1 Monday, 17 July 2000
2 [Closed session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
13 pages 22744-22834 redacted – closed session
23 [Open session]
24 [Trial Chamber confers]
25 JUDGE MAY: As far as the affidavits are concerned, you filed
1 another four, I think, today, two dealing with character; is that right?
2 MR. SAYERS: Two deal with character, two deal with an issue as to
3 which we can call a witness, if it's necessary. It's the absence of any
4 familial relationship either by consanguinity or marriage between the
5 Boban family and the Kordic family.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
7 MR. SAYERS: I wouldn't have thought that's controversial but if
8 it is, we can call a live witness.
9 JUDGE MAY: I doubt it. Now, the other issue then is the
10 exhibits. You were going to produce a guide for us through them.
11 MR. SAYERS: Yes, we have done that. I've already distributed a
12 copy to your legal officer, but we have some extra copies here. The
13 only -- the principal difficulty we faced, Mr. President, is we are not
14 permitted to pre-assign exhibit numbers to our exhibits, so what we tried
15 to do was to put -- to organise each of the exhibits into separate subject
16 matter areas and put those in a separate binder so that it will be easier
17 for the Court to follow, and we've made a list of the outstanding binders,
18 so that the Court can follow them and that's ready for distribution.
19 In addition, we have, as I told the Court we would, we have
20 prepared an index to all of the exhibits that we have offered into
21 evidence so far and that's ready for distribution as well. Finally, there
22 were some videotape exhibits that we have prepared and we have prepared an
23 index for them as well. Thank you.
24 I might also alert the Trial Chamber that only last weekend we
25 received another significant package of documents from UNPROFOR. We've
1 been through those. We're aware that the Court is awash in paper and we
2 have selected, I think, four separate documents from a pile that's about a
3 foot high that we would propose to include, and we'll submit a separate
4 volume of those tomorrow. It will be adjuncts to those in our outstanding
5 list of UNPROFOR documents.
6 JUDGE MAY: I seem to remember that Mr. Nice was asking us not to
7 deal with admissibility issues in his absence, but we'll see what we can
8 deal with and consider the position generally for the Prosecution. Is
9 there anything else you want to add?
10 MR. SAYERS: No.
11 JUDGE MAY: How long do you anticipate that the final witness will
13 MR. SAYERS: We met him on Friday. He is out of pocket today on a
14 commercial deal. He's currently in private business. I would not think,
15 from looking at the matters that we discussed in the contours of his
16 testimony, that he would be more than one hour on direct examination, Your
17 Honour. Thank you.
18 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Scott, are you going to deal with matters?
19 MR. SCOTT: Yes, Your Honour.
20 JUDGE MAY: The exhibits, the affidavits, and the transcripts.
21 MR. SCOTT: May it please the Court.
22 Your Honour, we are a bit surprised by this. We had understood
23 that this would not be taken up until later in the week and, as you know,
24 as the Court has already indicated, Mr. Nice isn't here and will not be
25 returning to The Hague until ...
1 THE INTERPRETER: Will Mr. Scott slow down, please.
2 MR. SCOTT: [previous translation continues] ... very long over the
3 weekend on other matters including now apparently witnesses who have been
5 THE INTERPRETER: Could Mr. Scott slow down, please.
6 MR. SCOTT: [previous translation continued] ... in fact, Your
7 Honour, we are not in a position to -- -- I would not be completely
8 accurate if I said to the Court we haven't been working on these issues to
9 some extent but they are in progress. We are not an a point where we
10 would be prepared to discuss them in any great detail because we simply
11 have not finalised our review of these matters.
12 The -- just handed out unless -- perhaps Mr. Sayers can tell us
13 where we can find this guide on exhibits, we don't seem to -- I'm not sure
14 we have that. It was just handed out a few minutes ago. Some of these
15 documents, Your Honour, again we have not even seen yet. The UNPROFOR
16 documents, I think there were two additional binders that were delivered
17 on Friday afternoon. Again, Your Honour, we just simply have not had time
18 to digest these items. The exhibits in particular, I think, are quite
19 long to deal with.
20 THE INTERPRETER: Could the counsel slow down, please.
21 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Scott, you are being asked by the
22 interpreters to slow down.
23 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry, Your Honour. Thank you. That would be our
24 position, Your Honour. We just simply feel that we are not able to
25 respond today. We had anticipated that the witnesses would take us
1 through Wednesday or Thursday and had prepared our schedule accordingly.
2 JUDGE MAY: Well, it means that the Court will not be occupied
4 MR. SCOTT: I understand that, Your Honour. I can only say
5 that's, of course, not at the Prosecutor's feet. I mean we thought we'd
6 be calling two witnesses, two witnesses now being cancelled by the
7 defence. So we can't -- all I can say, Your Honour, is we can't control
8 that. They were not our witnesses that were cancelled.
9 JUDGE MAY: Well, if the matter is not dealt with until the end of
10 the week, Thursday would be available, clearly, providing you can contain
11 the cross-examination of the witness within the morning because we are
12 only sitting on Wednesday morning in this case. We are sitting on other
13 matters in the afternoon.
14 MR. SCOTT: We'll certainly -- that's what we have been
15 anticipating, Your Honour, again depending how long the witness goes. The
16 defence says one hour. I find that a bit surprising but it's possible.
17 But this is a high-level figure who was involved in, again, a large
18 volume, a number of issues. So it surprises me some to think that he can
19 be handled with such dispatch, but I suppose it's possible.
20 Your Honour, we would -- while we're on the subject of that
21 particular witness, if I can say, Your Honour, we would also be surprised
22 and would be curious to know the reasons why he would need to appear in
23 closed session. It's not readily apparent to me why -- to us why that
24 would be the case. We would also ask to receive his outline so that we
25 can facilitate going through him as quickly as possible. So far, of
1 course, we have not received anything on that, Your Honour. So that's
2 where we are at the moment.
