the camp suggests that he had some degree of command or

23 authority over what was happening in the camp, didn't it?

24 A. It's possible, but I assume that this was not a direct decision

25 of his made on his own. It was probably done in co-ordination with

Page 34138

1 somebody from the authorities that he told us to go and do that job. I

2 don't know if he decided by himself or not. He didn't tell me. He just

3 issued instructions to me about what I was supposed to do and I accepted

4 that and I went.

5 Q. And when you refer to "the authorities," do you mean the Crisis

6 Staff?

7 A. I don't know what I meant at the time. Did I mean the Crisis

8 Staff? Perhaps I did. I cannot remember that now. But the Crisis Staff

9 also, I'm telling you, just like the few of us who were in the police who

10 were full of fear and in this general chaos, I assumed that the Crisis

11 Staff was in the same situation.

12 Q. But on the topic of the Crisis Staff, I'd like to remind you of

13 an incident that you discussed in your OTP interview where you explained

14 that after a few days at the camp, you were instructed by Veselic to

15 immediately report to the Crisis Staff. Do you recall this incident?

16 A. This wasn't an incident. He told me to go to the Crisis Staff,

17 that some people were supposed to come there. He didn't tell me why, for

18 what reason, and I went there.

19 Q. And so when you reported to Djordje Ristanic at the Crisis Staff,

20 he was angry because you had released too many prisoners. Isn't that

21 correct?

22 A. He was concerned. Why, I don't know. He was angry probably. We

23 didn't begin communicating right away. I don't know if he was angry

24 because we released a larger number of Bosniaks or not. I don't know why

25 he was concerned.

Page 34139

1 Q. Well, in your 2002 statement, you say that Ristanic said that by

2 releasing the prisoners you had created a fifth column in the town. Do

3 you recall?

4 A. I do remember, but let me try to explain. When I went to see

5 Mr. Ristanic, there were some three or four men there. I knew one of

6 them. The other two I didn't know. I cannot be certain about this now,

7 but somebody in a conversation with Ristanic said something like, "You

8 created a fifth column." I cannot be sure, even though it said in the

9 previous statement, I cannot assert that Ristanic said that to me.

10 Somebody, one of those people who were present there, said, "You created

11 a fifth column."

12 Q. Thank you. And Mr. Ristanic ordered you to keep those prisoners

13 remaining in Luka for the purpose of exchange, didn't he?

14 A. Correct. Mr. Ristanic said that the people that remained in Luka

15 would probably be provided with security to make sure that they were safe

16 and that they would probably be exchanged. This is what he said.

17 Q. But just to clarify, in your statement in 2002, you said:

18 "Yes," and for the parties' reference this is at page 62 of the

19 interview. You said his instructions were "that none of them were to be

20 released because, allegedly, they were needed to be kept for exchange."

21 Do you agree that you were ordered to keep prisoners in Luka for

22 the purpose of exchange?

23 A. Mr. Ristanic told me, and I mentioned this earlier, and then we

24 finished our business with him and went to the police station. Veselic

25 told me the same thing, that these people would be protected in every way

Page 34140

1 so that eventually they could be exchanged for captured Serbs and so on

2 and so forth.

3 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, I'd like to tender page 62 of

4 Mr. Kaurinovic's interview transcript.

5 MR. ROBINSON: No objection.

6 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll add that to Exhibit P6147.

7 MS. McKENNA:

8 Q. Finally, Mr. Kaurinovic, on this topic, while Veselic was your

9 immediate superior, you considered the order of Ristanic, Veselic's

10 superior, to have greater weight, didn't you?

11 A. That's not what I thought. My immediate superior was

12 Mr. Dragan Veselic, and I received orders from him.

13 Q. Well, on this issue in your interview you said in -- with

14 reference to Mr. -- excuse me, Mr. Ristanic's order:

15 "The weight of that order was greater because he, according to

16 the hierarchy of the authority at the time, was -- he, Veselic, was my

17 immediate superior, but then, according to authority, that order had much

18 more weight."

19 A. Mr. Ristanic told me but it wasn't in the form of an order,

20 because he was probably in contact with Mr. Veselic and he conveyed to

21 him what had to be done, and then he in turn conveyed it to me.

22 Mr. Ristanic did not issue direct orders to me or tell me what to do. It

23 was just Mr. Veselic who did that.

24 MS. McKENNA: Your Honour, if I may tender page 64 of the

25 transcript.

Page 34141

1 JUDGE KWON: That will also be added, and you are coming to a

2 close.

