Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 42272

 1                           Wednesday, 31 July 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.00 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May I

 9     introduce Mr. Bradley Sorrentino who's been with my team since June from

10     the University of San Diego, Thomas Jefferson Law School.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Good morning, Your Honours.

14                           WITNESS:  MILOMIR SAVCIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Nicholls: [Continued]

17        Q.   Let's continue, General.  First, just to follow-up on something

18     you said yesterday.  It's not about your statement, it's about

19     General Krstic, talking about -- well, let me just read back what you

20     said at page 76.

21             "And the first information and intimations of these events I

22     started learning after the statements of General Krstic that was

23     disclosed in certain media in Bosnia-Herzegovina; however, I wish to note

24     there as well that in the statement of General Krstic's the role of the

25     protection regiment in these events was presented in a completely wrong

Page 42273

 1     and erroneous manner.  So even then I did not know the real truth about

 2     these events."

 3             And what I want to do is read you a couple parts of

 4     General Krstic's testimony that I think you were referring to.  This is

 5     his testimony in his Defence at 6330 is the page.  General Krstic said --

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, is there a 65 ter number for that?

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yeah, it's 24242, excuse me, e-court page 467.

 8             And I'll keep it short.

 9        Q.   He said:

10             "That is to say, Lieutenant-Colonel Popovic when he returned from

11     the area of Srebrenica and Bratunac confided in Major Golic," and he's

12     talking about the executions.

13             And he continues at line 16:

14             "Later on the 12th and 13th he had taken part and had been in

15     charge of some soldiers and units of the 65th Protection Regiment,"

16     speaking about Popovic, "and the 10th Detachment in the liquidation of

17     prisoners in Kravica and the village of Lazete, the village of Laze in

18     the vicinity of Bratunac."

19             Is that something you would say is just completely not true, that

20     the 65th Protection Regiment soldiers took part in those liquidations?

21        A.   Yes, I state with full responsibility that this is completely

22     made up.

23        Q.   All right.  So from your knowledge, that's perjury by

24     General Krstic?  That was under oath.

25        A.   I don't know if he stated that under oath, but I

Page 42274

 1     can't [as interpreted] say that this is absolutely untrue.

 2        Q.   All right.  Let me read you one other part.  This is at e-court

 3     page 471, his testimony at page 6334, General Krstic again:

 4             "The very fact that the 65th Protection Motorised Regiment took

 5     part in capturing members of the 28th Division, that they handed them

 6     over to their superior, and that was General Mladic, and that later from

 7     that protective regiment soldiers were selected to execute prisoners of

 8     war is sufficiently eloquent evidence of the responsibility of the

 9     commander of the military police of the 65th Protection Regiment,

10     Malinic."

11             Would you say that is also a completely false statement by

12     General Krstic?

13        A.   Completely false, and I'm convinced that you have evidence to

14     disprove this.

15        Q.   All right.  Did you know --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Please continue.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  I think Mr. Karadzic is intervening.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I interrupt, although I don't want

20     to.  In line 24 of page 2 I see that the witness is recorded as saying "I

21     can't say," however he said "I can say."  That's line 24 of the

22     provisional transcript.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's duly noted.  Thank you.

24             Please continue.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

Page 42275

 1        Q.   Now, did you know that President Karadzic is trying to introduce

 2     this transcript into evidence for the truth of its content,

 3     General Krstic's testimony?

 4        A.   I don't know if it makes sense to introduce the entire

 5     transcript, maybe parts of it.  But I was speaking about those parts of

 6     the statement that relate to the role of the protection regiment in

 7     General Krstic's statement.  That part is completely made up.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Well, let's go back to DutchBat just a little bit

 9     more of what we were talking about yesterday, and the -- their detention

10     at Nova Kasaba.  You said when we were finishing yesterday that it was a

11     different unit you knew that had stopped and detained them.  Let me tell

12     you what the evidence in this case is.  This is the testimony of

13     Mr. Egbers at page 2759 of his transcript, e-court page 37, talking about

14     where they were stopped, speaking of Mr. Malinic.

15             "Q. And did he identify himself as being in charge of the

16     roadblock?

17             "A. He identified himself as being in charge of the headquarters

18     and the things that happened on the road with his soldiers.  I was

19     stopped by his soldiers, yes."

20             So Malinic explained to DutchBat that it was his soldiers who

21     stopped them, not some unnamed Drina Corps unit; right?

22        A.   I'm afraid that there were some inaccuracies even yesterday in

23     connection with this unit.  According to the information I received from

24     Malinic, they arrived at the school and the barracks without being

25     stopped and without being taken to the barracks.  They tried to obtain

Page 42276

 1     information about the information -- about the situation in the direction

 2     of Kasaba-Konjevic Polje-Srebrenica.  They wanted to know how safe that

 3     road was.  Malinic was unable to give a security estimate and they

 4     decided to set off for Srebrenica.  As soon as they reached the

 5     road - and I was told that they were in three vehicles at that moment - a

 6     group of soldiers, of whom we later learned that they were from the

 7     command of the Drina Corps, intercepted them and stole one vehicle from

 8     them.  And with the remaining two vehicles, they returned to the school.

 9     I have no information to the effect that Malinic blocked the road, at

10     least he never told me about it, that he stopped the vehicles and made

11     them go elsewhere.  So the first time around they came of their own

12     accord to get information, then they left.  They were robbed of their

13     vehicle and they returned to the school where they stayed for another day

14     or night or however long they stayed.  Neither their weapons nor their

15     means of communication were taken away from them.  So there can be no

16     mention of forcible detainment.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 6 it says that the vehicle

19     was stolen, whereas it was confiscated.  And a little further down it

20     says "robbed," however it should be "confiscated" again.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

22             Shall we continue.

23             MR. NICHOLLS:

24        Q.   Now, on the morning of the 13th of July on your second call with

25     Major Malinic, when you discussed the prisoners, let me read out part of

Page 42277

 1     your testimony from the Popovic trial.  This was at 15259.

 2             "Q. When you spoke to Major Malinic, did he make a request for

 3     reinforcements or help in controlling the prisoners?"

 4             Your answer:

 5             "Of course he did because he said there were many of them.  I

 6     don't remember him giving me a figure.  It's difficult to make an

 7     assessment.  It later turned out and we reached a figure of 1200 people.

 8     But then all he was saying was:  I have many of them, et cetera."

 9             Do you stand by that testimony, 1200 people were taken prisoner?

10        A.   During the day he mentioned that figure to me.  From the region

11     of Borike I wasn't [realtime transcript read in error "was"] able to see

12     for myself or come up with an estimate of my own.

13        Q.   Thank you.  You answered the question.  The question was what you

14     figured out.

15             Okay, let me read back another part of your testimony in the

16     Popovic trial.  You told the Trial Chamber in that case that you knew all

17     seven of the accused, and you were asked:

18             "And you respect General Miletic; right?"

19             This is at T15259.  And your answer was, at T15261:

20             "I respect all of them.  They are my comrades in arms and I have

21     great respect for all of them."

22             And that's true; right?  Vujadin Popovic, Ljubisa Beara,

23     Borovcanin, the others in that case were your comrades in arms?

24        A.   They are my comrades in arms and some of them my friends.  That's

25     what I said.

Page 42278

 1        Q.   And you have great -- "great respect for them," right, that's

 2     what you testified to?

 3        A.   That is correct.

 4        Q.   And I guess that also goes for General Tolimir who hadn't been

 5     put on trial at that point?

 6        A.   Absolutely.

 7             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, but really.  In line

10     10 it says "I was able," whereas the witness said "I was not able."  Page

11     6, line 10.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             That seems to make sense.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's now look at some intercepts that I think you've seen

16     before and you're aware of from the 13th of July when Malinic that day

17     had around 1200 men in his custody.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have D02204, please.

19        Q.   This is an intercept between persons identified as Beara, Zoka,

20     and Lucic speaking at different times.  It's at 10.09 a.m. and Beara

21     says:

22             "Hello Signor Lucic.  How are you?"

23             And then he says:

24             "Do you hear me?  Do you know that 400 balijas have shown up in

25     Konjevic Polje?

Page 42279

 1             "Lucic:  I know.  And they've been rounded up and disarmed,

 2     everything.

 3             Beara -- and then Beara:

 4             "Excellent!"

 5             A little further down Beara says:

 6             "Yes, you can also those 20 something so the forces are not

 7     dispersed.  Shove them all on the playground, who gives a fuck about

 8     them?"

 9             Further down he says:

10             "Line them up in four to five rows" --

11             THE ACCUSED:  Could Serbian page be turned.  Sorry.  Thank you.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:

13        Q.   And then probably the next page in Serbian.

14             Beara says:

15             "Hi, Zoka."

16             Beara says:

17             "What's new?"

18             And then it continues.  You've seen this intercept before; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   This is Beara talking to Zoran Malinic, Zoka, and Malinic's

21     deputy, Lucic, right, about the prisoners at Nova Kasaba?

22        A.   Correct.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could we go to another intercept now, P04670.  This

24     is again 13 July at 1400 hours.  And just very quickly, it kind of

25     matches what we were just discussing about 1200 prisoners being there.

Page 42280

 1     There's talk of:

 2             "I have more than a thousand."

 3             Y says again:

 4             "More than a thousand.

 5             "Where are they?

 6             "They are down there at the football stadium."

 7             And if we go to the next page probably in the Serbian, yeah, we

 8     see towards the bottom, the top on your page:

 9             "Fuck, I don't know whether to give these to them.

10             "To whom?

11             "To Zoka and the other one."

12             And then:

13             "Call Mico up there."

14             Same question simply:  This is about the prisoners on the field?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   Could we go to P05380, 16.02 hours.  Very simply again, now it's

17     1500 at the stadium at Kasaba, so the numbers have gone up a little.  It

18     says:

19             "Where Malinic's unit is."

20             Same topic; right?

21        A.   The topic could be the same, but I don't know who the

22     participants are or where they got this information from.

23        Q.   No.  But they're talking about Malinic's unit and 1500 gathered

24     at the stadium, right, and it says "at the stadium in Kasaba," right?

25        A.   Obviously they're talking about that, but I have no idea who is

Page 42281

 1     talking.

 2        Q.   Good.  Thank you.  I didn't ask you that, so don't worry about

 3     the questions I don't ask you.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  P05380, please -- sorry.  P04945.

 5        Q.   Same day, now it's 1730, so it's a bit later.  And the

 6     participants, X and Y, X says:

 7             "Is it possible for us to send about ten buses from Bijeljina?"

 8             Y says:

 9             "Well, tell them right away to come, there's about 6.000 of them

10     now."

11             X:

12             "Of military age?"

13             Y:

14             "Shut up, don't repeat."

15             And then a little further down Y says:

16             "I have three points, fuck it."

17             Skipping down a bit.  I think we need to go to the next page in

18     the Serbian, please.

19             "At each point there are roughly 1500 - 2.000."

20             And then further down it says:

21             "Have them report in Kasaba to the last -- have them report to

22     the stadium."

23             So again at this point the participants are talking, not just at

24     Nova Kasaba but about a total of 6.000 prisoners in the custody of the

25     VRS; right?

Page 42282

 1        A.   The figure of 6.000 is mentioned here.  Where these locations

 2     are, I really don't know.  It's probably about prisoners of war.

 3        Q.   Yeah, but having been Zoran Malinic's superior and having been

 4     investigator on this case since 2009, you'll know that there were

 5     prisoner collection points that day at Sandici, Konjevic Polje, and

 6     Nova Kasaba, don't you?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P04671.

 9        Q.   This is going back in time a bit to another intercept.  This is

10     one you've seen before, sir, it's at 1405 the same day.  X and Y.

11             X:

12             "Where is that?"

13             Y:

14             "Here at the football-pitch?"

15             X:

16             "Is it visible?

17             Y:

18             "Fuck, it is."

19             X:

20             "Brother, don't take anyone.  I'll send you an urgent telegram

21     now, don't take anyone," something "/put out of sight/" something, "a

22     little.  I'll send you the telegram now and explain it to you."

23             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could we go to the next page in the Serbian.

24             "Go ahead.

25             "Secure it, well and you'll get it now in the telegram.

Page 42283

 1             Y:

 2             "Fine."

 3             X:

 4             "Cheers."

 5             "I will do nothing before that.

 6             X:

 7             "Nothing."

 8             This is 1405 on the 13th, discussing a telegram that's going to

 9     come about the football-pitch, and it says:

10             "I will do nothing before that.

11             "Nothing."

12             And we already read right at the beginning of the

13     cross-examination how in the 65th Protection Regiment nothing was done

14     without a command, without an order.  So we've got here at the

15     football-pitch, send you a telegram now.  This is you speaking with

16     Zoran Malinic, isn't it, about a telegram that's going to be sent?

17        A.   I spoke to Zoran Malinic a number of times on that day mostly

18     about prisoners of war and about UNPROFOR members.

19        Q.   And about sending a telegram with instructions?

20        A.   I don't recall, especially bearing in mind that the alleged

21     telegram cannot reach Malinic urgently for technical reasons, and I

22     cannot convey information to him in a timely manner.  The telegram would

23     have to travel through the Rogatica brigade to the Main Staff and from

24     the Main Staff to Nova Kasaba by courier.  That would have taken quite

25     some time, and if it was about anything urgent, he would have taken the

Page 42284

 1     necessary measures too late.

 2             Finally, in later contacts with Malinic, I learned that he never

 3     received any telegram from me about the treatment of prisoners of war.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Well, we'll go over quite a lot of that in a minute.  You

 5     say you don't recall, especially bearing in mind -- now the -- without

 6     getting into the details, that telegram wouldn't have to be couriered

 7     from the Main Staff to Nova Kasaba.  It could have gone right to the

 8     Bratunac Brigade, couldn't it, and then have been couriered from there or

 9     to the communications facilities at Konjevic Polje.  There was testimony

10     that an intercept -- an operator, I believe, was working for the -- at

11     Konjevic Polje -- or it could have gone to the 5th Engineering Unit which

12     was just nearby or to the police headquarters at Nova Kasaba.  Are you

13     saying that the whole time that the military police battalion was headed

14     and headquartered at Nova Kasaba, that they could only receive

15     information by courier?

16        A.   Yes, that's what I'm saying, either by radio, over a radio relay

17     communication, but a telegram had to go by courier from the Main Staff to

18     the battalion.

19        Q.   And how long does it take to go from Crna Rijeka to Nova Kasaba?

20        A.   Let's see, that's 20, 30, 45 to 50 kilometres.  It would have

21     taken about an hour in a car, taking into consideration that the road

22     from Crna Rijeka to Han Pijesak is in bad condition.

23        Q.   So your --

24        A.   Up to an hour.

25        Q.   So your truthful testimony is that any time a telegram with

Page 42285

 1     something that shouldn't be said over the radio needed to reach the

 2     65th Protection Regiment's military police battalion, it would take an

 3     hour and come from the Main Staff by hand?  That was the only way to

 4     reach them?  That's what you're telling us?

 5        A.   In that way, in terms of encrypted communication -- well, it's

 6     possible that the commander of the Drina Corps could have been used, but

 7     I'm not sure that that would have been shorter.

 8        Q.   Let's look at P00168.  This is a document you've seen many times.

 9        A.   That's right.

10        Q.   And you discuss it in your statement.  It's headed:  "Procedure

11     for the Treatment of War Prisoners," Command of the Main Staff,

12     commander, Mladic, for his information; to the assistant commander for

13     morale, Gvero, for his information; commander of the military police

14     battalion, 65th, Zoran Malinic; order.  And it says at the top "Borike at

15     1400 hours.

