Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 44898

 1                           Wednesday, 11 December 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May I

 9     introduce Julie Malingreau, who is -- has been with my team since

10     September.  She is from Belgium and holds a master's from the University

11     of Amsterdam and also a master's from the University of Louvain-la-Neuve.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

13             Yes, Ms. Edgerton, please proceed.

14             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you.

15                           WITNESS:  VLADIMIR MATOVIC [Resumed]

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton:

18        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Matovic.  Can you understand me?

19        A.   Good morning.  Yes, I do understand.

20        Q.   I'm not going to keep you too long today, but I'd like to ask you

21     a couple of questions based on some of the things you said yesterday and

22     the statement you signed for Dr. Karadzic's team.

23        A.   Very well.

24        Q.   All right.  Now, yesterday you were explaining Mr. Cosic's

25     position on the arrest of Mr. Izetbegovic, following the publication of

Page 44899

 1     the Islamic Declaration.  And you had got, if you remember that, to the

 2     point where you were explaining how Izetbegovic's wife came with the

 3     families of those who had been arrested and brought some money, and then

 4     you were interrupted.  So, Mr. Matovic, without getting into more detail

 5     about -- are you all right, sir?

 6        A.   Yes.

 7        Q.   Without getting into more detail about what you were saying

 8     yesterday, I just want to ask you, it's actually correct, isn't it, that

 9     in the context of the forum established in Belgrade to protect freedom of

10     speech, Mr. Cosic spoke out in support of non-Serbs under arrest.  That's

11     right, isn't it?

12        A.   I would kindly ask that I tell you once again in my own words

13     what my recollection is and what I actually said.  Maybe it was a slip of

14     the tongue on my part.  May I repeat what I said yesterday.  No money,

15     for heaven's sake, no.  Mr. Cosic to receive it or in any way -- I mean,

16     really.  I hope that in most of the world that would be the greatest

17     possible offence, if somebody would offer you that kind of thing.  Right

18     now a campaign against corruption is under way in the country, but

19     really, for a man to hold such high office -- well, he wasn't president

20     yet at that time.  But still, for him to do that kind of thing, no.

21             At sessions of his own committee, he lodged a protest with the

22     authorities.  This was in Belgrade, but it was actually in Sarajevo that

23     the arrest took place, and even I as a journalist was involved in order

24     to write about that, and I said to my own paper -- actually, it was my

25     newspaper and the Sarajevo official newspaper "Oslobodjenje" that was

Page 44900

 1     supposed to write about this together.  I talked to Izetbegovic and I

 2     understood, according to my journalistic knowledge in terms of

 3     responsibility and guilt and freedom of expression, my understanding was

 4     that there was nothing criminal about what he did, simply that it was his

 5     right, because he just claimed that this Islamic Declaration was his

 6     religious belief, not anything that had to do so with statehood.  That's

 7     what Cosic said at the committee's session.  He lodged a protest.  I

 8     mean, I cannot even remember anymore.  I mean, he lodged so many protests

 9     in Belgrade.  He didn't want to go to Sarajevo, he didn't want to

10     interfere in their affairs, but this was a protest.  How can someone be

11     prosecuted for expressing his religious beliefs?  And then part of the

12     press that was more liberal, sort of, at the time and the families heard

13     about this and the wives, that is to say, the wife of Alija Izetbegovic

14     and -- but look, look.  They came home and they brought these gifts that

15     were very sweet, you know oriental sweets, small gifts.

16             Now, the Cosics -- well, he organised a luncheon close to his

17     house.  I can't remember now -- I mean, if it really matters to you, I

18     can even try to remember the restaurant where the luncheon was held, and

19     I know that during that conversation Professor Ljubomir Tadic was

20     present, too, because he came from Sarajevo.  He was more familiar with

21     the situation there and -- so there was this conversation and Cosic said

22     what he had to say because we Serbs, after all -- well, at the time they

23     claimed amongst the Sarajevo public that all of this came from Belgrade

24     through -- well, and so on and so forth.

25             But he energetically denied that and now I, to the best of my

Page 44901

 1     knowledge, think that this is something that really cannot be linked to

 2     him as a person and to all the work that he authored.  I don't know if

 3     you're understanding what I'm saying.

 4        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Matovic.  I'm understanding perfectly and you've

 5     answered my question and clarified what you said yesterday.

 6             Now, I just want to turn to specifically some things you said in

 7     your statement.  Now, if I understand your written statement correctly,

 8     your evidence as regards Srebrenica, your evidence is that the mass

 9     execution in July 1995 of over 7.000 Bosnian men and boys by the armed

10     forces of Republika Srpska was preplanned, preplanned - because that's

11     what we take from your statement - preplanned in an international

12     conspiracy involving German officers -- pardon me, American and German

13     officers and politicians with whom the VRS were in contact.  That's what

14     you said in your statement.  Is that right?

15        A.   First of all, I was either under the influence of some kind of

16     drugs or drink.  I don't drink as a rule, but something like that.

17     Really, I kindly ask you to read that out to me.  I did not read my

18     statement after I gave it and I cannot believe that.  I mean, really.

19             I crossed the Drina and I'm rushing from Zvornik to find out and

20     to inform my bosses, my employers, about what was going on there.  The

21     only thing I was told was that in Srebrenica, it seems that some old

22     woman, somebody unofficially said that to me, I mean the people who were

23     far away from Srebrenica, even Han Pijesak and so on and so forth --

24     well, yes.  Will that do?  Would that be enough for you?

25        Q.   Well, what I'll do is I'll -- I'll do what you asked and I'll

Page 44902

 1     read you what your statement says.  All right.  And --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Let's upload the statement.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't have the exhibit number.  It was 1D09095.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Exhibit D4184.

 5             THE ACCUSED:  Could the witness have hard copy, please.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We'll see.  It's very short.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  And --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Registry can print out the B/C/S version.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes.  And for the B/C/S version we should go over

10     to page 2.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Sir, we'll print out your statement in hard copy.

12     Bear with us a minute.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Thank you very much.

14             MS. EDGERTON:

15        Q.   Mr. Matovic, I think to see what I put to you, I think you need

16     to look at the bottom of the first paragraph on page 2.

17             And I'll read it out so that perhaps you can find it a bit more

18     easily, and this is about your meeting with Nadja.

19             Nadja, you said, told you about the danger posed by -- Nadja --

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   She told you about "the danger posed by NATO 'hawks' grouped

22     around some American and German officers and individual politicians" --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Could we please have the exact place in B/C/S.

24     Thank you.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will try to answer if I

Page 44903

 1     understood you correctly now.  Nada was not --

 2             MS. EDGERTON:

 3        Q.   Could I --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Wait for the question.  It's page 2

 5     in English.

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I beg your pardon.  I do apologise.

 7             MS. EDGERTON:  And, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to find the exact

 8     page in Srpski -- or the exact line reference in Srpski for the

 9     interpreters.  If you could just give me a moment.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it's the bottom part of the first paragraph.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, I think it's the -- perhaps the fifth or

12     sixth line up from the bottom of the first paragraph.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I see it.  Fifth line from the -- yes, there,

14     in inverted commas.  Why don't you read out from an earlier part so that

15     the witness can understand.  But I leave it to you.

16             Mr. Matovic, did you find the passage?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I found it.

18             "From Han Pijesak he went to Pale," is that the beginning of the

19     paragraph?

20             MS. EDGERTON:  I don't think he's found it --

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I be of assistance.  The

22     previous paragraph, Nadja said to him further on --

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This other paragraph, Nadja -- oh,

24     yes, yes, sorry.

25             "Nadja also said to him -- told him of the danger posed by the

Page 44904

 1     NATO 'hawks' grouped around some American and German officers and

 2     individual politicians who were regularly in touch through several

 3     intelligence agencies with a number of VRS officers.  She also warned him

 4     that preparations were being made for mass killings of Muslims,

 5     especially civilians, to serve" -- now this is what I point out -- so

 6     this is a sentence depending on its second clause, so to speak, "to serve

 7     as a justification for the already planned NATO operation to attack

 8     Republika Srpska."

 9             So the first part of the sentence, its beginning -- well, I mean

10     unless you read the entire sentence.  Nadja's brief information was that.

11     It was a warning, it was an appeal, not to go into -- well, during the

12     conflict things did happen, I can tell you specifically what and where,

13     so that -- not to do anything that the "hawks" and NATO would use in

14     order to bomb Republika Srpska.  I don't know if I was clear and I don't

15     know if this would suffice for your purposes.

16             MS. EDGERTON:

17        Q.   Well, it doesn't seem like when you gave your statement you were

18     clear because this statement alleges that the mass executions at

19     Srebrenica by the Bosnian Serb military were preplanned, preplanned, in a

20     conspiracy involving the Americans and the Germans.  And that the VRS

21     seems to have been aware of it?

22        A.   May I answer by reminding you of what I said yesterday.  The

23     warning that she brought was that now the greatest danger for the Serbs

24     is the revanchism of our traditional enemy, Germany; namely, after the

25     Muslim offensive failed, it was abating by then and it did not yield the

Page 44905

 1     results that they had promised their financiers and weapons donors, there

 2     was a danger of new provocations from the Muslim side.  If they manage to

 3     stage some kind of revenge or anything that the Serbs would carry out,

 4     then, then, that would serve their purposes even more because this would

 5     be a justification for NATO to carry out bombing if the Serb forces bomb

 6     or in any other way imperil -- I don't know if the interpreters are going

 7     to understand this word of ours, that is frail people, frail people, that

 8     is to say, women, children, old men.  And later on, that is what was

 9     being done on the Serb side by way of a reaction.  Could you please

10     explain these details to me.  I mean, I'm looking at this and -- yes --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Matovic -- Mr. Matovic, it's me.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  I'm asking you, Mr. Matovic, take a look at the last

14     sentence in the first paragraph.  I will read it out to you again:

15             "She also warned him," "him" being you, "that preparations were

16     being made for mass killings of Muslims ..."

17             You said here that prepare -- she said to you "that preparations

18     were being made for mass killings ..." so this is a wrong formulation

19     according to your words right now, according to your explanation?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I do apologise.  I didn't want

21     to interrupt you.  In the version that I've been given, I don't seem to

22     be able to find this --

23             THE ACCUSED:  Excellencies, problem is with the translation.

24     Probably for the --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 44906

 1             I would ask the interpreters to interpret as they are hearing,

 2     not according to this English version.  Could you read out the last

 3     sentence in the above -- in the first paragraph, after the "NATO

 4     'hawks' ..."

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Hawks?  Oh, yes, the next sentence,

 6     right?  "He was with Nadja very briefly" --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, so I repeat this.  Right?

 9             "She also said to him that Alija Izetbegovic also gave approval

10     to take -- to have Srebrenica taken by the VRS and that to that end

11     Naser Oric received orders that" --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Could you take a look at the

13     monitor.  Our usher will indicate with a cursor.  Do you see the sentence

14     here on the monitor, "Nadja"?

15             THE ACCUSED:  Excellency, he just started to read this.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, could you read out from there.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I see it now.

18             "Nadja further on said to him that there is a danger of, as she

19     said, certain politicians -- politicians" --

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] You skipped a line, you skipped a

21     line, I beg your pardon.  A line was skipped.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "Nadja further on said to him that

23     there was a danger of, as she said, hawks in NATO gathered around part of

24     American and German officers and certain politicians and who are in

25     constant contact through a few intelligence services with a certain

Page 44907

 1     number of VRS officers, and that what is being prepared is a more massive

 2     suffering of the Muslim population, especially civilians, so that that

 3     would be a justification for the already-planned operation of NATO to

 4     attack Republika Srpska."

 5             Now, do you want me to explain this yet again, this sentence?

 6     Would you want me to analyse the essence of this sentence in my view --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a minute, Mr. Matovic.  Wait for the question.

 8     Thank you for your reading.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very well.

10                           [Trial Chamber confers]

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Maybe we could collapse the English version so

12     that if Mr. Matovic has to look back to his statement it will be clearer

13     to him.

14        Q.   So, Mr. Matovic --

15        A.   Yes.

16        Q.   -- there was no conspiracy - that's what you're telling us?

17        A.   I don't understand.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Did he say ever there was a conspiracy?

19             MS. EDGERTON:  No, that was my question to him, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

21             MS. EDGERTON:

22        Q.   Mr. Matovic, do you accept, then, that in July 1995, members of

23     the Bosnian Serb Army and the Bosnian Serb police executed more than

24     7.000 Bosnian men and boys?  Do you accept that?  That's true, isn't it?

25        A.   Well, I never came across such suggestive, leading questions.  If

Page 44908

 1     the point of Nadja's arrival and my conversation with her and -- I mean,

 2     I have this experience as a journalist when I receive information, the

 3     most important thing for me is whether the person involved is

 4     well-intentioned, competent.  I would have had further questions, but I

 5     didn't put any questions to her.  She saw the expression on my face when

 6     she started talking about what was going on in NATO, new attacks,

 7     et cetera.  She probably saw the look on my face and then expanded this

 8     sentence.  She did not ask me about the number of casualties --

 9        Q.   No -- no --

10        A.   -- and whether there were any conflicts and I did not know.  I

11     came from the other side of the Drina River --

12        Q.   Mr. Matovic, now, now, almost 20 years after the fact, do you

13     accept that Bosnian Serb military and police perpetrated the mass

14     executions of over 7.000 Bosnian men and boys in Srebrenica in July 1995?

15     Do you accept that now as true?

16        A.   I accept, but not with a yes or no.  I accept it with a short

17     explanation, if you would allow me just two sentences in reply.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Please carry on, Mr. Matovic.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] To this day, many things remain

20     unclear to me, although I have spent perhaps more time there than most

21     Yugoslav journalists and politicians and have spent a lot of my time

22     trying to explain to others the gist of this conflict.  And still today

23     my colleagues, journalists, reporters, approach me asking for a briefing,

24     for an explanation, but still some essential things remain unclear to me.

25             One of the most unclear things to me is how a small town such as

Page 44909

 1     Srebrenica which, statistically, according to censuses had 8- to

 2     10.000 population and 300 houses.  Who are the 7.000 men, fighting men,

 3     who came there and who was executed?  I know the birth-rate used as a

 4     policy that they had taken over from the Albanians --

 5        Q.   Mr. Matovic --

 6        A.   -- the elevated birth-rates that are the strongest weapon against

 7     Europeans --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just let him continue --

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Apologies, Your Honour.

10             JUDGE KWON:  -- and see how far he goes.

11             MS. EDGERTON:  Fine.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Matovic.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] So for me to answer such questions

14     from someone who's coming from Belgrade to receive a message and for that

15     person to communicate to Nadja because even with my close friends who

16     share my views and opinions about the situation in the world and

17     especially on the borders of our country -- I mean, what kind of

18     fighting -- I was even told that there was not much fighting in Potocari,

19     that the battalion had pulled out and the civilians followed the

20     battalion because they had been promised asylum and employment in the

21     United States, in Europe, et cetera; whereas the army was there at first,

22     and the first one to leave was Naser Oric - I don't know if that's in my

23     statement - and he was followed by other military able-bodied men who

24     headed for Zepa and other enclaves under their control, their bases.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember the question, Mr. Matovic?  So your

Page 44910

 1     answer is:  Yes?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Did I convey to Nadja or anyone

 3     else that the Serbs had killed there 7.000 Muslims?  I hear such a round

 4     figure for the first time.  Later on, there were claims from the Muslim

 5     side to that effect, but I learned about it gradually more from the media

 6     than directly, although I continued visiting Republika Srpska --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  The question was:  As you sit here now today, do you

 8     accept that about 7.000 Muslims were killed?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot accept something,

10     especially not in the form of my statement, something that I don't know

11     about.  The only thing I do know is that from all theatres of war in

12     Yugoslavia at that time, in Croatia, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, in Kosovo and

13     Metohija later, every party to that war tended to maximise its losses,

14     the civilians who were killed, unlike some previous wars where commands

15     used to minimise their losses.  In this war, every side --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Matovic --

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- exaggerated the numbers of

18     casualties and dead.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I think you answered the question, but before

20     Ms. Edgerton continues.

21             Mr. Robinson, having seen such a discrepancy between the original

22     and English translation, I can't see how Ms. Edgerton can continue her

23     cross-examination.  I'm not sure whether the other part -- the

24     translations of other parts are correct.  So I would like to first ask

25     who prepared this, who translated?

Page 44911

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  The Registry's language section.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Probably I would ask the witness to tell us live,

 3     from the beginning till the end, about his contact with Nadja.  How you

 4     came to meet her and what you talked -- the conversation with her and

 5     what you did in Han Pijesak.  Could you tell us, as far as you remember.