3 MS. McKENNA: I am, Your Honour. Thank you for your indulgence.

4 Q. Mr. Kaurinovic, the Trial Chamber has heard evidence that you

5 interviewed Witness Gasi at Luka camp and that you assured him that he

6 and his family were all right, and that you told him that you would see

7 what you could do so that he wasn't detained too long there. Do you

8 recall this interview?

9 A. No, I don't recall that conversation. I don't recall it. I do

10 remember the Gasi family, the father and a brother -- actually I knew the

11 father, and I know that my colleagues and I released them. And it's not

12 correct that I had any kind of conversation with Gasi.

13 Q. Well, one final question, Mr. Kaurinovic. At paragraph 29 of

14 your statement, you give an opinion as to why your fellow residents left

15 the city. Now, you've just described a situation where there is a

16 detention camp where non-Serbs are being held. This camp is being run by

17 the -- or, rather, there are police operational at the camp, and it's run

18 by the Serb authorities, and you've also described the mistreatments and

19 killings of non-Serbs in Brcko. Now, surely this is a key reason why

20 non-Serbs left Brcko.

21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we get the date, please.

22 When was this? What does it refer to?

23 MS. McKENNA: It refers to the witness's testimony today.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But what was the time period that

25 the witness had in mind?

Page 34142

1 JUDGE KWON: Let us take a look at para 29. What paragraph did

2 you refer to, Ms. McKenna?

3 MS. McKENNA: Paragraph 29, but I note it's nonspecific as to

4 time.

5 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Having read the 29, the first few lines, can

6 you answer the question?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Does the witness have the

8 statement?

9 JUDGE KWON: Yes. It's on the monitor.

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I can see, in

11 paragraph 29 what it says is:

12 "This continual criminal indiscriminate shelling of Brcko in

13 which the Serbian, Muslim and Croatian residents were killed in equal

14 measure, in my opinion is the key reason why a huge number of my fellow

15 town residents fled the city. In certain situations, usually after heavy

16 artillery strikes, the town was eerily empty and deserted. It is a crime

17 that the artillery units of the Croatian Army" --

18 MS. McKENNA:

19 Q. Thank you, Mr. Kaurinovic. I apologise -- I apologise for

20 interrupting you. My question was simply this. In your statement you

21 gave an opinion as to the reason why residents left the city. My

22 question for you is: Given the situation of mistreatment and killing of

23 non-Serbs in Brcko, is that not a key reason why non-Serbs left the city

24 of Brcko?

25 A. Well, probably these paramilitaries who did what they did were

Page 34143

1 one of the reasons why people fled the town, because they were not

2 feeling safe.

3 MS. McKENNA: Thank you, Mr. Kaurinovic.

4 Your Honours, I have no further questions.

5 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. McKenna.

6 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellency.

8 JUDGE KWON: How long do you expect?

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will complete before the end of

10 this session, perhaps earlier.

11 JUDGE KWON: Then the Chamber will rise for five minutes.

12 --- Break taken at 2.16 p.m.

13 --- On resuming at 2.21 p.m.

14 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.

16 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

17 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Kaurinovic, I will begin with the freshest

18 points in our memory. You were asked why -- in fact whether Ristanic

19 told you to keep them in Luka for exchange. First of all, let's clear up

20 one thing. Did he tell you to guard them in Luka or to keep them in Luka

21 or to keep them for an exchange?

22 A. To the best of my recollection, Mr. Ristanic told me and my

23 colleague that these people should be kept for a future exchange. He did

24 not order me in so many words to accept what he was saying. He said he

25 was going to agree with Mr. Veselic that these people stay there for a

Page 34144

1 future exchange.

2 Q. Why in your opinion did he say that?

3 A. Well, the situation was then linked to Bukvik, which was in

4 complete encirclement. I suppose he might have meant that or some other

5 places that I didn't know about.

6 Q. What was Ristanic's relationship with the paramilitaries? What

7 was his position towards them, his attitude and his relations with them?

8 A. Through my contacts with Mr. Ristanic, I came to believe that he

9 was appalled by what was going on and that his relationship with the

10 paramilitaries is completely inconsistent.

11 Q. Ms. McKenna suggested on page 82 that Ristanic perhaps had the

12 possibility to command over Luka. Did Ristanic order Jelisic, and if he

13 didn't, why did he send you? Was he able to order Jelisic to release

14 those people?

15 A. I don't believe Mr. Ristanic was able to do that.

16 Q. Thank you. You released a certain number of people with whom you

17 had previously had a formal interview to establish whether there were any

18 grounds such as criminal allegations to keep them there.

19 A. Yes, that's true.

20 Q. What happened to some of them?

21 A. In the Luka camp there was also one man, a lawyer by profession,

22 and he was disabled. His leg had been amputated. We released him.

