1 Wednesday, 12 February 2014
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness takes the stand]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.01 a.m.
6 JUDGE KWON: Good morning, everyone.
7 Yes, Mr. Harvey.
8 MR. HARVEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours.
9 May I introduce Alexandra Doyle, who has been with the team since
10 the beginning of January but leaves us now for the European Commission.
11 She is a graduate of Oxford University and has a LL.M. from
12 Edinburgh University. Thank you.
13 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson, please continue.
14 MS GUSTAFSON: Thank you, Your Honours, and good morning.
15 WITNESS: GOJKO KLICKOVIC [Resumed]
16 [Witness answered through interpreter]
17 Cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson: [Continued]
18 Q. Mr. Klickovic, yesterday in answer to a question from
19 Dr. Karadzic about the Varian A and B instructions, you emphasised:
20 "It meant nothing to me and I did not even take it at the
21 Holiday Inn conference room when it was distributed."
22 That's at transcript page 32013.
23 The reason you didn't take a copy of the Variant A and B
24 instructions is because Mr. Vjestica, the SDS president of
25 Bosanska Krupa, was also present at the Holiday Inn and as the document
1 was marked strictly confidential, between the two of you, you took only
2 one copy and it was Mr. Vjestica who took the copy back to Bosanska Krupa
3 acquaint the local SDS membership with its contents; that's right, isn't
5 A. I don't remember exactly, but I think it was as you described it.
6 Because he was the president of the Municipal Board of the SDS and I was
7 the deputy. I was in the know, but Mr. Vjestica was present when those
8 texts were distributed. He was a delegate in the club. Both the
9 Main Board and the club often had joint sessions because the composition
10 of both -- both bodies was the same.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON: If I could have 65 ter 26007, page 32 of the
12 English and page 29 of the B/C/S, please.
13 Q. Mr. Klickovic, this is the portion of your interview with the OTP
14 where you speak about this. And at line 9 in the English and at line 11
15 in the B/C/S, you're shown a document with a reference number that is, in
16 fact, the Variant A and B instructions. Those are the reference numbers
17 for P5 in evidence in this case. And at line 12 you're asked in -- in
18 the English, and at line 14 in the B/C/S, you're asked:
19 "When was the first you knew of these instructions?"
20 And you explain about the session of the Main Board and that the
21 document was adopted. And then you're asked:
22 "So you were there when it was presented to you?"
23 And you answer:
25 And then you were asked if you took a copy back to Bosanska Krupa
1 and you say:
2 "I think the deputy took it on because it had strictly
3 confidential marks so we didn't necessarily take more than one copy, and
4 he was the local party president anyway so he just took it to acquaint
5 the SDS membership with it."
6 And you're asked if that is Mr. Vjestica you're talking about and
7 you say:
9 Does that remind you that at this meeting at the Holiday Inn, it
10 was Mr. Vjestica who took the copy of the Variant A and B instructions
11 back to Bosanska Krupa?
12 A. Maybe yes; but maybe no. It was a long time ago, you see, and
13 that document, since I was up to date -- I had all the up-to-date
14 information, I don't remember that document so precisely because it
15 didn't -- it wasn't binding on me to do anything because there were the
16 existing laws of Yugoslavia and the Socialist Republic of
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina that were in force. And why deal with these
18 instructions. This was, by the way, the answer I had to give, because
19 the investigators wouldn't talk about anything else but the instructions.
20 Whenever I mentioned a law, they would say, No, that's not a problem,
21 we're only interested in the instructions, as if the instructions had
22 been God given.
23 Q. Now, Mr. Klickovic, immediately after this exchange, you concede
24 that you -- of your own accord volunteer the information and pursuant to
25 these instructions, instructions on the party activities in Krupa were
1 compiled. And investigator says:
2 "I think we have a copy of those. We'll get to them in a
4 And then he says:
5 "So pursuant to the document that we were talking about,
6 Bosanska Krupa also adopted the instruction for the work of the SDS party
7 within the municipality of Bosanska Krupa; right?"
8 And you say:
10 And then the investigator shows you a document and asks you if
11 it's your signature on the last page, and you say:
12 "I think so."
13 And then you're asked -- sorry, this is the next page in the
14 B/C/S, page 30.
15 And you're asked:
16 "You said Bosanska Krupa had drafted their own instructions. Is
17 this document you're referring to?"
18 And you answer:
19 "Yes, yes, pursuant to the instructions from the" --
20 JUDGE KWON: Probably the next page for the English as well.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, sorry. My apologies.
22 Q. So you're asked in -- this is line 12 of the English. You said
24 "Bosanska Krupa had drafted their own instructions. Is this the
25 document you're referring to?"
1 And you say:
2 "Yes, yes, pursuant to the instructions from the republic [sic]
4 Now, in this passage, Mr. Klickovic, you volunteered the
5 information to the investigators that, pursuant to the Variant A and B
6 instructions that apparently meant nothing to you, you in Bosanska Krupa
7 adopted instructions for the work of the SDS party in the municipality;
9 A. No. I repeat that I, as deputy president of the party, the two
10 of us, had prepared instructions long before these. Because
11 Bosanska Krupa was a newly established municipality with 28 local
12 communes and we wanted to unify the activities and the behaviour in
13 all -- in the whole municipality.
14 So we had already worked out something, and when this -- these
15 instructions appeared, we didn't mind, and we referred to them because
16 they were also a product of the laws and regulations on which we based
17 our instructions about the behaviour of the bodies in the Bosanska Krupa
19 Why didn't I accept this as a valid document? Because everything
20 it contains already existed in the laws and regulations, and I saw this
21 merely as a summary.
22 Q. Sorry for interrupting you, but you're moving away from my
23 question and repeating something that you've said many times now.
24 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could go to 65 ter 00242U. And if I could
25 have these two pages added to Exhibit P -- [overlapping speakers]
1 JUDGE KWON: Let me come back to his answer. If could you
2 clarify this statement. You said:
3 "Why didn't I accept this as a valid document? Because
4 everything it contains already existed ..."
5 Why does that make a document invalid?
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The instruction itself as a
7 document has no legal force. Before that instruction, many laws were
8 adopted and many --
9 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
10 We -- any country has a law that prohibits a theft. If the
11 president prohibits specifically a theft again, that has nothing -- no
12 effect at all? Can the president emphasise what is stated in the law?
13 Just hypothetically.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] He can do that. But if that
15 already exists in the laws and regulations we are duty-bound to abide by
16 it. Why reiterate something that's already regulated?
17 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
18 Yes, please continue, Ms. Gustafson.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Thank you. Could these two pages be added to
20 P6662, please.
21 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add to that P6662, two pages.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON:
23 Q. If we could zoom in on the lower part of this map to -- to show
24 just the map of Bosanska Krupa. That looks perfect. Thank you.
25 Mr. Klickovic, I'd like to ask you now the evacuation order you
1 issued on the 28th of April, 1992, which you refer to at -- in your
3 And if I could get you to first, with the assistance of the
4 usher, trace the line that the Una river -- the path of the Una river
5 through your municipality, Bosanska Krupa.
6 A. The Una river -- or, rather, Bosanska Krupa is in the Una valley.
7 The Una runs from Drvar where it springs through the Bihac municipality,
8 through Bosanska Krupa, and flows on towards Novi Grad, where it flows
9 into the Sava.
10 Q. Could you please trace the path of the Una through
11 Bosanska Krupa.
12 A. [Marks]
13 Q. Thank you. Now if could you circle the eight villages that are
14 listed in your evacuation order and I will recite them to you to remind
15 you. The first one is Ostroznica.
16 A. It isn't here. But it must be hereabouts. Veliki Badic and
17 Mali Badic are villages and it's in between there. Mali Badic,
18 Ostroznica, Veliki Badic. Oh, no, I found it. Here it is. This is the
19 town here.
20 Q. If you could also circle Veliki Badic and Mali Badic.
21 A. [Marks]
22 Q. Zalin.
23 A. [Marks]
24 Q. Veliki Jasenica.
25 A. [Marks]
1 Q. Arapusa.
2 A. [Marks]
3 Q. Veliki Dubovik.
4 A. [Marks]
5 Q. And Potkalinje.
6 A. [Marks]
7 Q. Okay. Thank you. And you agree with what is depicted in this
8 ethnic map that Zalin, Veliki Jasenica, and Potkalinje were in 1991 Serb
9 majority villages?
10 A. As local communes, yes. But the populated places themselves, no.
11 Q. So they were -- they were mixed. There were Serbs and
12 Muslims [Overlapping speakers] ...
13 A. [No interpretation]
14 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter didn't understand the witness.
15 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Klickovic, could you repeat your answer.
16 Interpreters didn't hear you.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] If we look at these populated
18 places, Zalin, Veliki Dubovik, Potkalinje, and Veliki Jasenica as parts
19 of their respective local communes, then they had a Serbian majority.
20 But if we look at them as populated places, they were exclusively Bosniak
22 MS. GUSTAFSON:
23 Q. And you agree with what is generally depicted on this map of the
24 municipality that in 1991, almost all of the Serbs lived on the right
25 bank of the Una, on the south side, whereas the left bank, the north
1 side, was largely Muslim; is that correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. If you could just initial and date the bottom right-hand
4 corner of this map.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: And I would tender that, please.
6 JUDGE KWON: Yes, that will make Exhibit P6663.
7 MS. GUSTAFSON:
8 Q. Now, Mr. Klickovic, when you talk about your order evacuating the
9 Muslim population --
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second.
11 Could you put your signature, Mr. Klickovic.
12 MR. ROBINSON: Also today is the 12th of February.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Shall we correct it. Today is 12th. You are
14 ahead of us, Mr. Klickovic.
15 THE WITNESS: [Marks]
16 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON:
18 Q. Mr. Klickovic, in your statement, at paragraph 13 [Realtime
19 transcript read in error "12"], you discuss your order evacuating the
20 Muslim population from these eight villages you just circled. And you
21 say that you were moving civilians out of the zone of combat operations
22 to the other side of the Una river.
23 Now, when we look at the map, we can see that doesn't make sense
24 as an explanation because these villages are mixed in an area of Serb and
25 Muslim villages, and, in fact, some of these are ethnically mixed areas
2 So if you were really moving civilians out of the combat zone for
3 their own safety, you would have been moving the Serbs and the Muslims
4 out of this area, not just the Muslim population. In this order, you
5 were just trying to get the Muslims out of an area you claimed for the
6 Serbs; right?
7 A. It would be good if the Prosecution refrained from using terms
8 that cannot be found in the order or elsewhere. "Removal" or "to remove"
9 is a word that cannot be found in these documents. I didn't order for
10 population to be removed but, rather, to be evacuated from the endangered
11 zones. There was also an order about the evacuation of the Serbian
12 population from the other side where they were threatened, and there was
13 also one for the evacuation of -- the evacuation of the Muslim population
14 to the left bank of the Una where they wanted to go and where they would
15 be safer. This was done upon the explicit request of the Muslim
16 representatives with whom we signed protocols about the evacuation, about
17 the time, and place, and method to be applied. In other words, the
18 evacuation was done upon the request of the leadership of those villages,
19 because combat activities had already begun not only along the Una but
20 also elsewhere, and people wanted to be safe.
21 I won't say that anybody was keen on leaving their homes and go
22 elsewhere, but at the time people thought that they would be safer
23 elsewhere and that their safety came above all else. That's why those
24 orders about evacuation, the first, second, third, fourth, were issued.
25 But in keeping with the provisions of Articles 208, 210 of the law, where
1 it says that it -- it's the exclusive authority of the president of the
2 municipality to sign evacuation orders in special circumstances or in
3 war-time conditions.
