Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 34969

 1                           Thursday, 7 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Again today we'll be

 7     sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis with Judge Robinson -- I'm sorry,

 8     Judge Morrison being away due to his official functions.

 9             Good morning, Ms. Edgerton.  Please continue.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

11                           WITNESS:  DESIMIR SARENAC [Resumed]

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

14        Q.   Good morning, Lieutenant-Colonel.

15        A.   Good morning.

16        Q.   I'd just like to go back to a couple of things you discussed

17     yesterday and one of them is at page 45 - I'm sorry I don't have the

18     updated page references available - where you discussed the potential for

19     mobilisation of Muslim forces within Sarajevo, and you said that after

20     the war they had 120.000 armed combat amounts in the city.  Now, you

21     don't mean to assert that that figure of 120.000 is accurate, do you?

22        A.   This is their information, from their sources.  Of course I did

23     not have any other possibilities to check this.

24        Q.   Well, your own deputy commander, Colonel Sladoje has actually

25     given a statement to Dr. Karadzic's Defence counsel in this case and he

Page 34970

 1     says that through the intelligence service he learned that there were

 2     42.000 fighters in the ABiH 1st Corps and their 24-hour mobilisation

 3     potential was 71.000 - and that's found in 1D05656, paragraph 1.  So

 4     that's actually 50.000 less than the figure that you've given and, by

 5     Colonel Sladoje's account, that actually comes from your services,

 6     doesn't it?

 7        A.   I'm saying that they mentioned this information when their former

 8     commanders wrote about that.  It was published in the newspapers and

 9     obviously they had an enormous potential.

10        Q.   And whatever potential they might have had, Lieutenant-Colonel,

11     you knew, didn't you, that the morale among the 1st Corps forces was low

12     and continued to diminish as the war went on, their forces were dying in

13     large numbers, they had problems with -- and they had problems with mass

14     desertions; isn't that correct?

15        A.   Yes.  Such information was available, of course.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Now, also in your testimony yesterday you spoke on a

17     couple of occasions about laser-guided missiles, talking about shelling,

18     you said that it would have to be laser guided so that an artillery shell

19     would fall somewhere into the street or onto a square.  And that wasn't

20     possible given the equipment that existed there.  And then at page 65 of

21     yesterday's transcript, again you said:

22             "People on the ground were convinced at first that it was

23     certainly not Serbian forces who had done that, and in my view it was

24     open logic because this took place in a small space, small tight areas.

25     For a mortar or a shell to reach such position, it would have to be laser

Page 34971

 1     guided to hit such a spot."

 2             And I only want to ask you about this reference to laser guiding

 3     missiles or ordnances.  The point you were making yesterday, I take it,

 4     depends on the assumption that if someone is targeting a small area, a

 5     tight place or a narrow street, as you said, so the point that you're

 6     making depends on that as opposed to someone just shelling -- generally

 7     shelling or randomly shelling a populated area, doesn't it?

 8        A.   Yes.  During my service, inter alia, I had mortars in my unit

 9     while I was a platoon commander, of course, before the war and so on.  I

10     know that it was necessary to use at least three missiles to reach close

11     to a specific point and to be able then to shell the area.  That was, of

12     course, before the war and so on and so forth.  So to have just one shell

13     falling in a specific small area, that's absolutely impossible.  I was

14     talking about that, that it could have been brought by a bird or it could

15     have been laser guided, and it couldn't have been otherwise.

16        Q.   So if you're aiming at a particular spot as opposed to firing

17     randomly and you don't have a laser guidance system, how far off are you

18     going to be?

19        A.   This kind of artillery weapon such as cannons, howitzers,

20     mortars, generally speaking, I'm not aware that they can be laser guided.

21     The only ones that can be guided by laser are rocket systems and rocket

22     weapons.  So simply, any possibility of using mortar shells with a laser

23     guidance system is not possible.  There's no need for me to explain the

24     other thing because a mortar missile or shell simply cannot be laser

25     guided.

Page 34972

 1             And for one shell to fall in one specific place, that's

 2     impossible.  If we had had such abilities, we would have selected more

 3     profitable targets probably.  We would have selected ammunition depots or

 4     a unit that was well prepared and at a position or we would have selected

 5     their staff and so on.  Why would the Serbs target a market?  Poor

 6     people -- each and every Serb knew that if there was to be a mistake,

 7     that we could cause a reaction of the international public, both

 8     international and domestic public.  So why would we shell people who were

 9     queuing for bread or queuing for water?  It was just a motive that the

10     Muslims had to cause revolt of their own citizens against the Serbs, on

11     the one hand, and, on the other hand, to provoke a reaction of the

12     international community.

13        Q.   So let's go back to my question.  How far off are you going to

14     be?

15        A.   I can only tell you from my own experience, from the time when I

16     was a platoon commander and while I had those mortars under me, it could

17     happen that the first shell was fired and it would fall on one spot.  The

18     next one would fall at least 50 metres from the first one.  If it was

19     50 metres, that was good, it could be a hundred metres because the

20     charges were different, the weight of the propellants and the charges was

21     different and the weight of the shells themselves was different.  So you

22     could never very precisely determine where it would be, otherwise you

23     wouldn't need any corrections.  Corrections are made precisely so that

24     you could hit one specific spot, and in order to fire as a group, you

25     have to correct the aberration.  There's always the aberration and when

Page 34973

 1     it's 25 metres that you manage to achieve then --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Sarenac, do you remember what the question was?

 3             Could you ask the question again, Ms. Edgerton.

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  I can, although I think he's -- the

 5     Lieutenant-Colonel has made his way around to an answer.

 6        Q.   My question was:  So if you're aiming at a particular spot as

 7     opposed to firing randomly and you don't have a laser guidance system,

 8     how far off are you going to be?

 9        A.   Well, I said a while ago only that I tried to explain in more

10     detail, 50 to 100 metre, at least a 50-metre aberration in my experience.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Now -- just one moment, please.

12                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

13             MS. EDGERTON:

14        Q.   So then, taking into account everything that you've just said, it

15     sounds like, if you're aiming at a particular target, it's going to take

16     at least three shells to engage it, to neutralise it; is that correct?

17        A.   Yes, you could say so.  I would accept that.

18        Q.   All right.  Yesterday Dr. Karadzic showed you a document and that

19     was D3092, and perhaps we could call that up on the screen so that you

20     can be reminded of what Dr. Karadzic showed you.  It was an official note

21     regarding an interview with a Mr. Kostic, and when Dr. Karadzic showed

22     you that document he said to you:

23             "I will ask you to show us in this example how you worked and how

24     you obtained intelligence."

25             Now, looking at this document again, you would agree with me that

Page 34974

 1     in order for this raw data to become intelligence it needs to be

 2     corroborated by other means, doesn't it?

 3        A.   Yes, of course.  You can see down here below the title it says:

 4     Reference, official note of 27 February 1995.  So this was the second

 5     interview, the clarification of the issue with regard to this source.

 6     However, we did not have the first and only information.  He did not

 7     provide us with the first information nor did it end with this.  Rather,

 8     as I already said, this information was forwarded to the security and

 9     intelligence organ in the corps and then the corps' intelligence and

10     security organ had at its disposal the intelligence and reconnaissance

11     units, also electronic interception units, wire-tapping, and so on.  On

12     the other hand, observers from our own unit, in a group of ten soldiers

13     in every platoon and company there was one soldier who was in charge of

14     observation.  He had to observe the air-space, the battle-field, and so

15     on.  And only when the conversations and interviews were confirmed -- and

16     to have the information confirmed, this was 1995.  We already had an

17     enormous amount of data so we made a selection, what is true and what is

18     not.  Immediately here we would do the analysis, and in the corps they

19     would do it when everything was sent to them.  No action could be carried

20     out on the basis of our information from the brigade.  Something could be

21     initiated only from the corps once they completed it.

22        Q.   And not everything was sent to the corps, was it?

23        A.   Everything was sent to the corps.  If something was not sent to

24     them, then it means that that piece of information was not relevant and

25     that on the basis of it you couldn't -- otherwise, what would be the

Page 34975

 1     purpose of collecting and writing down information unless the information

 2     was sent to the corps, to the higher command, so that the higher command

 3     and unit would see if there are any elements for something to be done.

 4     So everything was forwarded to the corps.

 5        Q.   Now -- so looking at this raw data --

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  And I wonder if we can make the English page a

 7     little bit smaller so that the rest of us can have somewhere close to the

 8     same amount of text that we see on the B/C/S page.

 9        Q.   So this raw data doesn't disclose anything about how Mr. Kostic

10     came to learn the information he's providing, does it?  This document

11     doesn't disclose that at all?

12        A.   Well, I will indicate once again the information within brackets:

13     Reference, official note of 27 February 1995 on the interview conducted

14     with Jovan Kostic.  In this report all the information is explained, how

15     he came by that, where he had been, and so on.  And this is just a

16     continuation of the first note.  So in the first note, all of this is

17     explained, and that is to say, there was another note preceding this one.

18        Q.   And where would we find indications about reliability of the

19     source?  Because there's nothing in this note .

20        A.   Of course this note doesn't say that.  This note includes

21     specific details that he mentioned in another interview, in the second

22     interview, not in the first one.  And as this was sent to the corps for

23     analysis and processing, then we did not provide here.  That was provided

24     separately in a report.  If a report was written, then it was included in

25     a report, but in this case, this was sent to the corps and it was only

Page 34976

 1     there that they made the comparisons.  Their analytical department then

 2     established everything else.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  I don't have any more questions about this document.

 4     I'd like to go on to one other area you discussed yesterday.  You -- at

 5     page 68 of yesterday's transcript, you gave Dr. Karadzic an account about

 6     a sniping of an UNPROFOR French soldier who was killed in a observation

 7     post located at the Jewish cemetery.  And you talked about being assigned

 8     to tour your positions with UNPROFOR.  And I'd like to ask you about

 9     that.  So your evidence is that you personally accompanied UNPROFOR

10     officials to the incident location?

11        A.   Yes, right.

12        Q.   So who did you go with?

13        A.   Well, look, I did not draw up a note about who I went there with,

14     but after that, the television of Republika Srpska wanted to conduct an

15     interview.  I'm not sure whether they interviewed them.  I resisted for a

16     while because as a high-ranking officer, a major at the time, without the

17     approval of the superior command I had no right to appear on TV.

18     However, from the command of the corps this was approved and they told me

19     that I could give an interview about the findings and so on.  And this

20     interview can be found somewhere in the archives of the radio and

21     television of Republika Srpska because I know --

22        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel --

23        A.   -- that it was broadcast on several occasions --

24        Q.   -- that's okay, but my question was who you went with, and I take

25     from your answer you didn't -- you don't recall --

Page 34977

 1        A.   I went --

 2        Q.   -- is that correct?

 3        A.   I don't remember.  But I know that I went there with UNPROFOR

 4     officers who had come to lodge a protest with the corps command, and then

 5     the corps command assigned me as the soldiers from my brigade were there

 6     at the line.  So they sent me to tour the lines together with them and to

 7     assess whether it had been possible for a sniper to fire from our

 8     positions --

 9        Q.   All right.

10        A.   -- that is to say, the positions of the Sarajevo-Romanija

11     Brigade.

12        Q.   All right.  Now, this was an incident -- or during this incident,

13     the French soldier was killed at the OP that was on the transit road,

14     wasn't he, at the south end of the Jewish cemetery; is that right?

15        A.   Yes, yes, in the south end.

16        Q.   And that observation post, that OP, was located almost at the

17     confrontation line; is that right?

18        A.   In that area generally, yes, that was built-up area.  There were

19     buildings and high-rises and our lines were close, one next to the other,

20     so to speak.

21        Q.   And that incident actually took place in August 1994, didn't it?

22        A.   Yes, I remember that it was summer in 1994 and now you remind me

23     that it was in August, so probably.

24        Q.   And yesterday you talked about SRK positions being down the hill

25     from the incident location, but actually having toured the line, as you

Page 34978

 1     just said you did, you can confirm to us that SRK positions weren't only

 2     down the hill from the observation post but they ran the -- along the

 3     whole length of the Jewish cemetery and the whole west -- the whole area

 4     to the western side of the Jewish cemetery; correct?

 5        A.   Yes, that is so.  But the position of the Jewish cemetery and the

 6     geographical feature in general is such that it was above us.  The Muslim

 7     positions were located so that they were above us.  They were looking at

 8     us from above, in that section, all the way to Grbavica.

 9        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, did you know that there was a UN

10     investigation made of this incident?  The French military police with the

11     UN forces conducted an investigation?

12        A.   That was how I understood them.  As soon as they arrived to the

13     corps command and when I went to make this tour together with them, to

14     visit the locations, the finding that they sent to the corps command is

15     something I'm not aware of, but I know that it was then concluded to the

16     effect that the Serbian side was not to blame.

17        Q.   Well, actually, I'd like to show you the report, a couple of

18     pages from the report that was made on the investigation, and that report

19     is 65 ter number 24727.  And the report's dated the 19th of August.  And

20     just before I ask the question I just want to note, can you read English,

21     Lieutenant-Colonel, because, unfortunately, I don't think I have a copy

22     of this in your language and I can read you the relevant passage if you

23     can't.

24        A.   Unfortunately not, no.  I can't read English.

25        Q.   All right.  This is -- this is a copy of, as I said, the military

Page 34979

 1     police company's report on their investigation of this incident.

 2             MS. EDGERTON:  And I'd like to actually go all the way over to

 3     page 7 of this incident -- of this document.

 4             [Microphone not activated]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Oh, I'm sorry.

 7        Q.   At the last bullet point at the bottom of this page above item

 8     number 2, we see the last of a series of conclusions that the military

 9     police arrived at following their investigation.  They wrote:

10             "It is impossible to determine exactly which side is responsible

11     for this murder because no other UN soldier can explain the exact

12     position of the blue helmet ... before he was killed."

13             So UNPROFOR seems to have come to a different conclusion than

14     you've indicated with respect to the cause of death of the soldier,

15     haven't they?

16        A.   Yes, obviously, and they said this knowing the activities of our

17     soldiers and knowing that at Zlatiste, above the Jewish cemetery, some

18     Muslim forces were deployed.  They were part of the 15th Mountain

19     Brigade.  So we actually knew and it was clear to us that fire had not

20     come from our side.  In addition to their findings, we were certain that

21     the fire had not come from our side.

22        Q.   Let's go over to page 9 of this document, and at page 9 you'll

23     see --

24             MS. EDGERTON:  And perhaps we could blow it up for the

25     Lieutenant-Colonel just so he can see it as clearly as possible.  I think

Page 34980

 1     we could make the whole -- thank you.

 2        Q.   At page 9 you see the confrontation lines between your forces and

 3     the Bosnian forces mapped out, the area in question, that's the black

 4     line.  And then you see a small wedge above the white text box in the

 5     corner.  The bottom line of the wedge is marked with a number 1 and

 6     that's the observation line or indicated as being the observation line of

 7     the killed soldier.  The point of the wedge, that's item number -- marked

 8     as number 3 is the observation post on the transit road, as you know.

 9     And the line above the top line of the wedge is marked with item number 2

10     is the line of fire of the shooting, which, Lieutenant-Colonel, covers a

11     substantial area within Serb-held territory in Grbavica and actually is

12     completely and far away from the potential line of fire you've just

13     indicated at Zlatiste, isn't it?

14        A.   This is a small map, of course, and Zlatiste is this whole

15     geographic feature up there, right above the transit line.  In other

16     words, the Jewish cemetery is part of Zlatiste, in fact, but is just

17     called differently.  I can see this but I can't give you any other

18     opinion or explanation than I've already done.

19        Q.   Well, it appears, actually, that the information you gave as to

20     the potential source of fire or line of fire is inaccurate based on the

21     military police investigations, isn't it?

