Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 36251

 1                           Thursday, 28 March 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, would the witness make the solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

 9     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

10                           WITNESS:  DOBRISLAV PLANOJEVIC

11                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Planojevic.  Please be seated and

13     make yourself comfortable.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

17     Your Excellencies.  Good morning to everyone.

18                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

19        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Planojevic.

20        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

21        Q.   As with all other witnesses speaking Serbian, I need to ask you

22     to speak slowly so as to have everything in the transcript and to pause

23     between my questions and your answers so that everything is properly

24     recorded.

25             Mr. Planojevic, did you provide a statement to my Defence team?

Page 36252

 1        A.   Yes.  I have two corrections to make though, if I may.

 2        Q.   We'll get to that.

 3        A.   Very well.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have in e-court 1D7960.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Do you see before you your statement?

 7        A.   I do.

 8        Q.   Have you read it and signed it?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Could the last page be shown to the witness.  Is this your

11     signature?

12        A.   Yes, it is.

13        Q.   You noticed that something was not reflected accurately and you

14     said you wanted to make certain corrections.

15        A.   By your leave, I would go about it immediately.

16        Q.   Which paragraph and which piece of information does it refer to?

17        A.   Item 2, page 1, the last two -- two words.  Instead of "BiH

18     government," it is actually the "council of ministers of BiH."  That is

19     the exact name.

20        Q.   Thank you.  That has been taken note of.  Tell us if there's any

21     other substantive fact that needs to be corrected.

22        A.   Item 25, the last sentence where it reads that the Zelimir family

23     had their car stolen.  Actually, the person in question is Par Zelimir

24     rather than a couple of people by the name of Zelimir.

25        Q.   So you're saying that his first name is Par, last name Zelimir?

Page 36253

 1        A.   Yes.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  First name Zelimir,

 3     last name Par.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did you notice anything else?

 6        A.   I did not.

 7        Q.   I seem to have sped up.  I asked you if there was anything else.

 8     It isn't your fault.  It is entirely mine.  In any case, you said that

 9     there were no other corrections to be made.

10        A.   Yes, I said that there were no other corrections.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Taking into account the two corrections, otherwise

12     does the statement accurately reflect what you said?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions today in the

15     courtroom, would your answers be basically the same?

16        A.   Yes.  Perhaps I could add certain clarifications to those answers

17     previously provided.

18        Q.   Thank you.  I hope we will have that opportunity.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this statement be admitted

20     under 92 ter.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no associated exhibits.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Sutherland?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit his Rule 92 ter statement.

Page 36254

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3197, Your Honours.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would like to read

 4     out the summary of Mr. Dobrislav Planojevic's statement in the English

 5     language.

 6             [In English]  Dobrislav Planojevic was born on

 7     22nd of August, 1955, in Zakomo, Rogatica municipality.  He was a

 8     professional police officer.  He entered the service in 1973.

 9     Mr. Planojevic held various positions until he became chief of crime

10     prevention and detection administration in February 1985, and chief of

11     the SJB Novo Sarajevo in September 1987.

12             From early June 1991 to April the 4th, 1992, he was the commander

13     of the police station in Marin Dvor Centar municipality of Sarajevo.  On

14     19th of April, 1992, he was appointed assistant minister for crime

15     prevention and detection until the second half of July 1992.  In

16     September 1992, Mr. Planojevic joined the RS state security and worked as

17     an inspector until 1st of July, 1994, when he became chief of State

18     Security Service for the region of Sarajevo.

19             Regarding the distribution of weapons to the reserve police, on

20     18th of September, 1991, Mr. Dobrislav Planojevic was informed that

21     around 90 per cent of the weapons went to the Muslims, including not only

22     the reserve policemen but also the new Muslim men who were enlisted.  He

23     checked the list of the supposed reserve policemen and found the names of

24     32 criminals, namely, men with prior convictions.  Around

25     4th of April, 1992, shooting began in the city.  The Green Berets

Page 36255

 1     attacked their police station and some of the Serbs' lives were in

 2     danger.  For example, Pero Petrovic, a policeman of Serbian ethnicity,

 3     was killed at the Novo Sarajevo station, and another, Lazar Bojanic, was

 4     beaten up.

 5             Dobrislav Planojevic was aware that there was agreement to divide

 6     the MUP according to which the Serbian personnel were supposed to be

 7     accommodated at the high school of internal affairs in Vrace.  When they

 8     crossed the bridge over the Miljacka on their way to Vrace, they noticed

 9     all the armed men, both policemen and civilians along the road.  They

10     were stopped but still passed.  Eventually, they arrived at the local

11     commune building in Vrace.

12             In Vrace, the Muslims continuously fired at them from small-arms

13     and artillery weapons.  In early June 1992, the ministry was relocated to

14     Kalovita Brda, Pale, and Kosuta hotel on Jahorina mountain.

15             Regarding to the MUP, RS MUP, they had five CSBs:  Sarajevo,

16     Banja Luka, Doboj, Trebinje, and Bijeljina.  However, they encountered

17     numerous problems.  One was that the shortage of professional staff.

18     Another problem was that the deployment of its personnel on the front

19     lines, and during which many policemen were killed.  Furthermore, because

20     of the ongoing combat investigating crimes were very difficult -- was

21     very difficulty.  For example, two corps of the BH army attacked the

22     Sarajevo-Romanija Corps of the VRS around Sarajevo, a vast combat

23     operation zone.  The Sarajevo-Romanija Corps were outnumbered by the BH

24     army at the rate of five soldiers to one.

25             At the outbreak of the conflict, there was widespread plunder.

Page 36256

 1     Criminal groups appeared everywhere.  As for war crimes,

 2     Dobrislav Planojevic never received any written report about it.  The

 3     only possible related incidence he knew was in Lukavica, where two

 4     Muslims were killed, after which he filed a criminal report and

 5     prosecuted the perpetrators.  Dobrislav Planojevic insisted on fighting

 6     crime, by taking all appropriate steps, with maximum efforts on all

 7     occasions.  Mr. Dobrislav Planojevic said he met with President Karadzic

 8     several times during the armed conflict.  Each time the president

 9     insisted that the law had to be observed and gave them support for their

10     work.

11             And that is the summary, and I don't have additional questions

12     for Mr. Planojevic at that moment.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

14             Mr. Planojevic, as you may have noted, your evidence in-chief in

15     this case has been admitted in writing; that is, through your written

16     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.

17             Now you'll be cross-examined by the representative of the

18     Office of the Prosecutor, but before doing so, I find it helpful if I

19     give this advice to you:  I'd like to draw your attention to a certain

20     Rule that we have here at the international Tribunal; that is,

21     Rule 90 (E) of Rules of Procedure and Evidence.  Under this Rule, you may

22     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or

23     even from the Judges, if you believe that your answer might incriminate

24     you in a criminal offence.

25             In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that would

Page 36257

 1     amount to admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something

 2     that provides evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

 3     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and, as a

 4     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

 5     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

 6     that situation, the Tribunal would -- would ensure that such -- your

 7     testimony compelled in such circumstances would not be used in any case

 8     that might be laid against you for any offence, save and except the

 9     offence of giving false testimony.

10             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Planojevic?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Good morning.

15                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

16        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, before we begin, I would like to advise you of

17     three matters.

18             First, the Court asks us to be particularly concise during the

19     cross-examination because we have very limited time.  And to that end, I

20     wish to focus on a number of issues, and I would ask you to respond to my

21     questions on these topics in the most concise possible way.

