1 Thursday, 6 June 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Yes, Mr. Robinson?
8 MR. ROBINSON: Good morning, Mr. President. I'd like to
9 introduce to the Chamber Ethan Notarius from Buffalo, New York. He's
10 joining us this session. He's working as a legal intern.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger, please continue.
12 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
13 WITNESS: WITNESS KW317 [Resumed]
14 [Witness answered through interpreter]
15 Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger: [Continued]
16 Q. Good morning, Witness.
17 A. Good morning.
18 Q. I wanted to begin by asking about one of the commemorations of
19 the liberation of Zvornik, in this case the anniversary of the event that
20 was called the anniversary of the liberation of Zvornik which was held on
21 9 April 1994. I'll show you a couple of pictures about that, okay? Do
22 you generally recall that such an event occurred or events of that type
23 occurred on the anniversary of April 9th?
24 A. That's possible. I don't remember the exact year but it may have
25 happened that way.
1 Q. Well, let's take a look at a couple of pictures initially.
2 MR. TIEGER: If we can go into private session, please.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
4 [Private session]
11 Page 39354 redacted. Private session.
4 [Open session]
5 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honour.
6 JUDGE KWON: For example, you can show him the very next page.
7 What does it say, Mr. Witness?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This says solemn session of the
9 Zvornik municipal assembly on the occasion of the day of the liberation
10 of Zvornik, the 9th of April, 1994.
11 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
12 MR. TIEGER:
13 Q. Okay, and if we could -- I just wanted to turn to find -- to
14 identify some of the other persons present. If we could turn to page 15,
15 please. And do you recognise that person?
16 A. This is Brano Grujic.
17 Q. Okay. And I believe the next page will have what's handwritten
18 on the back. Which should state Brano Grujic president of the
19 municipality giving a speech at the ceremony on the occasion of the
20 second anniversary of Zvornik's liberation and also dated 9 April 1994.
21 That's correct, isn't it?
22 A. That's what it says, correct.
23 Q. And for identification purposes, this is marked ERN 04452465 and
24 the previous -- the photograph was 2464. Okay? And if we can turn next
25 to e-court page 19. Do you recognise that gentleman?
1 A. The face is familiar, but I cannot remember the man exactly.
2 Q. Okay. Let's look at the next page. There are about four or five
3 photographs of this gentleman in the collection of photographs about this
4 event. And as we see here again dated 9 April 1994, Zvornik, the
5 handwritten notation, Radmilo Bogdanovic. Does that refresh your
6 recollection that the gentleman depicted here at the event is the
7 minister of the interior of Serbia?
8 A. That's him, for sure.
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. And finally if we could turn to e-court
10 page 11, and do you recognise this man depicted in this photograph?
11 A. The one in the picture is Zeljko Raznatovic, Arkan.
12 Q. Okay. And are you able to see - we can blow it up - what his
13 name tag says?
14 A. It says "host."
15 Q. And if we turn to the next page, again indicating the same date,
16 and stating in handwritten, Zeljo Raznatovic, aka Arkan, at the
17 ceremonial session of the Zvornik Municipal Assembly on the occasion of
18 the Zvornik liberation day; correct?
19 A. That's what it says.
20 Q. And that one is marked 04452461 and the photograph is 04452460.
21 Thank you, Witness.
22 MR. TIEGER: I tender those photographs.
23 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we don't have any objection to
24 the photographs that were discussed with the witness being admitted with
25 the exception of page 7 which we don't think the witness was able to
1 comment on at all.
2 MR. TIEGER: Well, I think in fairness, the witness understood it
3 takes place at the municipal -- well, I'd have to go back into private
4 session to argue that, but I think the comments were sufficient given the
5 context as we understand it and what we know about the witness's roles.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will admit those shown to the witness.
7 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6371, Your Honours.
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Now, Witness, yesterday we spoke a bit about Marko Pavlovic, the
10 commander of the TO, beginning in April, and it's -- this trial -- and
11 let me step back. We talked about -- a bit about Arkan's men and there
12 were -- I think there was reference yesterday in a more general fashion
13 to other paramilitary personnel in Zvornik at the time. This
14 Trial Chamber has received evidence including payroll records of the TO
15 reflecting that a group known as Zuco's units, which was sometimes
16 referred to as the Yellow Wasps but more formally known as the
17 Igor Markovic unit, were part of the TO and were outfitted and received
18 payment from the TO. For that we could turn to P2867, P2863, D1417 and
19 others. Now, as you previously acknowledged it was the Zvornik municipal
20 authorities, that is the interim or provisional government that financed
21 the TO; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And you were aware at the time that the paramilitary -- so-called
24 paramilitaries were in fact financed by and on the TO payroll; correct?
25 A. I supposed as much but only when I saw these documents, I said
1 that this was possible. It was a real possibility because they were on
2 the list of the TO as volunteers.
3 Q. Well, I think you said at page 28 of your -- in 2002, of your
4 statement, that you were aware that when money was given to
5 Marko Pavlovic, finance would also go to these paramilitary groups and
6 that it was "in disputable that they had this support. That's correct,
7 isn't it?
8 A. That is correct.
9 Q. All right. And if we could quickly turn to 65 ter 18748 and
10 turn, please, to the last page of the English and the second-to-last page
11 of the B/C/S, just looking at the -- okay, let's -- let's -- just looking
12 at the last paragraph, sir, the -- if we just turn to that last
13 paragraph, that indicates that -- in the last two paragraphs of the
14 document -- that on -- first of all, let me indicate what the document
15 is. It's a document from the federal secretariat for the
16 National Defence security administration. It is dated as we see on the
17 front page, 26 May 1992, contains information about various crimes. It's
18 a military secret, highly confidential. And then as we turn to the last
19 page we see the following entries, on 28 April this year four members of
20 the Zvornik municipal TO who are under the command of Zuco killed two
21 Muslim men and raped two Muslim women, and then the next entry is
22 reflects events of 2 May of 1992, indicating that the commander of the
23 Zvornik municipal TO, Marko Pavlovic, informed the OB of the execution of
24 19 residents of Muslim nationality from the village of Snagovo. So this
25 document, in particular the entry of 28 April, reflects the understanding
1 of the authorities across the river that the Zuco's units were members of
2 the Zvornik municipality TO, correct, which is consistent with what your
3 understanding was?
4 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, I'd like to object. He's putting too
5 many propositions to the witness at one time. It's going to be very
7 MR. TIEGER: Let me do it this way.
8 Q. Witness --
9 JUDGE KWON: Shall we deal with the nature of this document
10 first, Mr. -- whose document this is?
11 MR. TIEGER:
12 Q. Witness, we can look at the front page.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
14 MR. TIEGER:
15 Q. Witness, you can see that this is a document of the federal
16 secretariat for the National Defence security administration and you also
17 see the date of the document toward the bottom, and as I say, I wanted
18 to -- wasn't directing your attention to other parts of the document but
19 to the last two paragraphs, and in particular, to simplify the question,
20 wanted you to confirm that the SSNO's understanding and information that
21 the -- that --
22 JUDGE KWON: Could you first confirm SSNO of what?
23 MR. TIEGER: This is the federal secretariat for the
24 National Defence security administration.
25 JUDGE KWON: Of Yugoslavia or Serbia, Republika Srpska? That's
1 my question.
2 MR. TIEGER: I see.
3 JUDGE KWON: It's submitted to Panic so that's --
4 MR. TIEGER: Right.
5 Q. Do you know, sir, which body this is? And would you accept that
6 based on the title, it is a body of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia?
7 A. No. Not the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, it didn't exist at
8 the time. It could only have been a body of the SFRY, the
9 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
10 Q. And turning to the last two paragraphs that I directed your
11 attention to, that information that is that persons under the command of
12 Zuco were members of the Zvornik municipality TO that's consistent with
13 your information, isn't it, about their relationship to the TO?
14 A. We must distinguish two things here. You're trying to impose
15 something on me. I said that it was possible that they were receiving
16 their pay because the provisional government funded the
17 Territorial Defence. When Marko Pavlovic got money, it can't be ruled
18 out that he also paid paramilitaries. I cannot say now what the
19 relationship was between Zuco and Marko Pavlovic because there were other
20 volunteers too who were in the Territorial Defence on their list and
21 under their command, and Zuco certainly was not under the command of
22 Marko Pavlovic. That's 100 per cent sure.
23 MR. TIEGER: I would tender that document and I also tender
24 page --
25 JUDGE KWON: Can I see the first page again? This is allegedly a
1 report about the crimes committed by certain members, in the republic --
2 Republika Srpska Krajina.
3 MR. TIEGER: This clear -- there is clearly a disconnect between
4 that title and the geographic location [overlapping speakers].
5 JUDGE KWON: So whether Zvornik is part of RSK.
6 MR. TIEGER: I don't think there is any -- I don't think anyone
7 is suggesting that. I think that's -- I mean, I wouldn't see the need to
8 take that up. It's obvious that Zvornik is not part of the RSK and there
9 is no suggestion to that effect.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
11 Yes, Mr. Robinson?
12 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, we object to the admission of
13 this document. The witness hasn't confirmed anything about the document.
14 He hasn't -- it doesn't directly contradict him, and in particular,
15 I call your attention to the last sentence of that paragraph which is
16 what I think the reason why Mr. Tieger wants the document to be admitted.
17 I don't think that we could admit a document like this which has a lot of
18 information just on the one small sentence, whether it confirms or
19 contradicts the witness and then have other parts of that document which
20 are very controversial just simply be part of the record which the
21 Chamber can use in its judgement. So we don't think that this is a
22 sufficient foundation to admit the document through this witness. If you
23 do want to admit something, we would ask that you admit the first
24 sentence of paragraph 9 on the top of this last page only.
25 MR. TIEGER: I'm not seeking the admission of the entire document
1 only the referenced portions which are the front -- the cover page and
2 the last -- the last two paragraphs. Certainly agree with Mr. Robinson
3 that the first sentence at a minimum obviously goes in. I can't even see
4 a basis for any argument to the contrary but I continue to see that -- to
5 maintain that there is sufficient basis for admission of those two
6 paragraphs, in light of the issues presented to this witness in general.
7 And the nature of the document. The rest of it, as Mr. Robinson likes to
8 say, goes to weight.
9 [Trial Chamber confers]
10 JUDGE KWON: Can you upload the English last page?
11 [Trial Chamber confers]
12 JUDGE BAIRD: Mr. Robinson, the line you're referring to begins
13 with, "There were old men." What exactly are you objecting to?
14 MR. ROBINSON: It's the last sentence of the top paragraph which
15 reads the leadership.
16 JUDGE BAIRD: The leadership, okay. Thank you. Thank you very
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will admit the first page and the last page.
20 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6372, Your Honours.
21 MR. TIEGER:
22 Q. Witness, in your statement at paragraphs -- beginning at
23 paragraphs 51, there is a section which basically falls under the heading
24 of movement of the population, and you mention at paragraph 55 that the
25 Muslims of Djulici "decided to leave." And at paragraph 59 you refer to
1 the decision of the Muslims to leave Kozluk was made by them, and so on.
