Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 21684

1 Wednesday, 28 June 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.36 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness take the

7 declaration.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I solemnly

9 declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,

10 and nothing but the truth.


12 [Witness answered through interpreter]

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. If you'd like to take a

14 seat.

15 Yes, Mr. Naumovski.

16 MR. NAUMOVSKI: Thank you, Your Honour.

17 Examined by Mr. Naumovski:

18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Marusic. Please be so kind

19 as to give the Honourable Judges your exact name and

20 surname.

21 A. I'm Ivo Marusic. I was born on the 17th of

22 September, 1965, in the village of Jasvine,

23 municipality of Busovaca.

24 Q. Very well. Thank you. I'm going to lead you

25 as far as your C.V. is concerned so we'll get through

Page 21685

1 that quickly. You completed elementary school in

2 Busovaca, and your secondary education, the Mining and

3 Geological School, in Zenica; is that right?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. After finishing secondary school in 1984, you

6 did your compulsory military service in the JNA; is

7 that right?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Upon completing your military service, you

10 enrolled at the mechanical engineering faculty in

11 Zenica. However, due to the aggression against

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina in 1991, or rather 1992, and your

13 wish to take part in the defence of your homeland, you

14 interrupted your studies; is that right?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. After the end of the war in 1994, you

17 continued your studies at the university of Mostar,

18 where you graduated in 1995. You are a mechanical

19 engineer by profession.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. From the beginning of 1993 to May 1994, you

22 were a member of the 1st Company or the 1st Battalion

23 of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade in Busovaca.

24 However, you hold no military rank; is that right?

25 A. Yes.

Page 21686

1 Q. On the 16th of March, 1996, you began to work

2 as the head of the defence office in Busovaca. You

3 worked there until the 1st of March, 1999.

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. On the 1st of March, 1999, you were

6 transferred to the police administration in Busovaca,

7 where you work until the present day, and you are now

8 head of the Busovaca police station; is that correct?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Mr. Marusic, I would now like to draw your

11 attention to the following. Actually, for the reasons

12 why you are here in this Court today. As you were head

13 of the defence office in Busovaca, one of your duties

14 was to submit proposals for awarding decorations to

15 persons who had given a certain contribution during the

16 war to the defence against the Serb, that is, Muslim

17 aggression during the war; is that right?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. You submitted these proposals for persons who

20 were employed in your office, who were employed then,

21 that is, or who were employed earlier?

22 A. Yes, that's right.

23 Q. Tell me, please: These persons for whom you

24 submitted proposals in October, were they only

25 civilians or not?

Page 21687

1 A. They were exclusively civilians.

2 Q. While you were submitting this request, you

3 did not have enough personal knowledge as to who were

4 all the persons who worked in that office before,

5 because, as we said a few minutes ago, you were

6 rank-and-file soldier during the war, so I imagine that

7 you asked around, you consulted people in the

8 municipality of Busovaca about who these persons who

9 worked in this office before you came there were.

10 A. That's right. I just started working in the

11 office after the war, in 1996.

12 THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness please

13 speak into the microphone. The interpreters can't hear

14 him.

15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

16 Q. I imagine you talked to the head of the

17 municipality at that time, Mr. Nikola Grubesic.

18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, we're getting a

19 request that the witness speak into the microphone.

20 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Yes.

21 Q. Could you speak up a bit, Mr. Marusic,

22 please.

23 A. Very well.

24 MR. NICE: And can I request that the

25 evidence be not led at this stage.

Page 21688

1 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Did you understand this question, or should I

3 repeat it?

4 A. Yes, I understood you. I started working in

5 the defence office in 1996, in March, that is to say,

6 the end of the war. Since I was a soldier, I had not

7 worked in these institutions. That is to say that I

8 was not familiar with who held which post and who were

9 all the persons who worked in the defence office from

10 1991 until the end of the war. So at one of the

11 meetings that was held with the head of the

12 municipality at that time, Nikola Grubesic, and also

13 the former head of the office, Mr. Katava, I had a

14 conversation as to who were all the people who passed

15 through this office, who worked in this office, and who

16 had certain merits for it.

17 Q. You acted upon instructions, the instructions

18 that you got from the office in Travnik, and according

19 to these instructions, you were supposed to submit the

20 names of persons who are either employed in the

21 Busovaca defence office or who worked there earlier; is

22 that correct?

23 A. Yes, we had instructions from the

24 administration of defence in Travnik; that is to say,

25 at the level of this administration, eight decorations

Page 21689

1 could have been proposed for ten offices all together;

2 that is to say, that these decorations were to be

3 bestowed only upon persons who worked in these defence

4 offices as civilians, who worked there earlier or who

5 were still employed there; that is, so I proposed,

6 after these consultations were held and all the rest, I

7 decided to propose two men for these decorations.

8 So in October 1996, I proposed Mr. Vinko

9 Markovic who was an official of the office then and

10 still is, as well as Mr. Kordic who worked as head of

11 the office from 1991 until the beginning of 1992.

12 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, you personally

13 signed this proposal both for Mr. Kordic and for

14 Mr. Markovic; is that right?

15 A. Yes. I signed this proposal. I mean I wrote

16 the text of this proposal and Mr. Markovic, who is an

17 employee at the office anyway, and who was in charge of

18 typing this up did so. So when he completed the

19 typing, I decided to sign it.

20 Q. If I understand you correctly, you made a

21 draft of this text. When Mr. Markovic typed it out,

22 you approved it, so to speak, and you signed it; is

23 that right?

24 A. Yes, that's right.

25 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Could the

Page 21690

1 witness please be shown Exhibit D1477. I'm sorry,

2 Z1477, there's been a mistake.

3 Q. The front page has been put on the ELMO.

4 Tell me, please, this front page that we see on the

5 ELMO now, that is the proposal that you signed and that

6 you sent to the administration of defence in Travnik?

7 A. This is the accompanying letter with the

8 proposal that was sent. This is a form. This page is

9 an accompanying document along with the proposal.

10 Q. So the proposal that you made was actually

11 this form. You filled out this form that you had

12 received, and this is how proposals were submitted?

13 A. Yes. This is a form and that is what we got

14 along with the request for the submission of

15 proposals. This proposal is called D1.

16 Q. Tell me, Mr. Marusic, please, when drafting

17 these proposals both for Mr. Markovic and for

18 Mr. Kordic, what kind of words did you use? What kind

19 of words did you use when you made these proposals, and

20 what is customary, generally speaking, when such

21 proposals are being drafted?

22 A. Well, before, in the administration for

23 defence in Travnik, we had a meeting, consultations

24 with regard to filling out these forms. It was

25 customary for these proposals to be filled out quite

Page 21691

1 carefully and they were supposed to be spruced up, so

2 to speak. We were supposed to pay attention to every

3 word, in a way.

4 Q. If I understand what you're saying, your

5 instructions were to do this through chosen words; is

6 that what you are trying to say and is that customary?

7 A. Well, yes. Every decoration had --

8 Q. Well, we'll go back to that later. Now we're

9 talking about the form. You have before you the

10 proposal for Mr. Kordic, and there is a text here under

11 item 15. The text that you wrote or rather signed.

12 Tell me, please, to the best of your knowledge, was

13 Mr. Kordic a military person or not?

14 A. Well, to my knowledge, he was not a military

15 person. He was a civilian person. He was an official

16 in the office of defence during that period of time,

17 and that is a civilian institution an exclusively

18 civilian institution.

19 Q. Tell me, please, you personally, you are

20 familiar with the contribution that Mr. Kordic gave at

21 that time precisely while he was an official in the

22 defence office in Busovaca in 1991 and somewhat later?

23 A. Yes, I personally know about this. He played

24 a significant role on several occasions together with

25 other citizens. He went out into the streets to block

Page 21692

1 the passage of convoys of the former JNA that were

2 coming to the territory of Busovaca and they wished to

3 go further. He gave quite a contribution because at

4 that time he was head of the defence office.

5 His significant contribution lay in the fact

6 that together with the then head of the TO

7 headquarters, Mr. Hadzimejlic, he deferred the

8 departure of conscripts to the former JNA which

9 resounded rather favourably. That would have meant that

10 we would have fought against ourselves, that we would

11 be killing ourselves through the Yugoslav People's

12 Army.

13 Q. Very well. Tell me, please, you were a

14 member of the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade for over a

15 year, that is to say, in 1993 and part of 1994. Did

16 you ever hear of Mr. Kordic having issued an order to

17 the Nikola Subic-Zrinjski Brigade or any other military

18 unit?

19 A. I never heard of Mr. Kordic having issued any

20 kind of order. We received our orders exclusively

21 through the command, the headquarters of the 1st

22 Battalion and the 1st Battalion from the brigade

23 command.

24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation]

25 Mr. Naumovski, in the document you have submitted to

Page 21693

1 us, and which we can no longer see, maybe it might be

2 useful to put it on the ELMO, I'd like to ask this of

3 the witness. He says that Mr. Kordic had no military

4 role whatsoever, that he only had a civilian role. How

5 does he understand the following sentence if he indeed

6 signed this document, where it is stated that [In

7 English] "Of all of the Croats in central Bosnia, he

8 played a key role in all the battles." [In French]

9 Can a civilian play a key role, a central role in all

10 battles?

11 Now, how does the witness understand that

12 sentence?

13 A. Well, this sentence, at the end of the text,

14 as far as I understood it, that is to say, this was a

15 turning point in all the battles. At quite a few

16 times, it was rather difficult at the front line, quite

17 a few people lost their lives. We were encircled, and

18 day after day, we were in a situation that we could not

19 be replaced by anyone. There was no one to replace

20 us. When we would get home, we did not even have

21 sufficient morale. When I personally, for instance,

22 when I would come home, I would be so tired and I

23 really didn't have much morale.

