Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 35850

 1                           Friday, 22 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 6             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, good morning, Mr. President.  I'd like to

 8     introduce Catherine Connelly, from Australia, who is one of our legal

 9     interns who will be joining us this session.  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Before we continue with

11     Mr. Spasojevic's -- I'm sorry.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  His evidence, there are three oral rulings the

14     Chamber wishes to give at the moment.

15             First matter is related to the Prosecution's request for deferral

16     of cross-examination of subpoenaed viva voce witnesses.

17             On the 19th of March, 2013, the Prosecution requested that

18     cross-examination of subpoenaed witnesses be, as a matter of principle,

19     postponed for two weeks until after examination-in-chief of the said

20     witnesses.  In support, the Prosecution claims that it is not aware

21     whether these witnesses will ultimately testify and that it has not been

22     notified of the facts upon which these witnesses will testify.  The

23     accused's legal advisor supported the Prosecution's request and submitted

24     that the Prosecution should be given some period of time to prepare after

25     examination-in-chief of subpoenaed viva voce witnesses.

Page 35851

 1             The Chamber does not consider that the Prosecution's request is

 2     warranted.  Subpoenaed witnesses will necessarily testify viva voce and,

 3     as such, there's obviously no need for Rule 92 ter material to be

 4     disclosed ahead of testimony.  In the case of witnesses who are persons

 5     previously convicted by the Tribunal, such as Radislav Krstic and

 6     Zdravko Tolimir, the Prosecution, as does the Defence, has access to a

 7     plethora of material gathered over a number of years and to the entire

 8     record of their respective trials.  Moreover, for all subpoenaed

 9     witnesses, the Prosecution will be able to refer to the relevant motions

10     in which the accused sets out the contours of what he expects the said

11     witness to testify about.

12             The Chamber is therefore of the view that in cases of subpoenaed

13     witnesses who are testifying viva voce, the Prosecution should be able to

14     start its cross-examination at the end of examination-in-chief by the

15     accused.  Of course, there may be instances where good cause having been

16     shown by the Prosecution, a short delay before cross-examination is

17     warranted.

18             Next matter is related to counsel for Milan Martic.

19             The Chamber is seized of detained witness Milan Martic's

20     complaint against the decision of the Registry denying the request to

21     assign Defence counsel filed on the 19th of March, 2013.  In Martic's

22     submission, he informs the Chamber that he has requested that his

23     attorney, Predrag Milovancevic, act as counsel, both prior to and during

24     his testimony as part of the accused's Defence case.  Martic notes that

25     the Registry has not granted this request, and that he and the Registry

Page 35852

 1     have been unable to reach agreement regarding alternative arrangements

 2     with other proposed counsel.

 3             On the 20th of March, 2013, the Prosecution orally informed the

 4     Chamber that it did not take a position on this matter but noted that,

 5     pursuant to, inter alia, Rule 44(B) of the Tribunal's Rules of Procedure

 6     and Evidence, Martic's submission should be reviewed by the President.

 7             On 20th of March, 2013, the accused filed the submission in

 8     support of Milan Martic's appeal on assignment of counsel in support of

 9     Martic's submission and furthermore requested that the Chamber vacate its

10     order, issued orally on the 13th of March, 2013, that Martic testify

11     during the week of 25th of March, 2013, because no proofing has yet taken

12     place.  During a hearing on the 21st of March, the accused's legal

13     advisor argued that the Trial Chamber is competent to rule on the

14     submission.

15             The Chamber considers that matters related to the assignment of

16     counsel, pursuant to Rule 45 of the Rules, fall under the authority of

17     the President of the Tribunal and finds that there are no circumstances

18     in this case that warrant its involvement in the interests of justice.

19             The Chamber therefore dismisses Martic's complaint as not

20     properly filed before the Chamber.  Furthermore, given the urgency of the

21     matter and the interest of judicial economy, the Chamber requests that

22     the relevant filings and transcripts of oral submissions be immediately

23     transmitted to the President.

24             Finally, given that proofing has not yet commenced, the Chamber

25     will vacate its oral ruling of 13th of March, 2013, that Martic be called

Page 35853

 1     to testify during the week of 25th -- 25th of March, 2013.  Once the

 2     President has made his determination, the Chamber will return to the

 3     issue of appropriate date for Martic's testimony.

 4             Finally, the Chamber shall now issue an oral ruling in relation

 5     to the accused's motion for disclosure of records pertaining to

 6     Milan Babic, filed publicly on the 18th of March, 2013, in which the

 7     accused requests, pursuant to Rule 54 of the Tribunal's Rules of

 8     Procedure and Evidence, as well as Rule 34 of the Rules of Detention,

 9     that the Chamber order the Registry to disclose to him all psychological

10     evaluations of Milan Babic.

11             He argues that this is necessary as the information sought goes

12     to the credibility of Babic whose evidence from previous cases was

13     admitted in this case pursuant to Rule 92 quater.  The accused claims

14     that he was only recently informed by the upcoming witness, Milan Martic,

15     that Babic may have been diagnosed with a personality disorder while at

16     the detention unit.  He also notes that these psychological evaluation

17     were made available to Judge Parker who conducted an inquiry into Babic's

18     suicide in 2006, as referred to in the report prepared by Judge Parker

19     following this inquiry.

20             The Prosecution responded to the accused's motion on the

21     20th of March, 2013, arguing that it should be denied on the basis that

22     the medical information sought is highly confidential and that the

23     accused has failed to show that confidential medical information

24     confirming the existence of a personality disorder even exists.  In the

25     alternative, the Prosecution argues that the Chamber should examine the

Page 35854

 1     medical information in-camera to determine whether it is relevant to any

 2     of the issues in this case, before ordering its disclosure.

 3             The Registry also responded to the motion on the 20th of March,

 4     2013, arguing that it should be denied on the basis that the second-hand

 5     unconfirmed rumour by Martic does not approach the threshold required for

 6     the Trial Chamber to overturn the principle of medical confidentiality

 7     enshrined in Rules 11 and 34(C) of the Rules of Detention.

 8             Having considered the arguments made by the parties, the Chamber

 9     finds that it is in the interests of justice and the good administration

10     of this trial that the psychological evaluation of Babic be first

11     disclosed to the Chamber for an in-camera inspection so that it can

12     determine whether they contain any information that may be relevant to

13     the accused's case.  In coming to this conclusion, the Chamber considered

14     the fact that Babic's evidence was admitted under Rule 92 quater and

15     that, therefore, the accused was devoid of an opportunity to

16     cross-examine him.  The Chamber was also not persuaded by the main crux

17     of the Prosecution's and the Registry's responses to the effect that, by

18     relying on Martic, the accused has made no genuine effort to demonstrate

19     that Babic's medical information would be relevant and necessary to his

20     case.  Given the highly confidential nature of the medical documentation

21     sought, it is not clear to the Chamber how the accused could have

22     obtained more information or done more to support this motion.

23             Accordingly, the Chamber orders the Registrar, pursuant to

24     Rule 54 of the Rules, to provide the Chamber with the copies of any

25     reports or information on the psychological state of Milan Babic while at

Page 35855

 1     the detention unit.  The Chamber shall then inspect these psychological

 2     evaluations in-camera before deciding whether they should be disclosed to

 3     the accused.

 4             Unless there are any other matters --

 5             Yes, we received the go from Judge Lattanzi.  French translation

 6     has been just completed.

 7             Yes Mr. Tieger.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  It's nice to see the shoe on the other foot.

 9             I just wanted to make one note, Mr. President.  The Court has

10     been dealing with, during the course of this week, various problems

11     arising from the e-court upgrade.  I wanted to note that those problems

12     persist after court.  And indeed what seems to be happening and what was

13     reflected over the course of the last two nights is that e-court is not

14     available after court and then is fixed immediately before court.  Now,

15     that -- so the process appears to be less troublesome than it has been in

16     court, but in effect is inaccessible to the parties at critical periods.

17             We're making efforts to bring it to the attention of the relevant

18     arms of the Tribunal so it can be addressed, but I simply wanted to note

19     that because it has a tremendous impact on the parties' ability to

20     prepare.  And it hasn't delayed things yet, but with the weekend coming

21     up, I'm concerned about what kind of impact it may have.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  It is duly noted, Mr. Tieger.

23             Shall we bring in the witness.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  While we have some time and we're bringing in the

25     witness, I would -- with respect to those -- those oral rulings that you

Page 35856

 1     made today, some of them are quite important for the jurisprudence of the

 2     Tribunal.  I think the issue of the jurisdiction of Mr. Martic's

 3     complaint as well as the inspection of the witness's psychological

 4     records are issues of first impression at the Tribunal, and when you make

 5     an oral ruling, it doesn't really lend itself to being available to

 6     others in the jurisprudence.  And I was wondering whether the Chamber

 7     might consider making some -- putting some cover page and making a

 8     written record of your oral decisions so that it is entered into the

 9     database of the Tribunal and can be researched and located by people who

10     are studying these things.

11             Thank you.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE KWON:  That seems to be the sort of idea that I'm hearing

14     for the first time.  The Chamber will give it a think.

15             Good morning, Mr. Spasojevic.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  And good morning, Your Honours.

19                           WITNESS:  DUSAN SPASOJEVIC [Resumed]

20                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

21                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson: [Continued]

22        Q.   And good morning, Mr. Spasojevic.

23             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 24806, please.

24        Q.   And, Mr. Spasojevic, when we concluded yesterday, we were

25     discussing the multiple murder of members of the Sarajlic and other

Page 35857

 1     families, and today I'd like to turn to another criminal event involving

 2     a murder and rape against Muslim civilians in Bijeljina and this was a

 3     crime that the police in Bijeljina actually did investigate at the time.

 4             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to page 38 in both languages of

 5     this document, which is a Humanitarian Law Centre report on Serbian war

 6     crimes trials in 2012.

 7        Q.   Now, at the bottom of the page this report refers to the 2012

 8     conviction of Dragan Jovic, Zoran Djurdjevic and Alen Ristic by the

 9     higher court in Belgrade.  Now you testified in that trial in 2011 in

10     relation to an investigation you conducted in 1992; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we he could go to the next page in both

13     languages.

14        Q.   At the top of the page, under "Course of Proceedings," the

15     indictment against the accused is summarised.  And it explains that on --

16     the allegations were that on the 14th of June, 1992, in Bijeljina, the

17     three accused, together with two others, entered the house of Ramo Avdic,

18     seeking weapons.  After a hand-over of weapons, they took money and

19     jewellery, then raped Mr. Ramo's daughter and daughter-in-law, in the

20     presence of Mr. Avdic's wife and son.  Then they killed Mr. Avdic by

21     placing a gun into his mouth and pulling the trigger.  They then took the

22     two women who they had already raped, paraded them naked through the

23     town, stole a car from a nearby house, drove the two women towards the

24     village of Ljeljenca, stopped the car, took the two women out of the car,

25     raped and sexually abused them again, and left them at the side of the

Page 35858

 1     road?

 2             Now is that information the same or similar to the information

 3     you gathered about this crime at the time?

 4        A.   Yes.  And it is completely truthful.  I would just add something,

 5     if I may, and that was the check-point that you asked me about yesterday.

 6     It had a very important role, because you suggested yesterday the

 7     volunteers had set up the check-points.  It was the police employees who

 8     set up the check-points.  We had five of these, and the aim was to

 9     prevent such acts and also looting and thefts and so on.

10        Q.   What check-point are you referring to?

11        A.   That was the check-point in the direction of Brcko.  That was

12     where these persons were stopped and arrested.  And we had another four,

13     if I'm not mistaken, in the direction of Raca, Zvornik and Ugljevik, so I

14     think there were four or five check-points but they were all police

15     check-points.

16        Q.   Okay.  And if we go down to not the immediately following

17     paragraph but the one after that, the summary says:

18             "Testifying in their own defence, the accused said they went to

19     Bosnia as volunteers, under the auspices of the Serb Radical Party, and

20     when they arrived Bosnia, the VRS supplied them with uniforms and

21     weapons."

