Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 15513

1 Wednesday, 1 March 2000

2 [Private session]

3 [The accused entered court]

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13 --- Recess taken at 3.30 p.m.

14 --- On resuming at 3.45 p.m.

15 [Open session]

16 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Let the witness take the

17 declaration.

18 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will

19 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the

20 truth.

21 WITNESS: APOLLONIA BOS

22 JUDGE MAY: Take a seat, please.

23 Examined by Mr. Nice:

24 Q. Tell us your full name, please.

25 A. Apollonia Adriana Bos.

Page 15599

1 Q. How many years have you been at the Tribunal

2 as an investigator?

3 A. Almost five years.

4 Q. Before that, in which police force did you

5 work?

6 A. I worked in the Dutch police force for more

7 than 20 years.

8 Q. At the time that you joined the Tribunal --

9 THE INTERPRETER: Would the witness please

10 speak into the microphone. She cannot be heard in the

11 booth.

12 JUDGE MAY: There is a request by the

13 interpreters if you could speak into the microphone,

14 please.

15 A. Sorry. Police inspector.

16 Q. And I think that in your career, you dealt

17 with serious crimes of all types. Is that correct?

18 A. That is correct, sir.

19 Q. Are you the investigator who took, from the

20 late Midhat Haskic, a statement? And I think that was

21 taken on the 13th of September of 1995.

22 A. Yes, I took that statement.

23 Q. Did you have some handwritten notes made at

24 the time of taking the statement?

25 A. I made some handwritten notes.

Page 15600

1 Q. And have those notes been made available to

2 the Defence, at their request?

3 A. Yes, I did so.

4 Q. At the end of his statement, did Mr. Haskic

5 sign the statement?

6 A. Yes, he signed the statement.

7 Q. It having been read over to him in the

8 Bosnian language, and he signed the passage that says

9 the statement is true, to the best of his knowledge and

10 recollection, and that he gave it voluntarily, being

11 aware that it may be used in legal proceedings before

12 this Tribunal, and indeed saying that he might be

13 called to give evidence?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. Did you form any view, if you can remember,

16 as to his willingness to give evidence?

17 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness speak up,

18 please, or come closer to the microphone?

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. We can see from his statement --

21 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. You're asked to speak

22 up too.

23 MR. NICE:

24 Q. As to his statement, which we've all read, we

25 can see the role he took in events as they unfolded in

Page 15601

1 his village. Can you remember anything about him as a

2 man, what sort of a man he was?

3 A. First of all, he looked like the name he was

4 given, the nickname.

5 Q. And that was?

6 A. Began. And he was to me -- as far as I can

7 judge that, he looked to me and behaved like a strong

8 witness, firm.

9 MR. NICE: Yes. Will you wait there,

10 please.

11 Cross-examined by Mr. Sayers:

12 Q. Good afternoon, Ms. Bos. My name is Stephen

13 Sayers. I'm one of the attorneys representing Dario

14 Kordic.

15 Please forgive me if my questions are a

16 little disjointed today, because we were only told

17 about two hours ago that you were going to be called to

18 testify today. But I'll do my best to make it short

19 and to the point.

20 You say that you have been employed for five

21 years as an investigator with this Tribunal; is that

22 right?

23 A. Almost five years, that's correct, yes.

24 Q. So I take it that Mr. Haskic's interview

25 would have been one of the first interviews that you

Page 15602

1 conducted in your new role as a Tribunal investigator.

2 A. Not the very first, but he was in the first

3 year, yes.

4 Q. How many interviews have you conducted or

5 attended since that time, ma'am? Hundreds?

6 A. Many, but I didn't count them.

7 Q. Right. Would it be in the hundreds? Would

8 that be fair to say?

9 A. Hundreds? It's difficult to say.

10 Q. Do you actually speak Croatian, ma'am?

11 A. No, I don't.

12 Q. Do you have any facility in the language, or

13 would it be fair to say that you basically don't speak

14 a word of it?

