Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 45089

 1                           Monday, 16 December 2013

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The accused entered court]

 4                           [The witness takes the stand]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.02 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Good morning, Mr. Veselinovic.

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Technically, your solemn declaration that you made

10     when you appeared for the first time is still valid.  But for reminder, I

11     would like you to take the solemn declaration again.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

13     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

14                           WITNESS:  SVETO VESELINOVIC [Re-called]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Please be seated and make yourself

17     comfortable.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies.  Good

21     morning to everybody.

22                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

23        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Veselinovic.

24        A.   Good morning, President.

25        Q.   Let's just make short pauses between my sentences and yours.  Did

Page 45090

 1     you provide my Defence team an additional statement, a supplemental

 2     statement, that is?

 3        A.   Yes, I did.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 1D49025.  It

 6     shouldn't be broadcast.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Is this the supplemental statement of yours?

 9        A.   Yes, this is the statement.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Does it accurately reflect what you said to my

11     Defence team?

12        A.   Yes, fully.

13        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions today here in the

14     courtroom, would your answers in essence be the same?

15        A.   Yes, they would be.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to

18     tender this statement under seal, and the redacted version of the

19     statement is 1D49050.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No objection.

22             JUDGE KWON:  We'll admit both versions.

23             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D49025 receives

24     Exhibit Number D4191, under seal.  65 ter number 1D49050 receives

25     Exhibit Number D4192.

Page 45091

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 2             Please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 4             And now I'm going to read a short summary of the supplemental

 5     statement provided by Mr. Sveto Veselinovic in English.

 6             [In English] Sveto Veselinovic is testifying at my trial today

 7     for the second time.  After the re-instatement of the genocide charge

 8     contained in Count 1 of the indictment, Mr. Veselinovic has been asked to

 9     comment on the evidence of Prosecution Witness KDZ051, who claimed that

10     in around September 1992, in Rogatica, he asked Mr. Veselinovic what

11     would happen to the Muslims.

12             According to the Witness KDZ051, Mr. Veselinovic responded that

13     the Muslims were going to disappear from the territory and that

14     Mr. Veselinovic had meetings with Radovan Karadzic in Pale and that it

15     had been decided that one-third of Muslims would be killed, one-third

16     would be converted to the Orthodox religion, and a third would leave on

17     their own.

18             Mr. Veselinovic states that he does not know Witness KDZ051 and

19     that he never had such a conversation with Witness KDZ051 or anyone else.

20     He further states that he had never had a conversation with Dr. Karadzic

21     in which it was stated that one-third of Muslims would be killed,

22     one-third would be converted to the Orthodox religion, and a third would

23     leave on their own.

24             Mr. Veselinovic states that he did not see or speak to

25     Dr. Karadzic between January 1992 and the autumn 1993, and that those

Page 45092

 1     sentiments do not represent what he understood to be Dr. Karadzic's views

 2     in any way, shape, or form.  Mr. Veselinovic states that he never had any

 3     indication, directly or indirectly, that Dr. Karadzic favoured the

 4     destruction of the Bosnian Muslims in whole or in part.

 5             [Interpretation] This is a short summary and at this moment I

 6     have no further questions for Mr. Veselinovic.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Gustafson, I take it you requested

 8     45 minutes for your cross-examination?

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Yes, I have, Your Honours.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Please carry on.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you very much.

12                           Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:

13        Q.   Good morning, Mr. Veselinovic.

14        A.   Good morning.

15        Q.   Now, when you testified back in February, I asked you about an

16     article you authored in the "Politika" publication, where you stated:

17             "We have a message for all those who are preparing dirty war

18     plans that the Serbs in Bosnia-Herzegovina are ready and that 1941 will

19     never be repeated."

20             And you confirmed in your examination that your reference to 1941

21     was a reference to the destruction of the Serb people at that time, and

22     you explained that what you meant here was that Serbs "would not be

23     sitting in their houses waiting to be rounded up, taken to camps, and

24     killed."

25             That's at transcript page 33901 to 02.

Page 45093

 1             I take it from this prior evidence that you felt that the Serbs

 2     in Rogatica faced a very serious threat at the time from the Muslim side,

 3     the threat of destruction and genocide; is that right?

 4        A.   Well, the experience from previous years could not exclude that

 5     threat.  Nobody knew for a fact that war would happen the way it did.

 6     All of us expected that the leadership would manage to agree at the end

 7     of the day.  It was end of the 20th century, a period when good reasoning

 8     should reign among the people.  The fact that there were tensions on both

 9     sides did not mean that much.  We thought that it was a good negotiating

10     position for a final agreement; however, we -- were always afraid that

11     the Muslims would not agree to a compromise.  They would look for a

12     maximum and that as a result of that we might be threatened.  The

13     previous experience told us that, and we were aware of that.  Therefore

14     we were ready, and that doesn't mean that we organised ourselves on the

15     other side to take action.  That doesn't mean that we slept fully dressed

16     and we did not wait for them to come and ring our bells.  That means that

17     we knew how to protect ourselves based on the information that we had.

18     That's all.

19        Q.   Okay.  You said that:

20             "Therefore, we were ready but it doesn't mean that we organised

21     ourselves to take action."

22             What you did do in 1991, Mr. Veselinovic, is, with Dr. Karadzic's

23     support you worked to mobilise the Serbs in Rogatica to deal with that

24     threat that you felt existed from the Muslim side; right?

25        A.   We just wanted to help the legitimate authorities of the state

Page 45094

 1     that existed until then to function better.  We tried to help the JNA to

 2     mobilise people and to be able to carry out all those tasks that were

 3     within its purview because Muslims boycotted the JNA, they boycotted

 4     mobilisation efforts; Serbs didn't.  And I'm not saying and I don't think

 5     that the Serbs are the culprits and that our organisation has to take the

 6     blame for advising the Serbs to abide by the rules of the then-Yugoslavia

 7     and the rules of the Yugoslav People's Army.

 8        Q.   Well, Mr. Veselinovic, I'm just going to play you an intercepted

 9     conversation from September 1991 and then ask you a couple of questions

10     about it.

11             MS. GUSTAFSON:  And before it begins, the English is subtitled on

12     the intercept so I don't believe there's any need to translate it.

13             Sorry, this is Exhibit P3406.

14                           [Video-clip played]

15             THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Female NN:  Yes, can I help you?

16             "Sveto:  Tell me, may I talk to Dr. Karadzic?

17             "Female NN:  What did you say your name was, Sveto, right?

18             "Sveto:  Yes.

19             "Male NN:  Hello Sveto.

20             "Sveto:  Tell me.

21             "Male NN:  Could you wait for just a moment.  The doctor is on

22     the other line.

23             "Sveto:  Okay.

24             "Male NN:  How is it over there towards Visegrad?

25             "Sveto:  Well, so-so.

Page 45095

 1             "Male NN:  Is that so?

 2             "Sveto:  No, I heard that Serbia is in danger.  Serbia is in

 3     danger and they won't stop until they reduce it to the size of the

 4     Belgrade pashalik.

 5             "Male NN:  He's about to finish this, he'll be with you in just a

 6     moment.

 7             "Sveto:  Is there anything else?  Okay.  Thank you.  Thank you.

 8     Good-bye."

 9             THE INTERPRETER:  We can hear the background conversation but we

10     cannot understand.

11             [Voiceover] "Radovan Karadzic:  Thank you.  Good-bye.  Hello?

12             "Sveto:  Good afternoon.

13             "Radovan Karadzic:  Good afternoon, Sveto.

14             "Sveto:  Doctor, Risto told me to call you.

15             "Radovan Karadzic:  We should be in touch all the time.  What's

16     the situation up there?

17             "Sveto:  Well, so, so.  It's God knows what.  Those from

18     Han Pijesak, our reservists have taken our positions from Rogatica to

19     Mesici.

20             "Radovan Karadzic:  Aha.

21             "Sveto:  In Rogatica reserve police forces are getting mobilised.

22             "Radovan Karadzic:  Good.

23             "Sveto:  We have sent our men to join the reserve forces as

24     well ...

25             "Radovan Karadzic:  By all means.

Page 45096

 1             "Sveto:  So that they don't do something stupid to us, surprise

 2     us.

 3             "Radovan Karadzic:  Absolutely.  Definitely.

 4             "Sveto:  We're ready.  We're waiting to see what happens next.

 5             "Radovan Karadzic:  Can you help Visegrad?

 6             "Sveto:  We can.

 7             "Radovan Karadzic:  Do that, get in touch and let them take up

 8     positions at Sjemec up there, let them prepare to help Visegrad.  Because

 9     if they start the war, they'll start it against the people and against

10     the army.

11             "Sveto:  Yes, I've already agreed to meet with Brano at Sjemec.

12             "Radovan Karadzic:  Aha.  Good.  It should -- and the column is

13     waiting there.  60 vehicles.  Tomorrow the column is going to be

14     enormous.  It will take several kilometres to pass through Visegrad

15     because the army won't yield.  Are you in touch?  Look, Zoran Vujovic

16     can't get through to you at all.  Please call him.  He said that some man

17     at the number that you had given him would not talk to him.

18             "Sveto:  I know nothing about it.

19             "Radovan Karadzic:  Who's that?

20             "Sveto:  I don't know at all.

21             "Radovan Karadzic:  I beg your pardon?

22             "Sveto:  Well, I don't know anything either.  Me neither ...

23             "Radovan Karadzic:  The number you gave out --

24             "Sveto:  He must have taken down the wrong number.

25             "Radovan Karadzic:  Aha.  You see he may taken the wrong number.

Page 45097

 1     Tell me what is your situation.  If it is difficult should we send from

 2     somewhere else to help you?

 3             "Sveto:  No, no need for now, no need for right now.  At Sjemec,

 4     we will prepare it all for helping them if necessary.  This evening Brano

 5     and I will meet up here.

 6             "Radovan Karadzic:  Aha, yes, yes.  Good.  And the police should

 7     help too.  They'll co-operate with the police for as long as they are

 8     treating the military properly.  You mustn't do anything against the

 9     military.  No discussion.  The army must pass through Visegrad.

10             "Sveto:  Shall we --

11             "Radovan Karadzic:  The army is not going to clean up.  They'll

12     destroy Visegrad, they will not give in.  So they should know that.

13             "Sveto:  Will the military now turn across Sjemec?  It's critical

14     down there through the tunnels.

15             "Radovan Karadzic:  It's critical through the tunnels, is it.

16             "Sveto:  ... eight tunnels.  They can place it anywhere ... in

17     the tunnel, destroy the first transporter and block it.

18             "Radovan Karadzic:  Aha, good.  Call Zoran, call the garrison in

19     Uzice and suggest that they should go across Sjemec.  However, they still

20     have to go through Visegrad; right?

21             "Sveto:  They don't have to.

22             "Radovan Karadzic:  They don't have to, instead ...

23             "Sveto:  Via Rogatica, to Ustipraca and Gorazde.

24             "Radovan Karadzic:  How come they can't go to Visegrad?  Where

25     will they cross the river?

Page 45098

 1             "Sveto:  Well, in Ustipraca.  They're bypassing Visegrad.

 2             "Radovan Karadzic:  Good.

 3             "Sveto:  They're bypassing through Medjedja.

 4             "Radovan Karadzic:  Aha.

 5             "Sveto:  The Drina canyon.

 6             "Radovan Karadzic:  Good.  And where are they going to cross the

 7     Drina River?

 8             "Sveto:  Across Drina, they'll cross Drina in Ustipraca.  It's

 9     12 kilometres between Ustipraca and Gorazde.  No tunnels, no attacks.

10             "Radovan Karadzic:  So it was him who was shooting from that side

11     of the river, is it?

12             "Sveto:  Yes.

13             "Radovan Karadzic:  In Rudo, is it?  Not Rudo but --

14             "Sveto:  No, no.  From Visegrad go across Sjemec, across Borik to

15     Rogatica, and from Rogatica to Gorazde.

16             "Radovan Karadzic:  Well, okay, but you have to go through

17     Visegrad?

18             "Sveto:  You don't.

19             "Radovan Karadzic:  You don't?

20             "Sveto:  In fact, you do, yes.

21             "Radovan Karadzic:  Well, you have to go through Visegrad.

22             "Sveto:  You have to go through Visegrad.

23             "Radovan Karadzic:  You secure Visegrad because that's the narrow

24     point, and then the rest, let them decide to go across Sjemec.

25             "Sveto:  Yes.

Page 45099

 1             "Radovan Karadzic:  Get in touch with ... you have to get in

 2     touch with the garrison and with this -- and they're looking for you.

 3     They cannot get through to you in any way.  Is Kusic there somewhere?

 4             "Sveto:  Doctor, Kusic is down-town somewhere.

 5             "Radovan Karadzic:  Okay.  And where are you?

 6             "Sveto:  I'm at home at the moment.

 7             "Radovan Karadzic:  Aha.  Come on, please do that and make sure

 8     that they provide duty service over there.

 9             "Sveto:  Everything has been provided as far as it concerns our

10     work.

11             "Radovan Karadzic:  And the full, full, full mobility of the

12     party.  A full mobility of everything, all the forces that you have,

13     everything you have.  If necessary, add the Romanija forces too.

14             "Sveto:  Okay, boss.

15             "Radovan Karadzic:  All right.

16             "Sveto:  All right.  Agreed."

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:

18        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, this person named Sveto calling Dr. Karadzic

19     from Rogatica, that's you; right?

20        A.   My name is Sveto.  I'm from Rogatica.  Honestly, I forgot about

21     this conversation.  I can't remember.  Can you help me and tell me the

22     date of that conversation.

23        Q.   It's from the 20th of September, 1991.

24        A.   Very well.  I don't remember.  I've heard everything now and I

25     don't see anything in dispute here.  What we did was to enable the

Page 45100

 1     Yugoslav People's Army to do their work.  They were a legitimate army in

 2     the state with whose integrity it protected.

 3        Q.   Now, Mr. Veselinovic, just to be clear, this Sveto is clearly an

 4     SDS member because at the end of the intercept Dr. Karadzic says:

 5             "And a full, full, full mobility of the party.  A full mobility

 6     of everything, all the forces that you have, everything you have."

 7             And Sveto responds:

 8             "Okay, boss."

 9             Now, you were the president of the SDS in Rogatica at the time.

10     This Sveto is clearly you talking to Dr. Karadzic, isn't it?

11        A.   Most probably, most probably.  I'm Sveto from Rogatica.  I'm

12     saying I don't remember the details of this conversation; however, I

13     don't see in this conversation what you claim, that President Karadzic

14     sent me a message to kill one-third, to baptise the other third, and to

15     expel the last third --

16             JUDGE KWON:  No, Mr. Veselinovic, the question is whether -- not

17     whether there's anything disputable, but whether you confirm that's you

18     that had a talk with Mr. Karadzic at the time in this intercept.  So this

19     Sveto is yourself, do you agree?

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, let me say that I agree.  I'm

21     Sveto from Rogatica.  I believe that the voices belong to me and

22     Mr. Karadzic, judging by the timbre of the voice and the way we speak,

23     yes.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Thank you.  And in this conversation, you state that the reserve

Page 45101

 1     police forces in Rogatica are getting mobilised.  You state that you have

 2     sent "our men" to join the reserve forces as well.  And then Karadzic, as

 3     I noted, orders full mobility of the party, full mobility of everything,

 4     all the forces that you have, everything you have.  And you say:

 5             "Okay, boss."

 6             Those are all references to your efforts supported by

 7     Dr. Karadzic to mobilise the Serbs in Rogatica to deal with the threat

 8     that you consider to be coming from the Muslim side; right?

 9        A.   Why are you mentioning Srebrenica?  This was in 1991, when

10     Muslims boycotted the calls to come to the manoeuvres of the JNA.  Last

11     time I showed you documents in which you could see that, on behalf of the

12     SDS, we invited the Serbian people to respond and come to the manoeuvres

13     of the JNA in Han Pijesak.  That unit was deployed there at the end of

14     1991 and the beginning of 1992.  One part of that unit was in Sjemec and

15     the other part was in the brigade.  So there's nothing in dispute here.