4 Q. Mr. Klickovic, you haven't really answered my question, which is:
5 How could this be about removing people from the combat zone for their
6 own safety where you just selectively evacuated Muslims from an area that
7 was mixed Muslim and Serb? That doesn't make any sense, does it?
8 A. I think that it is very clear that the Muslims felt threatened
9 where they were surrounded by Serbs, although they weren't afraid of
10 their neighbours. And I was very clear when I said that everything was
11 done upon the explicit request of the Muslim population who wanted a
12 safer place. Until the war -- the combat operations were over.
13 There was -- there's also a written trace, and there are
14 documents signed by both sides that the population would return when the
15 combat operations were over, and the property would be guarded against
16 those that stayed behind; that is, the Serbs.
17 Q. You are aware, are you not, that a couple of weeks after you
18 issued your evacuation order at the 16th Assembly Session on the
19 12th of May, Dr. Karadzic announced the strategic objectives of the
20 Serbian people, including establishing a border on the Una river, part of
21 goal number 4; right?
22 A. I know that because I took part in the work and I was an
23 official. But the border on the Una was established long before this.
24 We, even then, didn't wait for that date and for the implementation of
25 strategic goals, but we set up a temporary border on the Una river in
1 agreement with the other side. I am familiar with the objectives, but
2 they did not directly affect the way we worked in the Serbian
3 municipality of Bosanska Krupa.
4 Q. You are aware, are you not that after Dr. Karadzic announced the
5 strategic objectives at the session, Miroslav Vjestica, the deputy from
6 your municipality, explained that all the Muslims from the right bank of
7 the Una had been evacuated and then said:
8 "Will they have a place to return to? I think it is unlikely
9 after our president told us the happy news that the right bank of the Una
10 is the border."
11 A. It is correct that I know of this statement by Mr. Vjestica, a
12 delegate from my area, and he was a member of the leadership team
13 together with me. But this doesn't contain the whole text because
14 further on you could see the statement itself and understand its accurate
15 meaning. There had been a problem with the Muslims who were members of
16 the Patriotic League or the Green Berets and it was said of them that
17 there would be no place for them to return to the other side of the Una
18 and that was the official position of the policy of the Serbian
19 municipality of Bosanska Krupa. And mine too. I was the number one man
20 there. And to my mind, statements can never be the official position of
21 the policy. That can be found in the documents of the Serbian
22 municipality of Bosanska Krupa; that is, on the right bank of the Una.
23 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson, when you began your cross-examination
24 on this topic, you stated that Mr. Klickovic stated in his paragraph 12
25 of his statement that in relation to the moving population, or something
1 like that. But I can't find the passage in that paragraph. Was it not
2 included in the redacted one?
3 MS. GUSTAFSON: No, I apologise, Your Honour. I must have
4 misspoke. It's paragraph 13, the second half of the paragraph.
5 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Thank you.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON:
7 Q. And a few days after this Assembly session where the strategic
8 objectives were announced, you ordered the evacuation of the remaining
9 population -- Muslim population from the Serbian municipality of
10 Bosanska Krupa, didn't you?
11 A. Yes. But you cannot establish a link between that and the
12 strategic objectives of the assembly. We're talking about Zalug and the
13 remainders of a populated place at Bazadzik. People who were my
14 neighbours wanted to go to the left bank of the Una until all that
15 madness, as they put it, was over. It was clearly established. People
16 came to me and asked me if -- for an evacuation to be organised so that
17 they could cross the Una and they felt they would be safe on the left
18 bank among their own police and army, which was the BH army. This was
19 done with the best possible organisation, and those activities were well
20 received because the population that felt threatened remained unharmed.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 01061, please.
22 Q. This is the evacuation order you were just speaking about;
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Now, you said that this was done at the request of the people
1 affected, but this document refers, as reasons for this evacuation, that
2 the political situation is becoming more complex, that Izetbegovic has
3 been threatening members of the Serb army, and, as a result, no personal
4 or collective safety can be guaranteed to the Muslim population if the
5 war escalates.
6 Now, surely, if you had done this at the request of the Muslims
7 affected, you would have put this in your order to make it look less like
8 a criminal expulsion order, wouldn't you?
9 A. No. The order is a document which is regulated by regulations.
10 The way it's written is regulated. And an order always contains the
11 subject and a reasoning based on the assessment of the political
13 In this part, which you have just read out, I can't say that
14 Hamdija Arnautovic and Vejsil Palic and the rest of them contacted me and
15 told me why they wanted to go. But it boils down to the following: The
16 situation is getting more complex. Please make sure that we can leave
17 with dignity. They left their houses and the keys to their Serbian
18 neighbours, and when they returned they got them back.
19 Q. The document says the evacuation should be directed towards
20 Cazin Krajina. That's an area on the left bank of the Una river, outside
21 the territories defined by the strategic objectives; right?
22 A. That's right. The Cazin Krajina is on the left bank of the Una,
23 but 400 square kilometres of the municipality of Bosanska Krupa is in the
24 territory of Cazinska Krajina.
25 Q. And a few days after you issued this order, having essentially
1 eliminated the Muslims from the Serbian municipality, you proposed the
2 cleansing and destruction of property along the left bank of the Una as
3 part of your effort to establish a border on the Una river in accordance
4 with the strategic objectives; right?
5 A. That is not right. These two things cannot be connected that
6 way. It is very well known why the facilities along the Una river should
7 be neutralised because they're military objectives and they're the target
8 of sniping fire. It is a well-known thing that women and children were
9 killed by that kind of sniper fire, and also from minarets, from mosques,
10 where snipers were. This does not mean elimination. And the destruction
11 of these targets along the Una river does not mean setting a border. It
12 means destroying the sniper nests on the right bank of the Una river that
13 were sowing death.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: Could we have P2616, please.
15 JUDGE KWON: Are you tendering this document?
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: Yes, please.
17 JUDGE KWON: We'll receive it as Exhibit P6664.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON:
19 Q. Mr. Klickovic, this is a proposal signed by you, dated the
20 25th of May, 1992. And under point 1, it refers to carrying out military
21 preparations concerning the cleansing of the left bank of the Una.
22 And under point 2, it says:
23 "In the course of preparations and cleansing of the left bank of
24 the Una, destroy and pull down as many residential and other buildings as
1 And point 3 refers to preparing to blow up bridges across the
3 And the reasons -- the number one reason stated for this proposal
4 is the political determination to have the border of the Serbian
5 municipality AR Banja Luka, Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
6 Serbian state established along the river Una up to Bosanska Otoka.
7 So contrary to what you said a moment ago, this was part of your
8 effort to establish a thick and permanent border on the Una river;
10 A. That is not correct. You have to view events chronologically.
11 Documents and one's attitude after the strategic objectives is a
12 different thing, those adopted by the Serb Assembly of Bosnia-Herzegovina
13 and behaviour before that and activities before that are a different
14 matter. This document is entitled: "Proposal." And it is sent to the
15 army. It is sent to the brigade for their consideration and to see --
16 because the civilian authorities were heavily criticised because of the
17 destruction of housing facilities and on the right bank of the Drina
18 river --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Of the Una river, interpreter's correction.
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] And that is why we asked for combat
21 to be removed from that area and of course to set up a border, that is to
22 say prepare bridges or destroy them, because the Serb municipality of
23 Bosanska Krupa did not have forces to defend themselves and to set up a
24 front line since we had 16 territorial dispatches from Cazin Krajina to
25 deal with. And this is a proposal that is sent to the brigade and then
1 the brigade decides whether they're going to do this or not. This is not
2 of a binding nature, and that is why it is called a proposal because
3 otherwise it would have been an order. However, the civilian authorities
4 cannot issue an order to the armed forces, and we knew that.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON:
6 Q. Mr. Klickovic, after you had evacuated the Muslims out of the
7 Serb municipality, out of the right bank of the Una river, and
8 established a border on the Una, you stated publicly that the Muslims
9 could not return to the Serb side, didn't you?
10 A. That is correct that they could not return until operations and
11 everything concerning the war came to an end. Before we achieved an
12 agreement with the other side, every three or four days some sabotage
13 groups came and they tried to create chaos by way of these incursions,
14 and that is why we said that at that moment that was justified.
15 Q. I'd like to play a video containing an interview or comments you
16 gave to Banja Luka Television at the time of these events.
17 [Video-clip played]
18 JUDGE KWON: 65 ter number.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Pardon me.
20 [Prosecution counsel confer]
21 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter: What does the
22 representative of the authorities say about all that?
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: This is 65 ter 40639. I apologise.
24 [Video-clip played]
25 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Gojko Klickovic: The River Una is
1 the border of the Serbian state of Bosnia-Herzegovina and it is to be
2 expected that the provocations and shooting will continue, because most
3 of the areas where they are located have been ethnically clean areas of
4 the Muslim people even before ..."
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: Just pausing there for a moment.
6 Q. Mr. Klickovic, that is you talking to TV Banja Luka; correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay. If we could continue.
9 [Video-clip played]
10 THE ACCUSED: Could it be continued -- same.
11 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's stop it.
12 Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
13 THE ACCUSED: Could it be continued from the -- very second that
14 was stopped?
15 JUDGE KWON: I take it it's very short. We'll start from the
16 beginning? Yes.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: That's fine.
18 [Video-clip played]
19 THE INTERPRETER: [Voiceover] "Reporter: What does the
20 representative of the authorities say about all that?
21 "Gojko Klickovic: The River Una is the border of the Serbian
22 state of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and it is to be expected that the
23 provocations and shooting will continue, because most of the areas where
24 they are located have been ethnically clean areas of the Muslim people
25 even before, and we have no aspirations to conquer and take those areas,
1 but on the other hand, we will not allow such provocations and we will
2 energetically respond to all provocations, just like we have been doing
3 so far. The situation at the front line, with regard to maintaining the
4 first line of defence, is fairly stable. The morale of the Serbian
5 fighter who are guarding this area and who are guarding the state ...
6 who are guarding the state border of the Serb
7 Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina is very good. When Alija's
8 fundamentalists started this shameful endeavour, they had already been
9 doomed to fail, and the work that we carried out in the first three days
10 is now just being continued; i.e., the borders are being continually
11 reinforced and we can freely say that the border is stable at the moment
12 and arrival of any Muslim formations or Muslim population to this area is
13 not a possibility any longer. They have embarrassed themselves and they
14 have antagonised the Serbian people so much that there is not even a
15 possibility of co-existence and let alone us living together as stated."
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I'm expecting a question.
17 JUDGE KWON: The translation has just been concluded. You will
18 hear a question.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON:
20 Q. Mr. Klickovic, a moment ago you said that what you had stated at
21 the time was that the Muslims could not return until the combat had
22 concluded but what you actually said at the time on television was that."
23 "... arrival of any Muslim formations or Muslim population to
24 this area is not a possibility any longer. They have embarrassed
25 themselves and they have antagonised the Serbian people so much that
1 there is not a possibility of co-existence and let alone us living
2 together ..."
3 A. Correct. And as far as this interview is concerned, I'm really
4 not ashamed of this interview because I said the real truth at that point
5 in time. It is quite clear why I said this at the end. Well, that is
6 because just a day or two before this interview, they had these two
7 sabotage groups that broke in and they killed some civilians in Busevic
8 and a few civilians in a part of town near the sports field although a
9 cease-fire had been signed. And it was stated: Let the Una be there
10 until the stronger ones decide, because we were not the ones down there
11 who decided on war and peace. That is why this statement was made. And
12 we clearly stated that nothing else could be discussed while combat was
13 still going on and while they were still doing what they were doing,
14 while there was sniping from the other side. And you see that we made it
15 clear that we were not interested in the territory where the Muslim
16 population lived and where they lived.