15 A. At that moment, I didn't speak any word of

16 it.

17 Q. Right. You were therefore completely

18 dependent upon your interpreter, Aida Jahic; correct?

19 A. That's correct.

20 Q. How long had she worked at the Tribunal at

21 that time in September of 1995?

22 A. Longer than I was. Could be from the

23 beginning of '95 or even '94.

24 Q. You just don't know, though, do you?

25 A. No, I don't.

Page 15603

1 Q. All right. Now, who else was present at this

2 interview, apart from you, the interpreter, Ms. Jahic,

3 and the subject?

4 A. Nobody else.

5 Q. Did you make a tape-recording of the

6 interview?

7 A. No, I didn't.

8 Q. Did you have the interview videotaped?

9 A. No, it was not videotaped.

10 Q. Was anybody taking stenographic notes?

11 A. Nobody there.

12 Q. Just longhand notes in English; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Is English your first language, ma'am?

15 A. No, it is not. It's Dutch.

16 Q. Would it be fair to say that no effort was

17 really made to take what Mr. Haskic was saying down

18 verbatim, in other words, word for word; you were just

19 basically writing down concepts about which he was

20 talking?

21 A. No, that's not true. I normally -- I'm a

22 fast typer, so I can almost type down what is said from

23 the interpreter, of course.

24 Q. All right. Do I take it that you took your

25 notes from the interview and then used those notes

Page 15604

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Page 15605

1 yourself to type up a written statement in English?

2 A. The notes I made while I was typing down. I

3 normally type down while the witness is talking to the

4 interpreter and the interpreter is telling me what he

5 is saying, and I type that down immediately. It's not

6 that I first write it down and then type it up.

7 Q. You made handwritten notes?

8 A. I did, yes, because while I'm taking the

9 statement, questions arise, and I write them down

10 quickly because I don't want to interfere in the actual

11 statements at that time.

12 Q. So do I take it that you're typing on a

13 computer and writing down handwritten notes?

14 A. No, that's not true, but while the

15 interpreter is asking the question and the witness is

16 responding on that question, I have some time to think

17 and type. Sorry, to write.

18 Q. But the point is that you're typing and

19 writing alternately at the time that you're conducting

20 these interviews; is that right?

21 A. Yes, that's right.

22 Q. Why do you need to take down handwritten

23 notes if you're contemporaneously typing down

24 everything that the witness says, ma'am?

25 A. Because I just told you that I have some

Page 15606

1 questions sometimes coming up while the witness is

2 giving the statement, and I want to -- not to forget

3 these questions, so I write them down.

4 Q. All right. So it would be fair to say that

5 there are no drafts of these witness statements?

6 A. No, there are not.

7 Q. Just typing up this witness statement, as you

8 were meeting with the gentleman, after it had been

9 typed up by you, it was then translated by Ms. Jahic to

10 Mr. Haskic, I take it?

11 A. That is correct.

12 Q. He not speaking a word of English, I take it?

13 A. That's correct.

14 Q. And other than your statement and notes,

15 there are no other records in existence of what this

16 gentleman supposedly told the investigators at all?

17 A. That's correct.

18 Q. All right. Were you aware that Mr. Haskic

19 had actually given a statement just a couple of months

20 earlier to the Zenica Security Centre, I think it's

21 called? I may have the wrong name. Let me just make

22 sure I am correct. To the Security Services Centre in

23 Zenica, the Ministry of the Interior, July the 20th,

24 1995, about two months before he spoke to you?

25 A. Not that I can remember. And as I remember

Page 15607

1 now, I don't think we had them.

2 Q. The actual document that the witness was

3 given to sign was in English, right?

4 A. That is correct. Yes.

5 Q. So he just signed it without being able to

6 read it; he having just had it translated to him?

7 A. That is correct, yes.

8 Q. Just so that we are all understanding. You,

9 with your first language as Dutch, type in English, and

10 then Ms. Jahic translated the document to him in

11 Croatian, I take it, and then he signed his name to the

12 English statement. Is that right?

13 A. That is correct. Yes. At the end, the

14 statement is read over completely to the witness.