22        A.   I understand that.

23        Q.   Secondly, I note from your interview in 2004 that you had with

24     representatives of the Office of the Prosecutor and also in your

25     testimony in 2010 in the Stanisic/Zupljanin trial that you tend to speak

Page 36258

 1     very quickly.  And I would kindly ask you to try to speak at a slower

 2     pace so that everything you say is captured on the transcript so we don't

 3     constantly have to have interruptions to get you to repeat your answers.

 4        A.   I understood.

 5        Q.   And thirdly, as you know, everything we say has to be translated

 6     into a number of languages and therefore if you can -- if it's possible

 7     for you to follow the cursor on the screen in front of you, and when it

 8     comes -- when it stops after the letter A, then you can begin your

 9     answer.  And when you finished your hopefully concise answer, if I'm not

10     immediately asking you a question, it's not because I want you to

11     continue elaborating on your answer, it's because I'm waiting for the

12     interpretation to be completed.

13        A.   Clear.

14        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Planojevic.

15             The government's priority was to ensure war crimes against Serbs

16     were documented and criminally investigated by the RS MUP, wasn't it?

17        A.   The priority was to document all crimes, at least at the place I

18     was.

19        Q.   Well, I -- we can go through a few documents now, but -- but your

20     superior, Mico Stanisic, the minister of the RS MUP, ordered his CSB

21     chiefs to include in their daily report, information on their activities

22     in the "collection of information and documents on war crimes against the

23     Serbs."

24             And which included "conducting an on-site investigation with the

25     entire team in all cases of crimes against the Serbs."

Page 36259

 1             He issued that order on the 16th of May, 1992.  Do you recall

 2     that?

 3        A.   To tell you the truth, I don't recall that order.

 4        Q.   That's Exhibit P02715 [Realtime transcript read

 5     in error "P20715"].

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Could you give us the exhibit number again.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  P02715.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Where?  In our case?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit number should have four digits.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  P02715.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, yes.  Not 2-0, "02715," yes.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, do you see here Mr. Stanisic is saying to collect

15     documents on the crimes against the Serbian population?

16        A.   Yes, I can see the document now.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have Exhibit D00410, please.

18        Q.   These are minutes of the government session held on the

19     24th of May, 1992, where the government asks the MUP to prepare as soon

20     as possible for the use of the government:

21             "Complete and exhaustive information on the security situation

22     and the state of public order and peace in the Serb Republic of

23     Bosnia-Herzegovina."

24             And the following day -- and this is 65 ter number 18388.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If that could be brought up on the screen,

Page 36260

 1     please.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I kindly ask to be told

 3     exactly where that task is cited?  I see the Elektroprivreda company here

 4     and nothing on security.  Is it perhaps on the next page?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we see here down at the bottom of the page in

 7     English, it is under agenda item 2 and it says:

 8             "Special attention should be paid to issues of crime, protection

 9     of state and personal property of Serb people."

10             I see the B/C/S document is a -- is a different document.

11             JUDGE KWON:  It has been changed.

12             Do you like to see it again, Mr. Karadzic, or is it okay to

13     proceed?

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like the witness to see it

15     because the question was put to him.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Can you go back to the previous

17     document.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That is his page 2, which is ERN

19     number 326.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And in page 2 of this document.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Probably next page.  Yes.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Planojevic, I appreciate that you weren't at this

24     government session, therefore, I want to show you the next -- the

25     document that was issued the next day which did go to the RS MUP, and

Page 36261

 1     that's 65 ter number 18388, where Branko Djeric requests the minister of

 2     internal affairs to "gather information and deliver a report to the

 3     government on the security of people and property in the territory of the

 4     Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina."

 5             And, here, he says specifically in relation to -- specifically in

 6     relation to facts about vehicles from the TAS Sarajevo car factory

 7     compound in Vogosca and oil in Ilidza.

 8             Now this letter to the RS MUP doesn't make any specific request

 9     for information concerning violations of human rights or international

10     humanity law.  But acting on this request, Mr. Stanisic sent to five --

11     the five CSBs some instructions.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And before we leave this document, if we could

13     just go to the second page in the English.  Yeah, we can see it is signed

14     by Mr. Djeric.

15        Q.   On the 26th of May, if we could go to 65 ter number 10834,

16     Mr. Stanisic, on the instructions of the -- on -- sends instructions on

17     the compilation of data for a report and as per the government's request,

18     he asks for specific information on the theft of vehicles from TAS an oil

19     from Ilidza, but in addition he requests that information be provided on

20     serious crimes committed against Serbs in territories controlled by the

21     "MUP of the former SRBiH."

22             So, again, there's emphasise on crimes committed against the

23     Serbs in documents that are coming from the MUP.

24        A.   What is your question?

25        Q.   Well, we can see here, I've shown you a couple of examples, I can

Page 36262

 1     take you to one more example, and that is Exhibit P02759 --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Witness asked what the question was.

 3     Could you tell the witness what the question was.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour.  My question is we can see

 5     here that the RS MUP are concentrating on wanting information to be

 6     provided about serious crimes committed against the Serbs.

 7        Q.   Do you agree with that?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I would kindly ask that the

 9     witness be shown that as well.  It is not on the page we are looking at.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could go to the following page.

11             And, again, the following page in English.  And it's under the

12     note at the bottom of the page.

13        Q.   Do you see that there, Mr. Planojevic?

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   So we can see that there is an emphasis on crimes committed

16     against the Serbs.  Do you agree?

17        A.   Yes.  But if I may provide an explanation of the reasons for

18     that.

19        Q.   Yes.

20        A.   Up until that period, we had been receiving numerous reports from

21     the ground regarding crimes committed against Serbs, particularly in

22     Podrinje.  And since we did not have any communications at all, certain

23     inspectors would come to Pale personally in order to seek suggestions and

24     guide-lines on how to act and whether they could receive any sort of

25     assistance, given that they were understaffed in terms of professional

Page 36263

 1     personnel.

 2        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, sorry --

 3        A.   I believe that that prompted this dispatch.  And if I may add one

 4     thing.

 5             If you look at some documents that I drafted before this one,

 6     let's say, one from early June 1992, in that document, I issued an

 7     instruction to combat all forms of crime, including war crimes, crimes

 8     against civilians, POWs, et cetera, et cetera.

 9             So it appears that these two things are contradictory but if I

10     may give you an additional explanation --

11        Q.   No, Mr. Planojevic, I want to focus on this.

12             You mentioned your document that was dated in early June.  This

13     document here is dated the 26th of May, so this is before your document

14     is issued.

15             Now, wouldn't you -- the -- the head of the police should be

16     requesting that information be provided about all serious crimes

17     committed against all ethnicities, not just Serb -- persons of Serb

18     ethnicities, shouldn't he?

19        A.   Well, if you are referring to me, this is how I acted.

20        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, if we can see Exhibit P02759 --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Is it your case that this document

22     is limiting the reports to Serb victims, cases where there are Serb

23     victims?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So your base is this note?  The last part, note.

Page 36264

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  It says it is also necessary to list the cases of

 3     serious crimes committed against the Serbs.  But if we see the first

 4     page, it's not limiting to the Serb victims.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The emphasise -- sorry, Your Honour.  The case

 6     is -- our case is they're putting emphasis on crimes being committed

 7     against Serb victims.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.  Please proceed.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could we have Exhibit 202759, please.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Is this going to be tendered?

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  Yes.  May I tender this

12     document?

13             JUDGE KWON:  How about the previous one, Djeric document.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  I will be discussing the TAS cars later,

15     but I seek to have that admitted as well.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  I note that she didn't ask a single question about

17     that document [Overlapping speakers] ...

