Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 46516

 1                           Wednesday, 5 February 2014

 2                           [Open session]

 3                           [The witness takes the stand]

 4                           [The accused entered court]

 5                           --- Upon commencing at 9.03 a.m.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Good morning, everyone.

 7             Yes, Mr. Harvey.

 8             MR. HARVEY:  Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, may I

 9     introduce Kristina Belic, who is from New Jersey, USA, via Serbia, and

10     has been assisting our team since the beginning of January.  Thank you.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             Yes, Mr. Tieger.

13             MR. TIEGER:  Thank you, Mr. President.  And good morning,

14     Your Honours.

15             Mr. President, if I could quickly raise one matter that I have

16     discussed with the Defence and that concerns Exhibit P6635, an intercept

17     that was admitted in part, yesterday.  That -- the document was truncated

18     on the basis of an understanding that it contained a number of

19     conversations not simply the one the witness alluded to, but a closer

20     look reveals that there is only one conversation in that.  I brought it

21     to Mr. Robinson's attention.  We reviewed it.  We agree that the entirety

22     of the -- 6635 should be admitted because for the same reason the portion

23     was admitted.  It's all one conversation.  So I would ask the Court to

24     have the Registry modify it accordingly with Mr. Reid's assistance.

25             JUDGE KWON:  So that's one set of conversation between

Page 46517

 1     Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Kojic.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  In which a number of people participate but it's the

 3     same conversation and indeed the earlier part of the conversation is

 4     alluded to in the latter part of the conversation, so it's another reason

 5     for admission.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Tieger.

 7             Do you confirm that, Mr. Robinson?

 8             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  That will be done.  Thank you.

10             Yes, Mr. Olmsted, please continue.

11             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

12             May we have 65 ter 25900 on the screen.  And if we could turn to

13     page 31 of the English; page 22 of the B/C/S.

14                           WITNESS:  MICO STANISIC [Resumed]

15                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

16                           Cross-examination by Mr. Olmsted: [Continued]

17        Q.   Yes.  Mr. Stanisic, on 17 January 1994, during your second term

18     as RS MUP minister, you appointed Simo Drljaca assistant chief of CSB

19     Banja Luka; isn't that correct?

20        A.   This is not my signature on this decision but it does say in this

21     decision -- I mean, it does say what you had said.

22        Q.   Yes.  And this decision was issued under your name and that

23     wouldn't have occurred without your authorisation; correct?

24        A.   Decisions are only signed by the minister, decisions on

25     appointments.

Page 46518

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could turn to page 5 in both the English and

 2     B/C/S.

 3                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

 4             MR. OLMSTED:  Mr. President, I assume there's some technical

 5     delays.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Indeed.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, there we have it.

 8        Q.   And on 27 April 1994, you appointed Mr. Drljaca to position of

 9     chief of SJB Prijedor; correct?

10        A.   Again, this is not my signature.  My signature is clear.  You

11     have it in documents.  This is somebody on behalf of the minister.  And I

12     don't know when and I don't know who did this.

13        Q.   Yes.  But a person would not be appointed SJ -- or CJB chief

14     without your authorisation; isn't that correct?

15        A.   I can only give some clarification about what I knew.  There was

16     no CSB Prijedor at the time.  There was a CSB Prijedor that was in the

17     process of being established.  Maybe it's somebody from the personnel

18     department.  Or maybe one of the under-secretaries.  Maybe the

19     under-secretary for public security sent him there to prepare facilities,

20     to prepare everything that was needed in order to have the centre

21     established.

22        Q.   To save time, I don't want you to speculate just focus on my

23     questions.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may these two pages be tendered into

25     evidence.

Page 46519

 1             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection, Mr. President.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit them.

 3             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6638, Your Honours.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:  May we now have on the screen, D1076.

 5        Q.   What we have in front of us is a RS MUP administration for police

 6     duties and affairs report dated 3 August 1992.

 7             If we could turn to page 2 of both versions.

 8             I want to focus your attention, Mr. Stanisic, on the second

 9     paragraph in the B/C/S, which reports:

10             "A special problem in certain areas is the paramilitary

11     formations, groups and individuals that make war as they please.  True,

12     as I was informed, they were responding and helping the units of the

13     Serbian army and police ..."

14             Mr. Stanisic, my question is:  You were aware, weren't you that

15     in the early days of the conflict Serb paramilitary groups were

16     responding to and helping the police and the army?

17        A.   May I take a look at the date?  May I see the date of this

18     document?

19        Q.   We can turn to the first page but I'll tell you it's the

20     3rd of August, 1992.

21        A.   So it's not the beginning.  It's the second half of 1992.

22             Now we can go back to that page.

23             While we're still on this, though, this document does not make

24     any sense officially because there is no number.  It could not have

25     reached the minister's office.  No report could have reached the

Page 46520

 1     minister's office without it being registered and logged.  I don't see

 2     any number here.  And I really cannot recall now.  It was a long time

 3     ago.  But I can try to help with this para unit as you had put it a

 4     moment ago, as far as I remember.

 5        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, can you help by focussing on my question.  My

 6     question is simply:  You were aware that early on in the conflict

 7     paramilitary groups were helping and responding to the police and the

 8     army, weren't you?

 9        A.   Your Honours, I said yesterday as well that paramilitary groups

10     came.  They were brought in -- I mean, let me not be too extensive now.

11     A member of the Presidency sent letters and brought them there.  When

12     they would first come they would report to the army.  They would get a

13     lot of weapons and then they'd become renegades.  And here they say that

14     they joined them sometimes.  Usually when they'd be armed well, then they

15     would become renegades from the army, and then they'd start doing other

16     things as well so this group was expelled, I think, immediately in this

17     period.  As far as I can remember, Charlie's men, it was expelled in

18     Serbia.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's have P3174 on the screen.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Do you have the entire parts of this

21     document in our evidence?

22             MR. OLMSTED:  I believe so, Your Honour.  I -- I assumed it's

23     already been admitted into evidence.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Can we see the last page of this.

25             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I do apologise.

Page 46521

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Oh, yes.  The -- I have a notation -- yes, here

 2     notation that end of this document is missing.

 3             So I wanted to see the signature part whether this was signed by

 4     the witness.  But it's -- it seems missing.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:  And -- yes.  And it was issued by the

 6     administration for police duties.  It wasn't issued -- we're not

 7     purporting it was issued by Mr. Stanisic himself.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  Now if we could have P3174.

10        Q.   And while that is coming up, Mr. Stanisic, let me put to you that

11     the report we just looked at, the purpose of those reports were to inform

12     you about events on the ground; isn't that correct?

13        A.   Of course reports that reach the minister have one purpose only;

14     that is to say, to inform the minister about the part of the work that

15     the minister has to be informed of.  Not all reports end up on the

16     minister's desk.  There are a lot that end up at centres, stations, and

17     so on.

18        Q.   Yes.  But this is a report from -- at the RS MUP level by the

19     administration of police duties, and therefore they're preparing that

20     report for you, aren't they?

21        A.   What do you mean?  The report that was on our screen a moment

22     ago?

23        Q.   That's right.  The 3 August report.  That was prepared by your

24     direct subordinates, the administration on police duties and in preparing

25     that report, not for -- for the field, not for the SJBs, but for you, as

Page 46522

 1     minister.

 2        A.   Please, Mr. Prosecutor.  It would not have been serious, to put

 3     it mildly, if one of the assistants from the department for the police to

 4     send information to the minister without a number and without a

 5     signature.  I really could not accept that.  I claim that it is the

 6     obligation about the part of the work that the minister is supposed to

 7     know about, that is to say the general work of the

 8     Ministry of the Interior along general lines of work.  The minister

 9     should be informed, and each and every such report arrives is recorded in

10     the records of the minister's office and is assigned a number and also

11     gets a number under which it is sent.

12             How else could I take action if there is not a number and if

13     there is no signature in terms of who had sent it.  Perhaps somebody from

14     the street had simply written this up to make a provocation.  I cannot

15     say.  It's been a long time ago.  And especially because it is

16     incomplete.

17        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, in front of us we have a certificate issued by the

18     SJB chief from Prijedor -- or, I'm sorry, from Pale who at the time was

19     Malko Koroman, and it's a certificate concerning the issuing of a number

20     of weapons to Vojo Vuckovic which we have evidence was the leader of the

21     Yellow Wasps in Zvornik.  Now, you were aware of the certificate, I'm not

22     saying at the time, but you were aware of it, weren't you?

23        A.   First of all, please let us clarify this.

24             In this period of time, Malko Koroman had been relieved of his

25     duties by the minister on the basis of a decision taken in May.  It is

Page 46523

 1     true that he did not want to leave and you already know that from my

 2     case, and it is true that I have nothing to do with this.  How could I

 3     have known about this?

 4        Q.   Well, let's quickly look at P6386.  Yes.

 5             Now, this is a cover page of a report submitted to you, the

 6     minister, and you will see that attached or enclosed with the report is a

 7     photocopy of a certificate from Pale SJB.

 8             Mr. Stanisic, that was the certificate that we just looked at

 9     that was issued by Malko Koroman; correct?

10        A.   Please.  I did not see any certificate, in terms of what you

11     showed me a moment ago, but the content of this report that was sent to

12     the minister, yes, I did see that.

13             An action was taken on the basis of this report.  The centre of

14     security services started an investigation, and I don't know anything

15     else about that.

16        Q.   Are --

17        A.   But could I just add one more thing?  I'm sorry.

18             I replaced Malko Koroman by decision of mine in the month of May.

19     He didn't want to leave the station.  I sent Dragan Andan, an inspector,

20     to carry out my decision.  There was a rally there of over 10.000 people

21     and we could not do that.  We could not get that done.  He didn't want to

22     leave the police station.  He created problems.  But I never withdrew

23     this decision on the basis of which I had relieved him of that duty as

24     chief of the public security station.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's have 65 ter 25899 on the screen.  I'm

Page 46524

 1     interested in page 3 of the English; page 2 of the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   And, Mr. Stanisic, let me just repeat my question again:  You

 3     were aware that Malko Koroman was providing weapons to members of the

 4     Yellow Wasps; correct?

 5             Please don't focus on the document, focus on my question,

 6     Mr. Stanisic.  You were aware that the Yellow Wasps were receiving

 7     weapons from Malko Koroman; correct?

 8        A.   That's right.  And disciplinary proceedings were initiated and

 9     checks were carried out and the conclusion reached was that that was not

10     correct.  That is the information that I received.

11        Q.   Now we see on 18 January 1994, you appointed Mr. Koroman chief of

12     the department for police duties in CSB Sarajevo; correct?

13        A.   No.  No, this is not my signature.  And I know that he was

14     appointed.  So it wasn't I who appointed him.  This was in the domain of

15     the under-secretary for public security.  But that is exactly when I was

16     informed that there were disciplinary proceedings against him and that

17     nothing had been established.  And the proposal was that he be appointed

18     again as chief -- I mean, that he stay on at the public security station

19     in Pale.  I did not allow that for him to be in that position as a single

20     head of a single unit, so it was this organisational unit of the MUP.

21        Q.   Let's turn to page 4 --

22             JUDGE KWON:  I do not understand, Mr. Stanisic, your explanation.

23             You said:

24             "I did not allow that for him to be in that position as a single

25     head of single unit ..."

Page 46525

 1             Does it mean you didn't approve this appointment?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the minister makes

 3     decisions on appointments at the proposal of the head of the

 4     organisational unit that wants to appoint a particular person and then

 5     the under-secretary for public security insisted that Malko Koroman since

 6     nothing had been established in the proceedings against him that a

 7     decision be made for him to stay on as chief of the public security

 8     station in Pale.  I did not allow that for the following reason:  I

 9     thought that he could not be the head of a separate organisational unit

10     in the Ministry of the Interior.  However, since nothing had been

11     established, he could continue carrying out duties in a different unit

12     where he would be under the control of his immediate superior.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Whether or not you signed this document in front of

14     you, it was you that appointed Mr. Koroman as the chief of the department

15     for the police duties in Sarajevo CSB, wasn't it?

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I agreed that Malko Koroman,

17     since nothing had been established, that's correct, that he should be

18     assigned -- actually, since disciplinary proceedings had been carried out

19     and nothing had been established then he would be assigned to a

20     particular job but where he could not, I mean, hold the position of a

21     person who organises work in an organisational unit, as he had been

22     before that.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

24             Please continue.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.  If we could have page 4

Page 46526

 1     of the English; page three of the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   And while that's coming up, Mr. Stanisic, I want to put to you --

 3     no, I want to ask you a question before you look at the document,

 4     Mr. Stanisic, I want to put to you that, in fact, no disciplinary

 5     proceedings were initiated against Malko Koroman in 1992 or afterwards.

 6     That's what I put to you.

 7        A.   No, I was informed, I was -- in charge of the proceedings.  The

 8     proceedings were carried out at the centre of the security services in

 9     Sarajevo.  They were in charge of the proceedings and I was informed the

10     proceedings had been initiated and that they had taken place, and I left

11     in 1992, and I mean --

12        Q.   What we have in front of you is a 27 May 1994 decision issued

13     under your name, under your authority, in which you appointed Mr. Koroman

14     chief inspector of the police special operations in the office of the

15     minister; isn't that correct?

16        A.   Again, this is not me.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I would tendered --

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please --

19             MR. OLMSTED:

20        Q.   You've answered.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I would tender this document into

22     evidence.

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, please.  May I explain?  I'm

24     saying that this is not my signature.

25             JUDGE KWON:  I don't understand what you meant.  But you approved

Page 46527

 1     it.  Does it mean you didn't approve it?

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No.  Your Honour, I'm not aware of

 3     this decision.  This was precisely at the time when we had clashed and

 4     when I was leaving and then in July I left the MUP of Republika Srpska.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  Are you tendering two pages?

 6             MR. OLMSTED:  That's fine, Your Honour.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll admit them.

 8             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6637, Your Honours.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  If we may have on the screen, 65 ter 5290.

10        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, what you have in front of you is an information

11     from SJB Ilidza dated 5 August 1992.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  And if we could turn to the second page.  We can

13     see at the top that this was submitted to the personal attention of you,

14     the minister.

15             Now, if we could go to page 5 of the English, page 6 of the

16     B/C/S, we see that it reports that SSJB Ilidza delivered the following to

17     the Serb volunteer and then provides a long list of weapons.

18        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, other MUP officials were engaged in arming

19     activities similar to those of Malko Koroman regarding paramilitaries.

20     Isn't that the case?

21        A.   No.  These two documents that you mentioned don't have the same

22     content.

23             Your Honour, Ilidza is a municipality of the city of Sarajevo.

24     At the police station -- on the premises of the police station, weapons

25     were stocked of the entire military brigade as well as the weapons of the

Page 46528

 1     police in Ilidza.  All that was stored there.  This is probably a report

 2     to the effect that from that stockpile, they gave these weapons to the

 3     volunteers, because that was the most -- the safest depot.  So the

 4     military weapons and the police weapons were stored there.

 5             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, we tendered this into evidence.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6639, Your Honours.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's have on the screen 65 ter 15476.

 9        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, you will agree that you signed this document; is

10     that correct?

11        A.   Yes.

12        Q.   And pursuant to this document, you note that the MUP issued

13     Branislav Gavrilovic, also known as Brne, a Heckler, and a pistol, and

14     you authorised him to carry those weapons; correct?

15        A.   Yes, they informed me that the MUP had issued one Heckler to the

16     said person.

17        Q.   And you knew that Branislav Gavrilovic was a commander of a SRS

18     unit.  Isn't that the case?

19        A.   No.  Branislav Gavrilovic, no.  Branislav Gavrilovic was born in

20     Sarajevo and he must have been engaged as a reservist and given weapons

21     by the MUP at this point.  Generally speaking, I never heard that

22     Branislav Gavrilovic was part of the - what you did say? - SOS?

23        Q.   I said SRS, the Serbian Radical Party paramilitary volunteers.

24     He was a member of those, Mr. Stanisic, I'll put to that you.  And I'll

25     ask you --

Page 46529

 1        A.   Maybe he was a member of the Serbian Radical Party, I'm not

 2     denying that.  I understood you as saying "SOS."  I don't know who

 3     belonged to whom.  At this point he was probably engaged on some

 4     assignment and given the weapons, and these weapons were a Heckler and a

 5     pistol.