2 So I want to be clear on some of the things that were happening in
3 Zvornik. And -- that some of the information you provided about that
5 So when you returned to Zvornik from Glinica, there were still
6 some Muslims in town but the situation for them "was awful," right, that
7 Muslim flats were being looted and only Muslim flats were being looted?
8 A. Not only Muslim flats were being looted, Serbian too. But it
9 happened more after the prisoners were released -- after Zvornik was
10 liberated, after the 9th. Then Muslim flats were looted more than the
11 Serbian. However, Serbian flats were also being looted before the
12 9th of April.
13 Q. Didn't you explain that in your building there were about 80
14 apartments and about half and half?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And that only Muslim flats had been ransacked and looted?
17 A. Yes, in my entrance. The building had four entrances, and in my
18 entrance where there were three or four Muslim flats, those were the
19 flats that were looted.
20 Q. You also said that after the attack on Zvornik town, attacks on
21 the villages continued. For example, in Kozluk, Muslims were being
22 "beaten and killed," they could no longer go to work, and the villages
23 around them "were burning and their lives were very bad." That's part of
24 the situation in Zvornik for Muslims at the time; right?
25 A. What you read out refers to Kozluk, I believe. As far as Zvornik
1 is concerned, at the time, as of the 9th of April, the Serbs were in
2 control of the town. There were perhaps Muslims --
3 Q. I was talking about Kozluk. I was talking about the attacks on
4 villages after the attack on Zvornik. And I think you've just confirmed
5 that that does refer to -- that information referred to Kozluk.
6 A. Regarding Kozluk and the nearby villages, from the very beginning
7 of the conflict, well, there was an all out war there from the start. We
8 didn't have any information what was going on for at least 10 to 15 days.
9 I didn't see any of it. However, after that, I could see torched
10 villages on both sides and I heard from the locals that there were people
11 being detained, beaten, et cetera.
12 Q. And, for example, the people who -- the Muslims who remained in
13 places like Djulici, Kozluk, Sepak were in what you described as
14 extremely dire straits; correct? And you testified to that in the
15 Stanisic and Zupljanin case.
16 A. Yes. The situation was dire for them.
17 Q. And the situation was such that as you yourself emphasised
18 previously, and did so back years ago when these events were fresher in
19 your memory, that the Muslims of Zvornik left because they were
20 essentially compelled to leave, they didn't -- as you said it, people in
21 Djulici, for example, did not leave voluntarily, they went under stress
22 and in fear.
23 A. Definitely. No one leaves of their own free will. They move
24 because of the circumstances. In Zvornik, before Djulici, six or seven
25 Serbs had arrived from the environs of Tuzla and those people did not
1 come there because they wanted to go but because the situation was such
2 that they were forced to. Now, let me tell you about the people you
3 mentioned. When I spoke to them, they said there was no medication, no
4 job, no electricity, no water, there is nothing. There is firing all
5 around. And you see houses being torched daily, Muslim and Serb houses.
6 The front line was only 4 kilometres away and what could they expect?
7 They said that there were about 7.000 of them in the entire area whereas
8 only 2and a half remained. That's what I clearly remember. So at the
9 very beginning of the conflict, many people left. Those who stayed were
10 in a bad situation. They did not even have food. They only had the food
11 provided to them by the nearest and closest Serb neighbours.
12 Q. Well, let's talk for a moment about what you learned from members
13 of the municipal authorities, that is what they knew about what was
14 happening and what was related to you. And let me focus for a moment on
15 what you learned from Kosta Eric, who was as I understand it the head of
16 sanitation or civil protection.
17 A. Yes, Kosta Eric was -- well, I don't know exactly, but I think he
18 was the heads of civil protection or its leadership. In any case, on one
19 occasion he came to Glinica and he told us that on one occasion they had
20 a possibility to go and visit places where people were detained and
21 I think he referred to the dom, the hall in Celopek, and he said they
22 could observe traces of human blood. That's what he told us.
23 Q. Let me remind you of what you told us previously years ago when
24 these events were fresher and see if that refreshes your recollection
25 about what Mr. Eric told you. So, for example, you did indicate you
1 discussed that with him on two occasions, he told you that in Celopek
2 people were brought in, Muslims from Divic and from Djulici, and they
3 were killed. He also told you that people were tortured there, and he
4 said that "passers-by could hear their cries, moans and screams. They
5 were beaten with truncheons and in other ways." That's what Mr. Eric
6 told you at the time; right?
7 A. I don't recall it in such detail but he did say that there was
8 torture there. That is certain.
9 Q. And with respect to the Dom Kulture in Celopek he told you that
10 he had to clean it and had a -- to use a team of men and hired trucks and
11 drivers to do that; right? That's what you said at page 241 of your 2003
13 A. Yes. He did mention it.
14 Q. And you also indicated on one occasion, when you were -- when you
15 ran into Kosta Eric along with engineer Markovic, Eric told you that they
16 were transporting a large number of bodies and burying them into mass
17 graves, common graves; correct? That's found at page 240 of your 2003
19 A. He did say so.
20 Q. And he also told you that people detained at the Ekonomija farm
21 were from -- were Muslims from villages such as, according to him, Divic
22 and Djulici; right? That's found at page 221 of your 2003 interview.
23 A. Yes, he did say that.
24 Q. Now, with respect to these people in -- these Muslims in Celopek,
25 that is the people who were -- Eric let you know were being tortured and
1 killed, you learned that they had been -- that they were people who had
2 been previously held in detention at the Karakaj technical school; right?
3 A. Yes. There were people at the technical school.
4 Q. And the reason they were being held at the technical school was
5 that they had been detained by Marko Pavlovic and the TO and you learned
6 that from, among other sources, Pavlovic himself; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And he told you that he separated out these men from the
9 women and children for the purpose of exchanging them; right?
10 A. He said that he had separated some 170 men and he wanted them
11 exchanged for the soldiers and civilians captured in Tuzla. He also said
12 that he had a list of those men that he sent to Tuzla in order to arrange
13 an exchange.
14 Q. And you told him, as you testified in the Stanisic/Zupljanin
15 case, that these people weren't soldiers but -- that is the people that
16 he had -- was holding in detention weren't soldiers but they were
17 civilians, and Pavlovic responded angrily by telling you it wasn't up to
18 you to tell the TO what to do; right?
19 A. Yes, yes.
20 Q. In paragraphs 51 through 60 -- well, excuse me, we just talked
21 about -- in paragraph 62, you state that you "later informed
22 Presidents Karadzic and Krajisnik about what you heard about the fate of
23 Muslims in our area," and that paragraph appears after the description of
24 movement of the population which refers to events in Djulici, Kozluk and
25 Sepak. I'm going to ask you a few questions about what you conveyed to
1 the Bosnian Serb leadership and when, but first I wanted to ask you about
2 paragraph 64 of your statement. There, you state that you did not attend
3 the Serb Assembly on May 12th because communication was so bad that you
4 were virtually cut off and didn't know about the meeting.
5 Now, first of all, can you confirm that Ugljevik, Lopare,
6 Bijeljina, Sekovici and Tuzla are all contiguous -- adjacent to Zvornik.
7 Those are all -- those are all surrounding municipalities?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And if we could turn to 65 ter 00581, please. This is an
10 attendance record from the Bosnian Serb Assembly reflecting the
11 attendance of representatives from various municipalities including from
12 Ugljevik, Nedjeljko Gavric; from Lopare, Dragomir Kerovic; from
13 Bijeljina, Dragoljub Micic, Miladin Nedic, Milan Novakovic; from
14 Sekovici, Ilija Nedjic; and from Tuzla, Milan Tesic and Milan Spasojevic.
15 That those were -- that's an accurate summary of the municipalities those
16 representatives were from; correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. And as we can see from this document, those deputies
19 attended the session of 12 May 1992, the 16th session.
20 MR. TIEGER: And I would tender this document.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6373, Your Honours.
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. Now, Witness, in addition to the fact that deputies from the
25 municipalities surrounding Zvornik made it to the session -- let me go
1 into private session for this.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 [Private session]
22 [Open session]
23 MR. TIEGER:
24 Q. As a matter of fact, the frequency of those meetings was
25 corroborated by what you explained about the number of times you advised
1 Mr. Karadzic about what was happening in Zvornik. So, for example, as a
2 general matter you said in your 2002 statement at page 25:
3 "Whenever there was an opportunity I would tell Karadzic and
4 Krajisnik what was happening in Zvornik."
5 That was your position in 2002, wasn't it?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? I would like ask to be
7 precise in terms of the year and precise time to which it refers, the
8 question, that is.
9 MR. TIEGER: I don't think it's an inappropriate question. We
10 are going to be getting to some very specific references in just a
12 Q. That was your position in 2002, that whenever you had a chance
13 you would tell Karadzic and Krajisnik what was happening in Zvornik;
15 A. My first opportunity was in August, and it was a face-to-face
16 meeting. I saw them at Pale for the first time at the first session,
17 after Banja Luka. However, on that occasion did I not have an
18 opportunity to speak to them tete-a-tete.
19 Q. Let's look very carefully then at what you said in 2002 and 2003
20 about specific occasions on which you informed Mr. Karadzic about what
21 was happening in Zvornik and the specific events about which you were
22 informing him. Now, in your 2002 interview at page 25, you said the
23 first time you informed them was "after the situation in Kozluk." And
24 you had explained just prior to that at page 24 that this referred an
25 event "at the end of April 1992 or beginning of May 1992 when Muslims
1 were prepared to leave Kozluk." And then you explained in your
3 "I told them, that is Karadzic and Krajisnik, that the people in
4 Kozluk were prepared to leave and wanted to leave and that we persuaded
5 them to stay."
6 And that's at page 25 of your statement.
7 So that was the first time; correct?
8 A. No.
9 Q. All right. Then you also stated that you informed -- and this is
10 at page 25 of your 2002 interview. You informed Karadzic and Krajisnik
11 that the Muslims of Kozluk had left, and that departure occurred in June
12 of 1992; right? So --
13 MR. ROBINSON: First?
14 MR. TIEGER: I'll clarify.
15 Q. First, the Muslims wanted to leave in April and May according to
16 you and were persuaded to stay, and according to your statement you
17 informed Karadzic and Krajisnik?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And then the Muslims actually left in June and you informed them
20 of that, so it's two separate occasions; right?
21 A. For the first time, I met Krajisnik and Karadzic face to face in
22 August 2002 about those matters. Before that, I did not have such
23 discussions face to face with them.
24 Q. As I mentioned that's found at page 25 of your 2002 interview.
25 And what you said there, I'm going to quote it again:
1 "The first time that I told them that the people were prepared to
2 leave and wanted to leave and that we persuaded them to stay,
3 I subsequently informed them that the people had left."
4 Now, you also spoke and I'll be tendering those pages from the
5 2002 interview as well --
6 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me.
7 JUDGE KWON: We haven't seen this.
8 MR. TIEGER: Let's call it up.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, let us see them first.
10 Yes, Mr. Robinson?
11 MR. ROBINSON: I think the witness should be given a chance to
12 comment on and to answer questions whenever Mr. Tieger makes a statement
13 like that before moving on, otherwise he's just making closing
15 JUDGE KWON: That is why I wanted to see them.
16 We will not broadcast this.
17 MR. TIEGER: Yes, page 25 of the English and B/C/S on page 23.
18 Page 25 of the English and page 23 of the B/C/S. And the second
19 paragraph of the English we see the portion that I quoted for you before
20 where you indicate that you had discussions with them. Whenever there
21 was an opportunity, you would tell them what was happening. The first
22 time was when they were prepared to leave but didn't, and as you made
23 clear in your statement and in your statement that was in late April,
24 early May, and then you subsequently informed them subsequently two
25 different times that the people had left; correct? That's what you said
1 in 2002 back when these events were fresher in your memory.