16             "There are over" -- just about the time we saw that intercept

17     that you said you couldn't recall if you sent a telegram.

18             "There are over 1.000 members of the former 28 Division of the

19     so-called BH army captured in the area of Dusanovo (Kasaba).  Prisoners

20     are under control of the military police battalion of the 65th ..."

21             Now, that's accurate, isn't it, that's accurate information

22     there?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Then it continues:

25             "The assistant commander for security and intelligence affairs of

Page 42286

 1     the VRS Main Staff proposes the following measures ..."

 2             That's Tolimir; right?

 3        A.   Yes, General Tolimir was assistant commander for security and

 4     intelligence affairs.

 5        Q.   You've already told us, and it's in your statement, that he was

 6     in Borike sector that day.  In the Borike area, let's put it that way.

 7        A.   That's right.

 8        Q.   And his -- what he writes or what it says is:

 9             "Prohibit access to all unauthorised individuals, filming and

10     photographing prisoners.

11             "Prohibit traffic for all UN vehicles en route

12     Zvornik-Vlasenica ...," et cetera.

13             "Commander of the military police battalion shall take measure to

14     remove war prisoners from the main Milici-Zvornik road, place them

15     somewhere indoors or in the area protected from sighting from the ground

16     or air.

17             "4.  Once the commander of the military police battalion receives

18     this order he shall contact General Miletic and receive from him

19     additional orders and verify if the proposal has been approved by the

20     commander of the Main Staff.

21             "Commander.

22             "Lieutenant-Colonel Milomir Savcic."

23             And then handwritten on the bottom left:

24             "Sent 1510 hours.

25             "13 July.

Page 42287

 1             "1995."

 2             Signed Gojkovic.

 3             So this has been sent at 1510, according to the teleprinter

 4     operator, just about an hour after that intercept we saw, saying:  Don't

 5     do anything until I send you a telegram; right?

 6        A.   Yes, but it seems to me that that conversation took place at

 7     1405, if I'm not mistaken.  Maybe I am mistaken --

 8        Q.   You're correct --

 9        A.   -- but I think --

10        Q.   -- 1405, so this is about an hour later that it's sent.  Right?

11        A.   Yes, sent, but it's a bit illogical that I first write a

12     telegram, right?  So if this telephone conversation took place at 1405,

13     the one that was intercepted, and this practically - I don't know what to

14     call this - this information about treatment of prisoners of war is

15     written before that, five minutes --

16        Q.   You're hanging on the 1400 at the top and saying it says "1400,"

17     not "1406."  Is that your point?  Not 1410.  Is that the point you're

18     making?

19        A.   Well, that's not the point.  There are several points here.  If

20     you wish, we can start --

21        Q.   Well --

22        A.   -- from the heading --

23        Q.   Well, wait for the questions.  All I was pointing out to you is

24     getting you to agree that it says it was sent approximately one hour

25     after that intercept, and we agree on that, right, that's what the

Page 42288

 1     teleprinter operator has written.

 2        A.   The teleprinter operator wrote that, and now how he wrote that is

 3     a separate story all together.

 4        Q.   Right.  We'll get into that in a minute.  So this is an order by

 5     you on its face to Zoran Malinic about prisoners; right?

 6        A.   Two paragraphs of this instruction, order, refer to the military

 7     police, and these two paragraphs are fully in line with the Rules of

 8     Service for the military police and the tasks of the military police --

 9        Q.   So the answer is "yes"?

10        A.   I stated at the first and the second and during the interview

11     with Mr. McCloskey that I do not remember this; however, if I really sent

12     this the answer is yes.  And I can explain each and every one of these

13     paragraphs.

14        Q.   Wait for me to ask --

15        A.   Even on this day I would sign --

16        Q.   Okay.  Finish -- finish what you're saying.

17        A.   Well, ask.

18        Q.   All right.

19        A.   Please go ahead.

20        Q.   Well, here's one thing you said about this --

21             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, Mr. Nicholls, I didn't understand his

22     answer.

23             Mr. Savcic you said:

24             "... however, if I really sent this the answer is yes ."

25             What did you mean?  Do you agree that you sent this?

Page 42289

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mr. President, if you have this

 2     document before you, you see that my name and surname are only

 3     typewritten.  My signature is not there.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers]

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do not know where such a document

 6     could be considered at all.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Savcic, we all know that.  My question is

 8     whether you agree that you sent this?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From the very outset, I've been

10     saying that I do not remember this, but I cannot rule it out all together

11     either.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Fair enough.

13             Please continue, Mr. Nicholls.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

15        Q.   Well, let me see -- read you what you said when you were first

16     shown this document by the OTP, that was in your interview in 2005,

17     almost eight years ago, it was in October.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  This is 65 ter 25395 for my friends, at e-court

19     page 29.

20        Q.   "Q. Okay.  So I really need you to help me with this.  You think

21     this is a document that was created falsely and placed in this Drina

22     archive or is it something ..."

23             Your answer:

24             "I doubt it was falsified.  I mean, to be honest, I don't know.

25     I am closer to the truth if I say this is an authentic document, but if

Page 42290

 1     you'll allow me I really can't remember it."

 2             So whatever "closer to the truth" means, do you stand by that,

 3     that you said in your interview, which you told me right at the beginning

 4     you do stand by your interview?  You're closer to the truth if you say

 5     this document is authentic.

 6        A.   I'm the closest to the truth if I say, as I have said, that I do

 7     not remember this document.  All the rest can be --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter did not hear the end of the

 9     sentence.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:

11        Q.   Could you finish -- could you repeat the end of your sentence,

12     please, the interpreters didn't catch it.

13        A.   I'm saying I'm closest to the truth when I say that I do not

14     remember this document.  All the rest can be possible.

15        Q.   All right.  Well, one of the things you said a moment ago was

16     talking about how it didn't have a signature, et cetera.  Let me explain

17     to you what's in evidence in this case, what the person who remembers

18     sending this telegram said, Mr. Danko Gojkovic.

19             MR. NICHOLLS:  This is P00248 for my friends, his interview.

20        Q.   Here's what he said when he was shown this document in an

21     interview.

22             "The last document bears number 04258580.  Could you look at it

23     and comment on it.

24             "A. It was sent by the IKM 65 ZMPT, sent to the commander of the

25     GSBRS for knowledge, to the deputy of command of the general

Page 42291

 1     headquarters, and the commander of the military police -- excuse me, and

 2     the commander of the battalion of military police.  I sent it."

 3             Have you ever spoken to Danko Gojkovic about this in your role as

 4     investigator about this document that he, as soon as he saw it, said he

 5     sent?

 6        A.   I never talked to Mr. Gojkovic, but I was in a position to read

 7     the transcript of his testimony; and as far as I can remember, I saw

 8     there that he cannot say for sure who drafted this telegram or paper.  If

 9     I'm not mistaken, please correct me, but I think that's the way it was.

10        Q.   All right.  Well, this might cut it short.  Can you agree with me

11     that it was completely unambiguous in his testimony that Danko Gojkovic

12     said that he, in fact, received this telegram in the form we have it in

13     and that he typed it into his teleprinter and sent it?  And that after he

14     did so, he put the date, time, and his signature?

15        A.   I can agree with that.

16        Q.   All right.  Let me show you something else he said when you were

17     shown this telegram the first time in your interview.  This was at page

18     48 to 49 -- sorry, page 32.  You said:

19             "In the proposal of the measures that needs to be taken,

20     assistant commander for intelligence and security of the Main Staff

21     proposes as one of the measures that as well.  Whether his intention was

22     hiding them or protecting them, I really don't know, but I know that in

23     that soccer field it is not a stadium.  The things that happened there

24     were completely opposite of what's been written here.  They even made a

25     list, they made a list, not a complete list, but they even made a list of

Page 42292

 1     the war prisoners.

 2             "Q. Have you seen that list?

 3             "A. I did not see the list, but there are witnesses who said that

 4     the list was taken away from Major Malinic later.  And I really hope that

 5     there are someone, that there is someone who survived from there, who

 6     gave their details when the lists were made."

 7             So now do you know -- that was 2005.  Do you now know whether

 8     there were any survivors from the men under -- the prisoners held by

 9     Zoran Malinic that day?

10        A.   I think that I had an opportunity, but I wasn't focused on that,

11     to hear the testimony of a witness from Kasaba I think.  Now, whether I'm

12     mistaken or not, now was it in this case or was it in General Mladic's

13     case?  If I made a mistake, I'm sorry.

14        Q.   So you don't know that one man who had been at Nova Kasaba

15     survived, KDZ045, survived mass executions at the dam?  Is that the one

16     you're thinking of?  Or maybe you're thinking of KDZ333 who survived a

17     mass execution at Branjevo Farm after being held at Nova Kasaba.  Is it

18     one of those two?

19        A.   It is a witness who was at the football stadium at Nova Kasaba.

20     Now, what happened to that man afterwards, now -- I mean, I really cannot

21     say.  I heard the testimony of a man who was in Nova Kasaba or I heard

22     that testimony in part at least.

23        Q.   All right.  I'll move on.  Just one second.  Okay.  I was looking

24     for page 12, line 12, you said:

25             "Finally, in later contacts with Malinic, I learned that he never

Page 42293

 1     received any telegram from me about the treatment of prisoners of war."

 2             That's not exactly what Zoran Malinic says under oath.  In his

 3     transcript in the Tolimir case, which is 65 ter 25439, at his testimony

 4     at T15390, talking about this telegram he said he doesn't remember

 5     whether he received it.  He didn't say:  I know I never received it.  The

 6     quote is:

 7             "From what I know, and from this point in time, I cannot say

 8     either yes or no.  I don't remember if I received this telegram."

 9             When was it you talked to Mr. Malinic and he supposedly told you

10     he never received it?

11        A.   Had you read on, had you read the rest of Malinic's statement,

12     everything would have been fine.  I talked about this probably after

13     Krstic's statement when, in a way, it became very topical, especially

14     because of the completely false picture that was portrayed of the

15     protection regiment.  As far as I can remember, Malinic goes on to say

16     that had he received this telegram he would have had to act on those

17     orders; however, since he did not act on such orders, his conclusion is

18     that he never received the telegram.

19        Q.   What I read out is accurate.  He's making that conclusion perhaps

20     by speculating about what he would or would not have done; however, what

21     he said was he didn't remember whether he received it or not, which is

22     not what you said.  You said he confirmed he never received it.  That's

23     not true, is it?

24        A.   He confirmed unambiguously when talking to me that he never

25     received that telegram, so it wasn't a question of saying anything

Page 42294

 1     alternative or possible or -- plausible or possible.  He said

 2     unequivocally that he never received the telegram.

 3        Q.   All right.  Well, that brings me to what he said under oath about

 4     speaking with you about the telegram, which is 65 ter 25439, e-court page

 5     1, this is his testimony at page 15375 in 2011:

 6             "A. In the past ten years, I seldom met

 7     Lieutenant-Colonel Savcic.  I don't know if we discussed this."

 8             And he's speaking about the telegram.

 9             "Actually, I cannot see -- say with 100 per cent certainty

10     whether we discussed this document or not.  I can't be certain either

11     way."

12             And later at e-court page 2, T15376, he said:

13             "I said already that I don't remember discussing this document

14     with Colonel Savcic in the past ten years."

15        A.   Again, he is saying he doesn't remember.  I don't remember the

16     exact time when we talked either, but it is certain that we did talk.

17        Q.   Now, one other point you've -- you say in your statement at

18     paragraph 56 and you said something similar today, that the form of the

19     telegram, P00168, is absolutely unacceptable, it's very disputable.  But

20     you testified and you've testified today about how it would have been

21     delivered and the time delay.  Let me remind you of something you said in

22     the Popovic case.  This is at T15265, 65 ter 25397, at e-court pages 118

23     to 119.  When you were shown this document.

24             "Do you see an indication on the left-hand bottom of that

25     document of a time and date.

Page 42295

 1             "Yes, I do.

 2             "And what does that refer to?  Hand it over.

 3             "Signals and communications are not my specialty.  I don't know

 4     what this refers to, whether this refers to whether this -- to the moment

 5     when this document was received or transmitted.  I really can't be sure.

 6     I don't know whether this means that this document was received at that

 7     time or whether it was given for encrypted or -- whether it was encrypted

 8     at that moment or transferred at a different moment for encrypting.  I

 9     really don't know."

10             And that's true, isn't it, communications are not your specialty?

11        A.   Communications are not my specialty.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And let me just remind you of something you may have

13     written that Mr. Gojkovic explained in his interview.  He said that

14     commun -- telegrams could not have been sent from Borike because there

15     wasn't a teleprinter there.  That's in his interview at e-court page 24.

16     He said that documents to be sent from Borike - and remember, this is a

17     professional throughout the war teleprinter operator of the

18     brigade - that orders -- documents to be sent from Borike came to the

19     Rogatica Brigade and his section via telephone or courier and that the

20     IKM in Borike was about 18 kilometres from the Rogatica Brigade.  And he

21     testified, which you would have read, at T10728, that he received the

22     telegram maybe half an hour before the time indicated as transmission

23     time maybe, maybe 1410.  So that's why there's a delay, sir.  It's not

24     because it has to come from the General Staff, from Crna Rijeka.  The

25     telegram had to be driven 18 kilometres to the Rogatica Brigade, handed

Page 42296

 1     to Danko Gojkovic, and then he had to type it into his teleprinter.

 2     That's why it says "1510"; right?

 3        A.   Thank you for the additional explanations that I had not been

 4     aware of.  And this has to do with the following.  At the forward command

 5     post of Borike, there was not a teleprinter.  The encryption of documents

 6     took place in Rogatica.  Quite frankly, I did not know that.  Secondly,

 7     there is a misunderstanding here; that is to say, I was saying that the

 8     telegram that had been encrypted at the Rogatica Brigade, irrespective of

 9     the location, whether it's Borike -- I see that it's Rogatica here.  So

10     from that place, it has to go to the encryption of the Main Staff, and

11     then as a telegram it is sent to the unit because it is sent to the

12     Main Staff.  I am speaking about the further sending of the telegram from

13     the Main Staff to the battalion of the military police.  It seems that we

14     are not understanding each other because you say that this time was

15     needed to get to the Rogatica Brigade for the telegram to get encrypted

16     and then to be sent.  That's all right.  But we have this time of an hour

17     and a half or so where we should not be referring to the Main Staff

18     because it does not appear there yet.

19        Q.   The intercept -- sorry, the teleprinter operator stated, and I

20     already read this out to you, he's a communications expert, you're not,

21     that it was sent to the commander of the Main Staff for knowledge, to the

22     deputy of command, and the commander of the battalion of the military

23     police.  That's where he says he sent it.

24        A.   I agree with the first two statements because all members of the

25     Main Staff use single encryption.  I do not agree with the other thing

Page 42297

 1     because the protection regiment did not have encryption of their own.

 2     They used the encryption of the Main Staff or of the unit on -- in whose

 3     area they were.  So the telegram for the battalion of the military police

 4     could not have arrived through communications equipment to Nova Kasaba;

 5     rather, it had to go to the Main Staff.  And then once it is deciphered,

 6     it had to be couriered to Nova Kasaba.