24 My parents told me that they heard from

25 Mr. Kordic that he was addressing the people and that

Page 21694

1 he said that we were the ones who had to remain in that

2 area. So he, amongst the civilians, constituted this

3 turning point. He was one of the persons who made it

4 possible for us to fight so hard at the front line, and

5 to be entrenched there. So in spite of being

6 outnumbered, we could not be chased out of this area by

7 anyone. This was a key thing with regard to our

8 survival and to the war in general.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Well, you've

10 failed to answer my question. You didn't quite answer

11 it. You say he played a key role in all the battles.

12 Does that mean that he had authority in the way the

13 battles were conducted?

14 A. He did not have authority. I emphasise

15 that. He was a turning point in the struggle. That is

16 to say, when we were on the ground, when we were

17 engaged in battle, when there were crises, sometimes

18 some people would even run away from the front line in

19 order to get their families out of the area, to try to

20 get out somehow. The families at home would hear,

21 through the mass media at that time, these messages

22 that were being sent out. So he only sent these

23 messages to civilians, not to the military. On the one

24 hand, we received orders at the front line from the

25 military, from the headquarters, whereas civilians were

Page 21695

1 receiving such messages from Mr. Kordic. He was

2 addressing himself to all the expellees. He was going

3 to see them in all the places they were staying,

4 et cetera.

5 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you.

6 Q. We can proceed straight away after this

7 question put by the Honourable Judge Bennouna.

8 So by way of a metaphor you explained this

9 moral support that was given by Mr. Kordic; is that

10 right?

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Naumovski, let the witness

12 give the evidence about this. It's obviously an

13 important issue. Let him explain what he meant.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you for

15 having cautioned me, Your Honour. I do apologise.

16 A. Well, at any rate, this turning point, this

17 meant hope and faith in our survival. This was an

18 address to the population. These were messages that

19 were being sent to us that in spite of all these

20 horrors and in spite of the large numbers of the enemy,

21 we had a chance of staying. So the messages that were

22 being conveyed were these messages of boosting morale,

23 that we could stay on if we were united.

24 Q. Tell me, please: We said already that this

25 proposal was made on a form, by way of a form, OD-1.

Page 21696

1 Please look at item 15 in this form, especially this

2 instruction that is given in very fine print at the end

3 of item 15 in the Croat text. Could you please read

4 these instructions. How was this supposed to be

5 written? Please read these instructions at the end of

6 column 15.

7 A. "Due to the unique historic importance of the

8 decoration, take particular care when preparing this

9 text. Do not use abbreviations in the text. Should

10 the award be approved, the recommended text will be

11 recorded in the award certificate."

12 Q. Tell us, please: The instructions here under

13 item 15, what kind of an effect did this have on you?

14 What conclusion did you draw on this basis? What were

15 you supposed to write out in the proposal, and how were

16 you supposed to write out this proposal? In which way?

17 A. I composed this proposal a few times. I

18 redrafted it. Whenever I would write it out, it did

19 not seem sufficient to me. It seemed to me that I had

20 to spruce it up. There was an additional

21 responsibility involved in terms of this decoration,

22 because if the decoration were to be awarded, these

23 words, this text, would be written out during the

24 conferral of the decoration itself. So I tried to

25 choose each and every word so that it would carry a

Page 21697

1 certain weight.

2 Q. So after you did what you say you did, and

3 improved that text in line with these instructions, you

4 signed the text, as you just told us?

5 A. Yes. I signed it personally and sent it to

6 the defence administration in Travnik.

7 Q. Tell us, please: In the introductory part of

8 the document, under the item 8, part 1, particulars, 3,

9 it says "rank" and it says "brigadier." Will you tell

10 us, please: Once the information about the rank -- and

11 what kind of a rank is it, to your knowledge, and when

12 was it conferred upon?

13 A. So this information comes from our records,

14 from the card, from the personal card, and this is a

15 rank of reserve officers conferred upon persons who

16 were not active-duty army members but were nevertheless

17 awarded the rank. We have such ranks. Every -- well,

18 now every politician in Busovaca had such a rank of

19 various military services, from infantry to --

20 Q. Tell us, please: The Court has already heard

21 testimony of [indiscernible] from Busovaca, Mr.

22 Grubesic, Zoran Maric. They are all civilians. I do

23 not think that is in question.

24 A. Correct.

25 Q. And that they shared political duties for the

Page 21698

1 duration of the war?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. So tell us, please: To your knowledge, do

4 they also have some reserve ranks?

5 A. Yes, they do. I've just said so.

6 Practically all the politicians were awarded these

7 ranks, and I personally know, for instance, about Zoran

8 Maric and Niko Grubesic, that they had some ranks too,

9 even if somewhat lower.

10 Q. So these honorary ranks were conferred upon

11 them for their political work during the war, for the

12 civilian duties they discharged?

13 A. Correct.

14 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

15 we should like to adduce only one exhibit, and we shall

16 be over soon. This will be the final subject we wish

17 to raise.

18 Mr. Usher, will you please help me.

19 THE REGISTRAR: The document will be marked

20 D283/1.

21 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation]

22 Q. Mr. Marusic, will you tell us, please: To

23 your knowledge, did Mr. Kordic and Mr. Markovic,

24 pursuant to this proposal, ever conferred upon these

25 decorations for which they were nominated [as

Page 21699

1 interpreted]?

2 A. As far as I know, none of them received the

3 decorations, because had they received them, I would

4 have known, because they were sent to the office. And

5 as I already said, we had those official ceremonies of

6 the award of decorations, which means they did not get

7 them.

8 Q. Thank you very much. Will you please look at

9 this. This is a letter from the State Commission for

10 Military Decorations of the Republic of Croatia. And

11 it says that not only did Mr. Kordic never receive the

12 decoration, but that this proposal was never filed with

13 them. Is that so?

14 A. Yes.

15 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you

16 Mr. Marusic, thank you Your Honours, I have no further

17 questions.

18 MR. MIKULICIC: No questions, Your Honour.

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I ask that the last

20 document, of course, which would typically have been a

21 matter of live evidence or affidavit evidence, I didn't

22 object to it, although I can see the point that was

23 arising evidentially from it. I'm not in any position

24 to deal with it, and I don't accept it. There's

25 nothing I can do about it. It's a way of getting

Page 21700

1 evidence in just by a letter.

2 Cross-examined by Mr. Nice:

3 Q. Now, Mr. Marusic, His Honour Judge Bennouna

4 asked you some questions, but before that you had

5 signed a not very long summary of your evidence. Do

6 you remember signing that summary apparently on the

7 26th of June?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And when you signed that summary, were you

10 satisfied that everything in it was accurate and

11 complete?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. And the particular question of His Honour

14 Judge Bennouna didn't lead to you think that anything

15 you had said might have been inaccurate or incomplete

16 in the summary, didn't trigger some further

17 recollection of how it was you had made this

18 recommendation for an award?

19 A. I didn't quite understand what you were

20 asking me.

21 Q. It's a difficult point. The question by the

22 Learned Judge didn't lead you suddenly to think, "Oh,

23 dear, I've forgot about something and I should have put

24 it in my statement."

25 A. Well, I didn't have anything else to add to

Page 21701

1 my statement. That was the summary of the statement.

2 Yeah, I am here to speak.

3 Q. Let me just eliminate a couple of points.

4 You're not here to talk about Busovaca generally or

5 about your time in the army, and I'm not going to ask,

6 without leave, any questions about those matters. But

7 just tell me, please, your service as a private in the

8 1st Battalion of the brigade from the beginning of 1993

9 and until May 1994 took you to which areas in general?

10 Where were you involved in fighting?

11 A. Only on the front near my place of residence;

12 that is, Roske Stijene, Bare, towards Rovna, that was

13 the front line, and I was often assigned to stand guard

14 by -- at Roske Stijene by the water supply system.

15 Q. So you were essentially operating only on a

16 very local basis; is that correct?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Well, I'm not going to ask you any matters of

19 detail about that. Between May 1994 and the time when

20 you took up the job at the defence office, you were

21 back at your studies, I think, in Mostar.

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. And you took up the job in the defence

24 office, what, immediately on graduating?

25 A. Not quite. I graduated in 1995 and I worked

Page 21702

1 as a trainee for the Vitezit company in Vitez until

2 March and then I moved over to the defence office. So

3 between September 1995 and -- I worked for Vitezit

4 until I joined the office department, I worked for the

5 Vitezit company.

6 Q. The head of the defence office might sound to

7 be a quite senior position for a fresh graduate, on the

8 other hand, it may be a very small office so that there

9 are only one or two people there. Is the head of the

10 defence office quite a senior post?

11 A. No.

12 Q. How many people in the office at that time in

13 1996, just so that we have the picture?

14 A. Well, yes, it is relatively high. There were

15 14 people there and I assumed the duty -- I mean after

16 the war in those territories, practically all the young

17 people who had come out of school, a larger number had

18 gone abroad and, in a way, I came as a trainee without

19 any noteworthy experience, except that I had graduated

20 from university because, of course, there were certain

21 terms for that job that one had to have the university

22 degree. And had I come out of mechanical engineering,

23 so I wasn't really qualified, because they were asking

24 for a degree in humanities, but since those other

25 people were in short supply, were not available, so I

Page 21703

1 simply took up that office. I moved from the company

2 that I had worked for to that particular job.

3 Q. Well, did you have any connections, were you

4 a member of the party, anything like that, just so that

5 we have the picture complete in order to get that job?

6 A. Well, when I was in Mostar, that is, I had

7 not even gone back home yet, others were asking whether

8 I would be coming or not so as to nominate me. And

9 I've just told you there were very few qualified people

10 in the area so that it wasn't all that difficult to get

11 the job like that.

