1 Monday, 9 December 2013
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everybody.
7 Mr. Bojinovic, I'd like to remind you that the solemn declaration
8 you took on Friday last week is still valid.
9 Shall we continue, Mr. Karadzic?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.
11 MR. ROBINSON: I was just going to note, Mr. President. I noted
12 that Judge Lattanzi isn't here. Perhaps we should put that on the
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you for that reminder. We are sitting
15 pursuant to Rule 15 bis for today, with Judge Lattanzi being away due to
16 urgent personal matters.
17 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Good morning,
19 Excellencies. Good morning to everybody.
20 WITNESS: MILOS BOJINOVIC [Resumed]
21 [Witness answered through interpreter]
22 Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]
23 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Professor Bojinovic.
24 A. Good morning.
25 Q. This machine is as slow as any other day, which is why I would
1 like to ask you to speak slowly and pause between my question and your
3 Did you have an occasion to listen to your testimony, to your
4 testimony in the Brdjanin case?
5 A. Yes, I listened to it all.
6 Q. Would you answer the same way if those same questions were put to
7 you today?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Thank you.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to tender the transcript
11 pursuant to Rule 92 ter into evidence.
12 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
13 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat the number.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9730A. The redacted is 1D9370
15 [as interpreted].
16 JUDGE KWON: I take it there are some associated exhibits?
17 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, there are three associated
18 exhibits and it's indicated that two of them were not on our 65 ter list,
19 but in fact this notification was filed before the latest 65 ter list.
20 So all three of them are on the list currently.
21 JUDGE BAIRD: Shouldn't the redacted version be 9730?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies. It has been
23 erroneously recorded.
24 JUDGE KWON: Among them, the Chamber is of the view that two of
25 them, i.e., 1D9731 and 1D9732, do not form an inseparable and
1 indispensable part of the transcript in that they are not sufficiently
2 commented upon or contextualised by the witness. Accordingly, we will
3 only admit one associated exhibit into evidence unless there is an
4 objection from the Prosecution.
5 Ms. Sutherland, do you have objection to the admission of the
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Good morning, Your Honours. No, I do not.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, shall we assign the numbers for the
9 statement -- the transcript as well as the associated exhibits.
10 THE REGISTRAR: 65 ter number 1D09730A receives Exhibit Number
11 D4176. 65 ter number 1D09730 receives Exhibit Number D4177. And the
12 associated Exhibit 1D0 -- 1D03514 receives Exhibit Number D4178,
13 Your Honours.
14 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit D4176 will be put under seal.
15 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: Excuse me, Your Honour. I would just note in
17 relation to the one associated exhibit D4178, it's an extremely bad copy
18 and a better version of that is 65 ter number 054 -- 05473, which the
19 Defence may wish to substitute when they are doing the upload.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Upon the confirmation from the Defence,
21 it will be replaced.
22 MR. ROBINSON: Thank you, Mr. President.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 MR. ROBINSON: It may be Judge Baird has already noticed this,
25 but the one that is under seal should be Exhibit D4177.
1 JUDGE BAIRD: Yes.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes, in any event, the confidential part should be
3 put under seal.
4 Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I'm now going to read a
6 short summary of the transcript, i.e., Professor Milos Bojinovic's
7 testimony in English.
8 [In English] Milos Bojinovic was the chief of the agency for
9 population movement and the exchange of material wealth for the
10 Autonomous Region of Krajina, for the agency. He began working in
11 Banja Luka at the agency on July the 1st, 1992.
12 The agency served a humanitarian role for people living in the
13 ARK. It was established to assist any person in need or any person whose
14 life was at risk. Agency activities centred on the two main tasks:
15 Helping people exchange their addresses and facilitating travel.
16 Ethnicity was irrelevant to the agency's function.
17 Several services were offered by the agency, but it was only able
18 to provide transportation and travel-related services due to the war-time
19 circumstances. Bus convoys organised by the agency travelled from
20 Banja Luka to Gradiska and further to Croatia, and from Banja Luka to
21 Vlasic, several times a month. Buses left Banja Luka two or three times
22 per month in convoys usually comprised of two or three buses.
23 Although citizens sought bus transportation to Zagreb and
24 Travnik, the agency could not provide complete transportation to the city
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. If the court deputy approach the
3 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
4 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
5 THE ACCUSED: Individuals leaving Banja Luka were required to
6 present a document proving they had registered out of their place of
7 residence before they could secure the agency's bus transportation.
8 Travellers could obtain the document through the Ministry of
9 Internal Affairs, the police, in the person's respective municipality.
10 Individuals were placed on a list of people scheduled for departure after
11 presenting the document to the agency.
12 After the agency reviewed and finalised its list, the listed
13 individuals would buy tickets, and the agency would hire buses. It did
14 not own its own fleet. Ticket prices were non-negotiable and were fixed
15 by local regulations. All ticket prices were regular bus lines in the
16 region were fixed at an equal value. The agency operative, Bandic and
17 Segrt, would evaluate safety concerns and determine whether the bus
18 convoy would need a police escort. The operatives would submit a report
19 to the agency describing military activity on the route and whether the
20 trip was safe. If agency operatives discovered military activity along
21 the convoy's anticipated route, the convoys were not permitted to leave.
22 Conversely, buses were permitted to leave when no military activity
23 existed along the route. The agency requested police protection whenever
24 its operatives determined a safety risk was nevertheless present,
25 particularly around the line separating the two armies. However, agency
1 operatives escorted the convoys because the travellers would be
2 travelling, regardless of whether a police escort was needed or provided.
3 He never witnessed agency operatives or the police maltreat passengers,
4 nor did he witness personal property or money being extorted, demanded,
5 or taken from boarding passengers.
6 Mr. Bojinovic travelled in the bus convoys on two separate
7 occasions, one trip towards Vlasic and another towards Gradiska. He
8 accompanied the convoy to Gradiska for two reasons. First, he wanted to
9 understand the experience and how passengers felt; second, he felt
10 compelled to escort his Muslim friends to the border.
11 Mr. Bojinovic's convoy trip toward Gradiska was unescorted by
12 police and seemed similar to convoys he previously observed departing.
13 He noticed passengers of various ethnicities on the bus. He saw Muslims,
14 Croats, Slovenians, and Serbs. Uniformed men did not stop the bus and
15 Mr. Bojinovic never observed any mistreatment of passengers.
16 The second convoy Mr. Bojinovic accompanied went to Vlasic,
17 towards Travnik. The convoy consisted of a single bus which contained
18 several passengers from mixed marriages between Serbs, Croats, and
19 Muslims. Despite the condition on mountain roads, Mr. Bojinovic did not
20 experience anything unusual travelling to Vlasic. The police and the
21 agency operatives escorted the bus, yet Mr. Bojinovic did not observe any
22 passenger mistreatment or illegal activity.
23 The agency closed in December 1992 and the refugee commission
24 continued providing the services previously provided by the agency.
25 Mr. Bojinovic never heard negative comments being made towards the
1 non-Serbian population during his time as chief. Similarly, he never
2 heard Serbian politicians propose limitations against non-Serbians, nor
3 did he ever hear of Serbs seeking to cleanse the area.
4 Mr. Bojinovic never heard people allege the agency was extorting
5 money from non-Serbs. If someone had, in fact, made such allegations,
6 those allegations would be untrue. People were leaving because the war
7 made the area unsafe, not because of ethnic cleansing.
8 And that would be a short summary. At that moment, I would not
9 ask Professor Bojinovic anything.
10 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bojinovic, as you have noted, your evidence in
11 chief has been admitted in writing, that is, through your written -- your
12 previous testimony in the previous case. Now you'll be cross-examined by
13 the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor. Do you understand
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 Yes, Ms. Sutherland
18 Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:
19 Q. Sir, your evidence is that you held no official position in the
20 SDS; correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And certainly not a member of the Main Board?
23 A. No.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 1D26027, please.
25 Q. This is a document that's been uploaded in this case by the
1 Defence which lists members of the Main Board which include many people
2 this Trial Chamber is familiar with, including Mr. Karadzic. We can see,
3 for example, Bozidar Vucurevic, Mladen Nedic, Mico Stanisic, and we also
4 see your name at number 3. So this document shows that you were more
5 than just a candidate for the Main Board?
6 A. Yes.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: I tender that exhibit.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
9 MR. ROBINSON: I would ask --
10 JUDGE KWON: But would you ask whether he confirms whether he was
11 a member.
12 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yeah, I was just about to do that. Sorry,
13 Your Honour.
14 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, as I said, this shows that you were more than just
15 a candidate, that you were, in fact, a member of the SDS Main Board,
16 doesn't it -- or you were, weren't you?
17 A. No, no, that's not correct. I was just a candidate for a member
18 of the Main Board. When you say "more than a candidate," I don't
19 understand that. I was a candidate but I was never elected a member of
20 the Main Board. And you can see it quite clearly. Under 3,
21 Milos Bojinovic, yes, I am here, my name is here, I was a candidate. And
22 that's that.
23 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, it was your words, saying that you were only a
24 candidate when you testified in the Brdjanin case.
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. So this document lists you as a member of the Main Board, not as
2 a candidate for the Main Board?
3 A. I can't explain that based on this. If I had been a member of
4 the Main Board, I would have attended meetings throughout the year;
5 however, I did not attend any meetings. This is a list of potential
6 candidates for the positions as members of the Main Board. So this is
7 not an official document. If this were an official document, it would
8 bear a party stamp and you can't see it here, so I believe that
9 everything is clear.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance? Perhaps if
11 it would help if Madam Sutherland would explain the period from which
12 this document originates.
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: I don't think that that's necessary.
14 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue.
15 We'll receive it.
16 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit Number P6558, Your Honours.
17 MS. SUTHERLAND:
18 Q. Now, sir, it's also your evidence that you were not politically
19 active --
20 A. Please, please, may I be allowed to address the Court? May I
21 react, please? It is very important to look at the date on this
22 document, the date could have been --
23 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bojinovic, you stated this is a -- just list of
24 candidates. Would you like to add anything to that?
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. This list of candidates
1 could have been drafted on the eve of the establishment of the party and,
2 in official terms, the party was established on the 12th of July, 1990.
3 Up to that --
4 JUDGE KWON: If necessary, Mr. Karadzic will ask more questions.
5 Shall we continue, Ms. Sutherland?
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Okay.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. And, sir, it's also your evidence that you were not politically
10 active in Glamoc municipality; that's correct, isn't it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. No, you weren't politically active?
13 A. No.
14 Q. You said Milan Babic was the first president of the SDS in
16 A. No. Milan Babic, I'm not familiar with that name. I'm familiar
17 with the family name Babic. After I left Glamoc, I don't know who the
18 president of the municipal SDS board was. Before I left, nobody was
19 president. People just gathered --
20 Q. Mr. Bojinovic --
21 A. -- and no president had been elected.
22 Q. You said at transcript page 22824 when you were asked who was the
23 first president of the SDS in Glamoc, you said:
24 "Up until the establishment of the SDS, there was no president.
25 After the SDS was established in 1990, I think it was Milorad Babic.
1 Babic. That's his family name. But I'm not sure about his first name."
2 Now, that's what you did say when you testified previously,
3 didn't you?
4 A. Yes, it is possible. Let me tell you it is possible --
5 Q. But in fact --
6 A. -- but a lot of time has passed since then, but I'm not familiar
7 with that at all. I don't understand.
8 Q. But in fact, Mr. Bojinovic, the first SDS president that was
9 appointed was yourself, wasn't it?
10 A. I couldn't be the president of something that hadn't been
11 established yet.
12 Q. Upon its establishment --
13 A. People did hold me in high esteem --
14 Q. Upon its establishment, you became the first SDS president, did
15 you not?
16 A. No, no, I was never --
17 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could I have 65 ter number 25749, please.
18 JUDGE KWON: Please do not overlap. Could you repeat the number.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND: 25749, and my apologies, Your Honour.
20 Q. This is a document of questioning of Radoslav Simidzija on the
21 11th and 12th of June, 1995. Do you know a person by that name who lived
22 in Glamoc since 1976?
23 A. No.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Could we go to page 11 of the English
25 translation and page 6 of the B/C/S, please.
1 Q. Now, we see there that Mr. Simidzija states that Milos Bojinovic
2 was the first president of Glamoc SDS. And he says in the current
3 chairman, that is 1995, there is a certain Babic from S. Selo. Do you
4 still maintain that you weren't the first SDS president?
5 A. Yes.
6 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I tender this document.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Objection, Your Honour, the evidence is --
8 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, I'm sorry, it's in the record. It's in the
10 Q. You continued your involvement with the SDS when you moved to
11 Banja Luka in July 1992 --
12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I'm not sure to which question the
13 witness answered "yes."
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Oh, oh, I will clarify that, Your Honour.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
16 [Prosecution counsel confer]
17 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Bojinovic, do you agree that you were the SDS
18 president in Glamoc in the beginning?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to explain that. The
20 position of the president of the SDS did not exist before the
21 establishment of the SDS. There was a person who chaired a gathering,
22 where the SDS is discussed, somebody who chairs a gathering. But a
23 president has to be elected and receive a letter of appointment with a
24 stamp of the party. I never received that and I never was that.
25 JUDGE KWON: Does it mean that you chaired a gathering?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not every gathering, in the early
2 days. Later on, meetings would be chaired by whoever is elected, whoever
3 is chosen. One meeting lasts for about an hour and then the chairperson
4 is chosen. I was not always the chairperson, only when people would
5 choose me.
6 JUDGE KWON: So most specifically, you agree that you chaired
7 some of the meetings, SDS meetings?
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct.
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
10 Shall we continue.
11 MS. SUTHERLAND:
12 Q. [Microphone not activated]
13 JUDGE KWON: Microphone.
14 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
15 MS. SUTHERLAND:
16 Q. You continued your involvement with the SDS when you moved to
17 Banja Luka in July 1992, yes?
18 A. I don't understand, what do you mean by "you continued your
19 involvement"? I was a member of the SDS but I didn't hold any high
20 positions in the SDS. So clarify what you mean by "continued your
21 involvement." What exactly do I understand by that?
22 Q. You said when you testified in the Brdjanin case that you were a
23 member of the SDS throughout?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You knew Nenad Stevandic, did you not, in Banja Luka?
1 A. No, no, no. I know Stevandic only now. I didn't know him then.
2 Only now when Stevandic became a deputy from the SDS party. At that
3 time, I had no idea of his existence.