22        A.   Well, of course I did not have this -- these findings of theirs

23     available.  When I was part of their team, they did not conduct an

24     on-site investigation.  So I couldn't point out to them on the ground

25     right then and there because they didn't know every feature and every

Page 34981

 1     point and so on, so I couldn't point out to them that there were other

 2     positions above.  However, at that point in time, this position where the

 3     observation post was was not physically visible from our side.

 4        Q.   Your evidence is that this observation post was not physically

 5     visible anywhere from the whole expanse of Serb-held territory indicated

 6     to its west on this map, the observation post which would have been

 7     placed at that location so as to be able to observe the front lines,

 8     Lieutenant-Colonel?

 9        A.   Yes, that's correct.  That is my conclusion, or rather, we found

10     that out.  We knew that it wasn't visible; however, from our positions,

11     because they were on a higher position in relation to us, they could

12     observe our activities and our positions without us being able to see

13     them.  There are also buildings below there and certain vegetation and so

14     on so that he could and was in a position to be able to observe us

15     without us being able to see him because of where he was, of his

16     position.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, I'll have nothing further, but I

18     wonder if we could have this page of this document marked as a

19     Prosecution exhibit, given the extensive discussion on it, please.

20             JUDGE KWON:  What page do you refer to?

21             MS. EDGERTON:  This is page 9.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Only page 9?

23             MS. EDGERTON:  I think so.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  I think it would also be good -- we don't have any

Page 34982

 1     objection to that.  I think it would also be good to put in page 7 which

 2     was referred to earlier which contains the conclusions of the

 3     investigation.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  And as well as the first page.  Yes, we'll admit

 5     three pages.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6187, Your Honours.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9             Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.  I have a few.  But I

11     would like to make an intervention in the transcript, page 13, on lines 5

12     and 6, the Lieutenant-Colonel said, "They were not visible from our

13     positions."  And the Lieutenant-Colonel keeps talking about "positions,"

14     the positions of the VRS.

15             Now, could we please have the image that the document we've just

16     seen before, could we see it on the screens, page 7 first and then on.

17                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, I will read the first

19     paragraph for you in English slowly and that will be interpreted to you.

20             [In English] "The soldier Carbonnel was hit by one bullet only in

21     the course of the cross-fire between the opposing parties ..."

22             [Interpretation] Cross-fire.  So was this execution or was this

23     in the course -- in cross-fire in fact?

24        A.   Is that a question meant for me?

25        Q.   Yes, Lieutenant-Colonel.  It is their claim here that he was

Page 34983

 1     killed in cross-fire between the two sides.  Would you agree with that?

 2        A.   Well, the first version when they first talked about this, there

 3     was no mention of that possibility.  There was only talk about him being

 4     killed by a sniper.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have the next page,

 7     please.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Page 9.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Now, that's page 9 or the third page of the adopted -- the

11     admitted document.  You talked about positions, dominant positions, and

12     inferior positions in geographic terms.  On this map, can we see who was

13     on a higher position and who was at the lower position?

14        A.   Well, no, you can't see that because this is not a topographic

15     map -- I mean, it is but this part which shows the settled area, the

16     built-up area, you cannot really see that.  You can only see it if you're

17     on the ground.  Because below the transit road, that is a depression, a

18     slope.  It -- this part here slopes down towards Grbavica from the

19     transit road.

20        Q.   Thank you.  But in terms of the Jewish cemetery, please look at

21     the western-most and the eastern-most border.  Which area is lower and

22     which one is dominant in this map, can you tell?

23        A.   Well, the western border is lower than the eastern in comparison

24     to the Jewish cemetery, so the one towards the transit is lower.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And who was on these -- on this elevation towards

Page 34984

 1     Debelo Brdo?  Who controlled that part?  It's all the way to the south of

 2     this map --

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  Well, we could just look at the map that the

 4     Lieutenant-Colonel marked yesterday as to who controlled Debelo Brdo.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see a problem asking the witness here.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Debelo Brdo, if I can find my

 7     bearings here, was under Muslim control.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you were asked about the accuracy of the

10     lines.  Now, in your interviews, did you check what this defector, this

11     person who had crossed over, knew about the lines or what he knew about

12     the firing positions?

13        A.   Well, of course, the accurate positions were determined by

14     certain features that were used as reference points showing that there

15     was something at that place.  There was -- there were -- there was

16     military personnel in the features.  The weapons were outside in the

17     field.  Now, in this particular case that's how it was.  Now, we were not

18     able to get from him specific geographic co-ordinates, but he was able to

19     just tell us about certain features that -- and that's how we could

20     determine where that was.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Now, do -- if you have your statement before you --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And I would appreciate the

23     Trial Chamber allowing the statement to use his statement, if we could

24     perhaps pull it up.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Unfortunately, I don't have it

Page 34985

 1     before me.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Well, I can read out a portion of it, although it hasn't been

 4     admitted, but just as a reminder.  You were asked how you established

 5     what --

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What -- yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't think it's appropriate --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MS. EDGERTON:  -- to put his statement to him, his draft

11     statement.

12             JUDGE KWON:  No.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Well --

14             JUDGE KWON:  But I don't -- Mr. Karadzic didn't indicate why his

15     showing this document is necessary.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I can indicate that because I

17     was the one who suggested Dr. Karadzic do this.  The point is, in his

18     statement he has identified certain documents as showing the locations of

19     places where there were military objects, legitimate military objects in

20     Sarajevo.  And it's our intention to make a bar table motion at the end

21     of his testimony to admit those documents --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Why could he not have done during his direct?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Because that would take about four to six hours,

24     so that was the whole purpose of making the map because you wouldn't

25     admit the documents as associated exhibits so we came to the quandary of

Page 34986

 1     how to not use our 300 hours unnecessarily.  So we had the map drawn and

 2     which depicts the military objects that are identified in these

 3     documents.  But yesterday, Ms. Edgerton pointed out that there was some

 4     variation in the map, for example, with the dentistry ministry, between

 5     where he marked it and where the location was.  So we think that the

 6     documents will help you determine exactly what those military objects

 7     were.

 8             So what we would like to do is now simply ask the witness by

 9     showing his statement about how he came to draw this map and to establish

10     that the map was based upon these documents which are reliable and which

11     are based on information received by him or his service.  Once we've done

12     that, we can then make a bar table motion and there will be no question

13     as to the provenance of those documents we're seeking to admit through

14     the bar table.

15             JUDGE KWON:  That being the case, still why does he need to rely

16     on his draft statement?  Can he not lead it directly without relying on

17     the document -- statement?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, the statement contains references to the

19     numbers of the documents, so by showing him the statement and having him

20     confirm that -- there's three paragraphs in the statement that --

21             JUDGE KWON:  So why don't we use a map and without relying on the

22     document put the question to the witness without the statement?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, if we do that, then there won't be a link

24     between the particular 1D numbers that we're going to ask to be admitted

25     in the bar table and the objects on the map, but if you think that's

Page 34987

 1     enough for the purposes -- I'm telling you what our purpose is.  If you

 2     think it's enough and it won't be a problem later when we make a bar

 3     table motion, we'll do it that way --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just tell us the number of the

 5     paragraphs you are referring to as a -- by way of example.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  29, 32, and I think 35 is the third one.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not still persuaded why Mr. Karadzic needs to

 8     show these paragraphs to the witness.

 9             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, I obviously leave most of this to

11     Ms. Edgerton, but I need to repeat to the Court what I said to

12     Mr. Robinson when he first indicated to us that -- well, at -- just

13     before this witness was to testify, that they would be using a map.  I

14     told him at that time that that -- I didn't know exactly how they

15     intended to use it, but it appeared to be a transparent and obvious

16     attempt to circumvent the Trial Chamber's order.  Now it's not only

17     transparent, in my submission, but it's admitted.  This is merely an

18     attempt to get around the Trial Chamber's order in a way that not only

19     undermines the spirit of the order, but it -- and, in fact, frankly, the

20     letter of the order, but also provides the Chamber with much less

21     information than it was seeking when it made the order in the first

22     place, that these documents and the testimony be led live.

23             So Ms. Edgerton may want to address more detailed aspects of

24     this, but this is -- this is exactly what we were concerned it might turn

25     out to be and now it's acknowledged as such explicitly by Mr. Robinson.

Page 34988

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, your order was that we not

 4     have all these documents be associated exhibits because it was burdensome

 5     to the Chamber to review 230 documents as associated exhibits.  So based

 6     on that advice, we decided to try to present it by way of this map.  But

 7     now that the accuracy of the map has been questioned, we think that it's

 8     fair that the documents themselves be admitted and the Chamber can see

 9     then for itself at the -- during its deliberations exactly what the

10     military -- legitimate military targets in Sarajevo were.

11             So we don't see that this is circumventing your ruling, but we

12     think that it's actually implementing it in the same way that the witness

13     is here to be questioned about the reliability and provenance of the

14     documents.  And he's been -- that has happened.  And so we want to make

15     sure that there's an adequate basis for you to admit these from the bar

16     table, that's the purpose.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a -- whether to admit those documents through a

18     bar table motion is a separate matter, a matter that the Chamber will

19     deal with when it arises.  However, still I do not see the point why

20     Mr. Karadzic has to show this paragraph 29, et cetera, to the witness.

21     If necessary, he can deal with it one by one, as ordered by the Chamber.

22     And I expected that he would have done it during his direct examination,

23     but it -- after being challenged, he may deal with point by point through

24     the map and the documents relevant to those locations if necessary.  But

25     showing this paragraph in lump sum does not serve any purpose.

Page 34989

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, the problem is that it --

 2     within the time that it would take for him to go through these documents

 3     one by one, we could call about 20 witnesses.  And it's our estimation

 4     that it's not worth it for us to waste -- spend that kind of time --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  It's your strategy -- it's up to the Defence what

 6     strategy it should take.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, then, the problem is that the Chamber is

 8     going to be deprived of information that it ought to have.  So if the

 9     Chamber believes that these documents should be led one by one, we would

10     like to ask the Chamber to give us an additional four hours --

11             JUDGE KWON:  No --

12             MR. ROBINSON:  -- to the total of 300.

13             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's out of the point.  300 hours is more than

14     sufficient.  It is the -- the Chamber is of the view that it is

15     sufficient enough, and I will consult with my colleagues.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber sees no reason to change its position.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well, Mr. President.  We'll make the motion

19     for the bar table and see how it turns out.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, let me ask you this specifically.  By

24     looking at the documents, were you able to determine that this feature

25     was used as a military object?

Page 34990

 1        A.   Yes, we established that without any uncertainty.

 2        Q.   I asked whether you established or not, and tell us this:  What

 3     about the Kosevo Hospital, how reliable are the documents on the abuse

 4     of --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, just a second.

 6             How does it arise from the line of cross-examination?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was challenged here, the map was

 8     challenged, the sources, the grounds, they were all challenged, and I

 9     intend to proffer these documents later on, and I would like to hear from

10     the witness here whether the positions that are mentioned here that we

11     have documents for, whether they are accurate and whether this was

12     checked.  And my question was misinterpreted.  It sounds as a leading

13     question the way it's worded.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Your specific question about the location or -- of

17     Kosevo Hospital is not arising from the cross-examination.  Please move

18     on.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please call up the map

20     that was shown yesterday in relation to Bjelave and it had to do with

21     Cekalusa Street.  Could we have someone's assistance here, please?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, 6186, exhibit --

23             MS. EDGERTON:  It's on the screen.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 34991

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Lieutenant-Colonel, sir, can you tell us what Bjelave is, is that

 3     a street or what?

 4        A.   Well, Bjelave is a neighbourhood, it is a settlement, a part of

 5     town.  It comprises a number of streets.  There is a police club there, a

 6     special police unit, and so on.  And Bjelave was interesting and I wanted

 7     to show that this happened in Bjelave because it was helpful to present

 8     the positions of the weapons and units.  So it was helpful to show it in

 9     Bjelave as a settlement.

10        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  Now, if we go from here westward, what is

11     the next neighbourhood?

12        A.   Well, Ciglane, or rather, Mejtas.

13        Q.   Yes, that's to the south but if you go to the west?

14        A.   Yes, Ciglane.

15        Q.   Do you see Cekalusa Street there?  We see the Gabelina-Cekalusa

16     Street there.  You can also see the mosque.  It runs parallel to where it

17     says "Ciglane" and it's on the Bjelave side.  Close to numbers 42 and 57,

18     can you see it?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Could the usher kindly put the cursor on --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes, yes, yes.  Yes.  Yes,

21     yes.  I can see the street, Cekalusa Street.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you see the green spaces down there?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   To which settlement does Cekalusa belong of the two, Ciglane or

Page 34992

 1     Bjelave?

 2        A.   As far as that is concerned, judging by the names of the

 3     settlements here, it's closer to Ciglane.

 4        Q.   And judging by the geographic configuration?

 5        A.   Well, as this here divides it, then it belongs here to Bjelave,

 6     or, rather, to Mejtas.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Just another question, Lieutenant-Colonel.  You said

 8     yesterday that the map is not detailed enough.  Are there any remaining

 9     positions and how many which have not been recorded on this map and it's

10     been verified that they existed?

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton --

13             MS. EDGERTON:  -- that's a leading question.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  Dr. Karadzic has asked a very leading question.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I think that's the question you put

17     in -- during your direct examination.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Just

19     another question.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   How long has your military career been?

22        A.   32 years of pensionable service or actually 35, if we take

23     everything into account.

24        Q.   Thank you.  How long did you command mortars of all the time and

25     in which period of your career?

Page 34993

 1        A.   Well, I commanded the mortars in the first four years when I was

 2     the platoon commander, that is to say, up until 1972, and otherwise, when

 3     you work with them once you never forget it, the effects and the other

 4     thing and so on.  It's a very interesting weapon.

 5        Q.   All right.  Just one more question, please.  You were asked about

 6     corrections on page 5 today.  As for adjustment, fire adjustment, can you

 7     use the fire adjustment for one weapon for firing from another weapon and

 8     from a distant position?

 9        A.   Well, you see, if you fire from a group of mortars, four or five,

10     depends on how many because it depends on the specific unit, then you

11     make the fire adjustments from one weapon and the other weapons follow

12     the elements.  And then the elements are changed, the angle, the

13     distance, and so on.  So once the fire adjustment is made for one weapon

14     and if the result is positive, then you can move on to a group fire.

15        Q.   And can information from azimuth 240 be used from weapons which

16     are on the 170 azimuth?

17        A.   Well --

18             MS. EDGERTON:  Objection.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Where does anything -- first of all, I didn't ask

21     a single question today about corrections, and where does anything about

22     azimuths arise from the cross-examination at any point?

23             JUDGE KWON:  You asked the question with respect to the distance

24     from the original target, and during the course of answering the question

25     he talked about the adjustment.  I will ask my colleagues.

Page 34994

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Ms. Edgerton.  Move on to

 3     another topic, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Then the question would be, Lieutenant-Colonel, whether during

 7     the war you were mostly an intelligence and security officer except for

 8     this one period?

 9        A.   Yes, throughout the war and during the half year that I spent as

10     the battalion commander, I did not neglect my basic duty because I was in

11     charge of intelligence and security issues.

12        Q.   Thank you, Lieutenant-Colonel.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions,

14     Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

16             Mr. Sarenac, that concludes your evidence.  Thank you for your

17     coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too, Your Honours.

19                           [The witness withdrew]

20                           [The witness entered court]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

23     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

24                           WITNESS:  MANE DJURIC

25                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

Page 34995

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Djuric.  Please be seated and make

 2     yourself comfortable.

 3             Before your commence your evidence, Mr. Djuric, I must draw your

 4     attention to a certain rule that we have at this International Tribunal,

 5     that is, Rule 90(E) of the Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  Under this

 6     rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the

 7     Prosecution, or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer

 8     might incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this context,

 9     "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to an admission of

10     guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that might provide

11     evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.  However,

12     should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

13     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

14     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

15     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

16     under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

17     against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving false

18     testimony.

19             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Djuric?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             Mr. Karadzic.

23                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Djuric.