 6        Q.   And you -- you -- before issuing a certificate such as this you

 7     didn't do any background check to make sure you understood exactly who

 8     Branislav Gavrilovic was and why he needed these weapons?

 9        A.   Please.  I don't do the vetting.  I don't run checks.  This is a

10     document that comes to my desk for my signature, and checks were supposed

11     to be run by the organisational unit, if he was carrying out some

12     assignment there.

13             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this be admitted into evidence.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

15             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6640, Your Honours.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Are you coming to a close?

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Oh.

18             JUDGE KWON:  How much longer do you need to conclude?

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I just have a couple of more

20     questions regarding paramilitaries, and I would really like to cover the

21     issue of war crimes.  I don't think that will take very long because my

22     questions are quite limited and they are mainly asking him to confirm

23     documents.  And I just ask for the time to do that.  And I apologise.  I

24     should have given a better estimate yesterday.

25             JUDGE KWON:  And you haven't touched the issue of

Page 46530

 1     Koricanske Stijene at all.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  I do have a few questions but if something has to

 3     go, that will have to go, but I would like -- ideally, I would like to

 4     ask questions about that.  And, Your Honours, I really am trying to push

 5     this along as fast as I can.  I learned some lessons yesterday with

 6     regard to this witness and the issue of time, and now I'm trying to

 7     rectify that and really hone in my questions.  And I believe I can get

 8     through this fairly quickly, if you give me leave.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  How much time do you have in mind?

10             MR. OLMSTED:  Realistically, Your Honours, 45 minutes, if I want

11     to cover Koricanske Stijene.

12                           [Trial Chamber confers]

13             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Olmsted, please conclude in half an hour.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honour.  I really appreciate it.

15        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, you were aware that paramilitaries in Zvornik were

16     committing crimes against non-Serbs before the 11 July collegium meeting;

17     isn't that correct?

18        A.   Your Honours, sometime in the beginning of June, we knew about

19     the incriminating activities of the Yellow Wasps in Zvornik.  We didn't

20     have full information, but I had just sent inspectors to inquire into

21     that and to prepare the ground, as we call it, for arresting and

22     eliminating that unit.

23        Q.   And you were aware, weren't you, that in June and July or -- I

24     think it's more particular towards the end of June, maybe at some point

25     in July, that ministers of the Bosnian Serb government were being stopped

Page 46531

 1     by the Yellow Wasps at check-points and vehicles -- Golf vehicles were

 2     being confiscated, and ministers, such as Mr. Ostojic, were being

 3     harassed.

 4             You were aware of that, weren't you?

 5        A.   Not only ministers.  They harassed the authorities and any

 6     passer-by, including ministers.  That's what all these criminal groups do

 7     to achieve control and then commit crimes.

 8        Q.   And, in fact, they stopped you at a check-point - isn't that

 9     correct? - in Zvornik?

10        A.   No, no.  I passed through one of their check-points, but we had

11     knowledge from before that they were committing incriminating acts in the

12     area where they were located.  And I believe when I was setting out to

13     that collegium meeting in Belgrade, I had personal experience that they

14     were doing that, because they stopped me too.  But we had knowledge about

15     it before, and we had started an investigation to collect information in

16     order to arrest that group.  But when I set out to the collegium meeting

17     on the 11th of July, I saw that for myself.

18             Excuse me, if I may add one thing.  Zvornik, all the way up to

19     the month of June, was physically separated because there was only one

20     road that you could pass through occasionally at a place called

21     Sabati [phoen] because it was affected by constant conflict between the

22     Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the Army of Republika Srpska.  It's only

23     beginning with June that you could occasionally pass through escorted by

24     a military convoy of tanks.

25        Q.   Let me stop you there because my question was simply whether you

Page 46532

 1     were stopped at this check-point and you have answered that.  So let's

 2     move on to a different topic.

 3             Now, after a long trial and extensive evidence in your case

 4     before this Tribunal, the Trial Chamber found that when dealing with war

 5     crimes you focussed primarily on crimes committed against Serbs.

 6             That's what the Trial Chamber found; isn't that correct?

 7        A.   As I said, I didn't see my original judgement, but I maintain

 8     that this was not so.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's have P2715 on the screen.

10        Q.   Sir, this is an order from you to the CSB chiefs.  It's dated

11     16 May 1992.  And if we could turn to page 3 of the English; page 2 of

12     the B/C/S.

13             We can see under section Roman numeral IV entitled "War crimes,"

14     you wrote:

15             "Measures and activities conducted to document war crimes, these

16     activities must involve collection of information and documents on war

17     crimes against the Serbs."

18             Mr. Stanisic, this was your first written order about the

19     investigation of war crimes, wasn't it?

20        A.   I cannot give you an answer without any explanation,

21     Mr. Prosecutor.  So if you allow me.

22             The first sentence says --

23        Q.   Please just answer my first question.  This was your first --

24        A.   No --

25        Q.   You issued -- you -- are you -- can you point us to an earlier

Page 46533

 1     order, written order by you, with regard to war crimes?

 2        A.   Please.  Could you repeat the question.  I didn't understand you

 3     at all.

 4             This first question you asked, you want me to -- you want me to

 5     answer, and I had begun to answer, but I need to understand the question

 6     clearly.

 7        Q.   Then let me repeat.

 8             I asked you whether this was your first written order concerning

 9     the investigation of war crimes, and I understand your answer to be "no."

10     And so my follow-up question is:  Can you point us to an earlier written

11     order by you with regard to the investigation of war crimes because --

12             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Objection.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The Prosecutor should know, and I

15     believe he knows, the difference between collecting documentation and

16     investigation, and he should define the document.

17             JUDGE KWON:  That's not a proper intervention.

18             But why don't you deal with it one by one?  Whether the answer to

19     the first question is no, please confirm that first.

20             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

21        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, let's take this very simply.  First of all, is it

22     your assertion that this is not the first written order that you issued

23     with regard to the investigation of war crimes?

24        A.   From day one, with insisted with the inner collegium that all

25     crimes should be investigated, regardless of ethnicity, Serb or non-Serb.

Page 46534

 1     And if I may say, from this document, I cannot answer any question until

 2     we clarify what type of document this is and what it's about.

 3             Your Honour, if I may only ...

 4        Q.   If I may ask my second question, Mr. Stanisic.  My second

 5     question is:  Can you point to us -- to an earlier order by you

 6     concerning investigation of war crimes?  Can you point to an earlier

 7     document?

 8        A.   How can I off the cuff?  I should have all the documentation

 9     before me if -- how can you ask me to do that from memory?  This was 20

10     years ago.  Give me a document and I'll comment on it.  I insist, if you

11     want me to make the right conclusion, to be allowed to comment on this

12     document because you are misinterpreting it.

13             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honour, I don't feel the need for his comment.

14     He has answered my questions.  I'll leave it to you, if you want to

15     pursue it further.

16             JUDGE KWON:  I think his answer was fair enough.  But why don't

17     you continue.

18             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's have 65 ter 18441 on the screen.

19        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, this is an order from you to the CSB chiefs dated

20     17 July 1992 and I want to draw your attention to the fourth paragraph.

21     You write that it is necessary "to send copies of documents on mass

22     atrocities against Serbs by armed and paramilitary Croat [sic]

23     forces ..."

24             Mr. Stanisic, did you issue this order?

25        A.   Let me just see the signature.  There's no signature, but I know

Page 46535

 1     that a crime was committed in Sijekovac and this area, but we didn't have

 2     any information and we asked for information to be delivered.  The crime

 3     was committed during the times of the former MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 4     and we wanted information about these atrocities that had been committed

 5     earlier, in the end of March, I believe.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Excuse me, Mr. President.  I would like to

 7     intervene here with an objection.  I think this line of questioning

 8     concerning interest of the republican authorities in prosecuting crimes

 9     against Serbs is not appropriate.  Number one, it's not a particularly

10     good use of time and you have been extremely generous to the Prosecution;

11     but secondly, you precluded us throughout the trial from showing the

12     crimes against the Serbs.  And so if you allow the Prosecution to pursue

13     this line, you're creating a very skewed record of concern over things

14     that have never been able to be established.

15             So in the combination of the fact that the Prosecution is way

16     over their time, the very limited probative value of this, and the

17     unfairness of one-sided evidence on -- of this nature, we would ask that

18     it be excluded.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, if I may --

20             JUDGE KWON:  I was waiting for the translation.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Sorry.

22             JUDGE KWON:  Do you like to respond.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honours.

24             During his direct examination, the witness took the position that

25     the RS MUP was investigating war crimes regardless of who the

Page 46536

 1     perpetrators were or who the victims were, that they were doing their job

 2     fully, and I think he even used the words that the policy was clear and

 3     unambiguous.  And that's the issue that I'm confronting.  It's not the

 4     issue of whether, in fact, war crimes were committed against Serbs.  That

 5     is not -- the -- --

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Confronting the witness's evidence.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  I'm confronting the witness's evidence --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  But this is consistent with his evidence, as far as

 9     Serb victims are concerned.

10             MR. OLMSTED:  As far as Serb victims are concerned.  But,

11     Your Honours, you will note that there is no mention here about non-Serb

12     victims.

13             JUDGE KWON:  So your questions should be directed whether he

14     prosecuted non- -- non--- about the crimes committed against non-Serb

15     victims.

16             MR. OLMSTED:  And --

17             JUDGE KWON:  What's the point of raising this issue?  Just

18     respond to Mr. Robinson's point.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes.  Mr. President, we've heard in direct

20     examination that its position that they were --

21             JUDGE KWON:  No.  You understand that we just -- we -- didn't --

22     didn't -- I'm sorry.  We didn't allow the accused to expand on the issue

23     of crimes committed against the Serbs.

24             So could you respond to that point.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  I'll have to defer to -- I don't know the history

Page 46537

 1     of your case so I have to defer to Mr. Tieger.

 2             MR. TIEGER:  I apologise, Mr. President.  I would haven't risen

 3     but I thought that might be the nature of the problem that Mr. Robinson

 4     seemed to be alluding to something that happened in court that

 5     Mr. Olmsted was not familiar with.

 6             This is entirely a red herring.  The Prosecution's case has not

 7     been that the exclusive focus on crimes against Serbs was put into

 8     question by the Prosecution because there were no crimes against Serbs.

 9     We never made that contention, and that's not the issue at all.  The

10     issue is whether or not there was an exclusive - or near exclusive -

11     focus on crimes against Serbs, to the exclusion of crimes against

12     Muslims.

13             So the point that Mr. Robinson makes is entirely inapposite, and

14     I don't think there should be confusion in the record as a result.

15                           [Trial Chamber confers]

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, thank you, Mr. Tieger.  The Chamber agrees with

17     you entirely.

18             Please continue.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Mr. President.

20             Can we just turn to the last page on the B/C/S.

21        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, that's your signature; correct?

22        A.   Yes.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  May this be admitted into evidence, Your Honours.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

25             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit P6641, Your Honours.

Page 46538

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  If we could have 65 ter 25916 on the screen.

 2        Q.   Now, this is a dispatch from CSB Banja Luka to the SJBs, dated

 3     14 December 1992, and Mr. Bulic announces a meeting of senior criminal

 4     investigation service officers from all centres will be held on

 5     21 December at the RS MUP in Bijeljina.  At this meeting:

 6             "The process of documenting crimes, war crimes against the

 7     Serbian civilian population, the crime of genocide, and the war crimes of

 8     destroying Orthodox cemeteries, churches, and other cultural and

 9     historical monuments will be analysed."

10             Mr. Stanisic, the focus of this meeting and the focus of the

11     operative work of your crime inspectors was on crimes committed against

12     Serbs and not against crimes committed by non-Serbs; correct?

13        A.   No, please.  I don't know about this document.  I'm not aware of

14     it because it was not in the purview of the minister in his office.  But

15     your claim that only crimes against Serbs were investigated is not true.

16     Crimes against the entire population of Republika Srpska were

17     investigated.  You're putting questions to me, taking things out of

18     context.  We did investigate all crimes, including against Serbs because

19     that's our job, against both Serbs and Muslims.  And you are only showing

20     me documents that refer to crimes against Serbs, but they are not the

21     only documents.  That was one part of our work, especially because there

22     was a problem with crimes against Serbs in the part of Bosnia-Herzegovina

23     where the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina was active, and they carried victims

24     in, in their arms, and nobody carried out the on-site investigation.

25     There was no on-site investigation.  Only fear remained about the crimes.

Page 46539

 1             You take certain things out of context, and then I get a question

 2     that I cannot answer in a way that -- that would assist getting to the

 3     truth before this Court.  It's true, both crimes against Serbs and

 4     non-Serbs were investigated.  It would be more appropriate to show me the

 5     statistics of 1992 as to how many criminal reports were filed concerning

 6     crimes against Serbs and concerning crimes against Muslims.  That would

 7     give us an authentic picture, especially since the -- there were crimes

 8     that were dealt with by the MUP and crimes dealt with by the military

 9     security.  We should see the statistics concerning the MUP and the crimes

10     that concerned the MUP.

11             I'm sorry, Your Honours, for taking time, but I really tried to

12     clarify things.

13        Q.   Well, let me clarify one thing you said.  Your crime inspectors

14     were not --

15             JUDGE KWON:  Just before --

16             MR. OLMSTED:  Yeah --

17             JUDGE KWON:  Before you answer the question.

18             Mr. Stanisic, did you present that statistics in your trial?

19             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Honour.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

21             Yes, back to you, Mr. Olmsted.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I apologise.  This part of the

23     question refers to an entirely other segment of crimes against the Serbs

24     in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina where on-site investigations were

25     not carried out and still the families brought in victims.  So we tried

Page 46540

 1     to see how we could do some sort of an investigation to leave a trace of

 2     the crimes that were committed.  And now it is being portrayed as only

 3     crimes against the Serbs were investigated, which is not true.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:

 5        Q.   First of all, Mr. Stanisic, if I can put to you this.  It is not,

 6     in fact, the case that you offered statistics on a number of cases

 7     that -- number of case of war crimes committed against non-Serbs that

 8     your RS MUP investigated in 1992 and, in fact, the statistics would be

 9     negligible on that number?

10        A.   Your Honours, but there was also a negligible number of criminal

11     reports that were filed for crimes against the Serbs.

12             There was no distinction made when it came to crimes in the

13     entire territory of Republika Srpska and still it would have been only

14     logical because there's a higher percentage of Serbians living in

15     Republika Srpska so the number of crimes should have been higher and the

16     number of investigations should have been higher.  But the conditions

17     were really difficult.  One could not work well.  We only did as much as

18     we could, given the conditions that prevailed.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, may this document be admitted into

20     evidence.

21             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

22             MR. ROBINSON:  No objection.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  We'll admit it.

24             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6642, Your Honours.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  May we have 65 ter 25913 on the screen.  Now, this

Page 46541

 1     is an activity report from CSB Sarajevo dated 6 October 1992.  And if we

 2     can have -- keep it on page 1 for the English but go to page 2 of the

 3     B/C/S.

 4        Q.   And, Mr. Stanisic, I want to draw your attention to the -- well,

 5     it's the second full paragraph of this report which reports that seven

 6     criminal reports --

 7        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, please.  Let's go back to the first page.  I want

 8     to see who the author of the document is.  And I also want to see the

 9     last page with the signature block, to see who signed it.

10        Q.   All right.  Let's turn to the --

11        A.   And now the last page.

12        Q.   And Mr. Tusevljak testified in your case as a Defence witness,

13     didn't he?

14        A.   Let me say something about the document.  The document was not

15     sent to the minister.  Please.  It was sent to the chief of --

16             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Mr. Stanisic, wait for the question.

