Page 17253
1 Thursday, 13 April 2000
2 [Open session]
3 [The witness entered court]
4 [The accused entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.
7 WITNESS: FILIP FILIPOVOC [Resumed]
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice: [Cont'd]
9 Q. Miro Andric was on Mr. Blaskic's staff in
10 what capacity?
11 A. Miro Andric was a member of the Commission
12 for the Cessation of Hostilities and was appointed in a
13 meeting between Izetbegovic and Boban, at which meeting
14 I was also appointed. And in this capacity, he spent
15 about ten days in this commission, and he was never a
16 member of Blaskic's staff.
17 Q. So if any evidence had been given by Blaskic
18 about his being in the staff, that would be wrong,
19 would it?
20 JUDGE MAY: I think that's a comment.
21 MR. NICE:
22 Q. Can you look at Exhibit 124.1, please. This
23 isn't translated, but you can look at it.
24 Put it on the ELMO, please. We'll get a
25 translation in due course. There are a total of six
Page 17254
1 short documents to be looked at. Put it on the ELMO,
2 please, and then the witness can see it. No. Let the
3 witness look at it, and we'll put it on the ELMO
4 later.
5 This is a document dated June of '92 from
6 Susak in Croatia, dealing with Miro Andric. We see his
7 name there as number 1; correct?
8 A. It is correct that Miro Andric is number 1
9 there.
10 Q. The next document is 127.2, for which we do
11 have a translation. English on the ELMO, please,
12 original for the witness.
13 Immediately following on the first document,
14 this is the 8th of June, an order from a Croatian
15 colonel ordering the dispatch to the southern front for
16 temporary assignment of 14 people, including number 1,
17 the same Miro Andric; correct?
18 A. Yes, the gentleman in question is on this
19 list.
20 Q. The next exhibit, 877.1. This is a document
21 dated the 3rd of May of 1993, and there's now Miro
22 Andric signing over the Herceg-Bosna stamp for Travnik,
23 and this is a report from him in respect of servicemen
24 from the 101st HV Brigade, Croatian soldiers, at the
25 southern front of HZ HB Croatian Community of
Page 17255
1 Herceg-Bosna, pursuant to an order of the Ministry of
2 Defence of Croatia, performing duties as in March, and
3 he names himself as the first of those officers?
4 A. All the documents shown to me do not dispute
5 what I said, that Colonel Andric was never a member of
6 Central Bosnia Operative Zone command, and I already
7 stated that he was in the Commission for Cessation of
8 Hostilities in Central Bosnia.
9 Q. What was he doing, in Central Bosnia, signing
10 over the Travnik stamp, please, if he wasn't working
11 for Blaskic?
12 A. Mr. Cerkez, myself, and Andric, and Delic and
13 Amidza were at Sljivcica, which is above Vitez, and the
14 ABiH brigade commander was there, and we dealt with the
15 cessation of hostility, exchange of prisoners. I
16 remember these details when we were up there at the
17 ceasefire line. I remember that he was down in Stari
18 Vitez, in Mahala, when we worked on releasing the
19 detainees in the cinema hall in the Hotel Vitez. I am
20 telling you specifically what the man was involved in.
21 Q. And the next document -- I haven't got time
22 obviously to debate these matters with the witness --
23 2360.17, please.
24 This is back to the 19th of May, but well
25 within your period of responsibilities, from Croatian
Page 17256
1 General Bobetko, instructing the deployment of a
2 Frankopan Battalion in Central Bosnia under the command
3 of, we see, Zorica, Zulu, whom we heard about
4 yesterday, from then to be directed or ordered by Tole,
5 also whom we heard of yesterday. The clearest evidence
6 of Croatia's involvement; correct?
7 A. It is correct that Zulu was in Bugojno and in
8 Uskoplje.
9 Q. And it's true that Bobetko, for Croatia, was
10 dispatching the battalion to Bugojno?
11 A. That battalion never arrived. And he sent
12 millions of documents, but there were no people, so
13 there was no fighting.
14 Q. The last two documents, first 2381 --
15 JUDGE MAY: The point which is being made and
16 you didn't answer, Major General, is this: Your answer
17 to the question was that Zulu was in Bugojno. What was
18 being put to you by counsel was that it showed Croatian
19 involvement in the war. Now, what is your answer to
20 that? Does it show Croatian involvement or not, and if
21 not, why not?
22 A. Croatian army did not take part in the
23 territory of Central Bosnia.
24 JUDGE MAY: Well, why does it say: "Prepare
25 and send the Frankopan Battalion to Bugojno," signed by
Page 17257
1 a Croatian army general? Now, what does that mean if
2 it doesn't mean that Croatia was involved?
3 A. Your Honour, I know what I know. Perhaps the
4 gentleman did have command. Maybe he had intention to
5 command. I cannot dispute this, but I know what
6 happened on the ground. This battalion, the Frankopan
7 Battalion, never showed up in Central Bosnia, but Zulu
8 did.
9 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
10 MR. NICE:
11 Q. 2381. And this is a document, the 5th of
12 October, 1992, from Blaskic, ordering the submission of
13 data regarding HV officers in your units. And that's
14 sent off to the commanders of various municipal
15 headquarters. I haven't got time, as you appreciate
16 from the timetable that we're working on to debate
17 these matters with you, and that's why I'm putting my
18 questions shortly, and you can answer whatever you
19 like, providing you're happy to live with it.
20 This shows HV officers in Central Bosnia
21 under Blaskic's command; correct?
22 A. There existed people in the HVO who were
23 previously in the Croatian army and in some instances
24 gained certain rank there. It is the question -- the
25 issue here is that if there were such officers, that
Page 17258
1 information about them, the data, be provided.
2 Q. Including whether it's the HV who's paying
3 them or, by implication still the HV -- sorry. Whether
4 it's the HVO who's paying them or, by inference, still
5 the HV. It's as clear as daylight, isn't it, General?
6 A. I know that we received our salaries from the
7 municipality, and I mentioned the amount, 20 to 30
8 German marks, and this was so for all HVO personnel.
9 Whether anyone was receiving salaries from the Croatian
10 army or from Croatia, that I do not know.
11 Q. Exhibit 643. More of the same, General.
12 12th of April, 1993, Blaskic, an order to commanders of
13 all brigades to submit lists of officers of HV army in
14 their units, with name, current duties. Clearest
15 evidence of the continuing involvement of HV officers
16 in Blaskic's command; correct?
17 A. This is proof of constant pressure from the
18 higher command to try to identify people, and if the
19 people were identified, to provide their data. But let
20 me repeat, in Colonel Blaskic's staff in Central Bosnia
21 Operative Zone, they're only local people, and I did
22 not meet anyone who was not from that area or the
23 surrounding areas.
24 So the data requested was a form of pressure
25 on Blaskic to try to find those officers, maybe to
Page 17259
1 remove them. I don't know what the motivation for
2 these orders were, but there were no such people
3 there.
4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I have two questions
5 capable of yes or no answers in light of the
6 timetable. With your leave I'll just ask those two
7 questions and I'll finish, but I'm not in a position to
8 debate any of these answers.
9 Q. General, a British officer called Williams
10 gave evidence, including evidence about you, which was
11 in part favourable as to your attitude, but he says
12 that on the 2nd of February of, and I haven't noted it,
13 I think it's 1993 but it might be --
14 JUDGE MAY: 1994. Williams, 1994?
15 MR. NICE: -- 1994.
16 Q. So the 2nd of February, 1994. At a potential
17 exchange of prisoners in Stari Vitez for humanitarian
18 aid, an exchange across the front line, you were left
19 by Blaskic, who was seen escaping out of the back door
20 of his headquarters. You were left by Blaskic to give
21 a wholly unacceptable and untrue excuse for your
22 refusal, I mean your collective refusal, to allow that
23 exchange of aid for prisoners.
24 Do you accept that you told Williams that the
25 exchange couldn't go ahead and that you'd been left
Page 17260
1 with that unpalatable job by Blaskic?
2 A. I assume that I can recall this meeting,
3 because there were many meetings, the meeting in which
4 I talked with Colonel Williams and others. I cannot
5 recall whether the reason for the meeting was what you
6 mentioned, but I always tried to be transparent with
7 all individuals who were in the Operative Zone,
8 including Colonel Peter Williams, who was a very
9 correct officer and behaved very correctly in the area
10 of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone.
11 Q. In September 1993, you deputised for Blaskic
12 when he was on leave, when Grbavica was attacked. Did
13 you command that attack?
14 A. I took part in commanding and preparation of
15 this operation, but Blaskic was present.
16 MR. NICE: In the time allowed, that's all
17 I've really got an opportunity to ask this witness.
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,
19 Your Honours. The General spent a lot of time giving
20 evidence, and I will be very brief.
21 Re-examined by Mr. Naumovski:
22 Q. I only have a few questions for you,
23 General. First, military negotiations in Sarajevo in
24 late 1992, which were mentioned a lot and in which
25 Mr. Kordic replaced or substituted for
Page 17261
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Page 17262
1 General Blaskic. Would you agree with me that in these
2 meetings, and there were several those, the issues
3 discussed were the free passage or passage through
4 checkpoints controlled by various sides, and it had to
5 do with the normalisation of life in Central Bosnia?
6 A. I can agree with it, but I can agree that
7 that was what was discussed, the passage of the
8 humanitarian aid, international organisations, UNPROFOR
9 columns, and safe passage of people through the
10 confrontation lines.
11 Q. Very well. Just to conclude this area; from
12 what you just said, it would seem that you did not need
13 any specialised military knowledge for people -- of
14 people who were involved in these discussions.
15 A. We said -- it was our judgement that given
16 the issues discussed, that Dario Kordic could
17 successfully could represent our side.
18 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Can I ask the
19 usher to show the general the Exhibit number Z769.
20 Q. It is one of the documents -- General, it is
21 one of the documents that was shown to you. In the
22 last couple of days you were shown a lot of documents,
23 and from your answers, I gather that you never saw any
24 of these documents previously so that you would now
25 recall them.
Page 17263
1 A. I saw all the documents that were submitted
2 to me for the first time.
3 Q. This document was tendered yesterday. This
4 is another document that you saw for the first time,
5 and you said that you didn't even know whether it was
6 authentic or not, but my question relates to something
7 on the last page. If you can just, General, turn to
8 the last page of the Croatian version.
9 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] You can put
10 the English version on the ELMO.
11 Q. And it is going to be the last page where it
12 says -- it's the last page, General. It says: "Other
13 Remarks, 7.7," on the last page, and the interpretation
14 is of some importance here. The way it is written in
15 the Croatian language, Colonel Blaskic says that others
16 are ascribing to him that he was good and so on and so
17 forth. Do you see that sentence?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Do you agree this was not Blaskic's opinion
20 of himself but Blaskic's reference to the opinions of
21 others of him?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And here it is clear that it was Dzemal
24 Merdan who stated this. And could you now move to
25 point 8?
Page 17264
1 A. Yes. Point 8 is even more characteristic.
2 Q. Would you agree with me that General Blaskic
3 promulgates his own opinion and his own view there?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And doesn't he say that they were distracted
6 and they agreed to all, or they're no longer able to
7 control their own units, so now they're agreeing to
8 everything in order to prepare for a new attack from
9 which they would not give up? That is
10 General Blaskic's opinion; correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Thank you. That is enough.
13 Z1477 is a document which we need not put on
14 the ELMO, and this is regarding the decoration for --
15 of King Kresimir IV, with a sash, and we saw it for the
16 first time yesterday. You gave your opinion on it,
17 but, General, are you aware of the fact that Mr. Kordic
18 never received this decoration?
19 A. No, I don't know.
20 Q. Very well. Then we will bring that back
21 later in ...
22 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
23 yesterday we made an objection regarding Exhibit Z134,
24 where the Prosecution was not sure whether it was --
25 which year it was, 1992 or 1993. We checked our
Page 17265
1 documents, and we lodged an objection to it, and I just
2 want the record clear on that point.
3 Q. General, we talked about Miro Andric today,
4 and yesterday, if I remember correctly, Miro Andric was
5 born in Herzegovina.
6 A. From Bijelo Polje near Mostar. That I know.
7 Not only born there but grew up there.
8 Q. In other words, he lived in Herzegovina?
9 A. Yes. He grew up there.
10 Q. He arrived as an HVO officer there, to take
11 part in that commission of which you were also part?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Today you were shown a document, Z -- I
14 believe at 2360.6, and the reference was made to the
15 Frankopan Brigade. Would you agree with me that in May
16 1992, there was fierce fighting with Serbs in
17 Bosnia-Herzegovina, looking at that time frame?
18 A. That was the only fighting there in May of
19 1992.
20 Q. You explained that Bugojno was not part of
21 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone?
22 A. It did belong there in that time frame, but
23 after the reorganisation, it did not.
24 Q. So Bugojno was not part of your Operative
25 Zone when the conflict between the HVO and the ABiH
Page 17266
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Page 17267
1 broke out in Central Bosnia?
2 A. That is correct.
3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
4 that is all, and I would like to thank General
5 Filipovic for his patience. Thank you.
6 JUDGE MAY: Before we move on, you announced
7 an objection to Exhibit 134. That is presumably
8 because the date of 1992 was, in fact, questioned and
9 it's said that it must relate, in fact, to 1993.
10 Well, that is a matter of weight or an
11 interpretation of the document. It doesn't go to its
12 admissibility. But it is a matter, of course, which
13 the Trial Chamber will have to consider in due course
14 and decide what the right date is, whether the date is
15 right.
16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] My apologies,
17 sorry. I just wanted to say that our objection was to
18 the authenticity, because it was not signed. We do not
19 know who actually drafted it, who produced it. That
20 was our additional objection.
21 JUDGE MAY: I see. Well, we ruled on that
22 before, and I note in this case that it's got a stamp,
23 if not a signature.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
Page 17268
1 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I would not like
2 to be involved in that document, but just as a matter
3 of reference, to have it on the same place in the
4 transcript for the practical reasons, it is obvious
5 from the document two other points.
6 The numbers, as they are usually referred by
7 the standard, under the dash there is a year, so that
8 shows that the document is probably from 1993. So the
9 date is probably wrong. And another element: It is
10 addressed to Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade, which did not
11 exist at that date in 1992. It does in '93. So those
12 are the issues of weight of the document, if it is
13 authentic.
14 I just wanted to contribute. Nothing else,
15 Your Honour. I'm not opposing it.
16 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
17 Major General Filipovic, thank you for coming
18 to the Tribunal. You are free to go.
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
20 may I say something?
21 JUDGE MAY: Well, very briefly. We don't
22 usually allow witnesses to say anything.
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I want to thank
24 the Honourable Court for their correctness, the
25 Prosecution and Defence on their correctness. At one
Page 17269
1 point, it was said that I was not speaking the truth.
2 I did not take it personally but as part of the
3 professional procedure. But I would like to thank
4 everyone one more time.
5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
6 [The witness withdrew]
7 MR. NICE: Just before the next witness
8 comes --
9 THE INTERPRETER: Mr. Nice --
10 MR. NICE: [Previous interpretation
11 continues]... doesn't like any interruption in the
12 questioning, if it's avoidable. There are some things
13 I would like to make.
14 One is a correction of an exhibit's number,
15 which was given the number 634 yesterday. It should
16 have been 634.1.
17 The second point was that the very first
18 answer in re-examination of the witness has been
19 recorded on the transcript: "I can agree." In fact,
20 he said, I think, "I can't agree," and then went on to
21 say, "I can agree," with something else. He didn't
22 agree to the totality of what was being put to him,
23 which leads to the third point about which, no doubt,
24 the Chamber will have its own view, and that is the
25 utility of entirely leading questions in
Page 17270
1 re-examination.
2 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, there's no need to
3 comment on that.
4 MR. NICE: Finally, the declaration that was
5 dealt with yesterday in evidence has been before the
6 Defence before. Indeed, it was opened when I opened
7 this case.
8 JUDGE MAY: I think it was a reference to the
9 document which there hadn't been reference to before.
10 Thank you.
11 While the witness is coming in, let me deal
12 with one administrative matter, which is about dates.
13 There will be changes to the calendar inevitably, and
14 the changes in this case are that we shall not sit on
15 the 12th of July -- I'm sorry.
16 [The witness entered court]
17 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness sit down for a
18 moment, while I'm dealing with this.
19 I'll start that again. The 12th of May,
20 we're not sitting.
21 Turning now to June, not July at this stage,
22 the position is this: that during the week of the 5th
23 to the 9th of June, Judge Bennouna has to sit on the
24 Celebici appeal which is being heard that week, and as
25 a result, Judge Robinson and I propose to sit for the
Page 17271
1 first three days of that week under the relevant Rule
2 15 bis for three days. We shall not be sitting on the
3 8th and 9th of June. But to compensate, we will be
4 sitting the next week on the 13th and 14th of June, the
5 12th being a holiday.
6 So 12th of May, not sitting; 8th and 9th, not
7 sitting, but sitting the 13th and 14th.
8 There will be changes in July because of
9 other cases, and there's a question about the date of
10 the Plenary too. But we can't address those until
11 later. We'll let you know as soon as possible.
12 Yes. I'm sorry you've been kept waiting,
13 Mr. Nakic.
14 Yes. Let the witness take the declaration.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly
16 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
17 and nothing but the truth.
18 WITNESS: FRANJO NAKIC
19 [Witness answered through interpreter]
20 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Take a seat.
21 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, if I might take
22 up two short matters before we start the questioning of
23 Brigadier Nakic.
24 On the question of witnesses, Major Gelic
25 made it from Istanbul yesterday. Unfortunately, his
Page 17272
1 baggage didn't accompany him, it appears to be lost, so
2 he is currently engaged in buying some clothing. We
3 hope to be able to complete his proofing tonight and be
4 able to put him on tomorrow, if possible. If that
5 turns out not to be possible, then we have another
6 witness who is ready to testify, so we won't lose court
7 time.
8 Second, there appears to be an error in
9 transcription on page 17228, lines 19 to 20. A witness
10 testified that apparently -- or the transcript says
11 that: "Kordic was concerned with Merdan." The witness
12 said precisely the reverse, and we would like the
13 Translation Unit simply to check that, if possible.
14 Examined by Mr. Sayers:
15 Q. Sorry to detain you, Brigadier Nakic. We
16 have a proofing statement or a summary of your evidence
17 which you have reviewed and signed. Is that correct,
18 sir?
19 A. Yes, it is.
20 Q. And everything in that statement is, to the
21 best of your current knowledge, accurate and correct;
22 is that true, sir?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Let me move over these items extremely
25 quickly, if I may. Your name, I believe, is Franjo
Page 17273
1 Nakic. Correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. You were born on September the 18th, 1941, in
4 Vitez; you are currently married and have been for 35
5 years?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And the Trial Chamber has the summary of your
10 evidence before it.
