Tribunal Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia

Page 24654

1 Wednesday, 13 September 2000

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Kovacic.

7 MR. KOVACIC: Thank you, Your Honour.

8 WITNESS: ANTO ZIRDUM [Resumed]

9 Examined by Mr. Kovacic: [Continued]

10 Q. [Interpretation] Good morning, Mr. Zirdum.

11 A. Good morning.

12 Q. Yesterday we adjourned when you were describing the situation in

13 the area of Gacice where you had been assigned. You told that you were

14 there until the end of the conflict and the function you had. You also

15 mentioned the fall of Bobasi after you arrived at the position; is that

16 correct?

17 A. It is.

18 Q. And just one more question about this. The BH army, did it win a

19 better strategic or a perhaps a tactical position after the fall of

20 Bobasi, after they came in the area? Better condition in terms of the

21 control of the town or rather the part of the valley, and better if they

22 wanted to cut the valley into two?

23 A. To my mind, they improved the position in that part very slightly,

24 but they came nearer the town and therefore began to present a greater

25 risk for the population in the centre of the town, that is the most

Page 24655

1 densely populated part of the town.

2 Q. Thank you. And while you worked as a journalist in 1992 and the

3 former half of 1993, and then as an IPD officer, you had access, at least

4 from time to time, to different types of information exchanged within the

5 HVO, didn't you?

6 A. I didn't have a direct access to information, but indirectly,

7 yes. Being a journalist, yes, I received various information or rather

8 in -- there were press conferences in other places where media were

9 involved. Yes, I would get in touch with the different sort of

10 information.

11 Q. And after you were assigned military tasks, that is, after you

12 were sent to the front line, you did not attend press conferences any

13 longer, did you?

14 A. No, I did not.

15 Q. And did you ever get any instruction or perhaps learn of an

16 instruction indicating that the objective of the HVO, or rather the Croat

17 Community of Herceg-Bosna, that is, the Croat Republic of Herceg-Bosna was

18 the secession from the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina?

19 A. No, I was never issued any instruction that might suggest

20 something that the army was to do. Soldiers, of course, needed to have

21 many things explained to them, including the objectives of our fight even

22 though it was quite evident that we are only fighting for defence. But

23 during periods of peace, people wanted to get a grasp of the whole

24 situation, of the situation as a whole, and they -- it had to be talked

25 about with them. But there was never any hint of such an instruction or

Page 24656

1 any sign whatsoever that secession was the objective, the goal of the HVO

2 struggle.

3 Q. Did you ever get or learn of any instruction supporting or

4 requesting ethnic cleansing, that is, persecution of other ethnic groups

5 or the evacuation from those areas?

6 A. At the time when I was the assistant for IPD, such things were

7 never the subject of any discussion, that is, it never occurred to anyone

8 to discuss possibly the expulsion or eviction of anyone or transfer of

9 anyone. All that we took was that the Croat people needed to define and

10 ensure an equitable position for themselves in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

11 Q. Thank you. Let us now cover two or three things that we mentioned

12 under miscellaneous, that is, item 4 in our summary. You did quite a

13 number of stories during the first part of your work that we talked about,

14 and you spoke to a great many people. Did you ever have a chance to talk

15 to people who had been released from their detention in the building of

16 the cinema?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. How many people did you approach, asking them to give you a

19 statement about it?

20 A. Well, they were coming out and signing some paper, and as they

21 were coming out, I asked them for an interview, each one of them. I know

22 that only a few refused to because they were simply reluctant to speak for

23 television; others were simply shy of it and did not feel at ease about

24 speaking for television. But all the others, yes, made a statement, gave

25 a statement to me.

Page 24657

1 Q. Could you in some way sum up their statements?

2 A. Well, I wanted to ask them how they had been treated there, and

3 they all said that they were treated decently. Others felt the need to

4 call upon the Croat people and the Muslim people and the armies of both

5 peoples to try to resolve political misunderstandings as soon as possible,

6 because they had brought about all that had happened. Many of them were

7 calling upon their friends, inviting their friends, telling them that

8 nothing could affect their friendship they had regardless of what had

9 happened, and so on and so forth.

10 Q. Let us now go back to something that you said in the beginning.

11 At that particular time, did you believe that people like you thought that

12 it was to be just a short-lived episode and that people would go on living

13 as they did before?

14 A. I do not know how many people believed that. But I do think that

15 the majority of people still thought that it was going to be just a brief

16 episode, that there was a minority of those who thought that it was a

17 conflict which had to go on. Most people still believed that, yes, it was

18 just a clash which could be resolved by political negotiation because,

19 after all, there were all sorts of negotiations going on. However, time

20 showed that negotiations were not enough to bring that to an end.

21 Q. You spoke about how internees were coming out of the cinema and

22 that they were signing some paper. Was the Red Cross, the International

23 Red Cross, there?

24 A. I don't really remember, but I think they were there or around,

25 because they had already arrived and they were somewhere there. I don't

Page 24658

1 know if one can see them on the tape, but they were in the area at the

2 time.

3 Q. In the contacts that you had, because you came to the office every

4 day -- to the building every day because that is where your office was,

5 did you know about what was going on in the building and the treatment of

6 those people? And did those statements tally with what you knew?

7 A. Well, I was in touch with those people every day, because there

8 were many of my friends there. So I saw them every day, brought them food

9 or a change of clothes, whatever they needed. I went to their families,

10 visited them, to let them know that everything was all right, not to

11 worry, and so on and so forth. I mean, I was in touch with them all the

12 time. There were no incidents at all -- rather, there was one incident

13 when two internees began to argue, had an argument between them and got

14 to, I think, fisticuffs. But then somebody separated them.

15 Q. But apart from that one incident, you don't know of any other?

16 A. No, I did not see any other incident, nor did I hear about any,

17 because had there been any, I would have known about it.

18 Q. Did that place look like a camp, or did it have a different

19 aspect? How would you describe it, in view of its various features, the

20 regime that existed there?

21 A. Well, when one uses the word "camp," I mean, it sounds horrible.

22 But it did not look like a camp at all. There were no wires or any strict

23 regime or any inadequate regime that governed the place. The conditions

24 that existed there were really used to the maximum so that the interned

25 people could function there as much as they could.

Page 24659

1 I suppose for the first day or two, before I came there, it was

2 very bad there. But as I could realise how they were resolving matters in

3 those -- discussing the WC or other things, that is, certain facilities

4 were open, that people could go freely. I heard from a friend of mine

5 that just the first two days were hell because it was too hot and stuffy

6 and what not, but then everything was opened up, everything was solved,

7 that food had begun to arrive, and communication and contact with

8 families. Then it worked. There was a very liberal regime. We could all

9 go there and talk to our friends who were there, take cigarettes to them,

10 and such like.

11 Q. You mentioned, though, that the first two days were bad. Just a

12 moment. Bad because of the objective circumstances, the accommodation,

13 the limitations of the building, or what?

14 JUDGE MAY: I'm sorry. Let the witness give the evidence as to

15 why the conditions were bad in the first two days.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. So why were those first two days bad?

18 A. Because it was a very small area, that cellar, and there were just

19 too many people. And unless -- until people realised that it was

20 overcrowded and that there had to be some other solution. I wasn't there

21 during those first two days, but then on the staircase I saw a friend on

22 the staircase and he asked me to bring him a blanket. So I went to his

23 home, saw his family, said that he was all right but he needed a blanket.

24 That is, people simply were not prepared for that. They didn't know what

25 they might need there. But later on, as the time went by, people realised

Page 24660

1 what they needed and they were getting things then. The regime became

2 very liberal and quite normal; that is, the conditions that existed there

3 were really used in an optimal manner. Of course, the building is a far

4 cry from a camp.

5 Q. Tell us, please, Mr. Zirdum, could the internees receive visitors,

6 their friends or families who would bring them things?

7 A. Yes, yes. Wives came, brought food and gave them. On the

8 staircase, they would meet or in the doorway they would meet, give them

9 food. Or I went to their homes and would bring them too food or whatever,

10 I mean to those people that I knew, of course.

11 Q. And in those contacts that you mentioned, your contacts with some

12 internees, did you have to do it on the sly?

13 A. No, I moved around freely, and they also moved around freely in

14 some parts, that is, in the passages or WC. So we met freely. All the

15 doors were open and one could enter freely any of those rooms. And they

16 could move from one room to another, that is, they could walk around and

17 communicate quite freely, and of course, everybody had a space of his own,

18 some area of his own and I don't know what they did there. But at any

19 rate, people could move around, and even on radio and television, we had a

20 telephone and some came to call us, and then everybody would want to talk

21 to us and they would say, yes -- we would let them, but -- say yes, but do

22 it slowly. That is, people wanted to let-- needed to let their families,

23 their wives and children, to let them know that they were quite all right,

24 just to -- and I felt, I sensed, that that was a need that they had. So

25 regardless of what otherwise the rules might be, I just allowed people to

 

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Page 24662

1 come to the telephone and call the television.

2 Q. And just one more question about this. Did you see what was the

3 army, whose were the troops which guarded the entrance into the building

4 or around the building?

5 A. In the building, there were the military police, the lads with

6 white belts, and I didn't really know whose they were or what. But they

7 were always very correct. I would come in and go out, they never stopped

8 me. They were not disagreeable. It was quite an easygoing atmosphere. I

9 knew some of them. I didn't know some of them. I didn't know who they

10 belonged to. All I knew is that they were military police.