25        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

Page 34996

 1        Q.   As you hail from civilian authorities, I will not address you by

 2     a rank though I believe you held a rank in the police?

 3        A.   Yes, I held the rank of lieutenant-colonel.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And did you -- and before that I will ask you just to

 5     express my warning in accordance with Rule 90, I will just warn you that

 6     we should make pauses between sentences and we should also speak as slow

 7     as possible so that everything would be recorded.

 8        A.   Clear.

 9        Q.   Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

10        A.   Yes, I did.

11        Q.   That was quite fast.  If you can just wait for a second and make

12     a pause.

13        A.   Yes, I gave a statement to the Defence team.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D7826 in

16     e-court.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Do not be confused by the redactions.  By decision of the

19     Trial Chamber it was assessed that some parts were irrelevant, so just

20     neglect that.  And taking that into account, can you see your statement

21     in front of you?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

24        A.   I read it and I signed it.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 34997

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please show the last page to

 2     the witness so that he could identify his signature.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is my signature.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Is this statement one that truthfully conveys what

 6     you told the Defence team?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you the same questions today, would

 9     your answers substantially be the same as in the statement?

10        A.   Yes, absolutely.  My answers would substantially be the same.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this package to be

13     admitted in accordance with the 92 ter rule, but there are several

14     documents that Mr. Djuric was kind enough to bring here himself and I

15     would ask him about them viva voce.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, first of all, I notice that

17     the redactions on the B/C/S version of the statement are not very

18     effective and I'm going to tell our Case Manager to replace that so that

19     the document is more -- is better redacted.  Secondly, we're offering

20     four associated exhibits.  We're asking that each of them be added to the

21     65 ter list because we didn't have them at the time that lists were

22     filed.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Nicholls?

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  No, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  As regards paragraph 44, Mr. Karadzic, of this

Page 34998

 1     witness which refers to a killing of Muslims, death of Muslims, in Drum,

 2     I'm not sure whether it refers to the killing in the indictment because

 3     the indictment refers to the time-frame of June but the witness is

 4     talking about something in April.  So I would like to deal with the issue

 5     with the witness and how he came to know the incident as well.

 6     Otherwise, we'll admit the statement as well as other -- the four

 7     associated exhibits.

 8             Shall we give the number.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The 92 ter statement 1D7826

10     will be Exhibit D3093, and the four associated exhibits will be Exhibits

11     D3094 through D3097 respectively.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will read the summary

14     of Mr. Djuric's statement in the English language.

15             [In English] Mane Djuric was the acting chief of the

16     SJB Vlasenica and became the chief of the same SJB in August 1992.  Also

17     he was a member of the Crisis Staff of Vlasenica municipality throughout

18     1992.  Mane Djuric believes that in Vlasenica the population was roughly

19     half Serbian and half Muslim with very few Croats.  Approximately the

20     same proportions were applied at the Vlasenica SJB after the multi-party

21     elections.  However, competence was not taken into account when

22     appointments were made.

23             The relationship between Muslims and Serbs in Vlasenica was quite

24     good; however, this began to change after the multi-party elections.

25     When the Muslims and Croats proclaimed a sovereign BH, the Serbian people

Page 34999

 1     realised that sovereignty was established against their will and that

 2     none of their requests would be granted because they would be out-voted.

 3     The Serbs looked for a way to protect themselves, and so the idea of

 4     regional association in the Serbian autonomous regions was created and

 5     autonomous regions of Birac was established.

 6             The Crisis Staff was established in early April 1992.

 7     Mane Djuric considers it was common practice for the municipal

 8     authorities to establish a Crisis Staff when people's lives or property

 9     were threatened.  As a joint Assembly in Vlasenica did not function and

10     the security situation deteriorated by the hour, it was decided that a

11     Crisis Staff be established to monitor and take measures to overcome the

12     situation.

13             The Crisis Staff were not always able to consult the SJB chief

14     Sarajevo because the -- CJB, CJB chief of Sarajevo because at the

15     beginning the telephone lines were down and the road to Sarajevo was not

16     passable.  Very soon after the Crisis Staff's creation, a decision was

17     made to divide Vlasenica municipality into three.  Many of the

18     Crisis Staff members left Vlasenica for the municipality of Milici and

19     therefore the Crisis Staff could not function.  Following this, boards of

20     commissioners were established to better inform the Presidency of the

21     Republika Srpska what the situation was in the municipalities.

22             By 19th of April, 1992, a large number of Muslims and Serbs had

23     left the area, and the Crisis Staff of Vlasenica declared an imminent

24     threat of war due to the impossibility of convening the municipal

25     Assembly.  The departure of the Muslim citizens, the damaged interethnic

Page 35000

 1     relations, and the large number of illegal weapons held by civilians.

 2     Further, a decision was adopted taking over power in Vlasenica as the

 3     joint Assembly could not function.

 4             On 21st of April, 1992, the Vlasenica Territorial Defence was

 5     mobilised because the property in public and socially owned enterprises

 6     were threatened.  Many employees remained at home and looting of the

 7     buildings had begun.  There was no fighting or armed resistance in

 8     Vlasenica on that day.

 9             It was common knowledge that both Muslims and Serbs were

10     obtaining arms before the outbreak of the war.  The Serbs acquired most

11     of their weapons legally by being mobilised in the Territorial Defence.

12     However, the Muslims acquired most of their weapons illegally through the

13     SDA party.  Although, the SJB knew this was occurring, it was very

14     difficult for the police to seize the weapons due to the mixed police

15     patrols.  An attempt was made to disarm citizens who possessed illegal

16     weapons.  A number of weapons were handed over; however, not all of the

17     Muslims co-operated.  Intelligence was gathered and interviews were

18     conducted with them.  Those who did not hand over their weapons had

19     criminal reports filed on them.

20             Further, a decision was made by the Crisis Staff to disarm all

21     active reserve members of the police force as the citizens no longer

22     trusted the joint police because it could not guarantee safety due to its

23     composition.  The decision to disarm all of the reserve police was made

24     by the Crisis Staff alone without any orders from higher authorities.

25     After this a number of Muslim men did not return to the police station

Page 35001

 1     for work.  This decision was not an attempt to get rid of the Muslims in

 2     the police.  Nobody was given a decision on termination of employment.

 3     The Muslims decided of their own accord not to become -- to come to work

 4     again.

 5             Mane Djuric recalls that an Intervention Platoon from the army

 6     caused problems in Vlasenica and that reports were filed against them,

 7     and in some cases they resisted the police.  It was proposed that this

 8     unit be put under the control of the police; however, this was

 9     unsuccessful.  Therefore, an order was given for all paramilitary units

10     were disbanded and action was taken against those who broke the law.

11             A procedure was established for those citizens who wished to

12     leave Vlasenica to ensure that they were not being forced out of the

13     territory.  Civilians could not leave until they signed a document saying

14     that they would leave the municipality voluntarily.  This applied both to

15     the Muslims and to the Serbs.  Many Muslims wanted to leave town;

16     however, many did not have their own transportation and therefore they

17     assembled in the front of the municipal buildings and asked for

18     transportation to be provided by the authorities.  At the same time, many

19     Serbs came to Vlasenica as they had been forced to leave their homes by

20     Muslims and travelled to Vlasenica from neighbouring municipalities.

21             Mane Djuric denies that there was a camp for Muslims in Vlasenica

22     as alleged.  He was aware that there was a holding centre for Muslims,

23     Croats, and Serbs who wanted transportation and shelter.  Some people

24     went voluntarily in the evenings to spend the night in the centre before

25     returning to their own homes in the morning.  Serbs wanted

Page 35002

 1     accommodation -- wanting accommodation were accommodated in a building

 2     centre in Susica which was secured by the Territorial Defence and the

 3     VRS.

 4             Mane Djuric was aware that before the outbreak of the armed

 5     conflict the Muslims were establishing their own armed forces because

 6     they planned to wage a war to create a sovereign Islamic BH.  By mid-1991

 7     they had established the Patriotic League and the Green Berets in

 8     Vlasenica.  The Muslims also used the reserve police force as Muslims

 9     were in the majority in this organisation.

10             Mane Djuric attended a meeting at which Radovan Karadzic and at

11     this Karadzic supported the implementation of the law advocating --

12     advocated helping the Muslims and Croats.  Mane Djuric never heard of any

13     Vlasenica municipal officials say that Radovan Karadzic issued an order

14     regarding Muslims that could be threaten lives -- their lives or

15     property.  Further, Mane Djuric considers that the Serbian army did not

16     conquer any territory, merely liberated what had been occupied by the

17     Muslims.

18             [Interpretation] I see the time.  Would you like me to continue

19     with other documents or should we rather do that after the break?

20                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

21             JUDGE KWON:  For the planning purpose, I'm thinking about having

22     two 30-minute breaks, and if a further extension is necessary taking a

23     break of 15 minutes if there's -- I will -- I asked around so we'll be

24     able to know whether it's feasible.  We'll take a break for half an hour

25     and resume three to 11.00.

Page 35003

 1                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

 2                           --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.  Just

 5     a couple things before Mr. Karadzic starts.  One, I won't go into it, but

 6     at page 28, line 9, there's an incorrect statement by Mr. Karadzic about

 7     the redaction.  I don't think the Trial Chamber found anything irrelevant

 8     in ordering it redacted.  I won't go further than that.

 9             Two, when Mr. Karadzic leads the additional documents live, I'd

10     request that he lead and just tell us where, when, and how Mr. Djuric got

11     these documents which he brought so that that doesn't come out of my

12     time, that basic foundation.

13             Third, my understanding from the Defence witness calendar they

14     provide us is that Mr. Djuric arrived in The Hague last Saturday.  Now,

15     the revised transcript has 13 new paragraphs where they went over

16     adjudicated facts with the witness and got new comments on them.  So I

17     don't see why when he brings documents with him it can't be done what the

18     Prosecution always does, which is to include these in a revised statement

19     or give us a proofing note or something.  He complains about the amount

20     of time he has.  He's got to lead this stuff live because he didn't

21     bother to incorporate it.  Thank you.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  The reason it wasn't

24     incorporated in the statement is because we don't have -- we didn't have

25     enough time to get the documents translated.  And since you don't accept

Page 35004

 1     associated exhibits of untranslated documents we didn't put it in the

 2     statement.  Mr. Nicholls is correct, we should give a proofing note when

 3     we receive the documents and some explanations of what their relevance

 4     are and we'll try to do that in the future.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 7             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I wouldn't like to

 9     spoil the concord between Mr. Nicholls and Mr. Robinson, but Mr. Nicholls

10     hasn't spent a day in detention and I have to conduct my defence from the

11     Detention Unit, thus meeting the witnesses only once they have arrived --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, it's an inappropriate comment.  Please

13     continue.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was supposed to be a joke,

15     Your Excellency.  I don't know whether I managed to convey it but ...

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Mr. Djuric, do you have your statement before you in hard copy?

18        A.   I do.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, may the witness

20     rely on his statement on a hard copy before him?

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, if necessary you may refer -- you may consult

22     with your statement.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Djuric, kindly go to paragraph 44 of your statement in order

25     to shed some light on certain things.  It says:

Page 35005

 1             "I do know that people were killed on both sides in the fighting

 2     in the Muslim villages of Pliskavice, Drum, Gradina, et cetera ..."

 3             When you say that they were killed sometime later, what does it

 4     refer to?

 5        A.   The first activity was on the side of the Territorial Defence in

 6     early May.  The next operation or activity was jointly with the army

 7     sometime in June.  As far as I know, in the previous activities there

 8     were no casualties.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  So on the 21st of April -- well, the victims on both

10     sides at the three locations, that does not refer to the 21st of April;

11     correct?

12        A.   No, it does not.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, is it clearer

15     now what paragraph 44 refers to?

16             JUDGE KWON:  I would like to hear what the witness knows about

17     Drum.

18             Could you tell us?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Drum village is in the immediate

20     environs of Vlasenica municipality.  It's actually a town settlement

21     basically where both Serbs and Muslims lived together.  It was typical of

22     Drum that in early -- in April, a group was registered there manning

23     check-points headed by Ferid Hodzic, the then TO chief who separated the

24     TO and he was appointed in legitimate fashion by the joint

25     Municipal Assembly of Vlasenica.  One could hear shots fired and

Page 35006

 1     provocations from the direction of those barricades aimed at Vlasenica

 2     itself because the distance is quite small.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  What I meant was the Muslims -- death of Muslims you

 4     referred to in your statement, your statement says:

 5             "I heard about the death of the Muslims in Drum village from a

 6     Muslim who lived there ..."

 7             Do you remember that?  Could you expand what happened and what

 8     you heard and who it was?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That event took place in

10     early June, perhaps on the 2nd or 3rd of June.  There was an operation,

11     so to speak, conducted by the TO and parts of the JNA where there were

12     between eight and nine casualties that I found out about.  The next day

13     when a certain Begic arrived, a Muslim from that village whom I had known

14     before because he worked in the forestry company which dealt with cutting

15     wood, he came and wanted to ask that the victims be buried properly.  He

16     said that he trusted the police, and indeed we met his request and made

17     sure that the victims were buried properly.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I will leave it at that.

19             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   I don't think everything was recorded.  Can you tell us, you said

22     that from Drum they were firing towards the settlement of Vlasenica

23     itself.  Can you clarify?  What kind of shooting was that and was that

24     the reason for the intervention?

25        A.   I've mentioned the reasons for the intervention.  There was

Page 35007

 1     information that there were larger quantities of illegal weapons provided

 2     by Mr. Ferid Hodzic.  He also manned the check-point there because beyond

 3     Vlasenica and Drum there is Cikote, which is a Serb village, and people

 4     had difficulty passing through.  They complained about it a lot.

 5     Sometime during early evening hours, one could also hear and see shots

 6     being fired, especially with tracing bullets, towards Vlasenica which is

 7     in the part of town which is called Panorama.  Such provocations occurred

 8     practically daily.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Was there anything of military nature in Panorama,

10     the part that was being fired at?

11        A.   No, it's a civilian part of town, it's a settlement which --

12     where the Panorama Hotel is as well as an additional 11 apartment blocks

13     called by the same name.

14        Q.   [No interpretation]

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Karadzic kindly

16     pause and repeat his question.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Because of overlapping, you were not

18     heard, Mr. Karadzic.  Could you repeat your question.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   The question was whether in the Panorama Hotel there was some

21     kind of command?

22        A.   At the time in the Panorama Hotel there was no command.  The

23     hotel functioned as such, and later on a unit was billeted there.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Let's have a look at the documents you were so kind

25     to provide.

Page 35008

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 0 -- 1D07843.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Where did you get this document, Mr. Djuric?

 4        A.   This document and some others that may appear later is something

 5     that I did not directly participate in, in the events they concern.  I

 6     found them or actually was given them during the hand-over of duty

 7     between myself and my previous colleague Radomir Bjelanovic at the police

 8     station.  They were kept in our archives in a safe.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Let me read it out.  It says:

10             "Subject.

11             "Request to suspend decision on the joining of Vlasenica

12     municipality to become part of the Autonomous Region of Birac."

13             Can we go to page 2, the last page, to see who signed it.  The

14     date is the 17th of January, 1992; correct?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Who signed it and what is this document?

17        A.   The signature is that of the president of the Executive Council,

18     Izet Redzic who at the time was the president of the Executive Board

19     which was lawfully appointed by the joint Vlasenica Municipal Assembly.

20        Q.   What is this decision about?  Can we go back to page 1?  This is

21     not a Serb autonomous region.  It was called the autonomous region;

22     correct?

23        A.   Yes.  Mr. Redzic was objecting to Vlasenica municipality joining

24     the Autonomous Region of Birac.  The goal of that entity was to remain

25     part of Yugoslavia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Page 35009

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what was that -- what was that he

 2     objected against and what was he asking for?