12 And I started working in my profession as a

13 professional, but in Vitezit, my salary was 300 German

14 marks and over there, it was twice as high. So that I

15 decided to change, and I was a supporter of that party

16 and that was, at the time, the only party among the

17 Croats.

18 Q. You tell us that your inquiries were made to

19 various people. Can you just name the people to whom

20 you addressed questions before preparing this

21 recommendation for an award? Who did you ask, in

22 particular?

23 A. I said so, there were meetings of the

24 municipal government in the municipal hall, and Jedinko

25 Katava, who held that post before me, still works for

Page 21704

1 the municipal government, but he is with the office of

2 economy so that he was also at the meeting, and I

3 talked to him and also to Mr. Gavro Maric who, at that

4 time, discharged the duty of the head after Mr. Dario

5 Kordic and now is with the defence administration in

6 Travnik.

7 Q. Mr. Gavro Maric, was it? Is that the person

8 you asked?

9 A. Yes. Gavro Maric works at the defence

10 administration in Travnik and I was at a meeting there

11 too when we talked about how the form had to be

12 filled. He, for a while, headed the office after

13 Mr. Kordic and then he moved over to the

14 administration -- the defence administration and now

15 works there and we received this from the defence

16 administration, this thing to nominate.

17 Q. Then you spoke to one of the Grubesics?

18 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice,

19 please.

20 MR. NICE:

21 Q. Then you spoke to one of the Grubesics, who

22 was that?

23 A. Niko Grubesic. Well, he was the head of the

24 municipality and he was also at that meeting and

25 Jedinko Katava, the former one, so there was at the

Page 21705

1 same time conversation with Mr. Katava and

2 Mr. Grubesic.

3 Q. These are the important people you were

4 speaking to, was there any other important person that

5 you spoke to about these matters?

6 A. Well, that was enough for me.

7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

8 with all due apologies, I do not want to interfere, but

9 just this moment, I've spotted a mistake between the

10 English and Serbo-Croatian translation.

11 MR. NICE: Very well, if it's on the text, I

12 won't interrupt, sorry.

13 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] It's the

14 name, it's the name. In paragraph six, and the witness

15 said today he was talking to the then municipal mayor,

16 Niko Grubesic, and in the English text it says Zoran

17 Maric. That is the difference. I do apologise, but

18 this is indeed, a slip and I've just spotted it. I do

19 apologise.

20 MR. NICE: Can I see, please, the original

21 version of this witness' summary in Serbo-Croat, in

22 Croatian? Can I see it, please? If it's really wrong,

23 I will, of course, accept it.

24 I'll come back to that in a minute.

25 Q. Mr. Niko Grubesic, to whom you say you spoke,

Page 21706

1 would no doubt have a recollection of this important

2 inquiry about granting an award to Mr. Kordic, yes?

3 A. Well, I don't know if he does. I suppose he

4 does.

5 MR. NICE: Can Your Honour give me a minute?

6 I think you better have this document -- it better go

7 on the ELMO. I'm afraid we've put a circle around the

8 word and I'm confused. I'd like to -- I would be

9 assisted by name from the defence if they are saying

10 that this is the only signed version of a Croatian

11 version of this summary.

12 Q. What we can see on the ELMO, if you'd like to

13 look at it, please, Mr. Marusic, what we can see on the

14 ELMO in the Croatian version is that in paragraph six,

15 you make reference to the head of the municipality Niko

16 Grubesic. In the English version that we've been

17 supplied, the municipality leader is Zoran Maric. Can

18 you explain that from wherever the offices were that

19 this document was prepared? Can you explain how it

20 could be that what's set out there, apparently, as Niko

21 Grubesic is completely transposed as Zoran Maric? Was

22 there any mention of Zoran Maric by you?

23 A. I did not mention Mr. Zoran Maric within this

24 context. I mentioned Zoran Maric within the context of

25 these ranks. That is, that Niko Grubesic and Zoran

Page 21707

1 Maric also had those reserve ranks, so perhaps this is

2 how this error was made.

3 Q. Can you also explain how it is that in your

4 summary you make no reference at all to the discussion

5 that you claim to have had with Gavro Maric? Because

6 it's not there in the document at all.

7 A. Well, I mean, he comes from that other

8 establishment, that is, from the defence administration

9 in Travnik.

10 Q. But you spoke about --

11 A. Not mentioned by name. That is, I felt it

12 was not necessary to mention certain names. But

13 because this happened in the office of the head, that

14 is how I mention it. I could have also omitted this

15 name. It could have been the then-head of the

16 municipality and said just that, because I presume it

17 is common knowledge who was the head of the

18 municipality at that time.

19 MR. NICE: Can the witness have Exhibit

20 1477.6, please.

21 Q. Before you made this detailed recommendation,

22 Mr. Marusic, you had to know the type of awards that

23 could be made, didn't you? Didn't you?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Where did you obtain the information as to

Page 21708

1 what type of award could be made, please?

2 A. At a meeting of the Travnik Defence

3 Administration. That is, the Travnik Defence

4 Administration was made of ten offices, and eight

5 awards were envisaged for it. And one could nominate

6 people for decorations from the lowest to the highest,

7 except there was a recommendation. But decorations are

8 not restricted to one office. One could nominate

9 anyone who had sufficient merits.

10 Q. You needed to know the criteria for any

11 particular proposed decoration, didn't you?

12 A. Well, there were certain criteria; that is,

13 there was, well, service during a period of time. And

14 we complied with criteria which at that time, in the

15 organisation of the defence, and that is people who

16 made a significant contribution, so as to have those

17 people in the early days of the service, when we had it

18 worst.

19 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, the usher is

20 standing and waiting.

21 MR. NICE: I'm sorry. Yes. I prepared him

22 too early. If I can just ask a couple more questions.

23 I don't want to trouble the usher, but if he can stand

24 there for a couple of seconds.

25 Q. Mr. Marusic, you must have had written

Page 21709

1 criteria; correct? You can't just do it on guesswork.

2 You must have had written criteria.

3 A. Travnik Defence Administration received the

4 criteria from the Ministry of Defence of the

5 then-Herceg-Bosna, so the criteria which had to be

6 taken into account.

7 Q. Let's look at them, and if you'd like to have

8 the original -- do you speak English, in fact?

9 A. No.

10 Q. If you'd like to have the original, and if

11 the usher would be good enough, please, to lay the

12 first English sheet, which begins Article 1 and 2, on

13 the ELMO.

14 Now, what you were dealing with, you must

15 have appreciated, was military decorations intended for

16 members of the Croatian army. You appreciated that,

17 didn't you?

18 A. Well, at that time there was one set of

19 rules, at the time, that is, after the war, when all

20 the military institutions were nominating for

21 decorations. So that those members of the office who

22 had made -- announced any contribution, because the war

23 lasted until the end of 1995 and the army was still

24 engaged. Those people who stayed in the formations and

25 also the members of the office who had made an

Page 21710

1 outstanding contribution --

2 Q. The answer to my question is yes, you

3 appreciated you were dealing with military decorations

4 for members of the Croatian army; yes?

5 A. This is the instruction about military

6 decorations. There are no other instructions. But we

7 also requested that employees of our own institutions

8 and of civilian institutions also be awarded for their

9 merits. Now, the problem -- yes, of course the

10 difficulty is true, that we had this tentative act

11 about decorations, and now it had to be reworded and

12 use the terminology for us who were the civilian part

13 of the Ministry of Defence. And we were trying, at all

14 costs, that we, as a civilian institution, also be

15 awarded certain decorations for our merits.

16 Q. Of course you must be allowed to answer at

17 length if it's truly helpful, but you've used the words

18 "tentative act." Are you saying that some other

19 document, some proposal in written form that we all

20 ought to be looking at, to explain what it is you were

21 doing in making this recommendation? Or do you accept

22 that you were making a proposal to Croatia for a

23 military decoration, as I've just suggested? Which is

24 it?

25 A. It wasn't a proposal. I've just -- I don't

Page 21711

1 really know how you understood me. We reworded this

2 military decoration. That is, we tried to take this,

3 to send it for employees, because we were employees of

4 the Ministry of Defence, but we were civilians.

5 Q. Please look at the second entry on this first

6 page. It says:

7 "The Grand Order of Petar Kresimir IV with

8 Sash and Morning Star." And if we look, or if the

9 Judges remember, what you were proposing was a

10 decoration of the order of King Petar Kresimir IV with

11 Sash and Morning Star.

12 If the usher would be good enough to move to

13 the second page of the exhibit on the ELMO, and if you

14 would like to turn to the second page of the original,

15 what we find is this, in the law on decorations and

16 Honours in the Republic of Croatia. In the middle of

17 the page it says this, in bold letters:

18 "The president of the Republic of Croatia

19 confers decorations on the basis of a legal document

20 entitled 'The Decision on the Conferral of Decorations'

21 on his own initiative or that of the State Commission

22 for Decorations and Honours. The Commission for

23 Decorations and honours is part of the Ministry of

24 Defence of the Republic of Croatia. After processing

25 incoming nominations, it submits them to the State

Page 21712

1 Commission for Decorations and Honours. The Commission

2 members are officers of the Croatian army who make

3 their decisions on the basis of standards of

4 consistency, exclusively at sessions of the

5 Commission."

6 Now, you were making an application for an

7 award in line with these regulations, weren't you?

8 A. Well, while we were deliberating the

9 proposal, the nomination that we should make for

10 Mr. Kordic, we tried -- because it was of a very local

11 nature, we wanted to have a man who would become a

12 bearer of a high decoration, because everybody thought

13 him an honest and honourable man and we thought that it

14 would be good for us to have in our midst a man --

15 Q. I am going to stop you. If what you're

16 saying is suitable for further examination,

17 Mr. Kordic's counsel can deal with it. Will you please

18 answer my question. You were making an application for

19 an award in line with, in accordance with, these

20 regulations. Now, yes or no?