 6     Yes.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In Han Pijesak with Nadja -- no.  I

 8     met with her in Zvornik --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Let me ask you then.  So could you explain to us how

10     you came to meet Nadja first?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I noticed her because, you must

12     understand, I was much younger then.  I noticed her in the entourage of

13     General Gallois, who travelled to Romania rather often in that period,

14     and for various reasons and various errands he often stopped by in

15     Belgrade.  He would call us in advance from Bucharest or Timisoara.  But

16     you understand I'm not an investigator or a prosecutor, and I didn't know

17     that I would have to testify about this later.  But he asked mostly for

18     books, materials, our information that we had about the developments in

19     our state, in our country as it was then, and our current Western

20     neighbours, former Yugoslav republics --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Let me help you.  Did Mr. Bulatovic ask you to meet

22     Nadja?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, he didn't ask for that.

24     Officially I think he was even on vacation, and when that meeting was

25     held, he said I should go because I know the situation very well, whereas

Page 44912

 1     he was a Montenegrin who was not really involved in that, not well

 2     informed.  He learned more later but not at that time.  I don't even know

 3     what the phrasing was.  He was simply looking for a person who was not

 4     too busy and he said it would be good if I could go.

 5             You know, July is a time when people go on holiday, and at that

 6     time I was still able to go on holiday with my family.  I think you

 7     understand what I'm talking about.  So I didn't really feel like going to

 8     Srebrenica; I wasn't keen on it.  I had things to do with my family, but

 9     out of the three of them I was the least busy and that's why I accepted.

10     There were no orders involved or it was not interference, and as far as I

11     remember, he told me:  It would be good if you, Vlada, could go because

12     you know the people, you know the situation --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             THE ACCUSED:  Excellency, if I may --

16             JUDGE KWON:  No, just a second.

17             We'll see how this witness can answer this question and see --

18     we'll consider whether this witness should be led live from the outset.

19             Mr. Matovic, did you meet Nadja at the Vidikovac restaurant?  Do

20     you remember the meeting?

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, on the terrace of that

22     motel called Vidikovac, overlooking the lake.

23             JUDGE KWON:  So could you begin your story from there.  What did

24     you talk about with Nadja?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There's no story.  I was not in any

Page 44913

 1     kind of position to consider with her --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  My apologies -- no --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and deliberate --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  No, it's my mistake.  Could you tell us what you

 5     heard from Nadja at that restaurant?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that in this statement,

 7     although I can't read it all now, it is described clearly --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  No, just a second --

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- she started saying things that

10     were --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Without relying on your statement, could you tell us

12     as far as you remember what you heard from Nadja at that restaurant?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Encounters with persons of that

14     kind - because she was not a politician or a military strategist, just as

15     I was not - from my personal experience, both as a journalist and later

16     from working in the office of the president, was as follows.  Ultimately

17     an impression is created, although things got very confused, that there

18     is something that I should convey.  She told me exactly what is said in

19     this statement --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- I don't know if there is a

22     translation issue --

23             JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ...

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but I can tell you, I can repeat

25     what she said.

Page 44914

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Edgerton, did you want to say something?

 4             MS. EDGERTON:  That he was reading his statement.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE ACCUSED:  But, Excellencies, I would like you --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Given that his statement is very short, I think he

 8     should be led live.

 9             THE ACCUSED:  Excellencies, I would like you to see the last

10     sentence that you didn't get translation, since you have been conferring.

11     He can repeat what she said.

12             JUDGE KWON:  He's reading his statement.  Unfortunately, the

13     Chamber is not satisfied that this statement should be admitted into

14     evidence pursuant to Rule 92 ter.  I will consult my colleagues.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, could the witness be excused for a moment.

17             Mr. Matovic, if you could excuse yourself for a moment.

18                           [The witness stands down]

19             JUDGE KWON:  In light of the discrepancy, first, between the

20     original and the English translation and, secondly, his statement and his

21     oral testimony, the Chamber is of the view it is fair enough to -- for

22     the witness to be led live, if Mr. Karadzic is to call him as his

23     witness.  But if he wishes, in light of these circumstances, he may

24     reschedule his evidence later on if he so wishes.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think that -- because this

Page 44915

 1     witness is old and it's very difficult for him to make this trip, we'll

 2     just go ahead and lead his evidence live and we'll just try to settle the

 3     bill with you later as to how the hours would be allocated for that.

 4             JUDGE MORRISON:  But, Mr. Robinson, isn't the real difficulty

 5     going to be if this witness is -- he's an elderly gentleman, he's trying

 6     to recall things that happened 20 years ago, he seems to be having

 7     difficulty remembering independent of the statement.  If he's not going

 8     to be using the statement as it is, and it seems he can't because of the

 9     translation issues, in reality is this something you want to advise

10     Dr. Karadzic -- have five minutes to advise Dr. Karadzic on as to whether

11     or not there is any realistic benefit to the Defence in continuing with

12     this witness as matters stand?

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, it's always good to consider things, but

14     frankly, this witness is here because he met Dr. Karadzic in July 1995

15     and says Dr. Karadzic didn't have very good information about Srebrenica.

16     So I think we could lead that part of the evidence live and Ms. Edgerton

17     can deal with the rest of it as far as I'm concerned.  But we can discuss

18     that and see if that's what Dr. Karadzic wants to do.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any observation, Ms. Edgerton?

20             MR. TIEGER:  If I can -- if I may just note, Mr. President, I

21     think Mr. Robinson attempted to put a kind of marker down which I can't

22     imagine the Court shares, and that is "we'll settle the bill later," as

23     if this is somehow the Chamber's responsibility.  So I don't think that

24     should be entered into the record as if some kind of concord was struck

25     between Mr. Robinson and the Chamber and it will be thrashed out later.

Page 44916

 1     I don't think that's the Court's intention at all.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No.

 3             THE ACCUSED:  Could I ask --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to --

 5             THE ACCUSED:  Could I ask about -- could the general questions

 6     about first and second paragraph be admitted, not to be repeated?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 8             MS. EDGERTON:  No, the witness said:  I didn't read my statement

 9     after my gave it.  So no, under no circumstances, I would think.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like us to rise for some time to discuss

11     it with Mr. Karadzic?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, that would be good.  If we

13     could take a five-minute recess.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll resume at 10.00.

15                           --- Break taken at 9.53 a.m.

16                           --- On resuming at 10.02 a.m.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic or Mr. Robinson.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, we will make our best effort

19     to lead the witness live at this time.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  So what we are going to do is to vacate

21     the admission of his statement pursuant to 92 ter.  So we'll vacate the

22     number as well, but what remains will remain on the transcript and we'll

23     hear the witness live.  Very well.

24             Shall we bring in the witness.

25                           [The witness takes the stand]

Page 44917

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning again, Mr. Matovic.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  There is an issue with translation and something

 4     else, so we -- the Chamber has decided to hear your evidence orally

 5     instead of through your written statement.  So Mr. Karadzic will ask you

 6     questions.  Do you follow?  Do you understand that?

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I do.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please bear in mind just one thing.  Because

 9     Mr. Karadzic and you are speaking the same language, you need to put a

10     pause between the question and answer.  Therefore, please wait for some

11     time after he posed his question before you start your answer.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

16     morning to everybody.

17                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

18        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Matovic.

19        A.   Good morning, Mr. Karadzic.

20        Q.   This was too fast.  Please make a longer pause.

21             Mr. Matovic, let's forget about any statements.  Could you please

22     tell us whether you met me in July 1995?

23        A.   In July 1995, whether I met you at all?

24        Q.   Were you in my office in July 1995?

25        A.   Yes.

Page 44918

 1        Q.   Can you remember what we discussed at that time?

 2        A.   Let me just say one thing, I met you when I was pressed for time,

 3     and it was on two occasions.  The first time was around Srebrenica,

 4     around that operation, and later it was around the events in the

 5     Republic of Croatia and Republika Srpska.  We met twice briefly.  The

 6     first time with regard to Srebrenica and I told you that -- or rather, I

 7     don't remember whether I told you about a link that existed between the

 8     two of us.  I don't know whether I explained to you who that was.  I told

 9     you that I had information.  I'm confused that -- with certain things.  I

10     don't know whether some of the text for my future books have been

11     preserved -- hold on, hold on, let me just tell you this.  I have never

12     told anybody about that meeting with Nadja.  I never said to anybody

13     whether she asked me about war operations.  I don't know where she had

14     come from.  I never asked her in our relations.  It is not polite.  Any

15     subsequent question questions the credibility of that person if you speak

16     about their intentions.

17        Q.   Mr. Matovic, let's ignore that.  The statement is off the table.

18     Can you remember what the two of us discussed and did you establish what

19     I knew?  Did I establish what you knew about Srebrenica?

20        A.   I was not the one who could inform you because I did not have any

21     information about these events.  I only told you that we had a benevolent

22     source and that we received information from that source that there had

23     been a breakup in NATO, that there had been a rift in NATO, and that

24     after a lull and after the end of the Muslim offensive, some of the

25     representatives said that the war was futile and that the Serbs were

Page 44919

 1     already holding over 70 per cent of the territory.  But it was not what I

 2     heard from Nadja.  Nadja told me what I said in my written statement.

 3     There was rift in the top echelons of NATO, there were divisions into

 4     hawks and pigeons, i.e., those who were in favour for those -- for the

 5     continuation of the war and -- on the one hand and the others who didn't

 6     want a war, who did not want to go on paying for those senseless wars.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  When it comes to the events in Srebrenica, did you

 8     ask me anything and how much I knew about all that?

 9        A.   I expected from you to tell me because I was a journalist, I had

10     not returned to you with her message because as a journalist that would

11     have seemed that I had been there, and at the same time I did not

12     document any of that because my conversation with her, all of the

13     information that I received from her, I knew that she had brought that

14     information from either The Hague or Brussels.  I don't know where from.

15     And the message was just a warning and an appeal --

16        Q.   Thank you.

17        A.   She wanted to prevent us from falling into a trap.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Thank you.  Let's ignore Nadja.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We can continue.

20             MS. EDGERTON:  Yes, Your Honour.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             Please continue.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Mr. Matovic, let's not mention Nadja at all.  What did the two of

25     us discuss?  Did you ask me anything?  Did you inform me about anything?

Page 44920

 1     What did I ask you?

 2        A.   What I remember --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  [Previous translation continues] ...

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- from that conversation --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

 6             MS. EDGERTON:  With respect, Your Honour, Dr. Karadzic should be

 7     particularly careful in formulating his questions for this question,

 8     given what's gone on previously, and he should refrain from piling it on,

 9     as he's been doing, in a leading manner.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Let me help you.  Mr. Matovic, do you remember

11     meeting Mr. Karadzic in July 1995?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember -- may I continue?

13             JUDGE KWON:  My question was whether you remembered having met

14     Mr. Karadzic in July 1995.  The answer could be either yes or no.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember how many times you met Mr. Karadzic

17     in July 1995.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I remember that meeting and an

19     attempt to meet him.  I had some letters to give him but I didn't meet

20     with him, but with his clerk in the offices of the Presidency of the

21     Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.  He was not there, nobody knew when he

22     was coming back.  I had some letters which I left with his secretary,

23     like many times before.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So you met once in July 1995 Mr. Karadzic?

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] One correction, please.  I no

Page 44921

 1     longer know what is a statement, what is a translated statement.  I only

 2     know that we met twice, but I don't know whether that meeting was in

 3     July.  I arrived with similar information, and the second time I met with

 4     Nadja who gave me information -- but I don't know whether that was in

 5     July or August.  I really can't remember as I sit here today.  I don't

 6     know whether it was towards the end of July.  I can't remember when I

 7     shared with him the information about the Republic of Serbian Krajina and

 8     the preparations for that situation over there.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  So when you met Mr. Karadzic in July 1995, what did

10     you discuss with Mr. Karadzic at the time?  Could you tell us as far as

11     you remember?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of which I remember was him

13     talking about reliability.  His main source of information was CNN.  He

14     asked me whether I knew anything about comments in the printed press

15     because I was a journalist for "Politika" for a while and I followed wars

16     and similar things.  We exchanged opinions about that; however, I had

17     arrived in his office to ask him what he knew about all that and whether

18     he could inform those people and ask them what was correct, whether a war

19     had indeed started, what its intensity was and so on and so forth.  As

20     far as I can remember, he told me that he was also told just like I was.

21     The feedback that I received - and let me tell you, this is a bit morbid,

22     a bit banal - that they were aware of an old woman who was a victim, but

23     nobody spoke about 7.000 soldiers who were killed.  That was unheard of,

24     and so on and so forth.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

Page 44922

 1             Back to you, Mr. Karadzic.  You'll be better off if you ask one

 2     question at one time.  Please continue.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Did we discuss some prisoners at the time during that meeting?

 6        A.   As far as I can remember, much, much later there were talks about

 7     prisoners, and especially about those prisoners when President Cosic

 8     invited the Nobel Prize winner Elie Wiesel came to visit Belgrade, it was

 9     a humanitarian visit, and he wanted to receive information about camps

10     where Muslims were detained in Bosnia and Herzegovina.  Then I visited

11     you again.  You told me what you did and I conveyed that message to

12     Mr. Wiesel.  I said:  Sir, where you think those camps are and if you

13     have that information from Belgrade, you will not have any obstacles from

14     Belgrade.  I believe that his escorts can confirm that.  Just a moment,

15     please.  There were helicopters, there were APCs where he went, and the

16     rule was never to agree things well in advance, but on that morning when

17     I arrived, then he would tell me where we were going and then I would

18     take him there.  There was fighting around most of the camps, but I'm

19     telling you -- did you understand me?  Are you happy with my answer?

20        Q.   Thank you.

21        A.   Then we talked and you said that everything would be open to him.

22     Of course, one had to look at the situation, Manjaca, around Gorazde,

23     Foca, and Banja Luka, to see whether it was safe to go to those places.

24        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us whether it transpired that I

25     was well informed about the events that took place in Srebrenica in

Page 44923

 1     July 1995?  When we met, did you gain the impression --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer the question, yes.

 3             MS. EDGERTON:  This is completely leading and inappropriate,

 4     Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Can you reformulate your question.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, I can.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Matovic, how well informed was I about the events in

 9     Srebrenica?

10        A.   I repeat, when somebody says that they are informed mostly

11     through CNN -- and as a professional I don't have anything against them,

12     I follow CNN as well.  However, if one has only one source of information

13     and if you told me one sentence which I can only paraphrase and you said

14     that you knew that there was an operation going on and that I could not

15     take more information to Belgrade about the essence of those things and

16     so on and so forth.  And that's why at the end of that journey I myself

17     tried to go there to get to Bratunac, to General Mladic, who was going to

18     tell me perhaps -- and the others generals that I found in Han Pijesak,

19     they were the logistics command and they claimed that they didn't know

20     anything.  And when I told them what was being written and what we saw on

21     television, for example, they said that they didn't know anything about

22     that, that they couldn't believe that.  By way of illustration, I'm

23     telling you this to illustrate the tone of that conversation.  So when I

24     brought those letters, I suppose that I brought some fresher information

25     that we had received from other sides.  I can't remember that for a fact.

Page 44924

 1     In this court, there were trials against the French, the Gaullis [phoen],

 2     who communicated with our military representatives and who provided them

 3     with information that you're asking me to give you today.  I was not a

 4     military --

 5        Q.   Can you please explain, you said that:  "... I could not take to

 6     Belgrade information."  Why you couldn't take any information from me to

 7     Belgrade?

 8        A.   Because, and this is exactly what I told them, that you were not

 9     well-informed or that you don't have enough information, and as far as I

10     can remember, there is quite a distance between Srebrenica and Pale, and

11     those formations passed through that then and before that, and it was not

12     safe to go from Srebrenica to Pale.  So I don't know when was it that

13     your security would have allowed you to go there because I myself was

14     warned, and it did happen to me, albeit later, when I was in the car with

15     your director of the state bank, we passed by a Muslim column which was

16     resting there.  So I'm sure that they would not have allowed you to put

17     yourself in such situation.

18        Q.   Thank you.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

20     Mr. Matovic.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

22                           Cross-examination by Ms. Edgerton: [Continued]

23        Q.   Mr. Matovic, when you met Dr. Karadzic and had a discussion with

24     him, he didn't tell you anything about the information he was receiving

25     about what was going on in Srebrenica from his soldiers, their

Page 44925

 1     commanders, his police, their commanders, members of the diaspora, the

 2     Serbian diaspora, and his local political officials.  He didn't tell you

 3     anything about all the information he was receiving from them, did he?