11 Q. Very well, thank you.

12 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honours, I would kindly ask for a private

13 session for a couple of questions where witness would not like to use a

14 name of his friend publicly.

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14 [Open session]

15 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session now.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. At that time, during the first days of the conflict, could you

18 please describe very briefly the situation in town. Was there order or

19 was there chaos? Could you say that very briefly?

20 A. Well, in the first days of the conflict, it's very hard to

21 describe the situation because throughout those three days, I was in the

22 basement, but it was terrible. There was a lot of shelling, and we

23 focused on putting our shelter in order because, in the meantime, sandbags

24 had arrived, and all the men from the building, Muslims and Croats as

25 well, went to put the sandbags against the windows. I heard that there

Page 24667

1 was chaos in town, that all sorts of things were going on, but I, in those

2 crucial and chaotic days, I did not see for myself what was going on.

3 Later on when I came to the television, I could see what the

4 situation was, but that was when the chaos was subsiding and things were

5 getting back to normal.

6 Q. During the war, at least while you were working on television, did

7 you have any problems in getting the materials you needed, for example,

8 spare parts for your equipment?

9 A. Well, the television was improvised as far as technology went. We

10 had very few resources. But there were younger people, students of

11 electronic engineering who were very bright, very capable, and they

12 managed to improvise. We had very few resources but we had very clever

13 people there who were able to assemble things. But there was always

14 something lacking. Later on, when the war really started, we could see

15 that we were short of tapes. Then we found that we should take care how

16 we were using our tapes.

17 And then later on, when I had already gone to the front line, I

18 heard that my colleagues were making use of bits of tapes which were still

19 empty tapes, re-using old tapes and so on. But when I went back to the

20 television, the situation was critical for another two months. We would

21 have one new tape, and we would use old ones, filming things over and over

22 the old ones. So there were some things I was unable to preserve for the

23 archives. When people came to ask me, I was very embarrassed, but we had

24 to hurry and sometimes we would destroy material.

25 Q. Just a few more questions about this. The archives of the video

Page 24668

1 materials that were broadcast, are they complete?

2 A. Well, as for the news reports, that's complete. It should not be

3 damaged or destroyed. But that applies only to the news broadcasts. As

4 for the rest of the archives, it was exposed to various kinds of damage,

5 because if someone found three minutes of empty tape, they would put it in

6 their camera and then they would do seven minutes, thereby destroying four

7 minutes of something that had been filmed before.

8 Q. Very well. I apologise for being too fast. Do you perhaps

9 remember in those first few days of the conflict -- I apologise. I have

10 to rephrase my question. Do you know Dr. Mujezinovic from Vitez?

11 A. I do know Dr. Mujezinovic, because almost everybody in Vitez knows

12 him.

13 Q. Do you perhaps remember, on the first days of the conflict he made

14 a statement on television personally?

15 A. Yes, I remember he did make a statement. As the only SDA

16 politician, he was available there. He had authority as a doctor among

17 all citizens, and he did make a statement on television.

18 Q. Can you remember roughly what sort of statement it was, what its

19 purpose was?

20 A. Well, at that time there were a lot of rumours going around, and

21 one of those rumours was that he had been killed or captured. So it was

22 necessary to draw people's attention to the fact that they should not

23 believe rumours easily without checking them. He denied the rumours that

24 he had been killed and we wanted to broadcast this, and then he took the

25 opportunity to call on citizens and politicians to be reasonable and to

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Page 24670

1 try to settle this situation.

2 Q. Did you notice, when was this statement broadcast, in what

3 programme? And was it always the same version that was broadcast?

4 A. Well, the night the statement was filmed, it was broadcast

5 immediately in its entirety. Perhaps later on, when it was rebroadcast,

6 perhaps in the news broadcast or somewhere else, we rebroadcast certain

7 things; also, on satellite television and HTV, the Croatian television.

8 Rather, we rebroadcast things from HTV and others, and so perhaps --

9 Q. Very well.

10 JUDGE MAY: Let's concentrate on what is important in this case,

11 and let us try and speed up. We've had another 40 minutes. I thought you

12 were going to be short this morning. Now, is there anything else?

13 MR. KOVACIC: Two short questions to close this subject, and then

14 I'm done.

15 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

16 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Did you conclude on the basis of anything at all or learn that

18 Dr. Mujezinovic made the statement under duress?

19 A. No, no. We communicated with him -- rather, the people who

20 communicated with him were his friends. He was a medical specialist. We

21 knew each other from before and we were friends.

22 MR. KOVACIC: I have no further questions, Your Honour. Thank

23 you. I'm sorry for being a little bit longer than predicted.

24 MR. SAYERS: No questions for Mr. Kordic, Your Honour.

25 MR. NICE: Can we deal with the private session passage

Page 24671

1 immediately and briefly, so that if we can have a quick private session.

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17 [Open session]

18 THE REGISTRAR: We're in open session.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. Why did the Croats of Vitez imprison their Muslim friends and

21 neighbours?

22 A. It's my opinion that that was a question of safety and security in

23 the town itself, that is to say, the safety of the units in town and the

24 safety of the people themselves who, in those chaotic days, were exposed

25 to the possibility of maltreatment, and their lives were perhaps at risk.

Page 24673

1 So for safety reasons.

2 Q. Well, the Croats did not need to be imprisoned, did they?

3 A. The Croats in town? Well, I don't know if they were imprisoned

4 then. Whether they had to or didn't have to, I really don't know. Other

5 people were there too --

6 Q. You've seen, as you tell us, one of the detention facilities of

7 the several that were in Vitez; it contained Muslims. Are you suggesting

8 that there was a place that had Croats detained? If so, identify the

9 place.

10 A. In town I don't think there were places like that --

11 Q. Thank you.

12 A. -- except perhaps in the Mahala, where the territory was

13 controlled by the forces of the BH army. Probably they were there, but I

14 don't know about that.

15 Q. You say "probably." I want your evidence, please. So the Croats

16 in Vitez did not need to be imprisoned for their safety. Let's return to

17 the Muslims. From what did they need to be protected, please?

18 A. Well, from this chaotic state of affairs. Because at the time in

19 town, refugees began to turn up, displaced persons, from the surroundings

20 of Vitez, and they weren't a controlled mass. They had left their place

21 of residence and come into town. This was a great mass of people. It was

22 difficult for the organs of law and authority to establish effective

23 control --

24 Q. Right.

25 A. -- and things to --

Page 24674

1 Q. The ethnic composition of the incoming refugees, what was it?

2 A. Croats from the surrounding villages, they would come into town.

3 That means that --

4 Q. Are you suggesting that the Muslims simply had to be imprisoned

5 because incoming Croats might attack them? Is that really your evidence?

6 A. Well, no, I wouldn't put it that way, I wouldn't formulate it that

7 way, although there is some logic in it. But that's not a very happy way

8 of putting it. The situation changed from minute to minute. It wasn't a

9 conclusion based on constant data or a well-organised and firmly

10 established fact. We had to adapt to the situation which changed daily.

11 And the people who were there to assess the situation probably assessed it

12 and concluded --

13 Q. Mr. Zirdum, please listen to the questions, take your time and try

14 and give a clear answer. Staying with the same topic, you were a

15 journalist, twice a television reporter, and you told us this yesterday -

16 I'll quote it here so that you can remember the passage - "Information

17 always finds a channel," that is, information always found a channel to

18 get to you. Who decided to imprison the Croats -- the Muslims in your

19 town?

20 A. I don't know that. I really don't. I really don't know who took

21 that decision, because that imprisonment began two days before I was

22 mobilised, before I left my basement.

23 Q. Now, how many days did you spend with these prisoners, going to

24 and from the places they were detained? How many days were you with them?

25 A. Some 15 days --

Page 24675

1 Q. Thank you.

2 A. -- I can't tell you exactly. About 15 days.

3 Q. Thank you. If you can't tell us who decided to imprison the

4 Muslims, can you tell us what the accepted reason given for their

5 imprisonment was?

6 A. Well, the accepted reason was to ensure law and order in town,

7 that is to say, to ensure that incidents would not take place and some

8 shooting from one building to another and the setting up of hundreds of

9 front lines and, of course, general safety of those people. So that was

10 the reason. This reason was announced to the people and, as far as I

11 know, the people accepted that reasoning and many people asked advice.

12 Q. Are you now saying that the Muslims were imprisoned because there

13 was fear that they might, themselves, fight or fight back; is that what

14 you're saying?

15 A. Yes. There was that fear. Before I tell you something else, may

16 I -- could we go back into private session because I would have to mention

17 a few names.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

19 A. By way of example there would be --

20 MR. NICE: Wait a minute.

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21 [Open session]

22 MR. NICE:

23 Q. So despite what you said earlier about being for their own

24 protection, the imprisonment of the Muslims was because the Croats were

25 concerned about what Muslim men might do; is that now your evidence?

Page 24677

1 A. It's difficult with that kind of formulation but, conditionally

2 speaking, the answer would be yes.

3 Q. Thank you. And the reason that the Croats of Vitez were concerned

4 about what the Muslims might do is because the Muslims might react to the

5 attack that was being mounted on them in Vitez and elsewhere by the

6 Croats. That's the reality, isn't it? It's very simple.

7 A. Well, you have simplified it, but that wasn't reality. That does

8 not reflect the reality. The reality was far more complex. Many Muslims

9 and many Croats did not have any idea that a conflict of that kind could

10 take place, although some people in their heads did have ideas of this

11 kind, and probably certain circles on both sides, I assume, did look into

12 those possibilities.