21 A. Well, in a manner of speaking; that is, we,

22 in a way -- this was merely a basis for us to

23 propose -- it was difficult to reword it for our

24 institution. We wanted to get decorations. We wanted

25 people to be awarded. But we did not have it -- we did

Page 21713

1 not have the instruction for that part.

2 Q. But who were you applying to for an award if

3 not to Croatia? Can we see it on the form? Were you

4 applying to Mr. Boban for an award or the mayor of the

5 municipality? Who were you applying to? You were

6 applying to Croatia; correct?

7 A. Well, we were in charge of sending this

8 proposal to the defence administration of Travnik, and

9 then further on there were these other levels through

10 the Ministry of Defence.

11 Q. I see. So you don't know where it was

12 going.

13 A. Well, all decorations -- well, I think they

14 were supposed to go to the Republic of Croatia, but at

15 that time, in then-Herceg-Bosna, we did not have any

16 decorations of our own, so that is what was used. I

17 mean, these rules, that's what was asked for.

18 Q. Can we turn to the next sheet in the

19 English. Make sure it's the right one. And you can

20 turn, please, to the next sheet in your version. And

21 this is Article 8, which is the criteria for this

22 award. It says this:

23 "The Grand Order of ..." And then, first of

24 all, it's Queen Jelena, "... and the Grand Order of

25 Petar Kresimir IV with Sash and Morning Star, is

Page 21714

1 conferred upon: dignitaries, high-ranking state

2 officials, and heads of international organisations for

3 their contributions to the international prestige and

4 position of the Republic of Croatia."

5 That is not the grounds for which you sought

6 an award for Mr. Kordic, is it?

7 A. No. These were not grounds for that.

8 Q. Item 2. Croatian and foreign speakers of

9 parliament and prime ministers for exceptional

10 contributions to the independence and integrity of

11 the -- next page -- Republic of Croatia, the

12 establishment and advancement of the Republic of

13 Croatia, and extraordinary contributions to the

14 fostering of relations between the Republic of Croatia

15 and the Croatian people in other states."

16 That was not the criteria upon which you were

17 seeking this award for Mr. Kordic?

18 A. Which article is this? I haven't followed

19 it.

20 Q. My apologies, Article 8 paragraph 2, perhaps

21 you'd like to read it to yourself and then answer the

22 question.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could it please be placed on

24 the ELMO?

25 A. How could I answer this? We tried when

Page 21715

1 proposing this to have as many decorations as

2 possible. At that time, we did not interpret these

3 rules that much. We were just looking at which

4 decorations there were and which decorations we could

5 get and as many as possible and as high level as

6 possible. We did not really go into all of this. We

7 were told that these rules applied to military

8 personnel and that we somehow had to fit into that.

9 Q. The third category is the only one that you

10 relied on and I'll just read it, and then we'll look at

11 your recommendations. "The highest-ranking military

12 officials of the armed forces of the Republic of

13 Croatia for outstanding contributions in developing

14 military strategy and doctrine, for merit in building

15 up the Croatian army and for extraordinary successes in

16 commanding and controlling armed forces units of the

17 Republic of Croatia."

18 It then says, "The grand order is conferred

19 upon the highest-ranking military officials." And

20 that, "Only two orders have been awarded to date."

21 Now that was the category into which you were

22 putting Mr. Kordic, wasn't it?

23 A. Well, I told you we did not really look at

24 how many people had received these decorations. We did

25 not look at the rules that much. We tried to propose

Page 21716

1 as many decorations as possible. We wanted to have a

2 man from our own environment with the highest possible

3 decoration. We were guided by those words that, at the

4 beginning, when these units were being established -- I

5 mean these persons who were not being sent to do their

6 military service, this remained among the people in

7 Busovaca and beyond as the greatest thing.

8 Somebody had to face this army so when we

9 were making these proposals, we were guided by these

10 facts more than we were guided by these rules.

11 Q. I'm going to ask you to have another look,

12 very briefly, at the document that we were looking at

13 before, if that could be laid on the ELMO. It's 1477

14 in the English and I'd like the witness, of course, to

15 have the Croatian version to look at. It's the part 4

16 recommended text.

17 You've told the Judges and I'm just going to

18 have to summarise it that this was all to do with

19 civilians and indeed you emphasised it by saying it was

20 the speeches he made and the things he said simply to

21 civilians. Now, if we look at the text that you wrote

22 with such care, it starts off in this way: "As chief

23 of the Busovaca defence office at the very start of the

24 aggression against the Republic of Croatia, he

25 organised and started all activities aimed at blocking

Page 21717

1 the Serbo-Chetnik military in Central Bosnia."

2 Well that relates to the early part of the

3 conflict, doesn't it? Doesn't it?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. The next sentence, "For his outstanding

6 contribution to the formation of Croatian Defence

7 Council units." HVO units means military units,

8 doesn't it?

9 A. Well, yes.

10 Q. "The creation of war strategy." What is war

11 strategy if it isn't a military activity?

12 A. I -- I told you earlier that when I came to

13 this office, I had just completed my university studies

14 that were technical. My task was to bring this all

15 together in to some kind of an entity so that this text

16 would carry certain weight, and in addition to all of

17 that, I had to choose all these words.

18 Strategy, doctrine; I've been through a war,

19 but until the present day, I don't know what these

20 words really mean.

21 Q. You were building on the information and

22 intelligence given you by other people to whom you

23 spoke; correct?

24 A. I personally knew -- I just asked other

25 people about who worked in this office from 1991 until

Page 21718

1 1994. Over 20 persons had gone through that office in

2 that period of time, there were four or five heads of

3 office.

4 Q. I think you can answer the question. You

5 were building on the information and intelligence given

6 you by other people to whom you spoke; is that not what

7 your very evidence has been, please? Yes or no.

8 A. No. I personally knew about Mr. Kordic's

9 efforts at the very beginning.

10 Q. Thank you. Would you tell us, please, what

11 does "war strategy" mean? Just explain it to the

12 Judges what you meant when you wrote "war strategy".

13 A. For me, then, it meant, well, we were

14 outnumbered and these words that could be heard from

15 Mr. Kordic. I mean, although we were outnumbered,

16 although we had less soldiers, if we were entrenched in

17 this area, that our people at home would be safe and we

18 would be there at the front line entrenched on the

19 ground so that if the enemy were to defeat us, the

20 enemy had to cross our lines, the enemy would actually

21 have to get to our trenches in order to chase us out of

22 there. That is how I understood all of this.

23 So every day I was digging away and other

24 people were already making fun of me because of all

25 this digging. But that's what it meant for me. At the

Page 21719

1 beginning of the conflict, people didn't realise what

2 this war was.

3 Q. We have to move on. Let's look at the

4 last -- the next sentence of this first paragraph.

5 This is what you said, "And for his great success in

6 leading and commanding the Croatian Defence Council

7 units," which we know are military units, "during the

8 Muslim aggression in the Lasva Valley and the wider

9 region."

10 The Muslim aggression in the Lasva Valley

11 relates to 1993, doesn't it?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Not to any earlier period?

14 A. Well, no.

15 Q. Well, then, can you please tell us, and

16 perhaps the witness should have his summary, I don't

17 mind in which version, can you explain to us why, in

18 paragraph nine of your summary, please -- have you got

19 the version before you that you were looking at?

20 Perhaps you can have it. Have you got your summary

21 before you? It was there. There it is. Paragraph

22 nine.

23 You say this, "Mr. Kordic was not a military

24 person. In spite of him not being in the military, he

25 did play an important role during the first period of

Page 21720

1 organising and creating the HVO formations in the

2 area. He also played a prominent part in the blockade

3 of several JNA arms of convoys that were passing

4 through the territory of Busovaca at the end of 1991

5 and 1992. We were aware that Mr. Kordic had neither

6 led nor commanded HVO forces in Busovaca. I know this

7 from my personal experience because I was a soldier."

8 Now your summary seeks, does it not, to

9 justify the grant of this award entirely on the basis

10 of what Mr. Kordic did in 1991 and 1992? I'm correct

11 on that, aren't I?

12 A. Well, no. I explained this. For example,

13 when the Croats of Travnik were expelled together with

14 their families and earlier on when they came from

15 Jajce, when they were expelled by the JNA, by the Serb

16 army, many of these expelled soldiers and civilians

17 came to Busovaca. This guidance that was given to

18 people to stay there in that area, also these people

19 from Zenica too, that was important for me because

20 everybody had wanted to leave. That was important for

21 me.

22 People were given this guidance to stay on

23 when things were the most difficult for them, when they

24 remained without anything.

25 Q. Mr. Marusic, you've got an important job and

Page 21721

1 you are an educated man. Please try and follow the

2 question. Your summary seeks to justify the grant of

3 this award entirely upon the basis of what Mr. Kordic

4 did in 1991 and 1992 and you will remember, I asked

5 you, when I related it to the question His Honour Judge

6 Bennouna asked you whether the summary was complete,

7 whether you'd been caused to think of anything else by

8 being taken through the recommendations and so on and

9 you said the summary was complete.

10 The summary seeks to justify the award on the

11 basis of 1991 and 1992 and no further. Am I not

12 correct?

13 A. I said that we had two critical periods

14 there. One with the JNA army, and the other one was

15 the conflict, the aggression of the Muslim army and

16 this period was also important. It was important to

17 have people remain in that area.

18 As I said, every day, people were getting

19 killed. Less and less people wished to stay so this

20 moral leadership that we got from Mr. Kordic in terms

21 of staying on, this meant giving guidance to civilians

22 and the military, but this was only moral support and

23 moral guidance. It meant a great deal to us in the

24 army and to civilians, every address of that kind. But

25 all our orders were received from the military, so this

Page 21722

1 was not as if he were a commander.

