Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 44690

 1                           Monday, 9 December 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everybody.

 7             Mr. Bojinovic, I'd like to remind you that the solemn declaration

 8     you took on Friday last week is still valid.

 9             Shall we continue, Mr. Karadzic?

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  I was just going to note, Mr. President.  I noted

12     that Judge Lattanzi isn't here.  Perhaps we should put that on the

13     record.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you for that reminder.  We are sitting

15     pursuant to Rule 15 bis for today, with Judge Lattanzi being away due to

16     urgent personal matters.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

19     Excellencies.  Good morning to everybody.

20                           WITNESS:  MILOS BOJINOVIC [Resumed]

21                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

22                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Professor Bojinovic.

24        A.   Good morning.

25        Q.   This machine is as slow as any other day, which is why I would

Page 44691

 1     like to ask you to speak slowly and pause between my question and your

 2     answer.

 3             Did you have an occasion to listen to your testimony, to your

 4     testimony in the Brdjanin case?

 5        A.   Yes, I listened to it all.

 6        Q.   Would you answer the same way if those same questions were put to

 7     you today?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender the transcript

11     pursuant to Rule 92 ter into evidence.

12                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat the number.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9730A.  The redacted is 1D9370

15     [as interpreted].

16             JUDGE KWON:  I take it there are some associated exhibits?

17             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, there are three associated

18     exhibits and it's indicated that two of them were not on our 65 ter list,

19     but in fact this notification was filed before the latest 65 ter list.

20     So all three of them are on the list currently.

21             JUDGE BAIRD:  Shouldn't the redacted version be 9730?

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.  It has been

23     erroneously recorded.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Among them, the Chamber is of the view that two of

25     them, i.e., 1D9731 and 1D9732, do not form an inseparable and

Page 44692

 1     indispensable part of the transcript in that they are not sufficiently

 2     commented upon or contextualised by the witness.  Accordingly, we will

 3     only admit one associated exhibit into evidence unless there is an

 4     objection from the Prosecution.

 5             Ms. Sutherland, do you have objection to the admission of the

 6     statement?

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No, I do not.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, shall we assign the numbers for the

 9     statement -- the transcript as well as the associated exhibits.

10             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D09730A receives Exhibit Number

11     D4176.  65 ter number 1D09730 receives Exhibit Number D4177.  And the

12     associated Exhibit 1D0 -- 1D03514 receives Exhibit Number D4178,

13     Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D4176 will be put under seal.

15             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Excuse me, Your Honour.  I would just note in

17     relation to the one associated exhibit D4178, it's an extremely bad copy

18     and a better version of that is 65 ter number 054 -- 05473, which the

19     Defence may wish to substitute when they are doing the upload.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Upon the confirmation from the Defence,

21     it will be replaced.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you, Mr. President.

23                           [Trial Chamber confers]

24             MR. ROBINSON:  It may be Judge Baird has already noticed this,

25     but the one that is under seal should be Exhibit D4177.

Page 44693

 1             JUDGE BAIRD:  Yes.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, in any event, the confidential part should be

 3     put under seal.

 4             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  I'm now going to read a

 6     short summary of the transcript, i.e., Professor Milos Bojinovic's

 7     testimony in English.

 8             [In English] Milos Bojinovic was the chief of the agency for

 9     population movement and the exchange of material wealth for the

10     Autonomous Region of Krajina, for the agency.  He began working in

11     Banja Luka at the agency on July the 1st, 1992.

12             The agency served a humanitarian role for people living in the

13     ARK.  It was established to assist any person in need or any person whose

14     life was at risk.  Agency activities centred on the two main tasks:

15     Helping people exchange their addresses and facilitating travel.

16     Ethnicity was irrelevant to the agency's function.

17             Several services were offered by the agency, but it was only able

18     to provide transportation and travel-related services due to the war-time

19     circumstances.  Bus convoys organised by the agency travelled from

20     Banja Luka to Gradiska and further to Croatia, and from Banja Luka to

21     Vlasic, several times a month.  Buses left Banja Luka two or three times

22     per month in convoys usually comprised of two or three buses.

23             Although citizens sought bus transportation to Zagreb and

24     Travnik, the agency could not provide complete transportation to the city

25     cities.

Page 44694

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second. If the court deputy approach the

 2     Bench

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED:  Individuals leaving Banja Luka were required to

 6     present a document proving they had registered out of their place of

 7     residence before they could secure the agency's bus transportation.

 8     Travellers could obtain the document through the Ministry of

 9     Internal Affairs, the police, in the person's respective municipality.

10     Individuals were placed on a list of people scheduled for departure after

11     presenting the document to the agency.

12             After the agency reviewed and finalised its list, the listed

13     individuals would buy tickets, and the agency would hire buses.  It did

14     not own its own fleet.  Ticket prices were non-negotiable and were fixed

15     by local regulations.  All ticket prices were regular bus lines in the

16     region were fixed at an equal value.  The agency operative, Bandic and

17     Segrt, would evaluate safety concerns and determine whether the bus

18     convoy would need a police escort.  The operatives would submit a report

19     to the agency describing military activity on the route and whether the

20     trip was safe.  If agency operatives discovered military activity along

21     the convoy's anticipated route, the convoys were not permitted to leave.

22     Conversely, buses were permitted to leave when no military activity

23     existed along the route.  The agency requested police protection whenever

24     its operatives determined a safety risk was nevertheless present,

25     particularly around the line separating the two armies.  However, agency

Page 44695

 1     operatives escorted the convoys because the travellers would be

 2     travelling, regardless of whether a police escort was needed or provided.

 3     He never witnessed agency operatives or the police maltreat passengers,

 4     nor did he witness personal property or money being extorted, demanded,

 5     or taken from boarding passengers.

 6             Mr. Bojinovic travelled in the bus convoys on two separate

 7     occasions, one trip towards Vlasic and another towards Gradiska.  He

 8     accompanied the convoy to Gradiska for two reasons.  First, he wanted to

 9     understand the experience and how passengers felt; second, he felt

10     compelled to escort his Muslim friends to the border.

11             Mr. Bojinovic's convoy trip toward Gradiska was unescorted by

12     police and seemed similar to convoys he previously observed departing.

13     He noticed passengers of various ethnicities on the bus.  He saw Muslims,

14     Croats, Slovenians, and Serbs.  Uniformed men did not stop the bus and

15     Mr. Bojinovic never observed any mistreatment of passengers.

16             The second convoy Mr. Bojinovic accompanied went to Vlasic,

17     towards Travnik.  The convoy consisted of a single bus which contained

18     several passengers from mixed marriages between Serbs, Croats, and

19     Muslims.  Despite the condition on mountain roads, Mr. Bojinovic did not

20     experience anything unusual travelling to Vlasic.  The police and the

21     agency operatives escorted the bus, yet Mr. Bojinovic did not observe any

22     passenger mistreatment or illegal activity.

23             The agency closed in December 1992 and the refugee commission

24     continued providing the services previously provided by the agency.

25     Mr. Bojinovic never heard negative comments being made towards the

Page 44696

 1     non-Serbian population during his time as chief.  Similarly, he never

 2     heard Serbian politicians propose limitations against non-Serbians, nor

 3     did he ever hear of Serbs seeking to cleanse the area.

 4             Mr. Bojinovic never heard people allege the agency was extorting

 5     money from non-Serbs.  If someone had, in fact, made such allegations,

 6     those allegations would be untrue.  People were leaving because the war

 7     made the area unsafe, not because of ethnic cleansing.

 8             And that would be a short summary.  At that moment, I would not

 9     ask Professor Bojinovic anything.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bojinovic, as you have noted, your evidence in

11     chief has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written -- your

12     previous testimony in the previous case.  Now you'll be cross-examined by

13     the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do you understand

14     that?

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Yes, Ms. Sutherland

18                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

19        Q.   Sir, your evidence is that you held no official position in the

20     SDS; correct?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   And certainly not a member of the Main Board?

23        A.   No.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 1D26027, please.

25        Q.   This is a document that's been uploaded in this case by the

Page 44697

 1     Defence which lists members of the Main Board which include many people

 2     this Trial Chamber is familiar with, including Mr. Karadzic.  We can see,

 3     for example, Bozidar Vucurevic, Mladen Nedic, Mico Stanisic, and we also

 4     see your name at number 3.  So this document shows that you were more

 5     than just a candidate for the Main Board?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I tender that exhibit.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  I would ask --

10             JUDGE KWON:  But would you ask whether he confirms whether he was

11     a member.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yeah, I was just about to do that.  Sorry,

13     Your Honour.

14        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, as I said, this shows that you were more than just

15     a candidate, that you were, in fact, a member of the SDS Main Board,

16     doesn't it -- or you were, weren't you?

17        A.   No, no, that's not correct.  I was just a candidate for a member

18     of the Main Board.  When you say "more than a candidate," I don't

19     understand that.  I was a candidate but I was never elected a member of

20     the Main Board.  And you can see it quite clearly.  Under 3,

21     Milos Bojinovic, yes, I am here, my name is here, I was a candidate.  And

22     that's that.

23        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, it was your words, saying that you were only a

24     candidate when you testified in the Brdjanin case.

25        A.   That's correct.

Page 44698

 1        Q.   So this document lists you as a member of the Main Board, not as

 2     a candidate for the Main Board?

 3        A.   I can't explain that based on this.  If I had been a member of

 4     the Main Board, I would have attended meetings throughout the year;

 5     however, I did not attend any meetings.  This is a list of potential

 6     candidates for the positions as members of the Main Board.  So this is

 7     not an official document.  If this were an official document, it would

 8     bear a party stamp and you can't see it here, so I believe that

 9     everything is clear.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance?  Perhaps if

11     it would help if Madam Sutherland would explain the period from which

12     this document originates.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I don't think that that's necessary.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Let's continue.

15             We'll receive it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6558, Your Honours.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   Now, sir, it's also your evidence that you were not politically

19     active --

20        A.   Please, please, may I be allowed to address the Court?  May I

21     react, please?  It is very important to look at the date on this

22     document, the date could have been --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bojinovic, you stated this is a -- just list of

24     candidates.  Would you like to add anything to that?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.  This list of candidates

Page 44699

 1     could have been drafted on the eve of the establishment of the party and,

 2     in official terms, the party was established on the 12th of July, 1990.

 3     Up to that --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, Mr. Karadzic will ask more questions.

 5             Shall we continue, Ms. Sutherland?

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   And, sir, it's also your evidence that you were not politically

10     active in Glamoc municipality; that's correct, isn't it?

11        A.   No.

12        Q.   No, you weren't politically active?

13        A.   No.

14        Q.   You said Milan Babic was the first president of the SDS in

15     Glamoc?

16        A.   No.  Milan Babic, I'm not familiar with that name.  I'm familiar

17     with the family name Babic.  After I left Glamoc, I don't know who the

18     president of the municipal SDS board was.  Before I left, nobody was

19     president.  People just gathered --

20        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic --

21        A.   -- and no president had been elected.

22        Q.   You said at transcript page 22824 when you were asked who was the

23     first president of the SDS in Glamoc, you said:

24             "Up until the establishment of the SDS, there was no president.

25     After the SDS was established in 1990, I think it was Milorad Babic.

Page 44700

 1     Babic.  That's his family name.  But I'm not sure about his first name."

 2             Now, that's what you did say when you testified previously,

 3     didn't you?

 4        A.   Yes, it is possible.  Let me tell you it is possible --

 5        Q.   But in fact --

 6        A.   -- but a lot of time has passed since then, but I'm not familiar

 7     with that at all.  I don't understand.

 8        Q.   But in fact, Mr. Bojinovic, the first SDS president that was

 9     appointed was yourself, wasn't it?

10        A.   I couldn't be the president of something that hadn't been

11     established yet.

12        Q.   Upon its establishment --

13        A.   People did hold me in high esteem --

14        Q.   Upon its establishment, you became the first SDS president, did

15     you not?

16        A.   No, no, I was never --

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 25749, please.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Please do not overlap.  Could you repeat the number.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  25749, and my apologies, Your Honour.

20        Q.   This is a document of questioning of Radoslav Simidzija on the

21     11th and 12th of June, 1995.  Do you know a person by that name who lived

22     in Glamoc since 1976?

23        A.   No.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could we go to page 11 of the English

25     translation and page 6 of the B/C/S, please.

Page 44701

 1        Q.   Now, we see there that Mr. Simidzija states that Milos Bojinovic

 2     was the first president of Glamoc SDS.  And he says in the current

 3     chairman, that is 1995, there is a certain Babic from S. Selo.  Do you

 4     still maintain that you weren't the first SDS president?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender this document.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Your Honour, the evidence is --

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, I'm sorry, it's in the record.  It's in the

 9     record.

10        Q.   You continued your involvement with the SDS when you moved to

11     Banja Luka in July 1992 --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  I'm not sure to which question the

13     witness answered "yes."

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Oh, oh, I will clarify that, Your Honour.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Bojinovic, do you agree that you were the SDS

18     president in Glamoc in the beginning?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to explain that.  The

20     position of the president of the SDS did not exist before the

21     establishment of the SDS.  There was a person who chaired a gathering,

22     where the SDS is discussed, somebody who chairs a gathering.  But a

23     president has to be elected and receive a letter of appointment with a

24     stamp of the party.  I never received that and I never was that.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Does it mean that you chaired a gathering?

Page 44702

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not every gathering, in the early

 2     days.  Later on, meetings would be chaired by whoever is elected, whoever

 3     is chosen.  One meeting lasts for about an hour and then the chairperson

 4     is chosen.  I was not always the chairperson, only when people would

 5     choose me.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So most specifically, you agree that you chaired

 7     some of the meetings, SDS meetings?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

10             Shall we continue.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:

12        Q.   [Microphone not activated]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Microphone.

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Microphone, please.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   You continued your involvement with the SDS when you moved to

17     Banja Luka in July 1992, yes?

18        A.   I don't understand, what do you mean by "you continued your

19     involvement"?  I was a member of the SDS but I didn't hold any high

20     positions in the SDS.  So clarify what you mean by "continued your

21     involvement."  What exactly do I understand by that?

22        Q.   You said when you testified in the Brdjanin case that you were a

23     member of the SDS throughout?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   You knew Nenad Stevandic, did you not, in Banja Luka?

Page 44703

 1        A.   No, no, no.  I know Stevandic only now.  I didn't know him then.

 2     Only now when Stevandic became a deputy from the SDS party.  At that

 3     time, I had no idea of his existence.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may we go into private session,

 5     please.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7                           [Private session]

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 44704











11  Pages 44704-44709 redacted.  Private session.















Page 44710

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6                           [Open session]

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Sir, the agency to which you were appointed was an organ of the

10     Autonomous Region of Krajina government, yes?

11        A.   Yes, yes.  Please, now -- because the Assembly of the ARK

12     established the agency.  It must have had a government.  Somebody had to

13     have jurisdiction over the agency, the Assembly or the government, but it

14     was all within the ARK.