2 A. It may be possible that I said so but it is incorrect.
3 MR. TIEGER: I tender that, Mr. President, and
4 [overlapping speakers]
5 JUDGE KWON: Then what is correct, Mr. Witness?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that I spoke to
7 Karadzic and Krajisnik face to face in August 1992, when I arrived at the
8 commission, and then we discussed it. Before that, I sent them
9 information through Deputy Simic and Dragan Micic.
10 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Shall we add this page to Exhibit P6369?
11 MR. TIEGER: Yes, that's fine, Mr. President.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I intervene in the transcript?
14 There is a matter of translation. It reads, "After the situation in
15 Kozluk, I spoke to Karadzic and Krajisnik about what was going on." It
16 is in the past. Whereas in the English we have the present continuous
17 tense, [In English] "... about what was happening."
18 JUDGE KWON: I don't follow you, Mr. -- what page, what line are
19 you talking about?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What we have on the screen, in the
21 Serbian language, it is in the past, that is to say that he reported
22 after --
23 JUDGE KWON: Could you make reference to the page and line
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 23 in Serbian, 25 in English.
1 In English it is line -- it's the first sentence of the second paragraph
2 actually. One is the past tense, and the other one should be the past
3 continuous tense. In English, "about what is happening," it would have
4 been properly translated had it said "what is happening" in Serbian, but
5 this way it's a mistranslation.
6 JUDGE KWON: You're talking about the exhibit, not the
7 transcript? I don't see much problem in the document. If you find the
8 translation to be problematic there is a procedure you may take. Shall
9 we continue?
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President.
11 Q. Let's turn to what you stated -- yes, Witness?
12 A. I would like to provide an explanation, if possible. Of course,
13 I received what you have in your hands now, and I read it. I'm saying
14 something to you now that is very important in terms of clarifying what
15 we are discussing now and that's why I'm telling you about it now.
16 Mr. President, I'm here under oath and I have to tell the truth.
17 Mr. Krajisnik, wishing to review his case, asked me to sign certain
18 statements for him and answer certain questions for him, and he sent me
19 some documents that speak about when it was possible that he, I, and
20 Karadzic saw each other face to face, and he proved to me exactly that
21 that was at that moment that I referred to. That is to say I could not
22 speak to them face to face before -- before August 1992, but I did see
23 Mr. Karadzic in Zvornik at the meeting that was held in the
24 Municipal Assembly, and I saw Mico Stanisic in Sekovici.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 MR. TIEGER:
2 Q. And at a minimum, Witness, according to you, as we see at page 22
3 of today's transcript, you sent Karadzic and Krajisnik information about
4 what was happening in Zvornik through Simic and Micic. That's what you
5 said today. And you stated in your 2002 interview that when you told
6 Karadzic about what was happening to the Muslims of Djulici, who had been
7 detained at Karakaj and later killed, that he said he was familiar with
8 the situation and that Dragan Micic had already informed him; correct?
9 A. Dragan Micic could not have informed him about Djulici, but
10 Dragan Micic did inform him, I know that for sure, about what happened in
11 the beginning of 1992. Now, whether Dragan Micic could have known that
12 he or -- that they had been killed or not, and how many had been killed,
13 I'm not sure of that because I didn't know myself.
14 Q. Page 26 of the 2002 statement, please, which is 22549, better go
15 into private -- no, we don't need to go into private session for this.
16 Okay. At the top of the page you're discussing -- again Marko Pavlovic
17 telling you about the separation and detention of men for purposes of
18 exchange; then your information that you learned that they had been
19 detained, not only detained but maltreated and killed; you told Karadzic
20 and Krajisnik about that, I told them about the moving out the following
21 day when I went to Pale; there is a discussion about Karadzic's questions
22 concerning that, I told him about what was happening in that area and
23 what was the situation with the paramilitaries, he said that he was
24 familiar with the situation and that the representative Dragan Micic from
25 Bijeljina had already informed him. Okay. That's what you said in 2002,
1 11 years ago, about Mr. Karadzic being informed by Mr. Micic; correct?
2 A. Yes. But I did not talk to him at that point in time.
3 Q. I just wanted to turn to what you said specifically on tape about
4 what you explained to Mr. Karadzic about the fate of the people who had
5 been detained, maltreated and killed. And you said --
6 JUDGE KWON: I wonder whether the witness had the opportunity to
7 read out the paragraph in full. Did you read it?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see where this is, which
9 paragraph is this all about?
10 JUDGE KWON: Let's ensure that the witness is following.
11 MR. TIEGER: It's page 25 of the B/C/S. In approximately the
12 middle of the page.
13 JUDGE KWON: According to this document, it says:
14 "Karadzic said it wasn't allowed to happen, that any of our
15 official representatives take part in pressurising people to leave. He
16 did not support what was happening, but if the situation was so
17 unbearable that people wanted to leave voluntarily then it was better
18 that they survive than be killed. Thinking about the paramilitaries."
19 What does it mean, Mr. Witness?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Where is that paragraph? Which
21 paragraph is this?
22 JUDGE KWON: I think it's at the end of the same paragraph,
23 but --
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance? In
25 Serbian, it's the third paragraph, the second half of the third paragraph
1 from the top.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's page 30, as far as I can see,
3 that I have here.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now the cursor is on that
5 paragraph. If it's the same system.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Here what I have says, "When
7 I heard these people were killed...," et cetera.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, and it's around the middle of
9 that paragraph.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You see, there is a situation here
11 that is confusing. What I said up here, this is what it says:
12 "When I heard that these people were killed, I felt bad about
13 that. I told Karadzic and Krajisnik about this, the first time I talked
14 to them afterwards. The first time I talked to them afterwards."
15 Further on, it says down here he said that he was aware of the
16 situation and that he had already been informed about that by Dragan
17 Micic. So this is different from what is being claimed that I talked to
18 Karadzic immediately after these events. The first time I had the
19 opportunity to talk about them I told them about him, and I told Simic
20 when they have the opportunity to go to Pale and they had opportunities
21 like that more often I told them to tell them about what had happened.
22 MR. TIEGER:
23 Q. Let's be clear. First of all, I tender that but let's be -- and
24 then I'm going to move on to another reflection of your same discussion
25 about what you informed the leadership?
1 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll add this page as well to
2 Exhibit P6369 which is under seal in my understanding. Yes.
3 Yes, Mr. Tieger?
4 MR. TIEGER: All right. And he further discussed the --
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
6 Yes, Mr. Karadzic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the translation is also
8 incorrect. The translation into English, [In English] And I told
9 Karadzic and Krajisnik about his, means --
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, are you referring to the exhibit?
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the exhibit was mistranslated.
12 JUDGE KWON: Let's not discuss the translation issue unless it is
13 very important. Consult Mr. Robinson how to deal with those issues. For
14 planning purpose, how much longer would you need, Mr. Tieger?
15 MR. TIEGER: Well, if I get -- depends on this last part. I'm
16 certainly trying to finish by the end of this session, Mr. President.
17 I'll do my best.
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
19 MR. TIEGER:
20 Q. You also discussed what you told the leadership in your 2003
21 taped interview and what you said then, and let's turn to page 194 of the
22 2003 interview - sorry about the delay - when you said, "I had informed,"
23 and this again as we see from the previous page at 193, about the people
24 from KTS who had been taken to Celopek:
25 "I had informed Mr. Karadzic earlier when those people were
1 detained, and then after hearing that they were killed, I took the first
2 opportunity to inform Karadzic that they had been killed."
3 We can see that that's 65 ter 2250, please, page 194. And with
4 the assistance of the usher if this could be provided to the witness,
5 it's the B/C/S, if Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic want to see it quickly.
6 And, Witness, I'll tell you that's not the only time in your interview
7 where you make clear there were -- that you informed Mr. Karadzic, both
8 when you learned that they had been detained and then when you learned
9 that they had been killed, that is two occasions. At page 210, you were
10 asked, you were telling me you found out about the --
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's deal with this one by one.
12 MR. TIEGER: Okay. All right.
13 Q. So, Witness, it's correct that in 2003 you stated that you
14 informed Mr. Karadzic twice, first when people were detained and then
15 after they were killed; right?
16 A. No. That's not correct. That is not correct.
17 Q. Two things then, first of all, you did say that; right? It's
18 right there on tape.
19 A. Maybe I said it but it's not correct. I wasn't right.
20 Q. All right. And then you said it again at page 210, let's turn to
21 page 210, please.
22 THE ACCUSED: It's not broadcast, no?
23 JUDGE KWON: I don't think so.
24 MR. TIEGER:
25 Q. The bottom of the page you were telling me that you found out
1 that people were being detained at the technical school and you told
2 Mr. Karadzic about this and you've also found out that they had been
3 killed, and again you told Mr. Karadzic about this, and one more occasion
4 quickly, and I'll ask you about both --
5 JUDGE KWON: But we do not have B/C/S page.
6 MR. TIEGER: Oh, we will find that in just a moment,
7 Mr. President. The problem is that the B/C/S is not compiled in the same
8 manner as the -- because these are separate tapes as the English and so
9 it's on separate documents.
10 JUDGE KWON: But we have the B/C/S of 249 pages. But you don't
11 have the reference number to the page, the correct page numbers?
12 MR. TIEGER: I have it as B/C/S page 5 -- excuse me, B/C/S page 4
13 through 5 of T 0001867 of 65 ter 22550. And again we have hard copies
15 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
16 MR. TIEGER:
17 Q. So, there, sir, you -- when asked whether you told Mr. Karadzic
18 when you found out people were being detained and then you informed him,
19 and then again after you found out that they had been killed you again
20 informed him. You said, Yes. And then you continue on page 211, when
21 you were asked whether you told Mr. Krajisnik too, you said, In the first
22 case, yes, Krajisnik was there when I was telling Karadzic about the
23 detention part, and on the second occasion, when I spoke to Karadzic,
24 Krajisnik was not present, and I talked to him about it on the later
1 So those are three separate excerpts from your taped interview in
2 2003, 11 years ago much closer to these events, when you explicitly
3 indicated that you spoke to Mr. Karadzic about the events in Kozluk on
4 two occasions -- not Kozluk, events referring to KTS. We already dealt
5 with Kozluk before. That's what you explained 11 years ago, right, that
6 there were -- that you advised him about people being detained and then
7 you advised him about people being killed.
8 A. Have you put your question?
9 Q. It's correct that 11 years ago, that was your position; right?
10 You got the document right in front of you. Or do you dispute that
11 that's what you said?
12 A. I do not dispute that I said that but I was not right if I said
13 that. The first time I saw them face to face was in August 1992.
14 I provided all information through Branko Simic and Dragan Micic.
15 MR. TIEGER: I tender those portions, Mr. President.
16 JUDGE KWON: Could you identify the page numbers in English? Can
17 you make sure to upload the correct B/C/S version as well.
