Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 19712

1 Tuesday, 30 May 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 --- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m.

5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Nice.

6 MR. NICE: A few administrative matters

7 before evidence is called today. First a very small

8 point, but one which I think will probably find a

9 sympathetic ear in all corners of the courtroom. We're

10 receiving a very great amount of material now to deal

11 with, and this courtroom is, of course, very difficult

12 for us to work in. At the most, I can really have one

13 of my colleagues with me. The number of files I'm able

14 to handle is limited here, and I have asked the Deputy

15 Registrar to have in mind the possible advantages for

16 us, and I suspect for everyone else, having one of the

17 larger courts whenever that's a possibility. He was

18 not unsympathetic to my application.

19 The second point concerns something that's

20 been outstanding for some time now and I've been

21 meaning to mention, and it's judicial notice in other

22 cases. I think the matter has now been completely

23 briefed on other side, but we would respectfully invite

24 you to postpone dealing with that until a later stage,

25 for several reasons.

Page 19713

1 First, you will probably recall that when I

2 made the application to put in these matters just

3 before the close of our case, I said it was necessary

4 to do so because of the uncertain future of other

5 cases, their appeals and determinations in them, and so

6 on, and also because of uncertainty at that stage about

7 the Blaskic decision, which was only in French and

8 therefore not fully available to some of us, and so

9 on.

10 Well, now we would prefer, and would

11 respectfully suggest it would be appropriate, to defer

12 arguing out judicial findings in other cases until the

13 closing state of this trial, by which stage the

14 progress of other appeals will be known, and it will be

15 known by us to what extent we wish to rely on judicial

16 findings in other cases. It may be that we would

17 prefer not to rely on judicial findings in other cases,

18 either at all or substantially. But far better left

19 till the end and then argued out as part of the closing

20 arguments in our case, in our respectful submission.

21 JUDGE MAY: Well, that's a matter we'll take

22 into consideration.

23 MR. NICE: I have now served, and I hope the

24 Chamber's has had a chance to read, the report on the

25 audiotape handling of evidence, and perhaps we can deal

Page 19714

1 with any outstanding issues in relation to that at an

2 early and convenient moment.

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

4 MR. NICE: When we do -- there's one other

5 thing I want to say in relation to documents generally,

6 but it's probably better that I say it at that stage so

7 that it's all of a piece, but I'd rather say what I

8 have to say about documents before the Chamber makes

9 any order in relation to original materials.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

11 MR. NICE: Affidavits.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, I understand the

13 position is that last week's affidavits were held over.

14 MR. NICE: That's right.

15 JUDGE MAY: We'll find a convenient moment in

16 the next two days to deal with them. I should say that

17 I shall not be here on Thursday and Friday because of

18 Tribunal business in London, and unless anybody has any

19 objection, Judge Bennouna and Judge Robinson will be

20 conducting the hearings.

21 MR. NICE: Of course we have no objections.

22 Thursday and Friday is currently timetabled for what is

23 an important witness on both sides, but then he is a

24 witness who, once his evidence is in two days, assuming

25 that the timetable works, will be evidence of a piece,

Page 19715

1 and perhaps the more easy for Your Honour to catch up

2 with where you've got several witnesses. I don't know.

3 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes.

4 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

5 Your Honour. Our next witness is ready. I believe

6 that the Chamber has ruled in regard of his protective

7 measures, and I think that we are agreed that he will

8 testify in closed session, and I believe he can be

9 called now. Thank you.

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

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Page 19791

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23 [Open session]

24 JUDGE MAY: Is there anything you want to ask

25 to add to the affidavit, Mr. Sayers?

Page 19792

1 MR. SAYERS: Frankly, Your Honour, I had

2 anticipated asking Mr. Santic what his name was

3 confirming that everything in the affidavit was true

4 and then sitting down.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. You'll obviously get

6 through this witness. You've got another one this

7 afternoon?

8 MR. SAYERS: We have two others lined up,

9 Your Honour, and then there are two others for the rest

10 of the week. Then we had intended to close up the

11 Busovaca evidence this week and then try to squeeze in

12 the two affidavit witnesses from whom the Court

13 indicated it wished to hear.

14 JUDGE MAY: We shall, in fact, take slightly

15 longer than usual adjournment at lunch and then we'll

16 sit again at 2.40.

17 [The witness entered court]

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, let the witness take the

19 declaration.

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

21 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

22 and nothing but the truth.