22             Now is that consistent with information you gathered at the time,

23     about the accused?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  And if we could go to the next page in

Page 35859

 1     both languages.

 2        Q.   And towards the bottom of the first full paragraph, it refers to

 3     your involvement.  It says -- in the trial.  It says:

 4             "Also questioned were witnesses Dusan Spasojevic, a police

 5     inspector, and Milorad Lovre, a crime scene technician, both working at

 6     the Bijeljina SUP at the time.  Immediately after the injured parties

 7     reported the crime, the two men performed an investigation and obtained

 8     medical documentation for the injured parties, Nizama and Hajreta."

 9             And again, is this an accurate description of what you told the

10     court in 2011 and what you did at the time?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Okay.  And in the next paragraph about four lines down, the

13     summary says:

14             "On the basis of their own testimonies," and they're talking

15     about the testimony of accused, "and the testimonies of witnesses

16     Dusan Spasojevic," you, "and Ramo Fazic, the court established that the

17     injured parties were civilians and that the victim Ramo Avdic was no

18     Muslim extremist but a reservist at the Bijeljina SUP, a wealthy and

19     respected man actively involved in efforts towards a peaceful settlement

20     of conflicts between Serbs and Muslims in Bijeljina."

21             Now, is that -- can you confirm these facts and is that

22     consistent with what you told the court in 2011?

23        A.   Yes.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  If we could go to the next page in both

25     languages.

Page 35860

 1             And this is towards the bottom of the first full paragraph in

 2     English and near the bottom of the page in the B/C/S.

 3        Q.   It says:

 4             "The fact that the accused took money and valuables while in the

 5     house was established both on the basis of the injured parties'

 6     testimonies and the testimony of witness Dusan Spasojevic, who said that

 7     during the arrest, the police found money and gold jewellery on the

 8     accused and returned it to the injured parties."

 9             And there's a footnote after the word "arrest" and at the bottom

10     of the page it says:

11             "The defendants were arrested by the Bijeljina police department

12     following the incident and handed over to the military police who

13     released them a couple of days, after which the defendants went to an

14     area in the Zvornik municipality and joined the paramilitary formation

15     Simo's Chetniks."

16             And again, is that consistent with information you gathered at

17     the time?

18        A.   As the persons were uniformed, we could keep them detained for

19     three days in detention on remand, and they were then handed over to the

20     military police who expelled them in the territory of Serbia but they

21     could have arrived in Zvornik by some other way.

22        Q.   So you confirm that the military authorities didn't process this

23     crime but they, as you put it, expelled the accused?

24        A.   I think that the statements were taken from them and forwarded to

25     a military court, and that 15 or 20 days later, as far as I can remember,

Page 35861

 1     they were expelled to the territory of Serbia because there were no

 2     conditions to initiate proceedings.

 3        Q.   Can you explain what you mean by "no conditions to initiate

 4     proceedings"?

 5        A.   Proceedings were actually initiated in terms of the documents

 6     that were collected, and everything else that it was possible to collect,

 7     it was collected.  But I think that the military court was just being

 8     established and they had no premises and so on, so I believe that that

 9     was how things went and that those were the reasons.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I just intervene about the

11     transcript because the witness said conditions for conducting proceedings

12     rather than initiating proceedings and these were problems with

13     interpretation.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Whether it is translation issue, we'll

15     leave it.

16             But this document says "a couple of days later."  But you said

17     "15 or 20 days later."  Do you have any basis that this document we are

18     seeing is not correct?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not claim that it is not

20     correct, but Bijeljina is a small town, and I went to a cafe with the

21     policeman that I handed them over to, and he told me that they were

22     expelled to Serbia.  This is it how I got this information.

23             JUDGE KWON:  But how long after were they expelled?  After being

24     handed over to the military police.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps they were in the police

Page 35862

 1     prison on remand three days until statements were taken from them and the

 2     other documents prepared.  Because they were wearing uniforms, after

 3     three days they were handed over to the military police, and I could even

 4     claim that they were up to 30 days held in the military police remand

 5     prison but I cannot claim that with full certainty.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you Ms. Gustafson.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:

 8        Q.   Mr. Spasojevic, if the military court wasn't sufficiently

 9     prepared to deal with this crime, why weren't they then just handed back

10     to the civilian authorities to deal with?  Why instead were the

11     perpetrators of this terrible crime allowed to go free?

12        A.   I cannot answer that question for you.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  I'd like to tender page -- the cover page

14     of this document and pages 38 to 42, which discuss this trial.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6218, Your Honours.

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:

18        Q.   And one last question on this document, Mr. Spasojevic.  This

19     report indicates that the Belgrade Higher Court did indeed convict these

20     three defendants of this crime in June 2012.  Can you confirm this?

21        A.   Yes, I went to testify there.

22        Q.   Just to clarify, you are aware that they were ultimately

23     convicted; is that right?

24        A.   I was not aware of that, but ...

25        Q.   But you have no reason to doubt the assertion in this report that

Page 35863

 1     the Belgrade Higher Court entered a conviction; is that right?

 2        A.   I never had any suspicions regarding the court anyway.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And after these perpetrators were released or expelled, as

 4     you put it, by the military police, there was nothing done about this

 5     crime for years, and it was only in 2009 that the Bijeljina prosecutor's

 6     office opened an investigation into this case; is that right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if we could go to 65 ter 24795, please.

 9             This is the 2009 order from the Bijeljina prosecutor's office to

10     the SJB Bijeljina to open an investigation into this case.  And if we go

11     to page 3 of the English, and page 3 of the B/C/S, at the bottom of the

12     English, the very top of the B/C/S, the document says:

13             "The order can be justified by the following circumstances and

14     evidence."

15             And if we go to the next page in the English there is a list of

16     all the investigative steps that were taken.  And we can see a number of

17     steps taken in the days immediately after this crime by the Bijeljina SJB

18     and the Bijeljina Lower Court.  We see underlined in the middle of the

19     page, it's -- there's a confirmation of the SJB Bijeljina of the

20     19th of June, 1992, of the handing over of the perpetrators to the

21     military authorities.

22        Q.   Is that consistent with your recollection of when these

23     perpetrators were handed over to the military police?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Okay.  And then there are -- right after that, there are a number

Page 35864

 1     of documents referred from the 2000s.  There's a 2006 notice of the War

 2     Crimes Department of the prosecutor's office.  It appears that one of the

 3     witnesses was examined in 2004, and there was a decision of the district

 4     court in Bijeljina of 2003.  And everything else relates to the actions

 5     of the Bijeljina police and the Bijeljina Lower Court.

 6             So, again, this document confirms that there were no

 7     investigative steps taken after this initial investigation until 2003 at

 8     the earliest; right?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And just in relation to one of your earlier answers about -- you

11     thought that the military authorities had taken statements or taken some

12     other steps, there's no mention anywhere in this list of evidence that

13     the military authorities took any investigative steps whatsoever.

14             Can you explain that, in light of your earlier answer?

15        A.   Well, I have no insight into the documentation of the military

16     authorities, and I could not know what they did.

17        Q.   Okay.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender this document, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  But on the same page we see several interviews made

20     by SJB Bijeljina.  That's correct.

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, Your Honour.  My point was that there was an

22     investigation conducted by the SJB immediately after this event and this

23     document is consistent with that.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive this.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6219, Your Honours.

Page 35865

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Now if we could go -- I'm like to move on to

 2     another topic, but if we could to P2919, the last page of that document.

 3        Q.   Just before we go to that next topic I'd like to go back briefly

 4     to something we discussed yesterday.

 5             Yesterday you said that you knew Redzep Sabanovic by sight, and

 6     that was at page 35842.

 7             So if ... if we could -- if could you have a look at that photo,

 8     and if we could make it a bit larger.

 9             Are you able to recognise Redzep Sabanovic in this photograph,

10     Mr. Spasojevic?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   Thank you.  If we could now then move onto the next topic which

13     is -- in fact the last topic I wanted to discuss with you.  And that's

14     the -- your involvement in the commission investigating events in

15     Srebrenica that you discuss at the paragraph 19 of your statement.

16             And you said at that paragraph that you, together with

17     Goran Filipic and Dejan Joksimovic were involved in the commission

18     investigating events surrounding Srebrenica during the war.

19             Now, that commission you refer to, that was the commission formed

20     by the RS government in 2003 that issued its report in June 2004.  Is

21     that a correct understanding?

22        A.   Yes.  But I'd just like to make a correction in that explanation

23     of yours.

24             This was a commission that had been established by the government

25     of Republika Srpska, and we, as policemen, tried to establish where the

Page 35866

 1     secondary and primary graves were.  That was our foremost task in that

 2     period.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If we could go to 65 ter 24799.

 4        Q.   Now, this is the report that that commission issued in 2004.  And

 5     the commission members who were listed as signing the report were

 6     Milan Bogdanic, Djordje Stojakovic, Smail Cekic, Gordon Bacon,

 7     Gojko Vuketic, Milorad Ivosevic, and Zeljko Vujadinovic.

 8             So I take it from that that you were not a named commission

 9     member but you were working for the commission collecting information; is

10     that right?

11        A.   Yes.  And I had a meeting with them.

12        Q.   And you weren't involved in drafting this report, were you, the

13     actual writing of the report?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   And you were collecting information on behalf of this commission,

16     but I take it you didn't have access to all of the information that this

17     commission gathered from its various sources.

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now in your statement you asserted that this report was published

20     under pressure and that it ignored what you referred to as real facts.

21             Now, what this report found was that there was -- there were some

22     combat victims on both sides due to combat between the column fleeing

23     Srebrenica and the VRS and MUP forces.  But it also found that VRS and

24     MUP forces detained and executed thousands of Bosnian Muslim males from

25     Srebrenica, and I'd like to take you through some of those findings and

Page 35867

 1     ask you some questions about them.

 2             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And if, first, we could go to page 14 in the

 3     English, page 15 in the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And here near the top of the page in the English and in the

 5     middle of the B/C/S, the report finds that Bosnian Serb MUP forces killed

 6     roughly a thousand prisoners at the Kravica warehouse on 13th of July,

 7     1995?

 8             Now, is that fact, according to you, true, false, or you don't

 9     know?

10        A.   I don't know.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  If we could go to page 15 of the English

12     and page 16 of the B/C/S.  Near the top of the English, near the bottom

13     in the B/C/S, the report concludes that approximately a thousand

14     prisoners from Grbavci were taken away from Grbavci, blindfolded, and

15     executed in meadows in Orahovac, and that around 1500 to 2.000 prisoners

16     whose hands were tied behind their backs were executed at the Petkovci

17     dam, both on the 14th of July.

18             Again is this true, false, or you don't know?

19        A.   I don't know.

20        Q.   And one more finding at page 18 of the English and page 20 of the

21     B/C/S.  Near the top -- at the top of the page in the English and the

22     middle of the B/C/S, the report finds that on the 16th of July, between

23     1.000 and 1200 prisoners were taken from Pilica and executed at the

24     Branjevo military farm, and around 500 prisoners were executed at the

25     Pilica cultural centre, and another 500 prisoners executed in Kozluk.

Page 35868

 1             True, false, or you don't know?

 2        A.   I don't know.

 3        Q.   Okay.  Again, in your statement, you said that this report was

 4     published under pressure and ignored real facts.  Can you point to

 5     anything specific in this report that you claim is false?

 6        A.   Well, when we had a meeting, the entire commission was there, and

 7     the meeting was held with the head of the public security centre in

 8     Bijeljina, in his office.  The commission was so angry at us, they were

 9     so rude and brazen that every person had to be found and I immediately

10     saw that all of this was political.  This was political pressure from

11     them against us.  Really, during that month or two, sometimes we didn't

12     even go home.  We established the locations of these primary and

13     secondary graves, and all of that was handed over to them, but during

14     that work, we came to certain facts and evidence that refuted what you

15     presented to us now.  That's what I can say.  Especially these figures

16     that were bandied about.  I'm not challenging that a crime happened but

17     what I'm challenging is that the truth was not established there.  That's

18     what I'm saying, actually.  As a person who worked in the police for

19     30 years, that's what I can say.