17 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could the witness please
18 be asked to speak more slowly. Thank you.
19 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Klickovic, you are being asked to speak slowly.
20 MS. GUSTAFSON:
21 Q. Mr. Klickovic, in your answer you say: That is why the statement
22 was made and why we clearly stated that nothing else could be discussed
23 while combat was still going on.
24 But what you said at the time was that the Muslims could not
25 return. Period. Full stop. You didn't say anything about the
1 possibility of them returning after combat ceased; correct?
2 A. Correct. But I'm not a prophet, and I could not foresee what
3 would happen on the following day or the following ten or 20 days. When
4 statements of this kind are made, one speaks only of the momentary
5 situation and the momentary range of thought in politics that prevails at
6 that point in time. In war-time, everything changes from one day to the
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tender this clip, please.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6665, Your Honours.
11 MS. GUSTAFSON:
12 Q. Now, Mr. Klickovic, in your statement when you talk at length
13 about Dr. Karadzic's character, you say that Dr. Karadzic often cited
14 Njegos to you and others, repeating the line, "A timid chief has no
15 business ruling." Now that is a line from Njegos' most famous work, "The
16 Mountain Wreath," isn't it?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And in essence "The Mountain Wreath" celebrates the extermination
19 by Montenegrins of Muslims -- of Montenegrin Muslims who had converted to
20 Islam, celebrates their mass killing, and the destruction of their homes
21 and mosques, doesn't it?
22 A. I'm not sure that that's right, and I actually didn't study "The
23 Mountain Wreath" either. The reason why I said this was the following:
24 The president often cautioned us who were working on the ground that we
25 should always give consideration to everything, give it considerable
1 thought, be prepared to make concessions and find a solution that would
2 not hurt anyone regardless of who such a person belonged to. That is why
3 I quoted that, not because of what you are trying to impute to me,
4 because I did not study "Gorski Vijenac."
5 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 06998, page 84 of the
6 English and page 71 of the B/C/S.
7 And while that is coming up, Mr. Klickovic, you may not have
8 studied "The Mountain Wreath," but it is a very famous poem in the region
9 that you come from, isn't it?
10 A. I was born on the Una river, below Mount Grmec, and I'm pretty
11 far away from Montenegro, about 500 or 600 kilometres away. And, I mean,
12 I really never studied literature. I read what I had to read at school.
13 I never studied Njegos or Cosic or anybody else.
14 Q. Okay. Well, perhaps this will remind you of the gist of this
15 poem. This is towards the end where Vojvoda Batric is giving a report to
16 Bishop Danilo on what he refers to as a skirmish with the Turks last
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 72 in the B/C/S and
19 this is the middle of the page in the English.
20 Q. He describes this encounter. He says:
21 "As wide and long that Cetinje Plain is, not one witness was able
22 to escape to tell his tale about what happened there. We put under our
23 sharp sabres all those who did not want to be baptised by us. But all
24 those who bowed to the Holy Child and crossed themselves with the sign of
25 Christian cross, we accepted and hailed as our brothers. We set on fire
1 all the Turkish houses, that there might not be a single trace left of
2 our faithless domestic enemy.
3 "From Cetinje we set out for Ceklic. But the Turks of Ceklic all
4 ran away, so we cut down only a few of them, but we also set their houses
5 ablaze. Out of their mosque and of a small building we made a pile of
6 accursed rubble there, as a warning of shame to all people."
7 And then the bishop responds that this news has brought him great
8 gladness and joy.
9 Does that remind you of the fact that this poem celebrates the
10 killing of Muslims, the destruction of their homes, and destruction of
11 their mosques?
12 A. As for any destruction and any life that is lost during such
13 destruction, I condemn all of that. I think that trying to link
14 President Karadzic to Njegos is unnecessary because Radovan was not a
15 Vojvoda, he was not a bishop either; he was a children's writer, a
16 doctor, a humanist, and these two things really have nothing to do with
17 each other. I believe that this is really being taken out of the context
18 even of good manners, if you will.
19 Q. I'm not the one with who linked Dr. Karadzic to Njegos. You did.
20 And now I'd like to look at the line that you specifically state that he
21 repeated often.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 14 of the English and
23 page 3 of the B/C/S.
24 Q. This is the very opening of the poem where Bishop Danilo starts
25 by saying:
1 "Lo the devil with seven scarlet cloaks, with two swords and with
2 two crowns of his head, the great-grandchild of the Turk with Qur'an!
3 Behind him hordes of that accursed litter, march to lay waste to the
4 whole planet earth, just as locusts devastate the green fields."
5 Now, here Bishop Danilo is describing Muslims as an accursed
6 litter akin to a plague of locusts; right?
7 A. I did not go into this subject matter. The fact that I used this
8 and provided an answer to the question put by the Defence lawyer on
9 President Karadzic's Defence team, I was explicit and clear. I tried to
10 show how democratic he was in his treatment of people and also I tried to
11 explain what he asked us who were working on the ground to do, those of
12 us who made certain decisions on behalf of the party, and in some
13 situations we had to make do ourselves. So I just mentioned in that
14 context that Radovan often would say to us: Have these tensions eased,
15 easy on the adrenaline, and try to see how you're going to resolve things
16 on the ground without any clashes, without any negative tendencies.
17 That would be all.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: And if we could go to page 16 in the English,
19 page 4 of the B/C/S.
20 Q. At the very bottom in the B/C/S, this is Vuk Micunovic responding
21 to the bishop's lament regarding the plague of Muslims in the land. And
22 he says:
23 "Don't, my Bishop, if you have faith in God! What misfortune has
24 come over you now ..."
25 And on the next page in the B/C/S:
1 "... that you do wail like some ... cuckoo-bird and drown
2 yourself in our Serbian troubles? Is today not a festive occasion on
3 which you have gathered Montenegrins to cleanse our land of loathsome
5 On the next page in English and about ten lines down in the
6 B/C/S, he says:
7 "Banish, Bishop, such dark and gloomy thoughts! Men bravely
8 bear, wailing is for women. A timid chief has no business ruling! You
9 are not left just to your resources. Do you not see these 500 brave
11 And roughly 12 lines down, towards the end of his speech, he
13 "Beside the youths present here around you, there are six times
14 as many back at home. Their strength, Bishop, is surely your strength
15 too. Before the Turks will have conquered them all, many a wife of the
16 Turk will wear black. Our struggle won't come to an end until we or the
17 Turks are exterminated."
18 Now this is the passage where the line, "a timid chief has no
19 business ruling," appears. And it is clear in context that Vuk Micunovic
20 is using this line to try to encourage the bishop to be brave because
21 they have hundreds of Montenegrins ready to cleanse the land of Turks and
22 they will not stop until they or the Turks are exterminated. In other
23 words, this is part of a call to ethnically cleanse the land of Muslims,
24 is it not?
25 A. You've gone far, far away. I just said a single sentence, or to
1 be more precise, a few words that he used, not mentioning this part up
2 and this part down when he wanted to draw our attention to what we should
3 be like; that is to say that we should have a fiery temper, that we
4 should be patient, but that we should work that way, that was his way of
5 operating. Believe me, as for "The Mountainous Wreath," I'm not
6 interested. This is history, way back before me. I don't have time to
7 deal with all of this, let alone something that happened 200 years ago.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: I'd tender the pages we referred to in the first
9 page of this document, please.
10 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we have no objection, but I just
11 note that I can imagine what your reaction would have been had
12 Dr. Karadzic tried to do something like this. But the door is open, so
13 we don't have any objection, just hope you'll just give the same
14 consideration to Dr. Karadzic on his questions that you have given to
16 JUDGE KWON: The witness cited a sentence from this -- is this a
17 poem -- poem? And it's fair enough for the Prosecution to tender this.
18 Shall we admit only those pages referred to?
19 MR. ROBINSON: As far as we're concerned, we can admit the whole
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 THE ACCUSED: As a matter of fact, you can't understand thing if
23 you don't admit the whole -- whole poem.
24 JUDGE KWON: Yeah, the -- the -- emphasise will be on the
25 sentence which reads: "A timid chief has no business ruling."
1 But that -- bearing that in mind, we'll admit those pages shown
2 to the witness.
3 Shall we assign a number.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6666.
5 JUDGE KWON: Hmm.
6 MS. GUSTAFSON:
7 Q. Mr. Klickovic, you said you weren't interested in
8 "The Mountainous Wreath":
9 "This is history, way back before me. I don't have time to deal
10 with all of this, let alone something that happened 200 years ago."
11 In July 1992, at the 17th Assembly Session, Dr. Karadzic said:
12 "Last night at the caucus meeting we talked about Njegos a lot,
13 and we feel that every verse by Njegos reflects the situation that we are
14 now in."
15 That's D92, page 12.
16 Now during the war, did you ever hear Dr. Karadzic compare the
17 events recounted in "The Mountain Wreath" with current events?
18 A. No, I did not have an opportunity to hear that, and I did not
19 attend this session of the assembly and the club meeting in July 1992.
20 Q. In your statement, at paragraph 7, you refer to a visit from
21 Louise Arbour, then the Prosecutor of the ICTY, that took place when you
22 were prime minister. Now that visit was in January 1997; right?
23 A. I think that it was that time. That would be right.
24 Q. And you say in paragraph 7 that the Prosecutor Arbour inspected
25 some orders issued by Dr. Karadzic and "commented that it was all in
1 order and in accordance with applicable international rules."
2 Now what actually happened at this meeting was that you presented
3 her with 11 documents that had been preselected and provided to her as
4 part of an effort to convince her that the Mladic and Karadzic
5 indictments were unfounded. That's basically what happened, isn't it?
6 A. That is not correct. The liaison officer for co-operation with
7 The Hague, assistant minister in my government, Goran Neskovic, was given
8 the task of taking all orders that the president signed and to show them.
9 And Mrs. Arbour was also allowed to copy everything and certify
10 everything and take anything she felt was necessary with her.
11 Afterwards, I spoke with my assistant, and he said that the comment was
12 that everything was in order and that she did not see anything
13 incriminating there, in that sense. They spoke as lawyers. It was not
14 11 orders that were mentioned. I don't know if there were 11 or 10 or
15 20. All I know is that I said that everything that was available should
16 be made available because there was nothing that we had to hide.
17 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have 65 ter 26006, please.
18 THE REGISTRAR: Hasn't been released, Ms. Gustafson.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: While we're waiting for that, Mr. Klickovic --
20 JUDGE KWON: I think we're hearing B/C/S in English channel. It
21 has been sorted out.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON: Okay. And I believe the document has been
23 released now, so perhaps we can just call it up.
24 Q. Mr. Klickovic, this is a report of a Bosnian Serb TV broadcast by
25 the BBC. It's only in English, so I will read the relevant passages to
2 It reports on Prosecutor Arbour's visit with you and others, and
3 it says that the meeting took place on the 21st of January and was
4 attended by you; Aleksa Buha; Branko Petric, the justice minister;
5 Dragan Kijac, interior minister; Svetislav Semojevic [phoen],
6 constitutional court chairman; and others.
7 Is that consistent with your recollection about the date of this
8 meeting and who was present?
9 A. I can say with 90 per cent certainty that the meeting did take
10 place. It was a meeting that preceded subsequent activities of Mrs.
11 Louise Arbour in Pale and an agreement to open an office for the Tribunal
12 investigators in Banja Luka, and these people probably did attend. These
13 were my associates. The ministers -- the date is the 21st of January, so
14 I don't see any reason for it to be different. I think it was that day,
15 that composition, and that topic.