2 Q. Well, I'm going to just come back to the

3 sentence on the recommendation and just draw to your

4 attention also paragraph 10 above which, perhaps, the

5 usher would be good to move just so that we can see 10

6 right the way down to 15.

7 Ten says, "Period for which the decoration is

8 proposed, 1991 to 1994." And the sentence that I've

9 just read you which leads into the sentence that His

10 Honour Judge Bennouna asked you about, is this: "For

11 his great success in leading and commanding the

12 Croatian Defence Council units during the Muslim

13 aggression against the Lasva Valley and the wider

14 region. During the bloodiest moments of the ordeal of

15 the Croats in Central Bosnia, he played a key role in

16 the battles and was a source of hope and faith in their

17 survival," and so on.

18 On the basis of intelligence coming to you,

19 Mr. Marusic, even if you weren't there yourself, you

20 were recording the fact that Kordic had acted as a

21 military leader and it is as simple as that; correct?

22 A. I already told you. Before, in order to fit

23 into this law on decorations, we had to use some

24 words. This had to be reworded. It was not that he

25 was a leader of the military as an outstanding

Page 21723

1 politician. He had these messages for civilians when

2 things were most difficult for the people of Zenica,

3 when they were coming all of them and when they all

4 wanted to leave, he talked to them, he provided them

5 with accommodation in the territory of Busovaca, he

6 gave them places to stay. They were not staying in big

7 sports halls or something, they were staying with

8 friends or relatives.

9 So that left a very favourable impression upon

10 all these people who were left without a thing.

11 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Marusic,

12 the functions you have just described to us, can they

13 there be exercised by Mr. Kordic without him being in

14 any kind of relationships with the military? Do you

15 mean to say that all these various functions of

16 resistance, because it is tantamount to that, isn't it,

17 that's what you're saying to us, whatever forms it may

18 have taken in a critical period, can all these

19 functions be exercised without there being a permanent

20 and direct relationship with whose trade it is to carry

21 out battles; in other words, with the military?

22 A. Well, for sure he had contacts in that

23 period, but all these other military orders were issued

24 by military personnel. It would be ridiculous if he

25 functioned apart from everyone else. He had

Page 21724

1 cooperation with everyone else, and they probably

2 agreed on what kind of messages he was supposed to

3 convey. And he conveyed messages to civilians which

4 left quite an impact on all of us, including us in the

5 military, but we received our orders in the military.

6 So, yes, there must have been some kind of

7 connection because nobody was acting just on his own.

8 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Marusic,

9 could this be qualified as a coordinating function,

10 function as a coordinator?

11 A. Well, I don't know all these roles. I don't

12 know which words should be used for this, but he

13 functioned as a politician. I mean, he saw what the

14 situation was on the ground, and he addressed the

15 people.

16 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Just a

17 minute, please. The Tribunal is interested in your own

18 perspective and your own perception as a witness. Did

19 you perceive him to be a leader, a leader?

20 A. During wartime, I had practically never seen

21 Mr. Kordic live. I only heard messages. I saw him as

22 a moral leader, a moral leader. I mean, how we could

23 stay on the front line. I already said that I was

24 digging all the time, because we were supposed to be

25 entrenched there. That meant a turning point for me.

Page 21725

1 At the beginning of the war, we were not entrenched in

2 the field at all and we had lots of casualties, but

3 this was this turning point for us and for the military

4 and --

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt you. You

6 mentioned this digging on several occasions, and with

7 respect, it doesn't help us. What I want to ask you is

8 this: When you sent this form in, you were trying to

9 be honest, I take it. Would that be right?

10 A. Yes. At that time I tried, and there was a

11 recommendation as far as this writing was concerned, to

12 give words of praise and that all of this had to be put

13 into a framework that would mean being an entity, and

14 also to give words of praise. This is what would be

15 read if a person were to be actually given a

16 decoration. I tried to choose all these words and that

17 finally if this person were to give -- to be given a

18 decoration, I wouldn't want anyone to laugh when this

19 would be read out, why this person got a decoration.

20 JUDGE MAY: You wouldn't want to mislead

21 either those responsible for awarding the decoration or

22 the general public, would you?

23 A. I would not. I would not. I mean, simply

24 among the people, there was such high regard for

25 Dario. His messages were such that in the case of

Page 21726

1 these words that I chose then, they would simply accept

2 them. Nobody would be misled. Because especially

3 people like I, at the time, and now also, these

4 words -- some of these words -- well, we did not

5 interpret them that way, the way this Court does, in

6 detail.

7 JUDGE MAY: Help us with this: Why did you

8 not simply say that he was an inspiring leader who made

9 speeches to the population and kept their morale up in

10 difficult times? Why not, if that were the truth, why

11 did you not say it?

12 A. Well, that was a short explanation, but this

13 text was supposed to have a certain length and also to

14 consist of certain words. Such a high decoration

15 cannot be explained somehow only with one sentence.

16 JUDGE MAY: Very well. It's now nearly

17 11.00. Are you going to be very much longer,

18 Mr. Nice?

19 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I was coming rapidly

20 to the end of all I wanted to ask him, but we were only

21 expecting this witness on Thursday or Friday and I've

22 got, I gather, something to consider about his

23 testimony, which I can deal with over the break. So if

24 I could just have an opportunity to round off after the

25 break, I would be grateful.

Page 21727

1 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll adjourn. I

2 understand that there's no other witness here. Is that

3 right, Mr. Sayers?

4 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Mr. President.

5 Mr. Gerritsen didn't come in until about 5.00, 5.30

6 last night, and he's still looking over his statement,

7 or his outline, and making amendments to it, and we

8 expect to have him here tomorrow. Actually, he's not

9 scheduled to be back in our office until 3.00 today.

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll lose some time, but

11 we are not sitting beyond the lunch adjournment today

12 in any event. You can conclude him tomorrow, I take

13 it.

14 MR. SAYERS: Yes, Your Honour.

15 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Well, it may be

16 convenient, in the time that we have available, to deal

17 with the affidavits. I notice there are five

18 outstanding.

19 MR. NICE: We are prepared for that and we've

20 got our usual schedule ready.

21 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll adjourn now.

22 Mr. Marusic, we're going to adjourn for half

23 an hour. During the adjournment, please don't speak to

24 anybody about your evidence until it's over, don't let

25 anybody speak to you about it, and that does include

Page 21728

1 members of the Defence team. Be back at 11.30.

2 --- Recess taken at 11.00 a.m.

3 --- On resuming at 11.36 a.m.

4 MR. NICE: Just a few more questions, Your

5 Honour.

6 Q. Mr. Marusic, a change of topic just briefly.

7 Are you still the head of the Busovaca Police Station?

8 A. Yes. Police administration.

9 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Mr. Nice,

10 before you completely change the subject, I should like

11 to ask a question about the document which is still on

12 the ELMO, and I should like to ask a question of

13 Mr. Marusic.

14 That is: Witness, was Mr. Kordic aware of

15 the content of this proposal or did he know of the

16 proposal itself, that he was being nominated for a

17 decoration?

18 A. I do not think he knew about the content, as

19 far as I know; the content, the subject of the

20 proposal.

21 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Does that

22 mean that he knew about the proposal?

23 A. Possibly later on, since every information

24 spreads around, he may have learned of the proposal.

25 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] But this

Page 21729

1 text wasn't shown him previously?

2 A. No.

3 JUDGE BENNOUNA: [Interpretation] Thank you.


5 Q. To follow on His Honour's question, before I

6 turn to the other topic: At the time that this

7 recommendation was made, Kordic was already indicted to

8 come to this Tribunal, wasn't he, and Busovaca must

9 have known about that?

10 A. I don't know exactly at that time the date of

11 the indictment and all the rest.

12 Q. Are you saying you, as a Busovaca resident

13 and, at that time, head of the defence office, weren't

14 aware that the man for whom you were making this

15 recommendation was actually already charged with war

16 crimes?

17 A. Well, not quite. I wasn't quite aware of

18 that.

19 Q. Just a teeny bit aware, were you?

20 A. Why, no. Bosniak media, the Muslim ones,

21 wrote about that, as if they were guilty. That is how

22 I know about that.

23 Q. You see, once indicted, is the position this,

24 that Mr. Kordic wasn't in Busovaca but was being

25 protected in Croatia, to your knowledge? Is that the

Page 21730

1 reality?

2 A. Well, I used to see Mr. Kordic in Mostar

3 during my studies there, and I don't really know where

4 he was at all times during that period of time.

5 Q. You didn't see him, did you, in Busovaca,

6 after the time when you made this recommendation and

7 indeed, perhaps until the time when you saw him here in

8 Court. Did you see him between those two times?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And may this be the position with which you

11 can help us that although the local department, your

12 office, made a recommendation for an award that

13 reflected the reality of what Mr. Kordic had done,

14 others judged it unwise to give him an award now that

15 he had been indicted. Isn't that the reality of what

16 happened?

17 A. I don't think that was it. That is, the text

18 was approved, I suppose, only on the basis of duties

19 one discharged. I suppose others knew exactly what

20 duties he discharged and so perhaps it was the text

21 itself which did not pass muster because there were

22 several levels of decision making, and I suppose these

23 awards were conferred upon other people for those

24 roles.

25 Q. Well, it's quite right, and the reference

Page 21731

1 number is 1476.2, but I shan't take the Chamber to it,

2 it's quite right that President Tudjman signed off on a

3 large number of awards in respect of a large number of

4 Bosnians for their role in the war and approved their

5 awards; do you remember that?