16             We invited the Serbs to accept the boycott of the response to

17     join the JNA because when the Muslims boycotted the JNA and did not want

18     to join the manoeuvres, there was a --

19        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic --

20        A.   -- fear that if the Serbs responded and joined the manoeuvres,

21     the villages would remain empty.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There are a lot of problems with

23     the transcript.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:

25        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, I'd like to move on now to 1992.  The Chamber

Page 45102

 1     has --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 3             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You -- does it mean that you have difficulty with

 5     the transcript or there's a translation issue?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I am now reconnected.  Things are

 7     not being recorded.  A lot of things are not recorded.  The Prosecutor

 8     did not mention "Srebrenica," however, the witness received the word

 9     "Srebrenica" in interpretation.  On page 5, line 10, he said:  We learned

10     from the experiences of 1941.  And now page 12, line 11, it should read

11     that the Serbian villages would remain empty.  There was a fear that the

12     Serbian villages would remain empty.  This should be recorded on line

13     11 -- I can see that this was indeed repeated.  I apologise.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, it appears in line 12 and 13 -- 13 and 14 and

15     that's when you interrupted.

16             Shall we continue?

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:

18        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, the Chamber has received evidence from numerous

19     witnesses including Mile Ujic, who was the artillery co-ordinator for the

20     Rogatica Brigade, that on the 22nd of May, 1992, the Rogatica Brigade

21     conducted a major shelling attack on Muslim-populated parts of the

22     municipality, referred to at transcript page 33460.

23             Now, you don't deny that that attack took place, do you?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, objection, Mr. President.

25     Mr. President, since this witness is now testifying for the second time,

Page 45103

 1     it's our position that the cross-examination should not be allowed to go

 2     back over issues that were part of his original testimony or that were

 3     within the scope of his original testimony, but should be limited to the

 4     statement allegedly made by KDZ051 or any issues relating to credibility

 5     as to whether or not that statement was made.  But to go and rehash the

 6     events in Rogatica with this witness I would suggest is not proper.

 7             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Well, Your Honours, I'm really focused on

 8     paragraphs 6 and 7 of the witness's statement, where he makes some broad

 9     assertions about his conclusions as to Dr. Karadzic's views and policies.

10     I am dealing with that through a number of steps.  I will conclude by

11     addressing that directly, but I'm building up to that and I could go into

12     it further, but I'm reluctant to do so in front of the witness.  I could

13     do that in more detail, if you wish, if the witness would be excused.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So your submission is while you agree with

15     Mr. Robinson's observation in principle, but you are dealing with

16     paragraphs 6 and 7 --

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's right.

18             JUDGE KWON:  -- of this revised -- new statement?

19             MS. GUSTAFSON:  That's correct.

20                           [Trial Chamber confers]

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll allow you to continue.  Please continue.

22             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.

23        Q.   Now, Mr. Veselinovic, you don't deny that the Rogatica Brigade on

24     the 22nd of May, 1992, conducted a major shelling attack on

25     Muslim-populated parts of the municipality, do you?

Page 45104

 1        A.   I stand by what I said in my last statement.  As far as I

 2     remember, 22nd May was the day when the Muslim forces killed a Serb,

 3     Drazen Mihajlovic, and that was the day the conflict began.  They did not

 4     let the body of the dead man be collected, and that was the day when our

 5     president of the Crisis Staff made contact with them.  And they said when

 6     after that man they kill another ten Serbs, only then would they allow

 7     the bodies to be retrieved.  An operation was launched to get that body

 8     back.  I don't know what Mile Ujic did, but I believe that was the day

 9     when a clash occurred between the two sides and there were losses - I

10     don't know if only on one side or on both.  That's when all contact

11     between the Serb and Muslim sides ceased and general chaos began.  And

12     the initial reason was precisely the murder of Drazen Mihajlovic on that

13     day, 22nd of May.

14        Q.   You're not really answering my question.  You said that an

15     operation was launched to get that body back, referring to the body of

16     Mihajlovic.  That operation involved shelling Muslim-populated parts of

17     the municipality.  You must have remembered that, there was a major

18     shelling attack.  You must have seen it or heard it or at least heard of

19     it; right?

20        A.   I remember that.  I remember that.  I remember the murder of

21     Drazen Mihajlovic, which caused a massive conflict between the two sides,

22     whether it was on that day or the following day, the Serb forces did

23     retrieve the body of Mihajlovic.  How?  I don't know.  I don't know in

24     what way they did that.  I was not involved in those operations.  I was

25     never involved in combat during the whole war.  All I know about it is

Page 45105

 1     what Mile Ujic told me.  And I'm not a military expert to be able to

 2     explain to you here whether there was shelling and how many shells were

 3     fired from a 72- or 92-mortar, what weapons were artillery weapons or

 4     otherwise.  All I know is that that's when the fighting began.

 5        Q.   Okay.  And the Chamber has also heard evidence that these attacks

 6     on Muslim areas in Rogatica during the summer of 1992, caused Muslims

 7     living in those places to flee.  And I refer to KDZ607, P3289,

 8     paragraphs 11 and 12; and Mile Ujic again at 33466 to 33467.  Now, you

 9     must have known that large numbers of Muslims were fleeing their homes

10     and villages from these attacks; right?

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I wonder if the question should be

12     put that way, enumerating exhibits.  Why not show them to the witness?

13             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, the references are for the parties and the

14     Court.  The question's fair.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] What was shelled was the area where

16     the soldier Mihajlovic had been killed.  Now, to what extent there were

17     Muslim villages there, there probably were some, but at that time there

18     were no Serbs left in town either.  It was divided.  On one side, the

19     Serb population was concentrated; on the other side were Muslims.  At

20     that time, there were already refugees from the area of Gorazde --

21             MS. GUSTAFSON:

22        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, I'm going to interrupt you.

23        A.   -- and in other towns chaos had reigned for some time already --

24        Q.   I'm interrupting you because you're not responding to my

25     question.  Are you telling me that you were unaware of the fact that

Page 45106

 1     Muslims during the summer of 1992 were fleeing their homes and villages

 2     which were being attacked by the army?  You're totally unaware of that

 3     fact?

 4        A.   The army did not attack Muslim villages without any reason.  The

 5     army was fighting Muslim military forces.  I don't know what you're

 6     trying to put to me.  Are you trying to say that Muslims were living

 7     peacefully and then some Serbs came and shelled them and opened fire at

 8     them?  There were Muslim forces in Muslim villages in Muslim areas and

 9     Serb forces were in Serb areas.  After that murder a clash started.  On

10     one side Serbs whenever defeated would flee from their areas, and in the

11     town itself there were no Serbs left, although it had been a 60 per cent

12     Serb town, full of Serb houses.  And after that clash, the Muslims

13     started leaving their areas.  I'm not saying they didn't, and I said in

14     my previous statement that at that time I spoke to the refugees, I was

15     the first to come into town to inspect abandoned housing, and that I

16     accommodated --

17        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic --

18        A.   -- Serb refugees from Gorazde in those abandoned houses --

19        Q.   I'm interrupting you again because you're moving away from the

20     question, and if I could ask you to please focus on my questions as

21     precisely as you can.

22             Okay.  The Chamber's also received a great deal of evidence of

23     Serb soldiers capturing, detaining, and expelling Muslim civilians from

24     Rogatica.  And I would refer, for example, to the evidence of Bazdar at

25     P3286, page 4; Pasic, P59, pages 860 to 875; Mr. Hurko, P3267,

Page 45107

 1     paragraphs 14 to 22; and Mr. Isakovic, P127, pages 4 to 5.  You were

 2     aware that that was happening at the time?

 3        A.   I don't know what evidence you have before this Court, but I'm

 4     telling you it's not the way you are describing it.  There was a war.

 5     There was fighting against the Muslim army.  Muslim soldiers were being

 6     captured, they were being fired at.  Areas were being mopped up from

 7     their army.  They launched attacks, we launched counter-attacks.  So it's

 8     absolutely not the lop-sided way you are trying to get me to describe it.

 9             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we have P6153, please.

10        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, this is a Drina Corps report to the

11     Eastern Bosnian Corps command, containing a list of captured persons of

12     Muslim ethnicity in the areas of Rogatica, Visegrad, Rudo, Cajnice, and

13     Foca.  And you can see that the first list pertains to Rogatica, and I

14     think you would agree with me that the first 16 names on this list are

15     all Muslim women; right?

16        A.   Yes, Muslim names, women's names.

17        Q.   Now, a moment ago you claimed that -- when I put to you that

18     Muslim civilians were being detained, you said Muslim soldiers were being

19     captured.  Now, you don't contend seriously that these Muslim women, most

20     of whom were elderly and, in fact, one of them was 101 years old at the

21     time, were Muslim soldiers, do you?

22        A.   I'm not contending they were soldiers, but they probably happened

23     to be in a combat zone.  They were probably -- I mean, both sides, when

24     they were fighting, they were fighting in their own villages where women

25     and children also lived.  When you enter an area, it's quite natural that

Page 45108

 1     you will find all sorts of people there, the soldiers and non-combatants,

 2     and soldiers who had simply cast away their weapons and dressed as

 3     civilians.  And of course, you would remove the civilians to protect them

 4     from further conflict.

 5             I don't know what was going on here.  I had no contact with the

 6     corps, with the army.  I don't know about the fate of these civilians or

 7     why they were arrested.  But the fact is there was no front line here, no

 8     proper front line where there would be only army troops holding positions

 9     and fighting.  The war was being waged in villages where there were women

10     and children and the elderly.  These women must have been evacuated from

11     a combat zone.

12        Q.   Okay.  You said you didn't know what was going on here, you had

13     no contact with the corps.  You are probably aware that in recent years,

14     the Bosnian state court has convicted a number of members of the

15     Rogatica Brigade for killing, detaining, expelling, and mistreating

16     Muslims in Rogatica.  And I refer to P6106, P6107, and D1665.  Do you

17     know about that?

18        A.   Yes, I know about that and all the people from Rogatica who had

19     been convicted, I know about that.  I know what they had been charged

20     with, what they were convicted for.  Those were individual crimes they

21     had committed and they were judged for them.  Of course they should not

22     have done that, and as far as I know, they did not have orders to do that

23     from superior commands, especially not from President Karadzic.

24             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Could we go to P988, please.  And I'd like

25     page 68 of the English and page 87 of the B/C/S.

Page 45109

 1        Q.   And this is approximately -- if you could look approximately

 2     two-thirds of the way down the page in the B/C/S and right at the bottom

 3     of the page in English.  Mr. Veselinovic, this is a transcript from the

 4     28th of August, 1995, Assembly and it's Dr. Karadzic speaking.  And

 5     approximately two-thirds of the way down the page he says:

 6             "To tell the truth, there are towns that we grabbed for ourselves

 7     and there were only 30 per cent of us ..."

 8             And if we could turn the page in the English.

 9             "I can name as many of those as you want, but we cannot give up

10     the towns where we made up 70 per cent.  Don't let this get around, but

11     remember how many of us there were in Bratunac, how many in Srebrenica,

12     how many in Visegrad, how many in Rogatica, how many in Vlasenica, in

13     Zvornik, et cetera.  Due to strategic importance, they had to become

14     ours, and no one is practically questioning it anymore ..."

15             Now, when Dr. Karadzic says "don't let this get around but

16     remember how many of us there were in" places including Rogatica, he's

17     referring to the dramatic demographic transformation in these areas?  And

18     in fact, the Serbs used to be a minority in Rogatica and these other

19     places, but that's no longer the case in August of 1995; right?

20        A.   If I look at the entire municipality of Rogatica, there were

21     about 40 per cent Serbs, I think, but if we separate from Rogatica Zepa,

22     which at that time had 6- to 7.000 population and which remained all the

23     way up to 1995 an area controlled by the Muslim forces, that Zepa, when

24     we separate it from the total population, considerably increases the

25     population numbers in the municipality of Rogatica.  So if we take Zepa

Page 45110

 1     away, the ethnic composition in Rogatica would be half/half between Serbs

 2     and Muslims.  And Zepa is an area that belongs to Rogatica municipality,

 3     but when you cross Sjemec and Borika you get to Zepa and it's in a valley

 4     closer to the Drina River and before the war it didn't have even a paved

 5     road.  There was a macadam road that connected it --

 6        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic --

 7        A.   -- with Rogatica and with the Visegrad area.  There's the

 8     Drina River area separating it from Visegrad.

 9        Q.   Mr. Veselinovic, this speech is made on the 28th of August, 1995,

10     Zepa had fallen.  There were no more Muslims left in Zepa and there were

11     certainly no -- very few Muslims left in the remainder of the

12     municipality; right?

13        A.   Yes, when this Assembly session took place there were very few

14     Muslims.  In fact, there were almost none in Rogatica municipality.

15        Q.   And when Dr. Karadzic says:

16             "Due to strategic importance they had to become ours ..." and he

17     includes Rogatica in that list, he is connecting the demographic

18     transformation to the strategic importance of these places; in other

19     words, the demographic transformation of Rogatica ensured the Bosnian

20     Serb leadership's hold on this strategically important municipality.

21     Isn't that right?

22        A.   That's a fact.  The Serbian leadership remained in power in

23     Rogatica.  Now, what Dr. Karadzic understood by strategically important,

24     probably cutting off that green transversal, the connection with Sandzak,

25     and separating Serb people on the one side of the Drina and the Serbs on

Page 45111

 1     the other side of the Drina, meaning in Serbia, then Yugoslavia.  But if

 2     we add up all the areas, Rogatica, Visegrad, Foca, Srebrenica, the total

 3     population was less than the number of Serbs in Sarajevo.  And in 1995,

 4     there was not a single Serb in Sarajevo.  So the war had brought about

 5     shifts of population, that's a fact.  The territories controlled by Serbs

 6     at that time were mono-ethnic and the areas controlled by the Muslims

 7     were mono-ethnic Muslim and there were no Serbs in those areas.

 8        Q.   And, Mr. Veselinovic, that was no accident, was it?  The acts of

 9     the Rogatica Brigade in 1992, the killings, the expulsions, the

10     mistreatment, those acts furthered Dr. Karadzic and the Bosnian Serb

11     leadership's policy to transform the demographics of Rogatica, the

12     strategically important municipality in their eyes, didn't it?

13        A.   That's what you think.  I'm telling you again, there was a war

14     going on.  On one side there were Serbs who wanted to preserve the

15     existing state of Yugoslavia.  On the other side, the idea of the Muslims

16     was to create their own state, to secede from Yugoslavia, and such two

17     different concepts, such diverging concepts, led to the break-up of

18     Yugoslavia.  The Muslims did not want to agree to anything, which is

19     proven by the fact that Izetbegovic reneged on his signature on the

20     Lisbon Agreement and the Serbs took power in that municipality.  In some

21     other municipalities, the Muslims took power.  I cannot accept it when

22     you say that Muslims were the only ones who tortured, killed, and

23     expulsed.  No, it's not the way it happened.

24        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Veselinovic.  I have nothing further.  However,

25     I'd just -- I don't know whether it was a mistake in the translation or

Page 45112

 1     whether you misspoke.  But the last line says:

 2             "I cannot accept it when you say that Muslims were the only ones

 3     who tortured, killed, and expelled" --

 4             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's apologies, it was Serbs.  Sorry.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Thank you.  That clarifies that matter.

 6        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Veselinovic.

 7        A.   Welcome.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Excellency.

10                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

11        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Veselinovic, on page 22 it was put to you

12     that the Serb side wanted to re-design the ethnic picture of Rogatica.

13     Can you tell us, was there any talk about establishing the Serb

14     municipality of Rogatica and the Muslim municipality of Rogatica, and

15     that Muslims were able to keep their villages and their parts of the

16     town --

17             MS. GUSTAFSON:  This is leading.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'll rephrase.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Were there any negotiations about creating two municipalities?

22        A.   That's what I testified when I was here last time.  We had

23     invested huge efforts in resolving the problems in Rogatica so as to

24     avoid conflict.  Our idea was to divide the municipality into Serb and

25     Muslim parts only by administrative lines so that two municipalities

Page 45113

 1     would operate side by side until the end of the conflict.  The Muslims

 2     had agreed to that.  We had been working on that, and we had even shown a

 3     map here depicting this division of the territory that had been verified

 4     by our common Assembly, where the Muslim deputies were in the majority.

 5     Great efforts had been made, but they were later annulled by the Muslim

 6     leadership who had forbidden local Muslims to continue negotiating with

 7     us.  And then Izetbegovic, withdrawing his signature from the Lisbon

 8     Agreement, put an end to our efforts on the local level to divide the

 9     municipality and avoid conflict.  So there were no pressures from the

10     Serb side.  There was no intention to make Rogatica a purely Serb area

11     where there would be no Muslims.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you tell us -- can you tell us about your career,

13     where did you work?

14        A.   Before the war I worked in the municipal administration of social

15     revenues as a member of the Executive Board.