 7        Q.   And then they would receive it and act on it; right?

 8        A.   Yes, right.

 9        Q.   Okay.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have P04407.

11        Q.   This is 13th July 1995 from General Mladic.  You can see the

12     distribution list.  Prevention of leakage of confidential military

13     information.  It's an order.  And if you look at - I won't go through it

14     all because of the time - you'll agree with me if you look at points 4

15     and 5 that they relate very closely to the telegram which was sent to

16     General Mladic for approval?

17        A.   I didn't understand you.  What was it that was sent to

18     General Mladic?

19        Q.   Okay.  P00168, which I don't want to bring up again, is the

20     telegram we've been discussing, the one that has your name on it.  And

21     what I'm asking you is if you look at point 4:

22             "In the area of combat operations in the wider areas of

23     Srebrenica and Zepa, prevent the entry of all local and foreign

24     journalists, except the journalists of the Main Staff of the VRS ..."

25             That relates to virtually very closely to the telegram of

Page 42298

 1     preventing access of unauthorised individuals and filming of prisoners;

 2     right?

 3        A.   Yes, but it is not surprising because in all the rules that were

 4     used by the Army of Republika Srpska, from the level of the brigade, the

 5     corps, and further up, these are measures envisaged within the framework

 6     of securing the area of combat.  They are regularly applied in all combat

 7     operations.  We even apply them in peace time during military manoeuvres.

 8     All the militaries of the world applied the same thing whenever there is

 9     an operation or whenever they have manoeuvres.

10        Q.   And it's also not surprising when it follows a telegram sent to

11     Mladic by General Tolimir recommending exactly that procedure; right?

12        A.   Absolutely.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14        A.   It is not surprising at all.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  P05101, please.

17        Q.   I think you've seen this document before.  Very quickly, it's the

18     14th of July, the next day, from General Tolimir --

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And it's informing that:

21             "There is an unmanned aircraft in the air-space reconnoitring and

22     jamming radio communications.  Since the aircraft has been there since

23     0500 this morning and has probably taken pictures of certain features and

24     movements, the following needs to be done."

25             And one of those following is to destroy the aircraft.  So my

Page 42299

 1     only question is at this point the VRS at the very top is aware that

 2     there were aircraft above, probably taking aerial photos; right?

 3        A.   The VRS knew even before that that there was aircraft that was

 4     taking aerial photos.  Personally, I felt their work and indirectly I

 5     their -- I felt their work activity.  What General Tolimir proposes is a

 6     classical measure of anti-aircraft defence.  Under paragraph 4 he says:

 7             "If spotted, the unmanned aircraft should be immediately

 8     destroyed."

 9             This means that we should engage in an anti-aircraft combat, and

10     that's all.

11        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's look at your order from the next day,

12     65 ter 03841, signed by your deputy Jovo Lazic -- Jazic, excuse me.  It's

13     an order been preventing the leakage of confidential military

14     information.

15             "Order:

16             "1. ... prevent entry of all uninvited persons into the zone of

17     combat operations and the unit's zone of responsibility."

18             "2," very similar to Mladic's order we just looked at:

19             "In the zone of combat operations in the wider area of Srebrenica

20     and Zepa, prevent the entry of all local and foreign journalists,

21     except ...those from the Main Staff."

22             "3. Prohibit and prevent release of information, announcements,

23     and statements to the media about the progress, state, and results of

24     combat operations in this area, and the overall activities carried out in

25     the area, especially the information regarding prisoners of war,

Page 42300

 1     evacuated civilians, escapees, and similar."

 2             So this is your order; right?

 3        A.   This is not my order.  You said it yourself, that this was signed

 4     by the Chief of Staff, Jovo Jazic.

 5        Q.   Yeah, when he signs under your name, isn't it with your

 6     authorisation?

 7        A.   Well, that's correct.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  What escapees are you talking about here?

 9        A.   I apologise.  I can't find this.  Under what number is that?

10        Q.   This is the end of the last sentence of number 3 -- well, there's

11     only one sentence.  It's under number 3.

12        A.   I can see it now.  I suppose what he had in mind the persons that

13     were crossing the territory.  I don't know.  I did not draft this order.

14     Perhaps this was copied from the previous order by the commander of the

15     staff.  Let me ask you something:  That order by Mladic was written on

16     the 14th.  We were in Crna Rijeka, some 3- to 400 metres from the command

17     post of the Main Staff, and it took two to three days for this telegram

18     to reach the regiment command.  And I already spoke about our problem

19     with communications, especially the encrypted telegrams.  You can see

20     that this is a copy of a previous order.  I didn't have anything to do

21     with Srebrenica.  I couldn't take any measures.  I couldn't carry out any

22     activities in the Zepa sector.  There were 30 soldiers with me plus --

23        Q.   Okay.

24        A.   -- the motorised battalion --

25        Q.   Okay.

Page 42301

 1        A.   -- that manned positions facing Zepa.

 2        Q.   Okay.  I think you made your point there.  Are you seriously

 3     saying that escapees here is referring to the Muslim column moving

 4     through the woods?  Is that what you were trying to say?  I thought those

 5     were enemy units.

 6        A.   You know what?  It's very difficult to interpret what somebody

 7     said when they said something or wrote something.  I don't know what this

 8     person meant.  Throughout the war on that note almost every day it

 9     happened that individuals or small groups left Srebrenica to go towards

10     Kladanj and Tuzla.  I don't know whether this is what is meant under this

11     bullet point.  I don't know.

12        Q.   Well, it says -- part of what is supposed to be prevented is

13     information about overall activities carried out in area, especially the

14     information regarding prisoners of war.  Now, on the 15th of July, 1995,

15     in the area, prisoners of war were being executed by the hundreds and

16     hundreds, over a thousand of them in Kozluk.  That's what this order is

17     about keeping secret, isn't it?

18        A.   No, Mr. Prosecutor.  I believe that Kozluk was excluded from the

19     area to which this applies, but I would like us to look at the roles of

20     the brigades.  And you will see the application of security measures for

21     combat.  It clearly states that the commander has to take measures in

22     order to provide for the counter-intelligence of its units --

23        Q.   Okay.  Okay.

24        A.   -- the situation in the unit, plans, intentions, and so on and so

25     forth.

Page 42302

 1        Q.   Yeah.  Other than these days in July 1995 and the orders we've

 2     looked at, can you show me an order that has the same language about

 3     keeping secrets about what's going on with prisoners of war and escapees,

 4     if it's so standard?

 5        A.   I don't have it, but I'm sure you have the order of the commander

 6     of the Drina Corps for Krivaja 95 operation, the orders of the brigade

 7     commanders.  Within the bullet point order for securing combat, they had

 8     to do it.  Every rule demands that.  I repeat, in peace time during

 9     manoeuvres, similar measures were applied.

10        Q.   Okay.  Okay.

11        A.   Uninvited persons cannot just turn up in an area where combat is

12     taking place.

13        Q.   Okay.  Are you telling me Krivaja says prohibit and prevent

14     release of information about prisoners of war, that it has that language

15     in it?

16        A.   No, no, no.  I am saying that there is the wording "securing

17     combat operation zones."  Do not twist my words.  I'm saying that there

18     is a bullet point under which one has to provide for the security of a

19     combat operations zone.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honours, I think I have 15 minutes left of my

21     allotted time.  I'd ask for about 20 to 30 minutes, and whether I'm

22     granted that or not depends on what I do in the next 15 minutes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Could you tell us about the areas you would like to

24     cover for the remainder of your time if extended?

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  If extended, I would like to go - it may be

Page 42303

 1     less - into his role as an investigator for the Defence.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I haven't checked the time yet, but you'll have

 4     extra 15 minutes.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  Then could I --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, just a second.  Could you finish in 20 minutes?

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  I --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, try to.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  I think -- I thought I had 15 minutes left from

10     this point.

11             JUDGE KWON:  You have four minutes left.

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  Our numbers don't match, Your Honour.  I'm not

13     doubting you, but I was -- our count was that I had 15 minutes from now.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  I have to say that I'm counting about the same as

15     Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

17                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

18             JUDGE KWON:  I was -- misread the note.  You have 24 minutes

19     left.  So you have about 40 minutes.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.  I'll try to be as quick as possible.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             MR. NICHOLLS:

23        Q.   Now, one of the things you say in your statement at paragraph 70

24     is you believe the Geneva Conventions prohibit public display of

25     prisoners.  And that perhaps that's the rationale for the -- that portion

Page 42304

 1     of the telegram.  Do you know which convention and article you're

 2     thinking of?  Can you be more specific?  If you don't know, that's okay.

 3        A.   I can't refer to a specific article, but I have it somewhere, but

 4     I can't think of the --

 5        Q.   Okay.  Well, I think you're referring to Article 13 of Geneva

 6     Convention III, which states that, likewise:

 7             "Prisoners of war must at all times be protected particularly

 8     against acts of violence, intimidation, insults, and public curiosity."

 9             You're not suggesting that that provision prevents aerial

10     photography, are you?

11        A.   I am.

12        Q.   You are?  Okay.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  In that case, could I have P04308, e-court page --

14     let's just do it quickly, 37.

15        Q.   Now, I'm putting to you that this is what the concern was with

16     aerial photography and why that telegram was sent.  What you'll see is a

17     photo of prisoners gathered at Nova Kasaba on the 13th of July at 1400

18     hours, right about the time of some of those intercepts, prisoners who

19     we've agreed were killed, murdered, over the next four days.  And you're

20     telling the Court that you think the prevention of aerial photography was

21     to stop exposing these people to public curiosity?

22        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, how could I have prevented aerial photography?

23     I'm just saying that aerial photography is part of a intelligence

24     activity.

25        Q.   Just stop, stop, stop [Overlapping speakers] --

Page 42305

 1        A.   Every military in the world has to make efforts to --

 2        Q.   You're not answering --

 3        A.   I am answering your question.

 4        Q.   No, you're not.  My question was:  Are you saying that prevention

 5     of aerial photography -- you just said to me that you thought the

 6     prevention of aerial photography was in line with the Geneva Conventions

 7     to prohibit exposing prisoners to public curiosity.  I'm showing you a

 8     photo of prisoners who were murdered in the next four days, and you're

 9     telling me that this photo in your view would expose them to public

10     curiosity, which is why it's important not to let photographs be taken.

11        A.   No.  In that I did not mean that that had to do with the article

12     of Geneva Conventions that you quoted.  I primarily meant every activity

13     by uninvited persons among whom there is a majority of journalists more

14     often than not and whose activity is intelligence activity.  I didn't

15     have in mind this specific article of the Geneva Conventions.

16        Q.   All right.  I'm not going to go through them all because of time,

17     but I'm sure as investigator for the Defence you're aware that we have

18     photos of Sandici meadow from the air; at Pilica Dom with a truck shown

19     in the back - that's P04308 at page 246; that we have a vehicle log and

20     the testimony of the driver of the vehicle log, who said he was at

21     Pilica Dom that day loading bodies; that we have photographs of

22     Branjevo Farm, that's P04308, page 229, showing -- I'm impressed with how

23     quickly the e-court's catching up; P4308 at page 229, this photograph.

24     And I'm putting it to you, that's the purpose of prohibiting aerial

25     photography:  To hide the victims as they're detained, to hide the

Page 42306

 1     victims as they're transported, to hide the victims as they're murdered

 2     and as they're buried.  And it wasn't successful.

 3        A.   What wasn't successful?  Who wasn't successful?

 4        Q.   The Main Staff, the VRS, was not successful in stopping aerial

 5     photographs of the people who were subsequently taken and killed, people

 6     at Nova Kasaba who were photographed there were murdered at Branjevo Farm

 7     and here in front of us we have an aerial photo of the Branjevo Farm

 8     murder site with bodies.  I'm putting it to you that's what the

 9     prohibition of the aerial photographs was about?

10        A.   You can put it to me whatever you want.  The Main Staff and the

11     Army of Republika Srpska did not have the means by which they could

12     prevent aerial photography.

13        Q.   Now, which is why you hide people inside buildings according to

14     the telegram and move them to places like the Kravica warehouse or the

15     Vuk Karadzic school in Bratunac?

16        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, I did not try to do anything, and if my order was

17     conveyed to Malinic, in the part where it says that people should be

18     moved from open spaces, had a practical explanation.  The ratio between

19     the detainees and those who secure them was 20:1, if not more.  And if

20     such a situation, if night had fallen, the question is now whether any of

21     my soldiers would have survived.  The question is what would have

22     happened?  So that was a measure of efficiency, to secure the detainees

23     with as little force as possible.  There was no hidden agenda there at

24     all.

25        Q.   Of course then it could have just said secure the prisoners

Page 42307

 1     inside facilities before nightfall, not keep them from being exposed to

 2     aerial photography; right?  That would have been a simpler way to put it?

 3        A.   Could we have that order back?  My memory is not photographic.  I

 4     can't retain every single word.  I can't remember what it says under

 5     which bullet point.

 6        Q.   What it says is, it's P00168, protected from sighting from the

 7     ground or the air.

 8        A.   From sighting from the ground and from the air, and I explained

 9     that in my statement.  I explained why.

10        Q.   Okay.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  65 ter 25399, please.

12        Q.   A different topic.  This is 1997 now.  This is from the

13     Main Staff -- excuse me, it's to the security administration of the VRS

14     General Staff to you personally.  And it's from General Tolimir.  And

15     you've seen this document before; right?

16        A.   I saw this document at the Tolimir trial for the first time, and

17     then I said that I had not seen it before and that I didn't know anything

18     about it.

19        Q.   Right.  You also said that doubtless it was sent to me but I

20     don't remember receiving it at the time, right, in the Tolimir trial?

21        A.   Yes, yes, you can see that it was sent to me.  However, can you

22     display page 2, which will show us whether it was ever received by the

23     security administration.

24        Q.   Yeah, we can go to page 2.

25        A.   On margin of the second page there should be a square stamp that

Page 42308

 1     belongs to the security administration, and it should display the date

 2     when a document was received.  This is a customary procedure.  Now I have

 3     my doubts as to whether this document was ever received by the security

 4     administration at all.

 5        Q.   Yeah, if it's the received version but not -- the sent versions

 6     don't have received stamps.  Now, this is about --

 7        A.   That's correct.

 8        Q.   Because of the time, very quickly, what General Tolimir here is

 9     recommending that this list of -- if we can go through it very quickly to

10     the next page in both languages.  And then the next page in the English,

11     and the next page, sorry, in the English.  All right.  So because of the

12     time I won't go through all of this.  But what General Tolimir is saying

13     is that this document has been received from - which he attaches - from

14     the Dutch government and it's asking about what happened with these 239

15     male refugees from Srebrenica at Potocari.  And the Dutch government are

16     saying that they've asked for this information several times and have

17     never received a response from the RS.  And General Tolimir proposes that

18     there be no written answer concerning this matter be sent to the Dutch

19     embassy or government.  And under no circumstances should any request

20     regarding this document be replied to in writing, regardless of the

21     content of the reply, because it could be used to legitimatise the list

22     which was arbitrarily compiled by Mr. Nuhanovic.  So you don't remember

23     if you received this or not.

