Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 43358

 1                           Wednesday, 13 November 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.  I apologise for the delay.

 7     In light of the delay, we may be sitting to 3.00, if it is okay with the

 8     parties and the Registry.

 9             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

11     Your Excellencies.  Good morning, everyone.

12                           WITNESS:  MOMCILO KRAJISNIK [Resumed]

13                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

14                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

15        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Speaker.

16        A.   Good morning.

17        Q.   Can you tell us, to whom were the government, and, before the

18     government, the ministerial council, answerable to in our system?  De

19     jure and de facto?

20        A.   The government, and, before that the ministerial council, were

21     answerable to the assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbian Assembly of

22     Bosnia-Herzegovina, and then the assembly of Republika Srpska.

23        Q.   I will tell you what the paragraph 52 [as interpreted] says of

24     the pre-trial brief:

25             "The government, and, before that, the ministerial council, was

Page 43359

 1     subordinated to Krajisnik and Karadzic and it was another mechanism for

 2     the implementation of their idea, their concept of ethnic division."

 3             What can you say about that?

 4        A.   All I can say is that it's inaccurate and I can't imagine on what

 5     basis that conclusion could have been made.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Paragraph 52 of pre-trial brief?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ninety-two.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Speaking about the assembly, Mr. President, how were decisions

11     made?  What was the decision-making process?  How did it unfold?  Was it

12     easy?  Was it difficult?  And how did it come about that very frequently

13     decisions were unanimous?

14        A.   The decision-making procedure in the assembly is the usual

15     procedure common to other parliaments as well.  Background material would

16     be prepared for every agenda and that background material was usually

17     distributed to MPs, but it was also not uncommon for that material to be

18     distributed just before the session.

19             Before the MPs would arrive, the material would be distributed,

20     but sometimes that would be done during the session itself.  In some

21     cases, it was impossible to prepare the material in advance because of

22     the wartime situation, so the MPs would see it at the session.

23             There would be a debate, and all the MPs were able to express

24     their will, put forward proposals, and suggest amendments to the proposed

25     material.  You will see in the documents, and all sorts of material that

Page 43360

 1     has been presented here as evidence, that the MPs were very independent

 2     in their thinking and influenced decision-making.  As a rule, deputies'

 3     clubs would hold their sessions and these deputies' clubs would consist

 4     of MPs from all parties, independent parties, and the

 5     Serbian Renewal Movement.  Very lively debates would be held at these

 6     sessions before they arrived at an understanding.  Excuse me.

 7             Very often, proposals were considerably changed after debate, but

 8     because of the tensions and the wartime constraints, I, as the speaker,

 9     as well as the others, still did not spare any time, did not spare any

10     effort to make these debates as complete as possible.  The transcripts

11     reflect some of that atmosphere and the conclusions may be completely

12     different.

13             My task in the assembly of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and later

14     I tried my best to do the same in the assembly of Republika Srpska,

15     I made sure that every participant in the debate, MPs, members of the

16     government, and members of the Presidency, are able to participate

17     actively, to give their contribution, and I tried to make sure that there

18     would be no outvoting, because that's what had happened in the assembly

19     of Bosnia and Herzegovina where we had been brutally outvoted and pushed

20     aside.  So I wanted to avoid that, and I tried to make sure that we

21     reached the best possible solution through debate.

22             I never put any constraints on the MPs but I tried to make sure

23     that we avoid any kind of extremist debate that would lead to unlawful

24     conclusions or decisions, or simply negative decisions.  What was most

25     important to me was that all the conclusions and decisions serve the

Page 43361

 1     cause of implementing our policy, but also never to violate the

 2     constitution, the laws, and not to make any decisions that could be

 3     detrimental.

 4             Our MPs, who were the most important players in this debate, had

 5     a dominant impact on the decisions, and those who initially put forward

 6     very extreme, radical proposals were eventually moderated by the

 7     majority.  And in the overwhelming majority of cases, our views were

 8     eventually harmonised.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 7 and 8, one statement made

10     by Mr. Krajisnik is missing, and that is that the assembly was trying to

11     find solutions rather than simply make decisions by the majority

12     outvoting the minority.  I can ask Mr. Krajisnik to confirm whether he

13     said that.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I, Mr. President?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm that, Mr. Krajisnik?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.  That's correct.  Our policy

17     was, and I pursued it in parliament, to arrive at harmonised solutions

18     rather than make decisions in which there would be just a majority vote.

19     We simply wanted to arrive at solutions, and that's what made our

20     parliament cohesive and stable throughout the war.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Which parties had influence on the work of the assembly?  What

23     kind of influence and how much?

24        A.   Most of the deputies were members of the Serbian Democratic Party

25     but there were also MPs from the Serbian Renewal Movement; MPs from the

Page 43362

 1     former Reformist Party, which was known as Markovic's party; then MPs who

 2     carried the legacy of the former Communist Party in the former communist

 3     regime, socialists from the previous system.  And I believe, and I

 4     believe it can be confirmed by every MP, that all MPs were equal in their

 5     influence on decision-making, and I could never accept that the majority

 6     should impose their will on the rest, if MPs from the other parties had a

 7     different opinion.  So treatment was equal.  Everybody was able to

 8     influence decisions equally, and it was proposals that won the day, not

 9     the majority in the parliament.  It was not just how many MPs were for,

10     how many were against.  Decisions were made by majority vote, but they

11     were always preceded by meticulous work, making sure that nobody would

12     feel offended or unjustly treated.

13        Q.   What did that meticulous work on every proposal imply?

14        A.   You used the catch phrase by which you are remembered by the MPs

15     and other members of the leadership; namely, you used to say that

16     wracking your brain is not the purpose of decision-making; in fact, it

17     could be brainstorming.  Brainstorming was needed for making proper

18     decisions, a good, productive debate in the parliament.  Sometimes we

19     debated things so much that we forgot who originally made the proposal.

20     And if we made a good decision, arrived at a good solution, it was thanks

21     to the work and the contribution of everybody in the parliament.  A

22     solution was good if everybody in the end eventually accepted it as if

23     they -- as if it was their own.

24        Q.   How long were our assembly sessions usually?

25        A.   Well, sometimes they were endless.  In other words, we took as

Page 43363

 1     long as it was necessary to arrive at a good solution.  They lasted very

 2     long because I was not the only one who wanted to arrive at a good

 3     solution.  It was the overwhelming majority of MPs who didn't want us to

 4     veer in the wrong direction.  And if we almost arrived at a decision,

 5     debate would often restart, MPs would express their views, and efforts

 6     were made to avoid taking the wrong course and making a decision that

 7     would boomerang on us.  There were mediators who followed and monitored

 8     every decision we made, and screened it rigorously.  That our assembly

 9     sessions were very long, we can also see from the transcripts.  There

10     were some shorter sessions also, where we went through many points on the

11     agenda very quickly, but those were routine items.  Sometimes materials

12     would be prepared in advance and decisions were to be made on these

13     points as a formality.  But there were other issues, matters of war and

14     peace, the fate of our people, and that took long.

15        Q.   On page 5, line 12, you said that sometimes one would forget

16     originally who made the proposal.  What did you mean?  How come that when

17     the solution was near, people would originally -- forget who originally

18     had made the proposal?

19        A.   I will try to explain.  If a proposal is put on the table, some

20     sort of resolution, for instance, or a plan, or something like that that

21     is important, proposals were made how to deal with it.  Somebody would,

22     for instance, propose how to phrase it, what solution to choose, how to

23     shape it, and that would be followed by a long discussion.  And that

24     discussion would arrive at a good solution, although that was not

25     originally the solution proposed.  It was better than what the initial

Page 43364

 1     proponent suggested.  And everybody would accept it and would accept --

 2     and would accept it as if they had made it themselves.  That's what

 3     I meant.  Very often we would forget who intervened so wisely because

 4     everybody accepted that proposal as their own and would end up feeling

 5     that they contributed so much that it was almost as if they had made the

 6     proposal themselves.

 7        Q.   I'll read to you what's written in paragraph 81 of the pre-trial

 8     brief:

 9             "The assembly was essentially a party organ, discharging its

10     legislative function in keeping with the policy charted by the

11     Serbian Democratic Party, whose main vehicles were Karadzic and

12     Krajisnik.  You can see that from numerous decisions, conclusions and

13     laws that were adopted unanimously and without deliberation."

14             What would you say about this qualification of our

15     National Assembly?

16        A.   I would feel proud if it were correct, as far as I'm concerned,

17     because that would mean that all proposals made were lawful and no

18     decision was targeting a particular ethnic community or a segment of the

19     people.  However, that was not the case.  The leadership had to

20     intervene, to tone down extremist discussions.  Sometimes people feel the

21     need to say things that are not always politically correct or wise or

22     even productive, but the entire composition of the parliament, as I have

23     said a few minutes ago, that is to say all MPs from all parties, enjoyed

24     equal treatment and the Serbian Democratic Party did not dominate as it

25     was represented in this citation.  What perhaps needs to be explained is

Page 43365

 1     this:  With a victory of the nation-based parties, these nation-based

 2     parties were three movements, that was political homogenisation.

 3             One party united practically all the Muslims, another party

 4     consisted only of Croats, or nearly, and the third party comprised all

 5     Serbs.  They were not national parties, but they represented the state

 6     policy of all the ethnic parties.  And the Serbian Democratic Party

 7     represented the top, and I can confirm that the policy carried out by the

 8     Serbian Democratic Party was the policy that represented all the Serbian

 9     people.  You could see that from talking to every individual in the

10     street.  All Serbs were not all members of that party but they all

11     supported those policies.  If it hadn't been the case, the assembly, the

12     government, or the Presidency, would not have been able to pursue that

13     policy.  And it cannot be said that it was just the policy of one party.

14     It's not true that it was the policy of the Serbian Democratic Party.  It

15     was the policy of all the MPs and the entire Serbian people throughout

16     the war.

17        Q.   Thank you.  To what degree was the assembly a centralised organ

18     and to what extent could it exercise influence over municipalities, the

19     organs of government, at grassroots level?

20        A.   Yesterday, during my testimony, I said that municipalities,

21     especially in 1992 and onwards as well, were mini states because of the

22     lack of communication, and so on.  And after all, because of the

23     financial situation, because the scant resources that were there were in

24     the municipalities.  They financed defence, their army.  So the assembly

25     of the Serb people, or rather the People's Assembly, was an environment

Page 43366

 1     where top policies were pursued, top-level policies, like those aimed at

 2     talks and so on.  However, the assembly could not influence any of the

 3     authorities at municipal level.

 4             For example, I, as the speaker of the assembly, and the president

 5     of the Presidency as well, could not influence the president of any

 6     municipality.  They were autonomous, they made decisions at their own

 7     level independently, and none of us had the right to influence those

 8     decisions.  The government, according to the constitution, could

 9     influence municipalities, however to a very small degree.

10             Municipalities, according to our constitution, were completely

11     autonomous and basically separated from the central authorities, that is

12     to say the assembly of the Serb people.

13        Q.   Thank you.  I am going to tell you what paragraph 83 says of the

14     pre-trial brief.

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We do not have the

16     original text.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   "The assembly was an important centralised forum for making

19     policies and instructions public and disseminating them on the ground.

20     At assembly sessions and at deputy club meetings, Karadzic gave

21     instructions to MPs in terms of divisions at ethnic level;for example

22     that no one could live with Muslims, that they would get instructions on

23     the take-over of municipalities in government and municipalities and that

24     the ultimate objective was to unite with Serbia," and so on and so forth.

25             This assessment of the constitutional position and also the

Page 43367

 1     practical activities of the assembly; is that correct?  And also this

 2     assessment of my powers and abilities to instruct MPs; is that correct?

 3        A.   Judges, you can see exactly from all these documents, from all

 4     those stenographic notes, I do not remember a single instruction or

 5     decision that was obligatory for Municipal Assemblies.  Perhaps there

 6     were some proclamation or whatever, but it was laws that the assembly

 7     passed.  Like in any parliament, those laws were in force in the entire

 8     republic.  However, politically speaking, as for this formulation that

 9     I heard just now, that the assembly said that somebody is supposed to

10     commit crimes or pursue a policy of division, and so on, I assert that

11     there are no such decisions in our stenographic notes.

12             As for the second part of your question, whether the president,

13     through the deputies' club and through the assembly gave instructions

14     regarding ethnic separation, you can establish quite easily a principle

15     of ethnic separation but not in a negative sense.  In order to establish

16     constituent units -- that is to say the principle of the Cutileiro Plan

17     was that in territorial terms there be an internal ethnic delineation,

18     that is to say where somebody has an absurd majority.  However, these

19     territories did not have to be cleansed; that is to say that there should

20     be no other ethnicities living there.  They were all supposed to be

21     mixed.  Of course, in every one of these constituent units, two of the

22     peoples would be a minority and one would be an absolute majority because

23     that is the basic principle of establishing constituent units.

24             Now, this invocation of instructions and the rest, you can see

25     how that was done at the assembly session on the 27th of March, 1992.