20        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me ask you this:  Once of the commission's

21     apparent sources of information was Dragan Obrenovic, because there's

22     information in this report discussing Obrenovic's knowledge and actions

23     at this time and I refer to pages 16 and 17.

24             Were you aware of the fact of whether or not Dragan Obrenovic was

25     a source of information for the commission?

Page 35869

 1        A.   I don't know.  We just did police work, that is to say, operative

 2     work on the ground.

 3        Q.   So then you also didn't know that before this report was

 4     published, Dragan Obrenovic had pled guilty to and admitted his own

 5     involvement in the murder of thousands of Bosnian Muslims from

 6     Srebrenica, and had provided a detailed statement of facts about his

 7     involvement and the involvement of other VRS and MUP officials and units

 8     in these events.  That was in May 2003 and that's on the ICTY web site.

 9             Did you know about that?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Okay.  And the source of information that you specifically cite

12     in your statement is policeman Meholjic from Srebrenica and what he told

13     you.  Now, Mr. Hakija Meholjic was one of the Bosnian Muslim men from

14     Srebrenica who actually made it with the column to ABiH-held territory;

15     isn't that right?

16        A.   Yes.  He is just one of the many persons that we talked to.

17        Q.   Okay.  But he's the one -- he's the person, the only person you

18     mention in your statement, which is why I ask you about it.

19             So he didn't have any first-hand information about what happened

20     to the men who were detained or captured by the VRS, did he?

21        A.   Since he was a policeman, and I'm a policeman too, it was easiest

22     for me to communicate with him as he talked about how this happened.  He

23     didn't say anything specific to me, but he was sort of talking about what

24     had happened.

25             Also, other persons that we talked to indicated that there were

Page 35870

 1     something illogical, things that happened and that had not been

 2     investigated in accordance with the rules of police work and in

 3     accordance with the provisions of the Law on Criminal Procedure.

 4        Q.   And this commission report that's on the screen, the one you

 5     criticise and claim was published under pressure, this report was

 6     accepted at the time by both the RS government and the RS president,

 7     Dragan Cavic, and this was a relatively historic occasion given that it

 8     was the first time the RS authorities had acknowledged VRS and MUP

 9     responsibility for mass killings in relation to Srebrenica; right?

10        A.   He is a politician and I'm just a policeman.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Okay.  If we could go to 65 ter 24801, please.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, may this report be admitted.

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I was going to seek its admission as well.

14             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any difficulty.

15             We'll admit it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6220, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Can I intervene just a moment?

18             Mr. Spasojevic, in answer to the question of Ms. Gustafson, you

19     said you do not challenge that the crimes were committed.

20             Do you remember having said that?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  But previously, in -- in answer to the question of

23     Ms. Gustafson regarding the crimes happened at Kravica warehouse,

24     Orahovac, Petkovic, Pilica, Kozluk, et cetera, you said you don't know.

25     What do you mean by saying you do not know?

Page 35871

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I know later, but at that

 2     moment when it happened I didn't know.  That's what I meant when I was

 3     answering the Prosecutor's questions.  So I know how it happened when we

 4     were working on it so that should be in our notes, in the material that

 5     is certainly there.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Now you know what happened.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             Please continue, Ms. Gustafson.

10             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

11        Q.   Now, Mr. Spasojevic, on the screen now are conclusions of the

12     RS government from its 99th session held on the 28th of October, 2004,

13     and you can see that under number 1, it says that the government

14     considered and accepted the report of the commission for investigation of

15     events in and around Srebrenica between 10 and 19 July 1995.

16             And if we go to page 3, in both languages, this is part of the

17     explanation attached to the government's conclusions, the document

18     extracts an address that the RS president, Dragan Cavic gave in relation

19     to this report where he stated that the report is the beginning of a

20     difficult and probably for all of us sometimes empty road of disclosing

21     of the truth, and he goes on to talk about the importance of the

22     commission's work and the importance of continuing to walk towards the

23     truth.

24             Now, this document reflects both the fact that the government and

25     president at the time accepted this report and the historic nature of the

Page 35872

 1     report and the circumstances; right?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I'd like to tender this document.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6221, Your Honours.

 6             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And I have no further questions.

 7        Q.   I'd like to thank you very much, Mr. Spasojevic, for answering my

 8     questions so directly and concisely.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.

10             Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.  Good morning, Excellencies.

12     Good morning to all.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Spasojevic.

15        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

16        Q.   Please, while we still have this document here before us, can you

17     tell us whether you know who Marko Arsovic is?

18        A.   I don't know anyone of these gentlemen.

19        Q.   And do you know what this means?  Due to difficulties that were

20     pointed out in the first preliminary report, the government of

21     Republika Srpska dismissed the chairman of the commission,

22     Mr. Marko Arsovic and appointed Milan Bogdanic as new chairman.

23             Did you know that there was a change there?

24        A.   We heard about that, but I wasn't that interested.

25        Q.   Thank you.  However, if you didn't know him personally, did you

Page 35873

 1     know that Marko Arsovic had been a judge of the Supreme Court of Bosnia

 2     and Herzegovina for many, many years and later on in Republika Srpska?

 3        A.   I heard of that, but I never met him personally.  I don't know

 4     the man.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 30 in English.  I

 7     hope it's the same page in Serbian, this report.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  This is only four pages.  You mean the previous

 9     report, Exhibit P6220.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  I do apologise.  Thank

11     you.

12             30 in English, please.  I believe it's the same in Serbian too.

13             No, it's probably 28 in Serbian then.

14             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I believe it's page 35 in the Serbian.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you for your kindness.

16             Yes, thank you.

17             And we'll also have to move onto 36.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   As for this document, as for this report, Mr. Spasojevic, would

20     you sign that?

21        A.   No.  No, no.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now please go back to the

24     previous page in Serbian.  Just a moment, please.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 35874

 1        Q.   Please take a look at this, the second paragraph:

 2             "There were cases where, in the application, a person is

 3     registered as missing in the period of July 1995, but in evidence

 4     materials, that date refers to the period before or after July 1995."

 5             Did you know that?  Is that one of the reasons why you would not

 6     sign this document?

 7        A.   That's one of the reasons, because these documents were drafted

 8     in too amateur a way.

 9        Q.   Look at this part, there are some persons in four cases, the

10     person represented in the application are still alive.

11             Were there such cases?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now have 1D00692.

15             I'm not sure that we have a translation, since it's not there.

16     No, we don't.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You mentioned Mr. Meholjic today in answer to the Prosecutor's

19     question there.  On the 22nd of April, I think it was last year, I'm not

20     sure, but it must say somewhere, the war-time commander of the Bosnian

21     police in Srebrenica, Hakija Meholjic said at the meeting of the

22     organising board for the celebration of --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Before reading out, could you put

24     your question, some foundational question first.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

Page 35875

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Spasojevic, what were the objections about the establishment

 3     of facts surrounding Srebrenica in 1995 that you learned from

 4     Mr. Meholjic?

 5        A.   Well, it was more in a conversation that we referred to certain

 6     defects there, that there were betrayals and crimes committed within

 7     their ranks.  Along those lines.

 8        Q.   Did he tell you that also the persons who did not perish there

 9     were buried?

10        A.   Yes, he did refer to several dozen individuals who weren't killed

11     there but who were buried at the memorial centre.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very leading.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Can you enumerate the irregularities that he saw as a policeman

15     of Muslim ethnicity, a fighter for an independent Bosnia-Herzegovina,

16     concerning the facts as they were established?  Can you list them,

17     please.

18        A.   Well, it's something that I can say in generalised terms, that he

19     said that he was unhappy, that they had been sold, that they had been

20     sacrificed, that Naser Oric and all the others had fled earlier on,

21     leaving all the wretched and miserable people in the lurch.

22        Q.   And as for the establishment effects itself, what were the

23     objections he had and the criticism?

24        A.   As a policeman, he wasn't happy with the way the information was

25     processed, and he said that in ten years time this would come back to

Page 35876

 1     haunt us.  It was done in an amateurish way and he noted that.  He

 2     observed that.

 3        Q.   Can you look at this document now and say whether it reflects

 4     what you were told?

 5        A.   Yes, this was the context generally in which it was said.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  If the accused is going to use a document in

 8     B/C/S, then he can't just ask a question like that, because otherwise we

 9     have no idea what the document says or what's going on.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Absolutely correct.

11             But you are putting the document which we can't read and with a

12     leading question.  The answer so adduced has no probative value at all.

13     You are ruining the weight of your evidence, Mr. Karadzic.

14             But he has already answered the question.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Mr. Spasojevic, can I ask you to read, for instance, paragraph 4,

17     where his words are quoted.

18             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, I think we need to back up.  We don't even

19     know what this document is.  And I think as an initial step, some

20     foundation has to be laid, some questions have to be asked about that.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I think that Dr. Karadzic can

22     ask him to tell what this document is in general.  But I also think in

23     light of the objection and the fact that we can't read it, that asking

24     him to read the pertinent portion is a very useful step.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We have some foundational fact, but he failed to

Page 35877

 1     introduce this as some -- what kind of document it is.  That's the first

 2     step he should have taken.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I thought that

 4     we were familiar with the logo of the news agency by now.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you tell us, Mr. Spasojevic, who issued this?

 7        A.   The Republika Srpska news agency "Srna" did.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you read for us paragraph 4, please.

 9        A.   It was on the blood of Srebrenica that the war in BiH was brought

10     to a close.  Srebrenica was sold in order for Sarajevo to become a

11     canton.  I was in a Srebrenica delegation during the war in 1993, in

12     Sarajevo, at a meeting with Alija Izetbegovic, at which point we rejected

13     his point that Srebrenica be sacrificed in exchange for Vogosca.

14     Unfortunately, this did happen in 1995, and somebody profited from our

15     sacrifices and there was quite a lot of that at the back of the tragedy.

16        Q.   Can you read or can you tell us what paragraph 2 says?  Can you

17     summarise it for us.

18        A.   Well, they are -- they have caused us to travel to the ends of

19     the earth while those who remained there squabble over personal

20     interests.

21        Q.   And what about the buried 75 that are mentioned there?

22        A.   Those 75 persons who were buried at the memorial centre in

23     Srebrenica whilst not having been killed in Srebrenica should be reburied

24     at an adequate location close by.  And as for those who were found to be

25     alive, although their names are on the wall of those that perished at the

Page 35878

 1     memorial centre, should be stricken.

 2        Q.   And what else does he say?

 3        A.   Well, that he says that the actual truth about Srebrenica should

 4     be told because we know who did what during the war and after the war.

 5     What he meant was that the victims should not be the subject of

 6     manipulation or offence.

 7        Q.   And how does this concord with what he told you when you spoke to

 8     him?

 9        A.   When we spoke, he told me the same story although in what were

10     police terms.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted and marked for

13     identification.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Spasojevic -- just a second.

15             You said that this is what "Srna" issued.  But is this an

16     interview or -- or a news report by a journalist, or what?  What -- what

17     is it about?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first time I'm seeing

19     it.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may be of assistance.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Spasojevic, can you look at paragraph 1.  What is this about,

23     what sort of report and about which meeting?

24        A.   Well, this is some sort of organising committee that is charged

25     with marking the 11th of July, organised by the families of the victims.

Page 35879

 1     That's something that Hamdija Meholjic must have said on that occasion.

 2        Q.   In other words, it's a news report from that meeting; right?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, this is just an example.  The title of

 5     the document on e-court says it's Meholjic's statement and what we all

 6     can see is "Srna."  And we have no idea what this document is about.

