Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 41116

 1                           Wednesday, 10 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May I

 9     introduce Ms. Emma Vasta-Kuby, who has been with my team for six weeks.

10     She's a final-year student at Wesleyan University dealing with

11     political science and international relations.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, if I may --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, before we begin.  I just on re-reading

17     the transcript last night I would like to withdraw my objection to having

18     1D9291 marked for identification.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  It's noted.

20             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

21                           WITNESS:  RADOMIR PASIC [Resumed]

22                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

24                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:  [Continued]

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pasic, following up on that same subject in

Page 41117

 1     answering questions during the cross-examination, you said -- you said

 2     that chaos started even before the war.  I'm not going to deal with 1991.

 3     I would like to ask you about the events that happened on the eve of the

 4     war.  What did you mean when you said that was there shooting.  What did

 5     you have in mind when you said that chaos reigned supreme even before the

 6     war?

 7        A.   First of all, I meant the events which happened in the

 8     neighbouring State of Croatia, those events that happened before the war

 9     in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  We are a municipality on the border with

10     Croatia.  We experienced civilian casualties as well in the territory of

11     Kostunica which is what I emphasised.  This is what I meant when I said

12     there were disturbances.  The fact is that from that area in one way or

13     another illegally people crossed the border, and they were able to bring

14     in weapons.  To a large extent that aggravated the situation, and it was

15     much more difficult to establish law and order and the functioning of

16     local authorities.

17        Q.   What was the position of the Serbian community in Bosanski Novo

18     with regard to the referendum and was the referendum of the Muslim and

19     Croatian part of Bosnia peaceful since you were a majority Serbian

20     municipality and --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm just wondering how this is relevant to the

23     cross-examination.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is a critical moment, and

Page 41118

 1     Mr. Pasic was answering the Prosecutor's questions and he painted the

 2     situation in Bosanski Novi.  The referendum was a very critical moment so

 3     I would like Mr. Pasic to tell us how the authorities managed to maintain

 4     peace longer than other places in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  The question was how this line of questioning arises

 6     out of the cross-examination of Ms. Sutherland.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Because Mr. Pasic's words were

 8     doubted when he said that the authorities had major problems in managing

 9     the crisis, so I wanted the Trial Chamber to see what was happening on

10     the eve of the war, even in Sarajevo, at the end of February.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I think -- I can -- I think you can fairly move on

12     to another topic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Do you want to still add to

15     anything?

16             MR. TIEGER:  Just as a slight reminder and admonition.  I also

17     looked up the representation that Dr. Karadzic made about what the

18     witness ostensibly said, and it's not reflected in yesterday's

19     transcript.  Therefore, it represents Dr. Karadzic attempting to feed the

20     witness information that he wants him to affirm, and that was another

21     aspect of the need to be addressed.  So I didn't think the Court or

22     anyone else had an opportunity to actually peruse the transcript, and

23     having done so that's the result.  Dr. Karadzic who has been reminded

24     about this repeatedly needs to refrain from leading commentary in his --

25     in the questions he poses.

Page 41119

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Shall we continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  I'm sure that the

 3     following question will arise from the Prosecutor's questions.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Mr. Pasic, how did the bodies of authorities, primarily police,

 6     treat perpetrators of crime?  Did Muslims return?  Were there any

 7     criminal activities by the Serbs and by the Muslims, and how did the

 8     police treat those?

 9        A.   I have to point out that during those difficult times there were

10     certain crimes including stealing or killings.  The public security

11     station worked within its purview as much as it could.  Let me give you

12     some examples, and we've already talked about that.  The police, which

13     was under the control of the Serbian authorities, did not make a

14     distinction between a criminal of Serbian ethnicity or of other

15     ethnicities.  For example, a killing, a murder took place at the

16     beginning of June.  A Muslim was killed, and the public security station

17     arrested the perpetrator within the next three days.  He was a Serb.

18     This means that our organs worked as much as they could.  The

19     perpetrators were processed.  Don't ask me, because I don't know to what

20     sentence was given to that person, but he was a Serb, and as a Serb he

21     was convicted and sentenced because of the aggravated murder that he

22     committed.  He killed a Muslim, and that Serbian -- Serb went on trial,

23     and he was convicted.

24             There were also examples when Muslim property was stolen by Serb

25     perpetrators.  Court proceedings were instituted against them.  Those

Page 41120

 1     people were convicted and sentenced for stealing property.  There is also

 2     an example where a person of Serb ethnicity -- or, rather, there were

 3     people of Serb ethnicity in paramilitary formations.  They put up

 4     resistance at a check-point which was manned by the policemen from the

 5     SJB.  They tried to carry out some illegal activities.  The police

 6     reacted.  They had to use weapons, and that Serb, that one Serb who was a

 7     member of a paramilitary unit was killed.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now look at 1D4828.  Does

 9     this mean that there's no translation?  I was hoping that there would be

10     translation.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  There is no translation, Mr. Karadzic.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I apologise.

13        Q.   In that case could you please tell us who issued this document,

14     and what did the police in Bosanski Novi do in that respect?

15        A.   I did not understand you.

16        Q.   Who issued the document?

17        A.   Can it be zoomed in, please?  CSB sector SMB Banja Luka,

18     Operative Boro Bukva.  This could have been somebody from the police.  I

19     don't know from which department.

20        Q.   National security.

21        A.   I suppose that it was the National Security Service.  This person

22     Boro Bukva was its employee.  I believe that he's the one who drafted

23     this document.  This person does hail from the municipality of

24     Bosanski Grad, Bosanski Novi, if there is nobody else under that same

25     name.

Page 41121

 1        Q.   Could you tell us about the contents of this document?  Did the

 2     disarming start?  What about criminal procedure?  I'm particularly

 3     interested in the penultimate paragraph to see who those people were who

 4     threatened.  Can the page be scrolled up a little.  There was a group of

 5     five people who were processed.  Were they Serbs?

 6        A.   Let me just take a moment and find them.  Where is it?

 7        Q.   Penultimate.

 8        A.   Participated --

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, without a transcript I'm strapped

10     as to making any objections as to this line of questioning.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Would you ask the witness to read out the paragraph

12     in question.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   Mr. Pasic, could you please slowly read.

15        A.   What is underlined in red?

16        Q.   First the bigger paragraph and then the smaller or the shorter

17     paragraph.  Can you do it aloud?

18        A.   "Performed an interview with people who were --"

19             THE INTERPRETER:  This is impossible to translate.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Pasic, could you read out again, this time very

21     slowly.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "He carried out interviews with

23     people who were arrested and who belonged to sabotage terrorist groups

24     (the first group 8 armed persons of Muslim ethnicity which had been set

25     up in the territory of Prijedor-Puharska, was moving across" -- I believe

Page 41122

 1     it says -- that it says "Kureva" here "and the territory of Ljubija.  It

 2     was spotted and --"

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this is incidents in Prijedor if

 4     we're talking about Ljubija.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] However, the entire chapter is

 7     about Bosanski Novi.  Those are two neighbouring municipalities.  So that

 8     village is possibly closer to --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Ljubija borders on one part

10     of Novi Grad municipality.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   And it says here that the group was neutralised in the

13     territory --

14        A.   Can you read the last --

15             JUDGE KWON:  It's impossible to follow if you overlap each other.

16     I don't know why this is relevant.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, your Excellency, if he had

18     written -- read the whole sentence it would have been clear.  The group

19     was set up in the area of Bosanski Novi.  It is originally from Ljubija,

20     but it was neutralised in Bosanski Novi.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we hear the paragraph in its entirety first.

22     Could you read from where you stopped.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "... was neutralised in the area of

24     Bosanski Novi.  The purpose was to tie up with the forces from

25     Cazin Krajina.  The second group, 18 armed individuals, was set up in the

Page 41123

 1     area of Bosanski Novi where it was neutralised.  Fifteen individuals were

 2     arrested, and two of their associates.  The purpose of the movement of

 3     the said group was to cross over to the territory of the Cazin Krajina."

 4             The other paragraph that is encircled:

 5             "He participated along with SJB from Bos Novi in the processing

 6     of five individual group from Bosanski Novi who by committing acts,

 7     endangering general public and thereby threatened the physical and

 8     property security of citizens."

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.

10             Now, was your question, Mr. Karadzic?

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Mr. Pasic, can you tell us with respect to these two paragraphs,

13     who were the perpetrators in the first one and who in the one beneath?

14        A.   If I understood it correctly, we are talking here about two

15     groups that were crossing the territory of Bosanski Novi.  The first

16     group was made up of Muslims who were coming from the direction of

17     Prijedor via Novi towards the Cazin Krajina.  The second group was made

18     up of Muslims from Bosanski Novi or Novi Grad municipality who were also

19     apprehended in the area with the same objective in mind, which was to

20     establish contact with the Muslims of the Cazin Krajina.

21             In this bottom paragraph, as I understand it, the operative in

22     question processed a group of five individuals from Bosanski Novi.  In

23     view of the paragraph above, it only makes sense that the five

24     individuals were also Muslims but from the other group mentioned above,

25     that was made up of 18 individuals.

Page 41124

 1        Q.   Thank you.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, again I question the relevance of

 3     this information relating to the cross-examination of Mr. Pasic

 4     yesterday.  The document's dated the 13th of October, 1992, clearly

 5     months and months after the incidents that we were discussing yesterday.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I precisely selected this

 8     document which demonstrates that there was no peace in Novi Grad or

 9     Bosanski Novi municipality for months before the events that were

10     described.  There had been permanent danger lurking there, and we can see

11     that even Serbs were being apprehended.  There were groups who were

12     passing across the territory whose aspiration was to create chaos and

13     fighting.

14             On page 3 --

15             JUDGE KWON:  You are not giving evidence.  Ms. Sutherland

16     indicated this is related to events months after what she discussed

17     yesterday.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is one and the same event, a

19     prolonged event that the essence -- you can see that on page 3.  There is

20     a paragraph which describes what they encountered, and we can see whether

21     the authorities did the best they could.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see how it is relevant.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please see the last page --

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  He is just asking

25     Mr. Pasic to read the document.  He is not actually asking him any

Page 41125

 1     questions to which [overlapping speakers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I think he laid some foundational questions, so

 3     let's see whether it's related to his question.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  Sorry, Your Honour.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Can you please read this paragraph, and then I'm going to ask you

 8     a question, the one marked red.

 9        A.   "According to the available intelligence, a number of Muslim

10     emigres (from Bosanski Novi) is carrying out hostile actions,

11     particularly in the area of the Republic of Croatia and are preparing

12     themselves for sabotage and terrorist activities in the area of

13     Republika Srpska."

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us how long did the war last in your

15     municipality, bearing in mind what you said about 1991?  Were the

16     authorities in any way in position to face a normal situation?

17        A.   As far as Novi Grad or Bosanski Novi municipality, one can say

18     that the war started sometime in June of 1991 and that it ended only

19     after the signing of the Dayton Accords in 1995.  So this entire period

20     was marked by a difficult situation.  Of course, there were on and off

21     rises and decreases of danger, but throughout the period there was an

22     imminent threat of war in Novi Grad, Bosanski Novi municipality.

23        Q.   Mr. Pasic, the people mentioned in this paragraph who were from

24     Bosanski Novi and who were let go to Croatia, how did they return, in

25     what capacity?

Page 41126

 1        A.   Well, they mainly returned across combat lines.  They were all

 2     armed and wearing uniforms.  They were coming in specific military

 3     formation or units.  There were even some details recorded to the effect

 4     that there was fierce fighting in the area of Suva Medja, which is the

 5     area dividing the municipality of Novi Grad and Bosanska Krupa facing

 6     Cazim Gujim [phoen].  This is the area where these people were already

 7     dressed in uniforms.  They were members of the military.  They were under

 8     the leadership of Alija Izetbegovic.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Were amongst them --

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat the question

11     from the --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat your question.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   This is concerning the citizens of Bosanski Novi.  Were amongst

15     them those who you allowed to go to Banja Luka -- to Croatia instead of

16     Banja Luka?

17        A.   I will give you a specific example:  The gentleman who was

18     conducting negotiations on the bridge, and he was a member of the Muslim

19     delegation named Nedim Muftic - we mentioned him yesterday - when he was

20     talking to the commissioner for refugees, according to what I know, was

21     killed as a soldier of the BH Army of Alija Izetbegovic precisely in the

22     battle-field that I mentioned, and that is the one between Bosanska Krupa

23     and Novi Grad.  In other words, he was killed as a soldier, whereas he

24     had left as a civilian.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Were amongst them individuals who were held at the

Page 41127

 1     Mlakve stadium?  I'm talking about able-bodied men.

 2        A.   Yes.  Most of them were persons fit for military service.  The

 3     great majority of them left as civilians, but once they reached the

 4     territory of Croatia, they were then sent back to Central Bosnia where

 5     they were trained to fight, and they were mobilised and eventually took

 6     part as members of the BH Army.  I cannot say that this pertains to all

 7     of them, but we have information that there were many of them among those

 8     ranks.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted and MFI'd.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Your Honour, if I can handle that because I had a

12     chance while Ms. Sutherland was actually listening to the evidence to

13     scroll back and look at what the witness said about the document.  He was

14     asked:  Can you tell us anything about the contents.  He was then

15     directed to a particular paragraph, and then it's very clear from the

16     record that he was only parsing out the -- what he could glean from what

17     he had just read from the document.  If I understood it correctly, we're

18     talking here about, and then he compared one paragraph to another.  He

19     had no independent information to provide about this document, no

20     contextualisation.  So his evidence stands on its on own but it doesn't

21     require the document in any way to assist it, and I don't think directing

22     a witness to a document and asking him to read it and explain what it is

23     he thinks he's reading has been a basis for admission in our courtroom

24     thus far.

25             JUDGE KWON:  The foundational question Mr. Karadzic put to the

Page 41128

 1     witness before he put this document to the witness was this:

 2             "How did the bodies of authorities, primarily police, treat

 3     perpetrators of crime?  Did Muslims return?  Were there any criminal

 4     activities by the Serbs and by the Muslims, and how did the police treat

 5     those?"