23 [Witness answered through interpreter]

24 WITNESS: MARIO SANTIC

25 Examined by Mr. Sayers:

Page 19793

1 Q. Thank you, Mr. President, and good afternoon,

2 sir. Would you simply tell the Court your name?

3 A. Mario Santic.

4 Q. Mr. Santic, you signed an affidavit that was

5 submitted to the Court for use in this case on May 8th,

6 2000; is that correct?

7 A. It is.

8 Q. Did you read the affidavit carefully before

9 you signed it?

10 A. I did.

11 Q. Is everything in that affidavit correct to

12 the best of your knowledge?

13 A. It is. Yes.

14 Q. [Microphone not activated] -- contained in

15 that affidavit today?

16 A. I do.

17 MR. SAYERS: Thank you, Your Honours. No

18 further questions.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, any questions.

20 MR. KOVACIC: No, sir, I will not have any

21 questions. Thank you.

22 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

23 Q. May it please the Court.

24 Witness, you have a nickname by the name of

25 -- and I'm not going to try to pronounce it -- forgive

Page 19794

1 me, by Svecenik.

2 A. Correct.

3 Q. Is that correct?

4 A. It is.

5 Q. And can you tell us, sir, when did you first

6 meet with anyone representing Mr. Kordic either an

7 investigator or a lawyer or anyone else who understood

8 then or later learned was working for or on behalf of

9 Mr. Kordic, please?

10 A. A few months ago. I can't remember the date

11 exactly, but that's about it. When Mr. Mitko,

12 something like that came, and before that, I talked to

13 Mr. Mitko, and we drew up that statement in Vitez. We

14 handed it over to the court, had it certified, and

15 that's it.

16 Q. Did you understand that these gentlemen

17 you've just named, these were investigators working on

18 behalf of the Defence team or who did you understand

19 them to be?

20 A. Quite so. Investigators or people

21 representing.

22 Q. And did you review any documents, sir, in

23 either preparing to sign the affidavit that was put

24 before you or in preparing to testify today? Did you

25 review any sort of materials?

Page 19795

1 A. Excuse me, could you repeat it slower,

2 please?

3 Q. Certainly. In either preparing your

4 affidavit, sir, or preparing to testify in court today,

5 did you review any documents or materials?

6 A. No, only talking.

7 Q. All right. So no one showed you any

8 documents or put any documents in front of you?

9 A. We only talked about it.

10 Q. Very well.

11 A. And the product of that was my affidavit, my

12 statement.

13 Q. Did you travel anywhere, sir, in connection

14 with preparing your affidavit or in preparing to come

15 here other than Vitez or, of course, The Hague?

16 A. Only this statement that I signed in Vitez

17 and have certified in the court in Vitez.

18 Q. And when is the last time, sir, that you saw

19 or spoke with the man named Josip Buha, B-u-h-a?

20 A. Because Buha worked for a demining company,

21 it could have been two or three months ago, more or

22 less.

23 Q. Have you talked to Mr. Buha about your

24 affidavit or about your testimony today?

25 A. No, not then. I'm referring to about two or

Page 19796

1 three months ago. No, nothing, it was just in passing,

2 "Hi, hi," and that was that. That was two or three

3 months ago.

4 Q. And you've not talked to him other than this

5 one occasion you just mentioned to the Court; is that

6 correct?

7 A. It is, it is.

8 Q. Did anyone tell you what Mr. Buha had

9 testified to in court?

10 A. No, no.

11 Q. All right. Moving on sir, you state in your

12 affidavit that you were a member of the Vitezovi

13 Special Unit from approximately the 29th of September,

14 1992 to the 18th of January 1994; is that correct,

15 sir?

16 A. It is.

17 Q. And before that, commencing in approximately

18 December of 1991, you were a member of something called

19 HOS in Vitez, were you not?

20 A. Yes.

21 MR. SCOTT: If I can have the usher's

22 assistance, please. There should be copies there for

23 both the Court and counsel and the witness, I hope.

24 For the record, Your Honour, I've just

25 tendered to the usher as Exhibit Z1476.3.

Page 19797

1 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, there appears to be

2 no translation for this.

3 MR. SCOTT: I was about to address that.

4 MR. SAYERS: And, in fact, when we tried to

5 introduce an exhibit last week to which there was no

6 translation, a very vigorous objection was made and we

7 agreed to it.

8 JUDGE MAY: What's the position here, Mr.

9 Scott?

10 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I was about to

11 address that before Mr. Sayers rose.