11 With the Trial Chamber's permission, I'd like
12 simply to mark this as an exhibit. We'll go over
13 particular paragraphs.
14 JUDGE MAY: The ruling will be the same as
15 before. We're not allowing witness statements to be
16 made exhibits unless, at the end, there's no dispute
17 about them.
18 MR. SAYERS: Very well.
19 Q. You received your primary education in Vitez
20 and your secondary education in Sarajevo; is that
21 correct, sir?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. I believe that you've been married for 35
24 years. Your wife and you have one daughter, who is
25 married, and you have a granddaughter as well; is that
Page 17274
1 right?
2 A. That is correct, yes.
3 Q. You studied business organisation and
4 marketing in Belgrade and worked for the state railway
5 system from 1960 to 1975, a total of 15 years; is that
6 right, sir?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. And from 1985 until 1988, you worked in the
9 government of Vitez, but before that you worked, from
10 1975 to 1984, as a professional Territorial Defence or
11 TO officer in that same town; is that right, sir?
12 A. Yes. That is right as well, yes.
13 Q. And then from 1988 until 1992, you were the
14 director of a children's clothing firm in the same
15 town, Vitez?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Rather than simply leading you through this,
18 if there's any dispute on it, could you just give the
19 Trial Chamber a summary, Brigadier, of your military
20 service before the war broke out in your country?
21 A. Yes. I served national military service in
22 the Yugoslav People's Army in 1961 and 1962 in the
23 school for military reserves in Bileca in the former
24 JNA. I graduated from that school with the rank of
25 junior lieutenant. And when I went back to the
Page 17275
1 civilian structures, I was in the Territorial Defence
2 structure of the then JNA. I attended many seminars
3 and courses, so that at them I gained certain knowledge
4 and experience and specialised as an infantry
5 specialist.
6 I worked professionally in the command from
7 1975 to 1984. After that, my wartime assignment was in
8 the 1st Partisan Brigade of Travnik, which covered the
9 area of Vitez, which is where I performed a voluntary
10 service as Chief of Staff of that particular brigade.
11 I received several awards and decorations in that
12 brigade and received the rank of major.
13 Q. What happened in April of 1992; did you stay
14 in the JNA or did you leave it, and if so, why?
15 A. No. In 1991, I no longer had an assignment
16 in the 1st Partisan Brigade, and these were intimations
17 already at that time that the Croatians were not
18 desirable in JNA units, and so I was free at that
19 time.
20 And from May of 1992, in view of the
21 situation that was happening in the former Yugoslavia
22 and my homeland, Bosnia-Herzegovina, I came to realise
23 that it was time for me to become included in the HVO
24 units, and I joined the HVO units. That is to say
25 these units were not units in the organisational sense,
Page 17276
1 such as the JNA army. It was just an organisation of
2 individuals to protect their villages and guard their
3 villages, and at points which were opposite the Serb
4 forces in Jajce.
5 Q. And I take it, sir, you did volunteer to
6 serve as a soldier on the front lines against the
7 Bosnian Serb army or BSA near Jajce in April of 1992.
8 A. Yes. At that time, I came to realise,
9 although I was a reservist, a reserve office in the JNA
10 with the rank of major -- I've already said that -- I
11 volunteered to serve as a soldier in the HVO because
12 Travnik was bombed, Slobodan Princip Seljo and the
13 military garrison in Busovaca. And in Vitez I saw that
14 this was, indeed, an aggression by the Serb army on
15 Bosnia-Herzegovina.
16 However, there was total chaos and unrest.
17 Thefts had begun, looting had begun in the villages,
18 and so we organised ourselves in the villages to
19 organise village guards to stand guard at night. And
20 those were the first forms of organisation at that
21 time.
22 Q. And is it correct, Brigadier, that in August
23 1992, you agreed to accept the command of the Village
24 Guards Company in the village of Bila?
25 A. Bila is a local community, which means that
Page 17277
1 it incorporates a number of villages, and the
2 leadership of the local community came to realise that
3 we ought to organise an organisation of this kind in
4 the local community, and they were these Home Guard
5 Units, that is to say, Village Guard Companies. And I
6 agreed to be the commander of a company in Bila which
7 incorporated three or four villages, and via that
8 company -- and we organised a company along those
9 lines.
10 Q. Could you tell the Court how you were -- how
11 you came to hold the position of Chief of Staff of the
12 Central Bosnia Operative Zone, by whom you were
13 contacted and when, sir?
14 A. I think that the proposal came from the
15 president of the Crisis Staff, Mr. Santic, who proposed
16 to the command of the Operative Zone, which was in
17 Kruscica at the time, he proposed me. And they called
18 me on the 29th of November to the command headquarters,
19 which was, at that time, in the hotel, for a
20 discussion. And on the 1st of December, I came to the
21 command, and I received my appointment to the position
22 of Chief of Staff of that command.
23 Q. And you spoke to Colonel Tihomir Blaskic in
24 that regard, I take it?
25 A. Yes, I did. All this was preceded by a talk
Page 17278
1 with Colonel Blaskic. And Colonel Blaskic, in fact,
2 appointed me to my position as Chief of Staff.
3 Q. That appointment was on December the 1st of
4 1992, was it, or not?
5 A. Yes, it was, the 1st of December.
6 Q. Brigadier, did you ever serve as Colonel
7 Blaskic's deputy commander in any fashion?
8 A. I was never Colonel Blaskic's deputy. I was
9 always Chief of Staff from that day until the end of
10 1996.
11 Q. You were, I believe, subordinate to the
12 commander of the Operative Zone, Colonel Blaskic, and
13 his deputy commander Colonel Filip Filipovic at that
14 time; is that right?
15 A. Yes. I was a subordinate to Colonel Blaskic
16 and the deputy -- Colonel Filipovic. Colonel Filipovic
17 was a former JNA officer. He had spent 20 years in the
18 Yugoslav People's Army. He was a highly experienced
19 and capable military commander, And he was, for the
20 most part, at the front line south-west of Travnik
21 towards the Serbs' positions. He was away for a lot of
22 time. He was away from the Operative Zone command, and
23 at a time he was the commander of an Operative Group
24 against the Serbs.
25 Q. All right. And when he was away from the
Page 17279
1 headquarters, is it true that you would be the acting
2 second in command?
3 A. Not by rank. I was not second by rank, but
4 in Blaskic's absence, I was the man whom people asked
5 if Colonel Filipovic happened to be absent, but I had
6 no command duties. I was Chief of Staff.
7 Q. All right. It's correct, is it not,
8 Brigadier, that Colonel Blaskic was the Operative Zone
9 commander from June of 1992 throughout all of 1993 and
10 effectively until the end of the war at the end of
11 March 1994?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And I take it, sir, that you remained in the
14 position of Chief of Staff of the headquarters until
15 December of 1996, having served under three separate
16 commanders, Colonel Blaskic, his replacement
17 Colonel Filipovic, and Colonel Filipovic's replacement
18 General Dragicevic; is that right?
19 A. Yes, that is exactly so.
20 Q. And I believe that you attained the rank of
21 Brigadier in the Army of the Federation of Bosnia and
22 Herzegovina, and ultimately retired from active
23 military duty on December the 31st, 1996, sir?
24 A. Yes. I was promoted to the rank of
25 Brigadier. It was in January 1996, and I was
Page 17280
1 demobilised after that from the HVO army.
2 Q. All right. And following the completion of
3 your military career, you went to work as the head of
4 the Department of Economic Affairs in the municipality
5 of Vitez in 1997; is that right?
6 A. Yes, that's right. I worked in the
7 municipality of Vitez. Today I work in a firm named
8 Economic, and I am the head of a marketing unit and
9 work organisation in that particular firm.
10 Q. All right. Sir, one final general question.
11 You are a Bosnian Croat by ethnicity, a Roman Catholic
12 by religion, and I believe that you've never been a
13 member of the HDZ BiH. Would that be fair to say?
14 A. Yes. That is quite correct.
15 Q. All right. Now, could you just tell the
16 Court the kind of tasks that faced you, sir, the kind
17 of challenges that confronted you when you became the
18 Chief of Staff of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone at
19 the beginning of December 1992?
20 A. When I came to the Operative Zone, I found
21 11 people in the headquarters of the Operative Zone.
22 Only one of them had military training, professional
23 military training. That was Colonel Blaskic. All the
24 others were people from the civilian ranks, with
25 secondary school education. I don't even think that
Page 17281
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Page 17282
1 anybody had university training.
2 The task that I was assigned by
3 Colonel Blaskic was to organise the command within the
4 headquarters of the Operative Zone and to create and
5 organise formations because they did not exist, and to
6 organise the headquarters and command generally, and to
7 organise and train the army, that is to say, to prepare
8 them for fighting the Serbian army.
9 So those were my basic tasks. The job was a
10 formidable one because there were very few officers
11 amongst the Croatian people who had been to military
12 academy. I had only heard of General Filipovic, that
13 he came from the same area that I came from and that he
14 was the sole officer there; although, later on, there
15 were two or three younger officers who had graduated
16 from some higher military training schools.
17 Q. All right. One minor point of historical
18 detail. In January of 1993, is it true that Mr.
19 Kostroman and his two bodyguards, Ivo Arar, and Mario
20 Musa --
21 JUDGE MAY: First of all, that sounds like
22 that's going to be a leading question; secondly, if
23 you're going to get that evidence, you'll need to
24 establish the foundation for it. An objection which
25 you very frequently made.
Page 17283
1 MR. SAYERS: Very well.
2 Q. Brigadier Nakic, do you have any knowledge
3 concerning an incident that occurred at the checkpoints
4 that had been set up at Kacuni in the latter part of
5 January of 1993, and, if so, could you tell the Court
6 about it, please?
7 A. Yes. On the 20th or 21st, I'm not quite
8 sure, we were informed by the Busovaca municipal
9 headquarters that a checkpoint had been set up one day
10 prior to that. Ignjac Kostroman and his two bodyguards
11 had been abducted, arrested, and I think that
12 Colonel Blaskic or Mr. Kordic were not at -- present in
13 that area.
14 Q. All right. Going on to the conflict that
15 occurred in the latter part of January in Busovaca,
16 could you let the Court know who it was --
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,
18 I would like to ask the witness the following
19 question: It orders -- according to the translation,
20 it orders that Mr. Kordic was not present in that
21 area. Mr. Nakic, what leads you to say -- what makes
22 you say that Mr. Kordic was not present in the area?
23 A. I was led to say that because we were
24 informed by the headquarters that it was only Ignjac
25 Kostroman who was there. That was the information that
Page 17284
1 we received from the headquarters of the municipality
2 of Busovaca.
3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] So that is
4 the information that was transmitted to you. In what
5 way was this information transmitted to you? Were you
6 told in so many words that Mr. Kordic was not there or
7 were you told that Mr. Kostroman was present?
8 A. We were told that Mr. Kostroman was present
9 and that he had been arrested but that Colonel Blaskic
10 or Kordic were not there on the spot.
11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you
12 very much.
13 MR. SAYERS: Just for the Trial Chamber's
14 information, we'll be producing a significant quantity
15 of other information on that particular point.
16 Q. Turning to the conflict in Busovaca that
17 occurred on January the 25th, 1993 and the few days
18 after that, Brigadier, could you give the Trial Chamber
19 a background of who attacked whom and how you, as the
20 Chief of Staff of the HVO, understood that the combat
21 unfolded?
22 A. I have already said that on the 19th of
23 January, checkpoints -- a checkpoint had been set up at
24 Kacuni. We received information of this at the
25 Operative Zone headquarters; namely, that in the
Page 17285
1 village of Kacuni, between Busovaca and Kiseljak, that
2 a checkpoint had been set up, that the BH army had set
3 it up, and that it was manned by members of the BH
4 army, and that it was a company of between -- a platoon
5 of between 17 and 30 soldiers. That's what the
6 information said. That they were armed with automatic
7 and RPG rifles. And if we know what the RPG rifles are
8 used for, then they were probably being -- expecting an
9 attack, because they are a means to destroy armoured
10 vehicles, bunkers, and the like.
11 So we could see that they started control and
12 free passage. It was their aim to stop the supply
13 route between Busovaca and Kiseljak, and the passage of
14 all convoys and army passing daily on that route.
15 General Blaskic would go home to Kiseljak every day.
16 So it was the objective to prevent him from passing,
17 from having free passage on that road.
18 And incidents started. We had information
19 that an offensive was being prepared in the Busovaca
20 area in order to cut off and isolate 11 kilometre -- an
21 11-kilometre stretch of the main supply route between
22 Busovaca and Kiseljak, that is to say, from the village
23 of Brestovsko to the village of Kacuni itself and the
24 entry to Busovaca itself, somewhat more northerly to
25 the village of Kacuni. And this was, in fact, what was
Page 17286
1 done on the 25th. And on the 25th or 26th, we were to
2 clear up the village of Dusina and Lasva because it was
3 a village positioned in on the main supply route and
4 everything else that the BH army needed to transport.
5 And an offensive was launched in the
6 Nezirovici, Oseliste, Gusti Grab, and Donje Polje
7 villages, and virtually the entire Croatian population
8 in the village of Solakovici and the others were
9 cleared up.
10 And what they did, first of all, was to clear
11 up the village of Lasva which had 28 households, and
12 the village of Dusina which had a total of 28
13 households. And there was also a unit of Village
14 Guards there, led by Mr. Zvonko Rajic, who opposed
15 this, and when he returned to talks in the village, he
16 was killed; that is to say, he was massacred in the
17 village itself.
18 Q. If I might just stop you there, just ask you
19 a few matters of detail, Brigadier. You referred to a
20 RPG-7. The abbreviation "RPG" stands for
21 rocket-propelled grenade; correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, could you help us? Where was the
24 headquarters of the 333rd Mountain Brigade of the ABiH,
25 as far as you understood it?
Page 17287
1 A. He erected the barricade with his unit at
2 Kacuni, because that is where the headquarters of the
3 333rd Brigade was.
4 MR. SAYERS: I might just refer the Court's
5 attention to Exhibit D103/1, which is a milinfosum
6 which chronicles those events.
7 Q. Two other questions, sir. Is it accurate
8 that the village of Donje Polje is also known as
9 Polje?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. I wonder if I might have this extract from
12 the 1991 census marked as an exhibit, just to establish
13 two things, Your Honour.
14 THE REGISTRAR: Document will be marked
15 D205/1.
16 MR. SAYERS:
17 Q. Brigadier, the document that's been shown to
18 you is an extract of the 1991 census and it contains
19 lost facts and figures. But let me just ask you to
20 confirm that the village of Donje Polje was an
21 exclusively Croat village and it had no Muslim
22 residents, as far as you knew in 1993, at the beginning
23 of 1993; is that correct?
24 A. There was not a single Muslim household
25 there.
Page 17288
1 Q. Did you have the opportunity at any time in
2 January of 1993 to see the physical condition of the
3 village of Donje Polje following the fighting that
4 occurred in January, sir?
5 A. I had occasion, because together with Dzemal
6 Merdan, the ECMM monitors, and UNPROFOR
7 representatives, I visited the villages of Lasva and
8 Dusina in order to get three elderly men, who were
9 the -- Mr. Rajic's relatives, and this is why we went
10 there. We also went to Nezirovici, Solakovici, and
11 Donje Polje. And I observed that the village was
12 empty, abandoned, burned down, that there were no
13 Croats there, and there were also three graves which we
14 dug up several days later. There was no Croatian
15 population in the area at all, and there were signs of
16 the 7th Muslim Brigade and 17th Krajina Brigade. There
17 was graffiti on the structures. So this demonstrated
18 that in addition to the 333rd Brigade, which was
19 deployed in the area part -- the parts of the 7th and
20 17th Brigades also took part in this operation.
21 Q. All right. The condition that you saw of the
22 houses in Donje Polje, burned to the ground and the
23 village empty of Croat civilians, was that a scene that
24 you saw repeated in Oseliste, Gusti Grab, Nezirovici,
25 and other villages in the area of Kacuni, sir?
Page 17289
1 A. Yes. In those villages, it was the same
2 situation as in Donje Polje. There was not a single
3 inhabitant there.
4 MR. SAYERS: Mr. President, in interests of
5 time, I'm sure the Trial Chamber is more than familiar
6 with the geography. We can have the witness show you
7 these locations of these villages on the map, but I
8 don't believe that's necessary.
9 JUDGE MAY: It's not.
10 MR. SAYERS: Thank you.
11 Q. All right. Turning to paragraph 3 of the
12 summary that you signed, sir, I think you've already
13 discussed paragraph 22. Is it correct that you were
14 appointed as the HVO representative by Colonel Blaskic
15 to attend and conduct ceasefire negotiations with
16 representatives of the ABiH at the end of January of
17 1993?
18 A. Yes. I received an order from
19 Colonel Blaskic to go to Zenica for a meeting with
20 deputy commander Dzemal Merdan. It was -- the meeting
21 was also attended by the UNPROFOR and the ECMM
22 representatives, and we met at the Motel Tisa in
23 Busovaca. We formed working groups. Mr. Zoran Pilicic
24 and Marko Prskalo were also part of that, and
25 alongside -- and Hadzihasanovic, additional two
Page 17290
1 representatives of the ABiH side were also appointed,
2 and this commission was named to discuss all the
3 pertinent matters in the municipality of Busovaca.
4 Q. I believe that you also may have travelled to
5 Kiseljak, sir. How did you get there?
6 A. We travelled in UNPROFOR vehicles, because
7 there was no other way to do it because the road was
8 blocked. And we also travelled to the BritBat base,
9 because we had some meetings there on occasions.
10 Q. All right. Following the hostilities in
11 January of 1993, did the HVO ever succeed in
12 re-establishing control over the main supply route
13 between Busovaca and Kiseljak or not, sir?
14 A. That was never done until the 3rd of
15 February, 1994; that is, when the Washington Accords
16 were signed.
17 Q. And so the Kiseljak area and the Busovaca
18 area were geographically and militarily isolated after
19 January of 1993 until the end of the war. Is that an
20 accurate statement of events?
21 A. Yes. It was cut off, and the HVO had -- it
22 was an 11-kilometre stretch, and the HVO had no access
23 to Busovaca on that road.
24 Q. Turning to paragraph 24 of the outline,
25 Brigadier, could you tell us whether Mr. Kordic was a
Page 17291
1 military commander, in any sense of the word, in the
2 Busovaca area at any time, as far as you're aware?
3 A. Mr. Kordic was a political figure.
4 Mr. Kordic was not a military commander.
5 Professionally, while I worked in Busovaca, I never
6 dealt with Mr. Kordic, and I had my own chain of
7 command. He did not have any military experience, and
8 to me he was a layperson, in terms of military
9 expertise.