13 The very fact that my meeting, and I don't want to mention the

14 person that had bombs in my house whereas I didn't have any bombs, and

15 that there were these two Croats in my entrance, I don't know why that man

16 needed any bombs because we didn't need any weapons in town. The front

17 line should have been against the Chetniks.

18 Q. All right. You have described the events of the 15th, 16th, 17th

19 and so on as appearing like, "...just an incident, just a clash." Now,

20 Ahmici is five minutes down the road. What happened in Ahmici wasn't just

21 an incident and it wasn't just a clash, now, was it?

22 A. That's right. It was a crime that shocked everyone.

23 Q. Thank you. Now, information always found a way, a channel to

24 reach you, so can you tell us, please, who --

25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, I'm sorry, but if this question is

Page 24678

1 leading where I suppose it is leading, I will kindly ask for a private

2 session. That is what witness asked me earlier.

3 THE REGISTRAR: We're in private session.

4 MR. NICE: Very well.

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13 [Open session]

14 A. Yes, you may.

15 THE REGISTRAR: We are in open session.

16 MR. NICE:

17 Q. Were you aware of meetings on the night of the 15th of April where

18 Blaskic and others were present and they planned the attack on Ahmici?

19 Did you discover about those meetings?

20 A. I was not aware of the meeting.

21 Q. Very well.

22 A. Later on, I heard that there had been a session of the municipal

23 council.

24 Q. Which, you say "a session of the municipal council," would it be

25 right to say --

Page 24682

1 A. Municipal -- the HVO government, if you want me to be precise,

2 that's what I heard.

3 Q. Although -- did you also hear that that meeting was not attended

4 by the actual municipal presidents or indeed, I think, the head of the

5 defence department was attended by a selected number of people; did you

6 hear that?

7 A. No, no. All I heard was that there was a rather dramatic session

8 but I learned about that much later, perhaps even after the war.

9 Q. Did you learn that Dario Kordic was present at that meeting?

10 A. I should really like to -- I'd really love to know more about that

11 meeting because it must have been a very dramatic one --

12 Q. Did you know that Mr. Kordic was present at that meeting, please?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did you learn of any later applications made by citizens of Vitez

15 to Kordic following on that meeting?

16 A. What application? I don't understand.

17 Q. Did you learn that citizens of Vitez went and approached Kordic

18 later that same night, after the meeting, seeking a postponement of the

19 attack?

20 A. No, I am not aware of that. This is the first time I hear of it.

21 MR. NICE: That's all I'm going to ask on that.

22 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Nice, what is the material on which those

23 questions are placed? I don't remember the evidence on that.

24 MR. NICE: I'm asking the questions based on other material that

25 has come to hand. Let's just deal with a few matters of generality, and

Page 24683

1 then I think I don't have very much more to ask this witness.

2 Q. So far as television and radio is concerned - I'm not going to

3 take you wearisomely through the material - do you accept that the HZ HB,

4 Herceg-Bosna, regarded the dissemination of information through television

5 as really a State or a Herceg-Bosna business?

6 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I'm referring here to a report on the

7 HVO. It's Exhibit 511, and it's at page 15.

8 Q. Do you accept, then, that the HZ HB regarded the dissemination of

9 information through the television as partly its business?

10 A. Your wording, you have to know that I was in -- on two different

11 occasions, that is, mid-1992 and after the war of the 16th of April, the

12 situation was quite different in both those cases. In the beginning, it

13 was very vague. It was local. It was mixed with private business, and so

14 on. Later on it was a business which was also to serve the purpose of the

15 defence, that is, both information and the defence.

16 You know, it is very difficult to give a specific answer. It is

17 difficult to answer in the affirmative because there was one thing there

18 and another.

19 Q. Were you aware -- I know you'd gone back to your factory, you say,

20 but were you aware that in December of 1992, Exhibit 304 refers, there

21 were talks between Dario Kordic and others about finding the best way to

22 advance their position through radio stations? Are you aware of that?

23 A. No, no, I really am not aware of any detail dating to that time.

24 Q. But you would accept that by the time of your second involvement

25 in television, after the outbreak in April, what you were doing was in

Page 24684

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13 and English transcripts.

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15

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21

22

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24

25

Page 24685

1 reality the Croats' side of things, and you were working for a Croat

2 station; correct?

3 A. Basically. Basically, yes. Basically. But again, you must

4 distinguish it from the first few days when the situation was different

5 and when some modality was being sought to try to bring things to an end.

6 But as the things developed then --

7 Q. Very well. You were asked questions about your role as an IPD

8 officer. Only a couple of questions about that. Information and

9 propaganda was a very wide business in the HVO, wasn't it?

10 A. Well, it wasn't all that widespread, because I know all the people

11 who are involved there. And if at some point in time I had to do it - and

12 I was not an HDZ man and a man they particularly trusted, but I enjoyed

13 the trust of people in the field - it means that it wasn't all that

14 widespread.

15 Q. When you were dealing with it, was it propaganda that you were

16 dealing with?

17 A. I was dealing with information, and I was trying to sustain the

18 morale and discipline on the front lines so that our defence would manage,

19 so that those men would put up with these inhumane conditions to perform

20 the defence tasks in a disciplined manner. Because people were quite

21 tired and exhausted, and it had to be explained that we needed to defend

22 ourselves, that we had no other way out but to defend ourselves --

23 Q. Thank you.

24 A. -- and that was rather complicated.

25 Q. You were instructed by your superiors in the IPD chain to tell the

Page 24686

1 troops things that would encourage them; is that about right?

2 A. This is an inadequate term, "encouragement." That is an

3 inadequate term. It is a very complex stage. You can't really define it

4 by one word only.

5 Q. Your role as an IPD officer -- I think you can confirm that every

6 unit had an IPD officer, didn't it?

7 A. No, no. There was a system which changed as it developed. So

8 that in addition to my post as the assistant commander, from the new

9 commander who was appointed I was given a new task, because he thought

10 that it was how it should be organised, that there should be an IPD

11 assistant per sector, not per company.

12 Q. All right. I'll move on from that. As an IPD officer, you

13 weren't seeing orders from the generals and the colonels of a military

14 nature, were you?

15 A. Correct.

16 Q. From your position as an IPD officer, you weren't able to say

17 anything about the overall strategy or tactics of the war, because you

18 were simply there to encourage the troops at a local level; correct?

19 A. That is -- no, no, no, no, that's not how it was. In our chain of

20 command, we had our briefings with the brigade assistant for IPD; he would

21 transmit information to us. But I am a man from the media, and people in

22 the field thought that I knew how to follow up on information and that I

23 knew the extent of information they needed in the situation. Any wartime

24 situation, you know, when chaos sets in, when people want to be informed,

25 then simply people in the field, on the ground, trusted me.

Page 24687

1 Q. Is it right that --

2 A. Those --

3 Q. The television that you were operating for a time, or you were a

4 journalist for for a time, did that fall fairly and squarely within the

5 control of the IPD department?

6 A. That's yet another difficult question, but I'll do my best to

7 answer it. The head of the information centre was a gentleman called Anto

8 Marjanovic, and the IPD assistant of the brigade was Zvonimir Cilic. So

9 these are two different individuals. It is difficult to explain the

10 symbiosis there, but it functioned, conditionally speaking, independently

11 of the IPD office even though we did cooperate, which is only natural.

12 Q. Who was the politician to whom the military men were answerable in

13 Central Bosnia?

14 A. Well, you know, it's really difficult to answer because it's a

15 very complex situation. Troops account to their commanders in units, of

16 course, when everything is well organised, when everything is in working

17 order. In the political setting, well, it's an entire setting and I

18 explained it in my -- I explained that I joined the HVO when I realised

19 that it was not a party army but the regular army of the Croat people.

20 Even though there were some party armies, I always rejected that very

21 resolutely.

22 Q. I hoped I'd asked a simple question. You try and answer it, if

23 it's capable of being answered. Who was the politician to whom the

24 military men were answerable in Central Bosnia?

25 A. It is very difficult to answer that question, because military and

Page 24688

1 people are one and the same, and it is difficult to differentiate between

2 the army and the people. So you have to phrase your question differently

3 because I cannot simply answer it specifically, since you must know that

4 that question is very difficult to answer.

5 Q. Are you saying that the military and political leadership was

6 simply merged in Central Bosnia? Is that your evidence?

7 A. The HVO government, I never managed to really clarify all those

8 elements. But when one says "the HVO government," or "the HVO," or "the

9 Croat Defence Council," of course it is very complicated at the notional

10 level. I don't know how merged it is or not. But we were satisfied that

11 we had the HVO. And the HVO had its civilian and its military wings. How

12 merged they were, how separated they were, I still am not quite sure

13 today, and I really did not manage to understand it fully --

14 Q. All right.

15 A. -- but I know that it worked.

16 Q. After the worst of the fighting in April was over, the leadership

17 of Central Bosnia announced, didn't it, to the listening and viewing

18 public that the Croats had, as it were, defeated the Muslims. It was

19 presented as a victory.

20 A. I do not recall any such statement; absolutely no statement

21 mentioning the words "victory" or "defeat."

22 Q. The people who were announcing the position of the Croats at that

23 time were Kordic, Blaskic, and probably the man Kostroman as well; do you

24 accept that?

25 A. Yes. In principle, yes. Even though there were other people

Page 24689

1 there, Valenta and, what do you know, other people at the time while I

2 still attended press conferences, and they informed the public about the

3 situation as a whole. Others also did that. But this was the most

4 complete information for the whole region.