 4        A.   Would you accept my attempt?  I don't know how much you know

 5     about this.  May I respond in a journalistic way, which is closer to me?

 6     Would that suit you?

 7        Q.   Mr. Matovic --

 8        A.   Yes?

 9        Q.   -- I specifically formulated the question so you could answer it

10     actually quite easily rather than in a journalistic way.  My question

11     was:  He didn't tell you anything about all the other information he was

12     receiving, did he?  You could answer yes or no.

13        A.   Well, I cannot.  Quite simply, I didn't put questions like that

14     to him.  That's what I'm trying to tell you.  If you have the patience --

15     as a reader of newspapers, you will understand.  Am I allowed to answer

16     in a specific, telling way?

17             JUDGE KWON:  Could you be brief?

18             Let's hear him, yes.

19             Be brief, Mr. Matovic.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll try to be as succinct as

21     possible.

22             I was a journalist for 40 years and then I lectured at the

23     institute of journalism.  I gave lectures to foreign students about the

24     selection of information.  I had surprising news from Nadja, front-page

25     news.  But when news is front-page news, then it has to be -- well, this

Page 44926

 1     time I was not a journalist.  I was there as a rapporteur for the people

 2     who sent me there, to bring some news.  And if I have an explanation --

 3     now, whether I'm going to manage for this knowledge to be front-page

 4     news, all of it, or will something have to go to the other pages.  But

 5     how could I when Mr. Karadzic said to me that he also, concerning the

 6     proportions of the conflict and this operation, whether it was a war

 7     operation or not, he said that at that point in time he did not know

 8     that, that he was not informed.

 9             I mean this is a set of circumstances and a person has to respond

10     quickly, and one does not have the time -- well, the president of the

11     republic -- after all, I was supposed to understand whether this

12     information that I received -- whether I could have more details.  I

13     could -- I did not have the time to go to the front line, but also I was

14     advised by the logistics command in Han Pijesak not to go.  But not

15     because of the operations but because the commander of the army,

16     General Mladic, was constantly from Bijeljina, Zepa, this was war time,

17     inaccessible.  Now, whether they said this to me or not -- I mean, he had

18     a helicopter.  He had everything that was necessary.  It was hard --

19     Well, that is what he advised me and --

20             MS. EDGERTON:

21        Q.   Mr. Matovic?

22        A.   Yes?

23        Q.   So I take it from what you're saying that the answer to my

24     question is:  No, Dr. Karadzic didn't tell you anything about the

25     information he was getting from other sources; right?

Page 44927

 1        A.   Yes, I cannot.  Because I did not have the time to comment upon

 2     the situation at the front line.  I asked him whether he knew what the

 3     intensity was.  As for what Nadja said to me, could -- could I enrich

 4     that with some new knowledge?  And he said no because he himself was

 5     insufficiently informed and did not know when he would receive relevant

 6     information.

 7        Q.   All right --

 8        A.   And I was in a hurry and -- yes?  Yes, please go ahead and sorry.

 9             MS. EDGERTON:  Your Honours, I note the time.  If you'd like to

10     take a break now, it would probably take me about seven minutes after we

11     resume again.  I could probably make things even shorter after a half an

12     hour's reflection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll take a break for half an hour.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.31 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 11.03 a.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Edgerton.

17             MS. EDGERTON:  Thank you, Your Honours.  On reflection, I have no

18     further questions of Mr. Matovic.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Ms. Edgerton.

20             Do you have any re-examination?

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, Excellency.  Thank you.

22                           [Trial Chamber confers]

23             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Matovic, before we broke you said when you met

24     Mr. Karadzic you said, I quote:

25             "This time I was not a journalist.  I was there as a rapporteur

Page 44928

 1     for the people who sent me there to bring some news."

 2             Could you clarify what you meant by this?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I come from a profession that

 4     has its rules where I worked for 40 years, and then after a few months I

 5     found myself in the complete opposite in terms of the freedom of

 6     behaviour, activity, et cetera, that kind of profession, where other

 7     rules were in force.  When I said that, that's what I meant.  Also, there

 8     are some books, some people from Belgrade held it against me, colleagues,

 9     friends, said that while I was an official I was not open at all.  And

10     then we clarified the matter and they publicly apologised.  From one

11     profession I found myself in a completely different one that has its own

12     rules.

13             What is communicated to me -- I mean, it's not for me if an

14     interlocutor communicates some information to me, and especially if they

15     do not communicate some information to me, it's not for me to comment

16     upon anything with the bearer of such information.  So that's the only

17     thing I meant.  Her job was to bring information; my job was to convey

18     information.  And at that moment when I went to Mr. Karadzic and all

19     that, for me -- after all, it was the journalist in me that surfaced.  It

20     was a sensational information, the content of that information, and so I

21     tried with the two most competent persons to -- well, just as I did,

22     contrary to the interests of the authorities, I was supposed to talk to

23     Alija Izetbegovic as well, but I refused that because of certain

24     convictions of my own, journalistic convictions.  And now, when I was a

25     civil servant working for the state, I got this sensational news, and for

Page 44929

 1     them it would be a sensation, too, but without anything to corroborate

 2     it.  But I didn't have time then to go to Srebrenica or anywhere else.  I

 3     just went to the top place to confirm or deny that.

 4             Quite simply, I was told what I was told, and as for the

 5     prosecutor's office and everyone else, I do apologise to all of you.

 6     It's not only against the moral, professional, and other rules in terms

 7     of what I did beforehand.  But I think that anywhere, in any profession,

 8     even the most special police -- after all, people have to have certain

 9     boundaries and see how they're going to behave to who.  I mean, you can

10     treat a certain person as the president of the republic or not, but I

11     have to because at that moment he is officially president of the

12     republic.  And I cannot ask the president of the republic:  Tell me, how

13     many dead are there down there, and so on?  That's not my role, that's

14     not my function, and professionally that was not allowed.  At that

15     place -- I mean there -- it's not that I'm trying to glorify the

16     journalist professional in ethical terms or whatever, but there are some

17     rules of conduct or rules of the game, if you will.

18             So I cannot answer that, what it was that we talked about.  We

19     talked about -- I mean, I asked him whether he knew what the message was

20     that was conveyed to me, whether approximately you see some looming

21     danger, threat, not to play into the hands of the other side and so on

22     and so forth.  And his answer was that, unfortunately, he does not have

23     enough, especially from all sides, and even there during the operations

24     that he would follow, and that's how it all ended.

25             JUDGE KWON:  When you met Mr. Karadzic, were you still working at

Page 44930

 1     the Presidency of Yugoslavia?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Oh, of course.  Actually, in a way

 3     I was working, but I did not have a specific post.  I was an official at

 4     large, if you will.  It was, say, adviser for extraordinary situations.

 5     I did not have the post and office that I had when I was adviser to the

 6     president of the republic, but the Ministry of Defence then and later on

 7     during the war operations, NATO, that was called responding to foreign

 8     hostile propaganda.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

10             This is a question for the parties:  Is the meeting of this

11     witness with Mr. Karadzic reflected in his agenda?  What -- if the

12     parties could remind me of the date.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, the meeting is not reflected in the

14     agenda.

15             MS. EDGERTON:  That's correct, it is not.  And we don't have a

16     date --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well --

18             MS. EDGERTON:  -- of this meeting.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

20             Mr. Matovic, that concludes your evidence.  On behalf of this

21     Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give

22     it.  Please have a safe journey back home.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you very much indeed.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25             JUDGE KWON:  Is there any further change to the witness schedule?

Page 44931

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.  The next witness is

 2     Mr. Milincic and he should be here.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  And then after him?

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. Kovacevic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  And then?

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  I don't believe we will reach Mr. Radinkovic, so

 7     then tomorrow we will start with Colonel Blagojevic and General Tolimir.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration,

11     please.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  I would

14     like to add something.  May God help me as I speak.

15                           WITNESS:  MILOS MILINCIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Milincic.  Please be seated and make

18     yourself comfortable.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

21             Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Milincic, I must draw your

22     attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here at the

23     Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to

24     answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from

25     the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate you in a

Page 44932

 1     criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying something

 2     that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or

 3     saying something that might provide evidence that you might have

 4     committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an answer

 5     might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer the

 6     question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel

 7     you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal would

 8     ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would not

 9     be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence, save

10     and except the offence of giving false testimony.

11             Do you understand that, Mr. Milincic?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I understand perfectly.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

14             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

15                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

16        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Professor Milincic.

17        A.   Good day.  Good luck to you and God bless you.

18        Q.   Thank you.  It's going to be very hard for them to interpret

19     that.  It's a very old adage of ours, or rather, it's a verse from

20     Njegos.  I have to ask you something, let us pause between question and

21     answer, and as we utter our sentences, we should try to be as slow as

22     possible so that they would be recorded in the transcript.

23             Could I kindly ask you to give us your name and surname, your

24     father's name, your date and place of birth.

25        A.   Of course.  Milos Milincic, professor of literature, retired.  I

Page 44933

 1     live in Bajinci, in Banja Luka, right now.  The 15th of December, 1942.

 2     I have a family, two children.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Milincic -- Milincic is the right spelling.  Thank

 4     you.

 5             Tell us about your political and professional career.  What were

 6     all the things you did?

 7        A.   I worked as a professor in school.  I taught the Serbian language

 8     and literature.  I was the principal of an elementary school and then a

 9     high school.  And in the elections in 1990, I was elected speaker of the

10     Srbac Assembly according to the will of the citizens and political party.

11     And then I was director of the educational institute in Banja Luka and I

12     retired from there.  As for party and ideological affiliation, I was a

13     member of the League of Communists until 1990, from the time when I did

14     my military service.  And then in 1990 I became a member of the Serb

15     Democratic Party.

16        Q.   Thank you.  During your career, professional and political, were

17     you commended, awarded?  Did you receive any decorations?

18        A.   Yes, as a professor in school I won top prizes in the subject of

19     language because pupils were tested every year in the region of the

20     Krajina, Banja Luka, at the time.  And I also have two decorations,

21     Njegos 1st order and Njegos 2nd order, and I also have some other tokens

22     of recognition, if you will.  I did not mention that the municipality

23     also commended me for taking certain measures in the municipality during

24     the war to preserve peace.

25        Q.   Not taking certain measures to preserve peace, but to preserve

Page 44934

 1     peace; right?

 2        A.   Yes, and to develop the municipality.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us what the ethnic composition was of

 4     your municipality in 1990 and 1991?

 5        A.   Identical, like today and before 1990 -- actually, from 1948

 6     onwards, the first elections held after that war.  91 to 95 per cent of

 7     the Serb municipality and the population is 21.800-something.  This last

 8     sentence showed that the number is a bit less, about 19.000.  So the

 9     ethnic composition of the municipality of Srbac is 95 per cent Serbs.

10        Q.   This decrease, in proportional terms, how is that reflected in

11     terms of the ethnic communities?

12        A.   I understand what you're saying.  In terms of percentage, Serbs,

13     Muslims, Croats, Ruthenians, Czechs, there was a proportional decrease,

14     about a thousand inhabitants less than ten years ago.

15        Q.   Thank you.  Could you please tell us what the name Srbac means

16     and whether we changed it during the war, or rather, when was this name

17     established?

18        A.   Yes, there was some prejudice there and some malicious

19     interpretations in terms of the name Srbac.  I think that some

20     connotations came even from here, that Srbac is a new municipality.  No.

21     Sometime in November, I think, 1933, that is to say, during the

22     Kingdom of Yugoslavia, the minister of the interior of the Kingdom of

23     Yugoslavia made a decision that Bosanski Svinjar -- there were two

24     Svinjars, now there is a new one, Davor.  So Bosnian Svinjar was supposed

25     to be renamed Srbac in 1933.

Page 44935

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Can you just tell the Trial Chamber what that means,

 2     the name of the town?

 3        A.   There are three versions why, in 1933, this name was inaugurated.

 4     The Sava River meanders nearby in the shape of a scythe, so that is what

 5     people thought it meant, but no.  Also it is the Serbs, the ethnic

 6     composition there, and then Serbs, Srbac, so that that led to the name of

 7     Srbac.

 8        Q.   I hope that the transcript, when they listen to all of this,

 9     they're going to put the right names there.  All right.  Can you tell us

10     in terms of politics, which political party did you join in 1990 and why,

11     what led you to join that party?

12        A.   Well, yes.  I worked as a professor in a secondary school.  I

13     taught my students, I taught them literature and language.  I have to say

14     that there were quite a few students from Croatia, from Davor, who

15     crossed the Sava River in boats in order to attend school.  And then when

16     these things happened, when multi-national states started disintegrating,

17     the Soviet Union, Czechoslovakia, as I followed Dedijer's book, his book

18     called "A Contribution to the Biography of Josip Broz Tito," I thought

19     that it was time to identify ourselves culturally, linguistically and

20     ethnically, quite simply that we should not be ashamed and that we should

21     not be afraid of acknowledging this co-existence.  I thought it was time

22     to affirm that which is good for all the ethnic communities.  In that

23     other war in 1941, 1945, in the Srbac municipality, there were never any

24     conflicts, especially not with the Croats.  And I thought that as a

25     humanist I could contribute to the affirmation of all to a maximum

Page 44936

 1     degree.  It was it.  Maybe this was a rather romantic credo that I could

 2     help the development of democracy in that area.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  When did you establish that political party and did I

 4     attend that gathering?

 5        A.   Yes, on the 28th of July, in Srbac, we had an initiative

 6     committee.  I happened to be there -- well, I'm not saying by accident,

 7     but I wanted to observe things and see how things would develop.  And our

 8     priest suggested that I be a member of this initiative committee, and

 9     then people thought:  Well, a humanist, a literate man, not encumbered by

10     this or that, and in that kind of environment, that kind of man was

11     needed.  And that's how it started.  You know, as they say, it's hard for

12     people to let you go once you've joined in.

13             And then I went around, making speeches, and then this ceremony

14     took place in Srbac on the 31st of August, 1990.  On the square in

15     Srbac -- well, the journalists estimated that there were about 10.000

16     people there.  The population of the town of Srbac is 6.000 otherwise.

17     So there were about 10.000 people there.  I spoke there, you spoke there,

18     Vojo Kupresanin spoke there, Zlatko Kelecevic, and we said what the

19     objective was, what the programme of the party was, ecology, to conserve

20     the environment, also to develop these relations of partnership.  I can

21     say that you got quite a bit of applause and I think that I provided that

22     by way of evidence.  I think that you really won over the audience with a

23     single sentence.  Can I say what that was?

24        Q.   Please go ahead.

25        A.   That went on for about two hours and then you spoke and you said

Page 44937

 1     that it is being held against us, the Serb Democratic Party, that we were

 2     too peaceful.  And you quoted a folk epic about Marko Kraljevic and his

 3     mother because he was behaving in strange way, carrying his spear the

 4     other way around, and he said:  If we run into trouble, I can turn the

 5     spear.  And you said that's what we're going to do.  And then the key

 6     sentence that won over the audience, these were ovations:  Some

 7     adventures are advocating peace -- advocating war --

 8             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's correction.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- but they did not ask Serb

10     mothers whether they had children to send to war.  A garden is most

11     beautiful when it is multi-coloured, so do your best in order to have

12     your neighbours live in safety and security so that they do not feel

13     squeezed in as a minority.  That was truly welcomed.

14             I have to say that this campaign was ideological rather than

15     ethnic.  How do I put this?  It was a sort of competition between the

16     former communists and the new national parties.  So it was a clash

17     between the right wing and the left wing.  On ethnic grounds, nobody

18     would have won any votes in Srbac if they said anything bad about Serbs,

19     about Croats, about Muslims.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 1D15612.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   We'll show a video-clip that you announced a moment ago.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D15612.  It should be played from

Page 44938

 1     11.15.

 2                           [Video-clip played]

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Can you tell us what we are looking at?

 5        A.   Yes, that's that famous rally.  It was already dusk.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we rewind to the beginning and

 7     turn the volume up.  The interpreters have a transcript.

 8                           [Video-clip played]

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's the applause I

10     mentioned.

11             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Our enemies are not only those who

12     hate the Serbs.  Our enemies are those who are against democracy, and I

13     can tell you that democracy is threatened these days.  It's threatened

14     not only by those who had been in power until now but" --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Why don't we upload the transcript,

16     English and B/C/S, and then -- unless there's a -- unless Mr. Tieger

17     opposes to that idea.  I don't think there's a point reviewing this image

18     at this condition right now.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, Mr. President.  No, of course I have no

20     objection to that.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we switch to e-court.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  It should be page 2.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show the second page with

24     a passage that begins at 11.15.  If the parties agree, we can tender the

25     entire transcript, of course, but I would like this shown in the

Page 44939

 1     courtroom.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Can you introduce this part of the speech, Professor Milincic?