12 I will tell the Court that there is not only

13 this exhibit but about five or six other exhibits, but

14 because they only came into the OTP's possession

15 literally in the past -- well, I think Friday, I think

16 last Friday evening, we have no way of -- some of

17 these -- with the exception of this one, excuse me, but

18 we've had no way of translating these documents up to

19 the present time.

20 JUDGE MAY: Well, you know what the usual

21 rule is that only translated documents can be admitted.

22 MR. SCOTT: I can only give the explanation

23 to the Court that I have. I understand the Court's

24 concern about that.

25 If I can just simply ask --

Page 19798

1 [Trial Chamber confers]

2 MR. SCOTT: I think in this particular

3 instance, Your Honour -- sorry.

4 JUDGE MAY: Well, on this occasion, you can

5 put the matter to the witness. The document can be put

6 on the ELMO and we'll hear a translation of the

7 relevant part.

8 You mention other documents. I trust that

9 none of them are long if there are.

10 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, and there's only

11 very short passages in each one that literally a couple

12 of lines that I think will be the most pertinent to the

13 Court and we can handle them the same way.

14 JUDGE MAY: We'll see how this goes.

15 MR. SAYERS: If I may be heard Your Honour

16 just very one very brief point. The point was made by

17 Mr. Nice last week that he couldn't be in a position to

18 cross-examine because he wasn't able to read the

19 document, and I agreed with that and we agreed to

20 not -- not to pose questions upon it we find ourselves

21 in the same position.

22 JUDGE MAY: I can't help but noticing you

23 could possibly ask Mr. Naumovski to help you with it.

24 But we'll see how it goes. Clearly as a matter of

25 principle, we do not allow documents which are not

Page 19799

1 translated.

2 These appear to be some membership documents;

3 is that right?

4 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour, they are just

5 further documents and, for the record, purposes the

6 particular dates that indicate the witness' membership

7 in these two units which is admitted in general, but

8 it's simply documents in detail in both those items.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Scott and Mr. Sayers, I

11 think the most practical solution is to have the

12 document put on the ELMO. If you find that your

13 re-examination is in any way prejudiced by the lack of

14 translation, you can raise that with us. But in the

15 meantime, I think we'll put it on the ELMO.

16 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Q. Witness, if you can look -- I think it should

18 be on your screen. I hope, or with the usher's

19 assistance, these are -- this first page of Exhibit

20 Z1476.3 is a record or at least documentation of your

21 membership, in this particular instance, mentioning

22 HOS.

23 In the second line of the form, essentially a

24 form that's been filled in over the typed name of Darko

25 Kraljevic, the commanding officer of the Vitezovi, and

Page 19800

1 over the signature of Dragan Vinac. Are those the --

2 if you can look at that sir and confirm are those the

3 dates of your membership in either HOS and/or the

4 Vitezovi?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. All right. Now, I think, likewise, if you

7 can look at the third page, if the usher can direct you

8 to the third page, I think we can cover this very

9 quickly. Again, a reference to your membership in the

10 Vitezovi from approximately the 10th of September, 1992

11 until the 18th of January, 1994. Is that correct, sir?

12 A. It is.

13 Q. And finally, a document that appears to then

14 capture both parts of this information on one document,

15 indicating your membership in both HOS, as early as

16 December 1991, and then the Vitezovi. Is that correct,

17 sir?

18 A. It is.

19 Q. How old were you, Witness, when you joined

20 the HOS, by the way?

21 A. Eighteen.

22 Q. When you joined -- or were transferred from

23 HOS to the Vitezovi Special Unit, you were issued

24 camouflage uniforms; is that correct?

25 A. Just a moment. Could you repeat it slowly,

Page 19801

1 please?

2 Q. Sure. When you moved from HOS to the

3 Vitezovi Special Purpose Unit, you were issued a

4 camouflage uniform; is that correct?

5 A. It is.

6 Q. But when you were in the HOS, you also had

7 worn and had a black uniform; isn't that correct, sir?

8 A. Both black and camouflage.

9 Q. And in fact, someone you knew as Edim Catic

10 once wore your black uniform, didn't he?

11 A. I didn't get the name of the gentleman that

12 you mentioned.

13 Q. I'll spell it, sir, in case I pronounced it

14 wrong. E-d-i-m C-a-t-i-c.

15 A. I don't know anyone by that name.

16 Q. Can you tell the Court, sir, what determined

17 on any given day whether you wore the camouflage

18 uniform or the black uniform?