23 However, two or three days after he returned home, he was found dead in

24 his home.

25 Q. Thank you. Did Ristanic know that? Was he concerned for their

Page 34145

1 safety? Into what kind of situation did you release them before

2 Davidovic?

3 A. Release meant uncertainty. Even the people whom we released were

4 not safe, precisely because of the paramilitary formations on a rampage

5 in town, and that's precisely why that man came to a bad end after we

6 released him.

7 Q. How much personnel did you have at the Public Security Station of

8 Brcko before the war and during the war?

9 A. Before the war we had about 170 uniformed police officers. In

10 the criminal investigations department we had 17 staff members plus

11 administrative workers, and then we also had various sections for IDs,

12 driving licenses, et cetera.

13 Q. What about during the war?

14 A. At the beginning of the war, there were only two of us in the

15 criminal investigation department, Mr. Dragisa Tesic and myself. We were

16 later joined by Mr. Cvetko Ilic. That was the entire CID.

17 Q. And the total of personnel during the war?

18 A. From those old policemen whom I knew, there were 10, 15, or

19 perhaps 20. I can't be sure.

20 Q. P3005 was shown to you, and in item 52 a particular person was

21 shown to you, and the whole list has 348 policemen -- or, rather,

22 employees of the Public Security Station in September. What does that

23 number really mean?

24 A. That is totally unclear to me. I can only speak about

25 active-duty policemen whom I knew. It must be that the police station

Page 34146

1 was replenished from the reserve police force.

2 Q. On page 74, you were asked what did Veselic say when you informed

3 him of the group of people killed? Was that news to him or did he know

4 about it even before you returned?

5 A. I'm not quite clear. You mean the people whom we identified?

6 Q. Yes, after he sent you on that assignment.

7 A. When he sent us on that assignment, he did not tell us the number

8 of victims. He just said that the town needs to be sanitised, and we had

9 to go on a particular location to identify victims.

10 Q. So this sanitisation or burial of people, was it possible before

11 you identify them.

12 A. We have to identify them first.

13 Q. On page 66 there was talk about authorities in Brcko. Who was in

14 power de facto and who was in power de jure in Brcko before Davidovic's

15 arrival?

16 A. Before Mr. Davidovic came to Brcko, I maintain with full

17 responsibility that all the power was in the hands of paramilitary units.

18 Q. De jure or de facto? Factually or legally speaking?

19 A. Factually.

20 Q. On page 64, esteemed Ms. McKenna suggested that you left on the

21 30th and left Ramic as president of the municipality and then returned on

22 the 3rd of May only to find that Ristanic had become president of the

23 municipality. Could you tell us what area, what surface of the Brcko

24 municipality was controlled by the Serb side, by the Muslim side, and the

25 Croat side respectively?

Page 34147

1 A. In my estimate, the Serbs controlled the inner centre, the core

2 of the town, including one of the largest local communes in Brcko,

3 whereas the other side controlled other parts of town. So it was about

4 50/50.

5 Q. Was -- did Mr. Ristanic have any authority in the other half of

6 town?

7 A. It is my personal conviction that Ristanic had absolutely no

8 power, no way to exert authority before Davidovic came.

9 Q. Who was the president of the municipality in the Muslim part of

10 Brcko?

11 A. I believe it was Mustafa Ramic.

12 Q. Thank you.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now look at D41 -- no.

14 D1436.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. You confirmed today that you had heard Mr. Dragan Andan had been

17 in Brcko to appraise the situation. Now I should like to show you his

18 report of 17 June. I will go briefly through it. It says in paragraph 2

19 that when he arrived on the 29th of May, there was absolutely no work in

20 the Public Security Station of Brcko except for duty service; is that

21 correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. It says the station had no station commander, and the section of

24 IDs and that kind of work was done directly through the chief of the

25 station, and then it says:

Page 34148

1 "Through the direct involvement of inspectors from the Serbian

2 Ministry of Internal Affairs of Bosnia and Herzegovina as well as direct

3 assistance by the chief, we succeeded in establishing or restoring the

4 service."

5 Do you remember this?

6 A. I remember that nothing worked at that time. Now, how much he

7 managed to do and with whose assistance, I can't say, but I suppose that

8 this is correct.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the next page.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Is it the case really that part of the police officers were

12 assigned to combat duty?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. It says at the top of this page that withdrawing police officers

15 from the front lines, we have divided the territory into patrol districts

16 and sectors.

17 Could we now see the last page, please.

18 It says:

19 "Paramilitary units, those of Captain Dragan and Chetnik units

20 and units led by a certain Goran Jelisic and independent units from

21 Ugljevik, are exerting pressure on the police station, and on two

22 occasion" - could we see the next page - "they even attempted armed

23 attacks on the Public Security Station."