17             MR. OLMSTED:

18        Q.   My question simply is that Mr. Tusevljak, who signed this

19     document, was called by you in your case; isn't that correct?

20        A.   Yes.

21        Q.   Now let's focus on the paragraph that I want to draw your

22     attention which is the second full paragraph.  It says that seven

23     criminal reports have already been submitted to competent prosecutor's

24     office against 33 persons for whom there are grounds to suspect they have

25     committed crimes of genocide against the Serbian people.

Page 46542

 1             Mr. Stanisic, this is your crime police executing your orders to

 2     focus on war crimes committed against the Serb population; isn't that

 3     correct?

 4        A.   This was done by the service which elucidated all crimes.

 5             In this particular case, the crime was committed against the

 6     Serbian population.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honour, may this be admitted into evidence.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Where do we find that passage?

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  It's towards the bottom of the page.  Starts with:

10     "Documenting crimes of genocide and war crimes against the Serbian

11     people," and continues from there.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll admit it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6643, Your Honours.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  All right.  Koricanske Stijene.  Let's bring up on

15     the screen D1883.

16        Q.   Now, Mr. Stanisic, we heard your evidence on direct examination.

17     Now what's in front of you is a letter from the Banja Luka prosecutor to

18     CSB Banja Luka dated 30 September 1992 --

19        A.   That's what I can read.

20        Q.   Yes, and this is with regard to the Koricanske Stijene case

21     that's already in evidence in this case.

22             And we see that the prosecutor is returning the case file to the

23     police to identify and arrest the perpetrators.

24             Do you see that?

25        A.   Again, that's what it says here.

Page 46543

 1        Q.   And under the criminal procedures that existed at the time, it

 2     was the duty of the police to identify the perpetrators and to file a

 3     criminal report against known perpetrators; correct?

 4        A.   Yes.

 5        Q.   And until --

 6        A.   If they managed to establish who the perpetrators are.

 7        Q.   And until that criminal report is filed against known

 8     perpetrators, the prosecutor could not request that the criminal

 9     investigation by an investigative judge be initiated; correct?  That was

10     the procedures that existed at the time.

11        A.   No.  The Ministry of the Interior does not assess the quality of

12     evidence at hand.  It is also not authorised to qualify a crime.  It is

13     the prosecutor who does that.  Our obligation was to gather information

14     and to file a criminal report or an official report to forward that

15     information to the prosecutor or to the court and then the prosecutor

16     qualifies the crime -- the crime and asks for additional information to

17     corroborate the evidence at hand.

18             So this, from then on, is within his purview, as well as his

19     co-operation with the authorised organ of the Ministry of the Interior

20     that operates in the territory of that particular court.

21        Q.   Let's return to my question.  Until the prosecutor receives a

22     criminal report against known perpetrators, the prosecutor is not in a

23     position to send a formal request to the court for an investigative judge

24     to initiate a criminal investigation - isn't that correct? - under the

25     criminal procedures codes that existed in 1992.

Page 46544

 1        A.   Please.  The Ministry of the Interior submits information about

 2     the grounds to suspect that somebody perpetrated a crime and the

 3     prosecutor corroborates that suspicion.  So the prosecutor has the right

 4     to ask for additional information, and up to then enough information was

 5     submitted to the public prosecutor to tell him who the possible suspects

 6     are.

 7        Q.   Let me see if I can ask it one last time.

 8             Mr. Stanisic, in order for an investigative judge to begin a

 9     criminal investigation, there has to be a criminal report against

10     identified perpetrators; correct?

11        A.   No, no.  There could be an official report or any sort of

12     information, because the prosecutor was in charge of investigations.  It

13     could be citizens to provide him with information.  It didn't have to be

14     the MUP.  It could be ordinary citizens, and if the prosecutor received

15     such information -- information, they had to proceed with investigation

16     using the help of the Ministry of the Interior.

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Last document.  1D4537 on the screen.

18        Q.   And while this is coming up, Mr. Stanisic, let me ask you:  Did

19     Mr. Karadzic or any member of the RS Presidency ever tell you that four

20     of the perpetrators of the Koricanske massacre were, in fact, identified;

21     that they knew the names of them?

22        A.   I don't remember that.  Maybe you have something that will jog my

23     memory.  I don't remember that Karadzic ever told me any such thing.

24             Give me something.  Give me something to jog my memory.  As

25     things stand at the moment, I don't remember any such thing.

Page 46545

 1        Q.   But you knew that members of the police, of your police,

 2     committed that crime.  You knew this in 1992, didn't you?

 3        A.   All the information that was available was submitted to the

 4     prosecutor, and he proceeded in that case.  The fact is that

 5     everything --

 6        Q.   My question is quite simple --

 7             JUDGE KWON:  I wanted to remind the witness if he -- if he so

 8     wishes, you may invoke your right pursuant to Rule 90(E) at this time.

 9     Because you did so when asked by Mr. Karadzic.

10             Yes, please continue.

11             MR. OLMSTED:

12        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, in 1992, you knew that members of your police had

13     committed the killings, the massacre at Koricanske Stijene; correct?

14        A.   In 1992, I was informed about the incident.  I sent instructions

15     as to what needed to be done, what measures needed to be taken by the

16     Ministry of the Interior.  The Ministry of the Interior acted on my

17     order.  They secured the evidence.  They -- they made sure that witnesses

18     were available.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Stanisic.

20             The question was whether you knew that members of the police had

21     committed the killings.  Could you answer the question.

22             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours, at that moment, I

23     didn't know that the perpetrators were police members.  To this very day,

24     Your Honours, when it comes to the perpetrators of that crime, and this

25     has been investigated here and established here, I claim that people who

Page 46546

 1     committed that crime were members of the intervention platoon from the

 2     military police of the Prijedor intervention platoon, and they had police

 3     members as their escorts.  But according to what I know, the police

 4     escorts were not involved.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Given the time, Mr. Olmsted, we'll allow you

 6     to deal with this document before concluding your cross-examination.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  All right.

 8        Q.   If we could turn -- first of all, you can see from the first

 9     page, Mr. Stanisic, that this is a letter from CJB Banja Luka to

10     Banja Luka district prosecutor's office --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Just -- just a second.  It is probably CSB not CJB.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, actually -- well, if I could give a little

13     bit of history.  At a certain point in time they became CJBs rather than

14     CSBs.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Indeed.

16             MR. OLMSTED:  Yeah.

17        Q.   Now we can see from the subject heading, Mr. Stanisic, that this

18     letter pertains to the Koricanske Stijene case; correct?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Probably CJB at this time.

20             MR. OLMSTED:

21        Q.   And I'm just drawing your attention to the subject matter heading

22     which says Koricanske Stijene report on collecting the necessary

23     information.  You see that, Mr. Stanisic?

24        A.   Yes.

25             MR. OLMSTED:  Let's turn to page 2 of the English.  We'll stay

Page 46547

 1     where we are on the B/C/S.

 2        Q.   Mr. Stanisic, I want you to look at the third paragraph.  The

 3     third paragraph states:

 4             "We also hereby inform you that by checking the protocol books we

 5     have determined that the request of the Banja Luka ... prosecutor's

 6     office ... of 30 September 1992," that's the document we just looked at,

 7     "has been received by the centre, but action was not taken in accordance

 8     with it, nor was any report on collecting the necessary information

 9     submitted to the Banja Luka public prosecutor's office."

10             Mr. Stanisic, my question is:  The police never took any action

11     in response to the prosecutor's request for the police to gather

12     additional information about the perpetrators; isn't that correct?

13        A.   Please.  This was drafted in 1999; right?

14        Q.   That's correct.

15        A.   The police informed the prosecutor that the perpetrators were

16     currently members of the military, and they were on military missions.

17     It was the prosecutor's obligation to approach the military security and

18     to bring those people in.  The police couldn't do that if the

19     perpetrators were members of the army.  That had to be done by the

20     military police.

21        Q.   But, Mr. Stanisic, you'll agree that that is not what this

22     document says.  This document says the police never provided any

23     additional information about this case in response to the prosecutor's

24     30th September 1992 letter, and that was in fact the case, wasn't it,

25     Mr. Stanisic?

Page 46548

 1        A.   Mr. Prosecutor, if I remembered it well from my case, the

 2     prosecutor who was in charge of the case did testify, and said that the

 3     police co-operated with him at the time when that was within the purview

 4     of the police.

 5             You were here.  I don't have that information because the

 6     prosecution took the case over but I am telling you what the prosecutor

 7     in charge of the case stated during my case.  I can't say anything more

 8     than that.

 9        Q.   Well, Mr. Stanisic, I put to that you that that is not, in fact,

10     what that witness said --

11             JUDGE KWON:  Let's conclude.

12             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  You're tendering this document.

14             MR. OLMSTED:  If I may have one last question, Your Honours.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

16             MR. OLMSTED:

17        Q.   Given what you knew about the activities of the CSB Banja Luka

18     and SJB Prijedor, particularly with regard to the -- the detention

19     facilities and non-Serb detainees, you were aware that your two-sentence

20     dispatch from the 31st of August, 1992, would have had no impact

21     whatsoever on that investigation, didn't you?

22             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Zecevic.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  I'm sorry -- I will need to object now and then.

24     Ask Your Honours to compel the witness to testify -- to -- to give this

25     answer to this question.  Thank you.

Page 46549

 1             JUDGE KWON:  So, Mr. Stanisic, you agree to invoke your right

 2     pursuant to Rule 90(E)?

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  For the same reason that we compelled you to

 5     answer the question in your examination-in-chief, we also compel you to

 6     answer this question.

 7             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Please repeat your question.

 8             MR. OLMSTED:

 9        Q.   My question is this:  Given what you knew about the activities of

10     CSB Banja Luka and SJB Prijedor, particularly with regard to non-Serb

11     detainees held in these unofficial detention facilities, you were aware

12     that your two-sentenced dispatch from 31 August 1992 concerning the

13     Koricanske Stijene incident would have no impact whatsoever on the

14     investigation of that case; isn't that correct?

15        A.   Your Honours, it is not correct that I could do anything else at

16     that moment.  I issued an order within my remit.  The order was acted on.

17     The case was handed over to the prosecutor.  It is correct that I

18     couldn't follow the matter through because I was dismissed from my

19     position, but while I was in office, all the actions were taken.  I

20     handed over the case to the prosecutor.  The prosecutor took the case.

21     And then I left and I could no longer have any influence on the course of

22     the investigation.

23             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, if this may be admitted into

24     evidence.  And that concludes my cross-examination and let me express my

25     gratitude to the Trial Chamber for being -- allowing me to finish.

Page 46550

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson, do you have any objection?

 2             MR. ROBINSON:  No, Mr. President.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We will receive it.

 4             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit P6644, Your Honours.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, in view of the

 7     time that you gave to the Prosecutor and the topics that he dealt with,

 8     of course I have questions, quite a few of them, as a matter of fact.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Please proceed.

10             If you wish, we can take a break.

11             THE ACCUSED:  Okay.  We may start the break.  Thank you.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll have a break for half an hour and resume at

13     seven to 11.00.

14                           --- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

15                           --- On resuming at 10.56 a.m.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please proceed, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Good morning,

18     Excellencies, good morning to everybody.

19                           Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:

20        Q.   [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Minister.

21        A.   Good morning.

22        Q.   We are again speaking Serbian so I kindly ask you to pause after

23     my questions.  I'll start with very short questions, I'm hoping for short

24     answers, and I'll start with last things first.

25             On page 32 of today's record, you spoke about the crime that was

Page 46551

 1     committed at Koricanske Stijene.  Could you please tell us how many

 2     professional policemen, if any, were among the perpetrators of the crime?

 3        A.   None.  I just said, they were members of the intervention

 4     platoon, and they were all members of the military police.

 5        Q.   Thank you.  On page 28 of today's transcript, the Prosecutor put

 6     it to you that the prosecutor couldn't do anything before he received a

 7     criminal report.

 8             How often were criminal reports filed, if at all, if the

 9     perpetrator was unknown, an NN perpetrator, as it were?

10        A.   The prosecutor acted on the information received from the

11     Ministry of the Interior.  Most of the time, the perpetrators were

12     unknown because the ministry was duty-bound to register every incident

13     and inform the prosecutor's office about it and also to file a written

14     information, irrespective of whether the identity of the perpetrators was

15     known or unknown.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And now could we please display

18     P6643 in e-court.

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   Could you please tell us which CSB this is?  And what region did

21     it cover?

22        A.   As I can see from the document, this is the

23     Security Services Centre of Romanija and Birac region.

24        Q.   Thank you.  What territory could this CSB access to carry out

25     complete investigations; and what about the crimes that happened in the

Page 46552

 1     territories to which it didn't have access?

 2        A.   I did not understand your question.  Could you please be more

 3     specific or could you rephrase?

 4        Q.   I apologise.  The question was a bit confusing, I admit.

 5             Which territories did this CSB have access to, and, thus, carry

 6     out complete investigations; and which territories could it -- it could

 7     not access?

 8        A.   I already said that initially, up to the month of July, it was

 9     impossible or virtually impossible to move from the place where you were,

10     and the reason for that was combat that was ongoing and communications

11     were interrupted.

12        Q.   Thank you.  So, this centre, what could they do in respect of

13     crimes committed against Serbs in the city of Sarajevo itself that was

14     under Muslim control?

15        A.   They couldn't do anything in Sarajevo.

16        Q.   So then what does documentation mean or, rather, collecting

17     information about crimes against Serbs?  To what extent do they collect

18     evidence and to what extent do they carry out investigations?

19        A.   The centre of security services carries out its work in the

20     territory where it functions, together with its members, and that is

21     where they carry out investigations and everything else as envisaged by

22     the law on the basis of which they operate.

23             Now, as far as crimes against Serbs are concerned, those

24     committed in Sarajevo and elsewhere - there were many - they could only

25     collect information from the families of the victims who managed to get

Page 46553

 1     out of Sarajevo.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  On page 15 of today's transcript, it was stated that

 3     the late-Minister Ostojic had been abused, that you were stopped,

 4     et cetera.

 5             Can you tell us what the reason was for the Yellow Wasps to turn

 6     against the authorities?

 7        A.   Well, I don't know.  I cannot speak specifically about all of

 8     their motives.  But in terms of what we know, first of all, they wanted

 9     to take the area, even physically, to create pre-conditions for

10     themselves, and then they carry out these crimes.

11        Q.   Thank you.  Why were they not courteous to the authorities?  On

12     page 15 or 16, you said that you had already initiated proceedings.  What

13     was the reason?  Did they know that you had started these proceedings?

14     Was that wise?  Wasn't it wiser for them to be courteous?

15        A.   Please.  As soon as conditions were created and as soon as we

16     found out, I personally sent people to collect documentation, how many of

17     them there were there and how many weapons they had, and so on and so

18     forth.  So all of these tactical measures, in order to prepare this work

19     so that at a given point in time when conditions are created and when

20     reinforcements arrive from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, this could

21     be eliminated because, at that moment, we did not have available forces

22     in Zvornik, in order to have such forces resolve that problem.

23        Q.   Thank you.  So what were the crimes for which they were arrested

24     and eliminated as a unit?

25        A.   When they were arrested, it was the military security and members

Page 46554

 1     of the Ministry of the Interior that took part in their arrest, and they

 2     were reinforced with this detachment from the Federal Republic

 3     of Yugoslavia.  That is how this group was divided.  There were a great

 4     many of them.  According to the information that I received that was

 5     compiled after the arrest, military security took Vuckovic, Repic - I

 6     think that was the name - and there was a suspicion that he had committed

 7     war crimes in Zvornik, I think against 200 persons.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  What was the ethnicity of the victims?

 9        A.   The victims were of Muslim ethnicity and the mentioned person was

10     of Serb ethnicity.  As a matter of fact, he was a citizen of the

11     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  I think he was from Sabac.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Were they indicted and convicted because they stopped

13     Minister Ostojic and you?

14        A.   Well, no way.  You see that that's not even mentioned at all in

15     the notes and in the reports of the crime police and the military

16     security that dealt with this other part.  There is no mention of any

17     ministers.