10 Q. To your knowledge, and I think you may have
11 already covered this but let me make sure the record is
12 clear, did he have any military training or experience
13 beyond basic compulsory national service?
14 A. I don't believe he did, and I think that
15 during the war he knew nothing about military affairs.
16 Q. In your view, was he in any way qualified, in
17 terms of personality, training, or experience, for a
18 position of military command, sir?
19 A. No. Mr. Kordic was a popular personality.
20 He was very popular among people. People liked him as
21 a political leader. But he did not get involved in
22 military things, and he never issued me any orders.
23 And I met him frequently. Whenever we would meet each
24 other, he would greet me, he would ask me about my
25 health, and that was all the communication we had.
Page 17292
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Page 17293
1 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Sayers,
2 I would like to ask the following question to General
3 Nakic, Brigadier Nakic: Does he know whether there is
4 a link between the military, military men, and
5 politicians, because the military operates through a
6 chain of command, the chain of command of the army, and
7 did they operate in a completely autonomous fashion,
8 and what was their relation, their link, with
9 politicians, political leaders? That's the question I
10 would like to ask you, General Nakic.
11 A. The command staff, including myself, had no
12 relation with the politician. We went to the main
13 headquarters and implemented their orders.
14 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Can we say,
15 from Mr. Kordic, that he was a man of influence?
16 A. Not in the military.
17 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But in the
18 Central Bosnia Operative Zone?
19 A. No.
20 MR. SAYERS: With the Trial Chamber's
21 permission, if I may, since those subjects are covered
22 in paragraph 35 and 36 of the outline, I would like to
23 deviate and just jump straight to them. We may as well
24 finish up the issues.
25 Q. Brigadier, the Judge asked you some questions
Page 17294
1 about the chain of command. Could you just briefly
2 explain to the Trial Chamber, in your own words and not
3 in mine, how the chain of command actually ran, the
4 military chain of command, starting, please, at the
5 general staff level in Mostar?
6 A. The chain of command in the HVO in the HZ HB,
7 was as follows: There was the general staff, headed by
8 Brigadier Milivoj Petkovic. Then there were Operative
9 Zones. Specifically in our Operative Zone, it was
10 Colonel Blaskic who was in command, and in north-west
11 Herzegovina, which is another operative zone, Zeljko
12 Siljeg was its commander.
13 All Home Guard units were part of the Central
14 Bosnia Operative Zone; that is, all the Home Guard
15 units who were in the area.
16 Professional units, like Vitezovi and Tvrtko
17 II, were subordinated to the general staff
18 headquarters, to Brigadier Petkovic and the Ministry of
19 Defence, and the military police in Ljubuski. As an
20 exception, permission needed to be obtained from the
21 police, Ministry of the Interior, and for the military
22 police also from Mostar.
23 Only after June 1993, all units were
24 subordinated to Colonel Blaskic, that is, to the
25 Operative Zone, and it was only after that period that
Page 17295
1 they could be used in that way.
2 Q. Just so that the record is clear, with
3 respect to the special purpose units that you've
4 described, such as the Vitezovi and the Tvrtko II
5 units, under whose administrative control did those
6 units fall, sir?
7 A. The Minister of Defence and the Main Staff.
8 Q. And under whose operative control?
9 A. One had to ask for permission for their
10 operational use, and if such was received, then they
11 would be under Colonel Blaskic. Otherwise, they could
12 not be used. And as of 4th June 1993, they were under
13 the operative command of Colonel Blaskic.
14 Q. With respect to the military police, sir, who
15 was the chief of military police or the head of the
16 department of military police in Ljubuski?
17 A. Mr. Valentin Coric.
18 Q. Very well. Now, turning to paragraph 36,
19 there has been a suggestion in this case that the HVO
20 had a system similar to the armed forces of the former
21 Soviet Union in which there was an office of political
22 officer or political commissar who coordinated with the
23 commander, if I understand the system correctly, and
24 represented the political party, the sole political
25 party in the Soviet Union.
Page 17296
1 Was there any similar system in the Operative
2 Zone in Central Bosnia or within the HVO generally, as
3 far as you know, Brigadier Nakic?
4 A. Twenty years before this war broke out, the
5 JNA restructured its armed forces and made adjustments
6 to the western style of armies. I know this because I
7 was involved in this work. We adopted the formation of
8 western military organisations, and the Soviet model
9 and the Eastern European model were not in use.
10 At first, our formation was that there was a
11 commander, deputy commander, and assistant commanders.
12 There was a commander for information, political work,
13 which was for indoctrination, and there was logistics
14 assistant, security, and it had a staff of which I was
15 the chief. And this was a mobilisation/operations
16 body. We had an assistance for IPD. This was Marko
17 Prskalo, until he was wounded.
18 JUDGE MAY: I just wanted to be clear. You
19 started talking about the JNA, but you then said that,
20 "Our formation was commander, deputy commander, and
21 commander for information, political work." At that
22 stage, Brigadier Nakic, are you talking about the HVO,
23 your own organisation?
24 A. Yes. I said "our organisation", that is, the
25 HVO.
Page 17297
1 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. If you would like to
2 go on.
3 MR. SAYERS: Yes.
4 Q. Now, the officer for informative political
5 work that you've referred to, who was that, sir, during
6 your tenure as Chief of Staff of the Central Bosnia
7 Operative Zone?
8 A. It was Mr. Marko Prskalo, until he was
9 wounded, and then he was replaced by Dragan Ramljak.
10 Q. And what was the function of an officer for
11 informative political work?
12 A. He was an assistant to Colonel Blaskic in
13 regard of all information and political work that was
14 relevant for the Operative Zone. That would include
15 also cultural and sports activities.
16 Q. And did these officers generally hold
17 conferences, press conferences for informational
18 purposes, for UNPROFOR, or the ECMM, or any other one,
19 a person that wanted to attend?
20 A. That was one of their tasks, and they
21 regularly took part in press conferences.
22 Q. We showed you the decree of the armed forces
23 of October the 17th, sir. Was political activity in
24 the armed forces themselves permitted, as far as you
25 know?
Page 17298
1 A. Yes, I'm familiar with this. I know Article
2 55 very well, because the political work in units was
3 prohibited and their unit members were not allowed to
4 be members of political parties.
5 Q. You said "Article 55", sir, but I think it
6 may have been Article 25. But you can be shown that.
7 Was that directive followed, as far as you're
8 aware, throughout your services?
9 A. 25, yes. Yes, it was 25, and the HVO
10 followed it.
11 Q. Thank you. If we can go back, unless the
12 Court has any questions, to paragraph 24. Just a few
13 questions, sir.
14 You were asked by one of the Judges about
15 Mr. Kordic's role or about the role of politicians in
16 the military generally, and you've given your answer on
17 that. Was Mr. Kordic ever in the chain of command of
18 the Busovaca-based brigade, the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski
19 Brigade?
20 A. No. The command of that brigade never had
21 Kordic as their member. First it was Jozinovic, then
22 Grubesic. And as far as my work in Busovaca is
23 concerned, which lasted for about a month and a half,
24 after which I transferred to Vitez, my work there went
25 through Mr. Grubesic and never through Mr. Kordic.
Page 17299
1 Q. All right. Paragraph 25. Is it correct,
2 sir, that Colonel Blaskic had his headquarters located
3 in the Hotel Lovac in the village of Kruscica, at the
4 time that you became appointed to the position of Chief
5 of Staff, but that he moved his headquarters
6 subsequently to the Hotel Vitez, where it stayed for
7 the rest of the war?
8 A. The first command headquarters was in Hotel
9 Lovac. But when I arrived, I went straight to the
10 Hotel Vitez, where they had relocated three or four
11 days earlier. And then from then on until the end of
12 the war, the headquarters was in Hotel Vitez.
13 Q. Thank you. And moving on quickly, just on
14 the question of headquarters again, is it correct that
15 the headquarters of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade
16 in Busovaca was initially located in the PTT building
17 but was moved subsequently to the Sumarija building
18 elsewhere in the town?
19 A. Yes. From my arrival there, the 1st of
20 December, I found them in the PTT building. Then I
21 don't know when they moved to the Sumarija building,
22 which is on the edge of town when you come to town from
23 the direction of Kiseljak.
24 Q. Very well, sir. The brigade, though, never
25 had its headquarters in the Tisovac area south-west of
Page 17300
1 Busovaca; is that right?
2 A. In that period of time, I'm unaware of that.
3 Q. Moving on to the Busovaca Joint Commission
4 upon which you served. Could you just tell the Trial
5 Chamber how you came to serve upon this commission and
6 who was on it, sir, and when you were asked to
7 participate?
8 A. I must say that nobody asked me. It was
9 ordered by General Blaskic that myself, Marko Prskalo,
10 and Zoran Pilicic become part of the commission for the
11 cessation of combat activities in the territory of
12 Busovaca, for the maintenance of peace, the separation
13 of armies, covering of trenches, and normalisation of
14 life in the Busovaca area.
15 Q. Is it correct that the Busovaca Joint
16 Commission was initially headed up by
17 Lieutenant-Colonel Robert Stewart and an ECMM
18 representative by the name of Jeremy Fleming?
19 A. Technical services were provided by the
20 British Battalion, and Lieutenant Colonel Stewart
21 provided a lot of assistance there, and ECMM
22 representatives also took part, and Mr. Flemming, and
23 they were involved in the work of the joint commission
24 and they provided help.
25 Q. Who signed the actual ceasefire agreement
Page 17301
1 dated January the 30th, 1994 that brought a formal end
2 to the hostilities in the Busovaca area, sir? Sorry,
3 it's 1993.
4 A. I did and Mr. Dzemal Merdan, on the
5 authority -- as authorised by our superiors.
6 MR. SAYERS: Your Honours, I can lead
7 Brigadier Nakic through the next few paragraphs. I
8 don't think there's any dispute about them, unless
9 there's any objection from the Prosecution.
10 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
11 MR. SAYERS:
12 Q. Brigadier, is it true that you were the
13 principal HVO representative on the commission, along
14 with two of your subordinate officers, Mr. Pilicic and
15 Mr. Prskalo?
16 A. Yes. I was the leader of the group and its
17 commander. The second person was Marko Prskalo,
18 assistant for political affairs; and Zoran Pilicic, who
19 at that time was assistant for personnel matters in the
20 Operative Zone at that time.
21 Q. Your ABiH counterpart, I think you've said,
22 was Colonel Dzemal Merdan; correct?
23 A. Dzemal Merdan, with another two members of
24 the commission whose name I have meanwhile forgotten.
25 Q. As I understand the structure of the
Page 17302
1 commission, sir, it had a coordination committee that
2 met fairly infrequently and then a working committee
3 consisting of yourself and your counterparts on the
4 other side that met every day for the purpose of
5 addressing and resolving problems specifically in the
6 Busovaca area initially that had cropped up; is that
7 right?
8 A. Our work in Busovaca was continuous, on a
9 daily basis. We even spent -- we even spent nights in
10 DutchBat, in Tisovac, and we worked a lot. The morning
11 briefing started very early. We even organised
12 subcommittees which involved members of the Busovaca
13 Brigade and members of the 333rd Brigade who
14 implemented our conclusions and our agreements, and
15 they met from the start of the cessation, and as issues
16 were being resolved, they would implement them. Then
17 the separation of forces first at the 50 per cent
18 level, then 70 per cent, and then the lines were
19 abandoned and --
20 JUDGE MAY: If counsel wants this detail
21 he'll ask you, Brigadier.
22 MR. SAYERS: Yes.
23 Q. Let me just ask you -- you can just say yes
24 or no to these questions, Brigadier, just so that we
25 make sure we have a full record here. Is it true that
Page 17303
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Page 17304
1 each of the parties would send representatives into the
2 field each day to investigate the particular complaints
3 that had been made and then those -- that the results
4 of the investigations would be reported back each day;
5 yes or no?
6 A. Yes. In the morning, we discussed the
7 incidents which had happened overnight. We would send
8 people out in the field, and then we would again meet
9 in the evenings, and we would send out reports to our
10 respective commands, and ECMM to Zagreb where their
11 headquarters was.
12 Q. And throughout February and March, you spent
13 considerable amount of time working on this commission,
14 and in March, the commission moved to Vitez and changed
15 its name; is that correct?
16 A. In March we moved to Vitez because there was
17 not enough room in the DutchBat headquarters. So the
18 British battalion gave us premises, and we transferred
19 to Vitez, where we changed our name into the Vitez
20 Commission.
21 JUDGE MAY: If this is a convenient moment.
22 We'll adjourn now for half an hour.
23 Would you be back, please, Brigadier, in half
24 an hour.
25 --- Recess taken at 11.02 a.m.
Page 17305
1 --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m.
2 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Mr. President.
3 Q. Brigadier Nakic, we had reached 31 of your
4 summary. Could you tell us whether, in any of the
5 negotiations in which you participated that ultimately
6 led to the January the 30th, 1993 ceasefire agreement,
7 was Mr. Kordic's name mentioned once by anyone?
8 A. The commission, which was of mixed
9 composition, worked independently with the
10 representatives of the EMM, the European Monitoring
11 Mission, that is, and UNPROFOR. We worked
12 independently without the presence of anybody else
13 except for the interested parties, and --
14 Q. Let me interrupt you, Brigadier, because the
15 question I was asking you is whether in the ceasefire
16 negotiations that immediately preceded the January the
17 30th, 1993 agreement, did anyone, any representative of
18 BritBat or the ECMM, any negotiator from the Muslim
19 side, did anybody mention Mr. Kordic's name even once?
20 A. No, it was never mentioned; nor did anybody
21 bring it up.
22 Q. All right. And no one -- well, turning to
23 paragraph 32, it's true as well, isn't it, that
24 Mr. Kordic never attended any meetings of the Busovaca
25 Joint Commission or the Vitez Joint Commission, when it
Page 17306
1 was moved to Vitez in March of 1993?
2 A. No, he was never present.
3 Q. And I believe it's also true that his name
4 was never mentioned, as far as you can remember, in any
5 joint committee meeting or negotiation at any time
6 during the service that you performed on either of
7 those commissions, the Busovaca Joint Commission or the
8 Vitez Joint Commission.
9 A. Never, not in any of the commissions, was the
10 name Kordic mentioned or asked for.
11 Q. All right. So he was a non-factor in the
12 operation of the commission, and obviously it follows
13 from your testimony that he never took part in any of
14 the military discussions or Joint Commission
15 deliberations at any point in January of 1993 or after
16 that. Is that right?
17 A. At meetings which I attended, he never took
18 part, no.
19 Q. Very well. Turning to paragraph 33, your
20 counterpart, Colonel Merdan, could you give your views
21 or experiences on how cooperative Colonel Merdan
22 appeared to be during these negotiations and whether he
23 always kept the agreements that he had appeared to have
24 reached?
25 A. Mr. Merdan was cooperative and he was a
Page 17307
1 reasonable man, a man from the former JNA. However,
2 sometimes I seemed to feel that more often he breached
3 the agreements, negotiations, than not.
4 And frequently in my discussions with
5 Mr. Merdan, I would mention the 7th Muslim Brigade,
6 because from his colleagues who were in the commission
7 together with us, I frequently heard mention of the
8 fact that Mr. Merdan wielded great influence in the 7th
9 Muslim Brigade. However, he always denied any contacts
10 with the 7th Muslim Brigade and never brought it in any
11 connection with the BH army.
12 Q. Paragraph 34. Were there any restrictions on
13 Colonel Merdan's movement in and around Busovaca during
14 the negotiations that led up to the signature of the
15 January the 30th, 1993 ceasefire agreement, sir?
16 A. No. Mr. Merdan moved around Busovaca. He
17 had an aunt living in Busovaca whom he would visit
18 frequently, regularly.
19 Q. All right. We've already covered paragraphs
20 35 and 36, so I'll move on to paragraphs 37 and 38.
21 Speaking from your perspective of Chief of
22 Staff of the Operative Zone in Central Bosnia, sir,
23 could you give us your understanding or your views on
24 the military strategy pursued by your adversaries in
25 Central Bosnia during 1993?
Page 17308
1 A. Your Honours, Central Bosnia is one of the
2 most beautiful regions, perhaps, of
3 Bosnia-Herzegovina. The population which lived there
4 was 50/50; that is to say, Muslims and Croats, that was
5 the ratio. There were some other nationalities, but in
6 lesser proportion. The villages and even the town
7 itself had a mixed population.
8 However, circumstances, the circumstances
9 which arose through the aggression of the Serb army,
10 brought in many refugees and displaced persons from
11 Krajina and Eastern Bosnia into the area, so that the
12 population began to increase rapidly and evil things
13 began to take -- ugly things began to take place.
14 There were excessive incidents, there were thefts,
15 there was looting, and all the kind of things that
16 didn't take place previously, and what took place now
17 was very ugly.
18 It is my assessment that the Croats and
19 Muslims, the local ones, would never have entered into
20 a conflict were it not for the influx of these refugees
21 who sought a space for themselves, having lost their
22 own in Western and Eastern Bosnia, and it is my
23 assessment that the conflict precisely arose due to
24 these refugees who flooded the area looking for a place
25 to live. It was they that armed themselves, engaged in
Page 17309
1 these incidents, did not wish to man the front lines
2 opposing the Serbian army. They said it wasn't their
3 war, whereas the Croats would regularly go to the front
4 lines opposite the Serbs. They defended Jajce, they
5 defended Travnik. I don't know -- I was at the front
6 lines myself, but I don't know what it was that the BH
7 army held to begin with, what lines it held.
8 Of the 12.600 people that lived in Vitez,
9 over 700 were killed in Vitez and another 2.000 were
10 seriously wounded, and they are invalids today, walking
11 about Vitez and the world. You find them everywhere,
12 dispersed through all four corners of the world.
13 And we in the Operative Zone of the Main
14 Staff implemented the Geneva Convention and called for
15 the implementation of the provisions of the Geneva
16 Convention. I'm not saying that there were not,
17 perhaps, individuals who went against them, but as a
18 whole, this is what we did. And of course, the Main
19 Staff couldn't control the actions of each and every
20 individual.
21 Q. Just turning to January of 1993 once again,
22 sir. Immediately prior to the fighting that broke out
23 in Busovaca, did you have any knowledge of detachments
24 from the ABiH in Zenica arriving in the Kacuni area?