18             JUDGE KWON:  No, she showed that and asked

19     the [overlapping speakers] she showed that in lump sum and asked

20     questions all together.  I take it you have no objection.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Not really, no.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We admit them both.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, 65 ter number 18388 will be

24     Exhibit P6239 and 10834 will be Exhibit P6240.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 36265

 1        Q.   Now this is in response to Stanisic's 26 May 1992 order and this

 2     is from the CSB Banja Luka on the 12th of June.  And the report includes

 3     information on crimes committed against the Serbian civilian population.

 4     So this is the information that's coming back to the ministry.

 5             Now, you mentioned your dispatch a moment ago of the 5 of June,

 6     and for the parties, that's Exhibit D01527.  I don't intend to bring it

 7     up.

 8             You instructed the CSBs to pay attention to the discovering of

 9     the perpetrators of war crimes.  And you -- you didn't limit it to -- to

10     war crimes against Serbs, nor did it expressly include such crimes

11     committed against non-Serbs either.  But the SJBs were interpreting this

12     instruction as including crimes committed against the non-Serbs [sic],

13     and in 1992 in their daily reports they reported against -- on war crimes

14     committed only against the Serbs.  An example of that is Exhibit D01616.

15     That's evidence in this case.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry.  In the transcript it says that I

17     said "the SJBs were interpreting this instruction as including crimes

18     against the non-Serbs."  I in fact said, or, if I misspoke, I meant to

19     say "including crimes against Serbs, and in 1992 in the daily reports

20     they reported this."

21             Mr. Planojevic, on 17th of June, 1992, the Presidency instructed

22     the government to draft a decision on the establishment of a state

23     documentation centre which will gather all genuine documents on crimes

24     committed against the Serbian people during this war.  Do you recall that

25     instruction?  And for the parties and the Chamber, that's Exhibit D00415.

Page 36266

 1             Do you recall that?

 2        A.   I don't recall.  I must explain to you that written

 3     communications were very often non-existent between me who was based in

 4     Vrace, and the remaining part of the ministry based in Pale.

 5     Cedo Kljajic and I, as operational heads of department, were based in one

 6     location, and due to that, it happens that some of the documents I have

 7     never seen before.

 8             Now, as for the fact that the minister gave me a free hand to

 9     deliver his dispatches as I felt suitable and to act accordingly, because

10     I was the most highly trained professional in that respect, we started

11     with four or five operatives initially without any communication devices,

12     and you must bear that in mind --

13        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, if I can interrupt you.  We will get onto

14     communications in a moment.

15             But, for now I'm concentrating on what -- what information is

16     coming out from the government.  And you've just said that you don't

17     remember seeing this 17 June 1992 instruction from the RS Presidency.

18             Do you recall that in July 1992 the Presidency appointed members

19     of the commission for investigating war crimes committed against the

20     Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina?  And for the parties that's

21     Exhibit D00444.  Do you recall that?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Just before you answer, yes, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In order to avoid any confusion, it

24     was said that that was a commission for the investigation of crimes or

25     the documentation centre referred to earlier.

Page 36267

 1             Can we please make it clear what the question put to the witness

 2     pertained to?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, there's two different things.  On the

 5     17th of June the RS Presidency instructed the government to draft a

 6     decision on establishing a state documentation centre which will gather

 7     all genuine documents on crimes committed against the Serbian people.  A

 8     month later, in July -- or in the month of July, the RS Presidency

 9     appointed members of the commission for investigating war crimes

10     committed against the Serbian people in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Do you

11     remember that commission being set up and members being appointed to it?

12     It just requires a yes or a no answer.

13        A.   I remember a commission where a certain lady named Gordana was

14     appointed.

15             Anyway, there was a commission, but I don't know what was its

16     proper name.  I think it was called the commission for investigating war

17     crimes.  One of the member's last names was Govedarica.

18        Q.   In its report for April to December period the RS MUP reported:

19             "The focus of the operative work in CSBs and SJBs was on

20     detection, documenting and reporting members of the enemy army who had

21     committed acts of genocide against the Serbian people, torched or

22     destroyed immovable property, cultural and religious monuments and other

23     assets."

24             And that's Exhibit P02761.  Again, Mr. Planojevic, we can see

25     there is an emphasis on crimes being committed against the Serbian

Page 36268

 1     people.  That was the focus of the operative work in the CSBs and SJBs

 2     according to the report, the MUP report, for the period April to

 3     December 1992.

 4        A.   Is it possible for me to see these documents on the monitor?

 5        Q.   Yes.  P02761.  P02761.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I won't be a moment.

 7             Your Honour, I'll come back to that.  I'll re-call this document

 8     up and I'll come back to that.

 9        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, I want to ask you a few questions now in relation

10     to the Republika Srpska being interested in investigating the car thefts

11     and that's the Golfs from TAS.  Prompted by the government - we saw the

12     24th of May, 1992, order earlier - Stanisic expended considerable

13     resources to solve the problems of vehicle thefts, didn't he?  You said

14     that the theft of cars from the TAS factory was being tackled very --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, Ms. Sutherland.

16             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Ms. Sutherland has been having a habit of putting

18     a question to the witness and then not giving him any chance to answer

19     it.  So she just asked a question, can she please wait, let him answer.

20     Or if she wasn't serious about asking a question, don't ask the question,

21     ask some other question.  But you can't put questions and not give the

22     witness a chance to answer them.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was simply taking the witness to

24     something that he said which was exactly on the point of the first

25     sentence.

Page 36269

 1             JUDGE KWON:  But it -- it -- it's easier not only for the witness

 2     but also for the Chamber if you break down the -- your questions.

 3             Please proceed Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   So, Mr. Planojevic, you said that the theft of cars from the TAS

 6     factory was being tackled very seriously, didn't you?  You said that in

 7     the Stanisic trial.  And that's at transcript page 16432.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   In fact, one of your closest associates in the crime prevention

10     department testified that operation TAS continued for a number of years

11     and implemented investigative measures in the entire territory of the

12     Republika Srpska as well as Serbia and Montenegro and could not name any

13     comparable investigations in its -- in the magnitude that -- of -- of the

14     efforts that were expended into solving this -- this vehicle problem.

15     And that was Mr. Macar at transcript page 22929 to 22930.  You would

16     agree with that, wouldn't you?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  What trial was that given in?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Stanisic/Zupljanin trial.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Would you like me to provide a

20     comment and an explanation regarding this matter?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Do you agree with what I just said, that -- would you -- would

23     you agree with what Mr. Macar said?

24        A.   Well, I'm not quite sure what you said.  I wasn't able to follow

25     you.

Page 36270

 1             You wanted to say that the issue of the Golfs was not seriously

 2     investigated.

 3        Q.   No.  That it was very seriously investigated.  In fact, such

 4     considerable resources were put into it that -- that there was no other

 5     comparable investigations of that magnitude.

 6             Do you agree with that?

 7        A.   I have to explain to you that I obtained a diskette with chassis

 8     and engine numbers because quite a few -- a large number of those cars

 9     were already in Belgrade.  Whenever such a vehicle arrived at the border

10     crossing they were confiscated.  After I had obtained this diskette I

11     went to have a meeting with the most responsible vice-president of the

12     executive committee and the president of the assembly and the army

13     commander.  The chief had already been shot dead by a local criminal

14     which means that the local police station was virtually non-operational.

15             A major by the name of Skipina appeared because we had the

16     commander in that meeting, and he reported the fact that the crime called

17     Pina [phoen] had taken some 20 golf vehicles from the TAS compound.

18             So we were unable even to stop that.

19        Q.   I think your answer was unresponsive to my question.  I put to

20     you that the most considerable resources were put into this investigation

21     and -- and according to Mr. Macar, there was no other comparable

22     investigation of that magnitude.  And I asked you whether you agreed with

23     that.  Do you agree?