5 Q. It was clear to you, was it, that Kordic, Kostroman, and Blaskic

6 represented that merged political-military leadership, didn't they?

7 MR. SAYERS: Your Honour, I object to the form of that question.

8 To be fair to the witness, I think that he said that he did not know

9 whether the HVO, in his view, the civilian and political wings, were

10 merged, and the question intimates that he has actually conceded that they

11 were merged. That's not the case. So I think to be fair to the witness,

12 the question should be rephrased.

13 JUDGE MAY: The question can be put perfectly fairly: Did Kordic,

14 Kostroman, and Blaskic represent a merged political-military leadership?

15 That, of course, is the Prosecution case, and the Prosecutor is entitled

16 to put it.

17 Now, the witness has had time to think. What is the answer to the

18 question?

19 A. My impression is, even though they were physically present and

20 cooperating, they did not [as interpreted] have quite separated spheres of

21 operation, because Kordic would speak about the political situation,

22 Blaskic about the military one. But naturally you have all the material

23 and you could follow these sessions. So it was quite clear when I

24 attended those sessions, that was how it was. And then Kostroman would

25 appear for operative matters, and Valenta as the deputy prime minister,

Page 24690

1 and each one would cover his own area of work in those sessions, while I

2 followed those sessions, those press conferences.

3 THE INTERPRETER: Sorry. Interpreter's mistake. "They did have

4 quite separate spheres of operation," not "did not have."

5 MR. NICE:

6 Q. A couple of other matters of detail. Can you --

7 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, we noticed a substantial mistake in the

8 transcript. It is page 32, line 24. There is the quotation. "They did

9 not have quite separate ..." The witness clearly said, "They did have

10 quite separated ..." There was no negation.

11 MR. NICE: Yes, the interpreter has corrected that already, I

12 think.

13 Q. As the reporter on the ground, Mr. Zirdum, who was responsible for

14 the Vitez truck bomb?

15 A. I am not quite sure, but I think it was a special purpose unit,

16 the Vitezovi. But I heard that very unofficially, very much off the

17 record, and I am not aware of any particular details that I would speak

18 about. But somewhere in the town something was being done, and there are

19 some assumptions -- there were those assumptions from which I drew this

20 conclusion.

21 Q. The bodies from Ahmici that were taken out by lorry before they

22 were eventually buried in Stari Vitez, where did those bodies go before

23 they were buried? You were there. Can you help us?

24 A. Yes, I understand the question. I do not know that. I do know

25 that I was present when one had talk -- there was a hodza from Mahala

Page 24691

1 there, he had come to the negotiations. We, the journalists, were in

2 front of the door but we did not -- we were not able to learn anything.

3 We only learnt about the exchange. So I really don't know about that, and

4 I must say I didn't really give it a thought.

5 Q. You didn't give a thought to the fact that the large number of

6 bodies from Ahmici were in some way collected up by lorry and moved around

7 before they were buried; is that what you're saying?

8 A. Unfortunately, yes, that is what I am saying. You know, you

9 simply don't have time to think about certain things when too many things

10 happen simultaneously and later on, perhaps, you can think about this.

11 But at that time, one simply didn't even try to think where was what

12 because there was simply no time to systematically keep up with all that.

13 Q. The man you spoke of yesterday as not being a strong man, Suad

14 Salkic, why was he taken to Kaonik, a friend of yours?

15 A. I really don't know that he was taken to Kaonik. I think I saw

16 him after the war and gave him some things of his. We did meet but we

17 were never one on one. We never really could discuss it, but I don't know

18 that he was there. And about him, yes, indeed, I should have known. I

19 should have been aware had he been taken to Kaonik. I would have known

20 that.

21 Q. You tell us you were dealing with the prisoners on a regular

22 basis. Why were any of them taken to Kaonik, please? Why was it

23 necessary for the Croats to take their Muslim neighbours to the prison at

24 Kaonik?

25 A. I know very little about Kaonik. It was only in the course of the

Page 24692

1 war that I learned of existence and I understood that they were taking

2 there, those Croat soldiers who had committed some disciplinary

3 transgressions. It was much later that I learned that there was a prison

4 at Kaonik, that there were Mujahedin there. But I found out about that

5 when the exchange of Zivko Totic for those Mujahedin took a place. Then

6 that is where I found out that there was some Mujahedin there. Until that

7 time, I didn't even know of its existence.

8 Q. You told us about the grouping of which Suad Salkic was a member.

9 Do you remember a woman named Vildana Sanjic who was also a member of that

10 group of intellectuals and she was --

11 A. No, not Vildana. Vildana but you got her surname wrong, and I'm

12 not quite sure about it, but there was a Vildana who worked with us at the

13 television at that time when I worked there, the first two months.

14 Q. That's right. And she was sacked because she was a Muslim, wasn't

15 she?

16 A. I guess she must have expressed her solidarity. She was one of

17 that rare category of assistants who expressed their solidarity with me

18 and several journalists, that is, he could stay with those cameramen

19 and --

20 Q. Is it right that she lost her job because she was a Muslim?

21 A. That is not right because it was an experiment then. There wasn't

22 really proper job there. People had not yet -- they did not have their

23 labour contracts yet and it is early, I was still involved in this

24 technical organisation, coordination and such like. And will you just

25 give me precisely the name of Vildana because I've forgotten it, and I

Page 24693

1 hope we are referring to one and the same person.

2 Q. I am referring to the person on the television. You seem to

3 accept that she lost her job, and I'm going to move on.

4 MR. NICE: Your Honour, I think I've only got a couple of

5 questions that I'd like to finish by the break, if that's possible.

6 Q. You were sometimes in the Workers' University HVO press centre;

7 correct?

8 A. I don't understand. It was the information centre.

9 Q. Yes. Do you remember being there on an occasion in April 1993

10 when a precision mechanic had been called in to deal with some machinery

11 and a typewriter at a time when it was thought that the mosque in the

12 village of Preocica had been successfully targeted; do you remember that?

13 A. I do not, and I don't see what does it have to do with the mosque

14 in the village of Preocica. And I don't know you are mentioning March,

15 April. Your question is completely vague, confused, imprecise and --

16 JUDGE MAY: It's not for you to comment. You are here as a

17 witness, Mr. Zirdum, and to give answers. Now, we'll get on more quickly

18 if you simply answer the question.

19 MR. NICE:

20 Q. You see, I'm going to suggest to you that in the circumstances --

21 A. My apologies to the Court and to the Prosecutor, but he really

22 asked me a very complicated and a very confused question and I simply

23 failed to understand it. I am trying to understand it, not to ask you to

24 repeat it, in order to resolve it more quickly.

25 Q. I am suggesting to you that on the occasion that I have

Page 24694

1 identified, you and others were enjoying or glorying in the understanding

2 that the mosque in Preocica had been attacked and that you were overheard

3 in the sentence by a precision mechanic that had been summoned to that

4 building. Do you follow?

5 A. I disagree with that. I have no idea about any mosque in any

6 Preocica being targeted, and I do not think that anyone on my team would

7 rejoice at that. I am talking about my team in the press centre. Perhaps

8 somewhere else in some other centre there may be people who rejoiced and

9 gloated over that but we certainly did not. And especially nobody would

10 gloat over that in front of a mechanic who was of Muslim, Islamic faith.

11 Q. You've spoken about Dr. Mujezinovic. You weren't present when he

12 was spoken, if he was, by Cerkez before he made that television broadcast

13 were you?

14 A. No, I was not there. I did not see them communicate.

15 Q. You cannot say whether he was pressed or pressured into making

16 that broadcast. You simply don't know, do you?

17 A. I cannot say that there was any pressure put on him in my presence

18 in the offices of the press service of those information. I guarantee

19 that there was nothing like that. It was a very civilised and friendly

20 discussion because Marijanovic, my friend and I, we all cooperated. There

21 was no pressure there. Whether there was any pressure before that,

22 whether he'd been anywhere before that and if he talked to anyone else, I

23 don't know that.

24 MR. NICE: Thank you.

25 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, just one simple question in order to

Page 24695

1 clarify one thing which was -- I'm sorry, just a short question more to

2 clarify one issue.

3 Re-examined by Mr. Kovacic:

4 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Zirdum, at the very beginning of your

5 cross-examination, you were asked about the detention of Muslims and

6 non-detention of Croats. You do not have to give us any value judgements

7 but please try to answer me as briefly as possible. In your opinion, on

8 the 16th of April, who was it that attacked the town?

9 A. In my view -- well, I can't do it briefly, but the Muslim forces

10 from the direction of Zenica seemed to have already been prepared, but in

11 that part, they must have been attacking already.

12 Q. You mentioned shelling, and the shells were coming from where?

13 A. That's it, shells were coming from Vjetrenica, tank shells were

14 coming from Vjetrenica for several days, and I remember that resolutely.

15 Q. But what forces were defending the town? What army was there?

16 A. It was the -- the town was defended by citizens of Vitez, I simply

17 know that for several days, there were calls being sent, I mean, "Whoever

18 can come, come."

19 Q. So the defendants of the town were Croats, is it?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Could you think of any reason why, under the circumstances, that

22 the Croats could be imprisoned for the safety of the town?

23 A. No, not in the town.

24 MR. KOVACIC: [Interpretation] Thank you. No further questions,

25 thank you.

Page 24696

1 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Zirdum, that concludes your evidence. Thank you

2 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours, too.

4 JUDGE MAY: We will adjourn now for half an hour. 11.35.

5 [The witness withdrew]

6 --- Recess taken at 11.05 a.m.

