131219IT

Page 45414

1 Thursday, 19 December 2013

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness takes the stand]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.04 a.m.

6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.

7 Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Good morning.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Good morning, Excellencies. Good

10 morning to everybody.

11 WITNESS: SIMO MISKOVIC [Resumed]

12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic: [Continued]

14 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Miskovic.

15 A. Good morning, President.

16 Q. Now I'm only getting sound. It was turned down very low.

17 Yesterday you were asked about whether those people who were

18 interrogated, why they weren't tried. Did you know how they were

19 released or how it is that they weren't tried?

20 A. You know, from my testimonies so far and my statements, that I

21 had -- that I was not in a position of authority with regard to any of

22 these facilities. However, according to what I heard from my colleagues,

23 they had interrogated all the people in Omarska. And based on that

24 information, that is, the private conversations that I had, I learned

25 that during the interrogations it was established that there had been

Page 45415

1 preparations for possible war, and that referred, first of all, to making

2 stocks of food and medicines that were found in bunkers at Kozarac. I

3 didn't see that with my own eyes. That's not first-hand information.

4 Based on those conversations my comment was: But how come that no

5 criminal complaint was ever filed against them? That was my private

6 comment. I wasn't present, as I said. I don't know what happened. But

7 the last time I was here to testify about the same topic, the

8 Zupljanin Defence said that criminal complaints were filed. I don't

9 know, as I said. I played no part in that. I repeat, I was wondering

10 how come that it didn't happen.

11 Q. Thank you.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show 65 ter 20213

13 to the witness.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Please take a look at the document.

16 A. Yes. Just give me a moment.

17 Q. If you read this text, it says that this was -- this is a pardon

18 of the 2nd of October, 1992, signed by Vojo Kupresanin on my behalf. Can

19 you see the signature?

20 A. Yes, I can see it. It says Serbian Assembly of the Krajina.

21 Q. Thank you. Do you know of any other cases of us having released

22 even hardened criminals, because we wanted to exchange them for Serbs?

23 A. I don't know. I was not informed --

24 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues]...

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] -- probably there were such cases.

Page 45416

1 MS. GUSTAFSON: The question suggests that it has been

2 established these people were criminals.

3 JUDGE KWON: Let's continue. The Chamber is cognisant of this.

4 You are not giving evidence, Mr. Karadzic.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I seek to tender this

6 document.

7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

8 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit D4211, Your Honours.

9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us briefly show D2056.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Please take a look at these names. Do you know them? Are these

12 prominent people, these people that I pardoned in 1994? Can you please

13 read what this decision is about.

14 A. Decision on pardoning sentenced persons. Article (a), the

15 sentenced Jusuf, son of Omer, Ramusevic, shall be released from serving a

16 prison sentence.

17 Q. You don't need to read it all.

18 A. I can see that there are people from our area, Seferovic,

19 Causevic, and others. They must be from the Prijedor municipality, but I

20 don't remember anyone individual.

21 Q. But you know that they had all been indicted and one of them was

22 convicted?

23 A. Yes.

24 MS. GUSTAFSON: That was a leading question.

25 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It was not a question. It was just

Page 45417

1 a reply to the objection of the OTP that it has not been established that

2 they were convicted.

3 JUDGE KWON: You are not giving evidence. You did not follow the

4 objection of Ms. Gustafson.

5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I can hardly wait to give evidence,

6 believe me. But since this is an exhibit already, I don't want to tender

7 it. I just want to show that these people were tried.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This is the first thing I hear,

9 that some people were convicted.

10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11 Q. Thank you --

12 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. I don't follow this conversation.

13 You are -- let's continue.

14 MR. TIEGER: Excuse me, Your Honour, but it is a perfect example

15 of the problem with leading because if the witness hadn't noted that

16 the --

17 JUDGE KWON: Just let's continue, Mr. Tieger.

18 MR. TIEGER: Okay. But it emphasises the point.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Mr. Miskovic, we're familiar with my position with regard to

21 abiding by the law, and what was your attitude in that respect?

22 A. My attitude was generally known in Prijedor, but your position

23 too, as I have already said in all my statements, that at the meetings

24 where I was present your position was the same: Respect for the law, the

25 constitution, and other rules and regulations.