15 Q. Do you know what kind of training Ms. Jahic

16 had in translation?

17 A. First of all, they are tested. They are

18 tested for the translation. And if that is all right,

19 they are accepted as a translator.

20 Q. And Ms. Jahic's first language, I take it, is

21 Croatian, or is it not?

22 A. It is. As far as I know, yes.

23 Q. Are you sure about that?

24 A. Yes, she is a Bosnian.

25 Q. It's fair to say that Mr. Haskic was never

Page 15608

1 actually shown a Croatian version of his statement?

2 A. That is correct.

3 Q. Do you know if he was literate or was

4 literate, if he could read?

5 A. Given the position he had, I guess he was

6 literate. He could read and write.

7 Q. Well, did you ask him?

8 JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of that?

9 A. Excuse me?

10 JUDGE MAY: What's the relevance of that,

11 Mr. Sayers, whether he was literate or not? Now, I

12 think we've got the point, that you say, of course,

13 that this statement was taken down through an

14 interpreter.

15 MR. SAYERS: I think we have got the point,

16 and I take your point, Your Honour. Let me move on. I

17 want to take as little time as possible here.

18 Q. Do you know whether any documents were made

19 available to the United Nations investigation team

20 prior to the interview with Mr. Haskic about the

21 subjects he was discussing, ma'am?

22 A. No, I don't know that.

23 Q. Do you know, and this is where the literacy

24 point comes up, Your Honour, if I may. Do you know

25 whether this gentleman maintained any kind of a

Page 15609

1 contemporaneous diary or chronicle or journal?

2 A. I don't know.

3 Q. Did you ask him?

4 A. If I had, it would have been in the

5 statement. So I don't think I asked.

6 Q. All right. But it certainly would have been

7 material to you, to know that such a journal or

8 chronicle had been maintained by this gentleman, since

9 he was recounting events that occurred over

10 two-and-a-half years earlier; isn't that right, ma'am?

11 A. Can you repeat the question?

12 Q. It certainly would have been important for

13 you to know, in terms of ensuring the accuracy of what

14 he had to say, it would have been important to know

15 whether he had maintained a chronicle, a journal, a

16 diary, because he was actually recounting from memory

17 events that had occurred two-and-a-half years earlier;

18 is that right?

19 A. That is right, but many people -- many

20 witnesses we spoke with didn't have a diary, and they

21 remembered very well what happened.

22 Q. Right. But the point is you never asked him

23 if he maintained a diary, and he never made one

24 available to you, did he?

25 A. No, he didn't make them available. No.

Page 15610

1 Q. All right. Did you make any effort, during

2 the course of this interview, to determine the language

3 ability of Mr. Haskic, whether he could, in fact, speak

4 English or read it?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. Ma'am, how many other people from

7 the village of Donja Veceriska did you interview during

8 the course of your participation in the investigation

9 of the events of this case?

10 A. As far as I remember, not much more. Maybe

11 it was just him.

12 Q. You never spoke to anyone or interviewed

13 anyone who confirmed the story that he was telling to

14 you? Would that be fair to say?

15 A. That's fair to say, yes.

16 Q. So we are left with this one statement

17 from --

18 JUDGE MAY: That's a matter of comment.

19 That's purely comment.

20 MR. SAYERS: Very well. Your Honour.

21 Q. Now, as I understand it, you conducted the

22 interview, ma'am, on September the 13th, 1995. How

23 long did the interview last?

24 A. A day, starting from 10.00 until somewhere in

25 the afternoon.

Page 15611

1 Q. All right. Mr. Haskic told you that he had

2 supposedly stayed in a bar -- I'm sorry -- a bar in

3 Donja Veceriska for five hours prior to leaving it,

4 five hours on the evening of the 15th of April, 1993.