 3        A.   Probably as a representative of the most numerous party in the

 4     Assembly, the SDA, he put in their objection, they were opposed to this

 5     joining.  It wasn't their intention --it wasn't the purpose of it to

 6     create independent regions as such, but to preserve the unity of

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina and Yugoslavia.  It states explicitly that he had been

 8     provided with instructions or advised on a certain strategy that ran

 9     contrary to the preservation of either Bosnia-Herzegovina or Yugoslavia.

10        Q.   Does it say here that out of the 60 deputies, 27 were members of

11     the SDS, 26 of SDA, and then there was another leftist party?  But the

12     ethnic make-up was in total 31 Serb deputies and 29 Muslim deputies,

13     taking into account the leftist parties as well; is that correct?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   The decision was passed by most of the votes of the Serb deputies

16     as well as most of the political parties; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   [No interpretation]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could Mr. Karadzic kindly

20     wait and repeat his question.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   It didn't make its way into the transcript.  What was their

23     reaction?  What did they ask for and why?

24        A.   They asked that this decision be suspended by virtue of this

25     document, and during the session the SDA deputies walked out of the

Page 35010

 1     Assembly, whereas the representatives of the leftist parties of Muslim

 2     ethnicity abstained.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can we go to the next page -- actually, this is what

 4     I wanted.  Do you recall some similar situations to this one from the

 5     joint Assembly?  Was there any voting in the joint Assembly of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina?

 7        A.   Yes.  That situation kept recurring whenever out-voting took

 8     place in the Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be marked for

11     identification?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3098, Your Honours.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have 1D07844

15     next.  Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   What is this document of the 30th of March, 1992?

18        A.   This document is an assertion really that before a military court

19     there were proceedings against Izet Redzic for obstruction and take-over

20     of military documentation by the military organs on the 30th of March,

21     1992.  It was prevented that the documentation be taken over, although

22     the persons who were supposed to seize it were authorised to do so.

23        Q.   I'll read out the last part.

24             "Before a military court in Sarajevo there are proceedings that

25     were instituted against Izet Redzic ..." et cetera, et cetera.

Page 35011

 1             And the last sentence says:

 2             "The aforementioned person is charged with criminal offences

 3     pertaining to Article 205, paras 1 and 3 ..."

 4             I'll repeat it slowly:

 5             "The aforementioned person is charged with offences from

 6     Article 205, paragraphs 1 and 3 of the penal code of the SFRY."

 7             So it was a criminal offence; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have this admitted and

11     MFI'd.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say that -- this is related to the

13     proceedings against Izet Redzic for obstruction?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  And signed by Izet Redzic himself?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, yes, because he was the

17     president of the Executive Board and it was probably that body which

18     asked that the register of documents be forwarded, and by sheer

19     coincidence he was one of the people involved.  He was authorised to sign

20     documents.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll mark it for identification.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3099, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Can we have 1D07845.

24     The next page, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 35012

 1        Q.   Mr. Djuric, kindly introduce this document to us dated the

 2     24th of April, 1992.  Who was writing to who and ordering what?

 3        A.   This is a TO document by the TO commander, whereby they are

 4     making a security assessment in the territory of Vlasenica municipality,

 5     with a particular stress on the possession of illegal weapons.  Based on

 6     their knowledge, they created this assessment and found it necessary to

 7     secure preconditions to have the weapons handed over, seized, or returned

 8     to the competent authorities or, to be more specific, to have the weapons

 9     placed in the public security station in Vlasenica because the public

10     security station was competent to keep registers of weapons.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us something, what village does the

12     first order refer to?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

14             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry to interrupt, no objection, just for the

16     record in case it matters later, I think the date is 27 April, not 24.

17             JUDGE KWON:  And I note it consists of several documents.

18             MR. NICHOLLS: [Microphone not activated]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Please tell us, in addition to Turalici - can we see the next

23     page? - what other locations does this document relate to?

24        A.   Well, the villages in the Vlasenica municipality.  Some are

25     hamlets, some are local communes.  Among others, we see Turalici,

Page 35013

 1     Halihodzici, Zekici, Beros.  Then in the next document, Kujancici,

 2     Gramdzici [phoen].  Then in the next document, Donji Sadici, Dragasi,

 3     Mramor.  In the next document, Hrastovac, Sehmanovici [phoen],

 4     Bajica Brdo [phoen], Dzemat.  In the next we see Gradina.

 5             So these are the places, settled-up areas where the

 6     Territorial Defence and the security organ, when they conducted the

 7     assessment, learned that there was a large quantity of illegal weapons.

 8     Most of these were automatic weapons.  And to that end, an order was

 9     issued to these local units to engage in seizing these weapons, to take

10     activities to seize them, to be very careful and do it in a peaceful way

11     without any casualties and so on and so forth.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In lines 2, 4, 6, 8, it says:

13             "For the purpose of seizing weapons from citizens in a peaceful

14     manner without applying repressive measures except in the cases where

15     extremists opposed the implementation of this task."

16             And then a little lower, under 4, it says:

17             "Fire should only be opened in the event that our forces are

18     attacked by extremists."

19             Now, is this or was this successfully carried out in this manner

20     without having to open fire?

21        A.   For the most part, members of these activities complied with this

22     order, and as far as I know, in all of these activities there were no

23     casualties or any major issues.  However, there was this problem of old

24     weapons being handed in for the most part, whereas the illegally obtained

25     weapons, automatic weapons, were not really handed in because a number of

Page 35014

 1     extremists continued to conceal those weapons.  So that we could see in

 2     the evening at the station that a lot of old weapons were handed in and

 3     very few automatic rifles, and -- but we did have the information from

 4     the field to that effect.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Could you just tell us whether the wording or the

 6     substance of this -- the text is identical or very similar except that it

 7     relates to different villages?

 8        A.   Yes, except that it relates to various villages and different

 9     times.

10        Q.   Thank you.  You were aware on negotiations on the establishment

11     of three municipalities in Vlasenica?

12        A.   Well, yes.  I was apprised of it.  I knew that these activities

13     were under way, that there was talk about dividing the Vlasenica

14     municipality into three municipalities.  There was a decision taken by

15     the Assembly, a joint Assembly, in other words, a decision taken by all

16     deputies that the municipality should be divided into three

17     municipalities - the Serbian municipality of Vlasenica, the Muslim

18     municipality of Vlasenica, and --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter kindly requests that the

20     witness repeat the third name.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You spoke a bit too fast, so

22     interpreters could not hear the name of the third municipality and could

23     you repeat from there.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  So at this

25     multi-ethnic Assembly a decision was taken to divide the municipality of

Page 35015

 1     Vlasenica into three:  The Muslim, the Serb municipality of Vlasenica,

 2     and the Milici municipality.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Thank you.  That suffices for now.  Could you tell the

 5     Trial Chamber -- could you list a number of places that would enter the

 6     Muslim municipality of Vlasenica?

 7        A.   Well, one of the largest places was the Cerska village, and then

 8     all the villages that were mentioned earlier in this document, they were

 9     also envisaged as part of the Muslim municipality of Vlasenica.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you demand that Cerska be disarmed?

11        A.   Yes.  The Territorial Defence made an assessment on the disarming

12     of Cerska; however, that activity was not carried out then because there

13     was a large concentration of personnel there, a large number of

14     able-bodied men and armed men, so that the decision was taken not to

15     carry out that action then but, rather, to try to accomplish this through

16     negotiations.  However, that did not -- that was not successful.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Albeit belated, yes.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Two things, Your Honour, one objection to leading.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  The right way to ask that, in my humble

21     submission, would be something like:  What was the policy or attitude

22     towards Cerska and disarmament?  The second is that although he has shown

23     these documents which the witness brought, this is a topic, division of

24     the municipality into three different entities, that easily could have

25     been included in the statement.  So he's now moving on to a new area that

Page 35016

 1     we really haven't had - unless I'm missing it in the statement - notice

 2     of and using the documents as a vehicle to do that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Do you follow, Mr. Karadzic?  And please don't

 4     forget Mr. Nicholls' request, which the Chamber endorsed, that you lead

 5     the witness as to the provenance of the document, i.e., where, when, and

 6     how this witness got those documents.  Please continue.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  This

 8     witness was a police officer.  He did not take part in the negotiations

 9     but he was aware of them.  However, when we discussed this issue of

10     disarming and the toleration of these things in Cerska, I had to ask him

11     about this.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now, Mr. Djuric, could you please tell us how did you obtain all

14     these documents?  Did you obtain them in the same way, all of them?

15        A.   Well, as I said a moment ago, I actually got these documents

16     during the hand-over of duties, I got them from my predecessor, the chief

17     Radomir Bjelanovic at the Public Security Station Vlasenica.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender the previous

20     document for identification as a single document because it consists of a

21     number of different documents.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Are they -- were they written all by a same person?

23     Because some documents were cut off in the bottom part so we cannot see

24     them all in the scanned version.

25             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

Page 35017

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll mark it for identification.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3100, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now see

 4     1D7846, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you tell us how you obtained this document and what this

 7     document is about?

 8        A.   This is a statement by a citizen, Fikret Muminovic.  He gave this

 9     statement to the police station, or rather, public security station in

10     Milici.  He was -- he provided a statement, a clear statement, that on

11     the 4th of April, 1992, he met Fadil Turkovic, who was the police station

12     commander in Vlasenica, and on this occasion together with others he was

13     issued a Schmeisser automatic rifle and some ammunition.  However, in the

14     following days he handed over that weapon at the public security station

15     in Milici.  He said that he had received it from Fadil Turkovic, the

16     then-commander of the public security station.  So we can see here that

17     even Fadil, as a commander, as an official, a police official, was

18     involved in the illegal arming and distribution of weapons to Muslims.

19        Q.   Thank you.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

21     document, please, for identification.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Objection, Your Honour, on two counts.  I didn't

24     object but that was an extremely leading way to answer -- to ask the

25     question.  He could have simply asked:  Do you know about the men in

Page 35018

 1     these documents?  Was there any criminal activity you know of regarding

 2     them?  Instead of having him read out the statement.  Second, it's a

 3     statement, a verbatim statement, and it should not be admitted through

 4     this witness.  They should call the declarant if they want to put in this

 5     statement and go through the ordinary established method, which has been

 6     discussed here many times, of putting statements in.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, it's nice to hear Mr. Nicholls saying

 8     that -- been saying that since the beginning, but the rule the Chamber

 9     has applied is that contemporaneous statements that are confirmed by the

10     witness can be admitted.  And so the witness has confirmed this

11     statement, and therefore it should be admitted.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second -- no, no, just a second --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may add, this is of the nature

15     of an official note.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry to rise, Mr. President, but there are at least

18     two previous occasions when I came as -- as either in the capacity of the

19     lawyer calling the witness or in anticipation of just such a moment,

20     armed with all the jurisprudence and the case practice in this particular

21     case with regard to these materials, but did not on this occasion because

22     this matter has been ruled on repeatedly by the Trial Chamber as I

23     advised Mr. Robinson just a few moments ago before we started court and

24     for which he did not have a response.  This falls within the

25     lex specialis, as the Court ruled in a precisely analogous situation

Page 35019

 1     before, not too long ago.  And these are -- kind of by pretending not to

 2     acknowledge the repeated decisions of the Chamber on this matter and

 3     others, we find ourselves dealing with unacknowledged motions for

 4     reconsideration repeatedly.

 5             But this should be a simple one.  My best recollection is the

 6     Court dealt with this in the very recent past in just the way I've

 7     described.  There aren't that many bright-line tests in the law or in

 8     this case, but this has certainly been one of them that the Court has

 9     applied.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Is this an official note or a statement?

11     Mr. Djuric, could you read out the title.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The title here is "Statement."  It

13     was provided to authorised officials, in other words, to police officers.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm having trouble recalling the decisions that

16     Mr. Tieger has been alluding to.  I don't think this is lex specialis

17     because it wasn't taken by the Office of the Prosecutor or the Defence

18     for the purposes of this litigation which would require it to be tendered

19     under 92 bis.  So unless he's remembering something that I just have

20     simply forgot -- my understanding of the Chamber's practice is that

21     you've admitted statements of third parties, even un --

22     non-contemporaneous ones, where the witness has confirmed.

23             MR. TIEGER:  Lex specialis -- the lex --

24             JUDGE KWON:  No, just a second.

25             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry.

Page 35020

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, unless you have something urgent, I was

 2     thinking about the same so we'll put this under advisement and come back

 3     to this issue in due course.

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Very well, Mr. President.  I'm happy to provide the

 5     jurisprudence indicating lex specialis are statements taken for the

 6     purposes of criminal proceedings.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I do remember that, but I wasn't clear whether

 8     we admitted this kind of statement, but we'll see.  I'll leave it at

 9     that.

10             Shall we continue.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   In the penultimate paragraph, could you please tell us what it

14     says about the effect this has on others?  What did this witness say

15     about it?  And whether the weapons in Zaklopaca were handed over?

16        A.   Well, the situation in -- is becoming more and more dangerous

17     from day-to-day for civilians --

18        Q.   Could you please slow down.

19        A.   Very well.  Because the situation is becoming more and more

20     dangerous for citizens from day-to-day, I will do the best I can

21     personally that all those who possess illegal weapons in my village and

22     in the wider area to hand them over so that life could return to normal.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Now, were the weapons from Zaklopaca handed in?

24        A.   Well, as far as I know they weren't; however, that was within the

25     competence of another public security station so I can't really claim

Page 35021

 1     this.  But I do know that not in a -- not in any village were the weapons

 2     handed in in their entirety, and so it was in Zaklopaca as well.

 3        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have tendered this but now I

 5     await your decision.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But please bear in mind, Mr. Karadzic, that without

 7     putting some foundational questions, just putting the document and asking

 8     the witness what this document is about, is a typical way of leading

 9     question.  As objected to or indicated by Mr. Nicholls.  So for the

10     remainder of the document, please bear that in mind.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.  But this

12     was a document that the witness brought himself and that is why I asked

13     him why he had brought it, how he had obtained it, and what they

14     represent.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's the question you should put at the end

16     of your question, but that does not offer you the excuse for putting

17     leading questions, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Today you mentioned also - I'm not sure whether it was in the

21     statement or verbally - paramilitaries and crimes of a unit which could

22     not be placed under control.  What was the situation as regards crimes?

23     Who committed them and what was the attitude of the police station to

24     this?

25        A.   From the very beginning and even earlier, there is paramilitary

Page 35022

 1     groups, or let me call them just paramilitaries, appeared.  One of their

 2     goals was to commit crimes, or rather, to loot, steal, destroy property

 3     and the like.  In the public security station within its possibilities at

 4     the time up until mid-May or thereabouts when stronger and more efficient

 5     control of functioning was established could not oppose those groups and

 6     para groups.  Consequently we frequently came into conflict with them,

 7     but later on when the station was established, we settled accounts

 8     fiercely with these groups and paramilitaries.  And by mid-August or

 9     thereabouts we managed to have the situation under control and they were

10     no longer able to commit the acts which they used to commit in the area.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D07841.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Could you tell us what this document is and who drew it up?

14        A.   This document is a response to a memo, a dispatch, requested by

15     the chief of the security service in the Romanija Bircan [phoen] centre

16     on the basis of the need to brief from the Ministry of the Interior.

17     This is our or, rather, my response to the questions contained in this

18     document.  Inter alia, we are responding to the question concerning the

19     existence of these paramilitaries units.  We replied that the

20     paramilitary units have not been registered in combat operations, but

21     that they were noted for their crimes, inter alia, one para group, the

22     so-called Red Berets, is mentioned.  I can add that there was a group

23     called Vukovarci, that means the men from Vukovar, and other similar

24     groups that had no names at all.  Their only goal was to loot and commit

25     other crimes.

Page 35023

 1             As there was a question about co-ordinated action between the

 2     army and the Ministry of the Interior, we replied that we were engaged

 3     jointly with the then newly established military police of the Army of

 4     Republika Srpska in providing expert assistance so that these persons

 5     could be punished.  We provided professional assistance along these

 6     lines, or rather, it was agreed at a meeting held later that as far as

 7     all members of the VRS were concerned, they should be prosecuted by the

 8     army and the civilians should be prosecuted by the public security

 9     station.  So we gave maximum support to the army security organs in order

10     to have these people placed under control.