18        Q.   Thank you.  On page 10 of today's transcript, I'm afraid that the

19     word that you used "inokosan [phoen]" for Malko Koroman was not precisely

20     translated as being a single head of a particular organisation.  Why

21     would somebody be eligible to work in one body where he would not be the

22     single person in charge or in another body where he would be the single

23     person in charge?

24        A.   First of all, it depends on the quality of the person involved

25     and jobs are allocated on that basis.  And the assessment was that

Page 46555

 1     Malko Koroman, and it was Alija Delimustafic who appointed him chief

 2     before the war in Pale, and in May my assessment was that could not do

 3     this job properly.  Of course, to the best of my knowledge, when I left

 4     in 1992, the disciplinary commission interviewed him, I mean, they did

 5     their work, and it was established that there were no incriminations

 6     involved and then he was allocated a job on the basis of his quality.  So

 7     he was removed from a position where he could broadly exercise influence

 8     over what that organ -- done.  Rather, he was given a job where he had

 9     specific tasks and he was the only person who was responsible for

10     carrying out those tasks.

11        Q.   Thank you.  On page 13, a document from the 11th of April, 1992,

12     was shown to you and it has to with Brne.  On the 11th of April, 1992,

13     did we have criminal records in respect of this Gavrilovic?

14        A.   We did not have any records whatsoever and you can see on the

15     basis of our reports that it was stated that that is precisely the

16     greatest reason for making our work so difficult in terms of carrying out

17     a selection in order to make an assessment as to which persons were prone

18     to what kind of crime.

19        Q.   Thank you.  You said that persons first volunteered and then

20     became renegades; paramilitaries.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P2302, could we have a look at that

22     now.  Yes, there is a translation.  This has already been admitted.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   So on the 9th of July, the war board of commissioners of Ilidza

25     is saying that the use of the motel is being approved to them as a

Page 46556

 1     volunteer unit, and down here it says that:

 2             "The commander, Branislav Gavrilovic, will be conducting

 3     admission and training of Serbian volunteers arriving to this area."

 4             Is this something that was not allowed on the basis of the law?

 5     Is this acceptable?

 6        A.   No.  The law, even in the former Yugoslavia, and then also our

 7     own regulations say, there was this category of volunteers.  I mean,

 8     first in the JNA and then later on in the Army of Republika Srpska.

 9        Q.   In the transcript, yet again, but it is a question of double

10     negation.  It doesn't exist in English.

11             So was this allowed on the basis of the law?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   Thank you.  Later on, since there was this lack of control, did

14     you take any measures in respect of these volunteers and other

15     individuals that got out of control?

16        A.   I claim that all paramilitary groups that appeared were arrested

17     during 1992 and expelled from the territory of Republika Srpska.  And we

18     did not do that -- I mean, it wasn't only we as Ministry of the Interior

19     that did that.  Those who were renegades, those who had nothing do with

20     the military, and then the army dealt with those who came to them as

21     volunteers and became renegades as well, and they still had the status of

22     members of the army.  Then the army dealt with them and expelled them.

23     Now to what extent, I don't know.  It was really up to them.  I do know,

24     I do know seriously, that they did deal with that problem.

25        Q.   Thank you.

Page 46557

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

 2     D1076.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   On the 3rd of August, were you still minister?

 5        A.   Yes.

 6        Q.   Please, could you focus on this.  So it is the administration for

 7     police duties and affairs that is sending you a report; right?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   On the realisation of your order?

10        A.   Yes, that is what it says:  Report on the realisation of the

11     order strictly confidential, et cetera.  That is my order.

12        Q.   Thank you.

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have the next page now.  I

14     believe it should be the next page in both languages.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation] It says here:

16             "Acting in accordance with your order, I visited most stations."

17             Now would you focus on this paragraph:

18             "I insisted with the chief of the public security station Ilidza

19     that the problem of so-called Brnetovci [phoen], Brne's men, and Chetniks

20     from the detachment Dusan Silni who were staying in the orchard at

21     Rakovica should be solved in agreement with the army command."

22             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  Could we have the next

23     page.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is the next page in English.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 46558

 1        Q.   "These units have around 100 members.  They are well armed and

 2     act independently.  Although according to the chief of the SJB Ilidza

 3     they have not been making any problems, I still insisted in accordance

 4     with your order that their status be resolved in agreement with the Serb

 5     army so that they should either be put under the single command or they

 6     should leave the area of Ilidza."

 7             Was this in accordance with your order?

 8        A.   Yes.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Can you say how this developed further, the

10     relationship between them and the army?  Did the state security provide

11     information as to ...

12        A.   You see, I cannot remember all the details now, but I know that

13     all para units that were in the territory of Republika Srpska were

14     subjected to expulsions, arrests, expulsions from the territory of

15     Republika Srpska.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] P2305, could that document please

18     be shown to the witness now?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  Before we go --

20             You just saw this document from Sarajevo - what is it? -

21     administration for police tasks.

22             Now you agree -- agree with the authenticity of this document?

23             Shall we upload it again, D1076.

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] No, I spoke about the content of

25     the document.  I mean, I answered the questions put by Mr. Karadzic.  I

Page 46559

 1     think that this document was before us a short while ago, when the

 2     Prosecutor was putting his questions.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Yes.  This is page 2, but the document is dated the

 5     3rd of August, 1992, and also it refers to the number of your order.

 6        A.   Now I saw it when you showed it to me.  But you just read out a

 7     paragraph.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please see the first page

 9     of this document.  Thank you.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   It has an ERN number.  And you see the heading here where it

12     says:  Report on the realisation of the order strictly confidential,

13     et cetera.  Acting on your order, was that your order?

14        A.   Yes, my order --

15             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not understand the

16     date.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   The answer is the 3rd of August; right?

19        A.   Yes.  That means that the chief of centre -- no, of this

20     department for police affairs did act on the basis of my order, and he

21     did compile this report.  And I see it says here "submit to the

22     Ministry of the Interior, to the minister."

23             JUDGE KWON:  Do you agree that you received this?

24             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot remember now whether I

25     received it.  But, yes, certainly it is a report on the basis of my

Page 46560

 1     order, because I sent this order, and that is how I identify this report.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  But in answering the question from Mr. Olmsted, you

 3     stated:  Perhaps somebody from the street had simply written this, I

 4     cannot say.

 5             Do you stand by it, that answer?

 6             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, I said that.  Because there

 7     was no number up there and there was no signature.  Well, now, too.  I

 8     mean, I claim that this is my order.  I mean, what Mr. Karadzic asked me

 9     about, I didn't see that before because we were focussed on one

10     paragraph that the Prosecutor showed me.

11             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

12             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And I claim now, too, it doesn't

13     have a number.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Thank you.

15             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  P2305 now, please.  And

17     then page 2 immediately so that we could see who it was that sent this.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Do you know who this person is who sent it, Minister?

20        A.   It says Srdjan Sehovac.  He was the commander, I think, at the

21     Novo Sarajevo police station, if I remember correctly.  And I think I do.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to page 1 now.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Is it possible that he worked for national security?

25        A.   Yes.  Sorry, there were two persons named Sehovac:  One was

Page 46561

 1     Srdjan, the other one was Goran.  Goran was commander of the station in

 2     Novo Sarajevo, and Srdjan worked in national security.  I'm sorry about

 3     this mistake.  It was a long time ago.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  It's an Official Note from him and the first

 5     paragraph says it relates to Brne's men.  And then he says in the second

 6     paragraph with the arrival of the new commander, Colonel Spasoje Cajic,

 7     Brne's formation felt that it would no longer have the privileges it used

 8     to have.

 9             And then it says further on:

10             "It should be emphasised that the civilian authorities and

11     employees of the MUP are in their way because they slander them as

12     thieves and criminals," et cetera.

13             Tell me, was there any love lost between the official

14     authorities, including the police, and these Brne's men?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

16             MR. OLMSTED:  We object because it's leading.  This is certainly

17     not an issue that is covered by his line of questioning thus far, and

18     Mr. Karadzic should have presented a question before directing this

19     witness to this particular passage and ask for him to comment on it.

20             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, I agree.  But it is related to the issue of the

21     point raised with respect to Gavrilovic.

22             Do you follow -- did you follow the point of Mr. Olmsted,

23     Mr. Karadzic?  Please reformulate your question.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.  I

25     apologise.  I will do so now.

Page 46562

 1             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 2        Q.   Mr. Minister, from the -- from the month of April until this date

 3     here, in February, what was the evolution of the attitude to this unit?

 4        A.   All the units -- all the criminal groups, rather, that came to

 5     Republika Srpska, the rule was that, first of all, they would create a

 6     territory for themselves and attack the police and the authorities who

 7     tried to prevent them.  It says here that they are manoeuvring to create

 8     their own space, and this official is reporting about it.

 9        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday, on page 84, you were quoted as saying,

10     "They took thieves and criminals ..."

11             Can you tell me, did the Serbian Radical Party nominate people

12     who were not criminals to positions that belonged to the Serbs in the

13     MUP?

14        A.   There was talk about two different things.  I was talking about

15     members who were bent on crime, and they existed from the times of the

16     former regime.  They were activated as reservists.  Under the aegis of

17     the former Ministry of the Interior, they were called up because not

18     enough non-Serbs responded to call-ups to the JNA.  I don't know what

19     kind of influence the SDS could have had.  Anything I would say would be

20     speculation.  But as for the personnel who were senior, whom I didn't

21     discuss at that assembly session, my answer would be the same.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Correction to the transcript.  It's

23     not the Serbian Radical Party but the Serbian Democratic Party.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   But my question was a bit different.  In dividing positions in

Page 46563

 1     the MUP --

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  I didn't stand up in time for the first time he

 4     asked the question, but I'll stand up at this time and say it's a leading

 5     question.  The witness didn't answer it the first time and we object to

 6     it being asked a second time.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Who came to the positions that belonged to the Serbian people in

11     the MUP?

12        A.   To the position which, in the distribution of positions between

13     the HDZ, the SDA, and the SDS belonged to different ethnic groups,

14     members of those ethnic groups would be assigned.  It couldn't be

15     otherwise.  In our former Ministry of the Interior, all the people I know

16     were professionals, even before the national parties ever emerged, and

17     some of them later were assigned to these positions on behalf of the

18     Serbian people.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday on page 79, a document was displayed which

20     you said was incomplete, and it says that five Muslims were in Ljubinje

21     and one in Nevesinje.  What is missing from that report?  Which areas and

22     how much territory is not covered by that report?

23        A.   Most of Republika Srpska if we are talking about Ljubinje,

24     Kalinovik, and did you say Nevesinje?

25        Q.   Ljubinje and Kalinovik.  I apologise.

Page 46564

 1        A.   That's part of the old Herzegovina.  So it's a minor part

 2     compared to the total of six or seven centres.

 3        Q.   What was the share of Muslim population in Kalinovik and

 4     Ljubinje?

 5        A.   I know that these were municipalities with a majority Serb

 6     population, but I don't know the exact percentage.  It was a considerable

 7     Serb majority.

 8        Q.   Mr. Minister, did you attend the parade of the MUP unit in

 9     Banja Luka on the 12th and 13th May, 1992, after the assembly session?

10        A.   Yes.  I did not attend the session of the assembly, but I came to

11     the parade.

12        Q.   Did you speak at that parade?

13        A.   Yes.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we just see D414, which is

15     the transcript, and we can even play it.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   What was the stance taken by Mr. Zupljanin and yourself regarding

18     the work of non-Serb policemen at that centre?

19             JUDGE KWON:  Before we upload it.

20             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, I don't see how this arises out of my

22     cross-examination.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Hmm.  I don't know ...

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I will say it now.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Yes -- just collapse this document first, for the

Page 46565

 1     moment.

 2             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, how does this arise from the

 3     cross-examination?

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, it was

 5     challenged that the MUP also employed non-Serbs; that is to say, Croats

 6     and Muslims.  This document is needed for us to see how things really

 7     were.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  I -- I just stood up to make sure that -- that

10     Mr. Karadzic wasn't going any further on his explanation.  But let's

11     see -- I say we can see the documents and ...

12             JUDGE KWON:  But I wonder whether Mr. Karadzic can ask questions

13     before he put this document.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I thought I have already put the

15     question.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   What was the stance taken by Mr. Zupljanin and by this minister,

18     the witness, towards the work of non-Serbs in the police?

19        A.   I expressed my position through my order.  That means that all

20     the employees of the ministry from the former Bosnia-Herzegovina who are

21     located in the Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina should stay in

22     their jobs as employees of the Ministry of the

23     Interior of Republika Srpska.  That was my desire.  And if it had

24     materialised that way, things would have been much better.

25        Q.   At that rally, was there any discussion about the presence of

Page 46566

 1     Muslims and Croats in the police?

 2        A.   Certainly there was a large number of them.  I don't know the

 3     exact number, but I know that all who had previously worked in the

 4     ministry, non-Serbs who had worked previously in the ministry, were still

 5     there.  I can't give you the exact number, and I don't want to speculate.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the document now.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] To avoid wasting time, we won't

 9     play the video.  That's 945 -- 494, sorry.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   Look at page 1.  Is this what you said or answered?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   And you say here that although things are apparently

14     satisfactory, caution is necessary?

15        A.   Mr. Karadzic, when I accepted the position of minister, in my

16     platform, I announced that I would work strictly professionally and

17     within my jurisdiction and powers.  I was talking about the results

18     achieved by the ministry in terms of security in Republika Srpska.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page; line 32 and 33, which is

20     the speech of Mr. Zupljanin.

21             [In English] English too.

22             [Interpretation] He says here:  These people who addressed the

23     MUP were asking desperately and begging that problems should be solved.

24             Could we see the next page.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 46567

 1        Q.   I'll read it out to you:

 2             "I am really happy to be able to stress here that about

 3     85 per cent of authorised officials, including many members of other

 4     ethnicities who remained to work in this centre of security services, and

 5     they are still among our ranks."

 6             Do you remember what he said, this particular passage; and do you

 7     remember that he received an ovation from 50.000 people?

 8        A.   Can I see that page again in Serbian?

 9        Q.   Thirty-two, 33.

10        A.   Yes, yes.  I hadn't seen this passage before.  Now I confirm that

11     Stojan Zupljanin, indeed, said that.

12        Q.   Does it mean -- what does it mean that authorised officers signed

13     the solemn declaration?  And were the non-Serb employees --

14             THE INTERPRETER:  Could the witness be asked not to start

15     answering before the question is over.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Could you repeat your answer.  Interpreters couldn't

17     hear you because of the overlap.

18             THE INTERPRETER:  The question was not finished either.

19             MR. OLMSTED:  [Overlapping speakers] ... [Microphone not

20     activated] yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  I'm sorry, the question was not interpreted in full

22     either.

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I apologise.

24             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

25        Q.   I asked:  What does it mean that authorised officials were

Page 46568

 1     signing solemn declarations and does it mean that other employees,

 2     non-Serbs, had to do it too, if they were working in the MUP?

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Again, Your Honour, leading.  He could have simply

 4     stopped with his first part of this question but then he suggests an

 5     answer.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm asking only why only authorised

 8     officers are singled out here.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Are there employees in the MUP who are not authorised?

11        A.   [No interpretation]

12             JUDGE KWON:  You're answering too quickly.  Please put a pause

13     before you start answering the question.

14             Yes, could you repeat your answer.

15             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In the Ministry of the Interior,

16     there are not only authorised officers.  There's an entire administration

17     dealing with legal and -- and other affairs.  There is the fire brigade,

18     et cetera.  Only authorised officials who are officers make a solemn

19     declaration when signing an employment contract.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Thank you.  And now can we go to the following page, please.

22     Look at the first sentence.  Read it to the full stop.

23             [No interpretation]

24             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, we're not hearing any interpretation.