5 Is that right?

6 A. That is correct.

7 Q. Did you make any effort to determine whether

8 he had consumed a large quantity of alcohol that night

9 or not?

10 A. It's in the statement that he did not drink

11 what was offered to him.

12 Q. Well, it says that he didn't drink everything

13 that was offered to him, doesn't it? It didn't say

14 that he didn't drink at all. So what effort did you

15 make to determine how much he had drunk, to determine

16 whether that had had an effect upon his lucidity, his

17 ability to recall, things of that nature?

18 A. I cannot remember that.

19 Q. All right.

20 A. But as I have been asking about -- you are

21 thinking of Mr. Kordic?

22 Q. In fact, your notes actually reveal, it says,

23 "Kordic drunk," and there's an affirmative tick right

24 next to it. And those are the notes you were taking as

25 Mr. Haskic was actually talking to you; is that right?

Page 15612

1 A. Correct. That was a question.

2 Q. And the affirmative tick --

3 A. That I had done that question.

4 Q. Right. And there is an affirmative tick next

5 to the words "Kordic drunk"?

6 A. That means That I had asked the question.

7 Q. In fact, in the report that was filled out,

8 it says that Mr. Kordic looked, to the witness, like he

9 was sober; correct?

10 A. That's correct.

11 Q. And that's not reflected in your notes

12 anywhere, is it?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Now, do you know anything about the

15 circumstances of Mr. Haskic's health, at the time that

16 he was giving this interview to you?

17 A. Not that I remember.

18 Q. Do you know whether he was on any medication,

19 ma'am?

20 A. Not that I remember.

21 Q. Did you ask him?

22 A. I'm sorry, I don't remember that.

23 Q. Did you ask him if he had consumed any

24 alcoholic drinks within the last 24 hours?

25 A. I didn't ask him that.

Page 15613

1 JUDGE MAY: Did he appear to be under the

2 influence of drink?

3 A. He did not.

4 JUDGE MAY: If he had been under the

5 influence of drink, would you have contemplated

6 interviewing him?

7 A. I don't think so.

8 JUDGE MAY: No. Really, Mr. Sayers, I don't

9 think we are being helped by all of this.

10 MR. SAYERS: Well, just a few final

11 questions, Your Honour. I won't protract this about

12 five minutes.

13 Q. You made no effort to determine the status of

14 Mr. Haskic's health at the time that you interviewed

15 him; is that fair to say?

16 A. I don't remember that I did. No.

17 Q. All right. Now, Mr. Haskic, supposedly, died

18 on June the 4th of 1997. A motion was made in the

19 Blaskic case on December the 18th, 1997 for the

20 admission of that statement into evidence, and you are

21 aware of that, I take it?

22 A. I was not aware of that.

23 Q. You were back in Bosnia, in the area of

24 Vitez, Donja Veceriska, interviewing just a couple of

25 months later, ma'am. Interviewing, I believe, another

Page 15614

1 person who had some involvement with an earlier case, a

2 gentleman by the name of Dragan Papic, on the 5th of

3 February 1998.

4 Was it suggested to you that you should try

5 to contact other people in Donja Veceriska for

6 corroborative information, to find out whether anyone

7 else had heard this raucous party, which apparently

8 this gentleman had attended, on the night of April 15,

9 1993?

10 A. I don't remember that I was suggested that.

11 Q. All right. And were you aware that other

12 people from the village had actually been interviewed

13 by other investigators, such as yourself, in 1995, and

14 that questions had been propounded concerning events in

15 Donja Veceriska on the evening of the 15th of April

16 1993?

17 A. As far as I know, we tried to interview as

18 much -- well, we tried to interview as much people as

19 possible who knew about the events, but I cannot recall

20 how many.

21 Q. I understand. And the last question is, just

22 to repeat my previous question, you do not know

23 whether, in 1995, anyone else from Donja Veceriska, any

24 eyewitness who had lived in that small village, and it

25 is a small village, isn't it? It's a tiny village,

Page 15615

1 right?