16 Q. And the report states:
17 "The Serb republic government has taken adequate counter-measures
18 against The Hague Tribunal's bill of indictment against Radovan Karadzic
19 and Ratko Mladic."
20 And then it quotes from you stating:
21 "We have prepared 11 extensive documents showing that some
22 evidence cited in the bill of indictment, that is, most of the evidence,
23 does not wash.
24 "We wanted Mrs. Arbour to see the original documents which refute
25 the evidence presented in the bill of indictment, and I hope that this
1 will, to a certain extent, alter their position. Our position on all
2 that they are demanding from us remains the same."
3 Now whether or not it was 11 documents or -- or a slightly
4 different number is besides the point. But what happened at this meeting
5 is that you presented -- your delegation presented the Prosecutor with a
6 number of pre-selected documents in an effort to convince her that the
7 Mladic and Karadzic indictments didn't wash; right?
8 A. Correct. But the 11 documents were not orders. She didn't look
9 at those. These 11 documents are something else. If my memory serves
10 me, I think that these were also reports from these foreign teams who
11 were in the field, who recorded the situation, and I think those reports,
12 too, were submitted as evidence that what is -- was cited in the
13 indictment against President Karadzic and Commander Mladic does not
14 stand. That was our professional opinion. And we made it known at the
15 time to Mrs. Arbour that we will continue to work on this, and that
16 the -- we will offer counter-arguments in order to prove that crimes were
17 not on that side but by those who made or formed an illegal state and
18 then began to fight against the Serbian side.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: I tendered this report.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
21 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit P6667, Your Honours.
22 MS. GUSTAFSON:
23 Q. Mr. Klickovic, you've emphasised both in your statement and in
24 your testimony that Dr. Karadzic's orders were in compliance with
25 applicable laws. Now this Trial Chamber has received evidence that in
1 early February 1998 just after you concluded your term as prime minister,
2 ICTY investigators came to Pale to inspect various archives and in
3 connection with that there is a -- RS authorities took steps to conceal
4 documents they considered incriminatory, and I refer as examples to
5 P3934, P6489, and P6490.
6 Do you know --
7 THE ACCUSED: [No interpretation]
8 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Mr. Karadzic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I say something. Can we have
10 the reference, please. Where does it say that Mr. Klickovic was
11 prime minister still in February 1998? The government changed on the
12 11th of January, 1998.
13 MS. GUSTAFSON: Perhaps there was a mistranslation. I said
14 immediately after he concluded as prime minister, he confirmed he was
15 prime minister until January 1998.
16 Q. Mr. Klickovic, do you know anything about those efforts?
17 A. No. Because during my time, it did not occur to anyone to
18 conceal any documents, regardless of the nature of the documents. I
19 assert today also, and ultimately I did prove that in my seven-year case,
20 that all the documents of the government, the Presidency, and the
21 president were based on documents that were in force at that time, legal
22 regulations that were enforced at that time.
23 I have nothing to do with anything that happened in 1998. You
24 probably know who came to power in 1998 and which coalition. It was the
25 DRP. And perhaps they did all of these things, but even -- regardless of
1 what that DRP coalition did, they didn't have anything to conceal either.
2 Q. Okay --
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] If they -- if they did. If they
4 did anything. That was not recorded in the transcript.
5 MS. GUSTAFSON:
6 Q. At paragraph 6 of your statement you describe Dr. Karadzic's
7 intentions as "crystal-clear and honest like those of a child, true and
8 well meant."
9 Would it surprise you, Mr. Klickovic, to hear that Dr. Karadzic
10 was actually directing those efforts to hide incriminatory documents from
11 the ICTY? Would that be inconsistent with the child-like honesty that
12 you perceived in him?
13 A. I cannot believe that. Knowing Mr. Karadzic from before as a --
14 as an author and a doctor, I would never, never accept that he worked to
15 conceal crimes. To write for children, to treat people, and to move
16 around without any security at that time really speaks to the character
17 and the honesty of the man. I often disagreed with the president when I
18 was prime minister, but this calm, cool-blooded approach of his, the
19 tendency to comprise, that was the reason, because, in order to form a
20 state, a country, one has to act more energetically with more force and
21 he simply did not have the required force and strength to do that.
22 Q. Thank you, Mr. Klickovic.
23 MS. GUSTAFSON: I have no further questions.
24 JUDGE KWON: Thank you, Ms. Gustafson.
25 Mr. Karadzic, do you have any re-examination?
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Your Excellencies.
2 Re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
3 Q. [Interpretation] When we're on the topic of
4 "The Mountain Wreath," I would like to ask Mr. Klickovic to tell us or to
5 confirm - I don't want to be leading - but it's a historical fact, when
6 did Njegos live, and when did he write this poem?
7 A. As an intellectual, I will say that as far as I know this was
8 during the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans and the Turkish conquest when
9 there was a lot of burning, looting, destruction, such acts going on in
10 that territory. And at that time Njegos, as a bishop, painting the
11 events that happened in Montenegro at the time or the area of old
12 Herzegovina, because it's not just Montenegro, he put those events on
13 paper in his poem, "Gorski Vijenac," "Mountain Wreath," and others. I'm
14 more familiar with the work of Petar Kocic and Branko Copic from the area
15 where I come from, so I didn't really study Njegos so much. But that is
16 the historical context when Montenegro was constantly attacked from the
17 sea and from land. Every few years those areas would be engulfed in
18 flame and ashes. This is what I can say about the time when that poem
19 was created. We know that Njegos was a spiritual and temporal leader in
20 that period. He embodied both of those personalities. He was somebody
21 to whom the tribal leaders looked up to. These are the historical facts
22 that I am aware of.
23 Q. Thank you. If we agree, he lived in the first half of the
24 19th century, and do you happen to know when this alleged incident
25 happened with converted Serbs in Montenegro?
1 A. I think that this was -- I cannot remember --
2 Q. All right. This will be leading. Is it possible that this was
3 in the 17th century --
4 JUDGE KWON: Let's --
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Well, just looking at the
6 historical chronology in that area, it's possible but I'm not sure. I'm
7 not sure.
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I meant to tell you to move on.
9 Witness didn't remember.
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well. Can we then see from
11 this document, 65 ter 6998, page 091 -- actually, it's the ERN number 091
12 in the Serbian. That's the last page. 091. To see what Bishop Danilo
13 says here.
14 JUDGE KWON: We need to find the corresponding English page.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 003. Ah, yes, we have it. All
16 right. Very well.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. Do you recall how many characters there are in
19 "The Mountain Wreath"? Was it done as -- how many characters are
20 featured there?
21 A. I don't remember the number, but I remember many of them:
22 Vuk Mandusic, Vuk Micunovic, Bishop Danilo, I remember the Iguman. I
23 remember quite a few of the characters. And the main thing is that this
24 epic poem speaks about conquerers and people who come to destroy their
25 land, their homes, their property, their faith. This is the essence.
1 This is what we were taught in history. It was not the Montenegrins who
2 went anywhere. They were on their own land, on their own property, the
3 land of their fathers, and these others came to destroy that, to destroy
4 the people there. And that was the basis for the resistance, for the
5 struggle, and so on.
6 Q. Thank you. I would like to read from the fifth to the tenth
8 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters kindly ask for a reference in
10 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Where in English?
11 THE ACCUSED: Fifth -- fifth -- fifth line, yeah:
12 "Just as a wolf has the right ..."
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Please continue.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. "Just as a wolf has the right to his sheep, so has every tyrant
16 to a weakling, to place foot upon tyranny's neck, to lead tyrants to
17 knowledge of the right, this is the most sacred of man's duties."
18 Is this something that is well known among our people? Just as
19 the quote that I said, have these become sayings among the people?
20 A. Yes. Not just this. Even though I didn't study "The Mountain
21 Wreath," there are many verses that just ordinary people use or
22 paraphrase, perhaps they don't know the exact lines of the poem. But
23 Njegos is frequently quoted in all areas, particularly by those who are
24 familiar with the written word. Njegos is considered to be a
25 freedom-loving author, writer.
1 Q. Thank you. Can we see what he says about the crucifix and the
2 crescent moon.
3 [No interpretation]
4 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Where is it? On the same page?
5 With footnote 96, yes?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, yes. I think it's on the same
7 page. I'm going to read it in Serbian. I don't know what "crescent"
8 means in English, and I can kindly ask for this to be translated:
9 "Awesome symbols, the crescent and the cross; their kingdoms are
10 the realms of graveyards. Following them down the bloody river, sailing
11 in the small boat of great sorrows, we must honour the one or the other."
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. What do you think when the bishop says that the crescent and the
14 cross are awesome symbols and that even though we must honour the one or
15 the other, it should be done at the graveyard?
16 A. I must say that those two awesome symbols each one of them lead
17 to suffering. Regardless of the fact that the cross is his symbol and
18 the crescent moon, and we know whose symbol that was, he asserts that
19 each of these should be placed where their rightful place should be, and
20 that mostly everything that is happening is, let me put it, epic
21 suffering. In war, of course, people die on each side. Suffering is
22 inevitable. Suffering is something that marks each of the sides.
23 Q. Thank you. I'm going to say something else. I don't know what
24 page it is on, but I'm going to ask you if you recognise it.
25 [No interpretation]
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic --
2 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter's note that we are unable to
3 translate "The Mountain Wreath" a vista.
4 JUDGE KWON: Without reference, the interpreters find it
5 impossible to translate.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Excellencies. I
7 will find the reference after the break, because these are very important
8 lines of the poem because of the Serbian people's understanding of them
9 as their own. They consider them as their own.
10 Now I'm going to go back to the topic of Variant A and B, that
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. You asserted here --
14 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. So far then we'll add these page --
15 this page as well as English page 14 where the -- the dramatis personae
16 appears. So add these two pages to Exhibit P6666.
17 Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
18 MS. GUSTAFSON: Sorry. Maybe I misunderstood, I thought the
19 earlier ruling was to admit the entire document. I don't have a position
20 either way. I just ...
21 JUDGE KWON: I don't think we had -- we need to read all this
22 100-page poem. I think we admitted only those pages shown to the
23 witness. So we'll add this page, as well as page 14 in English, and
24 together with the corresponding B/C/S page.
25 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You said that as early as spring - May 1991 - you began
4 preparations for the plebiscite of the Serbian people and preparations
5 for the founding assembly.
6 At that time, did you have any instructions A and B or any
7 instruction from the Main Board?
8 A. No. In early 1991, in the territories exclusively inhabited by
9 the Serbian people, we organised a debate which we were obliged to do
10 according to the Law on the Referendum. So we organised a debate on the
11 establishment of our own municipality only in areas populated by the
12 Serbian people. So those areas that we mentioned Zalin, Potkalinje, and
13 others, we did not mention them as territorial entities, only the Serbian
14 municipality of Bosanska Krupa. We left them the possibility to join
15 functionally and effectively the municipality of Bosanska Krupa if they
16 chose to do so. There was no paper either from the
17 Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia or the Socialist Republic of
18 Bosnia and Herzegovina or any kind of instructions from the central
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can the witness be shown 65 ter
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. And, Mr. Klickovic, I kindly ask you to be as brief as possible
24 in your answers. I will try to keep my questions as brief as possible
25 too. The documents speak for themselves.
1 This is a report on the plebiscite and the referendum of the
2 Serbian people of Bosanska Krupa. And in the second paragraph, it says:
3 "Activities in preparing the Serbian people for the plebiscite
4 and referendum started back in May 1991."