19 A. The black was mostly for ceremonies and

20 parades, and the camouflage was used for training and

21 other things.

22 Q. And which camouflage uniform were you wearing

23 in Ahmici on the 16th of April, 1993?

24 JUDGE MAY: The witness should be asked the

25 question fairly. The first question is whether he was

Page 19802

1 in Ahmici on that day.

2 MR. SCOTT: Very well, Your Honour.

3 Q. Witness you heard the Court's question. Were

4 you in Ahmici on the 16th of April, 1993?

5 A. No.

6 Q. All right. We'll come back to that.

7 Darko Kraljevic was the commanding officer of

8 the Vitezovi and had his headquarters at the Dubravica

9 school; is that correct, sir?

10 A. It is.

11 Q. And I realise the numbers may have varied

12 over time, but can you help us, sir, by telling the

13 Court, on average, or in general, how many soldiers or

14 members made up the Vitezovi Special Purpose Unit?

15 A. About 120.

16 Q. And apart from Mr. Kraljevic, who was the

17 overall commanding officer, who were the other senior

18 officers of that unit in 1993?

19 A. Plavcic and Sapina and Vinac.

20 Q. And who was your immediate commanding

21 officer, sir, your superior, presumably between you and

22 Mr. Kraljevic?

23 A. Zoran Bilic.

24 Q. Now, it's true, sir, is it not, that one of

25 the accused here, Mr. Mario Cerkez, and Darko Kraljevic

Page 19803

1 were very good friends, weren't they?

2 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour --

3 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

4 MR. KOVACIC: I think this is entirely out of

5 a direct examination and affidavit statement. He was

6 not asked about that.

7 JUDGE MAY: That's true.

8 MR. SCOTT: It is true, Your Honour,

9 technically, but if the witness comes, there's been

10 many questions in the course of trial about the

11 Vitezovi, its make-up, its chain of command, and we

12 have a member of the Vitezovi here. We think that it's

13 not fair to shield the Court from that information that

14 this witness is in a position to give the Court.

15 JUDGE MAY: I think we've already had

16 evidence about this. I seem to remember evidence on

17 this particular point.

18 MR. KOVACIC: Could I have just one sentence?

19 JUDGE MAY: The relationship between

20 Mr. Kraljevic and Mr. Cerkez was discussed, at least by

21 one witness, at some length.

22 MR. SCOTT: I'm obviously in the Court's

23 hands. If the Court thinks that that's been firmly

24 established to its satisfaction, I can only take the

25 Court's guidance.

Page 19804

1 JUDGE MAY: I don't think we need to pursue

2 it any further. It's now 1.00, in any event. We'll

3 adjourn till 2.40.

4 Mr. Santic, you are giving evidence. During

5 the adjournment, don't speak to anybody about your

6 evidence and don't let anybody speak to you about it.

7 That does include the members of the Defence team.

8 Don't speak to anybody about it until it's over. Would

9 you be back, please, at 2.40 p.m. We'll adjourn.

10 --- Luncheon recess taken at 1.01 p.m.

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Page 19805

1

2 --- On resuming at 2.43 p.m.

3 MR. SCOTT: Just one moment, Your Honour, I'm

4 sorry.

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, we considered the last

6 point that was made. We think it right that you should

7 be restricted, according to the rule, to matters which

8 arise from the affidavit and matters relating to

9 credibility. If there are any other matters which are

10 relevant, of course it's open to you to address us on

11 it, but we wouldn't encourage you to adopt a roving

12 commission through the HOS Vitezovi.

13 MR. SCOTT: No, Your Honour, I appreciate the

14 Court's guidance on that.

15 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone to the counsel,

16 please.

17 MR. SCOTT: I appreciate the Court's

18 guidance, Mr. President.

19 Let me be very transparent with both you and

20 the Defence on what could be the next series of

21 questions or, for the Court's direction, may not be.

22 There are -- what I propose to do in my

23 outline next with this witness asked about the

24 relationship between Mr. Cerkez and Mr. Kraljevic is

25 put to the witness the question that, or the

Page 19806

1 proposition that, the Vitezovi Special Purposes Unit

2 acted in very close concert, on many occasions, with

3 the Vitez Brigade.

4 I have a number, I have five documents that

5 have only recently come into the Prosecutor's

6 possession which show exactly that, show -- orders

7 signed by Mario Cerkez showing close coordination and,

8 in fact, in some instances, Mr. Cerkez arranging the

9 disposition, the battle disposition of Vitezovi forces

10 and ask this witness, since he was a member of the

11 Vitezovi, what does he know about that. Was he

12 involved in any action together in joint actions with

13 the Vitez Brigade et cetera.