24        A.   I wouldn't agree.

25        Q.   I want to turn onto a different topic now, Mr. Planojevic.

Page 36271

 1             You said in your statement you've said earlier that there were no

 2     written -- there were no written documents at all, there was a

 3     communication breakdown, there was no way to know whether anyone received

 4     a dispatch that was sent, and, if so, who received it, and that you were

 5     not receiving reports either.

 6             The CSB were not acting in isolation.  The -- Mico Stanisic

 7     directed the CSBs to send daily reports - and that's Exhibit P02758 -

 8     and the CSBs were regularly submitting such reports.  You know, don't

 9     you, that the RS MUP daily bulletins derived from information that are

10     submitted by the CSBs and the SJBs?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   We have an exhibit in this case, Exhibit P02760, which is the MUP

13     performance report for the period April to June 1992, and in that report,

14     it notes that nearly 60 issues of the bulletin of daily events were

15     published as a source of information for senior officials, mostly

16     ministers and the prime minister.

17             So it can be gleaned from this report that the CSBs were

18     reporting to the RS MUP and their information was being contained in the

19     bulletins, no?

20        A.   I think that is correct.

21        Q.   And also in relation to the communication breakdown that you

22     refer to, one of the first measures as -- as minister, Stanisic addressed

23     the task of developing the RS MUP communications system by asking an

24     experienced professional Serb policeman, Dragan Kezunovic, to accept the

25     position of communications chief in April 1992.  Do you -- you're aware

Page 36272

 1     of that, aren't you, that he appointed Mr. Kezunovic to the position of

 2     communications chief?

 3        A.   Kezunovic, yes.  He was appointed, and he was based in Vrace as

 4     well.  Now I remember.  He spent most of his time there.

 5        Q.   And the Trial Chamber has heard evidence that in the beginning

 6     the RS MUP headquarters had multiple means to communicate with its

 7     subordinate organs, including telephones, facsimile machines, short-wave

 8     and ultra short-wave radios and teleprinters.  And this is from Exhibit

 9     P02743, pages 20 and 26.  This is from Mr. Kezunovic's evidence.  And he

10     also provided -- yes, from his statement.  He also provided evidence that

11     when no other means were available, messages were delivered by human

12     couriers, and I think -- and that's at page 21, and I think that you

13     referred to that earlier when you said that you sent something to the

14     field, did you not?

15        A.   Yes.  Very often communications were down so when there was

16     something urgent to dispatch, couriers would be employed.

17        Q.   And contrary to your statement that there was no communications

18     between the RS MUP and the CSBs and their subordinate SJBs, we have

19     evidence in this case - and this is P02761 - this MUP report that we were

20     going to look at a moment ago which says that the RS MUP headquarters

21     sent out 2.969 open dispatches and 1.300 coded dispatches, and during the

22     same period it received 2.802 open dispatches and 1.601 coded dispatches,

23     and, in addition, 9.585 short-wave radio connections were established

24     during this period.

25             So this information is -- is -- is contrary to what you say in

Page 36273

 1     your statement that there was no communications and no documents, isn't

 2     it?

 3        A.   This is not contradictory to my own statement.  There was

 4     communication between areas where there was no combat, where there was

 5     peace.  However, where we needed the communications to function the most,

 6     it didn't.

 7             As far as radio connections were concerned, that could not be

 8     treated as a functional communications system.  I believe you understand

 9     what I'm saying.  When I say "functional," I mean functioning for the

10     purpose of the police work.

11        Q.   Just while we have this document on the screen, if I can take you

12     back to the page that I said that I would before.  It's on e-court

13     page 21 in the B/C/S in the middle of the page.  And this was in relation

14     to the focus of the operative work in CSBs and SJBs was on detection,

15     documenting and reporting members of the enemy army who had committed

16     acts of genocide against the Serbian people, et cetera.

17             Do you see that there in the middle of the page?

18        A.   The third paragraph; right?

19             Yes, I can see that now.

20        Q.   Thank you.  So returning to the issue of communications and

21     reports, you said that you didn't receive any reports.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 24862, please.

23        Q.   And I think you, in fact, say in your statement at

24     paragraph 20 -- you say in your statement that you weren't receiving

25     reports.  This is a report from Mr. Milomir Orasanin and

Page 36274

 1     Dragisa Borovcanin dated the 30th of May, 1992, reporting on their work

 2     of Vogosca and Ilijas SJBs.  Do you not recall receiving this report?

 3        A.   I believe that I sent Orasanin there in order to inspect the

 4     situation after I'd been there at the beginning of June.  I would have to

 5     read the report in order to jog my memory.

 6        Q.   Yes.  In paragraph 20 you say, "We tried to sent

 7     inspections [sic] to certain places."  You actually mention Milomir

 8     Orasanin in that paragraph.  You say:

 9             "But as often as not, the people we sent to do this took

10     advantage of the opportunity and simply travelled on and left the

11     country."

12             So we see here a report dated the 30th of May on their visit to

13     the Vogosca and Ilijas SJBs.  Now do you remember receiving this report?

14        A.   I believe so.  I said that I had sent Orasanin to that area.  I

15     would have to read the report to see what's in it.

16        Q.   Can you see there that they're reviewing the work?

17        A.   I'm reading, if I may.

18             I started a story about Vogosca, and I told you that it didn't

19     function because of the attempted murder of the chief of the police

20     there.  There was no crime investigation police at the time --

21        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, if I can interrupt you.  I -- I don't want do get

22     into the detail.  My question was simply you say in your statement that

23     you did not receive reports.  I'm showing you a report that's dated the

24     30th of May when you were assistant minister, and I'm saying:  Do you now

25     recall receiving this report?  And, if not, we can move on to another

Page 36275

 1     one.

 2        A.   I said that I had probably received it because I sent a man into

 3     the area.  I didn't say that I had not received this report.  I just

 4     wanted to read it, to remind myself of its contents.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could tender that document, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6241, Your Honours.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have on the screen Exhibit D01436,

 9     please.

10        Q.   Again, this is a report dated the 17th of June, 1992, on

11     inspection conducted and the situation found at SJB Brcko, SJB Zvornik

12     and partially the situation at SJB Bijeljina.  And it refers to work

13     conducted between the 29th of May and the 12th of June, 1992, by -- by

14     two employees of the RS MUP, Dragomir Andan and Danilo Vukovic.

15             So do you recall receiving this report?

16        A.   I believe that I'm reading this for the first time.  I don't

17     think I received this report.

18        Q.   You were in the department on the 17th of June?

19        A.   Yes, yes, I was working at that time.

20        Q.   I want to turn now to a -- to another topic.  You testified that

21     you knew a person now deceased called Dusko Malovic who was the commander

22     of a unit of some 20 to 30 men.  You testified in the Stanisic/Zupljanin

23     trial about that at transcript page 16445.  Do you recall that?  You were

24     shown a list of --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 36276

 1        Q.   -- special police platoon employees who performed their duties

 2     during October 1992 and were paid their salary for the month in advance.

 3     And that's 65 ter number 24849.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could call that onto the screen, please.

 5        Q.   Now you testified in the Stanisic Zupljanin trial at transcript

 6     page 16455 that you knew six persons in addition to Malovic as being part

 7     of the special police platoon.  And that was number -- no, besides number

 8     1, Dusko Malovic; number 2, Boban Kezunovic; number 5, Nenad Stuparusic;

 9     number 10, Rajko Paunic; number 11, Danko Arbinja; number 12,

10     Milenko Acimovic; number 14, Zoran Jolovic.  And you also said that you

11     knew number 27, Predrag Bartula, that he was a man who trained kick-box

12     but you never saw him as part of your unit.