Page 43368

 1             And what kind of instructions came from the president, the

 2     then-president, Mr. Karadzic?  He said quite clearly what his suggestions

 3     were to the MPs in terms of what they should be doing on the ground.  And

 4     he said quite clearly -- I mean, there was a great deal of fear among the

 5     MPs.  War was at our door-step.  We all supported the JNA that was

 6     supposed to protect those who were attacked.  We didn't want to attack

 7     anyone.  We just want didn't to experience what had been experienced

 8     during the Second World War.  So then there was this fear among the

 9     Members of Parliament, and President Karadzic said quite clearly then,

10     war suits no one.  Us, in particular.  We support peace.  The peace

11     conference should advance.  We should protect our own territories.  We

12     don't want to take anybody else's territory.  Who remains in our unit

13     should be an equal and equitable citizen, and we should not carry out any

14     kind of discrimination.

15             All of that is contained in these minutes.  And this was just

16     before the war started.  This best -- this shows actually what kind of

17     instructions this man is giving.  It is not that he's calling for any

18     kind of unlawful action.  He is supporting peace and expressing his faith

19     that there would not be a war.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did the assembly prescribe the way in which soldiers

21     should take their oath and was this law amended at some point, and, if

22     so, why?  Do you remember?

23        A.   Well, these things remain in one's memory for a long time.  The

24     oath and the greeting that was there, there was a long discussion that

25     took place at different meetings with the representatives of our army.

Page 43369

 1     How do I put this?  They wanted to keep practices from the communist

 2     days.

 3             So what was accepted by way of a plebiscite, if you will, was to

 4     create scope for the members of other ethnic groups and I think that that

 5     oath was corrected later, I think, and this kind of scope was given;

 6     namely, that in the future, it's not only members of the Serb people who

 7     would be members of the Army of Republika Srpska.  There would be members

 8     of other ethnicities, other peoples as well.

 9             This was derived from the following:  We had information to the

10     effect that some units, well, not a great many, but some units consisting

11     of members of other ethnic communities were part of the Republika Srpska

12     so we didn't want them to feel uncomfortable in any way, and therefore we

13     thought that this oath should be changed so that members of another

14     ethnic community could also accept that.  Now, I can say what was of

15     crucial importance.  On TV, we saw what the other side was doing.  They

16     said that they had all the Bosnians, all the Herzegovinians from all

17     three ethnic communities there and their greeting was a purely Islamic

18     greeting, which was certainly not pleasant for, say, members of the Serb

19     people.  In order to not have that kind of oath, this was corrected and

20     adjusted to a maximum degree, although it was a difficult time but we

21     wanted to make it acceptable for members of other ethnic communities.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

24     65 ter 17498.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 43370

 1        Q.   Was this adopted by the Presidency on the basis of some special

 2     authority and was this verified by the assembly?  Can you read out loud

 3     the second paragraph.

 4        A.   "I solemnly swear on my life and honour to defend the

 5     sovereignty, territory, independence and constitutional order of my

 6     fatherland, the Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina and to faithfully

 7     serve the interests of its peoples [Realtime transcript read in error

 8     "people"].  So help me God."

 9        Q.   Instead of me it was Professor Plavsic who signed it, but did the

10     assembly confirm all this as our decision?  Did it have to confirm it and

11     did it confirm?

12        A.   Yes.  Every decision had to be confirmed by the assembly.  You

13     see, the secretary of the assembly verified this, certified that this is

14     an authentic copy of the original.  You can also find it in the

15     Official Gazette where it was published, because without that it wouldn't

16     have been valid.

17             I just have to draw your attention to something else.  It's the

18     date that's very important here, the 25th of June.  This was just before

19     the patron saint's day of Republika Srpska, St. Vitus Day.  And

20     I remember that we had a debate about what I mentioned to you a moment

21     ago; namely, we agreed on that with our soldiers, that is to say the

22     representatives of the military.  We needed to provide this manoeuvring

23     space so that this oath would be acceptable for the members of all ethnic

24     communities.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 43371

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, it is not stated

 2     correctly but the translation is correct.  It says "peoples."  So it's

 3     not "people" in the sense of demos but it's people in the sense of

 4     peoples.  So on page 12, could that be corrected in the transcript?  In

 5     the document it could be seen clearly.  Can this document be admitted?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4004, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   In several places in the indictment, it says, and that is the

11     very basis of the indictment, it says that I, and my associates, wanted

12     an ethnically pure Republika Srpska, or, that is to say, a Serb entity.

13     Can you tell us what this meant during the war in our terminology, that

14     something should be cleansed, cleansed in what sense?

15        A.   In order to explain that, I will just have to go briefly to the

16     time before that.  When we talked to Mr. Cutileiro, the three parties,

17     that is, it was stated then that there should be an absolute and relative

18     majority; that is to say, in one constituent unit there should be a

19     maximum number of members of one people and then in the second one of a

20     second people and the third, the third people.  And I remember this one

21     conversation with Mr. Izetbegovic, saying, Please, there should be as few

22     of you as possible in our area and as few of us as possible in your area.

23     Now, what was meant by this?  How do we put this?  To have the best

24     possible delineation so that as many members of a particular people as

25     possible should be in that ethnic unit.  So when one says for one area,

Page 43372

 1     say that it's Serb, Croat or Muslim, that is actually in that area, that

 2     is to say in this part of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the majority or the

 3     absolute majority is that particular ethnic community.

 4             In the talks that followed, we started using that in order to

 5     emphasise that this is purely Croat territory, this is purely Muslim

 6     territory, this is purely Serb territory.  It never meant that in an area

 7     where the population is mixed, to a larger or smaller degree, it should

 8     be cleansed so that the members of only one people would stay on.

 9     I mean, the people belonging to that constituent unit, or, rather, the

10     people to whom that constituent unit belonged.  How do I put this?  These

11     pure territories, that is simply supposed to emphasise who this belongs

12     to.  Perhaps this is being pointed out because somebody wanted that part

13     of the territory to belong to another constituent unit.

14             I'll give you an example.  Very often we said Grahovo, Glamoc,

15     Drvar, these are purely Serb territories.  And in Drvar, the population

16     was 90 per cent Serb; and in Grahovac, say, 70; in Glamoc, 80 per cent,

17     but that didn't mean that there weren't any others there.  It just meant

18     they were in an absolute majority.  Perhaps it would be best to say that

19     the word pure territories were territories where there was an absolute

20     majority.

21             Before the war, nobody advocated any kind of population

22     relocation or that somebody should be forcibly expelled.  Whatever

23     happened during the war is a product of the war.  And then some areas,

24     where there was a particular percentage of one or the other or yet the

25     other, there was a certain percentage of a particular people because

Page 43373

 1     there were these movements.  But before the war, the policy was, and all

 2     the plans envisaged that, that the situation would remain the same and

 3     that nobody should be moved from anywhere.  And these areas that belonged

 4     to particular units should belong to that unit, but there would be

 5     national minorities there too.  So all the terms that were used were an

 6     aspect of our nature, where every nation or people emphasised something

 7     in order to protect it from the others who were trying to appropriate it.

 8        Q.   And in this process, while this was being established, were the

 9     territories divided into a contested and uncontested or disputed and

10     undisputed territories, and how would you connect it with this?

11        A.   Your Honours, you can see from an example, there is a map in

12     Mr. Owen's book - that's the best way to understand it - where those

13     disputed and undisputed territories are marked.  What were these

14     territories?  In the beginning each national community provided its own

15     map.  The map showed the claims with regard to certain territories which

16     the community claimed belonged to it, and then when we put those maps one

17     on top of the other then we could establish which were the undisputed

18     territories, those where members of one national community would accept

19     that everything that is not on their map belongs to the other two

20     national communities.

21             In that way, and because of that, we had the disputed and

22     undisputed territories.  In terms of percentage, we agreed about perhaps

23     80 per cent as undisputed territories and perhaps 20 per cent or less

24     were the disputed territories, where due to the ethnic composition and

25     various reasons one national community claimed that it belonged to it and

Page 43374

 1     at the same time perhaps another one or two national communities also

 2     claimed that it should belong to them.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  In the allegations about ethnic cleansing,

 4     paragraph 105 of the pre-trial brief, it is claimed that the

 5     Crisis Staffs requested that the army should collect or take prisoner as

 6     many Muslims as possible and that in that way they directed the moving

 7     out of civilians, that they organised convoys in order to facilitate

 8     expulsion, they provided buses, police escort, they controlled detention

 9     facilities, provided support, and so on and so forth.  Did the army carry

10     out such tasks and respond to such requests?  First of all, as a rule,

11     did the Crisis Staff do this and express such requests vis-a-vis the

12     army, and did the army do all of this?

13             JUDGE KWON:  To be precise, why don't we upload the pre-trial

14     brief and see exact passage.  Are they in e-court?  I'm not sure.  I have

15     it before me but what paragraph -- where in paragraph 105, Crisis Staff

16     ordering or requesting the army?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In paragraph 105, unless there has

18     been some change as I transferred it into word, it says:  Immediately on

19     establishing control in municipalities, and so on and so forth.  And then

20     the next bullet:  They monitored in great numbers the removal of

21     non-Serbs which was performed by Territorial Defence, police and the

22     army.  The Crisis Staffs requested from the army, and then there is

23     footnote 241, to collect or take prisoners, and so on.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Yes.  In the main text it says:

25     Crisis Staff implemented some measures.  And in the first bullet point,

Page 43375

 1     referring to overseeing and requesting the army.  Yes.  Please continue.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Do you remember the question, Mr. Speaker?

 4        A.   I do.  The Crisis Staffs -- perhaps we should be more precise.

 5     My answer should be precise.  Up until the moment when the army was

 6     established, and that was in mid-June, early on, when the war broke out,

 7     armed people were left in the field.  There was no army.  The people

 8     defended themselves in their own way.  The Crisis Staffs already existed

 9     at that time during the first stage and up until the government's

10     intervention to the effect that the Crisis Staffs should be disbanded and

11     lawful authorities set up.

12             The Crisis Staffs had no time to carry out this activity because

13     they lasted for a short while.  Nor was that part of their authority.

14     Nor did the army exist at the time.  I think that this conclusion, with

15     all due respect for the OTP, is wrong because it was impossible to

16     implement something like this because the army and the Crisis Staff did

17     not exist simultaneously.  This was also not within the purview of the

18     Crisis Staffs, nor was the army supposed to obey them.  The Crisis Staffs

19     did not exist when the army did, and when there were some movements of

20     the population.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Did we take over any responsibilities and

22     obligations?  And what were our obligations vis-a-vis the removal of

23     civilian population from the areas where war was being waged?

24        A.   There are documents available, and I know specifically that the

25     ICRC signed an agreement with the three sides to the effect that if in

Page 43376

 1     certain areas the situation would become difficult, and certain

 2     structures of the population would become vulnerable, it should be made

 3     possible for the population, if it so wished, to move from there with the

 4     idea that they would be able to return to their homes once the situation

 5     that was dangerous for some groups, especially those who were in the

 6     minority, would pass.  And there are agreements, and on your behalf

 7     I think it was the then-MUP minister, Mr. Kalinic, who signed the

 8     document; on behalf of the Muslim side, I think it was Mr. Trnka or

 9     Mr. Kurjak; and also Mr. Coric as the representative of the Croatian

10     side.  So it was our obligation, according to this agreement, that if a

11     certain group of the population expressed the wish and if they could be

12     considered vulnerable part of the population, that it -- we would have to

13     ensure to make it possible for them to leave.  And under the auspices and

14     with the agreement of international representatives, we took on ourselves

15     the responsibilities that after the end of the war, such a situation - it

16     could be perhaps during the war - that everyone would be entitled to

17     return to their homes.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Was it your mistake, by any chance, or was it the

19     transcript, Mr. Kalinic, what was he a minister of?

20        A.   Mr. Kalinic was the minister of health and social protection, if

21     I remember his title correctly.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Did you have in mind the first such agreement dated

23     the 22nd of May and were there later consecutive agreements as well?

24        A.   I remember all these activities quite well, as early as in the

25     month of April.  During the first visit of Mr. Cutileiro, it was

Page 43377

 1     announced to us that we would soon be signing such agreements.  That was

 2     in Ilidza.  After that, there was an agreement which I believe in Geneva

 3     was signed by Mr. Kalinic.  This was followed by another agreement or two

 4     which were supplements to this one, as early as in September or perhaps

 5     even earlier, and there are documents available in this Tribunal,

 6     Mr. Samaruga and other high-ranking ICRC officials gave statements

 7     including the provisions and practically quoting excerpts from the

 8     agreement which we had accepted and which Mr. Kalinic had signed.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show the witness

11     1D49012 in e-court.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you please focus on - we have the translation now as well -

14     saving lives in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Geneva, 3 October 1992, a

15     statement of Cornelius Samaruga, securing humanitarian aid and so on.

16     The second bullet here says:  Facilitate the transfer of the most

17     vulnerable civilians and those wishing to be reunited with their families

18     and allow them to reach safe areas.  And the rest deals with prisoners

19     and so on, and there is an appeal addressed to Mr. Izetbegovic,

20     Mr. Boban, and me to facilitate this.  What was our position with regard

21     to all this?  And excuse me, the second bullet says:  Facilitate those

22     wishing to be reunited with their families and allow them to reach safe

23     areas, to join their families and resettle in safe areas or in other

24     country until they can return to their homes.  What was our position?