5 Is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And then the reasons are referred to here, why this matter was
8 speeded up, the military data files, the Martic case, and so on and so
9 forth - I would like to tender this document - distribution of weapons
10 and other things. Everything is there in the document. They showed, and
11 this is already on the 2nd of December, 1991, you're saying that the
12 Muslims are getting ready for a settling of accounts with the Serbs?
13 A. Yes. We had information as to how many weapons there were
14 present on their side in our area.
15 Q. Thank you.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
19 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4315, Your Honours.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
21 Can we look at 65 ter 1042, please. I'm sorry. Actually, I will
22 use that document later.
23 65 ter 17480.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Klickovic, I don't have time to show the decisions about the
1 study. I'm going to the decision on the establishment of the assembly.
2 A. Yes, that is when the provisional assembly of the Serbian people
3 was constituted.
4 Q. And how does this stand in relation to the recommendation of the
5 assembly of the 11th of December or the ANB paper of the
6 19th of December?
7 A. Well, no, that has nothing to do with that. This was done much
9 Q. On the basis of what?
10 A. On the basis of positive laws and the programme of work and
11 agreement with partners.
12 Q. Thank you.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tendered this.
14 JUDGE KWON: I'm just wondering why we are coming back to these
15 events that has been redacted from his statement.
16 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. The Prosecution was trying to
17 imply that these things all happened as a result of Variants A and B and
18 Dr. Karadzic should be entitled to show what happened before.
19 MS. GUSTAFSON: Well, just to clarify. I never put to the
20 witness that the Serb municipality assembly was created pursuant to
21 Variant A and B, but the general topic, of course, was covered.
22 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we will receive this.
23 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4316, Your Honours.
24 JUDGE KWON: Shall we take a break?
25 We'll resume at 11.00.
1 --- Recess taken at 10.30 a.m.
2 --- On resuming at 11.05 a.m.
3 JUDGE KWON: Yes, please continue, Mr. Karadzic.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. I would like to put
5 back the previous document on the screen, only for a couplet.
6 6998. It's a 065. 65 ter 6998.
7 Has this one been admitted, Excellencies? Sorry, no, we're not
8 done with it. Let's go back so we finish it. I mean, the poetry.
9 091 in Serbian, 003 in -- this page is admitted. Let's just look
10 at a couplet.
11 Yes, it says here -- actually, the previous page in English.
12 Actually, no, this is it:
13 "Bravery is the lord of all evil, as well as the drink most sweet
14 to the soul."
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Are you familiar with this couplet? How is it remembered by the
18 A. Yes. It's familiar. The Serbian people often quotes that, in
19 our area too. Figuratively speaking, this is in the souls of the Serbian
20 people in our parts, and we also know what it means.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us see page 104 in Serbian.
22 Page 016 in English.
23 MR. KARADZIC:
24 Q. "Human blood is dangerous nourishment."
25 [Interpretation] It says here:
1 "Human blood is dangerous nourishment. It has started gushing
2 out of your nose. You have stuffed your belly with many sins."
3 And eight verses down:
4 "To the cruel men, an empire is no good, except to spread their
5 shame before the world. A savage mind and a poisoned temper as a wild
6 boar, not a human being. He whose law is written by his cudgel leaves
7 behind stench of inhumanity."
8 Are these positions of Bishop Danilo known among our people?
9 A. Yes, especially the last two verses. The Serbian people in the
10 area it populates never had a liking for force which is called cudgel
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.
13 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add this page.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us now see one page so we can
15 see how many characters there are. Page 987 [as interpreted] in English.
16 JUDGE KWON: For the record, previous page was page 42 in
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 3987 in English, please. That's
19 the beginning. I don't know the page number in Serbian but we don't
20 really need it.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Please take a look and tell us if these are the characters in
23 this dramatic epic.
24 A. Yes. These are the characters. And I remember a good number of
25 them. And I also recognise the others, because I read
1 "The Mountain Wreath." It was mandatory reading at school. And I had
2 the book in my hands a number of times, only I didn't really study it
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this page.
5 JUDGE KWON: I think this has been already included. Yes.
6 I said page 14 in English.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Then we are done with
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. I would like to continue, as briefly as possible, with what you
11 did in the municipality and based on what you did it.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I would like to have the
13 previous document back on the screens, the one that we saw before this
14 one. Yes.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Now, on the 25th of October, you adopted the decision; right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you said that you did it long before the --
19 A. The instruction.
20 Q. Thank you.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.
22 JUDGE KWON: We already admitted it.
23 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4316, Your Honours.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 65 ter 17479, please.
1 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Can you tell us what this is and when it was adopted.
3 A. It's the statute of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa,
4 which was drafted for the session of the 11th of December, 1991, when the
5 constituent phase was to be completed. We adopted this document based on
6 the constitution and the Law on Municipalities which precisely lays down
7 how this must be done.
8 Q. Thank you.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this.
10 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll receive it.
11 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4317, Your Honours.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
13 17487, please.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. So, material from the session, it says, of the provision Serbian
16 assembly of Bosanska Krupa, and so on.
17 Let's see the following page -- we see -- we note the date here,
18 11 December, 1991.
19 A. Yes. And it must be temporary until the assembly is constituted.
20 Q. So item 3, sub-item (b), on the agenda reads: "Declaration of
21 the Serbian municipality ..."
22 And item 4 reads: "Adoption of the statute."
23 A. Yes.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us see the penultimate page in
25 the Serbian; that's page 8. It says here that -- actually, I need the
1 previous page in Serbian, although it's repeated here too.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. In sub-item (a), it reads that you were elected president of the
4 Executive Board with an absolute majority of voices; right?
5 A. Yes.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] And let's go to the last page in
7 Serbian. And the last-but-one in English.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. It says here that you said your thanks but what I'm really
10 interested in, you say that there should be talks with the Bosanska Krupa
12 Did you declare the whole municipality of Bosanska Krupa the --
13 the Serbian Assembly? Which is which?
14 A. [No interpretation]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please repeat.
16 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Klickovic, could you repeat your answer.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is true that the statute that we
18 saw just now, Article 1, paragraph 1, define the territory of the Serb
19 municipality of Bosanska Krupa. All populated places where exclusively
20 Serbs live are listed there. Although there were enclaves such as Zalin,
21 Potkalinje, and others, we didn't mention those because those were
22 territories where the Bosniak people were living. We did not include
23 them in our territory, not one populated place, not one house that
24 belonged to the Bosniak population at that time.
25 Q. If I understood you correctly - and I'm now looking at the
1 statute - and that's the previous document.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I seek to tender this document.
3 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll receive this.
4 THE REGISTRAR: As Exhibit D4318, Your Honours.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D4317, I'm now looking at
6 Article 1.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Does that mean, sir, that on the right bank of the Una, before
9 the war, or if there hadn't been a war, there would have been parts of
10 the Muslim municipality?
11 A. Yes. That's what we provided for. It's contained in the
12 statute. And also under the agreement with our friends from
13 Bosanska Krupa, we defined that these populated places should be
14 connected to the -- to their municipality of Bosanska Krupa, not to the
15 Serb municipality.
16 Q. Thank you. At that point, before the war, or without the war,
17 did we proclaim the Una to be the border of a Serbian republic that was
18 non-existent at the time?
19 A. No. That was not on anyone's mind. Because Bosanska Krupa had
20 some territories on the left bank of the Una. Ivanska, which is rather a
21 large territory which belonged to the Serbian municipality of
22 Bosanska Krupa, although it was on the left bank of the Una.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us see P2739. Yes.
25 P2739, this is a Prosecution Exhibit. This is from April 1993.
1 It's a report on the work of the municipal assembly and War Presidency
2 from 1st of January, 1992, till 20 April, 1993.
3 Let's go to the next pages. The last paragraph, let's see if
4 it's here. Maybe it's on the next page. The last two lines in the
6 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In the summer of 1991, work on the study on the division of the
8 Bosanska Krupa municipality began and so did the establishment of the
9 Serbian municipality; is that correct?
10 A. [No interpretation]
11 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Let the witness please
12 start over.
13 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Klickovic, could you repeat.
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Slow down, please.
17 A. It is correct. I have already said that in May, in the local
18 communes populated by Serbia -- by Serbs, we conducted a public
19 discussion about the need of setting up a Serbian municipality of
20 Bosanska Krupa, and we got full support. But we had to make a document,
21 a study about the economic justification of the founding of a
22 municipality. That was a legal requirement, and that's what we did.
23 Q. Let us see the -- the fifth page in the Serbian.
24 You were asked about the evacuation and the moving out of people.
25 Was that permanent without the possibility of return? How did you phrase
2 A. Nobody moved out. It can clearly be seen in the order that these
3 were mere evacuations. I don't want to repeat what evacuations are
4 because that is also regulated by international law and by our laws and
5 regulations too.
6 And the very word, "evacuation" means to evacuate for the
7 duration of a war or a limited conflict or until some issues are
8 resolved. Evacuation means that after the resolution of the problem
9 because of which the evacuation was done, the population evacuated is
10 supposed to return.
11 Q. Thank you. Here, in paragraph 2, the war-time Presidency
12 assessed the situation and adopted the only feasible and appropriate
13 decision at the time regarding the Muslim population that remained in
14 enclaves. And it says that:
15 "The Muslims were offered two solutions" --
16 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter cannot see where the accused is
17 reading from.
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, interpreters have difficulty locating
19 the passage.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It's in the middle of the first
21 paragraph in the Serbian language.
22 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. It says Muslims did not surrender their weapons or they refused
24 to do so totally. And it says that they moved out temporarily. And then
25 the second paragraph on this page, the main reason for adopting the
1 decision on the temporary moving out of the population was the physical
2 safety and security of the Muslim people; is that correct Mr. Klickovic?
3 A. Yes, that is correct, because it was our duty as the
4 War Presidency. Every decision, every order that we passed had to be
5 verified by the assembly once it would convene. And that was one such
6 assembly where we had to show all the documents that we had adopted from
7 the very beginning of the conflict until the 20th of April, 1992. All of
8 these decisions that we adopted as the War Presidency were verified by
9 the assembly through this report.
10 Q. Thank you. When it says here "temporary," what does that mean?
11 A. That means while the conflict is still on or until the problem is
12 resolved; the problem due to which the evacuation took place in the first
13 place. So the term "evacuation" was used consistently.
14 Q. Thank you.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 65 ter 19899, could that please be
16 shown to the witness.
17 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
18 Q. While we're waiting, Mr. Klickovic, did you provide accommodation
19 to the Muslims only in the Cazin Krajina or also in your own municipality
20 or elsewhere in Republika Srpska?
21 A. A number of Muslims from these enclaves were staying at Serb
22 houses, a big family from -- a big family of a colonel of the BH army
23 stayed in my house, and then they were also staying in other villages --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the
25 number -- the names of the village. And could the witness, once again,
1 please be asked to speak slowly.
2 JUDGE KWON: No, no, just a second.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Slow down, please.
5 JUDGE KWON: If you could start over again.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] A number of Muslims or, rather,
7 their families from these enclaves stayed for a while, for the sake of
8 their own safety, with their neighbours from Arapusa, from Zalin, from
9 Potkalinje. One family and an active lieutenant-colonel of the BH army
10 from that family stayed in my house because this is a neighbouring
11 village next to Arapusa. Others were staying with my neighbours, the
12 Latinovicis [phoen], the Strbac family, the Plavsici [phoen]. We
13 certainly made it possible for these people to find shelter where they
14 would feel safe, until conditions were created for evacuating them safely
15 and securely. The idea was that all people who were supposed to be
16 evacuated should stay within their own municipality, Bosanska Krupa.