11        Q.   Thank you.  What happened and how did you resolve the issue of

12     civilians who were present in the combat operations zone?

13        A.   The civilians in the combat operation zone came to Vlasenica and,

14     if possible, they immediately went to places they wanted to go to.  The

15     closest places were Kladanj, Olovo, some of them went in the direction of

16     Tuzla, but all of them via Kladanj.  As for those civilians who could not

17     be transported to the desired place on that particular day were

18     accommodated at one point in a Territorial Defence facility in Susica

19     where they would spend the night.  And on the following morning the

20     activity would be continued, namely, they would go wherever they wanted

21     to.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Serb civilians leave also and where?

23        A.   The departure of civilians from Vlasenica was specific because it

24     began as early as in February or March, so that some of the Muslims went

25     in the direction of Tuzla and then later on returned.  But the intensity

Page 35024

 1     of this movement increased immediately before and after the

 2     21st of April.  Generally the Muslims were going in the direction of

 3     Tuzla, that is to say, what is today the territory of the Federation of

 4     Bosnia-Herzegovina, whereas the Serbs mostly sent their families to

 5     Serbia.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Did you report about this holding centre in Susica to

 7     your superior, that is to say, Mr. Cvijetic?

 8        A.   Yes, whenever possible.  However, the typical thing was that in

 9     terms of the territorial organisation of the Vlasenica municipality

10     before the war it belonged to the Tuzla region, so that in the beginning

11     when the power was down, it was difficult to send communication up until

12     the time when the relays were redirected and until we found other sources

13     of electricity.  So we sent some dispatches by courier and then later on

14     we resumed sending reports electronically once we had the electricity

15     running again.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please look at the

18     next page.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation].

20        Q.   Please read to us paragraph 3.

21             But slowly, please.  Read out the third paragraph "In the

22     area ..."

23        A.   "In the area of this public security station, one centre for

24     taking care of persons from the combat operation zone has been

25     registered.  These persons are treated in accordance with the principles

Page 35025

 1     and rules established by international humanitarian organisations.  The

 2     centre is under the jurisdiction of the Serbian army."

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Which centre are you talking about here?

 4        A.   This was precisely the reception centre in Susica, because it's

 5     undoubted, if you analyse it, that up until the 31st of May the centre

 6     was only of humanitarian character.  All the persons who arrived there,

 7     arrived for the sole reason to be provided with transportation as soon as

 8     possible, because during the day it was not possible to provide so many

 9     vehicles and buses for all of them to be transported on the same day.  So

10     up until that period the character was only humanitarian.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this please be admitted?

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   And you are the author --

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Or can we, rather, move it up a

16     little bit so that we can see who the author of the document is.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, yes.  This is a response

18     to the dispatch from the chief of the security centre who collated the

19     information arriving from all areas later on.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3101, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   This was the response to the questions from the next level, the

25     security services centre, that is to say.  Was it the usual practice, or

Page 35026

 1     rather, how did you inform each other, these questions between you and

 2     the security services centre?

 3        A.   In the beginning, as I said, there were difficulties during the

 4     month of May and partly June as well because on the 24th of April,

 5     Vlasenica was left without electricity which lasted until March 1993.

 6     But as there are small power-plants in the territory of the municipality

 7     then we used them, but we had to prioritise who would be supplied with

 8     electricity, the hospital, for example, and the MUP.  So the

 9     communications were maintained by courier.  The driver would come along,

10     he would pick up the mail, and then take it to them.  And once the

11     communications system was established, then we would use teleprinter

12     dispatch or some of it by fax when that was possible.

13        Q.   Thank you.  What sort of information was requested from the

14     security services centre?

15        A.   The security services centre of Romanija and Birac mostly

16     insisted on establishing the public security station as the institution.

17     It came from the top, from the minister, that the institutions of the

18     Ministry of the Interior are to be established and would work in

19     accordance with the Law on Internal Affairs, that is to say, the requests

20     regarding the security of citizens, the security of property and persons,

21     traffic, the rights of citizens such as issuing ID cards and so on.  So

22     these were the most frequently mentioned information, and the insistence

23     was on lawfulness and on removing from the Ministry of the Interior the

24     persons who had committed crimes or had shown a tendency to commit

25     crimes.  And we were doing this continuously from the very beginning.

Page 35027

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please have 1D07842.

 3     Thank you.  Could we please zoom in so that the witness could see.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you please tell us what was requested from you here and what

 6     your response was?

 7        A.   Information was requested once again about the existence of the

 8     reception centre.  The response was that people were accommodated there

 9     for as short as possible, until the conditions were met for them to go to

10     the areas where they wanted to go.

11        Q.   Who requested this from you?

12        A.   Again it was the centre chief.  Probably he had to respond to a

13     dispatch from the minister or somebody else from the ministry.

14        Q.   All right.  Can you please tell us this.  You responded to a

15     question.  Can you please re-tell us what the first and second paragraphs

16     contain.  The first and the third, I apologise.

17        A.   Yes, yes.  In the first paragraph the substance is that in the

18     territory of the Vlasenica municipality there was a reception centre for

19     the accommodation of persons of both Muslim and Serbian ethnicity who

20     expressed a wish to leave the territory of Vlasenica municipality as soon

21     as possible up until the technical conditions for their departure were

22     met, that is to say, buses provided and so on.

23        Q.   Which reception centre do you have in mind?

24        A.   Also Susica --

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the speakers please slow down for the

Page 35028

 1     purpose of interpretation.  Thank you.

 2             THE WITNESS: [No interpretation]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Shall we start over again from your

 4     question.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you please tell us what is said about the conditions in

 7     Susica in the third paragraph, but please speak slowly.

 8        A.   The reception centre meets all the criteria in terms of

 9     accommodation, food, and all the other provisions prescribed by

10     international institutions and it is also in accordance with the decision

11     of the organs of the Serbian republic.

12        Q.   And was this the line of reporting to the ministry and all the

13     higher instances?

14        A.   Yes.  This was a response to a question from the chief of the

15     centre of public security because that was the subordination.  He often

16     received an order from the minister to draw up a report concerning his

17     area.  The minister would then collate such information for the needs of

18     various institutions of Republika Srpska.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djuric.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

21     this witness and I move to tender this document as well.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3102, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Mr. Djuric, your evidence in this case,

25     evidence in chief, has been admitted in most part in writing, i.e.,

Page 35029

 1     through your statement and now -- in lieu of your oral testimony and now

 2     you'll be asked by Mr. Nicholls in his cross-examination.

 3             Please.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

 6        Q.   Now, Mr. Djuric, we've met before, do you remember?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go into private session for one moment,

10     please?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:

13        Q.   Sir, the --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35030











11  Page 35030 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35031

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:

16        Q.   July 1995, your boss is Dragomir Vasic; correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   At that point you were deputy of the station in Zvornik, the MUP

19     station, correct, that had authority over the region?

20        A.   Yes.  That was the security centre for the Birac region.

21        Q.   Okay.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we quickly bring up 65 ter 24700.  And go to

23     e-court page 12 in the English, Serbian page 8.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Is the security centre the one that is to be

25     abbreviated as CSB?

Page 35032

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  CJB, the public security

 2     station.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  SJB or CJB?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] C stands for centre, J for javna or

 5     public, and B stands for security.  The lower level would be SJB, public

 6     security station.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Was there a CSB in, for example, Sarajevo?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  The public security centres --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Security services centres existed

11     before the war when everything was under the same umbrella; however,

12     during the war, the public security was split from state security.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I'll leave it at that.

14             So in the document we saw, in the previous document, in which you

15     sent the report to the Sarajevo CSB, it was to the CSB, not CJB, at the

16     time?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  And I have to keep reaching ...

20        Q.   Very quickly I just want to go through some call-signs that we

21     talked about in our interview.  The communications centre was -- in

22     Zvornik CJB was Omega; correct ?  You need to answer verbally.  You

23     nodded your head.

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Omega 1 is the chief.  July 1995, that's Dragomir Vasic; right?

Page 35033

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Omega 2, that's you?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Omega 21 is commander of the PJPs.  July 1995, that is

 5     Danilo Zoljic; right?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Very quickly if we can go to English page 8,

 8     Serbian page 6.

 9        Q.   And while it's coming up, you'll probably remember Tomo Kovac is

10     Tango 2, right?  That's his sign?  Deputy minister.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I would tender this document, either

14     just these pages or -- I think it's a useful document.  It's the Zvornik

15     CJB call-signs for the whole centre.  Whichever the Chamber feels is

16     appropriate.  It's about 57 pages in English, but it's just all the

17     call-signs of the different people and units.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson -- excuse me, Mr. President, we

19     would like to just admit those pages that are referred to so far.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll do so.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's fine.  Perhaps the cover page, the first

22     page.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6188.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:

Page 35034

 1        Q.   All right.  I'm going to ask you about a different topic now.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  If I could have P04937.

 3        Q.   I'm going to ask you about the MUP's knowledge of the operation

 4     to take Srebrenica and the movement of the Muslim column, and we

 5     discussed this in our interview.

 6             Now P4937, when it comes up, is dated 12 July 1995.  It's a

 7     report up the MUP chain to the ministry from the chief, Dragomir Vasic,

 8     showing that on the 12th of July, the MUP knew about Muslim soldiers

 9     trying to cross at Udrc, the need to block these Muslim soldiers from the

10     column at Crni Vrh, who was leading them, that there's about 8.000 of

11     them, about 1500 of them armed, and that they're in the

12     Konjevic Polje-Sandici sector, and that this information was received

13     from four captured Muslims.

14             So basically, just can you confirm, this is a type of realtime

15     relevant information that the MUP centre in Zvornik was receiving?

16        A.   Yes, this is a dispatch or a letter to the staff of police forces

17     and the minister's cabinet.  The situation was such that we had to report

18     from one moment to the next so that they would be informed of what was

19     going on.  As for these assessments, sometimes they may have been

20     approximate, other times correct.  It all depended on what access to

21     reliable information we had at any point of time.

22        Q.   Sure.  But my point is that it was important to Zvornik, and we

23     all know about that later, I don't want to get into it now, but to be

24     aware of the movement of the column of Muslim men from Srebrenica because

25     there were soldiers in it and it could have been a threat to Zvornik;

Page 35035

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 01932 , please.

 5        Q.   While that's coming up, this is another dispatch from the chief

 6     of the centre, Dragomir Vasic, the next day, 13 July.  It states in the

 7     beginning:

 8             "In the early morning hours of 13 July 1995 (at about

 9     0400 hours), the first PJP ... had contact with a large enemy group in

10     the Sandici and Konjevic Polje areas ..."  There was a "fierce battle and

11     the enemy suffered heavy losses.  However," unfortunately for the

12     Serbian -- Bosnian Serbian MUP, "Zeljko Ninkovic was killed ... and

13     Nenad Andric, Zarko Zaric and Nenad Filipovic were wounded ..."

14             You remember that incident, I suppose?

15        A.   I recall this dispatch.  Given the fact that I wasn't in that

16     part which was closer to Bratunac, I focused most of my force and energy

17     to protect Zvornik itself.  Chief Vasic drafted this dispatch based on

18     the relevant information he had.  I'm sure of it.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  May I tender that, Your Honours?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6189, Your Honours.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:

23        Q.   And just -- I can make this very quick so you may not have to

24     give lengthy answers in the future about what you're doing.  My

25     understanding is that, as we can -- during this period, 11th to, say,

Page 35036

 1     16 July, when we say there are mass executions of Muslim soldiers being

 2     committed by the MUP and the VRS, you're actually in the communications

 3     centre of the Zvornik Brigade most of the time.  You're not out in the

 4     field; right?

 5        A.   No, I wasn't in the communications centre of the Zvornik Brigade.

 6     I was in the public security centre in my position as deputy, given the

 7     fact that Chief Vasic was away.  Since he spent the -- several days in

 8     Bratunac.  I was in MUP, in the seat of the public security centre.

 9        Q.   You're right.  I apologise.  That was a bad misstatement by me.

10     I'm normally dealing with VRS.  That's what I meant to say, you were in

11     the MUP centre, not in the field; correct?  And you nodded your head so I

12     think you agreed.

13        A.   Yes.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  Could I have 65 ter 24607, please.  And

15     start with just the first page.

16        Q.   What I'm going to show you, sir, is a notebook or diary which I

17     went through with you in Belgrade and which you confirmed at page 5 of

18     your interview that it was your notebook and your handwriting.  Do you

19     remember this notebook?

20        A.   Perhaps.  In any case, I see it is my handwriting.

21        Q.   Yeah.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  And we have the original here if anybody needs to

23     look at it.

24             Could we go to page 9, please, of both versions.

25             Now, Your Honours, just to be clear, what's in e-court is an

Page 35037

 1     excerpt.  It's quite a large notebook.  We don't have the whole thing in

 2     e-court and the whole thing isn't translated.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Sir, I don't have really much time at all.  I just want to

 4     go quickly, same exercise we did when I met you in Belgrade, talking

 5     about what these pages of your notebook show.  This one we can see here,

 6     and we talked about it in your interview, was from the 11 July, you've

 7     got the date there, at a time when Predrag Blagojevic, body-guard for

 8     President Karadzic, apparently refuelled in Zvornik; correct?

 9        A.   Probably, since I noted it down, although I can't recall it

10     off-the-cuff.  Predrag Blagojevic, although I can't recall who the person

11     was, but I can suppose he is as you say.  I noted down that we issued him

12     with 40 litres of diesel fuel.

13        Q.   Okay.

14             JUDGE KWON:  While you are asking, could I see the original

15     version?

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:

19        Q.   All right.  And below that we see Karisik came by and expressed

20     an interest.  And just quickly in our interview you told us that must

21     have been Milenko Karisik; correct?

22        A.   Most likely, yes.

23        Q.   Okay.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we skip to page 11 now, moving quite

25     quickly.

Page 35038

 1        Q.   Now here, somewhat in line with the dispatches from Dragomir

 2     Vasic we saw on the 12th of July, the first one, we discussed in our

 3     interview how this was the 12th of July and where we see there

 4     Ravni Buljim, elevation 651, and then below it 651 circled, Bokcin Potok.

 5     Again, that was just information received about the movement of the

 6     column of Muslim men from Srebrenica; correct?

 7        A.   Approximately, yes.

 8        Q.   And at the bottom of the page, Sandici, Lolici, Kamenica, MUP,

 9     just locations of -- it's common knowledge now where the MUP was going to

10     have to block the column on the road; correct?

11        A.   MUP forces were deployed, and that was my understanding at the

12     time, to secure the road for the transport of civilians which were to

13     travel along that route.

14        Q.   Okay.  On the 12th of July, the MUP, PJPs, and Borovcanin's

15     special units were also blocking and capturing Muslim troops.  I don't

16     want to go through the documents again, but the one from 12 July we saw

17     with Dragomir Vasic talked about the difficulties of fighting the Muslim

18     soldiers and how they just captured four Muslim prisoners; correct?

19        A.   As I said, I can't be specific since I wasn't in that area.  But

20     I do believe that there were some problems as part of that communication.

21     And if Chief Vasic reported it, I suppose it is correct or approximately

22     correct to the best of his knowledge at the time.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go to page 14 -- excuse me, 13 of the

24     English, same in the Serbian.

25        Q.   All right, yeah, very quickly.  The bottom of the page here it

Page 35039

 1     says:

 2             "1 dead.

 3             "Nenad Andric.

 4             "Zarko Zaric.

 5             "Nenad Filipovic wounded."

 6             Those were the same people we saw in Vasic dispatch,

 7     65 ter 01932, just a few minutes ago, that that took place early on the

 8     morning of the 13th; right?