3 JUDGE MAY: But one way or another, whichever course we choose to
4 take, or decide to take, this matter must clearly be finished by lunchtime
5 on Friday, and that concludes all the arguments about admissibility.
6 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, I think that, as to the issues, as to the
7 exhibits, the affidavits and transcripts, once we can focus our final
8 position, I don't think that will take long. It's not a question of the
9 length of stating our position; it's just in simply coming to having the
10 further opportunity, as we thought we would, to finalise our position.
11 But in actually stating it to the Court, I don't see any reason why that
12 should take a long period of time. I mean, preliminarily I anticipate
13 that as to the transcripts, some of them may not be -- will probably not
14 be contested and some will. But I'm not sure that the -- sorry. I'm
15 being told -- I seem to be picking up speed again. I don't anticipate,
16 Your Honour, that our position would take long to state.
17 JUDGE MAY: It may be helpful, certainly in respect of the
18 transcript witnesses, if we can have something in writing.
19 MR. SCOTT: We can do that, Your Honour. Perhaps I can
20 anticipate -- perhaps I can extend this possible way forward: We may not
21 be able to resolve and come to a conclusion, to our conclusion, on all
22 these issues by Wednesday, but it may be that, at least on some pieces,
23 such as the transcript, one may lend itself to a quicker response. I can
24 tell the Court that we will give the Court our position at the earliest
1 JUDGE MAY: We shall want to know what it is by Thursday morning.
2 MR. SCOTT: At the latest, Your Honour.
3 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
4 [Trial Chamber confers]
5 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We shan't -- we will not sit tomorrow, in
6 order that these matters can be dealt with. We shall anticipate hearing
7 the witness on Wednesday and hearing the argument on Thursday, and if at
8 all possible, the parties should have in mind to finish everything by
9 Thursday evening.
10 Mr. Kovacic, we have now your list of witnesses. You'll be ready
11 to start on the 24th?
12 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, sir. We will be ready to start on 24, as you
13 requested us earlier.
14 JUDGE MAY: And you will provide the Prosecution with the outlines
15 of the first witnesses?
16 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, sir. If I only may -- I'm sorry.
17 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
18 MR. KOVACIC: If I only may ask for flexibility on our final list
19 of the witnesses to be filed only after we survive those two weeks. I'm
20 using the term since we are -- and I believe you appreciate that, that we
21 are starting with our case about seven weeks before originally scheduled.
22 And it is not only that, but also the other reasons which I mentioned,
23 primarily the documents coming out from various offices in Republic of
24 Croatia. And it is a problem, particularly -- not only for analysing and
25 classifying those documents, but also translation. And it does pose a
1 problem, as, for example, I'm seeing some of those documents to be used
2 with the couple of first witnesses and I'm not sure whether we will
3 receive until then the translations.
4 So I'm only trying to point out that we will ask the Court for a
5 certain amount of flexibility, and during the summer recess we will try to
6 recuperate. We will ask the Court registry for more assistance in
7 translation. We are discussing the matter of translation with the
8 Prosecutor's office. There is agreement reached that the party who will
9 obtain the translation first will exchange with the other party, and we
10 will also try to compare the listings of the document obtained in Zagreb,
11 because it is somehow a strange situation. We are having kind of a
12 running discovery parallel in the same time with presentation of the
13 case. So at least we are trying to compare whether we are having the same
14 documents, because we were told in Zagreb by the government officials that
15 we are receiving reciprocally the copies, and that seems to be the case,
16 at least up to certain moment in that process, but it seems that it is not
17 the case anymore, because it seems there is confusion, if I may say so, in
18 a technical sense. But I guess that during the time we will know exactly
19 whether the parties are given the same documents.
20 Anyway, we are ready to cover those two weeks so that the Court
21 will not waste time, and then to recuperate with all the listings of the
22 witnesses and the documents as well during the recess, and then to
23 continue in some more ordinary fashion in September.
24 JUDGE BENNOUNA: You are speaking of the summer recess? You think
25 that there is a summer here in The Hague? Or elsewhere, perhaps, you will
2 MR. KOVACIC: It should be elsewhere. Thank you.
3 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
4 MR. SCOTT: Sorry, Your Honour. Excuse me for a moment. Just on
5 the Cerkez defence, I just need to note very quickly. Unfortunately, Your
6 Honour, unless we've looked at the wrong list, five of the nine witnesses
7 listed by the Cerkez Defence for the first two weeks do not appear to be
8 on the 22nd of May witness list. So five out of nine witnesses do not
9 appear to be listed, and accordingly, nor have we received even the short
10 summaries of these witnesses. So they are new names to us and without any
11 summaries. We ask no particular action on that, Your Honour, save this,
12 at this time, and that is: We would simply like to receive the outlines
13 and summaries even more so, for that reason, because these witnesses were
14 not listed.
15 JUDGE MAY: Well, Mr. Kovacic, no doubt you can cover that as
16 expeditiously as possible.
17 MR. KOVACIC: Of course, Your Honour. I'm planning, indeed, to do
18 that during tomorrow's day. And it is not five; it is only three, I
19 think, I've not covered by now. And those, I can assure, in advance to
20 everybody, are extremely small and short witnesses. The Prosecution
21 office will be able to read them and to analyse them in the matter of an
22 hour, and certainly there is no document to search about them. Thank you,
24 JUDGE MAY: Thank you. Wednesday morning, then, half past 9.00.
25 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.49 p.m.,
1 to be reconvened on Wednesday the 19th day of July,
2 2000, at 9.30 a.m.