2 A. Right.

3 JUDGE MAY: I think we are revving up to the

4 same question again. The answer is, "There is no

5 evidence that we have about it."

6 MR. SAYERS: Thank you. Thank you very much,

7 indeed. No further questions.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, I am sorry.

10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] If I may,

11 Your Honours.

12 Cross-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

13 Q. [Interpretation] I represent the second

14 accused in this case, and my name is Goran Mikulicic.

15 With Mr. Kovacic, I represent Mario Cerkez. Just a few

16 brief questions. You told us at that time you were an

17 investigator with the Prosecutor's office, and,

18 therefore, I presume that the Prosecutor's office asked

19 you to interview Mr. Haskic. Wasn't that so?

20 A. That's correct.

21 Q. Were you told what case it was about, what

22 case it had to do with?

23 A. As I remember, it was about what happened to

24 the Lasva Valley, because that was the case we were

25 investigating.

Page 15616

1 Q. Were you told who were the accused in the

2 case for which you were conducting the interviews, or

3 rather not the accused, but the suspects?

4 A. At that time people were not indicted yet.

5 Of course we talked about people who might be indicted

6 and accused.

7 Q. But formally speaking, there were no

8 indictments yet, were there?

9 A. No, there were no indictments at that time.

10 Q. Tell me, please, technically speaking, who

11 asked, who summoned, who invited Mr. Haskic for the

12 interview that you then conducted?

13 A. The Office of the Prosecutor.

14 Q. And on that occasion did you use the services

15 of the local police at any time during your contact?

16 A. I was not involved in getting the witnesses

17 in the place where we conducted the interviews, so I

18 don't know how Mr. Haskic, the late Mr. Haskic, came to

19 the office.

20 Q. Since you mentioned the place where you

21 interviewed him, could you tell us, where did you

22 conduct that interview, what premises?

23 A. It was the bank in the centre of Zenica.

24 Q. Did you ask Mr. Haskic to take the oath

25 before the interview?

Page 15617

1 A. We don't ask witnesses to take an oath.

2 Q. My last question, madam. Do you remember

3 what Mr. Haskic's profession was, as in a part of the

4 interview it says that he sold newspapers and in

5 another place we read that he was the head of an

6 accounting department. What was his profession; do you

7 know?

8 A. I cannot answer that question. I have to

9 rely on the statement.

10 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you

11 very much. I have no further questions, Your Honours.

12 Re-examined by Mr. Nice:

13 Q. Do you have your notes with you, Ms. Bos?

14 A. Yes, I have with me.

15 Q. You can lay the first sheet of them on the

16 ELMO, please. We'll get the usher to do it for you.

17 He'll probably come and do it.

18 While that's being done, the last question

19 from Mr. Mikulicic, does the statement that you typed

20 begin with the passage about how the witness is there

21 to help the War Crimes Tribunal or to give a statement

22 to the War Crimes Tribunal voluntarily, without threat,

23 understanding the nature of evidence and that he might

24 testify in The Hague; is that how it all begins?

25 A. That is how it all begins.

Page 15618

1 Q. And then it ends in the passage that I read

2 out to you not so very long ago?

3 A. That's correct.

4 Q. You've been asked about your facility with

5 the English language. If we can see from the notes,

6 when you make written notes, what language do you use?

7 A. English.

8 Q. You type at a speed that matches the language

9 of the person you're interviewing, and you type in

10 English?

11 A. [No audible response]

12 Q. The document that we have looked at has a

13 signature of the witness at the end of it, he having

14 had the statement read over to him by the interpreter.

15 Is your typing of a quality that requires you to go

16 away and perfect it, and if so, how long does that

17 take?

18 A. Of course, I have to go through it and

19 correct it to get out the typing mistakes, because I

20 type very quickly.

21 Q. But you can do the whole thing in the same

22 session; you correct it and then --

23 A. I do it in the same session, yes.

24 Q. And you print it and read it to the witness,

25 and he signs it?