15        Q.   By the latter part of 1992, the work of the agency was basically

16     or almost exclusively organising travel to send people outside

17     Republika Srpska, wasn't it?

18        A.   Not only that.  Travel is the last part.  Before travel, we've

19     already had occasion to hear that there had been procedures for people to

20     register with the agency, to leave their addresses so that we can put

21     them in contact with people of non-Serb ethnicity so they can come to an

22     arrangement.  I must have talked about that before in the Brdjanin case.

23     The agency put people in touch, for instance, Muslims and Croats and --

24     or Serbs or Slovenes would come to the agency, leave their addresses, and

25     say:  I have in Banja Luka such and such an apartment or a house, I would

Page 44711

 1     like to swap it for something in Zagreb, Sarajevo, Zenica.  And then

 2     Serbs would contact us from these areas from which they had fled, leave

 3     their addresses, and we would put that up on a board and people would

 4     look for appropriate swaps.  That was one of the types of assistance the

 5     agency provided --

 6        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic --

 7        A.   -- second, people were able to -- yes, sorry?

 8        Q.   You testified in the Brdjanin case that -- you were taken to a

 9     document which listed five services that the agency was supposed to

10     offer, and you said that in relation to at least four of them, that you

11     weren't doing that particular -- that you weren't providing that

12     particular service.  And in fact, the only thing you were doing was

13     providing the bus service and you were making it possible for people to

14     obtain addresses of other interested persons so they could contact each

15     other.  And that's what you said at transcript page 22886.  That's right,

16     isn't it?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   Now, you say that there were only one or two convoys leaving per

19     month.  One witness in the Brdjanin case, that's BT94, said at transcript

20     page 18005 that two or three buses a day were leaving and he witnesses

21     convoying leaving the agency "day-in/day-out."  He said that he saw huge

22     crowds next to the workers' centre where that was happening.  He said

23     there would always be a throng of people, a multitude of people waiting

24     there, queuing to get out.

25             This, what I've just said to you in relation to his evidence,

Page 44712

 1     represents the reality of the situation, doesn't it?

 2        A.   Is my comment required?

 3        Q.   Yes.  In fact, not a comment but an answer to my question.  This

 4     was the reality of the situation, wasn't it?

 5        A.   Yes, yes, yes.

 6        Q.   Thank you.

 7        A.   No, no, it's not that.  The person who said there was a multitude

 8     of people doesn't understand anything.  Do you know what it means, a

 9     multitude of people?  A multitude of people of lined bodies which do not

10     move, so it cannot be a multitude of people.  About the long lines, where

11     would they fit?  There was no room for such queues.  People came normally

12     to our offices --

13        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, you said you were receiving a --

14        A.   What did I say?

15        Q.   You were receiving 500 requests a day, were you not?

16        A.   No, no, no, impossible.  Where would 500 applications come from

17     when it was impossible to organise transport every week?  It all depended

18     on the security situation.  There was a war going on, people.  We cannot

19     drive people through war zones.  It could have been once, twice, or three

20     times a month, three times a month max, not four, which means not every

21     week.  And there was only one bus, perhaps two or three depending on the

22     situation.

23        Q.   Thank you.

24        A.   Only once were there five or six buses, as far as I remember.

25             I want to use this opportunity to answer another question --

Page 44713

 1        Q.   No, Mr. Bojinovic --

 2        A.   -- I was asked how many people in total left --

 3        Q.   I will ask you the questions and you will answer them to the best

 4     of your ability.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honours, in relation to 500 requests a day,

 6     I would refers Your Honours and the accused to P03857.

 7        Q.   You said that you -- that people paid the -- this is in your

 8     testimony, that people paid the bus fare to leave which was regulated by

 9     town laws and you said it was the same fee as other regular bus lines

10     applied.  But there were no other bus lines, were there, because Putnik

11     and Atlas Travel had been shut down by the ARK Crisis Staff, hadn't they?

12        A.   I don't know whether it was shut down.  It's possible that in the

13     area of AR Krajina there was transport available.  But the price of the

14     ticket was regulated by certain regulations --

15        Q.   Who gave you this fee that you had to charge?  Who gave you the

16     amount of the fee that you had to charge?

17        A.   No one gave it.  Regulations existed.  The Official Gazette and

18     our secretariat simply followed the regulations.  It wasn't an aunt or a

19     grandpa from the municipality who came and told me:  Mr. Bojinovic, this

20     is how you're going to do it.  No, it's not done like that.  There are

21     regulations, the Official Gazette, the secretariat, which follows all

22     that and everything is done in accordance with the law.

23        Q.   Now you said that it wasn't an exorbitant amount; is that right?

24        A.   Is that a question?

25        Q.   Yes.

Page 44714

 1        A.   I don't understand what you mean by exorbitant price or a low

 2     price or a middle price.  I don't know.  There is a standard price, the

 3     standard price that you cannot go outside of much, either below or above.

 4     For example, the price of the ticket from Banja Luka to Gradiska was

 5     known from beforehand.  The price of the ticket from Banja Luka via

 6     Gradiska, for example, up to the border with Croatia was a bit more

 7     expensive and so on and so forth.  So when I say the fees were standard,

 8     standard for a certain route and the routes were longer or shorter and so

 9     on.

10        Q.   People were interviewed by the Special Rapporteur Mazowiecki, who

11     said they were forced to pay a fee of 300 Deutschemarks to the agency per

12     person to leave for a Muslim-controlled territory?

13        A.   Have you asked me a question?  Please ask a question so I can

14     answer with a yes or no or make a comment.  If it's just a comment of

15     yours, I'm left waiting and I'm not sure what to do.

16        Q.   This -- you're aware that people were paying up to

17     300 Deutschemarks to leave on your -- through your agency, weren't you?

18        A.   That's not correct, no, no.  That's malevolence of the person who

19     told Mazowiecki or whoever that.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 11511, please.

21     And if we could go to page 3 in the middle of the page, paragraph 8.

22        Q.   Now, this is what the Special Rapporteur said, that both the

23     local authorities and the immigration agency in Banja Luka organised

24     their displacement, this is 14.000 people that -- that were in the city

25     of Travnik, and they said:

Page 44715

 1             "... and that some of them had paid a fee of up to

 2     300 Deutschemarks per person to leave for a Muslim-controlled territory.

 3     They were driven towards the front lines, but were obliged to leave the

 4     bus several kilometres before reaching it and to cross the combat zone as

 5     best they could.  En route they were repeatedly beaten, robbed, subjected

 6     to various forms of harassment and in some cases raped or shot."

 7             So are you saying these people were lying to the

 8     Special Rapporteur?

 9        A.   You have asked me a big question.  You read out from a document.

10     Which people, which rapporteur, and specifically could you summarise that

11     a bit, please, so that we may simplify matters?  Please don't introduce

12     such big issues here.  I can see that there are some numbers here,

13     19.000 people, 14.000 displaced people, 300 Deutschemarks.  Please ask me

14     one question at a time.

15        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, those figures -- the document states that the city

16     of Travnik had a population of 19.000, has now had to accommodate an

17     additional 14.000 displaced people.  And that many of the people that the

18     Special Rapporteur interviewed told him that both the local authorities

19     and an immigration agency in Banja Luka organised their displacement and

20     that some of them had paid a fee of up to 3.000 [sic] Deutschemarks per

21     person to leave for a Muslim-controlled territory.  Now, you know that

22     people were paying these large sums of money to leave your agency --

23     through your agency, aren't you?

24        A.   All right, I shall answer in view of the figures.  As for the

25     people who lived in Travnik, I don't know.  How many people Travnik

Page 44716

 1     planned to accommodate there as refugees, again I'm not aware of that.

 2     No one ever told me this.  As for people paying 300 Deutschemarks to the

 3     agency, that's not true.  Who they told that and when, I wouldn't know.

 4     With what goal they said that, I don't know, but they didn't say it in

 5     honesty.

 6             It's easy to say anything once you leave the area of Banja Luka

 7     and go over there, it's easy to say anything, but that's not true, it's

 8     not correct, and it's not fair, so I deny all of this.  It's not true

 9     that anyone ever paid 300 Deutschemarks to the agency because it was not

10     necessary.  I mean, what was 300 Deutschemarks at the time?  Where would

11     poor people get so much money at the time?  Please, come on.

12        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, there's no question, is there, that the people who

13     were leaving on the buses were mostly Muslims.  That's what you said when

14     you testified in the Brdjanin case?

15        A.   Mostly Muslims, but there were others too.  There were Croats,

16     there were Serbs, mixed marriages.  Who was leaving and for what reasons,

17     I wouldn't know.  What was up to me was to make it possible for people to

18     leave in a normal way.

19        Q.   You said at transcript page 22889 when you were asked who the

20     majority of people were leaving -- who were the majority of people

21     leaving Banja Luka, you said:

22             "The majority were Muslims."

23             And you went on at page 22899 to say:

24             "These people were not from Banja Luka only, not exactly the way

25     it was, that Muslims were leaving Banja Luka en masse.  We were contacted

Page 44717

 1     by people from Banja Luka and from places where conflicts were nearby."

 2        A.   Yes, that's correct.

 3        Q.   And when you were asked who was leaving you said at transcript

 4     page 22806:

 5             "There were people from mixed marriages too, here and there the

 6     occasional mixed marriage between Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, whoever

 7     felt that it was safer for them to go to Travnik."

 8        A.   No, no, not to Travnik, excuse me.  Only once one bus went to

 9     Travnik because leaving for Travnik was unsafe.  Why?

10        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic --

11        A.   -- there was a war going on between the Croats and the Muslims --

12     yes, please.

13        Q.   That was your testimony at page 22806.  We can bring it up if you

14     really want to see that.

15        A.   Can you please repeat it.

16        Q.   You were asked who was leaving --

17        A.   Yes.

18        Q.   -- that is, which ethnicities were leaving on the buses, and you

19     said and your answer is:

20             "My apologies.  There were people from mixed marriages, too, here

21     and there, the occasional mixed marriage between Serbs, Croats, and

22     Muslims.  Whoever felt that it was safer for them to go to Travnik."

23        A.   I don't think it was exactly to Travnik, but outside of the

24     territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, that is to say Banja Luka,

25     but not to Travnik.  I have said it again now.  Whoever believed that he

Page 44718

 1     was threatened, the agency offered him an opportunity, and for Travnik

 2     there was a single bus.  We wouldn't allow people to go to the combat

 3     zone.  It was dangerous for those who were driving and for the people who

 4     were leaving there.  We were not so inhumane that we would send people

 5     away to get killed.  If need be, I will clarify that the family of a

 6     colleague of mine which insisted to go to Travnik, I didn't allow them to

 7     go.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic --

 9        A.   -- and the family waited for almost a month --

10        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, I have limited time.  I need to move on.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Since you referred to your time, I think you passed

12     your time that you suggested.  How long --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Well, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I --

14             JUDGE KWON:  -- how much more do you need?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I need another -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I

16     wasn't aware that I'd reached my time.  I need another 15 minutes.  I

17     think I could safely wrap it up.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

21        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, despite the numbers involved and despite your

22     official role in the Autonomous Region of Krajina, you professed to be

23     completely mystified about why people were leaving.  That's right, isn't

24     it?

25        A.   No, that's not what I claim.  I'm not claiming that I have no

Page 44719

 1     idea why they were leaving.  I know perfectly well why they were leaving

 2     and I have explained it.  They were leaving because of uncertainty.  Both

 3     the Serbs and the Croats and the Muslims and the Slovenes, they did

 4     leave.  Why were they leaving?  Everywhere where the war broke out, there

 5     were unofficial elements which were out of control and in order for

 6     people to be secured, to be safe, somebody had to take care of them.  In

 7     my Glamoc, Serbs used to kill one another among themselves --

 8        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic --

 9        A.   -- you mentioned in the beginning the three --

10        Q.   -- we're discussing now people leaving from Banja Luka.  You were

11     asked what happened in Banja Luka during the time you were chief of the

12     agency to make the Muslims feel unsafe and you said:

13             "I don't know.  It was peaceful in Banja Luka."

14             And that's transcript pages 22898, line 23, through to 22990,

15     line 3.

16             Some of the evidence that we've heard in this case is

17     Mr. Andjelko Grahovac, who said that -- who knew that hundreds of small

18     businesses belonging to non-Serbs were blown up at night in Banja Luka.

19     And he was aware that thousands of Muslims and Croats were evicted from

20     their apartments, sometimes by creating fear in them and sometimes by

21     people breaking into their apartments and throwing them out of their

22     apartments in Banja Luka.  Internationals reported explosions and

23     machine-gun fire 24 hours a day.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And for the Trial Chamber and the accused,

25     that's P02939.

Page 44720

 1        Q.   You didn't hear about any of these things that were going on in

 2     Banja Luka?

 3        A.   What Mr. Andjelko Grahovac stated is his statement --

 4        Q.   No, Mr. Bojinovic --

 5        A.   -- I did not see these things -- yes?

 6        Q.   -- I'm asking you about the incidents that I referred to.  Did

 7     you or did you not hear and see these things happening?

 8        A.   No, I did not see these things happening.  And one could hear

 9     that people were disturbed, that they were leaving enterprises.  You

10     could hear that in conversation with simple people, but as for me, seeing

11     something and being convinced, no.  That 100 firms were blown up, no.

12     That would mean that all of Banja Luka was razed to the ground and

13     Banja Luka is still standing.  There were no combat operations at all.  I

14     had been in Banja Luka since 1990.  I didn't see that.  I had colleagues

15     who worked together with me in high school and to this day there are

16     Croats and Muslims who work there.  If you would like me to do so, I will

17     tell you their names.  I don't know about this.  I'm not sure --

18        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic --

19        A.   -- what this is.  People went because they were feeling unsafe,

20     but they didn't -- yes, please go ahead.

21        Q.   -- we have evidence in this case that non-Serbs had lost their

22     jobs, they were being harassed and then marginalised and they feared

23     persecution.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And for the Trial Chamber and the accused that's

25     P03857.

Page 44721

 1        Q.   This Trial Chamber has received evidence that ARK leaders, and

 2     particularly the president of the ARK Crisis Staff, publicly demeaned and

 3     dehumanised Muslims and called for their expulsion.  Do you claim that

 4     you were totally oblivious to this?

 5        A.   I was never present in a situation when anyone was abused,

 6     mistreated, thrown out of a company, or anything.  I claim this with my

 7     full responsibility, that in high school that I went to after the agency,

 8     people remained in their posts and worked on, both Croats and Muslims.