 4        A.   You concluded that popular gathering and people had perhaps

 5     expected some very rigid positions from you, but after you said that

 6     democracy was threatened on many levels, that many people, some people at

 7     least of adventurous vent who were advocating war, obviously had not

 8     asked Muslims, Serb, and Croat mothers whether they were prepared to

 9     sacrifice their children for war.  And when you said that good

10     neighbourly relations should be fostered, and then came that sentence

11     that I already mentioned, the beautiful sentence, that a garden is most

12     beautiful when it is full of flowers of different colours, and in the

13     same way, people live the best when they are prepared to live together in

14     harmony and in peace.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tender these two pages, with your

16     leave, Your Honours, and the recording.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Do we see a passage relating to garden here?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It could be on the first page or

19     perhaps it was said in my conversations with political representatives --

20             MR. TIEGER:  Wait, wait, wait, wait.

21             JUDGE KWON:  No.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Sorry, there's no point in warning Dr. Karadzic

23     repeatedly --

24             JUDGE KWON:  No.

25             MR. TIEGER:  -- but that's another example.

Page 44940

 1             JUDGE KWON:  During the course of proofing you heard this

 2     video-clip, the audio part of this video, didn't you?  Mr. Karadzic's

 3     speech at that rally?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I participated in the rally just

 5     like Mr. Karadzic, and I have at home the full recording.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, on page 1 in the

 7     passage that begins with 04.59, the last two sentences, it is not a

 8     reference to a garden specifically, but it mentions flourishing --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No --

10             MR. TIEGER:  This --

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It may not have be a garden or

12     perhaps a meadow --

13             JUDGE KWON:  You need to put that to the witness.

14             MR. TIEGER:  I mean, it's -- now we're having the form of

15     Dr. Karadzic testifying and asking the witness to confirm his testimony.

16     It's a continuing pattern.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, I apologise.  That's not the

18     way it is.  We are just looking for this in the transcript.  I'm asking

19     the witness to look at the last -- the penultimate paragraph, in fact,

20     where it says:

21             "The Serbian nation in Bosnia-Herzegovina could have organised

22     themselves into some grumpy and dangerous organisation ..."

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] "The Serbian nation in

24     Bosnia-Herzegovina could have organised themselves into some pugnacious

25     and dangerous organisation, but it did not because Serbian people are

Page 44941

 1     loyal to democracy.  Whenever there was democracy, the Serbian people

 2     flourished.  Of course, other nations flourished as well.  It will be

 3     like that again, if there is democracy and civil peace."

 4             These are the words that persuaded me to be a member of the party

 5     and one of the leaders of the party, these words precisely.  That's how I

 6     understood democracy and our abilities to live in one state with other

 7     nations.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   Can I ask you to pay attention to the passage that begins with

10     3.26, what am I talking about there?

11        A.   It says:

12             "I have to say, the authorities did ask that from other nations

13     as well.  We, the Serbs, did not destroy the monument of Ban Jelacic in

14     Zagreb, the authorities did that.  We do not have any problem with the

15     monument.  They can set it up again if they need it.  It was not we,

16     Serbs, that looked with animosity to our Muslim neighbours when they

17     celebrated Bajram.  On the contrary, we congratulated them on that

18     holiday.  It was not we that prevented their shrines in Hajvatovica and

19     Devojacka Pecina.  We will respect their sanctuaries and visit them as

20     the Muslims respect our monastery Ostrog and visit it.  That is the way

21     one lives in a community and municipality.  There is no reason for anyone

22     to give up anything.  Therefore, we seek to restore everything that makes

23     us a nation:  Our history, our religion, and our customs.  We ask the

24     same for our neighbours, Croats, Muslims, Jews, Romas, and others.  We

25     will not love them more if they give up on themselves.  Let them live

Page 44942

 1     with their full spiritual being.  That way they will be more peaceful as

 2     well and they will be better neighbours to us."

 3             This is required reading for democracy.  I, as a teacher of

 4     literature, realised that this was a dream one should aspire to.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We will admit this -- Mr. Karadzic's speech at the

 6     rally.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number D4185, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Were you an official of the Serbian Democratic Party; where and

11     in which period?

12        A.   From 28th July 1990 until year 2002, I was all the time on

13     various bodies for the Serbian Democratic Party, beginning as president

14     of the Municipal Board of the party in Srbac, and then three terms of

15     office as the member of the republic organisation of the party.

16        Q.   You were on the Main Board three times.  How were you elected?

17        A.   I was nominated by my party unit in Srbac, and then proposals

18     came from all municipalities.  And by secret ballot, because there were a

19     number of candidates on the ticket, I received - let me not say the

20     majority - but a very large number of votes.  I don't know why, is it my

21     personal charm or is it because I'm a teacher of literature, but in any

22     case I was elected.

23        Q.   Did you take part in charting the policies and the political

24     positions of the party during those three terms of office?

25        A.   Yes, one can say that all the time in that period I was in a

Page 44943

 1     position where I could follow the work of the party and convey the

 2     positions of the party to my own municipal unit.  And when the war had

 3     already started, when we had no more electricity, when we were left to

 4     our own devices, your positions and what I learned from you helped me to

 5     be a good leader.

 6        Q.   What's missing from the transcript is that:  When we had no more

 7     electricity or communications.

 8             Could you speak more slowly, please.  While you participated in

 9     charting the policies of the Serbian Democratic Party, did the party ever

10     depart from what you heard at that rally and what attracted you initially

11     to the party?

12        A.   I already told you about what motivated me to become a member of

13     that party.  And then the party platform, as I was studying some

14     materials and looking back at my own diaries and agendas, even in 1990,

15     before the elections, we said that we would be co-operating with all the

16     other parties, on the condition that they don't have the four antis in

17     their programmes.  And that is anti-democracy, anti-Semitism,

18     anti-Serbdom --

19             THE INTERPRETER:  The interpreter missed the fourth one.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That means --

21             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat from the fourth one, fourth anti.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] We said that after the elections we

23     would co-operate and make coalitions with all the parties - Srbac had

24     five of them at the elections - and we conveyed that to the Main Board as

25     our position.  We would co-operate with all the parties that don't have

Page 44944

 1     four antis - anti-democracy, anti-Semitism, anti-Serbdom, and

 2     anti-Yugoslavdom - in their programme.  We thought that we would be

 3     developing Yugoslavia in the spirit of tolerance, unity, and community.

 4     Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Who in your municipality was the most important personality in

 7     power who put into practice the policies of the Serbian Democratic Party?

 8        A.   When we were cut off, when we lost communications, when we didn't

 9     see each other or heard from each other so often anymore, I was at the

10     head of the party, rallying people around me, guiding them to look for a

11     modus vivendi, first as the president of the party and then president of

12     the Municipal Assembly of Srbac for seven years.  I was the one who got

13     all the praise and all the criticism and I survived.

14        Q.   Thank you.  In your work in the authorities in Srbac, did you

15     apply to the greatest possible extent the policies of the Serbian

16     Democratic Party?

17        A.   Once we had won the elections, when the Municipal Assembly of

18     Srbac numbered 60 deputies, from five political parties, the Serbian

19     Democratic Party had won 42 seats out of 60; the Socialist Party, eight;

20     the reformists, six; the SPO, two.  I think that adds up.  Then when we

21     were forming the government, since there was a -- there were some

22     misgivings towards other ideologies, and I was thinking of you when you

23     said that we would do very wisely in Srbac if -- with regard to the party

24     of SDA that had only two seats, it would be very fair, and you even

25     called me to tell me that:  Why don't you give an important position to

Page 44945

 1     the SDA, a position of authority?  I consulted with my associates, with

 2     my co-workers, and there were some frictions, but since there will be

 3     weddings among the Muslim communities it would be good to put one of them

 4     from the SDA, the registrar's office, to give them the position of

 5     vice-president even.  So that's how Halid Hadziselimovic became my

 6     deputy.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  You've just told us that the structure of the

 8     population was the same before the war and after the war.  Where did

 9     Muslims in Srbac live in terms of the urban nucleus and were there any

10     Muslim neighbourhoods on the outskirts of Srbac?

11        A.   Yes, Kobas along the Sava.  There was our own Serbian Kobas,

12     Bosnian Kobas, and there is a Croatian Kobas across the river Sava.  In

13     our Serbian Kobas about 80 families lived there from the beginning of

14     times, as it were.  On one occasion you passed through there as a young

15     man, you told me about that.  You passed through Crna and you wanted to

16     know whether there were such people there.  Some 50 families live in

17     Crna.  And in the town of Srbac itself, there is a certain number of

18     Muslim families as well.  In other words, Muslim families mostly lived in

19     Kobas, in Crna, and in Srbac of course.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Did you, and to what extent, respect their needs,

21     their rights?  Did you take into account all of their demands and

22     requests?  I'm talking about the pre-war period.

23        A.   The principal of the school in Kobas - and let me tell you that

24     the Kobas school is a branch of the Srbac school - his name was

25     Rasin Zukanovic.  He was the principal of that school, for a very good

Page 44946

 1     reason.  Later on, we changed the name of that school in Kobas and we

 2     named it Mehmed Mesa Selimovic instead of a Second World War -- the

 3     central school in Srbac in Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj and the branch school in

 4     Kobas was named Mehmed Mesa Selimovic, who was a great writer and author.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  In that respect, did you know what my position was

 6     and did we talk about that on any occasion?

 7        A.   On one occasion you told me something that surprised me.  You

 8     always wondered whether there were pressures and problems and how people

 9     there behaved, and then I answered:  Well, there are problems everywhere,

10     aren't there?  For some people --

11        Q.   Please slow down.  Your previous answer was totally mis-recorded.

12     Can you please slow down.

13        A.   When you question me about the situation in the municipality and

14     whether there were any pressures put to bear on those people, because

15     there was a war going on, then I told you that there are problems

16     everywhere.  Of course there are mobsters, scavengers of all sorts who do

17     all sorts of things when the night falls.  And then you said:  Let alone

18     those scaven gers and mobsters.  What about Muslims, Ruthenians, Croats

19     and others in Srbac?  And I said:  Well, we're trying to protect them.

20     And then at one point you got bored with my answers and you told me:

21     Milos, if you in Srbac are afraid and if you are bothered by the less

22     than 1.000 non-Serbs, then you're not Serbs.  You're not even humans.

23     And then you used an expression that really surprised me and I can't

24     repeat it here.

25        Q.   Why not?  Repeat it.

Page 44947

 1        A.   And then you said:  There are 22.000 inhabitants in Srbac and

 2     there is less than 1.000 non-Serbs, and if you are bothered by them, like

 3     some are, then you are neither humans nor Serbs, you are mere cunts.  I

 4     really -- I was taken by surprise with your answer.

 5        Q.   I myself was really taken by surprise when I realised how many

 6     swearwords I used in telephone conversations, but I'm also taken by

 7     surprise by today's transcript.  I suppose this will be reviewed and

 8     corrected.

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  Can Mr. Karadzic repeat the document number.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   And while we are waiting for the document, can you please explain

12     what was the misunderstanding involving the school in Kobas?

13             MR. TIEGER:  If Dr. Karadzic is surprised by the transcript, it

14     may in part be because one can hear the interpreter racing to keep up,

15     breathlessly.  So it's not only the witness who is apparently speaking

16     too fast, but in trying to keep up with Mr. Karadzic's speed, you can

17     hear the strain in her voice and the pace of her translation.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

19             Do you remember the question, Mr. Milincic?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You have to repeat it.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let me just call up 65 ter 31802 --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Before calling up the document, can you not ask a

23     question to the witness?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I think the document is the

25     intercept of the conversation that they've just been discussing.

Page 44948

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, very well.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Oh, yes.  It was not very clear when you spoke about the school

 4     in Kobas.  What was the problem with its name?

 5        A.   I believe that it's name was Esad Midzic, and then names were

 6     being changed, other names were given to those schools to deal with the

 7     ideological rifts because those ideological divisions were already --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Before we go on, we had -- we need

 9     to find out who these interlocutors are first of all.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought that you can read it.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Can you identify this document?  Who are the interlocutors?

13        A.   The two of us, President Karadzic and Milos Milincic.

14        Q.   When --

15             JUDGE KWON:  The document says "Milos Milosic," no reference to

16     Mr. Milincic.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, this is a mistake.

18     Milos Milincic.  This is me.  There is no two ways about it.

19             JUDGE KWON:  How do you know this is a mistake?  You have to

20     establish that it was the witness, Mr. Karadzic, first of all.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Mr. Milincic, could you please tell us where it says "Srbac

23     municipality ... Municipal Assembly chairman Milos Milosic needs you ..."

24     was there a Milos Milosic?

25        A.   No, no.

Page 44949

 1        Q.   Was this mis-recorded by the person who was listening in?

 2        A.   At that time I was the Municipal Assembly chairman and my name is

 3     Milos Milincic, so this is a mistake.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, we have the audio.

 5     It's of poor quality.  However, the voices may be recognised and

 6     identified.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And the context is rather

 8     self-explanatory.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Now I'm fine.  Please continue.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.  We can read this.  I'd

11     like us to look at the following page.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Could you please tell us what this is all about.

14        A.   Yes, the school in Kobas, I believe it bore the name of a war

15     hero from the Second World War, Esad Midzic.  We wanted to put that into

16     a different frame, an artistic frame.  So there was a discussion as to

17     what name to give to the school in Kobas.  There was some extreme

18     demands, one of them was for the school to be named Saint Sava, and the

19     two MPs from the SDA reacted.  They were against it.  They didn't want

20     the name to be Saint Sava because they were Bosniaks, Muslims, and there

21     are some associations with that name.  There were some problems with

22     that.  And then another proposal was Ducic and then Njegos.  But Njegos

23     was the name already given to another school.  There were some comical

24     situations with this regard.

25             And then you either called me or I called you.  I called you to

Page 44950

 1     consult you, whether I should embark on that at all or whether to put it

 2     on hold or whether we should be somewhat faster and harsher in all of

 3     that.  And then you have -- had some proposals, and then you said:  Be

 4     smart and look for a compromise.  Jovan Ducic, or if that is not doable

 5     then you proposed something else that was quite endearing.  You said if

 6     you had to guard the name of the school with police forces, then there is

 7     something wrong with that name obviously.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we look at the following

 9     English page.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Can you remember what my comment was on the name of Saint Sava,

12     whether I said that it was their heritage as well?

13        A.   Yes, we tried to discuss to those -- to discuss matters with

14     those two MPs, we wanted to impart on them that Saint Sava was an

15     enlightener, that he was popular even before the last war, that schools

16     had reviews to celebrate Saint Sava, that one shouldn't be narrow-minded

17     because Saint Sava was a do-gooder, he was an educator, and that he was

18     accepted by everybody as an exceptional figure, a figure in the world of

19     culture.  But people didn't know that, that's why they reacted

20     spontaneously.  I know that one of my own MPs who was a Serb, he said:

21     Leave aside Saint Sava.  What book did he author?  And I told him what

22     canons Saint Sava authored, but we left it at that.

23        Q.   Can I please ask you to tell us, in our conversation a mention

24     was made of some things.  What was my recommendation?  What direction

25     should you seek to reach a compromise?

Page 44951

 1        A.   Your proposal was Vuk Karadzic.  I said:  No, we can't do that

 2     because we have already given that name to another school.  What about

 3     Jovan Ducic, you said?  The socialists started looking for his

 4     ideological flaws.  They said that Ducic was a Chetnik who emigrated to

 5     America, so we wanted to deal with that as well.  And then you said:

 6     Okay, what about Mehmed Mesa Selimovic, maybe that's not bad.  You

 7     actually left it to me.  You told me you seek my advice but it's up to

 8     you to deal with that.  But I wanted to consult you, I didn't want to

 9     rush into things.  I received a letter from Ostoja, I have it here with

10     me.  People from Ostoja wrote to me because they were dissatisfied with

11     all the changes of the names of schools.

12        Q.   Thank you.  What about the central school in Srbac, what was its

13     name and what about the branch in Kobas?

14        A.   In Srbac it was Jovan Jovanovic Zmaj, who was a very well-known

15     children's author loved by everybody across the board because he wrote

16     warmly about children, without any differences, without any ideology.

17     And as for the school in Kobas was named after another great author,

18     Mehmed Mesa Selimovic.  That was the compromise.

19        Q.   Thank you.  During the war, did you have an occasion to preserve

20     your minorities and how did you do that?