25     Did we accept this?

Page 43378

 1        A.   This provision precisely has to do with what I just said a little

 2     while ago.  The basis of our obligation was to make it possible for all

 3     vulnerable categories of civilians and those who wished to leave certain

 4     areas because of the war to do so.  And this is just a provision which is

 5     quoted here.  Our position was that every man should be guaranteed

 6     freedom of movement with the condition that everyone was entitled to

 7     return to his or her home.  No one could leave unless they expressed

 8     their wish to do so, nor did anyone have the right to expel anyone.  If

 9     someone used force to expel somebody, it could mean an individual who

10     certainly violated our policy and the provisions and the agreement

11     through which we accepted this obligation, that is to say which we had

12     accepted.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted.

15             JUDGE KWON:  What is this document, Mr. Karadzic?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the statement of

17     Cornelius Samaruga given in Geneva on the 3rd of October, 1992, on the

18     occasion of our talks.  I'm not sure from which part it originates, but I

19     believe it has the ERN number so we can establish that.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Where do you see an ERN number?  But I will ask

21     Mr. Tieger first.  Do you have any objections?

22             MR. TIEGER:  Yes to the extent that it appears to be an

23     excerpted -- it appears to be excerpts which are compiled for a

24     particular purpose.  So it doesn't -- as far as I can tell, it's not the

25     statement.  It's some portion of -- purports to be some portion of what

Page 43379

 1     was said that omits the entirety of the statement for this Court's review

 2     and our review.  So that's a problem.  I don't have a particular reason

 3     to think that there is an inaccuracy in the excerpted portion but it's

 4     quite something else to lift it out, compile it in another kind of

 5     document, and then present it to the Court as if it's the entirety of

 6     what was stated.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The B/C/S seems to be marked as an original.  And

 8     I'm wondering why the page 3, page 4 markings, such as those, should

 9     appear.  And I saw a note in English that the English was taken from the

10     Red Cross original and divergences from the B/C/S version were marked, if

11     I read -- if I were to read it that way.  Exhibit from which case?

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I really don't know.  We found it

13     in IDS.  Perhaps we could zoom out a little bit to see if there is an ERN

14     number.  To zoom out of the Serbian version.

15             JUDGE KWON:  We will mark it for identification until we hear

16     from the parties as to the provenance of the document.

17             MR. TIEGER:  It also appears, based on what I see handwritten at

18     the top of the Serbian version, to have been a document tendered by the

19     Defence in another case.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That was my question, yes.  We will mark it

21     for identification for the time being.

22             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4005, Your Honours.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The English version has a number on

24     the bottom, it's an identification number, and I believe it's the ERN

25     number, but never mind.

Page 43380

 1             Could we now please show 1D49011.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   This is from the same year but two months later, the

 4     4th of December.  Jean de Courten, director of operations.  Can you

 5     please have a look at it?  Do you remember this document, and can you

 6     just check it out for the substance?

 7        A.   If I may be of assistance, I think that the previous document and

 8     this one are from my case, and that these are D227.  You can check but

 9     I think it was from the appeal because I'm quite familiar with both of

10     these documents.  I cannot assert that whether this was my number or not

11     but both documents were used in my case and were admitted, as far as

12     I remember.  Namely, I can read here that in view of the gravity of the

13     situation, the ICRC had had to deploy over 150 delegates in the former

14     Yugoslavia, most of them are working in Bosnia-Herzegovina endeavouring

15     to improve compliance with international humanitarian law by the parties

16     to the conflict.  Bring assistance to some 500.000 displaced persons and

17     40.000 needy people housed in hospitals and other institutions throughout

18     the 80 per cent of the republic's territory now accessible to ICRC

19     delegates, protect the civilian population, and so on.

20             This tells you that it's, in fact, the implementation of the

21     agreements which were signed in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  This is how

22     I interpret it.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

Page 43381

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Same issues presented, Mr. President, so I presume

 2     the same --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will mark it for identification as

 4     Exhibit D4006 until we hear the provenance of the document.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   In the same document we read that convoys were organised and

 7     police escort was provided.  The agreements you mentioned, the one signed

 8     by Minister Kalinic, was it these agreements that made it incumbent upon

 9     us to make sure that these convoys have police protection, police escort?

10        A.   I cannot remember exactly the language of the agreement, but

11     I remember that the population could move only in an organised way,

12     voluntarily, after expressly declaring their will to leave.  The purpose

13     of these movements was not to change the ethnic composition, so it was

14     not ethnic cleansing.  Ethnic cleansing would have occurred if a certain

15     minority was expelled in a different way.

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic start over?  And we don't

17     have the text of the pre-trial brief.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  You are asked to start over.  Please

19     bear in mind that the interpreters do not have the pre-trial brief with

20     them.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The paragraph is 72 of the

22     pre-trial brief.  It claims that Karadzic and Krajisnik maintained their

23     top positions in decision-making and controlling the authorities in

24     Republika Srpska, which they had had even before the establishment of the

25     Presidency and the election of the president.

Page 43382

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Did you, or did I, have a leading position, a top position, in

 3     controlling the authorities of Republika Srpska?

 4        A.   As far as I am concerned, it looks like somebody is being

 5     rewarded with a medal.  I believe, with all due respect to the

 6     Prosecutor, that this paragraph is wrong.  There was no individual or

 7     even a group that had such power.  It was collective thinking and

 8     collective decision-making after long, profound discussions.  I don't

 9     know exactly what people imagined.  Our people have a tendency to crave

10     leaders and make a fetish of their importance, but the way it is written

11     here it is power that not even a king could have had in the past, let

12     alone two people like you and I in a time when everybody who had a rifle

13     and had freed up some territory had power.  I believe that this is a

14     figment of somebody's imagination, or maybe popular imagination.  I was

15     indeed in a public office.  I was in a position of authority.  And I was

16     able to do a lot.  But certainly not that much.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Krajisnik, you started your answer by saying, as

18     far as I'm concerned, and ended with -- that you were indeed a public

19     office -- in a public office.  What would you say with respect to

20     Mr. Karadzic?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I was trying to tell you what

22     I feel and what is the most authentic concerning my role because I am

23     closely tied here with Mr. Karadzic.  And as I said at the end of my

24     answer, even our kings in the past did not have such power as is ascribed

25     to me and Mr. Karadzic.  This is practically making a fetish of a leader.

Page 43383

 1     Our people like to ascribe to their leaders a power that royalty had in

 2     the past.  And whatever I said in my answer applies to Mr. Karadzic as

 3     well.  Briefly, this paragraph is wrong.  Mr. Karadzic did not have such

 4     power, if we are talking about him now, and I believe this is a wrong

 5     idea in the heads of some people.  In reality, it was far from the actual

 6     powers that Mr. Karadzic or I had.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 24, line 23, I don't think the

 8     interpretation is quite right.  The witness said:  As far as I'm

 9     concerned, it would have been as if somebody had rewarded me with a

10     medal, if I had had such powers.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I explain?

12             JUDGE KWON:  If you could just confirm whether that was correct.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Maybe I didn't put it very well,

14     but I said this description of my importance looks like a nomination,

15     like somebody nominating me for an award.  That's what I meant.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, I'll be brief.

17     I'll finish soon.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Mr. President, you spoke a little about Mr. Holbrooke, that some

20     things were put down in writing, others were not.  Which part was never

21     written down?  Which part remained a verbal agreement?

22        A.   What was not written down was the undertaking by Mr. Holbrooke;

23     namely, that The Hague Tribunal and its indictment would be history for

24     Mr. Karadzic if he withdraws from public life.  And what is written down

25     is the part of the agreement that you should withdraw from all official

Page 43384

 1     positions and public life.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness 1D05920.

 3     And before we put it up, I'd like to know if there are any restrictions

 4     on this document.  There are none, I'm told.  We only have the English

 5     version.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. President, do you know the name of this ambassador,

 8     Mr. Menzies, and did you meet on 22nd July, 1996?  Look at paragraph 2,

 9     summary.

10        A.   If you could just tell me from what country he was, it could help

11     me remember.

12        Q.   The United States.

13        A.   I did meet with the US ambassador at the time.  Soon after that

14     he left and the secretary of the embassy later became ambassador.  That's

15     why I'm confusing the two.

16        Q.   Could you look at 3(C).

17             "Ambassador DCM and Poloff met with RC assembly president,

18     Momcilo Krajisnik, and GORS [In English] Minister Aleksa Buha in Pale

19     July 22nd.  Ambassador reported to Krajisnik and Buha that he had spoken

20     with Holbrooke July 21st, and that Holbrooke had reported to Washington

21     on the written and oral agreements reached with the GORS representatives

22     in Belgrade."

23             [Interpretation] In your view, what is this oral agreement?

24        A.   At that time I did speak to the US ambassador, and if I'm allowed

25     to interpret this text, I know that this oral agreement is exactly what

Page 43385

 1     I described earlier.  The oral agreement, which is not in the written

 2     agreement, is that The Hague Tribunal would be history for Mr. Karadzic.

 3     Mr. Holbrooke confirmed that at the end, and the participants in that

 4     meeting can all confirm that.

 5        Q.   Did you gain the impression while meeting with

 6     Ambassador Holbrooke that he believed that I was really responsible and

 7     culpable and guilty and would he have entered such agreements if I had --

 8     if he really believed I had perpetrated such acts?

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just ask him the impression of Mr. Holbrooke.  Or

10     how could he know that?

11             MR. TIEGER:  Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please reformulate your question.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you tell us what was the reason for their demands for me to

16     withdraw from political life, and did they express any conviction that

17     I was really the perpetrator of any wrong doing?

18        A.   This is my impression:  Mr. Holbrooke believed it was very

19     important in the continued implementation of the peace accords, that

20     Mr. Karadzic be removed from that implementation and he believed that the

21     indictment does not serve that purpose.  In other words, we'll withdraw

22     the indictment as a threat, and you will withdraw and we'll continue to

23     implement the Dayton Accords.  That's how he thought the Dayton Accords

24     would be implemented more easily.  It's also true, however, that he let

25     us know he didn't want to go into whether the indictment is based in fact

Page 43386

 1     or not.  He was only looking at whether the indictment was serving the

 2     purpose of implementing the Dayton Accords or it could be in the way.

 3             My impression is that he didn't believe Mr. Karadzic was guilty.

 4     Otherwise, he wouldn't undertake to have the indictment withdrawn.  He

 5     wouldn't undertake to do that if he had believed the indictment to be

 6     based in fact.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be admitted,

 8     Mr. President.

 9                           [Defence counsel and Accused confer]

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Sorry, can we see the last page.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   I forgot this.  I'll read it.  Line 4:

13             [In English] "Buha was in the role of good cop, as much as

14     possible.  In a private aside with the ambassador after the meeting, Buha

15     explained the alleged Holbrooke proposal for The Hague Tribunal to vanish

16     after September elections."

17             [Interpretation] How does this fit into what you had and learned

18     at that time?

19        A.   This is precisely true because Mr. Buha asked Mr. Holbrooke at

20     the end, So where are we finally?  And he said, The Hague Tribunal will

21     no longer be a concern to Mr. Karadzic.  The only thing that matters is

22     that he withdraw and abide by this agreement.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?  I

24     have no further questions for Mr. Krajisnik, and I thank you for your

25     patience.

Page 43387

 1             JUDGE KWON:  What is GORS the abbreviation of?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Government of Republika Srpska.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  For example, can you take a look at page 1?  In

 4     paragraph 2(C) we see some blank lines with two markings of confidential.

 5     Does it mean that that part has been redacted?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.  This document has been

 7     provided to us in full.  And if you see the end of the line before the

 8     word "confidential" and the first line of the text under the word

 9     "page 2," it continues to read in logical sequence.  So I think it's just

10     the way the document was printed.  But this was fully, as it says in the

11     top right, released in full to us.  It was filed by us in connection with

12     the Holbrooke agreement motion in 2009.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Any objections, Mr. Tieger?

14             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4007, Your Honours.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We shall have a break, after which we'll hear the

18     evidence of other witnesses.

19             MR. ROBINSON:  That's correct, Mr. President.  Mr. Puhalic will

20     be testifying next.

21             JUDGE KWON:  And Mr. Krajisnik's cross-examination shall begin

22     probably on Wednesday next week?

23             MR. ROBINSON:  I believe on Tuesday of next week.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Tuesday.

25             Do you understand that, Mr. Krajisnik?

Page 43388

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. President.  Can I just say

 2     one sentence?  I would like to thank you for having made it possible for

 3     me to get the documents from this trial which will assist my review.

 4     That's all.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll have a break for half an hour and resume

 6     at 11.15 -- 16, yes.

 7                           [The witness stands down]

 8                           --- Recess taken at 10.46 a.m.

 9                           --- On resuming at 11.22 a.m.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, I told you that the Chamber would deal

11     with the Kovac's interview after Mr. Krajisnik's in-chief testimony, but

12     we'll deal with it first thing tomorrow.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  There is a matter I'd like to discuss in

15     closed session.  Could we move into closed session briefly.

16                           [Closed session]

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 43389











11  Pages 43389-43390 redacted.  Closed session.















Page 43391

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5                           [Open session]

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  The witness is already in and would the

 7     witness make the solemn declaration, please.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Should I get up?