 9     If you'd like, I will give you their names.  Some were principals for two

10     terms of office, please.  So I did not see what you are putting to me

11     now.  No, I cannot lie, I haven't seen that.

12        Q.   Some of the evidence in this case, Mr. Kupresanin heard from

13     Serbs that Brdjanin said that only a thousand Muslims could stay in

14     Banja Luka.  Mr. Grahovac again talked about a percentage of Muslims and

15     Croats that Brdjanin said would be allowed to stay in the

16     Bosanska Krajina, and the rest would leave.  Mr. Erceg spoke about

17     repeated statements of the president of the Crisis Staff of the

18     Autonomous Region of Krajina, public statements, some in very ugly forms,

19     that Muslims had to go.  He said Brdjanin did make those statements.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please -- I would like to

21     have the statements of these witnesses literally and specifically quoted

22     to the witness and read out to him because if you just make a sort of

23     mishmash like this, then it leaves a different impression.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I wasn't paraphrasing the evidence.

25     I can read out what Mr. Grahovac and Mr. Erceg say in the transcript.

Page 44722

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure which would be the best way, but the

 2     witness will be better off if you deal with one by one or just put your

 3     case.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, it was -- it was actually the --

 5     those witnesses that I just read about were talking about the one issue,

 6     and that is Brdjanin saying that people had to leave.  Only a small

 7     percentage would be allowed to stay.

 8        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, so it's your evidence that you weren't aware of

 9     Mr. Brdjanin saying that only a small number -- a small percentage would

10     be allowed to say.  That's your position, isn't it, that you were never

11     aware of that?

12        A.   I didn't hear from him when he said that, but people did report

13     that he was saying something to that effect.  But I did not hear it from

14     his specifically because I was not present in a situation, if something

15     like this was said.

16        Q.   And so --

17        A.   And whatever he said, that's for him to explain.

18        Q.   And so when you were asked -- when you were asked why -- what

19     would it be to make Muslims feel unsafe and you said "I don't know," it

20     never occurred to you that this might be a factor in people leaving their

21     homes, their positions, and the lives they had built?

22        A.   It's possible, but I know that many Croats and Muslims stayed.

23     It all depended on the mental structure of the people, their emotions and

24     so on.  I think that this is a question that I'm not competent enough to

25     answer.

Page 44723

 1        Q.   Let me take you to one example.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can I have 65 ter number 25743, please.

 3        Q.   Sir, this is an article which was published in "The Guardian" on

 4     the 29th of September, 1992.  It was an article written by Ian Traynor.

 5     And if we can go to paragraph 5, we can see that Mr. Vukic -- Dr. Vukic

 6     says -- he's an obstetrician and he recently stated no Muslim or Croat

 7     woman would be allowed to give birth in his hospital.  And he also said

 8     that -- he quotes Radoslav Brdjanin and says that he just announced "that

 9     Banja Luka has room for only 1.000 Muslims.  The other 29.000 would have

10     to go 'one way or another.'"

11             "One way or another" being in quotes.

12             You're living in Banja Luka at this time, in September 1992,

13     weren't aware of these public threats that were being made by Dr. Vukic

14     and Brdjanin which were reported in the British press?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One clarification.  We heard in

16     translation that what Brdjanin said, that Vukic actually told that to the

17     journalist and it's not so.  [In English] Who quoted Brdjanin?

18             JUDGE KWON:  You may ask -- you may clarify with the witness.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic --

21             THE ACCUSED:  But it is a part of question, not a part of the

22     answer.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:

24        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, this article states that Radoslav Vukic said

25     recently - this is in September 1992 - no Muslim or Croat woman would be

Page 44724

 1     allowed to give birth in his hospital.  That's the first thing.  The

 2     second thing this article states is that Radoslav Brdjanin, who was head

 3     of the regional war committee who has just announced "that Banja Luka has

 4     room for only 1.000 Muslims.  The other 29.000 would have to go 'one way

 5     or another.'"

 6             Now, as I asked you, you were living in Banja Luka at the time,

 7     in September 1992, you didn't hear these public statements being made by

 8     Dr. Vukic and Brdjanin?  You did hear them?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   Did you say --

11        A.   No, I didn't hear them, but if something like that was said by

12     Dr. Vukic, then that was not nice.  He had to have taken the

13     Hippocratic oath.  If he did say that, I would not agree.  It shouldn't

14     be done.  However, you say here Vukic told Brdjanin and Brdjanin told

15     Vukic and so on and so forth.  I don't know what they told one another.

16        Q.   I didn't say that --

17        A.   -- as I man, I have this position that -- yes, please.

18        Q.   I didn't say that, Mr. Bojinovic.  I specifically said --

19        A.   Well, I'm receiving interpretation, so ...

20        Q.   Okay.  If we can go to paragraph 8 it says there:

21             "Ten days ago, 150 [sic] people paid 100 Deutschemarks a head to

22     the agency for the final stage of their transfers, after having

23     surrendered their property in Banja Luka and boarded buses to the

24     Croatian border."

25             Now, again this is a figure being paid to your agency of

Page 44725

 1     100 Deutschemarks a head.  Do you still deny that people were having to

 2     pay these amounts of between 100 and 300 Deutschemarks, some of the

 3     people that went through your agency?

 4        A.   People were not forced to pay between 100 and 300 Deutschemarks

 5     but the price of the ticket as it was set because there would be

 6     consequences for us, the agency, if we were working like that.  The

 7     authorities functioned in Banja Luka.  We couldn't work independently.

 8     It wasn't like this.  100 or 300 Deutschemarks, it's a lot of money.

 9     People did not have that and the poor people carried with them what they

10     had.  I personally gave my own money to the Glamoc Muslims and they cried

11     when they realised what it was and they offered me -- please, they

12     offered me:  No, you take it, you need more, and it will be easier for me

13     to fend for myself here because this is my people.  So that was my

14     position.

15        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, I wish to take you to two other portions in this

16     document and that's on page 2, the second paragraph.  We see here it

17     says:  "Foreign relief" -- it's reported in this article that:

18             "Foreign relief workers in the town are staggered by the levels

19     of hatred, violence, and victimisation they are now encountering every

20     day."

21             And that is the Muslims encountering every day this -- these

22     levels of hatred, violence, and victimisation.  You didn't see this,

23     living in Banja Luka?

24        A.   I don't know who could have seen such hatred in the street.  How

25     can you know from someone's face if he were a Serb, a Croat, a Muslim, a

Page 44726

 1     Jew, a Pole, and how can you see on his face hatred against other people?

 2     For me, this question makes no sense.  I cannot answer it.

 3        Q.   And lastly, the second-to-last paragraph on page 2, the

 4     portion -- now it starts:

 5             "Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader who came here last

 6     Friday to try to sweet talk Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen, told The Guardian

 7     the same day that 'Banja Luka is a peaceful town.'  The night before,

 8     Serbian special units sealed off the district of Hiseta and ordered all

 9     the residents out of their houses, barking their orders through

10     megaphones.  Local Muslims thought they were headed for Manjaca or

11     Trnopolje, but it was a false alarm - just another exercise in

12     intimidation."

13             Now, again, something else that you weren't aware of that was

14     happening in the town that you were living in, of Muslims being

15     intimidated and taken out of their houses?

16        A.   Question?

17        Q.   I said you're not aware -- that this is something else that

18     you're also not aware of, people being intimidated by their houses being

19     searched and being thrown out of their houses?

20        A.   I never saw this.  I was not looking on.  When did that happen,

21     how did it happen?  No, I had my job, I'm a family man, I had to take

22     care about that, and I tried to help the people who addressed me.  And

23     whether there were some paramilitary formations and some incidents, I

24     didn't see that.  Banja Luka is a big town, let me tell you.  I cannot be

25     simultaneously in all places where possible excesses were taking place.

Page 44727

 1     So when you say "were you aware," it's a little bit -- well, was I aware.

 2        Q.   Mr. Bojinovic, I'll put it to you, it's disingenuous of you to

 3     say that you don't know why thousands of non-Serbs are seeking your

 4     agency to leave Banja Luka when all of this is going on in Banja Luka at

 5     the time that you're living there.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  What objection --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have told you this --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness did not say why -- that

10     he didn't know why.  He said that he knew quite well why they were

11     leaving.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  No --

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has been explained that people

15     were leaving because they were feeling unsafe, not only the Muslims,

16     though.  The majority were the Muslims, that is correct.  But it was not

17     just the Muslims.  There were the Croats also, fewer, and the Serbs, also

18     fewer.  There were the Slovenes as well.  There were people from mixed

19     marriages.  And now it's insisted here that in Banja Luka there was a

20     general widespread persecution of Muslims.  I did not notice that.  I'm

21     sorry, excuse me, but I did not notice that that was so.

22             In high school where I worked, people continued working, the

23     Croats and the Muslims.  A Croat woman used to be the principal for eight

24     years.  A secretary was -- there were two and now there's another one who

25     is a Muslim, the secretary.  The colleagues who were teaching there.  So

Page 44728

 1     what are we talking about here?  This was the high school, a public

 2     institution, where other intellectuals worked side by side with me

 3     without any problems.  I have a list with me, the list of persons who can

 4     be called here to testify and to confirm whether this is correct or not.

 5     There were people who stayed on and worked on in high school.  There are

 6     my friends, Muslims, whom I helped.  So if I need to present all this to

 7     you, if these people need to be consulted, you can find a way to do that.

 8     But to create such a picture like this, that there was a general

 9     persecution, almost a massacre, that's not correct.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]

11             I seek to tender that document.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, most of it has been read out,

14     but if you do admit it, I would ask you to consider for the weight of the

15     document how there is absolute complete absence of attribution of any

16     information to named people in that article.  It is really quite a

17     remarkable piece of journalism actually.

18             JUDGE KWON:  My question, I was wondering why this document is to

19     be admitted through this witness.  Contradiction, Ms. Sutherland?

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Did he -- I didn't go through his testimony, but did

22     he contradict in his testimony what is -- with respect to what is

23     described in this article?

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I -- I'd asked him whether he was

25     aware of these things occurring.  He said it wasn't -- he was living in

Page 44729

 1     Banja Luka at the time these things were occurring.  I think in order for

 2     you to -- sorry, Mr. Tieger wants to say something.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  No, I don't think -- I will consult my colleagues.

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I add something?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Mr. Robinson, when he said it went to the weight

 8     of the document, is basically agreeing that it's impeachment.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Now, for the purpose of impeachment, I think the --

10     given that the all most relevant parts were read out to the transcript,

11     the Chamber is of the view that it's not necessary to admit this.  We'll

12     not admit it.

13             And you're done with your --

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, thank you.

15             JUDGE KWON:  -- cross-examination.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And I appreciate Your Honours' indulgence.

17             JUDGE KWON:  How much do you need, Mr. Karadzic, for your

18     re-examination?

19             THE ACCUSED:  Ten minutes, I suppose.

20             JUDGE KWON:  We'll ask the audio unit whether we have sufficient

21     tape for ten minutes.  If yes, we'll continue.

22             We have only 11 minutes, but are you confident that -- otherwise

23     we'll rise for ten minutes and then we can continue, and then after which

24     we'll have a 20-minute break for the preparation of the next witness.

25             Yes --

Page 44730

 1             MR. ROBINSON: [Overlapping speakers] --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  -- we'll take a brief adjournment.  We'll resume at

 3     ten to 11.00.

 4                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 9        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor Bojinovic, could I ask you to give the

10     name of some prominent Muslims and Croats who stayed in Banja Luka

11     throughout the war?

12        A.   I'm going to give you the names of my colleagues who were all

13     professors at the Banja Luka grammar school, and that grammar school has

14     a tradition spanning over a hundred years.  Azijada Bera, who was the

15     grammar school secretary.  The current secretary is Majda Pucar who is

16     also Muslim.  Professor Begic, who had joined the grammar school to teach

17     physics.  Jasna Maric, the teacher of art history.  Amira Zmiric, who is

18     the teacher of German.  She worked at the school and now is a member of

19     the faculty at the university and so on and so forth.  There are a few

20     more people who I used to see around town, but let me tell you I have

21     forgotten their names.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Do you believe that Vukic and Brdjanin proffered

23     those words as their official position?  How would Radic have reacted?

24     Would he have accepted that as a political stance?

25        A.   No, Radic is a gentleman and he would not have accepted such a

Page 44731

 1     policy, but it is possible [Realtime transcript read in error "policy"]

 2     that Brdjanin and Vukic said something to that effect on some occasion.

 3     I'm not denying that, it is possible, but I did not hear them say that.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Probably line 11 should say "it is

 6     possible" instead of "it's policy."

 7             Yes, please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   It is possible that they said that.  Did the local authorities

11     and Radic implement things of the kind that are ascribed to Brdjanin and

12     Vukic?

13        A.   No, no, Banja Luka was a peaceful city during Radic's term of

14     office and chapeau to him for that.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And now I would like to call for a paper to be placed

16     on the ELMO.  You saw that report in which it is stated that Travnik had

17     19.000 inhabitants and that it had to receive an additional

18     14.000 refugees.  Could you please read from the document, how many

19     inhabitants did Travnik have in 1991 according to that year's census?

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be zoomed in, please.

21     [In English] Please, could you enlarge it, could you augment it.  Thank

22     you.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Professor, could you please tell us what was the total number of

25     inhabitants in Travnik and how many of them were Croats, how many were

Page 44732

 1     Serbs, how many were Yugoslavs, and how many were others?

 2        A.   I can't find Travnik.

 3        Q.   It's the first line.

 4        A.   A total 70.000, Croats 24.000, Muslims 31.000, Serbs 7.000,

 5     Yugoslavs 3.600, others 1.000, and then those who did not declare their

 6     ethnicity.

 7        Q.   Others, 1.093?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   So the information that we heard about 19.000 is not correct?

10        A.   I suppose it's not.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

12     document to be marked for identification pending translation.  Actually,

13     the only thing that needs to be done is to transliterate it into the

14     Latinic script.  The rest is clear.

15             JUDGE KWON:  What is this from, Mr. Karadzic?

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is from an official

17     publication, the Serbian version albeit, of the last census which was

18     carried out in 1991.  You can double-check the information in the

19     Croatian version.  The same list was compiled by the Republic of Croatia,

20     which was not its call but still it did it.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have no objection.

23             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives MFI D4179, Your Honours.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 44733

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Professor Bojinovic, the indictment against me alleges that we

 3     expelled people and forced them to leave, and we can see that people had

 4     to collect some certificates, to pay for their ticket, to wait to be

 5     placed on a list.  Could the two things be reconciled?  Did they actually

 6     ask to be allowed to leave or did we chase them out?

 7        A.   No, we did not force anybody to leave.  People who felt the need

 8     to leave came to us for help.  It was not us who approached them; it was

 9     the other way around.  They gained enough trust in the agency because

10     those who had left before them sent them a word that they were safe and

11     that they could travel.  That's my comment.