7 --- On resuming at 11.35 a.m.

8 [The witness entered court]

9 JUDGE MAY: Before the witness is sworn, there is one matter of

10 the Court's arrangements that I want to deal with. Apparently on Friday

11 there is likely to be some sort of action by fuel truck drivers or truck

12 drivers in The Hague and, as a result, it may well affect the ability of

13 the transport police to get the accused here.

14 We have a hearing in another case which is scheduled for Friday

15 and in view of those difficulties, we are minded to move that hearing to

16 tomorrow afternoon, but I just want to be sure that we can get through

17 this case, what we have in this case, before then.

18 Mr. Kovacic, how many witnesses have you got?

19 MR. KOVACIC: Your Honour, we have just two witnesses left.

20 JUDGE MAY: Just two.

21 MR. KOVACIC: The one which is just here presumably will be

22 relatively short, and the next one is a bit longer but not very.

23 JUDGE MAY: So we should be able to finish comfortably by

24 lunchtime tomorrow.

25 MR. KOVACIC: Certainly, yes.

Page 24697

1 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, that being so, we will adjourn this case

2 then and we'll make arrangements for the other case to be heard at 3.00 on

3 Thursday. Thank you.

4 Yes, let the witness be sworn, please.

5 THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the

6 whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

7 JUDGE MAY: Yes, if you'd like to take a seat.

8 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

9 WITNESS: ZDENKO TIBOLD

10 [Witness answered through interpreter]

11 Examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

12 Q. Good day, Mr. Tibold.

13 A. Good day.

14 Q. On behalf of the Defence of Mario Cerkez, I will conduct your

15 examination-in-chief. Please try to recall the events as best you can

16 that we will discuss and please take into account the needs of the

17 interpreters and wait before answering my questions and speak a little

18 more slowly than usual.

19 Mr. Tibold, please introduce yourself with your full name and the

20 year and place of your birth.

21 A. My name is Zdenko Tibold. I was born on the 3rd of September 1952

22 in Vitez.

23 Q. And have you lived in Vitez all your life?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. You are a Croat by nationality, Roman Catholic?

Page 24698

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. You have dual nationality; you are a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina

3 and of the Republic of Croatia?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And you are a bank clerk by profession?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. At the moment, you are employed in Zagrebacka Banka of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina with its seat in Mostar and there is a branch office in

9 your native town of Vitez?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. You finished high school?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Did you serve in the army in the former JNA?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Did you acquire any rank?

16 A. I was a corporal.

17 Q. Are you a member of a political party?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Which party?

20 A. The HDZ of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

21 Q. Do you hold any post in the political party, any duty?

22 A. Not now.

23 Q. You have two brothers?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. One of your brothers is Dr. Tibold, also from Vitez?

Page 24699

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Page 24700

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tibold, if I'm right, you finished high school in

3 1976?

4 A. In 1973.

5 Q. When did you get your first job?

6 A. In 1976.

7 Q. Can you tell us where you were employed?

8 A. In the bank Privredna Banka Sarajevo, the branch office in Vitez.

9 Q. And since that time in 1976 until today, you have been in the

10 banking business?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. So you are an eyewitness to all the monetary events to say from

13 then until today, both in the former Yugoslavia and today in

14 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. The branch office of the Sarajevo bank in Vitez, it was

17 transformed into the Travnik bank Privredna Banka at one point?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And do you remember who, in 1992, was the director of the branch

20 office in which you were employed in Vitez?

21 A. In 1992, it was Mr. Velimir Didak.

22 Q. What nationality is he?

23 A. A Croat.

24 Q. What was the ethnic makeup of the employees in the bank in which

25 you were employed, the Privredna Banka Travnik?

Page 24701

1 A. Mostly Croats and Muslims, and there were some Serbs as well.

2 Q. Could it be said then that it was a Croatian or a Muslim or some

3 other bank with respect to ethnic composition?

4 A. A bank is a bank.

5 Q. Mr. Tibold, until what time was that branch office operating in

6 Vitez?

7 A. I left it in the beginning of 1992, and it continued operating

8 until approximately the end of that year when there was an explosion.

9 Q. What was damaged in that explosion?

10 A. Well, that explosive device was planted on the outside. It

11 destroyed the whole premises of the bank, and it was very difficult to

12 continue operating in that bank.

13 Q. After that, in fact, the bank closed down?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Were there any other banks at that time operating in the town of

16 Vitez?

17 A. No, there were no banks functioning in Vitez.

18 Q. And how were payments made then when there was no bank; through

19 what institution?

20 A. Well, it was the payment transfer service or the SDK.

21 Q. Tell us, Mr. Tibold, was a police investigation conducted about

22 the explosive device planted in the bank and the damage it caused?

23 A. I assume it was, but I don't know anything about it.

24 Q. I assume then that you do not know whether it was established who

25 perpetrated that attack?

Page 24702

1 A. Not to this day.

2 Q. Tell us, Mr. Tibold, in your banking circles, what did people

3 say? Whose interest was it to plant an explosive device in the bank?

4 A. Well, all the time people said it could have been done by someone

5 who owed the bank money, whether it was a loan or whether it was a current

6 account.

7 Q. Is it true that, in that explosion, the bank documentation, the

8 records were destroyed?

9 A. Most of them, yes, because a fire broke out.

10 Q. Mr. Tibold, you have told us that after this explosion and before

11 that, no other banks operated in Vitez. Was there talk of preparations

12 for the opening of another bank in the town of Vitez?

13 A. Yes. We were working on that, and I was to go over to the

14 Privredna Banka Zagreb, and I did. I left the Privredna Banka Travnik in

15 early 1992, but that bank never actually started work.

16 Q. Mr. Tibold, did that bank already have some premises in Vitez

17 where it was supposed to start operating?

18 A. Yes. The premises were set up and everything was ready for the

19 bank to open up, however, that never happened.

20 Q. Why did it never happen?

21 A. Because of the political options and because of the military

22 activities.

23 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Your Honours, please allow me to

24 explain something before I go on. The witness Tibold arrived in The Hague

25 yesterday evening at about 9.00 p.m. and brought with him two short

Page 24703

1 documents which are relevant for these proceedings and his testimony.

2 These documents, unfortunately, could not be translated in this brief

3 period of time. I would like to adduce them into evidence in these

4 proceedings, and I would ask that they be translated, briefly, by the

5 interpreters and then official translation can be made later. The

6 translating booths have these documents and I think this can be done very

7 quickly.

8 JUDGE MAY: Yes. The document can be put on the ELMO so we can

9 see it.

10 THE INTERPRETER: Counsel must read the documents out loud, or the

11 witness.

12 THE REGISTRAR: This will be document D110/2.

13 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation]

14 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tibold, this is the document you gave me

15 yesterday. We see that it is an order issued by the Vitez -- HVO Vitez

16 Defence office and it was signed by Mr. Marijan Skopljak who was the head

17 of the defence office; is that correct?

18 A. Yes, that's correct.

19 Q. I will now read only the first and second item. It says, "For the

20 needs of the HVO government in Vitez, the premises of the Privredna Banka

21 Zagreb with their seat in Vitez are being temporarily set aside." And

22 item two, "The person responsible for handing over the premises is Zdenko

23 Tibold and for the reception, Josip Silic."

24 Mr. Tibold, very briefly, can you comment on this document? What

25 is this about?

Page 24704

1 A. Well, this is about the handing over of the premises of Zagrebacka

2 Banka for the needs of the defence office of Travnik with its headquarters

3 in Vitez.

4 Q. Thank you. So to put it more simply, these premises were

5 requisitioned for the needs of the defence office; is that correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tibold, after you stopped working in the Travnik

8 Privredna Banka, you did a job on a part-time basis. What did you do?

9 A. Well, I was the treasurer of the HDZ.

10 Q. Very well. Mr. Tibold, can we please go back to the year 1992 at

11 the time when the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina declared its

12 independence. When it declared its independence, did Bosnia and

13 Herzegovina introduce its national currency immediately?

14 A. No.

15 Q. What currency, at that moment, was in use in Bosnia and

16 Herzegovina after the declaration of independence?

17 A. There was the Yugoslav dinar, the Croatian dinar, the German mark

18 and other currencies. But those three were the main ones.

19 Q. The Yugoslav dinar, of course, it is quite clear to us why it

20 remained in use. It was there and there were no possibilities of

21 withdrawing it?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. The German mark is the currency of a quite different country. How

24 did it come about that it was used in Bosnia and Herzegovina?

25 A. The German mark was the only currency that the people of Bosnia

Page 24705

1 and Herzegovina recognised, regardless of whether they were Muslims,

2 Croats, or Serbs.

3 Q. Was the situation the same in the former Yugoslavia before its

4 dissolution?

5 A. Yes, because most people who worked abroad and who came from Vitez

6 and other places, they worked in Germany.

7 Q. Is the situation the same today that the German mark is used in

8 parallel with the official currency?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. You mentioned that the Yugoslav dinar existed as a currency in

11 that area. How did people accept it; was it a currency that was accepted,

12 that was used? What can you say about that?

13 A. The Yugoslav dinar was a currency which remained in the area of

14 Bosnia and Herzegovina and it was used until other currencies turned up;

15 however, the Yugoslav dinar appeared in large quantities so, in fact, you

16 couldn't use it to buy something because inflation was terrible, and

17 everybody avoided the Yugoslav dinar.

18 People who travelled used the German mark because it was the only

19 currency accepted in the western market and those who travelled to Croatia

20 and further on also used the Croatian dinar which was later transformed

21 into the Croatian kuna because it was the only currency that could be used

22 in Croatia to the west.