 7     Whether alleged Mr. Meholjic wrote an article or statement under the

 8     title of "Srna."

 9             So you should introduce some foundation before you put the

10     question.  Not only the content.

11             Can I hear from you, Ms. Gustafson?

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I don't have anything to add.  I think my

13     objections were all along the same lines.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3143, Your Honours.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies for my inartfulness.

17     I thought it was clear that this was a news report about a meeting and I

18     wanted to save time.  At any rate, I kindly ask for your understanding in

19     this matter.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Spasojevic, you stated today that everything you did was

22     noted down in records that exist.  And where should they be?

23        A.   Well, they should be in public security centre in Bijeljina.

24        Q.   Can you tell us, how can we search for it in the archives?  Is

25     there a title that this collection of documents would have?

Page 35880

 1        A.   Well, it would be listed under the Srebrenica case.  That's how

 2     it would be called.

 3        Q.   You spoke about gathering information.  As a policeman, in order

 4     to establish facts, was it important for you to read the statements of

 5     Dragan Obrenovic and others?

 6        A.   No.

 7        Q.   While working on this case, did you come across a fact that would

 8     speak about my involvement in the activities following the fall of

 9     Srebrenica that you described?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Thank you.  At page 14, you were asked why it was that between

12     1992 and 2003, no investigations were conducted.

13             My question for you is this:  Is it necessary for the activities

14     that a certain body charged with investigation carried out

15     contemporaneously to be re-done at a later point?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   At page 12, line 20, my learned friend Ms. Gustafson said that

18     they were set free.  They were released.

19             Were they, indeed, released, and was this case closed?

20        A.   I think that they spent some 20 days in military detention.  At

21     the time, the military court was being set up, possibly there were no

22     conditions in place, and it is possible that statements were taken from

23     them and that they were expelled.

24        Q.   And would the case have been closed or would it have remained

25     open and then on the basis of that case, a trial followed?

Page 35881

 1        A.   Well, it was on the basis of that case file, on the basis of --

 2     that our documentation, the court in Belgrade conducted proceedings.

 3        Q.   The investigation material cites Dosa Todorovic as one of the

 4     victims.  Can you tell the Chamber who she is, if you know, and

 5     specifically what her ethnicity is?

 6        A.   She's a disabled woman who lives on her own, and she's a Serb.

 7     They took her money and jewellery, and I think they killed her.  I can't

 8     recall at this time.

 9        Q.   In other words, a Serb lady was robbed, and this was part of that

10     same crime; right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Yesterday at page 97, you were asked about the investigation

13     concerning those other cases, those other families.

14             Can you tell us this:  As the investigation was in course, how

15     were the perpetrators listed, as known or unknown?

16        A.   Well, as unknown.  We knew nothing of them.

17             This event was something that became public knowledge three days

18     later.

19        Q.   You mean these events --

20        A.   Yes, I learnt of those events three days later.

21        Q.   And when were the perpetrators finally identified?

22        A.   I can't set a specific time on that.  It was something that was

23     at the forefront of our minds.  This case was open, it was a crime, but I

24     can't recall.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Going back to what I asked you earlier on, the case

Page 35882

 1     involving Dosa Todorovic and Muslims.  Was it the case that the state

 2     suppressed some information or failed to do anything in that respect?

 3        A.   No, no, it was a case like any other.

 4        Q.   What sort of role could the president of the republic have played

 5     in the activities carried out by investigative and judicial bodies?

 6        A.   None.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know what became of this individual Malovic

 8     who was mentioned as a possible perpetrator?

 9        A.   He was killed in Belgrade.  I don't know which year that was, but

10     that was shortly after the events.  Apparently he was involved in heroin

11     smuggling together with another Belgrade criminal.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In connection with the events in 1992, March and

13     April, you said that you yourself saw the body of one Stevanovic.  Can

14     you tell us what his ethnicity was and whether he was a soldier or a

15     civilian?

16        A.   This was close to the building where I live.  This civilian,

17     Stevanovic, I believe he was a Serb.  I don't know.  I don't know his

18     first name.

19        Q.   Thank you.  At page 89 - that was yesterday - you were also asked

20     about victims, and probably because of the linguistic nuances, the matter

21     remained unclear.

22             Mr. Spasojevic, do you distinguish between the term "killed," as

23     in murdered, and killed as in got killed?  And if you do distinguish

24     between these terms, in what way do you do so?

25        A.   Well, murdered means the person is dead, of course.  But you have

Page 35883

 1     to establish how death came about.  And killed, of course, is the same

 2     thing.

 3             JUDGE KWON: [Microphone not activated] Yes, please continue.  Put

 4     a pause between the questions and the answers.

 5             Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   And how do we call the victims who lost their lives in combat and

 9     how do we call the victims who lost their lives because of a criminal

10     murder?  How would you call one and how would you call the other?

11        A.   Well, victims are those who get killed in armed conflict.  And we

12     also have victims of crime who were murdered.  Someone took their life.

13     And it was an act.

14             I did not add this in my statement.  Their intention was to loot

15     Ramovic, but it was unfortunate that one of them killed him because he

16     was more intoxicated than the other one.  I just don't know which one it

17     was.

18        Q.   Excuse me, I have already moved to 1992, Stevanovic, and you said

19     that --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  In your answer, we heard same

21     terminology of "victims."  Did you distinguish in B/C/S?  Victims of

22     those who get killed in armed conflict and the victims of crime?

23             We heard the same term, "victims."  But did you use different

24     terms?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is similar.  Similar.

Page 35884

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But different?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, a victim of an armed conflict

 3     was someone who lost his life, and you have a criminal act when somebody

 4     takes somebody's life.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  How do you spell a victim of an armed conflict in

 6     B/C/S?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That also means that someone's life

 8     was taken.  But in the other case, the victim's life was also taken.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The spelling is the same in -- in both cases.  You

10     use the same term?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In armed conflict, you would say a

12     victim of armed conflict.  And if it's a criminal act, a criminal

13     offence, then we talk about victims who were murdered.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you tell us about the words "ubijen," killed, and "poginuo,"

19     also killed.  Who are the persons that we say are "poginuli" and who are

20     the persons we say are "ubijeni"?

21        A.   "Ubijeni," killed, in one sense is when he and the other side

22     also used weapons.  And "poginuo" is killed -- means sporadically, by a

23     stray bullet or between two -- caught by cross-fire and so on.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday on page 90 you said that doctors examined

25     the bodies.  Was it the so-called external examination or do you know

Page 35885

 1     whether in those who were victims of conflict forensic analysis was done

 2     or autopsies?  Or were these victims considered victims of armed

 3     conflicts or victims of murder in the criminal sense?

 4        A.   We consider them to be victims of armed conflict.  And in

 5     Bijeljina we do not have an autopsy expert.  This is why only an external

 6     examination of the bodies was conducted by the doctors.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And this is described somewhere; correct?

 8        A.   Yes.  The documents exist and they should be available.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have a look at the

11     photograph, P2919.  Page 28, please.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you please look closely at the position of the arms and head.

14     And can you tell us whether these persons are alive or dead and whether

15     it is possible that they were ordered to lie down facing the pavement.

16     Please look at the arms under the head in one and the other case.

17        A.   As the first one has this --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  The latter part of this question, I think, just

20     calls for speculation.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Well, I'd like to hear the answer.

22             Can you answer the question?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The first person lying down, there

24     seems to be a pool of blood.  There's some liquid there and it seems to

25     me that it's blood.

Page 35886

 1             And as for the other two persons, at a first glance, as a layman,

 2     I perhaps would think that they are alive because they have their arms

 3     put in front of their heads.  But it's difficult to judge only on the

 4     basis of this photograph.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Do you recognise the persons and the area?  Could you

 7     tell us where this was shot?

 8        A.   Well, I'm not familiar.  It seems to be a back street.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you said that Arkan arrived with 16 men.

10     Could you tell us how many Arkan's men were killed?

11        A.   I really don't know that.  I learned this information only

12     afterwards, after the termination of the armed conflict, that there were

13     around 15 or 16 of them, but I don't know how many lost their lives.

14     That's really interesting.  Because I didn't do this.  It was a colleague

15     of mine who conducted the external examination of the bodies and so on,

16     and therefore I couldn't really tell you this.

17        Q.   All right.  Thank you.  Please tell us though, you did mention

18     something about it, but just tell us --

19             JUDGE KWON:  It's now time for me to put a question to you.

20             But putting that question, I will have to ask you whether it is

21     your case that the -- these persons are alive being ordered to lie down

22     facing the pavement.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, it's our case that we don't know.

24     And nor has it been proven that these people are deceased.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And you challenge the evidence that the lady was the

Page 35887

 1     one who we saw in another page.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  We don't stipulate to that evidence, so we put the

 3     Prosecution to their proof on all of these issues.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's move on.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Spasojevic, could you tell us, as you told us that most

 8     barricades were located around the police building, can you tell us where

 9     there were most Muslim casualties on the 31st of March and the

10     1st of April, 1992?

11        A.   I think that it was near the hospital, in the direction of

12     Zvornik.  It's one -- that was the town hospital, and that was where the

13     biggest barricade was located.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Spasojevic.  Thank you for your testimony -- thank

15     you for -- oh, excuse me.

16             Who did you do this for, all these activities that you carried

17     out and applying the law?

18        A.   I've been a policeman since 1976 and I did as I was taught to do.

19        Q.   Were there any obstructions or pressure from government organs or

20     any requests to turn a blind eye to something, to cover something up?

21        A.   No.

22        Q.   Thank you for having come here to testify and for having been a

23     good policeman.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That concludes your evidence,

25     Mr. Spasojevic.  On behalf of the Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your

Page 35888

 1     coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

 2             We'll rise all together.  We'll break for half an hour and resume

 3     at 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.32 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  First I'd like to introduce

 8     Nabilah Reza, from Australia, who is one of our legal interns who will be

 9     joining us for this session.  We've managed to get all of our interns

10     into court this week and take advantage of the absence of Mr. Sladojevic,

11     but he'll be back on Monday.

12             With respect to the next witness, Mr. President, I wanted to

13     address one issue in private session, if we can.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Could the Chamber move into private session.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 35889











11  Page 35889 redacted.  Private session.















Page 35890

 1                           [Open session]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, I only want to correct one small

 4     matter.  On the 19th of March, 2013, the -- Dr. Karadzic filed a revised

 5     92 ter notification for this witness, and it's actually the first and

 6     only 92 ter notification that we got.  It's not a revised one.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Shall we bring in the next witness.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  DRAGOMIR LJUBOJEVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Ljubojevic.  Please be seated and

16     make yourself comfortable.

17             Mr. Ljubojevic, I take it you hear me in the language you

18     understand?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do, yes.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Ljubojevic, I

21     must draw your attention to a certain Rule of Procedure and Evidence that

22     we have here at the International Tribunal.  That is, Rule 90(E).

23             Under this Rule, you may object to answering any question from

24     Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges, if you believe

25     that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.

Page 35891

 1             In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that amount

 2     to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

 3     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

 4     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you, and, as a

 5     consequence, you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

 6     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But, in

 7     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

 8     in -- compelled under such circumstances would not be used in any case

 9     that might be laid against you for any offence save and except the

10     offence of giving false testimony.

11             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Ljubojevic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15                                Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Ljubojevic.

17        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

18        Q.   I will ask you to speak slowly and so will I also have to do so

19     that everything will be recorded.  We also should make pauses between

20     question and answer so that everything would be interpreted.

21        A.   I will do my best.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show up 1D7945 in

Page 35892

 1     e-court.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you see your statement on the screen in front of you?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   Please just make slightly longer pauses between you -- providing

 6     your answers.

 7             Have you read and signed this statement?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the last page please be shown

11     to the witness so that he would identify his signature.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Is this your signature?

14        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully convey what you told

16     the Defence team?