21        A.   I have to say this:  There was scavengers, as I've already told

22     you, who benefitted from night-time and they wore arms in Lepenica Srbac.

23     The family Malesevic were killed.  Three perpetrators were arrested.

24     They were Serbs, one committed suicide and the other two were sentenced

25     to death.  However, they were -- their sentence was changed to 20 years'

Page 44952

 1     imprisonment.  In Razbor, which is another place, the Vejinovic family

 2     was attacked.  They were looking for money and fuel.  They were beaten

 3     and mutilated.  In a village called Kladanj, a shop was robbed and the

 4     Serbs beat up the owner.  There was a lot of fear of Muslims.  The fact

 5     was that we set up a police check-point in Kobas to protect people in

 6     Kobas from the -- from the incursions, from those huge national heros who

 7     were actually robbers and plunderers, nothing else.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please tell us who were the victims, what was

 9     their ethnicity?  For example, the Malesevics, the Vejinovics, who were

10     they and who were the perpetrators of those crimes?

11        A.   The Malesevic family was --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Speak slowly and put a pause.

13             Yes, please continue.  Repeat your -- the answer, please.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The Malesevic family in

15     Gornja Lepenica, they were a married couple who were retired after having

16     worked in Germany all their lives.  They were riched [as interpreted].

17     They were killed by three Serbs.  They were arrested.  They were the

18     perpetrators of that crime.  They were sentenced to death.  One of them

19     committed suicide.  And the other two had their sentences changed to 20

20     years' imprisonment.  As for the Vejinovic's in Razbor, we never

21     established -- the police did not have enough proof.  Some Serbs were

22     brought in for questioning.  In Kladari, which was a Serbian settlement,

23     people don't dare testify, they don't dare say anything.  However, some

24     scavengers came there, they were also Serbs.  Why am I saying all this?

25     Because I was held at gunpoint.  Some soldiers held me at gunpoint, they

Page 44953

 1     were Serbs.  The situation was really bad and ugly.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Can you please help us, were there any instances of

 4     emigration of minority members from your municipality?  How did Muslim

 5     able-bodied men as well as Croatian able-bodied men behave?

 6        A.   The companies didn't operate.  The situation persisted for a long

 7     time.  There was no communication with the world.  There was nothing to

 8     live on.  We can talk about the emigration of Serbs from Davor, which was

 9     on the border.  In any case, I was informed about some 60 Bosniak

10     Muslims, not families, but individuals, especially younger individuals,

11     who emigrated to third countries because they didn't have jobs.  Their

12     assets, their property, was protected.  Serbs did move into some of their

13     houses.  They were refugees in Srbac from various territories of the

14     former Bosnia and Herzegovina.  When the war was over, the property was

15     returned to their original owners.

16        Q.   Thank you.  What about a majority of the people, save for those

17     60 individuals, did they remain living in Srbac?

18        A.   No, there was no exodus at all.  And when you asked me about

19     fighters or the troops, I have to tell you I have some materials in my

20     briefcase.  22 Muslims fought in the Srbac Brigade.  They were wounded

21     and they have received decisions, based on which they now enjoy benefits

22     as war veterans and invalids.  22 Muslim fighters were wounded in the

23     Srbac Brigade.  Many of them were outside of the Srbac Brigade.  There

24     was a burial that I attended when a soldier, a Muslim soldier, had been

25     killed.  I made sure that hodza attended and performed religious rites.

Page 44954

 1     It's easy to talk about that now, but one had to have guts to do that, to

 2     bring a hodza.  I had problems because of that, people held it against

 3     me.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  Let's clarify one thing.  You didn't mention the word

 5     "exodus."  You said that there was no moving out.

 6        A.   No, no, no.  There was no exodus.  People did not leave.

 7        Q.   When you said that people were outside of the Srbac Brigade, what

 8     did you mean by that?  That they were in other units?

 9        A.   Yes, yes, a majority were in the Srbac Brigade, but they were

10     also in the 16th and other units.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Can you now tell us whether in your vicinity there

12     were other municipalities where the presidents of the municipalities

13     managed to preserve peace for their minorities?  Who were the presidents

14     of those municipalities and what was their relationship with the

15     Main Board?

16        A.   If I were to recapitulate after all of this, the top people of

17     the party and of the municipality, again I don't know whether it depended

18     on ability and communication and then the programme of the party itself.

19     These municipalities resisted the war to quite an extent.  For example,

20     Srbac, the Srbac municipality, I was president of the municipality and

21     the Main Board.  That was considered to be the safest municipality

22     throughout the war.  We can discuss that a bit more later on.  Then there

23     was Gradiska, that municipality, where the percentage of Bosniaks,

24     Muslims, was greater than in Srbac.  There were certain municipalities

25     there, but somehow the balance was preserved.  Prnjavor, that

Page 44955

 1     municipality too.  They used to call Prnjavor a small-scale Yugoslavia

 2     because there were several ethnic communities.  Now, if I were to

 3     recapitulate, perhaps this is a clash of interests from this point of

 4     view, but then there was this concentration of power to keep it as simple

 5     as possible and so on and so forth.

 6        Q.   Who were the presidents of municipalities?  You mentioned

 7     Gradiska, Prnjavor, Laktasi, Mrkonjic Grad --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Did he say Laktasi?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  No --

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no, I'm just adding now these

11     municipalities and I want to ask who the presidents of those

12     municipalities were.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Candidates of the Serb Democratic

14     Party, Nebojsa Ivastanin, president of the SDS in Gradiska; Stevan Jovic,

15     also a member of the SDS, president of the SDS in Laktasi, that's where

16     Premier Dodik is from, or rather, he's now the president of the

17     Republika Srpska; in Mrkonjic, Dr. Luka Cudic, I think that was his name;

18     in Prnjavor, the candidate of the SDS Nemanja Vasic.  And let me not

19     enumerate all of it.  Trebinje --

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you, thank you.  What was the position of these presidents

22     in relation to the Main Board?

23        A.   We met often, we communicated.  If somebody did not attend a

24     Main Board meeting for any reason, then those who did go would convey

25     what happened there.

Page 44956

 1        Q.   Were they members of the Main Board?

 2        A.   Nebojsa, president of Gradiska, was; Nemanja Vasic was;

 3     Stevan Jovic, I think he wasn't a member of the Main Board; Luka Cudic in

 4     Mrkonjic, he was; Bozidar Vucurevic in Trebinje, he was.  Now I cannot

 5     remember anymore.  I think that these people who took it upon themselves

 6     to indeed be the most responsible persons and that's where there was the

 7     least number of problems.

 8        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Milincic.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I have no further

10     questions at this point.  Could this intercept please be admitted all

11     together with the audio recording.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Mr. Tieger?

13             MR. TIEGER:  No, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do we need to admit the audio?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have to, but if somebody's

16     interested.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll receive this intercept.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number D4186, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

20             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21                           Cross-examination by Mr. Tieger:

22        Q.   Mr. Milincic, this is not the first time that you've testified

23     before this Tribunal.  You also testified in the Krajisnik case as a

24     Defence witness in November of 2005; correct?

25        A.   That's right, yes.

Page 44957

 1        Q.   And you also gave a statement to the Karadzic Defence in

 2     connection with this particular case, which I imagine happened sometime

 3     this year; is that right?

 4        A.   Yes, sometime in July or August, I think it was August.

 5        Q.   Okay.  Now, Dr. Karadzic asked you at page 46 whether the party

 6     had departed from what was said at the rally in September of 1990, that

 7     we looked at during your examination-in-chief and reviewed the

 8     transcript.  Now, those statements at the time from Dr. Karadzic which

 9     you indicated the party did not depart from would then have included --

10             MR. TIEGER:  And I guess we need to call up D4185, the transcript

11     of that rally and Dr. Karadzic's speech.

12        Q.   It would have included, for example, in the portion that appears

13     under 4.59, at approximately the fourth sentence there, the statement:

14             "You would like to live in peace with others but the others must

15     have the same measure of this desire in order to live together.  Serbs,

16     you will treat others strictly in the way the others treat you, no more,

17     no less ..."

18             So that was one of the statements made by Dr. Karadzic at the

19     time; correct?

20        A.   Mm-hm.

21        Q.   And at 6.55, at the end of that portion, he also stated:

22             "We will not take anything what belongs to others and we will not

23     leave anything that belongs to us ..."

24             And that was part of what Dr. Karadzic stated in September of

25     1990 that you indicated the party didn't later depart from; right?

Page 44958

 1             THE ACCUSED:  Next page in Serbian, please.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   I just wanted you to confirm that.  Or are you able to find that?

 4     It should be just at the end of that portion, it's a very small portion.

 5        A.   Are you referring to 11.15:

 6             "But our enemies are not only those who hate Serbs ..."

 7             Is that what you had in mind?

 8        Q.   No, I said at the end of 6.55:

 9             "We will not take anything what belongs to others and we will not

10     leave anything that belongs to us ..."

11             So that's correct also; right?

12        A.   Yes, yes, I see that.

13        Q.   And although it's not included in this portion of the speech that

14     was transcribed by the Defence, you yourself alluded to a reference to

15     Marko Kraljevic and the image of him carrying the spear the other way

16     around until such time as he needed it.

17             MR. TIEGER:  And if we could upload 65 ter 40635A, have a

18     transcript of what I believe to be that portion.

19        Q.   That appears -- that appears at -- another upload that was

20     double-checked if I'm not mistaken, essentially the same translation but

21     let's make sure.

22             In any event, the B/C/S is the same as you see here.  I'm going

23     to read the English portion of the translation that we received.  It is

24     indeed a reference to the Marko Kraljevic image that you quoted.  It

25     appears at 1.17.22 through 1.17.48 of the rally.  And it says basically:

Page 44959

 1             We shall not be harsh also on account of that old poem about

 2     Marko Kraljevic when he carried the spear upside down and the fairy warns

 3     him not to carry it upside down or that way and Marko replies:  I shall

 4     easily bring about the spear should trouble beset me.  That's a quote

 5     from Marko.

 6             And then Dr. Karadzic continues:  We shall be benign and

 7     democratic right up to the moment until democracy is no longer able to

 8     function.  And then when someone -- at the moment when someone attacks

 9     us, we shall bring about the spear.

10             So that's another reflection, according to you, as I understand

11     it, in the -- of what was said or conveyed by Dr. Karadzic at the rally

12     and from which the party did not depart when the time came?

13        A.   I have to tell you that the people, especially the Serb people,

14     bearing in mind their legacy, the fear that was instilled in them decades

15     before that --

16        Q.   Mr. Milincic --

17        A.   -- we embarked upon the development of democracy and -- yes?

18        Q.   Excuse me, sir.  I have a limited period of time.  I think you

19     answered Dr. Karadzic's questions.  I ask you to answer mine.  And my

20     question was whether or not this is indeed what Dr. Karadzic said at the

21     rally and which you indicated were matters that the party did not later

22     depart from.  Is that correct or not?

23        A.   We did not depart from democracy.  If we are attacked, then we

24     have to defend ourselves.  That is the applause that was received from

25     everyone at the rally.  If we were attacked, and we weren't expected to

Page 44960

 1     be attacked.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  You asked a compound question.

 3             Do you confirm Mr. Karadzic said that at the time, at that rally?

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] That was said and everyone

 5     understands that properly.  I don't see what it is that is problematic

 6     here.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  So I tender that, Mr. President, to be added to the

 8     previous exhibit.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure how we can add that video --

10             MR. TIEGER:  That's true.  Okay.  Well, let's just have it as a

11     supplemental exhibit and we can link it -- I understand the Registrar --

12             JUDGE KWON:  Is it possible to add this part, technically?  I'm

13     just asking.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Do you want it added to the video as well as the

15     transcript?

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yeah, if we are to add it, it should be added that

17     way.  We'll admit it separately.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  I think that would be easier.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  As a Prosecution exhibit.

20             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit P6563, Your Honours.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I hope there's some cross-reference between these

22     two -- each other --

23             MR. TIEGER:  In other contexts I'm told the Registrar can do

24     that.

25             Mr. President, I'm about to move on to another matter.  I don't

Page 44961

 1     think we could get too deeply into it before we would break, so perhaps

 2     it's best to adjourn at this point.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume

 4     at quarter past 1.00.

 5                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.28 p.m.

 6                           --- On resuming at 1.18 p.m.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Milincic, at about page 54 of today's transcript you

10     mentioned some crimes in Srbac and alluded to at least one prosecution.

11     The last time you were here and testified in the Krajisnik case, you also

12     raised the issue of crimes and prosecutions.  And in particular, you

13     brought to the Court's attention the killing of Mr. Hadziselimovic, who

14     you mentioned today, in order to show the Court that a prominent Muslim

15     had been murdered and the authorities responded by prosecuting and

16     imprisoning the perpetrator.  Correct?  That's what happened the last

17     time you were here.

18        A.   Hadziselimovic was my vice-president, but at the time when this

19     incident occurred in this restaurant with one or more protagonists, he

20     was -- he had deregistered --

21        Q.   Sorry, Mr. Milincic --

22        A.   -- because he had an apartment --

23        Q.   -- I'm not asking for you to recap the entirety of the

24     Hadziselimovic murder.  I'm asking you whether or not it's true - and I

25     can show you and will show you if necessary the transcript of your

Page 44962

 1     testimony in the Krajisnik case - that you came to the Court and you

 2     asserted that Mr. Hadziselimovic had been murdered by Mr. Stankovic and

 3     that Mr. Stankovic had been prosecuted for that murder?

 4        A.   It is correct that that happened.  Mr. Stankovic was convicted

 5     because of some other crimes or misdemeanours in addition to this murder,

 6     but this killing of Hadziselimovic was a fight.  I checked that later on

 7     after my testimony here.  It happened in a brawl.  I did not have

 8     information, the right kind of information then.  The fact is that

 9     Hadziselimovic as he was passing by this tavern, he reacted to a song,

10     and then there was this brawl and he died in hospital in Banja Luka five

11     or six days later.  Hadziselimovic, yes.

12        Q.   Let's try to get the chronology of your information and the

13     provision of the type of information that you wanted to convey to the

14     Court correct.

15             MR. TIEGER:  So if we could turn to 65 ter 25768, page -- well,

16     let's get that first and then I can turn you -- direct you to the page.

17     Too many numbers.  Okay.  And turn, please, to page 18450.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Give me this in my language.

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   I'll have to read it to you and it will be translated, sir, but I

21     hope that your recollection of the event will be refreshed by the

22     portions that are read back to you verbatim.

23             MR. TIEGER:  18450, please.

24        Q.   Here I was recapping for you what you had stated in your

25     examination-in-chief to the Court, and I stated to you that:

Page 44963

 1             "... what you wanted to show the Court was that in that instance

 2     in particular, a prominent and well-regarded Muslim had been murdered and

 3     the Serbian authorities had responded by prosecuting and imprisoning the

 4     perpetrator for that; correct?"

 5             And your answer was:

 6             "Yes."

 7             So that's the first thing, Mr. Milincic.  It's true that you

 8     brought the Court's attention to this event in order to show how rigorous

 9     the reaction by the Serbian authorities was; right?

10        A.   That's how you interpret it.

11        Q.   No, Mr. Milincic --

12        A.   At that point --

13        Q.   Excuse me, sir.  I just read -- do you dispute what you said

14     here?  The question was:  You wanted to show the Court that in that

15     instance a prominent and well-regarded Muslim had been murdered and the

16     Serbian authorities responded by prosecuting and imprisoning the

17     perpetrator for that; correct?  Your answer was "yes" in 2005.  Do you

18     deny that?

19        A.   I'm not denying that that's what I said, but when I checked later

20     it wasn't a murder, it was a brawl in a tavern and the man died in

21     hospital five or six days later.  I as president of the municipality did

22     not have to know about all of these details, just like I don't know all

23     the details concerning the killing of the Malesevic family.

24        Q.   I see.  So your explanation to the Court on this occasion is that

25     when Mr. Hadziselimovic, a prominent and well-regarded Muslim in your

Page 44964

 1     community who was your deputy was killed and a man was arrested for his

 2     murder and you say imprisoned and prosecuted, now you say that was simply

 3     a brawl; is that it?  So you didn't know about that at the time.  You

 4     only found out about what happened to Mr. Hadziselimovic long afterwards.

 5     That's your explanation?

 6        A.   My explanation was that that happened, that there was a brawl,

 7     that a man died in hospital, that the military authorities arrested the

 8     mentioned gentleman, they interrogated him and released him after a

 9     while, and then in the meantime he did other things.  That is the truth

10     and that is undeniable.  Perhaps I rushed on and said that he was

11     sentenced immediately.  No.  He was interviewed, released, allowed to go

12     home, and then in the meantime he committed some other crimes and was

13     then convicted.  That is the full truth.

