Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 39450

 1                           Friday, 7 June 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  Good morning,

 7     Mr. McCloskey.  Yes.

 8             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, everyone.  I was

 9     told by the experts there is a small numbering problem I need to fix.

10     Apparently some of the Bratunac SDS minutes were in evidence in another

11     exhibit, so all I need to put in is page 40 in the B/C/S and page 45 and

12     46 in the English, and that should be under 65 ter 00603H.

13             JUDGE KWON:  603H.  So the exhibit number of 6377 will not

14     change.  That's confirmed.  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

15             Yes, Mr. Robinson?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I also have one fix for an

17     exhibit and that is Exhibit P459 which is a report concerning the

18     shooting of the mother and her son in Sarajevo which was discussed with

19     Mr. Poparic, and there was some issue about the translation where

20     Dr. Karadzic had felt that some words were inserted.  In turns out that a

21     revised translation exists and the Prosecution has it, and we would ask

22     that they be permitted to substitute the revised translation for the one

23     that's currently in e-court.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  And according to the revised translation

25     the issue Mr. Karadzic raised has been resolved?

Page 39451

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, before we continue with the

 4     testimony of this witness I just want to make -- put something on the

 5     record because today was the day that Colonel Beara was subpoenaed to

 6     attend the proceedings and because of the delay in witnesses this week,

 7     we are not able to reach him today, but his lawyer, John Ostojic, is here

 8     and we have arranged to meet tomorrow morning for a proofing session, and

 9     depending upon the results of that we hope that we will be able to advise

10     the Trial Chamber on Monday when we would Colonel Beara to give his

11     testimony.  And so today we plan on completing the testimony of

12     Mr. Borovcanin and then hearing from Witness Goran Macar, and finally

13     around 1.15 or so to have the testimony of Dr. Seselj.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for the notice.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Your Excellencies.

17     Good morning to everyone.

18                           WITNESS:  LJUBOMIR BOROVCANIN [Resumed]

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Borovcanin.  I just have a few

22     additional questions about a footage that was shown by my learned friend,

23     Mr. McCloskey.  We could hear some shots.  Can you tell us something

24     about the nature of those shots, that is the bursts of fire we could

25     hear?  Can it be determined where, who and what?

Page 39452

 1        A.   As far as I recall, on my way back from Konjevic Polje to

 2     Kravica, there was constant shooting from the forest, from the nearby

 3     hills, on the road, and back probably, so the exchange of fire was

 4     mutual.  However, when I passed by the Kravica warehouse, I did not see

 5     anyone firing, nor did I hear any firing.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  It was suggested that you would not have been

 7     promoted had Karadzic not wanted you to be.  Can you tell us whether you

 8     know of a single case in which I promoted any professionals, I do not

 9     mean ministers but any professionals in the MUP?  Did I try to impose

10     someone's promotion or deny such promotion?

11        A.   I can only discuss my case.  To my knowledge, the MUP personnel

12     policy was in the hands of the minister of the interior.  It was within

13     his exclusive competence.  When I was transferred inside the

14     Ministry of the Interior or when I was promoted, no one, save the

15     minister, discussed it with me.  It was never suggested to me that he

16     should stop our conversations to consult someone else first.  Therefore,

17     I can say that such occurrences are unknown to me.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On page 73 of yesterday's transcript, it was

19     suggested that you did not take all the measures available to you to

20     protect the POWs.  Could anything be foreseen in terms of expecting such

21     an incident to occur when someone would try to seize a rifle and open

22     fire?

23        A.   I couldn't have foreseen that.  Initial information of something

24     terrible happening is something I received by radio, by a radio

25     communication, and for me it was a shock.  I was greatly surprised.

Page 39453

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked or it was suggested that the president

 2     must have been -- or should have been informed of all events.  Can you

 3     tell us whether you saw a document or did you have any knowledge of me

 4     being informed of the Kravica event?  And more generally, can you tell us

 5     if services are operating properly, does the president need to be

 6     informed of each aspect of their work?

 7        A.   First of all, given my position at the time I know what my

 8     competence and duties were.  I had no duty to inform the president of

 9     anything.  If the competent service, and as per regulations I can explain

10     what institution would be competent and what the procedure was to be

11     followed, well, it was up to those institutions to undertake appropriate

12     measures.  As for at what level it refers to or where it ends, that's

13     something we can discuss, but I don't think you'll find anywhere that it

14     is stated that the president needs to be or must be informed about such

15     events.

16        Q.   Thank you.  According to your knowledge, tell us whether the

17     president had at his disposal some particular or special investigative

18     services at his disposal, save for the regular police institutions?

19        A.   If we are talking about this case, then the police, that is to

20     say the MUP, was not the competent service to investigate a case like

21     that.  Under the Law on Military Courts and the Law on the Military

22     Prosecutor's Office as well as regulations accompanying that law, it was

23     within the sole competence of military courts and military prosecutors,

24     as well as such bodies which under the regulation were duty-bound to take

25     part in such procedures.

Page 39454

 1        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Borovcanin, for your effort and testimony.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions.

 3                           Questioned by the Court:

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Borovcanin, at today's transcript, page 3, from

 5     line 17 and onwards, I will read out.  This is question from

 6     Mr. Karadzic:

 7             "On page 73 of yesterday's transcript, it was suggested that you

 8     did not take all the measures available to you to protect the POWs.

 9     Could anything be foreseen in terms of expecting such an incident to

10     occur when someone would try to seize a rifle and open fire?"

11             And this is your answer:

12             "I couldn't have foreseen that.  Initial information of something

13     terrible happening is something I received by radio, by a radio

14     communication, and for me it was a shock.  I was greatly surprised."

15             Is it your understanding that the Trial Chamber that tried you,

16     that convicted you, had in mind the initial killing of 20 or 30 persons

17     when it said that you didn't take all the measures to protect the POWs?

18        A.   I'm not sure I fully understand the question.

19             JUDGE KWON:  As Mr. McCloskey indicated to you, you were

20     convicted for aiding and abetting by omission.  Do you understand that?

21        A.   Yes.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let me put this -- put it in this way:  Standing

23     there now, what is the total number of prisoners that were killed at

24     Kravica house, as you understand it now?  It may be rough.

25        A.   What I saw when I passed by at the time is between 20 on 30

Page 39455

 1     people who were killed, and that is what I said.  During the trial, when

 2     some documents were shown and that were included in the judgement, it

 3     is -- it became obvious that after the initial event, there were

 4     consequences in terms of follow-up because it seems that in the second

 5     round, in the second wave, far more people were killed than I had

 6     initially seen there, although I am uncertain of any exact figures.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  When did you hear for the first time of the second

 8     wave?

 9        A.   The most precise information I received was presented during my

10     trial, after a number of different testimonies and documents.  In the

11     meantime, I received information as well that there were additional

12     killings.

13             JUDGE KWON:  When did you hear it for the first time,

14     Mr. Borovcanin?  I don't necessarily mean the exact or precise

15     information, be it rumour or be it some -- whatever.  When did you hear

16     about the additional killing for the first time?

17        A.   Upon my return from the field, before the 20th of July, shortly

18     afterwards, I went to another area in Herzegovina in the area of Trebinje

19     where I also stayed around 20 days.  I think after I returned from there,

20     I heard about some rumours, as you put it, or some information that there

21     were additional killings.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Borovcanin.

23             Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

24             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Could I ask one question regarding something the

25     President Karadzic had asked about.  It would be the area of what

Page 39456

 1     institutions he may have had that would have provided him information.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 3             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you.

 4                           Further cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

 5        Q.   Just looking at your after-action report is what I call it,

 6     you've stated there on the 12th that you received information from the

 7     state security employees about the movement of the Muslim column; is that

 8     correct?

 9        A.   Inter alia I received information from them, that is true.

10        Q.   And who -- do you remember their names, these state security

11     folks?

12        A.   I think I mentioned it in my interview, there were two state

13     security operatives there:  One of them was Vito Tomic and the other, the

14     last name was Glogovac, I believe.

15        Q.   Sinisa.  Sinisa Glogovac?

16        A.   Yes.

17        Q.   And where were they when you received information from them and

18     where were you?

19        A.   In Potocari.

20        Q.   And what date?

21        A.   12 July 1995.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Thank you, Mr. President, I have nothing further.

24             THE ACCUSED:  May I?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, what topic do you have in mind?

Page 39457

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] What was discussed after

 2     I concluded, that is to say the events in the Kravica warehouse.  One

 3     question.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell us what the question is about first

 5     in more specific terms?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to shed some light

 7     regarding whether any member of Mr. Borovcanin's unit took part in the

 8     second wave of killings, and whether they were members of your unit or

 9     did the unit act pursuant to orders or a plan in Kravica.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think we heard the evidence yesterday.  I will

11     consult my colleagues.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Please, go ahead.

14                           Further re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Borovcanin, some distinction was made

16     yesterday between your words and the words of my learned friend,

17     Mr. McCloskey.  You said "some members of my unit," whereas Mr. McCloskey

18     said "your unit."  Please tell us this:  Is there a difference between

19     some members and the unit and whether in the second round of killings

20     anyone from your unit participated?

21        A.   If I recollect it well, yesterday I had in mind two members of

22     the 2nd Detachment, the commander of the detachment, Cuturic, and the

23     other member's name was Dragicevic, I believe.  He was killed.  That is

24     what I had in mind when I said they took part in the incident.  As

25     regards the second round, if we can call it that, I do not have any

Page 39458

 1     specific knowledge or I did not have any specific knowledge then, in

 2     terms of whether someone had participated in it.  It was my information,

 3     actually, that no one did.

 4        Q.   Tell us if there is a difference between the unit pursuing some

 5     activity and having a couple of members on the spot?

 6        A.   Two men alone are not the unit.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I have no

 9     further questions.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. McCloskey?

11             MR. McCLOSKEY:  I apologise for continuing this, Mr. President,

12     but this issue is -- I have a list that I provided the Defence yesterday

13     on my cross-examination, I have a list of some ten convictions of his men

14     in the state court which I chose not to use for these -- I have it

15     uploaded into e-court and now this door has just been kicked wide open.

16     If the Court is interested in those convictions as a record, it was meant

17     purely, in my view, as impeachment of this witness and now to impeach the

18     last few questions that we've just heard.  If the Court is interested, I

19     have that list.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will allow you to put further questions

22     as a further cross-examination.

23             MR. McCLOSKEY:  If we could go to 65 ter 25192.

24                           Further cross-examination by Mr. McCloskey:

25        Q.   And, sir, this is a list of people, three of whom pled guilty in

Page 39459

 1     the state court, some eight others that had been convicted.  This is

 2     based on the official records that we also have uploaded into e-court if

 3     anyone feels it's necessary, and since you said you weren't aware, let me

 4     ask you, Vaso Todorovic, a member of the 2nd Detachment, you knew

 5     Vaso Todorovic?

 6        A.   I didn't.  I only heard of him.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, you've heard of him, and he has pled guilty at the

 8     state court for escorting people imprisoning them at the warehouse and

 9     standing guards while members of his unit shot them.  There is a second

10     plea by a person named Milivoje Turkovic, a member the Jahorina training

11     centre, and on the 14th of July they were killing an imprisoned man from

12     the Kravica warehouse.  And then there was Dragan Crnogorac from again

13     the training unit.  He pled guilty, crimes against humanity.  Men --

14     wounded men that were taken to a house at Sandici meadow -- for killing

15     them.  And then we have first instant judgements of other people and that

16     means judgement that had not yet gone to appeal.  Dusko Jevic, I'm sure

17     you'll agree with me, he was one of your commanders.  He commanded the

18     Jahorina training unit; correct?

19        A.   He was assistant commander.

20        Q.   And Mendeljev Djuric.  He was also one of your commanders?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   They were both convicted for participating in the forcible

23     transfer of Bosnian civilians and separation and imprisonment of them and

24     the mass killing of people at the Kravica warehouse.  They were convicted

25     of genocide.  And then second instant verdict, if we go down to 5, it's

Page 39460

 1     the next page in the English, I believe, Petar Mitrovic from the

 2     Skelani Platoon of the 2nd Detachment was convicted of genocide.  Firing

 3     at men with his automatic rifle at the Kravica warehouse.  Then we have

 4     Milenko Trifunovic, he was one of your people; right?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Nicknamed Cop?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   We see him on the video.  I won't take the time to play it but we

 9     see him barking at a Bosnian Muslim man who was ordered to call for his

10     son and to call for others to come out of the woods.  That's Cop; right?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think we are going beyond

12     what he has been allowed to do for his re-re-cross-examination.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We are now confirming the members of the specific

14     unit, so I think this is part of it.

15             Please continue, Mr. McCloskey.

16             MR. McCLOSKEY:

17        Q.   So that now famous individual, that's Cop, that's

18     Milenko Trifunovic; correct?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And we also see Brano Dzinic, member of your unit;

21     Aleksandar Radovanovic, member of your unit; Slobodan Jakovljevic, member

22     of your unit; Branislav Medan, member of your unit, all convicted for

23     genocide at the Kravica warehouse where they killed members -- Bosnians,

24     by firing automatic weapons at them.  That's Trifunovic and Radovanovic,

25     throwing hand grenades at them, Dzinic, and standing guard to prevent

Page 39461

 1     escape.  Jakovljevic and Medan.  We see their sentences.  Then finally,

 2     Radomir Vukovic, convicted genocide, for his participation in the Kravica

 3     warehouse.  Surely you've heard of all those people being convicted at

 4     the state court.

 5        A.   I heard of some cases and I haven't heard of other cases.  Some

 6     of the things that you mentioned are final judgements, others are first

 7     instance judgements, so I wouldn't want to comment on them.  As for this

 8     number that you referred to, that is to say those who were convicted,

 9     these are people who gave a large number of statements to different

10     investigation organs, from SIPA, the minister of the interior of

11     Republika Srpska, and a large number of them also gave statements to the

12     investigators of the Office of the Prosecutor of this Tribunal.  In most

13     of these cases -- statements from earlier on, during the entire

14     investigation, no one ever mentioned such things, and then -- well, maybe

15     it's most of them, they had a plea agreement with the

16     Office of the Prosecutor, about ten years after those events.  So all of

17     a sudden.  Why all of a sudden their conscience started working, well,

18     I really hadn't heard of some of these things up until now but certainly

19     these are facts.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Mr. President, if you're interested I can offer

22     this document and the supporting documents into evidence.  If not, I will

23     leave them be.

24             JUDGE KWON:  It's up to you whether or not.

25             MR. McCLOSKEY:  Then I would offer them, this particular document

Page 39462

 1     and we do have the supporting documents as well so that they can be

 2     carefully reviewed.  This is our best work, though I hope there are no

 3     mistakes in it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we don't have any objection to

 6     this document but we do object to the underlying judgements and the

 7     information there.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit this document.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6378, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just one question in relation to

12     what is said just now.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14                           Further re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Borovcanin, yesterday, the distinguished

16     Mr. McCloskey also uttered a sentence namely your unit killed, et cetera.

17     Please tell us, did your unit have an order, a command, in respect of

18     these things that happened in the Kravica, in the forest, anywhere?  Did

19     your unit act as a unit involving command and control?

20        A.   I personally never issued that kind of order to anyone and I did

21     not have any knowledge of any such thing happening at all, that it had

22     happened or that it was happening at the time.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Unless my colleagues have a question for

25     you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Borovcanin.  Thank you for your

Page 39463

 1     coming to the Tribunal to give it again.  You are now free to go.  I also

 2     thank Ms. Cmeric for coming to the Tribunal.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5             MR. McCLOSKEY:  And thank you, Mr. President, and may I please be

 6     excused?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. McCloskey.