18 MR. TIEGER: Yes. It's page 1 -- I think it's 193 through 194
19 and 210 through 211 in English and the corresponding pages in B/C/S.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will admit them under seal.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6374, under seal, Your Honours.
22 JUDGE KWON: Together with the first page, cover page.
23 MR. TIEGER: Okay.
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. One supplementary question.
25 Mr. Witness, there are other ways to report to Mr. Karadzic other than
1 tete-a-tete meeting. Then when you say it was only in August 1992, you
2 had -- you met Mr. Karadzic for the first time, do you exclude that there
3 was -- there were any other kind of meetings earlier than that?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I explained it a moment ago that
5 I saw Mr. Karadzic at the end of June at a meeting in Zvornik but I did
6 not speak to him face to face. This was at the meeting. Now, why am I
7 saying face to face? I'm saying that because that means that I could
8 directly speak about a certain matter, directly, not indirectly through
9 other persons. That is to say I spoke about that, I did not report about
10 that or provide information because that would mean through other
12 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
13 MR. TIEGER: Mr. President, I see given my effort to finish by
14 the end of the session I'd have five minutes left, I would ask for an
15 early break. Let me try to pare down what I've got and be as efficient
16 as possible in the limited time I think the Court would be willing to
17 give me, if you don't mind if that would be of some assistance, otherwise
18 I wouldn't finish in five minutes but I would like to try to do my best
19 to accommodate the Court's concerns about time.
20 JUDGE KWON: I have no difficulty with taking an early break but
21 how much -- how much would you need?
22 MR. TIEGER: Certainly no more than 15 minutes but I'm going to
23 try to be less than that if I can. So that's what I'll try to do during
24 the break.
25 JUDGE KWON: We will have a break for half an hour and resume at
2 --- Recess taken at 10.26 a.m.
3 --- On resuming at 10.59 a.m.
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson?
5 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to introduce
6 to the Chamber Flavia Romiti, an intern from Rome, Italy, who is joining
7 us for this session.
8 JUDGE KWON: Probably Mr. Tieger should introduce the new team
10 MR. TIEGER: Yes, Mr. President, in this case, someone who needs
11 no introduction to the Bench, Mr. Mr. McCloskey will be assisting us with
12 the next examination.
13 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, Mr. McCloskey.
14 Yes, please continue, Mr. Tieger.
15 MR. TIEGER: Thank you, Mr. President. We will need to go into
16 private session.
17 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
18 [Private session]
11 Pages 39385-39387 redacted. Private session.
7 [Open session]
8 MR. TIEGER:
9 Q. Finally, Witness, I wanted to show you one last document, that's
10 65 ter 24968, and direct your attention to the second page in B/C/S, the
11 second-to-last paragraph on that page?
12 JUDGE KWON: We are in open session.
13 MR. TIEGER: Sorry, sorry, let's go into closed session, please.
14 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
15 [Private session]
11 Page 39389 redacted. Private session.
19 [Open session]
20 THE REGISTRAR: We are now in open session, Your Honour.
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could the Prosecutor's microphone please be
22 switched off?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Witness, here I have a statement of Mr. Fadil Banjanovic. The
1 ERN number is 0217378.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we briefly go into
3 closed session? [In English] could we go to private session, please.
4 [Private session]
11 Pages 39392-39403 redacted. Private session.
24 [Open session]
25 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page, I think, 21?
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Did Mr. Pavlovic submit a report to anyone in your municipality?
4 A. I don't know whether he submitted the report or not. In any
5 case, he was frequently invited to attend the sessions of the interim
7 Q. How do you interpret an item in this document which states that
8 he informed the Federal Secretariat of National Defence? I think we find
9 it in -- I think it was on the page that was shown and admitted.
10 JUDGE KWON: Was it not the last --
11 MR. TIEGER: I believe that's right.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Marko Pavlovic. Let me find it in the Serbian. Yes, there it
14 is. Number 10. Major Marko Pavlovic informed the security and
15 intelligence service about the execution. Did you know that he was
16 reporting to the Federal Secretariat for National Defence?
17 A. I didn't know he was reporting to them. A moment ago, when
18 examined by the Prosecutor, I stated my conviction that he did belong to
19 one of the federal security organs.
20 Q. Thank you. On page 13, there was discussion about whether they
21 were forced to leave, the Muslims, that is. Were the authorities part of
22 that coercion, so to say? Did it exert pressure or why were they forced
23 to leave?
24 A. If you mean the interim government, they certainly did not coerce
25 these people, but the circumstances under which these people lived were
1 more than bad. It is these circumstances that forced people to move. If
2 speaking of any kind of coercion, in terms of people coercing them, then
3 it is the paramilitaries who often arrested people there and did other
4 things that caused great fear among them.
5 Q. Thank you. On page 5, it was put to you that Radmilo Bogdanovic,
6 minister of the interior of Serbia, or Yugoslavia, was the person in
7 question. In 1994, was Mr. Bogdanovic minister?
8 A. I don't know whether he was minister, but it was Mr. Bogdanovic
9 in the photograph.
10 Q. Thank you. Do you remember that Mr. Bogdanovic resigned after
11 the demonstrations in 1991?
12 A. Yes, I remember.
13 Q. Thank you. Yesterday, on page 89, the following was put to you,
14 that there were no conditions for dividing Zvornik because of the fact
15 that it was mixed, was Bosnia as a whole mixed, and were there conditions
16 for it to secede from Yugoslavia?
17 A. Bosnia was mixed, and the former Yugoslavia was also mixed. The
18 secession of Bosnia from Yugoslavia was a very risky option because three
19 peoples live in Bosnia. Before this state was reformed, it was not
20 possible to speak about any kind of democratic secession from the former
21 federal state.
22 Q. Thank you. An ethnic map was shown to you, and symbols or,
23 rather, circles and dots depict the ethnic distribution there. We'll try
24 to find the map that will display this more accurately. Can you tell us
25 whether the Serbs took over the entire municipality of Zvornik? Are
1 there two municipalities of Zvornik today and who controlled what during
2 the war?
3 A. Serbs did not take over the entire municipality of Zvornik. To
4 this day, there is a Muslim part of the municipality around Sapna, and it
5 functions, it rather has functioned from the beginning of the war until
6 this day. That is the Muslim municipality of Zvornik.
7 Q. Thank you. 1D0672, could we please have that? While we are
8 waiting, do you remember what our position was with regard to life
9 together, and do you remember the agreement with the Muslims, with
10 Zulfikarpasic and the panel discussion that he and I had in Zvornik?
11 A. I remember from the very beginning from when the multi-party
12 elections were held in Bosnia, when a government was formed on the basis
13 of consensus reached by the three peoples then. I remember full well
14 everything that preceded the war. As for Bosnia leaving the former
15 Yugoslavia, the Serbs in Bosnia asked that Bosnia be reorganised, either
16 to have an assembly with two Chambers where the Chamber of peoples or
17 nations would exercise a right of veto and also to prescribe which
18 decisions had to be reached at assembly level, or the other proposal was
19 to have a different kind of organisation like Switzerland, and on that
20 basis Bosnia could be separated from the former state. Also, there were
21 attempts, I remember that very well, with Zulfikarpasic to achieve an
22 agreement that could peacefully resolve the situation; that is to say,
23 Bosnia would either remain within the former Yugoslavia, and people would
24 go on living the way they had lived until then, or to have this
25 regionalisation carried out.
1 Q. Thank you. You were following developments in terms of the
2 Lisbon agreement based on the Cutileiro Plan. Did Izetbegovic have the
3 right to ask for independence after he had betrayed our conditio sine qua
4 non? That is to say --
5 JUDGE KWON: Where are we heading? Is this arising from the line
6 of cross-examination of Mr. Tieger?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellency. Mr. Tieger
8 disputed the right to divide Zvornik because it's mixed and there would
9 be minorities. However, as for what is Izetbegovic asked for, a million
10 and a half Serbs would be a minority. If that would be a problem in
11 Zvornik, it would have been far greater a problem in all of Bosnia. But
12 let us enlarge the upper right-hand corner.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger?
14 MR. TIEGER: Well, that wasn't what the cross-examination was
15 about. I didn't dispute the so-called right to divide Zvornik one way or
16 another. I asked about the practical -- the practical consequences and
17 the possibilities of doing so, and based on what the witness had
18 previously said which was about the intermixed nature of Zvornik. Now,
19 the accused is going into a political justification apparently for what
20 in fact happened in Zvornik, which was -- which does not arise from the
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber agrees with Mr. Tieger.
23 I don't have to tell you that your time is limited and use it in a wise
24 manner. Please continue. I'm telling you to move on to another topic.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, would you like the
1 witness to mark Muslim and Serb areas on this map which is different from
2 the other one?
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could the witness
6 please be assisted with a pen.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Mr. Witness, would you please mark this -- or, rather, you see
9 the municipality of Zvornik. You see this thick line. Could you put a
10 circle there around Serb areas and Muslim areas that are separate
11 municipalities nowadays as well?
12 A. I cannot see here exactly where the boundaries of the
13 municipality of Zvornik are.
14 Q. All right. Never mind. Let's give up on this altogether, then.
15 A. But definitely what can be seen here is the following: If the
16 blue areas are Serb areas and the green ones are Muslim areas, then it's
17 not necessary to draw a boundary line. It's obvious what it's like.
18 Q. Thank you. And who has more areas with an ethnic majority?
19 A. No, as far as areas in the municipality of Zvornik are concerned,
20 it is the Serbs who had more land, but as far as population goes, there
21 were more Muslims. But the Serbs owned more of the land there.
22 Q. Thank you. We can have this removed now. We are going to do
23 more drawing some other time. On page 87, it was suggested to you, or
24 cited, that the Serb Municipality of Zvornik wanted to take over control
25 on the ground. On the 14th of February, 1992, was the Serb Municipality
1 of Zvornik supposed to take over Muslim territories and the Muslim
3 A. That was not the objective. The objective of establishing the
4 Serb Municipality of Zvornik was just like the objective of creating the
5 Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, to reach a proper agreement on the
6 peaceful transformation of Bosnia-Herzegovina in order to avoid a
7 conflict and war.
8 Q. Thank you. On page 81, what was quoted to you was that the
9 Crisis Staff had declared a state of war. In relation to the
10 then-existing Law on People's Defence and Self-Protection, could the
11 municipality declare a state of war, a mobilisation, in a situation when
12 it did not have any connections with the federal government?
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger?
14 MR. TIEGER: It may be -- I mean, it is Mr. Karadzic's time, but
15 the choices he's making can be -- have been commented on repeatedly by
16 the Court. In this case, however, the reference to that was simply to
17 place the witness contextually in the context of his statement that was a
18 reference to the paragraph at which he discussed certain things so that
19 was a passing reference to his statement in order to move on to a
20 question about the time that particular time period. It wasn't in any
21 way about that event, and this issue does not arose from cross.
22 JUDGE KWON: I think that statement is fair enough.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. The decisions, then, that were made by the provisional
1 authorities or the interim government, were they against the law or the
2 Law on National Defence, as far as you know?
3 A. As far as I know, according to the Law of the former Federal
4 Republic of Yugoslavia, the municipalities and local communes made their
5 own plans of defence and self-protection and they could operate within
6 their own areas.