17        A.   Yes, to my best recollection.

18        Q.   If I were to ask you the same questions, would your answers be

19     substantially the same as those given in this statement?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this statement in

23     accordance with 92 ter.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff?

25             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  No, Your Honour.

Page 35893

 1             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

 2             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3144, Your Honours.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             I will now read the summary of Mr. Dragomir Ljubojevic's

 5     statement in the English language.

 6             [In English] Dragomir Ljubojevic was born on 18th of November,

 7     1951, in Velika Obarska village, Bijeljina municipality, where he still

 8     resides.  He was the manager of the Elvako plant in Bijeljina when

 9     activities of the Muslim union members of the plant began to create

10     ethnic tensions in the entire municipality.  Until this point, when the

11     SDA and HDZ formed and openly strove for separatism in their political

12     programmes and activities, relations between different ethnic groups in

13     the municipality had been good.

14             The Muslim workers that went on strike in the Elvako plant did so

15     with purely political demands; they wanted the factory management to be

16     exclusively Muslim.  These activities were encouraged by the SDA who

17     provided food for workers in the part of the factory under blockade.

18     These activities continued to the centre of the town, where other local

19     institutions were also blockaded.  This impeded the functioning of the

20     local government, and after repeated refusal of the strikers to

21     negotiate, the MUP was forced to put down the demonstrations and lift the

22     blockade of government institutions.

23             Mr. Dragomir Ljubojevic believes that the Muslim leadership in

24     Bijeljina agitated these tensions in order to provide more fertile ground

25     for their separatist political aims.  Meanwhile, Serbs and a small number

Page 35894

 1     of Muslims carried out the obligations stipulated by law and the

 2     constitution and participated in the mobilisation of the JNA units.  The

 3     majority of Muslims, however, avoided mobilisation, and some joined the

 4     paramilitary forces in Croatia and fought against those same JNA units

 5     and the Serbs in Croatia.  The Serb population felt much anxiety and fear

 6     at these events, particularly in the context of the atrocities committed

 7     against Serbs during the Second World War.

 8             Dragomir Ljubojevic responded to mobilisation and was sent to the

 9     Brcko general sector on 3rd of May, 1992, where he was tasked with

10     lifting the blockade established by armed civilians and paramilitary

11     formations.  He was seriously wounded there and on sick-leave until

12     June the 6th, 1993.  This makes the allegation that Dragomir Ljubojevic

13     organised the alleged expulsion of Muslims in November 1992 impossible.

14             Dragomir Ljubojevic was elected president of the Bijeljina

15     Municipal Assembly.  During his duties at the municipal assembly,

16     Dragomir Ljubojevic did not come across a single decision made by the

17     Crisis Staff.  Any decisions made by the War Presidency were fully

18     transparent and published in the bulletin accessible to the public.

19             During this period, the local municipal leadership worked to

20     normalise life, displaced persons were returned, property returned to

21     them, mosques rebuilt, and refugees provided with accommodations.

22     President Karadzic insisted to Dragomir Ljubojevic that the local

23     government exert maximum care for displaced persons and refugees

24     regardless of their religion or nationality and to promote peaceful

25     co-existence of Muslims and Serbs.

Page 35895

 1             Dragomir Ljubojevic was never ordered to plan or execute any

 2     expulsion of the non-Serbs from Bijeljina municipality, nor did

 3     Dragomir Ljubojevic give such orders to any subordinates.  Those who left

 4     did so voluntarily in the hope of finding a better situation elsewhere.

 5     On the other hand, Dragomir Ljubojevic estimates that nearly 400.000

 6     expelled and deported Serbs passed through Bijeljina in the course of the

 7     war.

 8             By 1995, more than 50.000 Serb refugees were accommodated in

 9     Bijeljina from parts of BH under the control of BH army.  The

10     circumstances of the people passing through Bijeljina were very

11     desperate, as these people had by now lived through four years of war.

12             And that is a short summary.  At that moment, I do not have

13     questions for Mr. Ljubojevic.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Mr. Ljubojevic, as you have noted, your evidence in-chief in this

16     case has been admitted in writing in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now

17     you will be cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the

18     Prosecutor.

19             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Thank you, Your Honour.

22                           Cross-examination by Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff:

23        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Ljubojevic.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   Let me first thank you again for participating in an interview

Page 35896

 1     with the Prosecution on the 20th of March, 2013, that is, on Wednesday.

 2             I just want to sum up a few statements that you made during this

 3     interview.

 4             You said that you did not know that Arkan had a training camp in

 5     Badovinci and that young men were sent there for training by the SDS.

 6     That's right, that's what you said; right?

 7        A.   No.  I said that I did not know that this camp existed and that I

 8     was not aware that anyone was sending young men there for training.

 9        Q.   Yes, that's what I actually had just said, and I just wanted you

10     to confirm that you said that.  Maybe the translation was saying

11     something different.

12        A.   Possibly.

13        Q.   You also said that you got only aware of Arkan being present in

14     Bijeljina after the fighting broke out; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And in relation to Arkan's activities, you only -- you said that

17     you would only know from stories that he had a football fan club and that

18     he had been active in Croatia during the war.  That's what you said;

19     right?

20        A.   If you remember, you asked me whether before these things

21     happened in Bijeljina I had known Arkan.  I said that before the war, I

22     had heard of him and thereby knew of him as the leader of the Red Star

23     football club fans and that before that, I had no contact with him.  I

24     never encountered him, never came across him even during the Bijeljina

25     war.

Page 35897

 1        Q.   And, Mr. Ljubojevic, when I asked you about the murder of the

 2     Sarajlic family in summer 1992, you said that you heard about this

 3     incident but you would not know who did it and why the murders -- murder

 4     was committed; right?

 5        A.   Yes.  I said that everybody in the municipality of Bijeljina

 6     condemned that killing.

 7        Q.   And when you were told that Vojvoda Mirko Blagojevic claimed in

 8     a public announcement that his family -- that this family was murdered by

 9     a special police unit, you said that you would not know this, but perhaps

10     Mr. Blagojevic had more information about this than you had.  That's what

11     you said; correct?

12        A.   Yes, yes, I agree, that's what I said.

13        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, when I asked you whether you know that the Muslim

14     commander Halilovic, a member of the VRS, was expelled from Bijeljina,

15     you said that you had heard that but that you would not know the details;

16     correct?

17        A.   That's right.

18        Q.   And when I asked you whether you know that Vojkan Jokovic was

19     made responsible for this expulsion and that there was evidence before

20     this Court that he expelled non-Serbs unwilling to leave, you said that

21     you would not know that but you wouldn't exclude it either; is that

22     right?

23        A.   Yes.  But you said Vojkan Jokovic and it should be Djurkovic.

24     All the rest is correct, exactly the way I had said it.

25        Q.   In relation to Vojkan Djurkovic, you mentioned during the

Page 35898

 1     interview that he came from a village near Bijeljina and he was one of

 2     Arkan's men; correct?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Do you know him personally?

 5        A.   I would see him.

 6        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, you explained that you were seriously wounded on

 7     the 4th of May, 1992, while involved in de-blockading the hospital in

 8     Brcko and that you subsequently was treated in the Bijeljina hospital

 9     until 23rd of May and then released into house care.  That is correct,

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.  Because there wasn't enough room in hospital for longer

12     recuperation because the wounded from the Tuzla column were more urgent

13     cases than I was.

14        Q.   And in paragraph 8 of your statement, you state that from the

15     6th of June, 1993, until 1994, you were in the 2nd Semberija

16     Light Infantry Brigade.  And in the interview on Wednesday, you said that

17     Mr. Filipovic was your superior and the commander of the brigade was

18     Blagoje Gavrilovic, who was initially the commander of a JNA

19     reconnaissance group; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   As to your deployment in the VRS, you said during the interview

22     that you were on the front line in Brcko and that, depending on the

23     front-line activities, you were able to return home at night, but, of

24     course, not all nights, and that the regular shift was seven days

25     front-line duty and then seven days rest at home.  That's -- sums it up;

Page 35899

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes.  That's the way it usually was for combatants who fought in

 3     the trenches but not for the auxiliary services.  It is correct as

 4     regards the rest.

 5        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, during the interview on Wednesday, you said that

 6     you did not have a function in the SDS.  You were a member but not a

 7     functionary.  You were only on a list for deputies of the Bijeljina

 8     Assembly and in fact became a member of --

 9        A.   Assemblyman.

10        Q.   Yes.  But you became a member of the Bijeljina Assembly only by

11     the end of 1992, beginning 1993, and that at that time the Assembly

12     didn't really function; correct?

13        A.   Yes.  The Presidency carried out the duties of the Assembly.

14        Q.   And just to confirm, you only became president of the -- of

15     the -- of Bijeljina Assembly in 1996; right?

16        A.   Yes.  January 1996.

17        Q.   I will concentrate in this cross-examination on the period before

18     you were wounded.  And you said in paragraph 11 of your statement that

19     you do not know that there was a Crisis Staff in Bijeljina and that you

20     only know that there was a War Presidency.

21             And, in this context, I want to show you P02629.

22             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can this be on the screen, please.

23        Q.   And as it is coming up - and you will see it soon hopefully -

24     it's a note by the Bijeljina chief -- SJB chief Jesuric to the minister

25     of interior on the situation in Bijeljina in April 1992.  It's a bit hard

Page 35900

 1     to read the -- the B/C/S.  Therefore, I -- I read from the first page

 2     of -- of this -- of this document.

 3             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  In the English, it's the last paragraph and

 4     starting there, and then turning further to the next page.  And in the

 5     B/C/S, if you look at the -- the page 2, B/C/S page 2 -- oh, sorry,

 6     page 3.  Next page.  It's the paragraphs 2 and 3.

 7             And Mr. Jesuric refers here to the barricades on the

 8     31st of March, 1991, and then he states:

 9             "During the night and the next day, the TO, the Serbian National

10     Guard and the Serbian Volunteer Guard started removing the barricades

11     under the supervision of the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly Crisis Staff."

12             We need to move to the next page in the English.

13             And in the middle of the next paragraph, there's reference to --

14     the Bijeljina Crisis Staff is again mentioned, in relation to schools.

15        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, you were not aware of this Crisis Staff that

16     Mr. Jesuric mentions here being obviously in charge of both military and

17     civilian matters?

18        A.   No.

19        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, also most recently here in court --

20             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And I refer here, Your Honour, to P05587.

21        Q.   -- we reviewed an interview that Ms. Plavsic gave when she

22     visited Bijeljina on the 4th of April, 1992, in a delegation.  And in

23     that interview, she also makes a reference that she left that delegation

24     she came with to see -- to come to see the Crisis Staff first.

25             Mr. Ljubojevic, Ms. Plavsic is aware of a Crisis Staff in

Page 35901

 1     Bijeljina and met it, but you, who are actually active in politics in

 2     Bijeljina at the time, you were not.  How can that be?

 3        A.   It is possible there were Crisis Staffs in some municipalities.

 4     But I claim with full responsibility that in the municipality of

 5     Bijeljina there was no Crisis Staff and that the Presidency functioned

 6     throughout, in the municipality of Bijeljina.

 7             So, as is well known, the Serbs were a majority in the

 8     municipality of Bijeljina and all posts were held by Serbs, except for

 9     these few, so the Territorial Defence, the Civil Protection and the

10     Presidency were the authorities in Bijeljina.

11             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have D01585 on the screen.

12        Q.   And as it is coming up, you will see it's a handwritten document

13     by the SDS Municipal Board to the SDS Main Board dated 3rd of April,

14     1992.  Mr. Kojic, you know him and his function, right, as the president

15     of the SDS?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And Savo Kojic refers here in this short document to the decision

18     of the SAO Semberija and Majevica Crisis Staff and the Serbian National

19     Guard commander.  So he also speaks about the Crisis Staff.  He calls it

20     here the SAO Semberija and Majevica Crisis Staff.  You're not aware of

21     that either?