25             Could you indicate what passage you are reading from?

Page 46569

 1             THE ACCUSED:  First two lines in Serbian.  And in -- in English,

 2     it's fifth, sixth, and seventh from the top.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Please proceed.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   Do you remember, Mr. Minister, what he said at that time?  And

 6     how did you and the people react to that claim?

 7        A.   I remember what he said, and what I'm reading here confirms

 8     everything that he said.  It is true that after that he was greeted by a

 9     round of applause by everybody who was present in the square.  There were

10     thousands of them.  There were a lot of people present in the square in

11     front of the building where Stojan was speaking.

12        Q.   Thank you.  Can you give us a summary - it doesn't have to be

13     precise - of how many Croats and Muslims worked in other institutions,

14     those who were not part of that report?

15        A.   I have to tell you that there were two stages in that.  Initially

16     a significant number of Muslims and Croats remained working in the

17     Ministry of the Interior.  Mr. Delimustafic sent a dispatch which created

18     a problem.  The president of the Crisis Staff of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

19     Ejub Ganic, and himself invited all the members of Muslim ethnicity who

20     were still working in the MUP to leave it because they would not have any

21     rights because we were deemed to be illegal, and then people started

22     leaving, but some of them remained working in the Ministry of the

23     Interior of Republika Srpska.  I can't give you the percentages of

24     various ethnic groups.  But, as I say, it was then that the problem was

25     created and when the two persons I have just mentioned sent them that

Page 46570

 1     dispatch, they started leaving the MUP.

 2        Q.   Thank you.  Yesterday you were shown a report drafted by

 3     Mr. Zupljanin and sent to you.  In that report, it was stated that the

 4     military brought civilians to the MUP, those of Croat and Muslim

 5     ethnicities, and left them there for the MUP to look after them.

 6             Why were civilians brought from somewhere?  Where were they

 7     brought from; and why was it the army who did that?

 8        A.   It would be pure speculation if I told you anything about those

 9     specific situations.

10             I know what Stojan Zupljanin said.  However, if you're asking me

11     who was supposed to look after those people under such circumstances, it

12     should have been the civilian protection that existed within the

13     Ministry of Defence that had to look after the civilians to move them

14     from such places where they were threatened, and that was all in keeping

15     with international laws.  They were the -- a part of the same

16     organisation as the military, the Ministry of Defence.  I don't know how

17     things were in reality.  I just told you what I knew.

18        Q.   The document number is P1097, that was Zupljanin's document.

19     What did he do?  Was his reaction appropriate or in appropriate when he

20     informed you about the problem?

21        A.   Within the remit of his competencies, he couldn't deal with a

22     problem that should have been dealt by the military.  That's why he

23     presented the problem at the collegium and then I informed you about

24     those things that we couldn't deal with.  I invoked your authority and

25     asked you to resolve the problem as soon as possible.

Page 46571

 1             MR. OLMSTED:  Objection, Your Honours.  Leading.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Already answered.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  [Microphone not activated] Yes.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, please continue.

 5             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is the only way,

 6     Your Excellencies.  This document was taken as if it was against me,

 7     although Zupljanin actually acted within the law.  I just want to

 8     establish whether he did things by the book or not.

 9             JUDGE KWON:  Just continue without leading.

10             THE ACCUSED: [Microphone not activated]

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.  We didn't hear your question.

13             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

14        Q.   You have just told us that you informed me about all that.

15        A.   The prime minister and yourself.

16        Q.   Thank you.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to call up D3966.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Is this the document?  It was drafted on the 8th of August.  It

20     was drafted on your behalf by the assistant for the police, Mr. Kovac.

21        A.   No, no.  That document was issued on the 17th of July, I believe.

22        Q.   Very well.  When we have this document before us, let's please

23     look at the following, please -- page.

24             Look at the page.  I don't want to read it because everybody can

25     read.

Page 46572

 1             Is this the position of the Ministry of the Interior?  Is this

 2     its attitude towards the civilian population?

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Let's collapse the document.

 4             You could put it without presenting the document.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   What was the attitude of the Ministry of the Interior towards the

 7     civilian population of any ethnicity?  What was the treatment according

 8     to the civilian population?

 9        A.   You can see from a number of my orders that my position was

10     clear.  In -- in all of them, I emphasised clearly that those problems

11     should be dealt with energetically.  That would be that.

12             I saw the document, actually, I wanted to say something about it

13     as well, but then you collapsed it.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go back and see the second

15     page of the document?

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   I would like to ask you whether that document reflects what was

18     your position and the position of the ministry.

19             Zupljanin's dispatch was sent on the 20th of July, and the

20     document before us was issued on the 8th of August.

21        A.   This document is a product of all of our activities.  Mr. Kovac

22     was the assistant for policing, and all information about the police went

23     through him.  In this document, he clearly advocates the application of

24     rules and regulations in treating with the civilian population, which was

25     in keeping with all of our orders.

Page 46573

 1        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Minister, the Prosecutor showed you a piece of

 2     information -- or a report from the public security station in Ilidza.

 3     The document number is P6639.

 4             Yes, I apologise.

 5             You mentioned your own order issued on the 17th of August, 1992.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 65 ter 5299.

 7     No, no, not -- not this one.  65 ter 5299.  The transcript reflects a

 8     good number.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   A week after Kovac's document, could you please tell us, you

11     issued this order to a chief or, rather, was it sent to all the CSB

12     chiefs?  What did you want to do with it?

13        A.   To all the CSBs for the attention of chiefs personally.

14        Q.   What did you want to achieve with this order?

15        A.   The order is quite unequivocal and clear.  If you want me, I can

16     read it:

17             "I again order," which means that either one or several orders

18     had been issued before that, "that all employees of CSBs, SJBs, and their

19     organisational units, that is all the employees of the MUP, in their

20     treatment of prisoners of war and civilian population-refugees act

21     strictly according to law, within the remit of the MUP and according to

22     laws of war and international conventions which regulate the subject

23     matter."

24        Q.   Thank you.  I'd like to intervene.  The -- the interpretation is

25     good, but in the last sentence, it says "the persons who perform

Page 46574

 1     regulations."

 2             Does it mean violate regulations?

 3        A.   Yeah, violate regulations, and act contrary to our own rules and

 4     regulations and international laws regulating this subject matter,

 5     irrespective of whether they were civilians or members of the MUP or the

 6     military.

 7             Immediately collect information and documentation and file a

 8     criminal report to the competent prosecutor's office.

 9             This is my order and it is dated 17 August.

10        Q.   Thank you.  What is the population that you sought protection

11     for?  Who were prisoners of war and refugees in our war?

12        A.   Who could they have been?  The position [as interpreted] signed,

13     the entire civilian population, all the refugees.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Yes we'll receive it.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4280, Your Honours.

17             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

18        Q.   You said that that was a repeated order, which means that you had

19     issued previous orders to that effect.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we now see 5294.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Did you co-operate with the military with regard to those crimes

23     and compliance with the law?

24        A.   The co-operation between the military and the MUP went through

25     the security organs in the army.  We worked together on elucidating

Page 46575

 1     crimes and capturing the perpetrators.  It was war time and that group

 2     could comprise of civilians and soldiers.  In order to avoid a situation

 3     where they would not be punished because of the confusion of

 4     competencies we decided to work together and that we should process those

 5     people according to our competencies.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we go to the following page.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Is this your signature, is this your document?

 9        A.   Yes.

10        Q.   And you sent it to the Main Staff, the administration for

11     intelligence; right?

12        A.   Yes.

13        Q.   In the second paragraph it says that you again underlined the

14     need to co-operate and act in co-ordination with military organs to

15     prevent and detect a rising number of crimes; is that correct?

16        A.   Yes.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the document be admitted.

18             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

19                           [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]

20             THE REGISTRAR:  This will be Exhibit D4281, Your Honours.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Mr. Minister, yesterday on pages 71 and 73, you were

24     reproached -- the establishment of war units and then that you ordered

25     that the territory should be controlled against terrorist groups.

Page 46576

 1     According to our law, who is supposed to control the territory --

 2             THE INTERPRETER:  Could Mr. Karadzic please repeat his question.

 3             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] In a statement of emergency.

 4             JUDGE KWON:  Please repeat your question, Mr. Karadzic.  But he

 5     was never reproached for that.

 6             Yes, please continue.  Interpreters didn't hear your question.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Mr. Minister, according to our laws, who is it who controls a

 9     conflict zone and who controls the rest of the territory?

10        A.   In a state of emergency and in a state of war, the entire

11     territory is divided into zones under the authority of the corps, of

12     course.  Military organs are duty-bound to deal with crimes that fall

13     within the jurisdiction of military prosecutor's offices and military

14     courts, which means that they performed the tasks that are performed by

15     the Ministry of the Interior in peacetime.

16             As for the MUP, within those zones, if something concerns exclusively

17     the remit of the Ministry of the Interior, they will deal with that if it

18     falls within the jurisdiction of civilian courts.

19        Q.   Thank you.  Do you know or, rather, did you receive from me

20     certain instructions and guide-lines on the functioning of defence forces

21     and state organs in a state of war or a state of emergency?

22        A.   I remember that these guide-lines were discussed by the

23     government, but you'd need to show me a document.

24        Q.   Thank you.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

Page 46577

 1     D3111.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  To save time, I'm anticipating that this will be

 4     leading.  The question should be, What were those instructions or

 5     guide-lines, before Mr. Karadzic shows him a document and ask him to

 6     confirm whether that, in fact, was the guide-lines.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  He confirmed that he received the instruction from

 8     the president.  And what was the problem showing that document?

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  I was just anticipating, Your Honour, a leading

10     question that was going to be of the nature that I'm concerned about.

11     That there could have been another question in there regarding what those

12     guide-lines were about before putting the document to the witness and

13     saying, you know, Is this the guide-line I issued.

14                           [Trial Chamber confers]

15             JUDGE KWON:  We cannot rule on that without hearing the question.

16             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Minister, what was the intervention of the Presidency and the

20     president based on?  The behaviour of the MUP, instructions about the

21     behaviour of the MUP, what was that based on?

22        A.   You acted within your authority.  In this case, the constitution

23     and the Law on National Defence.  That is to say, in addition to the fact

24     that you are the Supreme Commander of the armed forces, you also

25     establish the number of members of the active-duty force and reservists

Page 46578

 1     of the ministry, and also you issue general instructions, in terms of

 2     what the ministry should do in cases of a state of emergency or a state

 3     of war.

 4        Q.   Thank you.  From the preamble, can you tell who it was that

 5     prepared this proposal that I passed?

 6        A.   Articles 5 and 7, Official Gazette, et cetera, et cetera.  The

 7     proposal of the government of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina,

 8     the president of the Serb Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina is passing the

 9     following guide-lines on tasks, modes of action, and functioning of

10     defence forces of state organs and subjects in the field of economy and

11     social activities, Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, in a state

12     of war.

13        Q.   Minister, have you ever heard of Variants A and B, and have you

14     ever acted in accordance with them?

15             JUDGE KWON:  Does it arise from the cross-examination,

16     Mr. Karadzic?

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Excellencies, I wish to

18     establish, on the basis of what the authorities acted.  And he was the

19     authority during the first year, preeminently so.

20             But I can give up.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Minister, do you remember what was prescribed as an obligation of

23     the Ministry of the Interior in these guide-lines?

24        A.   Well, I can remember in general terms.  But you can show it to

25     me.  I cannot go into detail.  You can show it to me and then I can

Page 46579

 1     confirm.  It's been a long time.

 2        Q.   All right.  I'll show that you --

 3        A.   So that I read it.

 4        Q.   Do you remember what it was like, whether the ministry received

 5     any tasks about documenting crimes; and, if so, against which population?

 6        A.   I can just say that I remember that a constant topic was the

 7     struggle against all perpetrators of crimes.  And also uncovering these

 8     crimes, regardless of the victims and perpetrators involved.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I have page 4 in Serbian.  It

10     would be chapter 3.  And then it will be easier to find it in English

11     too.

12             Now, it is being recalled here, quite literally, this is in the

13     imperative:  What the ministry will do.  Could we have the Serbian and

14     the English turned to the next pages.

15             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

16        Q.   Minister, the very end, this last paragraph, what does it speak

17     of; and what is the civilian population that is referred to there?

18        A.   You mean the last paragraph in Serbian?

19        Q.   Yes, yes, on the top.

20        A.   Do you mean the last one or do you mean the one on the top?

21        Q.   The last one in three.

22        A.   I don't have three.  I have 11, 12, 13, and up here I have this

23     paragraph that doesn't have a number.

24        Q.   Oh.  All right.

25        A.   "The Ministry of the Interior and its organisational parts shall

Page 46580

 1     collect and process data and material on the crimes committed and

 2     genocide over the civilian population."

 3        Q.   Is it specified there which civilian population, which ethnicity?

 4        A.   It goes without saying, there is just one civilian population,

 5     the civilian population throughout.  And, of course, it goes without

 6     saying, it is irrespective of ethnic background, all of those who live in

 7     the area.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  Minister --

 9             JUDGE KWON:  But what does this genocide refer to, Mr. Stanisic?

10             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think, my opinion is,

11     Your Honour, that this refers to what should be done, that if that does

12     happen, then information should be collected about that too.  So this is

13     a lasting task.  It doesn't have to do with a concrete event.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Which genocide does this refer to?  That was

15     my question.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honour, I do not see -- well,

17     you see, there are tasks there.  There is no specific genocide here.  It

18     says here they will work on collecting and processing data and material

19     on crimes committed and genocide over the civilian population.  That is

20     to say, if it is committed, then it is the duty of the

21     Ministry of the Interior to collect documents.  That is my understanding

22     of it now and that was my understanding of it then.  Had it been anything

23     concrete, it would have been stated concretely.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  I leave it at that.

25             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

Page 46581

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 2             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 3        Q.   On page 71 of yesterday's transcript, the Prosecutor said that

 4     you had made some plan with war units and you invoked the law.

 5             What were the legal and strategic bases?  What was the attitude

 6     of the Yugoslav state towards a state of emergency and a state of war,

 7     imminent threat of war?  What were the legal obligations involved?

 8        A.   As far as this document was concerned, I only acted within the

 9     regulations that were in force at that time in that area.  The

10     regulations that had to do with this subject matter are the

11     Law on National Defence and the strategy of All People's Defence and

12     Social Self-protection.  And all organs at the time had to have plans for

13     possible preparations for defence.  I acted on the basis of the law.

14     There were also inspections taking place at the time.  If an

15     organisation - even an economic organisation - did not have that kind of

16     plan, they would be punished for not having one.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please show in e-court

18     1D8801.  In English, please -- oh, it's not ...

19             1D49070, could that be shown on half of the page for purposes of

20     having English.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Minister, can you tell us, can you confirm that this had been

23     very recent at the time, passed in 1987?

24        A.   Yes.

25        Q.   Thank you.  Could we have the Serbian on the left-hand side.

Page 46582

 1             Who passed this document?

 2        A.   I think the Presidency of -- the Presidency of Yugoslavia.  The

 3     president, Lazar Mojsov, as far as I can remember.  This is just my

 4     recollection.  But I think it is an approximately correct or totally

 5     correct.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 7             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honours, this goes beyond the scope of my

 8     cross-examination.  I never went into these kind of issues.  This

 9     document is from well before the conflict, 1987, and I'm not sure if I

10     mentioned the word TO.

11             JUDGE KWON:  You mentioned the war unit, war organisation.  You

12     dealt with it.  And then -- and then you dealt with the involvement in

13     combat operation and specialist operation.  So this may be related to

14     that issue.  We'll see how it evolves.

15             Please -- please continue.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] We don't have the translation of

17     all the pages in English but could we have the next page in both

18     languages -- or, rather, in Serbian, the next two pages, or the next one.

19             [In English] In English, too, please.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   You mentioned Lazar Mojsov --

22             JUDGE KWON:  Probably page 3 in English.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   Minister, was this document in force in 1992?