 9             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth

10     and nothing but the truth.

11                           WITNESS:  SLAVKO PUHALIC

12                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Puhalic.

14             Just bear with me a minute.

15             Yes.  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Puhalic, I must draw

16     your attention to a certain rule that we have here at the

17     International Tribunal, that is Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may

18     object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor or

19     even from Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in

20     a criminal offence.  In this context, "Incriminate" means saying

21     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

22     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

23     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

24     answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer

25     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

Page 43392

 1     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

 2     would ensure that your testimony, compelled under such circumstances,

 3     would not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any

 4     offence, save and except the offence of giving false testimony.

 5             Do you understand what I have just told you, Mr. Puhalic?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 8             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

 9                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

10        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Mr. Puhalic.

11        A.   Good day.

12        Q.   I have to ask you to pause between what I say and what you say.

13     I also have to ask you that we both speak slower than we speak usually,

14     and I'm a fast speaker myself.  We need to do this in order to have

15     everything recorded in the transcript.

16             Did you give my Defence team a statement?

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have 1D9280 in

20     e-court?

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Do you see your statement on the screen in front of you?

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 43393

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the last page please be

 2     displayed so that the witness could identify his signature.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   This statement, does it faithfully reflect what you said to the

 6     Defence team?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to read this out to you today, or actually,

 9     if I were to put the same questions to you today, would your answers

10     basically be the same?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to

14     tender this statement on the basis of 92 ter.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Are you tendering any associated exhibits?

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  The video that was mentioned

17     in the end of the statement is being tendered as an associated exhibit.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Has it been uploaded on to e-court?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  It's been uploaded and I believe that the CD was

20     given to the Chamber and the parties earlier.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Sutherland?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  I would object to its

23     admission at this stage.  There is no foundation been laid as to where

24     the excerpt is from and how it was created.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Let's deal with the 92 ter statement first.

Page 43394

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No objection.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That will be admitted.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4008, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Instead of hearing from the parties, could you --

 5     I wonder whether Mr. Karadzic could deal with this live, the video tape,

 6     with the witness.  That may be the easiest way.  And hear -- I will hear

 7     from Ms. Sutherland then.

 8             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  First of all, I would

10     like to read a brief summary of Mr. Slavko Puhalic's statement in the

11     English language and then we would deal with this video.

12             [In English] Slavko Puhalic was a member of the

13     Prijedor 343rd Motorised Brigade until April 1992.  It was the JNA

14     brigade.  He was requested to join Major Slobodan Kuruzovic, warden of

15     Trnopolje camp, in a role as a logistics soldier mainly involved in the

16     procurement of food.

17             Slavko Puhalic considers that the primary purpose of the

18     Trnopolje camp was to accommodate non-Serbian civilians from the zone of

19     combat operations, who were held for their personal safety and that of

20     their family.  The Red Cross guaranteed the civilians' arrival and they

21     were then registered.  The civilians were allowed to leave the camp

22     freely.  Some civilians would go abroad after they had been issued with

23     the relevant documents from the Red Cross.

24             The security in the camp was organised in the form of guard duty

25     and the primary purpose of this was to prevent unauthorised persons from

Page 43395

 1     entering the camp.  Slavko Puhalic was aware that Major Kuruzovic asked

 2     everyone at the camp to act in accordance with international humanitarian

 3     law.  Major Kuruzovic warned his subordinates to discharge their duties

 4     in the best way possible, but he would not have known everything that

 5     went on in the camp.  Slavko Puhalic considers that the capacity of the

 6     camp was limited and there was not enough room, there was a field kitchen

 7     that could prepare a limited number of meals.  There was an infirmary at

 8     the camp if medical assistance was required.

 9             To Slavko Puhalic's knowledge, civilians primarily came seeking

10     protection and safety and stayed until conditions were created for them

11     to leave the territory.  He himself helped a number of people gain safe

12     passage to Prijedor.

13             He did not hear officials of Prijedor order ethnic cleansing and

14     there was no mention that Prijedor should be solely Serbian.

15             Slavko Puhalic recalls one visit by foreign journalists who were

16     allowed to film inside and outside the camp, and talk to anyone that they

17     wanted to.  No preparations were made for the journalists' arrival and

18     the fencing that surrounded the camp was not altered from the original

19     fencing that had been placed before the war.

20             And that is a short summary.  I would now --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Before putting questions about that video, I would

22     like you to ask the witness what he meant by saying at the end of

23     paragraph 8 that Major Kuruzovic could not have known everything.  What

24     did you mean by that major could not have known everything, and why?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Believe me, he, as far as

Page 43396

 1     I noticed, was not there every day, and those who were there, who were

 2     the guards there, did not report to him or something like that about what

 3     happened every day, that is.  Along those lines.  So that's how he

 4     couldn't know what happened.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

 6             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             Now I would like to ask for this video footage to be played,

 9     1D4808.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And I'm going to ask you, Mr. Puhalic -- actually, I'm going to

12     stop this from time to time so that I could put questions to you.  Could

13     you tell us what we see here?

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is a building - how do I put

16     this? - in Trnopolje.  It's like a cultural centre, something like that.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what kind of fence this is?  Who are

19     these people we see here?

20        A.   These are the people who were there in the camp, who had arrived

21     after the war operations that had started in Prijedor and the area around

22     it.  The people who came to that camp.

23        Q.   Are these only civilians, or were there some people there who had

24     taken part in the fighting there, to the best of your knowledge?

25        A.   To the best of my knowledge, these are civilians, and there were

Page 43397

 1     some friends of mine whom I knew from before, who were in the army of the

 2     BH, the group of the Green Berets.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Could we now hear the sound track?  Is this the visit

 4     of the journalist that you referred to?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know.  I'm not sure whether it's that or something

 6     else.  I don't know.  I'm not sure.  I don't know.  I don't know when

 7     this was taken.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, would you like us to hear the sound?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  There seems to be a technical problem.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  We'll try to go on

12     working until this is overcome.  135, please, could we see that now.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Further, if you like us to hear the translation,

14     probably you need to distribute the transcript to the interpreters in

15     advance.  I see they are nodding, that they have it.  Please continue.

16                           [Video-clip played]

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Can you hear this?  Who are these people here that are talking to

19     the journalist?  Oh, could you go back, please, these people who are

20     talking to the journalist?

21        A.   These are the people who were in the camp.

22        Q.   Where are they in relation to this barbed wire?

23        A.   Outside the barbed wire, on the external side of the wire.  This

24     is the wire, if I can explain.

25        Q.   Please do.  Explain what this schematic shows.

Page 43398

 1        A.   The schematic shows this was a shop selling agricultural tools,

 2     and next to the shop there was also a warehouse, a storage area, where

 3     the goods were properly stored.  The shop was fenced off with barbed

 4     wire, the fencing, so this camp, or how should I call it, the centre was

 5     not surrounded with barbed wire.  There was a low metal fence, both

 6     around the cultural centre and around the school.  But I don't know.  I

 7     cannot exactly remember whether outside the school and in the direction

 8     of the houses was some other fence.  And on the other side there was no

 9     fence, no wiring at all.  It was a big field or a pitch, and there were

10     no signs, no markings, no wire, nothing.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Is this schematic part of that video footage?

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, in order to explain this

14     visually, and now I will ask the question.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.  We'll deal with the footage later

16     on.  Yes.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Mr. Puhalic, we saw in the video that between the camera and the

19     people who were recorded, there is some wire.  What wire was that?  And

20     where were the people and where were the journalists?

21        A.   The people were outside of the wire and the journalists were

22     inside.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can you stop here, please and

24     freeze.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You can see well here that the

Page 43399

 1     journalists are inside, that is the building or the facility, the shop,

 2     which was fenced off with the wire so the journalists are inside, on the

 3     inner side of the barbed wire fence and the men are outside of the fence.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Can you tell us what is this vessel that can be seen here?

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer, Mr. Puhalic?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We call it a cart or a wheelbarrow,

 9     in order to use to transport some goods, such as firewood and such.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Thank you.  Until we have the sound, can you tell us this:  You

12     mentioned that they had some health protection.  What did that look like?

13        A.   Well, let me tell you, look, I don't know whether it was so in

14     the beginning, a doctor was there, perhaps one doctor or two, I cannot

15     remember exactly.  I know about one.  There were also two or three nurses

16     there.  Later on, another doctor came from our side and also a medical

17     orderly.  He was there every day.  They were present when this was

18     organised.  When the ICRC came, I mean, the army, and that -- when it was

19     organised, that was when the doctor came, perhaps every -- perhaps even

20     every day he came inside, he treated people, and tried to help them as

21     much as he could.

22        Q.   How did these people feel, in terms of security, the people who

23     were here at the camp, by comparison to other places outside of the camp?

24        A.   Here, they -- as much as we and Major Kuruzovic managed to secure

25     this, they felt much more free than elsewhere, in other places.

Page 43400

 1        Q.   When you mentioned the doctors, what were these doctors who were

 2     helping and providing assistance, by ethnicity?

 3        A.   There were Muslim ones and Serb ones as well.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now try it with the sound,

 5     please.  I think we got it.  And it's with subtitles so I think we will

 6     be able to do it.  Can we try it now, please.

 7                           [Video-clip played]

 8                           [Trial Chamber and registrar confer]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I'm told --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

11             JUDGE KWON:  -- in order to solve the technical difficulties, we

12     need to rise for ten minutes.  We will have a break for ten minutes.

13                           --- Break taken at 11.57 a.m.

14                           --- On resuming at 12.08 p.m.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I would ask if we could

17     now start playing from 16 seconds up until 40 seconds, 0016.

18                           [Video-clip played]

19             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot find this in the

20     transcript.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Shall we stop.  It's only two pages,

22     and I see these on page 1.  But interpreters said that they could not

23     find the passage.

24             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We have a

25     15-page document.

Page 43401

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic --

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But the -- there is a -- you have

 3     subtitles, you can see it.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  But they say they have a 15-page document.

 5     What is it --

 6             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Perhaps that's a different

 7     document.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Probably it's a transcript of the

 9     entire video, we need from 0016 to 0045.

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We don't have the time

11     noted on the transcript, only numbers of lines from line 1 to line 51 on

12     each consecutive page, so it's difficult to find any excerpt.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Note to the interpreters:  They are coming.

14             While it is being distributed, why don't we discuss about the

15     provenance of this document.  Is it an edited version on your side,

16     Mr. Karadzic?

17             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, this is an excerpt of a longer

19     film which is called "The judgement," which is broadcast on Serbian RTV

20     so we have taken out portions that are relevant to this witness's

21     testimony.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So this is an excerpt from the Serbian TV programme

23     which used the image broadcast by Penny Marshall in other media?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And the film can be watched on

Page 43402

 1     You Tube, the whole film.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  That's not a point.

 3             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, I understand that there has also

 5     been information added to the ITN footage.  As you could see the --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, information was added by -- what was the name

 7     of the Serbian media?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  It's Serbian RTV, Radio TV Serbia.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, not by the Defence.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.  So it's the commentary and the diagram

11     that we saw a moment ago.

12             JUDGE KWON:  What's the reason for your objection to the

13     admission, Ms. Sutherland?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, this witness is only, thus far,

15     been able to identify some of the buildings and structures at the camp.

16     He cannot comment on the -- or hasn't commented and shouldn't comment on

17     the commentary.  That's of no value, in my submission.

18             JUDGE KWON:  He confirmed the location of the barbed wire

19     vis-a-vis the film crew and the refugees.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm saying that's as much as

21     he's done.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Shall we continue.

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "I had to come here.  Those that did

25     not fight came here.  I came with children, small ones, here down the

Page 43403

 1     field.  Nobody harassed us, nobody laid a finger on us.  I stayed in the

 2     village up there."

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   How does this fit with what you know?  Is this man telling the

 5     truth?  How does this fit with what you know about the character of this

 6     camp?

 7        A.   He's telling the truth.

 8        Q.   Thank you.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now if we can play from 050 to 059.

10                           [Video-clip played]

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "We have been here from the very

12     first day.  People came here on their own will, probably because of food

13     shortages.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you tell us what was this woman's role and whether she is

16     telling the truth, according to what you know?  Is it correct what she is

17     saying?

18        A.   I can't remember, but that was probably a lady from the

19     Red Cross.  I cannot remember her name and I do believe that she's

20     telling the truth.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now please

22     start at 131?

23                           [Video-clip played]

24             "Is it safe here?

25             "I think it's very safe, but it's very hard."

Page 43404

 1             "Here's a little --"

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Did you hear the interpretation of what this man, Mehmed, or

 4     whatever his name is, was saying?

 5        A.   Yes, I heard two or three words.

 6        Q.   How does that fit with your experience and knowledge about this

 7     camp?

 8        A.   He's telling the truth.  It was safe but it was difficult.  There

 9     was not much food, there were too many people, and they all needed to be

10     fed.  The conditions were poor there.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us whether you had an opportunity to

12     learn how this camp was represented in the media after this visit took

13     place?  How was this depicted in the media?  And did you know that?

14        A.   I didn't know much, really, but I heard from friends that it was

15     a very unfavourable picture, what was reported, that it was a real

16     prisoner camp, that people vented their anger, maltreated the inmates,

17     and all kinds of things were said.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Please look at this picture now.  You can see the one

19     who spoke recently, Mehmed, and then a thin man.  In your view, how did

20     this happen?  Did he get so thin while he was there at the camp?