22        A.   Well, I think that this document is not right because the

23     SAO Semberija did not have any functions, organs, and could not have had

24     a Crisis Staff.  I don't know what the motive was of Mr. Kojic, and I

25     don't know whether this is really his letter.  I cannot comment upon

Page 35902

 1     that.

 2        Q.   And in this letter, there's also the reference to the Serbian

 3     National Guard commanders.  The Serbian National Guard commander, that

 4     was Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer; right?

 5        A.   No.  In April, he certainly wasn't commander of the Guard that

 6     was not there, this unit that was commanded by Mr. Savic.  In April, on

 7     the 3rd of April, there certainly was no Guard that was commanded by

 8     Mr. Savic.

 9        Q.   What is, to your recollection, the date when there was this Guard

10     commanded by Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer?  Where would you put it?

11        A.   It is the beginning of May.  I think the Guard was established on

12     the 2nd of May.

13        Q.   And Mauzer's Guard was a sort of SDS -- sorry.  And Mauzer's

14     Guard was sort of SDS army, was it not?

15        A.   No.  It was a unit of the Army of Republika Srpska.  And it was

16     never a party army.  It consisted of persons that came from all areas,

17     from different areas and the area of Bijeljina itself, the local

18     population.

19             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have P02855 on the screen.

20        Q.   It's a military document, Mr. Ljubojevic.  It's a report of the

21     1st Krajina Corps Command to the VRS Main Staff dated the 28th of July,

22     1992, about paramilitary formations.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  And -- and we need page 5 in both languages.

24        Q.   And when you look in the middle, in the middle of the document,

25     there is a description of the Serbian National Guard in Bijeljina, and it

Page 35903

 1     says here:

 2             "The Serbian National Guard in Bijeljina has formally joined the

 3     so-called special brigade.  The Serbian National Guard was formed by the

 4     Bijeljina SDS, and the Presidency of the Bijeljina Municipality Assembly

 5     decided that this would be the army of Bijeljina which would defend

 6     Bijeljina should it be attacked, and appointed self-styled

 7     Major Ljubisa Savic, Mauzer, as the [sic] commander."

 8             Mr. Ljubojevic, that would be a correct description by

 9     Colonel Tolimir?

10        A.   I think that there are many mistakes there and that

11     Colonel Tolimir was misinformed.

12             The unit had not been established by the SDS.  That is the first

13     mistake.  This was a unit that had been established by the staff of the

14     Territorial Defence.  And that it was the municipality of Bijeljina that

15     stood behind this, that is correct.  And it is correct that Ljubisa Savic

16     was the first commander, yes, that is correct.

17        Q.   During the interview with me, you said that Mauzer was integrated

18     in the VRS, Mauzer and the Guards were integrated in the VRS and a

19     commander of an elite unit --

20        A.   Immediately upon its establishment.

21        Q.   Yes.  And you said that it was an elite unit that took part in

22     offensive operations on the front line; correct?  That's --

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And you also said that Mr. Savic and his men functioned as an

25     escort to Mr. Karadzic and Mr. Krajisnik when they visited Bijeljina.

Page 35904

 1     That's what you said; correct?

 2        A.   No, that's not what I said and that was not discussed.  Who

 3     escorted Mr. Karadzic when he came, I really don't know.

 4             If they were, then that pertained to the knowledge of superior

 5     commands.  This was certainly done -- not done in an arbitrary fashion.

 6        Q.   Yesterday here in court - and, Your Honours, I refer here to

 7     T35808 - a witness stated that the Presidency of the municipality of

 8     Bijeljina appointed Blagoje Gavrilovic, Zivan Filipovic and

 9     Vasilije Andric as the corps of the command of the TO of Bijeljina in the

10     early days; correct?

11        A.   If someone who is competent and who has valid documents said

12     that, then I agree.  I am not aware of that detail about the appointment

13     and who was appointed to which particular position, but I do know that

14     the Presidency performed its function and that it was able to appoint the

15     mentioned gentlemen to some of these positions of responsibilities.

16        Q.   And the Presidency at the time, which persons were that?

17        A.   I don't know the names exactly, but I do know that it is the

18     president of the Assembly that presides and the chief of the Territorial

19     Defence, and there are other functions that were important for the normal

20     functioning of the municipality and all institutions, both in the

21     municipality and on the ground.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?  Transcript.  The witness

23     said "ex officio" and that was not recorded.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So the president of the Assembly,

25     the president of the municipal government called the president of the

Page 35905

 1     Executive Board at the time, and the other members.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:

 3        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, in paragraph 8, you describe that you went to

 4     Brcko on the 3rd of May, 1992, as a member of the TO.  And you -- during

 5     the interview, you also described that you were present on the square in

 6     Bijeljina when Mauzer addressed those present with a megaphone, and that

 7     you were in that convoy of buses moving to Brcko and that among the

 8     soldiers were Mauzer's Guard, Gavrilo's men and Vojvoda Blagojevic with

 9     his men; correct?

10        A.   They were all there and the units of the Territorial Defence,

11     they were all under the command of the Territorial Defence.

12        Q.   Are you aware that the Brcko Crisis Staff had actually asked the

13     Bijeljina authorities for help?

14        A.   I'm not aware of that.

15        Q.   I will move now onto another topic.

16             In paragraph 12 of your statement, you describe how Bijeljina was

17     a refuge for many Serbian refugees and you go into a great many details

18     of the arrival of huge numbers of Serbs from the -- throughout the period

19     1991 through 1995.

20             There had to be housing and means for this huge amount of

21     homeless Serbs, right, and --

22        A.   Yes.  Displaced persons had to be put up.  Since Bijeljina is a

23     municipality on the border, it had the ability to provide enough food

24     because we are an agricultural area and that motivated people to come to

25     Bijeljina.  When they were in Bijeljina, we had no choice because these

Page 35906

 1     unfortunate persons had to leave their homes and we had to take care of

 2     them up until that moment when they would find a better solution, to go

 3     to Serbia or to go abroad.  Many stayed in Bijeljina, and we had a

 4     situation whereby there would even be more than 50.000 persons in

 5     Bijeljina along with 60.000 local inhabitants, Serbs, and 10.000 Bosniaks

 6     who lived in the municipality of Bijeljina throughout.

 7        Q.   And room was made in homes and other means be provided by

 8     expelling Muslims.  Isn't that how it was?

 9        A.   No.  Surplus housing was taken from everyone, Serbs and Bosniaks.

10     For example, in town and in the villages that are primarily Serb

11     populated, an enormous amount of displaced persons were put up in Serb

12     homes.  So it's not correct that displaced persons were only put up in

13     Bosniak houses.  All of Semberija provided refuge to these unfortunate

14     persons.

15             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  I would like to have document P05483 be

16     brought up on the screen.

17        Q.   And as it is coming up, it is a press communication -- and we

18     only have it in English, Mr. Ljubojevic.  It's a press communication of

19     the Red Cross about the expulsion of 432 Muslims in the night of the

20     28th of August, 1994, from Bijeljina, that were forced by the Bosnian

21     Serb authorities to cross the front line into Bosnian government-held

22     territory near Tuzla, and they state here in this communication that it

23     is the eighth transport of that kind.  Most of them, women, children, the

24     elderly, and the sick.

25             "They were forcibly taken from their homes and stripped of their

Page 35907

 1     belongings, and, in addition, they had to pay a large amount of money for

 2     their transport."

 3             Mr. Ljubojevic, you must be aware of this.  It's not a single

 4     incident.  It's a pattern, is it not?

 5        A.   I think that that report is not correct.  And I'm not aware of

 6     that having happened, so I have to put a self-defeating fact to you that

 7     some representatives of the international community who were in certain

 8     areas, to the best of my knowledge, wrote dramatic reports in order to

 9     keep their own positions, the positions that they acquired by being

10     accredited somewhere.  They were partial and they were not

11     well-intentioned.

12        Q.   This pattern of expulsion that the ICRC describe here, we heard

13     from witnesses - and I want to refer here to Mr. Davidovic, Your Honours,

14     it's P02848, paragraph 70 - that this was widely known in Bijeljina that

15     this was happening, and he was a man living there.  So how could you not

16     have heard it?

17        A.   Mr. Davidovic was a policeman.  If he knew that, then it was a

18     fault of his that he failed to prevent this.  He was not an ordinary

19     citizen.  If he knew and failed to prevent it, then this is a sin that

20     should be apportioned to him.

21        Q.   Let's go briefly also back again to this -- to this

22     communication.

23             There is also a mention in this communication, a reference to

24     military-aged men being arrested and many of them forced to join work

25     units often deployed near the front line.

Page 35908

 1             Mr. Ljubojevic, such men were detained in Batkovic camp, were

 2     they not?

 3        A.   I'm not aware of these details.

 4        Q.   And while you were on the front line, were such detainees not

 5     also used at your section of the front line for deployment?

 6        A.   To the best of my knowledge, we had no need of that.  Our members

 7     were mostly farmers and workers, and they didn't find it difficult to

 8     make their lines, to maintain their defence lines, and to man them.

 9             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have P0 --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Sorry to intervene

11     Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

12             By Mr. Davidovic you meant Milorad Davidovic.

13             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour.  He described this praxis

14     in his written evidence at paragraph 70.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ljubojevic, could you expand again to me what

16     his fault was with respect to what Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff referred to?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I presume that

18     Mr. Davidovic, being a policeman, had ways and means to learn certain

19     events and to -- to prevent them.  Or to inform someone that something of

20     the sort was going on and who were those who were conducting themselves

21     dishonourably.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Where was he living at the time?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I suppose that he was in Bijeljina.

24     He is a native of Bijeljina, and I assume - I don't know - because if he

25     said that he was aware of it, then he must have been present in

Page 35909

 1     Bijeljina.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 3             Back to you Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Just to clarify one matter.

 5        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, Mr. Davidovic was in the federal SUP in Belgrade

 6     deployed and not as a police officer in Bijeljina.  So the police

 7     officers in Bijeljina should have stopped what was going on, should they

 8     not?

 9        A.   Up until the 15th of May, or through to the end of May, the

10     powers of federal organs extended to Bosnia-Herzegovina.  I don't know

11     what the date was when these federal powers ceased, but I do know that

12     the police respected what the federal organs had to say, and this was

13     true for the other organs as well.

14        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, by that time, Yugoslavia, the former Yugoslavia,

15     didn't exist anymore.  There was only Serbia and Montenegro in Yugoslavia

16     at that time, so how could they possibly intervene in Bijeljina?

17        A.   I said that he could find ways and means of officially informing

18     someone about the information he had.  It is a pity, really, that we

19     don't have a document which would say when this happened and who these

20     people were.  Then we could give comments of a more pertinent nature.

21        Q.   Mr. Ljubojevic, we just have here this ICRC communication, and

22     it's the 28th of August and they speak about obviously August 1994.

23             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Can we please have P02932 on the screen.

24        Q.   And you will see, when it comes up, it is another press

25     communication of the Red Cross about ethnic cleansing in Bijeljina, and

Page 35910

 1     it's now September 1994.  And they refer -- the ICRC refers here to more

 2     than 2.500 Muslims being cleansed from Bijeljina.

 3             So that's a huge amount of people, and so how can you not have

 4     been aware this?  And the local police.

 5        A.   Please.  The movements that occurred of the population oftentimes

 6     happened with -- in keeping with the wishes of the Muslims.  We must bear

 7     in mind that in Bijeljina at that time there were 50.000 people who had

 8     been forced to leave their homes.  The situation was complex and very

 9     sensitive.  In confined space, we had also people who had lost their

10     nearest and dearest.  We had the wounded.  Bijeljina was an area where

11     life was hard.  Even those who were locals had a hard time living in

12     Bijeljina at the time.  You have to bear in mind the fact that this was a

13     humane resettlement of people.  People wanted to move to an area where

14     they felt that they would have a better life.  Many of those people went

15     to Western countries where they remain today -- to date.  Their

16     properties remained behind.  They are still owners of the property, and

17     they can enjoy their property today.