24             What is Tolimir concerned about here?  What is wrong with

25     responding to the DutchBat request about what happened to these 239

Page 42309

 1     people who were missing who were in Potocari?  Or you have no idea

 2     whatsoever what this is all about?

 3        A.   The last time I said when I saw this at the Tolimir trial that I

 4     had not received this.  Anything I said about the document would be

 5     speculation.

 6        Q.   You also said this at the Tolimir trial, this is at T15795:

 7             "By the way, do you know what happened to this Ibro Nuhanovic?

 8     What became of him?  He is referred to as having to do with compiling the

 9     list in this document?"

10             Your answer was in 2011 on the 21st of June:

11             "This is the first time I hear of Ibro Nuhanovic.  I really have

12     no idea.  I have no clue who he is or what happened.  I know nothing."

13             Now do you know what happened to Ibro Nuhanovic?

14        A.   No.

15        Q.   Your Karadzic's chief investigator -- who is Ibro Nuhanovic?

16     What was his role?

17        A.   I must admit I have a problem with names, but if I remember

18     well - I'm not sure though - somebody by that name or a similar name was

19     a member of the negotiations commission.  But then I might be completely

20     wrong.  You know the team that went to the Fontana Hotel.  But I'm not

21     sure by any means.  That's the first thing that comes to my mind.  If you

22     could jog my memory with a document, I might be more specific.

23        Q.   That's right.  He was one of the Muslim civilian representatives

24     of the people gathered in Potocari.  And are you saying here today you

25     don't know what happened to that man?

Page 42310

 1        A.   Yes, I'm saying I don't know what happened to that man.

 2        Q.   So you didn't follow the testimony of Petar Uscumlic,

 3     Mr. Karadzic's witness in this trial, who confirmed that Mr. Nuhanovic

 4     disappeared and agreed that he'd been murdered after being separated in

 5     Potocari?

 6        A.   I didn't follow Mr. Uscumlic's testimony because I have many

 7     other duties and I cannot follow everything.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well last question:  In your role as investigator, do you

 9     know that the men separated in Potocari and taken away to Bratunac were

10     murdered, subsequently murdered over the next few days?

11        A.   I know that there were executions of prisoners of war, but all

12     the details -- you asked me yesterday.  On the 17th of July the people

13     who were at Nova Kasaba were executed, you said.  But how am I to know?

14     I would have -- I would have to know who was at Nova Kasaba in the first

15     place and then find out whether they were executed or not.

16        Q.   This -- this --

17        A.   I would need to see some evidence.

18        Q.   This was sent personally to you from Tolimir.  Tolimir said:  Do

19     not respond to this in writing in any way or legalise this list because

20     of people separated last seen at Potocari.  What happened to those

21     people, men?

22        A.   I do not know because at that time we didn't deal with these

23     problems.  What's the date when this was sent, by the way?

24        Q.   February 27th, 1997.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honour.  Sorry to go over the time

Page 42311

 1     for the break.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] February 27.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you have some more questions --

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just a --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  -- after the break.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Just a few.  I'll cut it --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:  -- short.  And I would tender this document,

 9     Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  I would object, Mr. President.  The witness has

12     been unable to confirm any part of this document.  And I also wonder

13     what's the relevance of it with respect to his evidence.

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  It goes right to his ...

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would say it's relevant, it goes directly to his

18     credibility, and he has not said that he did not receive it, that he

19     doesn't recall.  I think it goes to his credibility.  It was sent

20     personally to him from Tolimir and he hasn't disputed the authenticity of

21     the document.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  We absolutely agree with you.

25             We'll admit it.

Page 42312

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  Document 25399 receives number P6471,

 2     Your Honours.

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll resume at five past 11.00.

 5                           --- Recess taken at 10.36 a.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 11.09 a.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  I'd like to introduce

 9     Charlie Jones from Vanderbilt University in the United States who has

10     been a legal intern with our Defence team this summer.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Nicholls, please continue.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Thank you, Your Honours.

14        Q.   Okay, sir, I want to ask you about an exhibit, a Defence exhibit,

15     1D00646.  The "monologue of the 8th Operation Group of the ABiH."  Now,

16     this document was not admitted but I want to ask you a little bit about

17     it.  In this trial at T1378 His Honour Judge Kwon, the Presiding Judge,

18     asked Mr. Karadzic:

19             "What is this document about?  Who prepared or produced this

20     document?"

21             And Mr. Karadzic responded:

22             "Excellencies, this is a monologue, monograph of the 8th

23     Srebrenica operational group," et cetera.

24             And on the next page Mr. Karadzic said again:

25             "Excellencies, this is a Muslim source, a monograph about their

Page 42313

 1     own army after the war.  It is loaded into the EDS and e-court,"

 2     et cetera.

 3             And His Honour, the Presiding Judge said:

 4             "Mr. Karadzic, I would take your word, but you're not giving

 5     evidence and we're not satisfied with the foundation of the document,"

 6     et cetera.

 7             So just to bring you up to speed:  We sent a letter to the

 8     Defence and said we would like to inspect the original of this document.

 9     And if we could just have the cover page in e-court.  And we met with

10     Mr. Sladojevic who brought a CD and told us that the Defence did not have

11     an original, had no opportunity to provide it with us, and told us that

12     this is all that their investigator got and couldn't tell us where it

13     came from.

14             So, first of all, could we zoom in on this, please, a bit on the

15     8, which looks to be of a different type-set.  And the reason we asked

16     about this is by chance we got this on a CD and we copied and pasted this

17     PDF into a Word file, and I'd like to show in Sanction what happens when

18     that is done.  We'll copy and paste this.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Before we go any further, could we go into private

20     session briefly.

21                           [Private session]

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42314

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

15             Shall we continue, Mr. Nicholls.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.  And if we could show on -- I don't know if

17     we need to switch to Sanction.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let us switch to Sanction.  Yes.

19        Q.   All right.  Now we'll copy this PDF into a word document and the

20     8 changes to a 2, which now matches the type-set more.  And the

21     properties on the PDF say that it was created - and this is not an

22     allegation - that it was created by a member of the Defence team when you

23     look at the properties of the PDF.  So my question is:  As chief

24     investigator, what is this document?  Where did it come from?  Why are we

25     provided with it only on CD?  And why does the 8 change to a 2 when the

Page 42315

 1     PDF is cut and pasted into a Word document and there we see what appears

 2     to be the original, unaltered - I'll put it that day - document.  I know

 3     that's a compound question, but I would like you to explain this document

 4     and why we just saw what we saw.

 5        A.   This document which is, in fact, a monograph of the 2nd Corps of

 6     the BH army and only partly of the 8th Operative Group, which later

 7     became the 28th Division, was obtained from a member of a -- a former

 8     member of the 28th Division.  This document was on a CD and we used it as

 9     such.  I'm not sure here if the 8 was changed into a 2.  I don't think

10     that this is any hocus-pocus.  But simply we're talking about two

11     operative groups.  This is not only about the 8th Operative Group but

12     about the overall organisation of the 2nd Corps during the war.  There

13     were operative groups and later I believe that it was in 1994 that they

14     switched to divisions.

15        Q.   Okay, okay, I'll stop you there because we're going a little

16     astray.  Who obtained this document, you or of the one investigators that

17     you co-ordinate?

18        A.   I obtained this document --

19        Q.   Okay --

20        A.   -- at the very beginning of my work.

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42316

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this also be redacted, this

 2     sentence.  If the Trial Chamber needs more information, then I request

 3     that we go into private session.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't object to private session.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, let's go into private session first.

 6                           [Private session]

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42317

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7                           [Open session]

 8             MR. NICHOLLS:

 9        Q.   Okay.  Why were you not able --

10             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry.

12        Q.   Why, very briefly, could you not get a hard copy of this

13     "monologue"?

14        A.   We made great efforts to come by this monography, but still we

15     were unable to.  Our conclusion is that it was very soon called back

16     because it did not suit the members of the Muslim people or the members

17     of the BH army because it's -- also speaks about the war time --

18        Q.   [Overlapping speakers]

19        A.   -- experience of the unit which also --

20        Q.   You answered the question, that you thought they would not want

21     it available to -- made available.  Okay.  Well, the 8th OG is the one in

22     Srebrenica.  The 2nd OG is not in Srebrenica.  If you say this was about

23     both, why has the title of the monologue and all the contents been

24     altered, clearly altered, to make it appear that the entire contents of

25     the document apply to the 8th OG?  And I'd like you to explain --

Page 42318

 1        A.   Could you please repeat your question --

 2        Q.   -- why --

 3        A.   -- what was altered and where?

 4        Q.   Okay.  We just showed you how very clearly the cover here, 2nd

 5     Corps, 2nd Operativna Grupa in the original, and what was tried to be

 6     submitted to the Court and provided to us, if you happen to cut and paste

 7     it from the PDF into a Word file, it has been altered to read "8th

 8     Operational Group."  Why was the title altered?  And we can do it again

 9     if you want to see it again.

10             JUDGE KWON:  It should be the other way around?

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry.  Yes, Your Honour.  2nd Operational Group

12     altered to 8th Operational Group to make it appear as though it's all

13     related to Srebrenica.

14        Q.   No explanation.  Is that what that means with the hand wave?

15        A.   A hand wave can mean many things.  This is about the --

16        Q.   I'm not --

17        A.   -- entire monography of the 2nd Corps.

18        Q.   I'm not asking you what it's about.  I'm asking you why the cover

19     was clearly changed from 2nd to 8th.

20        A.   I did not see that and I didn't draw that conclusion.  I am

21     saying that the initial organisation of the 2nd Corps of the BH army --

22        Q.   I'm not asking you about that --

23        A.   -- was by operational groups.

24        Q.   Okay.  I'll do it one more time.  Watch your screen, please.

25     We're going to take the PDF which says "8th Operational Group," which was

Page 42319

 1     what was tried to be admitted before this Court, 8th Operational Group;

 2     i.e., Srebrenica.  That's what happens if you cut and paste it into a

 3     Word document.  The layer on the top on the PDF disappears and you get

 4     the original.

 5        A.   Well, this is a question for someone who is savvy in IT things.

 6        Q.   [Overlapping speakers] Let me ask --

 7        A.   I have no idea.

 8        Q.   Okay.  You don't -- can't explain.  I don't have much time.  Let

 9     me ask you this:  When you gave it to the Defence, when you got the CD

10     and gave it to the Defence, is that what we saw, 2nd Operational Group,

11     is that the form you gave it in?

12        A.   The 2nd Corps had more than one operational group.  I don't

13     know --

14        Q.   Stop, stop.  We're talking about this image.  We got this and it

15     was submitted to the Court on a CD.  When you got the CD, brought it, and

16     gave it to your colleagues on the Defence, is that what the image on the

17     CD was and only that, 2nd Operative Group?

18        A.   There are several images like this.  I didn't deal with these

19     details, especially with altering an 8 to a 2 or a 2 into an 8.  I cannot

20     say anything about that.  But I can say that I don't have the expertise

21     to do that nor did I do anything of this kind.

22        Q.   Okay.  Well, who -- how did it -- I don't want to keep asking

23     this.  If you don't know, say you have no idea.  How did it change after

24     you got it from 2nd Operative Group to 8th Operative Group when it was

25     tendered for admission, the image?

Page 42320

 1        A.   It's really unclear to me.  I have very literally knowledge in

 2     this field, too little to be able to say anything.

 3        Q.   Okay.  When you handed it over -- presumably you looked at this

 4     document when you got it from your source.  When you handed it over and

 5     you opened it up on the disc, did it say "2 Operative Group" just like we

 6     see there?

 7        A.   I was interested in the content, what it says.  As for the

 8     images, such as insignia, were of no interest to me.  I was interested in

 9     the contents of their monography.

10        Q.   Okay, okay --

11        A.   In each monography you see the names of the people who made it --

12        Q.   Stop --

13        A.   -- and you have the --

14        Q.   Stop, stop, stop.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             Mr. Savcic, if you could excuse yourself for a moment.  There's

17     something ...

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Nicholls, could you explain to us about your

20     basis that -- for your argument that the original should be the one which

21     says 2nd Operation Group?

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Because if you look at them, you can very clearly

23     see that the 8 is a completely different -- if we can bring the 8 --

24             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure whether we can compare the two.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  If we can go bigger, expand on the 8.

Page 42321

 1             JUDGE KWON:  In terms of typography and colour?

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour, and I have colour print-outs

 3     which make it much clearer than on the screen.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just one question.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  There -- there --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  2nd Corps after this 2 we see a period, but we do

 7     not -- in the -- the Serbian would not put a period after 2nd Operation

 8     Group after the Arabic letter 2.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  That I don't know.  But you're correct,

10     Your Honour.  I hadn't noticed it.  There's a period after the 8 but not

11     after the 2.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  You're quite correct.  Could we take a look at the

14     print-out.

15             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ordinal numbers in the Serbian

17     language do not have additions or suffixes like in English, 1st, 2nd,

18     et cetera.  Instead of those, dots are used.  However, if we look at the

19     contents then there's no doubt that it's a monography of the

20     8th Operational Group.  We're wasting time.  This chapter is about the

21     8th Operational Group.

22             JUDGE KWON:  No, we are talking about the cover page, this

23     insignia.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I don't think that

25     this is the cover page.  These are pages that mark chapters in that

Page 42322

 1     monography.  For each operational group for each section there is such an

 2     inserted page.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Whether it was a cover page or a chapter, new

 4     chapter page, do you agree that the Arabic letter 2 was altered to 8?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I do not agree, Excellencies.  It

 6     is possible that they used one template for all operational groups and

 7     then they just changed the numbers.  If it says "8th Operational Group,"

 8     it means that they had at least eight such groups and it's the same

 9     template where you just graphically alter the number.

10             JUDGE KWON:  That's a separate matter.  Whether this template --

11     this picture -- this image that we see in front of us was altered or not,

12     that was the question.

13             Mr. Robinson.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  For my part it appears

15     clearly to be altered, but I would like to -- since that's a very serious

16     allegation, I would like to know from the Prosecution whether this --

17     whether there's evidence that this was altered by the Defence team

18     afterwards or whether it was altered by the BiH army because that's a

19     very serious allegation that Mr. Nicholls is making that it was the

20     Defence that altered this.  So is he able to say or not?  Because if he

21     is, then I want to -- I think this should be seriously investigated by

22     our Defence team and I will do that, but if it's not, then the document

23     should be admitted because it's clearly -- now we have provenance to

24     admit the document.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, what -- I think if we look back at

Page 42323

 1     the transcript is I've been asking for an explanation from their witness,

 2     their chief investigator - who received this - how it happened and why

 3     before I made any allegations and haven't made allegations.  The -- and

 4     I'm not an expert, but the properties, as I said, on the PDF in the disc

 5     we got shows created by a member of the Defence team, and I said before

 6     that's not an allegation, that's just what it says.  So I've been trying

 7     to get an explanation from their chief investigator about how this

 8     happened.  And I don't think it should be on me to explain whether it was

 9     altered before or after they received it when it's their document that

10     they tried to tender.  I think they would know and their investigator

11     should know.  And it's only by chance that we noticed this when we were

12     cutting and pasting that the 2 changed to an 8.  So I'm not throwing any

13     stones.  I've been trying to get an explanation of how a document which

14     is clearly altered was tendered.

15             JUDGE KWON:  And you can communicate to the Defence team who the

16     author was in the property of the document.