25 A. The BH army had a well-organised Territorial
Page 17310
1 Defence system, and they remained within the system so
2 that each local community had its unit, ranging from a
3 company, that was the smallest one, or platoons in a
4 village, so that they inherited TO weapons, because for
5 the most part, their commanders at that time, both in
6 Vitez and in Busovaca, as well as in Travnik, there
7 were TO headquarters. So they inherited all the
8 equipment and materiel that was there. It remained in
9 the hands of the BH army.
10 Q. If I might interrupt you just a minute,
11 Brigadier. The question was narrower. I'm just asking
12 about the fighting in January in the Busovaca area.
13 Was that immediately preceded, to your knowledge, by
14 arrival of detachments from the ABiH in Zenica to the
15 Kacuni region, including forward units of the
16 7th Muslim Brigade?
17 A. Yes. They came to Busovaca from Zenica, the
18 333rd, the one which was in the region, the people from
19 Krajina, and the 7th Muslim Brigade. I've already said
20 that. I saw traces of them at features which remained
21 standing then and had not been destroyed.
22 Q. Let me just ask you one general question
23 before we proceed to paragraph 39. In your view, was
24 the Muslim military strategy aimed in any way of
25 controlling the main supply routes that ran up from
Page 17311
1 Novi Travnik to Vitez, from Vitez to Busovaca, and then
2 from points south towards Kiseljak or not?
3 A. The aim was to take over Central Bosnia, take
4 control of Central Bosnia. The strategy was to cut off
5 Central Bosnia into those parts, that is, near Busovaca
6 and the Vitez area, and once it had been cut off, all
7 communication was severed, was to sever communication
8 and then take control of the whole area. That was the
9 objective.
10 Q. All right. Let me turn forward in time and
11 forward in the summary to paragraph 39. Let me just
12 address your attention to mid-April of 1993.
13 I gather, sir, that you were actually not in
14 Vitez when the fighting broke out, that you were absent
15 from the town between April 14th and 17th, 1993.
16 A. Yes. Between the 14th and 21st I was not in
17 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone command headquarters
18 at the time. On the 14th, there was a kidnapping that
19 took place of four members of the HVO of Novi Travnik,
20 staff officers.
21 Q. Those consisted of three staff officers and a
22 driver, I believe; is that correct?
23 A. Yes, that's right, three officers and one
24 soldier.
25 Q. All right. That abduction, as the Trial
Page 17312
1 Chamber knows, occurred on the 13th of April, 1993.
2 Sir, in your own words, could you just explain to the
3 Court exactly what your connection was with the
4 investigation into that incident and what you did in
5 that regard, please?
6 A. At the morning briefing on the 14th, the
7 joint commission, led by myself and Mr. Merdan and a
8 gentleman from the monitoring mission, I know that his
9 name was Valentin, he was a Spaniard, I don't know the
10 other man that was there, but we decided to go in
11 search of -- that is to say, we decided at the meeting
12 that we would go to try to find those three abducted
13 officers and this one soldier of the HVO.
14 We set out from our joint building following
15 information that came to the HVO of Novi Travnik and
16 the headquarters of the BH army which was in Novi
17 Travnik. The information that we received there in the
18 HVO, we were told that they had been kidnapped by the
19 Mujahedin and that the officers were on assignment at
20 Mescema, which is the front line facing the Serbs in
21 the Komar region, and that they were returning from
22 that position, and that somewhere between Novi Travnik
23 and this place Mescema, they were kidnapped and taken
24 in the direction of Ravno Rostovo. We received precise
25 information, which car was used, what truck was used.
Page 17313
1 It was a butcher's truck from Bugojno, a truck used for
2 the transport of meat. That was the vehicle that was
3 used to take them in the direction of Ravno Rostovo.
4 So certain information -- we did not get any
5 information from the BH army headquarters.
6 Then we went to the barracks at Ravno
7 Rostovo. It was a barracks for the training of members
8 of the BH army, that is to say, the Mujahedin, because
9 there was a Mujahedin company there engaged in training
10 in the area.
11 We arrived at Rostovo. They did not allow us
12 to enter the barracks compound let alone the barracks
13 itself. They didn't even want to talk to us. Dzemal
14 Merdan did insist on this; I must say that. However,
15 the answer was that they did not know of that incident,
16 they had no information about it, they had nothing to
17 do with it, and that they didn't want to discuss the
18 matter at all.
19 Although we had information that the vehicle
20 was parked behind the barracks and that the members
21 were actually in the cellars of the barracks, basement
22 of the barracks, but what we did then, we went to the
23 command of the Operative Group in Bugojno, Mr. Selmo
24 Cikotic, and asked him for permission to allow us to
25 contact once again the gentleman at Ravno Rostovo. He
Page 17314
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Page 17315
1 said that he had nothing to do with the affair and
2 that, indeed, he knew nothing about it, because he was
3 the commander of the Operative Group and in his area of
4 responsibility is where the Ravno Rostovo barracks were
5 located.
6 We went back at this point, without having
7 done the business we were about. We went back to Novi
8 Travnik to inform the members of the HVO that we had
9 not succeeded in finding the HVO members. And the
10 commander of the local police force, Mr. Stipe Bavrka,
11 said to Mr. Merdan, "Mr. Merdan, consider yourself my
12 prisoner," and, "You are now arrested in Novi Travnik
13 until you return the members of the HVO to us."
14 I reacted to this immediately by saying,
15 "Mr. Bavrka, you cannot behave in that manner.
16 Mr. Merdan is here with me. I am responsible for
17 him." Then he said, "Well then you too, sir. You too,
18 Mr. Nakic, are under arrest." That occurred in the
19 evening hours, at about 10.30 p.m.
20 After all the talks we had with Mr. Bavrka,
21 between me and Mr. Zeljko, we did not succeed in
22 solving anything. I then requested that I inform
23 Colonel Blaskic about all this, which I did. I
24 informed him of the matter. After a very unpleasant
25 conversation and entreaty, after two and a half hours,
Page 17316
1 we were released from the premises in which we were
2 detain -- we had been detained for such a long time.
3 Later on, I went in the morning hours to
4 report all this, to report back to Colonel Blaskic.
5 Colonel Blaskic told me that as the 13th was a very
6 difficult day for the commission, he said, "Mr. Franjo,
7 go and have a rest. Go home and rest and come to work
8 the day after tomorrow because I see that you have not
9 slept for two nights." And so I left to have a rest.
10 On the 16th I was at home, and when I went to
11 work in the morning, the conflict had already started.
12 There were already blocks on the road to Vitez. I
13 wasn't able to pass there because there was a BH
14 checkpoint below UNPROFOR towards Vitez.
15 So I went back home and telephoned the
16 Colonel. He told me to remain in my village, in my
17 unit, and monitor the situation from there and to see
18 what was going on in my village, because in the
19 neighbouring village of Sadovace, on -- the demarcation
20 line was some 300 to 400 metres away.
21 So that is where I remained. I contacted the
22 local commander, and he said that nothing special was
23 happening, except that there were intimations that the
24 neighbours in Sadovace were fortifying themselves.
25 Then I suggested that he take steps to entrench on the
Page 17317
1 other side, but without going into excessive activity,
2 and this is what was done, in fact.
3 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you. Now,
4 Mr. Sayers, unless there's anything else that's
5 relevant about this part.
6 MR. SAYERS: No, I don't think there is, Your
7 Honour. Let's just move on to paragraph 40.
8 Q. Is it true that in your experience, Brigadier
9 Nakic, the 3rd Corps always tried to keep the position
10 of the Mujahedin and the 7th Muslim Brigade in a state
11 of confusion or secrecy or not?
12 A. Yes, yes, that is quite true, and that is my
13 observation.
14 Q. And is it also true that from mid-April until
15 June the 8th of 1993, one of your subordinates,
16 Mr. Slavko Marin, temporarily performed your duties as
17 Chief of Staff in the Central Bosnia Operative Zone?
18 A. Yes, that is correct as well. When I went to
19 the Joint Command, Slavko Marin performed my duties up
20 until June.
21 Q. Thank you. Turning to paragraph 42, that
22 contains your views of the April offensive of the ABiH,
23 and you can answer questions about that subject, if
24 asked; correct?
25 A. Correct.
Page 17318
1 Q. Let me turn to the Joint Command that was set
2 up in Travnik as a result of the April 1993 ceasefire
3 negotiations. The Trial Chamber has already heard
4 about this, Brigadier, so we can go over this fairly
5 quickly.
6 Isn't it true that a joint HVO-ABiH body
7 called the Joint Command was set up as a result of the
8 ceasefire negotiations that were conducted in Zenica on
9 the 21st of April, 1993?
10 A. Yes. From a meeting that was held between
11 Brigadier Petkovic, Mr. Sefer Halilovic, Blaskic and
12 Hadzihasanovic, an order was issued which I received
13 personally from Mr. Blaskic, that I was a member of the
14 Joint Command of the BH army to represent the HVO,
15 myself, Mr. Zvonko Vukovic and Vlado Juric, and that
16 our headquarters would be in Bila for the time being
17 but that we would remove to the post office in Travnik
18 because there were assignments in the Vlasic area to be
19 conducted against the Serb army.
20 Q. Just as you had in the Busovaca and the Vitez
21 Joint Commissions, you were asked to head the HVO
22 delegation from Vitez; is that correct, sir?
23 A. Yes. With the -- to stabilise peace in
24 Busovaca and Travnik and that area, the Joint Command
25 was located in the basement of the post office in Stari
Page 17319
1 Travnik, and that's where we began our work, which was
2 of joint interest, and it was the elaboration of plans
3 for fighting the Serbs in the area north-west of
4 Travnik. And I compiled those plans myself with my
5 group, and General Merdan did the same with his own
6 group. There were certain conditions to be met and so
7 on and so forth, and we did indeed spend our entire
8 time working out these plans.
9 However, I seem to feel that --
10 Q. Brigadier, on this Joint Commission, Colonel
11 Merdan was your counterpart appointed to head the ABiH
12 delegation; is that correct?
13 A. Yes, that's correct.
14 Q. Now, could you tell us whether General
15 Hadzihasanovic from the 3rd Corps, the commander of the
16 3rd Corps, was cooperative in negotiating on this
17 commission with Colonel Blaskic, when asked to do so,
18 or not?
19 A. In the Joint Command, we had information that
20 the army was preparing something, and I insisted with
21 Colonel Blaskic that he have a meeting with
22 Hadzihasanovic to discuss everything, especially
23 matters which were topical at that time.
24 However, despite the fact that Mr. Stewart
25 and Mr. Fleming assisted, and all the others who were
Page 17320
1 in the area, assisted in -- wanted to bring about the
2 meeting, but the meeting never actually took place, and
3 Colonel Blaskic insisted on the meeting. And why this
4 did not take place we saw on the 6th of June, 1993.
5 The reason was clear on that day.
6 Q. Thank you, Brigadier, and I'll move on to
7 paragraph 45 right now.
8 But for the Trial Chamber's information, we
9 would like to draw the Court's attention to Exhibit
10 D194/1, and specifically page 10 of that document,
11 which is a British military intelligence summary that
12 summarises the refusals of General Hadzihasanovic to
13 participate in negotiations and to meet with
14 Colonel Blaskic immediately prior to the offensive
15 launched by the ABiH on June the 6th and 8th.
16 Turning to that, Brigadier Nakic, it's true
17 that a large-scale offensive was launched in the Lasva
18 Valley, the western end of the Lasva Valley and
19 elsewhere, in early June of 1993, isn't it?
20 A. Yes. This began on the 3rd and 4th of June,
21 1993, this excessive behaviour. And on the 6th of
22 June, at that time I was at the headquarters of the
23 Joint Command, the joint headquarters in Travnik, and I
24 tried to calm the situation which took place on the 3rd
25 and 4th of June because I still believed that a
Page 17321
1 conflict would not arise and that we could avoid it.
2 However, nevertheless, on the 6th of June an
3 all-out offensive took place from the north-western and
4 south-western axes in Bosnia, and the whole Travnik
5 municipality, parts of Novi Travnik, the Busovaca and
6 Vitez municipalities, were all attacked. It is my
7 estimate that this was a terrible, all-out attack with
8 all available forces and materiel. And at the time and
9 according to the information we received, the ratio was
10 one to eight; the ratio of forces --
11 Q. You mean that --
12 A. -- was one to eight.
13 Q. -- the HVO was outnumbered by the ABiH during
14 this offensive by eight to one?
15 A. Yes, yes, that's right.
16 Q. Would you tell the Court, sir, what happened
17 to the civilian Croat population in the villages to the
18 east of Travnik and north and the other villages that
19 were in the Travnik municipality during this offensive?
20 A. During this offensive, it was the villages
21 around Travnik that were affected worst and the town of
22 Travnik itself with respect to the Croatian
23 population. The Travnik municipality is a mountainous
24 municipality with far-flung villages, and it was
25 difficult to defend all these Croatian villages from
Page 17322
1 the onslaught of the BH army.
2 The villages around Mount Vlasic remained
3 completely empty. The people there were killed. The
4 people fled from the villages, from Travnik towards
5 Zenica, such as Cukle, Podovi, Grahovcici, Brajkovici,
6 Han Bila. These were all the villages.
7 The civilian population were forcibly
8 expelled from their homes in the Travnik municipality.
9 They were taken to Zenica, to the Busovaca
10 municipality. The houses were set alight. You could
11 see them burning from all parts.
12 Travnik was left without its Croat civilian
13 population because all these people had left. That is
14 to say, they were forcibly expelled from Travnik, some
15 of them were killed. So that the village of Maljine,
16 for example, there were 48 dead then. We do not know
17 to this day where their graves are staying there,
18 Brajkovici and Grahovici villages. Eighty-two people
19 went missing in Miletici, five people whom I had myself
20 had transported their dead bodies to Bila, and so on
21 and so forth. It was a really terrible and difficult
22 time.
23 Q. All right. Just few matters of detail.
24 Approximately how many refugees, civilian
25 refugees, and displaced persons of Croat ethnicity were
Page 17323
1 forced out of their homes in this offensive that you've
2 just described, sir?
3 A. From what one could see, over 20.000 people
4 arrived in Bila and Nova Bila, over 20.000. Part of
5 the people who remained in Guca Gora, locked up in the
6 church, thanks to Officer Duncan I was able to get them
7 out. However, unfortunately seven men stayed behind,
8 and the next morning I had to bury them by the church.
9 Q. And as they were being buried, sir, there was
10 gunfire or there were actually bullets flying overhead
11 of the people who were actually attending the burial
12 ceremony; isn't that correct?
13 A. Yes. People filed out of the church for the
14 burial, and even though UNPROFOR protected us with five
15 or six Warriors, again thanks to Lieutenant Colonel
16 Duncan, a fire was opened upon us and General Merdan
17 was powerless to do anything. The bullets came flying
18 all around us.
19 Q. Now, there's been some suggestion that these
20 20.000 or so people left their homes as a result of
21 propaganda rather than being forcibly expelled by a
22 dint of military force. Could you give your views on
23 that subject to the Trial Court, please?
24 A. Your Honours, who would leave their own home
25 and hearth and flee into the woods and to someone else,
Page 17324
1 not knowing what they could expect, whether they would
2 find the kindness of strangers? No propaganda could
3 have driven these people away from their homes had they
4 not been forced to flee the onslaught. And for those
5 who did not leave, we never found them again alive.
6 Q. Turning to paragraph 47, Brigadier: During
7 meetings between the HVO and ABiH representatives,
8 could you tell the Court whether Colonel Merdan ever
9 made any comments when disagreements arose or when
10 tempers flared?
11 A. Yes. On the eve of this offensive, he said,
12 "You will remember us once the army got going," and
13 believe me, we did remember it.
14 Q. All right. Let me turn, if I can, quickly to
15 the next item, which is the Convoy of Joy, paragraphs
16 48 to 51.
17 During the middle of this offensive in the
18 Travnik area, it's correct, is it not, that a private
19 convoy tried to drive straight through the war zone,
20 through territory controlled by or formerly controlled
21 by Bosnian Croat armed forces; is that right?
22 A. Yes, that is correct.
23 Q. Now, we all know there's been extensive
24 evidence in this case concerning the circumstances
25 under which this convoy was stopped and looted, and
Page 17325
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Page 17326
1 there's been a suggestion that this was as a result of
2 a deliberate plan that was formulated not by the
3 military but by politicians. Could you give your views
4 on that particular subject, Brigadier?
5 A. I never heard of such a plan, of its
6 existence or its implementation. This was
7 spontaneous. The population was angry. Those 20.000
8 civilian refugees had nothing to eat. There was no
9 organisation. Colonel Blaskic actually issued an order
10 providing safe passage for the convoy, and the military
11 was not involved in this.
12 I will just illustrate it. I was with Dzemal
13 Merdan, and a member of the HVO was coming back home,
14 and he was killed by UNPROFOR about 100 metres away
15 from his home. He was coming back home. UNPROFOR took
16 him for somebody who was involved in the incident.
17 This man's name was Zoran Matovic. I protested and I
18 got an apology from UNPROFOR, but obviously it was too
19 late.
20 Q. All right. The night the convoy was stopped
21 in the Novi Travnik-Vitez area, sir, on June 10, 1993,
22 is it correct that eight Bosnian Croat children were
23 blown to pieces by a 128-millimetre mortar shell that
24 had been fired from the direction of Stari Vitez?
25 A. Yes, that is correct. It was the worst
Page 17327
1 incident which affected the children in the town of
2 Vitez at the time. Two days later, I went to that site
3 where the shell had fallen, and in my judgement, it was
4 a 128-millimetre shell. It could not have been
5 launched from Stari Vitez but, rather, from either
6 Bukve or Trebinje, which is near Bila, under Guca
7 Gora. That is the direction from which it could have
8 come.
9 From what I saw on the ground, it was a
10 terrible sight, and I can only imagine what it must
11 have looked like for the mothers who found their
12 children blown to pieces.
13 Q. Brigadier, the contention has been made --
14 and I'm turning to paragraph 51 now -- that Mr. Kordic
15 was the individual who had somehow orchestrated the
16 apprehension of this convoy. Did he?
17 A. I only have information that Mr. Kordic was
18 asked for assistance and that he provided assistance to
19 UNPROFOR for the safe passage of the convoy, and I have
20 heard of no other thing. I have no other information
21 relating to Mr. Kordic's involvement.
22 Q. Just turning to paragraph 52. Is it right
23 that the commanders of the 4th battalion of HVO
24 military police were, in turn, first Mr. Zvonko
25 Vukovic, until about January the 18th, 1993; followed
Page 17328
1 by Pasko Ljubicic, holding that post from approximately
2 January 18, 1993 until August 1, 1993; and finally,
3 until the end of the war, Mr. Marinko Palavra, taking
4 over from Mr. Pasko Ljubicic on August 1, 1993?