14        Q.   The fact of the matter is that the Trial Chamber in the Krajisnik

15     case looked at the documents you brought to establish your claim that

16     Mr. Stankovic had been prosecuted and imprisoned for the Hadziselimovic

17     murder and asked you -- well, let me read this to you.

18             "Q.  And with respect to the documents you brought with you" --

19     this is the bottom of page 18450 going on to 18451.

20             "Q.  With respect to the documents you brought with you

21     concerning the murder of Mr. Hadziselimovic, the Court in particular

22     asked you how it could know which murder these documents referred to,

23     because it didn't seem clear on its face, and you assured the Court that

24     it referred to the murder of Mr. Hadziselimovic because you knew how

25     important it was to be accurate here and bring accurate information to

Page 44965

 1     the Court; is that right?"

 2             And your answer was:

 3             "A.  Yes."

 4             That's what you said in 2005; correct?

 5        A.   I have to intervene.  When you drew my attention to this, the

 6     sequence of events, what happened to Stankovic or Hadziselimovic, then I

 7     saw that I was not fully aware of all the details.  And then I said

 8     you're right.  Check that.  That's what I said -- oh, then you're right.

 9     It was an oversight on my part with regard to some things, I mean in

10     terms of time an oversight.

11             Now it is a fact that this man was sentenced to six years in

12     prison for what he did, but after the brawl with Hadziselimovic, the

13     military authorities, the court, released him.  There was a war going on

14     and they had no place to keep all these people in detention.  And then

15     when he did other things, then he was arrested, prosecuted, and convicted

16     to six years in prison.  And that is the full truth and that can be

17     checked.  I as president of the municipality, I wanted to say that no one

18     was coddled, if you will.  Serbs or Muslims, or anybody.  And if bad

19     things happen on one side, of course they would happen on the other side

20     too.

21             MR. TIEGER:  And I tender 18450 and 51, Mr. President.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll receive it.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6564, Your Honours.

24             MR. TIEGER:

25        Q.   Mr. Milincic, you've alluded a couple of times to what happened

Page 44966

 1     after that so let me quickly recap the Stankovic affair.  First of all,

 2     in May of 1992 -- and now if we could turn to 18465, track what you

 3     confirmed in 2005.  All right.  Looking back -- looking down to the

 4     bottom third of the page:

 5             In May of 1992, Mr. Stankovic murdered Mr. Hadziselimovic.  In

 6     August of 1992, he murdered Hasima Zukanovic, a woman, and Reuf Alagic,

 7     and shot and seriously injured Hamza Bojadzic and Sabra Alagic,

 8     Mr. Alagic's mother.  And then having been released again, in

 9     September of 1994, he shot two Serb children and then was finally, at

10     that point, put in prison until approximately 2002.

11             That's all correct; right?  And you confirmed on the top of the

12     next page:

13             "It is correct what you have just said."

14             That was your testimony in 2005; right?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Why don't you read out the full sentence.

16             MR. TIEGER:  Sure.

17             JUDGE KWON:  His answer --

18             MR. TIEGER:

19        Q.   The question was:

20             "That's all correct; right?"

21             Your answer was:

22             "Now you have just reminded me of the Serbian children.  I have

23     completely forgotten about them, unfortunately.  It is correct what you

24     have just said.  That detail, unfortunately, has escaped me."

25             That was your testimony in 2005; right?  About the chain of

Page 44967

 1     events with respect to Mr. Stankovic?

 2             THE ACCUSED:  We don't see the proper --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know where the

 4     misunderstanding is.  I only assisted you to get the right chronology,

 5     which I initially overlooked.  Now, why he was convicted -- sentenced to

 6     six years, why he had been released early, I don't know.  It was up to

 7     the military authorities.  I was not hiding anything and I'm not hiding

 8     anything now.  I'm sorry for everybody who fell victim, for the Muslims

 9     and for the Malesevics.  Those are crazy things in war.  You can't

10     control them.

11             MR. TIEGER:  I tender those two pages, Mr. President.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add them.

13             MR. TIEGER:

14        Q.   You also responded to some questions today from Mr. Karadzic

15     about other municipalities and other presidents of municipalities and so

16     on.  And I'll get to that in a moment, but I note that the -- I asked you

17     earlier about both your testimony and your statement.  And I note, for

18     example, that the subject of the rally and the speech that you discussed

19     with Dr. Karadzic earlier was covered in the statement you provided to

20     the Karadzic Defence; correct?  You addressed that topic in your

21     statement; right?

22        A.   Yes, what I wrote and what I stated.  We're talking now.  Where

23     is the problem?

24             MR. TIEGER:  Can we call up 1D09746, please.

25        Q.   Can I ask you to just take a quick look at this and you can look

Page 44968

 1     through as many of the pages as you wish and confirm that this is the

 2     statement you gave the Karadzic Defence in approximately July of this

 3     year?

 4        A.   What am I supposed to do, confirm this?

 5        Q.   No, just confirm whether or not that is the statement that you

 6     gave the Karadzic Defence.  I'll ask you about -- I may or may not ask

 7     you about some of the details.

 8        A.   The statement is authentic and I stand by it.

 9        Q.   Now, in -- when this statement was assembled, how was that done?

10     Did the Karadzic -- the representative or representatives of the Karadzic

11     Defence team suggest to you the issues that should be covered?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, just as a -- I don't

13     have an objection, but I want to note that if this question is answered,

14     we would be tendering the statement.  We think the statement would be

15     relevant at this point.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I think the Court will have to wait and see

18     whether the contents of the statement are or are not relevant for

19     purposes of admission.  But the mere fact that I --

20             JUDGE KWON:  Given that he testified viva voce, why don't you put

21     your question directly and then see how it is reflected in the statement.

22     And then you can ask that question.

23             MR. TIEGER:  I would appreciate the opportunity to ask a couple

24     of preliminary questions, Mr. President, though.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 44969

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Because, as you will see, the question I ultimately

 2     ask may implicate the understanding of how that was prepared.

 3        Q.   So just a couple of questions --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  This is the pause you should put.

 5     Yes, please go on.

 6             MR. TIEGER:

 7        Q.   Are these -- in essence, are these all your words or did the

 8     Karadzic Defence team suggest to you what you should say in the

 9     statement?

10             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President, I do object now because

11     if you -- if we're talking about the substance of the statement and how

12     it was taken as opposed to something that is inconsistent with his

13     testimony, then I think that the statement itself would have to be

14     admitted.  Since you've denied the admission of the statement under

15     92 ter, now I think that the Prosecution is required -- is giving grounds

16     for the statement to be admitted.  It would be unfair to discuss how the

17     statement was prepared without admitting its entire contents.  So that's

18     my point.

19             MR. TIEGER:  Those are total apples and oranges, Mr. President.

20     And I will turn to a specific portion of the statement that will make

21     these questions relevant, I can assure you.  I don't intend to ask these

22     totally in the abstract --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Well --

24             MR. TIEGER:  -- but the mere fact --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- just a second.

Page 44970

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  And we'll consider whether it's necessary to admit

 5     this document -- statement later on.

 6             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

 7        Q.   Mr. Milincic, do you recall the question I asked before the

 8     intervention, that was:  Are these all your words or did the Karadzic

 9     Defence team suggest to you what you should say in the statement?

10        A.   I'm a man in good health who raised generations, interpreted

11     visionary, artistic messages, and I don't need dictation.  I spoke, and

12     as I -- I said as a president of the municipality I did this, this, this,

13     and that, item by item, which I described here.  Whether it's a

14     coincidence that the representative of the Defence wanted me to talk

15     about certain things and I already knew what I needed to say, how the

16     party was established, why the war started, what Karadzic told us, what

17     he suggested to the municipalities because municipalities were states on

18     a small scale.  And in all my contacts and situations, I couldn't wait

19     for Karadzic, I had to deal with problems myself.  So this question,

20     whether something was suggested to me, is superfluous.

21             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness please be asked to slow down.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Milincic, you spoke a bit too fast.  Please

23     repeat from your -- where -- from where you said something suggested was

24     superfluous.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  The statement that I

Page 44971

 1     gave, the statements I gave, are mine and authentic.  A man with my world

 2     views and my experience, an educator, was certainly able to answer a

 3     certain number of questions that are relevant to Srbac and further

 4     afield, the whole context and Karadzic's role.  So it was a coincidence

 5     that I anticipated the questions.  I knew what I was going to say about

 6     the situation in the municipality, about the relationship in the

 7     authorities in the municipality, and dealing with everyday issues when

 8     you don't have a state you have a war going on, you have no telephone

 9     communication with the authorities further up.  Municipalities --

10             MR. TIEGER:

11        Q.   Mr. Milincic --

12        A.   -- were states on a small scale.

13        Q.   -- you've answered the question.

14             MR. TIEGER:  Can I turn to paragraph 22, please.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In the transcript, page 72, line 5,

16     I understand why the interpreter made the mistake, the words are very

17     similar, sound very similar.  The witness didn't say:  "I'm a man in good

18     health."  He said:  "I'm a mature person."

19             MR. TIEGER:

20        Q.   You see paragraph 22 of your statement, last paragraph:

21             "As president of the Srbac Municipal Assembly and member of the

22     SDS Main Board, and based on direct contacts ... I can categorically

23     state ..." et cetera.

24             You see that one?

25        A.   Mm-hmm.

Page 44972

 1        Q.   Great.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Can we have 65 ter --

 3        Q.   Look at it quickly, please, because I'm going to turn to another

 4     document.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Can we have 65 ter 25776, please.

 6        Q.   Now, here we see that same paragraph, paragraph 22 of your

 7     statement, and we also see paragraph 19 of the statement of

 8     Witness Dragomir Ljubojevic, whose evidence was admitted here earlier.

 9     He wasn't president of the Srbac Municipal Assembly, he was president of

10     the Bijeljina Municipal Assembly.  And look at the portion, Mr. Milincic,

11     which begins:

12             "A na osnovu ..."

13             Now, I can read it out so you can follow, but it is verbatim, one

14     word after another, what is provided in your statement.

15             MR. ROBINSON:  I object, Mr. President.  First of all, it's -- at

16     least -- unless the translation is different than --

17             MR. TIEGER:  Look at the Serbian, please.

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, I'm looking at the Serbian, yes.  I don't see

19     it being verbatim.  But, Mr. President --

20             MR. TIEGER:  Then I'll read it out and the witness can follow.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Okay.  Can I finish my intervention, Mr. Tieger?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, the only way that this

24     cross-examination could be relevant is if the statement is admitted

25     because this is now an issue of whether or not what he said in the

Page 44973

 1     statement is his own words.  And you have already said that the statement

 2     was not part of the testimony, so I'm at this time moving that the

 3     statement be admitted.  Then Mr. Tieger can ask all the questions he

 4     would like about it.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.  That's -- what is relevant -- the

 8     statement in its entirety is not relevant for its substance.  What is

 9     relevant is whether or not answers were suggested to this witness.  So

10     this paragraph is certainly relevant, and the issue of whether or not any

11     information was provided to him, funneled to him, is relevant for

12     purposes of assessing his testimony, but that certainly doesn't bootstrap

13     the remainder of the statement into evidence.  Quite the contrary.  It

14     casts the rest of it into doubt as well.  But this paragraph is relevant;

15     the rest of the statement is not for that purpose.

16                           [Trial Chamber confers]

17             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Tieger, can we have some elaboration on the

18     last point you made to the Chamber, as respects why the Chamber should

19     not receive the entirety of the statement?

20             MR. TIEGER:  Well, yes, Mr. President.  I have isolated this

21     particular portion to demonstrate the proposition that this witness

22     appears to have been provided either the specific information or the way

23     in which he should formulate -- by the way, perhaps the witness should

24     take off his headphones for this or leave the courtroom during this

25     discussion.  Because I have more questions for him on this issue.

Page 44974

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 2             If Mr. Milincic, if you could excuse yourself for a moment.

 3                           [The witness stands down]

 4             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Your Honour.

 5             And -- and --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  -- I was still responding to Judge Baird's --

 8             JUDGE BAIRD:  So sorry, I thought you were waiting for the

 9     translation.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Oh, no.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE BAIRD:  Okay.

12             MR. TIEGER:  And I want to point out I'm addressing this as a

13     matter of principle.  I'm not frightened of what the -- of the statement

14     itself.  But the point is, I drew the Court's attention to this paragraph

15     because it demonstrates some kind of inescapable conclusion, and that is

16     that either the information itself or the formulation of that information

17     was clearly provided to this witness, unless we are to believe in the

18     most extraordinary coincidence of all time.

19             Now, that makes this paragraph relevant, as the -- as

20     paragraph 19 in the Ljubojevic statement is relevant.  But how that bears

21     on the remainder of the statement, which may or may not have reflected

22     portions of the witness's independent knowledge, is well beyond me.  The

23     fact is that this paragraph, if anything, casts further doubt on the

24     reliability of that statement, a statement which the Court has already

25     ruled is in most respects irrelevant to the case itself.

Page 44975

 1             So it's difficult for me to see how you take a statement which

 2     the Court has already determined to be largely irrelevant and then

 3     somehow resurrect it into something relevant by virtue of the fact that

 4     one portion of it is shown to be highly suspect.  If anything, it is a

 5     greater reason for not --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  When -- I don't take -- I don't think when

 7     Mr. Robinson suggested admission of the document -- statement in its

 8     entirety, it is not for the content of the statement, whether -- to make

 9     an observation whether the answers were fair to the witness, the way in

10     which the statements were formulated.

11             MR. TIEGER:  But, Your Honour -- Mr. President, I'm not concerned

12     with the way paragraph 1, 2, or 3 was formulated.  I haven't addressed

13     that issue, and I haven't addressed it in part because --

14             JUDGE KWON:  You said why you isolated this paragraph, but the

15     way in which formulated has bearing on the other -- his testimony as a

16     whole.

17             MR. TIEGER:  If any single -- no, I don't agree with that.  If

18     any single part of his statement has been tainted, then it calls into

19     question the entirety of what he's saying now and that is a matter of

20     weight.  But it can't be -- the taint can't be resurrected by the fact

21     that other portions were not provided to the witness.  Certainly it can

22     damage the Court's view of it, as I believe it would in this case; but

23     the fact that it doesn't infect the entirety item by item of a statement

24     that has not been admitted is irrelevant.  If you now know that this

25     witness was provided information in any respect, as I believe you do from

Page 44976

 1     this --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second --

 3             MR. TIEGER:  -- juxtaposition --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry to interrupt you.  Let me understand you

 5     correctly.  Say this portion is -- this isolated portion is what?  Let me

 6     say it's fed by the Defence team to the witness.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  And then what's the effect of that?

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Then the Court, when the Court -- well, I leave it

10     to the Court to decide the effect.  I know what the effect is for me --

11             JUDGE KWON:  [Overlapping speakers] -- that we should consider

12     this part is not in evidence.  Yes.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  But it shows the nature of the process by

14     which -- that brought this witness to the Court and the provision of

15     information to the witness in some form, and therefore should certainly

16     bear on the Court's assessment of his credibility as he testifies,

17     particularly in light of other information brought to light during the

18     course of cross-examination.  So you certainly can't ignore it, I

19     wouldn't think.  I certainly wouldn't presume to tell the Court what

20     effect it would -- it will choose ultimately to give its now awareness of

21     what happened with respect to this witness.  But it's certainly a factor

22     that, in my submission, should not be ignored and that I think the --

23     indeed, the Prosecution had a responsibility to bring to your attention.

24             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Tieger, if the paragraph, as you say, casts

25     doubt on the reliability of the statement, shouldn't that be a fortiori

Page 44977

 1     the case why the statement shouldn't be received?

 2             MR. TIEGER:  Of course, if there had been some question about

 3     receipt of the statement, then I might -- for example, if the Court

 4     hadn't intervened earlier and said:  Look, most of this statement is

 5     irrelevant, let's lead this witness's evidence live, if it had been a

 6     92 ter submission, then I might well be arguing that the nature of this

 7     paragraph infuses the reliability of the statement to such an extent that

 8     it can't be received 92 ter.  In this case, I'm only bringing it to the

 9     Court's attention in the context of the witness's viva voce testimony so

10     that the Court has a better -- is in a better position to assess the

11     reliability of what he testifies to viva voce by virtue of his previous

12     interactions with the Karadzic Defence team.