 6             And the document had nothing to do with those questions, and I'm

 7     not quite sure how this is relevant to or arose out of the

 8     cross-examination of Ms. Sutherland.  Can you help us, Mr. Robinson or

 9     Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will gladly do so.  The persons

11     who returned were originally allowed to go to Croatia, not to Banja Luka

12     as had been offered by the authorities.  The authorities offered them to

13     go to the deep part of the Serbian territory.  Instead, they went to

14     Croatia, and they returned as soldiers.  Those were not simply civilians.

15     Those were civilians fit for military service.  The people who did not

16     want to go to Banja Luka, they wanted to go to Croatia, were held at the

17     Mlakve stadium.  We heard that the representative who -- of the UNHCR who

18     talked alone with them, they told him that they wanted to go to Croatia

19     instead of Banja Luka.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber -- the Chamber does not consider this

22     document relevant.  We'll not admit this.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Then I'm going to show only one

24     document.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 41129

 1        Q.   A minute ago you said that the Serb perpetrators of crimes

 2     committed against Muslims was also arrested and prosecuted.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see one document on the

 4     ELMO.  I have the translation, but I misplaced it.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have a 65 ter number, Mr. Karadzic?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We'll find it in a minute.  I was

 7     looking in the wrong place.  ERN number is 03085987.  That's 1D9166, but

 8     it's not in e-court since I hadn't anticipated that we would need it.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Are you familiar with this name, and are you familiar with the

11     names of the victims below?  Do you remember this incident?

12        A.   Yes, I can see the names.  I know some of them.  I know the name

13     of this Serb called Milanko Vujanovic.  I'm not personally acquainted

14     with the Muslim victims who were listed below.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Well, on what basis?  What witness told us is the

18     name of the -- a certain Vujanovic and the fact that there are some

19     Muslim victims.  What is it about, and how is it relevant, Mr. Karadzic?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said in

21     cross-examination that the authorities treated the perpetrators equally

22     regardless of their ethnicity.  In this case, the perpetrator is a Serb,

23     and the victims are Muslims.  And there was no discrimination against --

24             JUDGE KWON:  You need to lead the witness -- ask the question

25     what crime you are talking about at least.  We heard nothing about that.

Page 41130

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Pasic, a while ago, as well as yesterday, you said that the

 3     authorities did not discriminate against the perpetrators on ethnic

 4     basis.  Can you tell us the ethnicity of the perpetrator and that of the

 5     victims?

 6        A.   Yes.  Everything that was discovered through gathering

 7     intelligence that confirmed that a crime was committed, the public

 8     security station and the judiciary treated such incidents regardless of

 9     the fact of who the perpetrators were.

10             In this particular instance that I'm looking at involves

11     Milenko Vujanovic, who was a Serb, and I'm familiar with that name.  I

12     know that he was being tried, that he was convicted for the crime

13     committed against the Muslim population.

14             JUDGE KWON:  What crime?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, it was homicide.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Ms. Sutherland, any objection to the

17     admission of this document?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  To this criminal report, no, Your Honour.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Well' receive it.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3851, Your Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Excellencies, I have no

22     further questions.

23             Thank you, Mr. Pasic.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Mr. President.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I wish to further re-examine the

Page 41131

 1     witness, please, on one point.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  About what, Ms. Sutherland?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's in relation to the answer he gave on

 4     page 4, lines 1 to 19.  It's about this very issue of people being

 5     convicted.  Mr. Karadzic asked the witness about a certain incident, and

 6     I want to put something to the witness about that and show him a

 7     document, because otherwise you have a skewed view of the reality of the

 8     situation.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.  Please proceed.

10                           Further cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

11        Q.   Mr. Pasic, you remember -- you remember a moment ago you'd

12     pointed out an example of a killing, a murder that took place at the

13     beginning of June, a Muslim was killed.  Are you referring to

14     Husein Hotic?  And the perpetrators being Goran Pekic and Zoran Djukic,

15     and Mladen Djukic and Goran Djukic?  Is that the incident that you were

16     talking about?

17        A.   Yes, I'm aware of that.

18        Q.   And you said they were convicted and sentenced because of the

19     aggravated murder that -- that was committed?  They went on trial and

20     they were convicted.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can have 65 ter 25357, please.

22        Q.   Mr. Pasic, we can see when the document comes on the screen that

23     this -- the trial didn't occur until 2007, and they were actually

24     convicted at that point.  So there was nothing done by the Bosanski Novi

25     municipality judiciary throughout the conflict in relation to this person

Page 41132

 1     being tried and sentenced and convicted and sentenced; isn't that right?

 2        A.   No, that's not right.  It is simply unbelievable that you as a

 3     member of the legal profession should not distinguish between the various

 4     jurisdictions.  You should not know that there are prosecution offices

 5     and courts, that there should be law enforcement agencies, prosecutors

 6     offices and courts as three different structures.  I can tell you with

 7     full responsibility that the public security station responded in a

 8     timely manner, apprehended the perpetrators, and that was the remit

 9     within which they were able to act.

10             It's not fair you asking me about when the conviction was

11     rendered since our judiciary bodies are independent from the legislative

12     and executive branches.  Now what the reasons were, what were the

13     elements why a certain criminal proceeding went on for two, four, or six

14     years, at any rate, proceedings were carried out, sentences were

15     rendered, which means that justice was meted out to the perpetrators of

16     the crime.

17        Q.   Mr. Pass, the way you answered this question was that it was --

18     it was processed immediately.  I am simply showing you a document that

19     shows that this matter was not dealt with until 15 years after the event.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Was that question for the witness, your last

22     comment?

23             Let me put -- let me put to the witness.

24             Mr. Pasic, in your answer you said this:

25             "I can tell you with full responsibility that the public security

Page 41133

 1     station responded in a timely manner, apprehended the perpetrators ..."

 2             Do you know when these perpetrators were apprehended?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't be precise and certain, but

 4     I can state with full responsibility - I think that you have it in

 5     writing somewhere - that the perpetrators of this crime were apprehended

 6     five days after the commission of the crime.  In my view, in view of the

 7     fact that there was a war on, this was done within record-breaking time,

 8     since in peacetime it can take months and even years to detect the

 9     perpetrators and locate them.  That's why I said that this was done

10     within record time, within five days.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I was taking issue as to when the

14     perpetrators were -- he said the perpetrators were processed and they

15     were convicted and sentenced, and that was what I was taking issue at,

16     was when that was occurring.

17             JUDGE KWON:  So you are going to ask further questions or you

18     stopped, you concluded?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   So my question would be, Mr. Pasic, we can see from the document

21     that we have in front of us that these people were not processed, were

22     not tried, within a reasonable amount of time and certainly not during

23     the war.  That's correct, isn't it?

24        A.   I can't confirm your hypothesis, because I didn't work as part of

25     the justice administration with the judiciary or the prosecutors'

Page 41134

 1     offices.  What the arguments were, what the reasoning was is a question

 2     that should be directed to the judiciary involved.  It obviously is not

 3     something that you would agree with, but I was not able to exert any

 4     influence of this to have an influence over the timing or the substance

 5     of this judgement.  So the question that you're putting to me is not

 6     appropriately addressed to me.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender the document.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             Mr. Robinson.

10             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6441, Your Honours.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, Excellencies?  When

15     Ms. Sutherland finishes, I will need a moment.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   And just one other quick matter, Mr. Pasic.  On page 11 at

18     line 12, you mentioned Nedim Muftic.  You were, in fact, referring to

19     Nedim Puric, the gentleman's evidence that I read out yesterday.  That's

20     correct, isn't it?

21        A.   No, that's not correct.  When I spoke about the negotiations

22     taking place at the bridge over the Una River, I said that there were

23     representatives of the Muslim ethnicity, and I will repeat their names:

24     Emin Puric, Amir Delic, Mirsad Brkic, Nedim Muftic.  There were four

25     individuals.

Page 41135

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  Thank you.

 2             I have no further questions, Your Honour.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  At the outset of today's hearing you said you

 4     withdrew the objection about 1D9291.  Could you --

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Microphone not activated] I thought that --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I thought that the witness had simply read the

 8     document, but he commented in a couple of sentences after -- after

 9     reading the beginning of the document.

10             JUDGE KWON:  But, actually, I had difficulty locating that

11     document.  Could you tell us the 1D exhibit number or 65 ter number

12     again?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  1D9291.

14             JUDGE KWON:  We have no track of it.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  It's on line 25, page 41112 of yesterday's

16     transcript.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20                           Further re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Pasic, can you tell us this sixth or seventh

22     line, convicted previously in 1992 by a conviction rendered by the

23     Banja Luka High Court.  Do you see that?  And then it says a suspended

24     sentence of two years, et cetera.  So was it the case that there was a

25     trial conducted in 1992?

Page 41136

 1        A.   I can tell you with certainty that I didn't read any judgements.

 2     Besides, this isn't made readily available to all the members of the

 3     public but only to those who were parties to the proceeding.  So I cannot

 4     give my comment on any details of any judgement; that would not be

 5     reliable.  However, I do find the names of these individuals familiar,

 6     and I know that they were convicted during the war for certain criminal

 7     offences.  It would be highly inappropriate of me to say now what the

 8     sentences rendered were and precisely for which criminal offences, but

 9     these can easily be found at the Banja Luka District Court and Novi Grad

10     District Court.  Therefore, in the beginning, during the war, and after

11     the war, all the -- all the criminal offence proceedings that were

12     conducted are archived and can be found in these archives.  Many Serbs,

13     not just these ones, were tried for criminal offences regardless of the

14     criminal offence involved and regardless of the ethnicities involved.

15        Q.   Can you tell us why was this tried before the Banja Luka court

16     rather than the Novi Sad court in the first instance, or the Novi Grad

17     court?

18        A.   Well, you have to know that it will depend on the subject matter

19     jurisdiction.  Novi Grad comes under Banja Luka, and Banja Luka will --

20     the Banja Luka court will have the subject matter jurisdiction for what

21     is committed in Novi Grad.  All the criminal offences incurring sentences

22     that -- exceeding ten years will be addressed at the Banja Luka

23     District Court, whereas those incurring sentences fewer than ten years

24     will be treated by the Banja Luka first instance court.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 41137

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have document 2016 and the

 2     Serbian page 5.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, do you agree that the -- that these

 4     previous convictions related to the same crime?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour, I don't.  It's a different

 6     court, and --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Or maybe just previous conviction on -- for other

 8     matters.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Do you agree, Mr. Karadzic, with the observation of

11     Ms. Sutherland?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I don't know what K14

13     is.  It's a case file obviously.  I don't know what he was tried for, but

14     we can see that he was tried and we'll see when he was prosecuted by the

15     Banja Luka prosecutor's office.  So if we look at page 5, we will see

16     when the case was processed.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, sorry --

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 5.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  -- even under non bis in idem he wouldn't be

20     convicted for the same crime, so -- and it's a different court.  It --

21     its -- it's arguably a different matter.

22             JUDGE KWON:  I was asking whether it was a trial in absentia and

23     now a trial with the accused in custody.  Let us see page 5.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 5 in Serbian and then we'll be

25     able to find what the page -- the corresponding page in English is.

Page 41138

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   The last paragraph.  Mr. Pasic, can you happen us with this?  It

 3     reads:

 4             "The prosecutor's office has adduced before the court evidence in

 5     the form of the witness statement," et cetera.

 6             Page 4 in English if we can have it?

 7        A.   Well, let me say first that we do have the non bis in idem

 8     principle in our jurisdiction.  However, we also have ordinary and

 9     extraordinary legal remedies.  With ordinary legal remedies there can be

10     a retrial in case that new evidence emerges that was not previously known

11     when initially the trial was conducted.  So that is with the

12     extraordinary legal remedies.  So it can be the case that even where a

13     case was tried should new details, new facts, arguments, or evidence

14     emerge there can be a retrial.

15             I'm looking at this paragraph.  It says 5 July 1992.  If that's

16     what you're referring to as well, I mean the last paragraph.

17        Q.   Yes.  Can you read out two sentences.

18        A.   Yes.  Can you just zoom in a bit:

19             "The prosecutor's office has adduced before the court evidence in

20     the form of witness statement --"  I can't make it out.  Is it Starcevic,

21     the family name?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can it be zoomed in, please.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, please.

24             "The prosecutor's office has adduced before the Court evidence in

25     the form of witness statement given by Stevo Starcevic before an

Page 41139

 1     investigating judge on 5 July 1992 about this particular incident in case

 2     Ki 33/92 with which the court in Bosanski Novi is seized.  Furthermore,

 3     the prosecutor's office has provided official notes of interviews of

 4     these witnesses."

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you just read out where it says that on 3 July 1992 a

 7     passenger car was seized from the accused Goran Petic.  Can you comment

 8     on this?

 9        A.   Well, we see here that this was the Zastava 101 vehicle complete

10     with the vehicle licence at which point a receipt or certificate was

11     drawn up where the vehicle was returned to owner of Emir Veletanlic who

12     is a Muslim and the other person is a Serb.

13        Q.   Can we see when --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the accused please repeat his question.  It

15     is very difficult to work like this.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Pasic.  The interpreters were not able to hear

17     your question, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will repeat.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please tell us when was it that Husein Hotic was

21     declared dead?  He was the victim of this criminal event.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter apologises.  We cannot

23     interpret if we do not have the translation on the screen.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters find it very difficult to follow

25     without the relevant passage before them, but it's up to you how to spend

Page 41140

 1     your time, but, Mr. Karadzic, this is admitted, and everything is in

 2     evidence.  I don't see the point of going through with the witness about

 3     this point.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I've achieved what I

 5     wanted to achieve.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Pasic, I would like know whether the authorities in

 8     Bosanski Novi accomplished everything and did the courts --

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   -- and the police allow for the state of lawlessness to reign?

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, how does that further

14     re-examination arise out of my cross-examination on that one particular

15     document?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Did you not ask the witness that it was until -- it

17     was not until 2007 that it was processed?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No.  I said in relation to the -- it going to

19     trial it wasn't processed until 2007.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Now, this question was about authorities in

21     Bosanski Novi, which may include the judiciary or -- et cetera.

22             Mr. Robinson, could you help us.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, I'm torn between thinking what a colossal

24     waste of time some of this is and the actual question of whether it

25     arises.  I think that it does arise out of the redirect -- or

Page 41141

 1     re-cross-examination, because the allegation was made that they did

 2     nothing during this period, and that's why it wasn't until 2007 that this

 3     was brought.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I'm really wondering whether we should spend time on

 5     this.  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, because this implicates something we do over

 7     and over again, the direct examination, cross-examination, redirect

 8     examination, re-cross-examination is in virtually every courtroom a very

 9     narrowing process, and the question raised was about a particular matter

10     raised by Dr. Karadzic in respect of a particular document which is the

11     reason why you permitted the re-cross.  It's not because that very, very

12     narrow issue obviously implicates in some manner the broader issues of

13     the case, does not make it a matter of opening the door to that very

14     broad issue.  We were narrowing this thing down to the one matter about

15     the document.  Again, like Mr. Robinson, I'm not concerned about this

16     particular issue.  If Dr. Karadzic chooses to waste more time in -- as he

17     wishes, I guess that's his prerogative, but I think we do need to follow

18     the normal practice in respect of examinations, and that is the focus is

19     on a particular matter.  The fact that that particular matter implicates

20     the broader issues of the case doesn't mean now we can now go back to

21     square one.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  No, Mr. --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can I respond?