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may we go into private session,
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 [Private session]
11 Pages 44704-44709 redacted. Private session.
6 [Open session]
7 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
8 MS. SUTHERLAND:
9 Q. Sir, the agency to which you were appointed was an organ of the
10 Autonomous Region of Krajina government, yes?
11 A. Yes, yes. Please, now -- because the Assembly of the ARK
12 established the agency. It must have had a government. Somebody had to
13 have jurisdiction over the agency, the Assembly or the government, but it
14 was all within the ARK.
15 Q. By the latter part of 1992, the work of the agency was basically
16 or almost exclusively organising travel to send people outside
17 Republika Srpska, wasn't it?
18 A. Not only that. Travel is the last part. Before travel, we've
19 already had occasion to hear that there had been procedures for people to
20 register with the agency, to leave their addresses so that we can put
21 them in contact with people of non-Serb ethnicity so they can come to an
22 arrangement. I must have talked about that before in the Brdjanin case.
23 The agency put people in touch, for instance, Muslims and Croats and --
24 or Serbs or Slovenes would come to the agency, leave their addresses, and
25 say: I have in Banja Luka such and such an apartment or a house, I would
1 like to swap it for something in Zagreb, Sarajevo, Zenica. And then
2 Serbs would contact us from these areas from which they had fled, leave
3 their addresses, and we would put that up on a board and people would
4 look for appropriate swaps. That was one of the types of assistance the
5 agency provided --
6 Q. Mr. Bojinovic --
7 A. -- second, people were able to -- yes, sorry?
8 Q. You testified in the Brdjanin case that -- you were taken to a
9 document which listed five services that the agency was supposed to
10 offer, and you said that in relation to at least four of them, that you
11 weren't doing that particular -- that you weren't providing that
12 particular service. And in fact, the only thing you were doing was
13 providing the bus service and you were making it possible for people to
14 obtain addresses of other interested persons so they could contact each
15 other. And that's what you said at transcript page 22886. That's right,
16 isn't it?
17 A. Yes, yes.
18 Q. Now, you say that there were only one or two convoys leaving per
19 month. One witness in the Brdjanin case, that's BT94, said at transcript
20 page 18005 that two or three buses a day were leaving and he witnesses
21 convoying leaving the agency "day-in/day-out." He said that he saw huge
22 crowds next to the workers' centre where that was happening. He said
23 there would always be a throng of people, a multitude of people waiting
24 there, queuing to get out.
25 This, what I've just said to you in relation to his evidence,
1 represents the reality of the situation, doesn't it?
2 A. Is my comment required?
3 Q. Yes. In fact, not a comment but an answer to my question. This
4 was the reality of the situation, wasn't it?
5 A. Yes, yes, yes.
6 Q. Thank you.
7 A. No, no, it's not that. The person who said there was a multitude
8 of people doesn't understand anything. Do you know what it means, a
9 multitude of people? A multitude of people of lined bodies which do not
10 move, so it cannot be a multitude of people. About the long lines, where
11 would they fit? There was no room for such queues. People came normally
12 to our offices --
13 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, you said you were receiving a --
14 A. What did I say?
15 Q. You were receiving 500 requests a day, were you not?
16 A. No, no, no, impossible. Where would 500 applications come from
17 when it was impossible to organise transport every week? It all depended
18 on the security situation. There was a war going on, people. We cannot
19 drive people through war zones. It could have been once, twice, or three
20 times a month, three times a month max, not four, which means not every
21 week. And there was only one bus, perhaps two or three depending on the
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. Only once were there five or six buses, as far as I remember.
25 I want to use this opportunity to answer another question --
1 Q. No, Mr. Bojinovic --
2 A. -- I was asked how many people in total left --
3 Q. I will ask you the questions and you will answer them to the best
4 of your ability.
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honours, in relation to 500 requests a day,
6 I would refers Your Honours and the accused to P03857.
7 Q. You said that you -- that people paid the -- this is in your
8 testimony, that people paid the bus fare to leave which was regulated by
9 town laws and you said it was the same fee as other regular bus lines
10 applied. But there were no other bus lines, were there, because Putnik
11 and Atlas Travel had been shut down by the ARK Crisis Staff, hadn't they?
12 A. I don't know whether it was shut down. It's possible that in the
13 area of AR Krajina there was transport available. But the price of the
14 ticket was regulated by certain regulations --
15 Q. Who gave you this fee that you had to charge? Who gave you the
16 amount of the fee that you had to charge?
17 A. No one gave it. Regulations existed. The Official Gazette and
18 our secretariat simply followed the regulations. It wasn't an aunt or a
19 grandpa from the municipality who came and told me: Mr. Bojinovic, this
20 is how you're going to do it. No, it's not done like that. There are
21 regulations, the Official Gazette, the secretariat, which follows all
22 that and everything is done in accordance with the law.
23 Q. Now you said that it wasn't an exorbitant amount; is that right?
24 A. Is that a question?
25 Q. Yes.
1 A. I don't understand what you mean by exorbitant price or a low
2 price or a middle price. I don't know. There is a standard price, the
3 standard price that you cannot go outside of much, either below or above.
4 For example, the price of the ticket from Banja Luka to Gradiska was
5 known from beforehand. The price of the ticket from Banja Luka via
6 Gradiska, for example, up to the border with Croatia was a bit more
7 expensive and so on and so forth. So when I say the fees were standard,
8 standard for a certain route and the routes were longer or shorter and so
10 Q. People were interviewed by the Special Rapporteur Mazowiecki, who
11 said they were forced to pay a fee of 300 Deutschemarks to the agency per
12 person to leave for a Muslim-controlled territory?
13 A. Have you asked me a question? Please ask a question so I can
14 answer with a yes or no or make a comment. If it's just a comment of
15 yours, I'm left waiting and I'm not sure what to do.
16 Q. This -- you're aware that people were paying up to
17 300 Deutschemarks to leave on your -- through your agency, weren't you?
18 A. That's not correct, no, no. That's malevolence of the person who
19 told Mazowiecki or whoever that.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: If we could have 65 ter number 11511, please.
21 And if we could go to page 3 in the middle of the page, paragraph 8.
22 Q. Now, this is what the Special Rapporteur said, that both the
23 local authorities and the immigration agency in Banja Luka organised
24 their displacement, this is 14.000 people that -- that were in the city
25 of Travnik, and they said:
1 "... and that some of them had paid a fee of up to
2 300 Deutschemarks per person to leave for a Muslim-controlled territory.
3 They were driven towards the front lines, but were obliged to leave the
4 bus several kilometres before reaching it and to cross the combat zone as
5 best they could. En route they were repeatedly beaten, robbed, subjected
6 to various forms of harassment and in some cases raped or shot."
7 So are you saying these people were lying to the
8 Special Rapporteur?
9 A. You have asked me a big question. You read out from a document.
10 Which people, which rapporteur, and specifically could you summarise that
11 a bit, please, so that we may simplify matters? Please don't introduce
12 such big issues here. I can see that there are some numbers here,
13 19.000 people, 14.000 displaced people, 300 Deutschemarks. Please ask me
14 one question at a time.
15 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, those figures -- the document states that the city
16 of Travnik had a population of 19.000, has now had to accommodate an
17 additional 14.000 displaced people. And that many of the people that the
18 Special Rapporteur interviewed told him that both the local authorities
19 and an immigration agency in Banja Luka organised their displacement and
20 that some of them had paid a fee of up to 3.000 [sic] Deutschemarks per
21 person to leave for a Muslim-controlled territory. Now, you know that
22 people were paying these large sums of money to leave your agency --
23 through your agency, aren't you?
24 A. All right, I shall answer in view of the figures. As for the
25 people who lived in Travnik, I don't know. How many people Travnik
1 planned to accommodate there as refugees, again I'm not aware of that.
2 No one ever told me this. As for people paying 300 Deutschemarks to the
3 agency, that's not true. Who they told that and when, I wouldn't know.
4 With what goal they said that, I don't know, but they didn't say it in
6 It's easy to say anything once you leave the area of Banja Luka
7 and go over there, it's easy to say anything, but that's not true, it's
8 not correct, and it's not fair, so I deny all of this. It's not true
9 that anyone ever paid 300 Deutschemarks to the agency because it was not
10 necessary. I mean, what was 300 Deutschemarks at the time? Where would
11 poor people get so much money at the time? Please, come on.
12 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, there's no question, is there, that the people who
13 were leaving on the buses were mostly Muslims. That's what you said when
14 you testified in the Brdjanin case?
15 A. Mostly Muslims, but there were others too. There were Croats,
16 there were Serbs, mixed marriages. Who was leaving and for what reasons,
17 I wouldn't know. What was up to me was to make it possible for people to
18 leave in a normal way.
19 Q. You said at transcript page 22889 when you were asked who the
20 majority of people were leaving -- who were the majority of people
21 leaving Banja Luka, you said:
22 "The majority were Muslims."
23 And you went on at page 22899 to say:
24 "These people were not from Banja Luka only, not exactly the way
25 it was, that Muslims were leaving Banja Luka en masse. We were contacted
1 by people from Banja Luka and from places where conflicts were nearby."
2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 Q. And when you were asked who was leaving you said at transcript
4 page 22806:
5 "There were people from mixed marriages too, here and there the
6 occasional mixed marriage between Serbs, Croats, and Muslims, whoever
7 felt that it was safer for them to go to Travnik."
8 A. No, no, not to Travnik, excuse me. Only once one bus went to
9 Travnik because leaving for Travnik was unsafe. Why?
10 Q. Mr. Bojinovic --
11 A. -- there was a war going on between the Croats and the Muslims --
12 yes, please.
13 Q. That was your testimony at page 22806. We can bring it up if you
14 really want to see that.
15 A. Can you please repeat it.
16 Q. You were asked who was leaving --
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. -- that is, which ethnicities were leaving on the buses, and you
19 said and your answer is:
20 "My apologies. There were people from mixed marriages, too, here
21 and there, the occasional mixed marriage between Serbs, Croats, and
22 Muslims. Whoever felt that it was safer for them to go to Travnik."
23 A. I don't think it was exactly to Travnik, but outside of the
24 territory of the Autonomous Region of Krajina, that is to say Banja Luka,
25 but not to Travnik. I have said it again now. Whoever believed that he
1 was threatened, the agency offered him an opportunity, and for Travnik
2 there was a single bus. We wouldn't allow people to go to the combat
3 zone. It was dangerous for those who were driving and for the people who
4 were leaving there. We were not so inhumane that we would send people
5 away to get killed. If need be, I will clarify that the family of a
6 colleague of mine which insisted to go to Travnik, I didn't allow them to
8 Q. Mr. Bojinovic --
9 A. -- and the family waited for almost a month --
10 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I have limited time. I need to move on.
11 JUDGE KWON: Since you referred to your time, I think you passed
12 your time that you suggested. How long --
13 MS. SUTHERLAND: Well, Your Honour, I'm sorry, I --
14 JUDGE KWON: -- how much more do you need?
15 MS. SUTHERLAND: I need another -- I'm sorry, Your Honour, I
16 wasn't aware that I'd reached my time. I need another 15 minutes. I
17 think I could safely wrap it up.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Thank you, Your Honour.
21 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, despite the numbers involved and despite your
22 official role in the Autonomous Region of Krajina, you professed to be
23 completely mystified about why people were leaving. That's right, isn't
25 A. No, that's not what I claim. I'm not claiming that I have no
1 idea why they were leaving. I know perfectly well why they were leaving
2 and I have explained it. They were leaving because of uncertainty. Both
3 the Serbs and the Croats and the Muslims and the Slovenes, they did
4 leave. Why were they leaving? Everywhere where the war broke out, there
5 were unofficial elements which were out of control and in order for
6 people to be secured, to be safe, somebody had to take care of them. In
7 my Glamoc, Serbs used to kill one another among themselves --
8 Q. Mr. Bojinovic --
9 A. -- you mentioned in the beginning the three --
10 Q. -- we're discussing now people leaving from Banja Luka. You were
11 asked what happened in Banja Luka during the time you were chief of the
12 agency to make the Muslims feel unsafe and you said:
13 "I don't know. It was peaceful in Banja Luka."
14 And that's transcript pages 22898, line 23, through to 22990,
15 line 3.
16 Some of the evidence that we've heard in this case is
17 Mr. Andjelko Grahovac, who said that -- who knew that hundreds of small
18 businesses belonging to non-Serbs were blown up at night in Banja Luka.
19 And he was aware that thousands of Muslims and Croats were evicted from
20 their apartments, sometimes by creating fear in them and sometimes by
21 people breaking into their apartments and throwing them out of their
22 apartments in Banja Luka. Internationals reported explosions and
23 machine-gun fire 24 hours a day.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: And for the Trial Chamber and the accused,
25 that's P02939.
1 Q. You didn't hear about any of these things that were going on in
2 Banja Luka?
3 A. What Mr. Andjelko Grahovac stated is his statement --
4 Q. No, Mr. Bojinovic --
5 A. -- I did not see these things -- yes?
6 Q. -- I'm asking you about the incidents that I referred to. Did
7 you or did you not hear and see these things happening?
8 A. No, I did not see these things happening. And one could hear
9 that people were disturbed, that they were leaving enterprises. You
10 could hear that in conversation with simple people, but as for me, seeing
11 something and being convinced, no. That 100 firms were blown up, no.
12 That would mean that all of Banja Luka was razed to the ground and
13 Banja Luka is still standing. There were no combat operations at all. I
14 had been in Banja Luka since 1990. I didn't see that. I had colleagues
15 who worked together with me in high school and to this day there are
16 Croats and Muslims who work there. If you would like me to do so, I will
17 tell you their names. I don't know about this. I'm not sure --
18 Q. Mr. Bojinovic --
19 A. -- what this is. People went because they were feeling unsafe,
20 but they didn't -- yes, please go ahead.
21 Q. -- we have evidence in this case that non-Serbs had lost their
22 jobs, they were being harassed and then marginalised and they feared
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: And for the Trial Chamber and the accused that's
1 Q. This Trial Chamber has received evidence that ARK leaders, and
2 particularly the president of the ARK Crisis Staff, publicly demeaned and
3 dehumanised Muslims and called for their expulsion. Do you claim that
4 you were totally oblivious to this?
5 A. I was never present in a situation when anyone was abused,
6 mistreated, thrown out of a company, or anything. I claim this with my
7 full responsibility, that in high school that I went to after the agency,
8 people remained in their posts and worked on, both Croats and Muslims.