13             JUDGE BAIRD:  Mr. Robinson, would you like a rejoinder in this?

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, thank you very much, Judge Baird.  Well, the

15     Prosecution has created a straw man here by introducing this statement

16     which is not previously admitted and then attempting to tear it down in

17     part by showing that one paragraph may have been similar to what another

18     witness has said.  But in order for you to evaluate that now and having

19     placed the reliability of this process including the taking of the

20     statement in question, then the whole statement is relevant and becomes

21     admissible.  And that's my point.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Excuse me, Your Honour, I'll say it again.  I'm not

23     saying that the entirety of the statement was fed to this witness, the

24     entirety of this largely irrelevant statement.  What I'm saying is, we

25     can see from paragraph 22 of his statement and paragraph 19 of a previous

Page 44978

 1     statement, the unmistakable conclusion that he was fed this language.

 2     Now, that bears on his credibility, particularly when he said that

 3     this -- that he provided his own words.  So he's testifying to this Court

 4     now that these are all his own words.  Now you know that he characterises

 5     something like this as his own words.  You have useful information with

 6     which to assess his credibility, but it has nothing to do with the rest

 7     of the statement.

 8             If Mr. Robinson wants to argue that:  We didn't provide him -- we

 9     didn't tell him, for example, in paragraph 1 of his statement what his

10     name was and what his educational background was, I fully accept that.

11     That's not the point.  The point is that paragraph 22 was provided to

12     this witness in some form and that directly impeaches the witness when he

13     told this Court that this reflected his own words, and it also in a

14     broader way affects or is useful to the Court in assessing his overall

15     credibility and reliability when he testifies viva voce.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just one question for you, Mr. Robinson.

17             Separate from the issue of credibility or reliability of this

18     witness, does this issue not have a bearing upon the issue -- or bearing

19     upon the overall reliability of the statement, 92 ter statement, from the

20     Defence?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Absolutely, yes.  As I understand it, Mr. Tieger

22     is calling into question the -- whether the witness's words in this

23     statement is his own.  So the reliability of the statement is definitely

24     in question.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 44979

 1             THE ACCUSED:  May I just -- just draw your attention to --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

 3             THE ACCUSED:  Witness also mentioned that there could have been

 4     coincidences between what -- before he was shown these two paragraphs.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We heard that.  Thank you.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll allow you to continue, Mr. Tieger.  And as for

 8     the admission of the statement in its entirety, we'll deal with it

 9     after -- during the course of re-examination when Mr. Karadzic really

10     tenders it.

11             Shall we bring in the witness back.

12                           [The witness takes the stand]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue, Mr. Tieger.

14             MR. TIEGER:

15        Q.   Mr. Milincic, you still have this exhibit in front of you.  You

16     are not seriously claiming, are you, that this peon of praise to

17     Dr. Karadzic by both you and Mr. Ljubojevic were arrived at independently

18     by each of you, are you?

19        A.   Recently I have read a statement by a writer who said, a

20     modern-day author, who wrote about somebody who was alive ten centuries

21     ago.  And he said:  I caught him copying from me.  The essence of my

22     statement and the person who drafted it is identical.  I believe that

23     many witnesses with whom people talk, if you were to offer them that

24     definition, they would say:  This is him with more or less nuances.

25             I have just looked at my statement now.  My statement has been

Page 44980

 1     translated into the Cyrillic letter.  It's just a style that is

 2     different; the essence is the same.  The author looked at the contents of

 3     my statement and Ljubojevic's statement, provided this definition.  But

 4     the essence is that one and the other must be the same.  You think that

 5     we sing as a choir; however, the popular and common belief is that this

 6     is what Radovan Karadzic was.  This is the essence.  He was a

 7     law-obedient citizen.  He was often criticised for being too democratic,

 8     that he talks too much instead of acting quickly.  It would have been

 9     good if on all sides there were people who were able to count to 10 and

10     then react.  I'm more and more convinced that this definition is actually

11     the essence of the person who was the former president of the republic.

12     This is why I'm here.  I'm not here to cheer and root for

13     Radovan Karadzic.

14             Now, if we looked at the words and if we discussed the theory of

15     literature, we shouldn't do that.  In legal terms, the author of this

16     text, when he was listening to me and Ljubojevic, he provided his own

17     wording.  I just looked at my statement now and I can tell you that the

18     essence is that he was a law-abiding person, that he tried to listen to

19     everybody, that he suffered criticism from Serbian politicians for being

20     too hesitant, for procrastinating, for not being too radical and

21     resolute.  And maybe it was for the better.  I believe that one of his

22     counterparts was similar to him, things would have gone the right way and

23     the better way.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, can Mr. Tieger be

25     asked to display the entire paragraph 22 and then you will see that it is

Page 44981

 1     not a verbatim copy.

 2             MR. TIEGER:

 3        Q.   This is the portion that is -- but, by the way, excuse me, let me

 4     ask you a question.  Were you looking at your statement outside to

 5     confirm -- to check what you had said?

 6        A.   Yes, yes.  I wanted to see whether somebody was disloyal to my

 7     words.  The essence of my statement for what I'm here for is that

 8     Radovan Karadzic was a humanist and a legalist.  Very often people would

 9     say to him:  Leave alone democracy, the parliamentary democracy, people

10     are dying here.  And he would respond:  Let's do it slowly, and then he

11     would quote from Njegos, who was a very clever man, who said:  All of you

12     people, you should be smart.  So this is the essence of my state -- in

13     style there are some nuances, but the essence of the statement is exactly

14     what I said.

15        Q.   All right.

16             MR. TIEGER:  I tender this exhibit, Mr. President.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm still asking for the entire

18     paragraph 22 to be displayed.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We saw that entire paragraph 22 a minute ago.  But

20     he just -- this is an excerpt from the paragraph 22, I take it?

21             MR. TIEGER:  That's correct.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger showed paragraph 22 to the witness and

23     then tender -- showed this comparative chart, this document, to the

24     witness.  If necessary, you can show that entire paragraph 22 -- or

25     paragraph 22 in its entirety to the witness later on.

Page 44982

 1                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit this.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6565, Your Honours.

 4             MR. TIEGER:

 5        Q.   Now, Mr. Milincic, earlier today you were asked about other

 6     municipalities and other presidents of municipalities who allegedly

 7     preserved peace.  During the course of your testimony in the Krajisnik

 8     case, you were also asked about and testified about what happened in

 9     other municipalities in the Krajina as well.  And that -- portions of

10     that testimony are reflected, for example, at page 18439 of your

11     Krajisnik testimony.  And that actually began on a previous page where

12     you were asked questions about what you were hearing was happening to

13     Muslims and Croats in the Krajina municipalities in the spring and summer

14     of 1992.  At page 18439 the Presiding Judge intervened and said:

15             "Mr. Milincic, no one asked you to tell us on matters you were

16     responsible for.  The question simply was:  What did you learn at that

17     time from others as to what happened in the Krajina to Croats and

18     Muslims?"

19             And you went on to say:

20             "You have to know that those things were not in the open, they

21     were not public, that if some things had been happening as you imply they

22     were, this was not announced, this was not made public, it was not made

23     known in Srbac.  I could listen to the media, which was already biased,

24     and I could listen to the stories, but I was not in the centre of all

25     these developments.  Some information reached me with a delay of six

Page 44983

 1     months about some crime, killing, violence, people being fired from work,

 2     but it happened on all the three sides.  It depended on the municipality.

 3     It is only normal that I knew more about the Serbs and what was happening

 4     to them, but I also could not avoid hearing what was happening to the

 5     Muslims and Croats."

 6             And you go on to say especially because you later established

 7     contact with Bishop Komarica.

 8             Now, first of all, do you confirm, Mr. Milincic, that this is

 9     what you said at least initially in response to the question about what

10     you knew at the time about what was happening to Muslims and Croats in

11     the Krajina?

12        A.   I've already said that there were rumours about thousands upon

13     thousands who were raped.  I even quoted Bismarck who said that people

14     lied the most during a war, during a hunt, and during elections.  And all

15     of those things were happening at the time.  I was most concerned with my

16     municipality.  As for rumours which I heard, I can't tell you even now

17     how credible those rumours were, whether things were covered up or not

18     known.  I don't know.  But I'm sure that there were exaggerations or

19     there were understatements.  It was only normal in the state of war.  I

20     don't know why do you find this portion of my testimony problematic.  I

21     have to remind you of the great author Tolstoy who said that --

22        Q.   No, Mr. Milincic, please, you don't have to --

23        A.   -- all the happy families are pretty much like --

24        Q.   Mr. Milincic, yeah, I know, you said that in your Krajisnik

25     testimony as well.  Let's focus on this for a moment.  Okay?  So first

Page 44984

 1     you said you heard some things but you didn't -- okay.

 2             I'm going to tender that portion and move on to what we later

 3     discussed in your Krajisnik testimony.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  We'll add this to Exhibit P6564.

 5             MR. TIEGER:

 6        Q.   Then Judge Orie continued his intervention:

 7             "Mr. Milincic" -- this is at page 18441.

 8             "Mr. Milincic, again, the only thing I'm asking you whether you

 9     heard that Muslims and Croats were killed.  I'm not asking you whether

10     you knew whether they told you where and when and how many; might the

11     following questions," is what the transcript says.

12             "Did you hear about Muslims and Croats --"

13             And you say at the bottom of the page:

14             "I heard.  I heard.  I heard.  I heard.  But I'm trying to be

15     specific and tell you about a place.  But I can't.  I heard stories.  I

16     heard rumours."

17             Can you confirm that is the exchange you had with the

18     Presiding Judge in your testimony in the Krajisnik case?

19        A.   I would like to add to that that I heard that many Serbs had been

20     killed both in Krajina and outside of Krajina.  What's in dispute?

21        Q.   Mr. Milincic, we'll move a lot faster if you don't ask any

22     questions --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Because this was not discussed in

24     your -- in chief.  Mr. Tieger was just asking you whether you confirm or

25     you stand by what you said in Krajisnik testimony?

Page 44985

 1             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I heard stories.  I heard rumours.

 2     This is how I defined those.  I said it then and I'm repeating the same

 3     thing.  But this is too isolated.  When you asked me about --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. --

 5             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- Croats and Muslims and when you

 6     omit the Serbs, this is isolated --

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Milincic, the question was, I quote:  Can you

 9     confirm that is the exchange you had with the Judge in your testimony in

10     the Krajisnik case?

11             You could have answered just "yes."  Do you agree?

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I've said it.  I have put things in

13     that context.  I heard.  I didn't see.  I'm not claiming anything.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Please don't overlap.  If you say just once, we are

16     aware of this.

17             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] On page 86, line 11 and line 12,

19     the witness did not say what it says here:  I said that many Serbs were

20     killed as well.  This now looks like a tu quoque and it was never meant

21     to be that.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I believe that this is what I said.

23     I don't know.  I believe that I said it because it was only logical for

24     me to say that.

25             MR. TIEGER:  That's another singularly unhelpful intervention

Page 44986

 1     when the witness confirms that's what he said and Dr. Karadzic tries to

 2     re-interpret it.

 3        Q.   Let's move on.  Mr. Milincic, when the ARK -- when the

 4     Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of the Krajina was formed, the

 5     presidents of municipalities were also members and you attended some of

 6     those meetings; correct?  That's what you testified to in Krajisnik?

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  I'm asking a question.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  And, Mr. Tieger, we have a procedure in this

10     courtroom that when there's an error in the transcript that Dr. Karadzic

11     is allowed to bring that to everyone's attention.  So you have to be

12     patient in order to make -- allow him to make those interventions.  Thank

13     you, Mr. President.

14             JUDGE BAIRD:  May I just add something to that, gentlemen of the

15     bar, I think we should try to avoid having cross-talk at the bar table.

16     It might not do well for overall appearances.  Thank you.

17             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Judge Baird, understood, and we'll act in

18     that fashion.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

20             Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise, I was waiting for the

22     interpretation to be over.  On page 87, in my intervention, the mistake

23     was repeated.  I'm kindly asking you to listen to the entire today's

24     hearing and correct it.  I -- the witness said:  I also heard that Serbs

25     got killed.  He didn't say what is written here.  He talks about rumours.

Page 44987

 1     There were rumours about some people and there were rumours about others

 2     as well.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The reason I just let that -- let it go is because I

 4     didn't see much difference.

 5             If you have problem with the transcript, I would like you to

 6     raise it in writing later on with respect to this matter.

 7             Shall we continue.

 8             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.

 9        Q.   Mr. Milincic -- well, let's just move to the transcript.

10             MR. TIEGER:  If we can turn to page 18443 at the bottom, it will

11     move quickly into 18444.

12             "Q.  And when the Crisis Staff of the Autonomous Region of

13     Krajina was formed, the presidents of municipalities were also members

14     and you attended some of those meetings?

15             "A.  Yes.  Yes."

16        Q.   You did confirm that in the Krajisnik case; correct?

17        A.   Yes, yes.

18        Q.   And in fact, you also testified - and that's at page 18362 - that

19     the ARK ordered Srbac to set up a Crisis Staff and you did so.  You said:

20             "At some point in 1992, we received an order from AR Krajina, and

21     AR Krajina, once again, was an institution referring to the Krajina

22     municipalities gravitating around Banja LukaBanja Luka was the centre.

23     And they suggested to us, ordered us, basically, to set up a

24     Crisis Staff, which would see to it that life in the municipality could

25     function as normally as possible ..."

Page 44988

 1             That's what you testified to in the Krajisnik case; correct?

 2        A.   Yes.

 3        Q.   So in light of your contact with the ARK authorities, the ARK

 4     Crisis Staff, the other presidents in the municipalities who attended

 5     such meetings, you were asked during the Krajisnik case about your

 6     opportunities to learn from those persons, from the leadership of the

 7     region and the leaders of other municipalities, what was happening.

 8     That's at 18444.  And in particular, your attention was drawn to the

 9     comments of Mr. Kupresanin, a man who was also from Srbac, at the

10     24th Session of the Bosnian Serb Assembly.  And those comments can be

11     seen at 18445.  That's when Mr. Kupresanin was saying that:

12             "'We say that the war was not necessary in Bosnia and

13     Herzegovina.  The war in Bosnia and Herzegovina was necessary.  Right

14     now, if we were to count the population right now, there would be,'

15     either" -- and the comment here is "either 'over' or 'about,' depending

16     on whether it's 'preko' or 'eko' [phoen], 'there would be over a million

17     Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bosnia and Herzegovina would be a

18     predominantly Serbian republic.  Is war necessary in Serbia?  It's a

19     horrible thing to say that the war would be necessary in Serbia.  If

20     Serbia does not go into the war now, then in three to five years, the

21     Albanians and Muslims will entirely legally overtake the power in

22     Belgrade, along with the Serb opposition.  This war was necessary for the

23     Serb people."

24             We're now on to 18447.  And then you were asked:

25             "Mr. Milincic, isn't Mr. Kupresanin in that body, before all

Page 44989

 1     those delegates, acknowledging the reduction of the Muslim population in

 2     Bosnia and Herzegovina, a reduction that took place through massive

 3     forcible expulsions?  Isn't that what that's a reference to?"

 4             And your answer was:

 5             "Yes.  Those are facts."

 6             That's a correct summary -- that's a correct account of your

 7     testimony in the Krajisnik case; correct?

 8        A.   No, no, I really can't recognise this.  First I can't recognise

 9     Vojo Kupresanin's words.  Why didn't you ask him?  He was here.  Really.

10     And for me to confirm his statement, I really can't say that I could say

11     anything about any facts.  What are the facts?  Please tell me, what are

12     the facts here?  I really don't know.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Milincic, probably you missed some part of the

14     question.  This is what you testified in Krajisnik case.  What Mr. Tieger

15     read out to you is your testimony in the Krajisnik case, and you were

16     read out the -- Mr. Kupresanin's speech and you were asked questions,

17     whether that's what he said.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I -- I -- I really can't confirm

19     that these are my words --

20             JUDGE KWON:  [Previous translation continues]...

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- and that I ever confirmed that.

22     I don't know what Vojo said.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  If you don't remember, that's fine.

24             MR. TIEGER:  We'll tender it, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive these pages.

Page 44990

 1             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  But, by the way, how much longer do you need to

 3     conclude your cross-examination?

 4             MR. TIEGER:  I'm jettisoning a great deal.  I just want to finish

 5     this section and then ask about one more very short concrete matter.  So

 6     I have one more section of this portion that concludes what we're doing

 7     right now to present to the witness and then ask him about one very

 8     discrete -- not even an issue, one previous statement he made.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue.

10             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you.