25        A.   Yes.  The constitutional law on the constitution of

Page 46583

 1     Bosnia-Herzegovina said at the time that all the regulations of the

 2     former Yugoslavia would be in force in the Serb Republic of

 3     Bosnia-Herzegovina but that is the -- the way it was in the other parts,

 4     I think, too; in the Croatian part and the Federation of

 5     Bosnia-Herzegovina, et cetera.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The next page in Serbian.  And I

 7     kindly ask the Trial Chamber for their indulgence and patience, if they

 8     could hear the minister read a paragraph, something that President Tito

 9     said about national defence.

10             The next page in Serbian, and we do not have a translation for

11     that.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Minister, could you please read this out slowly.

14        A.   "Work related to All People's Defence and social self-protection

15     are being carried out and increasingly so, if I may put it that way.

16     Through work and parallel to work, they become therefore a part of

17     regular everyday activities and work tasks."

18        Q.   Slowly, please.

19        A.   "Working people and citizens, self-managers, organised

20     themselves, their defence and self-protection, in work communities and

21     social political community and only indispensable joint activities shall

22     be transferred to social communities through specially organised

23     institutions, like the Yugoslav People's Army and the security services.

24     In that way, in practice, we ensure the socialisation of the defence

25     function.  That is, in other social -- that is, alienated in other social

Page 46584

 1     systems from the working people.  This is in practice the implementation

 2     of the Marxist concept of the armed people.  Signed Tito."

 3        Q.   [No interpretation]

 4        A.   [No interpretation]

 5             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreter's note:  We did not hear

 6     Mr. Karadzic's question or the answer.  This was the sight translation of

 7     the document on the screen.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Karadzic, the interpreters didn't hear your last

 9     comment, or your question.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   The question was:  Who signed this?  Who said this?

12        A.   These are the words of Josip Broz Tito, the president of the

13     former Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  And All People's Defence and

14     social self-protection were built on that basis.

15        Q.   This document, did it mean -- or, rather, did it provide certain

16     tasks to the Ministries of the Interior as well?

17        A.   I don't understand what you mean.  This, what is written, or the

18     strategy?

19        Q.   I mean the strategy.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we have page 15 in English.

21     We don't have it in Serbian, unfortunately.  Not everything has been

22     uploaded.  Maybe it's 16 or 17 in e-court, and maybe 15 is written on it.

23             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

24        Q.   I'm going to read out the lower part to you.  I'm going to read

25     it out slowly, Minister:

Page 46585

 1             "The organs of internal affairs and state and public security

 2     services, as specialised professional organs of social self-protection,

 3     shall be active in an area caught up in an emergency situation, and

 4     beyond, applying appropriate means and methods suitable" --

 5             [In English] Please, I ask interpreters to interpret:

 6             "Suitable for these specialised services and duties and powers

 7     prescribed by the constitution and the law -- the power prescribed by the

 8     constitution and the law, and special powers they receive from the

 9     relevant organs in emergency situations.

10             "Relying on the overall system of social self-protection, in

11     emergency situations, these organs will remove any existing incidents and

12     prevent others which may represent a threat to security."

13             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.  I won't read

14     anymore.  I just want to display it.

15             In paragraph 1, it says:

16             "The basic tasks of these organs and services of internal

17     affairs" --

18             JUDGE KWON:  Before -- what is this about?

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, the Prosecution

20     made an objection to the effect that --

21             JUDGE KWON:  No, no, no, I'm talking about this document.  We saw

22     some provisions and -- and this seems to be a speech.

23             What is this document about?  That was my question.

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, we saw the first page.  It

25     was written by the Presidency of Yugoslavia in 1987.  This is a legal

Page 46586

 1     obligation, stipulating how various services must act.  We have seen

 2     before certain guide-lines in a shorter form, but this is the strategy of

 3     defence for the entire country and this is a list of the tasks for the

 4     Ministry of the Interior --

 5             JUDGE KWON:  No, no.  Probably Mr. Robinson could assist us.

 6     Page 1, page 2, 3, is -- is signed document about strategy of

 7     All People's Defence.  And from page 4 on, it seems like a transcript or

 8     something.

 9             MR. ROBINSON:  This is the way we received it, Mr. President, so

10     we believed it was an integral document.

11             JUDGE KWON:  In English.

12             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes.

13             JUDGE KWON:  And no B/C/S.

14             MR. ROBINSON:  We may have received the B/C/S at a different time

15     but we received the English in this form.

16             JUDGE KWON:  So you have no idea what this document is about.

17             MR. ROBINSON:  As far as we can tell, this is a document setting

18     forth the strategy for the All People's Defence by the authorities of the

19     former Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If I may add, Your Excellencies.

21     These are partial translations.  The original has 400 pages.  These are

22     translations only of passages from the document.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Translation of what, Mr. Karadzic?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we show the first page,

25     please.  It's a book.  It's a document, a legal enactment.

Page 46587

 1             Could we see the first page in Serbian as well.  [In English]

 2     Right half.

 3             [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, in Serbian, the specification

 4     of the publisher is more complete.  The issuing authority is the

 5     Federal Secretariat for National Defence, and it was endorsed by the

 6     Presidency of Yugoslavia as the Supreme Commander.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Witness, could you assist us as to what this

 8     document is about?  What we are seeing before us?

 9             Can you show page 4 and 5 in B/C/S to the witness.

10             Yes, having seen this document, can you answer the question?

11             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I can tell you my understanding.

12             I understand this as a well-developed Law on National Defence, in

13     case the country has to be defended.  This provides much more -- much

14     broader comments, how every participant in the defence should act,

15     including businesses, companies, not only the army, et cetera.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Do you remember having seen this book, or read this

17     book?

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Of course, I remember the book.  In

19     the spirit of my work, as far as the ministry is concerned, I read the

20     other parts, but I didn't memorise them, as I did the part that concerns

21     the Ministry of the Interior.

22             But basically it's described more briefly in the Law

23     on the Interior and the Law on National Defence.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.  Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we then move on to page 15, 16.

Page 46588

 1     We've seen this already.  [In English] Next page in English, please.

 2        Q.   [Interpretation] We've read this, Minister.  It begins with the

 3     tasks of the Ministry of the Interior and I'll deal with one more passage

 4     here.  The second paragraph:

 5             [In English] "The organs and services of internal affairs shall

 6     take all measures and actions from their field of work in closest

 7     co-operation with other subjects of social self-protection.  They shall

 8     establish a direct and constant operative and working connections with

 9     the committees for All People's Defence and social self-protection," and

10     so on and so on.

11             [Interpretation] Let's just see third paragraph:

12             [In English] "In an emergency, by prompt, energetic, and

13     efficient actions and activity, committees of All People's Defence and

14     social self-protection must provide and be responsible for the following:

15     Directing and co-ordinating measures and activities in the implementation

16     of common goals and tasks of All People's Defence and social

17     self-protection; operative and political monitoring and assessment of the

18     situation stimulating the activities of organs of self-management

19     organisations and communities, social, political, and other social

20     organisations and socio-political communities, in the struggle against

21     the causes of the emergency and to eliminate them; prompt and efficient

22     action of the joint system of defence protection."

23             [Interpretation] Could we see the next page.

24             JUDGE KWON:  If you continue, we can collapse the B/C/S because

25     we don't have B/C/S page.  Zoom in, in English.

Page 46589

 1             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Here it begins about the

 2     Territorial Defence.  But the first paragraph is still under the heading

 3     MUP.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   So, did the law assign certain tasks to the Ministry of

 6     the Interior and did you act in accordance with this?  Or did you offend

 7     these provisions by establishing war units?

 8        A.   I must confess, I did not locate this passage which relates to

 9     defence preparations in the Ministry of Interior.  But it says here that

10     on the ground, in the event of a war, how to create Crisis Staffs.  They

11     can be called differently, but that would be an organ in that territory

12     capable of functioning independently until communication is established

13     with the state authorities at the top.  That's how I understood it.  But,

14     as far as I understand, that's the way it's also written.  And all these

15     agencies are duty-bound to make these preparations during peacetime, to

16     have them ready in the event of war.  And there were even inspectors and

17     inspections checking whether these preparations have indeed been made,

18     and all those who did not have these plans in place were fined very

19     seriously.

20             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Next page, please.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   On page 73 of yesterday's transcript, it was held against you

23     that you had assigned a task to control the movements of sabotage

24     terrorist groups.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Page 16.  [In English] Not next.

Page 46590

 1     Previous.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure it was an issue of translation, but

 3     Mr. Olmsted never held against Mr. Stanisic about that.  I just want it

 4     noted.

 5             Please continue.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Before the break, I'll read just a

 7     short passage.  Line 3 says --

 8             JUDGE KWON:  If you put -- please -- please proceed.  We'll take

 9     a break after this question.

10             MR. KARADZIC:

11        Q.   "The basic task of the organs and services of internal affairs

12     are as follows:  By applying preventive measures and actions to provide

13     protection for important social and governmental [sic] institutions,

14     buildings, and other property from sabotage and terrorist attacks and

15     other criminal acts [sic] at the centre of an emergency and in the

16     general area ..."

17             [Interpretation] So this protection against sabotage terrorist

18     action, under whom was it?

19        A.   Within the regular job of the Ministry of the Interior, falls

20     combat against terrorist group, terrorist actions, if they are targeting

21     civilian buildings and civilian population.  If they target military

22     installations or troops or anything that falls under the army, that would

23     be the task of the military security and other organs within the army.

24     And I said, in one of my orders, as far as terrorist groups are

25     concerned, that the ministry within its jurisdiction can deal with, we

Page 46591

 1     will use our units and deal with them.  But that's strictly the civilian

 2     aspect of that work.

 3             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered the first three pages to

 4     be MFI'd.  And out of this text, I tendered the second page, where the

 5     list is complete.  The third page.  And pages 15, 16, 17.  Those that

 6     have been shown to the witness.

 7             JUDGE KWON:  Shall we mark those pages for identification?

 8             Do you have any objection, Mr. Olmsted?

 9                           [Prosecution counsel confer]

10             MR. OLMSTED:  We don't necessarily object to this being admitted

11     into evidence but with confirmation that those were in fact the pages

12     shown to the witness.  I'm not quite sure about that.

13             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  So we'll mark those pages pending the

14     translation.  And later on you may raise the issue if you have some

15     issues with respect to authenticity or whatever.

16             So we'll mark those pages for identification.  We'll assign a

17     number for that.

18             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4282, Your Honours.

19             JUDGE KWON:  We'll take a break for 45 minutes, Mr. Karadzic.

20             We'll resume at 22 past 1.00.

21                           --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.38 p.m.

22                           --- On resuming at 1.28 p.m.

23             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

24             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, just one small evidentiary matter.

25             In the last session, D4280 was admitted into evidence and I would

Page 46592

 1     just like to note for Your Honours that it is, at least in content, the

 2     same document as D469 which I referred to during cross-examination.

 3             I think one is in the form of a dispatch and another one is

 4     signed by the witness, but I just wanted to note that for -- for you.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.  I'll ask the Registry to make a

 6     cross-reference to each other.

 7             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   Mr. Minister, you were asked about the division of MUP in two

11     different MUPs and also about that telegram which supposedly resulted in

12     the division.  And you spoke about the results of the conference.

13     However, the results of the conference was just the legal background.

14             What were the reasons for us to approach Cutileiro and the

15     European community with that request?  What were the requests to have

16     another MUP?  What were the reasons for that request?

17        A.   I don't know what you expect from me.  As for the political part,

18     I don't know what the reason was because I didn't participate in the

19     negotiations so I don't know.  But I know when Yugoslavia disintegrated

20     the legal system in Bosnia-Herzegovina and all the other republics of the

21     former Yugoslavia in -- disintegrated as well, so it was in the interests

22     of every ethnic group in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina to find

23     a solution that would lead to a normal life in a state but within the

24     framework of ethnic entities.  That would be just my reasoning.

25        Q.   Thank you.  How did federal units in Yugoslavia deal with that

Page 46593

 1     situation?  Did they have their on police forces and what about other

 2     European states with multi-ethnic composition?  Who has the right to have

 3     a police force?

 4        A.   Every republic had its own police force and within the framework

 5     of the former Yugoslavia, and there was an umbrella organisation which

 6     was the police force of the federal state of Yugoslavia.

 7        Q.   On the eve of the conference when we still had a joint police

 8     force were there any problems?  How did that MUP function as a whole?

 9     Not just the police force but the MUP as a whole?

10             Were there any problems at all?

11        A.   Sometime in late 1999 -- or in the course of 1991, the security

12     situation in the territory of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina gradually

13     deteriorated.  All the laws that were applicable in Bosnia-Herzegovina

14     were actually tied to federal regulations.  As Yugoslavia disintegrated,

15     the systems in the republics disintegrated as well.  And as a result of

16     that, the security situation worsened in the entire territory and we had

17     to find a solution to overcome the crisis that was imminent and that was

18     already in place.

19        Q.   After the inter-party agreement, did the MUP continue to function

20     harmoniously and did the parties comply with the agreements reached

21     between them?

22        A.   The parties tried to appoint people to various positions

23     according to the agreement but there -- a lot of problems in the

24     Ministry of the Interior.  The situation prevalent in the territory of

25     the entire republic reflected on the ministry because the

Page 46594

 1     Ministry of the Interior started to lose its basic function as a

 2     ministry, and it started to deal -- and it -- and it actually ceased

 3     dealing with tasks within its remit, and that made the situation more and

 4     more complex by the day.

 5        Q.   You were shown a document in which you said that it was not the

 6     Serbs that the -- were in the process of dividing the MUP but the

 7     Muslims.  What did you have in mind?  What developments did you have in

 8     mind when you said that?

 9        A.   The Serbian cadre in the Ministry of the Interior of the former

10     Bosnia and Herzegovina mostly insisted on the implementations of laws and

11     regulations which were in effect at the time in Bosnia-Herzegovina.  The

12     Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was still in place at that time, so there

13     were grounds on insisting on the application of all the rules and

14     regulations in that area.  But it was already clear that the Muslim side

15     did not want to comply with the federal regulations and that its option

16     was to secede from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.  And that

17     undermined the legal system in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18             We kept on insisting on certain things.  We wanted to comply with

19     all the positive rules and regulations while we were still functioning.

20     That was the only guarantee for the situation to be under control in

21     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  If legalities -- not respected in the MUP, what

22     could other citizens do, especially people prone to illegal doings?

23             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'd like to call up 65 ter 8170.

24             This document, which is in e-court is what it is, we need page 3.

25             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

Page 46595

 1        Q.   On the 20 April you warn everybody of the need to dispatch daily

 2     bulletin.  Yes, page 3.

 3             This was issued on 9 September 19919 September 1991.  This is

 4     a -- a press release.  Could you please tell us what was publicised here.

 5     What was the general public informed about?

 6             [In English] Public announcement.  This is -- this part belongs

 7     with public announcement.

 8             [Interpretation] Would you please look at the document and tell

 9     us what did you, the Serbian cadre, tell the general public in

10     September 1991?  What did you inform the general public about?

11        A.   I can only tell you that the text is a true reflection of what we

12     have discussed over the past three days as a problem pertaining to that

13     field of work.

14             People who were admitted were prone to the commission of crimes,

15     people with criminal records; i.e., these official IDs were issued to

16     people who had nothing whatsoever to do with the Ministry of the

17     Interior, who were not employed by the MUP.  Already in May -- or,

18     rather, after July 1991, the Green Berets were established as a reserve

19     strength of the special unit of MUP of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina and

20     the commander of that unit was Juka Prazina, and that person had spent at

21     least 15 years in prison, up to then.  Obviously we reacted because we

22     feared for our own lives, because if that person could be in command of a

23     unit with a same or similar structure while, at the same time, MUP

24     members actually apprehended him all the time, all we could except was

25     retaliation.  Unfortunately, that was the composition of the special

Page 46596

 1     brigade of the MUP of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

 2        Q.   What was the ethnic affiliations of the members of that

 3     formation?