12        Q.   Did you have any feedback from the people whom you had helped to

13     travel?

14        A.   Yes, I had a lot of feedback, especially from my fellow citizens

15     from Glamoc who were of Muslim ethnicity.  They called me from Sweden,

16     from Paris.  And when I go to Glamoc, where I have my apartment, I get

17     together with me -- with them, and we are very glad that the war is

18     behind us, that we are still living, and that we can get together and

19     socialise.

20        Q.   You were quoted back statements from some witnesses about the

21     distribution of weapons among the Serbs.  Did the Serbs respond to

22     mobilisation calls or did they have their own paramilitary formations?

23     And I'm talking about Glamoc.

24        A.   As far as Glamoc is concerned, I don't know anything about the

25     distribution of weapons that would go beyond official channels.  The

Page 44734

 1     soldiers in the Glamoc Brigade were mobilised when that was needed.  They

 2     received weapons.  And as for paramilitary formations and some special

 3     distributions of weapons, I don't know anything about those things.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  And now my last question --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Very well, the last question was very leading.

 6     Please continue.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Professor, can you tell us in view of the fact that it was

 9     alleged that you were a member of various boards and so on and so forth,

10     were you earmarked to become a member of the board and when were the

11     first elections for the real board?

12        A.   The population of Glamoc expected me to become politically

13     active; however, they were aware of my character.  I'm a poet more than a

14     career person, so I never accepted any of the positions that were offered

15     to me.  And I must say that some very good and high positions were

16     offered.

17        Q.   When were the real elections for the Main Board?

18        A.   I believe that that was only after the SDS was set up in Sarajevo

19     on the 12th of June.  That's when the Main Board was elected, and I was

20     disregarded for that.

21        Q.   What did we call those groups of people that assisted in the

22     setting up of the party?  You just mentioned the word.

23        A.   Groups of people who helped --

24        Q.   You just mentioned initiative boards?

25        A.   Yes, initiative boards.  This actually means the beginning, when

Page 44735

 1     things start being created, when an initiative is launched.  So the

 2     initiative boards were those that alerted us to the imminent danger to

 3     which we had to react instead of just sitting idle and watching chaos

 4     brewing.

 5        Q.   Were you a member of any of those initiative boards?

 6        A.   Yes, I was.  Because I knew or I realised that in

 7     Bosnia-Herzegovina things were beyond control and that the situation

 8     was -- would breed problems.  And I spoke to everybody, not only Serbs,

 9     also to Croats and Muslims, in the grammar school.  I urged them to be

10     proactive to avoid the repetition of the Second World War.

11        Q.   Just briefly, could somebody consider you a president if you were

12     a member of the initiative board or steering committee?

13        A.   You know how people are, they believe you are a president as soon

14     as you have a position although that was never official.

15        Q.   Professor Bojinovic, thank you very much.

16        A.   Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  That concludes your evidence,

18     Mr. Bojinovic.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for

19     your coming to The Hague to give it.  Now you are free to go.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would like to

21     thank you for your invitation, for the confidence that you placed in me,

22     for your patience, and I would like to ask you to forgive me if I did not

23     abide by your rules.  I'm a poet, I write literature books.  Once again,

24     thank you.  I wish you a lot of success in your work and a lot of health.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll rise all together.

Page 44736

 1             We'll resume at 11.33.

 2                           --- Recess taken at 11.12 a.m.

 3                           [The witness withdrew]

 4                           [The witness entered court]

 5                           --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, good morning.  We're joined

 8     during this session by Goran Petronijevic, who is the co-ordinator of our

 9     Defence team in Belgrade.  And I would -- we were planning on just having

10     he and I here, but we're also going to use some videos with this witness

11     and he and I aren't very good at that.  So we would wonder if it would be

12     okay if we could have an additional person in the courtroom during this

13     period which would be our case manager, Mr. Stevanovic, to operate the

14     videos.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Any observation, Ms. Pack?

16             MS. PACK:  No, no observations, Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

18             That's granted.

19             Would the witness make the solemn declaration, please.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

21     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

22                           WITNESS:  KW12

23                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Did you say something, Mr. Witness, after having

25     made the solemn declaration?

Page 44737

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said, I've been saying for

 2     20 years what has been done to my life and what sort of lies are being

 3     spread here, and still you never called me, and that the Mothers of

 4     Srebrenica asked me to testify in Sarajevo.  It's not my fault.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll hear your evidence --

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's an error in the transcript.

 7     The witness said that the Mothers of Srebrenica prevented him, together

 8     with the authorities in Sarajevo, prevented him from testifying.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do you confirm having said so, Mr. Witness?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and I stand by that.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I take it you understand you are testifying under

12     certain protective measures, that is, you will be called by pseudonym,

13     which is KW-12, not referring to your real name, and your image will not

14     be broadcast outside this courtroom.  And whenever we discuss your

15     identity, we'll go into private session so that the others, i.e., the

16     other people outside this courtroom cannot follow who you are.  Do you

17     understand that?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So whenever you want to talk about something that

20     may reveal your identity, please notify us in advance so that we can go

21     into private session.  Do you also understand that?

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right.  Yes, it is clear.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, sir.

24             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 44738

 1                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.

 3        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

 4        Q.   Could I just ask you to put a pause between questions and

 5     answers.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we call up 1D09534, not to be

 7     broadcast.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can you tell us if your name is under this number?

10        A.   Yes.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this under seal.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives document number D4180, under seal,

14     Your Honours.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpreters wanted to suggest

16     something.

17             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreters just want to ask the witness

18     again not to start replying while Mr. Karadzic is still speaking.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Do you understand that, Witness?  Since Mr. Karadzic

20     and you are speaking the same language, so there needs to be some pause

21     between the question and the answers for the interpreters to conclude

22     their interpretation.  Do you understand that?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all right.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 44739

 1        Q.   Could you please tell us, were you a member of the BH army?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   You started answering again too soon.  Could you briefly describe

 4     what happened during the war from the beginning of April to the

 5     28th of May, 1992.  In your area, were there any clashes in April, any

 6     skirmishes, and between who?

 7        A.   Yes, there were some between paramilitary units, Arkan's men, on

 8     one hand, and Naser Oric and his men, his army, as they were known at the

 9     time; and there were a couple of villages that were attacked.

10        Q.   So what was the outcome of these clashes?  Were there any losses?

11     What transpired between them?

12        A.   There was one ambush set in Potocari where these Arkan's men were

13     killed, everybody knows that, and then there was the mopping up, the

14     cleansing, of Cumavici, which is a village.  And there was one ambush in

15     Zeleni Jadar under Osmace.  Osmace is a road that leads to Osmace

16     village.

17        Q.   Thank you.  What is the population of these two villages,

18     Cumavici and Gniona?

19        A.   Those were majority Serb villages.

20        Q.   And who set these two ambushes in Zeleni Jadar and Potocari?

21        A.   In Potocari, Naser Oric and Hakija Meholjic, Mujo Mandzo

22     organised this ambush.  How shall I explain it?  I'm just trying to

23     explain briefly so you can understand.  That ambush was set in Potocari

24     when they killed this Arkan's men.  Hakija Meholjic, Mujo Mandzo and

25     Naser Oric were the leaders around whom their people gathered and they

Page 44740

 1     organised this ambush in Potocari.  Whereas the ambush in Zeleni Jadar,

 2     near Sinan's shop, was organised by the men under commander Skraljivode

 3     [phoen] and the first commander of that group was Akif.  He set an ambush

 4     there to intercept an army convoy that was going towards Srebrenica, they

 5     killed some people, they slit their throats, and they hanged them.  They

 6     hanged the bodies.

 7        Q.   Was this Akif Ustic?

 8        A.   I don't know, Mr. President, what his real surname was.  After so

 9     many years -- in that area, I remember only where my own house was.  At

10     that time I knew where his house was, but I didn't know his surname.  But

11     it's somewhere around.

12        Q.   Which troops did they ambush?

13        A.   At the beginning of the war, it was the JNA.  They wore those

14     olive-green-grey uniforms, as we called them SMB.

15        Q.   Did anything happen right at the place where you enter Bratunac,

16     on the 2nd or 3rd May, involving the JNA?

17        A.   When you enter Bratunac?

18        Q.   In the place called Hranca.  If you were not there, it doesn't

19     matter.

20        A.   There was shooting around Hranca and Glogova.  It's about 2 or

21     3 kilometres from Bratunac.  But to tell you the truth, I didn't know the

22     details at that time, I wasn't there.  We were in Hranca later in 1993.

23        Q.   Did anything dramatic happen on the 8th of May; and if so, what

24     was it and how did it affect your area?

25        A.   You mean 1992, on the 8th of May.  It had a strong impact on us

Page 44741

 1     residents of Bratunac.  That was when Goran Zekic was killed.  He was a

 2     member of some sort of Presidency in Sarajevo.  I have no idea.  Maybe he

 3     was SDA or some other party.  I'm not sure.

 4        Q.   But what was his occupation normally?

 5        A.   I don't know, Mr. President, what he was.  He was a teacher or a

 6     politician, a professor.  I don't know exactly what his position was.

 7     All I know was that he was on the Presidency.

 8        Q.   What happened after that?  What did the Serb police demand?

 9     Could you describe the --

10             MS. PACK:  Objection, objection.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

12             MS. PACK:  That's a leading question, and I just want to be --

13     just to make that note of caution with this witness, that Dr. Karadzic

14     should avoid leading the witness.  This is one of the first leading

15     questions, but I just mark it now.

16             JUDGE KWON:  "What happened after that?"  Is that a leading

17     question?

18             MS. PACK:  No, no, "what did the Serb police demand,"

19     presupposing that there was a demand.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             If you could tell us what happened after that.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Then I will ask Mr. Karadzic to reformulate his

24     question.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

Page 44742

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   You said it had caused tensions, but can you describe the chain

 3     of events after the 8th of May?  What was happening and were you somehow

 4     involved in these events?

 5        A.   The 10th May came after that, when we were rounded up in

 6     Bratunac.  I need to know where to start from.  On the 8th of May, that

 7     man was killed in Potocari.  I came back from Potocari.  In Bratunac, on

 8     the 9th of May, it was quiet and peaceful.  I'm talking about 1992.  On

 9     the 10th of May, they -- our own neighbours attacked us, rounded us up,

10     and took us to the football-pitch in Bratunac, all of us, Muslims, I

11     mean.

12        Q.   Did you have a good insight into the events before the

13     8th of May?  You mentioned those two villages and two ambushes.

14        A.   In Gniona and Cumavici, I saw those decapitated bodies and the

15     heads on the ground.  I went to that area to bring my ex-wife, and the

16     first time they did not let us go through to Ruovci [phoen], and that's

17     the first time we heard about Gniona.  Naser Oric surrounded the Serb

18     people, asked them to turn over their weapons, guaranteeing their

19     security, and then he captured those people, killed some, including some

20     policemen, I knew one of them, and one other man from Lehovici, who

21     captured this policeman --

22             THE INTERPRETER:  The witness is speaking too fast.  He has to

23     repeat the answer.

24             MS. PACK:  Your Honour --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 44743

 1             Yes, Ms. Pack.

 2             MS. PACK:  I can see that we are going down the road of this

 3     witness testifying about crimes allegedly committed by the ABiH against

 4     Serbs.  This is the second answer which purports to describe those sorts

 5     of events, and I just want to at this point caution Dr. Karadzic and

 6     raise this as a potential issue.  In my submission, evidence of crimes

 7     against Serbs is not relevant.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I think that would be contrary

10     to everything that has taken place in Krstic, Popovic, Blagojevic, and

11     Tolimir trials with respect to Srebrenica events.  The background of the

12     conflicts in that area including attacks against Serb civilians has been

13     an integral part of the evidence in the case and to understanding what

14     happened in 1995 and as well as 1993.  So it seems to me that this is

15     different than crimes against Serbs in other aspects of our case that we

16     have been -- that has been excluded.

17             MS. PACK:  Might I just make one observation, which is that we

18     are talking here about 1992 --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a ...

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, the Chamber agrees with Mr. Robinson's

22     observation, that background material is relevant to the case; however,

23     I'd like to emphasise that we are not -- the Chamber is going -- proposed

24     to hear the evidence on the basis of tu quoque -- not to hear the

25     evidence on the basis of tu quoque.

Page 44744

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Excellencies, but

 2     I'm only interested in the chain of events which led to other events.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Mr. Witness, it's not clearly recorded in the transcript where

 5     the heads that had been cut off were posted and what happened with the

 6     policeman on the spit.

 7        A.   The heads in Zeleni Jadar below Osmace near Sinan's shop, below

 8     and above the road, they were on the staffs or staves, depending on how

 9     you call them, they were placed on those staffs.  And as for the

10     policemen it's Cumavici and Gniona, two places one next to the other, two

11     villages.  Cumavici is on the hill, and Gniona is a bit - how should I

12     put it? - in the valley, down below.  If you look from there you can see

13     into the neighbouring village.  And in Cumavici, the policeman was burnt.

14     Amir personally used to know him before that and Amir asked him:  Well,

15     the time comes for me to pay the fee.  Whether the policeman was a

16     traffic policeman who stopped him previously and asked him to pay a

17     speed -- gave him a speeding ticket, but he was roasted on a -- on the

18     spit.  And I was present there and I know what that was all about.

19        Q.   It's not been recorded, "the spit," but we'll manage.  Thank you.

20             So this was done after they had handed over their weapons;

21     correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23        Q.   And now please help us with this:  Was Glogova the subject of a

24     request for the delivery of weapons and what happened around the village

25     of Glogova before --

Page 44745

 1             MS. PACK:  Objection, that's a leading question.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  All right.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   You told us a little while ago that you were taken to the stadium

 6     on the 10th.  Don't tell us who, but was anyone of your family members

 7     taken with you and did anyone stay in the village?

 8        A.   My mother --

 9        Q.   You don't have to say who.  You can just say --

10        A.   My mother and my 4-year-old son stayed there, and I and my father

11     were taken to the stadium.

12        Q.   Thank you.  At the stadium were you arrested; and if so, who

13     arrested you?

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted) and also what was done because it could affect --

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   And where were you taken there?

22        A.   I was taken to the Vuk Karadzic primary school from the stadium.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could you tell us how they treated you there and who

24     did that?  Who was doing what?  How many persons were arrested and taken

25     to the school and who was doing what?  How were these people treated?

Page 44746

 1        A.   When I got to the school with my father, in the gym there was a

 2     man called Bane and another one called the Macedonian.  I also found

 3     several people on the left-hand side as I entered the school who were

 4     lying down on the floor.  My father was also told to lie down, and it

 5     lasted like that until the dark.  Then another group of people were

 6     brought, and the locals, the Serbs, whom we knew because we had been

 7     living together with them, some were nice, others argued.  And then later

 8     they told this Bane and the Macedonian how and what, who should be beaten

 9     up, who should be killed, and that happened on the 10th in the evening.