18             It cannot be qualified the way you just did.  At that time, it

19     may have appeared this way, but today we certainly have much more

20     information that would portray to us what the events were.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript recorded only poorly

23     what the witness said.

24             Can the witness speak more slowly.  The witness said that they

25     reported to be taken elsewhere, and this wasn't recorded in the

Page 35911

 1     transcript.

 2             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Okay.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

 4             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  My last document, just one more document,

 5     and it is P03862.  And it's, again, a -- a document only in the English

 6     language.  It is a code cable from Mr. Akashi to Mr. Annan from

 7     15 September 1994.

 8             Can -- can we have the second page, please.

 9        Q.   When you look at the reference number 7, reference is made to the

10     expulsion in Bijeljina.  It's now the UN.  And there is also a reference

11     that Mr. Karadzic has stated that an investigation was initiated in the

12     role of Major Vojkan Djurkovic in this.  You -- you see that.  There is a

13     reference to Vojkan Djurkovic and that Mr. Karadzic had stated that an

14     investigation was initiated.

15             Do you know about this investigations again -- against Djurkovic?

16        A.   Specifically, no.  When I took up my duties in January of 1996,

17     there was talk that a proceedings had been initiated against

18     Mr. Djurkovic in order to establish the facts of the matter.

19        Q.   Was he ever convicted, to your knowledge?

20        A.   I don't know that.

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, my time is up.  No further

22     questions.  Thank you very much.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

24             Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Briefly, Your Excellency, just a

Page 35912

 1     number of questions.

 2                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Today, at page 56, it was suggested, it was read

 4     out from a text or a suggestion was made in the question to the effect

 5     that 420 Muslims had been driven out of Bijeljina in 1994 by the

 6     authorities.

 7             Can you tell us, what part did the authorities play in the moving

 8     out of the population, and what was their position with regard to the

 9     activities of this one Vojkan?

10        A.   The authorities in Bijeljina tried throughout that time to create

11     conditions so that people in Bijeljina could live normally.

12             As for Mr. Djurkovic's actions, the authorities did not view them

13     favourably and did not approve of this way of proceeding.

14        Q.   Thank you.  To the best of your knowledge, at the time you were

15     an assemblyman and not the president of the municipality, this view that

16     the authorities had driven these people out, would that, in your mind, be

17     correct?

18        A.   No.  That is absolutely not correct.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Did Mr.  -- was Mr. Davidovic ever a policeman in

20     Bijeljina?

21        A.   Mr. Davidovic intervened in 1990 when the workers of the Elvako

22     company went on strike.  But he was a policeman in Bijeljina for a while

23     before that.

24        Q.   When Mr. Davidovic went to work for the federal SUP, did he

25     appear in Bijeljina, Brcko and Zvornik, and, if so, in what capacity?

Page 35913

 1        A.   I didn't have an occasion to meet Mr. Davidovic in that period of

 2     time.  However, according to the information I received, his intervention

 3     in the municipality of Zvornik was well known.  At that point, he

 4     intervened against a paramilitary unit or something along those lines.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  At page 57, an allegation was made that the Muslims

 6     had some sort of compulsory work service that they had to do.  Were the

 7     Muslims under a military duty of conscription and were they forced to

 8     join the ranks of the army?

 9        A.   They were not forced.  But there was a number of Muslims who

10     voluntarily joined the ranks of -- of the Republika Srpska army.  I know

11     for a fact that in the 3rd Semberija Brigade, there was a battalion of

12     Muslims.

13        Q.   Thank you.  This compulsory work service, did it apply only to

14     the Muslims?

15        A.   No.  All those who were not fit for military service or had to

16     remain at their workplace because of the nature of the work they

17     discharged were under compulsory work service.

18        Q.   Thank you.  The Serbs or Muslims or altogether all of them who

19     were under compulsory work service, were they put up in some quarters at

20     the end of their workday?

21        A.   Well, they had the possibility of returning home after a day's

22     work, unless there were any other problems.

23        Q.   Thank you.  At page 50, you were shown that there was a -- a

24     Crisis Staff of SAO Semberija and Majevica.  Previously you were asked

25     whether the municipality, as such, had its Crisis Staff.  Did you, at any

Page 35914

 1     point, before assuming your position, come across a single document of

 2     the Crisis Staff of the municipality of Bijeljina?

 3        A.   No.  Even the document that was shown to me just now was one that

 4     I have seen for the first time here.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  At page 47, you said that you were released for --

 6     to -- for medical treatment at home because there was no room in the

 7     hospital because of the Tuzla column.

 8             What did you mean?

 9        A.   I was wounded on the 4th of May, I was seriously wounded.  And

10     then on the 15th of May, following the massacre which was committed in

11     Brcanska Malta at Tuzla, a number of these seriously wounded individuals

12     were transported to Bijeljina.  They were put up elsewhere, as well.

13     However, a large number of those who were transported to Bijeljina were

14     hospitalised there.  They were given medical treatment.  Some underwent

15     surgeries.  Others were forwarded to hospitals in Belgrade.  There were a

16     great many seriously wounded people.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And, lastly, at page 47, you were asked about the

18     departure of Mr. Halilovic who was not willing to leave.

19             Can you tell us what Mr.  Halilovic was doing in Bijeljina during

20     the war?

21        A.   Mr. Halilovic was the commander of a unit that was manned by

22     Muslims, that consisted of Muslims.  He was otherwise employed in the

23     Duhan or the tobacco company in Bijeljina.

24        Q.   Thank you.  The authorities and the high officials, deputies,

25     party members, how did they react to this forcible departure of

Page 35915

 1     Mr. Halilovic?

 2        A.   There was utter astonishment and disapproval of this act, and

 3     ways were sought to assist the man.

 4        Q.   Do you know whether some of those who were included in these

 5     transfers were ever allowed to come back at their request?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Would you have anything else to say about your knowledge of my

 8     position vis-a-vis the war and humanitarian issues, specifically the ones

 9     we've been discussing?

10        A.   Mr. President, Your Honour, distinguished Prosecution, I have to

11     say that, thanks to the fact that he headed the Serbian people, and I

12     mean President Karadzic, as an honourable man, humanist, legalist, many

13     misfortunes were averted.  It is truly a pity that, at that time, in

14     Bosnia, there wasn't another such patriot and statesman who would have

15     been his interlocutor and partner in the resolution of these complex

16     issues.  Certainly had that been the case, Bosnia would have been a much

17     more happier and prosperous state in the Balkans.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at 65 ter 01293.  Also

20     the telegrams of the United Nations dated September 1994.  I will read

21     out a few in English.  I mean, read out a few passages.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Let's see how Mr. Akashi communicated with me on this issue.  The

24     first paragraph reads:

25             "[In English] As outlined in my Z-1279 of 20th of August, 1994, I

Page 35916

 1     raised with Dr. Karadzic at our last meeting in Pale the ongoing abuses

 2     of human rights around Bijeljina.  At that time, Dr. Karadzic attributed

 3     the problem to criminals and undertook to replace the chief of police due

 4     to what he acknowledged was a very unsatisfactory situation in the area

 5     with respect to security and crime.

 6             "I have subsequently learned that the chief of police has been

 7     indeed replaced."

 8             [Interpretation] And so on.

 9             How does this tally with your knowledge of the fact that the

10     authorities were aware of the fact that this was done by criminals and

11     that the chief of police was replaced?  Not because he had done anything

12     but because he was unable to contain them or prevent them from doing what

13     they were doing.

14        A.   What was well known, for sure, was that you, as the president,

15     and the government, complete with municipal structures, always tried to

16     create a climate that would allow people to live normally.  And this was

17     an environment that was very difficult to reckon with, in terms of

18     security and politically, to find a solution for all the people in

19     Bijeljina and beyond to leave peacefully.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, your question should have stopped with

22     question mark.  The latter part is very much leading or feeding.

23             Please continue.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise for my lack

25     of skill, and, trust me, it is not deliberate.

Page 35917

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   It says here that he received information that it was -- and let

 3     me read it to you from the fourth paragraph:

 4             "[In English] Many of those who have been expelled have reported

 5     the systematic practice of forced labour in the areas from which they

 6     have arrived, as well as other severe human rights violations, including

 7     torture" --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Do we have it --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- "rape and sexual assaults" --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Probably next page.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I asked for the next page to

12     be shown.

13             Fourth paragraph, please.  This is a statement for the press

14     mentioned on the previous page by His Excellency Mr. Akashi.  And he

15     says:

16             "[In English] Many of those who have been expelled have reported

17     the systematic practice of forced labour in the areas from which they

18     have arrived, as well as other severe human rights violations, including

19     torture, rape and sexual assault, arbitrary arrest and detention, and

20     arbitrary deprivation of property."

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Is this what those who crossed over to the Muslim side told and

23     reported correct?  Was it correct?  Let me start with the last.

24             Was property seized from anyone and the ownership changed?

25        A.   No.  There was a commission which made lists of property.  They

Page 35918

 1     listed the property, and the property was assigned for use to some of the

 2     displaced persons; but after the war, it was returned to previous owners

 3     as it is only proper.

 4             I have to say that the property-related issues and the

 5     property-related problems were best resolved in Bijeljina in all of

 6     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And what is not true about this is that it's a fact

 7     that there were instances of abuse.  In addition to all these problems

 8     and a huge number of domestic population and displaced persons, Bijeljina

 9     was certainly the safest town in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any instances of torture, rape, and --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, let's move onto another topic.  I

12     doubt that this is arising from the line of cross-examination.  But

13     because in the document, I just let the first question be asked.

14             Let's move on.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, but I would argue that

16     the cross-examination raised the issue of reports that had been received

17     by the international community concerning events in Bijeljina, and if

18     those reports can be shown to have been untrue or exaggerated, it seems

19     to be within the scope of the cross.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I see no problem with it.  But the content,

21     subject matter, Mr. Karadzic just dealt with was related to a totally

22     separate matter.

23             Let's continue, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             Could we have the next page, please, from the same document.

Page 35919

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   This is a letter which the High Commissioner for Refugees wrote

 3     to me on the 5th of September.  And he says the following, that:

 4             "1300 members of minority communities in Bijeljina and Janja area

 5     have been forced to leave their homes by your authorities and expelled

 6     towards Tuzla."

 7             He says further on that the situation is similar in Banja Luka.

 8     And he continues:

 9             "[In English] [As read] The expulsions from the Bijeljina area

10     are combined with the exaction of significant sums of money reportedly by

11     a man known as Vojkan and take place in circumstances that create great

12     hardship for, and sometimes" --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

14             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             Yes, Ms. Uertz-Retzlaff.

17             Private session?

18             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  That's what I was wondering.  It is starting

19     as an UN document but now there is something else.  Mr. Reid is just

20     checking.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  I think this has been admitted separately as a

22     public exhibit.  But Mr. Reid would be better placed ...

23             JUDGE KWON:  Let me check the -- what's the exhibit number?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  I don't know the exhibit number, but I think -- if

25     we can check, I think it may have been admitted.

Page 35920

 1             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Yes, Your Honour, we just found out it's

 2     public.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  Very well.  Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] With all due respect, this is a UN

 5     document, because it's the commission, that is to say, an agency of the

 6     United Nations.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   So when it is said about the Bijeljina authorities that in this

 9     month, that is to say, in September, 1300 Muslims were expelled from

10     Bijeljina and Janja and Vojkan is mentioned in relation with that, can

11     you tell us what is true of everything that these people were told?  Was

12     that the number of people who were expelled?  Were they expelled or not?

13     Was it done by the authorities?  And was Vojkan an exponent of the

14     authorities?