Page 15619

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. The word "supposedly" has been used a great

3 deal. Let's deal with the interpreter. Is that an

4 interpreter you've used before or since?

5 A. I think I used her before, but I'm not sure.

6 Q. Any reason to doubt that what she was telling

7 you was an accurate translation of what the witness was

8 telling her?

9 A. I had no doubt that there were problems in

10 the translation, not at all.

11 Q. The way it reads is "no doubt that there were

12 problems." Do you have any doubts as to whether there

13 were problems?

14 A. No.

15 Q. But more materially, this statement contains

16 references to the following topics: To Kordic being

17 related by godfather relationship to someone in the

18 village. Was that something of which you had any

19 earlier knowledge?

20 A. No, I didn't know that, that I remember.

21 Q. There's then the reference to Kordic being in

22 the cafe on the night concerned. Was that something of

23 which you had any earlier knowledge?

24 A. Not that I know, no.

25 Q. There's reference to the passage of

Page 15620

1 communications in written form from the cafe and

2 outside. Did you have any knowledge of that before you

3 went to give evidence -- before you went to take the

4 statement?

5 A. Not that I know, no.

6 Q. So far as you were concerned, where did the

7 information from this statement come from; from the

8 witness?

9 A. From the witness, yes.

10 Q. Let's just look at your notes, because they

11 are now on the ELMO, and it was suggested that they

12 read something different from what they did.

13 The first page we see in English, we've got

14 something like, "How he knows Kordic," and then what

15 does it say after that, "Para 5"? What is that?

16 A. Let me see.

17 Q. If you can interpret it.

18 A. It's a bit difficult here. I think I have

19 to -- I cannot -- I don't know what that is.

20 Q. But, in any event, you've told us that you

21 made notes, and these would be topics covered later.

22 Do we find that the last paragraph of the statement

23 deals with how he knew Kordic?

24 A. That is correct, yes.

25 Q. Let's turn to the next sheet of your notes,

Page 15621

1 as there are two sheets.

2 We see, at the top of the page of notes,

3 three lines down, the passage that you've been asked

4 about by Mr. Sayers, where he three times suggested

5 that the tick beside "Kordic was drunk" meant that you

6 were saying he was drunk. What does that tick mean?

7 A. The tick means that I have asked a question

8 whether he could see or notice Mr. Kordic was drunk.

9 Q. Likewise with the question about uniforms?

10 A. Yes, that's correct, and the weapon.

11 Q. And the rest of your notes we can see;

12 questions halfway down, the number of soldiers,

13 recognising the soldiers, and matters of that sort?

14 A. That's correct.

15 Q. The manner in which you took this statement,

16 is that typical or atypical for this institution?

17 A. I don't know.

18 Q. Was it typical for you?

19 A. It's normally how I take the statements.

20 Q. Is there any practice here of using

21 videotaped interviews of witnesses on a regular basis?

22 A. No, there's no practice on that.

23 Q. Or, indeed, of audiotapes?

24 A. No, there's not.

25 Q. When you're dealing with people, many of whom

Page 15622

1 are recollecting matters of distress, is that something

2 that you usually do or not?

3 A. Yes, that is what we usually do, yes.

4 Q. Do what?

5 A. To deal with people who have gone through

6 stressful situations.

7 Q. Yes. Did this man, to your judgement, have

8 any problems with recollection at all?

9 A. No.

10 MR. NICE: Apart from the fact that it may be

11 appropriate for the notes themselves to be annexed to

12 the statement, that's all I ask of this witness.

13 JUDGE MAY: I shouldn't have thought that was

14 necessary.

15 MR. NICE: So be it.

16 JUDGE MAY: We've clearly got the picture.

17 Ms. Bos, thank you very much for coming.

18 You're free to go.

19 MR. NICE: This side of the courtroom will

20 have to be blinded before she leaves.