 8             I take it that the Defence is not tendering any associated

 9     exhibits?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

11             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is of the view that paragraph 13 is not

12     relevant.

13                           [The witness entered court]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

16     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

17                           WITNESS:  GORAN MACAR

18                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Macar.  Please be seated and make

20     yourself comfortable.  Yes, before you commence your evidence, Mr. Macar,

21     I must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have

22     here at the International Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E) of Rules of

23     Procedure and Evidence.  Under this rule, you may object to answering any

24     question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution or even from the Judges if

25     you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.

Page 39464

 1     In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount

 2     to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

 3     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

 4     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you and as a

 5     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

 6     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question, but in

 7     that situation, the Tribunal will -- would ensure that your testimony

 8     compelled in such circumstances would not be used in any case that might

 9     be laid against you, for any offence save and except the offence of

10     giving false testimony.

11             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Macar?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

15                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Macar.

17        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

18        Q.   Please make yourself comfortable and also let us speak slowly,

19     both you and I, and let us pause between what we both have to say.  Did

20     you give a statement to the Defence team?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have 1D9110 in e-court?

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Do you see this statement before you now?

Page 39465

 1        A.   Yes.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read the statement and signed it?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the last page please be

 5     displayed for the witness so that he could identify his signature.

 6        A.   That is my signature.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  Did this statement faithfully reflect what you said

 8     to the Defence team?

 9        A.   Completely.

10        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

11     would your answers essentially be the same, like in this statement?

12        A.   Yes, perhaps they would just be more extensive.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

15     statement according to 92 ter.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Sutherland, except for the

17     paragraph I referred to, i.e. paragraph 13?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.  Good morning.  And no,

19     Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit the Rule 92 ter statement with

21     the redaction of paragraph 13.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3663, Your Honours.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I'm going to read

25     out the summary of Mr. Goran Macar's statement in English.

Page 39466

 1              [In English] Goran Macar was chief of the crime prevention

 2     department at the Sarajevo town Secretariat for the Interior, SUP, from

 3     spring 1990 to 3rd of April, 1992.  When the Ministry of the Interior of

 4     the Serbian Republic of Bosnia was formed, he was appointed co-ordinator

 5     of operative work at the crime prevention and detection [Realtime

 6     transcript read in error "detention"] administration in the -- in late

 7     April.  In October 1992, Mr. Macar organised the crime prevention and

 8     detection [Realtime transcript read in error "detention"] administration

 9     at the Republika Srpska MUP headquarters in Bijeljina.  He was officially

10     appointed chief of the administration on 13th of May, 1994.

11             On 23rd of July, 1997, he was appointed chief of the SJB.  From

12     March 1998 to February 1999 he was a MUP employee without assignment.

13             Goran Macar assisted the transformation of the police --

14     political situation and MUP structure and the victory of the national

15     parties in the first multi-party -- after the victory of the national

16     parties at the first multi-party elections.  Parties became very

17     influential in selecting the BH MUP staff and the SDA led the way in

18     this.  Within a new regime, ethnic origin became a determinant factor in

19     personnel selections and overshadowed the importance of the quality

20     criterion.  The SDA raised a number of reserve police men against the

21     rules, primarily appointing Muslims.  Muslims were also appointed as

22     commanders at the reserve police station where the Serb

23     representatives -- they represented the majority and weapons were taken

24     away and were distributed to the station -- to stations where Muslims

25     were a majority.

Page 39467

 1             In general, Serbs were always given marginal tasks.  In May 1991,

 2     the MUP and the state security had information that the SDA was working

 3     on creating paramilitary formations.  The Green Berets were engaging

 4     well-known criminals in their ranks who mostly became commanders of their

 5     units.  Toward the end of 1991 criminals were allowed to walk around

 6     Sarajevo freely and even go to the Stari Grad SUP SJB.  Serbian

 7     policemens were threatened by the criminals and their Muslim colleagues

 8     and forced to leave the Stari Grad public security station.  All attempts

 9     of Serbian policemen to do their work were thwarted by Muslim colleagues.

10     The situation was similar in other parts of the BH.  By the end of 1991,

11     Croatian Defence forces HOS established check-points in different areas

12     of BH.  In early 1992, Croatian forces captured a group of policemen sent

13     to assist the Bosanski Brod SJB in the fighting against arms smuggling.

14     The smuggling of weapons from Croatia to BH had a scope of arming Muslims

15     and Croats.  All these incidents led to the disorganisation and the split

16     of the MUP by ethnic groups.  The goal of the Muslims was to take

17     complete control of the MUP while the Serbs were trying to soften the SDS

18     -- SDA domination and the Croats directed their influence toward the

19     municipal structures in which they represented the majority.

20             This sort of division also existed in the Serbian police.  The

21     police structure dissolved and its work became paralysed in January 1992.

22     Check-points made up of members of the MUP active and reserve complements

23     of the Green Berets were set up around Sarajevo.  On 15th of March, 1992,

24     the command of the school -- of the 2nd Army district was blocked.

25     Thousands of civilians were there and active and reserve policemen bore

Page 39468

 1     rifles but did nothing to protect the command from the civilians.  The

 2     Green Berets were also present.  Negotiations were underway to divide the

 3     MUP into three parts.  This division was meant to be based on the

 4     Cutileiro Plan.  By the end of March the Croats had already set up a

 5     staff in Mostar that was responsible for the areas where the Croats were

 6     in the majority.  At that time, I -- it was still not agreed how the

 7     Serbian MUP and the SB -- CSB would operate with regard to security.

 8             On 3rd of April, 1992, Goran Macar was forced to leave his job

 9     and flee Sarajevo because his name was in the list of the Serbian leading

10     officials who the Muslim leadership wanted arrested.  Three days later,

11     Serbian policemen Pero Petrovic was killed at the Novo Sarajevo station.

12     In those days, thousands of refugees flooded into Zvornik -- into Sokolac

13     mostly from Gorazde and Sarajevo.  On 19th of April, 1992, Goran Macar

14     rejoined the RS MUP.  The Serbian MUP was set up in Pale.  Pale is a

15     small town which means that it was not entirely suitable for MUP

16     headquarters.  It was overrun by the huge number of refugees and had

17     problems with water, electricity and other basic provisions including

18     communications.  Information received was very incomplete.  It was

19     impossible to communicate with the SJBs but in the ARK until MUP

20     headquarters moved to Bijeljina the administration only received 31

21     dispatches.  Part of the administration located in Vraca was under

22     constant artillery and sniper fire.  There was also shortage of

23     personnel, material and technical equipment.

24             In the new organisation, the influence of local strongmen and the

25     Crisis Staff on the SJB was enormous.  They were the ones and not the

Page 39469

 1     ministry who appointed and paid the SJB chiefs and other policemen.

 2     Because of this, the SJBs did not report properly and fully to the

 3     ministry and it was not possible to establish proper subordination from

 4     the top downwards in the area of law and order.  In addition, a number of

 5     SJBs had special units, later disbanded, which were neither directed nor

 6     approved by the ministry.

 7             In the second half of 1992, these units were disbanded and most

 8     of their members came under VRS command.  Despite the scarcity of the

 9     staff and equipment, the RS MUP performed properly and fully respected RS

10     laws.  In this respect, all the ministers at the head of MUP were

11     inexorable.  Therefore members of the RS MUP did not behave differently

12     depending on the ethnic origin of the perpetrators and the victims.  They

13     behaved in accordance with law.  The non-existence of judicial organs,

14     especially the prosecutor's office also affected the efficiency of the

15     police.  The police did not differentiate between ethnic origin of

16     perpetrators or victims.  Nevertheless, the RS MUP and the VRS had a

17     widespread problem with the behaviour of volunteers, the Yellow Wasps

18     were beyond all control.  The VRS and MUP jointly disarmed it.  The

19     position of the MUP and the VRS was that only those armed formations

20     envisaged by law could exist in the territory while those groups such as

21     Yellow Wasps which were beyond the control were identified and

22     prosecuted.  Radovan Karadzic offered full support in solving all crimes

23     and always emphasised the necessity to act in full compliance with the

24     law.

25             And that is a summary, and that moment I do not have questions

Page 39470

 1     for Mr. Macar.  Although it is not an evidence but on page 16, line 17 to

 2     19, I said that "detection" but it is recorded "detention," "detention."

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Macar, as you have noticed, your

 4     evidence-in-chief in this case has been admitted in its entirety in

 5     writing, that is through your written witness statement.  Now you will be

 6     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor but

 7     before we do that, shall we go into private session very briefly.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15                           [Open session]

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We are now in open session.

18             Ms. Sutherland?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm not able to stand for long

20     periods of time, so I seek leave to continue sitting for

21     cross-examination.

22             JUDGE KWON:  No problem at all.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

24                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

25        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Macar.  You were -- you stated that it was the

Page 39471

 1     Crisis Staffs and not the RS MUP who appointed SJB chiefs and other

 2     policemen, and in that regard I would like to show you some documents and

 3     then I will ask you some questions.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 25155, please.

 5        Q.   Within this exhibit there are five documents.  The first document

 6     that we can see on the screen is a decision by Mico Stanisic, who is the

 7     Minister of the RS MUP, on the 25th of April, and there he is stating

 8     that the CSB heads must get permission from him before assigning

 9     employees on to next jobs and assignments.  Do you see that there, in

10     paragraph number 2?

11        A.   Yes.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could move to the next document, the next

13     page?

14        Q.   This next document is dated the 4th of May and it's from the CSB

15     chief, CSB Banja Luka chief, Stojan Zupljanin.  And he is seeking the

16     approval of Minister Stanic to employ and assign staff and we can see

17     they are concerning the appointments of Mirko Vrucinic as chief of the

18     Sanski Most SJB and Dragomir Kutlija of Bosanski Novi SJB.  Do you see

19     that there?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   If we could go to the next document, please.  I want to show you

22     now three documents relating to the appointment of SJB heads.  The first

23     one is a CSB Banja Luka decision of the 30th of July, 1992, stating that

24     with prior approval from the minister of the interior, it issues this

25     decision to employ Simo Drljaca to the Banja Luka CSB and to be

Page 39472

 1     temporarily assigned until the adoption of the rules on the internal

 2     organisation of the MUP as chief of Prijedor SJB, as of

 3     29th of April, 1992.

 4             If we could go to the next document, please.  This is again a

 5     Banja Luka CSB decision of the 13th of June, 1992, again with prior

 6     approval from the minister of the interior to employ Mirko Vrucinic in

 7     the Banja Luka CSB and be term temporarily assigned as chief of the

 8     Sanski Most CSB and this is the gentleman that we saw a moment ago in the

 9     document where Zupljanin was seeking the approval of Mico Stanisic to

10     assign him.  And if we can go to the last document, this is a document of

11     the 1st of April, 1992, by Mico Stanisic temporarily assigning

12     Malko Koroman to the post of inspector of the Sarajevo CSB.  Firstly,

13     this is the same Malko Koroman who became chief of the Pale SJB, wasn't

14     it?

15        A.   Yes, he became chief at Pale, but which period are you referring

16     to?

17        Q.   1992.

18        A.   Malko Koroman became chief before the 1st of April, 1992, as far

19     as I know.

20        Q.   These documents that I have just shown you, Mr. Macar, show that,

21     in fact, it was the RS MUP who were appointing - at least for the three

22     examples that I've shown you -- appointing SJB chiefs in Prijedor,

23     Sanski Most and Pale.  That's right, isn't it?

24        A.   If you could put Mr. Zupljanin's document back up, in which he

25     seeks approval, then we could proceed in chronological order.

Page 39473

 1        Q.   No.  I don't intend doing that, Mr. Macar.  The documents I've

 2     shown you show that these men were appointed with the approval of the

 3     Minister of the RS MUP to positions of chief of SJBs?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, I don't believe that Ms. Sutherland

 5     should be the one testifying.  If she has a question she should put it

 6     and if the witness needs to refer to see a document he should be allowed

 7     to do that.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was about to put another question

10     before Mr. Robinson rose, and that is these documents show, do they not,

11     Mr. Macar, that these three people that I've just shown you were

12     appointed with the prior approval of the minister to the head of the

13     SJBs?

14        A.   Madam Prosecutor, that is why I wanted to see the first document

15     again.  These documents do not show that the minister gave approval for

16     the appointment of these people.  I have not seen a document showing that

17     Mr. Stanisic is giving approval to the chief of the Banja Luka CSB to

18     appoint these persons.  I am now talking about cases from Banja Luka.  In

19     your documentation, and you have access to the entire documentation of

20     the MUP of the RS, should also have the approval of the minister of the

21     MUP to appoint the aforementioned persons to those positions.

22        Q.   Mr. Macar, sorry, I said the three positions of CSBs.  In fact

23     the document on the screen signed by Mr. Stanisic is appointing

24     Malko Koroman to SJB inspector in the CSB?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you take a look at Mr. Zupljanin's memo or

Page 39474

 1     letter, as Mr. Macar requested?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That is the second document, dated -- dated the

 3     4th of May.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  E-court page 2 in B/C/S?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, and in English.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So first sentence starts with, we seek your approval

 7     to employ and assign the following staff.  Yes, do you have any comment,

 8     Mr. Macar?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  This is a document seeking

10     approval from the minister, and the sequence of actions is:  Before the

11     minister to give approval, for the document to go to the CSB and based on

12     that the chief of the CSB is entitled to appoint someone to a certain

13     position as requested.  And I cannot see in this document or in the other

14     documents that they got approval from Minister Stanisic.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, back to you, Ms. Sutherland.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

17        Q.   Except that in the three documents I showed you subsequent

18     after -- after this document, each of those documents said with the prior

19     approval of the minister.  It actually says that in the three decisions,

20     in the three appointment decisions.

21        A.   If I could see them again, because I noticed that these documents

22     were not signed, either by Zupljanin or on his behalf and one more thing

23     that's interesting is that the documents are dated at 30th of July, and

24     they are referring to -- if I may read it out.

25        Q.   Mr. Macar, if I can interrupt you, it is signed, this document in

Page 39475

 1     front of us, in relation to Drljaca and it is simply post-dating

 2     something that has been -- that has taken place earlier.  It says as of

 3     the 29th of April, 1992.

 4        A.   In order to discuss this decision, we must have the written

 5     approval in line with the procedures of the ministry, showing that the

 6     chief of the centre got approval to appoint someone.  In other words,

 7     there had to be a written approval to the chief of the centre to appoint

 8     someone.  So I cannot say that everything was done in accordance with the

 9     procedure.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this 65 ter

11     number.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit them.

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6379, Your Honours.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Macar, you also said that the municipalities were paying the

17     police.  I want to show you a number of documents now in that regard.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 25168, please?

19        Q.   Within this exhibit, there are eight documents relating to

20     salaries for Prijedor SJB.  Now, you can see here on the first document,

21     this is at B/C/S page 1 of the -- the exhibit, this is from Simo Drljaca

22     a document dated the 21st of May to CSB Banja Luka sending a list of the

23     employees to be paid for the month of April.  Do you see that?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   And then the -- the attachment with all the names.  If we can go

Page 39476

 1     to the next document in this exhibit which is in the B/C/S page 7, again

 2     from Drljaca to CSB Banja Luka, again in relation to the salaries for the

 3     month of April.  If we can go to the next document, which is B/C/S

 4     page 14, this is a document dated the 3rd of July, 1992, again from

 5     Drljaca to CSB Banja Luka about salaries for July, and it mentions names

 6     of employees, and then it also mentions just before the type sign of the

 7     typed signature of the sender, in paragraph number 5, pay salary for June

 8     to Miroslav Paras, the commander of the Intervention Platoon, instead of

 9     sick leave which was the result of being wounded in action, the subject.