 9        A.   That's right.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  Let's turn the page, page 14.

11        Q.   So the 14th of July now -- 13th of July, excuse me, 1995.  And if

12     you recall in our interview, that's page 28 of our interview, that the

13     number there and the Deronjic was for Miroslav Deronjic in Bratunac, but

14     you couldn't remember why his name was written there and what that

15     contact was about; correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And you don't remember today, do you?

18        A.   No.  Perhaps I can add something, Your Honours.  This note

19     contains information as events developed as a reminder, and frequently I

20     simply noted things down without any further clarification.  At that

21     point in time I may have been able to recall it, but it's much more

22     difficult from this position here today.  It's not a diary.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

25             Could we now go to page 16, English and B/C/S.

Page 35040

 1        Q.   Only one part I want to show you there is in the middle.  It says

 2     Ljubisa for Krstic.  We showed you the intercept I believe in our

 3     interview of Krstic, General Krstic and Ljubisa Borovcanin speaking on

 4     that day.  So here, as you say, it's not a diary, but you've made a note

 5     that Ljubisa was looking for Krstic; correct?  Borovcanin was looking for

 6     General Krstic?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go to page 18.  Very quickly there it's

10     just a meeting held on 13 July at 1800 hours.  Go to the next page,

11     page 19 for the record in both languages.

12        Q.   So here we are in the evening of 13 July, and you've made

13     notifications same day we saw Nenad -- Miroslav Deronjic's name in here

14     of secure the buses, call regarding the buses' security, problem with

15     buses and security, problem of Milici, security reinforced as an

16     emergency.

17             And in the interview we put it to you that that was about the

18     buses filled with Muslim men, prisoners, who'd been captured and

19     separated -- were separated at Potocari, who were being held in Bratunac,

20     and we'll talk about the convoy in a minute.  Was that what those

21     notifications were about, security for the prisoners on those buses?

22        A.   No.  I think the problem is the buses and securing the buses.  It

23     was asked that a certain number of buses be sent to Bratunac.  One of the

24     ways to communicate that was to use our communications centre.

25        Q.   Yeah, okay, but on the 13th of July the entire -- all the women

Page 35041

 1     and children are gone from Srebrenica.  This is about buses in Bratunac;

 2     right?

 3        A.   I suppose so.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, I'm through with that for a moment,

 5     although we'll probably come back to it if I have time.  I'll ask you

 6     about something else that you discussed in our interview, that was at

 7     page 41, 65 ter is 24676.  I'm not going to bring it up.  But I asked you

 8     and you confirmed that you had no advance knowledge that on the

 9     14th of July a column of trucks and buses from Bratunac carrying

10     prisoners was going to arrive in Zvornik?

11        A.   No, I had no such knowledge whatsoever, really.

12        Q.   Right.  Okay.  However - and we'll go through it in a

13     minute - you also made it very clear that you were at the Hotel Vidikovac

14     in Divic, on the little bend that sticks out, near Zvornik, when that

15     convoy of buses and trucks filled with Muslim prisoners arrived; correct?

16        A.   Correct.  I was in the Vidikovac Hotel and I could see the convoy

17     from the terrace.  It was around noon or a bit later.

18        Q.   Yeah.  And it was a surprise to you when you saw this huge convoy

19     arrive; that's what you said?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   So let me just get it clear.  The chief of the centre, which you

22     admitted earlier, Vasic, is in Bratunac on the 12th, 13th, and 14th,

23     where the convoy leaves from.  The deputy, the second from the centre, is

24     in Zvornik, in communication and happens to be at the Vidikovac Hotel

25     when the column arrives.  So is your testimony that you in the MUP, you

Page 35042

 1     and Vasic, were able to track the movement of the Muslim columns through

 2     the wood, knowing what elevation they were at, knowing when they were in

 3     Sandici, knowing when they were in Lolici, knowing when they were in

 4     Kamenica, but you didn't know when your chief was in Bratunac that the

 5     Muslims were coming on the 13th to Zvornik?  You lost track of all those

 6     prisoners?

 7        A.   What I said was indeed so.  We did not have knowledge of the

 8     column moving to Zvornik.  I cannot assert anything now, but I suppose

 9     that Chief Vasic was there, taking part in it, or that he may have had

10     better knowledge of the movements of the convoy.  If he had known that it

11     was moving towards Zvornik, he would have probably informed me.  I

12     personally was unaware of it and I can't say anything positively about

13     Chief Vasic.  If he had known, he would definitely have informed me and

14     provided suggestions.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let me correct the transcript.  Unfortunately, I said 13th

16     when it arrived.  It's the 14th as we all know.  That's not in dispute.

17             I don't want to go into it at length but in an interview, which

18     is 65 ter 22146, Tomo Kovac told us that when he saw you very late on the

19     night of the 13th - this is at e-court pages 103 and 104 - that you told

20     him that because there was not enough room in Bratunac, that the

21     prisoners are to be transferred to Zvornik barracks, to Zvornik Brigade

22     barracks.  That's what Tomo Kovac said he learned from you before they

23     arrived.  Is that right or not right?

24        A.   It is true that I was in contact with Mr. Tomo, the minister or

25     deputy, whatever he was at the time, and I told him that the column had

Page 35043

 1     reached Zvornik.  I explained to him that we didn't know of their

 2     intentions as to which direction to take.  We told him that it stopped

 3     but it was most likely to go on to the registered reception centre at

 4     Batkovic near Bijeljina or that the column would turn to Kalesija and

 5     Tuzla towards the demarcation line.  However, events developed the way

 6     they did --

 7        Q.   Let me stop you --

 8        A.   What is the basic thing in all that --

 9        Q.   Let me stop you.  You may have missed the point of my question.

10     He said that before - and to use our terminology, I'm not talking about

11     the column of Muslim prisoners - the convoy of Muslim men in trucks and

12     buses from Bratunac, he said that you told him before it arrived on the

13     night of the 13th that the prisoners are to be transferred to Zvornik.

14     Now, is that right what he said, yes or no?

15        A.   No, no.

16        Q.   All right --

17        A.   Only later, after arrival I informed Minister Kovac of the

18     problem there.  He provided certain suggestions.  We thought they would

19     go to Batkovic, as I've said, or to the demarcation line.  And perhaps an

20     hour or two later, after the conversation, he told me, "Keep the police

21     out of it.  There's the military police.  You should only secure the road

22     to allow for the traffic to go through."

23        Q.   Yeah, and that leads nicely to my next question which is why it's

24     a bit surprising that you didn't know about this huge convoy of thousands

25     of Muslim prisoners coming to your town from Bratunac, very close by, the

Page 35044

 1     day after you'd been in contact with Miroslav Deronjic, but there

 2     were - and there's lots of evidence in this case - MUP on those buses

 3     providing security.

 4             Milorad Bircakovic at P00360 testified unambiguously that on each

 5     bus there were four or five civilian police.  He testified that he got on

 6     a bus -- I should say Milorad Bircakovic worked for Drago Nikolic - his

 7     security organ at the Zvornik Brigade - as his driver.  He was ordered to

 8     get on a bus.  That bus with civilian police on it went directly to

 9     Orahovac.

10             KDZ407 was at Orahovac, completely separate testimony - that's

11     P00379 - he's talked about receiving the prisoners who were brought in

12     the school at Orahovac and how civilian police were escorting these

13     prisoners in and helped them put the prisoners into the gym and those

14     prisoners were then all killed.

15             So how is it that the MUP, which is all your centre, come from

16     Bratunac to Zvornik on the buses and then stay on the buses when they go

17     to detention sites very near execution sites, and you don't know anything

18     about it?  That's a nice open-ended question for you.

19        A.   I've already partially answered that question.  When the column

20     reached Zvornik it was stopped for a while.  We didn't know what it was

21     all about and what was going on.  I asked for some answers from the

22     minister.  I informed him and I tried contacting the then-corps command

23     Zivanovic, but communication was difficult to establish.  After the

24     second call to Minister Kovac, he suggested the following, "It is up to

25     you to secure the road and I don't want to see any police meddling,"

Page 35045

 1     which is what the police did.  It secured that the convoy could keep

 2     going and, indeed, it did towards Zvornik.  At that point in time I

 3     thought it was to go to Batkovic and Bijeljina or, perhaps, to turn to

 4     Karakaj and Kalesija, but it didn't take place.  The only information I

 5     received from the police, from a police patrol, was that they turned

 6     somewhere in Pilica and somewhere else, but that they weren't allowed to

 7     go there.  It was confirmed a number of times before and that's the truth

 8     of it.

 9        Q.   Uh-huh.  Okay.  The execution site in Kozluk, on the 15th of

10     July, the Trial Chamber have been there and seen how it's just

11     straight -- a very short distance down a dirt road from the police

12     station in Kozluk.  And KDZ496, P00387 - I apologise for going so fast -

13     testified at e-court pages 7 and 35 that there were men there in blue

14     uniforms, police uniforms, as the executions took place.

15             So again, I'm going to ask you -- well, first of all, when we met

16     in Belgrade you agreed with me that those men on those buses and trucks

17     did not go to Batkovic.  They didn't go to Kladanj.  They were virtually

18     all executed.  That's true, isn't it?  You need to speak your answer.

19        A.   If you allow me, I'd like to clarify something.  The preceding

20     days, perhaps even that day, the convoy was mostly moving via Vlasenica

21     to Kladanj.  We know that this convoy went in the direction of Zvornik;

22     right?

23        Q.   Answer my question, please.  Do you agree with me that all those

24     men on the convoy that you met at the Vidikovac Hotel didn't go to

25     Batkovic, didn't go to Kladanj, they were murdered?

Page 35046

 1        A.   I only saw that later on, after about an hour or two, that the

 2     column stopped there, that they resumed, and then it -- I was informed

 3     that they were getting off the road, that they weren't -- that they were

 4     going to Kalesija, but I only had instructions that the police should

 5     just ensure and follow the routes along which this column was moving.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 4 - I would like to

 7     intervene in the transcript - the witness said:  Only this one column --

 8     convoy went to Zvornik.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:

10        Q.   Third time.  Do you agree with me that all those men on the

11     convoy, except for the odd survivor that escaped, that you met at the

12     Hotel Vidikovac did not go to Batkovic camp; they were all murdered?  Or

13     do you think there's -- that's what you agreed with me in your interview.

14     Are you now saying something different?

15        A.   Well, I've said the same thing.  It was our opinion that they

16     would go to Batkovici; however, they didn't.  But the knowledge about

17     them moving and going in another direction and their execution, that was

18     something that I only learned later on.

19        Q.   Okay.  When did you learn that they had been executed, all these

20     men?

21        A.   Well, perhaps on the following day or the following days.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm not sure if we're at break time, Your Honour.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break.  I think it's evident we cannot

24     finish the next witness's evidence today.  Is there any specific reason

25     that we have to conclude his evidence today, Mr. Robinson, i.e., whether

Page 35047

 1     we cannot continue his evidence on Monday?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We can continue his evidence

 3     on Monday.  The problem -- he's been here since last Thursday because his

 4     testimony was delayed at the request of the Prosecution, so he's been

 5     here for a very long time, but as I understand it he can stay and, if

 6     that's necessary, we can do it.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a regular break for 45 minutes and see

 8     how it evolves.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would just like to thank the Defence for

10     accommodating us on that request regarding the next witness's testimony.

11             JUDGE KWON:  We'll break for 45 minutes and resume at 1.20.

12                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.35 p.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 1.34 p.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies for the delay.  The Chamber had some

15     discussions.

16             Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.

18             Could I have 24607 up again, please, page 19 in both languages.

19             All right.  This is just to orient us.  This is a page we were

20     looking at before from 13 July.

21             Could we now go to the next page, 20 in each, please.  All right.

22        Q.   Now, sir, here in your handwriting we have on the top left

23     "raid."  Below that "4th Battalion."  "741-016," "Tomo," and then an S or

24     an 8 written under his name.  Phone number 592-029 and "Popovic."

25             Now, very quickly, you recall when we met that you told us this

Page 35048

 1     was, the Tomo and the phone number, that was Tomo Savic in Milici.

 2        A.   I suppose so.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Now, our position is this is 14 July 1995, because we've

 4     just moved on from pages which were 13 July, 14 July 1995 is the day of

 5     the executions of over a thousand men in Orahovac.  Vujadin Popovic,

 6     Drina Corps security, is involved in those executions at Orahovac.  The

 7     number 592-029 is the phone number of a little house right across the

 8     street from the Grbavci school which was used by the VRS.  That the

 9     4th Battalion of the Zvornik Brigade carried out executions in Orahovac

10     that day and 4th -- and Orahovac is the area of the 4th Battalion.

11             Now, when we spoke in Belgrade - and that's on page 45 to 46 of

12     your interview - you told us that this could have been Vujadin Popovic

13     but you didn't remember.  You didn't know why you'd written down

14     4th Battalion and you didn't know why you'd written down that phone

15     number.

16             Do you stand by that or do you now remember why you have these

17     entries in your book?

18        A.   I really don't remember and I couldn't comment on that.  As I

19     said, this is a note where something is recorded so that later one

20     could -- but really, from this point in time, I do not remember what were

21     the reasons for me to record this here.

22        Q.   Okay.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I would tender this notebook.  The

24     portion we have in e-court is a total of 37 pages in English and Serbian

25     original, either the entire thing because I think it's useful or, at a

Page 35049

 1     minimum, pages 9 to 21 which are the pages that I've gone -- or page 20,

 2     excuse me, are the pages I've gone over with the witness.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Unless indicated by -- otherwise indicated by the

 4     Defence, I prefer to admit pages 9 to 21.

 5             Mr. Robinson.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, that's okay.  We're going to

 7     probably talk about an entry on another page, but we could add it at that

 8     point.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             What's the time-frame of those pages, Mr. Nicholls, pages 9 to

11     21?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  11 to 14 July 1995.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

14             We'll admit those pages and add, if necessary, later on.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  And I don't know if you want to

16     just -- strike that.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We give the number for this.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6190, Your Honours.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:

20        Q.   All right, sir.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 35025, please.

22             And while it's coming up I will say this is a tactical

23     intercept -- sorry, pages -- page 4 of the English and 12 of the Serbian.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We'll not broadcast.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  I think we can broadcast this, Your Honour.

Page 35050

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Could you check?  I was told that it is under seal.

 2                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  I --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload it so that I can see it.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  This might be a situation, Your Honour, where if

 6     we give it a different number that it can be broadcast without problems.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  That on the left is not the right document.

 9     Page 12 of the B/C/S, please.  Okay.  Thank you.

10        Q.   Now, sir, this is an intercept and on the first page of the

11     English -- sorry, page 4 of the English, we're only on page 1.  That's

12     right.  Page 4 of the English we can see that this is talking about

13     Friday, 14 July 1995.  If we could skip to the next page of the English

14     we could stay on the same page of the Serbian.

15             Now, the first part I want to ask you about, sir, in this

16     intercept is we've already established that you were Omega 2, that was

17     your call-sign in July 1995.  If you look down just at the sentence that

18     begins "1930" about a quarter of the way down the page probably -- oh,

19     no, sorry, sorry, I'm looking at the English.  It's at the bottom of the

20     page of yours, bottom quarter.  It says:

21             "1930 they organised and linked ambushes (Omega 02, Vuk)."

22             Now, that's you talking to somebody named Vuk, who I don't know

23     who that is, just about the movement of the armed Muslim soldiers, the

24     column; right?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 35051

 1        Q.   Thank you.  If we look up a bit it says:

 2             "Omega 21 is in Pilica."

 3             That means Danilo Zoljic is in Pilica; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And then if we look down we see:

 6             "Celik requested from Omega," which we saw was the Zvornik MUP

 7     communications centre, "to send security for Orahovac."

 8             Now, we already went through how buses that arrived from Bratunac

 9     on the 14th went to Orahovac, how there were MUP soldiers -- MUP

10     policemen who went on those buses to Orahovac.  We saw the entry in your

11     notebook for 14 of July which had the phone number from Orahovac and

12     Popovic.  And here we see that somebody requested the MUP to send

13     security for Orahovac.