5 A. Yes. Those were the three officers who were
6 commanders during the time when I was in the Operative
7 Zone headquarters.
8 Q. Very well. Turning to paragraph 53. Did you
9 ever, yourself, see any Croatian army detachments,
10 units, or troops in Central Bosnia? During the war,
11 obviously.
12 A. Croatian army was never in Central Bosnia.
13 What one could see in Central Bosnia were individuals
14 who had been in the Croatian army, and I think they're
15 motivated by a desire to brag. They wore those
16 patches.
17 I personally was put in charge of ensuring
18 that those insignia were taken off. However, we were
19 unable to do it completely, and even some officers
20 refused to take off these patches and ranks. There
21 were six or seven people who wore those patches, and I
22 think that no one could be found to confirm that there
23 were Croatian army soldiers in Central Bosnia.
24 Q. These people that refused to take off the
25 patches though, were they HVO soldiers or Croatian army
Page 17329
1 soldiers or do you know?
2 A. No, no. They were Bosnian Croats, Croats
3 from Bosnia who had been on the front line in Croatia
4 against the Serbs and came back home and brought their
5 old uniforms with them. So they were Bosnian Croats.
6 Q. All right. Just one --
7 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Sayers, does he have any
8 idea about how many of these Bosnian Croats were there
9 who came back and were wearing HV insignia?
10 MR. SAYERS:
11 Q. Brigadier, you've heard the Judge's
12 question. What's the answer to that?
13 A. The number would be seven or eight. I can
14 even name some names there. Not more than that.
15 MR. SAYERS: Unless it's relevant, I don't
16 think it's necessary to name the names, Your Honour.
17 JUDGE ROBINSON: No.
18 MR. SAYERS:
19 Q. Brigadier, as far as you're aware as the
20 chief of staff of the Central Bosnia Operative Zone,
21 did you receive orders or did your headquarters or
22 commanding officer receive orders from any HV sources?
23 A. No, never.
24 Q. Did you ever hear anybody claim, suggest, or
25 intimate that somehow HVO commanders were under the
Page 17330
1 enthral of the HV organs of command or in any way under
2 the command of the Croatian army?
3 A. Central Bosnia had no connection to the HV.
4 Our Main Staff was in Mostar and all communications
5 went along those lines.
6 Q. Very well. Let me just pass on to paragraphs
7 54 and 55. There's been a suggestion in this case,
8 sir, that there was a concerted policy amongst Bosnian
9 Croats, presumably implemented through the HVO, of
10 persecuting Bosnian Muslim citizens. Could you give
11 the Trial Chamber any help with that? Could you tell
12 the Trial Chamber whether there was any such a policy
13 to your knowledge and, if so, how it was communicated?
14 A. I never heard of such political positions.
15 Had I heard of them, I never would have put on the
16 uniform, never.
17 Q. Why not?
18 A. So I never heard of it, and nobody ever
19 transmitted such policies to me. I put on the uniform
20 to fight again the Serbs. That was the only reason.
21 However, later on, the fighting turned to such kind of
22 fighting that I had to fight in order to protect my
23 family.
24 Q. You said that you never heard of such a
25 political position and that had you had, you would
Page 17331
1 never have put on the uniform. What do you mean by
2 that, Brigadier?
3 A. Never. Well, I wouldn't go into such an
4 army, that is for sure. I could not issue such orders;
5 I could not even receive such an order. I was brought
6 up to live in Bosnia-Herzegovina with all ethnic
7 groups. I was born there, I grew up there, and I will
8 try to continue to live until my last day in such a way
9 because Bosnia-Herzegovina is my homeland. I have no
10 other homeland.
11 Q. Are you aware of any orders given to HVO
12 troops to harass or persecute people of Muslim
13 ethnicity in the areas that are covered by the Central
14 Bosnia Operative Zone?
15 A. I wrote those orders, but not to persecute.
16 Such orders never existed. My operations staff wrote
17 up those orders, but they never were any -- and they
18 were never signed by Mr. Blaskic.
19 Q. What orders are you referring to?
20 A. The only things he signed was the use of
21 troops and to respect Geneva Conventions but no orders
22 to persecute the Muslims.
23 Q. Brigadier, have you ever heard of any such a
24 policy or position of persecution or harassment or
25 giving people of Muslim ethnicity a hard time being
Page 17332
1 advocated by Bosnian Croat military personnel or by any
2 political group or person?
3 A. No. I never heard of that.
4 Q. Let me just finish up quickly with you, sir.
5 The last subject, other than paragraph 60, which if
6 you -- you can, if asked about these matters, answer
7 questions about the massacre of Croats in Dusina,
8 Miletici, Krizancevo Selo, Buhine Kuce, and the other
9 places that you've mentioned; correct? If you were
10 asked?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. I'm not going to spend any time on that. Let
13 me just turn to paragraph 56. Could you just tell us:
14 Did you know Mr. Kordic before the war?
15 A. I did not know Mr. Kordic before the war.
16 Q. And how well did you know him during the
17 war?
18 A. During the war, I also knew him very
19 slightly. The activities that I was engaged in and
20 that he was in involved in were different. I was
21 engaged in military affairs; Mr. Kordic in civilian
22 affairs. I most frequently saw him in press
23 conferences, but on television mostly, if there was
24 power, that is. Very infrequently in the
25 headquarters. I rarely ever saw him, met him.
Page 17333
1 Q. Did you, during the entire time that you were
2 the Chief of Staff for the Operative Zone, talk to
3 Mr. Kordic about military matters at all?
4 A. As far as I can recollect, I never spoke to
5 Mr. Kordic about military issues. I was a soldier, I
6 had my commander, and I could only address those issues
7 with him and to my subordinates. If the civilian
8 authorities were involved, I could talk to them too,
9 but it never occurred that I talked to him.
10 Q. Did Colonel Blaskic ever tell you or suggest
11 to you that he was obliged in any way to take orders or
12 directions from Mr. Kordic in some fashion or that he
13 ever did so?
14 A. Mr. Blaskic never told me that Mr. Kordic
15 ever ordered him anything. They had conversations, but
16 I don't know about them.
17 Q. Did you ever hear that Mr. Kordic ever tried
18 to give or did give any orders or political directions
19 to Colonel Blaskic or anyone else in authority within
20 the HVO, sir?
21 A. I never heard of it.
22 Q. And finally, sir, my last question: Did
23 Mr. Kordic have any control, to your knowledge, over
24 the military police or the sub-units such as the Jokeri
25 or any special purpose unit within the HVO?
Page 17334
1 A. I never heard and I don't think so. I don't
2 think that there was any reason for it, because they
3 had their own superior commands.
4 MR. SAYERS: Thank you very much, Brigadier.
5 If you'd just wait, you may be asked some questions by
6 Mr. Cerkez's attorneys and then by counsel for the
7 Prosecution.
8 Cross-examined by Mr. Kovacic:
9 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Nakic. Brigadier, we had
10 occasion to talk briefly before you came in to give
11 evidence. Can you please answer several questions?
12 With my learned friend Mr. Sayers, you spoke through an
13 interpreter. You and I speak the same language. We
14 need to pause a little bit for interpretation. So if
15 you could please pause between questions and answers.
16 A clarification to start off, because you
17 lived in that region and today we heard several times
18 of a place called Bila. This is a town in Vitez.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And the other place which was mentioned, when
21 it is called Nova Bila, it is in Novi Travnik; is that
22 correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. The one that is in Vitez also is called
25 Stara, which means "Old Bila." And the one on the
Page 17335
1 other side in Novi Travnik is called Bila or Nova Bila,
2 "New Bila."
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. For people not from this area, this could be
5 slightly confusing at times.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. But the local people know fully well that if
8 one says "Bila," one refers to Nova Bila, and when one
9 refers to Stara Bila or Old Bila, one refers to the one
10 in the Vitez municipality; is that correct?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. The place where you lived is called Marasi?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that is actually one of the villages in
15 the Bila territory?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And it is located in the Vitez municipality?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. During the time that you spoke about, that is
20 to say, January 1993 and towards the end of January
21 1993 when the conflict came about in Busovaca, there
22 was no conflict in Vitez between the Bosnian Croats and
23 Bosnian Muslims, was there?
24 A. No.
25 Q. As far as the blockade of the road is
Page 17336
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14 English and French transcripts
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25
Page 17337
1 concerned, the road running through Vitez or goes along
2 the valley between Busovaca and Vitez, on the 20th of
3 October, 1992, at that time an event took place, let me
4 remind you, when in Ahmici there was a roadblock, and
5 there was an open conflict between the HVO units and
6 the BiH army from Ahmici. You know about that event,
7 of course.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. At that same time, one day previously on the
10 19th of October, the BH army set up a roadblock on the
11 same road but closer to your place, closer to Bila or,
12 more exactly, at the GP Bosna area in the Grbavica
13 region. A roadblock was also set up there; is that
14 correct?
15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. As far as I was able to learn, you yourself
17 were there personally because you, in fact, lived
18 there?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Could you tell us, please, who erected that
21 barricade, the roadblock, and what it looked like?
22 A. On the 19th of October at around 10.00, as I
23 was the local commander in the local community of Bila,
24 I was informed that a barricade had been set up below
25 Grbavica in the GP Bosna area. Grbavica itself is a
Page 17338
1 settlement inhabited by Muslims.
2 We heard that the road had been blocked
3 between Travnik and Vitez, or Busovaca and Kiseljak, if
4 you like. I was wearing civilian clothing, and I left
5 my house to go and see what was happening on the spot.
6 Underneath this Bosna area, there was a
7 tractor and a bus barricading the road, and some logs,
8 some timber. There were a lot of people there and
9 about ten soldiers. All the others were wearing
10 civilian clothing. On that road, the hodza, the imam
11 from Han Bila, was delivering an address, and Han Bila
12 is about ten kilometres away if you go to the north of
13 Stara Bila.
14 I asked the commander, my colleague Enver
15 Salkic, to discuss who had set up the barricade, and I
16 was told that he wasn't there. The hodza came up, the
17 imam from Han Bila, and he said, "I placed the
18 barricade -- I erected the barricade and I am in charge
19 here." And my answer to him was, "You can't be the
20 number 1 man while Enver and myself are there and
21 whilst there is a civilian authority. You go to your
22 own Han Bila and do what you like there, but we're
23 going to keep law and order here." He resisted that
24 and said Enver wasn't going to do anything.
25 But, nevertheless, two hours later Enver did
Page 17339
1 turn up, and the two of us, wearing civilian clothing,
2 had a reasonable conversation. This resulted in the
3 lifting of the barricade.
4 However, while I was there talking, on the
5 other side on the Croatian -- in the Croatian village
6 another barricade was set up and several trees were cut
7 down, plain trees, and the road was blocked. And I did
8 away with that blockade and the road was once again
9 free, gave free passage.
10 Q. Thank you very much. Brigadier, in your
11 opinion, did this incident demonstrate the tension that
12 existed at that time in the valley?
13 A. Yes. Once again, the involvement of other
14 people in the affairs of locals is, in fact, why the
15 conflict came about.
16 Q. While you did mediate to have the barricade
17 lifted, did you hear anything about the reason for
18 which the blockade had been erected in the first place
19 on the road?
20 A. Well, to prevent HVO passage along that
21 road. Our army was on its way to the front lines
22 facing the Serb army, and this is Vlasic, Jajce, and
23 the other regions, because it wasn't a war of the
24 Muslims, it was a war of the Croats against the Serbs.
25 And I don't know why they wanted to prevent the passage
Page 17340
1 of the army from Busovaca and Kiseljak towards the
2 front lines facing the Serbs.
3 Q. Brigadier, at that time on that particular
4 morning while you were dealing with this situation, did
5 you happen to hear that a barricade had been set up on
6 the road below Ahmici or not?
7 A. Yes, I did hear about that.
8 Q. And to make things clearer, were you
9 instructed in clearing up the matter or did you do this
10 at your own initiative because you were a local leader
11 with regard to the village guards?
12 A. Nobody instructed me, I did it on my own,
13 but --
14 Q. Thank you. As you mentioned the village
15 guards, could you clarify some points for me, please.
16 The village guards were basically set up in 1992 in the
17 villages; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, it is.
19 Q. They existed in most of the Croatian
20 villages, did they not, but they also existed in Muslim
21 villages?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Sometimes those guards, depending on their
24 composition, were mixed, a mixed composition; is that
25 correct?
Page 17341
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And depending on whether there were disputes
3 in the village or friendly terms, the composition of
4 these guards would change, would it not?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. In your own village of Marasi, it was a
7 purely Croatian village, was it not?
8 A. Yes, it was.
9 Q. And your village guard was established there
10 and existed there. What about the neighbouring
11 village?
12 A. Well, in the neighbouring village of
13 Sadovace, they also had a village guard set up there
14 too.
15 Q. And Sadovace was a predominantly Muslim
16 village, was it not?
17 A. Yes. The whole of Sadovace was a Muslim
18 village. Perhaps one household was Croatian.
19 Q. The second motive, the other motive for the
20 establishment of these village guards, was because you
21 feared each other, was that the reason, or was there
22 some other reason?
23 A. Well, the general situation that existed, and
24 that situation was caused, as I say, by the aggression
25 of the Serbian army on Bosnia-Herzegovina, and
Page 17342
1 therefore as my village was in the proximity of both
2 Vitez and Novi Travnik, which were shelled and bombed,
3 the Serbian front lines were very close by, some 15 or
4 16 kilometres away from my village. So it was quite
5 normal -- and this was the first condition for
6 establishing these guards, to protect and guard the
7 village, because the lines at Vlasic could flare up and
8 the Serbian army could start, and this could lead to
9 the expulsion of the population, its killing and so
10 on. So that was the first reason why people organised
11 themselves in these village guards and stood guard, to
12 guard the village.
13 Q. Brigadier, at that particular time the new
14 independent state of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina
15 had already been founded, had it not? Will you agree
16 with me that, de facto, the central government in that
17 state was not functioning and that one of the
18 situations upon which this was reflected was this
19 initiative on the part of the people to organise
20 themselves in the village?
21 A. Yes, that is another reason. There was no
22 power and authority at the level of the State of
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina, and even the authorities in the
24 municipality were somewhat divided. And then people
25 saw that some kind of organisation must exist for life
Page 17343
1 to evolve normally, as it had done up until then, and
2 that is why people had begun to form groups and
3 associations, and that is the second reason for which
4 these units or night watches were set up, village
5 guards, in the villages.
6 Q. At the same time, and we're still dealing
7 with 1992, crime was on the rise, was it not?
8 A. Yes. There was a general lack of law and
9 authority, law and order, and whenever that happens
10 there is theft and looting and an onslaught of
11 displaced persons and refugees looking for food, for
12 money, for everything, for cars, for property, taking
13 all this over.
14 And, of course, the third reason was the
15 organisation of those particular units, that is to say,
16 the village guards. That is the third -- or this
17 situation is the third reason which led to the
18 formation of these village guards in the villages
19 themselves.
20 Q. Thank you. The village guards, in the course
21 of 1992, were in no way formed within any military
22 organisation, either in the Muslim villages or the
23 Croatian villages; is that correct?
24 A. Yes, that is correct. They were independent
25 units, independent commanders. They were
Page 17344
1 self-proclaimed. Somebody in a village would say, "I
2 am the commander, I am going to be the leader. You are
3 going to be responsible for going to your shifts, for
4 guarding the front line," and so on. There was no
5 military organisation, in actual fact.
6 Q. Mr. Nakic, your people, that is to say, your
7 neighbours, elected you as the local commander of the
8 village guards; is that correct?
9 A. Yes. This took place in August. Somebody
10 suddenly had it in his mind to choose somebody with
11 some military training and was versed in matters of
12 organisation, and they found me and appointed me as the
13 local commander for two or three villages -- three or
14 four villages in the vicinity.
15 Q. Tell me something else with respect to the
16 village guards. Who armed these people? Where did
17 they get their weapons from?
18 A. Well, most of them did what they could,
19 fended for themselves.
20 Q. So there was no organised supply of weapons
21 at that time?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was there any difference on the Muslim and
24 Croatian side in that respect?
25 A. Well, it was the same on both sides --
Page 17345
1 Q. Thank you very much.
2 A. -- except for the fact that the Muslims did
3 have some weapons, which I don't know where they were.
4 Q. Thank you. Brigadier, the BH army, which
5 evolved from the Territorial Defence, to say the least,
6 at the end of 1992 and 1993, did have three basic or
7 even four basic strongholds in Vitez. In the Vitez
8 municipality, I mean. Could you please confirm this or
9 put me right if I'm wrong?
10 In Preocica, that is to say, the village on
11 the northern side of the road, the 325th BH Brigade had
12 its headquarters; is that correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Could you tell us, please -- give us a time
15 frame, when this was founded?
16 A. Well, it was sometime in October.
17 Q. In the autumn of 1992, approximately?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Thank you. In Kruscica, for the Kruscica and
20 Vranjska region, we had the 1st Battalion of the BH
21 army and its command and headquarters?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In Poculica, for the area of -- I apologise
24 to the interpreters. I'm being a little fast.
25 In Poculica, for the Poculica and Ahmici
Page 17346
1 region and the surrounding villages, the 2nd Battalion
2 was located of the 325th Brigade of the BH army; is
3 that correct?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And finally in Bukve, for the Bukve, Sadovace
6 and Grbavica area, there was the 3rd Battalion, was
7 there not?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. What was the outcome of the BH army at the
10 beginning of 1993? As we're now entering 1993, that
11 was the situation you came upon?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And the 4th was in Stari Vitez?
14 A. You're quite right, yes. The 4th was,
15 indeed, in Stari Vitez. I did have that in mind, but I
16 forgot to mention it. Thank you.
17 Q. As you have mentioned Stari Vitez, so that we
18 don't have to go back to the question later on, do you,
19 as a soldier, as a military man, agree that Vitez was a
20 military stronghold? Stari Vitez, I apologise.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you said that the 325th Brigade battalion
23 was there. Do you happen to know how many men the unit
24 numbered?
25 A. It numbered between six and seven hundred
Page 17347
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14 English and French transcripts
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Page 17348
1 soldiers.
2 Q. In Stari Vitez alone, you mean?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. You therefore consider that this included all
5 the conscripts who were, in fact, mobilised?
6 A. Yes. Everybody was mobilised.
7 Q. Do you agree that that unit was armed?
8 A. Well, not at first. But later on, yes.
9 Q. On the 16th of April, when the conflict took
10 place, it was armed?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you agree that despite the encirclement,
13 it did have some supply lines?