17 However, the sniping on the Una river and the use of mortars sometimes
18 made it impossible to cross the Una river, so then people had to go the
19 other way around through Petrovac or through Ripca [phoen] and sometimes
20 through Sanski Most, too. Many stayed in Sanski Most with their friends,
21 with their in-laws. There were a lot of in-laws. So it wasn't strictly
22 stated that somebody had to go here or there or to a particular place.
23 All of this was recorded, though. When each and every family
24 departed, when they would go to where they wished to go, then a written
25 document had to be sent to the War Presidency by the person who was in
1 charge of safely escorting that family to the place where they had asked
2 to go.
3 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Thank you. Now I'm going to ask you - but please answer very
5 briefly - Arapusa, in whose territory is that where these refugees from
6 Bosanska Krupa were staying from the 23rd of April until the 1st of May?
7 A. Arapusa is deep in the territory of the Serb municipality of
8 Bosanska Krupa. And refugees who left, when -- or, rather, who happened
9 to be there when that part was shelled, they asked, themselves, to leave
10 and to stay in Arapusa because many of them had families there,
11 relatives. They had their own houses. Many of them wanted to be there
12 and that's where they went.
13 Q. Thank you. Just very briefly now, what does this mean that these
14 first five or six were staying with Veljko Tatarevic? And what is the
15 ethnicity of Veljko Tatarevic?
16 A. I think that this is a mistake. Tatarevic, well, I know him
17 personally. It's Veso Tatarevic, I think. This is a family from Krupa
18 that went to him because -- because of the International Red Cross and
19 because of our own Red Cross, we asked for records from this family so
20 that we could take flour, detergent, and then also so that if they need
21 medical assistance, that the doctor could go and see them there, and so
22 on and so forth.
23 Q. Thank you. What about the religions involved --
24 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: Could we have a reference
25 to the names again.
1 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Mira Ogarcina is a Serb. And the
2 other person you mentioned was from a Bosniak/Serb marriage, so they fled
3 because of the operations in Bosanska Krupa from the right bank, and that
4 is where they found their peace and safety, in Arapusa.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My apologies to the interpreters.
6 Aleksandro Pelagic and Mira Ogarcina, are they Serbs or Muslims. Those
7 were the names that I referred to and we have received an answer.
8 Could this be admitted please.
9 JUDGE KWON: Yes we'll receive it.
10 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4319, Your Honours.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we now have 65 ter 20237.
12 I'm sorry, it could be P02737. Well, wait. There is a translation too.
13 The 28th of April, 1992.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. You have a War Presidency in the Serb municipality of
16 Bosanska Krupa; is that right?
17 A. That's right, a War Presidency. This was automatic. It's
18 according to the constitution, Article 283. The War Presidency takes
19 over the powers of the Crisis Staff when a crisis escalates and when
20 people resort to arms. All of that is regulated by law, so this is
21 automatic, that a War Presidency becomes active.
22 Q. Please tell us this now: You issued an order here to evacuate
23 Muslims to Budimlic, Japra, Kamengrad, and Fajtovci. Where are these
24 villages and which entity? I mean at that point in time and which entity
25 where they?
1 A. This was the area of Republika Srpska, the municipality of
2 Sanski Most and part of the municipality of Bosanski Novi, because they
3 had family ties and they had friends there and that's why they wanted to
4 go there. However, in co-operation with the leadership of these
5 municipalities, we made it possible to grant their wishes, to go to
6 Bosanska Krupa, to the left bank, that's what we did. And 80 per cent of
7 them went there, to the left bank.
8 Q. Were they free to stay in Republika Srpska, in these places where
9 they had been evacuated?
10 A. Yes. Some of them stayed on until the end of the war, and some
11 of them are there to this day because they got married and, in the
12 meantime, during the war, they built houses for themselves there and
13 became attached to the area.
14 Q. Thank you. Do you know when I made this decision on establishing
15 War Presidencies in municipalities?
16 A. I cannot remember the date, but I think that it was later,
17 certainly. I cannot remember the date because it's already a bit ...
18 Q. Thank you. It was the 31st of May, 1992.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] For the participants, it is P2607.
20 And now could this document please be admitted. And could
21 another one be called up.
22 JUDGE KWON: It's already in evidence.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh yes, yes, yes. P. Sorry.
24 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Klickovic, why did you decide this before my decision, and on
1 the basis of what?
2 A. You see, according to the constitution of the
3 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1974 and the constitutional
4 amendments from 1976, 1989, and 1990, it was spelled out very precisely
5 what a War Presidency should be. So that is not only a legal obligation,
6 it is also a constitutional category, and I didn't need orders from
7 anyone to do this. Once the conflict broke out in the Una area, I
8 activated the War Presidency because that is the only way in which I
9 could observe regulations of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia
10 that still existed at the time and also I am observing the regulations of
11 the Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina that still existed too.
12 Q. Thank you. At that time, did you have any contact with the
13 government in Pale?
14 A. We did. But, really, as for practical solutions, I couldn't get
15 anything from that government because, I mean, well, probably they were
16 operating among these masses of regulations and they couldn't really find
17 their way, so I did not find it necessary to contact them.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 1042, that would be the 65 ter
20 number that I would like the witness to see now.
21 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. Can you explain this to us? We have the English version too. On
23 the 24th of April, there's a War Presidency. And now you're issuing an
24 order here to destroy bridges. Can you tell us why this decision was
25 made and what did you expect on these bridges?
1 A. Let us clarify this dilemma once and for all. The War Presidency
2 of the Serb municipality of Bosanska Krupa started operating on the
3 21st of April, 1992, during a night when an attack took place. It was
4 the police, the reserve force of the Muslim police that attacked Serbs in
5 Arapusa. So that was the moment when the War Presidency was activated.
6 This order is clear because we had received intelligence to the effect
7 that in the area of the Cazin Krajina 16 territorial detachments were
8 equipped and armed, so it was 16:1. That was the ratio. And that
9 required full caution on the part of the War Presidency in order to
10 protect civilians in the territory. That is why we issued this order as
11 the civilian authority there to a military unit, to the commander of the
12 1st Krajina Brigade, either to protect the bridges or to destroy them, if
13 they cannot protect them. However, it is clearly stated here that the
14 decision is in their hands because we cannot issue a direct order. We
15 can just convey an order to the command but they may or may not carry it
17 Q. Thank you. Is this an offensive or a defensive measure from your
18 point of view?
19 A. It is defensive and protective, and it is in accordance with the
20 laws on defence and protection of one's territory that were in force at
21 the time. Now that we're on the subject, may I add that this was not
22 carried out because the assessment of the military was different.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can this be admitted now.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4320, Your Honours.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. We saw that you had recommended co-operation talks and
4 negotiations in 1991 and agreements with the Muslim municipality of
5 Bosanska Krupa. Once the war broke out, what was your position regarding
6 contacts and communications? Did you address the Muslim people?
7 A. Yes. I behaved in a certain way while the joint authorities
8 existed in 1991, and I tried to keep that up, and I wanted to alleviate
9 the situation in order to preserve the population and materiel resources.
10 I had telephone contacts with the president of the Municipal Assembly of
11 Bosanska Krupa, Mehmed Ahic [phoen]. I also contacted other people,
12 Ferid Sertovic. We also tried through telephone contacts and through
13 letters to reach agreement to the effect that without a particular need
14 not to cross from one side to the other, not to have any torchings, and
15 so on and so forth, and I think that I said on the local radio, the Serb
16 municipality of Bosanska Krupa, I addressed our Muslim neighbours and I
17 had lived amongst them until then. I said that it was pointless for us
18 to resolve problems that have to be resolved by the international
19 community and that we're just pawns there, that somebody is pushing into
20 a conflict.
21 Q. Thank you.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please be shown
23 65 ter 18648. We need the first three pages. 18428. 18428.
24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes, that is correct. This is a
25 document that I sent in written form after appearing at the local radio
1 station to all the presidents of the working Presidencies in the
2 municipalities on the left bank of the Una river. We knew each other
3 personally, we more or less thought the same thing, but we were not able
4 to prevent what happened.
5 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Thank you.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we see the next page, please.
8 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. We can see that this is an appeal --
10 THE ACCUSED: No, no, this is not the same. No, in -- in
11 English, this is not the same. Maybe it's not translated.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. I'm going to take you through this.
14 On the first page, you announce this appeal, and then this is the
15 actual appeal.
16 A. The contents. The contents.
17 Q. And, here, in the second paragraph, you said that they rejected
18 any peaceful agreement.
19 In the third paragraph, you say that you offered 120 square
20 kilometres of territory to them on the right bank and that they did not
21 want that but that they wanted everything, and they wanted the Serb
23 And then down there, in the last paragraph, you say: "Allow
24 extremists and ideologists of such ideas to go to the first fighting
25 ranks and let them go to attack Serbs in Serb territories" --
1 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not catch the last part of
2 the question.
3 JUDGE KWON: Just a second. Let's clarify with the document
5 What page?
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is not the English version.
7 This is not the same document in English. It's not the right document.
8 In the Serbian, it's the appeal to the Muslim people of
9 Bosanska Krupa and the Cazin Krajina.
10 I don't know -- I can see that the first page is translated. I'm
11 not sure about page 2 and 3, however.
12 JUDGE KWON: The first page was identical with the Exhibit P6664.
13 That was my question. Which was shown during Ms. Gustafson's
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] This is possible. But this is a
16 collection of 61 pages. The first document without the second and the
17 third page is not clear. The first page is not clear without the second
18 and the third page. Because, on the first page, it says that this is the
19 cover letter for the appeal.
20 JUDGE KWON: Yes, Ms. Gustafson.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: I don't think that's correct. The first page is
22 a stand-alone order. I -- I am unable to -- obviously the second page is
23 in B/C/S, but it doesn't -- I see no apparent link between the two.
24 There's no reference on the first page to some kind of explanation. So I
25 think this is something that, if that's Mr. Karadzic's position,
1 [Overlapping speakers] ...
2 JUDGE KWON: Why don't we show the first page. The B/C/S first
3 page is say it is sometime in June; but the English page say it is May.
4 So -- and -- while B/C/S is of some 60 pages but English has only 11
6 MS. GUSTAFSON: You're correct --
7 JUDGE KWON: So it means we do not have full translation.
8 MS. GUSTAFSON: These are different documents, clearly. You're
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It says here clearly: "We are
11 attaching the appeal addressed to the Muslim people of your
12 municipalities," so on and so forth.
13 And then the second and the third page are the actual appeal.
14 Could we look at the third page, please.
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. It says here in the first paragraph:
17 "The Serbian people of Podgrmec, never even thought of conquering
18 and attacking the Muslim people on the right bank of the Una and not even
19 mentioning the left bank of the Una, and they did not begin the conflict
20 nor can they be blamed for it either. The Serbian people do not need
21 Otoka Pistajlina [phoen], Jeserski Buzim [phoen], or a single foot of
22 land inhabited by Muslims."
23 And then the end of the third paragraph:
24 "Organise life over there. Don't allow your extremists to make
25 provocations. And you can be sure that the Serbs across the Una will not
1 fire a single bullet?"
2 Was this your position, and how does this activity of yours refer
3 to the -- or relate to the activity of the board of the Serbian
4 Democratic Party?
5 A. Yes, this was in according with the policy --
6 JUDGE KWON: [Previous translation continues] ... only amazed by
7 the talent of the interpreters.
8 Please put a pause between the question and your answer.
9 Could you start over again.
10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will start from the end.
11 This was the political position and the political principle of
12 the SDS in the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. This was our
13 position, too, in regard to the relations at the local level. We really
14 did believe this. This is what we did, and this is how we behaved.