7 Q. Thank you. On page 78, you were reminded, Mr. Tieger reminded
8 you, that on the 18th of March --
9 JUDGE KWON: 78?
10 THE ACCUSED: Yesterday. [Interpretation] Yesterday's
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. He reminded you that on the 28th March, agreement was reached
14 regarding the Cutileiro Plan, the Lisbon agreement. Was that the first
15 agreement in this regard, and do you remember when it was agreed for the
16 first time that basically in principle there would be three Bosnias?
17 A. In February, as far as I can remember, 1992, and that preceded
18 the Lisbon agreement.
19 Q. Thank you. On page 75, it was suggested to you that the
20 Crisis Staff was established on the basis of instructions. Muslims and
21 Croats did they receive instructions from the SDS when they established
22 their own Crisis Staffs, or, rather, who was the first to establish
23 Crisis Staffs and when were Crisis Staffs established generally?
24 A. As far as I know in the municipality of Zvornik, the Muslims
25 established their Crisis Staff in the month of December 1991, and
1 actually Crisis Staffs are bodies in which one can obtain information
2 fast and people can assemble their people who are supposed to make a
3 decision. It's a smaller body consultative that can act in five or ten
4 minutes in a crisis situation.
5 Q. Thank you. Would a Crisis Staff be established -- or rather,
6 were instructions of crucial importance for establishing Crisis Staffs?
7 A. An instruction was not crucial in that regard. It was the
8 circumstances involved that were.
9 Q. Thank you. Also, it was suggested to you -- or, rather, it was
10 stated from some statement of yours that the secretary from the SDS was
11 always in a position to establish communication with the field. Can you
12 tell us whether there is any time difference there, difference in terms
13 of periods of time?
14 A. There must be. From the establishment until the outbreak of the
15 war, there were different periods of time. When there would be a crisis
16 situation, then activity would be intensified and if not it would not.
17 Q. Thank you. Although the work of the party was frozen, what were
18 communications like during the first year of the war?
19 A. During the first year of the war, it was exceptionally difficult
20 to communicate. Up until April 1992, it somehow did work but from April
21 onwards, say until September, it was rather difficult.
22 Q. Thank you. And let us conclude. Were you in a position to see
23 for yourself what my views were regarding crimes against civilians, any
24 civilians, but especially Muslim and Croat civilians?
25 A. Yes. In the beginning of the war, this was your first position,
1 you signed that order that all prisoners of war, civilians, should be
2 treated in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, all members of
3 parliament knew that and all military personnel received that order.
4 Q. And apart from the order itself, in various contacts, did you
5 know what my positions were and what my efforts were?
6 A. As far as I know, your position was that the authorities should
7 not exert any pressure against people, that they should help them
8 whenever they can and that people should have a normal life ensured for
9 them, if at all possible, but if circumstances required that somebody
10 leave, then they should be enabled to leave, of course without any kind
11 of pressure.
12 Q. Thank you. As for the agreement with Zulfikarpasic, would we
13 have lived together with Muslims in Bosnia and in Yugoslavia had that
14 come into being?
15 A. Yes, we would have.
16 Q. Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: Are you coming to a close, Mr. Karadzic?
18 THE ACCUSED: Yes, Excellency.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Did you know that I or any other relevant person --
21 JUDGE KWON: Your question starting with "did you know that," it
22 must be leading.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Did I or anybody from the Serbian community in Bosnia-Herzegovina
25 have the intention or take measures to expel Muslims and Croats from our
1 areas or possibly display a genocidal intentions?
2 A. No.
3 Q. What was my reaction when I learned that the people from Kozluk
4 had left?
5 A. You were very sorry about it and you were disappointed. In the
6 talks that followed, I noticed that you were sorry to hear of any mass
7 departure of population.
8 Q. Did I ever support crimes against Muslims or Croats?
9 A. No. I haven't heard of that.
10 Q. And my last question, Witness: Did you know what kind of
11 measures I took against paramilitaries specifically in your municipality,
12 but more generally too?
13 A. I think that you played an important part in sending that unit
14 that arrested the paramilitaries. Moreover, the appointment of
15 Commander Pandurevic was a good stabilising measure for the Zvornik area
16 because as a result nobody who carried arms could move about the
17 municipality uncontrolled.
18 Q. Thank you, Witness.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No more questions.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Tieger?
21 MR. TIEGER: Can I raise one question arising from the last
22 couple of questions in connection with sending in -- in connection with
23 the paramilitaries?
24 MR. ROBINSON: Why wasn't that covered on cross-examination?
25 That's mentioned in the statement.
1 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Tieger?
2 MR. TIEGER: Well, there is lots of things that -- I obviously
3 have to make a judgement call about what to do in cross-examination,
4 given the time. This is now specifically referenced. I just want to
5 raise one point in that regard because Mr. Karadzic specifically focused
6 on it as a matter arising out of cross, kind of funny to say he's able to
7 redirect about matters arising out of cross and then claim that I can't
8 go into it because it didn't arise in cross. A little bit paradoxical.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will allow you to put the question.
10 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
11 Further cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:
12 Q. In connection with Mr. Karadzic's last question about the
13 measures he took against paramilitaries in Zvornik, you were aware,
14 Witness, were you not, that the action taken against paramilitaries only
15 occurred after Minister of Information Ostojic was stopped and abused at
16 a check-point and complained very angrily about that -- angrily and
17 publicly about that at, among other things I think you indicated, an
18 assembly session; right?
19 A. That was one of the incidents that happened.
20 MR. TIEGER: Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I contribute to more precision?
22 It follows from this question.
23 JUDGE KWON: Just one question, Mr. Karadzic.
24 Further re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
25 Q. [Interpretation] Was that a decisive incident and was it only
1 then that the preparations for the arrest of the paramilitaries began?
2 A. No. The preparations began much earlier.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That concludes your evidence,
5 Mr. Witness. On behalf of the Chamber, I'd like to thank you for your
6 coming to The Hague to give it. You are free to go, but we will rise all
7 together. We will take a break now for 45 minutes and resume at 10 past
9 [The witness withdrew]
10 --- Recess taken at 12.22 p.m.
11 [The witness entered court]
12 --- On resuming at 1.15 p.m.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson?
14 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President. I'd like to introduce
15 to the Chamber Beatris Spasova from Bulgaria who is working as an intern
16 for our team and will join us this session.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 Yes, Mr. McCloskey?
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, and good afternoon, Mr. President,
20 Your Honours. I have with me today Edward Jeremy to assist.
21 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Would the witness make the solemn
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
24 speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
25 WITNESS: LJUBOMIR BOROVCANIN
1 [Witness answered through interpreter]
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Borovcanin, please be seated and make
3 yourself comfortable. So if the counsel representing Mr. Borovcanin
4 could introduce herself?
5 MS. CMERIC: Yes, good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours,
6 Tatjana Cmeric appearing today for Mr. Borovcanin.
7 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. Mr. Borovcanin, probably you are well
8 aware of this, but before you commence your evidence I must draw your
9 attention to a certain rule that we have here at the Tribunal. That is
10 Rule 90(E). Under this rule, you may object to answering any question
11 from Mr. Karadzic, from the Prosecution or even from the Judges if you
12 believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence. In
13 this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount to
14 an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that
15 might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.
16 However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a
17 consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that
18 the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.
19 However, in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony
20 compelled in such circumstances would not be used in any case that might
21 be laid against you for any offence save and except the offence of giving
22 false testimony.
23 Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Borovcanin?
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Judge, I understood, but
25 I request additional clarification. Does this pertain only to this
1 Tribunal or to all courts in the world?
2 JUDGE KWON: I should say it's -- that includes all courts in the
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
8 Q. [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Borovcanin.
9 A. Good afternoon, Mr. President.
10 Q. I don't know if there were ranks at your time and I don't know
11 which rank you held, I will only address you as Mr. Borovcanin.
12 A. That's all right.
13 Q. Did you give a statement to the Defence team?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Thank you for pausing. That's how we should continue and speak
16 slowly for everything to be recorded.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we get 1D07375A?
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Mr. Borovcanin, do you see that statement of yours before you on
20 the screen?
21 A. Yes. This is the first page. This is it.
22 Q. Thank you. Did you read and sign this statement?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let us show the last page to the witness for him to identify his
1 A. Yes, this is my signature.
2 Q. Thank you. Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said
3 to the Defence team?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. There is no need to correct anything, right, to correct any
6 information such as dates and what have you?
7 A. Everything is all right.
8 Q. Thank you. If I were to ask you the same questions today in this
9 courtroom, would your answers essentially be the same?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this statement
12 under Rule 92 ter.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, there are four associated exhibits.
14 We would ask that each of them be added to our 65 ter list as we hadn't
15 interviewed Mr. Borovcanin at the time we filed that list.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. McCloskey, do you have any objection to the
17 admission of Rule 92 ter statement as well as associated exhibits?
18 MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, the only item that I am concerned
20 about is the third one, which appears in para 13. I'm not sure if it is
21 relevant. Having said that, the document -- the statement can be
22 understood without the document as well. So the statement as well as the
23 other three documents will be admitted. Shall we assign the numbers now?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. The 92 ter statement will be
25 Exhibit D3659; 65 ter 03815 will be Exhibit D3660; 65 ter 03816 will be
1 Exhibit D3661; and 65 ter 04736 will be Exhibit D3662.
2 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
3 Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I will now read out a
5 short summary of Mr. Ljubomir Borovcanin's statement in English.
6 [In English] Ljubomir Borovcanin was deputy commander of the
7 Special Police Brigade of the Republika Srpska Ministry of Interior
8 during July 1995. On 10th of July, 1995, while engaged in the Sarajevo
9 battlefield he received an order designating him as commander of a MUP
10 unit to be dispatched to the area of Srebrenica.
11 On 13th of July, 1995, Mr. Borovcanin was joined in Bratunac by
12 the journalist Zoran Petrovic who accompanied him during his movement
13 over the next two days and recorded some of the events.
14 Sometime before 4.00 p.m. on 13th of July, 1995, Mr. Borovcanin
15 was in the Sandici area when General Mladic addressed the Bosnian Muslim
16 prisoners who were gathered there. Mr. Borovcanin heard General Mladic
17 tell them that they were waiting for buses and that they would be
18 transported to their families in Kladanj and Tuzla. He believed that
19 General Mladic was sincere and that this was what would happen. He knew
20 of no plan to kill prisoners.
21 Later that afternoon, as Mr. Borovcanin was driving from Sandici
22 towards Zvornik, he was informed over a Motorola that something terrible
23 had happened at the -- and that he should return. When he returned and
24 passed by the Kravica warehouse, he observed about 20 to 30 bodies laying
25 on the ground in front of the warehouse building. He stopped on the road
1 just past the warehouse and at the junction of the road and the driveway
2 into the warehouse. He was told that one of the Muslim prisoners
3 grabbed -- had grabbed a police officer's rifle and killed him. He was
4 also told that another officer had then struggled to take the rifle from
5 the prisoner and that his hands burned in the process. He was also told
6 that some Muslim prisoners had been killed as a result of this incident
7 and those were the bodies that he had seen.