17             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.  Well, they'll have it in theirs as well,

18     their CD --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

20             MR. NICHOLLS:  But I can communicate that to them.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I will show very

23     simply how this is done.  If I open a document with Fax Viewer, a TIF

24     document, I have a tool to make notes in it, insert frames, and so on.

25     If I open the same document in another programme, Document Imaging, then

Page 42324

 1     those additions are not there.  If they had a template, they could save

 2     that template in one programme and then edit it using another, as

 3     Mr. Nicholls has shown.  I have some documents here that are marked or

 4     annotated if opened in TIF, but if they opened in Document Imaging, you

 5     cannot see those changes.  And that's this graphic editing, whereas the

 6     contents, it fully matches the 8th Operational Group.  There's no doubt.

 7     And it is so comprehensive and goes to so much detail that nobody could

 8     make all that up.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  You're not giving evidence about that.

10             Why don't we just leave it there and continue with the witness.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.  And I'll move on.  I'll just

12     say that in the document properties, responding to what Mr. Karadzic just

13     said, with again the huge caveat that I'm not an expert in this and don't

14     pretend to be and I'm not testifying, but the name of the -- this was on

15     a CD.  The name of the PDF creator was not the person mentioned in

16     private session who this was obtained from or anybody else.

17             We can continue.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, whether we do this in front of --

19     with the witness or not, but I wanted to move the admission of the

20     document now because I think we have enough provenance -- some of these

21     issues as to the cover page will go to the weight.  But now he's told us

22     where he got this document from.  It's been -- now -- the contents are

23     relevant.  So there is now no reason why the document can't be admitted

24     in full.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  I would say that the provenance is still suspect

Page 42325

 1     and the fact that there has been a clear tampering on the cover page of

 2     the exhibit they sought to tender or changing of a number makes it

 3     inadmissible at this stage, just as it was at the beginning.  It only

 4     adds to the inadmissibility.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  But it's just as likely if not more that the ABiH

 6     did this and made it into the 8th Operational than it is our Defence

 7     team, so I don't see why it should not be admitted without -- when the

 8     contents of the document, not the title page, is what's relevant and

 9     you've now had enough evidence from General Savcic as to the provenance

10     of where he got that document.

11             MR. NICHOLLS:  I wouldn't say that "just as likely" meets the

12     standard, especially when the Defence can't even begin to explain why

13     this is happening.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, we can't explain because we don't know --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. Nicholls is putting a presumption that

18     the Defence team tampered with evidence.  As I'm sitting here right now,

19     this is all a surprise to me.  And if it was done by the ABiH when they

20     were creating this document as a way of changing from 2nd Corps to 8th,

21     that has nothing to do with the unreliability of the document.  The

22     contents, as Dr. Karadzic pointed out, deal exclusively with the

23     8th Operational Group and General Savcic has told us where he got this

24     document from, so there is no reason why the document couldn't be

25     admitted at this stage regardless of questions about the cover page.

Page 42326

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is not still satisfied with the

 3     provenance of the document.  We do not find a basis to admit this

 4     document at the moment.

 5             Shall we bring in the witness.

 6             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour, and just to respond to

 7     Mr. Robinson briefly.  What General Savcic said at page 43 -- page -- end

 8     of page 42, start of page 43 is:

 9             "This document is, in fact, a monograph of the 2nd Corps of the

10     ABiH army and only partly of the 8th OG group ..."

11             And, Your Honour, for the record I would tender the two images

12     just to be clear for the record what we've been discussing.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just to follow the transcript of today?

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes.

15             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there's no objection, Mr. Robinson?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, there's no objection, but I think it's very

17     incongruous for you to admit the cover page of a document without

18     admitting the rest of the document but --

19             JUDGE KWON:  No, without this document, it's impossible to follow

20     today's transcript at a later stage.  That's the whole purpose.

21                           [The witness takes the stand]

22             MR. NICHOLLS:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, that took much longer than

23     I expected --

24             JUDGE KWON:  But I don't think that will be counted as your time.

25             MR. NICHOLLS:  Okay.

Page 42327

 1             JUDGE KWON:  So you are going to produce one sheet containing the

 2     two images?

 3             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, we'll do that and show it to our friends and

 4     then upload it if that's --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Does the Defence also wish to take a look at these

 6     images?

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  No, thank you, Mr. President.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll assign a number for this image.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  Your Honours, do we have a 65 ter number for them

10     yet?

11             JUDGE KWON:  Not yet I don't think.

12             THE REGISTRAR:  Okay.  So number for two images would be P6472,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25                           [Private session]

Page 42328











11  Pages 42328-42335 redacted.  Private session.















Page 42336

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we are now in open session.

20             We'll collapse this document.

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  Could I have 65 ter 25455.

22        Q.   This is an easy one.  This is your declaration regarding your --

23     regarding Milenko Zivanovic, the Drina Corps commander's refusal to

24     testify.  And this is public.  Now, very briefly, this is your --

25        A.   Can I have it in Serbian?

Page 42337

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  There is no translation attached, Your Honours.

 2             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm sorry that the original's not there which was

 3     probably attached to the filing, if I can get a copy of that.

 4        Q.   I'll ask you generally, when you spoke -- and I'm not

 5     cross-examining you about every word on this.  When you spoke to

 6     Mr. Zivanovic, he refused to testify and you wrote that he explained the

 7     position by alleged threats from Muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina and Europe

 8     and pointed out that there was a price on his head.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, irrelevant.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Why irrelevant, Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Because this is impeachment of General Zivanovic.

12     It has nothing to do with the credibility --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

14             Mr. Savcic, could you kindly take off your headphones once again.

15             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  So we know there are rules for impeachment

17     of witnesses.  Those rules are that you put a statement to a witness:

18     Did you tell General Savcic that there was a bounty on your head.  And

19     then the witness either says yes or no.  If the witness says "yes,"

20     that's the end of it.  If the witness says "no," the party has the option

21     if they want to to call the person to whom the statement was made to

22     impeach them in their rebuttal case if that hadn't been anticipated.

23             So all those rules are being thrown out the window now and you're

24     allowing the Prosecution to ask about witnesses who haven't yet come to

25     testify to impeach those witnesses before they've even testified, and I

Page 42338

 1     don't see any basis for being able -- the Prosecution being able to do

 2     that.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson -- I'm sorry, Mr. Nicholls.

 4             MR. NICHOLLS:  Well, I don't know what rule exactly Mr. Robinson

 5     is speaking about, but I don't know of any rule that says that when an

 6     investigator spoke to a witness who's coming up I can't ask him what the

 7     witness told him.  Mr. Robinson is trying to put forward some sort of

 8     convoluted procedure where we would have to -- having General Savcic, the

 9     chief investigator, who spoke to Mr. -- General Zivanovic and said he

10     received death threats, not be allowed to ask him what those are, then

11     put it to Mr. -- to General Zivanovic when he testifies were there these

12     death threats, yes or no, and then re-call and go back and try to ask

13     Mr. Savcic to explain what those were.

14             He's filed a declaration saying that Mr. Zivanovic stated to him

15     that there were death threats on his head, there was a price on his head,

16     and Mr. Savcic continues to say it's his belief that Mr. Zivanovic was

17     instructed not to testify.  So I think I'm perfectly entitled to ask what

18     these death threats were so that we know about them so I can decide

19     whether and how to put them to Mr. Zivanovic if and when he testifies,

20     and should be allowed to also ask who instructed him not to testify.  And

21     that seems to me very basic and I don't know why the Defence would think

22     they should be -- that there's something wrong with them filing something

23     with the Court saying the witness was subjected to death threats, and

24     when they bring the witness here who took that -- wrote that declaration,

25     I'm not allowed to ask him about it.

Page 42339

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 3             This testimony may very well be completely inadmissible if

 4     General Zivanovic confirms the material, just like many times the

 5     Prosecution witnesses confirmed things that were written in reports of

 6     their interviews and that was not necessary for us to call the

 7     investigator to repeat what the witness had allegedly said to them.  So

 8     the fact is that this is premature and is very -- may very well be that

 9     this testimony from General Savcic would be inadmissible.  So it

10     shouldn't be allowed at this stage.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  As in the previous case, we agree with Mr. Nicholls.

13     He's entitled to put those questions.

14             Please go ahead.

15             Mr. Savcic, yes, thank you.

16             MR. NICHOLLS:

17        Q.   Okay.  What were the death threats to General Zivanovic that he

18     told you about?  Who was threatening to kill him if he came to The Hague?

19        A.   He told me literally:  There is a group of Muslim extremists in

20     Vienna which put a price on his head, and it is said that whoever brought

21     his head on a platter would receive that much gold.  This is his problem

22     about testifying here and that's why he doesn't want to appear before

23     this Tribunal.

24        Q.   Did he say how he knew or who it was that were going to pay gold

25     for his head on a platter in Vienna?

Page 42340

 1        A.   No, I did not insist on an answer to that.

 2        Q.   Okay.  Now, at the bottom of your declaration - I'm not going to

 3     ask you about your beliefs on whether those were justified or not, his

 4     reasons - but you said, and don't worry about the exact wording, that

 5     he'd been instructed to refuse to testify.  How do you conclude that

 6     somebody had instructed General Zivanovic not to testify in The Hague?

 7             THE ACCUSED:  I think that it should be verbatim translate --

 8     presented.  "I believe," he said, and it was out.

 9             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's fine.

10        Q.   That's correct, that you believed he'd been instructed not to

11     testify, so same question.  What makes you believe that he'd been

12     instructed not to testify by somebody or some people?

13        A.   If there is no real reason that would prevent a man to appear as

14     a witness, then there must be a different reason, another reason which

15     may be imaginary or something else.  This is my conclusion and I

16     suggested that he should be called as a witness.

17        Q.   Okay.  So just so I understand you.  You couldn't think of any

18     real reason why he wouldn't want to testify, so that was your basis for

19     believing that he must have been instructed not to; right?

20        A.   The interpretation was as follows:  That I knew of the reasons.

21     Actually, I didn't understand what the real reason was for which --

22        Q.   Let me --

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness received a wrong

24     interpretation --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 42341

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- that he didn't know for what

 2     reason the witness would have wanted to testify, so he cannot provide a

 3     correct answer based on an erroneous interpretation.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If you could repeat your question.

 5             MR. NICHOLLS:  That's what I was going to suggest.

 6        Q.   I think you got a wrong interpretation.  So if I understood you

 7     correctly, you weren't convinced by the death threats, you couldn't think

 8     of any "real" reason why he would refuse to testify.  That was the basis

 9     for your belief that he must have been instructed not to testify; is that

10     right?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You're through, Mr. Nicholls?

14             MR. NICHOLLS:  Yes, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

16             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, Excellency, but I do hope I will complete it

17     before the break.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] General, sir, you were asked --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let's look at P00168.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   You wanted to say something about the heading of this document,

24     but Mr. Nicholls kindly left it to me.  Can you please tell us whether

25     this is a printer -- teleprinter form or what did you want to say about

Page 42342

 1     the heading?

 2        A.   This is not a teleprinter format.  This was done on an ordinary

 3     typing machine, and as far as the heading is concerned, I wanted to say

 4     that the heading reads the IKM which stands for the forward command post

 5     of the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment.  I wanted to say that.  In

 6     formal terms, the forward command post of the protection regiment in the

 7     sector of Borike did not exist throughout the operation and it didn't

 8     exist for a very simple reason, for a single reason, because I was the

 9     only member of the command in that area and on that axis.  So it was

10     impossible to set up a command post which would consist of only one man.

11     By definition, one knows what a command post is or what it should be.

12             Second of all, this document, as you can see, was not registered

13     anywhere, it was not signed.  It sounds incredible to me that any of the

14     communications guys would dare process such a document.  I could speak to

15     that Gojkovic.  I could have agreed anything with Malinic, but it never

16     occurred to me.  I simply cannot understand, especially in view of my war

17     authority that I enjoyed, that somebody would have dared to take a paper

18     with my name on it without being sure that I was actually the author of

19     the document.  I don't think that anybody would have dared to process and

20     send such a document.

21        Q.   General, sir, is it customary that between P and

22     lieutenant-colonel -- first of all, what was your rank at the time, were

23     you a colonel or a lieutenant-colonel in July 1995?

24        A.   In July 1995 I was a lieutenant-colonel, and this is written as

25     P Colonel without a full stop, as PPUK.

Page 42343

 1        Q.   Since this is not a teleprinter format, what would be the reason

 2     for the lack of signature on this document?

 3        A.   I absolutely don't know why.  I don't know who would have done

 4     that.  Just a while ago we were asking -- we were talking about the

 5     credibility of the monograph of the 8th OG.  I have my doubts about that.

 6     And this is very similar to that.

 7        Q.   Can you please tell us about the contents of this document.  You

 8     also tried to say that but then Mr. Nicholls delayed that for my

 9     additional questions.  What did you want to say about the contents?  What

10     is the nature of the contents?  Is there something illegal or unlawful in

11     the contents of this document?

12        A.   In the contents of this document there is nothing unlawful.  If

13     you will allow me, I would like to go through the document bullet point

14     by bullet point.  Under bullet point 1 it says:

15             "Prohibit access to all uninvited persons, taking photos of

16     prisoners."

17             In theory and in practice of any army uninvited persons are all

18     those who are not members of a particular unit.  There is no exception to

19     that rule.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can I interrupt you just for a moment.  Do you know

21     or do you remember, since you were near Zepa, whether the media were

22     present during the evacuation of civilians from Zepa?  What media and on

23     what basis?  Were they uninvited or were they invited and were given a

24     permit?

25        A.   I know that in Zepa our local media were present as well as

Page 42344

 1     representatives of some foreign media, but only those who were accredited

 2     and whose presence was approved during those activities.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Please continue.  But briefly.  Could you comment all

 4     the four bullet points.

 5        A.   In a nutshell I draw your attention to the bullet point securing

 6     combat under the rules of the brigade, rules of the corps, and the

 7     strategy of combat.  These measures are provided for as obligatory

 8     measures that had to be undertaken in all combat activities.  They are

 9     even undertaken in peace time by all the militaries of the world.  If I

10     wrote this, if I forwarded this, in no event did this point to a plan or

11     an intention to do something else to the prisoners, save for what is

12     stated here.  If anybody had sent this document to me, I would have done

13     what it says here, i.e., that prisoners should be sheltered, that would

14     be the end of it.

15             As for the engagement of the military police, it is a normal task

16     of the military police in war time to control certain sectors, movements

17     through the men, and similar things.  So all of these bullet points are

18     absolutely in keeping with rules of combat, those that were in effect at

19     that time.  And they don't reveal any hidden agenda.  Even as I read them

20     today I can conclude the same.

21             Unmanned aircraft has been mentioned here on several occasions.

22     Let me share with you my personal experience.  On several occasions I was

23     targeted by enemy artillery on the co-ordinates that were provided by

24     unmanned aircraft, especially by Croatian artillery.  If I had any means,

25     I would have neutralised such unmanned aircraft without any hesitation.

Page 42345

 1        Q.   My last question about this document:  Is there a teleprinter

 2     format?  Did you ever see it?  Is there anywhere a teleprinter format of

 3     this document?

 4        A.   I did not see the teleprinter format of this text.  I don't know

 5     whether it's in existence anywhere.

 6        Q.   If it existed, would that be the confirmation that it was

 7     dispatched?