24             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber agrees with Mr. Tieger.  Unless you have

25     anything further, we'll conclude the evidence of this witness.

Page 41142

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Unless my colleagues have a question for

 3     you, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Pasic.  I thank you for coming to

 4     The Hague to give it.  Now you're free to go.

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I take it the next witness is ready.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  The next witness is

 9     Zvonko Bajagic, and before he is brought in, if we could just go to

10     private session for one moment while we deal with an exhibit from another

11     witness.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Is it Bajagic or Bajajic.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Bajagic.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could the Chamber move into private session briefly.

15                           [Private session]

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 41143

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8                           [Open session]

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I'm wondering whether we need a hearing tomorrow at

11     all.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  I don't think we will if we are efficient today.

13             JUDGE KWON:  We'll see.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness -- headphones, please.  Yes.

16     Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning to you.  May Godspeed

18     be with you.  I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole

19     truth, and nothing but the truth.

20                           WITNESS:  ZVONKO BAJAGIC

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, Mr. Bajagic.  Please be seated and

23     make yourself comfortable.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

25             The President of the Trial Chamber, may I ask you to allow me to

Page 41144

 1     say just one sentence that you never heard or that you will never hear in

 2     your whole life, and I'm sure that it will find a place in your heart.

 3     I've always uttered that one sentence about those important days and

 4     those important events.  It's going to be a very brief sentence.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic will ask you questions if necessary and

 6     if they are relevant.  I'm not sure what you have in mind, but let us

 7     proceed.

 8             I was told that you were not feeling well yesterday, but during

 9     the course of today's testimony if you do not feel well, please don't

10     hesitate to let us know, Mr. Bajagic.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm as good as new now.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

13             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

14                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Bajagic.

16        A.   May God help you and may you have all the good luck in the world.

17        Q.   Could you please make a pause after my question.  I will make a

18     pause after your answer.  And could you please speak slowly and use the

19     fewest possible number of words in order to work efficiently today.

20             Mr. Bajagic, did you provide a statement to my Defence team?

21        A.   Yes, I did, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up 1D090151 in

24     e-court.  No, no.  1D09151.  That's the correct number.  There is no

25     extra zero in that number.  Thank you.

Page 41145

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Please look at the screen, look at the left-hand side of the

 3     screen, Mr. Bajagic.  Is this the statement that you provided?

 4        A.   On the left-hand side?  There are two screens here.

 5        Q.   Look on the left.  It will be the Serbian version.

 6        A.   No.  There is no such thing.  There is just the English version.

 7        Q.   On my screen it's on the left.

 8        A.   Oh, you mean this screen.  I've told you I had two screens.

 9        Q.   Is this your statement?

10        A.   Yes, it is, Mr. President.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read the statement, and did you sign it?

12        A.   Yes, I did, Mr. President.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown the last

15     page to identify the signature on it.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Is this your signature?

18        A.   Yes, it is, Mr. President.  This is my signature.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement accurately reflect what you stated

20     before the Defence team?

21        A.   Yes.  It's a true and accurate reflection of what I stated.

22        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

23     would your answers be the same in essence?

24        A.   They would be, Mr. President.  They would be the same, and there

25     would be some additional clarifications, because the -- we have shortened

Page 41146

 1     the whole thing, and there are so many other important things to be said.

 2        Q.   Thank you.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can be statement be admitted,

 4     please.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Welcome back, Mr. Mitchell.  Any objections?

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.  No objection.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D3853, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Now I'm going to read a

11     short summary of Mr. Zvonko Bajagic's statement in English.

12             [In English] Zvonko Bajagic was a private entrepreneur before the

13     war.  Before the war he was president of the church board in Vlasenica.

14     He met President Radovan Karadzic after Dr. Karadzic was elected

15     president of the SDS party.  They -- they shared a common heritage, and

16     their ancestors were from the Niksic area.  During the years, Mr. Bajagic

17     visited President Karadzic in his office in Pale and saw him at other

18     locations within Republika Srpska.

19             Mr. Bajagic was one of the organisers of a mass funeral in

20     Vlasenica on 30th of September, 1992.  While he does not recall the

21     details of President Karadzic's speech, he recalls that people in the

22     audience thought he was too conciliatory towards the Muslims.

23             Mr. Bajagic knew President Karadzic to be against any acts

24     against Muslim civilians and always sought to reduce tensions.

25     President Karadzic asked Mr. Bajagic to use his authority in the

Page 41147

 1     Vlasenica area to protect Muslim civilians.

 2             In July 1995, after the fall of Srebrenica, Mr. Bajagic went to

 3     the office of President Karadzic one day.  According to the appointment

 4     book of President Karadzic, that was in the late evening of

 5     14th of July, 1995.  Mr. Bajagic encountered President Karadzic only

 6     briefly and observed that President Karadzic was angry about something.

 7     During his time in President Karadzic's cabinet, he never heard of any

 8     information that prisoners from Srebrenica had been, were being, or would

 9     be killed.

10             Knowing President Karadzic as he did, Mr. Bajagic is sure that

11     President Karadzic would never be in favour or condone any killings of

12     prisoners.

13             [Interpretation] Thank you.  At this moment I have no further

14     questions for the gentleman, but I would like to allow

15     Mr. Karadzic [as interpreted] to tell us what he offered to tell us, and

16     may that be part of the examination-in-chief.  He wanted to utter a

17     sentence.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a sentence that I would

19     like to utter because this is a very big day in my life, because I am in

20     the centre of the world of justice.

21             Mr. President, I'm sure that you yourself have not heard this

22     sentence.  That is why I would like to utter that sentence.  It's a

23     simple sentence.

24             The true Lord support us with the force of your holy spirit.  Let

25     me not testify falsely.  Avert a false word from my tongue.  Glory to

Page 41148

 1     you, Lord.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And now I hand the

 3     witness over to the Prosecutor -- Prosecution.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  For the record, on this page, line 11, "to allow

 5     Mr. Karadzic" should read "to allow Mr. Bajagic."

 6             Yes, Mr. Bajagic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in

 7     this case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written

 8     witness statement in lieu of your oral testimony.  Now you will be

 9     cross-examined by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do

10     you understand that, sir?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Mr. President of the

12     Trial Chamber.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

15                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mitchell:

16        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, this morning you said at page 29 of our transcript,

17     line 25, that your statement had been shortened and that there were some

18     important things to be said.  Can I have your statement -- sorry, your

19     statement is in e-court.  Can we go to page 5 in English, page 6 in the

20     B/C/S.  And if you can just concentrate on paragraph 35.

21             JUDGE KWON:  You may refer to the hard copy, Mr. Bajagic.

22             MR. MITCHELL:

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Bajagic, you said there were some other important things

24     to be said.  I want to ask you about three important things that you did

25     on the 13th of July that aren't in this particular paragraph of your

Page 41149

 1     statement about what you did on 13 July.

 2             Now, the first important thing that isn't in your statement is

 3     that you were at the football field in Nova Kasaba on the afternoon of

 4     13 July 1995, weren't you?

 5        A.   This is not correct.  I was not at the football pitch.  I just

 6     passed along the road, and the football pitch was on the left-hand side.

 7     It's a main road, and whoever passed along that road could see that the

 8     football pitch was there.  I myself was not in the football pitch.

 9        Q.   Okay.  But you stopped at the football pitch, didn't you?

10        A.   Yes, we did stop there just briefly.

11        Q.   And when you say "we," you're talking about you and two group

12     volunteers who were in your car; right?

13        A.   Yes.  We stopped there just briefly.

14        Q.   Now, there were a lot of captured Muslims sitting on the football

15     field at the time, weren't there?

16        A.   Yes, that's correct.

17        Q.   Okay.  And the two group volunteers who were with you, they were

18     there to assist in the Srebrenica operation; is that right?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   But they were in your car and you were on your way to Srebrenica;

21     right?

22        A.   Well, you asked me a question about those two volunteers.  Those

23     two volunteers were not there to help with the operation in Srebrenica.

24     They just kept me company.  We were on our way to Srebrenica.  We were

25     curious to see that Srebrenica at the hand of whose inhabitants we

Page 41150

 1     suffered greatly.

 2        Q.   But they were soldiers, weren't they?  They were attached to the

 3     Vlasenica Brigade.

 4        A.   They were soldiers, volunteers, attached to the

 5     Vlasenica Brigade.  They were Greeks.

 6        Q.   All right.  Now, one of these volunteers had a camera, didn't he?

 7        A.   Yes.  One of them had a camera but not a film camera, a

 8     still-photo camera.

 9        Q.   And he took two or three photos of those prisoners, didn't he?

10        A.   Yes.  He got out of the car and he took photos of those people

11     who were in the stadium.

12        Q.   Now, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic [Realtime transcript read in

13     error "Poparic"] was at the Nova Kasaba football field then, wasn't he?

14        A.   He was on the main road.  He was standing right in front of our

15     vehicle.

16        Q.   And Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic was the assistant commander for

17     security in your unit, right, in the Drina Corps?

18        A.   Yes, that is correct.

19        Q.   And so Mr. Popovic saw this Greek volunteer taking photos of the

20     prisoners, and he came over and asked him what he was doing; is that

21     right?

22        A.   Yes, that is so.

23        Q.   And then Popovic confiscated the camera with those photos of the

24     prisoners on it.

25        A.   Could you please repeat your question?  I did not understand it

Page 41151

 1     the first time around.

 2        Q.   Certainly.  Mr. Popovic saw the Greek volunteer taking photos of

 3     the prisoners, and he came over and confiscated that camera from the

 4     Greek volunteer; isn't that right?

 5        A.   No, he did not confiscate it.  He just drew my attention to the

 6     fact that that should not be done, that photos should not be taken and

 7     that we should give him that camera or that the film should be taken out

 8     and exposed to light so that the photos would be lost, but I told him,

 9     Popovic, I give you my guarantee that those photos will never be seen by

10     anybody or that they will be reproduced, so there's no need for you to

11     confiscate that camera from him.

12        Q.   And did you make sure that those photos were exposed and would

13     never be seen by anybody?

14        A.   I have never seen them, never so far.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, and if I can just make a couple of

16     transcript corrections.  I think the last page repeatedly referred to

17     Lieutenant-Colonel "Poparic."  It should be "Popovic."

18             JUDGE KWON:  It should be Popovic.  Yes.

19             MR. MITCHELL:

20        Q.   Just one more question about Nova Kasaba.  Did you see

21     General Mladic at Nova Kasaba?

22        A.   No, I didn't see him.  He wasn't there.

23        Q.   General Gvero?

24        A.   No, he wasn't there.  I didn't see him.

25        Q.   What about Milomir Savcic, the commander of the

Page 41152

 1     65th Protection Regiment?

 2        A.   Milomir Savcic wasn't there either.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I can -- I'm about to move to a

 4     different area, so this might be a convenient time.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Before we break, you referred to the

 6     Drina Corps as his unit.  Could you clarify with the witness.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  Certainly.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, you were a member of the Drina Corps, were you not,

 9     the Logistics Battalion of the Drina Corps?

10        A.   The Drina Corps did not have a Logistics Battalion, and I was a

11     desk officer for logistics.  That was my duty.  That was my position, but

12     you don't need a battalion for that.

13        Q.   Okay.  But you were a desk officer for logistics for the

14     Drina Corps; is that right?

15        A.   Yes.  You may put it that way.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll have a break for half an hour and resume

17     at 11.00.

18                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

19                           --- On resuming at 11.02 a.m.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Mitchell.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

22        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, just before the break I asked you whether

23     Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic confiscated the camera from the Greek

24     volunteer, and you said no he didn't confiscate it.  I just want to

25     clarify.  Is it your testimony that he did or he didn't confiscate that

Page 41153

 1     camera?

 2        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I first said that it was not a camera.  It was an

 3     ordinary photo camera.  Then I said that he did not confiscate it.

 4     That's what I said in my answer a while ago.

 5        Q.   You testified in the state court in the case of Franc Kos on the

 6     4th of November, 2011, didn't you?

 7        A.   Yes, I did.

 8        Q.   And you'd agree that two years ago your memory of this incident

 9     would have been fresher; right?

10        A.   You have to remind me better.  Fresher in what sense?

11        Q.   Why don't I just read to you what you said in the Kos case.  You

12     were asked -- you mentioned Colonel Popovic being there, and then you

13     were asked:  "Are you talking about Vujadin Popovic?"

14             And your answer was:

15             "Yes.  And Vujadin asked him," talking about the Greek volunteer,

16     "What are you taking pictures of?  What are you doing?  Something like

17     that.  Let me take the camera off of you.  And so he took it, the camera,

18     so we," and there's an indiscernible word, "to vehicle and left for

19     Srebrenica."

20             So in the Kos case you said Vujadin Popovic did take the camera.

21        A.   Thank you for reminding me.  I suppose that he only took it,

22     opened it, and exposed the film to light.  I suppose that that's what

23     might have happened.  Now, Mr. Prosecutor, that was a long time ago.  One

24     cannot remember every single full stop or comma or anything else after

25     such a long time.

Page 41154

 1        Q.   So to be absolutely clear, you gave Vujadin Popovic your

 2     guarantee that these photos would never be seen by anybody, they would

 3     never be reproduced, and Popovic still wasn't happy with that, and so he

 4     took the camera and exposed the photos there and then himself; is that

 5     right?

 6        A.   Well, you're saying that he took the photo and exposed the film.

 7     That's what you are saying.  A while ago I stated that I suppose that he

 8     may have taken it and exposed the film.  That's all.  Hopefully you are

 9     satisfied with this answer.

10        Q.   I think I'll move on.  I think that's clear.  Now, Mr. Bajagic,

11     you were in your VRS Golf at the time, weren't you, your car?

12        A.   Yes.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I have 65 ter 25352 in e-court.

14        Q.   What you're about to see, Mr. Bajagic, is a document from the

15     20th of November, 1992.  It's assigning a vehicle to you for the needs of

16     military post 7111.  Post 7111 is the Drina Corps, isn't it?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And we can see at the top in the first -- the very first

19     paragraph it says that you're being given this vehicle in order to ensure

20     preconditions for the implementation of official tasks.  So this was a

21     car that you used for official things; right?  You didn't use it for

22     personal trips.

23        A.   It depended.  Sometimes I used it for my personal needs.

24        Q.   You used a VRS army car that was given to you for official --

25     official tasks sometimes for your personal use.  Is that what you're

Page 41155

 1     saying?