21        A.   I don't know exactly whether he lost weight in the camp or before

22     his time there.  I don't think that he could have acquired such a figure

23     in such a short time.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I now tender the footage that we

Page 43405

 1     saw, those inserts.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Now I'll hear from you, Ms. Sutherland.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have no objection to the

 4     admission of this, if this -- the sound -- what I'm saying is the

 5     commentary by the people that have made this film is --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  I think the Defence agrees with it.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  We do.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit it.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4009, Your Honours.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions at this

12     stage, Your Excellencies.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes, Mr. Puhalic, as you have noted,

14     except for the part related to this video footage, your evidence-in-chief

15     in this case has been admitted in writing, that is through your written

16     statement.  Now, you will be cross-examined by the representative of the

17     Office of the Prosecutor.  Do you understand that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.  Shall we continue till quarter

20     to 1.00 when we break for lunch?  Yes.

21                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

22        Q.   Mr. Puhalic, the statement that you signed on Monday, the one

23     that's just been admitted into evidence, when was the earlier draft

24     taken?

25        A.   The first draft was, I think, at some point in January 2013, but

Page 43406

 1     I'm not exactly certain.

 2        Q.   Who took the statement from you?

 3        A.   I gave the statement to the Defence.  It was Mr., I believe,

 4     Todic was his name.

 5        Q.   Do you know his first name?

 6        A.   I cannot remember.

 7        Q.   Were the questions given, provided to you in advance or were they

 8     spoken to you as the statement was taken?

 9        A.   Yes.  I spoke with him, and as we had the conversation, he noted

10     my answers and that was it.

11        Q.   I'm a bit perplexed as to when you got to the camp.  In

12     paragraph 3 of the statement, you say I quote, "After the camp was

13     formed."  And then further on in that same paragraph, you say, "In the

14     beginning when the camp was formed."  So what will it be, after the camp

15     was formed or when the camp -- in the beginning, when the camp was

16     formed?

17        A.   Well, now, whether it was a day or two or three, I cannot

18     remember now.  It was such a long time ago.  Mr. Kuruzovic said that he

19     was having some problems and that he couldn't manage, that he needed

20     assistance, whether he got it from the army or -- we were both neighbours

21     and friends, so he asked that somebody from the unit, namely myself,

22     should come along with him up there and help him with those over there as

23     there were many people who were arriving on trucks, tractors, personal

24     cars, coming to the camp.  He requested assistance from me, food was

25     needed, and other things, and he wanted me to help about that.

Page 43407

 1        Q.   You've answered the question.  You were getting on to food.

 2     That's why I stopped you.  I would ask you to be as brief as you can in

 3     answering my questions.

 4        A.   All right.

 5        Q.   In paragraph 5, of your statement, you're quite clear when you

 6     say you have no knowledge at whose orders the camp was formed because you

 7     were an ordinary soldier.  That's right, isn't it?  You have no

 8     knowledge?

 9        A.   Yes, that's true.

10        Q.   You say that there were a couple of excesses in the beginning

11     committed by people who broke into the camp, but that's not true, is it?

12     There were murders of individuals in June and July, weren't there, by

13     both camp personnel and soldiers coming to the camp?

14        A.   I wouldn't agree to that.

15        Q.   So what about a large number of the Foric [phoen] family who were

16     called out and killed?  What about Ante Mrgic [phoen] and his son, Zoran,

17     also killed in July?  Tofik Talic [phoen] died as a result of beating in

18     July.  Sulejman Kekic [phoen] was killed by a guard in July.  And

19     soldiers came to the camp in July and took 11 men into a nearby maize

20     field and killed them.  Do you not know about these instances that

21     happened in the camp?

22        A.   Well, that -- I stated why I knew what happened, that is to say

23     the information from people who were inside in the camp.  I learned that

24     and I wrote there what I do know.  As for what I don't know, I can't tell

25     you that because I was --

Page 43408

 1        Q.   So you were unaware of those -- those four instances of people

 2     being killed in the camp; correct?

 3        A.   I cannot remember all the people.  For some I don't know what

 4     their names were.  I said that I was aware of two or three instances

 5     where people lost their lives.  And I noted in the beginning that there

 6     were several excesses, not to say beatings.  Mr. Kuruzovic was informed

 7     about this.  Whether he took some measures or not, he probably went to

 8     the police and requested from the army that these people be protected,

 9     but they were treated by the medical staff in any case.

10        Q.   You're saying in six months that the camp was in existence,

11     you're aware of two or three people that lost their lives in that six

12     months; is that right?  It requires a yes or a no answer.

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Rapes also occurred in the June and July.  There was a woman who

15     was systematically raped by the camp commander throughout July.  There

16     were several young women -- throughout August, I'm sorry.  There were

17     several young women taken out at night and raped or sexually assaulted in

18     July.  Now, you mentioned that there were -- you were aware of some

19     rapes; is that right?

20        A.   Yes, yes.

21        Q.   And beating of individuals was a regular occurrence in the camp.

22     Nedzad Jakupovic was badly beaten and treated in the clinic.  He suffered

23     an eye injury and injuries to his body, and he had wire marks cut into

24     the skin of his arms which had been tied with wire during the beating.

25     And another inmate who was beaten at the same time as he was killed as a

Page 43409

 1     result of his beating.  Do you not recall this instance?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number P03896.

 3        Q.   Mr. Puhalic, that is photograph of Mr. Jakupovic.  Do you

 4     recognise -- do you recall seeing injuries like that on -- on the

 5     detainees in Trnopolje camp?

 6        A.   No.  I can't remember, and I was there at the camp until the

 7     11th of June.  After that, I went for a spa treatment that lasted up

 8     until around the 17th of July, and then I returned for another 10 or 15

 9     days to Trnopolje, and then I was sent back to my unit, so I can't know

10     everything.  What I know, I have included in my statement, and I stand by

11     that.

12        Q.   Just so I understand your evidence well, you were at the camp two

13     or three days after it opened, at the end of May.  You were there for

14     approximately a fortnight until the 11th of June, and then you were there

15     again from the 17th of July to around about the 27th of July.  Is that

16     what you're saying, those -- those were the only two periods you were in

17     the camp?

18        A.   Well, roughly.  Perhaps until the 15th of August.  I can't

19     remember the exact date when I returned to my unit.

20        Q.   So you didn't think it was relevant in any way to put in your

21     statement that you were only in Trnopolje camp for 24 days out of six

22     months?

23        A.   I don't know.  Nobody asked me.

24        Q.   Okay.  On your evidence that's been admitted, you're an ordinary

25     soldier who has mainly procured food for the camp.  We'll get to the food

Page 43410

 1     later, but for now let's talk about you.  Of all the persons that were

 2     working at the Trnopolje camp in 1992, you're the only one, are you not,

 3     with the first name Slavko?

 4        A.   Maybe, there were more men called Slavko.  I was not alone.

 5        Q.   I'm talking about the people that were -- had the role of camp

 6     guards, camp security.

 7        A.   Well, I was not a guard.

 8        Q.   You're the only Slavko who worked at Trnopolje who was a butcher

 9     by trade, weren't you?

10        A.   Maybe.  I don't know who other people were by occupation, but

11     it's true that I am Slavko and that I am a butcher by occupation.

12        Q.   Do you remember Vasif Gutic, a medical student from Kozarac who

13     was detained in Trnopolje and was in the infirmary?

14        A.   I cannot recall the name.

15        Q.   Well --

16        A.   I don't know who he is.

17        Q.   He testified in the Tadic trial.  I'm sorry.

18        A.   A lot of time has passed since then.

19        Q.   He testified in the Tadic trial in 1996 and he remembered you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Who is he?  We do not have --

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Vasif Gutic.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Please put a pause.  Please put a pause.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  If I could have

24     65 ter number 25630.

25        Q.   At transcript page 4709, Mr. Gutic said that Slavko Puhalic had

Page 43411

 1     an office in the former office of the local commune building "where

 2     Slavko also took inmates for interrogation when they were interrogated,

 3     when he interrogated them and where some were beaten."

 4             You did take prisoners for interrogation, didn't you?

 5        A.   No.  There were some friends with whom I talked, just as I'm

 6     talking here.  Maybe, I don't know.  It wasn't an office.  It was a

 7     little room, even downstairs where the dom itself was, where I was

 8     sitting, there was an Albanian gentleman, Izet Beri [phoen], I sat

 9     together with them, too, talking.  Maybe something happened after me but

10     there were no beatings.

11        Q.   Did you participate in the beating of any person at Trnopolje

12     camp?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   What about being present during beatings?

15        A.   I can't remember, really.  It was a long time ago.  I can't

16     remember.

17        Q.   Do you know a man called Adem Dzihic, also formerly from Kozarac

18     who was detained in Trnopolje?

19        A.   No.

20        Q.   He gave a statement to the Bosnian authorities.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 25607.

22        Q.   There is a statement he gave in September 1994, and on page 3, he

23     said:

24             "The commander of the police, who guarded and interrogated the

25     camp prisoners, was Slavko Puhalic, who used to own his butcher shop in

Page 43412

 1     Prijedor."

 2             That's you, isn't it?

 3        A.   I did not have a butcher shop.  I worked as a butcher in a

 4     state-owned company.

 5        Q.   You worked in a butcher shop in Prijedor?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  I've finished with that document.  Mladen Mitrovic

 8     and Goran Nisevic [phoen] were camp guards, weren't they?

 9        A.   Probably.  I can't remember the names of the guards anymore.

10        Q.   Now, at paragraph 25 of your statement, you said in relation to

11     adjudicated fact 1237 that in the beginning there were cases of

12     mistreatment.  You said there were a few cases that you knew of and

13     reported these to Major Kuruzovic.  Do you know Mustafa Nuhanovic, who

14     was from Trnopolje and was detained in the camp?

15        A.   No.

16        Q.   Well, he knows you.

17        A.   I can't recall.  I can't remember.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can I have 65 ter number 25604, please.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say paragraph 25 of his statement,

20     Ms. Sutherland?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, it's one of the new additional

22     paragraphs.  It's on page 9 of the English.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I probably only have the older version.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Now, Mustafa Nuhanovic testified also in the Tadic trial on the

Page 43413

 1     7th of August, 1996, and at the bottom of page 4841, he was asked whether

 2     he was ever beaten in Trnopolje camp.  And he said, Yes, several times.

 3     Were any times -- were there any times that were particularly severe?

 4     Twice, yes.  Rather severe, he said.  Where did they occur, he was asked.

 5     At the top of page 4842, he said, In the building next to the centre

 6     called laboratory.  He was asked who took him there.  He said

 7     Mladen Mitrovic.  He was asked, When you were taken -- and this is at

 8     line 23 of that page, When you were taken to the lab and beaten, did you

 9     recognise any of people who took part in that beating?  He answered, Yes.

10     One Slavko from Prijedor, a captain by rank, I mean I saw the insignia,

11     three stars, that is a captain, and he interrogated me.  I do not know.

12     He was a butcher in Prijedor.  I believe his family name Pahovski or

13     something like that.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to transcript page 4844, please.

15        Q.   He was asked during the first beating he received what was used

16     to beat him with?  And he said, at line 10, They beat me with anything

17     from baseball bats to cables to boots, hands and even a chair.  Did they

18     appear to concentrate the blows on any parts of your body?  Yes.  Where,

19     he was asked.  He answered, In the area of my heart and kidneys but

20     otherwise, all over the body.  They beat all over, including my head.

21     And the injuries he sustained, he said at line 19, The first time one of

22     my veins in my leg is cut.  My head is was fractured.  It was broken

23     here.  There were fractures here like this, five or six centimetres, and

24     I had many such injuries.

25             On page 4845 he was asked about the second beating, Who was that,

Page 43414

 1     who took you for the second beating?  Oh, it was the same man, so to

 2     speak, that Mladen, but there were others too who were in his company.

 3     Cigo was there.  And he said that Cigo's last name was Nisevic,

 4     Goran Nisevic.

 5             And at page 4846, Did you lose consciousness during either time

 6     you were beaten.  He said, Yes, they beat me and beat me.  I do not even

 7     remember how long.  It looked like eternity to me.  Eventually one took

 8     me by my feet and put me against the wall and the other one began to beat

 9     me with his hands, with his feet, so that I felt sick.  I threw up.  Then

10     suddenly I wanted to throw up again and I could not, and there was some

11     yellow liquid which I vomited.  It was so bitter that I have never tasted

12     in my life anything so bitter and then I must have fainted.  He was

13     asked, Were you ever told why you were beaten?  Yes, several times.  Why

14     were they beating you?  They were asking for rifle, for money, for gold.

15             Now, Mustafa Nuhanovic remembered that you participated in one of

16     his beatings at the camp.  Do you remember being involved in this

17     particular incident?

18        A.   First of all, I've told you I was a simple soldier, without any

19     rank.  Maybe there was another Slavko, a captain, that I can't remember.