21 There are three quick administrative matters

22 I can deal with.

23 First, the Chamber will recall the witness

24 Morsink's document in respect of which the Chamber

25 suggested the use of 94 ter and a formal statement. An

Page 15623

1 appropriate request was made. I believe in this

2 country formal affidavits aren't the norm or aren't

3 available, but a formal statement has been provided in

4 the Dutch language. We have already an informal

5 translation provided by one of my team, and that will

6 be served today and, I hope, will deal with that

7 problem.

8 The second matter relates to witnesses for

9 next week. I have notified the Defence that the

10 witness who it was expected to give evidence by

11 videolink from Zagreb is not now a witness who it is

12 intended to call. There is an issue arising in respect

13 of documents that he would have produced, and I'll come

14 to that separately at a time when I may deal with

15 documents generally.

16 [The witness withdrew]

17 MR. NICE: There is a witness whose prior

18 testimony in another case -- yes, I think that your

19 legal officer thinks that this passage should be dealt

20 with in entirely closed session, so --

21 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Mr. Nice, as quickly as

22 possible. I want to get on to the videos.

23 [Private session]

24 (redacted)

25 (redacted)

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2 [Open session]

3 MR. NICE: -- being prepared from these

4 videos. And again if time permits, we might seek to

5 play that, but that is all.

6 These remain simply appropriate documents to

7 be produced principally for what is said, in part, for

8 of course how Mr. Kordic looks, how he's dressed, where

9 he sits in relation to other people when he so often

10 sits in the middle of the three senior people and is

11 manifestly the spokesman, matters of that sort, but

12 that's it.

13 JUDGE MAY: I don't suppose anybody has

14 counted up the total number of videos on this schedule,

15 how many have been exhibited, and how many are

16 outstanding.

17 MR. NICE: Well, Your Honour, the position is

18 indicated in the right-hand column where the dates are

19 given for those that have been produced formally

20 already. It's about half -- probably a little over

21 half have been produced, and I don't desire, as I've

22 indicated, to do more than produce the balance; not to

23 play them at the moment, subject to the two points I've

24 raised.

25 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll hear what the Defence

Page 15627

1 have got to say. Yes.

2 MR. BROWNING: Thank you. My name is Chris

3 Browning of the law firm of Hunton Williams.

4 Just by way of introduction, I would like to

5 inform the Tribunal that I am from one of the southern

6 offices of Hunton Williams, and please forgive me,

7 because I will speak fairly slow, and my good friend

8 Mr. Stein tells me --

9 JUDGE MAY: You will be congratulated.

10 MR. BROWNING: Well, my good friend Mr. Stein

11 tells me that even though I speak slow, the

12 interpreters still might be perturbed with me because

13 of my southern expressions.

14 Your Honours, with regard to the videos, we

15 have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to sift

16 through the list that we have received. We have

17 received, within the last month, probably six different

18 lists from the Prosecution concerning videos. And of

19 course our biggest problem is the fact that they will

20 list a video and not provide us with a copy or, as more

21 recently, when they sent over a copy of six different

22 videos, it was completely different. What they said we

23 would be getting was completely different, and we just

24 couldn't decipher the material they had told us that

25 they would be providing to us.

Page 15628

1 We are more than willing to work through the

2 various videos. We have tried our best to decipher the

3 information that we've been provided, but the bottom

4 line is, as best we can tell, there are about 33 videos

5 at issue. Of those, there are nine that we simply

6 cannot decipher what they are referring to. There are

7 numerous others that we have received, but without any

8 sort of translation at all, either in -- the original

9 language either being in Bosnian or, in one case,

10 French, and in all of these cases we tried to sift

11 through them. But the attorneys on our team -- I

12 cannot sit through and watch a video in French or

13 Bosnian and make much sense of it.

14 And finally, we would like to point out, with

15 respect to certain videos, there are at least two or

16 three videos that constitute nothing more than

17 statements of witnesses, such as the Nelson Draper

18 video, as well as a video concerning Stupni Do, which

19 is essentially a broadcast seven months after the fact

20 that is a compilation of what various people apparently

21 had to say many months after the events in Stupni Do.