 2        A.   Yes.  Yes, yes.

 3        Q.   Okay.  And we can see there the registration number of the car,

 4     P7105.  It's the same car that you had throughout the war; right?

 5        A.   Well, I did drive other vehicles as well depending on what task I

 6     had to go to accomplish, decided what the car I would use, and also some

 7     of the vehicles were broken, and then one had to use a different vehicle.

 8        Q.   Well, we'll come back to the issue of your car later.  Now, I

 9     want to ask you about -- just very briefly you remember testifying in the

10     Popovic case in 2009; right?

11        A.   Yes.  I remember testifying, but I cannot remember the details.

12     If you need anything specific, could you kindly remind me if possible.

13        Q.   You understood in that case that Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic was

14     on trial for the murder of those prisoners, didn't you?

15        A.   Yes, I did.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, can we have the reference

17     that it says that this relates specifically to those prisoners.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor in line 10 said that

20     he was convicted for the murder of those prisoners who had been seen in

21     Kasaba.  Are we talking about the Kasaba prisoners, and is there any

22     reference pointing to them being the prisoners in Kasaba?

23             MR. MITCHELL:  I think the judgement makes that very clear.

24             JUDGE KWON:  I think we can continue.  Shall we continue?

25             MR. MITCHELL:

Page 41156

 1        Q.   Well, it's very simple, Mr. Bajagic.  You didn't mention going to

 2     Nova Kasaba or seeing the prisoners or seeing Lieutenant Popovic either

 3     confiscate this camera or confiscate it and expose the film.  You didn't

 4     mention this incident at all in that case, did you?

 5        A.   I don't remember.

 6        Q.   All right.  Let's move on to the second big important thing about

 7     your movement on 13 July that isn't in your statement in this case.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can play Exhibit P4201, the Srebrenica trial

 9     video.

10             And, Your Honours, if you have the hard copy book, the transcript

11     of this is at page 04077886.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is too dark.  I can't discern

14     anything.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we adjust the angle with the assistance of our

16     usher.  Let us see whether you can see better.

17             Do you hear the sound, Mr. Bajagic?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I don't.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I was told that ...

20             Mr. Bajagic, do you hear me?

21             MR. USHER:  He can here you, but he cannot hear the --

22             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told that there's a problem with the e-court.

23     We need to rise for five minutes to fix it.

24                           --- Break taken at 11.16 a.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 11.39 a.m.

Page 41157

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell, please continue.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, we'd moved on to the second important thing that was

 4     missing from your statement --

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat what he said.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters didn't hear you.  What did you say?

 7     Was it about your name?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  My last name is Bajagic, not

 9     Bajic.

10             MR. MITCHELL:

11        Q.   I'll do my best to pronounce it properly, Mr. Bajagic.  I wanted

12     to ask you about another important thing, the second important thing

13     that's missing from your statement in relation to 13 July.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can play P4201, part 3 of the Srebrenica

15     trial video starting at 1 minute and 39 seconds.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] Mladic:  Are you from here?

18             "Woman:  Yes, I am, from this house.

19             "Mladic:  From this house?

20             "Woman:  Yes.

21             "Mladic:  When were you expelled from here?

22             "Woman:  On 10 April 1992.

23             "Mladic:  Is there anything inside?  Have you been inside?

24             "Woman:  Yes, I have.

25             "Mladic:  Well, here you are.  Let's go in.

Page 41158

 1             "This is your own house?

 2             "Woman:  It's my own house.

 3             "Mladic:  They have destroyed all of this?

 4             "Woman:  All of it.  I just got in through the gate.

 5             "Mladic:  Did you have any children?

 6             "Woman:  I have two, two children, a daughter and a son.

 7             "Mladic:  What about your husband?

 8             "Woman:  My husband was here with my mother-in-law.  When the

 9     roads were closed off, he left and was killed right at the beginning of

10     the war.

11             "Mladic:  He was killed?

12             "Woman:  Yes.

13             "Mladic:  Do you know who killed him?

14             "Woman:  I don't know.

15             "Mladic:  And do you know where he was buried?

16             "Woman:  I don't know that either.

17             "Mladic:  What kind of work" --

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Pause there.  And that's at 2 minutes and

19     31 seconds.

20        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, can you identify for us on the right-hand side of

21     the screen close to the camera, that's General Mladic, isn't it?

22        A.   Yes.  You can see that it's General Mladic.

23        Q.   And moving across to the left, the second person, that's you;

24     right?

25        A.   No.  This is too dark.  You can't see that.  You can only see

Page 41159

 1     Mladic here.  Nothing can be seen in the background.

 2        Q.   Well, look harder, Mr. Bajagic.  That's you, isn't it?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  You may come closer to the monitor.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I'm looking into the screen,

 5     but I can see nothing.  I can only see Mladic and the woman.  I can't

 6     make out these contours in the background.

 7             THE ACCUSED:  That was the same --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's dark.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  That was same in the video, but in the e-court is a

10     little bit better.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have a printout?

12             MR. MITCHELL:  I'm just looking for it, Mr. President.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you ask whether you -- whether he was

14     there with General Mladic.

15             MR. MITCHELL:

16        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, you heard the President's question.  You were there

17     in Srebrenica with General Mladic, weren't you, on 13 July?

18        A.   Yes.  We met.

19        Q.   Right.  And if I can get you to continue across, to skip the next

20     gentleman, the third in, the fourth one whose head you can just see over

21     the top of the woman, that's Colonel Petar Salapura, isn't it?

22        A.   I can only clearly see Mladic.  It's dark and you can't make out

23     these figures.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  Well, maybe we can bring up Exhibit P4202, e-court

25     page 115.  It's page 115.  We can blow the photo right up.

Page 41160

 1        Q.   Okay.  The person with the number 3 on their chest, that's you,

 2     isn't it?

 3        A.   If you could lighten it up a bit.

 4        Q.   Well, why don't we -- why don't I ask you about the person with a

 5     number 2 next to his head.  That's very light.  That's Colonel Salapura,

 6     isn't it?

 7        A.   That's what you say.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, are you --

 9        A.   Now you can see it.  Yes.  Now you can tell it's Salapura.

10        Q.   Okay.

11        A.   Yes, I see myself now as well.  I can see now that I was here as

12     well.

13        Q.   Colonel Salapura is the -- or was the chief of the VRS Main Staff

14     intelligence organ, wasn't he?

15        A.   Yes, he was.

16        Q.   And you were aware at the time, were you not, that

17     Colonel Salapura had professional control over the

18     10th Sabotage Detachment?

19        A.   Can I ask you to repeat the first part of your question?  I

20     didn't understand.

21        Q.   I was asking if you were aware at the time of this meeting that

22     Colonel Salapura and General Mladic, that Colonel Salapura had

23     professional control of the 10th Sabotage Detachment.

24        A.   Please, once more.  You mentioned a meeting.  Can you please

25     define your question reasonably.  A moment ago you didn't mention a

Page 41161

 1     meeting.  The word used was "meeting."

 2        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, let me stop you there.  The question is simple.  On

 3     the 13th of July, 1995, did you know that Colonel Salapura had

 4     professional control over the 10th Sabotage Detachment?

 5        A.   Yes.  You see, now you were clear.  Yes, he was.

 6        Q.   Right.  Let's move to the third important thing that's not in

 7     your statement in relation to 13 July.  In the late afternoon hours of

 8     that day, General Mladic came to your house, didn't he?

 9        A.   Which date did you say, sorry?

10        Q.   Same day as this, 13 July.

11        A.   Yes, he did.

12        Q.   And he sat out on the terrace and had a beer; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   So you're sitting -- sitting out on the terrace with

15     General Mladic having a beer, and the chief of the Vlasenica police,

16     Milenko Majstorovic came by your house; is that right?

17        A.   Yes, that's right.

18        Q.   And Milenko Majstorovic said Tomo Kovac, the deputy minister of

19     the interior, was either at the police station or the corps in Vlasenica,

20     at the Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica; right?

21        A.   I think that he said that he may have been in the hotel.

22        Q.   Well, maybe I can remind you of what you said in the Kos case in

23     2011.  This is page 12 of the Kos transcript, and you said:

24             "The chief of the police, he came by and he said, 'Tomo is either

25     in the police or the corps.'"

Page 41162

 1             So does that remind you of where Tomo Kovac was at the time?

 2        A.   Look, you refreshed my memory somewhat now.  I'm rewinding this

 3     film, trying to recall some other details.  I do remember that chief of

 4     police Milenko Majstorovic told General Mladic when he got there that

 5     Tomo Kovac was in Vlasenica, either at the police station, the corps, or

 6     the hotel.  He added the hotel.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Thank you.  So General Mladic asked you to go and find

 8     Tomo Kovac, right, and to check where he was?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   So you went and found him.  You went and found Tomo Kovac.

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And where did you --

13        A.   I found him but --

14        Q.   -- find him?

15        A.   Well, that I can't remember.  I did find him, but I don't know

16     where.  I'm not sure, but I did find him.

17        Q.   And after you found him, General Mladic and Tomo Kovac had a

18     meeting, didn't they?

19        A.   General Mladic sent me to find him and call him to my house.  The

20     reason was that they should discuss something.

21        Q.   Well, you were at this meeting, weren't you, Mr. Bajagic?

22        A.   Well, in my mind this wasn't a meeting.  It was a short

23     encounter.  They discussed something, but out of courtesy I didn't want

24     to sit at the table with them.  I assumed that as two commanders,

25     commander of the Serbian Army and the commander of the Serbian police,

Page 41163

 1     had something to talk about.  So I went out while the two of them had a

 2     word.  What they talked about, I don't know.

 3        Q.   Well, Mr. Bajagic, it's our case that the commander of the VRS

 4     Main Staff and the deputy minister of the interior definitely had

 5     something to talk about on the afternoon of 13 July.  This is our case on

 6     what that meeting was about.  Tomo Kovac came to Vlasenica from Pale.  He

 7     had been in a meeting with President Karadzic that ended at 4.10 p.m.,

 8     that's in President Karadzic's appointment diary P2242.  So Tomo Kovac

 9     then comes to Vlasenica and meets General Mladic in the late afternoon

10     hours of 13 July right around the time of the Kravica warehouse execution

11     is starting.  So given the timing, the location and the participants of

12     this meeting, it had to be about the Srebrenica prisoners; right?

13        A.   That's what you say.  How should I know what they talked about?

14     I said a moment ago that I was not present during their discussion.  I

15     courteously offered them coffee and drinks as a host, let them to discuss

16     the matter, and then when they ended their conversation, I came back to

17     offer some other hospitality.  I have no way of knowing what they were

18     talking about.

19        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, we've talked about three things, three important

20     things, that weren't in your statement in this case, your visit at

21     Nova Kasaba, seeing the prisoners there, your being with General Mladic

22     and Colonel Salapura in Srebrenica.  And this meeting between the

23     commander of the VRS Main Staff and the deputy minister of the interior.

24     Mr. Bajagic, you left them out of that statement, didn't you, because you

25     didn't want the Trial Chamber to know when you went up to meet the

Page 41164

 1     president in the early hours of the 15th of July who you'd been meeting

 2     with and the fact that you knew about prisoners at the time; right?

 3        A.   Firstly, I'd like to ask you to split this long question in two

 4     or three and then I'll answer it.  You've put ten questions in one.

 5        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, I'll simplify it for you.  We have talked about

 6     three things this morning that were not in your statement in this case,

 7     and the reason that they're not in your statement is because you didn't

 8     want the Trial Chamber to know who you'd been meeting with and that you

 9     knew about prisoners when you went up to meet with him on the late night

10     of 14 July; right?

11        A.   Hold right there.  Again, three questions in one sentence.  Let's

12     take things one at a time.  I apologise, Mr. Prosecutor.  I asked you to

13     split the question in two or three and take things one at a time and then

14     I will be able to answer what I can answer.  I have remembered the first

15     question --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bajagic, those three questions were questions

17     already asked to you.  The first thing is prisoners at Nova Kasaba you

18     saw and your meeting with Mr. -- your encounter with Mr. Mladic in

19     Srebrenica together with Colonel Salapura, and the last thing, the

20     meeting of Mr. Mladic and Kovac at your place.  Those were discussed.  We

21     are talking about this.  And question was -- could you repeat your

22     question just about these three incidents.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24        Q.   My question, Mr. Bajagic, what I'm suggesting to you is you left

25     those three things out of your statement in this case.  We can agree on

Page 41165

 1     that; right?  They're not in your statement, are they?  Yes or no?

 2        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, don't try to trap me.  Don't try to play that I

 3     didn't want to say that --

 4        Q.   Mr. Bajagic --

 5        A.   -- to the Trial Chamber because nobody ever asked me about these

 6     photos.  Nobody has ever asked me about these photos.  Nobody has ever

 7     shown them to me.  This is the first time I'm being asked about them and

 8     shown them.  And as for Mr. Mladic and Mr. Tomo Kovac, I did say that

 9     they were in my house.  I said it the last time I testified.  And as for

10     the other two things, you are putting these things to me for the first

11     time, and you are trying to imply that I omitted those things

12     intentionally so that the Trial Chamber wouldn't hear about them and

13     wouldn't know about them, and it is not correct.

14             JUDGE KWON:  The question may be asked in this way:  Did you tell

15     the Defence the fact that Mr. Kovac and General Mladic met at your place?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To the Defence, Mr. President?

17     Yes.  Yes, I did, yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Mitchell.

19             MR. MITCHELL:

20        Q.   And you told them that you testified in the Kos case; right?  In

21     the state court.

22        A.   Yes.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we be more precise.  What

24     Defence, because the witness has testified in several cases so far.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, you can clarify with the witness later

Page 41166

 1     on.  I clearly meant Defence in this case.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:

 3        Q.   All right, Mr. Bajagic, let's move to something completely

 4     different.  I want to ask you about your relationship with Mr. Karadzic.

 5             Now, in paragraph 28 of your statement, if you have a look at it

 6     in front of you there.  You can see in paragraph 28 you say that you

 7     often visited him if he called you on orders of someone in your unit

 8     command.

 9             Now, in the Popovic case you were talking about this very same

10     thing, and you said at transcript 32506 in that case:

11             "When he," talking about President Karadzic, "needed to see me or

12     wanted to see me, he would call me, and he would say, 'Can you come over

13     at lunch or dinner?'"

14             So that's the way it worked; right?  When he wanted to see you,

15     he would call you and ask you to come up to Pale; right?

16        A.   It happened on a numerous -- number of occasions during the

17     four-year time.

18        Q.   But what I'm specifically asking you, he would give you a call

19     and ask you to come up; right?

20        A.   Whenever he needed me, the president invited me to come with a

21     good reason, and I called him when I need to talk to him or when I needed

22     to see him.