16        Q.   Thank you.  Was the personal income of employees recorded

17     somewhere?  Was there a payroll?

18        A.   Yes, like in every organisation, every enterprise.  There were

19     log-books of personal incomes for every employee, and every month the

20     salary of every employee would be recorded against his names, including

21     all the contributions and withdrawals.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show the witness 1D49037

23     without broadcasting it.  Thank you.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   Could you please tell us what it is that we have in front of us,

Page 45114

 1     and does this have to do with KDZ051?  What's the year?  What's the

 2     month?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             Yes, Ms. Gustafson.

 5             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Sorry, I'm not sure what these -- where this line

 6     of questioning is exactly heading, but I don't think it has anything to

 7     do with the cross-examination.  I didn't mention KDZ051 at all.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, that's correct.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But, Excellencies, everything here

10     is based on the false testimony of KDZ051, and that's why we called this

11     witness because --

12             JUDGE KWON:  You should have raised it in your direct

13     examination, not in your re-examination.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I got this document during the

15     cross-examination.  I got it right now.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow.  You got it during your

17     cross-examination -- during cross-examination of Ms. Gustafson?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, the municipality sent this.  I

19     got it just now.

20             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow -- I don't understand, Mr. Karadzic.

21     Municipality sent it while Ms. Gustafson was cross-examining this

22     witness?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I believe that they sent it during

24     my examination but it arrived later on.  You see, it doesn't even have an

25     ERN number.  It is a completely new document, fresh.  I didn't receive it

Page 45115

 1     before the cross started.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  If Mr. Robinson could assist us in this regard.

 3             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, I think our case manager got

 4     this document this morning before the examination started and we told him

 5     to put it in e-court, and it's possible that Dr. Karadzic didn't see it

 6     until the examination began.  And I would agree that it doesn't arise

 7     from the cross-examination and I would also point out that I'm struggling

 8     to find out the relevance of the entire cross-examination when the

 9     witness was brought here to testify about the statement of this witness

10     and -- of KDZ051.  And there's no charge of genocide in Rogatica even in

11     the indictment.  So the only relevant information should be concerning

12     whether this statement was made and it seems to me that the Prosecution

13     has not contested that in the least bit that the witness never made such

14     a statement, they never alluded to anybody who saw him at the school

15     where the witness was, they never alluded to anyone who ever heard him

16     repeat such things.  And so the cross-examination doesn't contest the

17     basic elements of the statement.  That being said, I don't think that

18     Dr. Karadzic needs to use this document either.

19                           [Trial Chamber confers]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

21             Mr. Karadzic, please move on to another topic.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Just one question, Mr. Veselinovic.  Do you happen to know from

24     what time and from what country this formula of three-thirds stems from,

25     one-third should be killed, one-third should be baptised, and one-third

Page 45116

 1     should be expelled?

 2        A.   Well, yes, I researched this on the internet.  1882, Russia, when

 3     Russians were expelling Jews and it was revived with the slogan:  Serbs

 4     should be hanged on willow trees in the Ustasha regime.  And Mile Budak,

 5     who was a minister in the Independent State of Croatia in 1941, he

 6     launched that slogan.  And under that slogan, only in Jasenovac over

 7     600.000 Serbs were killed as well as Jews and Roma.  So the slogan which

 8     is shameful for the Serbs, no Serb would ever use it as their motto

 9     because we know full well and we felt this on our own skin, all the

10     horrors of that slogan.  If before our judiciary any witness were to

11     mention what this witness said, believe me, they would have just laughed

12     because there is no way the Serbs could have used anything that meant the

13     mass killing of Serbs during the Second World War.

14        Q.   Thank you.  I have no further questions, Mr. Veselinovic.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             That concludes your second testimony, Mr. Veselinovic.  Thank you

17     again for your coming to The Hague to give it.  Please have a safe

18     journey back home.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you too.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21                           [The witness withdrew]

22             JUDGE KWON:  There's an issue with respect to an exhibit number

23     from the Registry.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  65 ter number 1D49025 receives Exhibit Number

25     D4193, under seal.  My apologies, Your Honours.

Page 45117

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Kovacevic is ready?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  While he's coming in, I

 3     apologise to the Trial Chamber, the fact that he wasn't ready on the last

 4     week was completely my fault.  I had omitted him from the production

 5     schedule that I had sent -- the last one that I had sent to the

 6     Victims and Witnesses Section.  So that's -- it wasn't their fault at all

 7     that he wasn't brought, but it was mine.  Thank you.

 8                           [The witness entered court]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Could the witness make the solemn declaration,

10     please.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

12     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

13                           WITNESS:  SVETO KOVACEVIC

14                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Kovacevic.  Please be seated and make

16     yourself comfortable.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Before you commence your evidence, Mr. Kovacevic, I

19     must draw your attention to a certain rule of evidence that we have here

20     at the International Tribunal, that is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you

21     may object to answering any question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor,

22     or even from the Judges if you believe that your answer might incriminate

23     you in a criminal offence.  In this context, "incriminate" means saying

24     something that might amount to an admission of guilt for a criminal

25     offence or saying something that might provide evidence that you might

Page 45118

 1     have committed a criminal offence.  However, should you think that an

 2     answer might incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer

 3     the question, I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to

 4     compel you to answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal

 5     would ensure that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would

 6     not be used in any case that might be laid against you for any offence,

 7     save and except the offence of giving false testimony.  Do you understand

 8     that, Mr. Kovacevic?

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

11                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

12        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Kovacevic.

13        A.   Good morning, Mr. President.

14        Q.   I have to remind myself and you to pause between our questions

15     and answers.  Also, let us speak slowly so that our sentences would be

16     recorded in the transcript.  Did you give a statement to my Defence team?

17        A.   Yes.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

19     1D9542 in e-court.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you see that statement of yours on the screen?

22        A.   Yes, of course.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed this statement?

24        A.   Last page, please.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the last page please be shown

Page 45119

 1     to the witness.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that's right.  This is my

 3     statement.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Thank you.  Does the statement faithfully reflect what you said

 6     to the Defence team?  Are there any inaccuracies that should be changed?

 7        A.   Basically it is the same.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today,

 9     would your answers be the same as those contained in this statement?

10        A.   Yes, of course, basically they would be the same.

11        Q.   Thank you.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this

13     statement according to Rule 92 ter.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objection, Ms. Sutherland?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Good morning, Your Honours.  No.

16             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number D4194, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             Now I'm going to read out in the English language a summary of

22     Mr. Sveto Kovacevic's statement.

23             [In English] Sveto Kovacevic was elected president of the

24     Celinac Municipal Assembly.  He was a member of the SDS since the

25     formation of the municipal board in Celinac in June 1990 and a member of

Page 45120

 1     the Main Board since the SDS Assembly on 12th of July, 1991.

 2             The key programme goals of the SDS were the preservation of

 3     Yugoslavia and the equality of the Serbian people in BH.  The SDS

 4     leadership was in favour of resolving political issues through agreement

 5     between political representatives of all the peoples.  The SDS adopted a

 6     decision to freeze the work of the party from May 1992 to February 1993.

 7     The work was renewed at the Jahorina plenum, when it was decided that all

 8     the organs of the SDS should step up activity in order to strengthen

 9     national unity and prevent any form of extremism.

10             After frequent abuse of voting system by the coalition of Muslims

11     and Croats, the culmination of the imposition of their will was the

12     decision to call a referendum for a sovereign and independent BH.  On

13     April the 4th, 1992, the Rump Presidency of BH declared the mobilisation

14     of its military and paramilitary formations and formed Crisis Staffs at

15     the different levels.  Later, Crisis Staffs were also formed in a number

16     of municipalities and local communes under Serbian control.

17             President Karadzic was the key man in the peace process and

18     insisted on the respect of laws.  President Karadzic never uttered a

19     single word at any of the sessions which referred to crimes, nor signed

20     any decisions to commit a crime against anyone.  When several Muslim

21     houses were torched in the municipality of Celinac, Dr. Karadzic

22     immediately took interest in whether the perpetrators had been brought to

23     justice.

24             The Municipal Assembly of Celinac was constituted on

25     19th of December, 1990.  Since less than 10 per cent of the population of

Page 45121

 1     Celinac municipality was Muslims, the SDS could have formed the municipal

 2     government independently, but decided not to do so and the composition of

 3     the Municipal Assembly was based on the election results.  Life in the

 4     municipality from 1990 to 1992 was as difficult for the majority Serbian

 5     as for the other two nationalities.  In order to deal with the problems

 6     that most affected the population, the Crisis Staff was formed in

 7     May 1992.  The Crisis Staff was independent and did not receive any

 8     instructions from the SDS leadership.

 9             The first major incident in Celinac happened in August 1992, when

10     a group of Serbs started riots in response to the killing of a group of

11     Serbian soldiers of the Celinac Brigade at the Vlasic front.  Several

12     houses were set on fire and, as a consequence, the Muslims expressed

13     their wish to leave the municipality.  Mr. Kovacevic managed to calm the

14     situation and to keep them in their homes and did so by informing the

15     police and by declaring a curfew.  All the participants in the torching,

16     killings, and riots were arrested and brought to trial.

17             The founding Assembly of the community of municipalities of

18     Bosnian Krajina was held on 25th of April, 1991, in Celinac.

19     Representatives of the SDS, SDA, and HDZ of Bosanska Krajina were also

20     invited as well as the opposite parties.  After several months, the

21     community of municipalities was renamed the Autonomous Region of Krajina.

22     The leadership in Pale did not have any influence on the formation of the

23     ARK.  President Karadzic was not in favour of the formation of the ARK.

24     He did not attend a single session in the ARK, and he did not have an

25     influence on any decisions that the ARK took.

Page 45122

 1             The civilian authorities at the republican, regional, and

 2     municipal levels did not support, plan, incite, order, or aid the

 3     permanent removal of Bosnian Muslims and Croats from the territory of BH

 4     which the Serbs claimed for themselves.

 5             [Interpretation] I would just like to put one more question.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, did you fully take part in creating the policy of

 8     the Serb Democratic Party?

 9        A.   Yes, of course, I took part in creating the policy of the Serb

10     Democratic Party.  If you allow me a digression here, as for the founding

11     Assembly, it wasn't that people were just invited; they were invited and

12     they attended.

13        Q.   You're talking about the founding Assembly?

14        A.   The founding Assembly that I chaired.

15        Q.   Thank you.  And who carried out the policy of the Serb Democratic

16     Party in your municipality?

17        A.   In my municipality, the programme of the Serb Democratic Party

18     was carried out by the municipal board of the Serb Democratic Party and I

19     as a member of the Main Board of the SDS.

20        Q.   Thank you.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I have no further

22     questions of this witness.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

24             Mr. Kovacevic, as you have noted, your evidence in chief in this

25     case has been admitted in most part in writing, that is -- that is,

Page 45123

 1     through your written statement.  Now you'll be cross-examined by the

 2     representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  Do you understand that?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, of course.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 5                           Cross-examination by Ms. Sutherland:

 6        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, I see you have a number of papers in front of you.

 7     Could you please put them to one side, and if you need to refer to them,

 8     can you please ask the Trial Chamber's permission to do that.

 9        A.   All right.  I don't need it at all.  I took a CD, too, just in

10     case, from the founding Assembly, but I see -- well, I understand.

11        Q.   You added a paragraph to your statement which is paragraph 43,

12     and it makes reference to Exhibit P2638 and that's the decision on the

13     status of the non-Serbian population of Celinac municipality issued on

14     the 23rd of July, 1992.  You make a couple of points in relation to that.

15     You say that you weren't the municipal president on that date and that

16     all of the restrictions listed in the decision related to the

17     34 individuals mentioned in Article 2.  So first dealing with the

18     restrictions relating to these individuals, let's just examine the

19     document, shall we.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Exhibit P2638 on the screen,

21     please.

22        Q.   Looking at Article 1, you agree that on a plain reading of this

23     article that it states that due to combat operations in Celinac

24     municipality and further afield special status is given to the

25     non-Serbian population of Celinac municipality?

Page 45124

 1        A.   Could I have the last page with the signature.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to the last page, please.

 3        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, this exhibit here in the B/C/S, it is not very

 4     clear, the very end of the document.  And I can take you to another

 5     version of the document which is much clearer and we can see the bottom

 6     of it.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But do you have your statement, Mr. Kovacevic,

 9     witness statement given to Mr. Karadzic's Defence?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  That's D04194.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not understand that.  I have

12     my witness statement in front of me --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, yes.  She was referring to paragraph 43 of your

14     statement.  So if necessary, you may take a look at your statement,

15     paragraph 43.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, there is no need to do that.

17     May I explain?

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.  Please go ahead.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I'm not saying with

20     any certainty that I signed this, but I'm not avoiding it all together.

21     I hadn't handed over until that point in time.

22             Now, what is all of this about?  This decision was written only

23     for the sake of security.  Actually, 34 persons who are mentioned here

24     were known to the police from before.  Now, what does that mean?  That

25     means that these are people who were prone to different kinds of

Page 45125

 1     excessive behaviour, incidents, and so on.  We at the Crisis Staff

 2     assessed that these persons should not be punished at all.  I'm talking

 3     about misdemeanours proceedings.  Quite simply, we thought that they

 4     should be placed under control in order to preserve their lives, and

 5     after a brief period of time we would return them so that they could go

 6     on living together with us as they had before.  This decision was in

 7     force for a very short period of time and it turned out to be very good

 8     and very wise.  After that, all the people who saw that - and I'm talking

 9     about ethnic Muslims - they came to me and they said that it was very

10     wise, very smart.  All of these people are alive and healthy, they are

11     living and working in Celinac, except for natural deaths that occurred in

12     the meantime --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, may I?

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:

16        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you haven't answered my question.  I said:

17     Looking at Article 1 on page 1, you agree that a plain reading of this

18     article states that it -- special status is given to the non-Serbian

19     population of Celinac municipality.  That's correct, isn't it?

20        A.   Yes, but under these circumstances because we are talking

21     about --

22        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic --

23        A.   -- a period that was 20 years ago --

24        Q.   -- you've answered --

25        A.   Please go ahead.

Page 45126

 1        Q.   You've answered the question.  Looking at Article 2, it lists

 2     34 citizens which are given "a different status from other non-Serb

 3     inhabitants."  If we go over the page.

 4        A.   Not 36, 34.  Secondly, I explained in great detail what the

 5     reason was, for the sake of safety and security, because we managed to --

 6        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic --

 7        A.   -- keep all of these people alive.

 8        Q.   I'm sorry, I don't want you to --

 9        A.   -- they're alive to this day --

10        Q.   I'm sorry for interrupting.  I don't want you to keep repeating

11     what you've previously said.  I simply wanted you to agree that Article 2

12     lists 34 citizens which are given a different status from other non-Serb

13     inhabitants; correct?

14        A.   No.  No.

15        Q.   What does it say under the 34th name:

16             "These are persons considered who have previously acted

17     negatively and compromised themselves in various ways, thereby harming

18     the Serbian people, on account of which they are given a different status

19     from other non-Serb inhabitants."

20             That's what it states in the document, doesn't it?  Does it state

21     that in the document or not, Mr. Kovacevic?

22        A.   Can I read Article 2, please, word for word?

23        Q.   Yes.  No, excuse me, you can see it on the screen.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to page 1, please.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could this be zoomed in, please?

Page 45127

 1     It says as follows --

 2             JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]...

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- have been assessed as persons --

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Next page --

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   So this is Article 2 on page 1 of the document, it's listing the

 7     names.  If we can go to page -- that's right.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to page 2.

 9             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:

11        Q.   It then says because these people have been considered negatively

12     against the Serbian population, they are given a different status from

13     other non-Serb inhabitants.

14        A.   It's not a status.  It's protection.  It depends on the choice of

15     words and what the typists typed up, but this is a classical type of

16     protection, nothing bad ever happened to them.

17        Q.   Right.  Looking at Article 3 - if we can have the English back on

18     the screen, please - Article 3 makes reference to citizens from

19     Article 1; correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Article 4 specifically refers to the citizens from Article 1;

22     right?

23        A.   Article 4.

24        Q.   Specifically refers to citizens from Article 1?

25        A.   Yes.  Yes.

Page 45128

 1        Q.   This --

 2        A.   But only on a voluntary basis and you can read it yourself.  It's

 3     very clear.

 4        Q.   And by that you're referring to this permits citizens only to

 5     leave in an organised fashion with their entire family and with necessary

 6     documentation.  That's what you were just referring to, weren't you?