15        A.   As I said in the very beginning, the authorities in Bijeljina

16     were never involved with this issue in such a way that they would strip

17     someone of his right to reside there, have property, or work.  What was a

18     major problem in Bijeljina was a lack of living space, and in such a

19     situation, many people decided to leave Bijeljina.  And a number of

20     Bosniaks left Bijeljina, but I have to say that certainly several

21     thousand local people left Bijeljina too, whole families or parts of

22     families.  So this cannot only refer to the Bosniaks.  It can be checked

23     in various records that whole families of Serbs, that is to say, the

24     domestic population, left throughout Bosnia and Herzegovina and also

25     throughout Europe.

Page 35921

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If the first two documents can be

 3     considered one and the same, 01293, the first two pages, if it's has not

 4     been admitted, then I would tender it.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honours.  The first two pages will be

 7     Exhibit D3145, and the third page is Exhibit P2087.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  D3145.  And the next --

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  And the third page is actually Exhibit P2087.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And both of them were admitted publicly.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  That's correct, Your Honour.  On the 14th of

12     January, 2011.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   The last question, Mr. Ljubojevic.

16             According to your knowledge, what was the accuracy of media

17     reports as well as the reports of the people who crossed over to the

18     other side?  Did you establish, and did you have any knowledge about the

19     degree of trust one could put in that?

20        A.   Reports were sensationalist --

21             MS. UERTZ-RETZLAFF:  Your Honour, I think that's now very

22     leading.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I forgot to --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  That's very general.

Page 35922

 1             But -- could you reformulate your question, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will try.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Having seen these allegations, the statement of Ambassador Akashi

 5     refers to what people who crossed there said.  Based on that, what can

 6     you tell us about the degree of accuracy?  How reliable was the

 7     information that those who crossed to the other side would divulge there,

 8     and how, in what way, did you assess media reports concerning events that

 9     were aware of?  How were they represented in the media?

10             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, no --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Everything was dramatised --

12             JUDGE KWON:  I don't see any improvement.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I don't see that that's a leading

14     question.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very complex.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  It could have been better if he would have stopped

17     after the first question mark.  But it's the same point basically made --

18     maybe being made two times.  But it's not leading.  He is not suggesting

19     an answer, and I think the witness is capable of answering it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I would agree with your observation.  He could

21     or should have stopped with the first question mark.  The next part is

22     sort of leading to a certain extent.

23             So could you put your question again, Mr. Karadzic.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you tell us, with regard to the events that you were familiar

Page 35923

 1     with, what was the accuracy of the reports given by people who crossed to

 2     the other side and also reports of the media?  How were the events

 3     represented in the media?

 4        A.   The media dramatised all events.  People who came, people who

 5     left, certainly told fantastical stories in order to reinforce their

 6     position there.  This is well known.  And what is most important, the

 7     story provided by representatives of international organisations always

 8     favoured the stories about the trials and tribulations of the Muslims,

 9     and as for those who arrived to Bijeljina, no one reported about their

10     problems.  We could not see that in the reports that we could see.  But

11     everything was dramatised more than was realistic.

12        Q.   Can you tell us about what did you mean about those who were

13     arriving in Bijeljina?

14        A.   Well, you see, in Bijeljina, all buildings and property have been

15     preserved.  We have a situation that some figures and some dates are

16     mentioned here when people from around Tuzla came to Bijeljina from

17     places which had been razed to the ground and their property torched.

18     That did not happen in Bijeljina.  The problem in Bijeljina throughout

19     the war was that all of the property was saved by contrast to Smoluca and

20     other places.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the names of

22     villages.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Especially those in Central Bosnia

24     that people came from where their property had been completely destroyed.

25             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat the names of

Page 35924

 1     the places.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Ljubojevic, you seem to speak a bit too fast.

 3     It is very difficult to -- for the interpreters to catch up with your

 4     speed.

 5             Could you kindly repeat all the names of municipalities or

 6     places.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, I apologise.  I

 8     always get carried away when I talk about these events and issues.

 9             In the vicinity of Tuzla, from which, in a period, the number of

10     displaced persons coming was the greatest, the following populated

11     places, Pozarnica, Sinin Han, Smoluca, Potpec, were torched and other

12     places too, especially in Central Bosnia, from which many expellees

13     arrived in Bijeljina.  And what is particularly important and what

14     discredits these reports to a degree as well is that they only discuss

15     the problems that the Muslims were facing, and they could have obtained

16     information about the state of property of those who had arrived in

17     Bijeljina and whether they had had any problems when they were leaving

18     the places in which they had resided before the war.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  Could you just tell us how would the Muslim battalion

21     react, or how did it react, when these things happened in Bijeljina where

22     their families were living, or if such things happened?

23        A.   They would surely have complained and would not have continued to

24     participate in the Army of Republika Srpska.

25        Q.   Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Ljubojevic, and thank you for

Page 35925

 1     your devoted work in the interests of the people in Bijeljina and in

 2     Semberija.

 3        A.   Thank you, Mr. President, for everything you have done for the

 4     Serbian people in Republika Srpska.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your evidence,

 6     Mr. Ljubojevic.  On behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to

 7     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I thank you all, and I wish you

 9     happy and successful work.

10                           [The witness withdrew]

11             JUDGE KWON:  Are there any matters to be raised?

12             MR. TIEGER:  One at the behest of the Registry which is simply

13     there was an issue about P6211 and whether the English transcript was the

14     correct one, that was the transcript of ten pages, and Mr. Robinson and I

15     confirmed to the Registry that it is the correct transcript.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  There are some scheduling issues.

17     Having just received the Mr. Karadzic Scheduling Order from the Appeals

18     Chamber probably we need to vacate the sitting on the 17th of April.

19             And one further issue is the -- in the week of 27th of May,

20     the -- it is scheduled that the Chamber sit from Monday to Thursday,

21     i.e., from 27th to 30th of May.  I'm wondering whether it would cause any

22     problem to the parties if the Chamber sits from Tuesday, i.e., 28th of

23     May, to Friday, 31st of May.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  That will be no problem at our end.

25             JUDGE KWON:  If could you --

Page 35926

 1             MR. TIEGER:  We have no reason to think so.  But I suppose out of

 2     an abundance of caution, we can check the schedule -- the anticipated

 3     schedule.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And, finally, yesterday the Chamber

 5     received a courtesy copy of a letter from Mr. Krstic which has been filed

 6     confidentially today.  In this letter, Mr. Krstic reiterates that he

 7     refuses to testify in this case.  Notwithstanding the position explained

 8     in his letter, the Chamber orders Mr. Krstic to appear before the Chamber

 9     at 9.00 a.m. on Monday, 25th of March, 2013, in line with the Chamber's

10     oral ruling of 13th of March, 2013.

11             The Registry is therefore instructed to advise Mr. Krstic and his

12     counsel accordingly and to inform all relevant units in order to

13     facilitate the transfer of Mr. Krstic to the Tribunal on Monday morning.

14             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President, with respect, it occurs to me this

16     may -- this type of specific information may be an additional factor that

17     bears on the request the Prosecution made earlier with respect to such

18     witnesses and that the Chamber ruled on this morning.  The fact is now

19     that Mr. Nicholls in particular will otherwise be here all weekend

20     preparing extensively for cross-examination preparation for a witness who

21     it appears will not be testifying.

22             Under those circumstances, we would ask for some dispensation so

23     that such a lavish expenditure of time does not take place and that we

24     have some latitude with the beginning of cross.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 35927

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, I don't think I understood you in full.

 5     Could you expand your last sentence:

 6             "... some dispensation so that expenditure of time does not take

 7     place and that we have some latitude with the beginning of cross."

 8             Cross of who?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Of Mr. Krstic in this case.  What I'm indicating and

10     what I have indicated before is, as the Court pointed out, the situation

11     with such witnesses it that there is indeed a plethora of information.

12     That means there is no end to the preparation which is required for such

13     witnesses especially if there no indication what the witness will be

14     testifying about and what the cross-examining counsel must focus on.  And

15     in cases where it appears that the witness will not testify at all, we

16     have lawyers who are expending lavish time preparing for something that

17     looks like won't happen.

18             Now, in this instance, I'm trying to balance the efficiency of

19     the courtroom with the efficiency of the expenditure of our resources.  I

20     would think that some level of preparation could be required so that

21     Mr. Nicholls wouldn't be starting from scratch, but if he -- if he

22     believes that he has to start immediately on the conclusion of direct

23     examination no matter what subjects were covered, then he will be working

24     around the clock to prepare for it.  If there is some latitude given, and

25     we understand that, if circumstances require, we can ask for a deferral

Page 35928

 1     which will be -- which we will receive, I think that's a much more fair

 2     approach to -- to take with respect to the use of our limited resources

 3     and our time at a point when -- when, really, many -- I think all the

 4     parties are working extremely hard and extremely long hours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  It sounds to me - I don't want to be very

 6     argumentative - but it sounds to me like this:  Since there is a

 7     possibility that Mr. Krstic will not testify, you do not see the

 8     necessity or point of preparing at this moment.

 9             So if he, indeed, testifies, then the Prosecution would request

10     for some deferral for the purpose of its preparation.

11             Am I reading correctly?

12             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.  With some clarifications on that.

13             I understood the Court's ruling this morning and I'm not trying

14     to ignore it by any means, that is, in its entirety.  I'm trying to

15     balance it in some way.  So I'm not suggesting, for example, that based

16     on what appears to be the realistic possibility that a particular witness

17     won't testify, that nothing be done whatsoever.  That would seem to be --

18     to fly directly in the face of the Court's ruling.  I'm trying to

19     accommodate the Court's concerns about time but in a fair way.

20             On the other hand, I think in situation like this, given what

21     appears to be the likelihood, it seems unfair to invest the amount of

22     time that one would if that was a more realistic and -- and conventional

23     probability.  So I'm trying to balance that by noting that, of course,

24     some preparation will take place, but if -- if it goes forward and

25     involves issues that the Prosecution needs more time to address

Page 35929

 1     because -- because, for example, Mr. Nicholls wasn't here basically

 2     around the clock, that the Court would accept that the circumstances were

 3     such that that's a fair request, and -- and provide some latitude.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  But would the position of the Defence be different

 5     from the Prosecution's?  They should prepare as well.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, in this instance, Mr. President, we are

 7     prepared and will be ready to go forward with General Krstic.  And we

 8     hope he changes his mind, and the reason is that we expect to ask him

 9     very few questions that can be very easily prepared.  On the other hand,

10     an attack on his credibility would understandably be more involved.

11             If we were told that on Monday, you know, we were going to have

12     no court and so you -- or else maybe there would be a 5 per cent chance

13     that we would have court, wouldn't it be just human to say, okay, in the

14     5 per cent -- instead of working on this 5 per cent chance, let's just

15     cancel it and we don't have to spend all of our time preparing for

16     something that is very unlikely to occur.

17             So that is what Mr. Tieger is basically saying.  I don't

18     understand why the Chamber has difficulty with that.  It is just a normal

19     request that ought to be accommodated.

20             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber made it clear that there may be

21     instances where, good cause having been shown, a delay is warranted.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  And given the expression by Mr. Krstic, which is

23     very unequivocal at this point, this is a good example of good cause, I

24     would think.

25             JUDGE KWON:  This may become all moot.  But let me consult my

Page 35930

 1     colleagues.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE MORRISON:  In a spirit of what I suspect is a mixture of

 4     comprise and playing poker rather than playing chess, if I was

 5     Mr. Nicholls, I would not spent too much of my time this weekend engaging

 6     on cross-examination.  And having heard that hint, if I were

 7     Mr. Nicholls, and things turned out differently, he could expect and

 8     should be able to expect a reasonably sympathetic hearing.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honours.  May I just -- Ms.

10     Uertz-Retzlaff reminded me, of course, that we wouldn't have enough

11     information about the end of May to -- to assess the change in schedule

12     against that.  So we -- then we -- like Mr. Robinson, we have no

13     objection to the Court's shift in the schedule.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  The schedule will be changed

15     accordingly.

16             Hearing is adjourned.

17                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.47 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 25th day of March,

19                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.