14 JUDGE MAY: Speaking for myself, I would have

15 it thought it may be more appropriate to deal with that

16 by way of rebuttal evidence if it's matters that may

17 recently have come to light rather than do it through

18 Defence witnesses.

19 MR. SCOTT: I'll take the Court's guidance.

20 Your Honour, perhaps the Court will allow one

21 question on this maybe we can simply ask one question

22 and move on if the Court will allow me.

23 Q. Mr. Santic, you are a member of the Special

24 Purpose Unit, the Vitezovi. Can you tell the Court, to

25 your knowledge, did the Vitezovi Special Purpose Unit

Page 19807

1 often act in close coordination with the Vitez Brigade?

2 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, if I may object on

3 the same basis. This was not the subject of the

4 affidavit. It is entirely outside the scope.

5 JUDGE MAY: Well, it may be a question which

6 we will allow, one question on the topic. Yes.

7 MR. SCOTT:

8 Q. Will you answer the question, Mr. Santic?

9 A. If you could just repeat it because there was

10 a lengthy exchange in between.

11 Q. Certainly. Mr. Santic, isn't it true that on

12 many occasions, throughout 1993, the Vitezovi Special

13 Purposes Unit acted in close coordination with the

14 Vitez Brigade?

15 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry for

16 interrupt, but could I at least ask the Prosecution to

17 lay a base for the question.

18 JUDGE MAY: He can ask the witness who was a

19 member of the Vitezovi whether it was -- acted in

20 cooperation with the Vitez Brigade. There doesn't need

21 to be a base for the examination and I have already

22 ruled.

23 Yes, Mr. Santic, what is the answer, please?

24 A. We received orders strictly from our

25 commanders and we did all -- everything that concerned

Page 19808

1 the defence on our own.

2 MR. SCOTT:

3 Q. Well, Mr. Santic, that doesn't answer my

4 question.

5 JUDGE ROBINSON: Can you just --

6 MR. SCOTT: Yes, I'm sorry.

7 [Trial Chamber confers]

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, I think we've taken

9 the matter as far as it can be.

10 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Your Honour.

11 Q. Mr. Santic, you say in your affidavit that

12 you are sure that Mr. Kordic was not at the Dubravica

13 barracks on the 15th of April 1993. And you say --

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Yes. And you say in paragraph seven, you

16 said you were confident that you would have known if

17 someone important would have come to the barracks and

18 at some point you said, "It would be a special event

19 for us if eminent persons had ever come to our

20 barracks." Correct?

21 A. That is correct. When some other military or

22 some other leader would come, everybody would know

23 because people on -- who were on guard would spread the

24 word and I, myself, was part of the guard.

25 And I was on duty that day, and I would have

Page 19809

1 and should have known if somebody was coming to the

2 barracks.

3 Q. Well, sir, you're saying, you're suggesting

4 then that if someone as eminent as Mr. Kordic would

5 have come to the barracks, you would have remembered

6 that; is that true?

7 A. Yes. Regardless of who came, I would have

8 remembered, especially if I was on the guard duty.

9 Q. And were you on guard duty on the 16th of

10 April -- or the 15th of April, 1993?

11 A. Yes. We had two-hour shifts, and in between

12 we relaxed and engaged in other activities.

13 Q. And do you recall which shift you had that

14 day?

15 A. I don't recall exactly, but there was one in

16 the evening hours, but I don't know exactly what time

17 it was.

18 Q. And who did you understand Mr. Kordic to be

19 in April 1993, sir?

20 A. A political figure, because watching TV and

21 listening to the radio, I heard some of his political

22 speeches and I considered him a political figure.

23 That's it.

24 Q. Did you consider him one of the principal

25 leaders of the Bosnian Croat people in Central Bosnia?

Page 19810

1 A. I wasn't involved in that very much. I was a

2 soldier and I wasn't all that interested in politics.

3 Q. Well, sir, you say in your affidavit, you

4 said you would have been particularly aware if someone

5 like Mr. Kordic had come, because it would have been a

6 special event if eminent persons had visited your

7 barracks. You would have considered Mr. Kordic an

8 eminent person, wouldn't you?

9 A. Any political figure, any person -- that's

10 what I was talking about -- people would know about

11 him. Especially people like Mr. Kordic, who was a

12 political official, we would have known that he was

13 here, because there's escorts, there's all that.