23 Q. Thank you.

24 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I would now ask the usher ...

25 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D111/2.

Page 24706

1 MR. MIKULICIC: The other side. The other side.

2 Q. [Interpretation] Mr. Tibold, tell us, what sort of note is this?

3 A. This is a note of the Yugoslav state of 1993 for 500 billion

4 dinars.

5 Q. So this was one of the currencies in use in that area; is that

6 right?

7 A. This currency was used in Yugoslavia; as for Bosnia-Herzegovina,

8 it was for smaller amounts.

9 Q. Thank you. Can you help us to understand this enormous sum? What

10 could you buy for it? In general, was that a large value?

11 A. I don't know about Yugoslavia. I think it wasn't. But in

12 Bosnia-Herzegovina, in 1991, 880.000 Yugoslav dinars were equivalent to

13 100 German marks.

14 Q. As inflation grew, did this relationship become even worse?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Thank you. Mr. Tibold, we are still talking about mid-1992. I

17 would ask the registrar -- yes, we have a number. Thank you.

18 So we are talking about the aggression of the JNA and the Bosnian

19 Serb army on the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. The city of Sarajevo was

20 under siege; is that correct?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. In the city of Sarajevo were the government bodies.

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. How was that situation reflected in the dissemination or the

25 distribution of the national currency?

Page 24707

1 A. Well, it was very difficult. It was very difficult to establish

2 any kind of communication or transfer of money.

3 Q. So was that the reason why the German mark was used more and more,

4 and later on the Croatian dinar or kuna?

5 A. Well, everyone in the Vitez municipality and the Lasva River

6 Valley, all enterprises worked independently to preserve the value of

7 their goods or their currency. So the municipality of Travnik at that

8 time issued a voucher which was used on the territory of Travnik, Novi

9 Travnik, and Vitez.

10 Q. Very well. This voucher printed by the municipality, was this

11 regulated by government legislation, or was it a decision on the part of

12 the municipality?

13 A. It was printed by the bank; it was issued by the bank.

14 Q. Within the municipality?

15 A. Yes, within the municipality.

16 Q. This voucher was supposed to replace money as currency for

17 payments.

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. Tell us, Mr. Tibold, you said that the town of Travnik issued

20 vouchers. Were they valid in other towns; for example, in Vitez, in

21 Zenica?

22 A. It was valid on the territory of Vitez but not on the territory of

23 Zenica. Zenica had their own vouchers.

24 Q. Does that mean, in fact, that certain areas or certain towns on

25 the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in fact, had their own vouchers which

Page 24708

1 they used to make payments?

2 A. As far as I know, yes. That was a transitional period.

3 Q. For you as a bank clerk, what sort of situation was this?

4 A. It was ridiculous, I have to admit. May I explain?

5 Q. But very briefly, please. What difficulties did you have, you as

6 an ordinary citizen, in the use of these vouchers and other currencies at

7 that time?

8 A. Well, as a bank clerk I had problems with people who had savings

9 accounts, because they demanded hard currency and there was none

10 available. All we could give them were Yugoslav dinars or vouchers and

11 they could be used only in that area. As time passed by, in 1992 people

12 didn't want vouchers either because they couldn't use them to buy goods,

13 so that those who had large amounts of Yugoslav dinars and vouchers would

14 simply go bankrupt.

15 Q. Mr. Tibold, if you travelled from Vitez to Zenica, you had to have

16 vouchers from Zenica which you could not obtain in Vitez; is that correct?

17 A. That's correct. We had to change them for German marks.

18 Q. So in fact it was more practical to take German marks with you in

19 the first place.

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. Thank you. During all this time, that is to say, 1992, the end of

22 it, and the beginning of 1993, in the Republic of Croatia the currency at

23 the time which was called the dinar and, later on, the kuna, was present,

24 was it not?

25 A. Yes.

Page 24709

1 Q. You've already said that that currency came to your regions for

2 the reasons you've mentioned. Was it accepted, the Croatian kuna, in

3 exchanges, daily exchanges?

4 A. In time, yes, with the passage of time. At the beginning, less so

5 until trade with Croatia began to develop, because we could only obtain

6 goods from Croatia. As transactions increased and traffic increased, the

7 towns that were closer to Croatia, salaries were no longer calculated in

8 dinars but were calculated in kunas or in German marks. I apologise. Not

9 kunas, but Croatian dinars.

10 Q. The kuna was introduced later on; is that right?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Mr. Tibold, according to your recollections and your personal

13 experience as a bank clerk, at any time did any authority in the

14 municipality, or at any other level, bring in provisions according to

15 which just one currency was allowed in transactions?

16 A. No.

17 Q. I should like to ask you to take a look at the last document you

18 gave me yesterday.

19 THE REGISTRAR: This will be Exhibit D112/2.

20 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Thank you.

21 Q. This is a communication issued by the HVO government in Vitez and

22 signed by Ivan Santic, the president of the Vitez HVO; is that correct?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. This communique was issued after a session of the 24th of August,

25 1992, in Vitez; is that correct?

Page 24710

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. I will read item I: "On the territory of the municipality of

3 Vitez, it shall be possible to use in the transfer of payments all

4 currencies, including the Bosnian dinar as currency."

5 Does this correspond to your recollection and your experience at

6 that time, Mr. Tibold?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Mr. Tibold, we heard a few days ago testimony in which a person

9 said that at the Kalem gas pump in Vitez, in the morning gasoline was sold

10 for Bosnian dinars, and in the afternoon the owner refused to sell it for

11 Bosnian dinars but only for German marks. Are you surprised by this?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Were you perhaps yourself a witness to similar events in shops, in

14 banks, and in general where money was used?

15 A. Everyone in the area of the Lasva area used the currency they

16 wanted to use, everything was in use. I have to admit that when the

17 Yugoslav dinar was changed to the Bosnian dinar, the ratio was 1:1, later

18 it was 1:3.

19 Q. Very well. The Bosnian dinar, after being introduced at the end

20 of 1992, remained a legal tender up until what time?

21 A. Up until the time it was changed to the convertible mark.

22 Q. You said in your introduction that, despite that, the German mark

23 continued to be a parallel source of payment; is that right?

24 A. Yes.

25 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] I have no further questions for

Page 24711

1 you, Mr. Tibold. Thank you for your testimony.

2 A. Thank you.

3 MR. NAUMOVSKI: [Interpretation] Your Honour, the Kordic Defence

4 has no questions to put to this witness. Thank you.

5 Cross-examined by Mr. Scott:

6 Q. Good afternoon, sir.

7 A. Good afternoon.

8 Q. Sir, you, according to this statement that we were provided a

9 short time ago, you are a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina, also hold

10 citizenship in the Republic of Croatia; is that correct?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. And how long have you been a citizen of the Republic of Croatia?

13 A. Since 1994.

14 Q. And how did you go obtaining that citizenship?

15 A. I obtained all the necessary documents for citizenship to be

16 granted me.

17 Q. And where did you apply for this citizenship?

18 A. I gave the power of attorney to my aunt who lived in Banja Luka

19 to -- who lived in Zagreb, I'm sorry, to present the papers in my name.

20 Q. In Zagreb?

21 A. Yes, yes.

22 Q. And when did you first become a member of the HDZ political party?

23 A. In 1990.

24 Q. So about the time that the party was first established; would that

25 be correct?

Page 24712

1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And during what time did you serve as treasurer of the HDZ?

3 A. The period, well, not throughout, but I was the secretary for a

4 time and in 1991, 1992, the treasurer.

5 Q. When did you stop being treasurer of the HDZ, please?

6 A. 1994.

7 Q. So you held that position essentially throughout the armed

8 conflict with the Muslims; isn't that correct?

9 A. Except for the time when there was combat during the war.

10 Q. All right. But just in terms of the dates, and I won't belabour

11 this other than this final question, you indicated -- I believe your

12 testimony was, sir, that you held that position starting sometime in 1991,

13 1992 and continued in that position until sometime in 1994; is that

14 correct?

15 A. That's correct, yes.

16 Q. Now, in addition to being treasurer, there was a time, was there

17 not, when you were the secretary of the HDZ party in Vitez; is that

18 correct?

19 A. That's correct, yes.

20 Q. And do you remember, sir, attending a meeting, a large meeting of

21 the HDZ/HVO leadership in Travnik in April of 1993?

22 A. No.

23 Q. You don't remember that?

24 A. I did not attend.

25 Q. You did not. All right. Were you the secretary of the Vitez HDZ

Page 24713

1 at that time?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And you don't recall -- well, sir, let me just ask you...

4 MR. SCOTT: Perhaps the usher could put before the witness Exhibit

5 Z2631 with the witness having the B/C/S version in front of him and the

6 English being put on the ELMO, please. I apologise for the short notice

7 to the usher, but unfortunately we are all operating under short notice

8 concerning this witness.

9 Your Honour, forgive me, it may have been mismarked or it may be

10 631. The marking looks like a "2" but it is a "Z". My mistake, Z631.

11 Yes, if the witness could be shown the B/C/S version and the English

12 version put on the ELMO, please.

13 Q. Sir, I show this to you only to see if it might refresh your

14 recollection. These are the minutes of a meeting in Travnik on the 8th of

15 April 1993, being described in the first paragraph under the date as

16 minutes taken at the meeting of the presidents and vice-presidents of

17 municipal HVOs, et cetera, et cetera, secretaries of municipal boards.