 7        A.   Only those who wanted.  There was no coercion at all --

 8        Q.   Yes, Mr. Kovacevic --

 9        A.   -- the authorities --

10        Q.   I want to go through this document.  Article 5, if we can go to

11     Article 5, once again the citizens from Article 1; correct?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And this article is very specific about what the citizens from

14     Article 1 shall not do, which include moving around town between

15     4.00 p.m. and 6.00 a.m. the following morning, travelling outside their

16     village or communicating with relatives outside the municipality,

17     lingering on the streets or gathering in groups of more than three

18     people, selling or exchanging property, driving cars, hunting, fishing,

19     or swimming in the rivers.  And that's specifically what the citizens

20     from Article 1 are forbidden from doing; correct?

21        A.   Yes, but that was actually the protection of the entire

22     population, to prevent them from being involved in incidents.  People who

23     came from front lines on furlough to visit their families, for burials,

24     were prone to causing incidents.  We were afraid that somebody would get

25     killed, that some harm would happen to them.  And when we analysed the

Page 45129

 1     situation, we made the decision, the decision was in force for a very

 2     short time, and eventually it proved to be very wise because it served a

 3     purpose.  The population was indeed protected.

 4        Q.   So I think you've just said that this decision related -- that

 5     this decision related to the entire non-Serb population and not just the

 6     34 individuals in Article 2; is that right?

 7        A.   If we read the entire decision, it referred to only 34 people in

 8     this part and the rest was after 1600 hours.  It is very clear.  I don't

 9     have to explain, do I?

10        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, we will continue reading the document then.

11     Article 6 is very specific about what the citizens from Article 1 are

12     obliged to do; correct?

13        A.   Yes.

14        Q.   Article 7, it's specifically directed at the 34 people named in

15     Article 2, and that they are additionally forbidden from - if we can go

16     over to page 4 in the English - "making any contact whatsoever with

17     people in the neighbourhood or further afield or making any kind of

18     movement between 0000 hours and 2400 hours, except when called for work

19     obligation."

20        A.   I don't know what you're saying.  The question is not clear at

21     all.

22        Q.   Your assertion that this document only applies to the 34 named

23     persons in Article 2 isn't supported by a plain reading of the document,

24     because as I've just taken you to Article 7 it says, specifically

25     directed at the 34 names in Article 2, that Article, every other article,

Page 45130

 1     so Article 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 all refer to citizens from Article 1.

 2     Article 1 defines those citizens as the non-Serbian population.

 3        A.   Yes.

 4        Q.   And so then Article 7 is saying, in addition to these things,

 5     these 34 people which are listed are also additionally forbidden to do

 6     X and Y.  That's right, isn't it?

 7        A.   Yes, we can see that.  That was the decision.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I note the time.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  We'll have a break for half an hour and

10     resume at eight past 11.00.

11                           --- Recess taken at 10.39 a.m.

12                           --- On resuming at 11.12 a.m.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Harvey.

14             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.  May I

15     please introduce Rafaela Steffen Goncalves da Rosa, who is from Brazil

16     and is studying for a masters at the University of Tilburg.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

18             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.  Please continue.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, I want to deal very quickly with the second point

21     that you make in this new paragraph, paragraph 43, that you weren't the

22     municipality president on the 23rd of July, 1992.  I just have a few

23     mechanics about what goes on in Municipal Assembly meetings.  Minutes are

24     taken as a regular course of business; correct?

25        A.   Will you allow me to say something about the previous decision?

Page 45131

 1     I would like to say just one sentence.

 2        Q.   No, I would like you to answer my question, please.  Minutes, are

 3     they taken as a regular course of business, the -- at the Municipal

 4     Assembly meetings?

 5        A.   If you will allow me, I did not tell you one very important

 6     sentence about this decision.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Please go on, yes.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Yes.

10        A.   May I?

11        Q.   Yes.

12        A.   Well, you see, with all due respect to the Prosecutor's

13     questions, I claim that those Muslims, i.e., non-Serbs, experienced any

14     persecution or sanctions.  The contrary is true and this can be confirmed

15     by the people who were on the list.  It was a positive decision and many

16     are still grateful for it, and it is the Muslims who will tell you that.

17     Don't just take my words for it.

18        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, now can we get back to the minutes taken at a

19     regular -- of the Municipal Assembly.  They're taken, are they not, at

20     each meeting?

21        A.   If you're asking me whether minutes of the meetings were taken,

22     the answer is yes.

23        Q.   And at the Celinac Municipal Assembly meetings, the minute-taker

24     was Marica Vujatovic; correct?

25        A.   Correct.

Page 45132

 1        Q.   And she was your secretary?

 2        A.   Correct.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 25778, please.

 4        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, these are minutes taken by your secretary, yes?

 5        A.   I need to read this.  It was a long time ago.

 6        Q.   What you're seeing on page 1 is the minutes of the 15th Session

 7     of the Celinac Municipal Assembly held on the 31st of March, 1992.  Do

 8     you recognise your secretary's handwriting?

 9        A.   I suppose that it's hers.  I really did not study her handwriting

10     because what I received from her was in a printed form.

11             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to the -- page 22, please, in the

12     B/C/S.

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Perhaps I should look at the agenda

14     first.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And it's page 15 in the English.

16        Q.   Do you see at the bottom of the page her signature?  Do you see

17     there, Mr. Kovacevic?

18        A.   I can't say anything before I look at the agenda.  I don't know

19     what this is all about.

20        Q.   These are the minutes of the meeting held on the 31st of March.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to the following page, please, in

22     the B/C/S, that's page 23.

23        Q.   We see here this is the minutes of the 16th Assembly Session on

24     the 13th of May, 1992.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Now, if we can go to page 42 in the B/C/S and

Page 45133

 1     page 29 of the English --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] You did not show me the agenda.

 3     Only the agenda would jog my memory.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 5        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, if you look at this -- this is the 28th of July,

 6     1992, maybe this will jog your memory.  This is the --

 7        A.   But I can only see the first item of the agenda, which cannot jog

 8     my memory, because where it says "adopting the minutes of the former

 9     session," it doesn't really mean much to me.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Her question is whether you recognise the passage

11     which says the minutes were taken by Marica Vujatovic.  Do you remember

12     Marica Vujatovic?

13             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course I do, yes.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Another question is whether you recognise her

15     handwriting?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't recognise her handwriting

17     because I received materials in a typed form.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Ms. Sutherland.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Okay.  You see there, Mr. Kovacevic, under where it says the

21     minutes were taken by Marica Vujatovic, the session was chaired by the

22     SO, and the SO -- the acronym for SO is Municipal Assembly, is it not?

23     The session was chaired by the SO President, Sveto Kovacevic, who

24     proposed the following agenda for this session.  So do you --

25             JUDGE KWON:  If necessary, we can show him the next page, which

Page 45134

 1     lists the agenda.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Can we go to the following page in B/C/S,

 3     please.

 4        Q.   Do you see the agenda there, Mr. Kovacevic?

 5        A.   Yes, I do.

 6        Q.   And there --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Let us go back to the page -- the previous page.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 9        Q.   Now, these minutes have you chairing the session as the

10     Municipal Assembly President on the 28th of July, 1992; correct?

11        A.   I chaired every session while I was in office.  There's no doubt

12     about that at all.

13        Q.   Well, in paragraph 43 of your statement you say when this

14     decision that we just went through before the break on the -- which was

15     issued on the 23rd of July, 1992, you said:  I was not the municipal

16     president on the date this document was issued.  And I've just taken you

17     to the minutes which show you chairing this session.  So you were still

18     the president at that time, yes?

19        A.   If you understood me properly, let me repeat the same words in

20     that same order.  I said that at that moment I didn't sign -- or, rather,

21     I cannot guarantee that I signed it, but that was indeed my period.

22     That's what I said.  I did not say the way you want to put it to me.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we upload the document, his witness statement,

24     Exhibit D4194, paragraph 43, last page.

25             Do you have your statement, Mr. Kovacevic, witness statement?

Page 45135

 1     Yes --

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, yes.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Paragraph 43.

 4             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is what it says, but you

 5     asked me if I had signed this --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  So the question -- wait for the question.  So second

 7     sentence in paragraph 43 is not correct?

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, I told you here --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, I'm asking -- I'm asking --

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- when I first arrived here -- but

11     here effectively I can't say anything else because in the documents it

12     says that I had joined Metal.  I can't state anything differently because

13     I --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Please hear the question.  My

15     question is whether this second sentence of this paragraph is correct or

16     not?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, you see, if we're talking

18     about the document, I have the originals of the documents testifying to

19     my transfer.  The document says that I wasn't.  However, I had not handed

20     over my duties, which is why I would be there from time to time and that

21     is the truth.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Back to you, Ms. Sutherland.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

24             Could we have 65 ter number 25778 back on the screen, please.  If

25     we could go to page 47 of the B/C/S and page 31 of the English

Page 45136

 1     translation.

 2        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, this is the minutes of the 17th Session, again

 3     called the 17th Session, held on the 5th of August and that's because on

 4     the 28th of July, a quorum couldn't be reached, which we saw a moment

 5     ago, when the document was up on the screen.  So the 17th Session is

 6     reconvened to the 5th of August.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we can go to the following page in English.

 8        Q.   And it says there - the minutes again taken by your secretary -

 9     the session was chaired by the Municipal Assembly President

10     Sveto Kovacevic.  So you're still the president on the 5th of August,

11     1992; correct?

12        A.   It is just like I explained a while ago.  That's correct.

13        Q.   And as president of the War Presidency, this decision that we

14     looked at before the break, Exhibit P02638 on restrictions for the

15     non-Serb population, it was issued under your name; correct?

16        A.   Correct.

17        Q.   You say in paragraph 29 that the Muslim population remained

18     throughout the war and to this day.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 00242R, please.

20        Q.   This is the 1991 census data, and it says there that Celinac

21     population of Muslims was 1.446 and there were 76 Croats.  Do you see

22     that there on the right-hand side of the document?

23        A.   Yes, I can see that.

24             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Now I'd like to call up 65 ter number 25785,

25     please.

Page 45137

 1        Q.   And just before the document goes off the screen we can see that

 2     there's 16.554 Serbs.  This document is from SNB Banja Luka, April 1993

 3     figures, and it states in this document that there are 1.120 Muslims in

 4     1991, but we know from the document we've just looked at that it was

 5     closer to 1.450; correct?

 6        A.   If you read that document carefully, it also contains categories

 7     "Others" and "Yugoslavs."  A certain number of Muslims and a certain

 8     number of Croats and a certain number of Serbs declared themselves as

 9     "Yugoslavs."  What I know is that in the entire municipality there were

10     about 1700 or 1750 of them.  It's not an exact number but it's

11     approximately that number, to the best of my knowledge.

12        Q.   And we can see here that in April 1993 there's only 770 Muslims

13     inhabitants in Celinac municipality; correct?

14        A.   That's not a document, it's not for the centre of the security

15     services to say how many people there are.  The valid document for this

16     kind of discussion is the first one we saw.

17        Q.   This is a document compiled by the SNB Banja Luka on information

18     that they must have received, and by -- so it states there that almost

19     half the Muslim population have moved out by April 1993, doesn't it?

20        A.   No.  Only a part of the population of Memici and Vasici were

21     moved out.  In fact, it's one part of the hamlet called Popovac that we

22     returned to them after the incidents.  As far as this document is

23     concerned, which is headed the centre of security services, you have to

24     ask them, not me.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

Page 45138

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  The witness hasn't

 2     confirmed anything about the document and it's not -- there's no

 3     sufficient foundation for its admission through this witness.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Ms. Sutherland, would you like to add anything?

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour, I'll move on.

 6             Could I have Exhibit P05449, please.

 7             Although, Your Honour, if I can just add on this document here,

 8     65 ter 25785, it's a document that appears to be a document created by

 9     the Serbian authorities.

10             JUDGE KWON:  I thought you were withdrawing that document.

11                           [Trial Chamber confers]

12             JUDGE KWON:  Ms. Sutherland, we'll not admit this document

13     through this witness.  Shall we continue.

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If I could have Exhibit P05449, please.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we have it here.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I'm sorry, this is the wrong document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  This is wrong.  What we had was 5549.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, I need P5449, please.

19             This document is the 1995 figures comparing them against the

20     1991 figures by the RDB in Banja Luka.  And if we can go to page 3 of the

21     B/C/S/ and the English.

22        Q.   For Celinac we can see in 1995 that, in fact, 190 Muslims remain

23     in the municipality and 15 Croats.  So your assertion that the Muslim

24     population remained throughout the war and to this day is incorrect,

25     isn't it?

Page 45139

 1        A.   Certainly correct.  I don't rule out that some young people went

 2     away to be schooled elsewhere, then that some other people moved out for

 3     other reasons.  I had a Muslim neighbour whose two children both left,

 4     one for Sarajevo, one for Zenica, so it was some sort of natural

 5     selection.  That anybody was moved out in any other way is certainly

 6     untrue.

 7        Q.   A natural selection that -- where you have a 1991 figure, even

 8     looking at this document of 1.440 Muslims, and in 1991 and in 1995 we're

 9     down to -- for the Muslims and Croats combined to 205 people, are you

10     saying that over 1200 just went for schooling, for other reasons, that

11     they simply left their homes, their positions, their lives that they'd

12     built, just because they wanted to move away?

13        A.   Your contentions are nowhere near being correct.  1995, this is

14     an evaluation from the Ministry of the Interior.  They did not make a

15     census nor did they make any real evaluation, so it's not a valid

16     document.  I'm telling you again with all certainty that people still

17     live there, they work.  Maybe some of them left for university elsewhere

18     or for some other reasons, looking for better living conditions or other

19     reasons.  To this day Serbs and Muslims are leaving for economic reasons.

20     But what you are trying to put to me, that they left for some other

21     reasons or moved out for some other reasons, that's really not true.

22     They had genuine protection --

23        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic --

24        A.   -- no matter what kind of population they were, they had genuine

25     protection from the authorities of Republika Srpska.

Page 45140

 1        Q.   -- in paragraph 29 you say that the population in Celinac didn't

 2     have any particular problems.  In June 1992, four Muslim businesses were

 3     blown up, weren't they?

 4        A.   No, no, tell me which.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 2 -- I'm sorry.

 6     Could I have 65 ter number 257 -- I'm sorry, 65 ter number 25783.

 7        Q.   This is a Radio Banja Luka report about the four Muslim

 8     businesses being blown up in Celinac.

 9        A.   No, no.  This is not a document.  This is from Radio Banja Luka.

10     They also wrote about me in the newspapers and said on the radio that I

11     had hidden my son from going to high school, whereas my son was actually

12     in the fifth grade of elementary school.  It's certainly not true that we

13     did not prosecute perpetrators.  Whatever happened, perpetrators were

14     prosecuted and punished.  I'm telling you with full responsibility and

15     with great certainty --

16        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

17        A.   -- they said about my son --

18        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic --

19        A.   -- that I had hidden him from doing his military service when he

20     was in the fifth grade of elementary school --

21        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you're repeating yourself.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender this document.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Again, Mr. President, objection.  First of all,

24     the witness hasn't been able to confirm anything about the document; and

25     secondly, I just wonder about the provenance of the --

Page 45141

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour --

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  -- document, given that there are handwritten

 3     alterations to it.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  You can -- we'll give an opportunity after hearing

 6     him out.

 7             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I asked the witness whether he -- I

 9     put it to him that four Muslim businesses were blown up in Celinac and he

10     said:  No, no.  Now, I've shown him a document which -- which

11     specifically states that four Muslim businesses were blown up.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I absolutely see the point.  But what is your

13     response to the point raised by Mr. Robinson, i.e., provenance and the

14     authenticity, in light of the fact that there is also handwriting

15     revision -- handwritten revision?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the witness has said that it's a

17     Banja Luka Radio broadcast.

18             JUDGE KWON:  It -- he read the title.  He didn't confirm that it

19     was broadcast or whatever.  We can MFI it until we are satisfied with the

20     provenance or the authenticity of the document, if you wish.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.  This document was seized

22     from [sic] the Office of the Prosecutor from the Banja Luka Radio

23     station.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Unless the Defence agrees, you are not giving

25     testimony, so we'll mark it for identification.

Page 45142

 1             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives MFI P6576, Your Honours.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 3        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, also at this time the mosque in Celinac was

 4     attacked, wasn't it?

 5        A.   Correct.

 6        Q.   The non-Serb population posed no threat to the security of the

 7     overwhelming Serb population in Celinac municipality, did they?