9 If you'd like, I will give you their names. Some were principals for two
10 terms of office, please. So I did not see what you are putting to me
11 now. No, I cannot lie, I haven't seen that.
12 Q. Some of the evidence in this case, Mr. Kupresanin heard from
13 Serbs that Brdjanin said that only a thousand Muslims could stay in
14 Banja Luka. Mr. Grahovac again talked about a percentage of Muslims and
15 Croats that Brdjanin said would be allowed to stay in the
16 Bosanska Krajina, and the rest would leave. Mr. Erceg spoke about
17 repeated statements of the president of the Crisis Staff of the
18 Autonomous Region of Krajina, public statements, some in very ugly forms,
19 that Muslims had to go. He said Brdjanin did make those statements.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please -- I would like to
21 have the statements of these witnesses literally and specifically quoted
22 to the witness and read out to him because if you just make a sort of
23 mishmash like this, then it leaves a different impression.
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I wasn't paraphrasing the evidence.
25 I can read out what Mr. Grahovac and Mr. Erceg say in the transcript.
1 JUDGE KWON: I'm not sure which would be the best way, but the
2 witness will be better off if you deal with one by one or just put your
4 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, it was -- it was actually the --
5 those witnesses that I just read about were talking about the one issue,
6 and that is Brdjanin saying that people had to leave. Only a small
7 percentage would be allowed to stay.
8 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, so it's your evidence that you weren't aware of
9 Mr. Brdjanin saying that only a small number -- a small percentage would
10 be allowed to say. That's your position, isn't it, that you were never
11 aware of that?
12 A. I didn't hear from him when he said that, but people did report
13 that he was saying something to that effect. But I did not hear it from
14 his specifically because I was not present in a situation, if something
15 like this was said.
16 Q. And so --
17 A. And whatever he said, that's for him to explain.
18 Q. And so when you were asked -- when you were asked why -- what
19 would it be to make Muslims feel unsafe and you said "I don't know," it
20 never occurred to you that this might be a factor in people leaving their
21 homes, their positions, and the lives they had built?
22 A. It's possible, but I know that many Croats and Muslims stayed.
23 It all depended on the mental structure of the people, their emotions and
24 so on. I think that this is a question that I'm not competent enough to
1 Q. Let me take you to one example.
2 MS. SUTHERLAND: Can I have 65 ter number 25743, please.
3 Q. Sir, this is an article which was published in "The Guardian" on
4 the 29th of September, 1992. It was an article written by Ian Traynor.
5 And if we can go to paragraph 5, we can see that Mr. Vukic -- Dr. Vukic
6 says -- he's an obstetrician and he recently stated no Muslim or Croat
7 woman would be allowed to give birth in his hospital. And he also said
8 that -- he quotes Radoslav Brdjanin and says that he just announced "that
9 Banja Luka has room for only 1.000 Muslims. The other 29.000 would have
10 to go 'one way or another.'"
11 "One way or another" being in quotes.
12 You're living in Banja Luka at this time, in September 1992,
13 weren't aware of these public threats that were being made by Dr. Vukic
14 and Brdjanin which were reported in the British press?
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] One clarification. We heard in
16 translation that what Brdjanin said, that Vukic actually told that to the
17 journalist and it's not so. [In English] Who quoted Brdjanin?
18 JUDGE KWON: You may ask -- you may clarify with the witness.
19 MS. SUTHERLAND:
20 Q. Mr. Bojinovic --
21 THE ACCUSED: But it is a part of question, not a part of the
23 MS. SUTHERLAND:
24 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, this article states that Radoslav Vukic said
25 recently - this is in September 1992 - no Muslim or Croat woman would be
1 allowed to give birth in his hospital. That's the first thing. The
2 second thing this article states is that Radoslav Brdjanin, who was head
3 of the regional war committee who has just announced "that Banja Luka has
4 room for only 1.000 Muslims. The other 29.000 would have to go 'one way
5 or another.'"
6 Now, as I asked you, you were living in Banja Luka at the time,
7 in September 1992, you didn't hear these public statements being made by
8 Dr. Vukic and Brdjanin? You did hear them?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Did you say --
11 A. No, I didn't hear them, but if something like that was said by
12 Dr. Vukic, then that was not nice. He had to have taken the
13 Hippocratic oath. If he did say that, I would not agree. It shouldn't
14 be done. However, you say here Vukic told Brdjanin and Brdjanin told
15 Vukic and so on and so forth. I don't know what they told one another.
16 Q. I didn't say that --
17 A. -- as I man, I have this position that -- yes, please.
18 Q. I didn't say that, Mr. Bojinovic. I specifically said --
19 A. Well, I'm receiving interpretation, so ...
20 Q. Okay. If we can go to paragraph 8 it says there:
21 "Ten days ago, 150 [sic] people paid 100 Deutschemarks a head to
22 the agency for the final stage of their transfers, after having
23 surrendered their property in Banja Luka and boarded buses to the
24 Croatian border."
25 Now, again this is a figure being paid to your agency of
1 100 Deutschemarks a head. Do you still deny that people were having to
2 pay these amounts of between 100 and 300 Deutschemarks, some of the
3 people that went through your agency?
4 A. People were not forced to pay between 100 and 300 Deutschemarks
5 but the price of the ticket as it was set because there would be
6 consequences for us, the agency, if we were working like that. The
7 authorities functioned in Banja Luka. We couldn't work independently.
8 It wasn't like this. 100 or 300 Deutschemarks, it's a lot of money.
9 People did not have that and the poor people carried with them what they
10 had. I personally gave my own money to the Glamoc Muslims and they cried
11 when they realised what it was and they offered me -- please, they
12 offered me: No, you take it, you need more, and it will be easier for me
13 to fend for myself here because this is my people. So that was my
15 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I wish to take you to two other portions in this
16 document and that's on page 2, the second paragraph. We see here it
17 says: "Foreign relief" -- it's reported in this article that:
18 "Foreign relief workers in the town are staggered by the levels
19 of hatred, violence, and victimisation they are now encountering every
21 And that is the Muslims encountering every day this -- these
22 levels of hatred, violence, and victimisation. You didn't see this,
23 living in Banja Luka?
24 A. I don't know who could have seen such hatred in the street. How
25 can you know from someone's face if he were a Serb, a Croat, a Muslim, a
1 Jew, a Pole, and how can you see on his face hatred against other people?
2 For me, this question makes no sense. I cannot answer it.
3 Q. And lastly, the second-to-last paragraph on page 2, the
4 portion -- now it starts:
5 "Radovan Karadzic, the Bosnian Serb leader who came here last
6 Friday to try to sweet talk Cyrus Vance and Lord Owen, told The Guardian
7 the same day that 'Banja Luka is a peaceful town.' The night before,
8 Serbian special units sealed off the district of Hiseta and ordered all
9 the residents out of their houses, barking their orders through
10 megaphones. Local Muslims thought they were headed for Manjaca or
11 Trnopolje, but it was a false alarm - just another exercise in
13 Now, again, something else that you weren't aware of that was
14 happening in the town that you were living in, of Muslims being
15 intimidated and taken out of their houses?
16 A. Question?
17 Q. I said you're not aware -- that this is something else that
18 you're also not aware of, people being intimidated by their houses being
19 searched and being thrown out of their houses?
20 A. I never saw this. I was not looking on. When did that happen,
21 how did it happen? No, I had my job, I'm a family man, I had to take
22 care about that, and I tried to help the people who addressed me. And
23 whether there were some paramilitary formations and some incidents, I
24 didn't see that. Banja Luka is a big town, let me tell you. I cannot be
25 simultaneously in all places where possible excesses were taking place.
1 So when you say "were you aware," it's a little bit -- well, was I aware.
2 Q. Mr. Bojinovic, I'll put it to you, it's disingenuous of you to
3 say that you don't know why thousands of non-Serbs are seeking your
4 agency to leave Banja Luka when all of this is going on in Banja Luka at
5 the time that you're living there.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.
7 JUDGE KWON: What objection --
8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have told you this --
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The witness did not say why -- that
10 he didn't know why. He said that he knew quite well why they were
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.
13 JUDGE KWON: No --
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It has been explained that people
15 were leaving because they were feeling unsafe, not only the Muslims,
16 though. The majority were the Muslims, that is correct. But it was not
17 just the Muslims. There were the Croats also, fewer, and the Serbs, also
18 fewer. There were the Slovenes as well. There were people from mixed
19 marriages. And now it's insisted here that in Banja Luka there was a
20 general widespread persecution of Muslims. I did not notice that. I'm
21 sorry, excuse me, but I did not notice that that was so.
22 In high school where I worked, people continued working, the
23 Croats and the Muslims. A Croat woman used to be the principal for eight
24 years. A secretary was -- there were two and now there's another one who
25 is a Muslim, the secretary. The colleagues who were teaching there. So
1 what are we talking about here? This was the high school, a public
2 institution, where other intellectuals worked side by side with me
3 without any problems. I have a list with me, the list of persons who can
4 be called here to testify and to confirm whether this is correct or not.
5 There were people who stayed on and worked on in high school. There are
6 my friends, Muslims, whom I helped. So if I need to present all this to
7 you, if these people need to be consulted, you can find a way to do that.
8 But to create such a picture like this, that there was a general
9 persecution, almost a massacre, that's not correct.
10 MS. SUTHERLAND: [Microphone not activated]
11 I seek to tender that document.
12 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
13 MR. ROBINSON: Well, Mr. President, most of it has been read out,
14 but if you do admit it, I would ask you to consider for the weight of the
15 document how there is absolute complete absence of attribution of any
16 information to named people in that article. It is really quite a
17 remarkable piece of journalism actually.
18 JUDGE KWON: My question, I was wondering why this document is to
19 be admitted through this witness. Contradiction, Ms. Sutherland?
20 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, yes.
21 JUDGE KWON: Did he -- I didn't go through his testimony, but did
22 he contradict in his testimony what is -- with respect to what is
23 described in this article?
24 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I -- I'd asked him whether he was
25 aware of these things occurring. He said it wasn't -- he was living in
1 Banja Luka at the time these things were occurring. I think in order for
2 you to -- sorry, Mr. Tieger wants to say something.
3 JUDGE KWON: No, I don't think -- I will consult my colleagues.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, may I add something?
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
7 MS. SUTHERLAND: Mr. Robinson, when he said it went to the weight
8 of the document, is basically agreeing that it's impeachment.
9 JUDGE KWON: Now, for the purpose of impeachment, I think the --
10 given that the all most relevant parts were read out to the transcript,
11 the Chamber is of the view that it's not necessary to admit this. We'll
12 not admit it.
13 And you're done with your --
14 MS. SUTHERLAND: Yes, Your Honour, thank you.
15 JUDGE KWON: -- cross-examination.
16 MS. SUTHERLAND: And I appreciate Your Honours' indulgence.
17 JUDGE KWON: How much do you need, Mr. Karadzic, for your
19 THE ACCUSED: Ten minutes, I suppose.
20 JUDGE KWON: We'll ask the audio unit whether we have sufficient
21 tape for ten minutes. If yes, we'll continue.
22 We have only 11 minutes, but are you confident that -- otherwise
23 we'll rise for ten minutes and then we can continue, and then after which
24 we'll have a 20-minute break for the preparation of the next witness.
25 Yes --
1 MR. ROBINSON: [Overlapping speakers] --
2 JUDGE KWON: -- we'll take a brief adjournment. We'll resume at
3 ten to 11.00.
4 --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.
5 --- On resuming at 10.57 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
9 Q. [Interpretation] Professor Bojinovic, could I ask you to give the
10 name of some prominent Muslims and Croats who stayed in Banja Luka
11 throughout the war?
12 A. I'm going to give you the names of my colleagues who were all
13 professors at the Banja Luka grammar school, and that grammar school has
14 a tradition spanning over a hundred years. Azijada Bera, who was the
15 grammar school secretary. The current secretary is Majda Pucar who is
16 also Muslim. Professor Begic, who had joined the grammar school to teach
17 physics. Jasna Maric, the teacher of art history. Amira Zmiric, who is
18 the teacher of German. She worked at the school and now is a member of
19 the faculty at the university and so on and so forth. There are a few
20 more people who I used to see around town, but let me tell you I have
21 forgotten their names.
22 Q. Thank you. Do you believe that Vukic and Brdjanin proffered
23 those words as their official position? How would Radic have reacted?
24 Would he have accepted that as a political stance?
25 A. No, Radic is a gentleman and he would not have accepted such a
1 policy, but it is possible [Realtime transcript read in error "policy"]
2 that Brdjanin and Vukic said something to that effect on some occasion.
3 I'm not denying that, it is possible, but I did not hear them say that.
4 Q. Thank you.
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Probably line 11 should say "it is
6 possible" instead of "it's policy."
7 Yes, please continue.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. It is possible that they said that. Did the local authorities
11 and Radic implement things of the kind that are ascribed to Brdjanin and
13 A. No, no, Banja Luka was a peaceful city during Radic's term of
14 office and chapeau to him for that.
15 Q. Thank you. And now I would like to call for a paper to be placed
16 on the ELMO. You saw that report in which it is stated that Travnik had
17 19.000 inhabitants and that it had to receive an additional
18 14.000 refugees. Could you please read from the document, how many
19 inhabitants did Travnik have in 1991 according to that year's census?
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be zoomed in, please.
21 [In English] Please, could you enlarge it, could you augment it. Thank
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. Professor, could you please tell us what was the total number of
25 inhabitants in Travnik and how many of them were Croats, how many were
1 Serbs, how many were Yugoslavs, and how many were others?
2 A. I can't find Travnik.
3 Q. It's the first line.
4 A. A total 70.000, Croats 24.000, Muslims 31.000, Serbs 7.000,
5 Yugoslavs 3.600, others 1.000, and then those who did not declare their
7 Q. Others, 1.093?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. So the information that we heard about 19.000 is not correct?
10 A. I suppose it's not.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
12 document to be marked for identification pending translation. Actually,
13 the only thing that needs to be done is to transliterate it into the
14 Latinic script. The rest is clear.
15 JUDGE KWON: What is this from, Mr. Karadzic?
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is from an official
17 publication, the Serbian version albeit, of the last census which was
18 carried out in 1991. You can double-check the information in the
19 Croatian version. The same list was compiled by the Republic of Croatia,
20 which was not its call but still it did it.