24 Is this correct?

25 A. Yes.

Page 34149

1 Q. Then it says it is all linked with their robberies and the terror

2 they inflicted upon the population.

3 JUDGE KWON: First, we are not seeing the passage. Number two,

4 it's leading. What's the point of reading out the documents to the

5 witness?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I only want to see if this report

7 is accurate and whether it's consistent with what the witness knew. The

8 suggestion was put to him that Jelisic was a member of the MUP, whereas

9 this MUP official refers to a certain Jelisic who attacks the police

10 station.

11 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, you are not --

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is on the previous page.

13 JUDGE KWON: You are not cross-examining. You are not allowed to

14 put leading questions, as you know well by now.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I can ask this first.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. How did the policemen treat those paramilitaries, Jelisic and

18 others?

19 A. The same as mine. They were afraid of him. They gave him a wide

20 berth, avoided him in all ways.

21 Q. Now, now in first paragraph, towards the bottom it says:

22 "For instance, one Goran Jelisic perpetrated crimes of rape and

23 murder against innocent Muslims. He bragged around Brcko and Bijeljina

24 about his evil doings. The employees of the police in direct contact

25 with him are in fear of him, thinking that he might pull a weapon against

Page 34150

1 them at any time, because he is, they say, unpredictable, and it is

2 enough for a policeman to look at him the wrong way for a conflict to

3 break out."

4 What can you say about this?

5 A. We were all really in fear of him, and we did everything to avoid

6 him or come anywhere near him.

7 Q. This report, this appraisal of the situation, was made on the

8 17th of June. Let us now see what was said about the same thing on the

9 17th of July. 18th July.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see P1581.

11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12 Q. It was put to you that there were some people from the reserve

13 police force on this list, people whom you did not recognise and you did

14 not consider as policemen.

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm afraid this is not the right

16 document. I was asking for P1581. It's D, D1581, a Defence exhibit.

17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18 Q. Under which security services centre was Brcko?

19 A. Bijeljina.

20 Q. Thank you. Do you see the second paragraph here? It says part

21 of the reserve force of the police was taken off the roster and made

22 available to the Army of Republika Srpska. From the Public Security

23 Station of Brcko, 170 policemen are involved in combat. What can you

24 tell us about this?

25 A. I cannot make out this text very well, but I believe that's

Page 34151

1 correct.

2 MS. McKENNA: Once again --

3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. McKenna.

4 MS. McKENNA: Once again, Mr. Karadzic appears to be leading via

5 the medium of this document.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm only asking if it is true that

7 they were taken off the roster through the intervention of Andan, whether

8 these reserve policemen were removed, because that is indeed one of the

9 questions asked of this witness.

10 JUDGE KWON: You could have put that question before putting the

11 document to the witness. That's the way in which you should ask

12 questions.

13 Now, do you have more, Mr. Karadzic?

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have two documents to show, but I

15 will conclude very quickly. I'll call perhaps only one.

16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Let me ask you first what transpired after the arrival of the

18 special unit from Serbia headed by Davidovic?

19 A. When they arrived, order was restored in town. We also received

20 reinforcements from Bijeljina in order to be able to function more or

21 less normally, and thanks to the arrival of Mr. Davidovic and his unit,

22 we succeeded.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see D1412.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. This is dated 8th August. By what time was this action to remove

Page 34152

1 the paramilitaries over?

2 A. I believe it lasted for a month, perhaps, so that they were

3 actively involved in restoring order in town. It could have been more

4 than a month.

5 Q. I should like to ask you now whether this particular passage is

6 correct. It says due to accumulated problems, they were invited. The

7 MUP of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina asked the federal

8 secretary of the interior, et cetera, et cetera, and then it lists their

9 tasks, to restore order, stabilise the security situation, establish the

10 legality of work and normal functioning of the organs of internal affairs

11 and ensuring the legitimacy of the organs of authority. What does this

12 last thing mean?

13 A. It means to ensure that the Crisis Staff's work is legitimate and

14 that it is able to work normally.

15 Q. Did the MUP of Republika Srpska act jointly and in a co-ordinated

16 manner with Mr. Davidovic's unit, and what was the role of you from the

17 police station of Brcko?

18 A. When he arrived, we consolidated to the best of our ability, and

19 we felt much safer and stronger in going about our daily tasks.

20 Q. One of the last questions put to you was the fleeing of people

21 due to lawlessness. What period does that relate to, before or after

22 Davidovic?

23 A. Before Davidovic's arrival.

24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I have no further

25 questions.