10     And it goes on what he's going to do about his settlement of salary.  If

11     we can have the next document which is B/C/S page 15, this is dated the

12     4th of August -- I'm sorry, we don't have the correct English translation

13     in e-court.  But it's setting out the money to be paid for the salaries

14     for July.  If we can go to the next document, that's B/C/S page 16, it's

15     dated the 7th of August and again it's actually from the SJB -- CSB Banja

16     Luka, I'm sorry, about approval for payment of salaries for the Prijedor

17     SJB, and it's -- and it's raising a cash order from the 1992 budget.

18             And then we also see a stamp where it says it's been approved,

19     260.000 dinars.  And finally, not finally, the next document is B/C/S

20     page 17, on the 6th of August, this is a summary for the month of July of

21     payments for the SJB Prijedor, and it notes that on the 6th of August,

22     due to an error when adding up the lists, there was a mistake and

23     therefore the CSB Banja Luka through the finance department is now

24     withdrawing the balance of 260.000 dinars.  The next document is on

25     page 18 of the B/C/S, again this is from Zupljanin dated the

Page 39477

 1     7th of August, 1992, and it's a statement about the expenditures and

 2     salaries for Prijedor SJB for the month of July.  And the following page

 3     is a document from Simo Drljaca dated the 26th of August, 1992, to CSB

 4     Banja Luka sending salaries, the calculation of salaries, for the month

 5     of August.  And then attached to that is a list of all the employees that

 6     are to be paid.

 7             So in relation to all of these documents that I have just shown

 8     you, Mr. Macar, it is clear that the salaries are being paid up through

 9     the MUP, not from the municipality, in relation to Prijedor SJB.  Isn't

10     that right?

11        A.   The financing of public security stations and public security

12     centres are not limited to the payment of salaries.  In the cases you

13     have listed, the funds for the disbursement of salaries came from the

14     autonomous region of Krajina.  In the MUP, the salaries were symbolic

15     category.  You will -- will probably have the exchange rate for the time,

16     so if you convert these dinars into German marks, you will see that those

17     were amounts allowing you to survive for a couple of days.

18        Q.   Mr. Macar, sorry, you specifically said in paragraph 20 that the

19     MUP was not paying the police.  This clearly shows Drljaca sending

20     correspondence up the chain of command to CSB Banja Luka in relation to

21     salaries.  He's not sending it to the municipal authorities in Prijedor,

22     which is what you say in your statement, that it was the municipalities

23     that were paying the SJB chief -- sorry, that were paying the police, and

24     I'm showing you documents where Drljaca is sending these things up to

25     Zupljanin in relation to salaries.

Page 39478

 1        A.   Perhaps you don't understand me.  The funding of the police is

 2     not limited to salaries.  The financing of the police includes

 3     procurement of uniforms, procurement of fuel, procurement of weapons,

 4     ammunition, food, when police units are in combat, then the procurement

 5     of food for the police officers' families because the salaries were not

 6     sufficient.

 7        Q.   Mr. Macar, I'm sorry, you said in your statement that they were

 8     being paid.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this bundle of

10     documents, please.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6380, Your Honours.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   Mr. Macar, I would now like to show you a document, 65 ter 25170.

16     This is in relation to the Pale municipality.  Now, you see here public

17     auditing service, the branch is in Sokolac and this is confirmation of a

18     debit.  We have debited your account Republika Srpska MUP, purpose of the

19     transfer is for the advance pay for September, and it's to be credited to

20     the account of Pale SJB, public security station.  And that's in the

21     amount of 3.325.000 dinars.  If we could go to the next page, please --

22     sorry, that was dated the 22nd of October, 1992.  The next page is again

23     from the Sokolac SDK, public accounting service, to Republika Srpska MUP,

24     purpose of the transfer advance payment, 6.118 -- 618.000, I'm sorry,

25     remuneration and for reserve complement, 430 -- 440.000, and it's to be

Page 39479

 1     credited to the account of Han Pijesak SJB.  And then the document which

 2     follows, that is the payroll for the SJB for the month of September.  So

 3     again we have the money flowing from the government account, SDK branch

 4     at Sokolac, through to the RS MUP, down to the SJB in Pale and then there

 5     is also another document there relating to the Han Pijesak SJB so again

 6     going through the MUP.  That's what that shows, doesn't it?

 7        A.   The MUP headquarters, the MedFin service, provided money for the

 8     salaries but not for other expenses, and there was no SDK for the Krajina

 9     at the time.

10        Q.   Mr. Macar, I put to you that this shows the money going through

11     the channels down to the SJB, paying for salaries.  That's correct?

12        A.   Yes, when you talk about Pale.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'd seek to tender this document.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6381, Your Honours.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Next document is 65 ter number 25171.

17        Q.   This relates to the Vlasenica SJB, Mr. Macar.  We can see the SDK

18     debiting the RS MUP account, the purpose of the transfer is the first

19     part of salary, 442.500 and remuneration, 865.000, and it's to be

20     credited to the account of Vlasenica SJB.  Now if we look at the

21     following page --

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excuse me, can we hear a date?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I was just about to say that that document is

24     undated but if we have a look at the following page we can see a list of

25     SJB Vlasenica employees for the -- who were working in the month of

Page 39480

 1     August 1992, and if you look at the top right-hand corner, you can see a

 2     notation, 29 employees, 442.500, which is the amount that was shown on

 3     the previous -- the document on the previous page, and if we can go to

 4     B/C/S -- sorry, the following page, B/C/S page 3, on the top of that

 5     document listing a number of people, it says 56 employees, 865.000, which

 6     was the other amount which was on that first document from the SDK

 7     Sokolac.  Now, again this shows money going from out of the RS MUP

 8     account down to Vlasenica SJB, does it not?

 9        A.   Yes.  Only I would like to see if there were continuous

10     disbursements from April up to the period you're mentioning, or does this

11     apply only to this month?

12        Q.   The document I'm showing you relates to the month of August.  If

13     we go to B/C/S page 6 of this document, we can see again an SDK document

14     confirming a debit from RS MUP, purpose of the transfer, first part of

15     salary and remuneration for reserve complement to be credited to the

16     account of Vlasenica SJB.  The following page, another --

17        A.   That's October, right?

18        Q.   Yes.  Another -- the following page is again SDK debiting the RS

19     MUP account, transfer of funds for October 1992, salaries and

20     remunerations for reserve complement.  Another 5 million dinars.  If we

21     go to the next page, again, from RS MUP to Vlasenica SJB for the salaries

22     for November, 8 million dinars.  And the next page from RS MUP to

23     Vlasenica SJB, salaries for December.  So we can see that the MUP are

24     transferring funds to the SJB for salaries, contrary to what is your

25     position that the salaries were getting paid not by the RS MUP.  That's

Page 39481

 1     correct, isn't it?

 2        A.   That is not correct.  I did not say what you're trying to put in

 3     my mouth.  I stated clearly in my statement, but would like see a

 4     document showing that disbursement of salaries.  And also, whether the

 5     MUP from April until the end 1992 paid out salaries to all SJBs.  My

 6     comment in my statement was with reference to all payments, which is a

 7     much broader category than merely salaries.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Could you indicate the part where he referred to the

 9     financing or salary in his statement, Ms. Sutherland?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, and that's now Exhibit D3 --

11     663.  It's paragraph 20.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Paragraph 20.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   The first two sentences:

15             "The influence of local strong men and the Crisis Staff on the

16     SJB was enormous.  They were the ones and not the ministry who appointed

17     and paid the SJB chiefs and other policemen."

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we receive it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6382, Your Honours.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Given the time, Your Honour, I want to move on.

22     I have the police documents very similar to what I've just taken

23     Mr. Macar through for Zvornik and Bosanski Novi, and I am not going to

24     deal with those at the moment because of the time limit?

25             JUDGE KWON:  For planning purpose, in particular, the issue in --

Page 39482

 1     regarding the issue I raised in private, I'd like to know how much time

 2     do you need to conclude.  Will it take more than an hour?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We will have a break for 20 minutes and

 5     resume at 10 to 11.  We will have another 20 minutes after we resume, in

 6     an hour's time.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour, are you saying I only have

 8     another 20 minutes remaining?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.  When we resume we will be sitting for an

10     hour and after which you'll have another 20 minutes' break.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

12                           --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.

13                           --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Macar, one more record about payments to SJB police officers.

17     If I could have 65 ter 25167, please?  This relates to the Vogosca

18     municipality, it's dated the 28th of November, 1992, and it's to the

19     Security Service Centre in Sarajevo, and it's actually requesting money

20     to be paid back to the Vogosca SDK because there was not enough cash

21     money for salaries or payments and therefore they had to work together

22     with the Vogosca Municipal Assembly to find the cash to pay the police.

23     However, they are asking for reimbursement of the money back.  Do you see

24     that there?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 39483

 1        Q.   And so this is not something where the Municipal Assembly are

 2     paying, but they are in fact asking to be reimbursed which means it's the

 3     police that are paying the salaries for the month of October; is that

 4     right?

 5        A.   What can be seen from the document is that in late November, a

 6     request was sent for the payment of salaries for October.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to tender that document.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6383, Your Honours.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   Mr. Macar, in your statement you said that you paid particular

13     attention to the investigation of war crimes and that there was no bias

14     with regard to the ethnic background of the perpetrator or the victim.

15     This Trial Chamber has evidence before it in relation to the minister,

16     Mico Stanisic, actually ordering his CSB chiefs and therefore the SJBs

17     that report to the CSBs to report to them and collect information in

18     relation to war crimes against Serbs.  And for the Trial Chamber, and

19     Mr. Karadzic, that's Exhibits P02715 and P06240.  They also have evidence

20     before them that the SJBs did respond to this specific request to provide

21     documentation and information about crimes committed against the Serbian

22     civilian population.  And two examples of that can be found in

23     Exhibit P02759 and D01616.  In fact, Mr. Macar, it was inspectors from

24     your administration that actually visited the CSBs and SJBs and

25     instructed the CSB and the SJBs as to -- or put an emphasis on what

Page 39484

 1     documentation they should -- they should provide.  And I want to show you

 2     now a document from Doboj.  Now, this is some -- somewhere that you

 3     visited in October 1992; that's correct, isn't it?  You visited Doboj in

 4     October 1992?

 5        A.   I wasn't there in October 1992.

 6        Q.   Okay.  We will look at the report, P0 -- sorry, P03302.  You were

 7     shown this document when you testified here previously, and it's signed

 8     by Nikola Milanovic, Ostoja Minic and Radenko Vujicic, who are inspectors

 9     in your administration, are they not?

10        A.   Nikola Milanovic and Ostoja Minic were employees of the crime

11     prevention administration.  Radenko Vujicic was a police officer.  He was

12     employed in the police.

13        Q.   Yes.  He was he was assigned to the police assignments and duties

14     administration department.  But I think that you testified previously

15     that you had accompanied these -- these -- these men to Doboj and then

16     left them there to do their inspection; is that right?  Or to -- to --

17        A.   No.  I did not.

18        Q.   Can we look at page 6 in the English and page 4 at the bottom of

19     the B/C/S?  This is what I'm interested in, where it says all public

20     security stations were told to emphasise the documentation of war crimes

21     against the Serbian population, which has been the case so far, to

22     establish a record of war crimes and take timely measures to detect and

23     document the most serious crimes, perpetrators and the like.  If we can

24     have a look at 65 ter number 05664, just while that document is coming

25     up, Mr. Macar, it's -- it says here and this is signed by two ministers

Page 39485

 1     in your -- two inspectors in your department that they told the SJB --

 2     SJBs that come under Doboj's CSB, which are quite a number, they

 3     emphasised that the documentations of war crimes against the Serb people

 4     had to be collected.  Do you see that there?

 5        A.   No, I don't see it.  I have a different document before me.

 6        Q.   It's gone, I'm sorry.  It was the P3302, it's the bottom of

 7     page 4 in the B/C/S.  Do you see it now?

 8        A.   Yes, I do.

 9        Q.   So this is -- is showing that the SJBs are to put emphasis on

10     collecting crimes against Serb victims, yes?

11        A.   I don't think it is true that they were to put a particular

12     emphasis on it.  I simply think that information was being gathered on

13     crimes committed against the Serbs and that information was being sought

14     in order to collate it.  Due to a number of propaganda activities

15     undertaken by the international media and the enemy side at the time, the

16     situation was portrayed in a way as if there had been no crimes against

17     the Serbs so we needed unified information on the plight of Serbs for

18     government use.  They were not particularly tasked with distinguishing

19     between victims based on ethnicity, they were simply asked to forward

20     information.

21        Q.   I think the Trial Chamber will be able to read the document and

22     draw a conclusion.  If we could have 65 ter number 05664, this is the

23     very short document dated the 15th of December and it's from Zoran Josic,

24     department chief, and it's in relation to a dispatch, and it's saying:

25             "Acting in accordance with your dispatch we have carried out the

Page 39486

 1     necessary checks and established that no crimes against the Serbian

 2     civilian population such as the crime of genocide and war crimes like the

 3     destruction of Orthodox cemeteries, churches and other cultural and

 4     historical monuments have been registered with the Banja Luka SJB."

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down when reading.  Thank you.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 7        Q.   So again, a dispatch is being given by CSB Banja Luka, it

 8     appears, and they are reporting -- the SJB is reporting back about the

 9     crimes against the Serbian civilian population, and in this case there

10     are none.  This is a -- another example of the MUP's focus on crimes

11     where Serbs are the victims, is it not?

12        A.   It is not.  This was simply another example of the continuous

13     activity I just mentioned which was preparing information for the

14     government, because some information was arriving late -- well, I'd like

15     to see a dispatch, the dispatch, that they are referring to here.

16        Q.   I don't have that dispatch at my fingertips, Mr. Macar.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to tender that document, Your Honour.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection with respect to this document.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will admit it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6384, Your Honour.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number -- sorry,

22     Exhibit P02761.

23        Q.   Mr. Macar, in fact it was the RS MUP who said that in its draft

24     annual -- draft report for the work in the period of April to

25     December 1992 that the focus was on the crimes committed by -- against

Page 39487

 1     the Serbian people.  If we could go to page 15 of the English it's the

 2     second-to-last paragraph, and B/C/S it's page 21, also the second-to-last

 3     paragraph.  And it says:

 4             "In this period the criminal inspectors visited all the CSBs and

 5     SJBs and had meetings where they gave instructions for carrying out

 6     concrete operative activities.  The focus of the operative work in CSBs

 7     and SJB was on detection, documenting and reporting members of the enemy

 8     army who had committed acts of genocide against the Serbian people,

 9     torched or destroy immovable property, cultural and religious monuments

10     and other assets."

11             Now, in early in 1993 you were directed to provide data in

12     relation to Serb female victims only, weren't you?