18 And if I could -- and I'm not sure, I can't tell you whether the B/C/S

19 pages correspond exactly, but if you would turn to -- I'll see if it

20 does -- if you will turn to the second page of the B/C/S version, and for

21 the Court and counsel, the third page of the English, the top of the third

22 page of the English version, I guess, for the ELMO.

23 Do you see there, sir, that there is - admittedly the spelling of

24 the last name is T-i-b-o-l-a, otherwise, without the -- except for the A,

25 your last name, and your first name located there, described as, in fact,

Page 24714

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2

3

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8

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13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

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18

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Page 24715

1 the secretary of the Vitez HDZ. Do you see that, sir?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. All right. Now, allowing for the possibility that it could, in

4 fact, be a different name or it could be a typing error, does this refresh

5 your recollection that you were, in fact, at this meeting on the 8th of

6 April, 1993?

7 A. I did not attend that meeting.

8 Q. Did you recall getting notice of it? Do you recall anything about

9 the circumstances of that meeting being called apparently by a steering

10 committee including, on the first page, Colonel Dario Kordic?

11 A. I am not aware of this meeting, and I was not present at it.

12 Q. Very well. Now, sir, very briefly, can you tell the Court what

13 banks, the names of the banks that you have been employed at in that --

14 since about 1992. You've mentioned various banks experience, especially

15 in part two of your statement, but it's not exactly clear. You mentioned

16 at -- let me start over again, please, forgive me.

17 You mentioned, for instance, that one time you were a bank clerk

18 in something called the -- I'll probably pronounce this wrong --

19 Zagrebacka Banka BiH. Do you see that?

20 A. That's where I am now.

21 Q. All right. And what banks then, using that as an example, can you

22 just give to the Court the names of the banks where you have been employed

23 during, let's say during the 1992, 1993, 1994 time period?

24 A. The first bank I worked for was the Privredna Banka Sarajevo in

25 Travnik, and branch office Vitez. When that bank was reorganised, the

Page 24716

1 Privredna Banka of Travnik was set up and the branch office in Vitez.

2 When I left the Privredna Banka Travnik, I moved to the Croatian bank of

3 Mostar in Mostar, and I am now in the Zagrebacka Banka BH.

4 Q. When was that?

5 A. At the beginning of 1992, I left the Privredna Banka or commercial

6 bank of Travnik.

7 Q. All right.

8 A. In April, the Croatian Bank of Mostar was established in 1993 and

9 a month or a month and a half ago, the Zagrebacka Banka of BH was

10 established.

11 Q. Just now? Just a month and a half ago now; is that what you're

12 saying?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. Now, my question to you is: What does it mean that this was --

15 this bank that you joined that was based in Mostar, it was the Croatian

16 bank. In what sense can you tell the Court was it a Croatian bank as

17 opposed to a Bosnian bank or a Yugoslavian bank? How was it a Croatian

18 bank?

19 A. The bank is a bank, but its name was that. That was what its name

20 was.

21 Q. Well, did it have an association with perhaps a banking company or

22 a financial institution in Croatia or in Zagreb, or why the name Croatian

23 bank?

24 A. That bank was founded with the re-organisation of the Privredna

25 Banka or commercial bank of Zagreb, and it was an independent autonomous

Page 24717

1 bank in Bosnia-Herzegovina.

2 Q. Sir, my question to you is this: Since that one bank, the bank in

3 Travnik was reorganised, as you've told us about, is it fair to say that

4 ever since that time, all the banks which you have been employed at have

5 been, using your terminology, banks called Croatian banks or banks with a

6 home office or their base in Croatia or in Zagreb?

7 A. The Privredna Banka of Zagreb had its head office in Zagreb. The

8 Hrvatska Bank of Mostar in Mostar, the Zagrebacka Banka also now has its

9 headquarters in Mostar.

10 Q. And when was that bank in Mostar then established again?

11 A. Which bank?

12 Q. The one that we have been discussing as the Croatian bank, the

13 Bank of Croatia.

14 A. On the 1st of April, 1993.

15 Q. Sir, you've told us a lot about the financial currency situation

16 in Bosnia during 1992 and 1993. Let me ask you, if some additional or

17 alternative currency was needed with the breakup of the former Yugoslavia,

18 why didn't you just continue - not just you, but the Croat community in

19 general, and others - why did you not just continue using the

20 Deutschemark, which by all accounts was in circulation and widely used?

21 Why did you not simply continue using the Deutschemark as opposed to

22 introducing the Croatian state currency?

23 A. There weren't enough German marks.

24 Q. These Croatian dinars, which later became kuna, where was this

25 currency printed?

Page 24718

1 A. The Croatian dinar, in the Croatian state.

2 Q. How did this currency come into circulation, then? How was it

3 brought to Bosnia?

4 A. Through trade. If somebody wanted to purchase goods, they had to

5 take German marks with them. In Croatia there was a decision taken that

6 you couldn't trade with German marks, that all currencies had to be

7 exchanged for the Croatian dinar. So that those who had some Croatian

8 dinars left took them back with them to Central Bosnia.

9 Q. Sir, is it not a fact that in addition to whatever currency may

10 have come into -- that is, Croatian currency that may have come into the

11 country of Bosnia through trade, that in fact the substantial majority of

12 that currency came into Bosnia by large shipments of currency, simply

13 shipped and put into circulation from Croatia, put into circulation in

14 Bosnia; isn't that true, sir?

15 A. No.

16 Q. The vouchers that you have discussed, in reality, is it not true,

17 sir, that these were vouchers that were created and carried out or used

18 under the supervision and control of the central BiH government; isn't

19 that true?

20 A. No. The vouchers were printed by the banks.

21 Q. Well, my question wasn't how they were printed. But wasn't that

22 system put into place under the supervision and control of the legitimate

23 central government of BiH, Bosnia-Herzegovina?

24 A. I'm not aware of that. And that money in time became obsolete

25 because you couldn't trade with them, or lost value.

Page 24719

1 Q. Isn't it true, sir, that during the time that first the Croatian

2 dinar and then later the kuna began to be used in Bosnia, that that itself

3 was a new currency? It was something that had only been created in

4 Croatia, at least most recently, around that same time, in 1992; isn't

5 that true?

6 A. Yes, that's true. The Croatian dinars came from Croatia later,

7 and they were worth something because you could purchase goods with them.

8 Q. All right. I understand, sir. But my question to you is this:

9 The Croatian dinar was itself a new and, at the time, untested currency,

10 wasn't it?

11 A. It was just used in the area of Hrvatska, on the territory of

12 Croatia, and it was a transition from the Yugoslav dinar to the Croatian

13 dinar.

14 Q. In your statement - I guess you don't have it in front of you, but

15 for the Court and counsel, I'm looking at paragraph 3.5 - there's a

16 statement that says: "At the same time in Croatia, the national currency

17 (Croatian dinar, later replaced with a kuna) became stronger."

18 Now, when you say "at the same time," can you tell us what time

19 you are talking about?

20 A. Unless I'm mistaken, it was 1991.

21 Q. And that was the first time that that currency had been

22 established, even in Croatia. Unless perhaps there was some other

23 historical usage. But in modern times, is it not the case that that was a

24 brand new currency, first introduced by the Croatian government in 1991

25 and 1992?

Page 24720

1 A. Yes.

2 MR. SCOTT: Your Honours, in the interest of time, I'll simply

3 refer to some documents and put the question to the witness in this way:

4 Q. The Court has in evidence, and the witness can be told, Exhibit

5 Z134.1, about the introduction of the Croatian dinar in Kiseljak

6 municipality on the 15th of June, 1992; Z134.2, again about the use of

7 dinars in June 1992; Exhibit Z341.6, a decree of Herceg-Bosna on the 22nd

8 of September, 1992 about transactions in Croatian dinars; and there's

9 others. But I think the point can be made this way:

10 Sir, isn't it true that the imposition or establishment of the use

11 of the Croatian dinar in Bosnia around, approximately, the middle of 1992

12 was about at the same time that that currency was first created in

13 Croatia; and in fact, its introduction into Bosnia was essentially part of

14 a nationalistic policy?

15 A. No.

16 Q. You indicate, sir, in paragraph 3.6, that in fact by the latter

17 part of 1992, the Central Bosnian government in Sarajevo had established

18 the BiH dinar, and at the end of that paragraph, 3.6, you state: "At the

19 end of 1992 and in the beginning of 1993, the BiH dinar started to

20 circulate also in other parts of the BiH. All the currencies mentioned

21 above were in use at that time."

22 Is that correct? Do you stand by that statement, sir?

23 A. At the end of 1992, the BH dinar appeared as well, and it was

24 exchanged against the Yugoslav dinar, so that all currencies existed in

25 1992 and were in use.

Page 24721

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Page 24722

1 Q. So the situation that existed at that time, then, at least by late

2 1992, in terms of currency in Bosnia-Herzegovina, was that, one, there was

3 the Deutschemark, which had been widely circulated and used for some time

4 by all ethnic groups; secondly, there was the officially established

5 currency of the government, of the legitimate government, in Sarajevo; and

6 those currencies both were in circulation and in use; isn't that correct?

7 A. The currency from Sarajevo couldn't be used because you couldn't

8 exchange it for goods. It was only used in the territory of Central

9 Bosnia if people wanted to do so.

10 Q. In 3.6 you said: "... initially circulated in Sarajevo, Zenica,

11 Bihac, and Tuzla," and at the end of that paragraph, you say, "... it also

12 was circulating in other parts of BiH. All the currencies ... were in

13 use." Now, is that the truth?