20     But I don't know this person, nor did I participate in these beatings.

21     I can't remember this Mitrovic, or what did you say he was called, Cigo?

22     I can't remember these people, I didn't participate in that, no.

23        Q.   You had a level of authority in the camp to stop detainees being

24     mistreated, if you wanted to, didn't you?

25        A.   I did not have any authority but I tried to help people as much

Page 43415

 1     as I could.

 2        Q.   In fact you took money from detainees on the proviso that you'd

 3     stop bad things happening like being beaten by guards, didn't you?

 4        A.   No, no.

 5        Q.   You know a person by the name of Rifet Zenkic?  He's around 14

 6     years older than you.  You were a neighbour of his sister's daughter?

 7     You took money from him in payment for stopping Skrbic from beating his

 8     son, didn't you?  Why are you smirking, Mr. Puhalic?

 9        A.   I really cannot remember.  I'm really sorry but such things

10     I just can't understand it.  He's lying.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 25606, please.

12        Q.   This is a statement taken from Mr. Zenkic in

13     August/September 1994 so a couple of years after the event.  Page 11 of

14     the statement, he's talking about his son being interrogated five times

15     by a person called Skrbic.  On the sixth time, and I'm quoting now from

16     the second full paragraph, starting:

17             "My son was interrogated five times.  On the sixth time, I went

18     to Slavko and pleaded with him to save my son."

19             I'm sorry.  He identifies you back on page 8.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could quickly go to page 8 --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we just find out to whom this

22     statement was given?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  The statement was given to representatives of

24     the Office of the Prosecutor.  If we could go to -- no, the first page

25     has contact details.  Page 8, please, the second to last paragraph

Page 43416

 1        Q.   He said that it was his turn for interrogation and the

 2     interrogator was a lieutenant in the military police.  He was wearing a

 3     camouflage uniform with two stars indicating the rank of lieutenant.  The

 4     interrogator was my sister's daughter's neighbour.  The lieutenant's name

 5     was Slavko Puhalic.  So if we can go then on to page 11.

 6             He said then I saw Slavko, I went to Slavko and pleaded with him

 7     to save my son.  That they were going to kill my child.  I saw Slavko

 8     later and he called me to him.  He said that he had spoken to Skrbic --

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Kindly read slowly, please.  Thank you very

10     much.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  My apologies to the interpreters.

12        Q.   He had spoken to Skrbic and that my son had a gold chain.  This

13     meant that we had to pay him with a gold chain.  I told Slavko that

14     others had already taken the chain but that I had 150 German marks.  He

15     took the money and later came to see me and said that he had talked to

16     Skrbic and it would not happen again.

17             Now, do you remember that?

18        A.   I remember perhaps after coming here that the son's name was

19     Ajdin, if I got it right.  Am I right?

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I will confirm that after the lunch break,

21     Your Honours.  Is this a good time to break?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Yes.  We will have a break for

23     45 minutes and we will resume at 1.38.

24                           --- Recess taken at 12.48 p.m.

25                           --- On resuming at 1.40 p.m.

Page 43417

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   Mr. Zenkic's son is, in fact, you said, Ajdin.  It's A-j-d-i-n.

 4     It's on page 7 of his statement.

 5             So you do recall taking the money from Rifet Zenkic in order so

 6     that his son was not going to be further beaten by Mr. Skrbic?

 7        A.   I remember that family.

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could the witness approach

 9     the microphone.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Puhalic, could you come closer to the

11     microphone?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Since you said that it was a family

13     of neighbours of mine, now I recall that family.  They insisted that

14     I help that gentleman, Zenkic, I think you said the name was, and

15     I went -- that was perhaps 800 metres, one kilometre, outside the camp.

16     I found that family, and I told him to go to the camp, that that was the

17     safest place, the safest option.  He didn't accept that so I returned to

18     the camp and I had no clue what was going on later, and I have no idea

19     about this money you are talking about.  I tried to help that person.  He

20     didn't accept.  Now, what happened after that, I really couldn't tell

21     you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  There are three

24     microphones on now at the same time.

25             THE ACCUSED:  Line 9, the witness said:  No, then I remember

Page 43418

 1     family.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   You know the camp guard called Bosko Lakic [phoen]?

 5        A.   No, I can't remember.  I did not have any communication with the

 6     guards.  It was not my job.  It was up to Mr. Kuruzovic.

 7        Q.   You went to places in the camp where women were housed, including

 8     the wooden shack, didn't you?

 9        A.   I don't know what you're talking about.  The women were around

10     the camp, inside the camp, under tents, in trucks, in cars, wherever it

11     was possible to sleep, to rest, women were everywhere, together with

12     children and men.  All those who were there.

13        Q.   There was also a place, a wooden shack, where women were

14     sleeping.  You didn't attend there with a flash light and call women out

15     at night-time?

16        A.   No, never.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we go into private session, please,

18     Your Honour.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

20                           [Private session]

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 43419











11  Page 43419 redacted.  Private session.















Page 43420

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13                           [Open session]

14             THE REGISTRAR:  Back in open session, Your Honours.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   So this is what Slobodan Kuruzovic, the camp commander, said

17     about the rape allegations when was interviewed:

18             "Perhaps it's not nice to say it now because it's an ugly

19     situation but the older Muslims that were in there were also making jokes

20     on that because we are that kind of people.  Had the older lady said that

21     she had a nice time.  It's not nice to say but that's what I heard, like

22     two days after."

23             And then he goes on to say:

24             "Well, that's how it was, probably some sort of a prank.  I don't

25     think anyone was seriously physically injured."

Page 43421

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Do we have that document?

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, it's at -- oh, it's, sorry,

 3     transcript page 14829 which is a couple of pages into the --

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  For the record, this is actually testimony in the

 5     Stakic case not an interview with the Prosecution.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, yes, you're correct.  Thank you,

 7     Mr. Robinson.  It was the Stakic testimony given on the

 8     31st of March, 2003.  And what I read was from lines 12 to 16.  And then

 9     lines 20 to 22.

10        Q.   And it's referring to when he was interviewed the year before,

11     and Mr. Malik [phoen] asked him, What, you mean the person who was raped?

12     She said how nice it was?  And you answered, Yes, whether she was raped

13     now but I don't know.  Well, anyway, there were no test results of any

14     real differation [phoen] or any real deperation [phoen] or anything

15     because I just had other things to take care of in my mind.

16             So Mr. Puhalic this captures in a nutshell, doesn't it, how the

17     camp commander viewed allegations of rape or sexual assault in his camp,

18     doesn't it?

19        A.   As regards that lady, who stated that, that was rape.  I cannot

20     exactly remember the date.

21        Q.   Mr. -- Mr. Puhalic, if I can just stop you there.  The part that

22     I read out to you in private session, I do not want you to repeat that

23     person's name.  We were in private session at that point.  The -- the

24     allegations that are being discussed now with Mr. Kuruzovic are the rape

25     allegations in relation to a number of women complaining that they had

Page 43422

 1     been taken out of the camp and raped, so two different situations here.

 2     My point to you is, though, this captures, does it not, exactly the camp

 3     commander's views as to what he thought about allegations being made

 4     about rape and sexual assault in the Trnopolje camp?

 5        A.   No.  I wish to explain precisely what Mr. Kuruzovic said to this

 6     person.  That was the person that was raped, with five or six other women

 7     or even up to seven.  When I came to Trnopolje in the morning, the

 8     commander was not there, and when I went into the camp, a lady walked up

 9     to me and said that her child had been raped and that really shook me, as

10     a person, and I immediately asked where that girl was, and she said,

11     That's my daughter.  Among other things, the girl said that she was not

12     there all by herself.  There was another person there with her.  And

13     I asked her whether she knew who that person was, and she said, Well, I

14     cannot remember now the name, but anyway I did find these six or seven

15     women, and, among other things that Major Kuruzovic said, one of them

16     said this by way of a joke, or maybe she meant it seriously, I don't

17     know.  She said that about that man, so I remember that part, I remember

18     that, and when the commander, Kuruzovic, came, I reported that to him so

19     that further activities could be undertaken.  The doctor also came.

20     I found these persons.  I brought them down there.  I mean some were

21     outside the camp, now was it three or four women that were outside the

22     camp, and I think the three were from the camp, I mean this young girl

23     and these two women, so the doctor did --

24        Q.   The women were, in fact, taken to a hospital and examined.  You

25     said that -- that the persons responsible were arrested for these rapes.

Page 43423

 1     What are their names?

 2        A.   I cannot remember now exactly what the name was of that young

 3     man.  I took part in his arrest.  And the police -- actually, these women

 4     told me where this was in Kozarac.  I went there with the military police

 5     and civilian police; that is to say my own life was in jeopardy.  I went

 6     among the soldiers in order to arrest that man or --

 7        Q.   If I can stop you there, these -- this person or these people

 8     were never prosecuted, were they, for these rapes that they committed in

 9     the Trnopolje camp?

10        A.   That I don't know.  I'm telling you now that this person, that is

11     to say that did take part, but he was not the one who actually raped the

12     girl.  This girl - there were two sisters there, actually - she said that

13     this man that we arrested had some kind of a ring on his hand and that he

14     actually helped stop them from raping her.  We stayed at the command -

15     now, I may be wrong - for two or three hours for the questioning but

16     while I was at the command, these young men who did that, that group,

17     called the command and they said, and I'm quoting now:  That they would

18     attack Prijedor if this young man is not released.  I went from there --

19     I'm sorry, let me just finish.  I returned to the camp.  The next day

20     this group came with two tanks to the camp and I heard this sound.

21     I realised something was happening.  I managed to have the soldiers

22     removed from the road.

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could all other

24     microphones please be switched off.  Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The civilians were supposed to be

Page 43424

 1     in the school and in other buildings.  They came there.  They disarmed

 2     me.  I stayed on the road all by myself in front them.  The commander was

 3     not there.  I was there on my own.  The commander was not there.  And

 4     there was this Albanian there, Izet Beri, the one who was there.  Since

 5     I realised that these men were rather drunk, I asked him for a bottle of

 6     brandy or some kind of alcohol.  He gave it to me, I gave it to them, and

 7     I somehow managed to persuade them not to shoot.  I don't know.  I don't

 8     know how.  That's how it all end.

 9        Q.   And the bottom line is [Microphone not activated]

10             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone for the Prosecutor, please.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   And the bottom line is they were never prosecuted for committing

13     these rapes in Trnopolje camp; right?

14        A.   That I don't know.  I'm telling you.  I'm not the one who can be

15     the judge of that, who did what, and whether certain activities were

16     carried out.  I could not check that.  I was just an ordinary soldier.

17     I've been telling you.

18        Q.   And neither were any investigations conducted in relation to the

19     killings that occurred in the camp or the beatings that occurred in the

20     camp; that's right, isn't it?  To your knowledge there was never any

21     investigations?

22        A.   Well, as far as I know, no.  Most --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear the

24     witness.

25        Q.   I'm sorry, [Microphone not activated]

Page 43425

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   You mentioned briefly in paragraph 11 that there was an infirmary

 4     at the camp which provided medical assistance, and you said that there

 5     were one or two doctors as well as two or three nurses.  And you

 6     mentioned earlier in your testimony today that there was a doctor of Serb

 7     ethnicity as well.  But you know full well that it was a make-shift

 8     clinic with inadequate medical supplies for the thousands of detainees

 9     that were in the Trnopolje camp, don't you?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I, just for the transcript,

11     before we get the answer.  Line 16, the interpreters did not hear the

12     witness say:  Major Kuruzovic took care of that.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please answer the question.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   You also said in paragraph 21 of your statement, and this is in

17     relation to adjudicated fact 1230, that Trnopolje was never fully

18     surrounded by soldiers, that there were no machine-gun nests or fire

19     points holding guns against the camp.  That's completely untrue, isn't

20     it?

21        A.   No, there --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We cannot hear the

23     witness.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  [Microphone not activated]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Puhalic, could you repeat your answer?

Page 43426

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] As far as I know, no.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   Well, apart from the witnesses who have given evidence in this

 4     trial, which said that there were guard posts surrounding the camp.  And,

 5     in particular, I take Your Honours and Mr. Karadzic to -- to P03880.

 6     There is also an independent witness who testified when he visited the

 7     camp in late August, early September, and he said this, "So it appeared

 8     to be the site of a former school," and I'm reading from P00712, the

 9     testimony of Charles McLeod.  He said:

10             "So it appeared to be the site of a former school, the camp was

11     bounded on two sides by a road.  At the apex of the two roads there was a

12     machine-gun covering down the two roads, pointing inwards to cover down

13     the two roads.  The camp was called an open reception centre."

14             Dr. Mrdjanic [phoen], who testified - and this is P03880 - that

15     the guard posts were around Trnopolje.  All around Trnopolje there were

16     guard posts.  And that's at transcript page 7732.  He then says on

17     transcript page 7753:  There was a machine-gun nest on this check-point

18     here, when he's pointing out on a map.  So it's just completely untrue

19     for you to say that there were no guard posts around the camp and no

20     machine-gun nests, isn't it?

21        A.   No, I cannot remember that, but maybe.  I don't know.  A soldier

22     put his rifle down next to the place where he was standing guard.  But

23     when I was passing there, I mean, I did not see civilians held at

24     gunpoint, no.  While I was there, that is to say, I did not see that.