23        Q.   You also said in the Popovic case, this is at T32509 in that

24     case, that you mostly talked about personal matters, but that that were

25     some official talks as well.  You said it had to do with "some civilian

Page 41167

 1     issues regarding our municipality, our area, humanitarian aid,

 2     accommodation of refugees, dissentiment among the people, the talks,

 3     et cetera."

 4             So when you'd go up and see President Karadzic in Pale, you'd

 5     brief him about the sentiment of the people in Vlasenica about various

 6     issues; right?

 7        A.   Yes, we discussed those issues as well.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the interpretation we heard the

 9     word "Vlasenica" whereas in the transcript we read "Srebrenica."  Line

10     21.  The witness received the interpretation as "Vlasenica."  At the same

11     time the transcript reflects that as "Srebrenica."

12             JUDGE KWON:  The transcript reads as Vlasenica.  Shall we

13     continue.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. President.

15        Q.   So an issue affecting the sentiment of people in Vlasenica would

16     be something like the fall of Srebrenica, people leaving Srebrenica, all

17     the prisoners who had been caught, those kind of things; right?

18        A.   It depended on the developments and on the time.  There were also

19     such questions and issues discussed.  Why are you not more precise?  Why

20     don't you mention the day, the month, the year?  We actually saw each

21     other all the time throughout the four years of war and even before the

22     war, so you should be more precise with regard to the time.

23        Q.   I will be.  You said it depended on the developments as to what

24     you talked about.  The fall of Srebrenica was a hugely significant

25     development, wasn't it?

Page 41168

 1        A.   Yes, significant indeed.

 2        Q.   And all of the people leaving Srebrenica on buses that went right

 3     through the middle of Vlasenica, that's a significant development, isn't

 4     it?

 5        A.   Yes, that's right.  But let me add to that that we were all glad,

 6     I personally, that Srebrenica had fallen, because they were the source of

 7     a lot of sorrow and misfortune for all the Serbian villages, particularly

 8     those that bordered on Srebrenica, all the villages around Srebrenica.

 9        Q.   Well, maybe I can just ask you then about paragraph 36(a) of your

10     statement where you say you were upset that the Muslims were leaving

11     Srebrenica.  36(a).  You say you went up to see the president,

12     President Karadzic, because you were upset that the Muslims were leaving

13     Srebrenica.  That's not true, is it?

14        A.   That's true, but let's separate the civilian population of

15     Srebrenica that had suffered the same way as our Serbian population from

16     their soldiers who were villains.  That's what I was sorry about.  I was

17     sorry that the long-suffering people still suffered.  I could see them

18     passing through in those lorries and in those buses by my house.  Since I

19     knew Mr. Karadzic as a God fearing and honest person, I asked him about

20     the destiny of those people.  I asked him, Mr. President, what will be

21     the lot of these people?  Where are they being taken to?  What is going

22     to happen to them?

23        Q.   Don't worry, we'll talk about that meeting at length in a little

24     while.  You were talking about the kinds of significant developments that

25     you talked to the president about, and you agreed that the fall of

Page 41169

 1     Srebrenica, people leaving buses.  Another significant development was

 2     all the prisoners, right, that had been captured?  You'd seen them at

 3     Nova Kasaba.  So that's another significant development, wasn't it?

 4        A.   Yes.  That was significant, but I was not in the least interested

 5     in them, because they were soldiers, and they were the cause of a lot of

 6     plight and sorrow.  They killed a lot of Serbs.  They plundered and

 7     burned villages.  Maybe not all of them, but in my eyes they were all

 8     villains and criminals.  It was supposed to be a demilitarised zone, and

 9     they were armed to the tooth.  They had more ammunition than we did.

10     Whenever they wanted they entered our territory, and whenever they did

11     that they committed crimes.  They killed people.  They plundered and

12     burned.  In the village of Podravanje, they took one of my own employees,

13     they impaled him and they grilled him on the spit.

14        Q.   Well, that must have been pretty significant then.  All these

15     villains had been caught; right?

16        A.   I don't know if they were all captured but that is my opinion of

17     them.

18        Q.   Well, Mr. Bajagic, the Trial Chamber's heard evidence that the

19     killing of some of those prisoners from Srebrenica in Kravica on 13 July

20     was an open secret almost immediately in Bratunac, and it was known in

21     Skelani the same night, and then some of these prisoners were moved to

22     Zvornik and caused great discontent among the people in Zvornik that

23     those prisoners had been moved there.

24             Now, you're in Vlasenica at the headquarters of the Drina Corps.

25     You're at the centre of the military unit in this area.  You must have

Page 41170

 1     heard about those killings almost immediately; right?

 2        A.   Yes, we heard about the killings at Kravica.

 3        Q.   And you heard about that almost straight away, didn't you?

 4        A.   Please explain.  What do you mean by "straight away"?

 5        Q.   The same day.

 6        A.   No, on the following day.

 7        Q.   The following day.

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   All right.  Let's move on.  Let's talk about 1991.  Now, you were

10     involved in arming the Serbs in Vlasenica in 1991, weren't you?

11        A.   No.  No.  You are not right.

12        Q.   Okay.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  Can we have 65 ter 30461 in e-court.

14        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, perhaps I can give you a hard copy to make it easier

15     for you to read.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  If our usher could assist Mr. Mitchell.

17             MR. MITCHELL:

18        Q.   If you can just take your time and have a read of that and let me

19     know when you're done.

20             Why don't you let me know when you're finished the first page.

21     This is quite a lengthy intercept, so let me know when you get to the

22     bottom of page 1.

23        A.   I've done reading the first page.

24        Q.   A moment ago I asked you, "You were involved in arming the Serbs

25     in Vlasenica in 1991," and you said, "No.  No.  You're not right."

Page 41171

 1             So page 1 of the intercept, you're talking to President Karadzic,

 2     and you tell him, "About 600 volunteers in two days."  President Karadzic

 3     says, "Brilliant."  And then you say, "They have all been clothed and

 4     armed."

 5             So that's you talking about arming the Serbs in Vlasenica in

 6     1991; right?

 7        A.   On page 1 it doesn't say that they were clothed and armed, but

 8     these are not volunteers.  That's what we call them.  They were soldiers

 9     who responded to the mobilisation call.  At that time, the

10     Army of Yugoslavia still existed and the command was very close by in

11     Han Pijesak.  Mobilisation was carried out and people responded as

12     volunteers.  That's how we referred to them, volunteers.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Probably he needs to read the second page as well.

14             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.

15        Q.   Why don't you read the second and third pages, Mr. Bajagic.  If

16     you go over the page.  Read page 2.

17        A.   One page is missing here.  There's page 2, and then there's

18     page 4.  The pages are not in order.  I'm missing a page here.

19        Q.   Okay.  Why don't you look at the screen in front of you then.

20     Can you read that?

21        A.   It's not easy.  A page is missing here.  You can't have the word

22     "excellent" here and then the following entry says, "Tomorrow we are

23     going to."  So there's no sequence.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Our usher will bring you a new set of intercept.

25     Could you take a look at that.

Page 41172

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, it's five pages long.  If it were

 2     more convenient, we could break and let Mr. Bajagic read it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4             Mr. Bajagic, we'll have a break now for 45 minutes, and during

 5     the break you may read the intercept so you can answer the question about

 6     it.

 7             We will have a break for 50 minutes and resume at quarter past

 8     1.00.

 9                           --- Recess taken at 12.23 p.m.

10                           --- On resuming at 1.17 p.m.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I was told that the Defence was not planning to call

12     the next witness today.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  And the Defence wished that tomorrow we start at

15     11.00.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

17             JUDGE KWON:  That will be done.

18             Yes, please continue, Mr. Mitchell.

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, you've had an opportunity to read the intercept over

21     lunch?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   At the top of the second page in B/C/S you say -- you're talking

24     about the volunteers.  They have all been clothed and armed.  That's you

25     talking about arming Serb volunteers, isn't it?

Page 41173

 1        A.   Well, I conveyed this to Mr. President during the conversation,

 2     that they were clothed and armed, and we used to call them volunteers

 3     because they responded to mobilisation voluntarily, which had been

 4     conducted by the then draft office, and these were call-up papers sent by

 5     the Yugoslav People's Army.  As for the fact that I said they were

 6     clothed and armed that meant that the Yugoslav Army provided clothes and

 7     arms for them because they were the ones who mobilised them.  Where could

 8     we find arms to arm 600 people and to clothe them?

 9        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, go on to page 2 in the English, the bottom of page 2

10     in your document, you say to President Karadzic:  Seeing as the party has

11     done it all.  And then if we go over to page 3 in the English, 4 in the

12     B/C/S, we see President Karadzic say:  They helped the army up there.

13     The party helped the army form a volunteers detachment.

14             The party is the SDS, isn't it?

15        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, can I first answer the question and then the

16     question relating to everything was completed by the party, because you

17     haven't read until the very end.  The party completed this, but that

18     means that we were preparing a feast to celebrate such a successful

19     response by people to mobilisation, so we wanted to celebrate that.  So

20     the party and the local people prepared all the food, drink, and

21     orchestras, and this is what the party was involved in organising, and

22     there were also participation in that by some companies and local farmers

23     who provided food in order for the feast to be as lavish as possible.

24     That's one thing.

25        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, let me stop you there.  Let me stop you there.  Go

Page 41174

 1     to page 4 in your copy, and you see the President saying:  The party

 2     helped the army to form a volunteers detachment.  They're not talking

 3     about refreshments.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see the passage in English as well.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  It's page 3 in English, Mr. President.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't find it.  Radovan, what is

 7     he saying?

 8             MR. MITCHELL:

 9        Q.   It's the big paragraph in the fifth box down, and you can see

10     President Karadzic says to someone else:  The party helped the army form

11     a volunteers detachment.  They're not talking about the party helped

12     prepare a feast.  They're talking about the party helped prepare or

13     helped form a volunteers detachment.

14        A.   I'm sorry, I can't find it.  Can you please point it to me.

15        Q.   Can you look at the screen in front of you.

16        A.   Yes, but where is it?

17        Q.   Can you see it now where President Karadzic says:  The party

18     helped the army to form a volunteers detachment.  Can you see that?

19        A.   Under the command of the Yugoslav People's Army.  Is that it?

20     It's further on in this passage.

21        Q.   No.  It's right after where it says:  Karadzic is talking to

22     Nikola in the office.  The very next sentence is:  They helped the army

23     up there.  The party helped the army to form a volunteers detachment.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  The passage you referred to follows after

25     that.  They were under the JNA command.  They were clothed.  They were in

Page 41175

 1     JNA uniform.  Very well, what is your question Mr. Mitchell?

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  My question was very simple, Mr. President.

 3        Q.   The party --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Let's put a pause.  Yes.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:

 6        Q.   In this conversation where both you and President Karadzic are

 7     talking about the party.  You are talking about the SDS, aren't you?

 8        A.   Yes, the SDS party.  But I did not give an answer to your

 9     question.  You are insisting on this being done by the party.  Let me

10     tell you, the direct cause for this mobilisation and this response was

11     something that indicated to us that something was in the offing, because

12     the SDA promotion of that party took place in 1991.

13             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please repeat his --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bajagic, probably you spoke a bit too fast for

15     the interpreters.  Could you repeat, "The direct cause for this

16     mobilisation ..."

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The reason for carrying out

18     mobilisation, and we actually asked for it, was occasioned by fear among

19     Serbs in the district of Vlasenica, because the first promotion of the

20     SDA party for Bosnia-Herzegovina took place in Vlasenica.  This is

21     something that caused concern amongst us, the fact that it took place in

22     Vlasenica instead of Sarajevo.  Knowing what happened to Serbs in 1941 in

23     the Vlasenica district we surmise that something bad was in the making

24     and it turned out to be true.

25             From the 6th of April, 1941, until the 22nd June, 1946 --

Page 41176

 1             MR. MITCHELL:

 2        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, can I stop you there.  My question was simply that

 3     the reference to the party was the SDS, and you said yes; right?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I tender this, Mr. President?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive this.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honour, the intercept is already in evidence

 8     as Exhibit D1653.

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

10        Q.   All right.  Let's go back to 1995, 12th of July.  If I can play

11     P4201 and the transcript is P4202.  This is part 2 of the Srebrenica

12     trial video, and we're starting at time-code 39 minutes and 2 seconds?

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters have difficulty finding the

15     transcript.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             THE WITNESS:  Stop.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you please turn the volume

20     down a bit.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the Prosecutor give us the reference where

23     the transcript starts from, because we have full text, the whole page.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And if we can start from the

25     beginning.  I didn't understand a thing.

Page 41177

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll do so, but if -- Mr. Mitchell, could you

 2     give the reference to the interpreters.  They have the whole book.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, the transcript's in the trial video

 4     book at ERN 07047875.  That's where we are starting from.

 5                           [Video-clip played]

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Since we don't have the transcript, we're going

 7     to read from the screen:

 8             "[Voiceover] Trust me, I only look towards our church inspiring

 9     some wish because I grew up there, and believe me in my document it says

10     Easter 1995.  And it says Vlasenica.  Even officially to score

11     differently now documents but I wrote it down in my documents that this

12     is Easter."

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It stopped now.

14             MR. MITCHELL:

15        Q.   I just want to ask you a couple of questions.  That's, in the

16     middle of the screen, General Zivanovic; right?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And can you tell us what this occasion is?

19        A.   That's the date of St. Peter and Paul.  It is celebrated by our

20     church in Vlasenica and also the patron saint of the SDS party, and this

21     is me preparing a lunch, as I do every year in the church for selected

22     guests.

23        Q.   And that's you, we can see, just on the right-hand side of the

24     screen about halfway up; is that right?

25        A.   Now I can't hear you.  Can you please turn the volume up now and

Page 41178

 1     can you repeat your question, please.

 2        Q.   We can see you in this shot, can't we, just half of you?

 3        A.   Who do you see?

 4        Q.   You.

 5        A.   No, I don't see myself here.

 6        Q.   We'll keep playing.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] And I guess our enemies wanted it

 9     to be higher than the church and therefore they took down half of our

10     bell."

11             MR. MITCHELL:

12        Q.   You can see yourself there now; right?

13        A.   Yes, that's me.

14        Q.   That's at 40 minutes and 7 seconds.  We'll keep playing.

15                           [Video-clip played]

16             THE INTERPRETER:  "[Voiceover] I guess our enemies wanted to make

17     it higher than the church, to make the minaret higher.  However,

18     [indiscernible] this morning, General has this famous mosque been

19     finished.  I told him I think that they finished it this morning.  That's

20     what I said, finished this morning.  Well, let me tell you some more.