 8        A.   Correct.  We respected that and we did everything to protect that

 9     population.

10        Q.   The non-Serb population, though, posed no threat to the security

11     of the Serbian population; correct?

12        A.   Correct.  They posed no threat to the security of the Serbian

13     population, and we appreciated that and we did everything to protect

14     them.

15        Q.   Now, you note in paragraphs 17 and 25 of your statement the

16     torching of Muslim houses in Samac village and in Basici [Realtime

17     transcript read in error "Vasici"] sometime later and the intimidation of

18     Muslim population in the villages of Popovac, Basici and Memici.  This

19     intimidation included killings, yes?

20        A.   Allow me to explain.  Memici and Basici are hamlets of Popovac

21     village, which is about 12, 13 kilometres from the centre of Celinac.  In

22     those hamlets, Basici and Memici, there were mostly Muslims.  And another

23     enclave that had Muslim majority was in Celinac itself.  It's true that

24     there was torching in Memici and Basici.  It's true that that happened

25     and there were a couple of killings too.  And having found out about

Page 45143

 1     that, the authorities of the Republika Srpska and the municipal

 2     authorities did everything, perhaps not immediately but quickly, to

 3     prosecute the perpetrators.  I believe one of them is still serving his

 4     sentence.  They were imprisoned initially in the centre of the security

 5     services in Banja Luka and the police station in Celinac.

 6        Q.   The transcript says "Vasici," but, in fact, you and I both said

 7     "Basici."  That's correct, isn't it?

 8        A.   Correct, Basici, Basici and Memici --

 9        Q.   [Previous translation continues] ...

10        A.   -- hamlets of Popovac.

11        Q.   Inhabitants from the village of Bastici were also killed and

12     Muslim houses set on fire; correct?  Now, Bastici is close to Mehovci and

13     Basici, but it is actually in the municipality of Banja Luka.  It's a

14     very short distance over the --

15        A.   No.  I'll repeat:  Basici and Memici belonged to Popovac village,

16     which is in Celinac municipality.  And they are 12 to 14 kilometres away

17     from the centre of Celinac.

18        Q.   And Bastici is in what municipality?

19        A.   Celinac municipality.  It's a hamlet - I'm repeating for the

20     third time - it's a hamlet of Popovac village.

21        Q.   Okay.  Are you -- and you agree people were killed there and

22     Muslim houses were set on fire?

23        A.   You said that it was torched entirely.  No.  It's true there was

24     an incident, that several houses were set on fire, that several people

25     were killed, and it's true that the authorities responded.  When I say

Page 45144

 1     "the authorities," I mean the republic and municipal authorities, all

 2     these structures.  All these people, the perpetrators --

 3        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic --

 4        A.   -- of that unfortunate incident were found --

 5        Q.   -- I'm sorry to interrupt but you're repeating yourself and I

 6     have very, very limited time.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I 65 ter number 04210, please.

 8        Q.   This is a regular combat report from the 1st Krajina Corps and we

 9     see down at the bottom number 3, the situation report, in Bastici

10     village, in the Celinac municipality, five Muslims were killed, two women

11     and three men aged between 16 and 52, Muslims houses were set on fire,

12     and there was shooting in the village of Samac.  This is what you were

13     referring to a moment ago --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Did you say point 3?

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, if we can turn to the second

16     page of the B/C/S.

17        Q.   This is what you were referring to a moment ago, weren't you,

18     Mr. Kovacevic?

19        A.   I have to clarify one thing.  The place called Samac is almost in

20     the centre of Celinac.  We should not mix things up.  The hamlets of

21     Basici and Memici, although some people called it Sainovici, they are

22     14 kilometres away from Celinac.  And it's true that this incident really

23     happened as described here in the text, and it's true that the

24     authorities did their utmost, most energetically, to take the measures

25     and prosecute perpetrators.  And in the end they were convicted and

Page 45145

 1     sentenced to many years' imprisonment.

 2             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I tender this document.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will receive it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6577, Your Honours.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   You say in paragraph 16, 17, and 28 of your statement that these

 7     perpetrators were arrested immediately after the acts were committed,

 8     they were brought to trial and, as far as you remember, sentenced to

 9     18 years' imprisonment, and you've said it again this morning.  Are you

10     referring there to the --

11        A.   Correct.

12        Q.   Are you referring there to the Sugic brothers?

13        A.   Yes, I am referring to the brothers whose name I don't want to

14     mention for several reasons.  But it's true that these perpetrators were

15     immediately arrested and convicted to many years in prison as the law

16     dictates.  I really have no right to interfere with the judiciary.  The

17     truth is that the judiciary responded energetically and that group headed

18     by those two was arrested.

19        Q.   And you're referring to the Sugic brothers, yes?

20        A.   Certainly.

21        Q.   Well, they may have been arrested on the 26th of August, 1992,

22     which is sometime after these incidents --

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And, Your Honours and Mr. Karadzic, that's in

24     Exhibit D01798, page 11 of the English translation.

25        Q.   But, in fact, they were released before trial, weren't they?

Page 45146

 1        A.   You have to ask the courts about that.  As far as I know, it's

 2     true they were arrested again and tried again.  But please don't put me

 3     in the awkward position of being a judge, knowing what judgement was made

 4     by the courts, et cetera.  Our job was to install order.  That was the

 5     demand of the municipal authorities, and to protect the population

 6     regardless of faith of ethnicity.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Could I have 65 ter number 05680, please.

 8        Q.   This is a ruling by the Banja Luka military court on the

 9     15th of February, 1993, releasing Obrenko and Mladen Sugic, because they

10     say that there's no -- there's no need to keep them in custody any

11     longer.

12        A.   I don't know what that has to do with me.

13        Q.   Well, you just said a moment ago that they were released before

14     they went to trial, didn't you?

15        A.   What I said is this:  I learned or heard later that they had been

16     released and re-arrested.  But I'm not sure about those details.  I can

17     only talk about things that I know for sure.  I know for sure that they

18     were convicted to many years in prison.  Now, when they were released,

19     whether they were arrested again or not, I really don't know.  And

20     there's no need for me to know what the courts did.  It was not my job to

21     know that.

22        Q.   Well, you're aware, are you not, that the commander of the

23     Celinac Light Infantry Brigade wrote to the military court, seeking their

24     release.  And the population of the village of Popovac also sent a

25     document to the military command, asking that they be released.  And the

Page 45147

 1     and the executive committee of the Celinac Municipal Assembly also wrote

 2     a letter asking that their custody be terminated.  You're aware of that,

 3     aren't you, that the municipal -- the Executive Board wrote to have their

 4     custody terminated?

 5        A.   I'm really not aware that they asked for that.  I can only

 6     suppose that people knocked on all sorts of doors.  They didn't come to

 7     me, or at least I don't remember.  But if they did come to me, they would

 8     know my answer and my answer would be that all those who were

 9     perpetrators had to answer for it.

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour and Mr. Karadzic, those are

11     Exhibits P3610, 3611, and 3612.

12             Your Honour, I seek to tender this document.

13             MR. ROBINSON:  Objection, Mr. President.  First of all, the

14     witness hasn't been able to comment on this document --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just let me ask one question.

16             Mr. Kovacevic, you agree, although you do not know the exact

17     date, that these brothers were once released before they were arrested

18     again?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's true, but I'm saying this only

20     from memory, that I heard about it.  It doesn't have to be correct.  It's

21     probable that they were released, but all I know for sure is that they

22     were arrested and convicted to many years' imprisonment.  I mean, it's

23     not valid if I know it just from what somebody told me.  If I had read a

24     court decision, then that would be valid.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So this is the court decision presented to you, so

Page 45148

 1     you would argue this is not correct?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I'm not arguing it's not

 3     correct or that it's incorrect.  I really have nothing to do with this.

 4     I don't know why I would have to know.  I was just the president of a

 5     municipality, not of a court.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  That brings me to my second

 9     objection -- reason for the objection, and that is that you note that the

10     judge or one of the judges who made this decision, Nikola Tomasevic is

11     written on the third line of the English, we asked for a subpoena for

12     Judge Tomasevic so he could explain exactly why this person was released

13     and what pressures, if any, were put to bear on the judiciary and you

14     denied that motion.  So we think it would be unfair for the Prosecution

15     to be able to admit this document while at the same time similar or more

16     probative evidence is being excluded from the Defence.  Thank you.

17             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, the judge who signed this decision was

18     not Tomasevic, if you could assist --

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, that's correct.

20             JUDGE KWON:  -- in that part?

21             MR. ROBINSON:  It was signed by the president of the Chamber, but

22     the other two members of the Chamber are listed and Judge Tomasevic was

23     one of them.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes, I see his name, read his name.

25             Would you like to add anything, Ms. Sutherland?

Page 45149

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Just a moment, Your Honour.

 2                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, in our submissions, this document

 4     impeaches this witness's evidence.  We seek to have it admitted.  If the

 5     Defence want to call this witness, then if we have a document that

 6     impeaches his evidence, we -- it should be allowed to be admitted.

 7                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 8             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber, by majority, is of the view that this

 9     document has nothing to do with the issue of fairness that Mr. Robinson

10     raised.  The Chamber, by majority, is of the opinion that we have basis

11     to admit this document through this witness, in the sense that it

12     contradicts with the witness's evidence and as well as the foundational

13     question through which this document could be admitted through this

14     witness.

15             Shall we assign a number for this.

16             I didn't say by majority, with Judge Baird dissenting.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  The document receives Exhibit Number P6578,

18     Your Honours.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, it's correct, is it not, that -- well, it is

21     correct, it's a fact that Obrenko Sugic was sentenced -- tried and

22     sentenced in 2002 by the Banja Luka District Court to

23     15 years' imprisonment for his participation in the killings of

24     ten civilians.  You're aware of that?

25        A.   I am aware that he took part in that incident.  As for the number

Page 45150

 1     of years he was sentenced to later on, I really don't know exactly how

 2     many, but it is a well-known thing that he took part in that incident,

 3     this unfortunate incident.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 25802, please.

 5     And, I'm sorry, we don't have an English translation at the moment.  I

 6     have an English translation of a media summary that was done -- not a

 7     media summary, a summary that was done by OHR in Banja Luka which I will

 8     call up in one moment.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have much more with this witness?

10             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour, I have two -- I have three

11     topics that I wish to cover and I would seek to be able to do that.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  How much longer do you expect you need?

14             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would hope to be able to do it in

15     15 minutes.  It took a rather long time to get -- to go through the first

16     two documents with the witness, when I was simply wanting a plain reading

17     of the document, it took a lot longer than I had expected.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue.

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:

20        Q.   You said here a moment ago that Obrenko Sugic was involved in an

21     incident.  We can see here that the Banja Luka District Court verdict on

22     the 8th of May, 2002, sentences him to 15 years for murders that were

23     committed on the 7th of July, the 13th of July --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 45151

 1             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber does not see the need on your part to go

 2     through with these kind of documents with the witness.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Okay.  I will move on, Your Honour.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 5             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 6        Q.   You say in paragraph 23 of your statement that the Crisis Staff

 7     was independent and didn't take any instructions.  You know that

 8     Branko Djeric had earlier sent instructions for the work of the Serbian

 9     municipal Crisis Staffs dated the 26th of April, 1992 - and that's

10     Exhibit P03459 - and the authorities in Celinac received and implemented

11     this decision -- these instructions, didn't they?

12        A.   I don't know.  I didn't understand the question.  Which document?

13     What is all of this about?  What is the point of this question?

14        Q.   If you can go to page 23 of your statement, you've got it in

15     front of you.

16        A.   Yes, of course.

17        Q.   What I'm putting to you is that the authorities in Celinac

18     received Mr. Djeric's instructions dated the 26th of April and they

19     actually implemented their decision -- these instructions when they --

20     when they set up the Crisis Staff.

21             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 25780, please.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't see where that is written,

23     that I was sent by Djeric and that I accepted that.  I really don't see

24     that.

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:

Page 45152

 1        Q.   No, Mr. Kovacevic, that's what I'm putting to you.  The document

 2     you see on the screen is a document that is signed by you, yes, setting

 3     up the Celinac Crisis Staff?

 4        A.   Well, what you're saying is something different and what the

 5     document says is something different.  What I see is a document of the

 6     Crisis Staff and there's no denying that, and I am the president of the

 7     Crisis Staff, Sveto Kovacevic.  And I don't see any Djeric's

 8     instructions, non-instructions, I did not notice that, I don't remember

 9     that.

10        Q.   No, but if we were to look at the decision -- Djeric's

11     instructions, which are P3459, we can see that paragraphs in those

12     instructions echo the wording in paragraphs in this decision signed by

13     you?

14        A.   Believe me, you will have to ask Djeric.  Djeric, the then-prime

15     minister, that he sent something to me and that that was -- I don't know.

16     At least I don't remember that or it's been deleted from my memory or --

17     if this is written on the basis of the government, if you think that that

18     is it, well probably -- well, if that's what you think, in paragraph 6 --

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have the B/C/S actually on the other

20     side of the screen where the current English translation is of P3459.

21        Q.   Now, we can see there that paragraphs 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 of the

22     Celinac Crisis Staff decision repeats the wording of paragraphs 1, 3, 6,

23     7, 8, and 14 of the Djeric instructions.

24        A.   Well, if you think that these are Djeric's instructions --

25        Q.   If we can go to the second --

Page 45153

 1        A.   -- just show me the last page --

 2        Q.   -- second page --

 3        A.   -- let me see that, please do refresh my memory.

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Kovacevic, you were following these instructions when

 5     you set up your Celinac Crisis Staff, were you not?

 6        A.   No, no, no.  No --

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour --

 8             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Could you -- I mean, can I just say

 9     one sentence?  Throughout the world and in our part of the world, where

10     there is a crisis, a Crisis Staff is formed.  That is based on the Law on

11     Self-Protection and Social Self-Protection.  Even if this had not come,

12     it would have been formed.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender this document,

14     25780.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

16             Yes, Mr. Robinson.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

19             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6579, Your Honours.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Transcript.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In line 4, page 63, what the

23     witness said was not captured, that this is based on the Law on

24     All People's Defence and Social Self-Protection, meaning ONOSZ.  It would

25     be easier if we were to call it that way because actually we've already

Page 45154

 1     admitted that law.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you.  We can continue.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 4        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you said in paragraph 10 of your statement that

 5     there were no conditions to form War Presidencies.  You know that

 6     Mr. Karadzic issued a decision on the 31st of May, 1992, creating

 7     War Presidencies.  And that's Exhibit P2369.  And that this, in fact, was

 8     implemented in Celinac, wasn't it?

 9        A.   Do refresh my memory.  Is there some document so that I could say

10     something?

11        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you can answer my question.  The Celinac

12     Crisis Staff was renamed the Celinac War Presidency, wasn't it?

13        A.   Well, probably.  I cannot remember now when and how, but I assume

14     that that's the way it was.

15        Q.   Well, if we go back to the minutes.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  65 ter number 25778.  This is the session of the

17     28th of July Municipal Assembly.  Page 42 of the B/C/S and page 30 of the

18     English, please.

19        Q.   We can see agenda item 6, verification of decisions and solutions

20     adopted by the Crisis Staff or the Celinac municipality War Presidency.

21     We also see in the document that was issued on the 23rd of July, 1992,

22     War Presidency is the -- in the signature block of the decision on the

23     status of the non-Serb civilians.

24             THE ACCUSED:  I think there was no translation, interpretation.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your question.

Page 45155

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 2        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 4             Do you hear the translation now, Mr. Karadzic?

 5             THE ACCUSED:  Yes, now.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND:

 8        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, we see here item 6, this is the minutes of the --

 9     for the 28th of July, 1992, Municipal Assembly meeting, and it talks

10     about verification of decisions and solutions adopted by the Crisis Staff

11     or the Celinac municipality War Presidency.

12        A.   Give me -- give me the agenda --

13        Q.   Agenda --

14        A.   -- on the screen I --

15        Q.   Agenda item 6 --

16             THE ACCUSED:  Next page in English -- in Serbian.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:

18        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you see it there, don't you, the reference to

19     War Presidency?

20        A.   I never denied that.

21        Q.   When you were interviewed in Banja Luka by representatives of the

22     OTP on the 26th of February, 2003, you were trying to be helpful and

23     truthful during that interview, weren't you?

24        A.   That's right.

25        Q.   And your memory would have been fresher ten years ago than it is

Page 45156

 1     now, yes?