21 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Sutherland.
22 MS. SUTHERLAND: Your Honour, I have no objection.
23 JUDGE KWON: We'll mark it for identification.
24 THE REGISTRAR: It receives MFI D4179, Your Honours.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Professor Bojinovic, the indictment against me alleges that we
3 expelled people and forced them to leave, and we can see that people had
4 to collect some certificates, to pay for their ticket, to wait to be
5 placed on a list. Could the two things be reconciled? Did they actually
6 ask to be allowed to leave or did we chase them out?
7 A. No, we did not force anybody to leave. People who felt the need
8 to leave came to us for help. It was not us who approached them; it was
9 the other way around. They gained enough trust in the agency because
10 those who had left before them sent them a word that they were safe and
11 that they could travel. That's my comment.
12 Q. Did you have any feedback from the people whom you had helped to
14 A. Yes, I had a lot of feedback, especially from my fellow citizens
15 from Glamoc who were of Muslim ethnicity. They called me from Sweden,
16 from Paris. And when I go to Glamoc, where I have my apartment, I get
17 together with me -- with them, and we are very glad that the war is
18 behind us, that we are still living, and that we can get together and
20 Q. You were quoted back statements from some witnesses about the
21 distribution of weapons among the Serbs. Did the Serbs respond to
22 mobilisation calls or did they have their own paramilitary formations?
23 And I'm talking about Glamoc.
24 A. As far as Glamoc is concerned, I don't know anything about the
25 distribution of weapons that would go beyond official channels. The
1 soldiers in the Glamoc Brigade were mobilised when that was needed. They
2 received weapons. And as for paramilitary formations and some special
3 distributions of weapons, I don't know anything about those things.
4 Q. Thank you. And now my last question --
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well, the last question was very leading.
6 Please continue.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Professor, can you tell us in view of the fact that it was
9 alleged that you were a member of various boards and so on and so forth,
10 were you earmarked to become a member of the board and when were the
11 first elections for the real board?
12 A. The population of Glamoc expected me to become politically
13 active; however, they were aware of my character. I'm a poet more than a
14 career person, so I never accepted any of the positions that were offered
15 to me. And I must say that some very good and high positions were
17 Q. When were the real elections for the Main Board?
18 A. I believe that that was only after the SDS was set up in Sarajevo
19 on the 12th of June. That's when the Main Board was elected, and I was
20 disregarded for that.
21 Q. What did we call those groups of people that assisted in the
22 setting up of the party? You just mentioned the word.
23 A. Groups of people who helped --
24 Q. You just mentioned initiative boards?
25 A. Yes, initiative boards. This actually means the beginning, when
1 things start being created, when an initiative is launched. So the
2 initiative boards were those that alerted us to the imminent danger to
3 which we had to react instead of just sitting idle and watching chaos
5 Q. Were you a member of any of those initiative boards?
6 A. Yes, I was. Because I knew or I realised that in
7 Bosnia-Herzegovina things were beyond control and that the situation
8 was -- would breed problems. And I spoke to everybody, not only Serbs,
9 also to Croats and Muslims, in the grammar school. I urged them to be
10 proactive to avoid the repetition of the Second World War.
11 Q. Just briefly, could somebody consider you a president if you were
12 a member of the initiative board or steering committee?
13 A. You know how people are, they believe you are a president as soon
14 as you have a position although that was never official.
15 Q. Professor Bojinovic, thank you very much.
16 A. Thank you.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well. That concludes your evidence,
18 Mr. Bojinovic. On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for
19 your coming to The Hague to give it. Now you are free to go.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With your leave, I would like to
21 thank you for your invitation, for the confidence that you placed in me,
22 for your patience, and I would like to ask you to forgive me if I did not
23 abide by your rules. I'm a poet, I write literature books. Once again,
24 thank you. I wish you a lot of success in your work and a lot of health.
25 JUDGE KWON: We'll rise all together.
1 We'll resume at 11.33.
2 --- Recess taken at 11.12 a.m.
3 [The witness withdrew]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Robinson.
7 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, good morning. We're joined
8 during this session by Goran Petronijevic, who is the co-ordinator of our
9 Defence team in Belgrade. And I would -- we were planning on just having
10 he and I here, but we're also going to use some videos with this witness
11 and he and I aren't very good at that. So we would wonder if it would be
12 okay if we could have an additional person in the courtroom during this
13 period which would be our case manager, Mr. Stevanovic, to operate the
15 JUDGE KWON: Any observation, Ms. Pack?
16 MS. PACK: No, no observations, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
18 That's granted.
19 Would the witness make the solemn declaration, please.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will
21 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
22 WITNESS: KW12
23 [Witness answered through interpreter]
24 JUDGE KWON: Did you say something, Mr. Witness, after having
25 made the solemn declaration?
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said, I've been saying for
2 20 years what has been done to my life and what sort of lies are being
3 spread here, and still you never called me, and that the Mothers of
4 Srebrenica asked me to testify in Sarajevo. It's not my fault.
5 JUDGE KWON: We'll hear your evidence --
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's an error in the transcript.
7 The witness said that the Mothers of Srebrenica prevented him, together
8 with the authorities in Sarajevo, prevented him from testifying.
9 JUDGE KWON: Do you confirm having said so, Mr. Witness?
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, and I stand by that.
11 JUDGE KWON: I take it you understand you are testifying under
12 certain protective measures, that is, you will be called by pseudonym,
13 which is KW-12, not referring to your real name, and your image will not
14 be broadcast outside this courtroom. And whenever we discuss your
15 identity, we'll go into private session so that the others, i.e., the
16 other people outside this courtroom cannot follow who you are. Do you
17 understand that?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
19 JUDGE KWON: So whenever you want to talk about something that
20 may reveal your identity, please notify us in advance so that we can go
21 into private session. Do you also understand that?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] All right. Yes, it is clear.
23 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, sir.
24 Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 Examination by Mr. Karadzic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Witness.
3 A. Good morning, Mr. President.
4 Q. Could I just ask you to put a pause between questions and
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we call up 1D09534, not to be
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Can you tell us if your name is under this number?
10 A. Yes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender this under seal.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
13 THE REGISTRAR: It receives document number D4180, under seal,
14 Your Honours.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The interpreters wanted to suggest
17 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters just want to ask the witness
18 again not to start replying while Mr. Karadzic is still speaking.
19 JUDGE KWON: Do you understand that, Witness? Since Mr. Karadzic
20 and you are speaking the same language, so there needs to be some pause
21 between the question and the answers for the interpreters to conclude
22 their interpretation. Do you understand that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, all right.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
1 Q. Could you please tell us, were you a member of the BH army?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You started answering again too soon. Could you briefly describe
4 what happened during the war from the beginning of April to the
5 28th of May, 1992. In your area, were there any clashes in April, any
6 skirmishes, and between who?
7 A. Yes, there were some between paramilitary units, Arkan's men, on
8 one hand, and Naser Oric and his men, his army, as they were known at the
9 time; and there were a couple of villages that were attacked.
10 Q. So what was the outcome of these clashes? Were there any losses?
11 What transpired between them?
12 A. There was one ambush set in Potocari where these Arkan's men were
13 killed, everybody knows that, and then there was the mopping up, the
14 cleansing, of Cumavici, which is a village. And there was one ambush in
15 Zeleni Jadar under Osmace. Osmace is a road that leads to Osmace
17 Q. Thank you. What is the population of these two villages,
18 Cumavici and Gniona?
19 A. Those were majority Serb villages.
20 Q. And who set these two ambushes in Zeleni Jadar and Potocari?
21 A. In Potocari, Naser Oric and Hakija Meholjic, Mujo Mandzo
22 organised this ambush. How shall I explain it? I'm just trying to
23 explain briefly so you can understand. That ambush was set in Potocari
24 when they killed this Arkan's men. Hakija Meholjic, Mujo Mandzo and
25 Naser Oric were the leaders around whom their people gathered and they
1 organised this ambush in Potocari. Whereas the ambush in Zeleni Jadar,
2 near Sinan's shop, was organised by the men under commander Skraljivode
3 [phoen] and the first commander of that group was Akif. He set an ambush
4 there to intercept an army convoy that was going towards Srebrenica, they
5 killed some people, they slit their throats, and they hanged them. They
6 hanged the bodies.
7 Q. Was this Akif Ustic?
8 A. I don't know, Mr. President, what his real surname was. After so
9 many years -- in that area, I remember only where my own house was. At
10 that time I knew where his house was, but I didn't know his surname. But
11 it's somewhere around.
12 Q. Which troops did they ambush?
13 A. At the beginning of the war, it was the JNA. They wore those
14 olive-green-grey uniforms, as we called them SMB.
15 Q. Did anything happen right at the place where you enter Bratunac,
16 on the 2nd or 3rd May, involving the JNA?
17 A. When you enter Bratunac?
18 Q. In the place called Hranca. If you were not there, it doesn't
20 A. There was shooting around Hranca and Glogova. It's about 2 or
21 3 kilometres from Bratunac. But to tell you the truth, I didn't know the
22 details at that time, I wasn't there. We were in Hranca later in 1993.
23 Q. Did anything dramatic happen on the 8th of May; and if so, what
24 was it and how did it affect your area?
25 A. You mean 1992, on the 8th of May. It had a strong impact on us
1 residents of Bratunac. That was when Goran Zekic was killed. He was a
2 member of some sort of Presidency in Sarajevo. I have no idea. Maybe he
3 was SDA or some other party. I'm not sure.
4 Q. But what was his occupation normally?
5 A. I don't know, Mr. President, what he was. He was a teacher or a
6 politician, a professor. I don't know exactly what his position was.
7 All I know was that he was on the Presidency.
8 Q. What happened after that? What did the Serb police demand?
9 Could you describe the --
10 MS. PACK: Objection, objection.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
12 MS. PACK: That's a leading question, and I just want to be --
13 just to make that note of caution with this witness, that Dr. Karadzic
14 should avoid leading the witness. This is one of the first leading
15 questions, but I just mark it now.
16 JUDGE KWON: "What happened after that?" Is that a leading
18 MS. PACK: No, no, "what did the Serb police demand,"
19 presupposing that there was a demand.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 If you could tell us what happened after that.
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You're asking me?
23 JUDGE KWON: Then I will ask Mr. Karadzic to reformulate his
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. You said it had caused tensions, but can you describe the chain
3 of events after the 8th of May? What was happening and were you somehow
4 involved in these events?
5 A. The 10th May came after that, when we were rounded up in
6 Bratunac. I need to know where to start from. On the 8th of May, that
7 man was killed in Potocari. I came back from Potocari. In Bratunac, on
8 the 9th of May, it was quiet and peaceful. I'm talking about 1992. On
9 the 10th of May, they -- our own neighbours attacked us, rounded us up,
10 and took us to the football-pitch in Bratunac, all of us, Muslims, I
12 Q. Did you have a good insight into the events before the
13 8th of May? You mentioned those two villages and two ambushes.
14 A. In Gniona and Cumavici, I saw those decapitated bodies and the
15 heads on the ground. I went to that area to bring my ex-wife, and the
16 first time they did not let us go through to Ruovci [phoen], and that's
17 the first time we heard about Gniona. Naser Oric surrounded the Serb
18 people, asked them to turn over their weapons, guaranteeing their
19 security, and then he captured those people, killed some, including some
20 policemen, I knew one of them, and one other man from Lehovici, who
21 captured this policeman --
22 THE INTERPRETER: The witness is speaking too fast. He has to
23 repeat the answer.
24 MS. PACK: Your Honour --
25 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
1 Yes, Ms. Pack.
2 MS. PACK: I can see that we are going down the road of this
3 witness testifying about crimes allegedly committed by the ABiH against
4 Serbs. This is the second answer which purports to describe those sorts
5 of events, and I just want to at this point caution Dr. Karadzic and
6 raise this as a potential issue. In my submission, evidence of crimes
7 against Serbs is not relevant.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson.
9 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President, I think that would be contrary
10 to everything that has taken place in Krstic, Popovic, Blagojevic, and
11 Tolimir trials with respect to Srebrenica events. The background of the
12 conflicts in that area including attacks against Serb civilians has been
13 an integral part of the evidence in the case and to understanding what
14 happened in 1995 and as well as 1993. So it seems to me that this is
15 different than crimes against Serbs in other aspects of our case that we
16 have been -- that has been excluded.
17 MS. PACK: Might I just make one observation, which is that we
18 are talking here about 1992 --
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a ...
20 [Trial Chamber confers]
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, the Chamber agrees with Mr. Robinson's
22 observation, that background material is relevant to the case; however,
23 I'd like to emphasise that we are not -- the Chamber is going -- proposed
24 to hear the evidence on the basis of tu quoque -- not to hear the
25 evidence on the basis of tu quoque.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Absolutely, Your Excellencies, but
2 I'm only interested in the chain of events which led to other events.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Witness, it's not clearly recorded in the transcript where
5 the heads that had been cut off were posted and what happened with the
6 policeman on the spit.
7 A. The heads in Zeleni Jadar below Osmace near Sinan's shop, below
8 and above the road, they were on the staffs or staves, depending on how
9 you call them, they were placed on those staffs. And as for the
10 policemen it's Cumavici and Gniona, two places one next to the other, two
11 villages. Cumavici is on the hill, and Gniona is a bit - how should I
12 put it? - in the valley, down below. If you look from there you can see
13 into the neighbouring village. And in Cumavici, the policeman was burnt.
14 Amir personally used to know him before that and Amir asked him: Well,
15 the time comes for me to pay the fee. Whether the policeman was a
16 traffic policeman who stopped him previously and asked him to pay a
17 speed -- gave him a speeding ticket, but he was roasted on a -- on the
18 spit. And I was present there and I know what that was all about.
19 Q. It's not been recorded, "the spit," but we'll manage. Thank you.
20 So this was done after they had handed over their weapons;
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And now please help us with this: Was Glogova the subject of a
24 request for the delivery of weapons and what happened around the village
25 of Glogova before --
1 MS. PACK: Objection, that's a leading question.
2 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. All right.
4 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. You told us a little while ago that you were taken to the stadium
6 on the 10th. Don't tell us who, but was anyone of your family members
7 taken with you and did anyone stay in the village?
8 A. My mother --
9 Q. You don't have to say who. You can just say --
10 A. My mother and my 4-year-old son stayed there, and I and my father
11 were taken to the stadium.
12 Q. Thank you. At the stadium were you arrested; and if so, who
13 arrested you?