10     They began beating us, killing us.  They killed this one man.  I can't

11     tell you the numbers, but in my presence around 20 people or so were

12     killed.  And I learned and I was told at the time that these people had

13     been Seselj's men, the White Eagles.

14        Q.   Aha, the White Eagles.  Okay.  I see it's recorded now.  And

15     please tell us, you said that people ordered this because they wanted to

16     settle their previous accounts with their acquaintances, they had some

17     unresolved matters; correct?

18        A.   Yes.

19        Q.   Thank you.  And how did this arrest of yours end and the

20     suspicion that it was you who had shot, how did it all end?

21        A.   It was on the 12th -- let me just explain.  Please listen to me,

22     everyone.  On the 10th of May we were brought to the football-pitch, on

23     the 10th in the afternoon.  From the football-pitch I was brought to the

24     gym at around 3.00 or 4.00 p.m.  In the evening while we were lying there

25     and everything, whatever you call it, this roll-call started, the locals

Page 44747

 1     would come and say:  Get me this guy.  And then the local wouldn't beat

 2     him or kill him, but it was this Bane or the Macedonian who did that.

 3             Another thing, all the way until the 12th of May, 1992, the

 4     two days and two nights that I spent there, this Bube came to my door and

 5     told me, as we were talking, and he said:  Neighbour Joska, here's a beer

 6     and a coffee, you're still alive and I'll be seeing you.  So around 450

 7     of us who would be selected and numbered, around 450 people would be

 8     taken for exchange.  And we were taken to Pale then.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  In line 5 it says:  Neighbour Joska, was he neighbour

10     Bube or what was his name?

11        A.   Bube Ristanovic.

12        Q.   Thank you.  And did you understand this as being pardoned or that

13     you were no longer a suspect?

14        A.   I believe that I was pardoned because perhaps he had an unclear

15     conscience because he probably realised that I wasn't the one who had

16     shot.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Was your father joined to the people who were

18     transported to Pale?

19        A.   Yes, he was.

20        Q.   Thank you.  And how were you treated in Pale?  Did you have

21     access to water, food, and were you provided with any medical assistance?

22        A.   As for Pale and our arrival there, I can't say anything bad.  I

23     can just say good, that I want to thank all the policemen and the

24     hospital.  If these people hadn't jumped immediately and taken me, I

25     would have died.

Page 44748

 1        Q.   You arrived in a bad shape; correct?

 2        A.   I arrived in a bad shape.  I was all cut.  No one ever put any

 3     bandages on me in Bratunac until I arrived up there.

 4        Q.   Were you provided with medical care?

 5        A.   Yes, immediately.  The doctors were there and military police and

 6     ordinary police, and no one can say to me that anyone was beaten in Pale.

 7     We had better security than in Bratunac.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, are you all right to continue?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm all right, Judge, but you

10     cannot understand me.  These moments, all of this, to this day when it's

11     the exact date, I have health problems.  And these key questions have an

12     impact on me.  For me it's something - how should I tell you? - I don't

13     know, I don't know how to describe that.  But all right, I'll stand it.

14     I've withstood worse.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Whenever you find it necessary, please let us know,

16     we'll have a break at any time.

17             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Are you crying and are you disturbed because of these memories?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   How long did you stay in Pale --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Probably we need to --

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.

25             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break.

Page 44749

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't ...

 2             JUDGE KWON:  We'll break for 45 minutes.  We'll resume at five to

 3     1.00.

 4                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.09 p.m.

 5                           --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Witness, I'll try and not to dwell upon the most painful

10     subjects.  When were you exchanged and where?

11        A.   On the 13th of May, 1992, I was taken from Pale to Cekrcici,

12     that's a village where I was exchanged; and from there I was taken to

13     Visoko.

14        Q.   Thank you.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 40115 and can we

16     go into private session.  I believe that the document has already been

17     admitted under a P number.  But before we proceed, could we go into

18     private session for a moment.

19                           [Private session]

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 44750











11  Pages 44750-44751 redacted.  Private session.















Page 44752

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18                           [Open session]

19             THE REGISTRAR:  We are in open session, Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   And now can you briefly tell us what happened to you before you

23     returned to Srebrenica, where were you and how did you finally return to

24     Srebrenica?

25        A.   From Visoko, when I recovered, I was offered by TO commanders to

Page 44753

 1     stay and join the TO units in Visoko.  That was offered to us from

 2     Bratunac.  Some people stayed.  A majority of us decided to go to Tuzla.

 3     With the help of the Croatian army - and they were known as HOS forces -

 4     who had arrived from Kakanj, we were exchanged, but it was not Sarajevo

 5     who exchanged us, it was the Croats who exchanged us for some Serbs.  And

 6     then from Visoko and Kakanj we arrived in Tuzla, across Ozren mountain,

 7     and we arrived in Banovici.  From Banovici we were sent to various

 8     schools.  I was sent to the school in Djurdjevik together with my father

 9     and many other people.

10             In the meantime, in Djurdjevik, where a refugee camp was set up,

11     the 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade that had arrived from Croatia under the

12     command of Nurif Rizvanovic arrived in the hotel in Zivinice.  I learnt

13     from other natives of Bratunac and other people whom I knew, I learned

14     they were at the Hotel Zlaca.  And that's how I went from the school in

15     Djurdjevik, together with a young lad whose family name was Civis, on

16     foot to Zlaca and I reported to the 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And what about that brigade, where did it go?  When

18     did you arrive home?

19        A.   My first encounter with weapons and the first attack we carried

20     out was in Stevici village near Ozren.  A relay was destroyed in 1992 and

21     it was held by the Serbs.  That first night we went for something that

22     would be training to get used to the fire and war activities.  We spent

23     an entire week there.

24             When we returned to the hotel in Zlaca, Nurif Rizvanovic assigned

25     some 20 of us to go to Tinja.  In my statement I already stated - and I'm

Page 44754

 1     going to repeat before you - that Tinja was in the hands of the JNA and

 2     they didn't wear camouflage uniforms, but normal olive-drab uniforms of

 3     the army of the former Tito's Yugoslavia.  We had an operation there.  We

 4     repelled the troops.  We destroyed two lorries on the road leading from

 5     Tinja to Srebrenik or something like that.  On that bridge there we

 6     destroyed two military lorries.  We also took some prisoners, Serbs.  Two

 7     Serbs were put on a bus.  Those Serbs were beaten all the way to the

 8     Zlaca hotel.

 9             I omitted to say one thing.  The 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade was

10     a unit to which people were selected who had survived a hell, like, for

11     example, I did in Bratunac.  Those were special people who had seen

12     Seselj's men and White Eagles killing people and doing things like that.

13     The 16th Eastern Brigade was under the command of Taran, Alija Muskic and

14     Senad Hodzic who was the commander of the police in Bratunac.  They told

15     us:  If you want to enjoy a better treatment in the unit, like was

16     enjoyed by five platoons, each about 20 men strong, and they were known

17     as Kondors and you could join them only after you had completed training

18     or that you, by Taran and Osmanovic Adil, if you were selected by them

19     you would be trained and only then could you join one of those platoons.

20     And you had to complete a job in front of Medo Jakupovic, you had to slit

21     the throat of one Serb in order to join one of those units.  That's the

22     job before you had to complete before your superiors.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether we are talking about

24     two paramilitary formations or are we talking about the White Eagles and

25     you thought they were Seselj's men?

Page 44755

 1        A.   Let me tell you, Mr. President, at that time in Bratunac, rumour

 2     has it that those were White Eagles and that they were Seselj's men.  I

 3     don't know whether there was any other kind of information about anybody

 4     else.  I don't know exactly.  Rumour had it that Arkan's men were there

 5     as well, as well as the White Eagles.  But, however, when things were

 6     happening in the Bratunac gym, when people were being killed and beaten,

 7     all that involved the White Eagles, i.e., Seselj's men.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  The two lorries that you destroyed, were there any

 9     troops in those lorries?  Were there any casualties?

10        A.   Yes, there were troops who were sitting in the back, but those

11     lorries were hit by the so-called RPGs, the big rocket-launcher that they

12     had brought back from Croatia, the RPG.

13        Q.   Thank you very much.  What happened next?  How many people put up

14     their candidacy to join the Kondors and how big that unit and how

15     independent it was?

16        A.   There were people --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

18             Yes.

19             MS. PACK:  It was developing into a leading question.  It just

20     survived not being one, if Dr. Karadzic be careful.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   So there were 200 men?

Page 44756

 1        A.   Mr. President, there were 200 men, there were Kondors in black

 2     uniforms.  They -- and in the 16th Muslim Brigade there was a group of

 3     over 200 men who were known as Sarenci [phoen], they had special

 4     camouflage uniforms, green berets, and Kalashnikov machine-guns.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  And where did you arrive then and when?

 6        A.   Then we went -- and we are talking about the time when we

 7     returned from Tinja; right?

 8        Q.   No, when did you arrive home?

 9        A.   I went to a place called Miljanovci, on the road from Zvornik to

10     Tuzla, and we spent a couple of days there.  We were told that we should

11     attack a hilltop called Vis, which is on the left-hand side from

12     Miljanovci as you enter Miljanovci from Zvornik.  We were also told that

13     we would be helped by the units from Tuzla, which were known at the time

14     as the Dragon of Bosnia.  They were going to help us with tanks and

15     mortars and we were supposed to launch an infantry attack in order to

16     take Vis.  When we attacked Vis, they did not help us, there were no

17     tanks, there were no mortars, so we had to withdraw.  During that

18     withdrawal, we spent a night in Miljanovci, and from there we proceeded

19     towards Hajvazi.  We were supposed to attack Hajvazi and to kill the Serb

20     population there, all of them, in order to free the corridor between

21     Tuzla, Kalesija, Miljanovci, and Hajvazi, to free the passage to

22     Zvornicka Kamenica that was at the time held by the Muslims.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So what happened in Hajvazi?  How did you fare?

24        A.   In Hajvazi, when we arrived there, the first night one of our

25     soldiers from the 16th Muslim Brigade was killed.  He had kept a diary.

Page 44757

 1     He recorded who killed whom, who slit whose throat.  He was killed that

 2     night, not by the Serbs but by somebody else, I don't know who.  From

 3     there we proceeded in the morning.  We started deploying at dawn and we

 4     proceeded towards (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12     up to 1998 or 1999, on account of a false information that I had been

13     killed.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 3, or rather, line 5 to

15     line 10, can that be redacted.  If you agree, I believe that this should

16     indeed be done.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   And did you engage in Hajvazi?  Did you manage to take Hajvazi?

20        A.   We collected our dead and we returned to - what's it called? - a

21     village near Kalesija.  We buried them there and then we returned to

22     Haj -- Zvornicka Kamenica.  There was some killings there, we captured

23     some Serbs.  Taran and his brother Kobra killed those Serbs.  I had to

24     pull them into high grass.  Taran had told me to bury them.  I didn't

25     want to dig holes.  I just dragged them over there some 10 or 15 metres

Page 44758

 1     away.  I asked some people to go to that sector to find them because I

 2     didn't believe that somebody came and collect their bodies, but we didn't

 3     get the approval to go there to that location.  And then --

 4        Q.   How many Serbs were killed?  Were they killed in fighting or had

 5     they been arrested?

 6        A.   Mr. President, they were on a horse and a cart.  There were five

 7     or six of them.  One had a semi-automatic rifle.  Taran Osmanovic and his

 8     brother Kobra arrested them.  They jumped on them immediately.  We had to

 9     obey their rules, and then they killed those five men.  A group of people

10     came out of a streamlet, including women, and they told us that they had

11     arrived from Srebrenica, that they were Muslims.  Among them there were

12     women and men, and Taran ordered us to kill them, that they should not be

13     allowed to say what had happened to the previous five men.  So we did

14     that, and again I had to drag those bodies with some other lads who were

15     with me.  We had to drag those bodies.  We were supposed to bury them in

16     holes, but I never wanted to bury those men.  He shouted at me, asking me

17     why I wouldn't do that.  I couldn't, I just couldn't.  I pleaded -- I

18     still plead with the International Tribunal to allow us to go to Hajvazi

19     to that location and then you will gain the best picture of what had

20     happened there, because the Federation never allowed us to go there to

21     that location.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Were those really Muslims, these civilians?

23        A.   Mr. President, they claimed they were going from Srebrenica and

24     they were Muslims, but all they had on them were photographs, no

25     passports, no IDs, and no evidence, no proof.  It wasn't like a woman

Page 44759

 1     could produce an ID and say:  I'm Ajsa.  Some were wearing Turkish

 2     pantaloons, another was wearing Muslim clothing.  But even if they had

 3     had IDs to prove they were Muslims, they would still have been killed by

 4     Taran in order to prevent this story from spreading about who had killed

 5     the previous five.

 6        Q.   How many were these civilians?

 7        A.   That was the first group.  Are we talking about the first group

 8     at Hajvazi?  Two women and three men.

 9        Q.   What is the real name of this Taran?

10        A.   Adil Osmanovic.

11        Q.   Thank you.  And where did your unit go after that?

12        A.   We returned from there to Miljanovci, and there we get orders to

13     go again to Neza -- Nezuh.  In Nezuh we spent a few days waiting for a

14     guide whose nickname was Ninja.  After a couple of days, he took us to

15     Konjevic Polje.

16        Q.   What happened in Konjevic Polje, who did you meet with?  Or did

17     you join anyone, and who was leading you at that point in the 16th?

18        A.   The 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade, when they came from Nezuk with

19     this Ninja guide, we were there for a while as the 16th Muslim Eastern

20     Brigade, not long, until Naser and Zulfo Tursun came, accompanied by

21     Amir, and they held a meeting in Konjevic Polje in the schoolhouse.

22     Nurif Rizvanovic took out a yellow envelope there and handed it to Naser.

23     When Naser saw from that paper that Rizvanovic was supposed to be the

24     commander all the way to Bijeljina, that he would be like the

25     Commander-in-Chief in that area, Naser didn't agree with it and Zulfo

Page 44760

 1     Tursun didn't agree with it, so they scheduled another meeting to be held

 2     in Srebrenica.  A couple of days later, the orders came that we were

 3     going to Srebrenica for that meeting and it was in the Hotel Domavija.

 4     They couldn't come to an agreement there either.  It was decided that we,

 5     the 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade, under the command of Nurif Rizvanovic

 6     would have as our area the area up to Konjevic Polje, and the rest would

 7     be under Naser.  And the agreement reached at that meeting was that we

 8     would help each other out.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Sorry, Mr. Witness, do you

10     understand English?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know much English, very

12     little.