 2        A.   Correct, correct.

 3        Q.   I just want to confirm something you said in that interview and

 4     that was that all the municipality presidents would convene on Mondays

 5     for meetings in the municipal building in Banja Luka; correct?  And the

 6     time-period I'm talking about is May, June, and July 1992.  This is what

 7     you said when you were interviewed, didn't you?

 8        A.   Correct.  I said that that was the idea, this plan.  Now, whether

 9     they met, I'm not sure.  That there was a plan, yes, but I think that

10     they did not meet.  Now, whether they did meet, I really don't know

11     because I was carrying out other duties.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could have 65 ter number 25771, please.

13     This is on page 31 of the English.

14        Q.   And you were asked at line 7:

15             "Did you ever meet the presidents of the other Crisis Staffs?"

16             And you said:

17             "Presidents of other Crisis Staffs?

18             "For example, Rasula from Sanski Most?

19             "Yes, probably, yes, that was normal.

20             "Were there meetings of all the Presidents of Municipalities of

21     the Crisis Staffs of other municipalities ?"

22             And you said:

23             "On Mondays, all the public -- all the Presidents of

24     Municipalities would convene, some people would come, some wouldn't, on

25     Mondays.  But we have to differentiate.  My ... municipality didn't have

Page 45157

 1     the same problems as Sanski Most had ..."

 2             So that's what you said.  And then further down the page you say

 3     that presidents of municipalities -- you were asked --

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the relevant page in

 5     Serbian.

 6             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I don't have that reference just at the moment,

 7     Your Honour, I'm sorry.  It's the only reference in my whole examination

 8     I don't have.

 9        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you -- it was then put to you, you say the

10     presidents of municipalities --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's wait.  Let's locate the page.  It's impossible

12     at all?  Take a look at this page.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, perfect.  Thank you very much.

14        Q.   Now, you see there, Mr. Kovacevic, you stated that:

15             "On Mondays, all the public -- all the Presidents of

16     Municipalities would convene, some ... would come, some wouldn't ..."

17             You see that there?

18        A.   I see that, I do.

19        Q.   And then down the bottom of the page you're asked:

20             "You say the Presidents of Municipalities would -- of the

21     Crisis Staffs would meet on Mondays?

22             "Yes.

23             "And where would those meetings take place?

24             "At the municipality."

25             And you're asked:

Page 45158

 1             "Which municipality?"

 2             And then you say:

 3             "Banja Luka."

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I suggest that we ask the

 5     witness to read out something from the previous page so that we see how

 6     these interpreters are going to interpret this.  The translation here is

 7     wrong.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, I'm not dealing with the

 9     previous page.

10             JUDGE KWON:  No, that -- probably he was referring to the page

11     you read out.

12             THE ACCUSED:  Exactly.

13             JUDGE KWON:  But witness must have heard Ms. Sutherland's

14     question.  So let us see whether he can answer the question.

15             What is your question, Ms. Sutherland?

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:

17        Q.   That this is what you said, that the presidents of the

18     municipalities -- the presidents of the Crisis Staffs were meeting weekly

19     in Banja Luka.  That's right, isn't it, that's what you said?

20        A.   Well, you see, I'm not denying that I said or that I did not say.

21     But if there was a meeting and if we did meet, that was the reason --

22     that was actually a conversation, an exchange of views.  Now, whether

23     there was something missing, whether we could help each other, whether

24     there's some new information in terms of the economy, logistics, and

25     other troubles that befell us.

Page 45159

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I don't think there's a need for me

 2     to tender this page.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Two pages.

 4             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But perhaps we should.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, we would ask that it be MFI'd

 7     subject to the verification of the translation.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  If there's an issue, I would like the accused to

 9     file it in writing.  We do not do this, following our practice, where

10     there's a translation.

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Very well, we'll make a request to the translation

12     section to look at this document again.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  First I would like the Defence to check the

14     transcript -- the translation first and raise it afterwards.  We are not

15     sure whether there is a problem or not.

16             We'll assign a number for this.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  It receives Exhibit Number P6580, Your Honours.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Karadzic.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] But do we need to call the witness

20     again, then, if he's supposed to confirm what it was that he was asked

21     and what he answered and whether he asked -- whether he answered a

22     question that had been asked on the basis of a wrong translation?

23             JUDGE KWON:  Well, let's see whether it's necessary, then we'll

24     do so.  But I take it you have time to review whether there's a

25     translation issue and raise it during his -- your re-examination if

Page 45160

 1     necessary.

 2             You're done, Ms. Sutherland?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, Your Honour, I have this last topic that I

 4     wish to deal with.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for 45 minutes.

 6                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.

 7                           --- On resuming at 1.20 p.m.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Ms. Sutherland.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:

10        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you're indicating in paragraphs 6, 7, 9, 12, 15,

11     and 37 that you're a member of the Main Board, SDS Main Board.  And as

12     such, you're familiar with the workings of the SDS and the positions

13     taken and decisions issued by the Main Board and the party.  I want to

14     examine what you told the OTP in 2003 when you were interviewed about

15     your role in and knowledge of the SDS Main Board, and I want to take you

16     as quickly as possible through five excerpts.

17             MS. SUTHERLAND:  And if we can go, please, to B/C/S pages 8 and 9

18     but starting on page 8, and the English page 10.  That is

19     65 ter number 25771, please.

20        Q.   Now, Mr. Kovacevic, you were asked here of the meetings --

21     talking about the Main Board meetings that you did attend, do you

22     remember the topics that were discussed, the SDS Main Board meetings?

23             And you say:

24             "I don't really know.  I don't remember anything specific.  I

25     don't remember anything.  The SDS didn't have its own formations, so I

Page 45161

 1     don't remember anything specific that I could stress right now ..."

 2             And it's correct, isn't it, that you couldn't remember any topic

 3     that was discussed at Main Board meetings; right?

 4        A.   That's not correct.  It is just the opposite.  I said then that I

 5     didn't remember all of the details, but that I agreed with the programme

 6     and the statute.  I suppose I said that.  I don't know whether that was

 7     recorded or not, but that was true then and it is still true now.  And I

 8     apologise, I need to finish the thought.  People were afraid, there was a

 9     feeling of terror.  I was also afraid.  And later on when I read

10     everything, when I examined the situation, when I realised that some

11     documents were missing, you have to appreciate the kind of situation that

12     reigned at the time.

13        Q.   Are you talking about in 2003, when you were interviewed by

14     members of the Office of the Prosecutor?

15        A.   Yes, of course.  In 2003 I did not have any documents.  I had not

16     been prepared and my memory had not been jogged.  I joined the different

17     company and economic entity to work there.  You can ask me anything.  I'm

18     not avoiding anything.  Now that my memory has been jogged, I can tell

19     you everything.  At that time I didn't have the necessary documents.

20        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you were asked a simple question about what topics

21     were discussed at Main Board meetings.

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  If we could move to transcript page 11, B/C/S

23     pages 9 and 10.

24        Q.   And you're asked here, starting in the English it's at line 6:

25             "Now, there must have been a reason for the SDS as a party having

Page 45162

 1     a Main Board.  What was the reason?"

 2             And you said:

 3             "Every party has a Main Board."

 4             And you were asked:

 5             "Right.  And what is a function of a Main Board in a party?"

 6             And you said:

 7             "You need to look at the Statute and read it to see what the

 8     activities of the party are and what the activities of the Main Board

 9     would be."

10             So you weren't even able to state what the functions of a

11     Main Board were within the party; correct?

12        A.   Of course, if you looked at the matter more attentively, you

13     could have seen that every party had a Main Board and that if you wanted

14     to know something you should refer to the Statute.  I can now explain why

15     I said that and I repeat that every party has a Main Board and it is the

16     most important body in every party, including the Serbian Democratic

17     Party.  What I said then was for you to look at the Statute, but there is

18     nothing odd about that and there is no reason for me to state anything

19     differently to what I stated at the time.

20             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I would seek to tender the two

21     pages that I've just taken the witness to.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Is that your last question?

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour -- not my last question, but

24     apparently it's the practice to tender the pages as we go.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So you have more questions?

Page 45163

 1             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  How much more?

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I have three more excerpts that I wish to take

 4     the witness to.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 6                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  We'll add those two pages, Ms. Sutherland, but

 8     please conclude your cross-examination in five minutes.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Thank you, Your Honour.

10             If we can go to B/C/S page 6 and --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  This is the interview we -- part of

12     which we admitted already or is it a different interview?

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  This is the same.

14             JUDGE KWON:  So P6576 -- no, I'm sorry.

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  6580, I think if my memory serves me.

16                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add those pages.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   In paragraph 7 of your statement you discuss the plenum held on

20     the 16th of February, 1993, at Jahorina, as if you attended the meeting,

21     but you didn't, did you?

22        A.   What made you conclude that I wasn't there?

23        Q.   Well, if we go to your OTP interview, 2003, page 6 in the English

24     and page 6 in the B/C/S, you say:

25             "I was a member of the Main Board for a while."

Page 45164

 1             And you were asked:

 2             "For what period were you a member of the Main Board?"

 3             You say:

 4             "Let's say from 1991 and when I moved to Metal company, I didn't

 5     go anywhere."

 6             Now, it's right that you moved to the Metal company in Banja Luka

 7     in June 1992, isn't it?

 8        A.   Correct.

 9        Q.   And if I --

10        A.   But I didn't stop being a member of the Main Board.  I said that

11     it is possible that I attended fewer meetings, but I did attend them and

12     I remained a member of the Main Board until 1995 or 1996.

13        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, if I can take you to B/C/S page 6 again, so on

14     that same page, and the English transcript page 7, you're asked:

15             "Did you attend any meetings of the SDS Main Board?"

16             You said:

17             "I was, I would, I went occasionally and when I moved to the

18     Metal company, I stopped going all together and I didn't -- I would go

19     rarely actually, only if something was going on in Banja Luka."

20             And then a couple of questions later you say:

21             "I stopped going because I had other obligations, other duties,

22     so yes, afterwards rarely, almost never."

23             And I can take you to one more excerpt, which is English page 11

24     and B/C/S page 10, you say -- you were asked:

25             "How long were you a member of this party, Mr. Kovacevic?"

Page 45165

 1             You say:

 2             "As I told you already, I was a member of a Municipal Board and I

 3     only went a few times because I was president of the municipality.  After

 4     that I was also a member of, also a member of the Main Board, but once I

 5     moved to the Metal company, I don't think I went a single time."

 6             So you're saying that you stopped going all together basically

 7     and only attended if the meeting was in Banja Luka; correct?

 8        A.   No, it's not correct.  You have two different kinds of

 9     impression.  First of all you said that I didn't attend meetings after

10     joining the metal company and then you said at first I did attend and

11     later I didn't.  It is true that later I didn't.  What does it mean

12     "later"?  In 1994, 1995, or perhaps even earlier than that because I had

13     other commitments.  However, at first and when you implied that "later"

14     means 2002 and 2003, that's not correct.  But if you implied that "later"

15     is later, then it's correct.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I seek to tender these pages.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll add them.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:

19        Q.   Mr. Kovacevic, you're trying to tell this Court through your

20     statement and testimony that you're familiar with the SDS.  You tell the

21     OTP --

22        A.   That's correct.

23        Q.   -- that you never attended meetings and you don't know how the

24     SDS Main Board functions.  So you say one thing to one entity, i.e.,

25     Mr. Karadzic, for use in this court, and you tell another one to the OTP,

Page 45166

 1     completely contradictory?

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see --

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, that's not correct.  May I be

 4     allowed to explain?  You are trying to permutate my statements.  It is

 5     true that I was a member of the Main Board, and at the moment when I

 6     provided a statement my memory had not been jogged.  But if you're

 7     implying that during the later part of my office I attended fewer

 8     meetings, that's correct.  However, if you're saying that at first I

 9     didn't, then we're talking about a totally different thing.  It is true

10     what I said then when my memory had not been jogged; however, once my

11     memory was jogged, then I realised that what I was saying was true and

12     that's why I continue claiming the same thing.

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  One moment, Your Honour.

14                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

15             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I have no further questions.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

17             Do you have any re-examination, Mr. Karadzic?

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Excellencies.  I'll try to

19     reduce the number of those questions to a minimum.

20                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

21        Q.   [Interpretation] Mr. Kovacevic, could you please tell us this:

22     When it comes to the Main Board, while the work of the party was frozen

23     between the month of March until February 1993, did the Main Board meet

24     at least once?

25        A.   During that period when the work of the party was frozen, the

Page 45167

 1     Main Board was never convened to meet.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  It was suggested to you that you don't know what the

 3     function of the Main Board are, and we can see here that you are

 4     referring the Prosecutor to the Statute.  Is it true that you didn't know

 5     what the functions of the Main Board were?

 6        A.   I don't know whether I phrased my answer properly or not, but I

 7     know what the functions of the Main Board were, what its tasks were.  I

 8     know it very well.  I know what the Main Board was, how decisions were

 9     made in a democratic way.  Obviously my memory was eventually refreshed.

10     For a number of years I was part of the corporate world.  I had never

11     been involved in politics before then.

12        Q.   Can you tell the Trial Chamber which body adopts the party

13     platform or programme and when does that happen?

14        A.   It happens at the Assembly meeting, and the Main Board is the

15     body that implements the Assembly's decision.  The Main Board runs the

16     party between two Assembly meetings.  The president of the party only

17     co-ordinates the work of the party, as I have already stated.  It is the

18     Main Board that makes the decisions and so on and so forth and so on and

19     so forth, but this is all in the Statute.

20        Q.   Thank you.  Can the Main Board discuss the party programme at

21     every meeting and can it alter it before the Assembly session?  Who is

22     allowed to change the programme of the party or the platform of the

23     party?

24        A.   Only the Assembly can do that.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Therefore, did you participate in the work of the

Page 45168

 1     Assembly sessions that issued the programme?

 2        A.   Of course I did.  I was also elected by the Assembly, and from

 3     the very first moment I agreed with the programme of the Serbian

 4     Democratic Party, which is why I accepted to take part in the elections.

 5        Q.   When were you appointed the CO of Metal?

 6        A.   When you look at the documents, you will see that it was on the

 7     1st of June, 1992; however, I was still in charge of the municipality

 8     because new president had not been elected.  That's how things are

 9     according to our statute, but if -- so if you look at the documents, it

10     would be on the 1st of June, but I was still in the position of the

11     president of the municipality.

12        Q.   How often did the sessions of the Municipal Assembly take place?

13        A.   I don't know exactly.  I assume -- not only do I assume, I know

14     that it was once a month or twice in exceptional situations.  I believe

15     that it was once a month.  I'm not sure.  I would say that those sessions

16     or those meetings took place once a month throughout that period of

17     four years.

18        Q.   Thank you.  While the War Presidency existed, how often did that

19     body meet?

20        A.   It met more often because its work implied taking certain

21     actions, to deal with certain everyday problems.  And for that reason its

22     meetings took place more often.

23        Q.   Did you attend every meeting of the War Presidency once you moved

24     to Banja Luka?

25        A.   Before I handed over my duties, I did.

Page 45169

 1        Q.   You were also asked about the document describing the special

 2     status of the 34 people.  Can you tell us, out of 1800 why only 34?  What

 3     drew everybody's attention to them?

 4        A.   If the Trial Chamber wants to understand me, I would like to say

 5     that those 34 men had been previously known to the police.  We didn't

 6     want to take any action against them for misdemeanours to which they may

 7     have reacted.  We decided instead to place them under control.  Believe

 8     me - and I am sure that the Trial Chamber understands - that that

 9     decision was very good, that its main purpose was to protect everybody,

10     and that every Muslim to the last is ready to confirm that.

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now can we look at P2638.  I

12     believe that's the number of the document that I would like to show to

13     the witness.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Who did the threat come from?  You mentioned burials, the passage

16     of the troops, and so on and so forth.

17        A.   It was our estimate, based on the information from various

18     services, that it was not from the authorities but from renegade soldiers

19     or people returning from the front lines of various people who were prone

20     to causing incidents.  I don't know how to call these people before this

21     Trial Chamber.  But in any case, the threat didn't come from the

22     authorities, either republic or municipal authorities, but from those

23     vagabonds that we were all afraid from, and we were afraid that they

24     might provoke an incident and that as a result of that somebody might get

25     killed.

Page 45170

 1        Q.   Can you tell us who the person under number 18 is?

 2        A.   Salih Nezirovic, father's name Kasim.

 3        Q.   It says here that somebody threw -- an explosion happened in

 4     Cafe Charlie [phoen] whose owner was Salih Nezirovic, son of Kasim.  Was

 5     it justified for that person to be monitored or protected because he was

 6     threatened?