19 (redacted) and also what was done because it could affect --
20 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. And where were you taken there?
22 A. I was taken to the Vuk Karadzic primary school from the stadium.
23 Q. Thank you. Could you tell us how they treated you there and who
24 did that? Who was doing what? How many persons were arrested and taken
25 to the school and who was doing what? How were these people treated?
1 A. When I got to the school with my father, in the gym there was a
2 man called Bane and another one called the Macedonian. I also found
3 several people on the left-hand side as I entered the school who were
4 lying down on the floor. My father was also told to lie down, and it
5 lasted like that until the dark. Then another group of people were
6 brought, and the locals, the Serbs, whom we knew because we had been
7 living together with them, some were nice, others argued. And then later
8 they told this Bane and the Macedonian how and what, who should be beaten
9 up, who should be killed, and that happened on the 10th in the evening.
10 They began beating us, killing us. They killed this one man. I can't
11 tell you the numbers, but in my presence around 20 people or so were
12 killed. And I learned and I was told at the time that these people had
13 been Seselj's men, the White Eagles.
14 Q. Aha, the White Eagles. Okay. I see it's recorded now. And
15 please tell us, you said that people ordered this because they wanted to
16 settle their previous accounts with their acquaintances, they had some
17 unresolved matters; correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. And how did this arrest of yours end and the
20 suspicion that it was you who had shot, how did it all end?
21 A. It was on the 12th -- let me just explain. Please listen to me,
22 everyone. On the 10th of May we were brought to the football-pitch, on
23 the 10th in the afternoon. From the football-pitch I was brought to the
24 gym at around 3.00 or 4.00 p.m. In the evening while we were lying there
25 and everything, whatever you call it, this roll-call started, the locals
1 would come and say: Get me this guy. And then the local wouldn't beat
2 him or kill him, but it was this Bane or the Macedonian who did that.
3 Another thing, all the way until the 12th of May, 1992, the
4 two days and two nights that I spent there, this Bube came to my door and
5 told me, as we were talking, and he said: Neighbour Joska, here's a beer
6 and a coffee, you're still alive and I'll be seeing you. So around 450
7 of us who would be selected and numbered, around 450 people would be
8 taken for exchange. And we were taken to Pale then.
9 Q. Thank you. In line 5 it says: Neighbour Joska, was he neighbour
10 Bube or what was his name?
11 A. Bube Ristanovic.
12 Q. Thank you. And did you understand this as being pardoned or that
13 you were no longer a suspect?
14 A. I believe that I was pardoned because perhaps he had an unclear
15 conscience because he probably realised that I wasn't the one who had
17 Q. Thank you. Was your father joined to the people who were
18 transported to Pale?
19 A. Yes, he was.
20 Q. Thank you. And how were you treated in Pale? Did you have
21 access to water, food, and were you provided with any medical assistance?
22 A. As for Pale and our arrival there, I can't say anything bad. I
23 can just say good, that I want to thank all the policemen and the
24 hospital. If these people hadn't jumped immediately and taken me, I
25 would have died.
1 Q. You arrived in a bad shape; correct?
2 A. I arrived in a bad shape. I was all cut. No one ever put any
3 bandages on me in Bratunac until I arrived up there.
4 Q. Were you provided with medical care?
5 A. Yes, immediately. The doctors were there and military police and
6 ordinary police, and no one can say to me that anyone was beaten in Pale.
7 We had better security than in Bratunac.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, are you all right to continue?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I'm all right, Judge, but you
10 cannot understand me. These moments, all of this, to this day when it's
11 the exact date, I have health problems. And these key questions have an
12 impact on me. For me it's something - how should I tell you? - I don't
13 know, I don't know how to describe that. But all right, I'll stand it.
14 I've withstood worse.
15 JUDGE KWON: Whenever you find it necessary, please let us know,
16 we'll have a break at any time.
17 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Are you crying and are you disturbed because of these memories?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. How long did you stay in Pale --
23 JUDGE KWON: Probably we need to --
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm sorry.
25 JUDGE KWON: We'll have a break.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can't ...
2 JUDGE KWON: We'll break for 45 minutes. We'll resume at five to
4 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.09 p.m.
5 --- On resuming at 12.57 p.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. Witness, I'll try and not to dwell upon the most painful
10 subjects. When were you exchanged and where?
11 A. On the 13th of May, 1992, I was taken from Pale to Cekrcici,
12 that's a village where I was exchanged; and from there I was taken to
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 40115 and can we
16 go into private session. I believe that the document has already been
17 admitted under a P number. But before we proceed, could we go into
18 private session for a moment.
19 [Private session]
11 Pages 44750-44751 redacted. Private session.
18 [Open session]
19 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session, Your Honours.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. And now can you briefly tell us what happened to you before you
23 returned to Srebrenica, where were you and how did you finally return to
25 A. From Visoko, when I recovered, I was offered by TO commanders to
1 stay and join the TO units in Visoko. That was offered to us from
2 Bratunac. Some people stayed. A majority of us decided to go to Tuzla.
3 With the help of the Croatian army - and they were known as HOS forces -
4 who had arrived from Kakanj, we were exchanged, but it was not Sarajevo
5 who exchanged us, it was the Croats who exchanged us for some Serbs. And
6 then from Visoko and Kakanj we arrived in Tuzla, across Ozren mountain,
7 and we arrived in Banovici. From Banovici we were sent to various
8 schools. I was sent to the school in Djurdjevik together with my father
9 and many other people.
10 In the meantime, in Djurdjevik, where a refugee camp was set up,
11 the 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade that had arrived from Croatia under the
12 command of Nurif Rizvanovic arrived in the hotel in Zivinice. I learnt
13 from other natives of Bratunac and other people whom I knew, I learned
14 they were at the Hotel Zlaca. And that's how I went from the school in
15 Djurdjevik, together with a young lad whose family name was Civis, on
16 foot to Zlaca and I reported to the 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade.
17 Q. Thank you. And what about that brigade, where did it go? When
18 did you arrive home?
19 A. My first encounter with weapons and the first attack we carried
20 out was in Stevici village near Ozren. A relay was destroyed in 1992 and
21 it was held by the Serbs. That first night we went for something that
22 would be training to get used to the fire and war activities. We spent
23 an entire week there.
24 When we returned to the hotel in Zlaca, Nurif Rizvanovic assigned
25 some 20 of us to go to Tinja. In my statement I already stated - and I'm
1 going to repeat before you - that Tinja was in the hands of the JNA and
2 they didn't wear camouflage uniforms, but normal olive-drab uniforms of
3 the army of the former Tito's Yugoslavia. We had an operation there. We
4 repelled the troops. We destroyed two lorries on the road leading from
5 Tinja to Srebrenik or something like that. On that bridge there we
6 destroyed two military lorries. We also took some prisoners, Serbs. Two
7 Serbs were put on a bus. Those Serbs were beaten all the way to the
8 Zlaca hotel.
9 I omitted to say one thing. The 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade was
10 a unit to which people were selected who had survived a hell, like, for
11 example, I did in Bratunac. Those were special people who had seen
12 Seselj's men and White Eagles killing people and doing things like that.
13 The 16th Eastern Brigade was under the command of Taran, Alija Muskic and
14 Senad Hodzic who was the commander of the police in Bratunac. They told
15 us: If you want to enjoy a better treatment in the unit, like was
16 enjoyed by five platoons, each about 20 men strong, and they were known
17 as Kondors and you could join them only after you had completed training
18 or that you, by Taran and Osmanovic Adil, if you were selected by them
19 you would be trained and only then could you join one of those platoons.
20 And you had to complete a job in front of Medo Jakupovic, you had to slit
21 the throat of one Serb in order to join one of those units. That's the
22 job before you had to complete before your superiors.
23 Q. Thank you. Could you please tell us whether we are talking about
24 two paramilitary formations or are we talking about the White Eagles and
25 you thought they were Seselj's men?
1 A. Let me tell you, Mr. President, at that time in Bratunac, rumour
2 has it that those were White Eagles and that they were Seselj's men. I
3 don't know whether there was any other kind of information about anybody
4 else. I don't know exactly. Rumour had it that Arkan's men were there
5 as well, as well as the White Eagles. But, however, when things were
6 happening in the Bratunac gym, when people were being killed and beaten,
7 all that involved the White Eagles, i.e., Seselj's men.
8 Q. Thank you. The two lorries that you destroyed, were there any
9 troops in those lorries? Were there any casualties?
10 A. Yes, there were troops who were sitting in the back, but those
11 lorries were hit by the so-called RPGs, the big rocket-launcher that they
12 had brought back from Croatia, the RPG.
13 Q. Thank you very much. What happened next? How many people put up
14 their candidacy to join the Kondors and how big that unit and how
15 independent it was?
16 A. There were people --
17 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
19 MS. PACK: It was developing into a leading question. It just
20 survived not being one, if Dr. Karadzic be careful.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm not sure.
22 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. So there were 200 men?
1 A. Mr. President, there were 200 men, there were Kondors in black
2 uniforms. They -- and in the 16th Muslim Brigade there was a group of
3 over 200 men who were known as Sarenci [phoen], they had special
4 camouflage uniforms, green berets, and Kalashnikov machine-guns.
5 Q. Thank you. And where did you arrive then and when?
6 A. Then we went -- and we are talking about the time when we
7 returned from Tinja; right?
8 Q. No, when did you arrive home?
9 A. I went to a place called Miljanovci, on the road from Zvornik to
10 Tuzla, and we spent a couple of days there. We were told that we should
11 attack a hilltop called Vis, which is on the left-hand side from
12 Miljanovci as you enter Miljanovci from Zvornik. We were also told that
13 we would be helped by the units from Tuzla, which were known at the time
14 as the Dragon of Bosnia. They were going to help us with tanks and
15 mortars and we were supposed to launch an infantry attack in order to
16 take Vis. When we attacked Vis, they did not help us, there were no
17 tanks, there were no mortars, so we had to withdraw. During that
18 withdrawal, we spent a night in Miljanovci, and from there we proceeded
19 towards Hajvazi. We were supposed to attack Hajvazi and to kill the Serb
20 population there, all of them, in order to free the corridor between
21 Tuzla, Kalesija, Miljanovci, and Hajvazi, to free the passage to
22 Zvornicka Kamenica that was at the time held by the Muslims.
23 Q. Thank you. So what happened in Hajvazi? How did you fare?
24 A. In Hajvazi, when we arrived there, the first night one of our
25 soldiers from the 16th Muslim Brigade was killed. He had kept a diary.
1 He recorded who killed whom, who slit whose throat. He was killed that
2 night, not by the Serbs but by somebody else, I don't know who. From
3 there we proceeded in the morning. We started deploying at dawn and we
4 proceeded towards (redacted)
12 up to 1998 or 1999, on account of a false information that I had been
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Line 3, or rather, line 5 to
15 line 10, can that be redacted. If you agree, I believe that this should
16 indeed be done.
17 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. And did you engage in Hajvazi? Did you manage to take Hajvazi?
20 A. We collected our dead and we returned to - what's it called? - a
21 village near Kalesija. We buried them there and then we returned to
22 Haj -- Zvornicka Kamenica. There was some killings there, we captured
23 some Serbs. Taran and his brother Kobra killed those Serbs. I had to
24 pull them into high grass. Taran had told me to bury them. I didn't
25 want to dig holes. I just dragged them over there some 10 or 15 metres
1 away. I asked some people to go to that sector to find them because I
2 didn't believe that somebody came and collect their bodies, but we didn't
3 get the approval to go there to that location. And then --
4 Q. How many Serbs were killed? Were they killed in fighting or had
5 they been arrested?
6 A. Mr. President, they were on a horse and a cart. There were five
7 or six of them. One had a semi-automatic rifle. Taran Osmanovic and his
8 brother Kobra arrested them. They jumped on them immediately. We had to
9 obey their rules, and then they killed those five men. A group of people
10 came out of a streamlet, including women, and they told us that they had
11 arrived from Srebrenica, that they were Muslims. Among them there were
12 women and men, and Taran ordered us to kill them, that they should not be
13 allowed to say what had happened to the previous five men. So we did
14 that, and again I had to drag those bodies with some other lads who were
15 with me. We had to drag those bodies. We were supposed to bury them in
16 holes, but I never wanted to bury those men. He shouted at me, asking me
17 why I wouldn't do that. I couldn't, I just couldn't. I pleaded -- I
18 still plead with the International Tribunal to allow us to go to Hajvazi
19 to that location and then you will gain the best picture of what had
20 happened there, because the Federation never allowed us to go there to
21 that location.
22 Q. Thank you. Were those really Muslims, these civilians?
23 A. Mr. President, they claimed they were going from Srebrenica and
24 they were Muslims, but all they had on them were photographs, no
25 passports, no IDs, and no evidence, no proof. It wasn't like a woman
1 could produce an ID and say: I'm Ajsa. Some were wearing Turkish
2 pantaloons, another was wearing Muslim clothing. But even if they had
3 had IDs to prove they were Muslims, they would still have been killed by
4 Taran in order to prevent this story from spreading about who had killed
5 the previous five.
6 Q. How many were these civilians?
7 A. That was the first group. Are we talking about the first group
8 at Hajvazi? Two women and three men.
9 Q. What is the real name of this Taran?
10 A. Adil Osmanovic.
11 Q. Thank you. And where did your unit go after that?
12 A. We returned from there to Miljanovci, and there we get orders to
13 go again to Neza -- Nezuh. In Nezuh we spent a few days waiting for a
14 guide whose nickname was Ninja. After a couple of days, he took us to
15 Konjevic Polje.
16 Q. What happened in Konjevic Polje, who did you meet with? Or did
17 you join anyone, and who was leading you at that point in the 16th?
18 A. The 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade, when they came from Nezuk with
19 this Ninja guide, we were there for a while as the 16th Muslim Eastern
20 Brigade, not long, until Naser and Zulfo Tursun came, accompanied by
21 Amir, and they held a meeting in Konjevic Polje in the schoolhouse.
22 Nurif Rizvanovic took out a yellow envelope there and handed it to Naser.
23 When Naser saw from that paper that Rizvanovic was supposed to be the
24 commander all the way to Bijeljina, that he would be like the
25 Commander-in-Chief in that area, Naser didn't agree with it and Zulfo
1 Tursun didn't agree with it, so they scheduled another meeting to be held
2 in Srebrenica. A couple of days later, the orders came that we were
3 going to Srebrenica for that meeting and it was in the Hotel Domavija.