8 Mr. Borovcanin reported the incident to the Bratunac Brigade of
9 the VRS. Later that evening, he spoke with Miroslav Deronjic, who had
10 been appointed civilian commissioner for Srebrenica, about what had
11 happened at the Kravica warehouse. On 14th of July, 1995, Mr. Borovcanin
12 also discussed the incident with Deputy Minister of Interior Tomo Kovac.
13 On 15th of July, 1995, he went to the Zvornik Brigade command. During an
14 informal conversation there, someone mentioned that the prisoners were
15 being brought to Zvornik from Bratunac. There was no indication that any
16 prisoners would be killed. After this meeting, Mr. Borovcanin proceeded
17 to the area of combat and remained there for the next few days. He had
18 no involvement in or information about the killing of the prisoners in
19 Zvornik. Mr. Borovcanin had no knowledge of any plan whatsoever to
20 execute prisoners from Srebrenica.
21 From everything he knew -- he knows about the attitude and
22 character of Radovan Karadzic, he would find it extremely difficult to
23 believe that President Karadzic would agree to the killing of any
24 prisoners. There was no mention of those killings in any of
25 Mr. Borovcanin's written reports or in any Ministry of Interior reports
1 which he read. He never discussed those matters with President Karadzic.
2 And that is summary. I do not have questions for Mr. Borovcanin
3 at that moment.
4 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Mr. Borovcanin, you have -- as you have
5 noted, your evidence-in-chief in this case has been admitted in writing,
6 that is through your written statement. Now you will be cross-examined
7 by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.
8 Yes, Mr. McCloskey.
9 Cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:
10 Q. Mr. Borovcanin, we've just heard the president remind us all of
11 Mladic's now-famous speech at Sandici where he told the prisoners that
12 nothing would happen to them. As you sit here today, can you acknowledge
13 to us and admit that you now know General Mladic was lying?
14 A. I would like to make a correction here. I don't think I ever
15 said to them that nothing -- or, rather, that I was informed that nothing
16 would happen to them. He told me that he would be -- they would be
17 transported to the territory controlled by the BH Army. And if I can
18 tell today whether he was lying or not, well, my reply is no, I cannot
19 say that I did -- that I do. And there is no reason for me to change my
21 Q. You don't believe all those people at the meadow were taken and
22 summarily executed?
23 A. I believe and know that they were taken away and probably a
24 certain number or maybe even a large number was executed.
25 Q. In your statement, you do not acknowledge that you or your men
1 committed any crimes associated with your work at Srebrenica. Do you
2 stand by that, that you and your men committed no crimes during that
3 period, 11 through 16 July?
4 A. When you interviewed me for the first time, that's what I said.
5 I was sure of that. I know, however, that at least two members of my
6 unit took part in the incident at Kravica, that is at the very beginning.
7 After so many years, after the experience of my trial --
8 Q. Excuse me for interrupting, but it was a very simple question:
9 Today, are you claiming that you committed no crimes associated with
11 A. No, I'm not claiming that.
12 Q. Tell us what crimes you committed. Tell us what you did. How
13 many people did you kill?
14 A. I personally?
15 Q. How many people did you kill? Did you take part in killing?
16 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, he's asking three or
17 four questions. He needs to give the witness a chance to answer one and
18 then put another one to him after that.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY: I can make that a better question.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. How many murders did you contribute to in some way?
23 A. The best answer to your question can be found in the judgement
24 that was read out to me here in this courtroom, and I was about to say as
25 much when you interrupted me. During the trial, it was established that
1 a certain number of people under my command took part in some actions,
2 including murder. I cannot speak about numbers because I don't know them
3 even today.
4 Q. So you're acknowledging that your conviction was righteous and
5 you admit what is found in that conviction?
6 A. The fact that I didn't appeal the judgement, and neither did you,
7 commits me as well as everybody else to accept the facts from the
8 judgement, and the part concerning me.
9 Q. Sir, there is a difference between accepting judgement and
10 admitting it to be true, admitting you did those things. Let me make it
11 simpler. Let's go to 65 ter 25194. And as we are waiting I think you'll
12 agree that you were convicted in this courtroom of aiding and abetting by
13 omission the crime of murder, a violation of the laws and customs of war;
14 extermination, a crime against humanity; persecution, a crime against
15 humanity; and you were convicted for aiding and abetting forcible
16 transfer related to the Muslims of Potocari; you were also convicted of
17 7(3) for your failure to punish the perpetrators of the Kravica killing.
18 Now, I want to look at paragraph 1584 in the judgement, that
19 speaks to the extermination count as a crime against humanity:
20 "The Trial Chamber has found that at least 1.000 men and boys
21 from Srebrenica were murdered at the Kravica warehouse."
22 Do you admit that to be true?
23 A. I cannot confirm that this is true. I can speak about the part
24 that was mentioned in my statements, too, namely what I saw. Everything
25 else is about facts and proving facts, and with time these numbers
2 Q. So you deny this first sentence in this judgement?
3 A. No. I do not deny it, but I don't think it refers exclusively to
5 Q. "The Trial Chamber has found that Borovcanin was present on and
6 patrolling the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road on 13 July." You admit that?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. "He knew that hundreds of prisoners had surrendered or were
9 caught at Sandici meadow earlier that day." You knew that?
10 A. Yes, I knew that. That is not contested.
11 Q. "And therefore, that in the evening Kravica warehouse was crammed
12 with Bosnian Muslim prisoners." Do you admit that?
13 A. I accept what I saw, that is what I know; that is the so-called
14 first incident after which 20 to 30 Muslims were killed. I saw that --
15 or, rather, I saw the consequences of the incident, and it was recorded
16 by a camera -- with a camera. And --
17 Q. Are you denying it?
18 A. I don't know what I'm denying according to you.
19 Q. Sir, you saw the same evidence the Judges saw. Perhaps I can
20 remind you of a bit of it, the two survivors that were in both sides of
21 that warehouse that were taken there during the day, they didn't walk by
22 piles of corpses, the forensic evidence, all the other evidence that
23 these people were crammed into that warehouse. Do you agree with the
24 Chamber with that conclusion, that it was jammed full of prisoners?
25 A. I cannot say that it was jammed full, but it is certainly true
1 that there was a certain number of prisoners.
2 Q. There was a certain number of prisoners in that warehouse. Is
3 that what you're finally admitting?
4 A. Yes, but why finally? I said it right away.
5 Q. "Further, his omission with respect to the duty to protect
6 related to this extensive number of prisoners detained at the Kravica
7 warehouse." You recognise as a police officer and someone who is trained
8 in the Geneva Conventions that you had a duty to protect each and every
9 one of those prisoners?
10 A. My answer to your question will be probably rather lengthy.
11 Q. It's a yes or no. Did you have a duty, sir, under your own
12 training? You can explain always but it's a yes or no question.
13 A. Someone probably could answer it with a yes or no, but I can't,
14 because when I came I did see a number of killed people. But at that
15 point, nothing else was going on. There was no other activity, there was
16 no shooting, and the killings did not place -- take place in continuity.
17 Q. I'm merely asking you, sir, based on your training as a police
18 officer and a combat soldier, did you understood that you have a duty to
19 protect prisoners?
20 A. In general, yes.
21 Q. But not these in particular?
22 A. That's not what I meant. My general duty or the duty of anyone
23 who is keeping prisoners, no matter what their status is, to treat them
24 as such. However, I believe and I assert that the prisoners in question
25 were not exclusively my own -- or, that they were not held by my unit
2 Q. Yes, so you're telling us others are to blame as well. The VRS?
3 A. I think all those who are guilty should be blamed, or all those
4 that there are grounds to hold them responsible. I am certainly one of
5 them, and that is why I was sentenced. I have to say, though, that the
6 facility, the warehouse at Kravica, which has several buildings, is a
7 stand-alone facility and you know it well. It is surrounded by barbed
8 wire. It had its standing crew. It had workers there who were assigned
9 to work duty, and at that moment their status was that of military
10 conscripts. Some of them testified here in the courtroom while others
11 provided statements to other courts and investigators. I managed to find
12 out that there were 13 of them. They were the crew of the
13 agricultural's co-operative in Kravica. They were on duty in the fenced
15 Q. You're blaming the fruit-pickers of the Kravica co-operative now?
16 A. I'm not blaming anyone. That is not my position. However,
17 I think that all angles, all aspects of the event need to be
18 investigated. It is somebody's duty.
19 Q. Would you put the responsibility more on the fruit-pickers and
20 the agricultural workers that were there or your commanders, your
21 commander and the people that are responsible for creating this
23 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me. I'm going to object to that question
24 as being ambiguous, I myself don't understand it in English. I'm not
25 sure how the witness could understand it.
1 JUDGE KWON: Well, if the witness cannot understand the question,
2 he could ask Mr. McCloskey to clarify. Why don't we continue.
3 Can you answer the question, Mr. Borovcanin?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try. I'm not blaming any
5 fruit-pickers, because there were none. No one goes to pick fruit with
6 weapons, at least as far as I know. Due to the circumstances and the
7 situation of that building where the prisoners were, at least we have the
8 issue of divided responsibility on hand.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY:
10 Q. Okay. I'll agree with you on that. Let me continue and ask you
11 about the next phrase in this judgement:
12 "Based on these large numbers," and remember they were speaking
13 of a thousand men and boys, "The Trial Chamber finds that Borovcanin
14 aided and abetted extermination because he knew that his failure to
15 protect the prisoners at Kravica warehouse would lead to a killing on a
16 large scale."
17 Do you agree with the Chamber's conclusion? They are speaking
18 directly to you.
19 A. I said I accept the judgement in that part which refers to me.
20 Q. You don't have much choice but to accept it when you're in
21 custody. My point is: Do you admit it? Is it a proper and a truthful
22 and correct conclusion?
23 A. In my view, this is a very complex legal formulation which is
24 beyond my competence and ability to interpret it.
25 Q. Is your duty to protect someone in your custody from butchers?
1 Is that your duty? Not very complex.
2 A. It is my duty and obligation. All of the regulations say so.
3 However, I say that after the first incident, the people who were in the
4 warehouse were not under my authority.
5 Q. Then you disagree with the judgement on that point?
6 A. The way I understand the formulation, it departs from your
8 Q. When President Karadzic is in Pale trying to do his job and a
9 police officer, a senior police officer like yourself, comes across a
10 crime that you've now admitted at paragraph, a thousand men and boys,
11 does he not have to know to get his job done, that the VRS or whoever
12 have just murdered large numbers of men and boys on a public road with
13 ICRC, UN forces? Doesn't he need to know that to get his job done?
14 A. When discussing me as a senior police official, at least that's
15 the way it was interpreted to me, at the time of the events that was not
16 my status. However, it bears no large significance. What does bear
17 significance is that at that moment at the time of operation of which
18 I learned later was called Krivaja 95 was completely outside of the chain
19 of command of the Ministry of the Interior. I was inside the system of
20 the unity of command.
21 Q. That's not my question. My question is when a massive crime
22 occurs, a war crime, right in front of practically the international
23 community and the opposing sides who are driving up and down this road,
24 doesn't President Karadzic need to be informed? How can he do his job if
25 you're not telling him that kind of thing? Doesn't he need to be
1 informed? He's not just a potted plant in Pale, is he? My question is:
2 Does he need to be informed?
3 A. First, earlier on you mentioned 1.000 killed people. I couldn't
4 inform him or anyone else because I told you I saw between 20 and 30
5 killed people.