Page 45418

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. The similar example is the -- our phone conversation after the

3 referendum which was intercepted and was shown here in this court.

4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us show 65 ter 32661.

5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. The 15th of November. When did our referendum take place, the

7 plebiscite?

8 A. I don't remember. I think it was after the one about the

9 secession of Bosnia-Herzegovina conducted by the Muslims and Croats.

10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I need the fourth page in English

11 and in Serbian it may be the third. Could we get the right page in

12 Serbian. Let's see. No, it's not this one. I'm going to read from the

13 English. It seems that we can't find it -- or maybe this is it. I guess

14 this is it.

15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Please focus your attention where I say: "Good, excellent, you

17 thought well ..." Do read it and especially the part under that. You

18 don't have to read it out aloud. Just tell me what this is about.

19 Thank you. Take a look at this. Let us see precisely -- this is

20 to see exactly how to do it in a legal way, this part I mean. And it

21 also says to see how to do it legally and then proceed with it --

22 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: The relevant section seems

23 to be on another page.

24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. How does this tally with your experience about our insisting on

Page 45419

1 law and order?

2 A. In this intercept you pointed out to me that I should contact

3 Simovic and see to it that everything is done in a legal manner, but I

4 never met him so that it remained an open issue.

5 Q. Thank you.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.

7 JUDGE KWON: Do you remember what this "it" was you were talking

8 about, do it legally, in a legal way?

9 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the referendum, the

10 referendum about remaining in Yugoslavia.

11 JUDGE KWON: And you confirm that you had a telephone

12 conversation like this with Mr. Karadzic at the time? So this was you?

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is me. We already dealt

14 with this at the trial of Stojan Zupljanin, the very same document, and

15 it was identified that it was me.

16 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it.

17 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit D4212, Your Honours.

18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. Yesterday item 6 from your minutes was the topic of a question, a

21 clear policy toward the non-Serb population should be defined. What was

22 my position and the position of the party, bodies of the SDS, with regard

23 to non-Serbs?

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

25 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could get a reference. I don't recall any

Page 45420

1 questions about an item 6 about a policy toward non-Serb population

2 yesterday.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we get -- I believe it was

4 admitted but I have a 65 ter number, 25720 is the number.

5 JUDGE KWON: Exhibit P6592, proposal.

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes, I believe so,

7 Mr. Miskovic's proposal, proposed measures.

8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I did ask about the proposal, but I did not ask

9 about point 6, about the policy toward non-Serb population.

10 MR. ROBINSON: Well --

11 JUDGE KWON: It's contained in the proposal.

12 MR. ROBINSON: That [overlapping speakers] --

13 JUDGE KWON: Let us hear the question.

14 I interrupted you, Mr. Robinson, would you like to add anything?

15 MR. ROBINSON: I was just going to say that would be really

16 unfair to omit a point of a document and then preclude the other party

17 from asking about it.

18 JUDGE KWON: Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. This is the

20 accompanying text, an excerpt from the minutes. And what I need is on

21 page 3 in English and in Serbian.

22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23 Q. In your experience, what was our policy towards non-Serbs?

24 A. The general policy of the SDS and consequently the policy of the

25 SDS in Prijedor was in favour of peaceful solutions in every field, and

Page 45421

1 to that purpose it was our policy to conduct talks and negotiations in

2 keeping with election results, and that's what we did all the time. You

3 saw from my evidence yesterday and before that maximum efforts were made

4 to avoid confrontation and conflict. The best confirmation that we were

5 right is that Montenegro, which remained within the Federation at the

6 time, later seceded, separated, itself from Yugoslavia peacefully and

7 democratically.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1D29 --

9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second, if you are moving away from this

10 document. Solution, peaceful solution is one thing. Policy towards

11 non-Serbian population may be another. What did you have in mind when

12 you wrote this item number 6? Could you read it out? I'll read it:

13 "To establish a general and unified policy towards the

14 non-Serbian population."

15 So what did you have in mind when you wrote "a general and

16 unified policy"?