14 Q. Did you know, sir, how Mr. Anto Breljas came

15 to join the Vitezovi unit?

16 A. As regards Anto Breljas, I heard about him on

17 that morning of the 16th, sometime in the afternoon,

18 when one of the logistics persons brought ammunition

19 and some equipment, and we heard that one of our own

20 was captured. And after that, when -- after I was

21 wounded, I had an opportunity to see Anto Breljas.

22 Q. Well, let me repeat my question. Perhaps you

23 didn't understand. Do you know how it was that

24 Mr. Breljas came to join the Vitezovi unit?

25 A. Mr. Breljas was captured, arrested, by the

Page 19811

1 PPN Vitezovi at the gas station and brought to the

2 barracks, according to what people knew at the time.

3 And then he was under some kind of house arrest and

4 then joined a logistics. I don't know whether Darko

5 Kraljevic liked him or something, but he assigned him

6 to the logistics. And this is where I found him in

7 early May, with the logistics department.

8 Q. All right, sir. Let's take that in some

9 smaller pieces. But first off, let me be clear. The

10 arrest, did this have something to do with a gasoline

11 station in the Vitez area? Is that where you say he

12 was arrested?

13 A. The soldiers who captured him, according to

14 what they told later when we talked about this, he was

15 moving in the middle of the road with a briefcase, and

16 the soldiers there considered him as a potential enemy

17 and they fired at him and then captured him.

18 Q. Were you involved in this action at the

19 gasoline station where Mr. Breljas, according to you,

20 was arrested?

21 A. No. I was at Mlakici. One group was at the

22 church, the other one at Mlakici, but that's all in one

23 and the same year.

24 Q. Sir, did you ever hear, were you ever

25 informed, that it was the accused, Dario Kordic, that

Page 19812

1 had sent Mr. Breljas to Darko Kraljevic with

2 instructions that he be allowed to join the Vitezovi?

3 A. I don't know about that. I have no

4 information in that regard. Because Mr. Darko

5 Kraljevic was exclusively assigning people to certain

6 assignments or tasks in Vitezovi. Nobody else could

7 appoint them, assign them, to be leaders of groups, of

8 squads, of any other part of the unit.

9 Q. So your testimony is, sir, that only

10 Mr. Kraljevic could have assigned -- could have

11 accepted, if you will, Mr. Breljas into the unit and

12 made assignments to him; is that correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. And you don't know one way or the other, and

15 you can't tell this Court one way or the other, whether

16 in fact Mr. Breljas first went to Darko Kraljevic on

17 the instructions of Dario Kordic?

18 A. Can you repeat, please?

19 Q. Sir, you don't know one way or the other, and

20 you cannot tell this Court one way or the other,

21 whether in fact Mr. Breljas first went to Darko

22 Kraljevic on the instructions of Dario Kordic?

23 A. He couldn't go to Darko Kraljevic first,

24 because first he was arrested and then monitored for a

25 while. Because at first, after the attack by the

Page 19813

1 Muslims, he couldn't have, because if he was arrested

2 on the 16th, all these subordinate commanders were at

3 the front line.

4 Q. Sir, you indicate you're confident that

5 Mr. Kordic wasn't at the Dubravica school on the 15th

6 of April. Where were you -- can you tell the Court

7 where you were on the 13th and 14th of April?

8 A. In the barracks.

9 Q. At all times through those days; is that

10 true?

11 A. I was at home on the 11th, and then I came

12 back to the barracks and I spent that whole time in the

13 barracks performing various duties: guard training and

14 so on.

15 Q. And during that time period, the 13th and

16 14th of April, were you at all times with Darko

17 Kraljevic?

18 A. I was at the barracks, because as a soldier,

19 there was a command and we were engaged in basic

20 things: training of -- physical training and so on.

21 Q. Mr. Santic, are you telling this Court that

22 you know all the people who Mr. Kraljevic met with on

23 the 13th, 14th, and 15th of April, 1993?

24 A. I at least would have seen them arriving,

25 because I was in the barracks. I would have known who

Page 19814

1 entered, or I would have been informed. Because of the

2 guard duties and everything else, I would have known;

3 at least I would have been told.

4 Q. And Mr. Kraljevic himself never left the

5 barracks during those three days, the 13th, 14th, and

6 15th of April?

7 A. From what I could see, because I would see

8 him on a couple of occasions, he had his superiors, his

9 commanders, so I could not see when he was not there.