22 We have walked through the Prosecution's

23 list. I am certainly in a position to rattle off, out

24 of their many lists, how many of these videos have been

25 admitted, what the status are, but I recognise that

Page 15629

1 time is short. I just wanted to make sure that the

2 Tribunal's aware we have done everything that we could

3 to work with the Prosecution on this issue.

4 Our biggest beef is we need to see the videos

5 that the Prosecution is trying to use against our

6 client, and preferably see them with the translation,

7 so the attorneys working on this case can realise what

8 we are having to deal with.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, will you depute

10 somebody from your team tomorrow to sit down with the

11 Defence, to make sure that everybody knows precisely

12 what it is is being produced.

13 MR. NICE: Certainly. Indeed, I think we've

14 responded to all their expressed concerns, and there

15 are difficulties with multiple tapes for both sides.

16 But I think that the final transcripts are, in any

17 event, going to be available tomorrow morning, so it

18 should be possible to do what you asked.

19 JUDGE MAY: What we want is, if I may say,

20 is a schedule next week of the videos which are still

21 outstanding. It would be most convenient if it had the

22 Defence comments on it too. But it must be agreed so

23 that everybody knows what it is is being produced in

24 each case, and I think the chief responsibility of that

25 is the Prosecution.

Page 15630

1 MR. NICE: Certainly. Yes, I accept that.

2 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

3 Mr. Browning, no doubt you can assist in that

4 between now and Monday, and try and get the thing into

5 order so we know what it is we are supposed to be

6 ruling on.

7 MR. BROWNING: We certainly will. And thank

8 you so much, Your Honour.

9 JUDGE MAY: And, Mr. Kovacic, perhaps you

10 would like to -- insofar as it affects you, if you

11 could join him.

12 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, thank you, Your Honour.

13 And if I may, I will argue when the time comes, of

14 course, but on the principle of that evidence, not each

15 particular piece of the video material we have been

16 offered, if I may.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

18 MR. NICE: The only other matter we are

19 hoping to deal with this week was these affidavits. I

20 don't know whether there is any prospect of the Chamber

21 sitting tomorrow morning. If not, it will have to be

22 dealt with next week.

23 JUDGE MAY: I think it's a matter which the

24 whole Chamber would have to deal with together. It

25 would seem to me sensible to send the affidavits

Page 15631

1 through again with a schedule as to what they are, and

2 we can at least have a look at them and form a

3 preliminary view. If the Defence wish to put anything

4 into writing on that subject, we'll read it; again,

5 objections, and as you've done before.

6 MR. SAYERS: We'd be happy to do that, Your

7 Honour. When would you like the document to be filed?

8 JUDGE MAY: Well, by next -- Friday, 5.00

9 p.m. this Friday.

10 MR. SAYERS: That's acceptable. Yes.

11 MR. NICE: We have a full week of evidence, I

12 think, next week. Again, the order may have changed a

13 little bit. I'll make sure everybody knows this

14 afternoon.

15 JUDGE MAY: Well, we may have to sit longer

16 next week. We may have to sit Friday afternoon. I

17 hope it will be possible to deal with matters in the

18 usual time. The international armed conflict must be

19 dealt with, and time must be made available for that,

20 as well as some time, it may be, for the videos to be

21 considered.

22 MR. NICE: Yes. And I know that there may be

23 a couple of -- well, as to the ruling that Your Honour

24 has given about exhibits, that's obviously being

25 processed, as it were, straightaway. I know that on

Page 15632

1 one or two exhibit matters, that maybe we will have to

2 reopen, and I think I indicated one of them at the time

3 of the first order in relation to transcripts with the

4 witness who dealt with cultural destruction and matters

5 of that sort. But we'll await next week for that.

6 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Monday, half past

7 nine.

8 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

9 at 4.30 p.m., to be reconvened on

10 Monday, the 6th day of March, 2000

11 at 9.30 a.m.

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