4 They couldn't come to an agreement there either. It was decided that we,
5 the 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade, under the command of Nurif Rizvanovic
6 would have as our area the area up to Konjevic Polje, and the rest would
7 be under Naser. And the agreement reached at that meeting was that we
8 would help each other out.
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Sorry, Mr. Witness, do you
10 understand English?
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know much English, very
17 JUDGE KWON: Okay.
18 [Trial Chamber confers]
19 JUDGE KWON: Yes, you can wear the headphones again.
20 Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber wanted to know where we were heading.
21 Through this -- it's a bit difficult to follow this line of evidence.
22 Can you assist us?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll try, Your Excellencies. What
24 I want is to put to the Trial Chamber the atmosphere with all its
25 military and civilian aspects, from Zvornik to Zepa, then we will be
1 moving on from 1993 to 1995, to see who the people were who were in
2 command there. We'll do it very briefly, we'll see what was going on,
3 who was killing whom, and then we will move on to the crisis in 1993 and
4 then the crisis in 1995.
5 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
6 MS. PACK: Your Honour, just one thing. It may be that there's a
7 need for a redaction at lines 11 to 12 of page 70. It's a matter for the
8 Defence and Your Honours, of course, but just highlighting it.
9 MR. ROBINSON: I was going to suggest that, yes.
10 JUDGE KWON: Duly noted.
11 Please continue.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. And we could also
13 redact, perhaps, the information provided by Mr. Robinson about where the
14 witness had lived for some time.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, I'd appreciate it if you could do this briefly. Let us just
17 concentrate on what happened and then move on to 1993. What happened
18 with your unit and with Nurif Rizvanovic?
19 A. You mean very briefly, after that meeting in Konjevic Polje?
20 Q. Yes, no details. Just the events. This happened, that happened.
21 How was this disagreement between Rizvanovic and Naser Oric resolved?
22 A. The agreement when we came was for us to attack that village.
23 Nurif Rizvanovic and the 16th Muslim Brigade, assisted by Naser Oric and
24 Zulfo Tursun and other units, we attacked Siljkovici, but they didn't
25 help us. And we immediately lost ground because Naser stabbed us in the
1 back, spreading stories among the people: You see what kind of army this
2 is, they were not able to get into Kravica.
3 And then what happened next in Srebrenica, we, the 16th Muslim
4 Eastern Brigade, all the able-bodied people in Srebrenica, who were
5 suffering shortages of food, et cetera, et cetera, we were supposed to
6 help them to go to Tuzla. We agreed. Commander Rizvanovic and Tursun
7 promised to help us, and we, the 16th Muslim Eastern Brigade, were
8 supposed to take these people to Tuzla. We agreed.
9 When the people gathered and when we headed from Konjevic Polje
10 across Cerska, Redzici, Bajrici, Zvornicka Kamenica, when we reached
11 Crni Vrh, we had Motorolas, we had a radio that belonged to us, the
12 16th Brigade. There was the second incident of back-stabbing. Naser
13 called the Serbs and told them that 3.000 Mujahedin were coming to attack
14 them, and then a plane came and started bombing us with some incendiary
15 ammunition and the Serbian army started defending that road thinking that
16 we were the Mujahedin and we were about to attack Zvornik. A lot of men
17 got killed there. One part of our column managed to get through, and the
18 first commander at the head of that column was Velid Sabic. One group of
19 the people managed to get through with him, and the rest of us were
20 engulfed in battle between Crni Vrh and Gornja Kamenica. It was a very
21 difficult situation. They were coming at us from all sides, but we
22 managed to get out. But still we --
23 Q. Could you speak more slowly so that everything is recorded. What
24 kind of losses did you suffer and what happened with those bodies?
25 A. To tell you honestly, Karadzic, we had losses and people from our
1 unit were buried in Zvornicka Kamenica. We had losses but I don't know
2 exactly how many, but lots of us were killed and some of the people who
3 were with us.
4 Q. Did somebody later bury them to the best of your knowledge?
5 A. I don't know about those people, ordinary people, who were
6 following us. After that we came to Konjevic Polje, and then a couple of
7 days later news came from Srebrenica. An attack followed at Ilino Brdo
8 and Cerska. Again, the 16th Brigade with Nurif Rizvanovic were supposed
9 to be there for the next couple of days to await that attack. Nurif was
10 wearing a jumper and camouflage pants. A lot of local residents from
11 Cerska were getting killed, and again -- how can a sniper hit a civilian
12 in a trench and cannot hit Nurif Rizvanovic? So that back-stabbing
13 campaign started again. Nurif Rizvanovic is not being targeted by the
14 Serbs, et cetera, et cetera.
15 We had two cousins from Bijeljina, we call them the diesel guys.
16 Out of those two cousins, two were killed and another man were killed
17 from Bratunac. After those seven days when we were waiting for that
18 attack at Ilino Brdo and trying to defend ourselves, during that attack
19 Zulfo Tursun and Naser Oric came to Konjevic Polje. Naser Oric went to
20 Cerska and Zulfo Tursun stayed with his men there. They arrested
21 Rizvanovic and attacked us because we were allegedly attacking our own
23 Q. We are talking too fast. So what happened? He was arrested and
24 taken to Srebrenica; right?
25 A. Nurif Rizvanovic, when he was arrested, he was locked up the
1 first seven days in Konjevic Polje, in a warehouse, where there is a
2 petrol station now. There was a shop there at the time. Naser came and
3 Zulfo Tursunovic promised that he would be tried in Srebrenica.
4 Zulfo Tursun and another man who drove a motor cultivator took him from
5 there, passed through Konjevic Polje, and liquidated him somewhere near
6 Sandici. Nobody knows to this day where his body is.
7 Q. Can you now tell me briefly what happened with your unit after
8 the murder of Nurif Rizvanovic?
9 A. A couple of days later, an offer was made to us to go where we
10 wanted to go to Srebrenica. Some went to Srebrenica. I went personally
11 to join the independent battalion in Glogova.
12 Q. And how many losses did you have at Ilino Brdo and who buried
13 these people?
14 A. Seven. These people from Cerska, they had their own workers'
15 platoon that picked up the wounded and the dead, but where they took them
16 I don't know.
17 Q. And how many casualties?
18 A. In my unit, the 16th Muslim Brigade, we lost 15 to 20 pieces --
19 MS. PACK: Your Honour.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
21 MS. PACK: Your Honour, we've been going for quite some time now,
22 and I am struggling --
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 MS. PACK: -- to see the relevance of most of this testimony, in
25 particular the detail. I struggle to see the relevance.
1 JUDGE KWON: That's why I asked the question. It's up to you how
2 to use your time, but it's inappropriate to delve into such detail while
3 background may be relevant to this case.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. This
5 witness waited for ten years to tell someone the truth --
6 JUDGE KWON: No, it's --
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- so it's difficult for me to stop
9 JUDGE KWON: -- inappropriate comment, but please continue.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm just repeating what he said
11 when he made the solemn declaration.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Now, Witness, can you tell us, what did your battalion hold in
14 the meantime? Why did it stop holding what it was holding and where did
15 you go next?
16 A. At that time we were deployed in Konjevic Polje along lines. By
17 that time I had joined the Independent Mountain Battalion in Glogova, and
18 I held the line from Burnice village near Previla hill, until an order
19 came from Srebrenica, from Ejub Golic, that everybody who had joined the
20 independent battalion and all the Glogova residents should gather
21 together to get Glogova back.
22 Q. Did you manage, and until what time did you defend it?
23 A. Yes, we recaptured Glogova and managed to defend it all the way
24 until 1993, mid-April 1993.
25 Q. It's much better when you answer briefly. And where did you go
1 then and why?
2 A. Then I moved to Srebrenica because Naser had come to Glogova
3 several times. We didn't want to leave Glogova, we had lost 150 of our
4 men there, and it was hard for us to decide to leave Glogova. And Naser
5 came five or six times, begging us to leave Glogova. He promised us
6 better treatment in Srebrenica, and it's true to this day that the men
7 from Glogova were the best fighters.
8 Q. And where were you during the Serb counter-offensive on
9 Srebrenica and were you in Srebrenica when General Morillon was there
10 visiting? And were you able, and from what distance, to follow, to
11 observe, his visit?
12 A. In 1993, when the Serbs attacked Srebrenica, from Kragljivode,
13 from -- until that hill, I participated in all that until they told us
14 the UNPROFOR was coming. At that point, I went to Srebrenica. We had
15 our own special command for our men from Glogova, and I found myself
16 close to Morillon and Naser Oric, when he held that speech from the
17 window of the post office building.
18 Q. Can we see you in that footage where Morillon is holding a
20 A. Yes. I was watching one of the cases here in The Hague when this
21 footage was shown, and I watched it again when I was in prison. Again,
22 this same footage we saw a moment ago in the case of -- I don't remember
23 which trial it was. And from that time I kept writing to the
24 International Tribunal in The Hague, that I was not dead, that I was
1 Q. I hope the Prosecution will give us that letter you wrote.
2 And did you have occasion to be close to Naser Oric after you
3 moved to Srebrenica?
4 A. Yes, a couple of times. And I spoke to him, I had two meetings
5 with him.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown, without
7 broadcasting, 1D9584. And could the witness be given the electronic pen,
8 please, the Stylus. This is not to be broadcast.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Could you please mark yourself with an arrow and Naser Oric as
12 A. That's him. Take the footage from before, shave that face, and
13 you will be able to compare.
14 Q. Put number 1 next to Naser Oric and 2 next to yourself.
15 A. [Marks]
16 Q. When was this taken?
17 A. When we arrived in the centre of Kravica. This large building
18 used to be a shop before the war. It's in the centre of Kravica. This
19 does not exist anymore because a monument has been erected in this place.
20 Q. What date was it?
21 A. 7 January 1993. Sometime afternoon.
22 Q. Please place HV12 [as interpreted] in the bottom of the
23 photograph and today's date.
24 A. [Marks]
25 Q. W, all right.
1 A. Today's date?
2 Q. Yes, I think today's the 9th, if I'm correct.
3 A. [Marks]
4 Q. Thank you.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this please be admitted under
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
8 THE REGISTRAR: It receives document number D4181, under seal,
9 Your Honours.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
11 1D9585, please.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, if I may just say
13 something about this photograph because there's a man here whom I know
14 and who is something.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we please return it so that the
16 witness may, if the Chamber allows the witness to clarify this. But
17 again, please do not broadcast it.
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I wanted to say that this man here
19 whom you can see -- can we manage this, please.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Stylus has not been activated.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Not activated. I need this man
22 because of a grave in Kragljivode.
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. He would know where the grave in Kragljivode was. Whose grave is
1 A. It's in the statement, once we get to that today or tomorrow,
2 when the attack on Kragljivode was launched, when the Serbs and Russians
3 were taken prisoners and buried and the grave is not there. It has not
4 been found to this day.
5 Q. It has been moved?
6 A. We have been in the field a metre or a metre and a half to it but
7 it has gone missing. It was all one grave next to the other. This man,
8 today he's the main man in charge of the graves, he searches for them.
9 He's the main man today and I had problems with him when I came to my
10 town, to my native town, in 2010.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we just go into private
13 session for a minute to hear his name.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know his name. I just know
15 that he's from Voljavac.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Then we don't need to
17 do that. Now, if we can see the other document first.
18 But, excuse me, if we can add this to the previous number,
19 please. No, it's unnecessary. All right. Fine.
20 1D9585, please. That one should also not be broadcast, please.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you be seen in this photograph? We can see Naser. Can you
23 just circle yourself, please.
24 A. Well, I can't even recognise myself. That's what the photograph
25 is like.
1 Q. You can't recognise yourself?
2 A. I can't recognise myself here because the photograph is all
3 somehow like this, the face.
4 Q. All right. We'll survive with just the one that we already had.
6 Now I would ask you if you can, as briefly as possible, tell us
7 how many actions Naser launched against the Serbian villages between the
8 place when the protected zone was declared and 1995, July 1995?
9 A. There was an action in 1994 when we went up to help Gorazde, and
10 from there the troops were collected in Srebrenica and then they went to
11 help those at their back. How can I explain to the Chamber and you and
12 everyone? We had some sort of demobilisation [as interpreted] at the
13 time. Nobody touched us. No one shot at us, no one was attacking us.
14 But it was decided then and we went up there, I have a witness for that
15 also, who is now in the Foca penal and correctional facility. We met
16 once. We saw one another and were introduced. That was during this
18 Q. In line 25, I believe that you said "demilitarisation," rather
19 than "demobilisation"; correct?
20 A. Yes, that demote zone as it was saying on the boards at the time.
21 Q. Thank you. Were there any other actions in surrounding villages
22 that you were aware of when you went out into the Serbian villages and
23 outside from the protected zone?
24 A. There was that one and it was said that the -- the headquarters
25 should be blown up, and once there was an ambush in -- near Crni Vrh,
1 close to Zvornicka Kamenica, where some police and military troops were
3 Q. Thank you. And could you now please tell us, what was the road
4 travelled by your unit and you personally from the 11th of July in the
5 evening up -- and then the first night and the second night and the first
6 day and the second night and the second day, when did you start
7 withdrawing and did you start withdrawing? Did you leave as a unit? Can
8 you tell us as briefly as possible how did that go, who made the decision
9 and where did you leave? Where did you go to?
10 A. Just briefly, on the 10th of July, 1995, under the command of
11 Ejub Golic, who was killed, and with Zulfo Tursun, who had a conversation
12 about money, the money didn't arrive in time, it was not distributed,
13 only to the independent mountain battalion. And we left the front. We
14 set off in the direction of Srebrenica. We reached our command in
15 Srebrenica, where it was. We burnt our papers. Then we set out from
16 there and we reached the UNPROFOR base, and there a guard, as there was a
17 guard-house that was quite high, perhaps 3 metres, and there was one
18 guard who was at the gate and one who was there, they didn't allow us to
19 enter. And one guard was killed, he was a Dutch man, and the other one
20 was wounded. We then broke inside. We collected our weapons which had
21 been seized from us as early as in 1993 when the UNPROFOR came and -- the
22 Canadians at first and then those Dutchmen also. We collected our
23 weapons. We boarded them on to a truck and with the truck we came above
24 a village which stretches from the graveyard in Kazani up until Fojari,
25 the village that's on the right-hand side. I'm not sure what the name of
1 the area is. From there we transported the weapons to Cumavici, where we
2 would need to be reviewed. Whoever did not have a rifle was given one.