13             Now, when you were interviewed in 2004, you said that this unit

14     provided protection to the minister, Mico Stanisic, and then during

15     proofing just before you testified, you said that except for a couple of

16     minor errors the rest of the transcript was accurate.  You then met with

17     the Stanisic Defence team without an OTP representative being present and

18     then you recanted about what said about the unit in terms of security and

19     protection for the minister.  You said that it was incorrect and that

20     this unit only provided security for Stanisic on one occasion in July on

21     a trip to and from Belgrade.  Do you recall that, what I've just put to

22     you?

23        A.   I did not hear the last part of the your question.

24        Q.   Well, actually, just reviewing the transcript, first of all, I

25     read out to you the names of the people that you recalled as being part

Page 36277

 1     of the special police platoon, and I read out those six names.  You

 2     remember saying that in the Stanisic Zupljanin trial, don't you?

 3        A.   I said that I knew those people but not from the unit.  I knew

 4     that they were unit members, and I said about that man, Bartula, that I

 5     was never close to them.  So this is true.  I knew most of those men by

 6     their nicknames.

 7        Q.   You said that they were part of the special police platoon.  And

 8     this is transcript page 16455.

 9        A.   If that's what I said, then that's what I said.  And then what?

10        Q.   And then I just put to you that you were interviewed -- when you

11     were interviewed you said that this unit had provided protection.

12     However, you actually went back on that issue after you had -- after --

13     when you were interviewed in 2004 and you went back on that issue in 2010

14     just before you testified.

15             Now that's right, isn't it, what I just put to you, those facts?

16        A.   Partly.  During my proofing session before I had any contacts

17     with the Defence, I explained to the Prosecutor that when I said that he

18     was protected, I meant that he was protected from attacks by enemy

19     formations.  He was escorted the way VIPs are normally escorted as he was

20     travelling from Caparde to Karakaj.  There was a collegium meeting in

21     Belgrade and he was escorted to that meeting.  There was a part where

22     people always got killed.  That's where he was escorted by five cars

23     belonging to that unit.  That was what I meant when I said that he was

24     being protected.

25             Furthermore, I had a total of three or four different contacts

Page 36278

 1     with Mico Stanisic during that period.  I even explained for each of our

 2     contacts who provided escort and who protected him.  And thirdly,

 3     Malovic's unit held the combat line throughout the entire month of

 4     May behind the school in Vrace.  And then they were engaged in combat, as

 5     far as I can remember, in the territory of Dobrinja.  Sometime towards

 6     the end of June, they lost two men there.  One of them was nicknamed

 7     Glavonja, as far as I can remember.  In other words, that was in May and

 8     June.  I am convinced that that unit did not have any other activities

 9     but that engagement.  When they escorted the minister during combat, the

10     entire unit was involved in that.

11             I apologise for this lengthy answer.

12        Q.   If we can have 65 ter number 24852, please.

13             Now, Mr. Planojevic, we can see here this is the proofing note

14     and I'm -- unfortunately, we don't have it in your language.  But

15     paragraph 1 says that you were met on the 19th of October and you

16     confirmed that your transcript of the -- of the interview in 2004 was

17     correct apart from a few minor errors, and it mentions the three minor

18     errors that you picked up.

19             And then it talks about Mr. Malovic only providing security on

20     this one trip.

21             Now, the information that you provided when you were interviewed

22     in 2004 was something that you gave voluntarily about Mr. Malovic's unit.

23     It wasn't something that was put to you as a question and then you were

24     answering it.  You actually volunteered it.  And you proffered it,

25     information in relation to a man called Ivan Curak being beaten by

Page 36279

 1     Malovic.  And this is at -- in your OTP interview at page 65 of the

 2     English and page 67 of the B/C/S.  And that is 65 ter number 1D21002.

 3             You talk about that.  And then a little while later when you were

 4     discussing the attendees of the 11th of February meeting that you

 5     attended in Banja Luka, you were asked whether any of the attendees had

 6     any personal escorts.  And you said that Malovic and his group of 20 to

 7     25 men were all from the -- Sokolac and that Zoran Cvijetic as head of

 8     the CSB Sarajevo brought them and that Mico Stanisic took them from

 9     Zoran.

10             Do you recall saying that when you were interviewed in 2004?

11        A.   I don't remember what I said.

12             First of all, I did not think it was important who escorted whom.

13             Second of all, when Ivan was beaten, that happened in Vrace.  And

14     the minister was not there at all.  I believe that it was in late May.

15        Q.   No, no.  It was in relation to talking about this gentleman that

16     you then referred to Malovic for the very, very first time.  And you

17     talked about his unit.  And then a little while later in the interview,

18     you actually discussed that it was actually him and a group of 20 to 25

19     men that then came, and that Mico Stanisic took them from Zoran Cvijetic

20     who had actually brought them.

21             Do you remember saying that?

22        A.   I don't remember any details.  I may have said that.  However,

23     whenever he crossed risk areas there was a combat unit that escorted him.

24     I don't see any problem in that.  However, when I spoke to the Prosecutor

25     before my last trial, I explained him, and I can't remember his name,

Page 36280

 1     before the Defence even got involved.  When they started eliciting

 2     details about the unit, then I provided a very detailed explanation.  I

 3     adhere by all of those words because I spoke of what I had seen.  I saw

 4     him three or four times.  The fourth time I saw him from the hotel.

 5     And -- and on one occasion, he was escorted through Caparde.  He had come

 6     to Vrace.  Jasarevic was -- escort him in May 1992.  Our second contact

 7     was in --

 8        Q.   I want to -- I'm not talking about the times that you saw

 9     different people with Mr. Stanisic.  I want to concentrate on what you

10     said about Mr. Malovic.  And after you said --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, I'm not sure how relevant, important

12     this line of question is.  But if you like to put such question I would

13     like to put one by one.  Why don't you show the witness what he said in

14     interview and what -- it's a bit difficult for me as well to follow.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  Thank you, Your Honour.  If we could go

16     to page 80- -- 60 -- 65 in the English and page 67 in the B/C/S of

17     Exhibit 1D21002.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, before we do that, while we're

19     still here with this document, this is 24852.

20             JUDGE KWON:  The proofing note.  Yes.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.  What Ms. Sutherland put to this witness is

22     contradicted by this note, and I think she has been unfair to the

23     witness.  If you look at the second paragraph of this note, you'll see

24     that that was when he revealed to them about Malovic.  And then if you

25     look at the fourth paragraph of the note, it says that later --

Page 36281

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Is it fair to do this exercise in

 2     the presence of the witness?

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, I can could it outside of his presence but I

 4     think it's been unfair to the witness so far, and I'm trying to correct

 5     it.  I think it is beneficial to the witness to hear that.  But if you

 6     think that it would influence his answer, I can do it outside his

 7     presence.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Since Ms. Sutherland is going to put her question

 9     again, let us see.  And, if necessary, you can intervene again.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  Since we -- since this

11     document is only in English maybe I could just point out to you to take a

12     look at.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Microphone not activated] [Overlapping

14     speakers] ... and I do apologise, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, how much more would you need to

16     conclude your cross-examination?

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I think I have about 15 minutes, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  And I take it that you need some time for your

19     re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

20             THE ACCUSED:  I suppose.  But not too long.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a break now so that you can some

22     organise --

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  -- the remainder --

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you very much.

Page 36282

 1             JUDGE KWON:  -- of your cross.

 2             Ver well.  We will take a break for half an hour and resume at

 3     11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.27 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.01 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, please continue.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, first of all, I must apologise to

 8     the Court and to Mr. Planojevic for misrepresenting the series of events

 9     in relation to the proofing that occurred when you were here last time.