13        A.   I don't recall it.  If you were to show me a document, perhaps

14     I could comment.

15        Q.   There are two documents that are related, 65 ter 25175 and 25174.

16     If we could have the first one, 25175, it's dated the 1st of January, and

17     it's an order from Mico Stanisic and it's to your attention and orders

18     your service to make a list of the Serbian people -- it's actually from

19     Todor Sikovic [phoen] but it's saying that the minister of the MUP,

20     Mico Stanisic, has ordered that the service make a list of Serbian women

21     who were raped by Muslim extremists based on the existing operational

22     documentation.  If we could have the second document, 65 ter 25174, this

23     is dated two days later, again from the same person in the MUP

24     detachment, to yourself and Dragan Kijac.  And it says:

25             "The vice-president of Republika Srpska, Biljana Plavsic, would

Page 39488

 1     like to know the extent to which the service has managed to implement the

 2     work of selecting the list of Serbian women raped by Muslim extremists."

 3             So did you provide this data?

 4        A.   As far as I recall, Ms. Plavsic planned and organised a press

 5     conference in the international press centre in Belgrade.

 6        Q.   Your answer is non-responsive.  I asked you whether you provided

 7     the data that -- that is a yes or a no answer.  You either provided it or

 8     you didn't.  Can you answer that question, please?

 9        A.   As far as I recall, a list was not forwarded.

10        Q.   Thank you.

11        A.   But raped Serb women did attend an international press conference

12     organised by Ms. Plavsic in Belgrade.

13        Q.   Mr. Macar, the focus of documenting crimes against the Serbian

14     people continued right throughout the conflict, didn't it?

15        A.   Well, if we read the report you presented first, perhaps in one

16     of the paragraphs we might be able to find something that is not fully in

17     context with the paragraph you referenced.  I think we reacted to the

18     report where we were dissatisfied with the pace at which war crimes were

19     being resolved, irrespective of the victims' ethnicity.

20        Q.   If I could have 65 ter number 25185, please, this is a document

21     from yourself to the Zvornik CJB dated the 17th of November, 1995.  In

22     view of the current events pertaining to the intense activity before the

23     International Tribunal in The Hague and the attempts to tarnish the

24     reputation of the Republika Srpska leadership, it is necessary for you to

25     intensify activities in connection with preparing and filing criminal

Page 39489

 1     reports against perpetrators of war crimes against the Serbian people.

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly slow down when reading.  Thank you.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  My apologies to the interpreters.

 4        Q.   So as I said a moment ago, this focus continued right throughout

 5     the conflict.  We see here in November 1995, still the emphasis is on

 6     crimes against the Serbian people.  That's right, isn't it?

 7        A.   No, it is not.  This dispatch had to do with gathering

 8     information on the plight of Serbs in the Drina region where the

 9     Srebrenica formations killed over 2.000 Serbs.  The propaganda that was

10     being put in place against the Serb people went so far as to have an

11     international report of a scene where a mother is kissing the skull of

12     her son, and perhaps if you allow me I'll tell you why it was done unless

13     you don't want me to.

14        Q.   I actually do not want you to tell me about that.  You just

15     mentioned that a number of Serbs were killed around this time period.

16     This is four months after thousands of men and boys from Srebrenica were

17     summarily executed.  As head of the crime administration weren't you just

18     a little bit interested in documenting crimes that had been committed

19     against the non-Serb population in this very area you just talked about?

20        A.   The minister of the interior dealt with documenting crimes it had

21     information of having taken place, and it dealt with what was within the

22     competence of the Ministry of the Interior.  It did not involve itself in

23     such affairs as to -- as such as the ones that belonged to the military

24     domain.

25        Q.   You're sending this document to the -- the Zvornik CJB.  Now, in

Page 39490

 1     this document, you could have put, Prepare and file criminal reports

 2     against perpetrators of war crimes against all ethnicities, but you

 3     didn't, you chose to do it against crimes against the Serb people.

 4        A.   I believe I tried to explain a moment ago what the reason was for

 5     drafting this dispatch.  It wasn't drafted by me but by an inspector from

 6     my administration.  I tried to explain what the reason was for its

 7     dispatch.  The reason was the propaganda --

 8        Q.   Mr. Macar, no, no.  I don't want you to repeat your answer you've

 9     just given.  I seek to tender this document, Your Honour.

10        A.   I had no time to provide an answer.

11        Q.   Mr. Macar, I think --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Let him answer the question, if he feels necessary.

13             Yes?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There is no background context to

15     this dispatch.  It was created as a result of a propaganda broadcast on

16     TV, where as proof of Serbian crimes, the viewers could see footage from

17     a Serb village in the Drina region.  A mother was filmed as kissing the

18     skull of her own son and yet she was portrayed as the mother of a Muslim

19     victim killed by Serbs.  One of the cameramen, because the footage ended

20     up in archives, in consultation with his bosses, provided additional

21     information so that we could inform the public about the true nature of

22     it and to document the rest of the crimes.  There is no other background

23     to this dispatch.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The transcript.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We will receive this.

Page 39491

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6385, Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript, may I?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 14, the witness said, "one

 5     of the inspectors," rather than "one of the cameramen."

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Mr. Macar, I want to now ask you about how the RS MUP actually

 9     investigated serious crimes against non-Serbs.  You know that the

10     Koricanske Stijene massacre which involved the killing of around 150 to

11     200 men on Mount Vlasic on the 21st of August, 1992, you're aware of

12     that, aren't you?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   When -- when was it that you first became aware of this

15     horrendous incident?

16        A.   I became aware of it for the first time, I think, in

17     September 1992 when I was working on preparing for the move to the new

18     ministry seat in Bijeljina.  I think it was at that time.

19        Q.   What did you do as -- as a de facto head of this crime detention

20     and prevention administration in relation to the investigation into the

21     massacre?

22        A.   The minister of the interior, Mr. Stanisic, once he received

23     information of this crime, sent a dispatch, an order, asking for the most

24     emphatic investigation to be conducted by the Banja Luka CSB.

25        Q.   I'm asking whether you did anything in relation to it.  I don't

Page 39492

 1     want to know about the details about what Banja Luka had to do.  I'm

 2     simply wanting to focus on -- on what you did.  If I can -- if I can just

 3     say, Tomo Kovac, who was the assistant minister for police affairs from

 4     August 1992 through September 1993, testified in the Stanisic/Zupljanin

 5     trial that as the crime enforcer at the time you were in charge of the

 6     activities taken place -- taking place at the time and he said that at

 7     transcript page 27106.  What were those activities that you were involved

 8     in -- that you were in charge of?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could it be placed on the screen to

10     see whether Tomo Kovac said so with regards to the Koricanske Stijene

11     incident or in general?

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, we can do that.  65 ter 25165, please.

13        Q.   We can see here that Mr. Kovac is asked about 120 and 200 Muslims

14     being taken off a bus, lined up along the edge of the cliff and

15     machine-gunned.  And he was asked if he knew about that crime and he said

16     he found out subsequently, and in his answer to when he was asked when he

17     first learned about it, he said --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Do we have that page?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Where is it.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm reading from line -- I'm just about to get

22     to line 7 to 12.  And when he's asked when he first learned about it, he

23     said --

24             JUDGE KWON:  You read from the first line, very well, yes.

25     Please continue.  But read slow, please.

Page 39493

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And he said:

 2             "I don't know.  I cannot state with certainty when I exactly

 3     heard it for the first time but I was not involved in any actions taken

 4     by the ministry with regard to that and therefore cannot comment on the

 5     exact time when I learned about it.  The chief of crime enforcement at

 6     the time, Goran Macar, was in charge of the activities taken at the time.

 7     That much I know.  But I couldn't give you any additional details."

 8        Q.   So, Mr. Macar, what activities were you in charge of?

 9        A.   I'm sorry to see that there was no text in the Serbian.  At the

10     time of the event itself, I was co-ordinator for operational affairs in

11     the crime police administration at the seat of the ministry.  In August

12     and partly September, I worked on one specific task, which was an

13     operation that was being carried out against the group called the

14     Yellow Wasps.  Only in early October or actually in late September, was

15     I tasked by Mr. Stanisic as well as authorised by him, to set up the

16     crime police administration in the headquarters.  As you well know, for

17     as long as the administration was in Pale, it only had a few inspectors,

18     and was not set up per se.  Its proper setup activities were only

19     undertaken once we were in Bijeljina when I was authorised to create a

20     crime department -- the crime administration in the headquarters of the

21     ministry, from scratch.

22        Q.   So your short answer to that is you did nothing in relation to

23     Koricanske Stijene?

24        A.   I don't know how familiar you are with the organisation of the

25     Ministry of the Interior but you should be familiar.  The competence for

Page 39494

 1     shedding more light on various incidents according to the Law on the

 2     Interior and the Law on Criminal Procedure is in the centre of security

 3     services in Banja Luka, and they are supposed to act in relation to that

 4     kind of incident.

 5        Q.   Mr. Macar, you mentioned in your Stanisic/Zupljanin testimony

 6     that two or three perpetrators had been identified but that they were at

 7     the front line.  I think that I'm not going to call the document up,

 8     that's D01882 of the 9th of September from Simo Drljaca.  If you're head

 9     of this crime prevention and detention [sic] administration -- you said

10     that you -- in Stanisic/Zupljanin you said that you went to Banja Luka in

11     March 1993, seven months after the crime; is that right?

12        A.   If you read the statement carefully, and I believe that you did,

13     you could have noticed that after the basic configuration was established

14     for the administration at headquarters, in November 1992, mid-November,

15     as a matter of fact --

16        Q.   Mr. Macar, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but my question was you

17     went to Banja Luka in March 1993; is that right?  Can you answer that

18     question?

19        A.   I can answer the question.  I was in Banja Luka both in March and

20     in November, and one is linked to the other as well as to your statement,

21     What did you do over those seven months.  It would only be proper for me

22     to respond, wouldn't it?

23        Q.   Well, let me put it like this:  If -- if there was information in

24     September that there were two people -- two or three people named who

25     were part of the traffic police that were assisting this convoy get

Page 39495

 1     through get through Mount Vlasic, and at that point, from -- from

 2     September through till -- through till March, nothing is being done,

 3     don't you think that -- that it's -- how hard would it have been for

 4     anyone in the RS MUP or the investigative judge, in fact, even, to pick

 5     up the -- the phone to the -- to the corps command and say, We want these

 6     people back from the front?

 7        A.   What's the question, after all of that?

 8        Q.   That nothing was done, nothing, nothing at all was done about

 9     trying to identify the perpetrators to this crime.

10        A.   That is your assertion.  The centre of public security that is

11     supposed to act, in charge of acting, they carried out checks and

12     activities related to the identification, that is to say starting with

13     the on-site investigation up to identification in accordance with the

14     law.  If you're asking me whether I personally took part in the actual

15     operations involved, no, I did not because it was not my job to do that.

16     I -- may I finish?

17        Q.   Yes.

18        A.   At the end of September, I was given the task to set up the crime

19     police administration at the seat of the ministry.  That does not mean

20     that the centre of public security in Banja Luka was not doing its own

21     work.

22        Q.   Mr. Macar, when you went there in November, knowing that they had

23     this -- sorry, in March.  You said that you went there in March and --

24     and this is at transcript page 25387, you said -- you were asked, when in

25     March when you were informed -- when you went to talk about the status of

Page 39496

 1     the Koricanske Stijene case were you briefed, were you presented a

 2     report, or did you inspect the files of the crime police of Banja Luka

 3     CSB?  You said, No, I didn't inspect the files.  I was briefed by the

 4     relevant officer of the crime service there.  Now, knowing that nothing

 5     had taken place in seven months in trying to establish the identity of

 6     these perpetrators when everyone knew that it was the police that were

 7     involved, didn't you think it was incumbent upon you and your

 8     administration to go through the files in Banja Luka, to go through the

 9     files in Prijedor, perhaps find the pay lists for August 1992 for the --

10     for the police, start interviewing those people?

11        A.   In order to view the situation better, and in order for it not to

12     appear as if we had been passive, I have to remind you of something.  The

13     representatives of the crime police administration in mid-November 1992

14     went to Banja Luka.  I was there, too, together with a few inspectors.

15     Information about crime was supposed to be one of the subjects dealt

16     with, and that included the Koricanske Stijene file as well.  You have my

17     statement that I gave in the Stanisic case.  You could see that no

18     meeting took place because of certain technical omissions of the leading

19     people at the Security Services Centre.  Also, we can see from that

20     statement that we proceeded to Prijedor --

21        Q.   Mr. Macar, if I can stop you there.  You -- you actually --

22     because of, as you say, a technical omission, either between

23     Stojan Zupljanin or Djuro Bulic who was the deputy, you didn't get to

24     speak to the -- to the chief of whoever you wanted to speak to but there

25     were other people within that crime administration department in

Page 39497

 1     Banja Luka that you could have spoken to and you chose not to.  And then

 2     you -- and then you -- you left to go to Prijedor.

 3        A.   No.  The meeting did not take place.  Everybody from the centre

 4     was doing their own job.  Also, we had these financial constraints,

 5     I mean spending a few days in Banja Luka, you can see that from a series

 6     of our reports and that's why we proceeded to Prijedor because the plan

 7     was for us to go to Prijedor on that same day.  We planned time in

 8     accordance with the resource that we had in terms of our stay in the

 9     area.  Unfortunately, the meeting was not held.  As you can see from my

10     statement in the Stanisic case it wasn't held in Prijedor either, because

11     of what Mr. Drljaca did, I explained that in that statement, and we

12     returned without completing our mission.  We returned to Bijeljina.  And

13     the next time I went to the Banja Luka centre was in March, and then

14     I asked to receive information about the crime situation in the territory

15     of the centre inter alia about the Koricanske Stijene file.  That was not

16     supervision.

17        Q.   Mr. Macar, you didn't -- you didn't ask -- you didn't look at any

18     of the files, you simply received a briefing from the officer that was

19     present there.  And from that point on, even in March 1993, nothing is

20     done in relation to this case until even -- to even to the end of the

21     conflict in 1995 and more, and then in 1999 the RS authorities begin to

22     pick it up again and then still nothing.  And it's not until the -- the

23     prosecutor's office in Bosnia-Herzegovina in 2003 actually do something

24     about it when they issue indictments against these people, and of course

25     the ICTY had issued an indictment against one of the perpetrators that

Page 39498

 1     was in the Intervention Platoon in the Prijedor police.  So when you went

 2     there in -- in 1993, in March, and you said, Oh, something has to be

 3     done, nothing was done, and you didn't, it appears, do anything to follow

 4     it up.  And you're supposed to be the head of the crime prevention and

 5     detention -- detection administration.

 6        A.   Question?

 7        Q.   I'm saying isn't it right that you -- nothing was done about this

 8     case until the police prosecutor in Bosnia issued indictments in 2003 and

 9     the ICTY did something about it when they issued their indictment against

10     one of the police involved?

11        A.   I don't know what the BH Prosecutor's office did.  However, had

12     you not interrupted me you could have heard, and you also have that in my

13     statement, in March when I went to visit the Banja Luka centre from the

14     then-head of the crime police and other top personnel were present, I was

15     informed about what they had done in that case.  I received information

16     then, and as I said in my previous statement I cannot recall exactly,

17     there were a few suspects, two, four, six, eight, I cannot really say

18     what the figures would be, and allegedly they were fugitives and they

19     were somewhere in the army.

20             Also, I was informed that they established contact with the

21     military police, once they received this kind of information, and they

22     asked for these persons to be brought into custody.  I absolutely

23     received no information on the basis of which I would have any doubts

24     regarding what that person had told me.  We --

25        Q.   Mr. Macar, I would like to move on.  You mentioned a moment ago

Page 39499

 1     that when you were -- in August of 1992 you were -- you were in Bijeljina

 2     investigating the Yellow Wasps.  You were -- you sent a report back to

 3     the RS minister on the 4th of August, 1992.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have Exhibit P02904, please -- oh,

 5     I'm sorry, I need 65 ter number 1D03658 first.  And, Your Honour, that

 6     document that was just on the screen, the page of transcript from

 7     Stanisic/Zupljanin, I don't intend to tender because it was the -- the

 8     relevant passage was read into the record.