 8        A.   Absolutely, it would mean that the document was sent in its form.

 9        Q.   Now I would like to ask for a document to be placed on the ELMO.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise to the Prosecutor, but

11     it does arise from the cross-examination.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Could we see the title.

13             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, could we -- sorry, could we just see the

14     ERN.  Thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED:  Unfortunately, I can't activate my ELMO, but -- ah,

17     yeah.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   General, sir, did you receive this order by General Mladic which

20     mostly refers to your protection regiment?  It was sent on the 4th of

21     July, 1995.

22        A.   I'm sure I did.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell the Trial Chamber - it seems that there

24     is no translation unless Mr. Nicholls can produce it from a hat - can you

25     tell us how come the soldiers had to go to Han Pijesak to make telephone

Page 42346

 1     calls?  How far were you from Han Pijesak?  What were communication

 2     opportunities like at that time?

 3        A.   The distance between the staff and Han Pijesak is about 6 to 7

 4     [Realtime transcript read in error "67"] kilometres.  Most of the

 5     communication or road went through a densely wooded area.  From July 1992

 6     throughout the war we had occasional attacks on that road and ambushes

 7     were set by the enemy.  I believe that this was issued on the 4th of

 8     July, 1995, immediately after the all-out attack which happened on the

 9     26th of June and targeted the command post.  What was envisaged here is a

10     restricted movement procedure in order to have full control and prevent

11     surprises.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now go to the second page.

13             JUDGE KWON:  By "staff," what did you mean, Mr. Savcic?  You

14     said:

15             "... between the staff and Han Pijesak is about 67 kilometres."

16             THE INTERPRETER:  It was 6 to 7, Your Honours, the interpreter

17     notes.

18             JUDGE KWON:  So 6 to 7 kilometres.  "Staff" meant Crna Rijeka?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, it meant Crna Rijeka.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Why did General Mladic issue an order for people to move in

23     smaller groups and on foot to Han Pijesak, that the soldiers would be let

24     to go there.  Could they make private telephone calls from Han Pijesak?

25        A.   Yes, a post office was operational.  I had just one telephone

Page 42347

 1     line, but that was not sufficient for all the soldiers to call their

 2     parents.  And as for going there on foot, that was one of the security

 3     measures because the enemy could be discovered if one moved on foot.

 4     Vehicles are more easily ambushed than soldiers moving on foot.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

 7             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm not sure how he might tie it up, but I don't

 8     see how soldiers walking from Han Pijesak to Crna Rijeka to call their

 9     parents arises from my cross.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Are they not all related to the way in which

11     telegrams could be sent, those communications?

12             MR. NICHOLLS:  I don't really -- it may be, that's why I said if

13     he ties it up.  But Crni Rijeka to Han Pijesak and walking there because

14     it's dangerous to make a phone call, I don't see how that ties up at all.

15             THE ACCUSED:  Your Excellency, you are completely right, but

16     another reason why I'm showing this document is going to be clarified

17     with the next question of mine.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Let us see.  Please continue.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   How do we know, General, that this was received at the command of

21     the 65th Protection Regiment?

22        A.   Is this the second page?  On the second page in the lower

23     left-hand corner there is a stamp that says "Command of the 65th

24     Motorised Protection Regiment," strictly confidential 3951, the 5th of

25     July, so it does have a stamp of receipt.  It arrived at the regiment and

Page 42348

 1     the commander has been made aware of it and takes measures in accordance

 2     with it.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us why this travelled from the 4th until

 4     the 5th and whether it has anything to do with the fact that this is not

 5     teleprinter either.  How did this travel in order to arrive at

 6     headquarters only on the 5th?

 7        A.   This is regular mail.  It goes once a day via courier from the

 8     staff administration, also at the protection regiment but they also work

 9     for the Main Staff.  Very rarely it would happen that telegrams - it's

10     only if they were extremely urgent - would be sent the very same instant

11     when they were written up from the Main Staff to the protection regiment.

12     In my practice it happened only once and that was the night between the

13     26th and the 26th [as interpreted] of June when sometime in the morning,

14     around 4.00, the courier from the Main Staff brought me some intelligence

15     that required urgent instantaneous action.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted for

18     identification, Excellencies?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

20             Just a second --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] [Overlapping speakers] ... were

22     asked --

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Document receives number D3926, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  MFI.

25             Yes, please continue.

Page 42349

 1             MR. NICHOLLS:  Sorry, no objection.  Could I just see the

 2     original for a moment -- not the original but the copy.

 3             THE ACCUSED:  Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You were asked about the fate of Mr. Nuhanovic.  Did you have an

 6     opportunity to establish whether there was any personal revenge and

 7     whether some people suffered on that basis?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Have a faith, please.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- how --

11             THE ACCUSED:  Have a faith.  I'll show.

12             JUDGE KWON:  How does it arise from the cross-examination?

13             THE ACCUSED:  Because General Savcic was asked about Nuhanovic's

14     testimony, and I have some document that is implying something that I

15     can't say before General answers.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             Yes, Mr. Nicholls.

18             MR. NICHOLLS:  My objection was just leading.  It was a very

19     leading question.

20             JUDGE KWON:  If you could rephrase your question.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   General, sir, what was the situation in terms of personal

24     relations in relation to crimes on both sides in the area of Srebrenica?

25        A.   In relation to that, I can say that in that area -- actually,

Page 42350

 1     that I was in that area from July 1992 onwards, so throughout 1992, 1993.

 2     Very often with my unit I was there in that part of the territory and I

 3     know that already in July -- sorry, in January 1993 a girl who worked at

 4     the command of the Zvornik, or rather, no, the Bratunac Brigade had

 5     accurate records.  And until January 1993 there were already 1.200

 6     casualties, Serb victims I mean, in that area.  That is something that

 7     certainly had an influence and the Trial Chamber had an opportunity of

 8     visiting that area and seeing how short these distances are between

 9     Srebrenica, Bratunac, Milici.  People mainly knew each other, in 80

10     per cent of all cases, and they knew who did what.  So this possibility

11     and this danger was always there, and in some cases it was actually

12     materialised.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D43566, could we have that in

15     e-court, please.

16             JUDGE KWON:  While we are waiting for that document.

17             Mr. Robinson, the Defence is going to upload the previous

18     document which we marked for identification?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  Could we get the number again of the last

21     document?  It cannot be located.  Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D43566.  If necessary, it can be

23     put on the ELMO.  It's the last document and the last question and it

24     should be in e-court.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  The document is not available in e-court,

Page 42351

 1     Your Honours.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I ask for the ELMO then,

 3     please, just briefly.  It's one paragraph.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   General, sir, could you tell the Trial Chamber and the

 6     participants what this is and what the date is?

 7        A.   If I can see well -- now, is this the 1st of March, 1995?

 8     Bulletin of security-related events, Ministry of the Interior.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  It was signed by Milenko Karisik or someone signed it

10     for Karisik; right?

11        A.   Someone for Karisik.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

13     [In English] Next page, please.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Yes, it's the 8th of March.  Could you please read the first

16     paragraph.

17        A.   "The centre of public security of Zvornik" --

18        Q.   Just slower, please.

19        A.   "The centre of public security of Zvornik submitted a supplement

20     to the criminal report that the public security station in Skelani filed

21     against a group of Muslims because they were -- there were grounds for

22     suspicion to the effect that on the 10th of January, 1993, they committed

23     a war crime over several civilians and torched several houses in Serb

24     villages in the area of Skelani."

25             The supplement to the criminal report pertains to

Page 42352

 1     Nuhanovic, Hasan from Srebrenica who is in the group of Muslims who fled

 2     from Srebrenica to the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and there are

 3     grounds for suspicion that he participated in the above-mentioned crimes.

 4        Q.   Was there a crime on the 10th of January, 1993?  Were you

 5     informed about that?

 6        A.   Yes, I was informed.  On the 7th of January, 1993, I was urgently

 7     sent from the Main Staff to the area of Bratunac because of the attack on

 8     Kravica.  And immediately, a few days later, I was ordered to go on to

 9     Skelani because there were attacks there and the territory of the

10     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was already under threat.  I'm aware of

11     the crimes committed in all Serb villages during those days, that is,

12     east of Skelani, in the direction of Srebrenica.  I remember now Jezero

13     and some other villages.  Right now I cannot recall all their names.

14        Q.   Thank you.  Can you remember this document, this telegram, of

15     General Tolimir that was sent to you personally, as a matter of fact, and

16     you were not sure that it had arrived?  Do you remember that it is

17     written there -- or should we actually call it up?  That it is written

18     there that this list was handed over to Ibro Nuhanovic.

19             THE INTERPRETER:  By Ibro Nuhanovic, interpreter's note.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Ibro Nuhanovic and mentioned in

21     that telegram.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 42353

 1             THE ACCUSED:  If we can call this document.  Mr. Nicholls

 2     certainly knows what number is it.  Yeah, it is 65 ter 25399.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Exhibit P6471.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could it please be enlarged a bit,

 5     the Serbian version.

 6             THE ACCUSED:  [Microphone not activated]

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   I beg your pardon.  In paragraph 3 under number 2 it says:

 9             "The attached list was delivered by Mr. Ibro Nuhanovic (born in

10     1943)."

11             Is that what is written there?  We are going to see that.  Yes,

12     yes, it is written there, it is written in the English translation too.

13        A.   Yes, yes, it says by Mr. Ibro Nuhanovic.

14        Q.   Do you know who is the father of Hasan Nuhanovic, the person we

15     mentioned a moment ago?

16        A.   I don't know about that.

17        Q.   We have an AID document where it says that his father is

18     Ibro Nuhanovic, but I'm not going to deal with that.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Is there anything that I haven't

20     tendered?  Can somebody help me on that?

21             MR. NICHOLLS:  I'm totally lost as to where this is supposed to

22     be going.  Ibro Nuhanovic who I referred to in my cross, father's name

23     was Hasan, according to the records.  So I don't know what the point of

24     this was and the other document showing a Hasan Nuhanovic.  I don't see

25     how -- I would object to its admission because I don't see how it relates

Page 42354

 1     to my cross at all or has any relevance to anything.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I explain.  Ibro Nuhanovic is

 3     Hasan's son and his son is called Hasan, which is usual in our part of

 4     the world.  And we have an AID document where Hasan Nuhanovic gave an

 5     interview to the AID in 1995.  So that is the father, or rather, it is

 6     the grandfather, father, and grandson.  At least one of them killed

 7     civilians -- Serb civilians, and if we are discussing their fate, we have

 8     to bear that in mind as well.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             MR. NICHOLLS:  It's irrelevant and just overwhelmingly offensive

11     that -- what Mr. Karadzic is saying is that the murder of Ibro Nuhanovic

12     was somehow justified by some other crime by -- committed by some other

13     Nuhanovic I think is what he's trying to say.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, not justified.  I'm not

15     justifying anything.  I'm just trying to have us understand whether it

16     was the state that was killing people or whether killings happened

17     because of revenge.  I just want us to understand.  I'm not justifying

18     anything.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think Mr. Nicholls asked the witness about

20     the death of or murder of Mr. Ibro Nuhanovic itself, but the question was

21     whether he knew about his death, Mr. Savcic.  So I'm not sure this is

22     related to the cross-examination, but I'll consult my colleagues.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             JUDGE KWON:  So my position has been endorsed by my colleagues.

25     This is not related to the cross-examination.  We'll not admit this.

Page 42355

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you for everything, General, sir.  I have no further

 4     questions.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 6             Well, that concludes your evidence, Mr. Savcic.  Thank you for

 7     your testimony.  You are free to go.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

 9                           [The witness withdrew]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we resume at 1.35.

11                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.48 p.m.

12                           [The witness entered court]

13                           --- On resuming at 1.38 p.m.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness make the solemn declaration,

15     please.

16             Yes, before that, if the counsel assisting the witness could

17     introduce himself, please.

18             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you very much, Your Honour.  Slobodan Zecevic

19     appearing as duty counsel for Witness Kos.  Thank you very much.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Good afternoon, Mr. Zecevic.

21             Yes, Mr. Kos.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

23             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

24     and nothing but the truth.

25                           WITNESS:  FRANC KOS

Page 42356

 1                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kos.  Please be seated and make

 3     yourself comfortable.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you will be aware of this already, but

 6     before you commence your evidence, Mr. Kos, I must draw your attention to

 7     a certain rule of evidence we have here at the International Tribunal,

 8     that is Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to answering any

 9     question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecution, or even from the Judges if

10     you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a criminal offence.

11     In this context, "incriminate" means saying something that might amount

12     to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

13     might provide evidence that you might have committed a criminal offence.

14     However, should you think that an answer might incriminate you, as a

15     consequence you refuse to answer the question, I must let you know that

16     the Tribunal has the power to compel you to answer the question.  But in

17     that situation, the Tribunal would ensure that your testimony compelled

18     under such circumstances would not be used in any case that might be laid

19     against you for any offence, save and except the offence of giving false

20     testimony.  Do you understand what I have just told you, sir?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honours.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kos.

23             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

24                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

25        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Kos.

Page 42357

 1        A.   Good afternoon, Mr. President.

 2        Q.   Did you give a statement to my Defence team in the form of an

 3     interview?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please call up 1D09591.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   On the left-hand side please note whether this is the statement

 8     you gave to my assistant?

 9        A.   Yes, this is that statement.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Did you read and sign this statement?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Please make a pause between my question and your answer for the

13     sake of the interpreters.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

15     the last page for him to identify his signature, the last page in

16     Serbian, please.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Is this your signature?

19        A.   This is my signature, yes.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully reflect what you told

21     the Defence team?

22        A.   Yes, it does.

23        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

24     would your answers be essentially the same?

25        A.   Yes, the answers would be the same.

Page 42358

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I seek to tender

 2     this statement under Rule 92 ter.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Any objections, Mr. Mitchell?

 4             MR. MITCHELL:  No objection, Mr. President.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D3927, Your Honours.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I will now read out a

 9     short summary of the statement given by Mr. Franc Kos in English.

10             [In English] Franc Kos, a Slovenian national, was a member of the

11     10th Sabotage Detachment of the Army of Republika Srpska in July 1995.

12             The 10th Sabotage Detachment participated in the events after the

13     fall of Srebrenica on three occasions.  On 11th of July, 1995, they

14     entered Srebrenica and helped secure the town.  On 13th of July, 1995,

15     they went to the warehouse at Kravica where Muslim prisoners had been

16     killed.  And on 16th of July, 1995, they went to Branjevo Farm, where

17     they participated in the execution of Muslim prisoners from Srebrenica,

18     prisoners of war.

19             During his time at the Kravica warehouse, Mr. Kos observed about

20     20 corpses outside the warehouse.  He was told that a Muslim prisoner of

21     war had grabbed a gun from a guard and started shooting and that the

22     prisoners had been killed when those guarding them returned fire.  While

23     they were at the Kravica warehouse, one member of the 10th Sabotage

24     Detachment threw grenades into the warehouse.  Mr. Kos did not see any

25     corpses in the warehouse but estimated that the warehouse could hold no

Page 42359

 1     more than 120 prisoners.

 2             Mr. Kos personally participated in the execution of prisoners at

 3     Branjevo Farm.  He estimates that approximately 350 men were shot at

 4     Branjevo Farm on 16th of July, 1995.  They were told that the prisoners

 5     had to be shot because they were war criminals.