 4        A.   They were Muslims.  Most of them were Muslims and there was also

 5     an occasionally Croat.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Look at the fax that was sent on the

 7     9th September, 1991.  The document in e-court was not prepared by us,

 8     but, still, do you remember when this was announced?  I believe that --

 9     we're still talking about the joint MUP; right?

10        A.   Yes.

11             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not following what document we are talking

12     about.  Fax of when?

13             THE ACCUSED:  In Serbian, Excellency, this page is dedicated only

14     to this document.

15             In English, it is -- of -- of public announcement.  It is a

16     separate document.  And above the public announcement should be what is

17     fax -- facsimile, 9 September 1991.

18             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED:  Released through the Ministry of Information of BH.

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.

21             JUDGE KWON:  It's dated 1st -- 7th of September, 1991.

22             THE ACCUSED:  9th of September, I suppose.  So we -- we tender

23     only this page because two other documents does not belong organically to

24     this.

25             JUDGE KWON:  Where can we see 9th of September?

Page 46597

 1             THE ACCUSED:  Could page be shifted little bit left -- right.

 2     Yeah.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  The date of fax, yes.

 4             So it is not attached to the previous document?

 5             THE ACCUSED:  It's not the same.  It's difference several months.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we will admit this page.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4283, Your Honours.

 8             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

 9             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

10        Q.   This is a reaction heard at the collegium of the Serbian people

11     in September.  Were there any discords even before that?  How did you

12     deal with those misunderstandings and discords?  I'm talking about the

13     functioning of the MUP and the behaviour of the other side.

14        A.   At the time, I was the secretary of the MUP Sarajevo.  I tried,

15     together with my associates, to have the secretariat function in

16     compliance with the law.  And, to a certain extent, I was successful in

17     that.  But I know that outside of Sarajevo, and at the top of the

18     Ministry of the Interior of Bosnia-Herzegovina, there were huge problems.

19     It would take me a lot of time to talk about details, and I don't know

20     whether my answers would be -- be really precise.

21             In any case, there were problems, and this letter is a product of

22     all of that.

23        Q.   Thank you.  Did the Muslim MUP send the Muslim members for

24     training somewhere unbeknownst to Serbs and against the regulation?

25        A.   The Ministry of the Interior of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina had

Page 46598

 1     its training centre in Vrace, in Sarajevo.  Irrespective of the fact that

 2     that centre existed, it was not the ministry but the SDA that sent people

 3     to Croatia for training.  Their number was significant.  There must have

 4     between 6.000 and 10.000 people.  I don't know how many, but their number

 5     was great.  At the end of the day, there are documents to corroborate

 6     that.  When they returned from Croatia, they created huge problems.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness be shown 1D5690.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   This is an intercept of a conversation involving myself and

10     vice-president Koljevic and the conversation took place on the 20th

11     of June.  I'm interested in page 1 in English, towards the bottom of the

12     page where it says:

13             "I can't get in touch with Zepinic to see if he knows.  The MUP

14     sent 2.000 Muslims to the Pionirski town in Zagreb."

15             That was before 20th June, and there were more of them after the

16     20th, as far as you know?

17        A.   I know one part of the situation, but -- and I want to share with

18     you that part of the information.  In the Ministry of Interior --

19             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

20             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

21             MR. OLMSTED:  Not only is this leading, but it appears to me to

22     be going beyond the scope of my cross-examination.  I certainly didn't go

23     into all of these issues regarding 1991 and the formation of any Muslim

24     or non-Serb units.

25             JUDGE KWON:  You didn't rise when -- during the previous question

Page 46599

 1     and answer, just -- and therefore, I let it go.

 2             Why don't you -- why don't we allow him to continue.

 3             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It appeared to be leading, but the

 5     minister had just said that he was aware of several thousand of people

 6     who were sent.  Here I say that there were 2.000 before the 20th of June.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   Can you please continue?

 9        A.   I want to be very fair, and I want to say this:

10             The MUP of the former Bosnia and Herzegovina was where the former

11     SDA appointed an assistant minister.  He was a Muslim priest who had

12     arrived from Zagreb.  And it wasn't the MUP but he personally, and I

13     don't know how he introduced himself there, he personally took care of

14     that but it was the Party of Democratic Action that sent those people and

15     their number was much greater than it says here.  It may have been so --

16     that many up to that period.

17        Q.   Thank you.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we go to the following page in

19     English.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   Here, I am asking Mr. Koljevic about the arms that had arrived in

22     Prijedor.  Did -- were you aware of that, that there was an arming drive

23     in June 1991?

24        A.   I had some general information about people being armed.  I

25     mentioned that yesterday.  I didn't have any specific information about

Page 46600

 1     Prijedor.  I was more interested in SUP of the city of Sarajevo.

 2             So except for some general information, I can't share with you

 3     anything specific.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this intercept be admitted and

 5     marked for identification, like the other intercepts before this?

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  We'll marked for identification.

 7             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4284, Your Honours.

 8             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 9        Q.   You mentioned that not -- that Serbs were not appointed to each

10     and every position that they got, especially in state security.  Did I

11     ask for agreements to be abided by?

12        A.   I can tell you by way of my general knowledge.  But I know that

13     you --

14             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

15             Yes.

16             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, leading, Your Honours.  And top of that,

17     again, this isn't anything I went into on cross-examination.  This was a

18     topic of direct examination.

19             JUDGE KWON:  I agree with you.  I tend to agree with you.

20             Mr. Karadzic.

21             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I answer?

22             The reasons were the divisions.  The Prosecution implied that it

23     was our fault that the MUP was divided.  So now we are presenting the

24     reasons why we asked the European Union for our entity to have its own

25     police.

Page 46601

 1             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure I ...

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  I'm not --

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 4             MR. OLMSTED:  Yes, Your Honour, I'm not sure that that was what I

 5     was getting into on cross-examination.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Well, Mr. President, the cross-examination was to

 7     the effect that the Serbs had divided the MUP as part of their plan to

 8     take control of Serb areas and force Muslims and Croats to be expelled.

 9     Now Dr. Karadzic is trying to show the reasons why the MUP were divided,

10     and I think it's within the cross-examination and he should be allowed to

11     do that.

12             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Robinson.

13             Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.  Could the witness

15     please be shown 65 ter 17561.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   Could you please focus on this document.  I'm writing a letter to

18     the Presidency of the Bosnia and to the president for -- president of the

19     council for the protection of the constitutional order.  I am saying that

20     agreements had not been carried out and also that there was no proportion

21     of representation of peoples in state organs.

22             Is that what you said?  How does this fit into your own knowledge

23     about the functioning?

24        A.   A moment ago, I said that by way of general knowledge, I was

25     aware of all of these problems.  I know that through Momcilo Mandic and

Page 46602

 1     Vitomir Zepinic, you tried to obtain information and that you insisted

 2     that, in accordance with the agreement, personnel be appointed.

 3        Q.   Thank you.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 6             THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit D4285, Your Honours.

 7             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 8        Q.   In relation to the same topic but also in terms of your relations

 9     with me, yesterday the Prosecutor suggested that I addressed you by your

10     first name, meaning that we were on "tu" terms.  Were we on "tu" or

11     "vous" terms?

12        A.   Never the informal "tu."  It was always official, our

13     communication.  And you and I never had a cup of coffee together on our

14     own.

15        Q.   Thank you.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please take a look at

17     65 ter 31863.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   The fourth line from the bottom, is it correct that I'm asking,

20     Is this the Stanisic apartment?  So does that mean that I called you?

21        A.   Yes.

22        Q.   Thank you.

23             Next page, please.  The English was ... oh.

24             Please, we are talking, and I'm going to read out the first

25     longer part -- well, look, we're angry with the MUP and I'm cussing and

Page 46603

 1     I'm saying, I don't know if you know that they are mistreating our

 2     people.  I don't know whether it's your people from the city MUP.  But it

 3     is amazing --

 4             It would be the next page in English.

 5             But it's amazing what they're doing, how much effort they're

 6     making to follow our people and to suspect them of all sorts of things.

 7             And then further down, it says: "Please tell Mandic" --

 8             [In English] Next page in English, please.

 9             [Interpretation] Oh, it's here, Mandic.  I'm asking you to tell

10     Mandic that we have enough evidence to turn that MUP upside down and to

11     hand them over to the army and the federal MUP so that they could arrest

12     them.

13             So what is all this about?  Why would we report them to the army

14     and the federal MUP?

15        A.   Mr. Karadzic, you've put two questions to me.

16             First, address.  I'm looking at this transcript now.  When you

17     reached me on the phone, you said, Comrade secretary.  Radovan Karadzic,

18     How are you?  And I say, Fine.  And how are you?  This is the -- 1, 2, 3,

19     4.  It is paragraph 5, 6, and 7 from the topic of this page which is on

20     my screen now.

21        Q.   I understand, Minister.  But, in English it's just you regardless

22     of whether it is "vous" or "tu" and that's why I say this led the

23     Prosecutor to --

24        A.   Oh, no, no, no.  In Serbian or the Serbo-Croat language, "vous"

25     and "tu," there is a great difference in terms of these forms of address.

Page 46604

 1     T is one person.  V is just an address of courtesy.  Otherwise it's the

 2     plural.  So then when you are addressing a person, with whom you do not

 3     have any kind of informal relationship, then --

 4        Q.   French-speaking people understand what you are saying, and I

 5     believe that others have understood by now.

 6             Why am I saying that they -- that they should be reported, that

 7     we would report them to the federal MUP and to the army?

 8        A.   Well, precisely, as far as I can see on the basis of this

 9     content, because of the problems that we spoke of a moment ago.

10        Q.   Thank you.  Now you said there that there was that wide-spread

11     anti-army feeling, federal regulations.

12        A.   Yes, yes.  The army was a symbol of the unity of the former

13     Yugoslavia; that is to say, it was the only state organ of the federal

14     state that was a single one without being subdivided in the republics.

15     Everything was done to break that last organ up as well so that this

16     principle of separation could be exercised, the one that they were

17     aspiring for.

18             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] In English, page 4, please, and the

19     next one in Serbian.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   In the second line here, you're saying that we should wait a bit,

22     that you should check this.  And I say, All right.  Just because of you,

23     we will be waiting.  And we have enough information for

24     Alija Delimustafic, Hilmo Selimovic and Avdo Hebib, enough to give them

25     hell.

Page 46605

 1        A.   So what is the question?  Could you just tell me that.

 2        Q.   The question is why you were being so cautious.  Why did you want

 3     to check?

 4        A.   You spoke about problems in the territory of the city of Sarajevo

 5     where I was secretary of the secretariat and, of course, I would say that

 6     everything had to be checked so that a final conclusion could be reached

 7     in this regard.

 8        Q.   Thank you.  What about these three that I mentioned, who are

 9     they?  The ones that I mentioned that we have --

10        A.   Could you just tell me where it is.

11        Q.   Alija Delimustafic, Hilmo Selimovic, Avdo Hebib.

12        A.   Well, yes, there was information then that Avdo Hebib, in

13     particular, was arming the Muslim people through the reserve force

14     throughout the former Bosnia-Herzegovina.  And there were a lot of

15     Official Notes that were coming in from the field in this respect and

16     they were providing information.

17        Q.   Thank you.  Could I draw your attention to this central part:

18     Because I think, et cetera.  The Prosecutor suggested that you were being

19     controlled by the SDS and Karadzic and look at this sentence:  We do not

20     know exactly what the situation is in the city SUP because we have not

21     quite focussed on that but we do have all the information, et cetera.

22             What can you say about that?

23        A.   Of course, I, as secretary of the city SUP, protected the

24     interest of --

25             JUDGE KWON:  Just a second.

Page 46606

 1             Yes, Mr. Olmsted.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  It's leading, Your Honours.  It's within the scope

 3     of my cross-examination, but it's -- it's certainly leading.  And because

 4     it is dealing with a different topic.

 5             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

 6             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, again, I don't see anything wrong

 7     with putting a document or a portion of a document and asking, What can

 8     you say about that?  I cannot think of anything less leading than that.

 9             MR. OLMSTED:  Except for, Your Honour, that Mr. Karadzic prefaced

10     it with what I was dealing with during cross-examination and then

11     obviously trying to tie it to something said during this conversation.

12     And that, in itself, is extremely leading.

13                           [Trial Chamber confers]

14             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, this time we agree with Mr. Olmsted.

15             Move on or reformulate your question.

16             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I didn't even have to

17     put this question because Mr. Stanisic denied during the

18     cross-examination that he was under anybody's control.  But let's move

19     on.  Let's move on to the next page.

20             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

21        Q.   During this conversation, you tried to calm me down and to delay

22     matters.  Look at this, Fine, fine, fine.

23             Just take a look at this.  What is it that I'm asking you?  It's

24     page 6 in English.

25        A.   Well, I can only conclude that, over here -- how I do put this? -

Page 46607

 1     you lowered your expectations.  You asked for less.  Just to inform

 2     people at the MUP that this has gone way too far.

 3        Q.   Thank you.  Are you trying to say that I yielded to you?

 4        A.   No.  But at the beginning of this conversation --

 5        Q.   All right.  Never mind.  I'm not ashamed of this.  I am willing

 6     to accept arguments, reasoning.

 7             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted?

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll receive it.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4286, Your Honours.

10             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

11        Q.   The previous page, lines 18 and 19, you mentioned Avdo Hebib.

12     What was his formal position in the MUP?

13        A.   Well, Avdo Hebib, but a lot before me, was an advisor, special

14     advisor to the minister of Bosnia-Herzegovina for public security

15     affairs.

16        Q.   Thank you.  I mentioned him as one of the three persons that we

17     were objecting to.

18        A.   Yes.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be

20     shown 31914.  Thank you.

21             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

22        Q.   Minister, this is the 17th of September, so it's a week after

23     that public release.  Then I'm speaking to Mr. Hebib.

24             So could I have the next page both in Serbian and in English.

25             Mr. Hebib says, and that's the penultimate part, and he says that

Page 46608

 1     he doesn't want to have anything to do with national parties.  And then I

 2     said that everybody came to power through the political parties.  And I

 3     am saying that there is a proportionate government:  43 for the Muslims,

 4     35.6 for the Serbs, and so on.

 5             You see?  Tonight I have got a definite conversation with

 6     Mr. Izetbegovic and I'm going to ask that several people be thrown out of

 7     the MUP because they are leading Bosnia and Herzegovina - can we have the

 8     next page in Serbian - into a civil war because what we had agreed upon

 9     is not being respected.  Mr. Hebib, there cannot be any lateral

10     appointments in the MUP anymore, neither can the Serbs appoint staff to

11     the Muslims nor the Muslims to the Serbs and there can especially be no

12     such one-sided changes.  If we've agreed about everything from start to

13     finish, then we also have to agree about how much, what structure, and

14     who is going where.  And it's the ruling party that has to say that.

15             Now, how does this fit into what you knew about the position of

16     the SDS in respect of having these problems resolved?

17             MR. OLMSTED:  Your Honour, again, leading for the reasons I have

18     raised before.

19             JUDGE KWON:  Mr. Robinson.

20             MR. ROBINSON:  Mr. President, I'm not sure I really even know

21     what is a leading question anymore.  But Dr. Karadzic already raised the

22     topic with Minister Stanisic.  He has asked him several questions about

23     the reason for the splitting of the MUP and the conflict and now he is

24     putting to him a specific example and asked him what he thinks about it

25     or to comment on it.

Page 46609

 1             I simply don't see how that could possibly be leading.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  Would you like that add anything, Mr. Olmsted?

 3             MR. OLMSTED:  Well, Your Honours, I understand the Defence's

 4     point.  But presenting information this way, by reading a long passage

 5     and then asking the witness to comment on it is, you know, not only not

 6     helpful but I believe is leading.  It's directing him to provide a

 7     specific type of answer, to confirm Mr. Karadzic's point of view.

 8                           [Trial Chamber confers]

 9             JUDGE KWON:  The Chamber is not of the view that it was -- it was

10     leading.  We agree with Mr. Robinson's observation.