 9        Q.   Mr. Macar, this is the cover letter to Mico Stanisic, isn't it,

10     that -- that you -- you forwarded the statements and -- and a report; is

11     that right?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I tender this -- I seek to tender this document,

14     Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6386, Your Honour.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have P0290 -- start again.  P02904.

18     It's P02904.

19        Q.   Now, this is a report -- you're familiar with this report, aren't

20     you, Mr. Macar?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And in fact, you said in Stanisic/Zupljanin that this was an

23     unsigned report which was produced by employees of the crime prevention

24     administration and in part by personnel from the Bijeljina SJB who took

25     part in the procedure, and that was at transcript page 2300 -- 000.  If

Page 39500

 1     we could go to page 4 of -- the last page, please, the last paragraph of

 2     the report, it mentions that information obtained by the Serb armed

 3     forces military police and the MUP national security operatives indicate

 4     that Dusan Vukovic, aka Repic, was committing massacre-genocide over

 5     civilians of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina of the Muslim

 6     ethnicity.  And then you said verification and materialisation of these

 7     informations was being taken care of by the Serb armed forces military

 8     police in co-operation with the MUP international security operatives.

 9             Now, given that you were aware of this information that they were

10     involved in serious crimes against civilians, why then was the criminal

11     charges that were raised by Andan, why did they only include car theft

12     and not allegations about these crimes that had been committed?

13        A.   As is well known to the Prosecution, I know that you have that

14     documentation as well, as for this group, it is the military security

15     organs that were supposed to deal with them and the military Prosecutor's

16     office.  I personally did not take part in planning this operation of

17     disarming and arresting them and planning further activities.  Had

18     I taken part in that, my proposal would have been the following:  The

19     Ministry of the Interior, the crime prevention employees should be

20     helping the military security organs in shedding more light on --

21        Q.   Can I stop you there?  Your answer, I think, is non-responsive.

22     I asked you why did it only -- why did the criminal charges only include

23     car theft and not these allegations of which the MUP were aware of.  That

24     was my question, not about anything to do with an operation to arrest

25     these people.  I'm asking you about the criminal charges that were filed

Page 39501

 1     after they were arrested.

 2        A.   If you would please be so kind as to allow me to finish, then you

 3     would understand that that is an answer to your question, and what I was

 4     saying was in that context actually.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please try to answer in a simpler manner, yes.  At

 6     times you didn't answer the question.  That's why Ms. Sutherland

 7     interrupted a couple of times.  Let's go back to the question.  Could you

 8     put your question again, Ms. Sutherland?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   Mr. Macar, why -- why were not allegations about the involvement

11     of certain individuals in crimes committed against the civilian non-Serb

12     population, why were they not included in the criminal charges which were

13     raised against these people, in addition to the grand larceny of a number

14     of vehicles?

15        A.   The commission of crimes of any kind by these perpetrators was

16     within the jurisdiction of the military and that's what I've been trying

17     to tell you.  Even what the -- even the crimes that the police had dealt

18     with, it was the military security organs that were supposed to deal with

19     this and the military Prosecutor's office.  That's why I said if I had

20     taken part in this operation, it wouldn't have been the police that would

21     have brought charges against these people.  We would have helped the

22     military organs to prosecute and deal with the matter.  Because this kind

23     of crime would be within the jurisdiction of the military Prosecutor's

24     office.

25        Q.   Okay.  We will get to that in one moment but we just need --

Page 39502

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would like to go into private

 2     session for just a couple of minutes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4                           [Private session]

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 39503

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17                           [Open session]

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Now, Mr. Repic [sic], I also want to show you another statement?

20             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, I note that you spent all the time

21     allotted to you.  The Chamber will take a break now for 20 minutes, after

22     which I would expect you to conclude within ten minutes.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

24             JUDGE KWON:  We will resume at 12.13.

25                           --- Recess taken at 11 .53 a.m.

Page 39504

 1                           --- On resuming at 12.14 p.m.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   Mr. Macar, I have a bit of a faux pas, I called you Mr. Repic

 5     just before the break.  I apologise.

 6             If we could have 65 ter 25203, please?

 7        A.   I accept your apology.

 8        Q.   This is a statement dated the 4th of August, 1992, taken by the

 9     military police.  It's an official note after interviewing Dusko Vukovic,

10     aka Repic.  He then makes the following statement, and in it, in

11     paragraph 2 at the bottom of the -- the last paragraph on page 1, going

12     over on to page 2, and in the B/C/S on page 2, the second paragraph --

13     no, page 1, sorry -- no, at page 2 of the B/C/S, starting, "We were taken

14     to the Sabac prison."  Just down into that paragraph:

15             "Until the 10th of June, 1992, I wandered aimlessly around

16     Zvornik and then I heard about a prison for Muslims at Celopek.  I went

17     to Celopek on the same day and got into the prison for Muslims who had

18     been arrested at Divic."

19               And then he talks about what he does, "I organised a boxing

20     match between the prisoners in the hall, gave them bats to hit each

21     other.  He got bored with that and then he took a small-calibre rifle

22     which an acquaintance of his was carrying and fired 15 shots into the

23     prisoners.  I finished off some of the wounded prisoners by stabbing them

24     in the heart with a knife, and I cut the ears off some."

25             JUDGE KWON:  Slow, slow.

Page 39505

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 2        Q.   [As read] "And I cut the ears off some.  I don't remember the

 3     exact number of people that I did this to."  And then he goes on, "After

 4     killing several prisoners, I called the reserve policeman-guards to find

 5     a truck and ordered four Muslims to load the bodies of the dead prisoners

 6     on the truck.  After that, I went with two reserve policemen to a gravel

 7     pit and made the four Muslims unload the bodies after which the reserve

 8     policemen were shot and killed them."

 9             Now, he says that he thinks there were two people with him and

10     names them there in this statement.

11             Now, Mr. Macar, this is -- this is information involving or

12     alleging that reserve policemen were involved in this incident with

13     Repic.

14             Why weren't -- why wasn't an investigation made in relation to --

15     in relation to this incident?

16        A.   I see this statement for the first time.  I don't know if it was

17     presented in the Stanisic case.

18        Q.   Yes, it was it was presented to you in the Stanisic/Zupljanin

19     trial.

20        A.   All right.  But anyway, it wasn't forwarded to the MUP staff.

21     And if you had let me finish earlier, when I was saying that I took part

22     in the planning of activities, the planning in which I took part would

23     have been led by the military police in co-operation with the staff of

24     our ministry, and not on two separate tracks.  At that time, it was not

25     forwarded to us, nor was this done later, so that we could plan and take

Page 39506

 1     some measures.

 2        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Macar, I just need to make a correction to the

 3     transcript.  On page 18 -- line 18 on page 54 -- or line 17:  After that

 4     I went to two reserve policemen to a gravel pit and made the Muslims --

 5     and the four Muslims unload the bodies after which the reserve policemen

 6     were shot and killed them.

 7             It actually says, "... where the reserve policemen shot and

 8     killed them."  I'm sorry.

 9             In any event, Mr. Macar, you knew about the -- the --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript, please.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 55, in line 6, the witness

13     said, "If I had taken part, it would have been this way or that," so not

14     that "I took part" but "had I taken part."

15             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   Mr. Macar, you were heading up this -- this investigation, were

18     you not?

19        A.   In the segment that was assigned to the crime police, and we were

20     sent to the SJB in Bijeljina to help them out --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat what he said

22     after the first sentence?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   Mr. Macar you're being asked to repeat the -- repeat your answer

25     after the first sentence -- after the first sentence, where you said:

Page 39507

 1             "In the segment that was assigned to the crime police, and we

 2     were sent to the SJB in Bijeljina to help them out."

 3             The interpreters haven't caught what you said after that point

 4     but -- so can you please go on from there?

 5        A.   According to the agreement between the representatives of the MUP

 6     and the military police, we were in charge of some things and that's what

 7     we did.  It was mostly crimes against property.  And the information that

 8     we may have obtained in interviewing those deprived of liberty, we

 9     forwarded to the military police.  Information of this kind was never

10     received from the military bodies, at least I did not, and I was the head

11     of that crime police group.

12        Q.   Mr. Macar, we just looked at P02905 which was the report that you

13     annexed to the cover letter that you sent to Stanisic, in that last

14     paragraph it said the military police and the MUP are aware that genocide

15     was being committed against the Muslims.  So you had information at your

16     fingertips that MUP -- that crimes were being committed.  And why didn't

17     you further investigate those crimes?

18        A.   I believe I answered this question earlier.  Crimes, and I mean

19     all crimes committed by this group, was in the remit of military bodies,

20     that is the military police and the military Prosecutor's office.

21        Q.   This -- this statement, Mr. Repic's statement clearly says that

22     reserve policemen were guards at Celopek were involved in crimes.  Now,

23     as -- as -- as a head of the administration, it's incumbent upon you to

24     follow up with crimes against civilians, is it not?

25        A.   I don't know if my previous statement has been correctly

Page 39508

 1     interpreted to you.  I think so.  I said that the statement taken by the

 2     military from the person in question was never forwarded to the MUP --

 3     or, rather, the representative of the MUP working on that case.  We had

 4     separate facilities.  There was a group in the SJB of Bijeljina and there

 5     was the military police, and the military Prosecutor's office had their

 6     own facilities, separate ones.  We never got this information so as to be

 7     able to act upon it.  We never received it either orally or in writing.

 8        Q.   There is evidence that you knew that that crimes had been

 9     committed and if -- and if the military police were not doing anything

10     about it, your police, the civilian police, should have taken the matter

11     up and investigated it.

12        A.   Although you're insisting, we hadn't -- had no access to

13     information about what the military bodies were doing, that is the

14     military police, the military prosecutor's office, based on which we may

15     have known that somebody weren't doing their job.  The military police or

16     the military prosecutor's office never briefed us about their activities,

17     nor was it part of our remit, nor could we control them or their actions

18     under the law.

19        Q.   I'm sorry, I misspoke a moment ago when I said it was

20     Exhibit P2905, it's in fact P2904.  Then why do you put in this report

21     that the information obtained by the Serb armed forces military police

22     and the MUP national security operatives indicate that Dusan Vukovic, aka

23     Repic, was committing a massacre?  So you are aware that he was -- he was

24     involved in crime against -- crimes against non-Serbs.  So you keep

25     saying that you're not -- you weren't aware of this particular statement

Page 39509

 1     but then how come in the bottom of your report you say that you're aware

 2     of crimes committed by him?

 3        A.   If you listened carefully, or perhaps my sentences are long and

 4     therefore not so easy to follow, it is beyond doubt that we had

 5     information that Repic had committed some crimes.  We didn't have

 6     specific information saying that he did this or that in place X or Y.

 7     But that was all in the remit of the military police and the military

 8     security bodies.

 9        Q.   You say in P2904 that you've got information that he committed

10     crimes against Muslims in Celopek.  That's exactly what he says he's

11     doing in this statement.  I would like to move on.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour --

13        Q.   I'm sorry, Mr. Macar, I would like to move on.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  First of all, the

16     witness ought to be able to answer the question which wasn't really a

17     question but was some testimony by Ms. Sutherland, but he ought to be

18     able to comment on it before we move on.  Secondly, we object to the

19     statement because the witness hasn't confirmed anything, and it doesn't

20     contradict his testimony as there is no evidence that he would have been

21     expected to have -- this to have come into his knowledge.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Ms. Sutherland?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, it goes to the witness's

24     credit.  He said that he --

25             JUDGE KWON:  How does it go to the credibility of this witness?

Page 39510

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Because he said he sent P2904 to Mico Stanisic.

 2     In P2904 it states exactly that -- that Dusan Vukovic, aka Repic, is

 3     involved in crimes in Celopek.  This statement of Repic's says exactly

 4     that.  And so it's whether you want to believe this witness when he says

 5     that he wasn't aware of this [overlapping speakers]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Sp my question is:  Does it bolster his credibility?

 7     Or it contradicts his [overlapping speakers]

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It contradicts his credibility.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  How?  How?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well -- it -- it's whether you believe him when

11     he says that he hasn't received this statement.  You can draw an

12     inference from --

13             JUDGE KWON:  So it is your case that this document says that he

14     received this document?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm saying that the information contained in

18     65 ter 25203 is exactly the information that is contained in P904 about

19     the facts of -- of -- of Dusan Vukovic, aka Repic, committing crimes in

20     Celopek.  Now, whether this witness is to be believed as to whether he

21     was aware of this statement is -- is a matter for you, and I'm saying

22     that -- that you should have this evidence in front of you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may, I would like ask this

24     document to be identified.  Whose military police is this?  Is there a

25     number?  Is there a signature?

Page 39511

 1             JUDGE KWON:  No, thank you.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Mr. Robinson.  We will not

 4     admit this.  And I'm seeing the clock.  How many more questions?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I had two topics, one question on

 6     one topic and a couple of very brief questions on the other topic, if

 7     you'll allow me.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   Mr. Macar, in paragraph 31 of your statement you said that you

11     were present at several meetings where Dr. Karadzic was also present.

12     When was the very first meeting you had with him?

13        A.   I remember that meeting well.  I don't believe Mr. Karadzic would

14     remember --

15        Q.   Can I just have the date?  Can I just have the time period not

16     the details of the meeting?  I just want the date first.

17        A.   The first contact with Mr. Karadzic was in April, probably in the

18     second half of April 1992.  And that was when I first met Mr. Karadzic.

19        Q.   And were -- at this meeting were specific cases discussed, for

20     example, Arkan's group, Mauzer?

21        A.   No.  Mr. Koljevic was present at that meeting, then Mr. Buha,

22     Mr. Ostojic and some other people.  I believe that Mrs. Plavsic was there

23     too.

24        Q.   When was the -- sorry, when was the next meeting?  You said you

25     were present at several meetings.  When was the next meeting after this

Page 39512

 1     meeting in second half of April?

 2        A.   I'm now pressing backwards based on memory.  I was there in 1994,

 3     in 1993, 1992.  I think this was the only meeting that I attended.  But

 4     in 1993, 1994 and in 1995.

 5        Q.   Okay.

 6        A.   Even, if I may assist you, in 1994 I called a meeting --

 7        Q.   Mr. Macar, I'm interested in meetings that you had with him in

 8     1992 and you mentioned the one in the second half of April.

 9        A.   Yes, yes.

10        Q.   I want to now, because of time, move on to my last topic and that

11     is about -- you said a number of SJBs had some sort of special units

12     which were neither directed nor approved by the ministry and were against

13     regulations.  Are you confining it to -- you mention SJBs but do you

14     confine it to SJBs only or do you include also special units at the

15     regional level?  Because also in paragraph 20 you say later in the second

16     half of 1992 these units were disbanded and most of their numbers came

17     under the VRS command.  So my question is, is it -- are you confining it

18     only to SJB special units or are you also talking about units -- special

19     units, at the regional level?

20        A.   Not all stations had that kind of staff but there were some --

21        Q.   Mr. Macar, it's a yes or a no answer.  Are you confining it to

22     SJBs or not?

23        A.   There were some with the centres too, not only the stations but

24     also the public security centres, not all.