21     The town as such was not -- as such was not crowded with residents as

22     they sold over Motorola.  No, no, no.  It was not like that.  They had

23     fantastic weaponry in Motorolas and scared, gullible Serbs.  It is best

24     to listen to the Turks as little as possible and one should not listen to

25     some of the less good Serbs.  Simply take the sword in your hand and go

Page 41179

 1     ahead.  Our army started out powerfully.  Yesterday, Yuni [phoen] forces

 2     were introduced from the police force in Bratunac towards Potocari.  One

 3     wing of our army went towards Viogor.  Viogor is the crest of the hills

 4     towards Milici, Srebrenica and so.  God willing, we will get to Derventa

 5     from Srebrenica.  That is our task.  Yesterday at dusk -- no, from Milici

 6     to Derventa.  From Srebrenica to Derventa.  Yes, from Srebrenica to

 7     Derventa.  Let me tell you that with yesterday's task any organised

 8     Muslim life to the left of Jadar ceased to exist."

 9             MR. MITCHELL:

10        Q.   All right.  Before I ask you a question, I want to jump to the

11     very end of this speech and if we can play 65 ter 40369A, and this clip

12     starts at 1 minute -- sorry, 1 hour and 24 minutes.

13                           [Video-clip played]

14             MR. MITCHELL:

15        Q.   All right.  So we've just seen the commander of the Drina Corps,

16     General Zivanovic, giving a speech about organised Muslim life to the

17     left of Jadar ceased existing at dusk the previous day, 11 July, and you

18     also heard him talking about flattening at least one or possibly two

19     mosques.  Mr. -- Mr. Bajagic, why midday on 12 July when the women,

20     children, and elderly population of Srebrenica is still in Potocari is

21     the commander of the Drina Corps talking about blowing up a mosque and

22     the end of organised life?

23        A.   I don't know how Zivanovic could have said something like this.

24     As far as I know, he never went to Srebrenica, and he did not lead the

25     action in Srebrenica.  It was led by Krstic.  I didn't see any demolished

Page 41180

 1     mosques, and I didn't see the belfry in Srebrenica demolished.  The whole

 2     church was devastated, and everything inside was desecrated, but as far

 3     as I remember, the belfry remained intact, but he was bragging about

 4     this.  That's what I think, because the people from the top leadership of

 5     command wanted to remove him, and since he delivered this speech as he

 6     did, maybe they gave up on the idea.

 7        Q.   Well, you know that --

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.  In line 9, the witness

 9     said that he wasn't in Srebrenica, Zivanovic, not himself.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And then if you want to check, it's

12     in line 9, it refers to Zivanovic.  "I never went to Srebrenica" should

13     read "He never went to Srebrenica."  And in lines 14 and 15 it says,

14     "They gave up on the idea."  Instead, the witness says "Half of it was

15     untrue."  He never spoke about giving up on the idea.  He stated that

16     whatever Zivanovic said, half of it was untrue.

17             MR. MITCHELL:

18        Q.   Well, Mr. Bajagic, the bit about flattening the mosque was true,

19     wasn't it?  You know that the mosque in Srebrenica had its minaret

20     flattened after the VRS took the town; right?

21        A.   Yes.  Later on I saw it myself, but I didn't see it at the time.

22     Whether it happened on the same day or the next day, I didn't see it

23     then.  I didn't say it wasn't flattened.

24        Q.   Well, just one more thing on this video.  Paragraph 36(a) of your

25     statement, you said that you were upset that the Muslims were leaving

Page 41181

 1     Srebrenica, and yet we saw you at a speech with General Zivanovic talking

 2     about the end of organised life and flattening a mosque.  And you toasted

 3     him at the end of that speech.  You weren't upset about those Muslims

 4     leaving at all, were you?

 5        A.   Well, it's a celebration.  I'm not going to cry when -- are

 6     celebrating.  You don't know what the Serbs' customs are.  He delivered a

 7     toast, and it is a duty of a host to return a toast and to greet his

 8     guests.  So you cannot make such judgements about me saying that I wasn't

 9     upset at all simply based on the fact that I raised a glass to him.

10     Please don't do that.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, can I tender that last little clip,

12     65 ter --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Was it not already in evidence?

14             MR. MITCHELL:  No, it wasn't, Mr. President.  It's the very end

15     of General Zivanovic's speech, but we didn't include that in the trial

16     video compilation, and it was done a couple of years ago.

17             JUDGE KWON:  What was the 65 ter number for that?

18             MR. MITCHELL:  40369A.

19             JUDGE KWON:  If you could identify the time-frame later on of

20     what we saw.

21             MR. MITCHELL:  We saw on that video time-codes 1 hour, 24 minutes

22     and 0 seconds through to 1 hour 24 minutes and 31 seconds.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be admitted.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6442, Your Honours.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  Can I have Exhibit P2241 in e-court, and it's

Page 41182

 1     page 91 in both the English and the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   I want to turn now, Mr. Bajagic, to your meeting with

 3     President Karadzic in the early morning hours of 15 July.

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I understand my hour and a half is

 5     almost up.  I have two subjects I'd like to cover with the witness.  One

 6     is this meeting, and one is another meeting at the Bratunac Brigade, and

 7     I think it will probably take me another 45, 50 minutes or so.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Please try to conclude in half an hour, please,

10     Mr. Mitchell.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, you can see on the left-hand side of the screen this

13     is President Karadzic's appointment diary, the entry for 14 July 1995,

14     and you can see your name there twice; is that right?  The first entry

15     says, "Call Zvonko Bajagic," and the second entry says "Zvonko Bajagic"

16     with a time-code after it.  Can you see both of them?

17        A.   I can only see one of the entries at the bottom.

18        Q.   The "call Zvonko Bajagic" is four entries up from the bottom, and

19     the meet is the very last entry on the page.

20        A.   Yes.  Now I can see it.

21        Q.   Okay.  Now, earlier you agreed that, you know, when

22     President Karadzic wanted to see you it was normal for him to call you

23     and ask you to come up to Pale, and we've got evidence from one of

24     President Karadzic's secretaries about how -- how this diary worked, and

25     her statement is P4358.  At paragraph 33 she explains that the

Page 41183

 1     secretaries would schedule an activity for President Karadzic by putting

 2     a minus sign, and once that activity had occurred, that would convert the

 3     minus sign to a plus sign.  So we can see a plus sign next to the entry

 4     "call Zvonko Bajagic," which means that they scheduled a call and then

 5     the call was completed.  So isn't it true that President Karadzic called

 6     you and asked you to come up to Pale on the evening of 14 July?

 7        A.   I don't remember the date.  I did visit the president.  Was it on

 8     the 13th, 14th, 15th, I don't know.

 9        Q.   Right.  But putting aside the date --

10        A.   I think it is more likely that it was on the 14th.

11        Q.   Okay.  But my question was:  He called you, as it says in the

12     book -- or it indicates in the book he called you and asked you to come

13     up to Pale; right?

14        A.   I don't recall him calling me.  I know that I went to Pale.  I

15     went to see the president.

16        Q.   Okay.  And earlier I asked you about your official VRS car, the

17     Golf.  You took this car to see the president on that visit, didn't you?

18        A.   Well, I probably did.  I don't remember which car I took.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, shall we clarify this.  The diary

20     agenda we see before us is dated 14th of July, but when

21     Mr. Zvonko Bajagic met Mr. Karadzic was past midnight, so that's 15th,

22     early in the morning.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  The very early morning hours of 15 July.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So Mr. Bajagic's memory is correct.  Maybe it's

25     night of 14th.

Page 41184

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:

 4        Q.   Right.  I want to ask you about the length of this meeting,

 5     Mr. Bajagic.  In paragraph 36 of your statement, you say that you and

 6     President Karadzic just ran into each other in the hallway.  You had a

 7     short exchange and then he did not talk to me again, just passed me and

 8     went off.

 9             Now, that's not true, is it?  You met with the president, as it

10     says in his appointment book, for 50 minutes.

11        A.   I don't know if it was me saying that or that somebody

12     misrecorded that we came across each other in the hallway.  I recall that

13     we went into the office and had a short conversation.  As for what you

14     say that I was there for an hour, I probably was, because normally after

15     my conversation with the president, a friend and a relative of mine were

16     members of president's security detail.  So I would normally go and have

17     a cup of coffee or a shot of rakija with them, and I probably did stay on

18     a bit further talking to Batko Kovacevic and who else was there.

19        Q.   This is the president's appointment diary.  His secretary told

20     us, this is again page 30 -- paragraph 33 of her statement, P4358, that

21     the first number -- sorry, in the brackets you can see two numbers.  The

22     first number shows a time when the guest entered the president's office.

23     The second number is the time when the guest left the president's office.

24     So we can see you going into the president's office at 12.35, and you

25     exiting the president's office at 1.25; right?  That's 50 minutes.

Page 41185

 1        A.   Look, where the secretary's desk is is a connecting room.  There

 2     was a door there to one office and to two or three offices, perhaps, and

 3     it was in that other room that I continued socialising with my

 4     acquaintances, and so it was probably only after that second conversation

 5     that I went through the room where the secretary's desk was, and then she

 6     noted down that particular time as the time that I left the president's

 7     office.

 8        Q.   So the secretary --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.  Nothing is properly

10     reflected.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, if there's -- if there's a

12     substantive transcript correction --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let us hear it.  Let us hear from him.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness said that when you pass

16     the room which is in between, which is where the secretary's desk is,

17     when you enter the office of the president, that's where there is a

18     complex of room beyond, and that wasn't reflected.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Let's continue.

20             MR. MITCHELL:

21        Q.   So it's your evidence that the secretary of the president of the

22     republic got this wrong.  It was just a mistake in his appointment diary.

23        A.   The error is in the fact that you believe that I spent the entire

24     time with the president.  I wasn't.  I was there for a short time, but

25     then I was in another office with that other person that I mentioned.  I

Page 41186

 1     talked to him.  I was seated there, and these fellows there were offering

 2     refreshments.  So when I got out of that office, she must have recorded

 3     that time when I left one of the offices there.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bajagic, the secretaries testified indeed that

 5     during the time-frame noted here the president may have done something

 6     else, meeting something -- somebody else, receiving some telephone calls,

 7     but at this time-frame, half past 12.00 at midnight, there was no other

 8     guest.  It was only you.  Was it not correct?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know if there was anybody

10     else.  I was there, but I was there for a short time.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             MR. MITCHELL:

13        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, your -- your testimony today has given us a much

14     fuller picture of exactly who you'd been meeting with on the

15     13th of July, your knowledge of the Srebrenica prisoners, your knowledge

16     of the Kravica killings, your knowledge of the meeting between

17     General Mladic and Tomo Kovac, all of which you had when you met with

18     President Karadzic in the early morning hours of 15 July.  Now, I want to

19     ask you about that, but let me just put one more thing to you.  If I can

20     have 65 ter 25350 in e-court, page 43.

21             This is an interview with -- between the Office of the Prosecutor

22     and Tomo Kovac.  It's only in English.

23             Mr. Kovac is being asked about reporting to President Karadzic at

24     this time, and he was asked the question about halfway down the page:

25             "So let me get this straight.  Is the reason that you are saying

Page 41187

 1     that you did not discuss or protest to the president what was happening

 2     with the army killing people because you thought he already knew from all

 3     these other sources?"

 4             And then Tomo Kovac said:

 5             "This is crystal clear because he had Bajagic who knew

 6     everything.  He had Deronjic.  He received all the information that he

 7     needed from them.  He had the entire nomenclature there, people who knew

 8     everything and who controlled everything."

 9             Now, Mr. Bajagic, it's our position that Tomo Kovac isn't being a

10     hundred per cent truthful about his involvement in the murder of the

11     Srebrenica prisoners, but he was telling the truth about you; right?  You

12     did go up there and tell everything to President Karadzic that you knew

13     at the time, all of the significant developments that we talked about

14     earlier.

15        A.   First let me correct you.  You say that I knew everything.  A

16     moment ago you also said and made comments about the prisoners in

17     Srebrenica.  I didn't know that, and I didn't say that.  I said that I

18     saw them at the pitch in Nova Kasaba and that it was on the following day

19     that I heard about the liquidation in Kravica.  As for Tomo saying that I

20     knew everything and that I should be asked about everything and that I

21     and this other Deronjic are reporting about everything, well, it

22     depends -- well, he -- on what he was telling the president.  So me as an

23     infantryman with all the superiors above me, how would I be able to know

24     everything?  You say that I knew everything.  That is not correct.

25        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, I didn't say you knew everything.  I said you told

Page 41188

 1     the president everything that you knew at the time, and what you knew at

 2     the time included that lots of prisoners had been captured.  You saw them

 3     at Nova Kasaba, and you said that you knew about the Kravica killings on

 4     the 14th of July.  You met with the president in the early morning hours

 5     of 15 July.  So you knew about prisoners, and you knew about killings at

 6     the time; right?

 7        A.   Have a look at that date again.  I wasn't clear enough.  It was

 8     the 14th in the morning and not the 15th in the morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the night of 14th.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not in the evening.  It was the

11     dawn of the 14th, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to see the agenda again?  Yes.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  Yes.  I'd like to see the

14     date.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  It's P2241, page 91.

16        Q.   And if we need to do this, Mr. Bajagic, we'll look at your

17     vehicle log, too, if that would assist.

18             Isn't it true --

19        A.   First show me what I asked for and then later we can look at the

20     record.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Collapse the English this time.  The upper part is

22     13th of July.  13th of July ends at 22.10 or 22.15, and the bottom part,

23     last half, is 14th of July and starts from 6.00 in the evening and ends

24     at 1.35 or 25 the next day.  Now, do you follow, Mr. Bajagic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This happened on the morning of the

Page 41189

 1     14th and so based on what you're saying, this would have been the 15th.

 2     00.35 to 01.25.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  So 15th.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In my recollect it was on the 14th,

 5     in the morning.  The 14th, in the morning.  That's what I remember.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  But this agenda says it's the 15th morning.  Do you

 7     agree?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that it was late in the

11     evening on the 13th that I set out and that it happened on the morning of

12     the 14th.  That's how I remember.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.  What the witness said

14     probably wasn't [In English] "I remember."  It should rather be

15     translated "It is in my mind."

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  There's not much difference.

17             Would you like to show the vehicle log to the witness?

18             MR. MITCHELL:  We can look at the vehicle log, Mr. President.

19     It's 65 ter 25354.

20        Q.   We have the original here which we can show you, Mr. Bajagic, if

21     that would help.

22             And you'll see two entries there that I want you to focus on, one

23     on the 14th of July which says Vlasenica --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Could you wait until we have it.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, Mr. President.

Page 41190

 1        Q.   Let's start with the front page.  You can see your name on the

 2     front page; right?