10 I could see him when he was in the barracks, but not

11 when he left, because I had my duties. I couldn't

12 really know, be aware of the presence of my commander

13 at any given moment.

14 Q. All right. Now, sir, moving to the 16th of

15 April, can you tell the Court where you were that day?

16 A. On the 16th, in Mlakici. That morning,

17 around 5.00 -- it was 5.00 or half past 5.00, we were

18 awakened by the officer on duty and detonations around

19 the barracks. The alarm went on and we were told that

20 we had been attacked. Naturally, we were all shocked,

21 because that evening we had some leisure activities and

22 we were very tired because we were playing football and

23 basketball and netball. We were in the gym and we

24 finished at very late in the evening, sometime after

25 midnight.

Page 19815

1 Q. Are you talking about the 15th now?

2 A. Quite so. I'm talking about the 15th and the

3 16th in the morning.

4 Q. And you said you were -- you woke up

5 approximately around 5.00 a.m. and then how soon after

6 5.00 a.m. did you leave the barracks and go into the

7 field?

8 A. Roughly until we got the equipment and

9 whatever we could do it, because of the detonation and

10 the gunfire shocked us all and confused us. We didn't

11 really know what was going on so that in about half an

12 hour, perhaps an hour, something like that.

13 Q. So by approximately somewhere between 6.00 or

14 6.30 that morning, you were away in the field from the

15 barracks for the rest of the day; is that correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So sir, you don't know who Mr. Kraljevic met

18 during the 16th of April, do you?

19 A. I repeat, Kraljevic, Plavcic, Sapina and

20 Vinac were all on positions, and they were with us on

21 the front lines, the church, Mlakici towards Krcevine

22 we were all deployed. A couple of people stayed behind

23 to guard the equipment.

24 Q. Were you deployed with Mr. Kraljevic on the

25 16th of April?

Page 19816

1 A. With Mr. Sapina.

2 Q. And where was Mr. Kraljevic deployed,

3 according to you, on that day?

4 A. Plavcic and Kraljevic, by church from the

5 information that I had from my superior.

6 Q. Who was your superior?

7 A. Zoran Bilic.

8 Q. And where is the church that you're telling

9 us about now?

10 A. How do you mean, geographically or the

11 position. I don't understand.

12 Q. Geographically, what village, town, where is

13 it in relation to Vitez, for instance?

14 A. Some people call it Stari Vitez.

15 Q. Were you, Mr. Santic, at any time between the

16 13th and the 17th of April, 1993, with someone named

17 Miroslav Bralo sometimes also called Cico or Cicko?

18 A. I don't know the man.

19 Q. All right. Now, sir, you've said in your

20 affidavit that you were wounded on the 17th of April;

21 is that correct?

22 A. It is, in the morning.

23 Q. And you were recovering then for

24 approximately the next month according to paragraph

25 nine of your affidavit; is that correct sir?

Page 19817

1 A. It is.

2 Q. And so when do you recall approximately

3 returning, if you will, to active duty or returning to

4 your unit?

5 A. Early May came, I helped as much as I could

6 because I was like a wounded man. So some time I spent

7 time in the barracks helping other wounded, the

8 families of the wounded, and those killed. I helped by

9 distributing food or cigarettes and things of the sort

10 and that is how I spent the time until I recovered,

11 until my wounds healed.

12 Q. And also when you say in paragraph nine when

13 you returned, as you've just told us, some time you say

14 in early May, you saw that, "Anto Breljas was helping

15 Josip Buha our logistics officer." Is that correct?

16 A. He helped, yes. I didn't really know what he

17 was doing for him, but he was distributing food and

18 other things of the sort for the troops.

19 Q. And how long do you say that Mr. Breljas

20 continued in that role, that is, assisting as a

21 logistics officer?

22 A. I don't know exactly. I know later on and

23 I -- this is now very roughly because I cannot recall

24 those dates, but I think it was May or late May early

25 June that we learned that as an IPD, he was appointed

Page 19818

1 and that is because the commander, the superiors had

2 told us so.

3 Q. Who did you learn that from? You said that

4 you learned from your superiors. Do you recall who

5 told you that Mr. Breljas had been named the IPD

6 officer for the Vitezovi unit?

7 A. My superior, Zoran Bilic.

8 Q. So it's your testimony, sir, that sometime in

9 late May or early June, by that time, Mr. Breljas was

10 at that point, he was named the IPD officer; is that

11 correct?