25        Q.   Okay.  And you say that they were -- were neither approved by the

Page 39513

 1     ministry -- or they were neither directed or approved by the ministry;

 2     right?  I want to ask you about --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Do not overlap with the translation.

 4     I'm not sure the witness understood your question.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, I'm sorry, Your Honour, I just see the

 6     transcript now.

 7        Q.   You just mentioned just then that you were in -- in -- in

 8     addition to the SJBs you were also including in this statement that you

 9     make in paragraph 20 that it also includes special units at the regional

10     level.  That's correct, isn't it?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And so I want to know whether you were present when -- well, I'll

13     go back a moment.  Zupljanin established a special unit in

14     early May 1992.  I see you smirking.  That's documented in D01536.  And

15     there was an official parade held in Banja Luka on the 12th of May, 1992,

16     to celebrate the creation of this unit at which Minister Stanisic

17     attended along with Zupljanin, Karadzic, Krajisnik, Koljevic, Brdjanin

18     and the RS deputies.  Were you present that day when -- at the official

19     parade?

20        A.   No, I was not.

21        Q.   So if there was this parade in front of the minister along with

22     Karadzic, Krajisnik and others, then it appears to be approval by the

23     minister, does it not?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection.  It's calling for speculation.  He

25     already said he wasn't there.  He's not an expert witness.

Page 39514

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Why does he need an expertise to answer this

 2     question?  If not --

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  What is the basis for him to answer this question

 4     in any -- he's simply a member of the ministry being asked to comment on

 5     something he wasn't present at or didn't have any knowledge of, at least

 6     so far.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  So as a member of the ministry, would you agree that

 8     such parade could not be conducted without the approval of the minister?

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I think it's fair enough to ask that question, yes.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   Mr. Macar?

13        A.   If there was a parade of a special unit or maybe a police parade,

14     the police of the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, then we must

15     distinguish.  If it was a parade of the Special Police, certainly he

16     knew, but we must identify whether it was a parade of the police, which

17     at that time got uniforms and insignia and so on, which could have been a

18     parade of the police of the public security station or the centre or

19     something.

20        Q.   Mr. Macar, I don't have time to play you the videotape but in the

21     beginning of the rally, the parade, Mr. Zupljanin says:

22             "Respectful ladies and gentlemen, dear country men and prominent

23     guests, I have the pleasure to greet and thank you for coming to give

24     importance to this humble celebration of marking the 13th of May --"

25     sorry, I misspoke a moment ago, "The day of the security organs and

Page 39515

 1     services when we promote the police insignia of the Serbian Republic of

 2     Bosnia-Herzegovina and the promotion of the special detachment of the CSB

 3     Banja Luka."

 4             And then he greets all the guests, Karadzic, Krajisnik, Koljevic,

 5     Milan Martic, Boro Djukic, Mico Stanisic, Cedo Kljajic, Momo Mandic and

 6     all the deputies and guests of the session.  Another name which is

 7     Stojan Spanojevic [phoen], I think.  So it is in relation to the police

 8     and in particular the CSB special detachment, special unit.  So are you

 9     able to, in answer to the question --

10        A.   If this has nothing to do with the Special Police, that's a

11     question I cannot answer but I know that Minister Stanisic demanded that

12     all units established in the first half or, rather, from April until July

13     or August 1992, be disbanded.  I was present at the parade at Sokolac on

14     the 30th of March.  It was a promotion of uniforms in the Krajina and the

15     insignia, but I don't have information whether Special Police was

16     established in Banja Luka.  So I couldn't comment.  I know of some other

17     cases, but I cannot confirm if the special unit was at the parade and if

18     anybody heard Stojan Zupljanin say that he had a special unit.  Anyway,

19     it doesn't mean that he was established with the approval of the

20     minister.  I'm afraid I cannot make a comment that could shed more light

21     on what you're interested in.

22        Q.   Mr. Macar, I'll just follow up on one thing that you said about

23     attending that Sokolac parade on the 30th of March.  You -- you testified

24     in Stanisic/Zupljanin, did you not, that -- that it wasn't only Sokolac

25     police, it was for the autonomous region of Romanija, and that there was

Page 39516

 1     also people there, police officers from Ilijas and Pale.  And that was on

 2     the 30th of March, 1992, which was -- which was one day before

 3     Momo Mandic sent out the dispatch saying there is going to be an RS MUP.

 4     That -- that's the Sokolac parade that you're talking about that you

 5     attended, isn't it?

 6        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 7        Q.   And you did say that it was not only Sokolac police but also Pale

 8     and Ilijas police forces were there?

 9        A.   Yes.  There was also a parade of the police of public security

10     stations.

11        Q.   And my final question is:  And these same special units that you

12     just said a moment ago were disbanded by -- on the minister's

13     instruction, was that the same special units that were awarded

14     commendations by Karadzic in November 1993 and you were shown that

15     document in -- in Stanisic/Zupljanin, the list, P092978?  Is that the

16     same special units you're talk about that were disbanded?

17        A.   The composition cannot have been the same, and there were

18     transformations in all those units.  I really can't remember if anybody

19     from the original composition of the unit who remained afterwards,

20     because I really didn't know these people, and I wasn't in charge of

21     special units anyway.  I don't know if I answered your question.

22        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Macar, I have no further questions.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Your Honour, I thank you very much for the

24     indulgence of the extra time.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic?

Page 39517

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.  I

 2     have a few questions and I will start with the latest topic from page 65.

 3                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 4        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Macar, were these the only units of the

 5     Special Police or were they the PJP units, and was there a special unit

 6     at the level of the ministry which existed with the approval and was

 7     created by the minister?

 8        A.   At the level of the ministry, there was a detachment of the

 9     Special Police commanded by Mr. Milenko Karisik.  It was the only regular

10     unit established with the approval of the MUP.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know whether I praised that unit or the ones

12     that were disbanded?

13        A.   I know you commended the unit commanded by Mr. Karisik.  You

14     reminded me now, perhaps that's what Madam Prosecutor had in mind when

15     she mentioned the transformation, that unit was transformed in 1993.  It

16     was split into five parts.  From that unit, dislocated companies were

17     established in the centres, in Bijeljina, Banja Luka, Sarajevo and

18     Trebinje.  So it was a result of the transformation of that unit.  It had

19     nothing to do with the units from Banja Luka or any other location.  By

20     that time, General Saric was in command.

21        Q.   Thank you.  It was stated that on the 13th of May, there was a

22     parade of either that unit or that it was present during the security day

23     celebrations.  Do you know when the security day was established?

24        A.   The 13th of May holiday is something that existed in the previous

25     regime, and we chose a different day to celebrate the Ministry of the

Page 39518

 1     Interior which is the 4th of April.  The 13th of May remained from the

 2     previous regime.  It was a holiday of the security organs.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could Minister Stanisic have as early as the

 4     13th of May, 1992, information and evidence that the units that existed

 5     were inadequate and should be disbanded?

 6        A.   No, in no case.  And not only pertaining to those units, we did

 7     not receive regular information from the field as per Serb-held

 8     municipalities.  We didn't even receive information from the respective

 9     security stations and CSBs.  All communication was down.

10        Q.   Thank you.  It was suggested that the police parade took place on

11     the 30th of March.  Do you know what the date was when the Assembly of

12     the Serbian People session was held, when the decision on the

13     implementation of the Cutileiro Plan was reached regarding the police as

14     well?

15        A.   It was in March, as far as I recall.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic repeat his question?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic?

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Was it before the 30th, before the parade?

20        A.   Yes, it was before the parade.  I recall that because my

21     then-superior, Mr. Jozo Leutar, told me that there would be a

22     transformation within the MUP and it would be split into three parts.  He

23     also said that the Croats had already established their headquarters in

24     Mostar and that they were working on equipping their force in keeping

25     with the Cutileiro Plan.  That is why I remember that the parade took

Page 39519

 1     place after the Cutileiro Plan.

 2        Q.   After the Cutileiro Plan and certain arrangements within the MUP,

 3     is that what you said?

 4        A.   Yes, precisely.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  When you drafted your report and sent it to

 6     Minister Stanisic --

 7             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic kindly repeat the exhibit

 8     number.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did Mr. Repic -- was he at large at the time?

11        A.   I can't recall whether he was still at large but he -- in any

12     case, he was unavailable in the course of the first few days.  I don't

13     know whether he was held by the military police, though.  In any case, he

14     wasn't among those who were brought to the public security station.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat the document number

16     you referred to?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, it is P029024, which was used

18     a few times today.  It is Mr. Macar's report to the Minister Stanisic --

19     to Minister Stanisic.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Mr. Macar, do you remember when the arrest of the Yellow Wasps

22     was carried out?

23        A.   The Yellow Wasps were arrested, I think, in late July, up to the

24     1st of August, I think.  That's when it was completed.  On the

25     3rd of August, I arrived with the group in Bijeljina.

Page 39520

 1        Q.   Thank you.  On page 46, you were asked about what was done and

 2     what was not done concerning the investigation of crimes.  Can you tell

 3     us this:  When was an investigating judge made part of that

 4     investigation?

 5        A.   The investigating judge was included only once the judiciary was

 6     established in Republika Srpska.  In the specific case of

 7     Koricanske Stijene, there was an investigating judge as well as a

 8     prosecutor and a military prosecutor, and the investigating judge was in

 9     charge of the on-site investigation.

10        Q.   Thank you.  On page 48 you mentioned a chief of the crime service

11     from the Banja Luka centre.  Can you explain to us what administrations

12     existed within the MUP and how far did the lines within the organisation

13     go, if they existed?

14        A.   There was a crime police administration, the uniformed police

15     administration -- apologies, the communications administration, and

16     encoding administration, the personnel and legal affairs administration.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Let us stay with your administration.

18        A.   Yes, there was also the administration for materiel and financial

19     affairs.

20        Q.   Thank you.  With regard to your administration, your service,

21     were there any lines which went down and how far down did it go?

22        A.   Within the administration, in late 1992, we established a line

23     for white-collar crime, general crime, and later on there was a

24     department to combat drugs traffic -- trafficking.  In the CSBs, there

25     was a sector or department for crime prevention and they had their groups

Page 39521

 1     for general crime, white-collar crime, and scene-of-crime officers.  In

 2     the seat of the administration it was only in 1993 that we established a

 3     scene of crime centre.  In the public security stations, there were

 4     smaller groups of inspectors who had one or no scene-of-crime officers,

 5     which was the case particularly at the beginning of the war.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Who was in charge of investigating crimes within or

 7     inside that line?

 8        A.   All investigating procedures were in charge of -- were tasked --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness kindly start again?

10             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer?  Start -- please start

11     over again.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  And could the witness approach the microphone

13     as well.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness kindly

15     be asked to speak closer to the microphones.  Thank you.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you come closer to the microphone?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's my back.  That's why I pulled

18     back.  Apologies.

19             Public security stations dealt with such crimes which were within

20     the remit of the municipal and district prosecutor's offices.  All crimes

21     committed by unidentified perpetrators were part of the public security

22     station remit.  Financial crime or white-collar crime, that was within

23     the remit of the CSBs.  Public security stations dealt mainly with

24     property climbs and small-scale crimes, petty crime.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 39522

 1        Q.   Thank you.  You also mentioned that you did not carry out

 2     supervision in November through March in the Banja Luka CSB.  What did

 3     you mean by that?  And was the administration in charge of investigating

 4     from its headquarters?

 5        A.   As for supervision in 1992 and 1993, we did not carry it out in

 6     any CSB or station.  First of all, we did not have enough personnel and

 7     we did not have materiel and equipment which would enable us to visit all

 8     CSBs and stations.  Supervising a CSB takes at least between 10 and 15

 9     days, we did not have people or means to be in a particular centre for 15

10     days in order to carry out supervision, which is also something that you

11     can see from our reports and collegium meetings that are available to

12     both the Prosecution and Defence because I mentioned a few times that we

13     were short of resources in terms of personnel and supplies and that

14     I could not send out inspectors in the field unless properly equipped by

15     the administration.

16        Q.   Thank you.  As for the level of the ministry and the

17     administration in the headquarters, were investigations carried out that

18     were otherwise within the remit of stations and CSBs?

19        A.   Only in exceptionally on minister's orders could the inspectors

20     from the crime prevention administration go to CSBs or stations to assist

21     with particular cases.  I would also like to add that in the CSB of

22     Banja Luka they had better personnel in terms of numbers and training to

23     deal with those issues.  We barely had a minimum correspondence to carry

24     out communication between CSBs, the ministry and stations.  We also

25     rarely went out into the field in order to acquaint ourselves with the

Page 39523

 1     security station in the CSBs and stations, in order have a full picture

 2     of the situation in the field.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  How did you understand my --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  For planning purpose I'd like to know how much more

 5     do you have?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think around ten minutes,

 7     Your Excellencies.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue after lunch break?

 9             THE ACCUSED:  As you like.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

12             JUDGE KWON:  If it is okay with the witness we'll then continue

13     ten minutes and then conclude this witness's evidence.  Please continue.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Were there casualties among Serb civilians in the federal part of

18     Bosnia-Herzegovina and did you have access in order to carry out

19     investigations of such crimes?

20        A.   We gathered and received information but we couldn't carry out

21     investigations in that part of the field.

22        Q.   Thank you.  On page 33, it was suggested that you issued tasks

23     with regard to collecting information on crimes over Serb civilians.

24     Does gathering information equal carrying -- the carrying out of an

25     investigation?

Page 39524

 1        A.   No.  Let me expand on this and I would have done so had I been

 2     allowed by Madam Prosecutor.  Large population migrations took place from

 3     the Muslim and Croat-held territory to the Serb-controlled territory.

 4     There were hundreds of thousands of people who had information about the

 5     events from towns and municipalities they hailed, and we had to talk to

 6     them and gather information about the events and crimes, et cetera.  That

 7     is why we placed a particular stress on it, on several occasions.  A

 8     large number of that population went on through to Serbia and we were

 9     afraid they would become unavailable so we strove to carry out as many

10     conversations and interviews as possible while they were still in our

11     part of the territory.

12        Q.   How did you understand my position vis-a-vis investigating crimes

13     committed against Serbs and Muslims?

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction:  Croats and Muslims.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In principal, whenever I attended

16     any meetings you asked most emphatically to discover the perpetrators of

17     all crimes.  You also stressed the importance of shedding light on crimes

18     against the non-Serb population both from the point of view of the

19     reputation of Republika Srpska and in terms of possible reactions of the

20     public.  To add on to something that I was asked by Madam Prosecutor, in

21     1993 I think it was in October, in the first part of October, there was a

22     meeting in Pale which I initiated, where the RS Prosecutor was in

23     attendance as well as the president of the military prosecutor's office,

24     representatives of the Main Staff and the Ministry of Justice.  The topic

25     was working on dealing with war crimes and the flow of information.

Page 39525

 1     I remember you came in to greet all those present and you asked very

 2     energetically that all should do their utmost to speed up the detection

 3     of discovery perpetrators of such crimes irrespective of the ethnic

 4     background of either the perpetrators or victims.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  To your knowledge, was there any cover-up of crimes

 6     irrespective of whether the perpetrator was known and available or not?

 7        A.   I'll start with myself.  Since I began working for the service,

 8     I never asked anyone to cover up or commit a crime.  We also did not have

 9     information that anyone from the public security stations or CSBs was

10     covering up and holding back information on certain crimes.

11        Q.   If everything was documented, what happened with this process of

12     documenting crimes?