 3        A.   Yes, yes.

 4        Q.   And we can see registration number P7105.  That's the same car

 5     that we were talking about earlier this morning that you were assigned in

 6     1992; right?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Okay.  If we go to the next page, you'll see two trips.  Now, you

 9     just told us that it was your recollection that you set out late in the

10     evening of the 13th.  Now, you'll agree that there's nothing --

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   -- on the 13th of July that mentions a trip to Pale; right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   But it does mention a trip to Srebrenica.

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And then we can see two entries:  One on the 14th that says

17     Vlasenica, Pal -- Vlasenica, Loko, and one on the 15th that says

18     Vlasenica, Milici, Pale, Vlasenica, Loko.  And one of these two trips has

19     been entered either on the late night of the 14th, the early morning of

20     the 15th and that is your trip to see the president; right?

21        A.   You see on this first travel order it says the 12th, one of

22     these.  It doesn't have the 13th.  And then the other one has the 13th,

23     Vlasenica, Srebrenica.  The 14th, Vlasenica, Pale.  This was enter into

24     the order.  But you see the number of kilometres.  From

25     me [as interpreted] to Pale it's 95 kilometres one way.  So if I had the

Page 41191

 1     intention of going to Pale on the 14th, and I didn't, then this is the

 2     number of kilometres that were travelled along a different route.  So

 3     this confirms it.

 4        Q.   Okay.  But you agree you did go and see the president in Pale,

 5     right, at some point?  So the trip actually happened.

 6        A.   Yes.  And to my recollection, it was the 13th in the evening and

 7     the night onto the 14th.

 8        Q.   Right.  But you agree the only two entries there -- there's 14th

 9     and 15th mention trips to Pale.  There's nothing on the 13th; right?

10        A.   Yes.  I can see that there is no mention of it.  But you see, the

11     15th, if there was also the intention to go to Pale, it says

12     130 kilometres, Pale, Vlasenica.  Two ways is 190 kilometres there and

13     back, only that, excluding any driving that I might have done on some of

14     the side roads.

15        Q.   Right.  So what you're saying now is to the best of your

16     recollection this happened on the 13th, right?  That's what you're saying

17     now.

18        A.   Yes.  Late in the evening.  Late.

19        Q.   Right.  Let me read you what you said in paragraph 36 of your

20     statement when you're talking about your trip to Srebrenica on the 13th

21     and you say:  I don't recall whether it was that day or the next day

22     after returning from Srebrenica that I went to Pale.  However, I think it

23     was the next day.  That's in your statement.

24        A.   Well, here it remains vague as well.  I don't remember if I was.

25     Did I?  Did I not?  I think it was the next day.  When I'm racking my

Page 41192

 1     brains I think that it was Wednesday evening.

 2        Q.   Right.  But there's nothing vague about the appointment diary, is

 3     there?  The president's appointment diary clearly says the last entry of

 4     the day, Zvonko Bajagic, 12.35 to 1.25 in the morning, 50 minutes; right?

 5        A.   I said what I think on the matter, and there's no need for you to

 6     ring me further on it.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, let me tell you our position on what happened at

 8     that meeting.  President Karadzic called you, as we see in the

 9     appointment diary, and he asked you to come up to Pale for a meeting.  So

10     you drove up to Pale, you met with the President for 50 minutes in the

11     middle of the night.  This meeting was so urgent it couldn't wait until

12     the morning.  It wasn't something you wanted to talk about over the

13     phone.  During this 50 minutes with the president, you talked to him

14     about all the significant developments that had been going on in the

15     last -- at least the last couple of days, the meeting with General Mladic

16     and Tomo Kovac at your house, your meetings with General Mladic,

17     Colonel Salapura, the prisoners you saw at Nova Kasaba, the killings that

18     had been going on at Kravica that you knew about by the morning of

19     15 July, and you went up there to tell him about the sentiment of the

20     people of Vlasenica, about all of these things that had been going on,

21     the fall of Srebrenica, the prisoners, the capture of those villains that

22     you told us about, the villains and criminals --

23        A.   Please.

24        Q.   Let me finish.

25        A.   Oh my dear.

Page 41193

 1        Q.   The capture of those villains and criminals that you told us

 2     about that had caused you so much misery over the last three years.

 3     These are the significant developments that you went up to talk to him

 4     about; right?

 5        A.   That's what you say as if you were there with me in the office.

 6     How should you know what I was saying there.  That's not true.  Don't

 7     tell me that I had a meeting with Salapura and the general.  I was in

 8     Srebrenica.  I came across them in front of that house, and I went into

 9     the house with them, had a look and then I went on my way.  I didn't have

10     a meeting either with Salapura or with Mladic in Srebrenica.  As for

11     President Radovan, I know full well what I told him, as if I was

12     Salapura, that's how you're treating me, and not Zvonko Bajagic.

13             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, I think my time's almost up.  There

14     is one other last area that's about the date of a meeting at the

15     Bratunac Brigade headquarters and about the credibility of Mr. Bajagic's

16     testimony in the Popovic case on that.  It's testimony that he gave about

17     a meeting related to Srebrenica.  It's exactly what he's testifying about

18     here, and I think his credibility on that issue is going to be relevant

19     to Your Honours determining the credibility of his evidence here today.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, if I could just add, we have to

21     leave some time for redirect.  It's taken a lot more time and it's been

22     relatively slow, so I think we have to consider the time that he's

23     already used and to make sure that Dr. Karadzic has an adequate time to

24     do redirect.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I was wondering whether that issue will be relevant

Page 41194

 1     to this case.  Can we not skip it?

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, we think -- it's our position it's

 3     a credibility issue in this case.  He came to testify about the date of a

 4     meeting on behalf of one of the accused in the Srebrenica operation.

 5     He's now come to testify about another meeting.  This time the issue

 6     isn't the date, it's the content of the meeting and so it's purely

 7     credibility, but given that he's testifying about a meeting in this

 8     period, I think it's important that Your Honours hear it.

 9                           [Trial Chamber confers]

10             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Mitchell, how much time would you want?  Could

11     you give us some idea at all?

12             MR. MITCHELL:  Your Honour, I sincerely hope it would be

13     15 minutes.

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  Fifteen minutes.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  I hope that would be all.

16             JUDGE BAIRD:  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  In the circumstances, we'll allow you to continue.

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

19        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, can you look at your statement, paragraphs 29 to 32,

20     where you describe a meeting at the Bratunac Brigade on -- that you say

21     took place on 11 July.  Now when you testified in the Popovic case you

22     were called by Vinko Pandurevic for the sole purpose of putting

23     Vinko Pandurevic at this meeting that both you and Pandurevic said

24     happened on 11 July; right?

25        A.   I was not at any meetings and I was not called by Pandurevic.

Page 41195

 1     Where did you get that information from?  I didn't say that.  In the

 2     evening on the 11th I went to the command of the Bratunac Brigade.

 3     That's what happened there.

 4        Q.   Let me stop you there.  You say the date was on the 11th; right?

 5        A.   In the evening on the 11th I was at the command of the

 6     Bratunac Brigade.

 7        Q.   Right.  And what you told the Popovic Trial Chamber is the reason

 8     why you recall that this meeting was on 11th July was because 11th July

 9     was a fasting day when you had to eat fish.  Your testimony was that on

10     12 July, it was a feast day where you ate meat, and you even talked about

11     in your testimony that the preparations for suckling pig and lamb that

12     you were going to serve on the 12th of July.  And so you said because you

13     served fish at the Bratunac Brigade, the meeting had to happened on the

14     11th of July.  Have I summarised that accurately?

15        A.   I took food to treat them in the evening.  It was a -- a lean

16     dinner.  That was on the evening of St. Peter's Day, and we were fasting.

17     St. Peter's Day was on the following day.  I don't know if it was

18     Wednesday or Friday.  I don't know but in our parts we fast on both

19     Wednesday and Friday.  So on the following day I served fish to those who

20     wanted fish.  At the same time, we grilled a lamb, and a suckling pig to

21     those who wanted to eat meat.

22        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, your testimony in the Popovic case was crystal

23     clear.  You served fish on the 11th and you served meat and the 12th, and

24     that's why you said the meeting was on the 11th.  It was the thing that

25     tied your recollection to the 11th, the serving of fish; right?

Page 41196

 1        A.   I was the one who served fish?  I was not the one who was served

 2     fish.  Colonel Kacanovic asked me if I could take dinner to the building

 3     of the brigade command.  He asked me if I had any surplus fish to take

 4     there.  He asked me if I needed a car, and I said yes, I do have surplus

 5     of food.  It was no fat food.  I came to the brigade command.  I spent

 6     there only a short period of time in the corridor.  I saw General Mladic

 7     as well as Krstic and Vinko Pandurevic and some other people whom I can't

 8     remember as I sit here today, and then I returned home.

 9        Q.   Okay.  But now you're saying you served fish on both days, the

10     11th and the 12th; right?

11        A.   Yes.  There was a lot of fish.  A friend from [indiscernible] had

12     brought a fish.  There was a lot of it.  There were people who had fish

13     even on the 12th, whereas I at the same time prepared some pork and some

14     lamb.  For example, Vladika Vasilje he didn't want to eat meat.  He stuck

15     to the fish.  That's as much as I can remember.

16        Q.   Okay.

17        A.   However, why does it matter to you whether they had fish or meat?

18     Why do you care?

19        Q.   Well, we've got your vehicle log up on the screen there.  You

20     would agree with me there's not a trip to Bratunac on either the 11th or

21     12th of July, is there?

22        A.   And where doesn't it say that?

23        Q.   Have a look at the vehicle log.

24        A.   Well, if it doesn't say so here, that doesn't necessarily mean

25     that I didn't go there.  This is not a yardstick by which you had to.

Page 41197

 1        Q.   So you just left this trip out of the vehicle log?

 2        A.   Well, if it's not here, that means I didn't enter that.

 3        Q.   Okay.  One final thing.  Now, you've told us that you saw

 4     Vinko Pandurevic.  Are you absolutely certain that you saw

 5     Vinko Pandurevic at that meeting?  Is that your testimony today?

 6        A.   I am not saying that that was a meeting.  They were all there at

 7     the meeting.  Most probably they had a meeting, but I saw Vinko.  I

 8     claimed that then.  I claim it still.  I told you that Vinko is hard to

 9     miss wherever he appears.  He is a guy from Romanija, but there is nobody

10     else on Mount Romanija who is freckled and has fiar hair.  He is big, he

11     is sturdy, but he is the only fair-haired person with freckles from Mount

12     Romanija.  Actually, he is more red haired than fair haired.

13        Q.   Okay.  My point simply was you saw Vinko Pandurevic that night.

14     You're absolutely certain?

15        A.   I confirm this to you for the third time.

16        Q.   Okay.

17             MR. MITCHELL:  Let's look at 65 ter 25280.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Do you tender that vehicle log?

19             MR. MITCHELL:  Yes, please Mr. President.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit it.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6443, Your Honours.

22             MR. MITCHELL:

23        Q.   What I'm bringing up here, Mr. Bajagic, is your testimony in the

24     Kos case in the state court in 2011.  It's only in English so I'll have

25     to read it to you.  If we can go to page 2 we see that you took an oath

Page 41198

 1     to speak the whole truth and not conceal anything that's known to you.

 2     And on page 1 the Judge specifically cautioned you that you mustn't

 3     withhold anything because perjury constitute a criminal offence.  If we

 4     go to page 15 and the second half of the page one of the lawyers says to

 5     you:  The night before St. Peter's Day when you came to the command of

 6     the Bratunac Brigade who did you -- you speak to about who you saw there.

 7     And you said apart from Ratko Mladic you saw Radislav Krstic and

 8     Vinko Pandurevic and you say:  That I saw Vinko?  The lawyer says:  Yes.

 9     On the 11th?  And the lawyer says to you:  On the 12th I think or the

10     11th.  And you say, your first answer:  I didn't see Vinko on the 11th.

11     Now, if we go over the page the Defence lawyer shows you your statement

12     from the Popovic case and says:  Let me refresh your recollection and

13     shows you the statement, and then in line 15 you say:  On the 11th in the

14     evening hours I can't recall, and then line 20 you say I either made a

15     mistake and said he was not there but I think he wasn't there.

16             So today you're absolutely certain that he was there.  Two years

17     ago he wasn't there, "I don't recall," and, "I don't think he was there."

18        A.   No.  There was a confusion there.  They were asking me about the

19     12th, whether I saw Vinko on the 12th, and I didn't see him on the 12th.

20     There may be a confusion with the dates.  And in the evening on the 11th

21     I did see Vinko.  I did not see him only the 12th.  There must be a

22     mistake there.

23        Q.   Can we go back just one page.  Mr. Bajagic, your first answer,

24     the very first answer you gave, there's no confusion about the 12th,

25     these are your words:  I didn't see Vinko on the 11th.  Crystal clear.

Page 41199

 1        A.   If I said that, I made a mistake.  I swore before God more than I

 2     did before you.  I saw him on the 11th.  They asked me about the 12th,

 3     whether I saw Vinko on the 12th, and I said I did not.  I didn't go to

 4     Srebrenica on the 12th.  That whole day was my holiday.  From that

 5     morning on the 12th to that evening on the 12th which was St. Peter's Day

 6     I had guests.  So I did see Vinko on the 11th, but I didn't see him on

 7     the 12th.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  Nothing further, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  If Mr. Bajagic provides

11     as short answers to me as he did to the Prosecutor, I believe that I will

12     be able to finish today.

13                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] While we're talking about this, tell the

15     Trial Chamber would a host ever leave his home on his own religious

16     holiday?

17        A.   I've never heard of anybody leaving his home on his religious

18     holiday, on his main religious holiday.  I didn't do that ever, nor did I

19     ever hear of anybody else who did it.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at P6443.  And the

21     document that we saw before the last one.  The one before last.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Could you please tell us what is the first date on this document?

24        A.   The 8th of June.

25        Q.   And can we now look at the other page?  I believe that it was

Page 41200

 1     either the next page or page 4.  What page was that?  What page did we

 2     see before?  Can the Serbian version be zoomed in?  What's the first date

 3     that appears here?

 4        A.   The 22nd of July, and then the 22nd of June, and then this is

 5     crossed out.  The 22nd of June is crossed out, and what follows is the

 6     23rd of July.

 7        Q.   Is this the month of June or the month of July in the first row?

 8        A.   It's the month of June.  In one place 6 has been altered into 7,

 9     I believe, and again there -- there are -- there is the month of June

10     three times.

11        Q.   When you arrived in Pale, did you arrive only to see me or did

12     you have any other things to do in Pale?  Did you visit anybody else?