15 These words that I signed as the president of the War Presidency were
16 also backed by the municipal assembly, by the SDS Municipal Board, by the
17 command structure of the TO brigade at the time, which was part of the
18 armed forces of Yugoslavia. All we wanted was to have no shooting. We
19 didn't want people die in vain. We did not want materiel goods to be
20 destroyed. We wanted the problem to be resolved where it was supposed to
21 be resolved. Because that idea did not come either from the left or the
22 right bank of the Una or the Podgrmecija. We kept to these ideas. That
23 is the real truth.
24 And a month and a half after this appeal, it was very quiet on
25 both banks of the Una river. Everybody went about their regular daily
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Thank you.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we please -- we would like to
5 tender these three pages from this document. They can be MFI'd if there
6 is -- while the translation is pending.
7 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll do so.
8 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D4321, Your Honours.
9 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Sir, you were asked and you also talked about the departures of
11 people. You said that you provided an escort.
12 Can we look at page 13 now from the same document.
13 Sir, this is the 29th of April. Are you able to tell us what was
14 the assignment given to this policeman, Radomir Drobac?
15 Since there is no translation, could you please read all of it,
16 but can you just read slowly.
17 A. "Pass for policeman, Radomir Drobac, individual,
18 Muharem Causevic, Fuad Dzigunovic, and Esad Hasanovic. The above persons
19 are permitted to move to the municipality of Bosanski Novi via Rujiska,
20 Agici in order to provide accommodation for the evacuation of the Muslim
21 population from Arapusa. President."
22 And then this is my signature. I signed the document.
23 Q. Thank you.
24 A. The intention was that every person that was moving in the depth
25 of the territory populated exclusively by the Serbian people and where
1 there were some considerable tensions and problems already at that time,
2 are accompanied by an official from the Serb side who would guarantee
3 their security with their own lives and would not permit any kind of
4 abuse or insults or, God forbid, any kind of attack directed at such
5 persons. Here specifically these three prominent people from Arapusa,
6 Bosanska Krupa, and the third one, Hasanovic, was also from Arapusa, were
7 going by themselves to find accommodation in the Japra river valley in
8 Agici in the direction of the town of Blagaj.
9 Q. And the territory in the Japra valley was under the control of
10 which forces?
11 A. That belonged to the area of the Serbian Republic of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which was later Republika Srpska.
13 Q. Mr. Klickovic, does this constitute persecution and ethnic
15 A. Well, ethnic cleansing and persecution are committed in a
16 different way. It's known how this is done. There is no agreement
17 sought with anybody, no protocols are made, nor are people allowed to
18 look for themselves how they would leave and in which conditions. We all
19 had to provide fuel and transport for evacuation. We will to provide
20 meals for on the way, medical service, escort, doctors, and so on. This
21 is something that does not feature in a -- an expulsion. We saw how this
22 looked when Dudakovic's people came to that territory --
23 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter did not hear the time-period.
24 And could the accused please repeat his question.
25 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, could you repeat your question. In
1 particular, the last part.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could we tendered this page, 13,
3 from this document, please. It can be MFI'd or added to the previous
5 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll add this to the -- Exhibit D4321, which
6 was marked for identification.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you. Could we please look at
8 page 29 of the same document. This was the 29th of April that we just
9 looked at, and now I would like to look at this document dated the 30th
10 of April.
11 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Could you please introduce the document? Could you tell us what
13 it means.
14 A. This is a document drafted as a consequence of the visit of this
15 team and these people that we had in the previous pass -- pass, together
16 with the president of the Assembly of the local community of Donji Agici.
17 They reached an agreement that these 500 persons, estimated number, be
18 temporarily accommodated in this area, which was fairly close to Arapusa
19 from they were -- from where they were supposed to come from.
20 So this is a certificate saying that they went, they reached this
21 agreement down there, and then returned to Arapusa, to our area.
22 Q. And the president of the local community, which ethnicity did he
23 belong to? And who was the secretary? Who are the people who confirmed
24 that these 500 persons would be received?
25 A. These are two persons that I knew personally, Sifet Bajraktarevic
1 and Himzo Alijagic. They were people who were there during that other
2 system and, at this time, who were at the head of the local commune which
3 was inhabited by a majority Muslim or Bosniak population.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could I tender page 29, please.
5 JUDGE KWON: This will be added and marked for identification.
6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. You were asked who was forbidden from returning to
9 Bosanska Krupa. Were just regular people forbidden from returning so
10 that they would not be persecuted?
11 JUDGE KWON: Just ask who were forbidden.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Who was forbidden from returning to Bosanska Krupa?
14 Serbian Krupa.
15 A. There is a decision by the Municipal Assembly of the Serbian
16 municipality of Bosanska Krupa, which lists those who are not permitted
17 to return to the territory of the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa,
18 or, better said, to the left bank of the Una -- actually, the right bank
19 of the Una. This was all of those people who were found on lists as
20 members of units of the Patriotic League, members of the Green Berets,
21 and members of units, paramilitary units, that were already established
22 at that time in the area of the Cazin Krajina and a number of other
23 places. This was referred to in a decision.
24 I don't know if there were any other categories. I cannot
25 remember that precisely, but this was a decision by the Serbian
1 municipality of Bosanska Krupa.
2 Q. Well, I'm afraid that they did not manage to note the names of
3 these groups --
4 THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter asks that the names of the
5 groups be repeated, as the speakers were overlapping.
6 JUDGE KWON: If you could repeat the names of these groups.
7 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Members of paramilitary groups from
8 the area of Cazin Krajina, who were from our areas. Gazije,
9 Dzamijski Golubovi, Sarganovci, and others.
10 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. Very well. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Can we show the witness
13 65 ter 6692, please.
14 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Sir, can you tell us -- well, you mentioned a decision earlier.
16 Is this the decision that you were referring to?
17 A. Yes, I think that that's that decision. I have already said that
18 I don't recall the contents, but I do recall the decision, when it was
19 adopted and what was the reason why the decision was adopted. It also
20 says here members of the Party for Democratic Action, members of
21 paramilitary formations, other enemy -- military members, and so on.
22 Q. Thank you.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like to tender this
24 document, please.
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes.
1 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4322, Your Honours.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Please tell us if there were any Serbs who were not permitted to
4 return during the war?
5 A. Yes. And I think that such a decision of the assembly of the
6 Serbian municipality is in existence. I signed it personally, and the
7 persons are listed there. I think they are termed deserters. They put
8 their families away before the conflict and their property, and they are
9 mentioned in that decision. It exists in my file. And lest I paraphrase
10 it, it might be best to procure it.
11 Q. Thank you.
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could the witness please, again, be
13 shown document 18428, page 1. Page 61. 18428. The Serbian variant will
15 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Is this the decision you mean?
17 A. Yes, this is it. And I think that it was adopted at the same
18 session. And the categories are listed here, the categories of persons
19 who are not permitted to return and against whom measures will be taken,
20 if they do, because they committed offences against laws and regulations
21 because they didn't respond to call -- call-ups, and so on.
22 Q. Please read out the first two lines.
23 A. "All citizens of Serbian ethnicity who did not respond or return
24 to the call-up of the War Presidency of the Serbian municipality of
25 Bosanska Krupa by 1 June 1992, and those who left the Serbian
1 municipality of Bosanska Krupa after that or extended their stay as
2 approved by the authorities, are banned from returning to the Serb
3 municipality of Bosanska Krupa unless they report to the authorities in
4 charge by 1 October 1992."
5 Q. [No interpretation]
6 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat his question.
7 JUDGE KWON: You overlapped with the interpretation. Could you
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Could this be added, attached to
10 the multi-page document that we saw before.
11 JUDGE KWON: Having seen the date of this document, I need to
12 understand the nature of this compilation.
13 Can we see the first page of this document.
14 Mr. Klickovic, could you tell us what this document is about?
15 It's sent to some municipal president of -- of several municipalities.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes. This is the cover letter that
17 was sent with the document that I, as president of the Serbian
18 municipality of Bosanska Krupa, sent --
19 JUDGE KWON: So, just a second. Cover -- cover letter of --
20 which covers next two pages or all of them?
21 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's a letter that accompanies the
22 following two pages that have to do with the appeal. The appeal has two
23 or three more pages.
24 JUDGE KWON: Can we see the last page of this document.
25 Last page of this document. Page is 61.
1 So this is dated as August. So this is a totally independent
2 document from what we -- from the first page?
3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I cannot tell how the Defence
4 compiled these documents, but that document is independent from this one.
5 This is -- that one is an appeal, and these are decisions taken by the
6 assembly, that were taken during the relevant period.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Your Excellencies, if I may
8 explain. This is a collection of documents. They are all independent.
9 The first three pages and the 13th and the 29th and then the 61st.
10 Perhaps we should attribute separate numbers. That might be a better
12 JUDGE KWON: We will do so. We'll assign a separate MFI number
13 for page 13 and this page 61.
14 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D4323, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: No, no, no. Page 13 will be assigned as MFI D --
16 could you repeat the number.
17 THE REGISTRAR: That's MFI D4321.
18 JUDGE KWON: And page 21.
19 THE REGISTRAR: That will be Exhibit D4323.
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 29, Excellency.
21 JUDGE KWON: Very well.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] 29.
23 JUDGE KWON: And 61, this one?
24 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit D4324, Your Honours.
25 JUDGE KWON: Thank you.
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Thank you.
2 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Klickovic, my last question, hopefully.
4 You said that all decisions that you implemented, as well as what
5 you knew about the central bodies of both the party and the republic were
6 based on the law. You kindly brought a collection of laws and
7 regulations from the area of All People's Defence; right?
8 A. Yes. It's a collection of all laws and regulations that
9 regulated matters from the level of the republic, down to the level of
10 local communes.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us see D8895, please.
12 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is this the title page of that collection of laws and
14 regulations, pertaining to All People's Defence with explanations?
15 A. Yes. It concludes all instructions, orders, conclusions and
16 everything else that belongs in a collection of laws and regulations
17 meant to be applied in practice.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Let us turn to page 2.
19 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Article 386. Can you tell us what socio-political organisations
21 from top to -- down to grassroots are?
22 This is an article from what law, do you remember?
23 A. This is an article of the Law on All People's Defence of the
24 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina from 1984.
25 It was drafted based on the Law on All People's Defence of the
1 Socialist Federative Republic of Yugoslavia from 1982, which was the
2 basic legal act.
3 Q. Thank you. Can you now tell us what socio-political communities
4 are? From the top down to grassroots, what socio-political organisations
5 are? What are communities on the one hand, and what are organisations on
6 the other? Or maybe read out this preamble.
7 A. I can tell you. The communities are territory and functional
8 units, and depending on the level, federal, republican, municipal, down
9 to local commune level; whereas, socio-political organisations at that
10 time were organisations in the Socialist Federative Republic of
11 Yugoslavia, and there were five: The League of Communists, the socialist
12 front, the youth, the unions and the Subnor. Committees of interest are
13 something of else. They are organised by branches and they are actually
14 based on interest.
15 Q. Thank you. Can you tell us where the SDS would belong?
16 A. The SDS is a socio-political organisation, and in this first
17 phase, I would sooner compare it to the socialist alliance of the working
18 people, which is a -- something like a people's front, although based on
19 its programme it can be qualified as a political organisation. Just like
20 the HDZ and the SDA, they could fall under the League of Communists, as
21 far as its place in the system is concerned.
22 Q. Thank you. Please read out Article 2, paragraph 2 -- actually,
23 I'll read the preamble:
24 "In accordance with this law, own preparations for
25 All People's Defence of the organs of socio-political communities,
1 self-management organisations, and community socio-political
2 organisations and social organisations are: 1, preparations for the
3 manufacture and for services, as well as other preparations for
4 functioning during a war; 2, the organisation, arming, equipping, and
5 training of staffs, units and institutions of Territorial Defence and
6 units and staffs of civil defence."