 6             Mr. Kos and the members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment never had

 7     the intention to destroy the Muslims as a religious group in whole or in

 8     part.  The 10th Sabotage Detachment was made up of men from different

 9     religious and national groups.

10             Mr. Kos has been convicted of crimes against humanity by the

11     Court of Bosnia and Herzegovina and sentenced to 35 years in prison.  He

12     and the two other members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment were acquitted

13     for genocide.

14             And that is the summary.  At that moment, I do not have questions

15     for Mr. Kos.

16             JUDGE KWON:  As you have noted, Mr. Kos, your evidence in chief

17     in this case has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written

18     witness statement.  And now you'll be cross-examined by the

19     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.

20             Do you understand that, sir?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand that.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell.

23             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

24                           Cross-examination by Mr. Mitchell:

25        Q.   Mr. Kos, let me pick up where Mr. Karadzic left off, that you

Page 42360

 1     were convicted of crimes against humanity by the state court.

 2     Zoran Goronja and Stanko Kojic were also convicted of crimes against

 3     humanity for their participation in the Branjevo Farm executions, weren't

 4     they, in the same trial as you?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   And Vlastimir Golijan, who was another member of the 10th

 7     Sabotage Detachment at Branjevo Farm, pled guilty in the state court for

 8     the Branjevo Farm executions, didn't he?

 9        A.   Yes, he did.

10        Q.   And Marko Boskic also pled guilty to the Branjevo Farm executions

11     in the state court?

12        A.   Yes, but later on he denied some facts.

13        Q.   Right.  And Drazen Erdemovic was convicted of murder by this

14     Tribunal; right?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And Aleksandar Svetkovic is currently under arrest in Israel and

17     waiting to be extradited to Bosnia, isn't he?

18        A.   That's what I heard.

19        Q.   So of the eight members of the 10th Sabotage Detachment who were

20     at Branjevo Farm, six have been convicted and one is currently under

21     arrest.  There's only one who hasn't been arrested yet and that's

22     Brano Gojkovic; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Well, let's go straight to Branjevo Farm on the 16th of July,

25     1995.  You went there that day and you had your own personal combat set

Page 42361

 1     with 150 bullets in it, didn't you?

 2        A.   Yes, that was my personal combat set.

 3        Q.   And you told Mr. Karadzic's lawyer in your interview that you

 4     also had a reserve personal combat set; right?

 5        A.   Yes, but it was in my trunk, that is, an ammunition case.

 6        Q.   Okay.  A combat set has 150 bullets in it; right?

 7        A.   Yes.  These are four clips in the wrap and one fastened to the

 8     rifle.  Each clip holds 30 rounds.

 9        Q.   And each of the other seven members of the

10     10th Sabotage Detachment who you were with also would have had a personal

11     combat set and a reserve combat set, wouldn't they?

12        A.   Yes, they had their personal combat sets, and there was only one

13     ammunition case in the trunk.  I only saw it when we arrived at the

14     Branjevo Farm.  When you go into action, you always carry reserve ammo.

15        Q.   And that reserve crate in the back of the van had 1200 automatic

16     rifle bullets in it, didn't it?

17        A.   Yes, that's the standard quantity in a crate.

18        Q.   And in the back of the van there was also an M84 machine-gun that

19     had its own crate of 1200 bullets; right?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   And that M84 machine-gun was used to kill some of the prisoners;

22     right?

23        A.   Yes, for the first group.

24        Q.   Now, Stanko Kojic, who's also known as Stanko Sevanovic [phoen],

25     he had a handgun with him that he used to kill some of the prisoners too;

Page 42362

 1     right?

 2        A.   Yes, Stanko Kojic had his personal pistol M57 TT, calibre 7.62

 3     millimetres.

 4        Q.   Okay.  Now, in your interview with Mr. Karadzic's lawyer you said

 5     that you only used about four clips of ammunition, so about 120 bullets;

 6     right?

 7        A.   Yes, four clips and the fifth was half empty.

 8        Q.   Okay.  And you said - this is at page 47 in English and the B/C/S

 9     page 21 - that:

10             "I didn't use additional charges.  I don't know about the

11     others."

12             So you don't know how many of all that other ammunition that was

13     at Branjevo Farm that day was used by the other members of your unit;

14     right?

15        A.   I don't know.  I can only speak about myself.

16        Q.   Now, there was another unit of about 10 to 12 soldiers from

17     Bratunac who came to the farm during the afternoon, didn't they?

18        A.   Yes.  They arrived when we were done executing the prisoners.

19        Q.   And they had -- that unit had their own weapons and their own

20     ammunition; right?

21        A.   Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that in line 19 "when we

25     were done" is not a good translation.  "When we seized" or "when we

Page 42363

 1     stopped" would be better.  "When we were done" implies that we had

 2     completed the job.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 4             Yes, please continue.

 5             MR. MITCHELL:

 6        Q.   And this unit from Bratunac also abused some of the prisoners,

 7     didn't they?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Can you describe what they did to those prisoners before shooting

10     them?

11        A.   Well, when they came to the farm we were sitting and they first

12     started yelling at us - how shall I put it? - that we were impertinent,

13     irresponsible, cowards, traitors because we had stopped shooting the

14     prisoners.  And then they started taking the prisoners to the field.

15     They singled out one and chased him around with a metal bar.  And there

16     was another on whom they took out their anger, beating him and so on.  I

17     suppose they knew him from before.  We were sitting round and watching,

18     the whole group, the entire group from the 10th Sabotage Detachment that

19     was there.

20        Q.   I'd like to play you a short video and get your comments on it.

21     If I can play Exhibit P4306 starting at 5 minutes and 4 seconds.

22                           [Video-clip played]

23             "11.04, recognise the farm ..."

24             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can just pause there for a moment, 5 minutes

25     and 30 seconds.

Page 42364

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  The interpreters haven't

 2     been provided with a transcript of that and the quality is poor.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] [Previous translation continues]...

 4     executed.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your question and answer, please.

 6     It was overlapped with the interpreter's notation.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:

 8        Q.   Mr. Kos, if you could just repeat your answer.  I asked you if

 9     you recognised this location.

10        A.   Yes, I recognise it.  It's the Branjevo Farm.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  If we could keep playing.

12                           [Video-clip played]

13             "... search for shell casings.  It's Thursday, the 30th, it's

14     1430, here we are still at the [indiscernible] farm, and we are now near

15     the garages, if you look across the meadow.  If we now walk this meadow

16     to look for spent cartridge cases purely on the surface of this ploughed

17     field, and we've marked those that we've found with a yellow marker.

18     Measurements and -- measurements of the area in which we've found

19     cartridges and the number of cartridges I'll provide when I walk there."

20             MR. MITCHELL:  If I could pause there for a moment.

21        Q.   So what we were just looking at there was the path where the

22     prisoners walked towards the killing site; right?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   And that's at 6 minutes, 15 seconds.  We can keep playing.

25                           [Video-clip played]

Page 42365

 1             "Okay.  I've now walked about 25 to 30 metres to the rear of this

 2     garage area, and I'm standing more or less in the middle of the track

 3     that we cut when we walked down.  And all the yellow markers can be seen

 4     stretching across the field.  We've walked the field for maybe 200

 5     metres, but as I say the proper measurement will be provided.

 6             "Okay.  Here I am.  I've walked on a few wards.  And now I just

 7     give an idea of what it is exactly that we found that we were looking

 8     for.  Exactly this type of thing, and this type of thing here.

 9             "Okay.  I'm now maybe 3 -- 300 metres or so further out along

10     this ploughed field from the back of those garages.  And this area here,

11     and this one and ones over there and panning back, this is the -- more or

12     less the extent of any numbers of shells, although there is one right out

13     there.  Incidentally, we've found three different types of shell casing,

14     shells that looked like machine-gun shells, AK shells, and one pistol

15     shell."

16             MR. MITCHELL:  If I can stop there.

17        Q.   Mr. Kos, the area that the investigator has been walking over and

18     filming the cartridges, that's the area of the execution site, isn't it?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And you heard or he pointed out that there were M84 cartridges,

21     automatic rifle cartridges, and a pistol cartridge.  That's consistent

22     with what you've said, that there were automatic rifles and M84 and

23     Stanko Sevanovic had a pistol; right?

24        A.   Yes, only those were not M48 rifle cartridges but rather M84

25     machine-gun cartridges, whereas M48 is an old rifle also known as Mauzer.

Page 42366

 1        Q.   And just where the camera stopped here, this is the spot where

 2     the investigator said the cartridges basically ran out.  So we're at this

 3     image here at 8 minutes and 22 seconds.  That's the edge of the execution

 4     site there, right, to the best of your recollection?

 5        A.   That's not the edge of the execution site.  I can explain.  This

 6     is the so-called field which was ploughed.  While the land was tilled,

 7     the cartridges were probably moved.  When you plough, then the cartridges

 8     can be scattered all over the field.  And the first executions from the

 9     M84 machine-gun when about 20 people were executed took place by this

10     large bush in this slight depression.  That was the only group that was

11     executed with an M84 machine-gun.

12        Q.   Okay.  So the executions started a bit further down the field

13     where we can see those -- the trees on the right-hand side?

14        A.   Yes, in this depression down there.

15             MR. MITCHELL:  Okay.  If I can have P4305 in e-court.

16        Q.   What you're about to see, Mr. Kos, is an aerial image of

17     Branjevo Farm on 17 July 1995, the day after the executions.  And you can

18     see there the bodies of the prisoners that are still on the surface

19     are -- stretch almost back to the garage; correct?

20        A.   Yes, but just a moment.  This photograph was not taken on the

21     17th of July.  This one was taken on the 16th because as of 700 hours on

22     the 17th of July, machines were being used there.  Now, either this

23     photograph is wrong or all the witnesses in the BH state court lied.  On

24     the 17th they said that they were burying the bodies at the

25     Branjevo Farm.  And if you could show the admin building, you will see a

Page 42367

 1     bus parked there.  That bus transported the prisoners.

 2        Q.   Well, Mr. Kos, I don't think there's any dispute here that on the

 3     17th of July those bodies that you can see were in the process of being

 4     buried.  We can agree on that, right, that the burials happened on the

 5     17th of July?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Okay.  I want to ask you now about the number of buses that came

 8     to the Branjevo Farm on the 16th of July with prisoners on board.  Now,

 9     do you remember in May 2010 you were interviewed by Mr. Tomasz Blaszczyk,

10     an investigator with this Tribunal?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And you understood that the purpose of that interview was to find

13     out about your role in the Srebrenica operation, and particularly at

14     Branjevo Farm?

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   And you understood the seriousness of the inquiries that were

17     being made and how important it was to tell the truth during that

18     interview?

19        A.   Yes.

20             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can have 65 ter 25482 in e-court.  Page 90

21     in the English and page 64 in the B/C/S.

22        Q.   And what you're about to see, Mr. Kos, is a transcript of your

23     interview with Mr. Blaszczyk.

24             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can have page 64 in the B/C/S.

25        Q.   And you can see there, Mr. Kos, in the transcript you say:

Page 42368

 1             "Up until the fifth or sixth bus, people who were brought did not

 2     have either their eyes or their hands tied, they were not blindfolded,

 3     and they didn't -- they were not hand tied."

 4             You were then asked how many buses came after that sixth bus and

 5     you said:

 6             "All together, at the period of time that we were up there, some

 7     ten buses arrived.  With the 11th bus, some other people also came, and

 8     they with that 11th bus some soldiers came who immediately took people

 9     out and took them to the field and they killed them on their own ..."

10             And if we go over to the next page in English, you say:

11             "When they arrived I think that we after that shot only one bus

12     of people and they continued to shoot the others ..."

13             So in this interview you said up to the 11th bus you were

14     shooting and then the other unit is the unit from Bratunac, they took

15     over and they shot the other buses; right?

16        A.   I can't say just yes or no.  I have to explain.  I as a

17     participant in all that, I never considered those acts that I had

18     committed because I knew I would be arrested sooner or later, so I didn't

19     give it a second thought.  When I was arrested, I did give an interview

20     but I never reflected on the number of buses.  Later on, when I saw the

21     number of buses, when I observed the executions and what was going on, I

22     realised that not more than seven and a half or eight and a half buses

23     arrived at Branjevo.  The first bus when it arrived and when it was said

24     that they were POWs that had to be executed, and when I returned to the

25     place from which the buses came, and when half of the men were taken out

Page 42369

 1     of the buses, that half was executed with an M84 machine-gun and a lot of

 2     them were wounded.  And about 25 people were then executed with automatic

 3     rifles.  Those people were tied, the first group.  The second group an

 4     argument broke out.  I didn't hear what Gojkovic said to Erdemovic and

 5     Erdemovic then replied:  "I can't do that."  They quarrelled and then

 6     they left.

 7             Then I approached Erdemovic and I told him -- Erdemovic's

 8     nickname was Djino.  I told him:  "Djino, shut up, otherwise they'll kill

 9     us too.  Can you not see what's going on?"  And then we went back.  And

10     later on when I saw how many wounded there were, I approached the three

11     or four that -- whose intestines I saw protruding from their stomach,

12     they were wailing and crying, then I approached them and shot them in the

13     heads to kill them.  And then I said:  "People, we can't do it like

14     this."  Then somebody said:  "We can't do it this way.  We will execute

15     them in groups of ten."  That's what happened with the second bus.

16             When the third bus arrived, it occurred to somebody, I don't know

17     who it was, to ask money from them.  They asked them if they had money or

18     if they had relatives abroad.  They singled out a lad to tell them

19     whether he had money.  And when the fourth bus arrived that lad was still

20     there, or rather, when the fifth bus arrived I was sitting in one of

21     those buildings and there was a man there.  He was one of the detainees.

22     He was a butcher in Srebrenica, that's what he told me.  I had a word

23     with him while some two groups were taken to be executed by the other

24     members.

25             When the sixth bus arrived we stopped shooting people.  I know

Page 42370

 1     when I returned and when the sixth bus arrived somebody said that we had

 2     to hurry-up because some people wanted to break through and we were told

 3     that nobody must remain alive.  It's a bit bizarre, but then I realised

 4     that there was a way out.  I said:  "I can't go on."  We were thirsty, we

 5     were hungry, we went up to that building and we sat down there.  At that

 6     moment another bus came and those people who continued executing the

 7     prisoners got out of the bus.  We were tired and somebody didn't like the

 8     fact that we shot short bursts of fire into groups of ten people and that

 9     we shot them in the back of the head.  Somebody must have been in a hurry

10     and we obviously didn't do things quickly enough.

11        Q.   Okay.  So as you sit here today, is it your evidence that you

12     made a mistake when you were interviewed when you said that you shot up

13     to 11 buses and then another unit took over and did the remaining buses?

14     That was a mistake when you said 11 buses, was it?

15        A.   I'm not saying this today [as interpreted].  I testified to the

16     same effect when I testified in the BiH court.  I provided the same

17     statement when I testified on my own behalf.