12 A. About that, I gave you a month because I do

13 not remember exactly. At that time, we didn't -- he

14 was there for logistics out of the blue, and Mr. Bilic

15 told me that he had been appointed for IPD but we

16 attached no particular significance to that gentleman.

17 We had other problems, attacks and the like,

18 so that we attached more attention to other things.

19 MR. SCOTT: If the witness could please be

20 shown Exhibit Z1417.1, and that can be distributed as

21 well, please or put on the ELMO.

22 I think, according to the procedure we agreed

23 this morning, that with Judge Robinson's suggestion if

24 we could put that on the overhead on the ELMO and I can

25 point you to the particular passage, please.

Page 19819

1 Your Honour what I propose doing, if I could,

2 with the Court's permission, if I could ask the

3 translation help, if the translation could simply read

4 as the witness is reviewing the document the first two

5 paragraphs of this order or document, in any event,

6 Exhibit 1417.1 and then I can put a couple of questions

7 to the witness.

8 THE INTERPRETER: Somebody will have to read

9 it in our language for us.

10 MR. SCOTT: I hoped that it had been provided

11 to the booth earlier, but if the witness can then read

12 it, Your Honour, the first two paragraphs.

13 Q. Mr. Santic, can you help us, please, when

14 directing you to this document that's been put in front

15 of you, starting with the first line, if you could read

16 through what appears to be the first two paragraphs of

17 this document, and if you can do so, sir, slowly enough

18 to allow for translation, that would be most helpful.

19 A. "The certificate whereby it is confirmed by

20 the political administration of the Ministry of Defence

21 of the Croat Republic Herceg-Bosna that Lieutenant Anto

22 Breljas performed the duties of the political officer

23 in the unit PPN Vitezovi from the 20th of April, 1993

24 to 17th of January, 1993 when the unit ceased to

25 exist."

Page 19820

1 Q. The second date, sir, can I suggest it's 1994

2 and not 1993 or perhaps in translation.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Interpreter's mistake,

4 sorry.

5 Q. Could you read the next sentence as well,

6 please, starting with "Lieutenant Breljas".

7 A. "Lieutenant Anto Breljas performed the duties

8 of the political officer in the PPN Vitezovi

9 conscientiously."

10 Q. Now, sir, this is a document from someone

11 named Ignac Kostroman on -- from something called the

12 political administration of the Ministry of Defence,

13 were you familiar with that body?

14 A. Just a moment. You're asking me?

15 Q. Yes, I am.

16 A. I knew about this political body.

17 Q. What was it?

18 A. I knew about it but, being a soldier, I

19 really didn't want to waste my time on it because I was

20 interested in the orders of my superior and the rest --

21 Q. Sir, this indicates, before we go on, this

22 indicates, does it not, that instead of late May or

23 early June of 1993, in fact, Mr. Breljas had become the

24 IPD officer of the Vitezovi Special Purposes Unit at

25 least by the 20th of April. Isn't that correct, sir?

Page 19821

1 A. Perhaps how they had him on, they had him on,

2 is false, but I claimed that he wasn't that as it says

3 here on the 20th of April.

4 Q. Sir, you knew at the time, did you not, that

5 Mr. Kostroman, Ignac Kostroman was a close associate of

6 Mr. Kordic's and another important political figure in

7 Central Bosnia, didn't you?

8 A. I did not because I did not want to tire

9 myself with such things. Politics is politics; is of

10 no interest to me.

11 Q. You say it's of no interest of you but, in

12 fact, Mr. Breljas, by this document, was the political

13 officer in the Vitezovi isn't that correct? You had no

14 interaction with Mr. Breljas as the political officer

15 of the unit?

16 A. Only, I'm telling you, only the beginning of

17 January was when I met Mr. Anto Breljas, but the duties

18 that he had at that time had to do with logistics

19 strictly, no political activities as an IPD.

20 Q. We'll move on. Sir, before we finish this

21 general area, did you ever have any dealings in Central

22 Bosnia with a man named Miso Mijac?

23 A. I don't know a man of that name.

24 Q. And did you ever have any interaction with

25 another Bosnian Croat armed force in Central Bosnia

Page 19822

1 called the Scorpions?

2 A. No.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I just have a couple

4 of more questions, but it's necessary --- I'd ask the

5 Court if we could -- not closed session, but if we

6 could go into private session, because there are some

7 names that will be mentioned, Your Honour.

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22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

23 at 4.05 p.m., to be reconvened on

24 Wednesday the 31st day of May, 2000,

25 at 9.30 a.m.