25        Q.   In paragraph 19, you say in relation to adjudicated fact 1225,

Page 43427

 1     that no one came to Trnopolje by force, and the evidence in this case

 2     shows that the overwhelming majority of people didn't come to Trnopolje

 3     of their own volition, they were, in fact, rounded up and brought to the

 4     camp on buses and on foot.  You know that, and you knew that then, that

 5     this was the case, wasn't it?

 6        A.   Well, I don't know exactly.  I was not present at any one of

 7     those times.  Somebody being brought on a bus.  I know that people came

 8     on tractors, trucks, cars.  There were a lot of cars, and I cannot --

 9        Q.   I'm sorry to -- to -- to interrupt you there.  They came on

10     buses.  They were -- it was organised.  They were rounded up, and they

11     were brought to the camp on buses.  They were rounded up from Kozarac.

12     They were rounded up from Jazkici [phoen].  They were rounded up from

13     Trnopolje.  They were rounded up from the Bodoje [phoen] in July after

14     the cleansing at the end of July.  Witnesses have testified here that

15     they were rounded up and bought to the camp against their will.  Now,

16     you're saying that you didn't see any of these buses in the 24 or 25 or

17     26-odd days that you were at the camp.

18        A.   Well, you just mentioned July, June, and I said that from the

19     10th or 11th June I wasn't there until the 18th of June; that is to say

20     I was not present when this happened.  As for what I saw, I'm telling you

21     about that.  I'm not sure.  Maybe sometime in the beginning, when there

22     was this attack on Prijedor, maybe -- I don't know.  I'm telling you, I'm

23     not sure.  I cannot remember.  Perhaps some were brought then.  But

24     then Kozarac -- people went on foot because there was fighting going on

25     and people did not have time to put people onto buses because people were

Page 43428

 1     fleeing while the fighting was going on.  They were trying to save their

 2     bare lives.

 3        Q.   The evidence is that they were put on buses.  They were taken on

 4     foot.  They were escorted by soldiers.  Now, according to your evidence,

 5     after the first few days, security of the camp was increased to protect

 6     the civilians, yes?

 7        A.   Yes, yes.

 8        Q.   Well, that's not correct.  In fact, security was increased

 9     because of a fear of a breakout from the camp.  That's the real reason,

10     wasn't it?

11        A.   Well, I don't remember.  Perhaps somebody did leave.  Perhaps

12     somebody did escape.  I cannot say because I was not the one who was in

13     charge of monitoring that.  I told you, I was in charge of food and

14     things like that.  I've already said I cannot tell you about that.  It

15     would be best for you to --

16             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

17     rest.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   I'm sorry, it would be best for me to what?  The interpreter --

20     I -- I -- I came in too quickly and I apologise.  You didn't finish your

21     answer.  The interpreter didn't catch the end of your answer.  It would

22     be best for me to do what?

23        A.   It was Commander Kuruzovic who knew best about all of that that

24     was going on, Major Kuruzovic, whatever, about all of these things that

25     were happening.

Page 43429

 1        Q.   Well, you say that the Trnopolje camp was -- was this place where

 2     people could come and that nobody was detained, no guards.  In fact, it's

 3     not that way at all.  It was set up because in the beginning -- and the

 4     guards were increased because of this fear of a breakout.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I can have 65 ter number 1D05886.  Now, this

 6     is --

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well --

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   This is dated the 31st of May, and it's a Croatian intercept.

10     And it says:  This is -- there is a collection camp for the non-Serb

11     population in Trnopolje village at the stadium.  The enemy fears a

12     breakout from the camp or an escape, so an order has been issued for

13     security to be stepped up, and, if necessary, tripled.  If it's a camp

14     where everyone is free to come and go, as you say it is, then why are

15     they tripling security for fear of people breaking out?  Breaking out of

16     where?

17        A.   Well, I don't know, again --

18        Q.   They camp where they are being held --

19        A.   I did not understand what it was that you said.

20        Q.   I'm saying that they are breaking out of the camp where they are

21     being held by the Serb authorities.  That was the view, that they didn't

22     want them to break out.  They were being held.  You said in paragraph 7

23     of your statement that people could leave to go and get food, but they

24     had to leave their ID documents.  And you also repeated it in paragraph 9

25     in a slightly different way saying that they were allowed to freely leave

Page 43430

 1     the camp after reporting to the guard and leaving a document.  So

 2     basically they weren't free to leave the area, were they?  Because if the

 3     authorities at the camp had their identification papers, they couldn't go

 4     anywhere, could they?

 5        A.   Well, I don't know now whether it was Commander Kuruzovic who

 6     said that to do that, but there were people who went without documents,

 7     went home to get, say, a blanket for the night or some food.  There were

 8     some people who would go home and take a bath and come back because of

 9     their personal hygiene.  Things like that did happen.  As for this

10     breakthrough, I have no idea.  But maybe -- maybe -- I mean -- well, in a

11     car, I actually found a pistol, 9 millimetres.  A Muslim gentleman had

12     that pistol, and perhaps there might have been some other weapons there,

13     I cannot say, so that kind of thing did happen, too, within the camp.

14     But usually -- I'm sorry, allow me to finish.  Now, why were soldiers

15     there?  There was a war already in -- on in Bihac, Cazin, and we thought

16     that there might be some revanchism because refugees were already coming

17     in and --

18        Q.   [Previous translation continues]  ...

19        A.   Well, I am actually doing that right now, answering your

20     question.  If refugees are coming in from Bihac, of Serb ethnicity, the

21     army wanted to prevent any kind of retaliation, so that -- well, after

22     all, there were quite a few civilians who had uniforms, so people had to

23     be protected, and it's from that point of view, people who went home in

24     order to come back, and --

25        Q.   Mr. Puhalic -- sorry, sorry, sorry.  My question to you was

Page 43431

 1     people -- people are not free to leave if their identification papers

 2     have been left with the camp authorities.  It's not a camp -- it's not a

 3     camp where you can walk in and out and go wherever you please.  You were

 4     keeping the detainees' documents so they couldn't go anywhere but back to

 5     the camp when they were actually going out to get food.

 6        A.   I don't know about that right now.  I don't know why, but there

 7     is this probability, precisely for people to go back in order for the

 8     records to be kept.  Where could a person go?  How do I explain all of

 9     this to you?  Actually, with all these documents, to show that he or she

10     was a Muslim.  Where could they go?

11        Q.   Are you aware that the Bosnian Serb military and political

12     authorities also saw Trnopolje camp as a detention facility?  In -- in

13     correspondence - and this is D01872 - they refer to it as -- when they

14     are talking about closing the Trnopolje prisoner of war camp, they also

15     refer to it in -- in another military document, P03721.  When they are

16     talking about a decision of the RS Presidency on granting amnesty for

17     criminal prosecution it talks about prisoners of war in Manjaca and

18     Trnopolje prisons.  So it wasn't an open camp as you make it out to be,

19     was it?

20        A.   No.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter 1D09763, please.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we just -- actually, there

23     will be too much left for re-examination.  Perhaps this could be

24     clarified with the witness, what the "no" referred to.  It was a complex

25     question with double negation in our language and that doesn't work in

Page 43432

 1     English.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] May I answer?  This was a centre of

 3     an open type.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Okay.  If it was a centre of an open type, then --

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can look at 1D09763 and it not be

 7     broadcast, please, and if we can go to page 42.

 8        Q.   This is the Prijedor hospital protocol book, log-book.  And at

 9     the 17th of June, 1992, we see an entry there for Salih Softic [phoen], a

10     prisoner from Trnopolje.

11             So, again, it begs the question:  Why call him a prisoner from

12     Trnopolje if it's the open camp that you say it was?

13        A.   I don't see that here.  Where is he being called a prisoner?  I

14     cannot see where that is written.

15        Q.   Second -- the second entry from the bottom, entry 3349.  I'm

16     sorry, on page 62.  Do you see it there now?

17        A.   I do.  Yes.

18        Q.   So why -- why call him a prisoner from Trnopolje, if it's an open

19     camp, then?

20        A.   Well, I don't know.  You have to ask the person who wrote that.

21     I cannot say anything.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I -- I tender that page.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we mark it for identification?

Page 43433

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, until we get an English

 2     translation.  And I'm just -- for privacy reasons perhaps we can redact

 3     the other names on that page except for the one that I've just referred

 4     to.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  That will be MFI [overlapping speakers]

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Your Honour --

 8             THE REGISTRAR: [Overlapping speakers] seal.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Give the number again.

11             THE REGISTRAR:  It will be MFI P6501.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  My apologies, Mr. Registrar.

13             Your Honour, I would also ask for the intercept to be MFI'd,

14     please.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will do that.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI P6502, Your Honours.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   You said in paragraph 10 of your statement that you helped people

20     get safe passage and also helped to get approval from Kuruzovic.

21     Approval from what?  For what -- approval from Kuruzovic for what?

22        A.   Well, it was - how should I put it? - a kind of a pass for the

23     people who were in the camp, that they could pass through a check-point

24     held by the police or something like that, and take people to the town to

25     a family where they would go further, be transported or something like

Page 43434

 1     that, where they would find their further residence.

 2        Q.   Now, what's the reason why you don't want to give the names of

 3     these people you helped to get safe passage?

 4        A.   It's not a problem.  I can, for example -- I don't know.  I can't

 5     remember now and here all the first and last names, but this Izet Beri

 6     family from Kozarac, ethnic Albanians, and others also, other Albanians

 7     from Prijedor.  I know they were called Piste or something like that.

 8     Then Mr. Idriz Hosic [phoen], who was a former football player who played

 9     for the Yugoslav team.  Then there was a Rajkovic [phoen] family.  They

10     were Croats.  And let me not list others that I can't remember now.  But

11     there were many others, let me not say, a hundred or perhaps more people

12     whom I transported and helped them to find where they would leave via

13     Croatia or whichever route they would take to go further, I wouldn't know

14     that.  But I do know that --

15        Q.   [Previous translation continues]... sorry.

16        A.   But I do know that to this day, some of these people who visit

17     Prijedor come also to see me.  They drop by and they want in a way to

18     return the favour that I did them.

19        Q.   We will get to you transporting them in a moment, but once the

20     authorities had decided what was to be done with the detainees, convoys

21     were organised on a regular basis, weren't they?

22        A.   I don't know exactly.  I was present in one convoy in which I

23     don't know how or what, but there were buses.  People were boarded on the

24     buses and transported in the direction of Travnik or Turbe.  I wouldn't

25     know exactly.  I don't know.  Major Kuruzovic was there and --

Page 43435

 1        Q.   When was -- when was that and how many were in the convoy?

 2        A.   Well, I can't tell you exactly now whether it was perhaps around

 3     what date it was.  I couldn't specify that.  But, well, that was what

 4     I saw, that people left.  Now, where, I think it was Travnik or

 5     thereabouts, but I cannot be sure.

 6        Q.   Well, we will try and pinpoint it.  Was it before or after your

 7     spa treatment?

 8        A.   I can't -- I can't lie to you.  I'm not sure.  I can't remember.

 9        Q.   So, sorry, you came back from your spa treatment around the

10     17th of July.  Was it shortly after you came back?

11        A.   I don't know.  I really can't remember.

12        Q.   As Mr. Kuruzovic's logistics officer, as you say you were, what,

13     if anything, did you have to do to co-ordinate these convoys?

14        A.   No, no.  I didn't have anything to do with that.

15        Q.   Now, in your statement, you said that there were no preparations

16     before the journalists came, talking about foreign media now, their visit

17     in early -- 5th of August.  And after they left, you said wire was

18     neither put up or removed.  But, of course, we have just established that

19     you weren't there then.  According to the calculations, I think you came

20     back to the camp on the 17th of July and you said you spent between 10

21     and 15 days there.  So that puts it up to the end of -- around the end of

22     July or the 1st -- 1st of August, doesn't it?

23        A.   Well, I don't know exactly, but there was a team of journalists.

24     Now, when they came, once again, I can't tell you exactly when that was.

25        Q.   Who was there?  The videotape that you saw this morning had the

Page 43436

 1     English journalists with the pink shirt on, Penny Marshall.  Were you

 2     there that day of that visit of those particular journalists on the

 3     5th of August?

 4        A.   Well, I don't know.  I wasn't there then, but this journalist --

 5     I'm not sure whether it was one team that was also perhaps from Geneva,

 6     perhaps from the Red Cross or something.  I don't know.  I think that --

 7        Q.   Mr. Puhalic, you would remember this, I would assume.  It's the

 8     first time any journalist got into the camp.  So were you -- were you at

 9     the camp on the day the very first journalists got -- came to the camp?

10        A.   If this is the footage from the first time when someone visited,

11     then I was present.

12        Q.   All right.  So you said that there was no wire that was put up

13     before they came or after they left.  And, in fact, we have evidence in

14     the case to say that there was wire put up before they came and that it

15     was -- that it was taken down after the first visit and before the second

16     visit, before they came back again, ITN.  Let me just show you two short

17     clips.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could play, please, P03785.  This is the

19     video of the first visit.  And play from 19.50 to 20.06, please.

20                           [Video-clip played]

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:

22        Q.   Now, you see that fence there?

23        A.   Yes, yes.

24        Q.   And that was put up when the men from Keraterm were transferred

25     there, weren't -- wasn't it?