14 A. I think it did, yes.
15 Q. Do you agree that despite at least two
16 offensive military actions on the part of the HVO,
17 Stari Vitez resisted and the HVO did not succeed in the
18 taking of the region?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And that situation went on for approximately
21 11 months?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. As a military man and knowing the situation,
24 as you were there yourself, were you able to conclude
25 that it was a militarily-defended location?
Page 17349
1 A. I think that it was defended voluntarily in a
2 military fashion, yes.
3 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
4 [In English] Your Honour, just for the
5 record, but probably that will be corrected later on,
6 at line 19 the answer is registered not correctly. But
7 we will check that tomorrow.
8 Q. [Interpretation] Today you spoke a fair amount
9 about your role in the Joint Commission, in the Vitez
10 Commission. We will not revisit its function in
11 Busovaca. Let me try to sum up something, because I am
12 not sure whether I understand the relations.
13 The first level -- at the first level, you
14 were involved as a representative of the Central Bosnia
15 Operative Zone, and your counterpart from the 3rd Corps
16 was Dzemal Merdan?
17 A. That is correct.
18 Q. There were additional members there. You
19 could not remember all names. Vezir Jusufspahic?
20 A. Jusufspahic.
21 Q. He was one of Merdan's men?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Is it correct that he was a member of the
24 subcommittee regulating the passage, the free movement?
25 A. I'm sorry, I don't remember.
Page 17350
1 Q. Very well. At the lower level or the
2 sublevel of the Joint Commission, the details and
3 implementation of decisions and agreements made by you
4 were implemented?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And then the Vitez Brigade and the 333rd ABiH
7 Brigade were involved at this sublevel; is that
8 correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At this level, is it your recollection that
11 there were the same negotiators or were they ad hoc?
12 A. It was -- it operated on a permanent basis
13 and it implemented the decisions that we agreed on.
14 Q. The methods of work in this body were the
15 same as the methods employed in the Busovaca period?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. You had a morning meeting, briefing, you had
18 tours in the field, you discussed matters, and then you
19 offered solutions?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. This turned out to be a method that produced
22 results; correct?
23 A. Yes. There were good results.
24 Q. Brigadier, you know that Blaskic issued an
25 order in March of 1993 in which he appointed Mario
Page 17351
1 Cerkez commander of the Vitez Brigade?
2 A. Yes, I am familiar with that order.
3 Q. This was on the 23rd of March, to be
4 specific?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Brigadier, until then the brigade had not
7 existed; in fact, it was established then?
8 A. They did not exist.
9 Q. So we are talking about the new brigade in
10 the Vitez municipality starting around the 22nd, 23rd
11 of March, 1993?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. The "starting point," if I may put it in
14 quotes, it started out with the 2nd Battalion of the
15 Stjepan Tomasevic Brigade.
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And its commander was Major Anto Bertovic?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you know Anto Bertovic?
20 A. I knew Anto Bertovic because we were
21 neighbours. He's a young man who grew up in a fine
22 family. He went into the military academy. He was a
23 very intelligent and honourable man, and he would have
24 been a very fine soldier.
25 Q. Anto Bertovic was a professional soldier in
Page 17352
1 the JNA?
2 A. Yes. After the breakdown of the JNA, he left
3 it.
4 Q. In 1992 he joined the HVO?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I believe that Anto Bertovic was actively
7 involved in shifts against the Serbs and Chetniks in
8 both front lines in the north-west?
9 A. Yes, he was. He was leading a unit there.
10 Q. Very well. Thank you. When the open
11 conflict broke out on the 16th of April, as a soldier,
12 do you believe that the Vitez Brigade could have been
13 fully established?
14 A. Under no standards anywhere in the world
15 could it have been fully established, and the war came
16 to a close before it was fully established.
17 Q. Can I understand from this that, in fact --
18 and the establishment of this brigade was a continuing
19 process which went on until the end of the war?
20 A. In the time of peace it takes about six
21 months, and I know fully well what it takes to fully
22 establish it.
23 Q. Did you know, at least in basic terms, what
24 was the staff of the brigade? In other words, were
25 there any professional officers among them?
Page 17353
1 A. I believe with the exception of Bertovic,
2 there was no single professional soldier among them.
3 Q. But were there any people who had some
4 experience at least with the Ministry of Defence?
5 A. I think that there was one who had some
6 experience with the TO and one with the Ministry of
7 Defence work.
8 Q. Earlier, it was mentioned, and I believe it
9 may have been through the previous witness, but I would
10 like to clarify it: Would you agree that the ABiH, in
11 its offensives during 1993, tried to cut through the
12 Vitez pocket, at least in one area, and conquer the
13 area in that way?
14 A. Yes. The army tried to do it, and that is
15 between Slivcica and Kruscica. This is the narrowest
16 area of the pocket, the distance being only two
17 kilometres.
18 Q. As a layman, can I understand that that is
19 exactly why they tried to do it, because it was at its
20 narrowest?
21 A. Yes. And at Kruscica and Slivcica, they had
22 their strongest concentration of troops.
23 Q. If you had been the commander of the ABiH,
24 would you also have used that area for such a plan?
25 A. Yes, I would have, because not only the
Page 17354
1 distance but the configuration of terrain would have
2 led me to it.
3 Q. Brigadier --
4 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm going to refer
5 to milinfosum number 68, dated July 6th, which is
6 admitted as D58-2, but I don't think we have to put it
7 on the witness, because it's, anyway, on English,
8 anyway. It's just one sentence from one paragraph and
9 one sentence from another subject, another paragraph.
10 Q. [Interpretation] In a document of the British
11 Battalion of 6 July 1993, it is stated as follows: "As
12 communicated before, the last remaining supply route
13 for the HVO running through Sebesic has been cut off by
14 ABiH in the night of 2nd July, 1993." Does that
15 coincide with what you knew?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So can we agree that in early July, the last
18 land route of the Vitez pocket was cut off?
19 A. Yes. The last supply route for the HVO.
20 Q. After that there was no other supply, either
21 a weapons supply or food supply into the pocket?
22 A. There was nothing. Not even birds could fly
23 through.
24 Q. In the same milinfosum of the British
25 Battalion, in paragraph 4, I'm going to read the
Page 17355
1 passage and then ask you a question: "Fikret Cuskic,
2 commander of the 17th Krajina Brigade, claims that
3 Mario Cerkez, commander of the Vitez HVO Brigade, has
4 issued an order to his troops in which it says that all
5 ABiH soldiers who may be taken prisoner will be killed
6 and that awards will be given for parts of their
7 bodies, including 400 German marks for an ear and
8 400 for a finger. This information has apparently been
9 acquired from a captured HVO person on whom a cut off
10 ear was found."
11 A question for you: Have you ever heard that
12 any HVO commander in the Vitez pocket issued such an
13 order to his soldiers?
14 A. No. That is not true and this is a pure
15 lie. I never heard anything like that.
16 Q. Brigadier, earlier, you mentioned Blaskic's
17 position and orders which issued from such positions.
18 Had any subordinate commander, subordinate to Blaskic,
19 issued such an order -- and you know Blaskic very
20 well -- how would Blaskic have reacted?
21 A. Knowing Blaskic as a man, I think that he
22 would have had a personal confrontation with such a
23 person.
24 Q. Thank you. Brigadier, would you agree with
25 me -- first of all, have you ever heard of this person,
Page 17356
1 Fikret Cuskic?
2 A. Yes. He was an intelligence officer in the
3 former JNA, and I believe he was well-versed in
4 propaganda. In the former JNA he was an intelligence
5 officer.
6 Q. So you will agree with me that such
7 information could have been part of the propaganda war
8 or the intelligence war, if you will?
9 A. Yes. And it could have been enforced.
10 Q. Now, Brigadier, the 17th Krajina Brigade had
11 the reputation of being an aggressive brigade?
12 A. Yes. They caused a lot of fear among the
13 Croatian population.
14 Q. Rumours went around that they were involved
15 in crimes against civilian population?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. According to these rumours, was that the most
18 notorious or the most odious unit of the ABiH?
19 A. After the 7th Muslim Brigade, it was the
20 second most notorious one.
21 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm just about to
22 go on the next subject, and I think it would be
23 probably be a very convenient time for recess.
24 JUDGE MAY: How much longer do you anticipate
25 being?
Page 17357
1 MR. KOVACIC: I'm quite confident, Your
2 Honour, that I could wrap up this in less than an
3 hour.
4 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn it up
5 now.
6 Brigadier Nakic, could you remember, please,
7 not to speak to anybody about your evidence during the
8 adjournment and indeed until it is over, and that does
9 include members of the Defence team.
10 Would you be back, please, at half past two.
11 A. I understand.
12 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.00 p.m.
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Page 17359
1 --- On resuming at 2.34 p.m.
2 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Mikulicic.
3 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honour,
4 before we resume, a very small comment.
5 I observed an error in the transcript at page
6 86, when the witness was asked whether Stari Vitez was
7 a defended position and he said, "Yes, very well
8 defended," and the transcript reflects that he said
9 that it was defended voluntarily. So that is the
10 correction which we would like entered.
11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
12 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.
13 Your Honours, may I continue?
14 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
15 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you.
16 Q. Brigadier, in the course of 1992, towards the
17 end of the year, as you know, an inter-municipal
18 brigade was established. It was named Stjepan
19 Tomasevic, and it was headquartered in Novi Travnik?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. This brigade was established and financed by
22 two municipalities, Novi Travnik and Vitez?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Mr. Nakic, would you agree that the only and
25 exclusive task of this brigade and their zone of
Page 17360
1 responsibility were in the north-west, that is, due
2 north-west of Travnik on the front line against the
3 aggressor?
4 A. Yes. This was Strikano Simesan [phoen],
5 Slatka Vodica, and Komenjas. That is how the defence
6 line ran.
7 Q. Later on in the course of 1993, as we already
8 mentioned today, in the latter part of March 1993 the
9 Vitez Brigade was established as a municipal brigade
10 for the Vitez municipality, and it continued to hold
11 and maintain the line against the JNA and their
12 paramilitary allies, the local Serbs?
13 A. Yes, but it was not established. An order on
14 its establishment was issued.
15 Q. In other words, you're trying to say that it
16 did not exist in reality at the time when the order was
17 actually issued?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Mr. Nakic, yesterday we heard from your
20 colleague, Witness Filipovic, a fairly detailed
21 account, and I'm not going to recount it here, that
22 sometime in the middle of 1993 -- in fact, let me
23 correct myself, 1992 -- there was a lot of talk and
24 attempts were made to establish a joint brigade which
25 would include both the HVO and the TO in order to
Page 17361
1 reinforce the defence against the JNA and the Serbs.
2 In that context, one of the attempts was mentioned in
3 these meetings. It was supposed to be called the 1st
4 Vitez Brigade. You were nominated --
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, we'll get on more
6 quickly if we can just have quick questions, please.
7 There's no need to go over what's been said earlier.
8 Can we move more quickly?
9 MR. KOVACIC: I certainly will, Your Honour.
10 The intention was to make it shorter, but obviously
11 it's not good enough.
12 [Interpretation] Can I ask the usher's
13 assistance to distribute a document and place it in
14 front of the witness so we can speed things up,
15 please.
16 Q. Mr. Nakic, you will get the document
17 momentarily. Would you please review it and tell us
18 whether you can say whether this document was a product
19 of these attempts which we have just mentioned.
20 A. Yes. This document is a proposal for the 1st
21 Vitez Brigade which was to be established in Vitez, and
22 its composition would have been mixed. The Crisis
23 Staff tabled this idea, the Crisis Staff headed by
24 Mr. Santic.
25 Q. In other words, Mr. Nakic, this was a
Page 17362
1 municipal initiative?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. In Vitez?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. You know, of course, that unfortunately this
6 plan was never implemented?
7 A. A number of people met in the TO
8 headquarters, and its commander was Hakija. We
9 compiled this document. We sent it for confirmation,
10 but we never received any reply.
11 Q. This document, as it is drafted, says that
12 all involved parties should agree to this document?
13 A. Yes, that they should agree to it.
14 Q. On the one side, it's the HVO and the HDZ,
15 and on the other side, the TO and the SDA; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. The fact is that you received no reply to it,
19 but do you know who did not agree to it? Did you ever
20 receive an answer?
21 A. We never received an answer, so I do not know
22 who did not agree to it.
23 Q. Very well. Do you know whether there were
24 any other steps taken, preparatory steps, to establish
25 this brigade; for example, that their ID cards were
Page 17363
1 printed already?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And there were some steps taken in the
4 logistics area?
5 A. We established a logistics service to do
6 these things, but nothing actually happened.
7 Q. And all this was done in order to reinforce
8 the defence against the JNA?
9 A. Yes.
10 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Can I please
11 have a number for this document?
12 THE REGISTRAR: Document will be marked
13 D67/2.
14 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Mr. Nakic, did you, in the course of 1993,
16 have any contacts, in the military sense of the word,
17 with the accused Mr. Cerkez?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Did you ever talk to him regarding the
20 organisation of the defence lines?
21 A. You mean against the Serbian army?
22 Q. Yes.
23 A. No. Only when I was appointed to the staff
24 did I get involved in that.
25 Q. Which was later?
Page 17364
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Did you know whether Cerkez was involved in
3 any significant operations against the Serbs in 1992?
4 A. Yes, I heard of such operations.
5 Q. Mr. Nakic, you told us that you came to the
6 Central Bosnia Operative Zone after it had been moved
7 to the Hotel Vitez, immediately after it was moved
8 there. Do you know why it was transferred from
9 Kruscica down to the town of Vitez?
10 A. I don't know the reason.
11 Q. During your examination-in-chief, you
12 mentioned Zoran Matosevic, an HVO soldier who was
13 killed during the melee surrounding the convoy and that
14 he just happened to be around in uniform and carrying a
15 weapon. Do you know where that was?
16 A. In Stara Bila near the restaurant Brale,
17 which is about a hundred metres from this soldier's
18 house.
19 Q. Thank you. Brigadier, is it true, in
20 relation to the convoy, that the problems with the
21 convoy -- that the incident started in the territory of
22 Novi Travnik?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Is it true that once the convoy made it to
25 Vitez that this was an attempt to consolidate the
Page 17365
1 convoy and secure its passage?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know that one of the places where the
4 vehicles were supposed to be gathered was in the quarry
5 in Mosunj?
6 A. I heard about that.
7 Q. Very well. Mr. Nakic, given your position in
8 the Central Bosnia Operative Zone, I would like you to
9 answer me whether you know that there existed an MTD,
10 which is Motorised Artillery Division. Did it exist?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Do you remember who was its commander?
13 A. There were several Commanders, but at first I
14 would --
15 Q. Who was the first?
16 A. Bratunac.
17 Q. And after him?
18 A. Ramljak.
19 Q. Thank you. In the structure of Central
20 Bosnia Operative Zone, in addition to this MTD, there
21 was something called PZO or anti-aircraft defence?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Who was its commander?
24 A. I think the first name may be Nikica, last
25 name Hakic. I'm not sure. I can't recall.
Page 17366
1 Q. Of course, and a lot of time has passed. Was
2 this perhaps a person who had a skin disease which was
3 characteristic of him; psoriasis?
4 A. That was Josip Ramljak. And Zvonko Bajo was
5 the deputy artilleryman.
6 Q. In this MTD unit, according to the
7 establishment, did it include guns of calibre
8 120 millimetre and higher?
9 A. Yes, 120 and up.
10 Q. Very well. And as far as the PZO, the
11 anti-aircraft defence is concerned, is it true that
12 they possessed a 40-millimetre PAT, a 20-millimetre
13 one, and 12.7-multiple-barrel or single-barrel PAMs?
14 A. I think so.
15 Q. Do you know the provenance of these weapons?
16 A. The PATs belonged to the SPS, Slobodan
17 Princip Seljo factory, and some of them came from the
18 anti-aircraft defence.
19 Q. And these two units were also subordinate to
20 the commander of the --
21 A. -- Operative Zone.
22 Q. Yes. That is what I was trying to say.
23 Mr. Nakic, I want to move to another area which I don't
24 think has been touched so far. You worked in a textile
25 factory in Vitez?
Page 17367
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. It produced uniforms?
3 A. Before the war.
4 Q. You mean during 1992?
5 A. In 1992.
6 Q. It was producing for the open market?
7 A. Yes. It was market oriented.
8 Q. Did it also produce things for the HVO?
9 A. No, for the TO.
10 Q. Oh, you mean TO as well?
11 A. Exclusively TO.
12 Q. And the HVO never bought anything from them?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is it true that this factory was attacked?
15 A. Yes. Fifty uniforms were taken.
16 Q. When was this?
17 A. In the spring of 1992.
18 Q. Mr. Nakic, did people talk during the war
19 that at some instances BH army used uniforms that did
20 not belong to it?
21 A. I did not hear of that.
22 Q. During your examination-in-chief today, you
23 said something about the soldiers in the Vitez area who
24 wore the HV patches even after they were warned not to
25 do so, and you said that you could name some names. Is
Page 17368
1 it true that one of these individuals was Kreso Garic?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Do you know that Kreso Garic lived in Gacice?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you perhaps know that Kreso Garic
6 literally lived in Zagreb and in Gacice before the
7 war?
8 A. Yes. He lived in Gacice and then moved to
9 Zagreb.
10 JUDGE MAY: What is the relevance of all this
11 detail? How is it going to assist us?
12 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, the relevance --
13 there is a claim that soldiers with HV patches were in
14 the units in the Viteska Brigade.
15 JUDGE MAY: Yes. And the witness has given
16 an explanation already.
17 MR. KOVACIC: If I may, Your Honour, one of
18 the explanations, particularly for this person, and I
19 know some others, is that they actually, before the
20 war, lived in two places, in Zagreb and in Vitez, and
21 it was only natural, being a volunteer in that war in
22 the Republic of Croatia and when that finished or
23 calmed down, better to say, they joined.
24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Put it quickly, could
25 you, please, Mr. Kovacic.
Page 17369
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Page 17370
1 MR. KOVACIC: I think we are done.
2 Q. [Interpretation] So you agree that Kreso
3 Garic lived both in Zagreb and Gacice?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Do you know that he was a volunteer in
6 Croatia?
7 A. Yes, I know this.
8 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.
9 Brigadier, thank you for your answers, and I have no
10 further questions.
11 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:
12 Q. Just before I forget, Brigadier -- and I'm
13 asking you some questions for the Prosecution -- just
14 before I forget, the truth about Kreso Garic, is it not
15 or was it not, that in fact he lived in Zagreb for 18
16 years, as I think we've heard in evidence in this case,
17 and came back especially to fight in this war, and he's
18 returned to Zagreb since; correct?