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second, just a second.

 8             Yes, Ms. Sutherland.

 9             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, I'm sorry, I don't know what

10     document Mr. Karadzic is referring to when he's talking about the

11     explosion in the cafe.  Could he inform us, please.

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.  This was a piece of

13     news aired on Radio Banja Luka.  At least two names are mentioned,

14     Ismet Behonjic --

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Beharic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ismet Beharic, somebody threw a

17     grenade on his house and at Charlie cafe whose owner was Salih Nezirovic,

18     where a grenade was also thrown resulting in an explosion.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, no, no, I told you about the

20     various newspapers and various pieces of news that were not correct.

21     About me, they said that I hid my son so he wouldn't join the army and he

22     was 9 or 10 at the time.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Thank you.  How many times and on what occasions was a curfew

25     imposed?

Page 45171

 1        A.   Mr. President, curfew was imposed only in times of unrest.  And

 2     when one group of Serb fighters got killed on the Vlasic front line, we

 3     were afraid of incidents in town so we imposed a curfew to protect the

 4     entire population, the Serbs and Muslims alike, to prevent a robbery and

 5     murders and such, for everyone, the Serbs, the Muslims, and the few

 6     Croats that we had.

 7        Q.   Thank you.  And who was subject to the curfew when these men were

 8     killed?

 9        A.   The entire population was subject to the curfew.  Even policemen

10     and fighting men, the entire population of the municipality, regardless

11     of whether they were Muslim, Serb, or Croat.

12        Q.   Thank you.  In your statement, paragraph 30 --

13             JUDGE KWON:  Let me ask you just simply, Mr. Witness,

14     Mr. Kovacevic, if your protection was to protect these individuals, you

15     could simply have said that these individuals are protected and it is

16     prohibited that the public attack these individuals.

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know how to explain this to

18     you.  Of course some people were afraid.  My next-door neighbour was a

19     Muslim, the headmaster of the school.  Of course I communicated with

20     them.  Of course we made arrangements and had understandings with each

21     other.  I respected his opinion a great deal.  He didn't move out

22     throughout the war.  Of course we talked to the people among the Muslims

23     who had the greatest authority, and we were trying to deal with things to

24     see how to resolve it.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 45172

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could we now look at

 2     25771, Serbian page 31, which was not translated well.  I'll give you the

 3     English page in a second.  I cannot find the corresponding page in

 4     English.  Sorry, the English page is 31 and the Serbian page is 29.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   Would you please read beginning with line 22 through line 28 so

 7     that it can be interpreted properly.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  So I would like the interpreters to interpret

 9     from -- directly from Mr. Kovacevic's testimony, not from the document.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Let them ignore the

11     English version.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Please, aloud, and slowly.

14        A.   "You see, we from -- we -- all the presidents of municipalities

15     were called on Mondays.  Some came, some didn't, on Mondays.  But we have

16     to distinguish, my municipality did not have the same problems like, for

17     instance, Sanski Most.  My municipality to maintain peace and then" --

18        Q.   Please, do not insert new sentences.  Just read the passage as it

19     is.

20        A.   "My municipality to maintain peace.  And over there, there are

21     other problems.  I have no inter-ethnic problems.  My neighbours, can I

22     just say this?  My neighbours have been in the war" --

23             JUDGE KWON:  Just read out the passage you were asked.  We can't

24     follow.

25             MR. ROBINSON:  He did read, but --

Page 45173

 1             JUDGE KWON:  He omitted then --

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No, he read:  "Can I just say this?"

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Please, start over, without inserting any new sentences, slowly,

 6     beginning with line 22.

 7        A.   "You see, we from -- we all presidents of municipalities were

 8     called on Mondays.  Some came, some didn't, on Mondays.  But we have to

 9     distinguish.  My municipality did not have the same problems like, for

10     instance, Sanski Most.  My municipality to maintain peace, and over there

11     there are other problems.  I have no inter-ethnic problems.

12             "My neighbours, can I just say this?  My neighbours have been in

13     the war.  I'll enumerate them.  And stayed throughout the war.  Some

14     people, individuals, would come and ask:  What is this?  We have to go.

15     They had great trust in me."

16        Q.   Thank you.  I think that's now interpreted properly if I followed

17     well.  So you said you had no inter-ethnic problems in your municipality

18     and that the Muslims came to you asking:  What's going on?  Do we have to

19     go?  And what would you tell them?

20        A.   I would tell them that the Serb authorities of Republika Srpska

21     and I as a part of these authorities on the municipal level will do

22     everything to prevent any excesses, forced migration, moving out of

23     people, transfer, et cetera.

24        Q.   In one paragraph of your statement you mention that some Muslims

25     came to you and made some statements.  When was that and why did they

Page 45174

 1     come to you?

 2        A.   You see, my next-door neighbour was Irfan Tataric.  In the last

 3     few months, he was organising a wedding for his son Muamer.  He called me

 4     to ask where to send the invitation.  I said:  I'm here in Celinac.  I'll

 5     come by and pick up my invitation.  I took the invitation.  I sat down

 6     with him and had coffee with him.  The entire discussion was precisely

 7     about the same things that we are discussing today.  We talked about the

 8     forcible eviction of people that some terrorists had tried to effect; and

 9     he said:  Thank you, Mr. Kovacevic.  We know that the Serb authorities of

10     Republika Srpska had done everything to protect us and you in your

11     position.  I later attended the wedding and he thanked me and he made

12     that statement that I brought here.

13        Q.   Did you say you -- he offered a statement?

14        A.   He offered me that statement.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now show 1D09544.

16             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  I object to the use of this statement with the

19     witness.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Statement?  What he's going to upload is a statement

21     of others?

22             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Yes.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, before uploading this document, why could you

24     not ask the witness your question first?

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I asked, Your Excellency, on

Page 45175

 1     what occasion -- for what reason that Muslim offered him a statement, and

 2     I referred to one statement on which the witness gave evidence orally,

 3     evidence that was disputed by the Prosecution.  I am not offering the

 4     statement.  I'm just trying to show how the authorities treated --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  So the document you are going to show the witness

 6     was the statement this witness allegedly received from the individual he

 7     referred to?

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, that's a statement that is

 9     signed and speaks to matters that the Prosecution disputed.

10             JUDGE KWON:  Who shall I hear from first?  Can I hear from you

11     first, Ms. Sutherland, on the point of objection.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, these are third party -- this one

13     in particular he -- is a third-party statement prepared for the purposes,

14     I would say, of these current proceedings.  And under the Trial Chamber's

15     practice, these sorts of statements don't come in.

16             JUDGE KWON:  That's the admissibility issue.  So what's the point

17     of objecting to putting to the -- to the putting of this document to the

18     witness?

19             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Your Honour, the witness has asked -- has been

20     asked the question about what the witness discussed with him.  He's

21     answered it.

22             JUDGE KWON:  So there is no need to refresh his memory.

23             MS. SUTHERLAND:  So the --

24             JUDGE KWON:  Is that your point?

25             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, the statement shouldn't be allowed to be

Page 45176

 1     used to bolster this witness's evidence.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Bolstering, he confirmed already.

 3             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But it's a third-party statement of another

 4     witness that we can't cross-examine.  Your ruling is that third-party

 5     statements not prepared for the purposes of a current criminal proceeding

 6     can be admitted.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we do not admit them.

 8             MS. SUTHERLAND:  But this is a -- this is a --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I'm not -- the accused didn't say that he was

10     tendering that document.  He was going to put that document to the

11     witness, so asking questions about the statement, alleged statement.  I

12     thought your objection was --

13             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Was --

14             JUDGE KWON:  -- something like that in the circumstances the

15     witness confirmed everything, there is no need to refresh his memory, but

16     you are saying that if something is not admissible it's prohibited from

17     showing the document to the witness itself?

18             MS. SUTHERLAND:  No, I'm saying that he's asked the witness the

19     questions about what the witness -- the third-party person is purported

20     to have said.  The witness has answered that.  He shouldn't be allowed to

21     use this third-party statement with the witness.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

23             Can you assist us, Mr. Robinson?

24             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, we discussed this, myself and

25     Dr. Karadzic, and I told him that my understanding of the Chamber's

Page 45177

 1     practice was that third-party statements are admissible if they are --

 2     but not those that are prepared for -- as for testimony because

 3     Rule 92 bis would probably be lex specialis to that.  And so he said that

 4     he would, instead of trying to get the document -- have the document

 5     admitted, simply elicit oral testimony from the witness about this -- the

 6     fact that what he has been saying in court through his cross-examination

 7     is supported by other information that he would like to bring to the

 8     attention of the Court.  So that's what Dr. Karadzic is trying to do, and

 9     it's up to you whether you think that that violates the spirit of your

10     decision that would not admit the statement itself.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I will consult my colleagues.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  So I take it that's the statement of Tataric, Irfan

14     Tataric; correct?

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies, yes.  And

16     there's also one statement from Ismet Topic, but I'll deal with them in

17     just one -- with one or two sentences to see if it's -- if it's

18     consistent with the witness's experience.

19             JUDGE KWON:  So he talked about -- the witness himself talked

20     about the event regarding Irfan Tataric at length from transcript page 83

21     to 84, and he confirmed that he offered the statement to the witness

22     himself.  I don't see the need for you to put that document when it is

23     apparent that the Chamber is not going to admit it.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.  Then I'll ask the

25     question this way.

Page 45178

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Were there some Toplic houses attacked and one Fikret Toplic was

 3     killed?

 4        A.   Yes, that one man Fikret Toplic was killed.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  I'll read to you now what Ismet Toplic told you, that

 6     this was done by a group --

 7             MS. SUTHERLAND: [Previous translation continues]...

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Overlapping speakers] --

10             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

11             Yes.

12             MS. SUTHERLAND:  Again, now Mr. Karadzic is going to another

13     exhibit -- another document that he put on his Rule 92 ter notification

14     to be used as an additional exhibit, and it's the same thing, it's a

15     third-party statement.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you put your question first without referring

17     to document or evidence or statement?  If you are putting something that

18     is written in other document, that's a leading question.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Can you tell us whether this Fikret Toplic is related to

22     Ismet Toplic; and what did Ismet Toplic say to you or write about this

23     incident?

24        A.   Of course they are related.  I don't know exactly how or how

25     closely.  All the Toplic family lives in one street.  But almost all the

Page 45179

 1     Muslims, including the Toplic family, still come up to me regularly to

 2     this day, thanking me for the fact that the authorities had protected the

 3     Muslims and they did not fare like some others did.  And especially this

 4     Toplic is a person I meet very often because he is a carpenter, I think,

 5     and I see him rather often.

 6        Q.   And what did Bajro Jusic say about who was responsible, and what

 7     was the attitude of the authorities and your personal attitude to these

 8     incidents?

 9        A.   It was a group of hooligans, homeless hooligans who were

10     responsible.  They wanted to tarnish the entire municipality with its

11     authorities and all the Serbian people.  Everybody knows that.  This

12     Jusic, this Bajro Jusic has his own car repair shop where he works there

13     with his son, and when I take my car there we often reminisce and

14     remember these events.  And he is among many others who thank me for the

15     fact that the republic authorities and the municipal authorities

16     suppressed these incidents.

17        Q.   You mentioned that I intervened in the case of the

18     Bastezi village.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show D102, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Do you see this document before you?  Is that what you meant?

22        A.   Of course.  A lot of such documents came to the MUP, not only to

23     the MUP but to other offices too.  Of course I meant this document and

24     there were many other similar ones.  I know that you constantly wrote and

25     warned that we must protect the population, prevent looting, and it was

Page 45180

 1     discussed at the Main Board.  And all the people at the head of

 2     municipalities implemented this and there were much fewer incidents in

 3     those places.

 4        Q.   This is dated 19 August.  You said that the prosecution

 5     authorities conducted an on-site investigation immediately?

 6        A.   Yes, they did.  The man was prosecuted and tried.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now show D1798.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   When did this happen, do you remember, this killing?

10        A.   I cannot remember the date, but it was at the time of those

11     unfortunate incidents in the municipality.  It was either before or

12     after, but it is that period, the summer.

13        Q.   These names from this -- from this folder, do you know these

14     names?  Do they ring a bell?

15        A.   Yes, Sugic.

16        Q.   Against --

17        A.   I didn't understand, President.

18        Q.   The injured party.  Who's that?

19        A.   The injured party is the Muslims and the perpetrator is a Serb.

20     We talked about them a moment ago.  Of course they were sentenced to many

21     years in prison.  For how long -- I mean, really.  I see that the centre

22     of public security has all that information and, indeed, that's the way

23     it was.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have the next page.

Page 45181

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Could you please say what the name of the investigating judge is?

 3     And who is this person, number 3, ethnicity, this doctor, or rather, this

 4     pathologist?  Actually, who was the investigating judge?

 5        A.   Jefto Jankovic.  It so happens that I know him personally, he's

 6     a Serb.  And number 3 is Nijaz Julum, he's a Muslim from -- well, I think

 7     he's a Muslim.

 8        Q.   Sorry, please, the first three numbers, the on-site investigation

 9     is attended by?

10        A.   Vesna Mijovic [phoen], Oljaca --

11        Q.   Srdjan?

12        A.   Yes, Srdjan.  Granulic Nijaz?

13        Q.   Crnalic Halid?

14        A.   Yes, Halid Crnalic.  Yes, the letters are small, President, so --

15     yeah, cannot see.

16        Q.   This pathologist, Halid, what is his ethnicity?

17        A.   He's an expert of Muslim ethnicity.

18        Q.   This exhibit has 44 pages and this is the only thing that I

19     wanted to deal with -- well, yes, all right.  This is the 13th of August;

20     right?

21        A.   13th of August, yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Kovacevic, thank you for having come to testify.

23     I have no further questions.

24        A.   Thank you too, Mr. President.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  That concludes your evidence,

Page 45182

 1     Mr. Kovacevic.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank you for

 2     your coming to The Hague to give it.  You are free to go now.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  While -- before we hear the evidence of the next

 5     witness, I'd like to deal with this matter now.

 6                           [The witness withdrew]

 7             JUDGE KWON:  It's about the Defence filing of today,

 8     precautionary Rule 94 bis notice, Marko Sladojevic.  The Chamber is

 9     simply puzzled by this filing.  So could you tell us what the Defence is

10     seeking through this submission?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're seeking to avoid any

12     objection at the time of Mr. Sladojevic's testimony on the basis of he's

13     offering expert testimony and that Rule 94 bis --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Do you refer to his evidence as expert testimony?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  No, we don't believe it is expert testimony.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Aha, yes.  I'm sorry, yes.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  That's why it's called precautionary notice.  We

18     did this once before with the testimony of Steven Joudry who was a

19     ballistics person talking about one incident in Sarajevo, but also gave

20     information beyond that of the facts that he observed.  And we were

21     concerned that perhaps if Mr. Sladojevic's evidence is objected to on the

22     grounds that it's more properly considered expert evidence, then we

23     wanted to make sure that we had covered the base of having filed such a

24     notice.  That's the purpose of doing so.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I don't follow.  What about the dead-line for 94 bis

Page 45183

 1     application at all?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, well, that applied to our first set of

 3     witnesses, was the 27th of August.  But Mr. Sladojevic was not

 4     contemplated to be called as a witness until the new set of witnesses for

 5     Count 1 --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  27 August 2012.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Right.  So Mr. Sladojevic was not on that list.

 8     However, when you gave us the 25 additional hours, then we submitted a

 9     new list pursuant to your instructions and Mr. Sladojevic was on the new

10     list.  And therefore, that's when his expert notice came up.

11             JUDGE KWON:  But you agree that he is not an expert witness?

12             MR. ROBINSON:  That's our position, yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Then what is he going to testify as a fact witness

14     or as a -- yes, what's the content of his testimony?

15             MR. ROBINSON:  He's going to testify to the compilation of

16     statements made by Dr. Karadzic on different topics at different times

17     during the course of the time-period covered by the indictment.  You'll

18     see in the notice that we analogised his testimony to that of

19     Jean-Rene Ruez or Dean Manning who amalgamated essentially bits and

20     pieces of information that had been admitted or not admitted during the

21     trial and presented the Chamber with a coherent picture of those events

22     and that's what Mr. Sladojevic has proposed to do for the Defence.