3 And the people who left from there, who wanted to go with the battalion
4 was going together with us. From there we went down to Lehovici. From
5 Lehovici we reached Susnjari --
6 Q. You said that there was a troop review in Cumavici; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. All right. Do you know who made the decision that all the
9 28th Division should be sent towards Tuzla?
10 MS. PACK: I don't think there was evidence to that effect yet.
11 That's a leading question, Your Honour.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I shall rephrased it.
13 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. How did it happen that the entire 28th Division should leave
15 Srebrenica and set out from there?
16 A. We from the independent mountain battalion, from Glogova under
17 the command of Ejub Golic left the line, from Zeleni Jadar and the Tabla
18 hill all the way to another big hill whose name I didn't know, we were
19 holding the line but we didn't get the money as promised by Zulfo Tursun,
20 and we didn't get the money that came from Sarajevo in the helicopter
21 that crashed. They were supposed to distribute 100 Deutschemarks to
22 every soldier, but one hodza and one woman went to Serbia. They got
23 caught there. They never distributed the money to us, and we abandoned
24 the front line. Nobody wanted to defend Srebrenica for free and have
25 other people get rich at our expense.
1 Q. Thank you. And do you know about the others? Did all the
2 brigade that were part of the 28th Division move towards there?
3 A. All of us, as we were going back from Tabla hill towards
4 Srebrenica, all the people from the houses also set out in the direction
5 of the centre of Srebrenica town. And then all of the people, one group
6 from Potocari, UNPROFOR via Susnjari to Buljim, all of us got together in
7 Susnjari, the commands, and that was the place where we rallied. And the
8 people were moving towards Buljim and Tuzla because everyone had been
9 told that we would be moving towards Tuzla.
10 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us how you fared during the first night.
11 As briefly as possible, just list for us what were all the things that
12 happened during the first night as you set out and initiated a
14 A. During the first night when we started, Ejub Golic was next to
15 me, there was one young man we called Rambo, a relative of Ejub Golic,
16 and there was Kezo also, who was the commander of the 2nd Company of the
17 2nd Battalion and the Mountain Battalion. And we were the last to set
18 off in terms of Buljim in the direction of Tuzla. The column had moved
19 before us. When we came down to a brook, from Buljim, once we reached
20 this brook, then an oak fell down rather than an elm, as I have been
21 hearing the witnesses say here for years, and this oak had carvings on it
22 made by a knife or a small axe and it had been set on fire. It fell
23 5 metres in front of us. When it fell down, people started shooting. It
24 was the Serbs shooting from the direction of Sandici. And from their
25 Pragas and their APCs, they fired. And on the left-hand side, as we were
1 moving from the direction of Srebrenica, we got engaged. We went up the
2 hill because there was a hill on the right-hand side, from Kravica to
3 Sandici, and on the left-hand side we mounted the hill, as you can see,
4 that's the Rogac hill. So we held this hill during that night because
5 the Serbian army was down there. There's a field down there in the road.
6 When they saw that we had mounted before them and started shooting
7 against them, then they couldn't mount the hill because there was too
8 much clear ground. And in the morning I saw -- let me not mention any
9 numbers, but I saw perhaps around 100 bodies from Buljim down there.
10 What I would like to explain to the Chamber now, there at Buljim, there
11 weren't so many casualties as in Burnice, at the very entrance to
12 Burnice, the village.
13 Q. On the same night or --
14 A. The following day.
15 Q. Just help us now, please. These 100 bodies, did you bury them or
16 take them away with you or were they left there for somebody else to bury
18 A. No one touched them. You were just looking their back-packs
19 whether they had any ammunition. If I told someone that I had found
20 100.000 Deutschemarks --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Can the witness please repeat his last answer.
22 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, could you repeat from what -- from
23 where you referred to 100.000 Deutschemarks? And speak slowly, please.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. What did you do with 100.000 Deutschemarks?
1 A. I smoked them, I rolled them into cigarettes.
2 Q. The interpretation is wrong. You didn't roll them, but you
3 rolled tobacco into them?
4 A. That was my paper for cigarettes.
5 Q. And during that day was there any fighting?
6 A. Mr. President, we didn't fight at all until we reached the
7 Kaldrmica Put and Konjevic Polje.
8 Q. Aha. So on the following night --
9 A. There was an ambush at the entrance of Burnice.
10 Q. A Serbian ambush?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Can you please describe to the Chamber what happened on the
13 second night?
14 A. When the people were killed, we passed over these bodies, that
15 was between two hills and a big wide building was erected there. A woman
16 and a man from Konjevic Polje wanted to have a chicken farm there, and
17 that was where the ambush was made and a mass of dead were there and then
18 we passed them.
19 Q. Who shot on the second night? Who was shooting at whom?
20 A. The second night was Kaldrmica, down there. Once we reached the
21 village Burnice, the village Burnice. And when we reached a graveyard
22 Burnice, then there was the whole brigade, Zulfo Tursun to the left from
23 Novo Kasaba. We from Glogova would go straight. And the remaining
24 companies, and so on, there were three possible roads: Nova Kasaba, ones
25 would go there, Zulfo Tursun would go with them. Us from Glogova would
1 go towards the road Kaldrmica-Konjevic Polje, which crosses Milici. And
2 a third group would go from Taran's cafe restaurant and the bridge, there
3 was a bridge there. The third group was supposed to attack there because
4 it was reported to us that Serbs were there under the fly-over and that
5 they were waiting to attack.
6 Q. How many casualties were there during the second night and did
7 you bring them with you or did you bury them?
8 A. There were casualties along the bridge, in Kaldrmica, but the
9 casualties were people who were shooting from Taran's cafe restaurant in
10 Konjevic Polje and from this hill whose name I don't know above
11 Nova Kasaba, the first hill, and they were shooting from there. But
12 there weren't too many bodies as for that when we broke through the front
13 line, because I'm moving on from there to the Tumac [phoen] hill. And
14 the Tumac hill is on the right-hand side when going in the direction of
16 Q. Thank you. And which bodies did you have to go over? Whose
17 bodies were there and when were they killed on your entry into Kaldrmica
18 that you just mentioned?
19 A. These were Muslim bodies on the bridge -- excuse me, just hold
20 your horses. The bodies in Burnice, the ambush, these were the Muslim
21 bodies, we had to step over them, we could not pass through.
22 Q. How many bodies were there?
23 A. I cannot tell you the exact number, but there was quite a number
24 of them, quite a few of them. What I can testify is that when I left
25 Srebrenica and Buljim, one ambush, two ambushes, breaking through the
1 front line, reaching Crni Vrh, reaching close to Nezuk, going back, I can
2 just confirm that I could see between 15- and 1700 dead.
3 Q. Thank you. And where did you spend the third night?
4 A. When I went to Udrc and we reached it, then I was going back
5 along the road because we couldn't pass. Then I returned again, and that
6 would be the 13th in the morning. I hid in a grave, concrete grave, I
7 hid there and in the morning as I was getting out, a man, a Serb, a
8 soldier threw a rifle down because he was so afraid. There was another
9 one who aimed his rifle at me and he said: How come that you're coming
10 out of there? And that was when nobody beat me, nobody did nothing to me
11 there. We left there. I went to Kravica. 24 of them in front of me, I
12 was the 25th, and then --
13 Q. We will get to that. Please tell us whether there were any
14 losses from friendly fire, as it's usually called, among the Muslims, I
15 mean, once you split into these three columns?
16 A. Well, there were murders, Mr. Karadzic, and everyone else in the
17 courtroom, there were people who got killed because once the shooting
18 started, groups would be formed, three, four, or five of us who knew each
19 other would form a group. We were one group. Then somebody else would
20 come along. He didn't have, for example, his military ID. Then you
21 would kill him on the spot if he didn't have a personal ID. Such things
22 did happen.
23 Q. Why were there such killings?
24 A. We didn't trust anyone anymore, the world, the people, not
25 yourself, you wouldn't trust yourself even in such a moment.
1 Q. Were there killings out of confusion during the night when
2 darkness fell?
3 A. Yes, every night there would be -- somebody would shout: The
4 Chetniks are coming, shoot, shoot --
5 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. All those are leading questions
6 which would reduce the probative value of this witness's evidence.
7 Please continue.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Did you have an occasion to see somebody surrendering, to whom?
11 Where were they?
12 A. In Sandici some people were taken prisoners. Those who were
13 killed in Konjevic Polje. Nurif Rizvanovic's brother Huso wore a white
14 shirt and he invited people to surrender. He guaranteed people that
15 nothing would happen to them and people did surrender. I don't know
16 where these people are who killed him. I haven't a clue.
17 Q. Could you see them after their surrender?
18 A. I passed between the villages of Kamenica. Here in the
19 International Criminal Tribunal nobody knew that there was
20 Kamenica Pobudjka, the only story was about Zvornik. From Kamenica to
21 Kravica there is about 10 to 20 minutes on foot and from the hilltop you
22 can see Sandici where people had surrendered.
23 Q. Did you see those people in Sandici? How many were there in
24 Sandici according to you?
25 A. According to my estimate, in Sandici, I really can't say how many
1 there were, perhaps about 250 to 300 people all together.
2 Q. When you were taken by Sandici, you had already been arrested?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Where were you taken --
5 JUDGE KWON: One clarification. Minutes ago you said, for
6 example, anybody of the group did not have, for example, his military ID,
7 then you would kill him on the spot if he didn't have his ID. Do you
8 remember having said that?
9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, and I stand by it. Judge, if
10 I don't know you and if I tell you stop and you stop and I ask you where
11 you're from and then you say a Muslim name.
12 JUDGE KWON: But did you not say today before that you all burnt
13 your papers?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the independent mountain
15 battalion, we burned the papers belonging to the people. We didn't want
16 the Serbs to find our names, we didn't know them -- to know them how many
17 fighters they -- there were, because we knew that all of our names had
18 already been sent to Tuzla. We burnt everything in our command, all the
19 orders at that command. We did not want to leave anything to the Serbs,
20 to Ratko Mladic. We didn't want them to know what we had done. If you
21 were a member of a unit, you had to have a military booklet. It was a
22 blue booklet with your name, your photo, and the white lily on the cover.
23 And if I did not see that, I kill -- I would kill you immediately. Even
24 if you were my mother, I wanted to save my hide and that's why I'm here.
25 I was more than a slave and now I know more than I was supposed to know.
1 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the accused please be
2 asked not to overlap and allow for the interpretation to finish.
3 JUDGE KWON: You should put a pause yourself. Please continue.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I need to be reminded of that
5 more than the witness.
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So you didn't burn your IDs?
8 A. We did not burn our military booklets. We burned the orders, all
9 the other documents. For example, there were papers on which it said
10 Husic Huso went somewhere and killed two, and those strategic places,
11 there were maps drawn for the people to show them where they had to go.
12 We burnt all that, all about the operations that took place between 1992
13 and 1993. As for the military booklets, each of the soldiers had to have
14 one on him.
15 Q. Thank you. What was the assumption, if somebody didn't have
16 those documents why was he supposed to be killed?
17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness and the accused be asked not
18 to overlap.
19 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Could you repeat your answer. Start
20 over from the beginning -- from the outset.
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Do you want me to repeat about the
22 burning of the documents?
23 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
24 Q. No, no, no. Why were the -- did they risk being killed if they
25 did not have their military booklets? What was the assumption?
1 A. Well, I had several such cases where I had to act to save my
2 life. For example, if they didn't know the code, you would kill them.
3 Some of them we stripped to see whether they had been circumcised. You
4 killed them, although later on it would turn out that the person was a
6 Q. You say that they were not circumcised?
7 A. Yes. The times were such that you couldn't say I'm Huso Husic
8 from Osmace. I needed to see a document to prove you were who you say
9 you were. And then when they say: Well, I left them in Srebrenica, I
10 couldn't care less.
11 Q. On line 13 you said the names of some Muslim players, instead of
12 that we see the word "code." What is Bismillah, can you tell that to the
13 Chamber and the interpreter?
14 A. Bismillah Surah is something from the Qur'an. It's a prayer that
15 every Muslim child learns when are they at the age of three or four.
16 It's a very common basic Muslim prayer.
17 Q. Thank you. And when the 25 of you were brought to Kravica, can
18 you tell us, very shortly but very accurately, what happened there?
19 A. When we entered Kravica, on the left-hand side I saw some people
20 sitting there. There were two openings, and we proceeded to the entrance
21 on the right-hand side. At that moment, a person from Kravica who knew
22 me and my mother, he knew me and he asked me what I was doing there, and
23 then I said: Well, you see I'm here.
24 Q. Don't say his name, we are in open session --
25 MS. PACK: Objection --
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And he took me to the office.
2 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ...
3 MS. PACK: I'm just noting, I'm afraid I didn't stand up fast
4 enough because of the interpreting, but there was a leading question,
5 "and when the 25 of you were brought to Kravica," there's been nothing
6 about 25 people during the evidence. It's just repeating these leading
7 questions throughout this latter part of the testimony.
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, where did these 25 people come from?
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, if it wasn't recorded it's a
10 problem. The witness is speaking fast and so am I, but the witness did
11 say: There were 24 of us plus me and it took us about 10 to 15 minutes
12 to arrive in Kravica. This is what the witness did say.
13 MR. ROBINSON: That's on page 86, lines 20 and 21.
14 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Mr. Robinson.
15 Please put a pause. It's almost impossible to catch up such
16 speed on the part of the interpreters.
17 Please continue.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Continue. You said that a man, a friend of yours, recognised
21 you. Can you now tell us the sequence of events in Kravica?
22 A. He told me to go to a room. I opened the door. I entered. The
23 room was small and there was another room adjacent to it, and I heard
24 short bursts of fire and I jumped through the window and I just split. I
1 Q. How many people were there, according to your estimate, who were
2 killed and how many of them were in the left room, those who had arrived
3 before you?
4 A. According to my estimate, a minimum in the left room were about
5 70 to 80 people. Those rooms could not hold 100 or 200 people. Those
6 were two small rooms and there was a partition between the two of them.