19 A. No, that is not correct. Kreso grew up in
20 Vitez, went to school in Vitez, and when he came to
21 Vitez from Zagreb, he was almost 30 years old.
22 Therefore, it was because he could not get work in
23 Bosnia-Herzegovina that he went to Zagreb for a time
24 and lived there. I know the family well. I know his
25 brother and his sister and his mother, I know them
Page 17371
1 personally. I know where their house is. I know
2 everything about him, and that is the truth.
3 Q. Was it 18 years that he had been in Zagreb?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Let's go to some other general matters
6 first.
7 Have you made any other statements, apart
8 from the summary that you have before you or you had
9 before you? Have you still got that summary with you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Why not?
12 A. I just gave the statement which I signed.
13 Q. Yes. I mean have you physically got that
14 summary with you that you've been looking at this
15 morning?
16 A. I haven't got it at the moment.
17 Q. Where have you put it?
18 A. It's in my bag. I didn't think I needed it.
19 Q. Because although I didn't ask to look at it,
20 it's different from the version we've got. Is it a
21 document in your own language?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. You've signed the English version. Have you
24 signed the original Croatian-language version?
25 A. No, just the English-language version. But I
Page 17372
1 read it through beforehand and saw what it said in my
2 mother tongue, in Croatian, and I consider that this
3 English-language version is the same because it was
4 translated for me on the spot.
5 Q. It's right, isn't it, this morning that from
6 time to time, in fact quite regularly -- and I don't
7 blame you for this -- you were, in fact, looking at and
8 reading from the version that you had open in front of
9 you?
10 A. Just to recollect the dates and the time at
11 which things happened.
12 Q. I'll go back to my first question. Have you
13 made any other statements at all to any other
14 authorities?
15 A. I gave a statement for the Defence of
16 Mr. Blaskic, and a statement for the Defence of
17 Mr. Kupreskic, and this statement which I gave now for
18 this Defence.
19 Q. But you haven't given any statements to
20 police or intelligence or military authorities about
21 the events with which we are concerned, or have you?
22 A. No, I didn't give them to anyone.
23 Q. And when were you first asked to think back,
24 by lawyers acting for Mr. Kordic, in order that your
25 summary or statement might be prepared?
Page 17373
1 A. On the 30th of March, exactly, this year.
2 Q. You, in your position as Chief of Staff,
3 spent many hours and days with Blaskic, didn't you?
4 A. Yes, but from June onwards. Up until June,
5 very little. I was more with international
6 organisations and Mr. Merdan than I was with
7 Mr. Blaskic.
8 Q. Give us an idea then, please, of the degree
9 of time you were with him. Was it every day, part of
10 the day, or was it one day a week or whatever? You
11 tell us.
12 A. Up to the formation of the commission in
13 Busovaca, I can say that was the whole of January when
14 we worked on the organisation of the staff and the
15 units. And then the whole time in Busovaca, apart
16 from, let's say, two or three hours a week because of
17 formations. And then in the Joint Command, very
18 rarely, only for information purposes. I informed him
19 of the situation and received orders from him. So that
20 period, it is true, I was not with Blaskic a great
21 deal. But from June on, I was with him constantly.
22 Q. And from June on, you'll be able to confirm
23 that he was a meticulous keeper of records of
24 everything that was going on?
25 A. All the officers of the HVO had their
Page 17374
1 official notes which they kept at meetings. I myself
2 had an official note of this kind, and so did
3 Mr. Blaskic, and everything that was done in the course
4 of the day or the course of the night, and these notes
5 existed. I think that Mr. Blaskic had his notes as
6 well.
7 Q. Your notes cover the whole period of time,
8 including the period when you were working on the Joint
9 Commission?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Where are those notes now?
12 A. I gave my notes to friends of General Blaskic
13 in 1996. I have received information that they have
14 been destroyed and no longer exist. They are five
15 books or notebooks. So at the end of 1996 for them to
16 serve him. They were of use to him.
17 Q. According to what you've been told, how did
18 it come about that your notes were destroyed?
19 A. I didn't go into the matter. I just haven't
20 got the notes, that's all.
21 Q. Help me, please. These are your own notes of
22 this war. They must obviously be of potential
23 importance to you and to others facing a trial;
24 correct?
25 A. Yes. Those notes meant my life to me at
Page 17375
1 that period from 1992 to 1996, and as I was the Chief
2 of Staff with Mr. Blaskic and also a great friend of
3 his, I had no reason not to give those notes. However,
4 it happened, and I really regret it, because those
5 notes might come in use tomorrow for the writing of
6 history and ultimately for my granddaughter as well,
7 for her to know where her grandfather was so she
8 shouldn't be ashamed of it.
9 Q. And to which friends did you give these notes
10 that they were destroyed?
11 A. It was the escort of Mr. Blaskic.
12 Q. Do you know the name?
13 A. Thomas.
14 Q. That's the total name or is there another
15 part to the name?
16 A. That's just his name. I don't know his
17 surname.
18 Q. And were these notes supposed to go to
19 Blaskic's lawyers or were they supposed to go to
20 Blaskic?
21 A. To Mr. Blaskic directly.
22 Q. Do you know, one way or another, whether he
23 ever made them available to his lawyers, who of course
24 saw you for the preparation of a statement?
25 A. I'm not aware of that.
Page 17376
1 Q. So who destroyed them?
2 A. I don't know.
3 Q. How do you know they were destroyed?
4 A. Well, I received that information.
5 Q. Yes. From?
6 A. Well, I heard, but not from Thomas. I heard
7 that those notes no longer existed.
8 Q. Was there anything in those notes, Brigadier,
9 that could have been damaging to Blaskic's case?
10 A. I don't think there was anything. It was
11 just my daily assignments, what I did in the
12 commissions and at my work post. There was nothing
13 detrimental to Blaskic. Blaskic probably needed them
14 because of the dates and the sequence of events that
15 took part as to that international commission and
16 everything else that happened on the ground, because I
17 kept them very diligently, the days, the months, the
18 time and everything else. Apart from that, there was
19 nothing interesting for the Blaskic Defence case.
20 Q. Did you record in those notes your attitude
21 to what happened at Ahmici?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Are you sure?
24 A. Sure, I'm sure.
25 Q. Is it possibly the case -- and I'll return to
Page 17377
1 this much later, but think about it, please -- is it
2 possibly the case that you entered somewhere, as a
3 record perhaps to safeguard your own position,
4 reservations about what was being done by Blaskic?
5 A. Certainly, no.
6 Q. You had quite a lot of encounters with
7 officers from BritBat, didn't you?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Honourable men, were they?
10 A. Yes. Very honourable men, I would say.
11 Q. Did you find them to be evenhanded in their
12 approach to the warring factions?
13 A. Where I was located at all events, yes.
14 Q. You never saw them or felt them -- in their
15 analysis of events or description of events, you never
16 thought them to be bias, in favour of one side or the
17 other?
18 A. No, I didn't have occasion to notice that
19 from what I saw.
20 Q. I have to tell you that Colonel Stewart spoke
21 well of you and of your qualities, so that you can know
22 that the views are reciprocated.
23 In April '92, you weren't involved in all
24 this, of course, but were you aware of the formation of
25 the HVO in April '92?
Page 17378
1 A. I don't understand your question.
2 Q. When was the HVO first formed?
3 A. I have already said that the HVO was formed
4 from the units -- the village units, the village
5 guards, and that was on the 8th of April, and that they
6 were the first units to stand guard in the villages.
7 And it was from these units that the HVO units were
8 formed later on in the course of the war itself. And
9 on the 8th -- that is, on the 8th of April, 1992.
10 Q. Were you aware of what sort of political
11 structures, what sort of political activity, lay behind
12 the creation of the HVO?
13 A. I'm not aware of that. I was a man outside
14 politics, and I joined the HVO only because I felt that
15 I should be there, and that is because I wanted to
16 defend Bosnia-Herzegovina from the Serbian aggression.
17 Q. Are you telling us that you had no
18 understanding that the HVO was connected to the
19 HDZ-BiH?
20 A. The HVO, for me, were the units of the
21 Croatian people which organised themselves in order to
22 fight against the Serbs, for those purposes.
23 Q. Were you not aware of any connection between
24 the HVO and the Community of Herceg-Bosna?
25 A. Herceg-Bosna was a community of the Croatian
Page 17379
1 people which was proclaimed in order to set up power
2 and authority in Bosnia-Herzegovina because there was
3 general chaos and so it was established in that
4 manner. In Herceg-Bosna, at that time, in order to
5 organise the Croatian people, the authorities were
6 formed and the government was formed and the commands
7 were set up with the task of establishing an army of
8 the Croatian people.
9 Q. And so you were aware that what you were
10 joining -- Is this correct? -- was a Croatian rather
11 than a mixed army?
12 A. Not the Croatian army but an army of the
13 HVO.
14 Q. Of Croats as opposed to an army of Croats and
15 Muslims. You were aware that you were joining such an
16 army?
17 A. I joined up in this army because the HVO in
18 my village where I joined was a purely Croatian
19 village.
20 Q. You could have joined the BiH but you chose
21 to join the HVO. You're saying this was simply by
22 chance because of where you lived or was this a choice
23 that you made?
24 A. I joined up in the place where I lived, and
25 where I lived, the HVO -- there is no BH army in my
Page 17380
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Page 17381
1 place of living. All that was organised were the night
2 watches and the night watchmen, and I joined them,
3 these village guards. At any rate, the BH army didn't
4 exist at the time.
5 Q. The reason I ask you these questions is from
6 what you've been saying this morning, it might be
7 thought that you're suggesting that this entire war
8 was -- not the entire war, but the war between the
9 Bosnians and the Croats was caused entirely by
10 territorial ambition of the Bosnian Muslims. Is that
11 what you're saying?
12 A. I said, and I won't deny it, that that is my
13 opinion, that the war in Central Bosnia arose because
14 of the pre-tensions in Central Bosnia by the refugees
15 from Krajina and Eastern Bosnia, and the war would
16 never have come about in Bosnia and Central Bosnia were
17 it not for these refugees and people that came in from
18 elsewhere.
19 Q. Yes. I think you made the point that people
20 lived well together before the war, but once, for
21 whatever reason, disquiet started, are you saying that
22 everything was caused by the territorial ambition of
23 the Muslims?
24 A. Yes, the Muslims, but those who came to the
25 territory of Central Bosnia.
Page 17382
1 Q. I see. Do you allow at all for the
2 possibility that the creation of the Community of
3 Herceg-Bosna had its own territorial ambitions?
4 A. I am not aware of that.
5 Q. Well, now, staying with May of 1992, and I
6 may have to come back a little later to deal with some
7 documents in relation to this, in May where were you?
8 Where were you living?
9 A. I lived in my village, Marasi. I worked in a
10 children's clothing factory.
11 Q. Which was in which town?
12 A. Vitez. The municipality of Vitez.
13 Q. And the roads were open at that stage?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Were you aware of the takeover by the HVO of
16 key installations in your neighbouring town of
17 Busovaca, not very many kilometres away?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Because by the middle of May, from what you
20 can see, there could be no justification for that,
21 could there?
22 A. According to me, no.
23 Q. Were you aware that the Territorial Defence
24 was subject of an order of annulment or dissolution?
25 A. No. For -- I don't know such piece of news.
Page 17383
1 Q. Who would have the authority to give, to make
2 such an order, in your judgement, at that time,
3 please? Who would have the authority to dissolve the
4 Territorial Defence?
5 A. Only the Crisis Staff, which was joint at the
6 time, but I'm not sure that it issued it.
7 Q. So that if an order was made by Mr. Kordic,
8 that wouldn't really be justified, would it, on your
9 own account of events at the time?
10 A. It would not be justified. I'm sure he
11 didn't issue it.
12 Q. Were you aware, still outside the army, but
13 were you aware of agreements about the distribution of
14 weapons, that is, the weapons of the JNA, between
15 different interest groups?
16 A. No, I did not know of that. I was working in
17 the economic sector. I was not familiar with these
18 things.
19 Q. Again, would it surprise you if, at that
20 time, such an agreement, an agreement to divide
21 weapons, was annulled simply by the hand of Mr. Kordic
22 and Mr. Brnada in Busovaca? Would that surprise you?
23 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
24 my apology. Objection. The witness said that he had
25 no personal knowledge of this. I don't know why
Page 17384
1 counsel is pursuing this questioning.
2 JUDGE MAY: He can ask the witness about it.
3 Whether the answer is of great assistance, I rather
4 doubt.
5 MR. NICE:
6 Q. Were you aware -- I'll just get the full
7 name -- of a man called Zarko Andric, also known as
8 Zuti?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. On the 11th of May of 1992, he expelled a
11 Muslim from his home in Nova Bila. You must have been
12 aware about that.
13 A. No, I was not aware of it.
14 Q. Nova Bila is known to you rather well, isn't
15 it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Such an incident would be hard not to learn
18 of, wouldn't it? How could you not have known of it if
19 it happened?
20 A. Perhaps it was an isolated case, but I told
21 you I did not get involved in such things. I was doing
22 my own work. A lot of citizens did not get involved.
23 This incident could have taken place, but it may have
24 been an individual case, so I don't know about it.
25 Q. We'll return to Zuti later, but when you were
Page 17385
1 eventually working for Blaskic, you never learned of
2 Zuti having been expelling a Muslim or Muslims, and you
3 certainly never learnt of his being disciplined by
4 Blaskic for it, did you?
5 A. No, I never knew that.
6 Q. On the 21st of May did you ever -- on the
7 21st of May there was a killing of a person named
8 Trako. Did you ever hear of that at all?
9 A. No.
10 Q. You've given some very emphatic opinions
11 about Mr. Kordic's authority or limited authority. Was
12 that built on what you discovered both from dealing
13 with him but also from being close to Blaskic?
14 A. During the war, I met Kordic on several
15 occasions. I very rarely spoke about Kordic with
16 Blaskic. We just did not have time. On the basis of
17 the close relationship which I developed with him, I
18 saw him as an honourable man.
19 Q. You see, I want to you look at a document,
20 please. Exhibit 120 it will be.
21 JUDGE MAY: This has been exhibited, has it?
22 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. It's already been
23 exhibited. Sorry. Exhibit 120.
24 Q. I'd just ask you this, if you'd look at it,
25 please -- it's before your time, of course, but I want
Page 17386
1 your comment on it. It's an order of the 1st of June,
2 from the Croatian Community in Busovaca, whereby the
3 Vares municipal headquarters is ordered to send a unit
4 of 30 soldiers, on receipt of the order, to Tarcin Do
5 because of the imminent danger, and it's signed by
6 Kostroman and Kordic.
7 Now, are you saying that that doesn't fit
8 with your experience of Kordic at the time you were
9 working for Blaskic?
10 A. Yes, I see this order, and I believe it does
11 not fit into the command. I see Kordic's signature,
12 but he could not have commanded units.
13 Q. You see, as Chief of Staff, you were very
14 close to Blaskic and, therefore, you may know a great
15 deal, you may know a great deal about what happened
16 militarily, and I wondered if you have any explanation
17 for how this sort of order could come into being, from
18 what you've subsequently discovered.
19 A. This was during the period of time when I was
20 not with the staff, and I don't know how it came to
21 be.
22 Q. Thank you. One possibility to which I'm
23 going to return, and I'd like you to have it in mind,
24 is this: That although you were used for certain tasks
25 by Blaskic, you may have been, to some degree, an
Page 17387
1 outsider and that your views didn't entirely match
2 his. Is that a possibility?
3 A. I was subordinate to Blaskic. I carried out
4 Blaskic's orders. Whatever he ordered, I carried out,
5 so there were no contradictory views in relation to
6 what Blaskic communicated to me and what I communicated
7 back to him.
8 Q. On the 19th of June of 1992, the municipal
9 buildings and the police station in Vitez were taken
10 over by HOS soldiers. Do you remember that?
11 A. I only heard of it. But, no, I don't
12 remember how it happened, because at the time I was not
13 there. I heard about it as a citizen.
14 Q. When you say you weren't there, you mean you
15 weren't there in the area or you just weren't there on
16 that particular day?
17 A. No, I heard it happened, but I was not there,
18 not at the site. I had not passed by that place in
19 those days. I had no business in the area.
20 Q. And with which group did you associate HOS at
21 that time, the HVO or the BiH?
22 A. Initially, HOS was both associated with the
23 TO and the HVO.
24 Q. Was there an attack on Novi Travnik, wider
25 than just the incident involving the municipal building
Page 17388
1 and the police station, on that same day in the
2 evening?
3 A. I know very little about the attack on Novi
4 Travnik. At that time, I was in my own village. I
5 could hear fire, but I know next to nothing about what
6 went on in Novi Travnik.
7 Q. But by that time, Brigadier, citizen as you
8 were rather than soldier, the Muslims hadn't done
9 anything to bring on themselves such an attack, had
10 they?
11 A. I don't know. But there were incidents
12 provoked by both sides, blockade of roads and other
13 things. Inner frictions within the TO headquarters, I
14 heard about that too. I believe that we were unable to
15 form the 1st Vitez Brigade because of these frictions
16 within the TO headquarters, which at that time still
17 had both Croats and Muslims as its members.
18 Q. By "friction within the headquarters", do you
19 mean that the Territorial Defence declined to surrender
20 to the HVO? Is that what you mean by "friction"?
21 A. No. I don't even know that it was supposed
22 to surrender.
23 MR. NICE: Incidentally, Your Honour, the
24 last exhibit marked as produced, there may be some
25 ambiguity about its production because there's still a
Page 17389
1 small outstanding issue on exhibits, their production
2 and so on, obviously which shouldn't take the time of
3 the Court when there are witnesses available. By way
4 of belt and braces, may I produce it, if necessary.
5 May the witness see Exhibit 139, please.
6 Q. This again is outside your period of military
7 involvement, and it relates to the Croatian Defence
8 Council in Vares, and it's an order that that council
9 should allow uninterrupted activity to the Croatian
10 Defence Council of Ilijas. Now -- and to provide them
11 with an office. When you were working for Blaskic,
12 Vares was subject to his general command, was it?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Would you expect this sort of matter to be
15 dealt with by a military person or by a politician?
16 A. Only military personnel.
17 Q. We see, don't we, that it's signed by
18 Kostroman and Kordic. Does that seem surprising to
19 you, in view of the amount of information you were able
20 to get later?
21 A. I never heard of this and I did not know of
22 such orders. But in my view, if there was a Central
23 Bosnia Operative Zone command, it was supposed to issue
24 orders.
25 Q. Now, in the summer of 1992, again still
Page 17390
1 before your actual involvement, there were oath-taking
2 ceremonies and matters of that sort. Did you ever go
3 to any of them?