13        A.   No, I didn't come to Pale only because of you.  I didn't only

14     come to visit you.

15        Q.   Thank you.  During your visit to my office, did we sit down?  Did

16     we chat sitting down?

17        A.   It was a very brief encounter.  I don't know whether you remember

18     what I asked you on that occasion.  I asked you about the transport of

19     the civilian population.

20        Q.   Did we discuss anything else?

21        A.   No, we did not.

22        Q.   At that point in time did you know what had happened in Kravica?

23        A.   No, I only learnt about that the following day.

24        Q.   Did you learn that on the following day after you had visited me

25     or after that had happened?

Page 41201

 1        A.   One day after I visited you.  After I visited you, the following

 2     day I learnt about Kravica.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  On page 59 you were interrupted where you were saying

 4     that from 20th April to June 1994 people were killed.  Can you tell in

 5     one sentence who was killed?

 6        A.   The most renowned Serbian intellectuals, teachers, one or two men

 7     from every village, and nine priests from the diocese, and also the Jews

 8     but one were killed.  My grandfather himself was killed on the Easter of

 9     that year.

10        Q.   Who killed him?

11        A.   Those people will -- killed by Muslims from Vlasenica.  At the

12     top of that organisation was Rasim Begovic who sported a Karadjordje star

13     because he was a volunteer at Salon.  After 1945 he was convicted and

14     executed in Vlasenica, and that execution was carried out by

15     Med Oberga [phoen] who killed him with a mullet.  Perhaps you don't know

16     that his grandchild, Jusuf Dautovic, who was an engineer, he was the head

17     of the HOS.  We didn't know that and we were all surprised to learn that

18     there was an HOS organisation in a place where there -- where there were

19     no Croats or Catholics.  We found on his body a list of those Serbs who

20     had to be killed on Easter Friday.  The chief at the time,

21     Rade Bjelanovic, showed me that and I have never heard that anybody has

22     mentioned this document.  It seems that nobody's interested in that.

23     There were 200 of us on that list.  I was number 3.  Number 1 was

24     Dr. Milorad Lukic, and number 2 was priest Milorad Golijan.  I was number

25     3 on at that list.

Page 41202

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us when that list was found on the grandson

 2     of that person who was the protagonist of 1941?

 3        A.   It was on the 21st or the 22nd of April, 1992.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  The event when somebody was impaled and grilled he

 5     was your employee, I believe.  Was that something that you perceived as a

 6     drastic moment?

 7        A.   Mr. President, everybody who has a heart and soul has to feel

 8     something.  They were not human beings.  They were beasts those people

 9     who could do that.

10             JUDGE KWON:  How -- how does it arise from the cross of

11     Mr. Mitchell?  What's the relevance?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The relevance is based on

13     Mr. Mitchell's thesis about drastic events that are missing from the

14     statement.  And now my next question to the gentleman would be to --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Move on to another topic, please.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Bajagic, were you asked questions and providing answers or

19     did you yourself suggest what the substance of your statement should be?

20     If anybody should ask you about something, would your -- would you be

21     answering in response to that or would you volunteer information?

22        A.   Would you repeat your question?

23        Q.   Did you yourself formulate the statement or did you answer

24     questions?

25        A.   I was answering questions.  I wasn't writing it.

Page 41203

 1        Q.   And unless somebody puts a question to you on a subject, would

 2     you yourself suddenly -- would it come to your mind to start speaking

 3     about that topic?

 4        A.   Well, I was speaking about matters that I was being asked about.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  A question was put to you about whether you had said

 6     anything to the Defence.  How many Defence teams did you talk to?

 7        A.   Well, I spoke to the Defence team in the Popovic case and to

 8     the -- your Defence team.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Who did you testify for in Bosnia?  Was it for the

10     Defence or --

11        A.   Well, it was for Kos.  It was Dusko Tomic, the lawyer who placed

12     me on the witness list without even consulting me.  I merely received a

13     summons.

14        Q.   It was also for the Defence; right?

15        A.   Well, I suppose so, for this person Kos.  He was in that case.

16     He even wanted to extend this, but the lady judge wouldn't agree.  He was

17     shifting some blame onto you and to a bishop, and he was trying to add

18     something, but the president of the chamber interrupted him and did not

19     allow him to speak on this.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us who was it from my Defence team who

21     spoke to you?

22        A.   Luka from Bratunac.  What's his last name.  I can't remember.

23        Q.   Thank you.  When you arrived in The Hague for the proofing, did

24     you speak about this meeting with Mladic and Kovac on the 12th and the

25     13th?  When was it?

Page 41204

 1        A.   Sorry, who did I speak to about it?

 2        Q.   To my Defence team.  Did you speak to him about it?  Did you tell

 3     them this?

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second.  Mr. Bajagic, if you

 6     could excuse yourself for a moment.  We have something to discuss in your

 7     absence.

 8                           [The witness stands down]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

10             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, that was inexcusable, the

11     attempting to suggest to the witness that the meeting with Mladic and

12     Kovac happened on the 12th or the 13th.  It's crystal clear that that

13     meeting happened in the late afternoon of 13th July.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I said on the 12th or the 13th.  I

15     wasn't sure about it.  But that's not the point when the meeting was.

16     Rather, who did he tell this to without it having ended up in the

17     statement.

18             MR. MITCHELL:  Well, Mr. President, we -- first thing, we've got

19     a draft statement.  The statement had additional information added to it

20     and Mr. Bajagic arrived here.  So he's clearly met with people other than

21     Luka in Bratunac.  Second thing is the Defence had, was disclosed to them

22     the transcripts in the Kos case and just -- it was either last week or

23     the week before we got the Defence statement from the Kos case and

24     disclosed it which contains the same information.  It's a short,

25     basically a one-page statement which talks about Nova Kasaba, the meeting

Page 41205

 1     between Mladic and Kovac.  It doesn't mention his meeting with Mladic and

 2     Salapura, but it's got the two things, Nova Kasaba, lots of prisoners.

 3     It's got the Mladic-Kovac meeting.  They've got both the transcript and a

 4     statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Shall we continue then?  We'll bring in

 6     the witness.

 7                           [The witness takes the stand]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can we now look at the intercept that was shown to you, and I

12     think it was D1653.

13             Mr. Bajagic, can you tell the Chamber what sort of a position the

14     SDS had vis-a-vis the response to the call-up, and which was that of the

15     SDA in respect of Vlasenica?

16        A.   Well, the response to the call-up was multi-ethnic.  The Muslims

17     responded to it as well.  They were there for a couple of days, and then

18     one night they all left, and we realised that they had been ordered by

19     the SDA to withdraw.  Later on they withdrew all the soldiers from the

20     Yugoslav Army as well.  They all went home.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did you in the SDS in Vlasenica have your

22     paramilitary formations?

23        A.   No, we didn't have that.  The SDA did.  We did not.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the next page.  Can you tell the Chamber

25     who is General Djurdjevac?

Page 41206

 1        A.   He was the commander of the Sarajevo Corps.  Since the military

 2     post of Han Pijesak came under the command of the Sarajevo Corps, we

 3     expressed our wish for General Djurdjevac to join us for this occasion,

 4     to spend the day with us there.  He was a general of the

 5     Yugoslav People's Army at the time.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Can we have the two next pages.  You were shown that

 7     large paragraph.  That was page 4.  Can you have a look there.  My

 8     intervention, which is quite long, where I suggest that Biljana Plavsic

 9     should come because she's a woman and a representative of the official

10     authority.  Can you tell us did the party want to interfere?  Did it want

11     to impose itself on military matters either during the JNA or later the

12     VRS?

13        A.   No.  The party did not meddle.  It did not interfere with the

14     affairs of the army.  However, we did want you to come.  It was our

15     special wish.  And the army expressed that wish as well.  Everybody was

16     telling me it would really be a good thing if Radovan came, because

17     mobilisation was organised very swiftly out of fear, and as a result the

18     people in the area felt safe, that 1941 would not happen all over again

19     simply because they had that unit there.

20        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Bajagic, for coming here to testify.  I have no

21     further questions.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, just one thing.  Perhaps the

24     witness should take his headphones off for a moment.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 41207

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Mr. President, at page 53 today, lines 20 to 23,

 2     it was crystal clear that Mr. Bajagic said that he knew about the

 3     killings at Kravica the following day.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I'm coming to that.  Could you leave it there?  I

 5     was about to raise that issue.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  Oh, my apologies.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  You can come back after I ask some supplemental

 8     questions if I do not deal with it.

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bajagic.  Body language is universal.

11                           Questioned by the Court:

12             JUDGE KWON:  I wanted to be clear about what you said.  We talked

13     about the killing at the Kravica warehouse.  You remember that.  And you

14     testified that you came to know about the killing on the next day.

15        A.   Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  So we know now the killing took place on the

17     13th of July, so we can conclude, can't we, that you came to know about

18     the killing on the 14th?

19        A.   14th or the 15th.  I'm not sure.

20             JUDGE KWON:  You unequivocally say that on the following day you

21     came to know -- you heard about the killing the following day.  Do you

22     remember?

23        A.   Well, yes, the next day.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So --

25        A.   Yes.

Page 41208

 1             JUDGE KWON:  If the time when you met Mr. Karadzic was on the

 2     night, late night of 14th, we can conclude that you knew about or you

 3     heard about the Kravica warehouse killing at that time, can't we?

 4        A.   Well, that's what you conclude.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we take a look at the agenda again.  Can you

 6     upload P2242.  Mr. Karadzic's secretary's agenda.

 7             My understanding is we had a hard book, a hard copy of it, but we

 8     shall do with the e-court.  It's page 91, but shall we begin with

 9     page 89.  We'll just deal with the B/C/S version, collapsing the English

10     version.  Can you zoom in further.

11             So this is 10th of July.  Do you see that, Mr. Bajagic?

12        A.   I can see that.

13             JUDGE KWON:  During the course of proceeding Dr. Karadzic said

14     his biorhythm, he's an afternoon person.  His agenda starts at 2.00 in

15     the afternoon on the 10th of July and ends late night, almost 3.00 the

16     next morning.  Do you follow?

17        A.   Yes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So this is 10th of July.  Can you we see the next

19     page.  So up -- so we can conclude that upper part is now 12th of July.

20     It starts at 2.00 in the afternoon and ends at 10.55 at night.  Or

21     11th of July.  I'm sorry.  And then 12th of July starts at 1.00 - and

22     shall we go down - and concludes at 6.00 in the -- in the evening.

23     That's the 12th.  Okay?  Shall we go back to the next page.

24             Now we come to the 13th.  It starts at 4.25 and ends at 22.15,

25     10.15.  And the bottom part relates to 14th of July, which starts at 6.00

Page 41209

 1     and ends 1.45 or 25 next -- the next morning, which is 15th, early in the

 2     morning, or night of 14th.  Do you agree?

 3        A.   Well, according to the records here, I can see that that's the

 4     case.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So I'd like to ask you once again for the last time,

 6     according to the agenda -- to this agenda, it was night of 14th that you

 7     met Mr. Karadzic.

 8        A.   What lingers in my memory is that it was between the 13th and the

 9     14th, and it does read the 14th here, and I said it was very short.

10     Radovan was a bit nervous.  When I mentioned the people, who was moving

11     out, what they were doing, he told me, Zvonko, mind your own business and

12     that is the extent of it.  He said, What do you care.  And so I stayed on

13     with these fellows having a drink with them.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  I have one final question for you.  When you

15     talked about the civilian population or prisoners from Srebrenica,

16     civilian population, you said this, it's page 52 of today's transcript:

17              "That's what I was sorry about.  I was sorry that long-suffering

18     people still suffered.  I could see them passing through in those lorries

19     and in those buses by my house.  Since I knew Mr. Karadzic as a

20     God-fearing and honest person, I asked him about the destiny of those

21     people.  I asked him, 'Mr. President, what will be the lot of these

22     people?  Where are they being taken to?  What is going to happen to

23     them?'"

24             I take it that those questions were questions you put to the

25     president, Mr. Karadzic, when you met at Pale.  Am I correct in so

Page 41210

 1     understanding?

 2        A.   Yes.  That's the only thing I asked him.  It was very short, he

 3     was nervous, and did not share any comments with me.  I went out of the

 4     office and sat there with those fellows.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  You pre-empted my question.  So what was

 6     the -- Mr. Karadzic's answer to your question?

 7        A.   He told me that I should mind my own business, that I should take

 8     care of my own.  He said, Mind your own business, Puska.  That's my

 9     nickname.  And I said, Fine, and went out.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Bajagic.  Unless --

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellency, may I?  One question

12     only, a brief question.

13                           Further re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

14        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Bajagic, what did you hear had happened in

15     Kravica?  Now, I'm not asking when you heard but what was it that you

16     heard, what had happened?  What was the information that reached you?

17        A.   Information spread to the effect that some of those prisoners had

18     seized submachine-gun from one of the, I suppose, guards there and then

19     the police executed them.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, the questions about

21     the hours and the various times, it doesn't mean that I arrived at 1800

22     hours.  You see line 4.11, et cetera --

23             JUDGE KWON:  You're not giving evidence now.  You will have ample

24     opportunity for you to clarify these things.  Are you done with

25     Mr. Bajagic?

Page 41211

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me Mr. President.  Just before the witness

 2     leaves, if there's any doubt, it seems clear to me, but I think it's very

 3     important that there be no doubt.  If anyone wishes to put the question

 4     to him whether there was any discussion between him and Dr. Karadzic

 5     about what had happened at the Kravica warehouse this would be a good

 6     time otherwise I think the point is very clear that -- what the witness

 7     has answer about that but ...

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Mitchell, do you have any objection to that?

 9             MR. MITCHELL:  If they want to put the question, no objection.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Can you answer the question, Mr. Bajagic?

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness repeat his answer.

12             JUDGE KWON:  The interpreters didn't hear you.  Could you repeat

13     it?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I can answer.  Was that the

15     question?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And what is the question I need to

18     answer?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.  Could you ask the witness.

20                           Examination by Mr. Robinson:

21        Q.   Yes.  Was there any discussion between you and Mr. Karadzic about

22     what had happened at the Kravica warehouse when you saw him that late

23     night in Pale?

24        A.   No.  No, nothing.

25             JUDGE KWON:  That concludes your evidence, Mr. Bajagic.  On

Page 41212

 1     behalf of the Chamber, I'd like to thank you for coming to The Hague to

 2     give it.  Now you're free to go.  But we'll rise all together.  We'll

 3     continue tomorrow at 11.00.  The hearing is adjourned.

 4                           [The witness withdrew]

 5                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.01 p.m.,

 6                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 11th day

 7                           of July, 2013, at 11.00 a.m.