13        A.   The biggest problem was in 1992, so let's start from the

14     beginning.  In most of the RS territory, there were no Prosecutor's

15     offices, no courts, no military prosecutor's offices or military courts.

16     It was only in the second part of the year that we saw the establishment

17     of some.  And in October, there were certain personnel changes because

18     certain people in positions of -- and Prosecutor's offices could not get

19     their bearings.  Much of the material that was gathered simply sat there

20     and was not sent to the judiciary.  As regards the process of

21     documenting, and the documents we sent to the Prosecutor's offices, and

22     those that were still being processed, many of those files were not

23     concluded because information on the perpetrators was mostly unknown.

24     Such material was then left within the respective centres and stations.

25     After the war, as I could see myself, members of SFOR, I don't know

Page 39526

 1     whether they Prosecution representatives with them, but I saw them gather

 2     and seize documents under threat of weapons.  I saw it in 1997 in the

 3     Sarajevo centre.  They simply drive you out of your office and take what

 4     they need.  We could not know what they took.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6        A.   I did not even know whether they displayed on CDs what they took

 7     away then because there were boxes, packages, it was very hard to tell.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  On page 23 today, what was put to you was a document

 9     from the 30th of July, 1992.  And this document confirms that

10     Simo Drljaca was appointed on the 29th of April, 1992.  Can you tell us

11     how come there is this three-month difference and can you tell us whether

12     there had been a decision before this decision and who made this decision

13     on the 29th of April?

14        A.   I'm convinced that the Ministry of the Interior -- rather, the

15     minister, did not give his consent for this decision.  Why it was done in

16     July to cover this period, I don't know.  Because what is logical is,

17     what was displayed here as well, of course it's necessary to have the

18     consents of the minister.  The minister would always give his consent or

19     approval in writing never just by saying so.  If consent was given, then

20     there has to be a written document that should be provided to the

21     security centre or to the organ where a particular person is being

22     appointed.

23        Q.   Thank you.  What comes first and what comes second?  Consent and

24     then employment or the other way around?

25        A.   First there has to be a request from the organ involved, that is

Page 39527

 1     looking for a particular person to take a job, and then certain

 2     requirements have to be met and then the minister is supposed to provide

 3     his consent.  There is a decision on approval that has to be made, and

 4     I think that the legal affairs department in 1992 pointed out these

 5     problems that were occurring on the ground.

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not catch the date.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And as far as I can remember, the

 8     OTP has this information in the Stanisic file.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Interpreters didn't catch the date.  Did you talk

12     about the date?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Sometime towards the end of 1992,

14     the department for personnel and legal affairs compiled a paper in terms

15     of how people were being employed, not only top personnel but police

16     personnel in general.  And they -- they looked at these cases, if you

17     will, when people were admitted without the consent of the ministry.

18     Individual cases were not referred to there but it was the problem that

19     was indicated as such.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned something and then you were

22     interrupted.  During the first few months, there was no system of

23     payments with the Krajina that was functioning.  What did you -- what

24     were you trying to say?

25        A.   I was trying to say that the ministry could not even pay

Page 39528

 1     salaries, and the autonomous region then paid their salaries, and what is

 2     the most important thing is that is not the salaries only, when I'm

 3     speaking of payments, but all the material resources that were provided

 4     by the municipalities to the centre and so on.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  You mentioned on page 33 -- or, rather, a document

 6     was mentioned, P6383, that there was no cash available.  Can you tell us

 7     how come that happened?  How come there was no cash?  Was there a

 8     shortage of cash, and if so why?

 9        A.   Well, of course, when there was no system of payments in place,

10     and in this state of war, transactions as such were brought to a halt and

11     everything that happened.  I mean people were just using cash for

12     payments, for suppliers and so on.  So of course, dinars went outside.

13        Q.   Where was it being printed for new quantities to be made

14     available?

15        A.   In Belgrade, at the office of the national bank.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Last question:  A few documents regarding payments

17     were put to you.  And this had to do with paragraph 20 of your statement.

18     So please do take that statement of yours, it's the last sentence, or the

19     last two sentences.

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot find the

21     document that fast.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [No interpretation]

23             JUDGE KWON:  They are not following.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall repeat.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Read slow, please.  Very slowly.

Page 39529

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   At the end of paragraph 20, these sorts of things were most

 3     common in the ARK.  This somewhat changed for the better when the

 4     Crisis Staffs and autonomous districts were dissolved.

 5             Can you tell us whether you remember when the Crisis Staffs were

 6     abolished?

 7        A.   I think it was sometime in September or October.  I think it was

 8     September 1992, around there, that would be the period.  I don't know the

 9     exact date.

10        Q.   All right.  We believe it's earlier than that, but we'll leave it

11     at that.  Thank you, Mr. Macar.  Oh, I beg your pardon, I do apologise.

12     Please, you were asked about the Yellow Wasps.  So 1D9403, could we

13     briefly take a look at that.  Could you tell us what the attitude was of

14     the MUP specifically towards that group, what was the position of the

15     police vis-a-vis that group?

16        A.   Undeniably the position was that this was a group that was a

17     renegade group, that was not under military control.  So from Zvornik,

18     Vlasenica, these stations sent information to the minister and then the

19     minister to the government and probably to you, too.  So this was the

20     view both of the ministry and of the military that the Yellow Wasps and

21     similar groups should be either disarmed or placed under control, if

22     these are volunteers that they should be transported out into Serbia.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please take a look at this document?  First

24     of all, it was addressed to the crime department and then to national

25     security, and so on.  Could you tell the Trial Chamber what this document

Page 39530

 1     is?  Read if first, please, and then tell us whether you received it,

 2     your department.

 3        A.   Yes, I remember this document.  At the end of 1992, there was a

 4     situation when border checks were better on our border.  As for the

 5     Yellow Wasps, they were wanted for a while, two or three of them, I

 6     cannot remember exactly, and now the station is providing information to

 7     the following, that around 2330 hours, they set out and they wanted to

 8     get into Republika Srpska and they probably reacted, and together with

 9     the police they returned them to Serbia regarding the problems that they

10     had had with them already.

11        Q.   Were there any bans on entering Republika Srpska on these

12     grounds?  Did you know about that?  Did the MUP ban certain people from

13     entering?

14        A.   Well, I cannot remember any bans.  The MUP can react vis-a-vis

15     persons who are wanted persons, and if these are larger groups, of course

16     their movements will be monitored, where they are going, why they are

17     going there, but I do not remember a ban on entry quite literally.

18        Q.   Could you please read out loud the first paragraph because we

19     don't have a translation.

20        A.   You mean this dispatch?

21        Q.   Yes.  Slowly, please.

22        A.   "On the 21st of November, 1992, around 2330 hours, at the border

23     crossing Sepak, from the direction of Loznica, a group of organised

24     volunteers tried to enter Republika Srpska.  These persons are mostly

25     members of the paramilitary formation called the Yellow Wasps or Zuco's

Page 39531

 1     men.  In agreement with the police of Yugoslavia, the mentioned persons

 2     were returned to the FRY by the Yugoslav police."

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Was this in accordance with the instructions and

 4     orders and the position of the MUP?

 5        A.   It's in accordance with the position that all of those who were

 6     not within the regular Army of Republika Srpska could not show up as

 7     armed formations in the territory of Republika Srpska.  They cannot be

 8     armed groups or formations.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be MFI'd?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will mark it for identification.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D3664, Your Honour.

13             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you for the time.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Macar.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Macar.

17     Thank you, on behalf of the Chamber, for your coming to The Hague to give

18     it.  Now you are free to go.  We will rise all together.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, too, for your

20     understanding regarding the length of these talks.

21             JUDGE KWON:  We will resume at five past 2.00.

22                           [The witness withdrew]

23                           --- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

24                           --- On resuming at 2.05 p.m.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson?

Page 39532

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I'd like to introduce to the

 2     Chamber Simeon Dukic from Macedonia who is working with our team and will

 3     be joining us this session.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  And, Mr. President, there is a preliminary matter

 6     the parties agreed should be raised because it concerns the first witness

 7     for -- currently for next week.  Mr. Nicholls has been dealing with

 8     Mr. Robinson on this matter.  Their level of understanding of the details

 9     surpasses mine so I -- with the Court's permission I'd ask Mr. Nicholls

10     to address the Court on this issue.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, good afternoon, Mr. Nicholls.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good afternoon, Your Honours.  I'll try to be

13     brief and not take too much time.  It concerns the testimony of

14     Mr. Beara.  His attorney, Mr. Ostojic, I ran into him on the balcony

15     today and spoke with him, and he informed me that Mr. Beara indeed will

16     testify, if called upon to do so, will not refuse, does not want to risk

17     any type of a contempt proceedings or anything of that nature.  However,

18     he was not -- Mr. Ostojic was not aware until just very recently about

19     Your Honours' decision relating to the Tolimir certification and he would

20     like to -- he intends and asked me to convey to the Chamber if I could

21     because he couldn't come into court today to convey to the Chamber that

22     he intends next week to file a motion asking to -- for similar relief, as

23     the Tolimir appeal.  And he is requesting -- they are requesting that the

24     summons or subpoena be stayed or postponed until a later date.  I'd

25     earlier spoken with Mr. Robinson and we had agreed, I'd thought, that if

Page 39533

 1     Mr. Beara was willing to testify and agreed to testify, as his attorneys

 2     had represented that he will, that he could be postponed to a later time.

 3     The final point is that my understanding is, and I just raise it, is that

 4     Mr. Ostojic is not available Monday, or is planning on flying home

 5     tomorrow and I think he's spoken to Mr. Robinson about that because he

 6     expected the testimony to be this week.  I won't get into that.  But for

 7     all those reasons, it seems to me to make sense not to schedule Mr. Beara

 8     for Monday morning since a motion will be coming and I just have to say

 9     practically I will be working this weekend but I would prefer not to

10     spend all weekend working up on a cross, as Mr. Robinson as agreed

11     before, if it's likely that it won't happen either because Mr. Beara's

12     counsel isn't here or because the Chamber, when it's raised, is minded to

13     lengthen the -- or stay the summons.  Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  It's noted.  Do we need an order from the Chamber

15     given that he was ordered to appear on a specific day?  If you could

16     assist us, Mr. Robinson?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  Your order actually specified

18     he was to appear on a date notified and we notified the date of today so

19     I would be asking that you order that he appear on Monday so that there

20     is a date certain and that his lawyer also appear with him on Monday.  If

21     you would like me to go into more details, I can.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Again, Your Honour, my only submission is that's

23     fine, but it shouldn't be Monday, doesn't make sense.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I was confused.  Why on Monday?  When his

25     counsel is not available?

Page 39534

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, his counsel is here right now and understood

 2     him to be -- was supposed to be starting his testimony today, but I don't

 3     think it would be realistic that it would have been completed today

 4     anyway, so I think it would be reasonable to expect -- for him to have

 5     expected to be here on Monday in any event.  But unfortunately,

 6     Mr. President, this is one of those situations where the communication

 7     with Mr. Beara's lawyer has been very difficult and one of the reasons we

 8     are in this situation is because we were never able to find out whether

 9     Mr. Beara would be testifying, would be meeting with us, what he wanted

10     to do.  He didn't file any appeal or any leave to appeal your subpoena

11     decision so I question whether he has the right to now appeal the

12     decision as General Tolimir did.  It's been my experience that the best

13     way to deal with this is to have the parties before you so that all of

14     these issues can be determined sooner rather than later.  And I'm

15     concerned that if we postpone this we will start -- and you do allow an

16     appeal, we will further delay the entire briefing schedule, et cetera,

17     and I think we are already close to a situation where I'm not sure the

18     Appeals Chamber will decide on appeals before we are ready to close our

19     case and may result in some delay.

20             So with all of those factors, with our experience with this

21     counsel and uncertainties over what exactly Mr. Beara is going to do and

22     the difficulties that further delay may cause, I think it's best to have

23     him here on Monday and resolve the issue at that time.

24             JUDGE KWON:  In any event, availability of counsel is an aspect

25     we cannot ignore in practical terms.

Page 39535

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct but this -- if the counsel is here

 2     and so I don't see any reason why he wouldn't be available on Monday if

 3     you ordered him to be here.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  I have to respond, if I may briefly, Your Honours.

 5     I'm not representing Mr. Ostojic or Mr. Beara, but from what I remember,

 6     Mr. Beara was scheduled to testify this morning, that is what his counsel

 7     expected, his counsel was here this morning, Mr. Robinson said we are

 8     going to delay this witness to next Monday because of scheduling

 9     difficulties, et cetera.  If his overriding goal and he thought it was so

10     important was to have everybody in the courtroom before your Chamber, he

11     could have done that this morning at 9.00 a.m.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  In the circumstances, the Chamber will not hear the

14     testimony of Mr. Beara.  His testimony will be postponed to a date on

15     which the parties could agree upon, and if the parties could agree upon

16     the date, please bring the matter back to the Chamber.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  If the parties "cannot" agree upon.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.  If I may be excused.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, yes.

21             Shall we bring in the next witness?

22                           [The witness entered court]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

24     please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

Page 39536

 1     speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

 2                           WITNESS:  VOJISLAV SESELJ

 3                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Seselj.  Please be seated and make

 5     yourself comfortable.

 6             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Seselj, although I believe

 7     you must be well aware of this, I must draw your attention to a certain

 8     rule that we have here at the Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E).  Under this

 9     rule, you may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the

10     Prosecution or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might

11     incriminate you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate"

12     means saying something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a

13     criminal offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you

14     might have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that

15     an answer might incriminate you, and as a consequence you refuse to

16     answer the question, I must let you know the Tribunal has the power to

17     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

18     would ensure that your testimony compelled in such circumstances would

19     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence

20     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

21             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Seselj?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. Kwon, you must know well that

23     nobody can force me to do anything, but I state that there is no matter

24     that can incriminate me and I'm willing to answer any questions asked by

25     Mr. Karadzic or the opposing side that calls itself the Prosecution.

Page 39537

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 2                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 3        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Dr. Seselj.

 4        A.   Good afternoon, Dr. Karadzic.

 5        Q.   Did you give a statement to the Defence team?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   I'm waiting for the interpretation.  I also kindly ask you to do

 8     so.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see 1D09105 in

10     e-court?

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Dr. Seselj, do you see that statement of yours on the screen?

13        A.   Yes, I do.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed the statement?

15        A.   Yes.  I read and signed the statement.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

17     the last page for him to identify his signature.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is my signature.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you said

21     to the Defence team?

22        A.   Yes.  I said much more to the Defence team but this is a resume

23     of sorts of what I said.

24        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to ask you the same questions today, would

25     your answers be essentially the same as in this statement?

Page 39538

 1        A.   Yes.  Exactly the same.  My answer could be a bit more lengthy

 2     but the essence certainly would not change.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this statement

 5     under Rule 92 ter.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, there are four associated exhibits.

 7     They are not on our 65 ter list because we hadn't interviewed Dr. Seselj

 8     at the time that list was submitted so we would ask permission that they

 9     be added.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Tieger?

11             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  As regards the -- as regards one of the associated

13     exhibits, that is 65 ter 13259, which is referred to in para 10, the

14     Chamber is of the view that it does not constitute an inseparable and

15     indispensable part of the statement in that the statement can be

16     understood without it, so we will not admit it.  But we will admit the

17     statement as well as three other associates exhibits.  Shall we assign

18     the numbers?

