1 Monday, 5
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 --- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m.
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, as the court knows,
6 Judge Robinson and I are sitting alone today and,
7 indeed, for the rest of this week, probably, since
8 Judge Bennouna is sitting in the Appeal Chamber on a
9 hearing. Yes.
10 MR. NICE: Yes. We understand that as to --
11 is it the first three days, that's covered by the Rule,
12 and as the last two days, by agreement of the parties.
13 But something to that effect, I think.
14 JUDGE MAY: Well, it partly depends how long
15 the hearing in the Appeal Chamber goes on.
16 MR. NICE: Can I raise a few administrative
17 matters before the witness is called.
18 First, last week's last witness, Zoran Maric,
19 was a witness in respect of whom there was considerable
20 pressure to have him finished last week, and we managed
21 to achieve that by the end of Friday afternoon. It was
22 only on the basis that a large part of what I would
23 have asked him about necessarily was abandoned. I'm
24 quite happy about that, but I think probably I ought,
25 where it was so substantial, the amount that was
1 abandoned, to record at least for the record some of
2 the topics I simply wasn't in a position to cover in
3 the time available. And I didn't cover the second half
4 of '92, I didn't deal with the considerable quantity of
5 documents he produced, I wasn't able to cover the
6 numerous affidavits in support, or deal with his
7 account of the start of the war, or what he said about
8 Mr. Hadzimelic.
9 If I turn to this week, we received
10 yesterday, in the afternoon, a couple of summaries, one
11 for the first witness and one, I think, for the second
12 or third. These witnesses are political, and although
13 I'm not objecting to them on the grounds that they are
14 experts, they are very close to being expert in some of
15 their content, and therefore I need considerably more
16 assistance than I do for ordinary fact witnesses. Thus
17 the presence here today -- the Chamber knows what I
18 said last week about accommodation, and if the Chamber
19 has any ability to influence accommodation available to
20 this Chamber, I would be grateful for any help it can
21 give, for, as you'll see, the problem relates not just
22 to this week's witnesses but, I suspect, to the
23 witnesses who are to follow.
24 The current interpretation on the requirement
25 to provide a witness list, so far as the Defence is
1 concerned, is to give only a fortnight, and that means,
2 as I understand it, where there's a week where we're
3 not sitting, like next week, we know nothing more than
4 the witnesses for this week. That is to be contrasted
5 with what the Prosecution provided, which was never
6 less than six weeks and as long as possible, right up
7 to the end of the case.
8 We were served with two expert reports last
9 Monday and three more yesterday. Now, that means that
10 the earliest date upon which experts could be called as
11 to the two would be the week of the 20th, and as to the
12 three, would be the week of the 26th. Calling those
13 witnesses on those weeks would, of course, give us the
14 minimum time to prepare for them, and of course it
15 can't be that those are already planned dates, because
16 no doubt the Defence would have told us about them if
17 they were. However, if it's any -- if there is an
18 intention to call those expert witnesses as soon as
19 that, and I again remind the Chamber that we spread our
20 experts throughout the evidence and gave as much notice
21 as we possibly could, but if there's any intention to
22 call experts on the weeks of the 20th or the 26th, I
23 may be in difficulties if I cannot obtain the necessary
24 assistance in relation to those expert reports in the
25 time available.
1 I'm not here simply to --
2 [Trial Chamber confers]
3 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, if we can deal with
4 this. What are you asking?
5 MR. NICE: Well, I'm simply serving notice of
6 two things, really. One, of course I'll do everything
7 I can to ensure I'm properly equipped with expert
8 opinion to cross-examine these witnesses, but I'm not
9 going to cross-examine witnesses without the
10 appropriate expertise, so that it will help if the
11 Defence will tell us when these witnesses are
12 scheduled. I will try and make arrangements
13 accordingly, and those arrangements will, of course,
14 include having, it may be, those witnesses available in
15 court to assist me while the Defence witnesses are
16 giving evidence, particularly where those experts are
17 themselves attacked in strong terms in the Defence
18 expert's report. But generally, and again the Chamber
19 will recall, that my suggestion right at beginning
20 was --
21 THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down,
23 MR. NICE: [Previous interpretation
24 continues]... conventionally regarded, in some places,
25 as the most helpful.
1 But I must serve notice that it is by no
2 means guaranteed that I will be able, in all cases, to
3 be properly equipped to cross-examine these experts if
4 they are called in the weeks of the 20th or the 26th.
5 JUDGE MAY: The question which we have to ask
6 first is that you require these experts to give
7 evidence --
8 MR. NICE: Certainly, in all cases.
9 JUDGE MAY: -- or to be cross-examined?
10 MR. NICE: Yes.
11 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
12 MR. NICE: And in respect of at least one,
13 there may be preliminary arguments about
15 So that's a problem, and I think the answer
16 is for the Defence to give us as much notice as they
17 can as to their witness list and to ask to see what
18 problems there may be. Experts will, of course, once
19 again create problems of accommodation.