14 A. The times and periods when the BH dinars were distributed into the

15 towns, from Bihac to Sarajevo, I couldn't really tell you how that was

16 done. However, on the territory of Central Bosnia, that currency appeared

17 at the end of 1992 and it was in circulation.

18 Q. Do you recall, sir, that there was various legislation enacted by

19 the Herceg-Bosna government, if you will, in Mostar, creating such things

20 as custom duties, creating such things as taxes, all of which were stated

21 in terms of Croatian dinars for purposes of collecting these taxes,

22 duties, and custom excises?

23 A. Yes, because the Croatian dinar appeared before the BH dinar did.

24 Q. Well, sir, are you suggesting that there was a time when the

25 Herceg-Bosna government withdrew that policy and said, "Well, we won't use

Page 24723

1 Croatian dinars anymore because now we have a national currency," the

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina government?

3 A. That came later on.

4 Q. All right. Well, we'll come to that momentarily. Sir, I'll put

5 it to you again, isn't it a fact that the use of the Croatian dinar, later

6 the kuna, was a policy decision heavily personally endorsed and promoted

7 by President Tudjman in Zagreb and passed on, if you will, through his

8 directions and the arms of the HDZ political party to be also implemented

9 in at least the Herceg-Bosna parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina as an indication

10 of statehood?

11 A. I must answer no to that.

12 Q. So you would disagree. If President Tudjman was described as

13 having stated that the use of the kuna was an important expression of the

14 Croatian nation-building process, would you disagree with that statement

15 then?

16 A. Yes. I cannot agree with it because all the documents that we

17 used were entitled the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 Q. Well, can you tell me some -- can you point to us, sir, can you --

19 more importantly not to me, but the Court, any document in which the

20 legitimate government of Bosnia-Herzegovina accepted the Croatian dinar as

21 legitimate currency to be used on its territory? You just said that it

22 was done by the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. Can you point us, sir, to

23 any acceptance of Croatian dinar currency as legitimate currency by that

24 government?

25 A. In the Dayton Agreements, the following currencies were used: The

Page 24724

1 kuna, the German mark and the Bosnian dinar. They were legal tender on

2 the territory of the Federation.

3 Q. I understand the Dayton Agreement, sir, at least parts of it. But

4 that was not my question. Can you point the Judges, can you point the

5 Court to any documentation, any legislation, any decisions by the central

6 government in Sarajevo accepting and saying, "We accept the Croatian dinar

7 as one of the official currencies on the territory of

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina." That's my question.

9 A. The central government in Sarajevo forgot that Central Bosnia

10 existed. The documents from the central government, we did not receive

11 any documents from the central government.

12 Q. All right, sir. Do you recall a time when the Constitutional

13 Court of Bosnia-Herzegovina declared this entity Herceg-Bosna, first the

14 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna and later the Croatian Republic of

15 Herceg-Bosna, that the constitutional court declared those entities

16 unconstitutional? Do you recall that?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. You also recall that, as part of those decisions, the use of the

19 Croatian dinar was also ruled invalid and not a legitimate currency?

20 A. I don't want you to replace these. The Croatian dinar existed in

21 Central Bosnia and was used just like every other currency. There was no

22 order that any particular and sole currency be used exclusively.

23 Q. Let me just repeat my last question, sir, and then we'll move on,

24 I'm almost finished. The question to you is this: Do you know that the

25 decision of the constitutional court not only invalidated the entity

Page 24725

1 Herceg-Bosna but invalidated the use of the Croatian dinar? And either

2 you know or you don't know. It's a simple question; if you don't know you

3 just say you don't know.

4 A. No, no.

5 Q. Sir, is it not the case that, even after the creation of the

6 Muslim/Croat Federation, the Croat part of that Federation, or at least

7 some parts of it, continued to resist and refused to recognise the

8 Bosnia-Herzegovina dinar as legitimate currency in the territory of what

9 was claimed to be Herceg-Bosna?

10 A. All currencies were in circulation.

11 Q. Do you know a man named Obrad Piljak?

12 A. I do.

13 Q. And in October 1994, was he the governor of the Muslim/Croat

14 Federation National Bank?

15 A. I cannot answer that.

16 Q. Well, do you have any recollection that on about the 4th of

17 October, 1994, Mr. Piljak took the position that the Bosnia-Herzegovina

18 dinar had no chance of becoming the official currency of the Croatian

19 Republic of Herceg-Bosna and that the only currency that would be

20 recognised on the territory of Herceg-Bosna was the Croatian kuna and the

21 German mark?

22 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] With all due respect, Your

23 Honours, I have to interfere because this question goes beyond the time

24 frame notified by the indictment and also goes beyond the scope of the

25 examination-in-chief.

Page 24726

1 MR. SCOTT: If I can just respond briefly, Your Honour.

2 JUDGE MAY: Yes.

3 MR. SCOTT: Your Honour, the Prosecution's point is that that was

4 a continuation in one and the same policy that had been in place since at

5 least 1992. The witness himself a few moments ago made a reference to

6 Dayton. The Prosecution's point is this was a continuous unbroken policy

7 that, even after Dayton, the Bosnian Croat position was that they would

8 not recognise the BH dinar. I ask it only for that final purpose.

9 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Tibold, you've heard what the Prosecutor says. Do

10 you agree with that or not?

11 A. I do not. The people of Central Bosnia was economically depleted

12 and recognised only the currency which they could use to buy their basic

13 necessities. Any travel with the Bosnian dinar ended up in the territory

14 of Herzegovina. You could go no further with that currency, not to

15 mention Croatia or Europe.

16 MR. SCOTT:

17 Q. The final question: Sir, I put it to you that, in fact, that is

18 not the case that. I'll give you one more chance to respond to this. I

19 put it to you that that was not the case, that it continued to be the case

20 that the Bosnian Croat part of the Federation that they would not - I

21 mean, eventually they may have, but in 1994 they continued to refuse to

22 recognise the Bosnia-Herzegovinian dinar on the territory of Herceg-Bosna

23 as any official currency; isn't that true?

24 A. No, it is not. I have to answer this. The central government in

25 Sarajevo, after Dayton, was to correct the amount of dinars in the

Page 24727

1 territory of Federation, but this was never done. And that is why this

2 dinar could not be widely embraced. I wouldn't say that it wasn't in

3 circulation; it was. It replaced the convertible mark which is now in use

4 in -- throughout the Federation and there are no problems.

5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, sir, no further questions, Your Honour.

6 MR. MIKULICIC: [Interpretation] Very briefly, Your Honours.

7 Re-examined by Mr. Mikulicic:

8 Q. Mr. Tibold, you were asked what bank you worked for at present and

9 you told us Zagrebacka Banka, Zagreb Bank BH. Is it true that Zagrebacka

10 Banka is an international banking institution which is quoted on the

11 London Stock Exchange?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Is it true that Zagrebacka Banka has its branches in different

14 countries, not Croatia alone?

15 A. I suppose so.

16 Q. For a while, you work for Privredna Banka Zagreb, Zagreb

17 Commercial Bank. It is also true that it had its branches in various

18 European countries and in the United States?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And you also worked for Hrvatska Banka, Croatian Bank Shareholding

21 Society Mostar. Did this bank come from Croatia or did it originate in

22 Bosnia-Herzegovina?

23 A. That bank is Bosnia-Herzegovinian bank, that is, it originated in

24 the Federation, and it covered the area from Tuzla, Sarajevo, Travnik,

25 Bihac. All the pensions from Croatia or Europe were paid through our bank

Page 24728

1 as of 1994.

2 Q. Very well, thank you. It was put to you, Mr. Tibold, that the

3 central government in Sarajevo had organised the printing of vouchers that

4 you told us about. If that were so, would those vouchers be valid

5 throughout the BH and not only the territory of some towns?

6 A. Quite so, and it is proof that banks were autonomous, or rather

7 that it was.

8 Q. Or rather that it was not organised by the central government, is

9 it?

10 A. Quite so.

11 Q. Today, convertible mark is broadly or generally-accepted legal

12 tender in the Federation, isn't it?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. In all the other currencies that were in circulation in that area,

15 have they been invalidated or are they still in circulation?

16 A. Except for the Yu dinar, the others are in circulation.

17 Q. Does it mean that in Central Bosnia, the Croatian kuna is still in

18 circulation there?

19 A. Yes, it is.

20 Q. And the German mark?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And does the federal government try to put an end to the

23 circulation of those two currencies?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Thank you, Mr. Tibold. I have no further questions.

Page 24729

1 JUDGE MAY: That concludes your evidence, Mr. Tibold. Thank you

2 for coming to the International Tribunal to give it. You are free to go.

3 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Thank you, Your Honours.

4 [The witness withdrew]

5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kovacic, we'll have your next witness tomorrow,

6 and that will be the last one this week.

7 MR. KOVACIC: Yes, sir.

8 JUDGE MAY: You have, I hope, a full programme for the next two

9 weeks.

10 MR. KOVACIC: Hopefully we do. I mean, so far we don't have any

11 information that somebody is having a problem or something. We've added a

12 couple of reserves, so even if somebody is not appearing, we will have

13 reserves.

14 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Well, you should, if you can, have at least ten

15 available.

16 MR. KOVACIC: That's exactly what we demanded. Indeed, I think we

17 demanded 11, if I'm not wrong now.

18 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Thank you very much.

19 We'll adjourn now until half past nine tomorrow.

20 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.53 p.m.,

21 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 14th day of

22 September, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.

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