4 A. No, I never did.
5 Q. Did you see --
6 A. I was never present, nor did I ever take
7 oath.
8 Q. Did you see any of these events on the
9 television?
10 A. I saw it somewhere.
11 Q. Did it worry you that there were these
12 parades of single-ethnic-group soldiers taking oaths of
13 the type they did?
14 A. I never thought about it. I didn't have much
15 interest in such events.
16 Q. By the time of, say, an oath-taking in the
17 summer of 1992, the Muslims hadn't done anything to
18 justify themselves being subjugated, subject to the
19 Croats, had they?
20 A. I don't know that.
21 Q. Exhibit 202, please.
22 While it's coming, you'll be able to tell us
23 a little bit about the payment of troops. How were
24 troops paid? We'll look at the exhibit in a minute, if
25 that's all right. How were troops paid, Brigadier?
Page 17391
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
14 English and French transcripts
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 17392
1 A. When I arrived at the Operative Zone command,
2 there were no salaries, there were no payrolls, in the
3 army. I did not receive any salary until the end of
4 1994, so I don't know how the salaries were paid out,
5 whether it was out of the municipal budget. But
6 personally I never received a salary until sometime in
7 December 1994.
8 Q. Very well, then. Let's just look at this
9 note and see whether you have a comment to make on it.
10 It's a handwritten note purporting to be signed by
11 Ivica Rajic, and it reads: "In connection with
12 financial allowances for soldiers of your AB municipal
13 headquarters, Mr. Pejcinovic and Malbasic are to report
14 urgently to Mr. Dario Kordic." It's nearly the time
15 when you become involved, only a couple of months to
16 go. From what you discovered when you did join up, can
17 you explain how he would have the responsibility for
18 funding soldiers in the way described?
19 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, we objected to
20 this. I don't know what the -- I don't have my list of
21 objections with me and I don't know whether the
22 objections to this document were overruled. But
23 obviously --
24 JUDGE MAY: [Indiscernible]
25 MR. SAYERS: All right. I think that the
Page 17393
1 witness should be asked first has he seen this document
2 before, and if he has, then obviously questions about
3 it would be worthwhile. But I seem to recall that when
4 we were showing documents to people, during the course
5 of our examination, that they had not seen before, we
6 were not permitted to ask them any questions about it,
7 and probably justifiably so.
8 JUDGE MAY: The witness can be asked to
9 comment upon it.
10 MR. NICE: I'm quite happy to also ask the
11 question that Mr. Sayers would like to ask, for
12 completeness on this occasion.
13 Q. Have you, in fact, seen this document before?
14 A. No, never.
15 Q. Of course, Blaskic's headquarters would be
16 responsible for all matters, including salaries and
17 payments when they could be made, wouldn't it?
18 A. It should be, but I know that there were no
19 salaries.
20 Q. And therefore records in the office of this
21 meticulous record keeper did exist at the end of the
22 war, you would confirm, dealing with, amongst other
23 matters, this sort of topic; correct?
24 A. These notes are not necessarily true.
25 MR. NICE: Very well. May we have Exhibit
Page 17394
1 229, please.
2 And you remember my initial question about
3 whether this conflict arose from the territorial
4 ambitions of the Muslims or not? It's only because of
5 the way you described it that I'm asking you about
6 certain of these matters.
7 Now, this is a document that you won't have
8 seen before, and I'm only laying it before you so that
9 you can know why it is that I'm asking you the question
10 I am. This is the minutes of a meeting of the 30th of
11 the September of 1992.
12 Now, if in the course of that meeting --
13 JUDGE MAY: There should be a copy on the
14 ELMO.
15 MR. NICE: Yes, of course. Could the English
16 version go on the ELMO.
17 Q. Now, if in the course of this discussion --
18 the discussion, of course you didn't know about it, but
19 if in the course of this discussion Mr. Kordic was
20 concerned to have all refugees settled in a Muslim
21 municipality, would that have accorded with your
22 understanding of things at the time? There should be
23 division of people between one municipality and
24 another?
25 It's at page 4 on the English version. Was
Page 17395
1 it justified that things had, by that time, reached
2 such a past that Muslims should be kept separate or
3 should be obliged to go to Muslim communities only?
4 A. I never dealt with this document. I would
5 have to look into it. I would have to read through the
6 entire document, and I have my own opinion of it.
7 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we're going to be
8 assisted by further questioning. Yes, let's move on.
9 MR. NICE:
10 Q. My point remains, brigadier, that by these
11 times that I'm getting you to deal with at this stage,
12 you don't point to any evidence of the Muslims being so
13 aggressive or so territorial that they could
14 justifiably be treated as an enemy, do you?
15 A. I think that we did not act in such a way
16 until the attacks on our areas and villages were
17 launched, because when I was in the joint commission in
18 Busovaca and when we analysed together with the
19 International Community representatives, I remember we
20 came up with the number of 528, and 128 Muslim
21 households. So the question was: Who expelled whom in
22 Central Bosnia? One hundred and fifty thousand Croats
23 driven from their homes and about 50.000 Muslims, which
24 is a ratio of 3 to 1 against the Croats. They were
25 driven out. They were attacked.
Page 17396
1 Q. Later the tide may have turned because the
2 Muslims found strength they didn't have initially, but
3 I'm concerned with these early days. And help me with
4 this: Was it justified, in November of 1992, for
5 Muslims to be obliged to plead loyalty -- to pledge
6 loyalty to the HVO government or to lose their jobs?
7 Was this justified, brigadier?
8 A. I think that this didn't happen. I did not
9 hear of such cases. And as far as losing jobs, Croats
10 also lost jobs. My wife, who worked in the same
11 factory with the Muslims, lost her job in June of 1992
12 and never got it back. So jobs were being lost and
13 people went home, and both Croats and Muslims stayed in
14 other jobs until the conflict broke out in Vitez.
15 Q. What about the ten buildings, coffee shops,
16 restaurants, and so on belonging to Muslims, that were
17 blown up by HV soldiers in November 1992? No
18 conceivable justification for that, was there, in
19 Vitez?
20 JUDGE MAY: Yes, it was January. Yes.
21 Nothing turns on that.
22 MR. NICE:
23 Q. No justification, was there?
24 A. Yes, I remember that those cafes were blown
25 up, but for every Muslim business that was blown up,
Page 17397
1 even more Croat ones were blown up, and the motive
2 behind it was looting.
3 Q. So it was in this environment that you joined
4 up in November of 1992; is that correct?
5 A. I came --
6 MR. SAYERS: The form of the question was
7 "joined up." I think that that's unclear. Brigadier
8 Nakic has testified that he joined the HVO in April of
9 1992 and that he became the Chief of Staff in November
10 of 1992.
11 MR. NICE: Quite right. Joined up in the
12 sense of joining Blaskic in November 1992.
13 Q. The question remains: This is the
14 environment, and you were prepared to serve Blaskic
15 without any hesitation?
16 A. I accepted the order to work in the
17 headquarters of the Operative Zone on the 1st of
18 December, 1992, when there was still heavy fighting
19 against the Serbs and there was no fighting against the
20 Bosnian Muslims.
21 Q. That was a couple of days after a meeting of
22 the Mixed Military Working Group in Sarajevo, wasn't
23 it? Do you remember that?
24 A. I don't know about that working group.
25 Q. Did you have no knowledge of the fact that it
Page 17398
1 was being represented or that your representative on it
2 was Kordic?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Neither on that meeting, nor, for example, at
5 the meeting in December, at the end of the December?
6 No knowledge of that either?
7 A. In December, yes, I heard that he went to a
8 meeting.
9 Q. And can you understand why he was called
10 "colonel"?
11 A. Well, in the HVO, nobody had the rank of
12 colonel. They called Mr. Filipovic "colonel" and
13 Mr. Blaskic "colonel" and other officers too, referring
14 to them by ranks as people knew them. I personally
15 never saw an order that anybody, until January 1996,
16 that he was promoted to an HVO rank. Only in January
17 1996 did we -- were we given ranks officially. But
18 people would refer to individuals -- some individuals
19 as "colonel," and I heard that they called Mr. Kordic
20 "colonel" as well. But I myself never referred to him
21 as "colonel." When we met I would address him as
22 "Mr. Dario."
23 Q. When he was promoted in January 1996, he was
24 promoted to what rank?
25 A. Well, I think he was brigadier, unless I'm
Page 17399
1 mistaken, like me.
2 Q. So we come to January and to your work on the
3 commission. Would you accept this characterisation of
4 your performance on the commission: that you had to
5 refer back to Blaskic for decisions?
6 A. I submitted reports to Mr. Blaskic, what was
7 done and what decisions had to be taken, because he led
8 my appointment, and his order was signed together with
9 Mr. Hadzihasanovic if anything had to be done. So
10 assignments both to me and Merdan. And this feedback
11 information I would submit in writing to Blaskic, or I
12 would personally go to the headquarters and convey to
13 him what was being done within the frameworks of the
14 joint commission.
15 Q. Well, reporting back is one thing, but
16 referring to him for decisions is another, perhaps.
17 Did you, as I think amongst others Mr. Buffini has told
18 us, referred back to him for decisions to be made?
19 A. I don't understand. Which decisions?
20 Q. Decisions that were being made in the
21 commission?
22 A. No. The decisions made in the commission
23 would be passed further down to be implemented, because
24 it was Blaskic's and Hadzihasanovic's task. And it was
25 one task, and that is to establish peace in Busovaca,
Page 17400
1 to separate the armies in Busovaca, to reduce the
2 number of soldiers, to fill in the trenches, and that
3 is the point we got to. And I would give reports of
4 this kind to Blaskic, because it was a joint order by
5 him and Mr. Hadzihasanovic.
6 Q. It's been suggested that your inability to --
7 or your lack of authority to make decisions caused
8 problems and tensions within the commission. Would you
9 accept that?
10 A. No. Everything that was ordered I
11 implemented. What was not ordered I could not
12 implement because I was subordinate.
13 Q. Very well. There may not be much between you
14 in the result. We move on in January.
15 MR. NICE: Can he see Exhibit 248.1, please?
16 Q. By January, you were certainly in contact
17 with Blaskic and, no doubt, beginning to get to know
18 how things were taking shape on the ground; would that
19 be correct, Brigadier?
20 A. Would you repeat your question, please?
21 Q. Yes. By January of 1993, you were in the
22 position to start to know how things were actually
23 operating on the ground of Blaskic's headquarters and
24 the area generally; correct?
25 A. My task was the organisation of the staff and
Page 17401
1 of the units, but unfortunately I never succeeded
2 because of the work we did in the Joint Commission and
3 continued work in the Joint Command. And we finished
4 the war without having actually formed the HVO.
5 Q. But, as you've told us, Blaskic was military
6 and Kordic had nothing to do with military matters?
7 A. No, he didn't.
8 Q. Here we have a document from the Ante
9 Starcevic Brigade in Gornji Vakuf, dated the 10th of
10 January, going to the Central Bosnia Operative Zone,
11 Blaskic, reading, as we can see: "On the basis of
12 demonstrated need," and so on, "please provide," or,
13 "kindly provide 150 shells, 120-millimetre mortars, of
14 the kind available at the Vitez factory, because we've
15 run out." But he also addresses that to Mr. Kordic.
16 Can you help us, please, with why? You were there at
17 the time.
18 A. I have never seen this document, and I think
19 there's an error, why it is being sent to Mr. Kordic,
20 and the real address is the Operative Zone and its
21 command.
22 Q. Or does the fact that it's addressed to
23 Mr. Kordic reflect what was well understood on the
24 ground; namely, that he was the man with power?
25 A. At that time, this was thought by Mr. Luka
Page 17402
1 Sikira. I did not think that.
2 MR. NICE: Your Honour, rather than -- if the
3 Court is prepared to sit a little beyond 4.00, and I
4 know that 4.00 is its time, I would like to do an
5 exercise that's slightly out of sequence, but it's
6 better done now.
7 JUDGE MAY: Ten past 4.00.
8 MR. NICE: Thank you very much.
9 Well, then if we could just jump a few days
10 in January, with the assistance of the technical booth,
11 and if the Chamber would like to take, please, its copy
12 of the audiotape, which is Exhibit -- the transcript is
13 2801.3, and if the witness can be provided, I think
14 probably by Ms. Bauer, with the Croatian transcript of
15 the last conversation, and if the English version of
16 that which appears at page 32 can be laid on the ELMO,
17 I'll just deal with this. Don't read it yet,
18 Brigadier, because I want to ask you one or two
19 questions first.
20 Q. By the 25th of February of 1993, is it right
21 that you had a means of communication, Busovaca to
22 Kiseljak, from a telephone line in the PTT building?
23 A. There was a line, until it was cut off by the
24 army forces. But when it was severed, I don't know.
25 Q. You used that line yourself?
Page 17403
1 A. I did not.
2 Q. Well, then, I would like you to listen,
3 please, to this tape, and we'll take it so far and then
4 I'll stop it. I'd like you to listen to this tape,
5 following, if you can, in the Croatian version. I'll
6 just check.
7 If Your Honour will give me a minute, I'll
8 find one for Ms. Somers to follow. If the audio booth
9 could play the tape, please. And we know that the
10 quality may not be very good.
11 [Audiotape played]
12 MR. NICE: Perhaps we can stop it now.
13 Q. Brigadier, we aren't having any
14 interpretation of that, and it may not be possible to
15 have it. But you just tell us, do you recognise the
16 voices on that tape?
17 A. No, I don't recognise any of the voices.
18 Q. Were you able to follow it at all in the
19 transcript that you saw?
20 A. I did follow.
21 Q. There's a reference there to a man called
22 Franjo. Who could that be, if not you?
23 A. It's not my voice, and this is not my
24 conversation.
25 Q. Did you recognise the other voice?
Page 17404
1 A. No.
2 Q. Can you help us at all with who might have
3 been using that phone by the name of Franjo?
4 A. There was no Franjo in the command, except
5 the assistant for logistics whose name was Franjo. But
6 I don't know about anybody else with that name. But
7 the name of that logistics man wasn't the voice that
8 was played, not the tone. It wasn't my voice or the
9 voice of that man, nor do I recognise any of these
10 voices.
11 Q. The sound quality is clearly not very good.
12 Do you think the other voice was or might have been
13 Blaskic or not?
14 A. None of these voices were the voice of
15 Blaskic.
16 Q. I may come back tomorrow, but I wanted your
17 answers on that this evening. Thank you very much.
18 Let's go back, then, in the remaining few
19 minutes, to what you're saying about January.
20 You've told us about the checkpoint and the
21 arrest of someone at the checkpoint. But before we
22 come to that, do you know anything about the murder of
23 Mirsad Delija?
24 A. I never heard of that name. This is the
25 first time that I'm hearing this name.
Page 17405
1 Q. Let's go to the checkpoint, as I want to
2 explore what it is you're saying. How did you come to
3 hear of an arrest at the checkpoint?
4 A. By a written report from the Busovaca
5 headquarters sent to the Operative Zone.
6 Q. Yes. Who sent the report?
7 A. The municipal headquarters of Busovaca.
8 Q. Who was the writer, who was the author?
9 A. Dusko Grubesic.
10 Q. Did it simply report on an incident or did it
11 seek some assistance or some remedy? What was the
12 position?
13 A. He informed this and said that in Zenica,
14 things ought to be -- strings ought to be pulled for
15 this individual to be released.
16 Q. Which individual?
17 A. Ignac Kostroman.
18 Q. When was the report sent?
19 A. I said that it was on the 20th or the 21st.
20 I don't remember exactly.
21 Q. And what time of the day was it, sir?
22 A. In the afternoon hours.
23 Q. And at that time, where, did it inform you,
24 was Mr. Kostroman being kept?
25 A. Well, believe me, I don't know.
Page 17406
1 Q. But the purpose of its being sent was to
2 achieve release. Who actually received the request in
3 the office? Was it you or someone else?
4 A. The duty officer in the Operative Zone.
5 Q. Who was that?
6 A. I can't remember. I don't know.
7 Q. Who acted on the message once it had been
8 received; you, Blaskic, someone else?
9 A. I did not act. I just received it as a piece
10 of information. It was conveyed to the commander, but
11 I don't know what was done, although I know that the
12 gentleman was released.
13 Q. How long after was it that he was released,
14 please?
15 A. Well, believe me when I say I don't know. I
16 don't remember it. It was a long time ago, and I had
17 my own affairs to attend to.
18 Q. You weren't asked about this incident, were
19 you, in the course of preparation for either of the
20 other two trials where you've been considered as a
21 Defence witness?
22 A. No.
23 Q. So correct me if I'm wrong, but the first
24 time you had occasion to think back to this incident
25 was a few weeks ago when you were first approached or
Page 17407
1 first considered this history for the purposes of this
2 trial. Would that be right?
3 A. On the 30th of March, I made my first
4 statement. I just mentioned on the occasion that we
5 received a report saying that they had been arrested.
6 I didn't know anything any more, and I gave no more
7 statements except that they were arrested with their
8 two escorts. I could tell the Defence nothing, I can
9 tell you nothing as to what actually happened after
10 that.
11 Q. You say "they were arrested with their two
12 escorts." Who are you referring to?
13 A. I don't know if I said "they." I said,
14 "Ignjac Kostroman with his two escorts."
15 Q. The report said nothing else about any other
16 named people, did it?
17 A. No. No. Except for the fact that Kordic and
18 Blaskic were not on the spot. That was also mentioned
19 in the report, that they were not present, that Blaskic
20 was not present in Vitez in the Operative Zone at that
21 particular moment.
22 Q. My mistake for not understanding you. This
23 notification was sent to Blaskic's headquarters for
24 assistance; correct?
25 A. It was by way of information. It was not my
Page 17408
1 task to deal in that matter, and I conveyed it to the
2 Security Service, whose task it was to see to matters
3 of that kind, so that the duty officer passed it on.
4 How the matter was resolved, I don't know.
5 Q. It was sent to Blaskic's headquarters for
6 assistance, I thought. I'll read back over the
7 transcript. "It was sent to his headquarters for
8 assistance."
9 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, the Prosecution, is
10 just arguing with the witness. Line 21, page 140,
11 says: "It was by way of information." I think he's
12 answered the question.
13 MR. NICE: Incorrect, I think, but I'll just
14 check it.
15 JUDGE MAY: Well, the time is now ten past
16 four.
17 MR. NICE: I'll deal with it tomorrow then.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The matter can be dealt
19 with then.
20 Brigadier Nakic, would you be back, please,
21 tomorrow morning at half past nine.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
23 at 4.12 p.m., to be reconvened on
24 Friday, the 14th day of April, 2000
25 at 9.30 a.m.