20 Those are the only matters that are general.
21 JUDGE MAY: Well, let's deal with this one
23 Mr. Sayers, when is it proposed to call these
25 MR. SAYERS: Two experts will be called
1 during the week of the 20th as our third and fourth
3 JUDGE MAY: It will be subject to our
4 agreement, before you make that arrangement. Which two
5 are those?
6 MR. SAYERS: Dr. Schrader will be the fourth
7 witness, and Professor Jankovich, the Zenica shelling
8 expert, will be the third witness that week.
9 JUDGE MAY: What are their topics?
10 MR. SAYERS: Dr. Schrader is a military
11 expert who will provide a variety of insights as to
12 troop dispositions, strategic plans and so forth along
13 the lines of Mr. Elford, but his report is somewhat
14 more detailed. And Professor Jankovich is an artillery
15 ballistics expert who will provide testimony, as I
16 forecast earlier in a very abbreviated fashion, related
17 to the Zenica shelling allegations made by the
18 Prosecution in this case.
19 JUDGE MAY: And the other experts?
20 MR. SAYERS: There are two -- there are three
21 other experts, Your Honour; Dr. Stjepan Mestrovic, who
22 is a sociologist, and we propose to call him during the
23 week of the 26th of June.
24 JUDGE MAY: What relevant evidence does he
1 MR. SAYERS: He addresses the evidence
2 offered by Dr. Allcock and others. Then there is a
3 historian by the name of Mark Almond from the Oriel
4 College, Oxford, who addresses historical issues of the
5 type reviewed by Dr. Donia in the Prosecution case.
6 And then our final expert, who we haven't actually
7 lined up to testify yet at any specific point, is Bruce
8 Koenig, who is the audiotape expert.
9 JUDGE MAY: Dr. Almond is the week of the
11 MR. SAYERS: Yes.
12 JUDGE MAY: And the other one is undecided
13 and undated?
14 MR. SAYERS: Correct. He will not testify
15 during the week of the 26th, I can assure the Court of
16 that, or before.
17 JUDGE MAY: And so far you've served
18 Dr. Schrader and Professor Jankovich; is that right?
19 MR. SAYERS: We've served all of them, Your
21 JUDGE MAY: They haven't come through to us.
22 Very well.
23 MR. SAYERS: And if I could just explain to
24 the Court, in conformity with the plan that we've had
25 throughout the Defence case, we're trying to present
1 discreet areas of testimony with all of the witnesses
2 relating to a particular area, such as, for the last
3 two weeks, the Busovaca witnesses testified.
4 This week we propose to have people who
5 occupy prominent positions on the national level
6 testify, two confidential witnesses, two in open
7 session, and then next week there will be two more
8 witnesses along those lines, the former Minister of
9 Justice, Mr. Buntic, and a minister of reconstruction
10 in the HR HB government, Mr. Robovic.
11 JUDGE MAY: You will stay within relevant
12 lines on these witnesses.
13 MR. SAYERS: Absolutely. We have borne that
14 in mind, and I hope the Trial Chamber will appreciate
15 that working with these witnesses to keep outlines
16 within the relevant lines presents some challenges, and
17 I hope and I think we have done that.
18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you. Yes.
19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, now that we know the
20 time table, we will make arrangements we can and I will
21 report back as soon as I have results, but with short
22 notice I may not be able to secure the assistance I
24 Can I turn please lastly to today's
25 witness -- are we now in closed session or private
2 Can I make the observation in open session
3 then? If necessary, we can go to private session for
4 the usual reasons. We know nothing of the grounds upon
5 which closed session is sought because these matters
6 were dealt with ex parte.
7 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
8 MR. NICE: And we would challenge the
9 appropriateness of this witness giving evidence in
10 closed session.
11 JUDGE MAY: Yes, we bear that in mind, we'll
12 call the witness.
13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,
14 before the witness comes in, on behalf of the two
15 accused, Mr. Kordic and Mr. Cerkez, to seek apologies
16 for being without their jackets today. Something
17 happened with the transport and they lost their jackets
18 on the way. That's what I rose to say. I apologise on
19 their behalf.
20 JUDGE MAY: There's no need to apologise for
21 that. If they feel more comfortable without their
22 jackets, they can come without their jackets it's a
23 matter for them.
24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.
25 MR. NICE: I should have said one other thing
1 while the witness is coming in, for reasons that I
2 shan't go into at the moment, I definitely will not be
3 able to conclude my cross-examination of this witness
5 JUDGE MAY: I think he's listed for two days
7 [Closed session]
13 pages 20286-20428 redacted – closed session
20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned
21 at 4.10 p.m., to be reconvened on
22 Tuesday, the 6th day of June, 2000, at
23 9.30 a.m.