11             Please continue, Mr. Karadzic.

12             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

13        Q.   Can you answer, Mr. Minister.

14        A.   I understood this to be your position, that agreements should be

15     strictly adhered to, meaning the agreements on distributing senior

16     positions in the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

17        Q.   From what you know, did the Serb side honour these agreements or

18     did it impose its own staff on Muslims?

19        A.   It would be unfair to say that.  The broad -- the -- the area of

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina is very wide, but, for instance, in the SUP of the

21     city of Sarajevo where I worked, the Serb side honoured everything.  I

22     know, however, there were some problems from the second side and even the

23     third side, but the HDZ was responsible for a smaller amount of these

24     problems than the SDA.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we have page 5 in Serbian and 6

Page 46610

 1     in English.  Next page in English, and next page in Serbian.  The English

 2     page should be 5 but I can't see it.

 3             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 4        Q.   Look at this paragraph where I say, We did not impose a single

 5     Muslim.  And I say, Muslim cadres should be appointed by the Muslim party

 6     that represents the people.

 7             Tell me, did we impose anyone on them?  How is it consistent with

 8     your experience, as far as our conduct is concerned?

 9        A.   I can just tell you the general position was to adhere strictly

10     to the agreement on dividing up senior executive positions.  And I cannot

11     speak specifically about this, but I see what's written, and this

12     confirms that position.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] There's a lot more, but we tender

15     the entire document.  I won't spend more time on it.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Yes, we'll mark it for identification.

17             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4287, Your Honours.

18                           [Defence counsel confer]

19             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

20        Q.   You mentioned that I dealt with these things not with you but

21     Mr. Zepinic.

22             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So could we show 65 ter 32006.

23             JUDGE KWON:  What are these?

24             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That's my conversation with

25     Mr. Zepinic in November 1991.  He was number one on the Serbian side in

Page 46611

 1     the police, in the MUP.

 2             JUDGE KWON:  I -- I meant to ask you to put your question first

 3     before putting the document.

 4             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   It's certainly not on the first page, Mr. Minister.

 7             How did I resolve these misunderstandings with Mr. Zepinic, and

 8     did Zepinic do his duty?

 9        A.   I know that you were in contact with him, but I also know - and

10     we've seen from earlier texts - that Zepinic did not make enough of an

11     effort for appointments to be made within the framework of the agreement,

12     and I know you had words with him about that.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see page 3 in Serbian and

15     page 2 in English.  In English, it's the last paragraph at the bottom.

16             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

17        Q.   He tells me that we stand better in the city.  That's where you

18     were the chief; right?

19        A.   Yes.

20        Q.   And I say here:

21             "Hell, you'll see when all these things come to the surface what

22     the MUP is doing."  Distributed Muslim -- weapons to the Muslims --

23             THE INTERPRETER:  Interpreters need a reference.

24             JUDGE KWON:  The last paragraph in English.

25             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.  And it's

Page 46612

 1     probably straddling the next page, too.

 2             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Excuse me, what is the date of this

 3     intercept?

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   20th November, 1991.

 6        A.   This is approximately what the situation was like.  As I've said

 7     several times here, reserve members of the army were not allowed to join

 8     the Yugoslav People's Army, instead they were called up as reservists

 9     into the police, and lots of things happened.  I was still in the SUP of

10     the city, but they could not control that segment anymore.  The minister

11     was in charge, and there was a special advisor to the minister for the

12     police.

13        Q.   Thank you.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this document be admitted?

15             JUDGE KWON:  We'll mark it for identification.

16             THE REGISTRAR:  As MFI D4288, Your Honours.

17             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

18             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

19        Q.   Minister, did the MUP provide political parties with information

20     about illegal activities in the MUP?

21        A.   What do you mean?  From where I was sitting, I didn't provide any

22     information to any political parties.  I don't know if anybody did that

23     from other offices.  I don't know.  You have to be more specific.

24        Q.   Did the MUP inform the president of the assembly, the president

25     of the Presidency, et cetera?

Page 46613

 1        A.   Oh, you mean state authorities?  Of course.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now show 1D00042.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Before uploading the document, could you ask

 4     the witness some more specific questions.

 5             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 6        Q.   The question was:  Whether we had the opportunity to find out

 7     about illegal doings, wrong-doings in the MUP.

 8        A.   You see, the State Security Service which was mostly involved in

 9     collecting intelligence was controlled by the SDA and the HDZ.  We saw

10     that when this post of deputy chief that belonged to Serbs was abolished.

11             And, as far as the Serb side is concerned, even if some reports

12     reached them, it was very terse.  They probably informed their own people

13     in a much more satisfactory manner.

14             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered this document.  English

15     page 5, Serbian page 6.

16             First of all, this is the secretary of President Milosevic

17     followed by Mr. Milosevic himself.  And the next page in Serbian.

18             JUDGE KWON:  I'm not sure we have looked -- looked at this

19     document at all.

20                           [Defence counsel confer]

21             MR. ROBINSON:  He's referring to the document that had been left

22     on the screen that has already having been tendered.  He hasn't gotten to

23     the point to tender this one yet.  He just asked his general question

24     about this topic and now he's going to show the pertinent section of the

25     intercept.

Page 46614

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Oh.  Yes, I understood.  Page 5.

 2             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we see the Serbian page two

 3     pages further.

 4             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

 5        Q.   I'm talking to President Milosevic here and I tell him we

 6     received some material, showing that their people were doing illegal

 7     things, distributing weapon, calling up reservists, creating an army.

 8     I'm just informing him for the sake of Kadijevic who should know what is

 9     afoot in Bosnia.  Were they indeed creating their own army and did the

10     Muslim part of the MUP participate in the creation of that army?

11        A.   The Ministry of the Interior then had in its hands certain

12     information.  I believe in July 1991 in the hall of the police, in the

13     area of the city SUP where I worked, a meeting of the Main Board of the

14     SDA was held and, among other things, they decided - and I forgot to say

15     the meeting was attended by the president of Bosnia and Herzegovina and

16     the president of the SDA - they decided to establish a military wing of

17     the SDA and the head of that staff was supposed to be Mr. Izetbegovic.

18     For us, it was terrible news that the head of state should head the staff

19     of some paramilitary organisation that was being established in

20     Bosnia-Herzegovina.  That really caused a lot of fear and confusion.  We

21     didn't know what to do next.

22             How could then, for instance, the ministry receive an order from

23     that head of state, knowing what we already knew at that time about

24     Mr. Izetbegovic?  And, in that context, I suppose, you are having this

25     conversation.

Page 46615

 1        Q.   To make things clear, which Kadijevic do you mean?

 2        A.   Veljko Kadijevic was, at that time, called minister of

 3     national defence.  Or was it called secretary at the time?  Secretary of

 4     national defence of the federal Yugoslavia.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I tendered this document, to be

 7     MFI'd.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.

 9             THE REGISTRAR:  MFI, D4289, Your Honours.

10                           [Defence counsel confer]

11             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellency.  I

12     won't spend any more time, although have I many more documents.  I'll

13     tender them from the bar table.

14             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

15        Q.   Thank you, Mr. Stanisic.

16             JUDGE KWON:  Very well.

17             Unless my colleagues have a question for you, that concludes your

18     evidence, Mr. Stanisic.  On behalf of the Chamber, I would like to thank

19     you for your testimony.  Also, I'd like to thank Mr. Zecevic --

20             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21             JUDGE KWON:  -- for his co-operation and assistance.

22             You may be excused.

23             MR. ZECEVIC:  Thank you, Your Honours.  Thank you very much.

24                           [The witness withdrew]

25                           [Trial Chamber confers]

Page 46616

 1             JUDGE KWON:  Our thanks also go to you, Mr. Olmsted.

 2             MR. OLMSTED:  Thank you, Your Honours.  I appreciate it.

 3             JUDGE KWON:  I take it the next witness is ready.

 4             MR. ROBINSON:  Yes, Mr. President.  The next witness is

 5     Mr. Orlovic, and he'll -- he's ready to start.

 6             JUDGE KWON:  Yes.  Before we hear his evidence, shall we go into

 7     private session briefly in order to deal with a couple of matters.

 8                           [Private session]

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12   (redacted)

13   (redacted)

14   (redacted)

15   (redacted)

16   (redacted)

17   (redacted)

18   (redacted)

19   (redacted)

20   (redacted)

21   (redacted)

22   (redacted)

23   (redacted)

24   (redacted)

25   (redacted)

Page 46617











11  Page 46617 redacted.  Private session.















Page 46618

 1   (redacted)

 2   (redacted)

 3   (redacted)

 4   (redacted)

 5   (redacted)

 6   (redacted)

 7   (redacted)

 8   (redacted)

 9   (redacted)

10   (redacted)

11   (redacted)

12                           [Open session]

13             THE REGISTRAR:  We're back in open session, Your Honours.

14                           [The witness entered court]

15             JUDGE KWON:  Would the witness make the solemn declaration.

16             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly declare that I will

17     speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

18                           WITNESS:  MIHAJLO ORLOVIC

19                           [Witness answered through interpreter]

20             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you, Mr. Orlovic.  Please be seated and make

21     yourself comfortable.

22             Yes, Mr. Karadzic, please proceed.

23                           Examination by Mr. Karadzic:

24        Q.   [Interpretation] Good afternoon, Mr. Orlovic.

25        A.   Good afternoon.  How are you?

Page 46619

 1        Q.   Thank you for asking.  I'm fine.

 2             I would kindly ask you to pause between my questions and your

 3     answers and speak slowly so that all of your sentences may be properly

 4     recorded in the transcript.

 5        A.   I understand.

 6        Q.   Thank you.  Mr. Orlovic, did you give a statement to my Defence

 7     team?

 8        A.   Yes, I did.

 9             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

10     1D9666.

11             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

12        Q.   Do you see the first page of your statement in Serbian and in

13     English before you?

14        A.   Yes, I do.

15        Q.   Thank you.  You're starting your answers too quickly, so please

16     make a pause.

17             Did you read the statement and did you sign it?

18        A.   Yes, I did.

19             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown

20     the last page so that he may be able to identify his signature.

21             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, this is my signature.

22             MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]

23        Q.   Thank you.  Does this statement accurately reflect what you

24     stated?  Is there anything that you need to correct?

25        A.   Nothing needs to be corrected.

Page 46620

 1        Q.   Thank you.  If I were to put the same questions today to you in

 2     the courtroom as the ones you were asked when your statement was taken,

 3     would your answers, in essence, be the same as in your statement?

 4        A.   Yes, for the most part.

 5        Q.   Thank you.

 6             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I'm tendering this statement

 7     pursuant to Rule 92 ter, Your Excellencies.

 8             JUDGE KWON:  Do you have any objections, Mr. Zec?

 9             MR. ZEC:  No objection, Mr. President.  Only to note that the

10     statement contains a number of leading questions which should go to the

11     weight of the evidence in the statement.

12             JUDGE KWON:  We'll receive it.

13             THE REGISTRAR:  As Exhibit D4294, Your Honours.

14             JUDGE KWON:  Please continue.

15             THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.

16             And now I'm going to read a short summary of

17     Mr. Mihajlo Orlovic's statement in English.

18             [In English] Mihajlo Orlovic worked as a journalist at the

19     RS Radio and Television in Banja Luka.  Before the conflict broke out in

20     BH, he worked at the Sanski Most Radio.  He was a member of the

21     League of Communists of Yugoslavia in the former SFRY, but after the

22     breakup of the SFRY, he did not join any party.

23             The SDA was formed in Sanski Most a few days before the SDS.

24     Ethnic tensions began to rise during the conflict in Croatia and this

25     spread great fear among Serbs, who were afraid that the killings carried

Page 46621

 1     out during the Second World War could repeat again.

 2             The first incidents in the territory of Sanski Most municipality

 3     were caused by Muslims, and during one of these incidents, a soldier was

 4     killed.  After these frequent provocations, the Crisis Staff ordered that

 5     an appeal be broadcast to all citizens to surrender illegal fire-arms and

 6     military equipment which the inhabitants of some Bosnian Muslim

 7     neighbourhoods and villages ignored.  As a consequence, women and

 8     children and old people were called on to come out of their homes so that

 9     the legal civilian and military police forces could conduct a search and

10     confiscate the weapons.

11             During the search, those people found in possession of illegal

12     arms were taken into custody, while the peaceful citizens who did not

13     endanger others could feel at ease regardless of their affiliations.  All

14     peace-loving citizens sought protection in schools and halls, and efforts

15     were made to enable them to do that.  Those Muslim extremists who did not

16     want to surrender their weaponry resisted and put up a fight.  Seven

17     Serbian soldiers were killed in the clashes.

18             Numerous attempts were made to establish peace and the rule of

19     law and order in the municipality.  For instance, the Serbs offered the

20     Muslims in Sanski Most to divide the territory in which they operated

21     politically.  Furthermore, negotiations were conducted with the

22     representatives of the Muslim side and appeals were broadcast on the

23     radio for the calming of tensions.  Radio Sanski Most tried to be up to

24     date and to report objectively about the situation, while insisting on

25     the preservation of peace.

Page 46622

 1             On 25th of March, 1992, all Serb territories in the municipality

 2     were declared part of the Bosnian Serb republic as a unified Serb

 3     municipality of Sanski Most and on the 3rd of April, 1992, the

 4     municipality became part of the ARK.  The Serbs established authorities

 5     in Sanski Most on 11th of April, 1992.  They wanted to remain in the

 6     joint state.  Most people welcomed these decisions with relief, although

 7     they saw it as a temporary solution and expected that an agreement on

 8     joint participation in the authorities would soon be reached.

 9             The Muslim part of the police station which did not want to

10     remain part of the Serbian police force broke away and set up its own

11     police force in the premises of the municipal assembly building.  The

12     Serbian authorities called on them to return their weapons and leave the

13     building, but since they did not comply, it was decided to disarm them.

14     No one was wounded or killed during this operation.

15             At the beginning of the conflict and until the authorities in

16     Sanski Most brought everything under control, individuals and criminal

17     groups exploited the situation of chaos for their own benefits.  For

18     general safety reasons, the authorities had to introduce a curfew and

19     controls on movement that applied to all citizens.  For a certain time,

20     all telecommunications and road connections were cut, and all decisions

21     were made in the SDS Municipal Board and in the Municipal Assembly but

22     for the benefit of all citizens of Sanski Most.  At the same time, the

23     SDA used various instruments of propaganda aimed at causing chaos and

24     disorders.

25             Many citizens of all ethnicities decided to leave Sanski Most

Page 46623

 1     municipality because of the war-time poverty and personal insecurity.

 2     Convoys of civilians were organised and escorted by the Serb civilian and

 3     military police in order to ensure them a safe passage.  At the same

 4     time, columns of Serbs were arriving from the places where Muslims and

 5     Croats were in power.  All citizens who wanted to leave could maintain,

 6     sell, or exchange their property.

 7             On June the 13th, 1992, the Sanski Most Crisis Staff adopted a

 8     decision to stop the looting of private property by arresting and

 9     detaining the perpetrators and seizing the stolen property.  In many

10     cases, Serb refugees were accommodated into abandoned houses temporarily.

11     Nevertheless, several thousand Muslims decided to remain and continued to

12     live in Sanski Most until the end of the conflict in 1995.

13             And that is a short summary.  At that moment, I do not have

14     questions for Mr. Orlovic.

15             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

16             Mr. Orlovic, as you have noted, your evidence in-chief in this

17     case has been admitted in writing.  That is, through your written witness

18     statement in lieu of your oral testimony.

19             We'll adjourn for today, and tomorrow you will be cross-examined

20     by the representative of the Office of the Prosecutor.  I'd like to

21     advise you not to discuss with anybody else about your testimony.

22             Do you understand that, Mr. Orlovic?

23             THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I understand you perfectly.

24             JUDGE KWON:  Thank you.

25             Hearing is adjourned.

Page 46624

 1                            --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.46 p.m.,

 2                           to be reconvened on Thursday, the 6th day of

 3                           February, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.