18        Q.   No, I understand that.  But I'm asking you in 2010 when you gave

19     an interview to Mr. Blaszczyk, you said that you shot up to 11 buses and

20     then that the other unit took over and shot the remaining ones.  So

21     you've changed your testimony now or you've changed your evidence from 11

22     plus the other unit shooting some more down to seven.  You've changed it;

23     right?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. MITCHELL:  Okay if we can have 65 ter 25481 in e-court.  Page

Page 42371

 1     33 in both the English and the B/C/S.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Perhaps it's not that important;

 5     however, on line 12 the witness said -- [In English] "I'm not saying this

 6     only today." "Only" is missing.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kos, you said just on the previous page you provided the same

10     statement when I testified on my own behalf.  You were interviewed by the

11     Prosecutor at the state court before you testified, weren't you?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Okay.  And we can see in this interview which is on the screen in

14     front of you, we can go to page 33 in both -- you can see there in this

15     interview you said you counted up to seven buses.  And then after that

16     the buses started to come quicker and quicker.  So when the state court

17     prosecutor interviewed you, you said you counted up to seven and then

18     there were more buses that came quicker and quicker.  So that's another

19     different answer from what you're saying today, isn't it?

20        A.   Just a moment.  There's something missing here.  I said, or

21     rather, Erdemovic said 1200 in the first statement provided to

22     Tomasz Blaszczyk.  I never mentioned the number of people either to

23     Tomasz Blaszczyk or here.  It was Erdemovic.  Erdemovic stated that there

24     were 1200 men --

25        Q.   One second, Mr. Kos.  One second.

Page 42372

 1        A.   -- and now I'm looking at the figure 500.

 2        Q.   No, one second.  Just above that we're talking about the buses,

 3     the number of buses, not the number of people.  We'll come to that.  All

 4     I'm saying is in this interview you said you counted up to seven.

 5             "We were down there another hour and a half but the buses were

 6     coming quicker and quicker later."

 7             Now, that's a different answer about the number of buses than you

 8     gave Mr. Blaszczyk and it's a different number than what you've said here

 9     today, isn't it?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But I have to intervene.  It

11     doesn't say "faster and faster."  Perhaps this changes the meaning and

12     perhaps this confuses the witness.  It doesn't say "faster and faster."

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Just a moment.  Perhaps things got

14     confused here.  I said that they started shouting that we had to execute

15     them faster and faster.  This may be the source of the confusion.  When

16     the sixth bus arrived, we were told that we were proceeding too slowly,

17     that we should go faster.  And another group arrived, so another bus

18     followed.  Two buses arrived almost simultaneously.  We slowed down to

19     the extent that two other buses came in.  That's why probably someone

20     meant that it should go faster and faster.  Either it was mistranslated

21     or wrongly recorded.  When the sixth bus arrived, we received an order to

22     proceed faster and then we stopped.  We didn't continue.  Another group

23     took over.

24             MR. MITCHELL:

25        Q.   Well, maybe you can read out, Mr. Kos, starting from line 10, if

Page 42373

 1     you can read that out in the original language and we'll listen to the

 2     translation and see if there was a mistake.  You see where it starts at

 3     line 10?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   If you could read out those three lines.

 6        A.   I think that this part -- yes.

 7             "It's a shame.  I counted up to seven, because in the first five

 8     or six buses the people were tied up and then the sixth bus came in."

 9             It matches.  I said "seven buses," that is, six buses and a

10     seventh and the eighth was half full.  Overall, we're talking about --

11        Q.   Mr. Kos --

12        A.   -- a bus and another.

13        Q.   -- can I stop you there.  Can you read out, no commentary, just

14     what it says in lines 10, 11, and 12 just word for word what that says.

15        A.   Very well.

16             "I think it's a shame for me to say this.  I counted up to seven.

17     I counted to seven and later perhaps -- perhaps for another hour and a

18     half we were down there, but the buses kept on coming quicker and

19     quicker."

20             THE ACCUSED:  No "quicker and quicker," only one "quicker ."

21             MR. MITCHELL:

22        Q.   Well, my point is, Mr. Kos, that's a different answer than what

23     you told Mr. Blaszczyk and it's different to what you've said today,

24     isn't it?

25        A.   I don't understand what you mean.  What you mean when you say

Page 42374

 1     "different"?  I told you, the events happened a long time ago and then in

 2     2010 at first I couldn't remember all the details, I couldn't remember

 3     everything.  And then I started reflecting on things.  If I had been

 4     thinking about that, I would have had psychological problems and I did

 5     have them for the first year and a half.  That's when I was popping

 6     pills.  And then when I started thinking about what happened, how things

 7     happened, how many there were, then I remembered how things transpired.

 8        Q.   Okay.  Well, let's move to something related but slightly

 9     different.  You said in your interview with Mr. Karadzic's lawyer, this

10     is at page 42 in the English and 19 in the B/C/S, that there were only

11     two buses and they were rotating and bringing the prisoners from the

12     school to the farm; is that right?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Okay.  Well, I want to read you just three very short pieces of

15     evidence in this case and then I'll ask you a question.  This is from the

16     testimony of one of the survivors of the Branjevo Farm executions.  It's

17     Exhibit P4342 and T3040 in his prior testimony from the Krstic case.  And

18     he's talking about being led out of the Kula school, and he says:

19             "As we were leaving the school building, they told us to line up

20     against a wall, put our hands behind our backs, and this is where our

21     hands were tied.  Three buses were parked there and we climbed on to the

22     second bus.  There were three of us sitting in one row of seats and once

23     the buses were filled up they left."

24             And then he goes on to describe how the convoy of three buses

25     arrived at the Branjevo Farm at the same time.

Page 42375

 1             Now, the second piece of evidence is from the second survivor of

 2     the Branjevo Farm execution, Ahmo Hasic, and this is from Exhibit P354,

 3     where he says he remembered being brought out of the Kula school with

 4     other prisoners and being put on two buses that went to the Branjevo Farm

 5     at the same time.  So we've got a convoy of three buses and a convoy of

 6     two buses from the evidence of the two survivors.  Now, this is what

 7     Drazen Erdemovic said.

 8             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can have P6454 in e-court.  Page 1 in the

 9     English -- actually, page 2 in the English and 1 in the B/C/S.  My

10     apologies, 6451.

11        Q.   And what this is, Mr. Kos, is an interview with Drazen Erdemovic

12     that was published on the 22nd of March, 1996, so only about eight months

13     after the Branjevo Farm executions.  And you can see in that article,

14     it's in the second column in the original, where Drazen Erdemovic says

15     there were five buses with logos of Centrotrans and Drinatrans who were

16     driving civilians to the farm.  So isn't it the case that there were

17     actually five buses bringing prisoners to the farm that day.  There was a

18     convoy of three buses that would come at one time and then there was a

19     pair of buses that would come separately.  And these two groups were

20     rotating for the whole time you were there, ferrying prisoners from the

21     Kula school to the execution site?

22        A.   I can't confirm this.  I can't answer.  It was a long time ago --

23        Q.   You can't --

24        A.   A moment, a moment.  If there had been five buses, as you say,

25     first five and then three in a column --

Page 42376

 1        Q.   What I'm saying is --

 2        A.   -- we would not have had time --

 3        Q.   What I'm saying is --

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, he should be allowed to finish his

 5     answer, Mr. President.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:  I'm clarifying the question for him.

 7        Q.   I'm saying there's five in total.  There's a group of three and a

 8     group of two and those two groups rotate.  Now, 18 years later you can't

 9     exclude that there were five buses operating that day, can you?

10        A.   I can't tell you how many buses there were.  I was not in the

11     Kula school.  I was not in Pilica -- actually, it's one and the same.

12     There is only a 3-and-a-half-kilometre distance between the two as far as

13     I could see.  How many buses there were and what make they were I really

14     can't remember as I sit here today nor can I answer your question.

15        Q.   Okay.  Let's move to something slightly different.  You said --

16     or you saw an officer, a VRS officer at the Branjevo Farm that day who

17     you later learned was Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic; correct?

18        A.   Yes.  I learned that when the trial here in The Hague started,

19     when the lieutenant-colonel was put on trial.  I learned that he was the

20     officer who was at Branjevo, but I personally didn't know him.

21        Q.   Okay.  But when you saw him on trial you recognised that that was

22     the man you saw at Branjevo Farm that day, that was the officer you saw?

23        A.   Could you please repeat your question.  The -- are you asking me

24     about the officer who had brought us there or the officer who told us

25     that we should execute people?

Page 42377

 1        Q.   Sorry, let me clarify.  The officer who told you you should

 2     execute people, that was Lieutenant-Colonel Vujadin Popovic; correct?

 3        A.   I can't confirm that that was Vujadin Popovic because I don't

 4     know that officer.  I can describe him.  He was tall, his hair was not

 5     grey, his complexion was fair, and he was aged between 40 and 45.  That

 6     was the man who told us that we had to execute people.

 7        Q.   Okay.  Well, in your --

 8             THE ACCUSED:  Transcript.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that the witness said

11     that his hair was not completely grey.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Please continue.

15             MR. MITCHELL:

16        Q.   But there's no dispute that the officer who told you to execute

17     these prisoners was a VRS officer; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Now, in your interview with Mr. Karadzic's Defence lawyer, you

20     also said that you saw Dragan Obrenovic at Branjevo Farm on the 16th of

21     July, 1995.  Now, that's the first time you've ever mentioned

22     Dragan Obrenovic's [Realtime transcript read in error "Erdemovic"] name

23     in connection with these events, isn't it?

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, for transcript, are we talking about

25     Erdemovic or Obrenovic?

Page 42378

 1             MR. MITCHELL:  Obrenovic.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Line 15 should be corrected.

 3             MR. MITCHELL:

 4        Q.   So, Mr. Kos, is it right that you told Mr. Karadzic's Defence

 5     lawyer that you saw Dragan Obrenovic at Branjevo Farm?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kos, did you hear the question?

 7             MR. MITCHELL:

 8        Q.   If you're not sure or if you can't remember if you saw

 9     Dragan Obrenovic, we can move on.

10        A.   Yes, he was up there but he arrived in his own vehicle, but he

11     left in no time.  Once we arrived there, he left.

12        Q.   Right.  You didn't know who Dragan Obrenovic was at the time, did

13     you?

14        A.   No, I didn't.

15             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, is it reflected in his interview?

16             MR. MITCHELL:  It is.

17             JUDGE KWON:  At page -- could you give me the page number?

18             MR. MITCHELL:  I believe it's page 26 in the English.  It says:

19             "And the officer who had brought us there, Dragan Obrenovic, was

20     still present."

21             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

22             MR. MITCHELL:

23        Q.   So at the time on 16 July, you didn't know the name of the

24     officer who led you to the Branjevo Farm, did you?

25        A.   The officer who had brought us to Branjevo, and he was in a red

Page 42379

 1     Kadett vehicle, was not Dragan Obrenovic.  Dragan Obrenovic had a red

 2     Golf car and that was his personal vehicle, and he was in front of the

 3     Opel Kadett, and he was already there at Branjevo when we arrived.  When

 4     we arrived, he turned around in his car and he left.  He was a younger

 5     officer at the time and his behaviour was rather arrogant.  He was

 6     arrogant.

 7             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can go into private session for one moment,

 8     Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

10                           [Private session]

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 42380

 1   (redacted)

 2                           [Open session]

 3             MR. MITCHELL:

 4        Q.   Now, in 2004 --

 5             THE REGISTRAR:  We're in open session, Your Honours.

 6             MR. MITCHELL:

 7        Q.   In 2004 you were interviewed by an investigator with the

 8     Slovenian police, weren't you?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And that was the first time that you had been interviewed

11     formally by anyone about the events at Branjevo Farm; correct?

12        A.   How do you mean "formally"?  As a suspect or to make a statement?

13        Q.   I just mean it's the first time somebody had sat down with you

14     and asked you to explain exactly what happened at Branjevo Farm.  Not as

15     a suspect or formally as a witness.  It's just the first time you sat

16     down with someone and they asked you to explain those events.

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   And this might be an obvious question, but you'd agree that your

19     recollection about the events at Branjevo Farm would have been much

20     fresher, much better, ten years ago when you gave that statement?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And we can agree that it wasn't in any way whatsoever in your

23     interests to inflate or exaggerate the number of prisoners who were

24     killed by your unit at Branjevo Farm, was it?

25        A.   No.

Page 42381

 1        Q.   Okay.

 2             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can have 65 ter 25487 in e-court.  Page 1 in

 3     both the English and the B/C/S.

 4        Q.   What you're about to see, Mr. Kos, are the notes of the

 5     investigator who interviewed you in March 2004.  And we can see there

 6     he's noted down correctly your personal details and he's also noted

 7     correctly the false identification papers that you had with you at the

 8     time; correct?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And if you read down a little bit, he's correctly noted down the

11     circumstances under which you joined the Army of Bosnia and Herzegovina

12     and the manner in which you were arrested and spent time in solitary

13     confinement; correct?

14        A.   Just a moment.  Yes.

15        Q.   Okay.

16             MR. MITCHELL:  If we can go over to the second page in both

17     English and B/C/S.

18             I'll just finish with this document, Mr. President, in the next

19     minute or two.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

21             MR. MITCHELL:

22        Q.   You can see there he's correctly noted down the circumstances

23     under which you escaped prison and then ended up joining the VRS.  He's

24     got that right, hasn't he?

25        A.   Just a moment, let me read it.  Let me just read this.

Page 42382

 1        Q.   Sir, my question was, I'll just remind you:  He wrote down

 2     accurately the circumstances under which you escaped prison and then you

 3     joined the VRS?  He's got that right, hasn't he?

 4        A.   Yes, on the whole it's right.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And we can see he's got the names of the commanders of the

 6     10th Sabotage Detachment Zoran Manojlovic and then Milorad Pelemis.

 7     They're both correct, aren't they?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   And then if you look a little bit further down, maybe go over to

10     the next page on the B/C/S, and he correctly noted that on 16 July 1995

11     you received an order to go with seven members of the

12     10th Sabotage Detachment to the Branjevo Farm.  That's also correct,

13     isn't it?

14        A.   Yes -- well, no, actually.  No one mentioned Branjevo.  No,

15     that's not correct.  No one member of the group knew where we were going.

16     We were said [as interpreted] that we were supposed to guard the

17     prisoners.  Nobody mentioned Branjevo or Pilica.

18        Q.   But he's correctly recorded that you and seven other soldiers did

19     go to Branjevo Farm that day; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Okay.  And we see there that he's written down that you estimated

22     approximately 1.000 Muslims were killed at Pilica that day.  So he's

23     written down your estimate accurately there too, hasn't he?

24        A.   That's not correct.  It says here 50 buses.

25        Q.   I'm asking you about the number.  He wrote down:

Page 42383

 1             "According to his estimation, approximately 1.000 Muslims were

 2     killed at Pilica that day."

 3             So in 2004 that was your estimate, wasn't it?

 4        A.   Even then I said that Erdemovic stated that there had been 1.000

 5     to 1200 people.  I never said that we executed 1.000 to 1200 people.  I

 6     always said that that number was the estimate of Drazen Erdemovic.

 7        Q.   Okay.  But that's what you told the Slovenian investigator,

 8     wasn't it, during this interview?  You mentioned the figure of

 9     approximately 1.000 Muslims?

10        A.   Yes, but I referred to Erdemovic's statement there.

11             MR. MITCHELL:  This might be a good place to stop, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll adjourn for today and continue tomorrow

13     morning at 9.00.

14             Mr. Kos, you are advised not to discuss with anybody else about

15     your testimony while you are giving testimony.

16             The hearing is adjourned.

17                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.52 p.m.,

18                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 1st day of

19                           August, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.