7 Can I have some water, please?
8 Q. I apologise.
9 Could you see something? On top of hearing things.
10 A. No, I couldn't see anything. I couldn't see whether those men
11 from my group were killed. I couldn't see anything. I only know that I
12 saw a video-clip. It was shown on TV, mostly by Sarajevo television, and
13 namely I was wrote about --
14 MS. PACK: Your Honour --
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- that I could see people lying
16 on the --
17 MS. PACK: If it's the case that the witness is about to testify
18 to what he watched subsequently on TV, I really struggle to see how this
19 could assist the Court.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, I agree.
21 Move on or reformulate your question. Probably if you want to
22 ask something specific.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because I knew --
1 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- those men and I saw them on
3 TV --
4 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ...
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Because they were in my group and I
6 saw them on TV on that video-clip --
7 JUDGE KWON: Wait for the question.
8 Just both do not overlap. Just wait. Yes, please continue.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. After you heard those shots, did you subsequently learn what had
11 happened to your colleagues who had been brought together with you and
12 how did you learn that?
13 A. I learned what I just tried to tell you. When I escaped, I came
14 across a man whose name was Enver, and he claimed that he had been in
15 Kravica and that he escaped from there. And because of him, six lads had
16 been sentenced to 40 years in Bosnia-Herzegovina. When I researched that
17 case and I provided a statement to the prosecutor's office, I can give
18 you the name of the person to whom I provided that statement. When I
19 provided that statement, he did not call me to testify. He threatened me
20 and told me that I was not supposed to talk about that.
21 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. Thank you. You said that you saw --
24 JUDGE KWON: No, the question was: "After you heard the shots,
25 did you subsequently learn what had happened to your colleagues who had
1 been brought together with you and how did you learn that?"
2 Did we hear the answer?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've just given you the answer. I
4 learned from a man or from people who were there that everybody in
5 Kravica had been killed, and I learned that in 2008 or 2009, for God's
6 sake. What I saw previously in 1997, 1998, I saw that on BH television
7 and airs that programme and claims that 1500 to 2000 men were killed.
8 When I met that colleague of mine - and I can tell you about the case
9 that was heard before a court in Bosnia-Herzegovina - the Skelanci case
10 and those --
11 THE INTERPRETER: Impossible to interpret.
12 JUDGE KWON: Could you repeat what you just said. Speak very
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, listen and understand
15 what I'm saying. You have a group in the prosecutor's office on the
16 prosecution team --
17 JUDGE KWON: Probably you don't understand. Unfortunately, I do
18 not understand your language. I hear from the interpreters
19 interpretation. If you speak so fast, it's impossible for them to
20 interpret. So please speak slowly. They didn't hear your last answer.
21 Could you repeat it.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] From Skelanci, the Skelanci group
23 and then continue from there.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When there was a trial involving
25 six guys from Skelani, alleging that they had participated in the
1 killings of 1500 to 2000 Muslims in Kravica, I was in a different kind of
2 life. I was in a political life, and those politicians from the
3 Federation, not from Republika Srpska, appointed me to that position.
4 And then I saw in the newspapers that there was a trial and I recognised
5 those men on TV. And on the following morning, I got up and I wrote a
6 letter to the prosecutor's office in Sarajevo, asking them for somebody
7 from the prosecutor's office to visit me because I wanted to give them my
8 statement about those lads.
9 And when I did provide a statement, when I started telling them
10 my story about the cases that I'm telling you about today, one of the
11 prosecutors took me to the bathroom in the place where I was and I
12 told -- and he told me not to mention Naser Oric or others from that
13 unit. I was supposed to testify on behalf of those lads, and the other
14 guy testified, that one that I found when I jumped through the window in
15 Kravica. Enver is his name. He said that he was there, that he saw
16 everything, that he had been wounded in the lower leg, and that's the guy
17 who I found on the hilltop. He was the key witness and still they got
18 37, 38, or even 40 years each.
19 I was promised from there that people would come from the court
20 to take me to court, nobody came, nobody wanted to come and pick me up.
21 And when the lads came to me, when I started to socialise with them, when
22 I gave them the papers, when they saw what I had done for them, and I was
23 supposed to be there on their behalf, people almost killed each other,
24 because I -- the others had threatened me for what I wanted to do for
1 JUDGE KWON: Please pause there.
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber has difficulty in understanding or in
4 following this part, so could you -- Mr. Karadzic, could you break down
5 so that the witness can state what he wants to tell us.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. I'll
7 give it a try.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. So, after you fled from the co-operative, from the office, can
10 you describe very briefly where you were and what happened to you?
11 A. I ran away, I ran through the woods, I lived in the woods,
12 managing ten minutes -- ten months passed between that and the arrest.
13 Everybody understands here in the international forum that I was under
14 their protection. What do they call it? ICTY. But still my own people
15 sent me into prison --
16 JUDGE KWON: Just a second --
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. So you were in hiding for ten months?
19 JUDGE KWON: Please put a pause, please. Put your question
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Now you said you were in hiding in the woods for ten months.
23 Were you alone? Were you in a group? And was it the only group in those
24 ten months?
25 A. That group that I met, that was in Zvornicka Kamenica. With that
1 group I came back to Srebrenica, to Lehovici. That group remained there,
2 and I joined some other people and went to Zepa. In that other group,
3 there were another six people.
4 Q. When were you captured again?
5 A. 30th May 1996.
6 Q. Thank you. What did they know about you and how?
7 A. When I was brought - can I say where I was brought? - to Zvornik,
8 to the police, the police interrogated me and they accused me that I
9 killed four Serbs and one Muslim out of that group of seven who were
10 arrested before the 10th of May. So they put it all on me, they blamed
11 it all on me, and it was up to me to defend myself from these charges.
12 JUDGE KWON: Just to be clear, arrested by who, Mr. Witness?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The police of Republika Srpska.
14 JUDGE KWON: Please continue.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
16 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Were you prosecuted and tried and what happened later?
18 A. I was tried based on their allegations. There was no evidence.
19 And from 1996 to date, there are no bodies, no rifle. These are the
20 people killed, the four Serbs, and they blamed it on me. There was an
21 Interpol arrest warrant for one of them, for that guy who was sent to
22 Switzerland. He got 20 years in prison for killing those four people in
23 Zepa. That's a political game being played now in the Federation. We
24 were being portrayed as heros, people who couldn't do that, but they
25 could and they did, 100 per cent. There is somebody in the Federation of
1 BH who's protecting them.
2 Q. You said the Mothers of Srebrenica and the SDA were protecting
4 A. The SDA, Sulejman Tihic, Bakira, the woman from Mothers of
5 Srebrenica, they keep protecting them and they keep trying to prove that
6 they are innocent. But they can't know better than me and that's why I'm
7 in everybody's way, in the way of the Muslims and Republika Srpska
8 because Muslims on one side know their own truth, the Serbs know another,
9 and they're all playing a game of -- a political game of tug of war.
10 Q. How did it come about that you got out of the Serb prison?
11 A. There was an exchange. It could have been the 22nd or the
12 24th of May, 1997. An exchange was agreed for one captain who had been
13 captured in Sarajevo and I together with three others were supposed to be
14 exchanged for him. He was to continue serving his sentence in
15 Republika Srpska, whereas I was supposed to go on serving my ten-year
16 sentence in Tuzla.
17 Q. While you were in prison in Republika Srpska or in the
18 Federation, were you prepared to state your own truth?
19 A. Back in 1996 I told the prison warden and I wrote letters
20 everywhere that they enable me to come to the international tribunal. At
21 that time it was a well-known fact there was an international tribunal in
22 The Hague and I wrote letters among other people to the chief of police.
23 Q. Did you try to get in touch later with someone from the OTP?
24 A. Only after 2008 or 2009.
25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D9587 is the next document I would
1 like to call up in e-court without broadcasting it.
2 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I would like you to stop for today at
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Can you tell us, if you remember, to whom did you write this
7 letter and when?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Unfortunately we still don't have a
9 translation. Perhaps the OTP has a translation because it's their
10 document, isn't it?
11 MS. PACK: I think we do. We were only informed that this would
12 be used, obviously, a few hours ago. But if I can just consult with my
13 colleague, I can see whether it can be uploaded.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Can you tell us what are you telling the prosecutor's office of
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina here, that you have some information?
17 A. Yes.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we scroll up.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Were you equally prepared to talk about the civilian losses on
21 both sides or only on one side?
22 A. Mr. Karadzic and everyone in the courtroom, that's the letter
23 that I sent when the prosecutor came to Foca and threatened me.
24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
1 MS. PACK: Your Honour, if it will assist, this could be shown
2 with the Prosecution's 65 ter number which is 25496, and there is a
4 JUDGE KWON: Okay. Thank you. Shall we upload it.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll read until we get the
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. It says:
9 "Dear gentlemen, I also know the exact dates and perpetrators of
10 the heinous crimes committed against innocent civilian population on the
11 territory of Srebrenica, Kravica, Sase, Loznicka Rijeka, Skelani
13 Who lived in Sase, Loznicka Rijeka, and Skelani?
14 A. In Kravica there was a majority Serb population. In Skelani, the
15 Serbs were -- at least in the surrounding villages there was a majority
16 of Serbs until perhaps Jezero.
17 Q. Loznicka Rijeka?
18 A. As far as I know, Serbs.
19 Q. Was your unit involved in the attack on the Fakovici village?
20 A. We were in Fakovici to lend a hand -- I mean we from the
21 independent mountain battalion.
22 Q. What was the reaction of the BH prosecutor's office to your
23 letter where you express your readiness to shed light on these crimes?
24 A. I'm now addressing the Judges and you, Mr. Karadzic, and the
25 Prosecutors. When I sent this letter, people from the Federation came to
1 see me, two prosecutors, and one woman, they recorded everything I said.
2 When I was supposed to go Sarajevo to be called as a witness at the
3 trial, I received very threatening messages from one man who sent this
4 message through an intermediary, and I have that witness whom I can call,
5 that man approached me and told me how things stood.
6 Q. Who was the prosecutor who visited you in Foca and threatened
8 A. The name? Bajro Kulovac.
9 Q. How did Bajro Kulovac's career progress?
10 A. Bajro Kulovac was a prosecutor. I don't know what happened with
11 him. I know that I had another encounter with him in 2010 because
12 this -- this occurred in 2008. And in 2010 I ended up at his mercy
13 again. Naser Oric was there, the president of the SDA, lawyer
14 Damir Alagic, they were the top people in the Federation. This
15 Bajro Kulovac tried to break my limbs. He wanted me to sign a paper
16 stating that I did not suffer anything in Srebrenica.
17 Q. When you say you were at his mercy, what does it mean?
18 A. Damir Alagic, a lawyer from Sarajevo, brought me to SIPA, to the
19 office of Bajro Kulovac, and they put to me papers, saying that I wasn't
20 in Srebrenica, I know nothing about Srebrenica. Then I asked
21 Bajro Kulovac: Why did you send those innocent men to prison when they
22 were not guilty? He said: I have the bullets, I have the bodies, I have
23 the bones. I said: Well, anybody could have found them in the woods.
24 And then he slapped me so hard I fell off the chair. Then in the
25 presence of Damir Alagic I was taken to the office of the boss in SIPA
1 for an interview, when they asked me - and maybe you know about that case
2 too - when he asked me if I had given that statement under coercion or of
3 my own will, when I was about to say, "Of my own will," Damir Alagic hit
4 me. Because Damir Alagic, the lawyer, didn't want to talk to that Serb
5 who was the chief of SIPA at that time. He wanted to talk to his own
7 Q. In line 20, they asked you to say you did not suffer anything in
8 Srebrenica, but in fact they wanted you to sign that you had never been
9 in Srebrenica?
10 A. Yes, they wanted me to sign that statement.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I remember your warning about the
12 time, Your Excellencies.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Why did they ask that? In 2010,
14 Amor Masovic told me in the presence of my father that it would have been
15 better for me to have kept my mouth shut and be still recorded as missing
16 because in that cases they wouldn't be looking for me.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll admit this letter under seal.
18 THE REGISTRAR: The document receives Exhibit Number D4182, under
19 seal, Your Honours.
20 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Witness, we'll continue tomorrow at 9.00.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Just can I make one correction in
22 the transcript.
23 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Did you say that Amor Masovic told you that you had -- it would
1 have been better for you to stay dead because you were already recorded
2 as dead?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the last sentence be redacted.
7 Fortunately enough, the father's name has not been recorded so no
8 redaction is necessary, but the audio can be redacted, i.e., it doesn't
9 have to be broadcast right.
10 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
11 Mr. Witness, I'd like to advise you not to discuss with anybody
12 else about your testimony. Do you understand that?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You mean I'm not supposed to talk
14 to anybody I know? Who am I not supposed to talk to?
15 JUDGE KWON: It's okay to talk to anybody, but you are not
16 supposed to discuss about your testimony. Now do you understand that?
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Not before your testimony is over.
19 A. Okay. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: In the remaining time, the Chamber will issue an
21 oral ruling on the accused's requested -- accused's request which was
22 filed on the 6th of December, 2013, that counsel for Ljubisa Beara,
23 Mr. John Ostojic, be present in the courtroom during Beara's testimony.
24 This request is granted.
25 Further, the Chamber has also considered the suggestion raised by
1 the accused and endorsed orally by the Prosecution on the 6th of December
2 in relation to Beara and Tolimir, that in light of the uncertainties
3 surrounding their testimony, their cross-examination be postponed until
4 after the winter recess. The Chamber considers that the Prosecution
5 should be ready to cross-examine Beara and Tolimir, who were indicted
6 respectively in 2002 and 2005; however, given the exceptional timing and
7 circumstances, the Chamber is minded to exercise a degree of flexibility.
8 This request is therefore granted and the Chamber wishes to note that the
9 binding effects of the subpoenas issued respectively against Beara and
10 Tolimir will continue to have effect until the completion of their
12 Finally, the Chamber will issue an oral ruling on the accused's
13 motion for access to audio recordings from Kvocka case filed on the
14 9th of December, 2013, wherein the accused requests access to the B/C/S
15 audio recordings of the testimony of Pero Rendic in the Kvocka case for
16 the purpose of preparing the Rule 92 ter attestation procedure. The
17 Prosecution notified the Chamber via e-mail on the 9th of December, 2013,
18 that it did not wish to respond to the motion. The motion is granted and
19 the Chamber hereby orders the Registry to grant the accused access to the
20 B/C/S audio recordings of the testimony of Pero Rendic in the Kvocka case
21 on the 5th of February, 2001.
22 The hearing is adjourned.
23 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.45 p.m.,
24 to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 10th day of
25 December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.