6 Q. Sir, you're talking about yourself again. Right now we are
7 talking about the accused. We all have bosses. Doesn't Karadzic need to
8 be informed of something of this massive scale that you have now admitted
9 from -- doesn't he need to be informed of that to get his job done, yes
10 or no?
11 A. If that was his duty, he should have been informed to carry out
12 his duty properly. Just so that I'm not misunderstood, if that was his
13 duty, in order for him to fulfil that duty properly, he should have been
15 Q. It was his duty to abide by the Geneva Conventions, wasn't it?
16 A. It wasn't only his duty. He cautioned all of his subordinates,
17 reminding them of that obligation and not only in written form.
18 Q. Then why do you say if it is his duty? There is some doubt in
19 your mind that he has a duty to protect hundreds and hundreds of people?
20 Do you have some doubt about that, when you said "if"?
21 A. I was never the president of a state so I'm not familiar with his
22 authority. However, there were different kinds of events during the war,
23 and I don't believe the president of the republic could react to
24 everything. I'm not saying this would not be one such event, but there
25 were institutions in place that were charged with it.
1 Q. Are you suggesting he doesn't have responsibility over such a
3 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, I let this go for a
4 while but this witness was not called as an expert, and I think that
5 these questions now are going beyond anything that he could be expected
6 to answer as a fact witness.
7 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
8 We can move on, Mr. McCloskey.
9 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
10 Q. Let's go back to some simpler topics: Your background. You're
11 from Bratunac; correct?
12 A. Not correct. I lived in Bratunac for one and a half years out of
13 my 53 years.
14 Q. All right. You were the -- in 1992, you were appointed the
15 komandir of the public security station in Bratunac?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And were you ever proposed to be the chief of the Public Security
18 Service of Bratunac?
19 A. Of the public security station? Is that what you mean?
20 Q. The Public Security Service is the translation I have, the chief
21 of the position, it's different than the komandir, as you know.
22 A. Yes. Chief is the most senior managing position in the station.
23 Komandir is the next person in line. However, I did not respond to your
24 question. Never was I officially proposed, although there were
25 discussions regarding that topic.
1 Q. Were you unofficially proposed?
2 A. There were discussions about it before I was appointed komandir
3 for me to become the chief of station.
4 Q. Did you ever indicate an interest during those years of joining
5 the SDS Main Board in Bratunac?
6 A. No.
7 Q. All right.
8 MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to 65 ter 00603. Should be English
9 page 18, B/C/S page 18.
10 Q. You remember the minutes of the SDS meetings that were at your
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Now we can see that this is from the Bratunac SDS municipal board
14 held on 1 February 1993, and we also see down in that first paragraph
15 that the president of the SDS, Miroslav Deronjic, gave a speech. Was
16 Deronjic the president of the Bratunac SDS?
17 A. Yes, as far as I know. I don't know in what period, but he was.
18 Q. Let's go to page 20 of the English. Should be 20 of the B/C/S as
19 well. We have here a -- those three numbered paragraphs. I won't read
20 it all out but what that -- the minutes pop up so you can see it but it
21 talks about a no confidence vote in the chief of the Public Security
22 Service was carried by the Main Board with 18 votes. And then it goes on
23 to say and the Main Board nominates Ljubisa Borovcanin who currently
24 works as a commander of the Public Security Service as a candidate. So
25 you were an SDS candidate. The SDS proposed you to take over this
1 important job?
2 A. In interpretation I was told that the SDS appointed me but what
3 is proper -- what is the proper meaning is that there was a proposal
4 made. In any case, I know that it was discussed, but following this
5 discussion, the topic was concluded, and it was never discussed again.
6 Q. Sir, this minutes clearly say you were nominated. Were you
7 nominated by the Main Board? You can see it in black and white.
8 A. It is a conclusion. I know how it turned out. I never became
9 the chief. On the other hand, it wasn't the SDS that appointed either
10 commanders or chiefs. They did have a certain role to play in the
11 procedure of nomination, and obviously someone made use of that
13 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
14 Yes, Mr. Karadzic?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness is being told that he
16 was nominated, in lines 11 and 12. In the original we have "nominated"
17 which means "appointed." I'm afraid the translation is inadequate
18 because to be proposed and appointed is not the same. It may seem so
19 from the transcript so far. But is this nomination in the sense of
20 appointment or only someone being made candidate?
21 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We cannot find the
22 adequate excerpt in the original and the text is handwritten and
23 difficult to read out quickly.
24 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Now I understand the context, so shall we
25 move on?
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
2 Q. If we go on in the minutes, maybe you can just help us save some
3 time. On 17th of February, 1994, the minutes say that you were attending
4 a meeting and that they say that you were nominated to the Main Board of
5 the SDS by Miroslav and that Miroslav's nomination was unanimously
6 adopted; is that correct?
7 A. Yes, but I don't have a problem with that. This is known to me.
8 The outcome of this nomination was the same as the first one. I do not
9 have a problem with whether I would have become a member of the SDS.
10 It's not an issue for me. However, I never did become a member of the
12 MR. McCLOSKEY: I would offer this exhibit, it speaks for itself,
13 into evidence.
14 MR. ROBINSON: No objection to the pages concerning the 3rd
15 of February that were referred to by the witness.
16 JUDGE KWON: But do you have the 65 ter number?
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: 00603. I would also like pages 45 in the English
18 and 40 in the B/C/S, which refer to the nomination and that it was
19 unanimously adopted which I believe the witness has agreed with.
20 JUDGE KWON: And this one?
21 MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes.
22 JUDGE KWON: Page number?
23 MR. McCLOSKEY: It was page -- excuse me -- the first one page --
24 should be page 18, 19, 20.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 MR. McCLOSKEY: The one that's on the screen.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive them.
3 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit P6377, Your Honours.
4 MR. McCLOSKEY:
5 Q. And so according to these minutes, their proposal to have you on
6 the Main Board was adopted on -- unanimously on 17 February 1994 and I
7 believe you told us that just a few days later, 24 February 1994, you
8 were promoted to the deputy commander of the Special Police Brigade; is
9 that right?
10 A. That is right. If I may, I would like to go back to the previous
11 issue. I don't want to waste your time but it might be useful.
12 Q. Briefly.
13 A. When becoming a party member in the SDS or in any of the bodies
14 of the SDS, then it was under the exclusive authority of the party. In
15 the previous example, when I was made candidate for the position of chief
16 of station or any other position in -- within the MUP, the party could
17 only launch an initiative or provide an opinion. However, the procedure
18 of nomination was launched by the Security Services Centre and it was
19 always sent up to the minister. There is a major difference between the
20 two issues. However, I do not find that anything in both cases is in
22 Q. And your promotion to the deputy commander of the Special Police
23 was obviously assisted by your now membership in the SDS?
24 A. I was never a member of the SDS, so I think this question is not
25 in place.
1 Q. As deputy commander, you had Goran Saric above you, he was head
2 of all these police forces; correct?
3 A. Incorrect. He was commander of the Special Police Brigade, and
4 I was his deputy. It is only one segment of the
5 Ministry of the Interior.
6 Q. And who was his boss, who was Saric's boss at the time?
7 A. The minister of the interior.
8 Q. Who was then acting, Tomo Kovac; right?
9 A. No.
10 Q. The guy you were with on the 14th of July touring Srebrenica
11 wasn't Saric's boss, Tomo Kovac? It's not a trick question.
12 A. Yes, yes, but I'm afraid there is a misunderstanding. You asked
13 me about when I was appointed deputy commander of the
14 Special Police Brigade, and who was Saric's boss at the time and I said
15 it was the minister. That was in 1994. In 1995, which is the year you
16 seem to be referring now, it is true that it was Tomo Kovac who was his
17 boss. However, he was assistant minister.
18 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's correction: Deputy minister.
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. But there was no minister higher than Kovac in July 1995;
21 correct? For all intents and purposes, he was Karadzic's minister of
23 A. He was my minister, that is to say deputy minister of the
25 Q. So Goran Saric, Tomo Kovac, Radovan Karadzic?
1 A. No.
2 Q. Who else? Who am I leaving out?
3 A. You added someone. Goran Saric, Tomo Kovac and then the
4 prime minister. The minister of the interior was a state administrative
5 body. The minister of the interior was a member of the government. It's
6 a completely different body from that of the president of the republic.
7 Q. Talking about individuals, the practical reality of the time.
8 You, Goran Saric, Tomo Kovac, Radovan Karadzic; right?
9 A. For the needs of the indictment, that is excellent but it is not
11 Q. All right. We'll leave that to the Judges.
12 Now, on December 23rd, 1995, you got a big promotion. What was
14 A. On that date, after the signing of the Dayton peace agreement,
15 I was appointed deputy minister or rather deputy chief of police.
16 Q. So roughly five months after your work at the Kravica warehouse
17 you get promoted to a high level position?
18 THE ACCUSED: I object. If it was a jury court I would
19 understand but this is really ridiculous.
20 JUDGE KWON: No. Your intervention is not appropriate,
21 Mr. Karadzic.
22 Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.
23 MR. McCLOSKEY:
24 Q. We are just talking about your promotion. That's not a high
1 A. Yes, high level, but I advanced in the service of the interior
2 step by step. From the very beginning, from the start until the end.
3 This is only -- I mean, well, it doesn't have to be -- well, anyway, it's
4 only logical that somebody is promoted three months after something
5 happened or after four years of warfare.
6 Q. Did you ever promote anyone within your ranks that you know had
7 been involved in murder?
8 A. According to the rules, according to which we worked, I was not
9 authorised, or, rather, it was not within my authority to promote people
10 or to punish people.
11 Q. All right. Let's go to your statement. Well, let me ask you,
12 that promotion, that would have had to have been approved by the
13 president, President Karadzic; correct? If he didn't want you, you
14 wouldn't have been promoted?
15 A. That is not correct formally. Actually, the minister proposes
16 who his assistant ministers are going to be and then they are appointed
17 at government level. As for the decision of appointment, it's signed by
18 the minister and since at the same time it is the position of assistant
19 minister, it is the prime minister, the head of the government, who makes
20 such a decision or decree. I think it's a decree.
21 Q. The question was, had he not wanted you, you wouldn't have had
22 the job; right? I say President Karadzic is the "he."
23 A. Well, I don't know that. First of all, I don't see why he
24 wouldn't want me. I would be angry if that were the case.
25 Q. Well, you've acknowledged to this Court that you knew about your
1 involvement in the murder of thousands of men, and I think you've
2 acknowledged that it would have been important for the president to know
3 that, so if he knew that you were involved in the murder of thousands of
4 men in the way you've been convicted in this Court, that would be a good
5 reason that he wouldn't want you, isn't it?
6 MR. ROBINSON: Excuse me, Mr. President, that question is wrong
7 for about ten reasons. Let's start with, "You've acknowledged to the
8 Court that you knew about your involvement in the murder of thousands of
9 men." I haven't heard anything that he has acknowledged that. And then
10 the rest of it is hypothetical and calling for speculation.