6 A. Well, I do remember some decorations that

7 came to the office. I mean Bosnian, Croats from

8 Bosnia.

9 Q. But I'm suggesting to you, you know perfectly

10 well, perhaps, that it was wiser heads in Croatia that

11 decided it would be imprudent to go through with this

12 award for Mr. Kordic once he was indicted if he never

13 got the award. Do you think that's possible?

14 A. I don't think so. I do not think this

15 proposal ever left the Travnik defence administration,

16 or perhaps the military district of the time. That is

17 more likely because had Mr. Kordic had any military

18 role, somebody from the army must have -- would have

19 proposed him, because it was the army people who were

20 nominating their members for -- their people for

21 awards.

22 Q. You come here with neither a piece of paper

23 or a letter that deals with what I think you described

24 as the instructions that civilians should be given

25 awards, and you have no letter explaining how it was,

Page 21732

1 if it be the case, that this particular recommendation

2 wasn't taken further, do you? You don't have, as it

3 were, a letter, you don't produce a letter at the start

4 of or at the end of this exercise.

5 A. No, I don't. The instruction was only for

6 employees, because we asked for it to take an

7 initiative to award employees who worked in that

8 institution so that is what we had. This instruction

9 which the administration, the defence administration of

10 the civilian sector in Central Bosnia, and we were

11 to -- we were to be allotted eight decorations for

12 employees who were the civilian part of the

13 administration in Busovaca.

14 Q. You are a friend of Josip Grubesic's, aren't

15 you, Kordic's bodyguard?

16 A. Not a friend. He works for the police

17 administration. I mean, I did not even know him until

18 I came to the police administration.

19 Q. And the two of you got into some difficulties

20 with international police force recently, didn't you,

21 operating together in relation to some document matter,

22 but you got into difficulties together, IPTF, yes.

23 A. No, they were not difficulties, but we, in

24 police administration, have advisors from the

25 international police. And there was a case, if that is

Page 21733

1 it, the case because a female employee was dismissed by

2 the decision of the management board because the new

3 president of that cooperative asked for the

4 intervention of the police because that particular

5 female employee, the secretary, had taken away all the

6 documentation, all the money.

7 So that there was a conflict there, and we

8 were called in, that is, the police were called in, and

9 then Niko Grubesic and other policemen went to see what

10 it was all about, in order to verify the allegations.

11 And the advisor who looked at the complaint of the

12 respondent here says that we had done wrong and he

13 wrote an application, he wrote a report. But it was

14 rejected both by the headquarters of our IPTF in

15 Sarajevo and by our -- so it was the mistake of that

16 advisor.

17 He only received information of one party

18 without any proof from the other side and I -- from

19 the -- IPTF commissar, I received a reply that this

20 report was being rejected and that I had done right,

21 because that was not the case for the police and then

22 private charges were filed against that lady.

23 Q. I'm not in a position to deal with these

24 matters in detail. Are you still head of the police

25 office, the police station?

Page 21734

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Just back to the document then, because there

3 are only a couple more questions I needed to ask you,

4 if we look at it, perhaps the usher, if I could prevail

5 on him, could move it up so that the ELMO -- just a

6 little bit on this occasion, just to understand so we

7 can see the first box.

8 He's described as a brigadier because he was

9 a brigadier, correct?

10 A. Well, this is the general form and what to

11 fill in the particulars from the personal card and he

12 was awarded this rank of a brigadier like other

13 politicians. As I told you, these are his personal

14 data.

15 Q. Like which politicians, please?

16 A. Well, all those politicians at that time,

17 those who discharged various duties.

18 Q. Mr. Kostroman?

19 A. I mean politicians from Busovaca, I don't

20 know about others. I know about Busovaca politicians,

21 Zoran Maric, Niko Grubesic, so they were the ones,

22 those in Busovaca, and there are others who have those

23 ranks even if lower.

24 Q. All brigadiers?

25 A. No, lower ranks. I think Zoran Maric was a

Page 21735

1 colonel.

2 Q. And Grubesic, what rank was he given?

3 A. I think that of a captain, I'm not sure, but

4 I do know that he has a rank, and I think he is a

5 captain.

6 Q. I will be corrected if I'm wrong, of course,

7 I think Mr. Maric may have told us that he was a

8 civilian throughout. Are you saying he had and used a

9 rank or are you just making it up? Which is it?

10 A. Well, a civilian, but he was -- I mean those

11 politicians and civilians who played important parts,

12 so this was the rank of reserve officers, was granted

13 to them, that is, those civilians and politicians who

14 had some merits, and he is a politician, and Zoran was

15 a politician then.

16 Q. Staying with the document just a couple more

17 boxes, for to you explain to us since you filled it

18 in. To the right of brigadier, "Branch Military

19 Occupational Speciality", what you wrote down was

20 "PJS/OVS", and the expansion of that is not known to

21 the translator so the original simply says PJS/OVS.

22 What does it mean, please?

23 A. This is the service of the army, so this is

24 infantry general, the simplest specialities depending on

25 the service of the branch of the army. That means that

Page 21736

1 he was trained for it.

2 Q. It also -- does it not fit, infantry, with

3 what you wrote in the box "Commanding Croatian Defence

4 Council units." Doesn't it fit?

5 A. No. I told you, I mean, he had -- in the

6 former JNA, he served in the infantry and it was under

7 that, he had no rank. But amongst the proposals, I

8 suppose, and when proposals were sent, one wrote in

9 what branch of the army one served with the former JNA

10 and it was for that particular branch, I mean. So that

11 was how the proposal was written for the rank.

12 Q. Mr. Marusic --

13 A. -- regarding the branch.

14 Q. Look at boxes 10 and 11, although there is a

15 slight inconsistency between the two in that one of

16 them speaks of 1991, look at box 11. The 8th of April,

17 1992, why did you choose that date?

18 A. Quite simply I had it on the -- in the books,

19 and I saw that he was -- that he moved on when

20 others -- when other people took up, assumed those

21 duties that that was the date.

22 Q. I'm sorry, I don't understand your answer.

23 Can you explain to me, please, why you chose the date

24 the 8th of April, 1992?

25 A. Well, because according to the books,

Page 21737

1 according to the records, another person assumed that

2 duty, head of the office, and he moved to another -- I

3 mean, that is, another person began to work there.

4 Q. Which office?

5 A. That is what I knew at the time. The office,

6 the defence office.

7 Q. On the 8th of April, 1992, just to remind

8 you, if you need it, the presidency of the HZ HB

9 established the HVO. Would you like to think again,

10 please, why you chose the date the 8th of April, 1992?

11 A. Well, I've said it. According to the office

12 records, another person began to discharge that duty,

13 and he moved away. That is, he left that office

14 simply, that duty.

15 Q. Just a one-word answer will do to this. Are

16 you really telling the Judges that that date has

17 absolutely nothing to do with the establishment of the

18 HVO and it's all a coincidence? Is that what you're

19 saying?

20 A. Well, to me, it was just a coincidence.

21 Q. You're not telling this Chamber the truth,

22 and I'm going to suggest to you that when you drew and

23 signed -- when you drafted and signed your summary

24 seeking to justify this award all on the basis of what

25 happened in 1991 and 1992, you were knowingly not

Page 21738

1 telling them the truth either. What do you say to

2 that?

3 A. Well, I here read this oath, that I would

4 speak the truth, and to the best of my recollection, it

5 was as I have told you.

6 MR. NICE: Thank you.

7 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Thank you,

8 Your Honours. Only a few questions.

9 Re-examined by Mr. Naumovski:

10 Q. A great deal was said about this proposal

11 which is before you, Mr. Marusic. Only a few brief

12 questions. Did you ever talk with Mr. Dario Kordic

13 before you wrote and signed this proposal?

14 A. No.

15 Q. Did you, before you wrote this proposal, talk

16 to any military person in Busovaca, such as Dusko

17 Grubesic, Jure Cavara, or perhaps any other military

18 from the Operative Zone, that is, subsequent military

19 district of Vitez?

20 A. No, I did not.

21 Q. Today you repeatedly said -- even when asked

22 by Their Honours, you explained that you were trying to

23 reword and fit your proposal into that legal text, that

24 is, the instructions that you had been given. Did I

25 understand you well?

Page 21739

1 A. Yes. It was difficult for this to be

2 acceptable. It had to be properly fashioned. It had

3 to be properly done.

4 Q. You already gave us your opinion about this.

5 And that proposal, if I understood you well, did not

6 pass muster at high levels, so either at the Travnik

7 defence administration or the Ministry of Defence of

8 the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna; is that so?

9 A. Yes. I think that it was at the level of the

10 military district where the administration's proposal

11 was to go. I mean, the command, where the army was,

12 perhaps at that level. But they perhaps stopped that

13 because he knew that he had not discharged the duties

14 and that other people had been awarded for those duties

15 as army members.

16 Q. Does that mean that you failed to properly

17 fit your proposal, to use your words, into the criteria

18 laid down?

19 A. Yes. Yes. What we wanted did not come

20 true. I think that perhaps this text should have had a

21 different content. Because it was presented here that

22 it was for these merits, for the doctrine and strategy,

23 but it was military officials who were awarded for

24 those merits.

25 Q. A few times you stressed this, but the core

Page 21740

1 of the matter, if you agree, is that the defence office

2 consisted of civilians and that they carried out

3 civilian duties; is that correct?

4 A. Yes. Civilians, civilian duties.

5 Q. And precisely because they carried out

6 civilian duties and they were engaged throughout the

7 war, they did not have any other possibility of getting

8 decorated; is that right?

9 A. Yes, precisely.

10 Q. The document that we introduced at the end,

11 that is, D283/1, it shows that this proposal was never

12 accepted at higher levels, which shows how well

13 justified your claim is that at a level higher than

14 yours, this proposal was halted because it did not meet

15 the criteria.