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.

18                           [Trial Chamber confers]

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you can wear the headphones again.

20             Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber wanted to know where we were heading.

21     Through this -- it's a bit difficult to follow this line of evidence.

22     Can you assist us?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll try, Your Excellencies.  What

24     I want is to put to the Trial Chamber the atmosphere with all its

25     military and civilian aspects, from Zvornik to Zepa, then we will be

Page 44761

 1     moving on from 1993 to 1995, to see who the people were who were in

 2     command there.  We'll do it very briefly, we'll see what was going on,

 3     who was killing whom, and then we will move on to the crisis in 1993 and

 4     then the crisis in 1995.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 6             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, just one thing.  It may be that there's a

 7     need for a redaction at lines 11 to 12 of page 70.  It's a matter for the

 8     Defence and Your Honours, of course, but just highlighting it.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  I was going to suggest that, yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Duly noted.

11             Please continue.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  And we could also

13     redact, perhaps, the information provided by Mr. Robinson about where the

14     witness had lived for some time.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Now, I'd appreciate it if you could do this briefly.  Let us just

17     concentrate on what happened and then move on to 1993.  What happened

18     with your unit and with Nurif Rizvanovic?

19        A.   You mean very briefly, after that meeting in Konjevic Polje?

20        Q.   Yes, no details.  Just the events.  This happened, that happened.

21     How was this disagreement between Rizvanovic and Naser Oric resolved?

22        A.   The agreement when we came was for us to attack that village.

23     Nurif Rizvanovic and the 16th Muslim Brigade, assisted by Naser Oric and

24     Zulfo Tursun and other units, we attacked Siljkovici, but they didn't

25     help us.  And we immediately lost ground because Naser stabbed us in the

Page 44762

 1     back, spreading stories among the people:  You see what kind of army this

 2     is, they were not able to get into Kravica.

 3             And then what happened next in Srebrenica, we, the 16th Muslim

 4     Eastern Brigade, all the able-bodied people in Srebrenica, who were

 5     suffering shortages of food, et cetera, et cetera, we were supposed to

 6     help them to go to Tuzla.  We agreed.  Commander Rizvanovic and Tursun

 7     promised to help us, and we, the 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade, were

 8     supposed to take these people to Tuzla.  We agreed.

 9             When the people gathered and when we headed from Konjevic Polje

10     across Cerska, Redzici, Bajrici, Zvornicka Kamenica, when we reached

11     Crni Vrh, we had Motorolas, we had a radio that belonged to us, the

12     16th Brigade.  There was the second incident of back-stabbing.  Naser

13     called the Serbs and told them that 3.000 Mujahedin were coming to attack

14     them, and then a plane came and started bombing us with some incendiary

15     ammunition and the Serbian army started defending that road thinking that

16     we were the Mujahedin and we were about to attack Zvornik.  A lot of men

17     got killed there.  One part of our column managed to get through, and the

18     first commander at the head of that column was Velid Sabic.  One group of

19     the people managed to get through with him, and the rest of us were

20     engulfed in battle between Crni Vrh and Gornja Kamenica.  It was a very

21     difficult situation.  They were coming at us from all sides, but we

22     managed to get out.  But still we --

23        Q.   Could you speak more slowly so that everything is recorded.  What

24     kind of losses did you suffer and what happened with those bodies?

25        A.   To tell you honestly, Karadzic, we had losses and people from our

Page 44763

 1     unit were buried in Zvornicka Kamenica.  We had losses but I don't know

 2     exactly how many, but lots of us were killed and some of the people who

 3     were with us.

 4        Q.   Did somebody later bury them to the best of your knowledge?

 5        A.   I don't know about those people, ordinary people, who were

 6     following us.  After that we came to Konjevic Polje, and then a couple of

 7     days later news came from Srebrenica.  An attack followed at Ilino Brdo

 8     and Cerska.  Again, the 16th Brigade with Nurif Rizvanovic were supposed

 9     to be there for the next couple of days to await that attack.  Nurif was

10     wearing a jumper and camouflage pants.  A lot of local residents from

11     Cerska were getting killed, and again -- how can a sniper hit a civilian

12     in a trench and cannot hit Nurif Rizvanovic?  So that back-stabbing

13     campaign started again.  Nurif Rizvanovic is not being targeted by the

14     Serbs, et cetera, et cetera.

15             We had two cousins from Bijeljina, we call them the diesel guys.

16     Out of those two cousins, two were killed and another man were killed

17     from Bratunac.  After those seven days when we were waiting for that

18     attack at Ilino Brdo and trying to defend ourselves, during that attack

19     Zulfo Tursun and Naser Oric came to Konjevic Polje.  Naser Oric went to

20     Cerska and Zulfo Tursun stayed with his men there.  They arrested

21     Rizvanovic and attacked us because we were allegedly attacking our own

22     people.

23        Q.   We are talking too fast.  So what happened?  He was arrested and

24     taken to Srebrenica; right?

25        A.   Nurif Rizvanovic, when he was arrested, he was locked up the

Page 44764

 1     first seven days in Konjevic Polje, in a warehouse, where there is a

 2     petrol station now.  There was a shop there at the time.  Naser came and

 3     Zulfo Tursunovic promised that he would be tried in Srebrenica.

 4     Zulfo Tursun and another man who drove a motor cultivator took him from

 5     there, passed through Konjevic Polje, and liquidated him somewhere near

 6     Sandici.  Nobody knows to this day where his body is.

 7        Q.   Can you now tell me briefly what happened with your unit after

 8     the murder of Nurif Rizvanovic?

 9        A.   A couple of days later, an offer was made to us to go where we

10     wanted to go to Srebrenica.  Some went to Srebrenica.  I went personally

11     to join the independent battalion in Glogova.

12        Q.   And how many losses did you have at Ilino Brdo and who buried

13     these people?

14        A.   Seven.  These people from Cerska, they had their own workers'

15     platoon that picked up the wounded and the dead, but where they took them

16     I don't know.

17        Q.   And how many casualties?

18        A.   In my unit, the 16th Muslim Brigade, we lost 15 to 20 pieces --

19             MS. PACK:  Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, we've been going for quite some time now,

22     and I am struggling --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MS. PACK:  -- to see the relevance of most of this testimony, in

25     particular the detail.  I struggle to see the relevance.

Page 44765

 1             JUDGE KWON:  That's why I asked the question.  It's up to you how

 2     to use your time, but it's inappropriate to delve into such detail while

 3     background may be relevant to this case.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.  This

 5     witness waited for ten years to tell someone the truth --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- so it's difficult for me to stop

 8     him.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  -- inappropriate comment, but please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just repeating what he said

11     when he made the solemn declaration.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Now, Witness, can you tell us, what did your battalion hold in

14     the meantime?  Why did it stop holding what it was holding and where did

15     you go next?

16        A.   At that time we were deployed in Konjevic Polje along lines.  By

17     that time I had joined the Independent Mountain Battalion in Glogova, and

18     I held the line from Burnice village near Previla hill, until an order

19     came from Srebrenica, from Ejub Golic, that everybody who had joined the

20     independent battalion and all the Glogova residents should gather

21     together to get Glogova back.

22        Q.   Did you manage, and until what time did you defend it?

23        A.   Yes, we recaptured Glogova and managed to defend it all the way

24     until 1993, mid-April 1993.

25        Q.   It's much better when you answer briefly.  And where did you go

Page 44766

 1     then and why?

 2        A.   Then I moved to Srebrenica because Naser had come to Glogova

 3     several times.  We didn't want to leave Glogova, we had lost 150 of our

 4     men there, and it was hard for us to decide to leave Glogova.  And Naser

 5     came five or six times, begging us to leave Glogova.  He promised us

 6     better treatment in Srebrenica, and it's true to this day that the men

 7     from Glogova were the best fighters.

 8        Q.   And where were you during the Serb counter-offensive on

 9     Srebrenica and were you in Srebrenica when General Morillon was there

10     visiting?  And were you able, and from what distance, to follow, to

11     observe, his visit?

12        A.   In 1993, when the Serbs attacked Srebrenica, from Kragljivode,

13     from -- until that hill, I participated in all that until they told us

14     the UNPROFOR was coming.  At that point, I went to Srebrenica.  We had

15     our own special command for our men from Glogova, and I found myself

16     close to Morillon and Naser Oric, when he held that speech from the

17     window of the post office building.

18        Q.   Can we see you in that footage where Morillon is holding a

19     speech?

20        A.   Yes.  I was watching one of the cases here in The Hague when this

21     footage was shown, and I watched it again when I was in prison.  Again,

22     this same footage we saw a moment ago in the case of -- I don't remember

23     which trial it was.  And from that time I kept writing to the

24     International Tribunal in The Hague, that I was not dead, that I was

25     alive.

Page 44767

 1        Q.   I hope the Prosecution will give us that letter you wrote.

 2             And did you have occasion to be close to Naser Oric after you

 3     moved to Srebrenica?

 4        A.   Yes, a couple of times.  And I spoke to him, I had two meetings

 5     with him.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown, without

 7     broadcasting, 1D9584.  And could the witness be given the electronic pen,

 8     please, the Stylus.  This is not to be broadcast.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Could you please mark yourself with an arrow and Naser Oric as

11     well.

12        A.   That's him.  Take the footage from before, shave that face, and

13     you will be able to compare.

14        Q.   Put number 1 next to Naser Oric and 2 next to yourself.

15        A.   [Marks]

16        Q.   When was this taken?

17        A.   When we arrived in the centre of Kravica.  This large building

18     used to be a shop before the war.  It's in the centre of Kravica.  This

19     does not exist anymore because a monument has been erected in this place.

20        Q.   What date was it?

21        A.   7 January 1993.  Sometime afternoon.

22        Q.   Please place HV12 [as interpreted] in the bottom of the

23     photograph and today's date.

24        A.   [Marks]

25        Q.   W, all right.

Page 44768

 1        A.   Today's date?

 2        Q.   Yes, I think today's the 9th, if I'm correct.

 3        A.   [Marks]

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this please be admitted under

 6     seal?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives document number D4181, under seal,

 9     Your Honours.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

11             1D9585, please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, if I may just say

13     something about this photograph because there's a man here whom I know

14     and who is something.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please return it so that the

16     witness may, if the Chamber allows the witness to clarify this.  But

17     again, please do not broadcast it.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that this man here

19     whom you can see -- can we manage this, please.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Stylus has not been activated.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not activated.  I need this man

22     because of a grave in Kragljivode.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   He would know where the grave in Kragljivode was.  Whose grave is

25     it?

Page 44769

 1        A.   It's in the statement, once we get to that today or tomorrow,

 2     when the attack on Kragljivode was launched, when the Serbs and Russians

 3     were taken prisoners and buried and the grave is not there.  It has not

 4     been found to this day.

 5        Q.   It has been moved?

 6        A.   We have been in the field a metre or a metre and a half to it but

 7     it has gone missing.  It was all one grave next to the other.  This man,

 8     today he's the main man in charge of the graves, he searches for them.

 9     He's the main man today and I had problems with him when I came to my

10     town, to my native town, in 2010.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we just go into private

13     session for a minute to hear his name.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know his name.  I just know

15     that he's from Voljavac.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Then we don't need to

17     do that.  Now, if we can see the other document first.

18             But, excuse me, if we can add this to the previous number,

19     please.  No, it's unnecessary.  All right.  Fine.

20             1D9585, please.  That one should also not be broadcast, please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Can you be seen in this photograph?  We can see Naser.  Can you

23     just circle yourself, please.

24        A.   Well, I can't even recognise myself.  That's what the photograph

25     is like.

Page 44770

 1        Q.   You can't recognise yourself?

 2        A.   I can't recognise myself here because the photograph is all

 3     somehow like this, the face.

 4        Q.   All right.  We'll survive with just the one that we already had.

 5     Okay.

 6             Now I would ask you if you can, as briefly as possible, tell us

 7     how many actions Naser launched against the Serbian villages between the

 8     place when the protected zone was declared and 1995, July 1995?

 9        A.   There was an action in 1994 when we went up to help Gorazde, and

10     from there the troops were collected in Srebrenica and then they went to

11     help those at their back.  How can I explain to the Chamber and you and

12     everyone?  We had some sort of demobilisation [as interpreted] at the

13     time.  Nobody touched us.  No one shot at us, no one was attacking us.

14     But it was decided then and we went up there, I have a witness for that

15     also, who is now in the Foca penal and correctional facility.  We met

16     once.  We saw one another and were introduced.  That was during this

17     action.

18        Q.   In line 25, I believe that you said "demilitarisation," rather

19     than "demobilisation"; correct?

20        A.   Yes, that demote zone as it was saying on the boards at the time.

21        Q.   Thank you.  Were there any other actions in surrounding villages

22     that you were aware of when you went out into the Serbian villages and

23     outside from the protected zone?

24        A.   There was that one and it was said that the -- the headquarters

25     should be blown up, and once there was an ambush in -- near Crni Vrh,

Page 44771

 1     close to Zvornicka Kamenica, where some police and military troops were

 2     killed.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And could you now please tell us, what was the road

 4     travelled by your unit and you personally from the 11th of July in the

 5     evening up -- and then the first night and the second night and the first

 6     day and the second night and the second day, when did you start

 7     withdrawing and did you start withdrawing?  Did you leave as a unit?  Can

 8     you tell us as briefly as possible how did that go, who made the decision

 9     and where did you leave?  Where did you go to?

10        A.   Just briefly, on the 10th of July, 1995, under the command of

11     Ejub Golic, who was killed, and with Zulfo Tursun, who had a conversation

12     about money, the money didn't arrive in time, it was not distributed,

13     only to the independent mountain battalion.  And we left the front.  We

14     set off in the direction of Srebrenica.  We reached our command in

15     Srebrenica, where it was.  We burnt our papers.  Then we set out from

16     there and we reached the UNPROFOR base, and there a guard, as there was a

17     guard-house that was quite high, perhaps 3 metres, and there was one

18     guard who was at the gate and one who was there, they didn't allow us to

19     enter.  And one guard was killed, he was a Dutch man, and the other one

20     was wounded.  We then broke inside.  We collected our weapons which had

21     been seized from us as early as in 1993 when the UNPROFOR came and -- the

22     Canadians at first and then those Dutchmen also.  We collected our

23     weapons.  We boarded them on to a truck and with the truck we came above

24     a village which stretches from the graveyard in Kazani up until Fojari,

25     the village that's on the right-hand side.  I'm not sure what the name of

Page 44772

 1     the area is.  From there we transported the weapons to Cumavici, where we

 2     would need to be reviewed.  Whoever did not have a rifle was given one.