10     I don't know how I got it so mixed up in my head.  I know I have been

11     working on other -- other matters, but that doesn't explain it, so I hope

12     my apology is accepted, and Mr. Robinson.

13        Q.   Very quickly, Mr. Planojevic, because there's a couple of other

14     issues that I want to discuss with you.  But I would just take you to the

15     page in the interview in 2004 where you were talking about Mr. Malovic

16     and his group.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we could go to page 89 to 90 of the

18     English and page 92 to 93 of the B/C/S.  And that's 1D21002, please.

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Planojevic, here you say in the beginning that was like

20     a combat unit that came with Zoran Cvijetic to Sarajevo.  For the first

21     months they were protecting the line and you mentioned they were behind

22     the school earlier.

23             And it says here and they were participating in combat

24     activities.  After that, a certain number of men from that unit were

25     taken by Mico and I don't know the exact number but there were usually

Page 36283

 1     around ten of them.

 2             And then you go on in the next answer.  So there -- sorry.  In

 3     relation to that answer you gave, you said that there were usually around

 4     ten of them which must mean that you had seen them on more than one

 5     occasion.  You said a moment ago, just before the break, that they were

 6     only security for Mico Stanisic on this one occasion when you were

 7     travelling to Belgrade for the collegium in July 1992.  But clearly

 8     doesn't this mean that -- that you saw them with him more than that one

 9     occasion in July?

10        A.   May I answer?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   As far as I know, it was once in Kosuta where all of the units

13     were billeted so that there was no need to provide security.  When I

14     provided a statement as a suspect in 2004, at the time, I didn't even

15     think about or didn't think it was important and it was out of some kind

16     of protest because I did not see them afterwards in combat.  But, as I

17     said, I only saw them when they escorted the minister.  That is why I

18     then said that they were providing security for him.  I understood that

19     it happened only when he was travelling.  That's all the explanation I

20     have.  All I said is precisely the way it was.  How did this come about?

21     Well, of course, this is not made up, the story I provided in 2004.  I

22     can only explain by saying that I did not realise the importance of

23     Malovic.  That was the only reason.  I have no other explanation.

24     There's another thing which I all ready mentioned and that is that it is

25     all true.  I can't -- I can't recall every single time I ran into them so

Page 36284

 1     I can't even assert that they constantly provided his escort.

 2        Q.   And it was Mico Stanisic that had the authority to -- to decide

 3     when and how these special units would be used; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes.  But I wouldn't call them, at least in my view, they were

 5     not a special unit.  There was one special unit commanded by Karisik and

 6     Repija was his deputy.  As for the rest, they could call themselves

 7     whatever they wanted but there were groups assembled by someone who took

 8     part in combat and believed to be special.  So there was only Karisik's

 9     unit and Repija as his deputy, and later on it was Saric.  That was the

10     only special unit.

11        Q.   Okay, I want to move on.  In paragraphs 26 and 27 of your

12     statement you mention Batko.  That's Veselin Vlahovac; correct?

13        A.   Vlahovic, I believe.

14        Q.   And you said that you informed Mico Stanisic about him and also

15     Djeric, the crimes that had been committed by -- by him.  You said that

16     after Djeric made a phone call, and you're not sure who to, that at --

17     that at first Batko disappeared from Grbavica for about ten days and on

18     his return the army arrested him and detained him.

19             However, that wasn't the end of the matter, was it?  Because you

20     know that after he spent some time in army detention he returned back to

21     the area?

22        A.   I have to go back a bit.  I only heard about his crimes, as I

23     explained in my previous statement and that was in Belgrade.  Since there

24     were no bodies, there was no crime until you discovered the bodies.  That

25     is why I, at the beginning, only started inquiring whether it was true

Page 36285

 1     because that was the story that went around Belgrade and to see whether

 2     it was indeed happening.  It all was based on the assessment of two or

 3     three operatives, colleagues, who worked on it.  They told me that there

 4     were some stories, and given the fact that he was the kind of person,

 5     I've already explained what kind of person he was and who he associated

 6     with, well, of course, then I first went to the minister and he said,

 7     given that he was indeed in paramilitary formations and one needed an

 8     armed force to arrest him, I think they wanted to use someone from the

 9     army, and two or three days later I sat down with the prime minister.  I

10     found it necessary to make the whole thing more serious and to engage in

11     operative work to see whether it's true.  Someone must have provided a

12     signal, so he just went off -- under the radar.  However, after that

13     period, some ten days later he was arrested.  I know that.  And I even

14     remember that we had agreed that the prime minister would call president

15     directly.  I don't know whether he managed to contact him, because he was

16     unable when I was there, in order to have the man arrested.  I don't know

17     how long he was away for some ten or 15 days, but once he resurfaced he

18     was retained by the army.  I was then busy going about my private things,

19     but, at the end, he was released.  He was arrested, that's definitely so,

20     and it was done by the army.

21        Q.   And do you know if he was ever tried during the war for the

22     crimes he committed?

23        A.   I don't know that.  I read in a newspaper that even in Novi Sad

24     there was an attempted murder that he was responsible for also during the

25     war, in 1993 perhaps.  And then again I read that in Podgorica there was

Page 36286

 1     an attempted murder as well, and then all trace of him is lost.

 2        Q.   You know that he is being tried now by the BH State Court for

 3     crimes that he committed in May to September 1992.  Are you aware of

 4     that?

 5        A.   I do know that, I read it in the papers.

 6        Q.   You said that the Yellow Wasps in paragraph 30 of your

 7     statement -- you only heard rumours that they killed some civilians in

 8     Celopek.  The -- the -- the RS MUP took no measures against the

 9     Yellow Wasps and -- or -- or they didn't take measures until the

10     Yellow Wasps began confiscating the Golf vehicles at a check-point in

11     Karakaj; isn't that right?

12        A.   It's difficult to answer that question.  I was unaware of their

13     existence until they controlled me.  I even accepted it in goodwill.  And

14     when I heard who I was [as interpreted], they said that they had data on

15     what had gone to Belgrade, and I explained that I would send an inspector

16     the next day, thinking they were acting in goodwill.  But --

17        Q.   Mr. -- Mr. Planojevic, that's in your statement.  My question

18     was, as far as you're aware, the RS MUP took no measures against the

19     Yellow Wasps until the point where they started confiscating Golf

20     vehicles and also, if I may add to that, that Stanisic was harassed at a

21     check-point by the Yellow Wasps, and within days, an operation was

22     ordered led -- led by Mico Davidovic to have the paramilitary group

23     arrested; that is correct, isn't it?

24        A.   That's not right.  I have to correct you.  That operation was

25     being set up by the state -- well, that was right after my return,

Page 36287

 1     perhaps around the 15th of July.  There were many problems, not only

 2     confiscating cars, there were all sorts of other things which I learned

 3     later, and the operation had to be set up operatively.  First, it had to

 4     be investigated, who they were and how many, so it was first the state

 5     service who prepared the data.  Perhaps only a month later they were

 6     arrested, all of them, during the night.  I learned about it later.  They

 7     were interviewed, and I don't know what was done later on whether they

 8     were prosecuted.  I know they were all arrested and that the exercise of

 9     conducting interviews with them lasted for quite some time.

10        Q.   But they weren't -- they weren't charged with crimes committed

11     against non-Serbs, they were actually charged with theft of vehicles and

12     so forth, weren't they?

13        A.   I really can't say about that because I was no longer in my

14     position once it was implemented.