17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'll explain. I said yesterday

18 that Prijedor was an exception because there was not a single excess on

19 our territory against the Croat or the Muslim population, because we had

20 this agreement and -- however, there were incidents in other

21 municipalities of businesses being destroyed, et cetera. This had not

22 happened in our municipality and that's why we wanted a general policy

23 established to maintain that.

24 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.

25 Please speak slowly. Yes, ask your question again, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 45422

1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. This document is dated 1st October, 1992. Can you tell us about

3 all the things that happened before this date when this platform was

4 endorsed?

5 A. In what sense? Could you be more specific.

6 Q. Were there any war time conflicts?

7 A. I told you yesterday about the murder of that policeman, then the

8 killing of those soldiers who were coming back from the war in Slavonia.

9 They were ambushed at Hambarine. Then there was another roadblock of the

10 Prijedor-Banja Luka road, although we had had an agreement about leaving

11 all the communications open. And after that, there indeed was

12 confrontation and conflict.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now see 1D2910.

14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Could you tell us what this is about?

16 A. Ensure full protection for non-Serb population. This is

17 Karadzic's order to municipal authorities in mid-1994. This is about

18 municipal authorities. And I was not part of that in 1994, I was not

19 even head of the party because I had withdrawn in August 1993, so I don't

20 know about this document.

21 Q. And do you know whether this position that I took is consistent

22 with our general policy of protection for minorities?

23 A. Yes, this is consistent with the general attitude to non-Serb

24 population that I discussed before. I can repeat if necessary.

25 Q. Thank you.

Page 45423

1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

2 MS. GUSTAFSON: No objection.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me.

4 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.

5 THE REGISTRAR: It receives Exhibit D4213, Your Honours.

6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. You were asked about discipline in the implementation of party

8 decisions. Can you tell us which ideologies threatened at that time to

9 be sneaked in as SDS policies? Which policies were risky?

10 A. I said it yesterday, but I'll repeat. Those were reformists and

11 socialist forces, a legacy of the period before the multi-party

12 elections.

13 Q. In what forms were they active and through which institutions?

14 A. They were represented in the Municipal Assembly of Prijedor and

15 in the parliament legally.

16 Q. What was the ideology of JNA officers?

17 A. They were special. They were very attached to the ideology of

18 the previous regime, and they found it very hard to abandon it. They

19 were really indoctrinated by the League of Communists.

20 Q. You were asked about the meeting of 23rd April, 1992, and

21 generally our attitude to the JNA. You said the people where are

22 concerned because young Serb men were in the JNA, whereas the Croats and

23 Muslims were not. Tell us, what exactly was your concern regarding the

24 fact that young Serb men were not in their homes, whereas the Muslims and

25 Croats were?

Page 45424

1 A. In 1991, a general mobilisation was declared by the competent

2 institutions, so that I, too, was mobilised in 1992 as the reserve police

3 commander of the police station in Urije. The army conscripts were also

4 mobilised, according to their military specialty, and sent to the theatre

5 of war in Slavonia.

6 Q. Could you speak slowly, please.

7 A. They were being sent to the war zone in Slavonia, in Croatia.

8 All the Serbs responded to the call-up; however, due to the Muslim

9 propaganda and the propaganda of the Croat HDZ, who were appealing to

10 their young men not to respond, very few Muslims and Croats responded to

11 the mobilisation. And our area was empty of Serb military conscripts,

12 whereas all the Muslim and Croat young men stayed at home. So the people

13 were concerned and exerted great pressure on us, the politicians and the

14 army, to do something about it. It's all a consequence of the

15 experiences and memories from World War II, when all the able-bodied men

16 who had stayed at home ended up in camps in Croatia, in Jasenovac.

17 Q. If I'm not mistaken, you said there was pressure on you,

18 politicians, and the army. Why you are taking their young men and

19 leaving them without protection. That was not recorded. Is that what

20 you said? What was the pressure about?

21 A. I said a moment ago because all the -- the people were exerting

22 pressure because all the young Serbs over 18 were taken by the JNA and

23 sent to the war in Slavonia. So as far as the Serbs were concerned, the

24 homes were empty. However, because the Muslims and Croats did not

25 respond to the call-up, their young men stayed at home, which left the