14             Does that refresh your memory about why you made these entries in

15     your notebook that day?

16        A.   The handwriting here is not mine, so this is not my notebook.  I

17     cannot remember who could have been using my notepad.

18        Q.   This is not your notebook, sir.  This is an intercept from the

19     Muslim side of intercepted conversations on the tactical lower ground

20     level.  But if it doesn't help you remember, it doesn't help you

21     remember, but this is not your notebook.  Don't worry.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Could you ask the witness again whether he had such

23     a conversation at 1930.

24             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah.

25        Q.   Just again, you confirmed that at 1930 you had a conversation

Page 35052

 1     just about the armed Muslim soldiers who were threatening Zvornik, that

 2     that would be you.

 3        A.   Yes, Your Honours, I -- when preparing for this part of my

 4     testimony in the Defence case I focused on 1992 in this case, so I didn't

 5     really study these transcripts a lot, and it often happens, as now, that

 6     I don't remember all the details.  And I sincerely apologise, I will do

 7     my best to provide as accurate information as possible, but I cannot

 8     remember all the details.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender that document, Your Honour?

11             JUDGE KWON:  This page?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  This page, yeah.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  It's already admitted according to my --

14             JUDGE KWON:  No.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  It was MFI'd --

16             JUDGE KWON:  No, no -- I think --

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Or not admitted actually --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it was not admitted at the time.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  And I take it it may be for the same reason it

20     shouldn't be admitted now if I'm thinking that this was not something

21     that was testified to by one of the intercept operators because that --

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  No --

23             MR. ROBINSON:  -- I don't know whether or not this particular

24     intercept has been authenticated.

25             JUDGE KWON:  But this witness confirmed what he said about it.

Page 35053

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  That one line.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Omega --

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  I think that's enough, Your Honours.  The reason

 5     it was not admitted previously in our bar table is that it was

 6     unfortunately, through our error, one of the ones where we didn't

 7     reference transcript pages and the 94 -- the prior admissions, it was

 8     previously admitted in Popovic, Tolimir, and I can't remember, either

 9     Krstic or Blagojevic.  And we cited those prior admissions but we didn't

10     cite them enough and Your Honours denied it on that basis.  But as you

11     said, it has now been authenticated.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I think we -- it's fair enough to admit at least

13     from "Omega 21" till "Orahovac."

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  That's all you put to the witness .

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, the only other thing is the date is on the

17     top which is important.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Together with the date.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we give the number now.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6191, Your Honours.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:

23        Q.   Okay.  1992, you have -- your statement concerns that.  You just

24     said that's what you prepared for, and I want to talk to you about

25     mosques being blown up in Vlasenica when you were there in August 1992 in

Page 35054

 1     the MUP.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we go into private session, please.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35055

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

24        Q.   And to your knowledge, nobody was ever prosecuted and punished

25     for this crime, blowing up the mosque; right?

Page 35056

 1        A.   We instructed our service on the following day to conduct the

 2     on-site investigation; however, we submitted the report to the

 3     prosecutor's office.  I don't know what happened with that later because

 4     those institutions were still not fully operational.  And as none of us

 5     later asked for any additions nor was our report dismissed by any

 6     instance, and simultaneously the army was also allowed to conduct an

 7     investigation, this was what we carried out.  We submitted our report

 8     about the on-site investigation to the prosecutor's office and that was

 9     all.

10        Q.   Yeah, and so the answer then would be yes:  To your knowledge,

11     nobody was ever prosecuted and punished for this crime to your knowledge?

12        A.   No one has been prosecuted to this day; however, as I say, we

13     submitted the report and the same measures, that is to say, the

14     investigation could have been conducted by the crime police of the Army

15     of Republika Srpska because there was an agreement that in case of

16     criminal offences committed by members of the army should be prosecuted

17     by the military organs.  In such a case, if that happened, we would then

18     contribute by forwarding the information we had to the relevant military

19     organ.

20        Q.   Okay.  Again, last time.  I'm not asking you about the process,

21     just to your knowledge, you don't know that anybody was ever actually

22     punished for this crime, do you?  That's a yes or no.

23        A.   As far as I knew, I do not have information that anyone was

24     prosecuted.

25        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement at paragraph 15 you talk about both

Page 35057

 1     sides, meaning Muslims and Serbs, arming and you talked about Serbs

 2     acquiring most of their weapons legally by being mobilised into the TO.

 3     Let's see if we can make this short.

 4             The SDS illegally armed Serb civilians, correct, in Vlasenica?

 5        A.   Perhaps it happened to a smaller extent because all members of

 6     armed forces according to the former law were assigned to specific posts

 7     and it was their duty to do that.  Whoever responded to the lawful

 8     mobilisation could be issued by a soldier's equipment, including weapons.

 9     And I think that the SDS did not have any special need to be involved in

10     illegal procurement of weapons because it was mostly the Serbs who

11     responded to call-ups for mobilisation, that is to say, they reported

12     themselves to the JNA and the TO.  And obviously the Muslims refused this

13     which can be found in a series of documents --

14        Q.   Okay --

15        A.   -- that they refused to respond to the mobilisation, but they did

16     obtain illegal weapons.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Let's go into private session, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35058











11  Page 35058 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35059

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:

 9        Q.   While it's coming up, you'll remember this document.  It's your

10     document, 3rd of August, 1992, to Romanija Birac CSB Sarajevo.  And it

11     discusses crimes dealt with by your police station.  And it states:

12             "In the period from 1st of April, 1992, to 30th of July, 1992" --

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down for the interpreters.  Thank

14     you.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:

16        Q.   "-- the Vlasenica public security station dealt with the

17     following activities with regard to crime prevention," illegal possession

18     of weapons, 108 cases; right?

19        A.   Not boxes or cases, but cases in the sense of incidents.

20        Q.   Correct.  That's what I meant, 108 incidents, yeah.  Okay.

21             Now, P3216 is the crime register for your police station for

22     1992.  I don't want to spend the time to bring it up, but do you recall

23     that you previously had a chance to go through this crime register and

24     you confirmed that through the end of July, the SJB processed 108 illegal

25     weapons cases and there was not a single one of them where the person

Page 35060

 1     prosecuted was of Serb ethnicity, that it was only Muslims who were

 2     prosecuted for illegal possession of weapons; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And going through that record, you also didn't find a

 5     single case of a crime committed by one of your police officers against a

 6     Muslim or Croat and it would have been there if it had been reported;

 7     right?

 8        A.   The report says:  Murder, five cases.  I think these were, though

 9     I can't remember exactly now, acts done against life and limb of certain

10     persons.  Now I don't know, probably some of the cases that were under

11     procedure were also those where the perpetrators were Bosniaks by

12     ethnicity.

13        Q.   Correct.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go into private session very briefly?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16                           [Private session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35061

 1   (redacted)

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 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10                           [Open session]

11             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:

13        Q.   Now, in paragraphs 23 to 26 of your statement you discuss the

14     decision of 19 April 1992 of the Crisis Staff to disarm the police.  And

15     you say at paragraph 23 --

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Let's bring that up.  It's P06138.

17        Q.   Go ahead and look at your statement if you want to.  You say in

18     paragraph 23:

19             "The Crisis Staff adopted this decision because the citizens no

20     longer trusted the joint police force since it could not guarantee

21     safety."

22             At paragraph 24 you said:

23             "After the decision to disarm the police was adopted, all SJB

24     employees who had long-barrelled weapons were told ..." I'll skip a bit

25     "... to bring the weapons to the station."

Page 35062

 1             And you also claim in paragraph 26:

 2             "It is not true that this was an attempt to get rid of the

 3     Muslims in the police and change the ethnic make-up of the police."

 4             Do you stand by that, paragraph 26, "this was not an attempt to

 5     change the ethnic make-up of the police"?

 6        A.   Yes, I stand by it.  If I may, I'd like to clarify shortly.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Given that a decision had been made

 9     on the division of the municipality into the Muslim municipality of

10     Vlasenica, the Serb municipality of Vlasenica, and Milici municipality,

11     the policemen from the Milici municipal part went to Milici itself.  And

12     by protocol which was decided on at the Assembly concerning the division

13     of the municipality also contained the following, it was stated that all

14     of the three municipalities should begin with establishing their own

15     institutions.  In that case, Milici municipality started establishing

16     their own institutions and the Serb municipality did the same later on

17     when it was proclaimed.  However, the Muslim side did not begin

18     establishing institutions of their own for reasons that were known to

19     them.  It was a strategy of theirs because I could find in certain

20     documents that Mr. Redzic stated he had signed it because he had received

21     instructions from the SDA and Alija Izetbegovic to sign and to obstruct

22     the process as long as possible in order to have as many people move out

23     as possible.  So the decision was to establish a police station which

24     could be operational.  Basically, at that point in time it did not exist.

25     It did exist, but it was divided in terms of personnel.  Some went to

Page 35063

 1     Milici, some Muslims had left even before the 21st of April because they

 2     left Vlasenica, and a very small number remained in the station.  The

 3     reason for this decision so was to set up a new principle in order to

 4     establish a functioning police station.

 5        Q.   Now.  --

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go into private session briefly?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35064











11  Page 35064 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35065

 1   (redacted)

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 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21                           [Open session]

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm nearly done, Your Honours.  I think I'm right

23     at my time about.  I'm going to have to speed up a bit.

24        Q.   The special purpose unit you discuss in your statement at

25     paragraphs 31 to 38 was under the command of Miroslav Kraljevic and

Page 35066

 1     you've previously said that it comprised 20 to 25 men.  Do you remember

 2     that?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Okay.  And Elvis Djuric was the deputy; right?  It's in your

 5     statement at paragraph 33?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Let's see if we can make this quick.  That special unit

 8     was paid by the MUP and you actually signed the payrolls; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Now, you also talk about in your statement how from day one there

11     were complaints with this unit.  Paragraph 34 you talk about how this

12     unit of 20 to 25 men mistreated Muslims.  You also talked about how this

13     unit made Muslims "disappear" without a trace.  Paragraph 35 of your

14     statement:

15             "Every day I informed the Crisis Staff and the municipal

16     leadership about the problems with this unit, but we had no solution.

17     Armed fighting between the Serbs and the Muslims started on the ground,

18     people were getting killed, and so we had no time to control this unit.

19     Reports started coming in to the effect that on their own initiative they

20     had started to take away Muslims from their homes and that these people

21     then disappeared without a trace."

22             Now this --

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Can we go in private session, Your Honours?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25                           [Private session]

Page 35067











11  Page 35067 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35068

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4                           [Open session]

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:

 6        Q.   That's paragraph 38 of your statement what we were just talking

 7     about where you say:

 8             Within a very short period you received an order, 27 July 1992.

 9     Sorry, based on an order of 27 July 1992, and you said:

10             "As soon as we received this order, we disbanded the unit," the

11     special unit run by Kraljevic.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Now I'd like to look attendant 65 ter 18358.

13        Q.   This was not included in your statement although it relates to

14     the documents about disbanding the unit and paramilitaries in your

15     statement.  Take a look at it.  First of all, that's your signature on

16     the bottom; right?  Correct?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   This is a 10th of August, 1992, RE, topic, disbanding of the

19     special unit formed during the war in the SJB.  And you reference the

20     28 July and 27 July decisions to disband paramilitaries.  And you state

21     in your report up the chain:

22             "Soon after the war started in the area of Vlasenica municipality

23     (21 April 1992), a special purpose platoon was formed in the Vlasenica

24     SJB in order to realise goals, and on the basis of agreement and

25     suggestions of the Birac SAO government ..."

Page 35069

 1             And then you say in the next paragraph:

 2             "In order to carry out the order by the Minister of Interior of

 3     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina ... 27 July ... this unit

 4     has been transformed in such a way that it became part of a reserve

 5     contingent, part was transferred into the military police of the main

 6     command of Crna Rijeka ..." which means military police of the

 7     Main Staff; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   "And part was given to the Serbian army.  "This unit ... no

10     longer exists ..."

11             So, first of all, August 1992 is when we talked earlier about the

12     mosque being blown up and we confirmed that by that time there was only a

13     handful of Muslims left in Vlasenica.  So once the unit that made Muslims

14     disappear without a trace had made all of the Muslims disappear without a

15     trace except for a handful and the supreme commander's forces blew up the

16     mosque, at that point you disbanded this unit; correct?

17        A.   If one was to go by dates, that is so.  However, as of the moment

18     this platoon was attached to the TO, the Intervention Platoon, that is,

19     of the TO to the police station, we kept asking constantly that the unit

20     be disbanded, removed, or dealt with in another way.  Ultimately, none of

21     their members had the conditions to be employed by the Ministry of the

22     Interior and to work in the police because they had not been trained to

23     do so.  It was for those reasons that we kept intervening and the

24     sequence of events was such that the minister indeed ordered that the

25     unit be disbanded.  We undertook that immediately so that the station

Page 35070

 1     could operate in keeping with the Law on Internal Affairs.

 2        Q.   Right --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, in your question did you say that the

 4     supreme commander's forces blew up the mosque?

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  What did you mean by "supreme commander"?

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Mr. Karadzic, VRS, blew up the mosque, his forces.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:

10        Q.   Exactly, that's my point, sir.  As soon as you got the order to

11     disband this unit, it was disbanded; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Before that, you said in your statement, you didn't have time.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I tender this document, please?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6192, Your Honours.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:

18        Q.   All right, 65 ter 24719 is the last topic, sir.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I'm sorry this does not have a

20     translation so we'll -- may have to mark it but there's very little that

21     needs to be translated.  It just didn't have time -- there is a

22     translation.  I thought there wasn't.

23        Q.   While it's coming up, just to save time, this is a list of

24     SJB Vlasenica reserve militia -- reserve police force, I should say,

25     sorry, at the Vlasenica SJB security station.  If you look at persons

Page 35071

 1     listed under number 76 and number 77, it's Miroslav Kraljevic and

 2     Elvis Djuric, commander and deputy commander of the special unit; right.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   They stayed in the MUP; right?

 5        A.   Miroslav Kraljevic was seriously wounded sometime in August.  He

 6     was then hospitalised in the VMA.  For that reason, he couldn't be

 7     deployed anywhere and yet he had to exercise some of his rights such as

 8     salary to the extent possible.  That's why he was kept on the list.  As

 9     for Elvis Djuric, he was sent alongside the group of policemen who had

10     the conditions in terms of education to attend training, to attend a

11     course to become regular policemen.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  May I tender this document, please?

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6193.

15             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  Thank you, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's clear we will not hear the evidence of

17     the next witness.

18             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue with your re-examination.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] I'll start with what is the newest thing in our

22     recollection.  A moment ago, on page 99, you were quoted that part of the

23     unit was given to the army.  Which part was given to the army and which

24     part was treated in a different way?

25        A.   A part of that unit was given to the army.  It was such men who

Page 35072

 1     had no conditions or interest to apply to attend a policeman course.

 2     They were then given to the army and sent to provide security at

 3     Crna Rijeka as far as I know.  So some of them were completely dealt with

 4     by having then gone to the army, whereas others went to attend a

 5     policeman course.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  On page 95 you were asked about the composition of

 7     the station.  You have mentioned it before as well as in your statement

 8     that the joint police was no longer trusted.  Can you tell us briefly

 9     what was the reason for that --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I did not quote anything,

12     Your Excellency.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm not sure, Your Honour.  I think it's okay if

15     we just continue.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I'm of the same opinion.

17             Let's continue.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Can you tell us briefly why the joint police was no longer

20     trusted?

21        A.   One of the reasons was because in the previous period, let's say

22     in April, part of the Muslim policemen headed by their commander, the

23     official commander, Fadil Turkovic, took full part in the activities

24     surrounding the procurement of weapons and the police force became

25     divided.  Consequently, the patrols could no longer function, or rather,

Page 35073

 1     one could not create such a shift which could guarantee security during

 2     the working hours.  One could not set up a multi-ethnic police patrol

 3     that would be able to guarantee it.  Given the influence of commander

 4     Fadil, the police force became divided.  Before the 21st of April we

 5     still managed to function in keeping with the Law on the Organisation of

 6     Internal Affairs of the former B&H.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Since in the Muslim part of the municipality they did

 8     not establish a police station, who was in charge of police affairs in

 9     that rather large part of Vlasenica?