15        Q.   Okay.  I just want to show you a document now.

16             MS.  SUTHERLAND:  If I can have 65 ter 24863, please.

17        Q.   This is a 1995 document, Mr. Planojevic.  It's a report to the RS

18     MUP from the State Security Department in relation to VRS members who

19     captured 12 French soldiers.  And it's a report dated the

20     27th of May, 1995.

21                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

22             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told that it was not released, Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh.  Ms. Stewart is doing it as we speak,

24     Your Honour.

25             Unfortunately, Your Honour, we don't have a translation.

Page 36288

 1             I'll come back to the document.  I won't waste time.  While we're

 2     getting it released, I will turn to another topic.

 3        Q.   Just quickly, Mr. Planojevic, you were shown a document during

 4     your Stanisic Zupljanin testimony, and it's Exhibit P02978 [Realtime

 5     transcript read in error "P2078"] in our case and it doesn't need to be

 6     brought up on the screen, but it's a list of commendations for a number

 7     of persons, including members and units of the RS MUP who were receiving

 8     a medal for the -- for different things.  And your name appears at number

 9     139.  And you testified in Stanisic/Zupljanin that you wrote to

10     President Karadzic and told him you didn't want a medal but that

11     you don't have a copy of this letter that you sent to Mr. Karadzic, but

12     did you explain why you didn't want this medal in -- in -- in the letter?

13     And this was a medal for the services to the nation.

14        A.   There was no explanation.  As far as I recall, I even mentioned

15     that there -- that was no time for explanations and that I didn't want to

16     explain why I didn't want to receive it.  What I said at the time was

17     that I believed, because of the entire war situation where people were

18     loosing lives and human life was at its cheapest, that no one deserved

19     commendation.  That was my position then.

20             I'd rather not go into any specific reasons.  I believe that's

21     how I put it at the time.  There will always be sufficient time to

22     explain.

23             JUDGE KWON:  The exhibit number you gave seems to be the

24     different one.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I do apologise.  I will find the

Page 36289

 1     correct exhibit number and advise.

 2             We have document number 24863 released now.  And, Your Honour, I

 3     just note that in e-court that document does come up when you put in

 4     P02978 which is the number that I gave.  But in the transcript it reads

 5     "P2078" instead of "2978."  I apologise if I misstated the number.  I

 6     don't want that document on the screen.  I would like to have 65 ter

 7     number 24863, 65 ter number, on the screen, please.

 8        Q.   This is the 1995 document from May, 27th of May, Mr. Planojevic.

 9             And it says here that the French soldiers on the Vrbanja bridge

10     have been taken to the offices of Investbanka as hostages; is that right?

11     That's the term that's used in the documents, "hostages"?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Or shall we ask the witness to read aloud?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, we can do that, Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, can you just read the last -- last paragraph?

15     The second-to-last paragraph.  Sorry.  Yeah, sorry, the first --

16     starting -- starting with the first paragraph.

17        A.   Very well:

18             "According to the latest operational information that we have at

19     our disposal, members of our forces hold 12 French soldiers as hostages

20     on the premises of the Investbank (the building closest to the Vrbanja

21     bridge).  They had captured them and taken them from the French

22     check-point at the Vrbanja bridge.  At the check-point, there are

23     currently four to five of our soldiers holding two French soldiers

24     hostage.  However, they have been blocked by both French and Muslim

25     forces."

Page 36290

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Planojevic.  That's --

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And an English translation is being uploaded

 3     into e-court, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No question about this document?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, I can see this is signed "za."

 7             Do you know who signed this on your behalf?

 8        A.   It is possible that it was Tomo Puhalac.  I'm not sure this is

 9     his handwriting.  He was my deputy at the time.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.  I seek to tender that document,

11     Your Honour.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit it.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6242, Your Honours.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   And thank you, Mr. Planojevic.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Could I ask you, Mr. Planojevic, to assist us in

22     clarifying certain elements which surfaced during cross-examination.

23             Did you know what -- who provided my security detail on a

24     standing basis?

25        A.   To tell you the truth, I didn't.  I knew who your driver was,

Page 36291

 1     and, later on, I knew another two people, but it probably changed.  We

 2     saw each other infrequently, and I suppose there were changes in their

 3     composition.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  But they were employed by the MUP; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 7             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Microphone not activated] Your Honour, I don't

 9     know that this arises --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I don't know that this

13     arises from cross-examination.  I didn't ask any questions about

14     Mr. Karadzic's security.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can explain.  I have to lay a

16     basis so as to reach a full description, full image.  I'll get to it.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I don't know how.

18             Mr. Robinson, could you assist us a bit further.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  I think what Dr. Karadzic is getting at is the

20     issue of Mr. Malovic and his escorting of officials which was raised in

21     the cross-examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Can you tell the Chamber, as a member of the state security, what

Page 36292

 1     was the procedure when I travelled, myself or any other senior official

 2     that had to be escorted as per law?

 3        A.   It had to be operationally covered.  In other words, it had to be

 4     assessed whether there was any threat.  Information had to be gathered on

 5     the level of threat and the particular points which were deemed

 6     dangerous.  If necessary, it also included certain combat assets,

 7     especially in the area via Caparde which is something I mentioned.  In

 8     keeping with such an assessment, the number of security detail is decided

 9     upon; that is to say, the strength of forces securing the passage.

10             In order to answer your first question, at first I wasn't

11     familiar with it because it was always up to the state security to deal

12     with the security detail.  I knew your driver.  By

13     September/October 1992, I moved to the state security.

14        Q.   Thank you.  As regards the permanent members of security detail,

15     the combat security provided along the route, is it always the same?

16        A.   It is impossible to always have the same people.  It depended on

17     the area.  If it was the area of Podrinje -- well, escort means providing

18     a certain type of securing persons in movement.  It always required local

19     forces because there weren't enough men to cover it all, at all times.

20     Frequently it meant a certain number of people, but they changed

21     depending on their current engagement though.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you know who was on the permanent security detail

23     of Minister Stanisic?

24        A.   It was Jasarevic and Abazovic in most occasions, actually, on two

25     or three or four occasions that we met.  I'm not sure.

Page 36293

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Kezunovic was mentioned, and in his testimony he

 2     stated how many daily telegrams were required typically for the service

 3     to operate normally, provided communications were operational.  Did you

 4     say today that you never received any reports or that you didn't receive

 5     a single -- a sufficient number of reports?

 6        A.   I was isolated in Vrace.  I must tell you that all the lines from

 7     our base went via Sarajevo.  So at any moment, it was possible for those

 8     people in Sarajevo to cut us off.  These lines went on from Sarajevo

 9     across the territory of the Federation so every post office was able to

10     sever the communication lines.  The only post office in the hands of the

11     Serbian forces was the one in Ilidza.  All the rest were in the

12     Federation so that mail barely reached it.  Since the analysis department

13     was in Pale, and I can see that the analysts received some reports and

14     that these communications worked a little bit better.  But, anyway, I

15     don't think that anything was working around Sarajevo and it was

16     physically impossible for any mail to reach its destination.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Where was the work station of Mr. Orasanin, the one

18     you sent to Vogosca?

19        A.   He was an inspector in the administration department.  He didn't

20     have a proper appointment letter, but he was working with the

21     administration of the criminal investigation police.

22        Q.   Where was his workplace?

23        A.   Mainly in Vrace, unless he was asked to help someone on the

24     ground in Podrinje, Ilidza, and other places.

25        Q.   Thank you.  And how did he send this -- report to you on the

Page 36294

 1     inspection that he had carried out in Vogosca?

 2        A.   It was brought to me in -- personally.  He -- he gave it to me

 3     personally.

 4        Q.   Did I understand you correctly?  He makes a report and then comes

 5     in person to deliver it to you.