7 And it continues, but I needn't read it all out. Can I -- can we
8 see the following page, please, up to Article 387.
9 Can you tell us the significance -- what the significance of this
10 law was for the behaviour of the party, the municipality, or the local
11 commune, in war-time conditions?
12 A. This was the basic principle, according to which we had to act at
13 the time. It was binding on everyone, no matter who you belonged to, the
14 Serbian, the Bosniak, or the Croatian people, because this was a law
15 based on a federal law, and it was binding on all entities in the
16 Socialist Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
17 Since the Yugoslav People's Army became the defence armed forces
18 under this law in 1982, it loses all offensive or aggressive power, and
19 from then on, it no longer had offensive or aggressive activities as part
20 of its doctrine.
21 In order for the people and all entities to be safe, they were
22 enabled to, in case of danger, organise, prepare, equip, and arm a unit
23 or formation or a group to defend them, even if they were as few as five
24 houses or a neighbourhood. In our case, there was no need for that
25 because the Serbs were members of the armed forces and, hence, they
1 had -- had a right to be -- to arm themselves to -- for defence. The
2 territory -- or, rather, the Serbian municipality of Bosanska Krupa was
3 owned [as interpreted] by the Federal Secretariat of All People's Defence
4 pursuant to its order of the 30th of December, 1992, signed by
5 General Veljko Kadijevic, who was federal secretary. He issued an order
6 to General Kukanjac to arm the territorial brigade of the Serbian
7 municipality of Bosanska Krupa under the brigade rule of the Yugoslav
8 People's Army because it -- or, rather, for it to be part of the armed
9 forces of Yugoslavia.
10 Q. Thank you.
11 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Excellencies, I seek to tender
12 Articles 385, 386, 387, 388, 389, 390 and 391, to be marked for
14 JUDGE KWON: Ms. Gustafson.
15 MS. GUSTAFSON: I have no objection to them being marked. I'm
16 struggling to see the relevance of this 1982 law, but I'll look at it
17 when it's translated.
18 MR. KARADZIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Klickovic, was this law in force in 1992?
20 A. Yes. This law was in force in 1992, not even in 1993 it was
21 annulled either by the Presidency of Bosnia-Herzegovina or -- nor by the
22 Serbian Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. It was the only law that was in
23 force at the time when the conflict began, when the war broke out. I
24 think that I even included an order from President Izetbegovic from June,
25 I think, saying that these laws were to govern the activities of the
1 Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
2 Q. Thank you. I have no more questions.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I would like this to be marked for
5 JUDGE KWON: So you have no objection as to marking for
6 identification those articles that were not discussed with this witness?
7 MS. GUSTAFSON: No. Again, I'll look at the
8 document [Overlapping speakers] ...
9 JUDGE KWON: Very well. We'll mark it for identification.
10 THE REGISTRAR: As MFI D4326. And, Your Honours, just to note,
11 65 ter 18428, page 13 thereof, will be MFI D4325.
12 JUDGE KWON: Yes. Thank you.
13 That concludes your evidence, Mr. Klickovic.
14 MS. GUSTAFSON: I apologise, Your Honours.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes, you have some --
16 MS. GUSTAFSON: With your leave, I would like to spend about
17 three or four minutes on one discrete topic that arose in the re-direct
18 which was in relation to D4319, the list of Muslim refugees accommodated
19 in Arapusa. Thank you.
20 JUDGE KWON: Very well. Please continue.
21 MS. GUSTAFSON: If we could have D4319 on the screen, please.
22 Further cross-examination by Ms. Gustafson:
23 Q. Mr. Klickovic, this was -- this was a document you looked at a
24 few minutes ago, a list of refugees from Bosanska Krupa accommodated in
25 Arapusa between 23 April and 1st of May, 1992. And you explained that
1 these were Muslims accommodated deep in the territory of the Serb
2 municipality of Bosanska Krupa.
3 Now, Arapusa is one of the villages that you ordered the Muslim
4 population to be evacuated from on the 28th April, 1992, in P2737. So
5 the reason these people were accommodated only until the
6 1st of May, 1992, is that they were evacuated in accordance with your
7 order of the 28th of April; correct?
8 A. First of all, you didn't understand my explanation of this list.
9 Asked by the accused, I said that the inhabits of Arapusa, specifically
10 Arapusa, were billeted at Donji Petrovic, Osredak, with their neighbours,
11 because they were afraid of raids and vengeance.
12 When I was shown this specific list, I said that these were
13 refugees or, rather, people who were evacuated during the conflicts
14 through Jasenica to Arapusa, and they found accommodation with relatives,
15 friends, or other citizens at Arapusa, and that is an exclusively Muslim
16 village. And they were put there to receive assistance from the
17 Red Cross and medical protection.
18 I did not say that these people were billeted with Serbian
19 families. We didn't understand each other. These people were -- found
20 accommodation at Arapusa with their friends, acquaintances, relatives,
21 and some of them even had their own houses at Arapusa.
22 Q. Okay. But you didn't answer my question which was: These people
23 were then further evacuated out of Arapusa to the left bank in accordance
24 with your order of the 28th of April, 1992; right?
25 A. That's right. Nobody could plan when there would be an all-out
1 attack, a conflict, and when there would be an evacuation. When they
2 were put up in Arapusa, the plan was that they would stay on longer.
3 However, when these problems cropped up, and together with the people
4 from Arapusa, they went to the territory towards the left bank of the
5 Una. Some stayed in Kamengrad, Fajtovci, in these places right on the
6 border of the Serb municipality of Bosanska Krupa. Some went towards
7 Agici, Suvaca, and other places; yet others went straight to the
8 Cazin Krajina.
9 Q. And a few months later at the end of October 1992, the village
10 Arapusa was officially renamed Srednji Petrovici - and, for the record,
11 that is recorded in the 21st Assembly Session minutes, P1468 - right?
12 A. Yes, that's right. That was a decision passed by the assembly
13 and I insisted on changing that name because that used to be called
14 Srednji Petrovici. So if we go back to our history and tradition,
15 Srednji Petrovici was the name of that village. However, who knows who
16 settled there very early on. Turks, Arabs. The village was re-named
17 Arapusa. And then Serbs who had fled from the left bank of the Una to
18 the right bank fled there and they asked for the name to be changed
19 because the name Arapusa was something that reminded them of Arabs,
20 something similar to that.
21 Q. And that's because the root of Arapusa, "Arap," is the word for
22 "Arab"; right?
23 A. I don't know what was in their minds --
24 Q. Mr. Klickovic --
25 A. -- and what made them ask for this change.
1 Q. This is very simple question: The root of the village name
2 Arapusa is the word "Arap," which means "Arab"; correct?
3 A. Maybe yes; maybe no. I don't know. I don't know the origin of
4 this word. It's very hard for me to give a direct answer, and I think
5 that we are here in order to establish the truth. Is this not a quiz
6 show to give yes and no answers.
7 Q. It's your language, Mr. Klickovic. Does the word "Arap" mean
8 "Arab" or not?
9 A. This is an ordinary word. It's ordinary vocabulary, but I don't
10 want to say anything else.
11 Q. Given that it is ordinary vocabulary, perhaps you could tell the
12 Chamber whether the word "Arap" in B/C/S means "Arab"?
13 A. I think so.
14 Q. [Microphone not activated] and conversely, the name Petrovic is a
15 common Serb surname. So renaming this village Srednji Petrovici, in
16 other words middle Petrovici, connotes a Serb village, doesn't it?
17 A. Exactly. Because at the time it was only Serbs who lived there.
18 Q. Thank you.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] May I? Just briefly. On the basis
20 of this cross --
21 JUDGE KWON: About what? About -- about the renaming?
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, no. No. The fate and rights
23 of those -- those ...
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE KWON: Yes, just one question.
1 Further re-examination by Mr. Karadzic:
2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Klickovic, these people who were evacuated,
3 did they have the right to go back to their homes once the right
4 conditions were created? Was that stated explicitly?
5 A. There is an evident example. We kept records of everything that
6 had stayed behind that the Bosniak Muslims left behind so that once --
7 once these people got -- came back, they could get everything back or get
8 compensation for their land and livestock, and so on. We handed all of
9 those records to them, too. So once they came back to the area, they
10 would know what they should ask for. So there was maximum protection of
11 persons and property. I am proud of the fact that we did not allow
12 anyone or anything to suffer any adverse consequences, and after all,
13 this is recognition that I have received in that area to this day.
14 Q. [No interpretation]
15 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's note: We did not hear the
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] D135 --
18 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, I said one question.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well it's within that question,
20 this question. Just to see how it was regulated.
21 [Trial Chamber confers]
22 JUDGE KWON: The Chamber will not allow it.
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Then for the
24 participants, can I just say on page 2 of that document it is written
25 that the command --
1 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Karadzic, do not use your time in that manner.
2 You can raise it in your closing argument.
3 Mr. Klickovic, that concludes your evidence. On behalf of the
4 Chamber, I would like to thank you for your coming to The Hague to give
5 it. You are now free to go.
6 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you.
7 [The witness withdrew]
8 JUDGE KWON: Mr. Robinson, Mr. Karadzic, the Chamber is seized of
9 your motion asking for an adjournment of two weeks between the conclusion
10 of other evidence and the start of Mr. Karadzic's own testimony. And the
11 Chamber will consider the issue and come back to it as soon as
13 But before doing so, I would like to know how much time do you
14 envisage for Mr. Karadzic's own testimony?
15 MR. ROBINSON: Mr. President, we had allotted 16 hours to that
16 testimony at the time when we believed it would be given in narrative
17 form and we will be requesting some additional time so ...
18 JUDGE KWON: You are aware that Chamber's consistent position was
19 not to allow any extension of Defence time.
20 MR. ROBINSON: Yes --
21 JUDGE KWON: I don't like to see a situation where the Chamber
22 has to stop Mr. Karadzic's own testimony in the middle of his evidence
23 due to the shortage of time.
24 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. We understand that, but we
25 think that there have been circumstances that have arisen which would
1 warrant an extension of the time that you have given us; for example,
2 having to lead witnesses live like Mr. Stanisic and Mr. Jankovic for
3 things completely out of Dr. Karadzic's control, as well as the changing
4 of the mode of his giving testimony, which, as a self-represented accused
5 we believe he has the right not to be questioned by a lawyer if he didn't
6 want to be.
7 So for all of those circumstances, we were planning on making a
8 motion to ask for additional time so that can he complete his testimony
9 and cover all the allegations of the indictment.
10 JUDGE KWON: That will be dealt with when the Chamber is seized
11 of the motion. But speaking for myself, I'm very much concerned about
12 the way in which Mr. Karadzic is spending his time. The previous witness
13 is -- is an example.
14 MR. ROBINSON: I -- I agree.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE KWON: We'll leave it at that. But before we continue,
17 could the Chamber move into private session briefly.
18 [Private session]
9 [Open session]
10 THE REGISTRAR: We're back in open session.
11 JUDGE KWON: Yes. I take it the next witness is a protected
13 MR. ROBINSON: Yes, Mr. President. And his testimony has been
14 ordered to be heard in closed session.
15 JUDGE KWON: Yes. We'll have a break for 45 minutes and resume
16 at 1.23.
17 [Trial Chamber and Registrar confer]
18 JUDGE KWON: Yes, we'll resume in closed session.
19 --- Luncheon recess taken at 12.38 p.m.
20 [Closed session]
11 Pages 46937-46970 redacted. Closed session.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.45 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 13th day of
24 February, 2014, at 9.00 a.m.