19             THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, Your Honour.  The 92 ter statement 1D9105

20     will be Exhibit D3665; 65 ter number 01221 will be Exhibit D3666;

21     65 ter number 13472 will be Exhibit D3667; and 65 ter number 115676 will

22     be Exhibit D3668.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read out a

Page 39539

 1     short summary of Dr. Seselj's statement in English.

 2              [In English] Dr. Vojislav Seselj is a native of Sarajevo.  He

 3     has been active in politics since his youth.  He was a leader of youth

 4     organisations during the communist regime.  In February 1991, Dr. Seselj

 5     was among the founders of the Serb Radical Party and has served as its

 6     president ever since.  From March 1998 until the end of 2000, Dr. Seselj

 7     was deputy prime minister of the government of the Republic of Serbia.

 8     He served continuously in the Serbian and federal parliaments from 1991

 9     until he came to The Hague in 2003.  For the past ten years, he has been

10     defending himself at this Tribunal and is still waiting for his

11     judgement.

12             The Serb Radical Party advocated a multi-party democratic system,

13     full observance of all civil rights and complete respect for the rights

14     of national minorities.  Their membership included a large number of

15     representatives from other ethnicities.  Their membership also included

16     people of all faiths, including Muslims, Catholics, Protestants and Jews.

17             In 1983 Dr. Seselj initiated a petition in support of the release

18     of Alija Izetbegovic when he had been imprisoned by the communist regime.

19     During the war in Bosnia, the Serb Radical Party never sent any

20     volunteers to the Bosnian Krajina.  He did not send anyone from the

21     Serb Radical Party in Serbia to Bijeljina.  Some local residents who were

22     members of the Serb Radical Party fought there but Dr. Seselj is not

23     aware of any crimes they committed.  About 100 volunteers of the

24     Serb Radical Party took part in the conflict in Zvornik as members of JNA

25     units, while the JNA was operating there.  Once the conflict was brought

Page 39540

 1     to an end, the JNA withdrew and the volunteers of the Serb Radical Party

 2     also withdrew.  They were in Zvornik for about 15 days.  These volunteers

 3     never engaged in guarding prisoners of war, nor in mistreating civilians.

 4     Dr. Seselj visited the Sarajevo area on a number of occasions during the

 5     war to provide moral support to those who were fighting there.  He met

 6     Vasilije Vidovic known also as Vaske.  Vaske's unit was in Cekrcici, a

 7     village outside Ilijas.  During the entire war, Vaske's unit prevented

 8     Muslim forces from advancing from Visoko towards Ilijas and Sarajevo.  No

 9     volunteers were sent from Belgrade to Vaske's unit, nor did Vaske ever

10     ask for it.  Dr. Seselj did not meet Vaske until 1994 and is not aware of

11     any evidence that he or his men committed any war crimes.

12             Branislav Gavrilovic, Brne, was a member of the Serb

13     Radical Party from Bosnia who first volunteered to fight in Slavonia.

14     When the war in Bosnia broke out he went to the area of Sarajevo because

15     he was a native of that area.  He first fought as part of the JNA, then

16     joined the Ilidza brigade of the VRS and took part in the fighting for

17     Igman Mount where he relied on a number of volunteers -- rallied a number

18     of volunteers.  Dr. Seselj received complaints from the Ilidza brigade

19     commander and the president of Ilidza municipality that Brne was

20     undisciplined, and he spoke to him about that in 1994 and again in 1995,

21     asking him to be more disciplined.  However, to the knowledge of

22     Dr. Seselj, Branislav Gavrilovic did not commit any war crimes against

23     Muslim or Croat civilians.  Slavo Aleksic is a native of Herzegovina who

24     joined the Serbian Radical Party in Grbavica.  As soon as the war started

25     he joined the VRS.  The Serb Radical Party did not send volunteers to the

Page 39541

 1     unit of Slavko Aleksic.  Dr. Seselj is not aware of any war crimes

 2     committed by Slavko Aleksic.

 3             Dr. Seselj met with Radovan Karadzic a few times each year during

 4     the war.  Radovan Karadzic was a political alley of Zoran Djindjic and

 5     Vojislav Kostunica.  Dr. Seselj supported Radovan Karadzic in some issues

 6     and opposed him on others such as the agreement that Karadzic made with

 7     Mate Boban in 1993.

 8             Dr. Seselj states that Radovan Karadzic did not have an

 9     antagonistic attitude towards Muslims or Croats.  The allegation that he

10     and Dr. Karadzic participated in a joint criminal enterprise to

11     permanently remove Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats inhabitants from

12     the Serbian territory is false.  Dr. Karadzic never favoured the

13     expulsion of the Muslims and Croats.  Dr. Seselj was frequently in

14     conflict -- in conflict with the other alleged members of this so-called

15     joint criminal enterprise such as Slobodan Milosevic, who had him

16     arrested several times, and Zeljko Raznatovic, aka Arkan, who he

17     frequently denounced.

18             And that is the summary of the statement of Dr. Seselj.  At that

19     moment I do not have any question for Dr. Seselj.

20             JUDGE MORRISON:  Dr. Seselj, you say in your statement that you

21     were expelled from the Communist Party, I think in 1981.  Am I right

22     about the date?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  I was expelled in

24     December 1981.

25             JUDGE MORRISON:  Was membership of the Communist Party automatic

Page 39542

 1     from birth or was it a party that you had to make a conscious decision to

 2     join?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It was not automatic, but the basic

 4     social status depended on that.  I wouldn't have been able to become

 5     assistant lecturer or university teacher if I hadn't been a party member,

 6     at least not in a faculty of social sciences.  But I joined that party of

 7     my own free will because at that time I was inclined toward a Marxist

 8     world view.  I gradually liberated myself from that world view by reading

 9     theoretic literature criticising Marxism, and later I became more and

10     more critical towards the Yugoslav communist system and the Yugoslav

11     communist dictator, Josip Broz Tito.

12             JUDGE MORRISON:  Thank for that clarification.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Seselj, as you have noted your evidence in chief

14     in this case has been admitted in writing, that is through your written

15     witness statement.  And now you will be cross-examined by the

16     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

17             Yes, Mr. Tieger?

18             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

20        Q.   Good afternoon, Dr. Seselj.  We have a limited amount of time

21     left in the day.  I'd like to commence with that portion of your

22     statement that addresses at least to some extent your relationship with

23     Dr. Karadzic, your connection was him.  And in that regard I'd like to

24     ask the Registrar to call up on e-court 65 ter 25195.  That's an

25     interview that was published on 24th of May, 1991, in On [phoen] and has

Page 39543

 1     been taken from your book, "Politics as a Conscientious Challenge."

 2             And if we could turn, please, to page 1 of the English and B/C/S

 3     page 58 of the book.  Now, in the portion in English, Dr. Seselj, we see

 4     your response to a question.  To put it in context, that is about while

 5     waiting for the local television show, "The Art of Living," you were

 6     staying in Pale with Radovan Karadzic, "What kind of news do you bring

 7     from Bosnia," and you state there, in part:

 8             "The Serbian Radical Party supports the policies of the SDS in

 9     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  Karadzic is the true leader of the Serbian people

10     there, and enjoys undivided trust."

11             And you indicate further you took part in the creating of a

12     Chetnik command in mount Romanija and had a consultative meeting with

13     Chetnik commanders from eastern Herzegovina and the Bosnian Krajina.  So

14     did that interview and your comments there accurately reflect at the time

15     your view of Dr. Karadzic and your support for his politics and policies?

16        A.   Yes, in essence, yes.  In 1990, when the first parliamentary

17     elections in the then Bosnia-Herzegovina were held, we didn't want to run

18     at these elections because we considered that the entire Serbian people

19     should concentrate around the Serbian Democratic Party, so we wanted to

20     avoid a situation in which the Serbian votes would be split.  Other

21     parties did not behave that way.  The Serbian Renewal Movement, the SPO,

22     ran in some constituencies, Sipa [phoen], Nevesinje, and some others, and

23     that's how the Serbian votes were split.  The Serbs would have had at

24     least one or two more seats in the assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina if that

25     hadn't happened.  We believe our political position was correct.  As for

Page 39544

 1     the other statements, they were given at least one year before the start

 2     of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and this is about political statements

 3     and the events that happened.  I had a meeting at Romanija attended by

 4     members of our party and the Serbian Chetnik Movement from Romanija,

 5     Bijeljina, Herzegovina, from Bosnian Krajina, there was Nikodin Cavic, a

 6     lawyer, who was president of our board for the -- chairman of our board

 7     for the Banja Luka region and he was sending volunteers of our party to

 8     the western Slavonian front in 1991.  So perhaps you could tell me when

 9     this interview was given.  There must be a date at the end of the

10     interview, a date when it was published and the newspapers because

11     I don't have them in front of me.

12        Q.   I thought I indicated that initially as May 4th, 1991, the date

13     of publication.  Sorry 20 -- excuse me, 24 May 1991.

14        A.   Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.  In -- I wanted to follow up on a couple of nuances related

16     to the support of the SRS for the SDS, but in the interests of time it

17     might be more useful to stick with a document that's on screen even if it

18     bears on other topics.  So if I can do that, I'd like to, in connection

19     with another matter raised in your statement, and that is paragraphs 16

20     and 26, in which you address to some extent your position regarding

21     national minorities.  I wanted to turn next to page 3 of the English in

22     this document and page 59 of the -- of your book in B/C/S.  And there we

23     see the following, the question is asked:

24             "Has it already come to it, as you had stated in yesterday's

25     press conference if executions of bare-handed Serbs," which by I take to

Page 39545

 1     mean unarmed Serbs, "begin taking place, the only remaining option is an

 2     eye-for-an-eye action."

 3             And the response you provide is:

 4             "Yes, it has.  We have already deployed several Chetnik groups in

 5     Zagreb and other towns across Croatia which are trained in sabotage and

 6     other terrorist activities.  If Serbian civilians start to be massacred

 7     the Chetniks will strike at Zagreb and other concentrations of Croats

 8     using their full strength.  You know when one retaliates revenge is

 9     blind.  There would be innocent victims but what can you do?  Let the

10     Croats think about that first.  We shall not strike first but if they

11     should strike, we are not even going to bother where our blows land.

12     Also, unless the army disarms the Ustashas immediately there will be a

13     lot of blood."

14             And did that correctly reflect your position in May of 1991,

15     regarding the actions that you intended for the Chetnik groups to take in

16     response to any attacks on Serbs?

17        A.   This position, not only reflects my opinion from 1991, but also

18     my opinion of today.  I even today think that somebody threatens the

19     Serbian people anywhere, the Serbs should reply in kind.  There must

20     be -- there must come an end of the destruction of the Serbian people and

21     the devastation of Serbian towns and villages.  But this was a bluff

22     about the existence of Chetnik groups in Zagreb.  We didn't have such

23     groups.  But I deliberately uttered such a threat publicly in order to

24     relieve the Croatian pressure on the Serbs because that was a time when

25     tens of thousands of Serbs were leaving Croatian towns because of

Page 39546

 1     Tudjman's regime, partly villages too but mostly towns.  That was in May

 2     1991.  The Serbs were fleeing Zagreb, Varazdin, Sisak and many other

 3     towns in masses.  They were being tortured, many Serbian civilians were

 4     killed, many were tortured, many were robbed and so on.

 5             And this is a threat, whether or not it had effect,

 6     I unfortunately didn't have enough power to implement that threat, and

 7     that was a time when the JNA still was not involved in the conflict.  It

 8     was a time when the Serbs were resisting, when there was a greater

 9     concentration of them, whichever way they could.  It was mostly in

10     villages.  In towns they couldn't.  They were preventing the Croatian

11     police from entering their places and they were defending themselves.

12             That's when the Serbian Radical Party sent many volunteers to the

13     Slavonian villages and they were helping in that defence.  That was a

14     time when we -- when our policy was that of active defence because the

15     JNA was standing apart.  They were neutral force which only intervened

16     from time to time to stop a conflict, mostly when the Croats were hit by

17     hard blows and then they would help them to get out of their encirclement

18     and so on.

19        Q.   Thank you.  I think I have time for one more excerpt from that

20     publication and that's found at page 6 of the English and page 61 through

21     62 of the book in B/C/S.

22             And here, the discussion moves on to the issue of Bosnia.  And

23     there, we see the following excerpt.  Question is asked:

24             "But what about Bosnia, let alone the others?"

25             Your response is:

Page 39547

 1             "Bosnia is undoubtedly Serbian and if any Muslim fundamentalists

 2     do not like that, they will have to pack their suitcases and leave."

 3             The interviewer asks:

 4             "But the majority of its population is Muslim."

 5             Your response is:

 6             "So what?  If they become loyal citizens of Serbia, they will

 7     enjoy full citizens' rights and human freedoms.  If not, they will have

 8     to start packing."

 9             The interviewer asks:

10             "Is Europe going to observe it calmly?"

11             And your response is:

12             "How could Europe prevent it?  Would Europe be willing to go to

13     war to prevent it?  I do not think so."

14             And was that an accurate reflection of your position regarding

15     Bosnia, essentially who was entitled or which group was entitled to

16     authority over its territory and what would be in your view an

17     appropriate response by those Muslims who objected to Serbian control of

18     Bosnia?

19        A.   As regards my threats to the Islamic fundamentalists, they are

20     still valid.  Consider them still valid anywhere.  Even ten years before

21     the war, I stood out as a fighter against Islamic fundamentalism because

22     it was gaining strength mostly in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, and as

23     regards Bosnia-Herzegovina and its ethnic composition, it is always been

24     exclusively inhabited by Serbs, over 90 per cent of Serbs.  There may be

25     a Czech here and there or a pole, maybe a Hungarian or Ukrainian who

Page 39548

 1     settled there at Austro-Hungarian times, but over 90 per cent of the

 2     inhabitants are Serbs:  Orthodox Serbs, Muslim Serbs and Catholic Serbs.

 3     And the policy of my party is a policy of the universal Serb ethnic

 4     unity.

 5             I made an appeal to the Serbs of Muslim faith which was issued in

 6     July 1990, and it was sent to the population of Sarajevo and some other

 7     places as early as March.  You can check that in documents.  I set out an

 8     appeal, an open letter to them, warning them of the threats arising from

 9     the political situation and appealing to them to avoid the tragic events

10     from the Second World War when they were instrumentalised by the Croats.

11     Of course, not all Muslims.

12             It was my goal, therefore, to preserve the Serbian ethnic being,

13     the -- because the Orthodox Serbs, Catholic Serbs and Muslim Serbs are

14     one people.  The Hague Tribunal insisted on the existence of a Bosnian

15     language, but these are vain efforts.  There is no such thing as the

16     Bosnian language.  The Croats thought up their own language 150 years

17     ago.  The original Croatian language was Cakavian, and then they accepted

18     a slow Slovenian variant, a Slovenian dialect, Kajkavian -- am I speaking

19     too fast?  I'll finish fast, but it's important for me to explain so that

20     you may know, sir.

21             And up until 1850, the Croats didn't have their standard

22     language.  Then they adopted the Serbian language as their standard

23     language, so that in that way, they could assimilate a large group of

24     Catholic Serbs because the Croatian nation is an artificial nation under

25     the direct patronage of the Catholic church.  I wrote a book that

Page 39549

 1     comprises 1.000 pages and which aroused much attention in scientific

 2     circles all over the world.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I think you have answered the question.  We will

 4     adjourn for today and the week, and resume on Monday morning at 9.00.

 5     Hearing is adjourned.

 6                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.49 p.m.,

 7                           to be reconvened on Monday, the 10th day of June,

 8                           2013, at 9.00 a.m.