23             JUDGE KWON:  I don't think it's appropriate to compare him to

24     Dean Manning or Jean-Rene Ruez.  But separate from that, why do we need

25     to rely on Mr. Sladojevic to have compilation of Mr. Karadzic's speech or

Page 45184

 1     et cetera?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, because this presents the speeches to the

 3     Chamber in a way in which they could be more readily understood in their

 4     context by both topic and chronologically.  So you have bits and pieces

 5     of his utterances in all kinds of forms, intercepted conversations,

 6     Assembly sessions, documents admitted from the bar table, documents

 7     admitted through witnesses, but it's a central part of our case,

 8     especially with respect to Count 1, as to what Dr. Karadzic's mens rea

 9     was and this is collecting in a coherent way for the Chamber all of those

10     things and presenting it so -- in a way that you could understand it and

11     apply it when you have to decide Count 1 and the other counts as to his

12     mens rea.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Why not bar table motion, Mr. Robinson, for those

14     which are not in evidence?  This study is nothing -- nothing more than a

15     bar table motion.

16             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, getting the documents admitted into evidence

17     is another matter, but we think that the utility of the testimony and his

18     report is the way in which the materials are collected so that you could

19     see, for example, what did Dr. Karadzic say about allegations that there

20     was unlawful shellings in Sarajevo.  And these are all over the record.

21     We have 9.000 exhibits in the case, but Mr. Sladojevic puts in maybe 2 or

22     3 pages what Dr. Karadzic said on that topic.  It seems to me that's

23     useful for the Chamber.

24             JUDGE KWON:  So he's going to make closing argument on behalf of

25     the Defence?

Page 45185

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  No much more so than Mr. Ruez or Mr. Manning made

 2     their closing arguments on behalf of the Prosecutor by compiling

 3     information that was largely already in evidence, but in a way which made

 4     it understandable to the Chamber.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to make any observation, Mr. Tieger?

 6             MR. TIEGER:  I think the Court seems well seized of this matter.

 7     First of all, with or without the precautionary notice, we would never

 8     have mistaken Mr. Sladojevic for an expert on this subject.  Number two,

 9     then I guess the next step is for me to call myself in rebuttal as a

10     witness in response to Mr. Sladojevic's submissions as a purported

11     witness.  It's very clear, as the Court noted, that this is in the guise

12     of -- this is something painted as witness -- appropriate witness

13     testimony, which is obviously provided for in the form of a final brief

14     or closing submissions.  That's precisely the purpose those mechanisms of

15     the trial process are to serve, and we should move forward toward those

16     as expeditiously as possible without the intervention of invented witness

17     categories.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like to add anything, Mr. Robinson?

19             MR. ROBINSON:  Only, Mr. President, that I have still yet to hear

20     any distinction between what the Prosecution itself did in their case

21     and -- with Manning, with Jean-Rene Ruez, even Dorothea Hanson who

22     compiled all the Crisis Staff documents and put it into one document or

23     Christian Nielsen who compiled all of these other documents.  So the

24     Prosecution was the one who presented a so-called closing argument

25     through their witnesses by compiling dispersed materials and having a

Page 45186

 1     witness summarise them.  So we would like to, at least with one witness,

 2     do the same.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Before hearing from the Prosecution, those were

 4     recognised in their quality as expert witnesses, weren't they?

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Not Mr. Ruez or Mr. Manning, no.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  I'm talking about Dorothea Hanson and

 7     Christian Nielsen.

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, although their expertise came through their

 9     experience working for the Office of the Prosecutor.  Mr. Sladojevic has

10     now been four, almost five years working for Dr. Karadzic's Defence team.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Tieger.

12             MR. TIEGER:  Well, I would -- I was going to say, Mr. President,

13     that that submission, with respect, is both simultaneously disingenuous

14     and rude.  First of all, the Court itself already made the distinction

15     and indicated to Mr. Robinson that that was a specious decision.

16     Notwithstanding that, Mr. Robinson says to the Court:  Well, I haven't

17     heard enough from you even though you've just expressed your position on

18     the subject.

19             As the Court has made clear, the expertise of Ms. Hanson,

20     Mr. Nielsen, and the other Prosecution witnesses was tested, was

21     announced, tested in full and over a long period of time.  The backdrop

22     to the efforts of Mr. Ruez and Mr. Manning are well-known to the Court

23     and are markedly and visibly distinct from that of Mr. Sladojevic.

24     The -- I mean, we can begin with the fact that Mr. Sladojevic's role in

25     this proceeding, as I understand it, is in the matter of an advocate.  So

Page 45187

 1     the first question he'd have to -- I mean, he is not even in a position

 2     to offer opinions about Mr. Karadzic contrary to the obligations he

 3     assumes as the advocate.  So he is, by virtue of his very position,

 4     precluded from the very role that Mr. Robinson wants him to assume.

 5     These are such markedly distinct categories that it's almost difficult to

 6     discuss it, but I return to my initial observation which is that the

 7     Court dismissed that purported distinction at the outset and yet

 8     Mr. Robinson pretended not to hear and simply overrode the Court's

 9     determination made at the very outset of this discussion.  That's not

10     appropriate.  It's, I might add, a reflection of a kind of persistence

11     that we've seen before that keeps matters before the Court when they

12     really have been disposed of.  This matter should be disposed of quickly

13     because it is completely unfounded.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber will give a ruling in due course,

16     probably tomorrow.  But before we go on, at the end of that filing you

17     stated that Mr. Sladojevic is expected to testify at the end of February

18     or beginning of March.  Did you mean to say Mr. Sladojevic is the last

19     witness for the Defence?

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Before Dr. Karadzic, yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  But we -- the Chamber has informed of its

22     calculation that Defence case may close at the end of February.

23             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, that's one of the reasons why we've put "end

24     of February" in that filing, but our own calculations - which may be

25     unduly optimistic in terms of the efficiency of Dr. Karadzic in

Page 45188

 1     conducting his examination-in-chief and re-examination - but our own

 2     calculations still holding out some hope that there will be some

 3     witnesses in March.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  You said -- just Mr. Karadzic is going conduct his

 5     examination-in-chief and re-examination.  Could you be more specific.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  I'm meaning that in between now and the end of our

 7     case, we are urging Dr. Karadzic to be as brief as possible with these

 8     witnesses so that we can conserve as much time and we can have as many

 9     witnesses as possible.  And if he does that, our calculations are that we

10     might be into March before we reach the testimony of Mr. Sladojevic and

11     Dr. Karadzic, who would be the last two witnesses.

12             JUDGE KWON:  I wondered whether you were referring to the mode of

13     examination-in-chief with respect to Mr. Karadzic's testimony.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  Actually, that is going to be -- was going to be

15     the subject of a filing we were going to make later in the week, but the

16     mode of examination-in-chief of Dr. Karadzic's testimony would be the

17     narrative mode as far as we're proposing.  I might indicate, we had

18     originally planned on 32 hours of examination for Dr. Karadzic, which we

19     were going to ask the Chamber for permission for me to ask him questions.

20     And as the case progressed and we saw that the number of hours we had

21     didn't seem to be adequate, we looked for ways in which we could reduce

22     that and decided that we could cut it in half by having him testify in

23     the narrative form.  And so we were going to ask the Chamber or propose

24     that he testify in the narrative form, and therefore we have now

25     allocated 16 hours to his testimony.

Page 45189

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll leave it at that.

 2             Shall we bring in the next witness.

 3             We'll start Mr. Stakic's evidence, but tomorrow we'll begin with

 4     Mr. Beara.

 5             MR. ROBINSON:  Thank you very much, Mr. President.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  That's the arrangement.

 7             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, that is the arrangement we've made.  Thank

 8     you.

 9                           [The witness entered court]

10             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good day, Your Honours, and all

12     those who are present.

13             I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

14     and nothing but the truth.

15                           WITNESS:  MILOMIR STAKIC

16                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

17             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Stakic.  Please be seated.  And make

18     yourself comfortable.

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Could the counsel assisting Mr. Stakic introduce

21     himself for the record.

22             MR. OSTOJIC:  Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours.  My

23     name is John Ostojic.  I'm here on behalf of Mr. Milomir Stakic.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Ostojic.

25             Mr. Stakic, although I take it you know this very well, but

Page 45190

 1     before you commence your evidence I must draw your attention to a certain

 2     rule of evidence that we have here at the international Tribunal, that

 3     is, Rule 90(E).  Under this rule, you may object to answering any

 4     question from Mr. Karadzic, the Prosecutor, or even from the Judges if

 5     you believe that your answer incriminates you in a criminal offence.  In

 6     this context, "incriminate" means saying something that would amount to

 7     an admission of guilt for a criminal offence or saying something that

 8     might provide evidence that might indicate that you have committed a

 9     criminal offence.  However, should you think that an answer might

10     incriminate you and, as a consequence, you refuse to answer the question,

11     I must let you know that the Tribunal has the power to compel you to

12     answer the question.  But in that situation, the Tribunal would ensure

13     that your testimony compelled under such circumstances would not be used

14     in any case that might be laid against you for any offence, save and

15     except the offence of giving false testimony.

16             Do you understand that, Mr. Stakic?

17             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand, Your Honour.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

19             Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

22        Q.   [Interpretation] Good day, Dr. Stakic.

23        A.   Good day, Dr. Karadzic.

24        Q.   Please, let us pause, both you and I, and let us speak slowly so

25     that everything would be recorded in the transcript.

Page 45191

 1             Did you give my Defence team a statement?

 2        A.   Yes, I did.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please have in e-court

 5     1D9501.

 6             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 7        Q.   On the screen before you, do you see the first page of that

 8     statement?

 9        A.   Yes, I see it.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Have you read and signed that statement?

11        A.   Yes.  I read it and I signed it.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the last page so that

14     Dr. Stakic could identify his signature.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Is this your signature?

17        A.   Yes, that is my signature.

18        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement faithfully convey what you stated

19     to the Defence team?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions to you today, the

22     same as those that were put to you by my team, would your answers

23     basically be the same as those contained in this statement?

24        A.   Just one small remark in relation to 24 and 32, those two

25     paragraphs.  My lawyer drew my attention to that.  I agree with what is

Page 45192

 1     written in the Serbian language; however, my lawyer, who speaks English,

 2     drew my attention to two things in these two paragraphs.  In his view,

 3     the translation not very good.

 4        Q.   Thank you.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could paragraph 24 please be

 6     displayed both in English and in Serbian.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you help us, Dr. Stakic, this paragraph, 24 --

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please, we haven't got it in

10     English.  Could we have paragraph 24 in English?  Yes, now we have it.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Could you please help us with this.  What is correct in Serbian

13     and incorrect in English?

14        A.   The third sentence in the third line:

15             "Simo Drljaca did that and that is the only thing I know with

16     regard to Omarska."

17             And in English it says only "intelligence."  My lawyer told me

18     that that would better be translated by using a different word because

19     this is my information.  It's not that I had some kind of service through

20     which I got some kind of special information.  Do you see what I'm

21     saying?

22        Q.   So "my knowledge" or "my information" would be better?

23        A.   I'm sorry.  I think that -- well, could the professional

24     interpreters here please say what they've got to say because I don't

25     really understand English.  It is quite possible that it's that word, but

Page 45193

 1     I cannot say.

 2        Q.   [In English] I know -- [Interpretation] I know, that's what they

 3     said.  [In English] "Simo Drljaca did that and that is the only thing I

 4     know with regard to Omarska ..."

 5             [Interpretation] Are you satisfied with that now, the only thing

 6     that you knew?

 7        A.   Yes, that I had information about.  Also, the same thing is

 8     repeated two sentences further down.  This resounded in Prijedor and then

 9     my sentence says:

10             "According to what I know or according to my knowledge ..." and

11     again the word "intelligence" is used here, "according to my

12     intelligence ..."

13        Q.   Yes, could this please be taken into account, could it be

14     corrected.  So what else did you say, paragraph 32?

15        A.   32, yes, very briefly.  In the first sentence.  I'm sorry.  Could

16     you please have both the English version and this version of paragraph 32

17     here.

18             "I first met Dr. Karadzic in mid-1991 when we had certain

19     problems in our party in Prijedor ..."

20             Whereas here it says --

21        Q.   "Our station."

22        A.   "Station," yes, that's what my lawyer told me and my lawyer said

23     that this is not a good translation.  Again, I would like to ask the

24     interpreters here to ...

25        Q.   So it would be in "our party"?

Page 45194

 1        A.   In our political party, the local one in Prijedor.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Bearing all of that in mind, is the statement correct

 3     now and will your answers to my questions, the same questions, be the

 4     same as those contained in the statement?

 5        A.   Yes, provided that these corrections are made.  I repeat, they

 6     would be the same, yes.

 7        Q.   Thank you.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I would like to

 9     tender this statement according to Rule 92 bis.

10             JUDGE KWON:  And about the associated exhibits, Mr. Robinson?

11             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  We're offering ten associated

12     exhibits.  One of them on our list has already been admitted and that is

13     number 14663, which is P3535.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Any objection, Ms. Gustafson?

15             MS. GUSTAFSON:  Your Honours, I note 65 ter 17930, referenced at

16     paragraph 20, that is also in evidence.  It's the first few pages of

17     Exhibit P3536.  And with regard to 1D09763, referenced at paragraph 28,

18     this is a 405-page document and as of the first thing this morning there

19     was no translation uploaded.  In the last few hours we've had a partial

20     translation uploaded.  There are 12 English pages now which appear to

21     correspond to pages 1 through 9 and page 399 of this exhibit.  So we now

22     have translated a total of ten pages of this 400-plus-page document

23     and --

24             JUDGE KWON:  I thought it was translation of the format, but it

25     is not the case?

Page 45195

 1             MS. GUSTAFSON:  No, the -- it's a complete translation of the

 2     contents of the document, but only ten pages of it.  So the translation

 3     is incomplete, whereas the -- but the witness's comments on the document,

 4     it's clear he was shown the entire document, his comments appear to

 5     relate to the entire document.  So in our submission, if Dr. Karadzic

 6     wishes to rely on this he should lead it live and it should be MFI'd in

 7     accordance with the normal procedure.  Thank you.  And apart from that,

 8     no other objections.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President, with respect to that document

10     1D9763, unfortunately we had some problems.  The first one was that the

11     translation section refused to translate the entire document, and so we

12     don't have any objections to your MFI-ing it and directing them to

13     translate the rest of it.  The other --

14             JUDGE KWON:  By the way, we have already admitted part of it as

15     MFI P6501.  I'm not sure why it is P exhibit.  First -- I think first

16     page and page 62 have been admitted, marked for identification.  But why

17     do we need entire document?

18             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, as you can see from the statement, the point

19     is to show that there were Muslims being treated throughout the period in

20     the hospital.  So the document can speak to that, but if you would like

21     us to select other pages from that document we can do that.  But it

22     doesn't seem like there's any harm to having the entire document admitted

23     since his evidence refers to the document as a whole.

24             JUDGE KWON:  And with respect to 1D9765 and 6 referred to in

25     para 28, I'd like to draw the attention of the parties to para -- the

Page 45196

 1     languages used in para 28, the last sentence.  I would like to note that

 2     the fact they were relieved of duties does not mean that their employment

 3     was terminated.  Besides, these two documents show that those two persons

 4     were dismissed from duty in August 1992.  So I'm not clear whether this

 5     witness is qualifying the meaning of these documents in his statement, so

 6     I'd like the accused to lead live with this -- with respect to these

 7     documents -- two documents.

 8             And so otherwise, we'll admit all the exhibits -- associated

 9     exhibits, and in particular with respect to 1D9763, we'll mark it --

10     we'll -- shall we add it to the Prosecution exhibit or shall we admit it

11     as a separate exhibit?

12             MS. GUSTAFSON:  I think probably as a separate exhibit.  My

13     recollection from the previous use that it was just a reference to one

14     particular page for a particular person.  And so this -- since it's

15     the -- the whole document is now going in for a different purpose, I

16     think -- through a Defence witness, it should be given a new number.

17             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll mark it for identification as a separate

18     Defence exhibit.  The exhibit numbers will be assigned in due course by

19     the Registrar.

20             Apologies for the parties, but the Chamber should rise

21     immediately.

22             So, Mr. Stakic, we'll continue tomorrow sometime in the morning

23     after we will have finished Mr. Beara's evidence.  I take it that has

24     been conveyed to the witness and his counsel?

25             Yes, Mr. Ostojic will stay on --

Page 45197

 1             MR. OSTOJIC:  Yes, Your Honour.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

 3             The hearing is adjourned.

 4                           --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,

 5                           to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 17th day of

 6                           December, 2013, at 9.00 a.m.