 3     And the people who left from there, who wanted to go with the battalion

 4     was going together with us.  From there we went down to Lehovici.  From

 5     Lehovici we reached Susnjari --

 6        Q.   You said that there was a troop review in Cumavici; correct?

 7        A.   Yes.

 8        Q.   All right.  Do you know who made the decision that all the

 9     28th Division should be sent towards Tuzla?

10             MS. PACK:  I don't think there was evidence to that effect yet.

11     That's a leading question, Your Honour.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  I shall rephrased it.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   How did it happen that the entire 28th Division should leave

15     Srebrenica and set out from there?

16        A.   We from the independent mountain battalion, from Glogova under

17     the command of Ejub Golic left the line, from Zeleni Jadar and the Tabla

18     hill all the way to another big hill whose name I didn't know, we were

19     holding the line but we didn't get the money as promised by Zulfo Tursun,

20     and we didn't get the money that came from Sarajevo in the helicopter

21     that crashed.  They were supposed to distribute 100 Deutschemarks to

22     every soldier, but one hodza and one woman went to Serbia.  They got

23     caught there.  They never distributed the money to us, and we abandoned

24     the front line.  Nobody wanted to defend Srebrenica for free and have

25     other people get rich at our expense.

Page 44773

 1        Q.   Thank you.  And do you know about the others?  Did all the

 2     brigade that were part of the 28th Division move towards there?

 3        A.   All of us, as we were going back from Tabla hill towards

 4     Srebrenica, all the people from the houses also set out in the direction

 5     of the centre of Srebrenica town.  And then all of the people, one group

 6     from Potocari, UNPROFOR via Susnjari to Buljim, all of us got together in

 7     Susnjari, the commands, and that was the place where we rallied.  And the

 8     people were moving towards Buljim and Tuzla because everyone had been

 9     told that we would be moving towards Tuzla.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us how you fared during the first night.

11     As briefly as possible, just list for us what were all the things that

12     happened during the first night as you set out and initiated a

13     breakthrough?

14        A.   During the first night when we started, Ejub Golic was next to

15     me, there was one young man we called Rambo, a relative of Ejub Golic,

16     and there was Kezo also, who was the commander of the 2nd Company of the

17     2nd Battalion and the Mountain Battalion.  And we were the last to set

18     off in terms of Buljim in the direction of Tuzla.  The column had moved

19     before us.  When we came down to a brook, from Buljim, once we reached

20     this brook, then an oak fell down rather than an elm, as I have been

21     hearing the witnesses say here for years, and this oak had carvings on it

22     made by a knife or a small axe and it had been set on fire.  It fell

23     5 metres in front of us.  When it fell down, people started shooting.  It

24     was the Serbs shooting from the direction of Sandici.  And from their

25     Pragas and their APCs, they fired.  And on the left-hand side, as we were

Page 44774

 1     moving from the direction of Srebrenica, we got engaged.  We went up the

 2     hill because there was a hill on the right-hand side, from Kravica to

 3     Sandici, and on the left-hand side we mounted the hill, as you can see,

 4     that's the Rogac hill.  So we held this hill during that night because

 5     the Serbian army was down there.  There's a field down there in the road.

 6     When they saw that we had mounted before them and started shooting

 7     against them, then they couldn't mount the hill because there was too

 8     much clear ground.  And in the morning I saw -- let me not mention any

 9     numbers, but I saw perhaps around 100 bodies from Buljim down there.

10     What I would like to explain to the Chamber now, there at Buljim, there

11     weren't so many casualties as in Burnice, at the very entrance to

12     Burnice, the village.

13        Q.   On the same night or --

14        A.   The following day.

15        Q.   Just help us now, please.  These 100 bodies, did you bury them or

16     take them away with you or were they left there for somebody else to bury

17     them?

18        A.   No one touched them.  You were just looking their back-packs

19     whether they had any ammunition.  If I told someone that I had found

20     100.000 Deutschemarks --

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Can the witness please repeat his last answer.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, could you repeat from what -- from

23     where you referred to 100.000 Deutschemarks?  And speak slowly, please.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   What did you do with 100.000 Deutschemarks?

Page 44775

 1        A.   I smoked them, I rolled them into cigarettes.

 2        Q.   The interpretation is wrong.  You didn't roll them, but you

 3     rolled tobacco into them?

 4        A.   That was my paper for cigarettes.

 5        Q.   And during that day was there any fighting?

 6        A.   Mr. President, we didn't fight at all until we reached the

 7     Kaldrmica Put and Konjevic Polje.

 8        Q.   Aha.  So on the following night --

 9        A.   There was an ambush at the entrance of Burnice.

10        Q.   A Serbian ambush?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   Can you please describe to the Chamber what happened on the

13     second night?

14        A.   When the people were killed, we passed over these bodies, that

15     was between two hills and a big wide building was erected there.  A woman

16     and a man from Konjevic Polje wanted to have a chicken farm there, and

17     that was where the ambush was made and a mass of dead were there and then

18     we passed them.

19        Q.   Who shot on the second night?  Who was shooting at whom?

20        A.   The second night was Kaldrmica, down there.  Once we reached the

21     village Burnice, the village Burnice.  And when we reached a graveyard

22     Burnice, then there was the whole brigade, Zulfo Tursun to the left from

23     Novo Kasaba.  We from Glogova would go straight.  And the remaining

24     companies, and so on, there were three possible roads:  Nova Kasaba, ones

25     would go there, Zulfo Tursun would go with them.  Us from Glogova would

Page 44776

 1     go towards the road Kaldrmica-Konjevic Polje, which crosses Milici.  And

 2     a third group would go from Taran's cafe restaurant and the bridge, there

 3     was a bridge there.  The third group was supposed to attack there because

 4     it was reported to us that Serbs were there under the fly-over and that

 5     they were waiting to attack.

 6        Q.   How many casualties were there during the second night and did

 7     you bring them with you or did you bury them?

 8        A.   There were casualties along the bridge, in Kaldrmica, but the

 9     casualties were people who were shooting from Taran's cafe restaurant in

10     Konjevic Polje and from this hill whose name I don't know above

11     Nova Kasaba, the first hill, and they were shooting from there.  But

12     there weren't too many bodies as for that when we broke through the front

13     line, because I'm moving on from there to the Tumac [phoen] hill.  And

14     the Tumac hill is on the right-hand side when going in the direction of

15     Cerska.

16        Q.   Thank you.  And which bodies did you have to go over?  Whose

17     bodies were there and when were they killed on your entry into Kaldrmica

18     that you just mentioned?

19        A.   These were Muslim bodies on the bridge -- excuse me, just hold

20     your horses.  The bodies in Burnice, the ambush, these were the Muslim

21     bodies, we had to step over them, we could not pass through.

22        Q.   How many bodies were there?

23        A.   I cannot tell you the exact number, but there was quite a number

24     of them, quite a few of them.  What I can testify is that when I left

25     Srebrenica and Buljim, one ambush, two ambushes, breaking through the

Page 44777

 1     front line, reaching Crni Vrh, reaching close to Nezuk, going back, I can

 2     just confirm that I could see between 15- and 1700 dead.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  And where did you spend the third night?

 4        A.   When I went to Udrc and we reached it, then I was going back

 5     along the road because we couldn't pass.  Then I returned again, and that

 6     would be the 13th in the morning.  I hid in a grave, concrete grave, I

 7     hid there and in the morning as I was getting out, a man, a Serb, a

 8     soldier threw a rifle down because he was so afraid.  There was another

 9     one who aimed his rifle at me and he said:  How come that you're coming

10     out of there?  And that was when nobody beat me, nobody did nothing to me

11     there.  We left there.  I went to Kravica.  24 of them in front of me, I

12     was the 25th, and then --

13        Q.   We will get to that.  Please tell us whether there were any

14     losses from friendly fire, as it's usually called, among the Muslims, I

15     mean, once you split into these three columns?

16        A.   Well, there were murders, Mr. Karadzic, and everyone else in the

17     courtroom, there were people who got killed because once the shooting

18     started, groups would be formed, three, four, or five of us who knew each

19     other would form a group.  We were one group.  Then somebody else would

20     come along.  He didn't have, for example, his military ID.  Then you

21     would kill him on the spot if he didn't have a personal ID.  Such things

22     did happen.

23        Q.   Why were there such killings?

24        A.   We didn't trust anyone anymore, the world, the people, not

25     yourself, you wouldn't trust yourself even in such a moment.

Page 44778

 1        Q.   Were there killings out of confusion during the night when

 2     darkness fell?

 3        A.   Yes, every night there would be -- somebody would shout:  The

 4     Chetniks are coming, shoot, shoot --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  All those are leading questions

 6     which would reduce the probative value of this witness's evidence.

 7             Please continue.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Did you have an occasion to see somebody surrendering, to whom?

11     Where were they?

12        A.   In Sandici some people were taken prisoners.  Those who were

13     killed in Konjevic Polje.  Nurif Rizvanovic's brother Huso wore a white

14     shirt and he invited people to surrender.  He guaranteed people that

15     nothing would happen to them and people did surrender.  I don't know

16     where these people are who killed him.  I haven't a clue.

17        Q.   Could you see them after their surrender?

18        A.   I passed between the villages of Kamenica.  Here in the

19     International Criminal Tribunal nobody knew that there was

20     Kamenica Pobudjka, the only story was about Zvornik.  From Kamenica to

21     Kravica there is about 10 to 20 minutes on foot and from the hilltop you

22     can see Sandici where people had surrendered.

23        Q.   Did you see those people in Sandici?  How many were there in

24     Sandici according to you?

25        A.   According to my estimate, in Sandici, I really can't say how many

Page 44779

 1     there were, perhaps about 250 to 300 people all together.

 2        Q.   When you were taken by Sandici, you had already been arrested?

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   Where were you taken --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  One clarification.  Minutes ago you said, for

 6     example, anybody of the group did not have, for example, his military ID,

 7     then you would kill him on the spot if he didn't have his ID.  Do you

 8     remember having said that?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I stand by it.  Judge, if

10     I don't know you and if I tell you stop and you stop and I ask you where

11     you're from and then you say a Muslim name.

12             JUDGE KWON:  But did you not say today before that you all burnt

13     your papers?

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the independent mountain

15     battalion, we burned the papers belonging to the people.  We didn't want

16     the Serbs to find our names, we didn't know them -- to know them how many

17     fighters they -- there were, because we knew that all of our names had

18     already been sent to Tuzla.  We burnt everything in our command, all the

19     orders at that command.  We did not want to leave anything to the Serbs,

20     to Ratko Mladic.  We didn't want them to know what we had done.  If you

21     were a member of a unit, you had to have a military booklet.  It was a

22     blue booklet with your name, your photo, and the white lily on the cover.

23     And if I did not see that, I kill -- I would kill you immediately.  Even

24     if you were my mother, I wanted to save my hide and that's why I'm here.

25     I was more than a slave and now I know more than I was supposed to know.

Page 44780

 1             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the accused please be

 2     asked not to overlap and allow for the interpretation to finish.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  You should put a pause yourself.  Please continue.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I need to be reminded of that

 5     more than the witness.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   So you didn't burn your IDs?

 8        A.   We did not burn our military booklets.  We burned the orders, all

 9     the other documents.  For example, there were papers on which it said

10     Husic Huso went somewhere and killed two, and those strategic places,

11     there were maps drawn for the people to show them where they had to go.

12     We burnt all that, all about the operations that took place between 1992

13     and 1993.  As for the military booklets, each of the soldiers had to have

14     one on him.

15        Q.   Thank you.  What was the assumption, if somebody didn't have

16     those documents why was he supposed to be killed?

17             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness and the accused be asked not

18     to overlap.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you repeat your answer.  Start

20     over from the beginning -- from the outset.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to repeat about the

22     burning of the documents?

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   No, no, no.  Why were the -- did they risk being killed if they

25     did not have their military booklets?  What was the assumption?

Page 44781

 1        A.   Well, I had several such cases where I had to act to save my

 2     life.  For example, if they didn't know the code, you would kill them.

 3     Some of them we stripped to see whether they had been circumcised.  You

 4     killed them, although later on it would turn out that the person was a

 5     Muslim.

 6        Q.   You say that they were not circumcised?

 7        A.   Yes.  The times were such that you couldn't say I'm Huso Husic

 8     from Osmace.  I needed to see a document to prove you were who you say

 9     you were.  And then when they say:  Well, I left them in Srebrenica, I

10     couldn't care less.

11        Q.   On line 13 you said the names of some Muslim players, instead of

12     that we see the word "code."  What is Bismillah, can you tell that to the

13     Chamber and the interpreter?

14        A.   Bismillah Surah is something from the Qur'an.  It's a prayer that

15     every Muslim child learns when are they at the age of three or four.

16     It's a very common basic Muslim prayer.

17        Q.   Thank you.  And when the 25 of you were brought to Kravica, can

18     you tell us, very shortly but very accurately, what happened there?

19        A.   When we entered Kravica, on the left-hand side I saw some people

20     sitting there.  There were two openings, and we proceeded to the entrance

21     on the right-hand side.  At that moment, a person from Kravica who knew

22     me and my mother, he knew me and he asked me what I was doing there, and

23     then I said:  Well, you see I'm here.

24        Q.   Don't say his name, we are in open session --

25             MS. PACK:  Objection --

Page 44782

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And he took me to the office.

 2             JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ...

 3             MS. PACK:  I'm just noting, I'm afraid I didn't stand up fast

 4     enough because of the interpreting, but there was a leading question,

 5     "and when the 25 of you were brought to Kravica," there's been nothing

 6     about 25 people during the evidence.  It's just repeating these leading

 7     questions throughout this latter part of the testimony.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, where did these 25 people come from?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if it wasn't recorded it's a

10     problem.  The witness is speaking fast and so am I, but the witness did

11     say:  There were 24 of us plus me and it took us about 10 to 15 minutes

12     to arrive in Kravica.  This is what the witness did say.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  That's on page 86, lines 20 and 21.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

15             Please put a pause.  It's almost impossible to catch up such

16     speed on the part of the interpreters.

17             Please continue.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Continue.  You said that a man, a friend of yours, recognised

21     you.  Can you now tell us the sequence of events in Kravica?

22        A.   He told me to go to a room.  I opened the door.  I entered.  The

23     room was small and there was another room adjacent to it, and I heard

24     short bursts of fire and I jumped through the window and I just split.  I

25     disappeared.

Page 44783

 1        Q.   How many people were there, according to your estimate, who were

 2     killed and how many of them were in the left room, those who had arrived

 3     before you?

 4        A.   According to my estimate, a minimum in the left room were about

 5     70 to 80 people.  Those rooms could not hold 100 or 200 people.  Those

 6     were two small rooms and there was a partition between the two of them.