16 A. Precisely. It was halted because it was

17 decided at lower levels that this proposal should not

18 go any further up, and obviously somebody else got this

19 decoration. There were proposals that were sent for

20 other men who were members of the military, which means

21 that it is not true that somebody from Croatia decided

22 that it should not be given, possibly because of the

23 proceedings that were brought against him.

24 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Very well.

25 Thank you, Mr. Marusic.

Page 21741

1 Your Honours, I do wish to apologise to the

2 Court and to the Prosecutors for the mistake in the

3 translation that was due to technical reasons purely.

4 Mr. Marusic worked on the Croat original version of his

5 document and then there was this mistake in the

6 transcript. So we do apologise once again. Thank you.

7 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Mr. Marusic, that

8 concludes your evidence. Thank you for coming to the

9 International Tribunal to give it. You are free to

10 go.

11 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

12 [The witness withdrew]

13 JUDGE MAY: Yes. We'll deal with the

14 affidavits, the five which we have: a Mr. Jure

15 Pelivan, Perica Juric, Josip Goludza, Stanislav

16 Nussbaum, and Anto Jukic.

17 MR. NICE: Your Honour has our schedule, I

18 trust. I'm sorry if it hasn't been -- it can be dealt

19 with singly, of course, in the way that the Court

20 prefers. The Court may -- and of course the Court will

21 remember our general position of opposition, subject to

22 the approach we take. But the Court will see that the

23 first one, we invite the Court to say, should not be

24 given by affidavit. As to the second one, subject to a

25 particular point --

Page 21742

1 JUDGE MAY: Let's look at them point one by

2 one, if we may.

3 MR. NICE: Yes. The first one, the comment

4 on the right-hand column really says it all. This is

5 an affidavit so broad, covering areas frequently

6 without the basis of assertions and it's difficult to

7 find specific points in the live evidence which it

8 corroborates. A lot of it seems to be hearsay and

9 general opinion. If you look at what it is --

10 JUDGE MAY: Yes. I was going to say, is

11 there any particular matter which you would wish to

12 draw our attention to?

13 MR. NICE: No. But if Your Honour looks at

14 the very title of the witness, on item 1, and then

15 reminds yourself of the breadth and generality of his

16 evidence, the Court may decide it simply isn't evidence

17 that should come in by affidavit because it can't

18 really help. There are always problems of assessing

19 affidavit evidence in any event, but on a general

20 account like this, it's really hard to see how it fits

21 the Rules for affidavit, which the Defence say have to

22 be applied strictly, or how can it assist in any

23 event.

24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll have a look at

25 that.

Page 21743

1 [Trial Chamber deliberates]

2 JUDGE MAY: We think this affidavit is

3 broadly corroborative of evidence which we've heard,

4 and applying the Rules, which we have done, we can see

5 no reason not to admit it. So it will be admitted.

6 MR. NICE: The next one, we raise no special

7 points, subject to what we observe at point 4. There's

8 a suggestion that there's an incorporation of an

9 important bit of law, if it ever were incorporated, but

10 which -- we're unable to understand the alleged Geneva

11 Convention on human rights. I don't know what at all

12 is being referred to there. No doubt it will be relied

13 on as important by the Defence in due course, but we

14 can't conceivably understand it.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Sayers.

16 MR. SAYERS: The only point that was raised,

17 I think, by the Prosecution is the document that was

18 adopted by the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna, Your

19 Honour. It was actually signed by Perica Juric. It's

20 already been exhibited as document 183/1, tab 9, and

21 it's basically a document dated September 30th, 1993,

22 titled "A Declaration on the Adoption of Documents on

23 the Protection and Exercise of Human Freedoms and

24 Rights." And I'm sure the Court will have in mind that

25 the Owen-Stoltenberg Plan actually contained a list of

Page 21744

1 the international human rights instruments which were

2 to be incorporated by any republics that were to be

3 formed pursuant to that plan, and this document adopts

4 that in haec verba and in exactly the same order.

5 JUDGE MAY: We'll admit this.

6 MR. NICE: The next one, Goludza, would seek

7 to give evidence of representing the RBiH in economic

8 and trade matters, of the functioning of the office in

9 Zagreb as an office in exile, as a split of aid, and

10 all these matters, as we understand it, could have been

11 covered with live evidence, but have only been raised

12 in the affidavit of Pelivan so this would be, as it

13 were, a corroboration of affidavit by affidavit which

14 is plainly not envisaged and cannot be right.

15 MR. SAYERS: My recollection of the evidence,

16 Your Honour, is that Witness DJ and Zoran Perkovic both

17 gave evidence about the establishment of an agency of

18 the -- an office of the government of the Republic of

19 Bosnia-Herzegovina in Zagreb intended to insist in

20 humanitarian aid matters.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honour, just to reply on

22 that, maybe in short form, yes, but none of the detail,

23 so this is --

24 JUDGE MAY: It sounds as though it's a matter

25 of record rather than anything else. Is it really a

Page 21745

1 controversial matter?

2 MR. NICE: It may or may not be

3 controversial, probably isn't particularly

4 controversial, but whether it's going to assist the

5 Chamber by adding more paper in the form of affidavits

6 which is going to be difficult to evaluate for their

7 truth value when there is nothing of a like kind that

8 they support.

9 [Trial Chamber confers]

10 JUDGE MAY: Well, this may be of marginal

11 significance. It's certainly, as far as we can see,

12 not a controversial matter, his evidence, except

13 perhaps what he says about Mr. Kordic but, nonetheless,

14 that's not a matter which he needs to be cross-examined

15 on and, in fact, it hasn't been suggested that he would

16 be. And in those circumstances, we propose to admit

17 this.

18 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I quite understand.

19 We ought perhaps to make it clear, and I'm grateful to

20 Ms. Somers for reminding me that we, of course, don't

21 accept the particular terminology position "government

22 in exile" or anything like that. Stanislav Nussbaum

23 comes next, this is the personnel commission, a

24 decision signed by Jadranko Prlic never holding

25 meetings. What's being set out here on the right-hand

Page 21746

1 column, there's an excerpt from the LiveNote of Buntic

2 which is perhaps helpful in showing how limited is the

3 material that is now sought to support by this

4 affidavit evidence.

5 JUDGE MAY: I remember him saying that the

6 commission never met, I made a particular note of it.

7 MR. NICE: Yes. But if you look at what he

8 actually said, starting at the top of the page, I

9 suppose one could explain it for a long time, perhaps,

10 their Presidency and government often debated why this

11 person was appointed, why not that one, why two

12 individuals. So perhaps it occurred to somebody that a

13 personnel commission could be set up, then ought to

14 take care of an equitable number of heads of deputies

15 or whatever. I suppose that that was the purpose.

16 Then in the last answer, I don't really think I can

17 help you because it would probably require

18 regulations.

19 He plainly knew very little about it and if

20 we're now going to have a detailed affidavit trying to

21 explain the position for founding something for the

22 Defence argument, there are serious problems in the

23 evidential position that will confront the Chamber.

24 MR. SAYERS: To respond very briefly to that,

25 Mr. President, the Court can look at this affidavit for

Page 21747

1 itself and determine whether it's very detailed or

2 not. Basically Mr. Nussbaum says: These were the

3 members of the commission. The commission never met

4 from the time that the document was signed by Dr. Prlic

5 to the time I left for Rijeka and, to the best of my

6 knowledge, this commission took absolutely no action.

7 And that Mr. Kordic obviously took no role within the

8 committee, that was essentially nonexistent.

9 So I don't see how that can possibly be

10 described as detailed and it certainly is completely

11 corroborative of the very clear testimony that

12 Mr. Buntic gave on that subject.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Nice, it's not clear to

15 me what you are seeking, cross-examination or the

16 exclusion?

17 MR. NICE: The court will remember that our

18 attitude on affidavits is that --

19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for Mr. Nice,

20 please.

21 MR. NICE: Your Honour will recall our

22 attitude is formal objection to all affidavits because

23 they all raise matters that are in issue. I think

24 there may be one affidavit where we've specifically

25 said that nothing is at issue but only one, but

Page 21748

1 consistent with the Chamber's ruling where the

2 Chamber's considering affidavits, we then distinguish

3 between those where they draw your attention to

4 particular matters which might merit particular

5 argument and where we don't.

6 So far as this witness is considered, we are

7 not pressing you against admitting it but we are

8 drawing to your attention for the exercise of your

9 discretion the limited nature of detail in the evidence

10 already available and to contrast it with the affidavit

11 that would be forthcoming.

12 We aren't, ourselves, particularly

13 concerned. We don't press the point on this affidavit,

14 but that's not the end of the matter because it's the

15 discretion of the Trial Chamber and not of us. And

16 self-evidently, on one hand, we would rather everything

17 goes in by affidavit because it shortens the trial on

18 the other hand. We'd self-evidently like to

19 cross-examine everything that's in issue.

20 But essentially we are taking a neutral

21 position simply letting the Chamber decide for itself

22 once we've drawn to your attention points that may help

23 you in the exercise of your discretion.

24 JUDGE ROBINSON: Thank you.

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll admit this one. The final

Page 21749

1 one is (redacted)

2 MR. NICE: This is one again where we don't

3 raise any specific objections but the Chamber might,

4 with this witness, just like to have in mind that the

5 witness confirmed -- the witness being supported, Jure

6 Cavara, because we suspect he's quite strong in one's

7 memory from last week, and giving answers, I can

8 forecast, if we deal with these things in detail in

9 closing briefs, will be subject to the comments of the

10 complete improbability of much of what he was saying.

11 Now, it's true that the corroborative

12 material goes to a few topics and we can see them

13 listed on the right-hand side that the first topic he

14 deals with would appear to corroborate as with the

15 second about the date and as with, of course, number

16 five which is a common theme. But it may be with this,

17 just as an example, the Chamber's got to give some

18 consideration to the particular live witness because,

19 of course, if with this witness, as indeed with all of

20 them, if the witness is himself utterly rejected as

21 incredible or beyond acceptable limits of credibility,

22 why then is nothing that the affidavit will ever

23 corroborate. That's a general point.