11 MR. McCLOSKEY: I read out the section of the judgement that he
12 agreed with. Now I don't want to --
13 JUDGE KWON: Let's move on.
14 MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't want to quibble over it but --
15 Q. Now, let's go to the evening of 13 July. You acknowledge in your
16 statement that -- and I believe you said to us earlier in your interviews
17 that you were at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters and you saw
18 Miroslav Deronjic there in a heated argument with Ljubisa Beara; is that
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And what were they arguing about?
22 A. Well, as I said earlier, and that was established, they were
23 arguing about the problem or status of the prisoners of war.
24 Q. The many hundreds of prisoners of war that had been brought into
25 Bratunac and put in schools and vehicles all over town?
1 A. I cannot be that precise, but from the context of the
2 conversation, the misunderstanding was, or how should I put this, I
3 cannot say conflict, but there was this discussion. One of them wanted
4 the prisoners to be brought to Bratunac, well, not one of them, Beara,
5 and Miroslav Deronjic was against that. And I don't know what the
6 essence of the misunderstanding was.
7 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could all microphones
8 please be switched off when the witness is speaking? Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I just say something about the
10 transcript before it's gone?
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 85, line 22, it was
13 misrecorded that the witness said that he thought that it was a decree.
14 Actually, he said something that was the opposite, that he thought it was
15 a decision.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have this here.
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you. We can continue.
18 MR. McCLOSKEY:
19 Q. So Beara wanted them into Bratunac. Where did Deronjic want
21 A. No, he was against having them brought to Bratunac so I don't
23 Q. Do you remember what you told me many years ago that Deronjic
24 wanted to send them to Zvornik? Does that help remind you?
25 A. I think there is no need. I think that the context was a bit
1 different, that he was angry. Deronjic was angry because they were
2 sending prisoners from the neighbouring municipalities to him in the
3 municipality of Bratunac and creating a big problem, so he was in favour
4 of seeking a new solution.
5 Q. And what was the new solution that you heard about?
6 A. Well, I cannot say for sure, but it's possible that it was
7 Zvornik that was discussed.
8 Q. Let's go to 03811. This is part of our interview, back in
9 I think it was March 2003.
10 A. 2.
11 Q. Sorry, 2002. If we could have English page 96 and B/C/S page 86.
12 And if we look at the bottom of the page in English, if we look at the
13 entire page, it's where you discuss Rajko Djukic's part of the argument
14 that Deronjic is involved with, then we get to the bottom of the page and
15 I ask you a few lines up:
16 "And you mentioned did you have knowledge of an agreement to send
17 the prisoners out of Bratunac up towards Zvornik?"
18 And you said:
19 "I don't know."
20 And then I said:
21 "Well, you mentioned that the last time I remember, that's why
22 I took a note when you first told us about that."
23 And then you say:
24 "Yes. I said that to Deronjic. I said that Deronjic requested
25 that he ask Beara to move them and to send them to Zvornik."
1 Does that refresh your recollection?
2 A. Well, at that previous answer, I left that possibility open.
3 Q. All right. And at the time you were aware that Deronjic had been
4 appointed a -- some kind of special commissioner by the -- by
5 President Karadzic?
6 A. I'm not sure that I knew then but I did know -- well -- that he
7 held some office.
8 THE ACCUSED: I have to intervene.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpreters read out from the
11 Serbian version "towards Zvornik," "prema Zvorniko," and that is how it
12 was presented to the witness. However, the distinguished Prosecutor says
13 "to Zvornik." It's not the same thing. It is very different. What
14 I said "towards Zvornik" in English was not recorded in the transcript.
15 That is what the translation should be.
16 JUDGE KWON: Well --
17 MR. McCLOSKEY: It's clear what the record is of the interview
18 and what I said, and I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference but
19 that's a fine matter for cross -- or redirect.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Let's continue.
21 MR. McCLOSKEY:
22 Q. About what time in the evening was this at the Bratunac Brigade
23 headquarters, just roughly, that you saw this big argument?
24 A. I would say around 2000 hours, approximately.
25 Q. Okay. Well, that's roughly the time that President Karadzic had
1 a conversation with Miroslav Deronjic over the telephone, I'm sure you
2 remember the intercept, where there is a discussion about this very
3 subject. You remember that? Were you present during that telephone
5 A. I remember such a document that was circulated here but you're
6 asking a lot from me to remember the time. I think, if I remember
7 correctly, that this conversation did not take place in the command of
8 the Bratunac Brigade. Maybe it did. I don't know.
9 Q. You knew what else Ljubisa Beara was up to that night, don't you?
10 A. I don't understand your question.
11 Q. That night, did you know that Ljubisa Beara was working with your
12 friend, according to him, Dragan Mirkovic from the Rad company looking
13 for a way to bury the large number of bodies at the Kravica warehouse?
14 A. You're asking me whether I knew it then?
15 Q. Of course. This Court has heard evidence of Beara's movements
16 and activities in Bratunac and he spoke to a fair number of people about
17 this topic.
18 A. If I remember correctly from the trial, the testimony from the
19 trial, I'd say that these conversations took place after this time, after
20 2000 hours, perhaps around 2100 hours. I do not know that just off the
21 cuff but that's my impression or recollection.
22 Q. Were you present during the argument with Deronjic and Beara
23 about Beara wanting to kill the prisoners at the Ciglana brick factory in
24 Bratunac and Deronjic saying, "No, get them out of here"? Were you
25 present during that particular argument?
1 A. I never heard that.
2 Q. Okay. If we look at your statement, apparently that evening that
3 Deronjic is dealing with Beara, you help -- you give your driver to
4 Deronjic so Deronjic can take him the next day -- or so that your driver
5 can take Deronjic the next day to Pale; right?
6 A. I think that it is somewhat different. It's not that I talked to
7 Deronjic or he talked to me about the driver in the brigade command. He
8 found me subsequently. Now, did I return to the police station, did he
9 ask me for a driver and escort then? I mean this conversation regarding
10 his trip to Pale was not at the command of the Bratunac Brigade.
11 Q. Well, we can go to your statement. It's paragraph 37, and in
12 paragraph 36 there is a discussion at the brigade with Deronjic:
13 "We spoke about what happened at the Kravica warehouse, including
14 the fact that some prisoners had been killed."
15 So I take that to be something you discussed. You say you
16 weren't -- you didn't discuss subsequent killings at the warehouse. And
17 then your next paragraph, 37:
18 "Deronjic told me that he needed to travel to Pale the following
19 day and asked me to provide a driver and escort. I was unable to provide
20 him an escort but I offered him the service of my driver, Nedjo Jovicic.
21 Deronjic accepted and the next day my driver drove him to and from Pale."
22 That's right?
23 A. That is right. That is right. But I would like to clarify this
24 a bit. This conversation or these two events, had they happened in one
25 single place, it wouldn't have been two paragraphs in the statement. It
1 would have been one. It would be logical for paragraph 37 not to exist.
2 These would be two paragraphs of one item, had that been happening at one
4 Q. But you did understand that Mr. Deronjic was -- had information
5 about the Kravica warehouse, he'd been arguing with Beara about
6 prisoners, and your driver took him up to Pale on the 14th; right?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Where in Pale did he take him?
9 A. Well, that I don't know.
10 Q. No idea?
11 A. No. I didn't know at the time.
12 Q. You didn't know he was of course taking him to see
13 President Karadzic?
14 A. I could have assumed such a possibility too but I could not have
15 been sure because actually I didn't know where President Karadzic was,
16 for instance.
17 Q. And you'll agree with me that Miroslav Deronjic was a very
18 intelligent man?
19 A. I agree with you 100 per cent, for the very first time.
20 Q. And he, as a loyal party member and a man with -- given
21 responsibility to be the civilian commissioner, would have reported all
22 he knew of importance to his president, President Karadzic, on the
23 14th of July?
24 A. Now I could guess, speculate.
25 Q. Wouldn't that have been his duty?
1 A. That I don't know.
2 Q. All right. Let's go to one last exhibit. It's Exhibit P4201,
3 it's the drive-by of the Kravica warehouse, but before we play it, you've
4 always acknowledged that you were in the car with Zoran Petrovic when he
5 drove by that scene at the Kravica warehouse; correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And you're driving, I believe, in the direction from Sandici
8 towards Bratunac?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And Petrovic is filming this scene from -- do you know was it the
11 driver's -- excuse me, was it the front seat or the back seat of this
12 vehicle that he was filming from?
13 A. He was sitting on the back seat, on the right-hand side.
14 Q. And you were in the front seat?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And so as we drive by and see this scene, you were seeing the
17 same thing that the camera saw?
18 A. It would be logical.
19 Q. Okay.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we play that?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise. May I just add
22 something? There is this possibility that I didn't have to be looking in
23 the same direction where the camera was filming.
24 MR. McCLOSKEY: I think we'll agree anything's possible.
25 Wouldn't you agree? And first we will go the real-time footage and
1 listen, tell us if you hear any automatic fire, gunfire, and then we will
2 go through the slowmo and then I'll stop it.
3 [Video-clip played]
4 MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay, just stop that right there.
5 Q. Did you hear automatic weapon fire as you were in front of the
7 A. Fire in front of the warehouse that originated from in front of
8 the warehouse?
9 Q. Much simpler than that. When you were driving by the front of
10 the warehouse, could you hear on the video now automatic weapon fire?
11 You've heard a lot more than I have. Was that automatic weapon fire we
13 A. I didn't hear anything because I did not hear anything while the
14 film was played. There was no sound. I only saw the images.
15 Q. Well, there was sound but let's hear it again. We hear someone
16 speaking over the tape but let's play it again and see what you hear this
18 [Video-clip played]
19 MR. McCLOSKEY:
20 Q. Did you hear automatic weapon fire?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. Let's play the slowmo.
23 [Video-clip played]
24 MR. McCLOSKEY:
25 Q. Are those people that we see here on this film?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And we are at 00:36:31.4, and we see some kind of soldier with
3 his back to the people; right?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. What did you do to help those people?
6 A. Obviously these people could no longer be helped.
7 Q. Are you sure? One thing we've learned here is that people shot
8 at close range don't die immediately. Some actually survive and crawl
9 out. Did you ever check to see if there was anybody still alive in that
11 A. I did not check.
12 Q. What did you do to help the remaining people that were alive in
13 that warehouse?
14 A. It is generally known what I have done. I did not do enough.
15 I did not do enough, and that is a generally known fact. But as I passed
16 by here, I saw something that was done and over with.
17 Q. What did you do to help the people that were still alive in that
18 warehouse, jammed into the warehouse? We talked about that earlier.
19 A. I thought then that they were not under my authority.
20 MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I don't have any other
22 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. McCloskey. Do you have any
23 re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes. I have something but I'm
25 wondering whether we should leave that for tomorrow morning or continue
1 now, given the fact that we are all tired.
2 JUDGE KWON: I take it you will have more than five minutes.
3 [Trial Chamber confers]
4 JUDGE KWON: We adjourn for today. Mr. Borovcanin, you must be
5 well aware of this but I'd like to advise you not to discuss with anybody
6 else about your testimony. Do you understand that?
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, but probably they've
8 already seen this on TV, so they will probably ask me a lot of things.
9 JUDGE KWON: Please refrain from discussing about your testimony
10 with whoever it may be.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, thank you.
12 JUDGE KWON: Hearing is adjourned.
13 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.41 p.m.,
14 to be reconvened on Friday, 7 June 2013,
15 at 9.00 a.m.