 6        A.   Yes, that is correct.

 7        Q.   Can you tell us in which areas were you able to conduct

 8     investigations, criminal investigations.

 9        A.   Well, we were restricted both in terms of communications and

10     security.  All the municipalities around Sarajevo held by the Serbian

11     forces were something that was difficult to pass through.  I sometimes

12     didn't know who to send.  And it was impossible to conduct any serious

13     investigations from the point of view of a criminal investigation and

14     tactical and other intelligence operations that we were absolutely unable

15     to perform.  If you want me to explain, I can give you at least ten

16     reasons why that was the case.

17        Q.   Thank you.  I am particularly interested in the note in P6240 on

18     page 2, and I'm going to read it.  It is necessary, if you know, to cite

19     the cases of serious criminal offences against Serbs committed in the

20     areas controlled by the MUP of the former Socialist Federal Republic of

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.

22             Can you tell us, were you able to conduct investigations in the

23     areas controlled by their MUP?

24        A.   All we could do was to collect intelligence only after the fact,

25     but it was absolutely impossible to carry out an investigation work.

Page 36295

 1        Q.   Thank you.  How did you gather intelligence about the events

 2     taking place in the territory beyond our control and where you had no

 3     access, in order to investigate?

 4        A.   Mainly through exchanges of individuals or from individuals who

 5     managed, one way or another, to escape from the territory under the

 6     Muslim control.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And who took statements from these individuals and

 8     what was done with those statements?

 9        A.   It depended.  Sometimes it was done by the officials from the

10     National Security Service, and if there was insufficient personnel,

11     people from the criminal investigation department would become involved.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I don't know how this arises from

14     cross-examination, this line of questioning.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Is it not related to the emphasis of the

16     investigation?  Let us see how it evolves.  Please continue.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   First of all, can you tell us whether Gordana, I think her last

19     name, Bundalo, and Mr. Govedarica, what was their occupation and where

20     were they employed?

21        A.   I believe that Govedarica was a photographer in the press centre.

22     I think I'm not wrong.  I think he was a photographer.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Was either of them employed in the MUP and were they

24     criminal investigation experts?

25        A.   No.  It has nothing to do with the Ministry of the Interior.  I

Page 36296

 1     understand that to be a state commission, if I understood the question

 2     correctly, the commission that was set up to establish crimes.

 3        Q.   Did you know Mr. Miroslav Toholj.

 4        A.   Yes, I did.

 5        Q.   Toholj.  I see that the LiveNote is blocked.

 6             Was he the director of this other state centre for documentation

 7     and records of crimes against Serbs?

 8        A.   I think he was.

 9        Q.   What was Mr. Toholj's profession?

10        A.   He was an author, a journalist, if I'm not mistaken, I'm not

11     sure.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us now what is the difference between

13     investigation and documenting in the territories where we were unable to

14     conduct investigations?

15        A.   The process of documenting events boiled down to, I think,

16     photographing the events or recording them in some other way, as well as

17     by taking witness -- statements from eye-witnesses.

18        Q.   How is that different from an investigation carried out in the

19     territories that were accessible to us?

20        A.   I said that a whole series of intelligence and operative and

21     technical measures have to be undertaken, starting with establishing

22     trace evidence, conducting interviews, carrying out an on-site

23     investigation, a forensic investigation, and carrying out certain

24     analyses, if possible.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us, concerning the area where we had

Page 36297

 1     access more or less, that is to say, in the areas under the Serb control,

 2     was it possible for us to carry out special investigations of crimes

 3     against Serbs?

 4             So what was the attitude towards the perpetrators and the victims

 5     in the legal sense and the criminal sense that was taken by the MUP?

 6        A.   Can you please repeat?  I didn't understand you.

 7        Q.   Let me put it this way:  Did it make sense for us to collect

 8     information about the crimes -- committed by Muslims against Muslims in

 9     their territory?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what was the attitude of the

12     investigating organs and the police and the MUP towards the crimes

13     committed in the territory accessible to us.  More or less, what was

14     their attitude towards the ethnic background of the perpetrators and the

15     victims?  Was any distinction made in that sense?

16        A.   Well, as far as I know, and I don't want to talk about the areas

17     that I have no information about, we did not make any difference.

18     Whenever I received intelligence about a certain area, and that pertained

19     to this period of two or three months around Sarajevo, we treated both

20     the victims and the perpetrators in the same manner.

21        Q.   And are you aware of any instance when a crime was committed in

22     our territory against anybody, particularly against non-Serbs that was

23     deliberately covered up and was not documented and was not prosecuted

24     later on?

25        A.   I'm not aware of any such instances.

Page 36298

 1        Q.   Mr. Planojevic, thank you for being a stern professional.  But

 2     just one more question.  However, if it does not stem from

 3     cross-examination, I'll not do it.

 4             Let me just ask you this:  Were you a member of our party?

 5        A.   I'm not a member of any party ever since 1990.

 6        Q.   Thank you for your fanatical professionalism and for your

 7     testimony.

 8        A.   Thank you, too.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Mr. Planojevic, that concludes your

10     evidence.  On behalf of the Chamber, I thank you for your coming to

11     The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much.

13                           [The witness withdrew]

14             JUDGE KWON:  There's a matter the Chamber wishes to deal with in

15     private session.

16             Could the Chamber move into private session, please.

17                           [Private session]

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 36299











11  Page 36299 redacted.  Private session.















Page 36300

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Are there any other matters to be raised?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  A few days ago, Mr. Nicholls raised the issue of

23     putting a date on the interview of President Karadzic on CNN and directed

24     our attention to a 65 ter document, 24847, and indicated that that --

25     that showed that the date of the interview was the

Page 36301

 1     28th of November, 1995.

 2             So having reviewed that document, we agree that the date of that

 3     interview was 28th November 1995, but we don't set -- we don't believe

 4     that the document itself needs to be admitted.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We already admitted the portion of the interview.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct.  The interview has been

 7     admitted [Overlapping speakers] ...

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So with that agreement it would suffice.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you.  There is one other issue I would just

10     like to bring up very briefly, and that is that the Chamber issued a

11     decision concerning the adequacy of our Rule 65 ter summaries and imposed

12     a measure concerning the time between provision of the English interviews

13     and the time the witness can testify.

14             That decision crossed with another motion filed by the

15     Prosecution concerning the summaries for Srebrenica.  And we are

16     proposing not to respond to this second motion, the understanding that

17     the remedy that the Chamber ordered would apply to that motion as well,

18     and I would just simply notify the Chamber of that.  And unless you order

19     us to the contrary, we wouldn't be responding to that motion.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Any observation, Mr. Tieger, from you?

21             MR. TIEGER:  I don't believe the Trial Chamber needs to decide

22     its position at this point.  I don't think the point Mr. Robinson was

23     making was necessarily contingent on that.  There are obviously the same

24     motions -- involve the same issues serially, so I presume that unless

25     Mr. Robinson had something specific to say about the material, and I

Page 36302

 1     don't -- I don't think given the previous response that was the case,

 2     that -- I certainly understand his position about not responding and --

 3     and if he is seeking a guarantee from the Chamber about the decision,

 4     I -- I -- I don't think the Court is in a position to signal that one way

 5     or another, but I imagine he is pretty clear on where things stand in any

 6     event.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  The points have been duly noted.

 8             We will resume on Tuesday, 2nd of April.

 9             The hearing is adjourned.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to congratulate

11     Easter, all of those who celebrate it, according to the Gregorian

12     calendar.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Happy Easter to you all.

14                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 11.53 a.m.,

15                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 2nd day of April,

16                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.