24 [Trial Chamber confers]

25 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. We'll admit this.

Page 21750

1 That deals with the affidavits. The other

2 matter I wanted to raise was the issue of timing.

3 MR. NICE: Yes.

4 JUDGE MAY: And really I think it's

5 Mr. Mikulicic who I would be grateful if we could hear

6 from first.

7 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours,

8 I do not wish to repeat what my colleague, Mr. Kovacic,

9 said the other day concerning the problems encountered

10 by Mr. Cerkez's Defence. However, by way of

11 illustration, I can say that we are in a position now

12 to be looking at some 800 documents that had just

13 appeared before us during these past few days. They

14 are directly related to military matters in the crucial

15 period for Vitez and the area of Novi Travnik.

16 However, I'm saying this so that you would

17 understand the kind of problems that we are facing.

18 Nevertheless, in spite of this, we can confirm with

19 certainty that we shall present our evidence, our case,

20 within six to eight weeks. So if we were to start

21 presenting our case as was recently mentioned, on the

22 24th of July, then we would have two weeks prior to the

23 summer break, and after that, six weeks at the most, in

24 the autumn.

25 Therefore, I can confirm with certainty, I

Page 21751

1 believe, that Mr. Cerkez's Defence would conclude its

2 case by the 20th of October, as you had said yesterday

3 that that was your plan. However, in this respect, I

4 do wish to say that I kindly ask for some flexibility

5 in terms of the presentation of our case.

6 It may happen that some witnesses may appear

7 all of a sudden. We gave a list which was based on the

8 knowledge we had then. However, there may be some

9 changes which, at any rate, will not be of major

10 significance. Therefore, I can confirm that by the

11 date you mentioned yesterday, we will certainly have

12 completed our case.

13 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mikulicic, I thank you.

14 Two matters, really. The first is that at

15 some stage we must schedule a pre-defence conference

16 for Mr. Cerkez's case. We'll have to fix a date during

17 the next two weeks or so, I would anticipate. So

18 perhaps you might like to have that in mind.

19 The second matter is the dates you've given.

20 In fact, I now find that the 20th, by the 20th of

21 October, you will have actually had seven weeks in the

22 autumn, if my mathematics is right. That would give

23 you a total of nine weeks. Do you think you might

24 finish more quickly or can't you say at the moment?

25 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] With all due

Page 21752

1 respect, Your Honour, at this point in time I could not

2 commit myself. However, there is a high degree of

3 probability that we might finish sooner, one week

4 sooner at least.

5 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.

6 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] As regards

7 your suggestion concerning the date for a pre-defence

8 conference, I am available and we shall certainly do

9 our best to meet your request in this respect; that is

10 to say, we expect you to set a date and we shall

11 certainly comply.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes, unless there's anything else

13 you'd like to raise, Mr. Mikulicic, while you're --

14 perhaps while you're on your feet, the other point I

15 wanted to raise with you was the question of rebuttal

16 and rejoinder. Again, that may be primarily a matter

17 for the Prosecution.

18 Perhaps I better turn to Mr. Nice.

19 MR. NICE: As I follow what Your Honour said

20 yesterday, the plan is that rebuttal should start on

21 the 4th of December and last with rejoinder for a

22 maximum of two weeks. Just dealing with that as a

23 proposition, that would mean that if the expectation is

24 that closing briefs and closing argument is to be

25 presented by Christmas, we are on a very tight

Page 21753

1 timetable if not an impossible one, because that only

2 leaves, after the end of the second week, I should

3 think at the most two or three working days.

4 JUDGE MAY: I mean the suggestion is that --

5 the suggestion is the -- the proposal is that two weeks

6 for all the concluding matters.

7 MR. NICE: I see.

8 JUDGE MAY: So that would be any evidence,

9 and any submissions. Post-trial briefs, whatever the

10 term used is, or concluding briefs, would have to be

11 prepared in the break before then.

12 MR. NICE: Of course there's no problem with

13 preparing closing briefs in the break and their being

14 exchanged either ahead of the rebuttal case contingent

15 on further evidence or indeed by amendment of almost

16 concluded drafts the second or almost the second

17 evidence concludes.

18 So there's no particular problem there even

19 though the requirement or necessity for say a minimum

20 of a day for oral argument reduces still further the

21 time available for rebuttal or rejoinder evidence.

22 I simply cannot forecast what rebuttal

23 evidence, if any, I shall seek to put in, but I think

24 it's inevitable in light of two things, that there will

25 be some. First, well-known, the production of

Page 21754

1 documents elsewhere. Second, there have been several

2 occasions throughout the case when really, by

3 discussion and agreement, topics have been touched upon

4 where the Court has said to us well, perhaps if that

5 comes in at all, it will come in by rebuttal.

6 And we've accepted that as a general

7 indication and not pursued matters further. So there

8 are some topics that I think are likely to be by

9 rebuttal and my concern, as I've explained on several

10 occasions, is that what's happening in Zagreb may, and

11 I say "may" involve quite a lot of evidence. And I

12 would inquire whether there is any chance of the 4th of

13 December date being advanced by a week or so,

14 particularly in light of what Mr. Mikulicic has said

15 about the certainty that they will finish by the 20th

16 of October and the possibility that they will finish

17 earlier.

18 JUDGE MAY: The difficulty about that is the

19 scheduling of the other case.

20 MR. NICE: I quite understand.

21 JUDGE MAY: Which may get more complicated

22 and not easier.

23 [Trial Chamber confers]

24 JUDGE MAY: Well, we'll have these matters in

25 mind.

Page 21755

1 MR. NICE: Yes. I should perhaps mention one

2 other point that's occurred to us, and I should inform

3 you of it. Depending on the decision of the Appeals

4 Chamber in relation to affidavit evidence, and assuming

5 that the decisions are before December, then it may be

6 possible for some of our rebuttal case to be dealt with

7 by affidavit. Alternatively, it may not. If there has

8 to be strict compliance with a particular regime and we

9 can't fit into that regime, why then we won't be able

10 to offer material by affidavit. But alternatively, we

11 may be able to do so. We have in mind that as our

12 general preparation. But I would urge the Court to

13 say, realistically, that it will be quite a squeeze to

14 get everything in that last fortnight and to be away

15 for Christmas.

16 MR. SAYERS: If I might, Mr. President, just

17 a couple of observations. We would greatly appreciate

18 the courtesy of a little advanced notice with respect

19 to the Prosecution's closing brief just so that we can

20 respond in an appropriate way. I'm sure the Court

21 knows that -- I can't see from the LiveNote right now,

22 but I think we're up to about 22.000 pages in the trial

23 transcript. There are thousands and thousands of

24 exhibits. The summarisation obligations are going to

25 be substantial in any event, and that, of course, will

Page 21756

1 be compounded by any rebuttal evidence that has to be

2 evaluated. I have not, frankly, given much thought to

3 how we would propose to address that. Perhaps by way

4 of a supplement to the brief, something like that. But

5 I'm sure that the Court --

6 JUDGE MAY: Or indeed orally.

7 MR. SAYERS: Or orally, depending upon the

8 magnitude of the case. Obviously, if we're talking

9 about, you know, another thousand documents, I'm not

10 sure that's really feasible to handle orally. But

11 obviously, however the Court wants to do it, we'll do

12 our best to comply. But I'm sure the Court doesn't

13 need to be told from us, there are logistical problems

14 that the lawyers face, and ultimately, of course, our

15 job is to try to help the Trial Chamber with our view

16 of the case. And it doesn't make any sense, to my

17 mind, to work very hard on preparing a brief which has

18 to be squeezed into the last minute and suffers in

19 terms of completeness and flow as a result.

20 [Trial Chamber confers]

21 MR. NICE: On that topic, if I could be heard

22 for just a minute, there are really two issues there.

23 As to exchange of closing briefs, I think the practice

24 of this place, and the understandable practice, is

25 mutual exchange followed by oral argument that can then

Page 21757

1 deal with issues that need to be dealt with because

2 they haven't been covered in closing briefs, and we

3 would press most strongly that that is the entirely

4 appropriate course.

5 As to rebuttal evidence, of course I'll give

6 every advance notice of rebuttal evidence that I can.

7 I've already, I think, served one letter on the Defence

8 indicating one witness who we may intend to call by way

9 of rebuttal. And they can be quite confident that in

10 accordance with my usually policy, as soon as I know

11 what I'm intending to do in that area, I'll let them

12 and the Court know for planning purposes.

13 JUDGE ROBINSON: It's mutual exchange rather

14 than one responding to the other.

15 MR. NICE: Yes, Your Honour.

16 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think there's some merit

17 in that.

18 MR. NICE: We will do all we can to provide

19 other material in advance, and of course if at this

20 stage of the trial it's possible to deal with more

21 matters by way of agreement and admission, then we can

22 save quite a lot of time, but we'd have to wait and

23 see.

24 The documents coming from Zagreb, as far as I

25 know it, and from the way that were described by

Page 21758

1 Mr. Kovacic, I think, last week, documents are being

2 provided, in accordance with certain regimes, to all

3 parties at the same time, or effectively at the same

4 time, so that should, at least as to those documents

5 that are being provided in that way, reduce the

6 requirement for time to consider.

7 JUDGE MAY: If there's nothing else, we'll

8 adjourn until tomorrow. We'll let you have the

9 calendar as soon as we can.

10 Perhaps the senior legal officer could have a

11 word with us.

12 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned

13 at 12.36 p.m., to be reconvened on

14 Thursday, the 29th day of June, 2000,

15 at 9.30 a.m.