11        Q.   The questioning went on, Mr. Milincic, and then you were asked

12     about what Mr. Karadzic had said in July of 1992, that is, what both

13     Mr. Nedic and Mr. Karadzic said in July of 1992 at the 17th Assembly

14     Session.  I'm now on page 18448.  Mr. Nedic was quoted as saying:

15             "'... we must admit that the Muslims have been planted to us as a

16     people whose executioners we are to be.  I do not want the Serb people to

17     be executioners, but I am also against us giving up our state, our land,

18     and our territory.'"

19             And then Dr. Karadzic was quoting discussing the -- his view of

20     the Oriental mentality stemming from Islam, the concern that Serbs could

21     not control the Muslim birth rate.  And then he went on to say:

22             "'There is truth in what Mr. Kupresanin has said,' although, as I

23     indicated, that was a reference to Mr. Nedic, 'although nobody in Europe

24     will say it openly' ... 'that this conflict was roused in order to

25     eliminate the Muslims."

Page 44991

 1             Moving on to 18449, I asked you in the Krajisnik case wasn't this

 2     another acknowledgement of what was happening to Muslims in Bosnia and

 3     Herzegovina in May, June, and July of 1992.  And your answer was:

 4             "As I am reading this, and as I'm listening to you, memories come

 5     back.  But in Srbac, we ignored this.  We simply deleted this.  This may

 6     be the fact, but now, if you're asking me to remember what was said

 7     12 years ago, it is impossible.  And I adhere to what I said before, that

 8     all the things that followed the inflammatory speeches and the concrete

 9     things that were happening in the life, I was standing firmly on the

10     ground with my two feet and I made sure that life was normal in Srbac."

11             And then I asked you, Mr. Milincic:

12             "... rather than standing firmly with your feet on the ground ...

13     you were standing in Srbac, at best, with your eyes closed and your ears

14     closed and ignoring everything that was happening to the Muslims and the

15     Croats in the Krajina?"

16             And your answer was:

17             "What else could we do?  In Srbac, I mean."

18             And that was your testimony in 2005 to the Krajisnik

19     Trial Chamber, wasn't it, Mr. Milincic?

20        A.   This really looks ridiculous, it sounds ridiculous.  And now

21     you're asking me or telling me that I should have intervened or that I

22     should have been I don't know what.  Who was it who was talking?  Nedic?

23     How should I know what Nedic was saying?  I dealt with my misfortune in

24     the way that I wanted to illustrate.  Everybody was unhappy in their own

25     way.  In Republika Srpska we wanted to save ourselves the best we could.

Page 44992

 1     I don't know what Nedic said.

 2             What could I do in Srbac in order to prevent the escalation of

 3     problems of the kind that happened in other municipalities?  I really

 4     can't help you with that, really.  I stand by the fact and I am repeating

 5     that when the municipalities had to deal with their own problems, I had

 6     my problems.  I went to meetings in Banja Luka in order to find out where

 7     I could find oil, fuel, wood.  I didn't want to pursue municipal

 8     policies.

 9             I may have heard some information, but that wasn't my position,

10     that was not my job.  I couldn't cry.  It was not up to me to sit and

11     cry.  I had to act, I had to work.  You have to understand that I was

12     saying this in order to give you a real picture.  Everybody did things in

13     their own way.

14             Our situation was good.  We had communication with the Croats all

15     the time.  We never discussed that.  I even brought some Croatian

16     newspapers, Arena, who spoke positively about the co-operation between

17     our two municipalities, and that it was really incredible to see things

18     like that happening.

19        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Milincic.

20             MR. TIEGER:  I tender those pages, Mr. President.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this will be added too.

22             MR. TIEGER:  Okay.

23        Q.   And finally, Mr. Milincic, you've painted yourself repeatedly --

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I?

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

Page 44993

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I kindly ask Mr. Tieger to

 2     provide a reference as to where it was that I said that we could not

 3     control their birth rate?  That I said that we could not control their

 4     birth rate.

 5             MR. TIEGER:  I was quoting from the transcript at 18448, and as a

 6     general matter --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we continue.  It's a quote from the

 8     transcript.

 9             MR. TIEGER:  Right.  Thank you, Mr. President.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But that is --

11             JUDGE KWON:  It can be discussed --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's an allegation --

13             JUDGE KWON:  It can be discussed --

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- Mr. Tieger's allegation.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, you can raise it when this is over.

16             MR. TIEGER:

17        Q.   And finally, Mr. Milincic, you have depicted yourself repeatedly

18     as a humanist, concerned wholly with legality, as I understood your

19     testimony.  In fact, if we turn to P921, page 80 of the English and

20     page 55 of the B/C/S, you came out very early for the taking of

21     international personnel as hostages in order to improve the RS situation,

22     didn't you?  At page -- this is the transcript of the 24th Session of the

23     Assembly of Republika Srpska held on the 8th of January, 1993, and I'll

24     quote what you said:

25             "We also have something to blackmail them with.  Homeini, in his

Page 44994

 1     time, held a very small number of Muslims in the American embassy in

 2     Tehran and he sure did shake America quite well.  Well, we also have

 3     enough of those white men or others and that can be used as our weapon."

 4             That's what you advocated to the Assembly at the beginning of

 5     January 1993, didn't you, Mr. Milincic?

 6        A.   I have to help you a bit with that.  This was taken out of

 7     context.  You haven't read out all of it.  I told the story about the

 8     lamb and the wolf there, the fable.  We're always blamed.  Let us do

 9     something so that they understand that they need to talk to us.  And I

10     said:  Let's take some people, let's keep them here.  Maybe they will

11     come to pick them up and then talk to us.  And then you played something

12     two years after my statement of mine -- now, you see when I made this

13     statement, two years in advance, two years before the pilots.  Don't tell

14     me that I was the architect of that idea for the pilots to be taken.

15     Really.  This can be used very wrongly.

16             I said something, but as our people say, they're not taking

17     account of this.  Let's take their people, let's bring them in.  They

18     will come to get them and then we'll talk to them:  Hey, people, we don't

19     want war.  And now two years after that statement of mine in Banja Luka,

20     you are showing those pilots there two years later exactly.  And I

21     chuckled and said:  Are you saying that I was the architect of that idea

22     for arrests, hostages, whatever?  I mean, I was telling this story, this

23     fable about the lamb and the wolf.  It's the lamb's fault for drinking

24     water downstream and you've taken it out of context totally.  We are not

25     being taken seriously.  We want to talk, so if they won't do it in any

Page 44995

 1     other way, let's bring them in by force and then they will come to pick

 2     them up.  And now you are playing this which two years later.  Give me

 3     the time when I said this in Banja Luka and give me the time when this

 4     thing with the pilots happened.

 5        Q.   I didn't mention the word "pilots," Mr. Milincic, but thank you

 6     for raising that.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  I have nothing further, Mr. President.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, because ...

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

10             Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, very briefly, Excellency.

12                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

13        Q.   [Interpretation] Professor, did you ask for your remarks in the

14     Assembly to be translated into some kind of document, that this be

15     considered that way?

16        A.   AR Krajina, is that what you mean?

17        Q.   What was just shown to you, our Assembly.

18        A.   Of course.

19        Q.   Was this just free discussion or did you ask for this to be

20     adopted?  Was there a vote on some proposal of yours?

21        A.   No, no, I took part in this discussion.  I mean, some people even

22     laughed sort of -- well, leave all of that aside, fairy tales, fables,

23     and so on.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25        A.   Well, this was just my discussion out of despair.  If you mean

Page 44996

 1     the wolf and the lamb, oh, yes, yes.  I wanted to say in literary terms

 2     that they are not respecting us and --

 3        Q.   Thank you.  You were asked about things that happened in other

 4     municipalities.  Can you tell us how many incidents there were in your

 5     municipality and who were they aimed against?  Was it only against

 6     non-Serbs?

 7        A.   I mentioned the Malesevics a moment ago, then the Vejinovics,

 8     Kladari, I don't even remember the name of the family.  People were

 9     beaten up, looted -- it's really hard to speak about all these small

10     incidents.  But percentage-wise there were more Serbs, of course, yes,

11     21.000.  Now these people of ours who returned, say came on holiday --

12     Serbs who came on holiday, they were mistreated.  They were robbed, if I

13     can use that word, intimidated, blackmailed, by these so-called heros.

14        Q.   Thank you.  But foreigners don't know on the basis of last names

15     what the ethnic background would be of Malesevic, Vejinovic, et cetera.

16     What was their ethnic background?

17        A.   Serbs.  Malesevic in Gornja Lepenica, Vejinovic in Razboj [phoen]

18     and then a Serb family in Kladari.  So they were the victims of these

19     gangs that would come at night, robbing them, asking for money, fuel,

20     et cetera.

21        Q.   Thank you.  What was the attitude of the authorities against

22     these crimes committed against Serbs, Muslims, Croats?  Did the

23     authorities instigate that, conceal it, or stop it?

24        A.   I personally at the Crisis Staff beseeched, begged, insisted, I

25     said:  These hoodlums who are mistreating innocent people, whoever it may

Page 44997

 1     be, stop them from doing that, don't let them do that, take weapons from

 2     them, bring them in.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  As for what you heard, those rumours, what was

 4     happening in other municipalities in the Krajina, regardless of whether

 5     they were true or not, exaggerated or not, did you have information to

 6     the effect that this was a product of the conduct of the authorities, our

 7     authorities in these municipalities?  What was the attitude of our

 8     authorities towards that?

 9        A.   The authorities dealt with these individuals who were renegades,

10     if I can put it that way, one, two, three.  So there were shoot-outs,

11     there was shooting.  The authorities did not agree with that.  They did

12     not want to justify that.  They opposed it.  They took away their

13     weapons, disarmed them, as I said.  Say they would beat people up, say

14     they'd beat up a Serb and steal his tractor or a Golf car and then say

15     they'd walk on the Golf car, a Serb would do that to another Serb,

16     destroy his car.  That's the kind of situation that would happen then at

17     the time.  I mean, to this day we have such situations in municipalities

18     that people would have this kind of thing happening to them, even today.

19        Q.   [No interpretation]

20             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear

21     Mr. Karadzic's question.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Repeat the number, Mr. Karadzic.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D09746.  Could we have the last

24     paragraph displayed now, 22.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 44998

 1        Q.   You saw there where the Prosecutor stopped.  Can you tell us what

 2     else is contained in this paragraph and that is not stated there, over

 3     there they stopped with a representative of the Serb people?

 4        A.   We did not want a war, that's why we had a plebiscite.  We

 5     thought that the Cutileiro Plan was our salvation.  We were happy that

 6     all of that would be brought to an end; however, we know what happened.

 7     We know what Izetbegovic did --

 8        Q.   Sorry, Professor.  Just tell us this.  Paragraph 22, was all of

 9     it displayed or is there another subparagraph in that paragraph?

10        A.   I cannot find it.

11        Q.   The last paragraph above the witness acknowledgement.

12             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We can no longer hear the

13     witness.

14             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Whenever we'd speak on the phone,

15     you would always suggest to me:  Take this all into account, try to

16     pacify the extremists, protect people's property.  Quite simply, perhaps

17     you have the best conditions, better than other municipalities.  Take

18     refugees in, provide supplies to people.  Those were the things that we

19     mentioned all the time, and through that I saw you as a person who saw

20     that Srbac could be successful in this.  Oppose these adventurers and --

21     I don't know if I got the point here.  We had the best conditions and

22     also this contact with the Croats on the other side.  Srbac as a

23     municipality was a municipality.  It was even suspected a bit by other

24     neighbouring municipalities because --

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 44999

 1        Q.   Could I please ask you to tell us the following --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Just a second, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             I'm asking for planning purposes.  How much longer do you need

 4     for your re-direct?

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Five minutes, Excellency.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  We will rise for two minutes.

 7                           --- Break taken at 2.46 p.m.

 8                           --- On resuming at 2.48 p.m.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, for the remainder of the session, we'll sit --

10     we'll be sitting pursuant to Rule 15 bis, without Judge Lattanzi, who

11     is -- who should attend another meeting.

12             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Can you tell us, Professor Milincic, whether the facts in this

16     statement are correct, truthful?

17        A.   Everything that was said, from the establishment, the questions,

18     the problems I mentioned here, all of that is contained in this

19     statement.

20        Q.   When you say "contained," what do you mean?

21        A.   I mean that they are correct.

22        Q.   Thank you.  This statement, does it reflect truthfully your

23     position with regard to these developments --

24             MR. TIEGER:  No, no, no, it's not appropriate to try to 92 ter

25     this statement.  That's exactly what's going on.  We're going through a

Page 45000

 1     reverse attestation process and that's not appropriate here.

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, this is exactly what we were left

 3     to do after the interventions during the cross-examination, is to show

 4     that the circumstances under which the statement was taken was such that

 5     the information is reliable is not something that was fed to him by the

 6     Defence.  And then we will tender the statement.

 7             MR. TIEGER:  Then he can ask about the one paragraph he was

 8     asking about, that's certainly appropriate.  But to try to bootstrap

 9     impeachment that they consider effective, they need -- to respond to into

10     a basis for introducing the whole statement that has been determined to

11     be largely irrelevant by the Court is clearly inappropriate.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson and Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber is minded

14     to admit paragraph 22 in its entirety of this statement, but if the

15     Defence is going to tender the entire statement in order to show the

16     nature or process how witness statements are being made, Mr. Karadzic

17     should go one paragraph -- each paragraph one by one, how the -- what was

18     the effect and how the paragraph was formulated.

19             At this stage we'll admit paragraph 22 of this document in its

20     entirety.

21             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number D4187, Your Honours.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

23             Could we show paragraph 4.

24             JUDGE KWON:  No, I'm -- I don't think it's a good way to show the

25     paragraph first.

Page 45001

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I already asked about departures

 2     earlier on.  I've already asked about that.

 3             MR. TIEGER:  It's ...

 4                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 5             JUDGE KWON:  I didn't follow you, Mr. Karadzic.  You were going

 6     to re-examine the witness about the departure which was referred to

 7     during the cross-examination of Mr. Tieger or you are going to deal with

 8     the manner and the process how witness statement was prepared?

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, both, Excellencies.  First of

10     all, to establish whether it is the way the Prosecution claims, whether

11     words were put there.  Actually, it's better for me to ask, not to talk

12     about this in front of the witness.  Let me ask the witness and then you

13     will decide what you will admit.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

15             MR. TIEGER:  I didn't cross-examine on the issue of how many

16     Muslims left or didn't leave Srbac.

17             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, I understood departure as departure from

18     the policy, whether SDS departed from the policy in which Mr. Karadzic

19     expressed in the rally or something like that.  I misunderstood.  I

20     didn't see -- I didn't read this para 4.

21             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I don't see why Dr. Karadzic can't

22     display to the witness the paragraph and ask him whether or not --

23             JUDGE KWON:  It's a leading question --

24             MR. ROBINSON:  No, it's not a leading question.  The question

25     would be:  Is this your words or did someone put these words into your

Page 45002

 1     mouth --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, no, you didn't understand my question.  I

 3     asked the purpose of that question was which, but he said:  Yes, both, in

 4     order to elicit the statement -- evidence contained in the statement.  To

 5     show the statement itself is a leading question.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, I think the object here is to

 7     admit certain paragraphs of the statement.  So to do that simply to try

 8     to show whether or not these are his words or whether somebody put words

 9     in his mouth, that's the object of what we're trying to do.  I don't

10     think it's leading to ask:  Is this your words or did someone put this

11     in -- this is not what you said?  If he says it's his words, it shows

12     that the statement itself and the information that was brought to this

13     Court by this witness is his own formulation and not something that was

14     suggested by the Defence.  And that's completely proper in response to

15     what Mr. Tieger has done.

16             JUDGE KWON:  However, having heard the witness's statement that

17     they are his words, I don't think that exercise would help the Chamber at

18     all, whether it --

19             MR. ROBINSON:  But then the Chamber -- what the Chamber has done

20     is exclude our statement, including paragraphs which you acknowledge were

21     relevant to Dr. Karadzic's case, required us to lead the witness live,

22     and then given the Prosecution 100 per cent benefit of what it wanted

23     from the statement while depriving us of the right to have what we want

24     from the statement admitted.

25             MR. TIEGER:  It's not a game.  I mean, it's the Defence that --

Page 45003

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Tieger, you can sit down.

 2                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, the Status Conference will take place at 15.30.

 4     We should withdraw from this courtroom at 1500 hours sharp.  There's a

 5     problem.

 6             We'll allow the question but not today.  We'll continue tomorrow

 7     morning at 9.00.

 8             Mr. Milincic, the hearing is adjourned.

 9                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.00 p.m.,

10                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 12th day of

11                           December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.