Page 43437

 1        A.   I don't know.  I wasn't there.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay, if we can have 65 ter 40168G, please.

 3     It's another short clip.

 4                           [Video-clip played]

 5             "There's now some food getting through, although the queues are

 6     long, and there's also shelter and clothes provided by the Serbian

 7     authorities.  And the barbed wire fence which shocked the world has been

 8     torn down from its posts.  All this has been done in advance of the

 9     simultaneous arrival of the Red Cross and our cameras.  For certain

10     conditions here have improved these refugees are safer.  But the Red

11     Cross have still not been allowed to enter any other camps and our visits

12     are closely supervised."

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:

14        Q.   Now having reviewed the video footage, is it -- is your memory

15     refreshed about the fence coming down?

16        A.   No.

17        Q.   Now, the reporter there said that the International Red Cross

18     still weren't allowed into the camp.  They didn't come into the camp

19     until around the 10th of August, 1992, did they?  And it was at that

20     point that the -- that the detainees were properly formally registered.

21        A.   I couldn't confirm that for you.  I don't know.

22        Q.   Now, you said that you left at the end of -- oh -- oh -- on --

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, can I tender this clip, Your Honour, please.

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection so long as the commentary is not

25     included.

Page 43438

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow, Mr. Robinson.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, since he wasn't present, it falls into the

 3     same situation as the clip that we played.  When we played the clip, the

 4     Prosecution asked that the commentary of the journalist not be included,

 5     and so this would be the same situation.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, in the Defence video-clip the commentary

 8     was included with the understanding that it was added by Serbian media.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, maybe I misunderstood, but I thought that

10     you said that that would not be included.  And you asked me if we were

11     not tendering that part of it, and I -- or not offering that part of it,

12     and I confirmed it, but --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Probably I didn't make myself clear but -- yes,

14     Ms. Sutherland?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Sorry, Your Honour, I was actually on the same

16     wave-length as Mr. Robinson.  I thought that the commentary by the people

17     that were interviewing was being admitted but not the commentary of the

18     makers of the documentary.  That was my understanding.

19             JUDGE KWON:  It was only me, then.  So you have no objection to

20     admit without the sound?

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, yes, Your Honour.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6503, Your Honours.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:

25        Q.   Now, it was after this -- it was after this first visit by the

Page 43439

 1     foreign journalists that Kuruzovic put up a sign to say open reception

 2     centre, and it was written both in English and Serbo-Croatian on the

 3     Red Cross centre across the road from the camp; that's right, isn't it?

 4        A.   No, I don't know --

 5        Q.   Okay, so -- sorry.  You don't know because by the beginning of

 6     August or certainly -- sorry.  You say that you were in the camp on the

 7     5th of August.  So at what time -- at what point after did you go back to

 8     your unit?  You mentioned to us earlier this morning that you came back

 9     to the camp on the 17th of July, spent 10 or 15 days there, and then went

10     back to your unit.  We have now established that you were, in fact, there

11     until at least the 5th of August which is when this ITN crew arrived.  So

12     how long after this crew were there did you leave the camp?

13        A.   Well, I'm telling you, I don't know whether that was the TV crew

14     or whether it was another TV crew.  I cannot claim that with any

15     certainty.  But what you're asking me now, I don't know when exactly

16     I returned, but the audio recording and this wire, I did not see that,

17     and I cannot say anything about that.

18             THE ACCUSED:  May I help?  On page 50, line 9, witness said till

19     what time he probably was there.  I'll not tell the date, not to instruct

20     witness.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Mr. Karadzic.  That's exactly my

22     point.  The witness said that he came back to the camp on the

23     17th of July, stayed 10 or 15 days, which to my calculation was around

24     the 1st of August, and he said that he went back to his unit.  In fact,

25     he's just testified a moment ago that he was present when one media group

Page 43440

 1     came to the camp.

 2        Q.   Now, Mr. Puhalic, I put it to you that you would remember if it

 3     was the very first visit, and you said that you were there for the first

 4     visit which means that you were still in the camp on the 5th of August.

 5     So my question -- I'll repeat it:  How long after this visit did you

 6     leave the camp?  Were you there days, were you there weeks?  Did you stay

 7     until the camp closed at the end of October -- in November?

 8        A.   No, no.  I -- well, I'm telling you I don't know which TV crew

 9     was there.  I know that it was a lady from Geneva.  She was there then.

10     And that she did conduct an interview inside, probably I'm also somewhere

11     in the footage.  She talked to the civilians and the staff and the others

12     there inside.  Now, whether I stayed there after that -- but it could

13     have been perhaps until around -- as far as I remember, it was -- whether

14     it was before August, I can't remember, or perhaps even in July.  I can't

15     remember exactly.  Well, in this context, how long after that I stayed

16     there in Trnopolje, two or three days after that, because I was told that

17     I should return to the unit.  I can't remember exactly how long it was.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I think my time is nearly up.

19     I was going to ask, given the additional three pages and ten paragraphs

20     in the statement that we received -- I have dealt with a couple of the

21     matters but there are two other areas that I would like to deal with the

22     witness, if I may.

23             JUDGE KWON:  How much longer time do you need?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I think I could do it in 10 or 15 minutes --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

Page 43441

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But I'm not a good one for time, as Your Honour

 2     well knows.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Puhalic, you said -- you said in paragraph 13 that many

 6     wanted to leave Prijedor municipality because of the war, to save their

 7     lives, and most probably -- and most of them probably did not want to

 8     take part in the war.  You'd agree that given what had taken place with

 9     the property of the non-Serbs and their loved ones, that they were

10     fearful for their lives, were they not?

11        A.   Yes, of course they were in fear.  We, who were in town, were

12     also in fear, and fearful for our lives.  I was fearful for the lives of

13     my family and my children.  Now that you say this

14     [overlapping speakers] --

15        Q.   Well, the vast majority of them [overlapping speakers]

16        A.   [Overlapping speakers] With regard to Mr. --

17        Q.   With regard to Mr. Who?

18        A.   Well, I wanted to mention this gentleman that you asked me about,

19     a little while ago, about his son, Ajdin, that family --

20        Q.   Mr. Puhalic, I've moved on from Mr. Zenkic and his -- his family.

21     You have answered my question.  You said that they were fearful for their

22     lives, as were yourself.

23        A.   Yes.

24        Q.   You know that the vast majority of them had no home to return to

25     because it had either been shelled or burnt and that the atmosphere was

Page 43442

 1     of such a coercive nature that people felt that they had no choice but

 2     they had to leave.  Do you agree?

 3        A.   Well, they had nowhere to return, that's correct.

 4        Q.   Around the end of September, beginning of October, around 1500

 5     left the Trnopolje camp on buses for Karlovac in Croatia.  You're --

 6     you're aware of that?

 7        A.   No.

 8        Q.   Are you aware that there were still around 3.000 people left in

 9     Trnopolje in October and November?

10        A.   No.

11        Q.   Okay.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 25609.  This is a

13     report of the Serb Red Cross dated the 30th of September, 1992, for the

14     period 5 May to 30th of September, 1992.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we switch to e-court again?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we could go to page 9, please.

17        Q.   It says there that, middle of the page in the English, 23.000

18     people have been housed through the reception centre at Trnopolje, of

19     whom we and the International Red Cross have dispatched 1.561 to the

20     Karlovac reception centre.  On the 29th of September, 1992, a convoy was

21     escorted to Karlovac in the presence of European observers.  The problem

22     of Trnopolje is becoming more complicated with the onset of autumn so

23     that all those who have been left without homes and arriving in great

24     numbers seeking accommodation -- so that all those who have been left

25     without homes are arriving in great numbers seeking accomodation.  There

Page 43443

 1     are now more than 3.000 citizens there.  And then it goes on a couple

 2     of -- a paragraph down.  There is great pressure for citizens of Muslim

 3     or Croatian nationality to leave the autonomous region of Krajina.  That

 4     sets out how it was at the time, doesn't it?

 5        A.   I agree with you to a point, and to a certain extent I do not.

 6        Q.   What do you agree with me about?

 7        A.   I agree with this part where it says that there were families who

 8     had nowhere to return and who asked to go further on for their own

 9     safety.  And what I do not agree with, it's that the Muslim population,

10     which used to live in town and left their homes, they went further on.

11     There was no work and people did leave.

12        Q.   Would you agree that that figure of 23.000 who have been housed

13     through the reception centre is -- is -- is about right?  That's what --

14     that's what you recall?

15        A.   I couldn't tell you exactly.

16        Q.   Well, even in relation to -- to the logistics for the food, you

17     were aware of how many people were in the camp, were you not?  So how

18     many -- how many people were in the camp at any one time, roughly?

19        A.   Well, what do I know?  Perhaps around -- when I was there,

20     perhaps around 2.000 to 3.000 people.

21        Q.   And do you agree, because for the reasons that we've discussed a

22     moment ago, that there was pressure put on the citizens of Muslims and

23     Croat nationalities to leave the area?

24        A.   Well, I don't know, perhaps not such pressure but those who had

25     nowhere to survive, the winter was coming, they needed to live on,

Page 43444

 1     perhaps.

 2             THE ACCUSED:  It's not for the redirect.  It's an interpretation

 3     of the pressure put on the citizens.  So I would like this to be

 4     clarified.  Who was pressing?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'll move on, Your Honour.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Was it not discussed in previous questions?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Let us continue.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I seek to tender that document.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We will receive it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6504, Your Honours.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:

15        Q.   The Trnopolje camp was inspected by CSCE mission in late

16     August/early September 1992.  A rapporteur called Sir John Thompson from

17     the United Kingdom was leading this mission, and I just want to read to

18     you what he concluded after inspecting the camp.  And this was -- the

19     inspection took place sometime between the 29th of August and the

20     4th of September, 1992.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have 65 ter number 05616C, please.

22             And if we could go to page 25 of the report, I think this 65 ter

23     number has the first page and then pages 25 and 26.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  I'm afraid it's not been released,

25     Ms. Sutherland.

Page 43445

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  We do have 05616 without any letters after it.

 2     That's [indiscernible] page document.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, this is just an excerpt from that document.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we see just 5616?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, we can do that and go to page 25 of that.

 6     Are we going to page 25?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  This is page 25.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can -- 25 on the bottom of the -- bottom

 9     of the page, if we can go -- can we see the next page over to see what it

10     is?  Yeah, that memorandum on Trnopolje.

11        Q.   And we can see there in the second paragraph, the second

12     sentence, this is what's concluded after inspecting Trnopolje:  These

13     people are living in terror and the CSCE mission believe they have

14     substantial reasons for their fears.

15             And down to the last sentence in that paragraph:  Whatever their

16     long-term hopes, no one wishes in present circumstances to return to

17     their homes in Western Bosnia because the local administration cannot and

18     will not guarantee their physical security.

19             Now, this is -- this is the situation as it was at that time,

20     wasn't it?

21        A.   I don't know what this is about.  I don't understand.  Who is

22     going back to Western Bosnia?  What is this all about?

23        Q.   This is a report by the CSCE mission.  And you can see on -- in

24     the second paragraph the number of inmates at the centre of whom great

25     majority, if not all, are of the Muslim faith is currently thought to be

Page 43446

 1     in the neighbourhood of 2.000.  And then it goes on to say these people

 2     are living in terror and they believe that they have substantial reasons

 3     for their fears.  And I'm saying that this document is consistent with

 4     what you testified to earlier, when you agreed with me that the non-Serb

 5     population were in fear of their life and that they had no choice but to

 6     go because of the atmosphere that was -- was being created at the time.

 7     And that's right, isn't it?

 8        A.   Well, believe me, if I had a choice, I would have gone somewhere

 9     safer to stay alive, and I suppose that's what they did too.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

11             I'm sorry, may I tender that document.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  It deals with the

13     period of 29 August, and on which is the time he said he wasn't there, so

14     any -- and he also hasn't been able to confirm any of it.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, Your Honour.  I asked him whether

18     this was consistent with --

19        Q.   At the time, when you were -- I'll be clearer.  Mr. Puhalic, when

20     were you in Trnopolje camp -- we discussed it a moment ago, and you

21     agreed with me that the non-Serb population were in fear, that there was

22     a coercive atmosphere, that they -- they didn't -- they couldn't stay.

23     They had nowhere to stay.  They had no home to go to.  And I said to you

24     this document is consistent with what we have just discussed, isn't it?

25     And I must say your answer was -- was not responsive to my question.  You

Page 43447

 1     said if you had a choice you would have gone somewhere safer to stay

 2     alive.  But you said -- no, you did.  You said, I suppose that's what

 3     they did too.  And that's right, isn't it?

 4        A.   In this context I would have gone myself, if I had had somewhere

 5     to go because we, too, were in fear of the war simply.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit the cover page and this page, page 25.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6505, Your Honours.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue tomorrow, Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED:  I agree, Excellency.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Puhalic, we will continue tomorrow morning but

12     I'd like to advise you not to discuss with anybody else about your

13     testimony.

14             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  Very quickly, Mr. President, the Chamber ordered us

16     to upload a revised translation for Exhibit P6455 by today's date and

17     that has been done.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Hearing is adjourned.

19                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.58 p.m.,

20                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of

21                           November, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.