10        A.   They had an active reserve force before the 21st of April.

11        Q.   No, sorry, the part that was not under control of the Serb

12     forces, such as Kasaba and Cerska, who policed those areas?

13        A.   There were Muslim policemen.  Some of them had left the station

14     and joined the reserve police station in Kasaba.  In any case, Muslims

15     for the most part.

16        Q.   What was the ethnic make-up of the police in the Muslim-held

17     territory?

18        A.   They were all Muslim.  They had an ethnically pure force.

19        Q.   Thank you.  At page 89, which is Exhibit P3216, there is

20     reference to five murders.  Are you saying that in the four months of war

21     there were five murders?

22        A.   I tried to comment that we processed the cases of five murders,

23     although I'm not familiar with the structure of the crimes.  Although it

24     was a time of war, the police undertook full treatment, full

25     investigation on site and records as well.

Page 35074

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the document, P3216,

 3     page 10 in English and 12 in Serbian.  English is enough.  Could we just

 4     zoom in, please.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Here we can see the perpetrators.  Could you indicate the ones

 7     that you actually prosecuted?  And we have a breakdown here according to

 8     ethnic membership.  For instance, under numbers 12 and 13, who are those

 9     men?

10        A.   Tesic Roksandic, and under 13 we see Zoran Surkovic.

11        Q.   What ethnicity are they?

12        A.   They're Serbian.

13        Q.   Thank you.  On page 16, lines 42 and 45 - so page 16 of the

14     English, please - what ethnicity are the people under 42 and 45?

15        A.   Stanimir Vidovic is a Serb, and 45, Goran Viskovic, also a Serb.

16        Q.   Thank you.  On page 21 - 21, please - would you take a look at

17     59, 60, and 61, those numbers.  Are there any Serbs under 59?

18        A.   Yes.  Zoran Bijelic.

19        Q.   Under 6; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  What about 60 and 61?

22        A.   Under 61 we see Mirko Vojvodic and 61 --

23        Q.   Mladen, son of Sretan; right?

24        A.   Yes, yes.

25        Q.   Are they --

Page 35075

 1        A.   Serbs.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 24 in English, please.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Would you just take a look at page 64 and 71, what ethnicity are

 5     they?

 6        A.   Sasa Masic, Dragan Dimitrovic, they are Serb.  And what other

 7     number did you say?

 8        Q.   71.

 9        A.   Under 71 we see Janko Pajic, also a Serb.

10        Q.   There are more but I don't want to waste any more time --

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, just to be clear, I'm a little bit

12     late but this doesn't really arise out of the cross because the cross

13     point was - and he's found one - but that only Muslims were prosecuted

14     for weapons, illegal weapons possession, that's what I took him to, not

15     that no Serbs were ever prosecuted.  The ones he's shown here, one of the

16     murders was a Serb killing a Serb, others are for theft.  He hasn't put

17     it to the witness what these cases are about.  So just to be clear, my

18     suggestion was never that no Serbs were prosecuted for anything.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Since you said that you would be moving, let's continue.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is it correct what has been said here, that these Serbs were

23     prosecuted for murders of Serbs and not Muslims?

24        A.   Well, for the most part they were prosecuted.  I can't recall all

25     the crimes, but there were cases where in the main we prosecuted for the

Page 35076

 1     murders of Serbs, but for others we couldn't really document it.  But

 2     this -- it depends on the period of time.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, move on to another topic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   On page 88 you were -- it was suggested to you that you had said

 7     that the Serb side, or rather, the SDS armed people together with the JNA

 8     and you explained that that was the result of mobilisation.  Now, could

 9     you tell us what the position of the SD -- of the Serbian Democratic

10     Party was on the issue of response to call-ups?

11        A.   Well, the Serbian Democratic Party supported the -- Yugoslavia

12     and that means that it also was in favour or supported the respect for

13     all the laws that were in place, which means that the people should

14     respond to mobilisation.  Now, it was a legal obligation of every citizen

15     to respond to a mobilisation call-up under the existing laws then.

16        Q.   Thank you.  But despite the legal obligations, not all parties

17     took the same position; correct?

18        A.   Well, that's correct.  It was even proved that the SDA had,

19     already for a year, from sometime in mid-1991, instructed people not to

20     send their young soldiers to the army and not to respond to the

21     mobilisation.  We have this case where this Mr. Izet Redzic, when the

22     mobilisation was proclaimed, when he came as an official person, he and

23     the then-deputy Kavazbasic, they went to Banja Luka.  They collected and

24     took all the -- or withdrew -- took all the Muslim men who had been

25     mobilised into that unit and took them out.  So they created a situation,

Page 35077

 1     while only the Serbs remained, so that later they could point this out

 2     that someone had actually made this army be all Serb, but that's not

 3     true.  This was actually their strategy to project that kind of

 4     impression --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I'll hear from you, although I know what --

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Then I'll just --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  -- what the point is --

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  I was just saying that the first question arguably

 9     arose from the cross; the second didn't when it went into the broader

10     issue of different ethnicities' views of mobilisation in general.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's move on, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, it certainly does arise from

13     that and you can see that from the page that I cited.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Now, you said that a criminal report was submitted because of the

16     blowing up of the mosque.  Was the criminal report drafted for an unknown

17     accused or for known perpetrators?

18        A.   Well, no, no --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter requests that the witness

20     repeat his answer.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Interpreters couldn't hear your answer, Mr. Djuric.

22     Could you repeat it.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the case of the mosque there was

24     a report submitted to the Prosecutor's office, a case that -- a complaint

25     that was submitted against unknown perpetrators.

Page 35078

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Did you know who the perpetrators were?

 3        A.   No.  Well, had we known, we would not do this, we would not

 4     submit a report.  We would actually submit a classic criminal report,

 5     criminal complaint.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Now, did you know of any permission granted by any

 7     kind of organ or authorities to allow this kind of behaviour or conduct?

 8        A.   No, I am not aware of any orders that such activities should be

 9     carried out.

10        Q.   The question did not reflect that I asked whether the central

11     organs or me as the commander ever issued an order that would allow such

12     conduct.  This did not make it into the transcript when my question was

13     interpreted.

14        A.   Well, generally observing what your positions were, you could

15     never infer such a conclusion and especially or, more specifically, you

16     never dealt with such specifics or such orders.  You never issued such

17     orders or supported it.  That is my opinion.  That's my view.

18        Q.   Thank you.  When you said that the army could also conduct

19     investigations, would they do that if a commander issued an order to that

20     effect or if he knew who had ordered it?

21        A.   Most probably, yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now briefly take a look at

24     P6190, the last page.  Pages 19 or 20.  This is not the last page.  I'm

25     referring to the part that was admitted into evidence.

Page 35079

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Page 21.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps the previous page.  I

 3     believe that 19 and 20 were admitted into evidence.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Is this the page?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, it is.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you tell us what the assault group that is mentioned at the

 8     bottom of the page, the Planinci or the mount, what kind of forces is

 9     this a reference to?

10        A.   This was a reference to the column that was moving from

11     Srebrenica and the information we had was that they crossed the

12     Konjevic Polje communication and were headed for Crni Vrh, which is above

13     Zvornik towards Tuzla, and that they were getting closer to the defence

14     lines.

15        Q.   Are you referring to Muslim forces?

16        A.   Yes.  Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please can we have page 2, now.

18     Page 22, please.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Can you help us and tell us what is the meaning of these words

21     "1.000 Batkovici," and this is an entry for the 15th of July and then

22     below that it says "Miletic"?

23        A.   I cannot comment on this.  I don't remember.  But as -- since

24     they're mentioning Batkovici here, this probably means that perhaps some

25     1.000 people were moving towards Batkovici.

Page 35080

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see the eight pages

 3     further from this spot.  I believe the end of the ERN is 90.  And before

 4     that could we just admit this into evidence, this one page?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll add this page.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you tell us what the meaning of these words is "Slapovici,"

 9     and then the third line where it says the safety deposit box or the safe

10     was not opened, what is this a reference to?  What is "Slapovici"?  What

11     are we talking about here?  And then it goes on:  Tendency towards

12     looting about 400 buildings and then vault has not been opened?

13        A.   I cannot really remember this, but this was probably up there

14     probably towards Srebrenica someplace.  I don't really know.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this,

17     please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  For what purpose?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, for the purpose of the

20     12 kilos of gold that somehow appeared, they were found with the

21     perpetrators, whereas here we see that it says that the vault had not

22     been opened.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  What page is this?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This was discussed in Ademovic, the

25     gold.  This is 973, that is -- or, rather, 930 is the ERN number.  It

Page 35081

 1     ends in 930.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  What's the e-court page number?

 3             Say it to the transcript.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  E-court page 30, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  3-0?

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, what date is it?

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  It should be 27th or --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  After 27th --

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah, sometime after 27 July.  I mean, I'll note

11     that the witness had no idea what this referred to, he says.  But

12     again -- I mean, I think we either admit the whole thing or -- which is

13     not a -- I think it's not a huge document or piecemeal like this, but

14     under your -- sorry, I'm a little tired.  Under your Chamber's prior

15     ruling you would not admit this page, but I don't really have any problem

16     with any page of this document being admitted.  I think it's useful.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Given that he confirmed his handwriting, although he

18     didn't remember what it is about, there's no harm in admitting this page.

19     We'll do this.  We'll add this to the exhibit, page 30.  Yes.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   You were asked and there was a suggestion in that question that

23     you had seen a couple of thousand of people on those buses.  Could you

24     tell us how many buses did you see from Vidikovac passing by there at

25     that point in time?

Page 35082

 1        A.   Well, this column was rather long; however, I couldn't count the

 2     buses at that very point -- at that very moment.  But later on I learned

 3     from some conversations that I had that there were some 50 to 60 buses,

 4     mostly buses.

 5        Q.   Well, how big were these buses and how many people could they

 6     take on average?

 7        A.   Well, on average it would be about -- they could bus about

 8     45 people on them.

 9        Q.   Very well.  Thank you.  On page 62 it was also mentioned that

10     there were Muslim civilians who had been killed in the village.  Now,

11     were these civilians armed or was there shooting on both sides?  And this

12     was in Drum.

13        A.   Well, I didn't take part in that operation but I heard about it.

14     There was an action underway there and probably there was some kind of

15     provocation which then triggered this shooting, but I cannot claim with

16     certainty whether these civilians were armed or not.  But in any case,

17     this did happen.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, how much longer do you need?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe about five minutes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  If you could conclude as soon as possible.  Please

21     continue.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   You were asked today, or rather, it was put to you, you were

25     asked whether there was a threat to Zvornik from these forces that were

Page 35083

 1     in that area.  Was this threat only a threat against Zvornik and how long

 2     did this threat to Zvornik from Muslim forces that were around in the

 3     woods, how long did it go on for?

 4        A.   Well, in the area above Zvornik, towards Udrc, we had information

 5     that there were about some 3.000 to 4.000 men in the column.  Later on we

 6     established that over 80 per cent of them were, in fact, soldiers who

 7     had -- who -- who had changed clothes.  But this original -- this initial

 8     information that there was some 3.000 to 4.000 men, that wasn't correct.

 9     There were far many more than that.

10        Q.   But can you tell us whether this threat to Zvornik was

11     long-lasting?  How long did it go on for?

12        A.   Well, it was a threat to Zvornik until the moment when the

13     commander, Colonel Pandurevic, ordered that an opening be made towards

14     Tuzla.  But then there was still a threat because of all these groups

15     that were around there in that area and it was a threat to them.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please see 1D1220.

18     This document has been translated.  It is actually 1D21220.

19             The date is the 1st of August and it was sent to your station

20     from Milici.

21             1D21220.  That's not it.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   While waiting for it, can you tell us when was this law adopted,

24     when the state security was taken out of MUP and when the names were

25     changed?

Page 35084

 1        A.   I can't recall exactly.  I think it was in 1992, as of, say,

 2     April on.  I can't be precise.  I do know that they separated the public

 3     security and the state security.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  On the 1st of August, 1995, Tomislav Savkic asked --

 5     well, you can see it there.  He says several thousand soldiers made a

 6     break through along that axis and there are another 1500 left.  He also

 7     says that Milici is under threat.  It was already the 1st of August.

 8     What can you tell us about that?

 9        A.   As I've said already, the column which went through left behind

10     sizeable groups which moved about the territory of Birac region between

11     Srebrenica and Tuzla.  There was a danger for the inhabitants and

12     settlements.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  It doesn't really arise much from the cross, but

17     no objection.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That's why I asked you.

19             We'll admit this.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3103, Your Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It does arise.  It was mentioned

22     that there was a threat to Zvornik.  In any case, the last question,

23     since I don't want to take up anyone else's time anymore.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Mr. Djuric, have you ever seen a written report or any kind of

Page 35085

 1     written communication reporting on the killing of Srebrenica prisoners?

 2        A.   No, I have never seen that report directly.  I only received some

 3     information later on through these statements, testimonies, and whatnot.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  After July 1995 have you ever had occasion to meet,

 5     the two of us?

 6        A.   I don't think so.

 7        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Djuric.  I have no further questions.

 8        A.   Thank you, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I don't -- haven't asked to do this

11     ever before, but there was a question put to the witness about what the

12     "1.000 Batkovic" meant in his handwritten notebook, and he said he

13     couldn't remember exactly what it meant.  He discussed this in his

14     interview with me in June 2010, gave a little bit more.  I don't know

15     if -- I think it might be useful to refresh his recollection on what he

16     said then and just see if it helps him remember or not, but I realise

17     that it's -- my part is done.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you proceed.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

21             Could we have that up again, it's 24 -- P6190, page 20 in both

22     languages -- sorry, sorry, 22.

23                           Further Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls:

24        Q.   This will come up in a minute, sir.  Here is what you said when

25     we asked you about this in your interview.

Page 35086

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  This is at page 48 for my friends.

 2        Q.   [As read] "A thousand Batkovic, Bratunac, I don't know what it

 3     was.  Some information, it is mentioned here Miletic where it was the

 4     fact that I mentioned earlier that I was convinced they are going to

 5     Bratunac, something like that.

 6             "Q.  What's the word after 'Bratunac'?  'No'?

 7             "Batkovic.  No.  I either asked, somebody told me, or I passed

 8     this information.  I was still convinced that they were going to

 9     Batkovic.

10             "Q.  Yeah, but then you wrote 'no' because you found out they

11     weren't?"

12             You:

13             "Most probably somebody said no, that they are not.

14             "You don't remember who told you?

15             "No, no, it says here 'Miletic' but it's referred to as Miletic.

16     I don't think I communicated with him."

17             So does that at all help you remember, would be my question?

18        A.   It is all in the area of simply noting down events.  It is

19     difficult to establish a link from this point in time.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your evidence,

21     Mr. Djuric.  Thank you for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you

22     are free to go.

23             Mr. Robinson, I wanted to --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             JUDGE KWON:  -- make an observation with respect to your comment

Page 35087

 1     about usage of bar table motion.  I will do that first thing on Monday

 2     morning.

 3             The hearing is adjourned -- I'm sorry, I didn't see you.  You

 4     were hiding.  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I'll keep that in mind, Mr. President, by way of

 6     this location.

 7             Just by way of the reference I made earlier to Court's earlier

 8     decisions about statements, I think the Court can turn to September 27,

 9     2011, the transcript pages 11819 -- excuse me.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             MR. TIEGER:  I think that was 19496 and lines 13 through 24, I

12     believe, and I think that was 27 September 2011.  It was one I was able

13     to find quickly.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             I thank the staff, interpreters and reporters, for their

16     indulgence.  Hearing is adjourned.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.04 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 11th day of

19                           March, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.