 7             Can I have some water, please?

 8        Q.   I apologise.

 9             Could you see something?  On top of hearing things.

10        A.   No, I couldn't see anything.  I couldn't see whether those men

11     from my group were killed.  I couldn't see anything.  I only know that I

12     saw a video-clip.  It was shown on TV, mostly by Sarajevo television, and

13     namely I was wrote about --

14             MS. PACK:  Your Honour --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that I could see people lying

16     on the --

17             MS. PACK:  If it's the case that the witness is about to testify

18     to what he watched subsequently on TV, I really struggle to see how this

19     could assist the Court.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree.

21             Move on or reformulate your question.  Probably if you want to

22     ask something specific.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I knew --

Page 44784

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- those men and I saw them on

 3     TV --

 4             JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ...

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they were in my group and I

 6     saw them on TV on that video-clip --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Wait for the question.

 8             Just both do not overlap.  Just wait.  Yes, please continue.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   After you heard those shots, did you subsequently learn what had

11     happened to your colleagues who had been brought together with you and

12     how did you learn that?

13        A.   I learned what I just tried to tell you.  When I escaped, I came

14     across a man whose name was Enver, and he claimed that he had been in

15     Kravica and that he escaped from there.  And because of him, six lads had

16     been sentenced to 40 years in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  When I researched that

17     case and I provided a statement to the prosecutor's office, I can give

18     you the name of the person to whom I provided that statement.  When I

19     provided that statement, he did not call me to testify.  He threatened me

20     and told me that I was not supposed to talk about that.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  You said that you saw --

24             JUDGE KWON:  No, the question was:  "After you heard the shots,

25     did you subsequently learn what had happened to your colleagues who had

Page 44785

 1     been brought together with you and how did you learn that?"

 2             Did we hear the answer?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just given you the answer.  I

 4     learned from a man or from people who were there that everybody in

 5     Kravica had been killed, and I learned that in 2008 or 2009, for God's

 6     sake.  What I saw previously in 1997, 1998, I saw that on BH television

 7     and airs that programme and claims that 1500 to 2000 men were killed.

 8     When I met that colleague of mine - and I can tell you about the case

 9     that was heard before a court in Bosnia-Herzegovina - the Skelanci case

10     and those --

11             THE INTERPRETER:  Impossible to interpret.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat what you just said.  Speak very

13     slowly.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, listen and understand

15     what I'm saying.  You have a group in the prosecutor's office on the

16     prosecution team --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Probably you don't understand.  Unfortunately, I do

18     not understand your language.  I hear from the interpreters

19     interpretation.  If you speak so fast, it's impossible for them to

20     interpret.  So please speak slowly.  They didn't hear your last answer.

21     Could you repeat it.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From Skelanci, the Skelanci group

23     and then continue from there.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When there was a trial involving

25     six guys from Skelani, alleging that they had participated in the

Page 44786

 1     killings of 1500 to 2000 Muslims in Kravica, I was in a different kind of

 2     life.  I was in a political life, and those politicians from the

 3     Federation, not from Republika Srpska, appointed me to that position.

 4     And then I saw in the newspapers that there was a trial and I recognised

 5     those men on TV.  And on the following morning, I got up and I wrote a

 6     letter to the prosecutor's office in Sarajevo, asking them for somebody

 7     from the prosecutor's office to visit me because I wanted to give them my

 8     statement about those lads.

 9             And when I did provide a statement, when I started telling them

10     my story about the cases that I'm telling you about today, one of the

11     prosecutors took me to the bathroom in the place where I was and I

12     told -- and he told me not to mention Naser Oric or others from that

13     unit.  I was supposed to testify on behalf of those lads, and the other

14     guy testified, that one that I found when I jumped through the window in

15     Kravica.  Enver is his name.  He said that he was there, that he saw

16     everything, that he had been wounded in the lower leg, and that's the guy

17     who I found on the hilltop.  He was the key witness and still they got

18     37, 38, or even 40 years each.

19             I was promised from there that people would come from the court

20     to take me to court, nobody came, nobody wanted to come and pick me up.

21     And when the lads came to me, when I started to socialise with them, when

22     I gave them the papers, when they saw what I had done for them, and I was

23     supposed to be there on their behalf, people almost killed each other,

24     because I -- the others had threatened me for what I wanted to do for

25     them.

Page 44787

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Please pause there.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber has difficulty in understanding or in

 4     following this part, so could you -- Mr. Karadzic, could you break down

 5     so that the witness can state what he wants to tell us.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies.  I'll

 7     give it a try.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   So, after you fled from the co-operative, from the office, can

10     you describe very briefly where you were and what happened to you?

11        A.   I ran away, I ran through the woods, I lived in the woods,

12     managing ten minutes -- ten months passed between that and the arrest.

13     Everybody understands here in the international forum that I was under

14     their protection.  What do they call it?  ICTY.  But still my own people

15     sent me into prison --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   So you were in hiding for ten months?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please put a pause, please.  Put your question

20     again.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Now you said you were in hiding in the woods for ten months.

23     Were you alone?  Were you in a group?  And was it the only group in those

24     ten months?

25        A.   That group that I met, that was in Zvornicka Kamenica.  With that

Page 44788

 1     group I came back to Srebrenica, to Lehovici.  That group remained there,

 2     and I joined some other people and went to Zepa.  In that other group,

 3     there were another six people.

 4        Q.   When were you captured again?

 5        A.   30th May 1996.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  What did they know about you and how?

 7        A.   When I was brought - can I say where I was brought? - to Zvornik,

 8     to the police, the police interrogated me and they accused me that I

 9     killed four Serbs and one Muslim out of that group of seven who were

10     arrested before the 10th of May.  So they put it all on me, they blamed

11     it all on me, and it was up to me to defend myself from these charges.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just to be clear, arrested by who, Mr. Witness?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police of Republika Srpska.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Were you prosecuted and tried and what happened later?

18        A.   I was tried based on their allegations.  There was no evidence.

19     And from 1996 to date, there are no bodies, no rifle.  These are the

20     people killed, the four Serbs, and they blamed it on me.  There was an

21     Interpol arrest warrant for one of them, for that guy who was sent to

22     Switzerland.  He got 20 years in prison for killing those four people in

23     Zepa.  That's a political game being played now in the Federation.  We

24     were being portrayed as heros, people who couldn't do that, but they

25     could and they did, 100 per cent.  There is somebody in the Federation of

Page 44789

 1     BH who's protecting them.

 2        Q.   You said the Mothers of Srebrenica and the SDA were protecting

 3     them?

 4        A.   The SDA, Sulejman Tihic, Bakira, the woman from Mothers of

 5     Srebrenica, they keep protecting them and they keep trying to prove that

 6     they are innocent.  But they can't know better than me and that's why I'm

 7     in everybody's way, in the way of the Muslims and Republika Srpska

 8     because Muslims on one side know their own truth, the Serbs know another,

 9     and they're all playing a game of -- a political game of tug of war.

10        Q.   How did it come about that you got out of the Serb prison?

11        A.   There was an exchange.  It could have been the 22nd or the

12     24th of May, 1997.  An exchange was agreed for one captain who had been

13     captured in Sarajevo and I together with three others were supposed to be

14     exchanged for him.  He was to continue serving his sentence in

15     Republika Srpska, whereas I was supposed to go on serving my ten-year

16     sentence in Tuzla.

17        Q.   While you were in prison in Republika Srpska or in the

18     Federation, were you prepared to state your own truth?

19        A.   Back in 1996 I told the prison warden and I wrote letters

20     everywhere that they enable me to come to the international tribunal.  At

21     that time it was a well-known fact there was an international tribunal in

22     The Hague and I wrote letters among other people to the chief of police.

23        Q.   Did you try to get in touch later with someone from the OTP?

24        A.   Only after 2008 or 2009.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9587 is the next document I would

Page 44790

 1     like to call up in e-court without broadcasting it.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, I would like you to stop for today at

 3     2.40.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Can you tell us, if you remember, to whom did you write this

 7     letter and when?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately we still don't have a

 9     translation.  Perhaps the OTP has a translation because it's their

10     document, isn't it?

11             MS. PACK:  I think we do.  We were only informed that this would

12     be used, obviously, a few hours ago.  But if I can just consult with my

13     colleague, I can see whether it can be uploaded.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you tell us what are you telling the prosecutor's office of

16     Bosnia-Herzegovina here, that you have some information?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Were you equally prepared to talk about the civilian losses on

21     both sides or only on one side?

22        A.   Mr. Karadzic and everyone in the courtroom, that's the letter

23     that I sent when the prosecutor came to Foca and threatened me.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25             Yes.

Page 44791

 1             MS. PACK:  Your Honour, if it will assist, this could be shown

 2     with the Prosecution's 65 ter number which is 25496, and there is a

 3     translation.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Okay.  Thank you.  Shall we upload it.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll read until we get the

 6     translation.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   It says:

 9             "Dear gentlemen, I also know the exact dates and perpetrators of

10     the heinous crimes committed against innocent civilian population on the

11     territory of Srebrenica, Kravica, Sase, Loznicka Rijeka, Skelani

12     municipalities."

13             Who lived in Sase, Loznicka Rijeka, and Skelani?

14        A.   In Kravica there was a majority Serb population.  In Skelani, the

15     Serbs were -- at least in the surrounding villages there was a majority

16     of Serbs until perhaps Jezero.

17        Q.   Loznicka Rijeka?

18        A.   As far as I know, Serbs.

19        Q.   Was your unit involved in the attack on the Fakovici village?

20        A.   We were in Fakovici to lend a hand -- I mean we from the

21     independent mountain battalion.

22        Q.   What was the reaction of the BH prosecutor's office to your

23     letter where you express your readiness to shed light on these crimes?

24        A.   I'm now addressing the Judges and you, Mr. Karadzic, and the

25     Prosecutors.  When I sent this letter, people from the Federation came to

Page 44792

 1     see me, two prosecutors, and one woman, they recorded everything I said.

 2     When I was supposed to go Sarajevo to be called as a witness at the

 3     trial, I received very threatening messages from one man who sent this

 4     message through an intermediary, and I have that witness whom I can call,

 5     that man approached me and told me how things stood.

 6        Q.   Who was the prosecutor who visited you in Foca and threatened

 7     you?

 8        A.   The name?  Bajro Kulovac.

 9        Q.   How did Bajro Kulovac's career progress?

10        A.   Bajro Kulovac was a prosecutor.  I don't know what happened with

11     him.  I know that I had another encounter with him in 2010 because

12     this -- this occurred in 2008.  And in 2010 I ended up at his mercy

13     again.  Naser Oric was there, the president of the SDA, lawyer

14     Damir Alagic, they were the top people in the Federation.  This

15     Bajro Kulovac tried to break my limbs.  He wanted me to sign a paper

16     stating that I did not suffer anything in Srebrenica.

17        Q.   When you say you were at his mercy, what does it mean?

18        A.   Damir Alagic, a lawyer from Sarajevo, brought me to SIPA, to the

19     office of Bajro Kulovac, and they put to me papers, saying that I wasn't

20     in Srebrenica, I know nothing about Srebrenica.  Then I asked

21     Bajro Kulovac:  Why did you send those innocent men to prison when they

22     were not guilty?  He said:  I have the bullets, I have the bodies, I have

23     the bones.  I said:  Well, anybody could have found them in the woods.

24     And then he slapped me so hard I fell off the chair.  Then in the

25     presence of Damir Alagic I was taken to the office of the boss in SIPA

Page 44793

 1     for an interview, when they asked me - and maybe you know about that case

 2     too - when he asked me if I had given that statement under coercion or of

 3     my own will, when I was about to say, "Of my own will," Damir Alagic hit

 4     me.  Because Damir Alagic, the lawyer, didn't want to talk to that Serb

 5     who was the chief of SIPA at that time.  He wanted to talk to his own

 6     man.

 7        Q.   In line 20, they asked you to say you did not suffer anything in

 8     Srebrenica, but in fact they wanted you to sign that you had never been

 9     in Srebrenica?

10        A.   Yes, they wanted me to sign that statement.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I remember your warning about the

12     time, Your Excellencies.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why did they ask that?  In 2010,

14     Amor Masovic told me in the presence of my father that it would have been

15     better for me to have kept my mouth shut and be still recorded as missing

16     because in that cases they wouldn't be looking for me.

17             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit this letter under seal.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  The document receives Exhibit Number D4182, under

19     seal, Your Honours.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, we'll continue tomorrow at 9.00.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just can I make one correction in

22     the transcript.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Did you say that Amor Masovic told you that you had -- it would

Page 44794

 1     have been better for you to stay dead because you were already recorded

 2     as dead?

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the last sentence be redacted.

 7     Fortunately enough, the father's name has not been recorded so no

 8     redaction is necessary, but the audio can be redacted, i.e., it doesn't

 9     have to be broadcast right.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

11             Mr. Witness, I'd like to advise you not to discuss with anybody

12     else about your testimony.  Do you understand that?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean I'm not supposed to talk

14     to anybody I know?  Who am I not supposed to talk to?

15             JUDGE KWON:  It's okay to talk to anybody, but you are not

16     supposed to discuss about your testimony.  Now do you understand that?

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   Not before your testimony is over.

19        A.   Okay.  Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  In the remaining time, the Chamber will issue an

21     oral ruling on the accused's requested -- accused's request which was

22     filed on the 6th of December, 2013, that counsel for Ljubisa Beara,

23     Mr. John Ostojic, be present in the courtroom during Beara's testimony.

24     This request is granted.

25             Further, the Chamber has also considered the suggestion raised by

Page 44795

 1     the accused and endorsed orally by the Prosecution on the 6th of December

 2     in relation to Beara and Tolimir, that in light of the uncertainties

 3     surrounding their testimony, their cross-examination be postponed until

 4     after the winter recess.  The Chamber considers that the Prosecution

 5     should be ready to cross-examine Beara and Tolimir, who were indicted

 6     respectively in 2002 and 2005; however, given the exceptional timing and

 7     circumstances, the Chamber is minded to exercise a degree of flexibility.

 8     This request is therefore granted and the Chamber wishes to note that the

 9     binding effects of the subpoenas issued respectively against Beara and

10     Tolimir will continue to have effect until the completion of their

11     testimony.

12             Finally, the Chamber will issue an oral ruling on the accused's

13     motion for access to audio recordings from Kvocka case filed on the

14     9th of December, 2013, wherein the accused requests access to the B/C/S

15     audio recordings of the testimony of Pero Rendic in the Kvocka case for

16     the purpose of preparing the Rule 92 ter attestation procedure.  The

17     Prosecution notified the Chamber via e-mail on the 9th of December, 2013,

18     that it did not wish to respond to the motion.  The motion is granted and

19     the Chamber hereby orders the Registry to grant the accused access to the

20     B/C/S audio recordings of the testimony of Pero Rendic in the Kvocka case

21     on the 5th of February, 2001.

22             The hearing is adjourned.

23                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.45 p.m.,

24                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of

25                           December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.